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Oral history interview with Herman Goldberg

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.A.0456.3 | RG Number: RG-50.429.0003

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    Oral history interview with Herman Goldberg
    Transcript

    There is no transcript available for this track

    For over a month.
    That's fun.
    Yeah.
    How did exhibition baseball in the 1936 Olympics come about?
    Are you ready for the answer now?
    Yes.
    Exhibition baseball in the 1936 Olympics
    really started because there was an American committee
    on baseball that was pushing very hard for baseball to be
    introduced and attached to the Olympics.
    The number of baseball players in the world
    were limited pretty much to Central American teams,
    to all the American teams, of course,
    all South African teams.
    The kinds of athletes who got started early through films,
    through television, and began to play at a very early age.
    It really got introduced because frankly,
    and I don't take this as a compliment for myself,
    because of Herman Goldberg, who was
    in charge of developing baseball in the country of Italy.
    OK, but I want to go back to Berlin, because--
    Oh, yes.
    --that really needs to be our focus.
    Please.
    So the American Olympic Committee
    decided that they were going to try to promote baseball?
    They were going to try to promote.
    Who came to this decision?
    Judge JL Hoffman of Cincinnati, Ohio
    was the one who headed the group that
    pushed very hard for baseball to be an Olympic sport.
    Also, the American Olympic committees
    wanted to see baseball in the Olympics.
    They had seen ski they had seen all the other sports,
    and they really wanted to see baseball in them.
    And it came about because the committees
    of the various sports finally agreed
    that it would be a good thing for American baseball
    to be on the calendar.
    And as far as I can tell that's when it started because I began
    to get mail, I began to get my first pieces of information
    about the possibility of baseball tournament being held.
    So you must have been pretty exciting to be in this early.
    It was very exciting because well, first, the stadium
    was very large, 125,000 people watching a baseball series.
    Unheard of, unheard of before.
    Most of the baseball teams in America, 40,000, 50,000,
    60,000, maybe, but 125,000, who ever heard of such a thing?
    You heard of it in Berlin, Germany for the first time
    and it was promoted by the small group of 28 American baseball
    players.
    There were 28 of us assigned to play a series of exhibitions
    against each other and then to go out into the countryside
    and demonstrate baseball to schools, to colleges,
    to many German institutions how it's played,
    what the difference is between baseball and soccer, what
    the rules were, how the umpires played the game.
    It was done because of America, and I
    was very proud to be part of the group that
    kept pushing without pushing.
    We kept encouraging, encouraging, demonstrating.
    This is how left-handed first baseman behave,
    this is how right-handed pitchers do this.
    If you are left-handed, this is how it's done.
    And we put it on the map.
    What was the reaction when you were
    playing these games in Berlin?
    What was the audience reaction?
    The audience reaction was very poor, very poor.
    They didn't like the game, they didn't know the game.
    The diamond, the baseball diamond
    was never laid out like a diamond.
    They took a 4-inch white silky tape
    and they pressed it into the grass
    and they made a diamond out of it for baseball.
    But they never actually made a baseball field, never.
    It caught hold to some extent, not to such great extent
    as in other countries, especially Central America.
    But it became a vivid activity because it came from America.
    A lot of the kids wanted very much to know more
    about America.
    And sports were very important to them too.
    But the audience wasn't excited.
    The audience was not excited because the pace of baseball,
    much slower than soccer.
    In soccer, the ball is moving, moving, moving, moving,
    moving all the time and the kids are kicking in
    and kicking and then kicking in and circling
    and they're beating out the other guy.
    Whereas, in the other sports, you play hard, we jump hard,
    you run hard, you do all of the things yourself.
    But in baseball, you're part of a team
    and it's necessary to understand that.
    And the crowds at the baseball fields
    were 100,000, not 125,000.
    Now, let me ask you a few questions about the period
    before you went over to Berlin.
    And how much did you know at that time about what
    was going on in Nazi Germany?
    I knew less than I guess I am told
    I should have known by many people who asked me
    how come you went to Germany when this was going on?
    The number of Jewish athletes were 8 or 9 out of 328.
    The number of Jewish athletes who made the team and then
    quit 3 or 4 of those.
    Knowledge about what was going on with Hitler beginning
    to become more close to us.
    One of the most telling experiences
    that I had personally, we lived in a small cottage.
    Mine happened to be named Brandenburg cottage
    because Hitler had charged money to all
    the residents of Brandenburg to pay for his cottage,
    and then another group paid for their named cottage,
    another group paid for this.
    And I can recall very vividly the concern
    I had when I went down and I saw a big chain
    at the basement door of our village.
    There were 28 players who lived in the Brandenburg, Dorf
    in our village.
    And what I saw in the rear of the cottage
    was a door and another door and then a chain.
    And I opened the chain and I started to walk downstairs
    in the bottom of the basement.
    And there was a big cavernous area,
    I didn't know what it was for, but I sure soon
    found out that it was for Panzer tanks, German tanks.
    Because what they did was declare the Olympic Dorf
    the West Point of Germany.
    And the athletes and the military Chiefs
    were housed with the Olympic athletes were housed
    after the Olympics were over.
    And I was told by a woman who took care of that building,
    raus, raus, raus, get out of there, get out of there,
    get out of there.
    She didn't want me looking down in the basement.
    I didn't know what was down there,
    but it turned out that it was large enough, the cellar
    or the basement, whatever you want to call it.
    In my cottage, you find these in picture material
    that was brought to the studio today.
    You will find structures that looked like resorts,
    but when you walk down there, cavernous, they're empty.
    The thick, the cement was about 10,
    12, 15 inches thick and that couldn't
    be for just a car or a Jeep or a truck,
    something big had to be in a basement that
    had floors this thick, you never saw such thick floors.
    And it turned out that, that became
    the West Point of Germany.
    At what point did you realize this was what this was?
    I realized what it was after I was in Germany
    and after I had seen enough of the activity that
    led to the early movement of labor camp people
    into army men, and from boy scouts into young soldiers.
    And from ordinary men with ordinary credentials
    carrying shovels, dressed in regular clothes,
    but carrying shovels ready to clean out
    as soon as the American athletes left,
    ready to clean out what they could from there to get
    it ready for the army.
    So you saw this as you were departing?
    I saw this about halfway there.
    I would say about four weeks.
    Four weeks before we left, I saw it.
    And they were very strict, very angry because I
    was the only one who went down to the basement.
    And it was just the happenchance walking down
    a flight of stairs, removing a chain,
    and being yelled at by the German hausfrau and houseman
    who didn't like what they saw.
    I'm an American down on that property that
    was going to become a Panzer tank unit as
    soon as the games were over.
    You stayed in Germany for how long after the Olympics?
    About two weeks.
    So I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused.
    When you said you saw people coming in
    with shovels getting ready to transform the Olympics--
    Yes.
    This was while you were over there for the Olympics?
    Yes.
    And again, the materials we found in our beds,
    they were very large books marked Berlin, just
    the name Berlin on the outside.
    And in that book were pictures of men marching in parade,
    but they weren't equipped with army uniforms.
    They were equipped with regular clothes, with work clothes,
    with seemingly baskets, and then shovels on the shoulder
    and they were walking that way.
    And they were walking this way, this way, this way
    through that whole area there.
    And what we found out was that they were not only being
    prepared for their part in the Olympics,
    but some were already on the grounds
    ready to be instructed in how to go ahead and fill
    in the tanks that were going on.
    You said there were books that would say Berlin or boxes?
    There were boxes of books very, very large books.
    With photographs of the Polish?
    Yes.
    On the outside, it just said Berlin, one word, that's all.
    And we turned pages and you saw pictures of the army
    and you turn more.
    There was one on everybody's bed, your propaganda material.
    And it was on everybody's bed and nobody
    gave them up because you were intrigued.
    We were reading them, what is all this about?
    So I began to learn more about Hitler and Goebbels
    and some of the others after I had turned pages
    and noted that the Olympics were for other purposes
    than storage.
    But how odd this is that they would leave this for you
    to see?
    How what?
    Odd this is that they would leave this for you--
    How?
    --to see-- odd.
    How odd?
    And well, I would say it would be stupid, first.
    Odd, yes.
    An open door down to a basement that had no use other than
    for storage of large tanks and materials,
    that's how big they were.
    So before you went to Berlin, you
    didn't know too much about Nazi Germany.
    That's correct.
    Now, there was some movement in the United States in regard
    to the boycott, were you aware of that?
    I was aware of some of the activities that
    were going on throughout the United
    States and different parts.
    There were programs which displayed
    the feeling about Germany, what was happening,
    what was going on, Hitler's preparation.
    The activity going on in the fields,
    in the manufacturing areas, the building, the construction,
    all of those things were apparently going on.
    Also, the American athletes and all other country
    had its athletes separated by action.
    And by that I mean by summer sports, winter sports,
    different kinds of activities trying to separate them.
    And you could see that if you opened the doors to look
    into places and the houseman and the hausfrau caught you,
    you'd get yelled at.
    But they didn't do anything, they
    didn't want to hurt anybody, and they
    didn't want to give away some of their secrets about their non
    relations with the United States.
    That's one of them.
    I think first time, he ought to be
    aware of what is the surface on a courage game.
    And if he has another chap, we should have the chat,
    we should have the chap we should not
    be afraid to have someone here telling us
    how he or she feels about what's going on.
    You may not get it all so smoothly.
    You may or you may and you have to work it out
    to find out what is going on that is happening
    with the Olympics that you are part of,
    yet you're really not part of because somebody else is
    running it now?
    And you're someone else in a khaki uniform
    ready to run for the next period of three or four weeks.
    I am not sure what else I can say on that particular topic.
    I may have messed it up.
    No, no, you didn't mess anything up.
    But I was really just trying to get a sense
    of before you went to Berlin.
    Yeah, all right.
    Excuse me one minute.
    Sure.
    They have some questions they want to air in your experiences
    in Berlin.
    So--
    Yes.
    --I do want to just repeat the question, we're rolling over,
    about this effort for a boycott in the United States,
    were you aware of it?
    Yes, I was somewhat aware of.
    The press gave some space to the problems in Germany.
    Not full space, not full description
    of what might be going on underneath the table.
    It wasn't that kind of a fullness of expression,
    but there was enough information coming
    because Hitler was beginning to make demands which
    were so great and impossible that you had
    to have a feeling that you were into something that was going
    to be very, very rough.
    Was there a talk about a boycott,
    about not going to the games?
    There was some talk going about it.
    Yes, there was.
    And a lot of the talk was directed
    at the president of the American Olympic
    Committee, who I think gave very little preliminary credence
    to it.
    But he wanted to see what was happening
    and he was an all time pole vaulter from Yale University
    and he headed the American Olympic Committee,
    behaved in such a way that eight or nine of us who were Jewish
    or were not in the games.
    I was there because I was working
    with the demonstration group, not a competitive group
    at that time.
    We were striving to teach enough skills so that they would
    say next time around we want a baseball team,
    we want a baseball team.
    And it didn't happen that way.
    So you were allowed to play in Berlin because you were
    in a non-competitive sport?
    I think that would be one reason that the American Olympic
    Committee chairman, Norman Armitage,
    did not have any feeling against me or against Jews
    that he was visibly going to show.
    Did you think before going to Berlin as a Jew
    that maybe you shouldn't go?
    Not for one minute.
    Absolutely not one minute.
    I talked with a number of the sports leaders
    in our local area in Brooklyn, New York.
    I talked with the coaches at boys high school
    and I told them what the goals were.
    And I was not discouraged, I was not encouraged, I was just say,
    well, here's your chance to learn something.
    And I did not speak German, but I
    began to use some of the German that I knew
    in some of the discussions.
    Now, the Olympic Village was about 12 miles
    from the city of Berlin.
    Marty Glickman and I were headed for downtown Berlin
    from the village town, down to downtown.
    We were interested in two things.
    One, a boxing match that was going to take place that day
    and some other events about kids who were in difficulty,
    but were good athletes.
    Now, in the first instance that I mentioned,
    the bus we had missed, and there was
    a bus that ran every 30 minutes from the Olympic Village
    to downtown Berlin.
    If you missed the bus, you were out of luck
    for the next 30 minutes.
    And so Marty and I were headed for downtown Berlin
    and we did not make it, we were late.
    And so we went out on the highway
    and we put up our thumb to get a ride.
    Dressed in the American Olympic uniform,
    we had no trouble being picked up.
    We were picked up by German athletes in uniform,
    a German army man actually in uniform
    with a sidecar, a motorcycle with a sidecar.
    And Marty and I got in the sidecar and he drove us.
    We were almost through with the 12 miles
    and I asked the question, I asked
    the driver [GERMAN] Jackie Gleason,
    is Jackie Wilson from the United States
    of America going to be boxing tonight?
    Jackie Wilson from the United States
    going to be boxing tonight?
    [GERMAN] I use the word hind the Jewish word for tonight,
    instead of heute, which is the German word for tonight.
    If I wanted to know are all of you going to the movies
    tonight, heute, are you all going tonight?
    So I didn't say it the right way.
    And he stopped the car, stopped the motorcycle very sharply,
    pulled over off the highway.
    And Marty and I waited right there
    and he said, autography, autography, autography,
    autography.
    So we gave him our passport.
    He wanted to see our passport, the driver.
    He had no right to, he was not a police officer,
    yet I didn't want to start any fight with him.
    So we handed the two German Jeep drivers our passports.
    And we gave them to them and they gave them back to us
    and said autography,
    OK.
    From the Olympic Village, did you
    ever travel around or go into Berlin
    and have any unusual experiences?
    Yes.
    There were opportunities to go from the Olympic Village
    into the city of Berlin.
    Every 30 minutes, there was a special bus
    arranged for the athletes from different countries.
    I can recall one event when Marty Glickman, a friend
    of mine from Syracuse University, I
    had an opportunity to go downtown together.
    And we went and we went out on the road,
    ready to thumb a ride into the town.
    And the way it worked out was that a German Jeep
    or [MUMBLING] with sidecar, came by and saw our thumbs
    out waiting for a ride.
    And so they stopped and they invited us in.
    We went in, into their vehicle.
    And we moved along very rapidly.
    And at one point in the ride, the German driver said to us,
    can I see your passport?
    Your autograph?
    And he said to me, can I see your autograph, also in German.
    And we had them with us.
    But we didn't think it was their right to have them.
    And so I went beyond that, and I said, tell me, did
    will Jackie Wilson, from [YIDDISH],, from North America,
    [YIDDISH]?
    I was really speaking Yiddish.
    The word haynt meaning tonight.
    And instead of saying heute, which is tonight in German,
    I said haynt.
    And so that aroused their concern somewhat.
    And they asked us to stay over on the side of the highway.
    They talked to us a little bit, much of which
    we couldn't understand.
    But they asked for our autographs in spite of the fact
    that they were saying to themselves,
    these are two Jewish athletes.
    And we were dressed in uniforms, so they
    knew what we were doing there.
    The opportunity for knowledge of other country
    would be helpful to them.
    So they asked us for our autographs.
    But being stopped on the road, driving along with them
    and then being stopped to be asked what your autograph, what
    your number was, and then linking that
    to a request for an autograph, was unusual.
    That did happen, yes.
    And was frightening.
    Did you, in going into Berlin, did
    you notice any signs of Nazi Germany and anti-Semitism?
    There were beginning signs going up.
    There were workmen.
    Some men, some women in ladders.
    Climbing, three, four, five step ladders.
    Taking down signs, putting up signs.
    Identifying where they did not want you to be.
    Where you were forbidden to go.
    We saw those quite often.
    As a Jew.
    That's right.
    What did the sign say?
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    Jews forbidden to ride on this road.
    You know what, I think I need you to restate this,
    because I interrupted you.
    And I need you to say it as a complete thought,
    as if I'm not here.
    OK.
    So did you see indications of anti-Semitism
    when you went into Berlin?
    Yes.
    There were some.
    There were what?
    I need the whole--
    There were two situation which was very frightening.
    Marty Glickman and I were on the highway we had--
    I don't need that story.
    I want the signs.
    Oh.
    We were in the bus and we were asked for our autographs.
    We wondered why.
    And they were beginning to understand
    when they saw my autograph, Herman Goldberg, Yiddishah
    [? man ?], a Jewish man.
    That it was something that they should
    have been more cautious about, at least
    they were very scary to us at the beginning.
    And we did our very best to steer clear of them
    and we walked the last mile or two into town.
    And I went to where I wanted to go, to the Music Hall
    to hear the opera Die Fledermaus.
    And Marty went to some event, I can't recall what he went to.
    In Berlin itself, were there signs of the Nazi regime?
    No.
    There were not.
    They were being very careful to keep those
    hidden from direct public view.
    There were some evidences where news people, news syndicated
    people, syndicate people, wanted to see if there were troubles
    going on between Germany and the United States because
    of the existence of Hebrews on the American team.
    And it was clear to us that they wanted those signs down.
    And so there were some ladders, maybe four to six feet tall,
    that I noticed very carefully.
    And there were men and women on that ladder core,
    directing whether or not those people
    were going to stay on that or were
    going to move away from it.
    There was no smooth sailing.
    It was dreadful to think of what might be coming ahead.
    You couldn't quite tell everything.
    The preparation for athletic events,
    the preparation for musical events,
    et cetera, were all things that were good things.
    And you couldn't tell immediately
    that their anxiety over seeing what they could do to Americans
    could be completed.
    Did you have any other experiences
    where you were alarmed or felt that there was danger
    or that this anti-Semitism was rampant?
    Yes, there was one series of events where I felt that the--
    some news syndicates in America were
    very anxious to get evidence that things were not going well
    for American athletes.
    And that they would like to have me, and then perhaps others,
    spread the story through their syndicated news service.
    Spread the word that things were not
    going to be good for American athletes of Jewish background.
    The possibility of manufacturing such events when they really
    didn't exist was presented by one person
    from an American news syndicate.
    It was the kind of situation where my greatest hope
    would have been the ability to just knock them out
    on the floor.
    And get them off the boat.
    He followed the boat out into the river
    and then met the boat 80 miles from New York,
    checking on where could he get it, where could he
    dig a good story?
    But there was no foundation for that--
    But there was no foundation for that, that's correct.
    Speaking of the boat ride over, what was that like?
    Was it exciting?
    It was very exciting--
    Please say the the boat ride over.
    Yes.
    The boat ride over was very exciting.
    People were thinking about Eleanor Holm Jarrett,
    wondering about the allegations that she was drinking,
    using alcohol, using tobacco.
    There were statements having to do with, I think,
    a reduction in the credibility of some
    of the American athletes was rampant.
    And it got cleared up, I think after the thing was laid out
    on the table and was forcefully presented.
    But what was special about this boat ride over?
    What was happening?
    What was happening was the athletes
    were not sitting around.
    They were in training.
    I was surprised.
    Jesse Owens, Marty Glickman, Marty Stoller,
    a whole bunch of athletes, running, jumping--
    I need you to say that over, because you said Marty Stoller
    instead of Sam Stoller.
    Yes.
    So what was going on on the boat?
    There was a great deal of activity going on on the boat.
    They were practicing in their events.
    They were movement.
    There was nobody sitting around reading a book.
    They were trying hard to keep their weight down,
    they worked very hard in every aspect of self care.
    And it was important, because these athletes
    needed to have that great spirit, the great ability,
    the great bodily condition in which to participate.
    And I think the Americans had it.
    Was this an exciting opportunity for you?
    It was an exciting opportunity for me, for the first reason,
    Mickey Cochrane was aboard ship.
    And one wondered why would the manager of the Detroit Tigers
    be on board ship?
    Well, all the anxiety about it ended for me
    when I got word that I was picked up by the Detroit Tigers
    to become a member of the Detroit Tigers baseball team
    and to become a member of that rookie staff.
    And then to play with that team and to play with Buffalo
    in the International League.
    They were all very exciting to have Major League managers
    talk to you.
    And who knows how much they were watching
    and what notes they would take?
    Who knows?
    I don't know.
    But at any rate, it was a great feeling
    that having important people on board ship was present
    and they were taking plenty of time to talk to athletes
    and to be with them and to try to assess
    what they were really like.
    And I was lucky.
    I happened to hook on well with the Detroit Tigers.
    The games themselves.
    What was it like being there?
    It was thrilling in so many ways,
    because you looked out on the playing area
    and you saw room for 125,000 people.
    Not every event drew 125,000, some drew fewer numbers
    than that.
    But however, it was a very exciting thing
    to see that size crowd.
    Also to see a group playing a game that they weren't used to.
    The foul lines were white ribbon, four inches wide.
    And they didn't put plaster of Paris or yellow white dirt
    down on the field.
    You know what, I think you've explained that really well
    already.
    So I'm going to move on to when you were in the stands.
    You can kind of tell me about the atmosphere,
    if you saw Hitler, and the sort of general ambience.
    In the stands, where I sat next to Marty Glickman
    for several weeks while events were going on,
    there were some things happening that gave you some more
    idea of what was going on.
    Hitler did not stay in the visible area
    of his private balcony when a German athlete won an event.
    When a German athlete won an event,
    he walked out on his little balcony, he raised his hand,
    it was round of applause.
    And then he went back in.
    When a Black athlete, perhaps the Jewish athletes, too,
    there were very few of us, I couldn't count.
    There wasn't time to count.
    The Jewish athletes, and the black athletes, especially,
    caused Hitler to turn around and to walk out
    of his own private balcony.
    In other words, he did not want to be
    seen praising a Black athlete even in his own track and field
    area.
    He just didn't want to be seen.
    So what you're saying is, explain this to me once more.
    You could see Hitler from where you were sitting?
    From where I could see Hitler, I could
    see Hitler every single day.
    I could see him every day because his travels were mainly
    going from inside the balcony, outside, some applause,
    for the German athlete, his hand down when a Black athlete won
    an event, and his reverse and his walking out of his balcony
    when some other country became the winner of an event.
    He did not demonstrate the real feelings
    of Olympic history, Olympic meaning, Olympic strength.
    He did not demonstrate that at all.
    It was only what he could gain out of his own team's
    participation.
    And so he didn't even salute other white athletes?
    Basically just his own.
    He did not salute white athletes.
    He stayed away from any opportunity
    to applaud an athlete who won an event who came from a country
    that he didn't like, perhaps.
    I can't describe it in another way,
    but I would say it would be accurate to say that he removed
    himself from his own private balcony as often
    as he wanted to to demonstrate his own feeling.
    And that's what I saw all the time.
    Marty and I were very close to the balcony, Hitler's balcony.
    We were not far away.
    We could see that happening, his walking back and forth.
    What was it like seeing Hitler up close like that?
    I was no more than five feet away from him
    in the swimming meets.
    I went to the swimming meets and I
    learned that Hitler went to many of the events
    without prior notice.
    For example, wrestling, swimming.
    Kinds of events that didn't draw big crowds
    and without prior notice.
    In other words, he didn't call, on the phone,
    the committee connected with a particular event.
    He would just arrive there in his car,
    get out, follow his entourage, get up in the stands,
    sit there for three, four, or five minutes,
    get out, go on to the next one.
    That we saw very often.
    There was nothing that I can report
    that indicates that someone in charge
    of an athletic event of such great importance
    would behave that way.
    I could sense that.
    Yes.
    Was there something frightening about him,
    something awesome about him?
    Yes, because--
    I need you to say the whole thought.
    Yes.
    I think there were some frightening characteristics
    of that type of behavior, because it was evident
    that he did not wish to demonstrate fairness
    to athletes from several different countries.
    He avoided the opportunity to be even handed
    as often as possible, which is one
    of the one of the credos of the Olympiad,
    to be fair to all the countries of the world.
    Was there anything just viscerally significant
    about his presence?
    Walking out onto the field, he did that at the beginning,
    walking out--
    Please say that again, sir.
    Walking out into the field, Hitler.
    When Hitler was walking out onto the field,
    and that happened several times, it was very, very difficult
    to understand how he could possibly
    behave one way in the stands, another way on the field,
    another way to the press, another way to perhaps
    his own political leadership.
    It was very difficult to understand that.
    Because the work of the Olympiad is
    entirely different than being angry at other people.
    It's being friendly.
    It's being-- togetherness, trying to work together,
    trying to understand each other from different parts
    of the world.
    Did he have a commanding presence?
    What is it?
    Did Hitler have a commanding presence?
    Hitler had a very commanding presence.
    Never strong enough to present it
    solo, but always second or third line
    with other protective units around him all the time.
    Never walking into a situation by himself,
    but at least Goebbels and many of the others,
    10, 12 people surrounding, walking
    in a way that would give you fright.
    And the audience went wild for him?
    When he entered the stadium, what happened?
    When he entered the stadium?
    When Hitler entered the stadium, there was great applause.
    There was a tremendous attempt for his own citizens,
    his German participants, his German spectators,
    to applaud his presence.
    Yes, that's true.
    And they felt that he was the producer
    of this grand spectacle, this grand spectacle,
    to make it possible for the rest of the world
    to be waiting and watching.
    What was going on in Hitler, in Germany, at this place.
    I want to just ask you a question,
    again, about your role over there,
    because I know that in Berlin, you played exhibition games.
    And after that, you did what?
    After we played an exhibition game,
    we assigned a series of locations
    where the 28 of us on the Olympic baseball team
    were divided into squads and working
    with local physical education teachers and leaders
    to teach baseball to clubs, to teams, not to fight them
    against their great desire to play soccer,
    but to teach them that there was another sport
    and that the rest of the world was waiting for them
    to come in to baseball.
    Did you play exhibition games in these locations?
    We played exhibition games throughout Germany.
    Yes.
    Did you ever experience any Jewish sentiment
    while you were doing this?
    None whatsoever.
    None on my part.
    The only anti-Semitic feeling that I had slight touch from
    had to do with the newspaper syndicated people.
    You explained that, so you don't have to go through that--
    Who wanted to manufacture a story.
    Right.
    I'm going to change the tape.
    How are you doing?
    Are you OK?
    Yeah.
    Am I wearing you out?

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Herman Goldberg, born in November 1915, discusses his childhood and family in Brooklyn, NY; the importance of sports in his life; playing baseball at Brooklyn College and in the Canadian American League, where he was catcher for the Rome Colonels; his selection for the 1936 United States Olympic Baseball Team at pre-Olympic try outs in Baltimore, MD; his participation in exhibition baseball at the 1936 Olympics; his participation in baseball demonstrations throughout Germany immediately after the Olympics; discovering that the Olympic village would be used for the German Army after the close of the games; his memories of the voyage with the United States team to Germany; his memories of the proposed United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; and his impressions of Adolf Hitler's behavior during the various events of the Olympics, especially when black or Jewish athletes won medals.
    Interviewee
    Herman Goldberg
    Interviewer
    Randy M. Goldman
    Date
    interview:  1996 May 15

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Genre/Form
    Oral histories.
    Extent
    3 videocasettes (Betacam SP) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Exhibitions Department produced the interview with Herman Goldberg in preparation for the exhibit, "The Nazi Olympics, Berlin 1936."
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:31:41
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn504462

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    Time Coded Notes (2)

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    Also in The Nazi Olympics: Berlin 1936 oral history collection

    Contains interviews conducted in May 1996 by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's Exhibitions Department in preparation for "The Nazi Olympics: Berlin 1936" exhibition. The interviewees include: Milton Green, John Woodruff, Herman Goldberg, Marty Glickman, and Margaret Lambert. The interviews document the lives of five athletes and their experiences during the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, Germany

    Date: 1996

    Oral history interview with Milton Green

    Oral history interview with Milton Green

    Oral History

    Milton Green, born circa 1914 in Lowell, MA, discusses his childhood in Brookline, MA; his three siblings; attending Reform Temple with his family; his early interest in track and field sports; his participation in track sports while studying at Harvard University; receiving a certificate from Avery Brundage, of the American Olympic Committee, informing him of his qualification for final Olympic Team tryouts at Randall Island, NY; deciding with his teammate Norman Carnis to boycott the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, Germany at the urging of Rabbi Levi and other members of the Temple Israel; meeting with Harvard track coach Yacko Macola, who attempted to persuade him not to boycott the Olympics; following the 1936 Olympic events by radio and newspaper; his thoughts on the lack of an overall United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; enlisting in the United States Navy in 1943; being in Scouting Squadron 31 as an air combat intelligence officer; and leaving the service in 1946.

    Oral history interview with John Woodruff

    Oral history interview with John Woodruff

    Oral History

    John Woodruff, born July 5, 1915, discusses his childhood in Connellsville, PA; his introduction to track and field sports in high school; his memories of racism in Connellsville and at the University of Pittsburgh; his impressions of Adolf Hitler and Germany's treatment of the Jews at the time of the 1936 Olympic Games; his memories of the 1936 U. S. Olympic team's voyage to Berlin; training before the games; the athletes’ lifestyle in the Olympic village and relationships with fellow athletes; his recollections of Marty Glickman and Sam Stohler and the controversy over their exclusion from the 1936 Games; his memories of winning the 800 meter race and receiving the gold medal; his return to the United States and the University of Pittsburgh; his memories of Jesse Owens during and after the 1936 Games; his experiences of racism after returning to the United States; his impressions of Hitler's actions after 1936 and the use of the Olympic Games as propaganda; his relationship with Marty Glickman; and his recollections of the opening and closing ceremonies of the 1936 Olympic Games.

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral History

    Marty Glickman (né Martin Irvin Glickman), born in 1917 in Bronx, NY, discusses his childhood and growing up in Brooklyn, NY; his Romanian parents; his participation in sports throughout his childhood and youth; his competition with Ben Johnson and realizing his potential to compete in the Olympics; his memories of antisemitism in Europe and the United States; his races against Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe during the Olympic qualification events at Randall Island, NY; the voyage to Germany with the 1936 U.S. Olympic Team; his memories of a possible United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; his friendship with Herman Goldberg, a member of the 1936 U.S. Baseball Team; his views on the role of politics in the Olympic Games; the arrival and reception of the U.S. Team in Berlin, Germany; Hitler's reaction to the victorious black athletes; his memories of the Olympic village in Berlin and the opening ceremonies; the controversy that arose when he and Sam Stohler were removed from the 400 meter relay and replaced with Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalf; the role of Dean Cromwell, the American track coach, in excluding Glickman and Stohler from the relay; his memories of watching Owens and Metcalfe win the relay; his views on the involvement of Avery Brundage, President of the American Olympic Committee, in having him and Stohler removed from the relay; his experience with racism in 1937, when a fellow Syracuse football teammate was excluded from a game because he was black; and his hopes to compete in other Olympics after 1936.

    Oral history interview with Margaret Lambert

    Oral history interview with Margaret Lambert

    Oral History

    Margaret Lambert (née Gretl Bergman), born April 12, 1914, discusses her childhood in Laupheim, Germany; her involvement in various sports as a child; her memories of antisemitism after the Nazis took power in 1933; her relationships with non-Jewish friends and athletes; moving to England in October 1933 to attend school and to train; her victory at the British National Championships in June 1934; returning to Germany to become a member of the 1936 German Olympic team; her relationships with other athletes and coaches on the German team while training for the Olympics; her reflections on how she depended on her anger toward the Nazis to help her succeed in the running and jumping events; her time in school and training in Stuttgart, Germany; her outstanding performance in qualifying events in Stuttgart just prior to the Olympics; her dismissal from the German Olympic team following the qualifying events in Stuttgart; immigrating to the United States in May 1937; her father's brief imprisonment in the Dachau concentration camp in 1938; her family's escape from Germany to England in 1939; her impressions of the Olympic Games as Nazi propaganda; and her decision to attend the Olympic Games in Atlanta in 1996 as a special guest of the German government.

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