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Oral history interview with Elga Rosenfeld

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1993.A.0094.31 | RG Number: RG-50.150.0031

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    Oral history interview with Elga Rosenfeld
    Transcript
    What happened to you in this prison?
    So we were there till the 4th of July, I think.
    Or the 3rd of July.
    July 3rd, we left.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Everybody should prepare to come in the [NON-ENGLISH] and go
    away.
    And I thought, by myself, that's the best thing that
    could happen to us, that the Russian takes us to Russia.
    Because the German came.
    And we heard, already, that the Germans are around Dorpat,
    at Tartu, the university city.
    And I prayed only, liebe Gott, take us out.
    Well we saw Tallinn burn.
    Yeah, you.
    Yeah, me, as a child, I saw it.
    As she will tell you, yeah.
    And so everybody came in the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    But our papers were not there.
    And we were alone.
    And they left, and it became as a big prison.
    And one officer-- it was an Estonian officer said,
    what are you doing here?
    We said our name is so and so.
    And I don't know.
    We are waiting.
    And he sent somebody to the wagon.
    And he said, oh, they are in the wagon.
    No, they are not in the wagon.
    So our papers, by mistake, were in the wagon already.
    And they brought us to the wagon.
    And then they asked us to whom you want in the wagon?
    We said Professor Blumenthal.
    So they called Blumenthal, Blumenthal.
    So one Blumenthal answered.
    It was not Professor Blumenthal.
    But luckily, I will tell you why, we went to that wagon.
    And later on, we went, by nighttime,
    to the station of Tallinn.
    And we were standing all the day.
    And I heard always a bombardment.
    I said, my goodness, take us out.
    Take us out.
    And we were closed, you know?
    But one time, they opened the door.
    And I looked out.
    And I saw in the neighbor wagon, Blumenthal's daughters.
    And they cried.
    They cried, we want to be together.
    So I said, don't worry, we will come together.
    And then, later on, the train went.
    And all the people were standing around.
    The Estonian people were crying.
    Because they said, our people, they ran away with our people.
    But they didn't know that we were the Germans.
    But they took their bourgeoisie, too.
    Yeah.
    Because all the bourgeoisie went to prison.
    And--
    Did you know where they were taking you?
    No.
    Did they tell you?
    No.
    Did you know where you were going?
    No.
    No.
    No.
    No.
    No.
    No.
    No.
    And I said, my goodness, I will reach only the border of Russia
    that is Narva.
    You know the Narva River and a big, beautiful town,
    very interesting town.
    And on the way, we got bombarded.
    On July 5th.
    Yeah, that was July 5th.
    The German bombarded us.
    Yeah.
    They boarded you on the train?
    The train.
    And through that--
    So the impact from the bomb.
    Yeah, the doors--
    The doors opened.
    Open.
    And--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --our officers and went in the forest,
    because they want to stay alive.
    And we went down, you know?
    And at first, my husband, and then he took Leonie.
    I jumped down.
    And she jumped.
    Yeah, because it was so high.
    [CROSS TALK]
    And I didn't have time to jump at first.
    And then they came back and always with a machine gun.
    I could see the faces.
    I never forget, the smiling faces of the Nazis
    in that plane.
    That was terrible.
    And I threw some sugar and a pillow,
    what I had, down to my daughter, that she goes under the pillow.
    And then I jumped.
    And I lay over my daughter under another train, who was nearby,
    stopped nearby.
    Because all the trains stopped, of course.
    And we were under the train.
    And later on, we went to the forest.
    And we saw all the dying people and even Professor Blumenthal
    and family, too.
    In the--
    The professor was, right away, dead.
    And two girls and the mother were laying, one the other,
    you know?
    And I gave my pillow then.
    And I took the white pillow case out and to [NON-ENGLISH]
    and all that.
    And it was such a [NON-ENGLISH],, you know.
    [NON-ENGLISH] That you could hardly walk.
    But later on, the soldiers came and said, everybody back.
    Everybody back.
    The Russian soldiers?
    The Russian soldiers.
    So we went back to the train.
    And we went with that damaged train to Narva.
    And in Narva, we get a new cattle wagon.
    And we went further for six weeks.
    For six weeks on the train?
    On the train, and it was very hot and very little water.
    It was always water shortage.
    And we couldn't go over Leningrad,
    because Leningrad was always bombarded and already--
    Encircled?
    Yeah, it was impossible.
    And in Leningrad started that time,
    the hard time, what they went through, that poor people.
    I feel very sorry for the Russian people,
    because they are a good people, you know, good hearted,
    only they are wrong, in the wrong direction.
    Now, when you said that, when the train was
    attacked by the Nazis--
    Yeah.
    --what happened to the Nazi soldiers?
    They left at that point?
    After?
    They attacked by plane.
    Oh, they attacked by plane.
    By plane.
    OK.
    By plane.
    I mean, you will have this all in here.
    Yeah.
    Yeah, they have-- they bombarded.
    That was the only thing what I was asking, liebe Gott,
    they shouldn't bombard the bridge.
    And then came a big bombardment.
    But that was very far away.
    And I said to the people, oh, my goodness, the bridge
    is bombarded.
    They said, what you are talking?
    What you are talking?
    That's stupid.
    That's not.
    It was.
    The bridge was bombarded.
    And we had to wait till they make the way, again--
    So you couldn't just go--
    --across.
    Go across the bridge.
    Yeah.
    Where did you-- six weeks later, where were you?
    Where did the train bring you?
    You know, Gorky?
    Nearby Gorky, I think it's 50 miles away or more.
    It was an old, old cloister.
    And that was as a big prison then, later on, by the Soviets.
    They stole everything but not the golden cupola
    and all the beautiful paintings on the walls.
    They couldn't take it, because that was in, you know?
    Right.
    And there we were staying till November 5th, I think.
    Then came prisoners in, German prisoners.
    When you were staying there, the Russians were--
    the Russians were the ones that were taking care of you
    at that point?
    Yeah, sure, only Russians.
    How did they-- how did they-- did they expect you to work?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    But we worked really hard, next time, in the next.
    Right, OK.
    And now, because I was staying with the children,
    I didn't go out for work.
    Like--
    We are now in Gorky, in this cloister?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    Yeah, yeah.
    But in this cloister.
    Oranki.
    Yeah.
    My daughter got very sick there and had to get operated.
    And they didn't want to let her go.
    And one Russian woman, who was taking care of us, too--
    at first, I thought she's a terrible woman.
    But it turned out that she was this one, say to the biggest
    officers there, who was responsible,
    if this child will die, then I go to report that in Moscow.
    And you will see.
    After all, she went away.
    You know, they took her away.
    But they took-- what's calling that--
    a truck, big truck.
    And Leonie couldn't hold her head,
    because she had on her head-- she had,
    before the [NON-ENGLISH]---- what is this calling?
    Leonie?
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    And she had the [NON-ENGLISH],, here, on the head.
    And so the dirt, on the way, it came dust--
    Chickenpox.
    Chickenpox, she had, yeah.
    And the dust came, and so she got a terrible--
    Infection.
    --infection and abscess.
    It was inside.
    Yeah.
    The pus was all inside.
    Yeah.
    So she had to be taken?
    Yeah.
    And they took her--
    They took me to Gorky.
    Yeah.
    And everybody said, they will not see the child anymore.
    And they treated her beautiful there.
    That was a hospital, which was already for the soldiers,
    for the Russian soldiers, who they expected
    to come in from the front.
    Sit here, it's better.
    No, it's not better.
    For the Russian soldiers, who came in from the,
    front for them, this hospital was done.
    But it was still empty.
    So I was the first patient there when they operated on me.
    So I got a good treatment.
    Yeah.
    And were you able to go with her?
    No.
    No.
    That was terrible for me, you know?
    And then I didn't want to see anybody in that time.
    And like a wonder, in the evening,
    all the children came and cried out, Leonie is here.
    Leonie is here.
    And I said, that's fairy tale.
    You know it's impossible.
    And she came, but with the head full of bandage, you know?
    And she had a terrible time later on with that,
    too, till it--
    Healed.
    Yeah, it healed.
    How did you manage to take care of her
    after she came back from the hospital?
    That was, this time, when I didn't work outside.
    I was still in the children's house.
    Yeah.
    That was--
    During this time, was your husband working?
    Yeah, my husband was.
    Yeah, he was.
    He was staying in the men's house.
    That's right.
    And he was working?
    Yeah, a little bit.
    In this camp was not so much, but later on.
    Why did they move you from this camp?
    They moved us, because, at first, the German soldiers
    had to come in.
    The German prisoners.
    The prisoners, yeah.
    Prisoners of war?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And later on--
    They need the space for them.
    --the Germans came always.
    They were in front of Moscow, already.
    And they took us, in the terrible winter, to--
    Aktyubinsk.
    --Aktyubinsk.
    That is the government went to Kuybyshev.
    And in Kuybyshev, we were standing two days and nights.
    And I got crazy, because I was afraid, for the Germans,
    that they come and bombard.
    Sure enough, we went out, and the station was bombarded.
    Only luck, a matter of luck.
    When you say you were standing, you
    mean, literally, you were waiting in the train station?
    In the train.
    Yeah, we couldn't go out.
    Yeah.
    We were closed.
    We were in the train, was closed in the trains.
    But I mean the train was standing on one spot.
    Right, that's what-- uh huh.
    And did you, at this time, know where they were taking you?
    No.
    Never.
    Never.
    They didn't say anything to us.
    Mentally, how did that affect you
    in terms of never knowing where you were going?
    Even we didn't know where our men are, our husbands.
    Because the men were in the front and the women,
    in the back, with the children.
    And one day, we heard--
    one very early morning, we heard voices.
    And one woman said to me, oh, they take our husbands away.
    They take our husbands away.
    She got hysterical.
    I had my medication.
    And I gave her medication, then she calmed down.
    And later on, one soldier--
    how was calling-- who took [NON-ENGLISH]??
    One guard.
    Guard.
    Guard, yeah.
    They took us.
    They opened the door and said to him, not [NON-ENGLISH]..
    That was it, yeah.
    But later on, they told us to cover us and come with them,
    too, to the high snow.
    And in meantime, we had, in our wagons, a baby who passed away.
    And that was terrible to take the dead baby, too.
    Let me ask you, in all this time that you're in a train,
    and this is a [NON-ENGLISH].
    Yeah?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    How did you manage to-- what kind of sanitary conditions
    did they allow you?
    Sanitary conditions?
    You are funny.
    Yeah, that is, it was a hole in the wagon.
    And such a pipe, big pipe, that was it.
    And we took some--
    one of us had some curtain--
    not curtain, as a curtain--
    Fabric, some?
    Yeah.
    And then we had two glasses of water a day.
    One glass, I took with my daughter,
    together, to wash myself and herself.
    And the other one, we took for tea.
    How did you--
    To drink.
    Yeah.
    Cold?
    Cold water.
    But we had a [NON-ENGLISH].
    I don't know how it's calling.
    Cannon stove.
    A little stove.
    A little stove, but that doesn't mean anything.
    And we put our glasses there, you know?
    What did you do for beds?
    Beds?
    You are kidding?
    We had [NON-ENGLISH].
    Wooden-- yeah, well I mean the wood was put--
    I mean this is a wagon, right.
    Two woods.
    So you have, here, one on top of the other, the woods,
    like this, and, here, on the other side, too.
    So you were laying like herrings next to each other.
    Together, you know?
    So in other words, it's two levels, two, like one--
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Bunk bed type, but just planks of wood.
    Right.
    So I mean that the one was next to the other.
    Yeah.
    But that way was all the time, and no difference in the camps.
    We were sleeping that way.
    And you had that--
    I had such a thin mattress with me.
    And that was 75 centimeter.
    I don't know in inches.
    Well, all right, yeah.
    We were together, all the six years
    together on that mattress.
    But that mattress had already holes,
    because it was from the water, and from the steam
    of the people, you know, gone already.
    How did you get that mattress or blankets?
    I took it with me from home in a big bag, what I had.
    Because I was a little bit prepared
    that they will take us.
    So I had some luggage with me.
    And then they picked back and put the--
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    Pillows.
    --pillows and [NON-ENGLISH]--
    Blankets.
    --blankets and such things but not much covers.
    One more thing, what did you do?
    Did you take clothes with you?
    Yeah, I took clothes for everybody.
    But matter of fact, I did it before the people came.
    So I had to take out only the luggage.
    Oh, so you just had to take the luggage along with you?
    Yeah.
    Did they allow you to keep your luggage?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That is because we were foreigners.
    That was.
    And what about in the cattle car?
    I'm just trying to picture it.
    In the cattle car, when the doors are closed,
    how do you get air?
    There were-- every cattle car has some little window
    upstairs, so on the ceiling, you know?
    Yeah.
    On every side.
    That was the only thing what we had.
    And did they provide the food, the Russians?
    Yes, we got, one time a day, a little bit soup--
    water and something in, you know?
    But this time, we had from home.
    And everybody got a little piece of bread and herring,
    but dried herring, dried--
    Fish.
    --fish.
    But in the beginning, we didn't want to eat that.
    And this Professor Blumenthal told us, we have to eat it,
    because it is very nourishing and very important to have it.
    Protein, yeah.
    That protein.
    Yeah.
    And so from Aktyubinsk--
    in Aktyubinsk, we had to work very hard, even in summertime,
    outside, in the fields.
    Aktyubinsk is after?
    Now, this is where they took you from outside of Gorky?
    Yeah.
    That was the next stop.
    That was the next stop.
    And how were you treated there?
    Always, the same, you know?
    The barracks were not good, the condition.
    We came in the cold winter.
    And it was not good.
    But that time, the Russians suffered, themselves.
    Yeah.
    Because the Germans came, and they
    didn't have anything to eat.
    [CROSS TALK] and the Russians suffered then, at that time.
    Yeah.
    But we were, in so far, lucky, because we had an big officer,
    who took over that place.
    And he treated us as human beings, because he find out,
    through talking with us, that--
    he told me, personally, once, you know,
    a very educated people are with you and much higher
    educated, like I am, but, of course, people
    who are less than I, too.
    But I try to be a human being and try to be human to you.
    So in the wintertime, he was standing in front of the door.
    No, we never--
    [NON-ENGLISH], gate?
    Yeah.
    When the woman, from the village, came to market,
    and he bought, himself, from his own money,
    milk and eggs for our children.
    Only for the children, he could do that.
    And later on, in July, we had to go further.
    And he called me, with a friend, and told me,
    you know, I have so much feelings for you,
    because your daughter looks like my daughter.
    And I lost my wife and my daughter in the war jetzt, now.
    And don't be surprised when, one day, I steal your daughter.
    But unfortunately, I have to tell you that you go further.
    You go across the whole of Asia.
    And he explained me on the map, where we go.
    But I was supposed not to talk about.
    And then I said, oh, I'm sorry that we have to leave you.
    He said, yes, you go there.
    But I have to go to the front, because I was too good to you.
    He knows it.
    And we went there, what he said.
    But it was much worse, what he told us.
    Because it was a terrible time for the Russians, too.
    But it was terrible.
    From there, we went to Karaganda.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    To Karaganda, and to Aktyubinsk--
    To Karaganda.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Now, in Karaganda, you went again by cattle car--
    Yeah, yeah.
    --to Karaganda.
    Everywhere.
    Along this journey, what was the mortality rate?
    Do you know?
    Yeah, some people died.
    Of what?
    Did they die of starvation?
    Maybe.
    Maybe for heart reasons.
    And it was-- you need much strength to come over,
    to get over it all.
    We lost many people in Aktyubinsk, already,
    for the hunger [INAUDIBLE],, you know?
    Well, the first years, we lost a lot of people from hunger.
    Because the people were not used to the type of work
    and to the type of climate and--
    To the type of food.
    And well, hunger, that's hunger.
    Yeah, yeah.
    The type of food is hunger.
    But they were not used--
    I mean, most of our people came from the middle classes.
    And they were not used to this type of work,
    to this type of-- to the climate, which was there,
    and, on top of it, the hunger.
    And so many people from Spain, we had, and they died there.
    That was the climate, the hunger.
    When you say, used to the type of work,
    up to now, before Karaganda, what type of work
    did the Russians ask you to do?
    So in the fields, you know?
    Agriculture.
    Men.
    Men?
    Agriculture, yeah.
    Men, specifically, or both men--
    Yeah, men and women.
    Matter of fact, they took our men away in Aktyubinsk, once,
    for [NON-ENGLISH].
    I don't know.
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    Bricks?
    Bricks.
    A brick fabrik, you know?
    And but they didn't say us, where our men are.
    And we worried to death, that time, you know?
    So we were staying with the children, alone.
    Yeah.
    Was there a lot of hysteria among--
    well, we can only talk about among the women.
    Oh, yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    Sure, sure.
    Yeah.
    And some women talked about what they left.
    Big deal, you know?
    And so that kind, and then they get really crazy.
    But I told my daughter, right away, you look only straight.
    Don't hear, don't listen, anything from right to left.
    You are looking straight.
    Don't look what other people is having to eat or not to eat,
    because sometimes people could buy something, under the hand,
    between them, between themselves.
    Yeah.
    And so for what reason should she suffer that way?
    But it's a funny thing that my mother, in the same time,
    was in Westerbork.
    And she told her school friend, who came to Westerbork,
    she said, I must think you are a horse.
    And she said, why should I be a horse?
    Because the horse is looking for what's straight.
    The horse can't see and hear right and left when they had
    [NON-ENGLISH]--
    Blinders.
    --blinders, yeah.
    Isn't that funny?
    It was the same time then, because I could--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --who survived.
    Later.
    Later.
    Later on, yes.
    At this time, when you were in Russia,
    did you know where your parents were?
    No.
    No?
    OK.
    No.
    No.
    I thought they are safe in Holland.
    But later on, I find out that they went to the gas, you know?
    When you--
    [AUDIO OUT]
    OK.
    When and where were you born?
    I was born in Silesia, in the capital of Silesia, Breslau,
    in 1906.
    And my family has roots in Silesia, what we could
    find out, to the 17th century.
    Both my husband and my roots are the same.
    We are from the same background.
    And I was in school for 12 years.
    And later on, I went to the Kunst Academy,
    the academy of art to learn painting, china painting.
    And besides that, I studied singing, you know, music.
    What did you--
    That was my favorite.
    And my parents were very fond of art and music, too.
    And I was always prepared to go to the orchestra concert,
    to the philharmonic.
    Because my mother was on the piano and my father piano, too,
    and had a beautiful voice and was singing beautiful.
    That was it.
    Can you tell me a little bit about
    your educational background?
    You went to the school to study art.
    The school, yeah.
    Did you hope to become professional?
    Yeah.
    I was.
    I was a designer for modern painting,
    for porcelain, for china.
    And I did it private, this time, till I married.
    When did you marry?
    I married 1929.
    But I was dated with my sweetheart already five years.
    We were very young.
    And we had to wait.
    Was your husband studying at the time?
    Yeah, my husband-- and my husband was then
    in the [NON-ENGLISH],, you know, iron--
    Pipe?
    --pipe, yeah, iron pipe.
    Yeah.
    Was this--
    Industry, yeah.
    Silesia was known for ironworks?
    Yes.
    And later on, we went to Berlin, because he became a director
    of that Aktiengesellschaft.
    What is Aktien--
    That is a-- that was--
    it was called ERAG, E-R-A-G, that is [NON-ENGLISH]
    Aktiengesellschaft.
    And that was from Czech owners.
    And that was the reason he could stay till 1938.
    But in 1938, he was the last Jew in the--
    Company?
    No, not in the company, but somewhere where
    all the big shots came together from the industry.
    And he had to go.
    Right.
    Was this company owned by Jews?
    Yes, yeah, by Czech Jews.
    Czech Jews.
    Yeah.
    That was.
    And the company took over, was [NON-ENGLISH],, later on.
    Yeah.
    When you went to Berlin, did you continue painting?
    A little bit, only private painting and singing.
    I had a very good master in singing.
    In Berlin?
    In Berlin, yeah.
    And matter of fact, the brother of Leo Fall, Siegfried Fall,
    who was composer and [NON-ENGLISH] on the opera,
    on the Berlin Opera, he took me to a very good master.
    But that was it.
    Did you sing in concerts?
    No, I was singing, sometimes, in small concerts.
    But later on--
    In private.
    Yeah.
    But did you and your husband take
    advantage of all-- in the early years,
    of all the cultural events in Berlin?
    You went to all the concerts?
    I went, yes.
    But later on, it was quite difficult, for us, as Jews.
    But in 1938, in September--
    matter of fact, it was my birthday, 25th of September,
    we went to Estonia.
    Because in Estonia was a friend of my husband,
    whom he knows from the office.
    He was Estonian and Russian, together.
    And he had a [NON-ENGLISH] fabrik.
    I don't know in English.
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    Yeah, in Germany, but he wanted to go to Estonia, back.
    And he asked my husband to do it for him.
    But it didn't came that way.
    It didn't work out.
    Before we reach 1938, I just wonder,
    could you describe life in Berlin, during the 1930s,
    a little bit--
    your life in Berlin?
    Yeah, in the beginning, it was beautiful.
    But later on, when they start with the Hitler,
    it was not nice anymore.
    And all right, we went out.
    And we had our friends even in the Christian way.
    But it was, later on, very difficult.
    Did you notice any change among your Christian friends
    as time went on?
    In the later years, from '38, we thought, by ourselves, it's
    not fair to bring them in some kind of situation.
    So that was it.
    But still, we have friends, even today, from that time.
    Because when we came back, they came, right away, to greet us
    and to help us.
    Yeah.
    Did you ever notice?
    Did you ever see any signs, Juden Unerwünscht?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Even my daughter had a big shot, when the--
    it was a little place, a small place,
    when I went to my singing lessons.
    And there were two banks, one yellow and one dark.
    And they were workers on the street.
    And I heard their conversation.
    That is a Judenbank.
    But still, we were sitting on the Judenbank.
    Why not?
    So that people was Social Democrats, I think.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That way.
    So such things happen.
    Even in the stores, it was not nice anymore.
    And I had a girl--
    a girl-- a maid for over 45.
    And she came, very excited, home and said, my goodness,
    they asked me, what you are doing
    and your husband is doing?
    And if I hear something, but you told about the Nazis and so.
    And she said, no, I never heard such things in my house.
    Because she was very strong feeling to us.
    Even when we departed, she sent me letters.
    And it was really heartbreaking.
    And she told me always, can't you take me,
    can't you take me away.
    Was she allowed to stay with you after the Rassenschande clause.
    Yeah, 45 she was.
    If you were over 45.
    Oh, I see.
    OK.
    Not young people.
    Right.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    That's right.
    Yeah.
    Did you and your husband feel, during those early years,
    that [NON-ENGLISH]?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Because even my father was officer, in the army,
    in the First World War.
    And he had all the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And we didn't think so far.
    But my father went away, with my mother, at first, to Prague.
    When did they leave?
    They left already in '34.
    And they asked us, always, come.
    But later on, it didn't work out anyway.
    And they went to Holland.
    And in Holland was the same way.
    And they came to the gas chambers.
    From Holland.
    From Westerbork?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, from Westerbork.
    Because we had friends and relatives in Holland,
    and they went there.
    And they thought they would be safe.
    Yeah.
    Did they leave Prague right after Munich?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And in the meantime, in Berlin, do
    you remember seeing parades and Nazi demonstrations?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Matter of fact, it was by accident,
    yeah, I came in the middle of the people
    when Hitler went to the church, the big church.
    It was-- I don't know what it was.
    It was a funeral or something.
    And the people pushed me in the front, because I'm tiny.
    And the big SS men were standing.
    And one of the SS men said, come, come, come,
    you have to see him, too.
    You are tiny.
    You can look between my legs.
    It must have been a big SS man.
    Yeah.
    So but what should I do, you know?
    I couldn't say, no.
    During all this time, did you belong
    to a congregation in Berlin?
    We belonged to a temple, yes.
    I was just going to ask, at any time,
    did you ever hear the congregation or the rabbis
    encourage [NON-ENGLISH] or encourage you to do something?
    No.
    No, because we didn't have so much relationship to him.
    It was not that way.
    In Breslau, I know that rabbi, who was my teacher,
    at first, and then make my wedding.
    But so after all, then later on--
    In my family, I had a rabbi.
    and But he belonged to Karlsbad, too.
    He was a Czech.
    As a matter of fact, my mother was an Austrian.
    And that belonged, in former time, to Austria.
    But my mother's family came from Vienna.
    But my uncle was in Karlsbad, an Arzt, doctor.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And so that way.
    When your husband's company was [NON-ENGLISH],, up to that time,
    to your knowledge, did the Gestapo know that he was
    employed in this, he was a director of this company?
    Yeah, yeah.
    Did the Gestapo know?
    Yeah.
    Because before we wanted to go out of Germany,
    the Gestapo came and made a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    you know what it is?
    Search.
    They search, everything search.
    And then took-- and we had, already, our passports.
    And they took away our passports and everything.
    And we had to go from one place to the other to ask for that.
    And we were questioning.
    They question me.
    They question my husband.
    And why we go out and where we go and what we want to do
    and what we have for values, and all kind of things.
    We had a very difficult time then.
    What did your husband tell them as to where you were going
    and what was?
    They know.
    They have known.
    But they thought that we had given money
    to that man who wanted us in Estonia, in Tallinn.
    But it was not true.
    Because we didn't give them any money.
    When did you make the decision that you had to leave?
    I think 1937, already, before my husband lost the job.
    Was the decision based on the fact
    that maybe he could find work, hopefully,
    with this man in Tallinn?
    Yes, because he came, right away, to us, and to ask us.
    Was this man Jewish?
    No.
    No.
    No, no.
    No, no.
    The contrary.
    I met him the first time when he had the Nazi [NON-ENGLISH]
    here.
    But this is a button with a swastika.
    Yeah.
    But he told me, he is not a Nazi.
    Because he had to do it.
    He was an Auslander, a foreigner in Germany,
    and he had to do it to show them that--
    and he had three or four boys.
    And they all were in the Hitlerjugend, you know?
    But he wanted to make that place safe for him that, one day,
    he can come to Tallinn.
    He did it.
    Matter of fact, he did it.
    He came to Tallinn.
    But the fabrik--
    Company.
    --the company was already gone.
    Now, when you left, did the Nazis make it difficult
    for you to leave Germany?
    Yes.
    How did they?
    Yeah.
    Matter of fact, we didn't have our passports, anymore.
    And we had-- our apartment was gone, because it was--
    everything was packed up, then later on,
    after they searched us.
    And we were sitting on our luggage
    to wait for the permit to go out.
    You mentioned that they thought that maybe you
    had taken money to Tallinn.
    Were you--
    They find out that this was not possible.
    Were you only able to leave with the 10 Reichsmark or?
    Yeah.
    And how did you--
    But you got your furniture out.
    Yeah, I had my furniture out.
    And I don't know, it belongs to here,
    to tell that we had a very nice man as a custom--
    Official.
    Yeah.
    --who wanted to help me.
    And he asked me, you mentioned, here, jewelry.
    Where you have the jewelry?
    I said, come, I show you.
    And he said, you know, that is a new law.
    It's forbidden to take any jewelry out.
    And I said, I don't know that.
    So then he said, come, where is your luggage?
    Big trunk, I said, here, in the bedroom.
    And he closed the door, because that the men
    who packed not see it.
    And it was in a little cassette.
    And he said to me, look, here, in the right corner,
    under all your clothes, he said, place it.
    Don't forget it in that black luggage, here, the big trunk.
    And think of me.
    And I said, thank you very much.
    But he will refuse to take anything.
    And he said, no, I'm human being, too.
    And I had the suspicion that he was a Social Democrat.
    And he had much feelings for us.
    And he wished me good luck.
    So I was lucky.
    But anyway, I lost it.
    Yeah.
    Through the Russians, then, you know?
    And then you left Berlin and went to Tallinn.
    Yeah.
    And how did you find Estonia?
    Estonia, it was very disturbing for me.
    Because they had Germans, too, but the Baltic Germans,
    you know?
    They are much worse than the really German.
    And in the same hotel, where we were, at first, it was--
    it was a time when the Czechs, when
    they came to the Czechoslovakia, the Germans.
    And they had a big affair there and was singing and dancing
    and always, Heil Hitler, Heil Hitler.
    And one woman said to a man, who went to Germany back,
    [NON-ENGLISH] Fatherland.
    But that woman didn't know anything from Germany,
    because she was never before in Germany.
    And all kinds of things-- it was very disturbing for us.
    When you said you stayed in a hotel,
    were you able to take enough money to tide you over?
    Yeah, so far we had that.
    Yeah.
    Was your husband working in this company, now.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    He was working, there, in Estonia, in Tallinn.
    Now, when the Germans came into Poland
    or when the war broke out, in 1939, how did that affect you?
    It was a terrible time for us, too,
    because we had always a feeling we are not safe.
    And we had a family of my husband, here, in New York.
    And they tried to send us affidavits.
    And we had before, already--
    what is [NON-ENGLISH]--
    Applied.
    --applied for America.
    Because we thought, always, that it's only interregnum.
    And it was very difficult for us then until the Russian came,
    and they closed all the embassies.
    And we couldn't go to Moscow.
    We were not allowed to Moscow.
    That was the next embassy for the USA,
    because we couldn't get fast enough our--
    Visa?
    --visa.
    Our number was too high.
    Yeah, the number.
    The relatives sent it, and the number
    was too high to emigrate from--
    this is from Germany to America?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    When the Nazis invaded Russia, this was already in 1941,
    right at the beginning?
    Yeah, in 1940, they came already.
    '40.
    And what happened to you then?
    So then the first thing was we had
    to leave Tallinn, overnight.
    It was the middle of--
    It was in January.
    I have here--
    It was in January.
    --January 10th--
    Yeah, that's right.
    --1940, we went to Tartu, Dorpat.
    Yeah, to Dorpat.
    That means that that's when the Germans--
    Yeah, yeah, I know.
    --when the Russians came in.
    Yeah, yeah.
    That was the first thing.
    Because we were foreigners, we had to go out.
    But we came back a year later.
    We came back in August 15, 1940.
    We came back to Tallinn.
    Yeah, yeah.
    So you spent that year in Tartu.
    Yeah, in Dorpat.
    And it was very interesting, because we had the opportunity
    to come to the circle of all the university professors.
    And we made beautiful friends, not only
    Jewish friends but Christian friends, Estonian.
    Yeah.
    And when we came back to Tallinn,
    they came and visit us, too.
    And when the Russian--
    when the war broke out, they called us.
    They will hide us somewhere, some places,
    when the Germans come.
    But thank God, we didn't do that.
    And when the Russian-- and the Russian took us,
    right away, you know?
    When you left Tartu to go back to Tallinn--
    Yeah?
    --why did you do that at that point?
    I had my apartment there.
    In Tallinn.
    In Tallinn, yeah.
    But you felt it was safe enough to go back to Tallinn
    at that point?
    Yeah, sure, because it was my home.
    And I had very nice friends, Russian Jews,
    beautiful friends, wonderful friends.
    And we were living really a nice relationship together.
    And my daughter was there in school.
    How old was your daughter at the time?
    At the time, she was eight years old I think.
    And when you say that you went back to Tallinn,
    what happened after that time, when you went back,
    August 1940.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    My husband had a terrible time to find some work.
    And we had to leave that apartment, too,
    because the Russians took it over and gave us only seven
    [NON-ENGLISH] meter per person.
    So we had to leave for another apartment with other people,
    together.
    You had to share.
    Yeah.
    Was the Russian attitude toward you because you were Jewish
    or because you were foreigners?
    Foreigners, at first, foreigners.
    And the Jew is, anyway, not a very--
    But it was foreigners.
    But that was for foreigners.
    All the foreigners had to do that.
    But no, not only the foreigners, every people had to leave
    the apartment if they have too many [NON-ENGLISH] meters.
    Were the Russians, at this time, preparing for war?
    It was very interesting.
    I had the opportunity to talk to Russian Jews in my friend's
    house.
    And matter of fact, that time, I understood.
    And we were talking, of course, about Hitler and everything.
    Then I said to him, I left my country.
    And it was very difficult for me.
    But I had to leave it, and that's pitiful.
    And they said to me, don't worry,
    one day you'll get it back.
    Because we will take it back.
    So they were prepared.
    Were| English soldiers were, too, there, but as private men,
    that time.
    But something was going on.
    When did the Russians take you into custody?
    On June 23rd, 1941.
    Can you hear?
    Yeah.
    June 23rd, 1941.
    So you were living in Tallinn, then, nine months,
    the second time.
    Yeah.
    And why did the Russians take you into custody at that point?
    Because we had the foreign passports.
    German passports.
    German passports at that time.
    Right.
    And all right.
    And all the foreigners, all the foreigners--
    Well, the war had started.
    Even the [CROSS TALK]
    I was just going to say, did they considered you enemy?
    Yeah, sure.
    Yeah, the war had started.
    And they considered-- anyway, we are the enemies of them,
    because even the Jews in the concentration camp then.
    Yeah, but I mean, at that time, it was a matter of--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --we had German passports.
    How did you feel when the Russians--
    Took us?
    --took you?
    Really, I didn't know what to say.
    Because one Russian came and one Estonian came.
    The Estonian was very nice to me.
    And the Russian was very strong.
    And then we had to wait a long time till they can take us,
    because it was a big bombardment.
    Big air raid.
    And we had to wait.
    And a matter of fact, it was a white night.
    That is when the sun doesn't go really down.
    She goes down and up right away.
    It's daylight, always daylight.
    And so I think, in the early morning hour,
    they took us, by truck, to a--
    [NON-ENGLISH], a Gefangnis?
    Prison.
    Yeah.
    But a big prison.
    Yeah.
    And they parted us, the men and the women.
    OK.
    Oh, they separated.
    They separate us.
    And the woman with the children and all, and there
    were so many women and children there already.
    And I saw friends of mine.
    Matter of fact, it was a Professor Ferdinand Blumenthal,
    from Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, in Berlin,
    who was the cancer expert.
    And his family was there, too, with the women
    and the daughters.
    And so that was--
    Could you describe your life in Karaganda?
    In Karaganda, we had to work very hard.
    Because, if you don't work, you don't get bread in the evening.
    And for that little bread, that 100 gram
    bread in the evening-- what was not really 100 gram.
    It was only 80 gram, because they took away--
    but our own people.
    You mean they had to take one from the other?
    Yeah, yeah.
    Yeah, yeah, absolutely, they stole everything.
    They steal everything, you know?
    But in the summertime, we were on the fields.
    And in the wintertime, we had to spin.
    Spinning?
    Spinning wool from sheeps.
    At first, the men had to take off the wool,
    but it was not cleaned.
    So we had all kind of sickness on the hands.
    And we women, we was spinning with the hand spindle,
    with a wood spin, you know?
    So this way.
    Yeah.
    And we had to make so many, many grams to get in the evenings
    our 100 gram bread.
    If we didn't get that norm, so we didn't have anything.
    And later on, we had to--
    and then other people had to go to work
    gloves for the soldiers.
    You know, everything for the soldiers.
    To knit?
    Yeah.
    And of course, people had to work in the kitchen.
    And we had all do ourselves, you know?
    The whole camp was done by ourselves.
    When you say this-- how was this camp organized?
    Was it a barracks?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And what were living conditions like there?
    They were all the same.
    It was.
    Because it was in underground, more underground,
    because, in the winter and in the summer, are storms.
    Is calling buran.
    And when that buran came, you couldn't see anything anymore,
    only snow, snow, snow.
    You couldn't recognize where is the barrack
    and the door for the barrack.
    We had to shovel the snow.
    We were under snow, completely covered under the snow.
    Yeah.
    But in summertime, we had the sandstorms, you know?
    That was the [NON-ENGLISH].
    It was terrible.
    The sand came all over.
    You must see, that was all the steppe.
    It was no tree, you know?
    And only a little like a [NON-ENGLISH]??
    What is?
    River?
    Not a river.
    Stream.
    Yeah.
    Stream.
    Yeah, little stream came through.
    From them, we had the water.
    I mean we planted, then, the trees there.
    Yeah.
    Now, there were Russian guards here?
    The Russians?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, yeah, we were all guards with [NON-ENGLISH]
    and [NON-ENGLISH] and [NON-ENGLISH]..
    [NON-ENGLISH] is barbed wire.
    Yeah, barbed wires.
    And the--
    Bloodhounds?
    The bloodhounds.
    And on every 10 feet or 15 feet was a [NON-ENGLISH] with
    a soldier, with a gun.
    Was there ever any attempt made to escape?
    One time, they tried.
    But they couldn't do that.
    It is--
    In the wintertime, how did--
    From Russia, you cannot escape.
    No.
    That's true.
    No.
    Good point.
    Sure, it's not possible.
    But in other camps, what I heard?
    They tried, and they couldn't do it.
    No, they could not do it.
    No.
    Because those who tried from our camp were Romanian people--
    Yeah.
    --young people, who were real gonifs, you could say,
    you know?
    And they spoke a Russian like every other Russian did.
    The education was there.
    So they were-- really, they were Russians.
    They were.
    I mean you could not-- if you had a Russian and this fellow,
    you could not say he is not a Russian.
    And they did not manage.
    They did not get far.
    Nobody could get out of there.
    It was impossible.
    Was the food in Karaganda--
    Just all the same.
    It was-- it was worse.
    We had a soup in the morning and in the noontime.
    And that-- no.
    Yeah.
    In the morning, we had soup.
    I don't know.
    And that soup was really water and leaves.
    Some cabbage leaves.
    Yeah.
    And it was really not good.
    And they put, for sometime, some Leinsaat oil in.
    Linseed oil?
    Yeah, something like that.
    But anyway, we were terribly hungry.
    And we had 300 gram bread in the day, in the morning.
    And when we made the norm, 100 in the evening.
    And then you had the kasha.
    And then I had a kasha.
    As a matter of fact, I was a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    Terrible.
    What's [NON-ENGLISH]?
    That is, I had to serve.
    To serve the food for so and so many people.
    Yeah.
    So we had such a big [NON-ENGLISH]..
    What is [NON-ENGLISH]?
    I don't know.
    You know?
    To serve with?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Like a ladle.
    A measure.
    A measure.
    Yes, but a very big ladle.
    You know, I mean otherwise--
    Yeah, yeah, for one person.
    For one, so.
    And then they look.
    One time it gives noodles.
    If he has three noodles and he has four, five noodles,
    but you can't do that, otherwise.
    And then we had the kasha.
    That kasha, you would give not for the food, here, for the--
    Birds.
    Birds.
    Birds here.
    But that we had.
    And I had a [NON-ENGLISH],, from home, in silver.
    But they didn't recover that, the silver,
    because it was a different--
    Marking.
    --marking.
    It was from my grandparents inherited.
    And that is different.
    It was different, you know?
    And everybody got one soup.
    But the [NON-ENGLISH]--
    Ladle.
    The ladle.
    --yeah.
    Soup ladle.
    Yeah.
    Full of kasha.
    And it was noontime, I think.
    And in the evening, we had, again, soup, all the same.
    And again, the barracks, the same, the same sanitary?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Did they ever provide enough water?
    Yeah, no.
    We had to go with little pails, in the river, to take water.
    But then we had, already, laundry.
    But the sanitary conditions were outhouses.
    Oh, yeah.
    That was out.
    That was outhouses there.
    Yeah.
    In the winter weather, we had to go in a house, where--
    Outhouse.
    Yeah, outhouse from wood, you know,
    and [NON-ENGLISH] and holes.
    And that was it.
    It was very difficult, in the nighttime, to see you know?
    Sure.
    Sure.
    And it was terrible.
    And the snow.
    Gosh, it was terrible.
    And wolves came when it was very cold.
    You know, the wolves came.
    They were hungry-- in front of our barracks.
    How long were you in Karaganda?
    In Karaganda, we were from--
    No matter, they didn't come in front of our barrack.
    They came in front of the barbed wire.
    They couldn't get through the barbed wire.
    No, the barracks were [CROSS TALK]
    Yeah, OK.
    But the barbed wire kept the wolves out from us.
    But it was enough to frighten her.
    It was enough to frighten you.
    We only saw the big eyes of them.
    Yeah.
    It was terrible.
    How long were you in Karaganda?
    Until 1947.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And you came to Karaganda around 1942?
    Yeah.
    So you were there five years.
    Yeah.
    How did you retain any hope?
    You know, many people didn't have any hope.
    Even young people hanged themself.
    But I had always the feeling, when we come out,
    when we come out, you know?
    That is the only thing that, maybe, I trust God,
    that someway he will bring us out.
    Because I had a good friend there.
    She is married to a rabbi.
    But at this time, I didn't know that he is a rabbi.
    And she came from Litva.
    Lithuania.
    Lithuania, from the Hauptstadt.
    And she is now in Basel.
    And she came with a baby in her arm,
    because her husband was already in Shanghai.
    And she gave birth to the baby on the way.
    They took her off the train in Moscow.
    Yeah.
    They must've detained her there.
    She was on the way, to Shanghai, to--
    To her husband.
    --join her husband.
    So she gave birth, in the seventh month,
    to the baby in Moscow.
    Yeah.
    And she was not prepared.
    I mean all her luggage, everything was gone.
    So she had absolutely nothing for the baby.
    So we all put together, to survive, that boy.
    He is a beautiful boy and a doctor, today,
    and a very nice boy.
    And she has two nice boys, too.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    After-- later on.
    So she joined you in Karaganda?
    Yeah.
    Along the way?
    In Gorky, she joined us already.
    Yeah.
    So she was not permitted, to go further, to Shanghai.
    No.
    No.
    Because the war broke out.
    Yeah, so she joined us in Gorky.
    And as a matter of fact, I taught him
    the first word in German, because I said, always,
    when you come to your father, you can't talk Russian only.
    You have to talk German, too.
    So you know, that way?
    And she was very, very sick.
    She had--
    Was it typhoid?
    Typhus, yeah, twice, and he has once.
    And before she arrived, she said to me, Helga, when one of us
    passed away, you take the children out
    or I take the children out.
    You know, we had always in mind, we have to come out here.
    It's impossible.
    They didn't want us to go.
    They want us to send to Birobidzhan, in Russia.
    That is a terrible, far east, terrible little country, where
    they put all the Jews together.
    They tried to make the Jewish state
    A Jewish state there.
    And such kind of things came to us, you know?
    And then other woman said, too, when
    she got sick, please, Helga, take my son out
    when you go out.
    So we had always in mind to come out.
    Yeah.
    But through the five years, day by day, what do you think
    kept you going?
    My daughter, that I should save her.
    Because she got always brainwashed.
    Not only she-- all the kids got brainwashed.
    And wonder?
    Nobody believed them.
    She got one time--
    She was brainwashed by the Russians?
    By the Russians, yes.
    And one time, she got really hysteric.
    And she shouted to the officers.
    And the officer said, why is that girl shouting to me?
    Why is she shouting, when she said to him,
    in Russian, I don't believe anything what you are talking--
    anything.
    Because he said to her, you will see, when your father is here,
    we will take you home.
    She said, I have no home.
    And I don't believe anything on you--
    that way, you know.
    And that is what Russian soldiers don't can take,
    when somebody shout at them, you know?
    Especially children-- they are very
    soft when it comes to children.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I mean, if I would have been a grown-up, that time,
    I would have been in a real jam.
    The [CROSS TALK]
    You know, but as I was a child--
    Yeah.
    --a child was forgiven.
    Yeah, so I mean they have a very soft heart for children.
    But when-- matter of fact, we were stealing, of course.
    When we are on the field, we were terribly hungry.
    And one time, it was cold outside.
    And we were for the harvest.
    And were carrots on the field.
    And all the people around me said, oh, God, we
    are so hungry.
    We are so hungry.
    And I said, my goodness, they left so many carrots
    on the field.
    I go with a basket, and I took the carrots.
    But I didn't hear that the people shouted to me,
    come back, come back.
    But I looked up.
    And the biggest boss was standing in front of me.
    What are you doing here?
    I said, we are all hungry.
    How come is that you are hungry?
    Didn't you get your soup, your breakfast?
    I said, yes.
    But still, we are hungry and frozen.
    He took the basket out, you know?
    Dumped it, yeah.
    Yeah, he dumped it.
    And said, go back to your brigadier and tell him that you
    have to stay in the [NON-ENGLISH] the whole night.
    You know the [NON-ENGLISH] is a prison.
    Special prison.
    A special prison.
    In a prison, a small prison.
    Yeah.
    So, and I went back.
    And I told, what should we do?
    What should we do?
    And I had friends there, who were good to that brigadier.
    That brigadier was an Italian man.
    And they said, you can't do that.
    This is impossible.
    You can't do it.
    So he managed me not to bring in the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    But I was shaking, always.
    I'm sure.
    Did you know when the war was over?
    Yes.
    How did you know?
    Somebody came from outside.
    I think it was a former Polish soldier, who said
    he came from German mothers.
    And he said, suddenly, you know, I, have the news.
    I have the news.
    The war is over.
    And I went to the place where we had to spin, you know,
    the wool.
    And I got sick and tired of that.
    And I threw that out.
    And I said [NON-ENGLISH].
    Now, it's finished.
    The war is finished.
    And I don't work anymore here.
    So that brigadier was--
    he was a Jew, by himself, but he was so terrible to me.
    He wanted to bring it up that I did that.
    But I was right.
    An hour later, somebody came and said,
    we have to come to a whole place.
    Around-- it was May.
    The sun was shining.
    And this friend, the rabbi's wife, she
    was a very well-educated woman.
    She was a high school teacher.
    And she made a speech but with so much enthusiasm.
    And I'm telling you, everybody was crying.
    Like I think only the Eastern Jews have that emotion,
    you know?
    But she has.
    Speaking of that, how did you manage
    to communicate with each other?
    Each one spoke different languages.
    Russian.
    So you managed to learn Russian?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I learned already in Tallinn.
    I had a very nice teacher when the Russian came in, because I
    thought, by myself, I will not get [NON-ENGLISH] from them.
    I have to know what they are talking.
    What's going on.
    What's going on.
    Now, you mentioned that you were in Karaganda until 1947.
    Yes.
    Why did you remain there between the end of the war and--
    We were not free!
    We had to work, very hard, and they didn't want us free.
    And we made a hunger strike.
    And it is forbidden.
    After five days, they have to-- or after three days,
    they have to report it to Alma-Ata.
    That was the capital of Kazakhstan.
    That is 400 miles off the border of China.
    Yeah.
    And then, they have to bring it to Moscow.
    And the officers from Moscow came and said,
    what's going on here?
    Now, first of all, this Mrs. Adler came.
    And she was talking to them and told them
    that we are so many Jews and us.
    And we have to get free.
    After all, we can't stand it anymore.
    There was a hunger strike, because they took our men away.
    That was at first, yeah.
    You are right.
    Because they took our men for the coal mines.
    It's a coal mine, yeah.
    To work or?
    Yes, they took them completely away, out of our camp,
    and into the coal mines.
    Yeah.
    And so the women organized a hunger strike?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    The women and the rest of the people who stayed behind.
    I mean they only took the able.
    Able-bodied.
    --able bodied, naturally.
    Not everybody could work in a coal mine
    or had the strength left for that.
    Yeah.
    Only those who had still the strength.
    And we didn't know where the men are.
    They didn't say anything.
    But it came, little by little, out through the people
    who were-- this convoy.
    So convoy is it?
    We came always with a convoy.
    And the people who could go without convoy
    and were working in the cities or around,
    they brought us all the news.
    Yeah.
    That was the communication.
    They were allowed to communicate with you
    when they came to Karaganda?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, when they came, they were standing in the camp.
    Now, we had-- wait a minute.
    We had people in our camp who had
    jobs where they were sent to.
    And they were the trustworthy people who could go without a--
    Convoy.
    --guard, without a guard.
    So they came back.
    And those people could--
    I mean, they could not go out of their way.
    They had to travel exactly this way.
    I mean, if they would have traveled that way,
    they would have taken a--
    chance?
    --a chance, rather.
    So I mean, so long as they did exactly what they
    were told to do, so the Russians trusted them.
    So I mean they went into the city of Karaganda
    and had business there to do and so on for the Russians.
    It was all for the Russians that they were working.
    So when they came, then, back to our camp,
    that's how we got the news.
    One thing that just occurred to me--
    did they ever make a distinction?
    There were Jews and non-Jews.
    But these were all basically foreign prisoners.
    Right.
    Did they ever make a distinction between Jews and non-Jews.
    Yeah.
    The Russians?
    Very often.
    How did they do that?
    They call us [RUSSIAN],, the Juden.
    Yeah?
    The [NON-ENGLISH].
    And [NON-ENGLISH].
    And one time, when we said, but we
    heard that the prisoners of war are going home,
    why can't we go?
    He spoke German, that man.
    It was a polit commissar.
    And he said to me, in German, yeah, [GERMAN]..
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah, yeah.
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    --spice.
    Yeah.
    Did they ever threaten you with sending you
    to Germany or to the extermination?
    No.
    No.
    No, no, no, no, no, no.
    No, we didn't know anything about the extermination camps
    that time.
    No.
    No.
    We heard about what's going that the--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    Yeah, from Minsk [NON-ENGLISH] lager.
    I mean, you know--
    From concentration camp.
    Camp, who went through concentration camp and got--
    they run away and run over to the Russians.
    And then the Russians interned them.
    Yes.
    And then the Russians sent them to us.
    So from those people, we got the news what was going on.
    But not straight, actually.
    And they stayed longer than me in that camp.
    Isn't that terrible?
    How did you finally--
    how were you finally able to get released from Karaganda?
    So after this--
    The mission, they all came from Moscow after the hunger--
    when the hunger strike was on.
    Hunger strike.
    And Mrs. Adler said to them that we
    are German Jews and Austrian Jews and so,
    and we heard about the concentration camps and so.
    And she was sure that her family is not alive anymore.
    Which was true.
    She is the only survivor of the whole family.
    Yeah.
    And why we are staying here?
    And so he said, make a list where that people belongs.
    So she made the list from all of us And gave him.
    By belongs, where they came from?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    German and Austrian and French and all kind of.
    Nationalities.
    Yeah.
    So she did it.
    And once, it was in November '46,
    they came and took out only 14 people, I think.
    And we know where they are going.
    But they took them out, because one woman
    was a Swiss nationality.
    But she was married to a German doctor, a Jewish doctor.
    And he got killed.
    And had a daughter there, and the daughter,
    they took the daughter away.
    But as a matter of fact--
    That was in Russia.
    I mean, they were together in Russia.
    They came to Russia.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And later on, she was--
    maybe through her relatives in Switzerland, they find her.
    And they freed 15 or about 18 people.
    That was the first one.
    Different nationalities.
    Yeah, different nationalities, and they
    went through terrible things and came out.
    And they went-- those who came out, with those,
    we gave messages.
    Yeah.
    But by mouth.
    Yeah, OK, but they tried, then, to contact--
    Our people.
    --our people outside.
    Even the one00
    Those where we knew that there must
    be families outside, still.
    And one said to contact my brother in--
    In Israel.
    Or I have a girlfriend.
    And she knew that her mother is in America.
    She was there with her father.
    And so he contacted the mother, here.
    Right.
    Other people was in Sweden.
    So that she knew that her daughter is still alive.
    And other people came to Sweden, back.
    And you know, that--
    Yes.
    I mean, so this way, it started to spread that we are alive.
    Yeah.
    Because everybody, here, they were sitting shiva already.
    They didn't think that we are alive.
    Yeah, sure.
    They contact Tallinn.
    And Tallinn said--
    Nobody survived.
    And nobody knows that.
    Nobody is there anymore, you know?
    Now, when you were called to be released, I assume, you know,
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    That was really funny.
    No.
    I went to the men's barrack, to my husband.
    I don't know what I had to say to him.
    And suddenly, one officer came, with a list
    on me, and talked about 100 persons,
    the name of 100 persons.
    And under that 100 persons were our name, too.
    And we didn't know what it means.
    We should go in the barracks, there and there,
    and pack on the things, because we are going away.
    It was in January.
    Yeah, it was January 17.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Yeah.
    Yeah, in 19, we went away.
    In 19, we left.
    It was high snow.
    It was the coldest winter what was ever been.
    And so we packed our things, you know.
    But I'm telling you, it was terrible.
    We had many, many tears, because to think
    of that people who was left over,
    that were only 100 Germans.
    And we were with the German war prisoners.
    Prisoners, war prisoners who went back.
    To Germany.
    So they had been German soldiers?
    Yeah.
    They was-- right.
    They was German.
    Next to our camp was a very big--
    Soldier.
    --camp with German soldiers.
    They were war prisoners.
    That's right.
    And those were sent back home.
    So we went, with them, home.
    And we were supposed, sometimes, to sing when we go.
    We went to the work, you know?
    And they were singing, too.
    And when we crossed, there, in singing form,
    we asked for where they are and what.
    Maybe they come from a town where our people were,
    you know?
    Yeah.
    But once our convoy felt that is what we did it.
    And it was forbidden.
    So he tried-- don't talk, don't talk.
    You've got--
    You know?
    And when you were told that you had to pack up,
    were you hopeful or?
    [AUDIO OUT]
    In three pieces, I put the paper,
    and only that we are alive.
    And we three put our names on there, that they see.
    The letter of my mother came back, and I broke down.
    And then came the letter of my brother.
    And he told me what happened, you know,
    that my in-laws are safe, but our family
    is gone, even my uncles and aunts.
    And so in this time, I felt terrible.
    And then I was inside crying always.
    And I thought, always, maybe I can find my mother on the way,
    here, in Russia, because they said she came to Riga.
    But it was not true.
    She came to Sobibor and were, right away, killed.
    But I had always hoped, maybe, I find her somewhere.
    It was a terrible way back for me, terrible.
    And that--
    How did you get back from Karaganda?
    At first--
    In the same way, with those trains, with those.
    Yeah.
    But at first, by--
    Cattle trains.
    What, it was cattle train.
    --by truck--
    Well, first, by truck.
    --to the train station.
    --to the train station, and then by cattle train.
    Yeah.
    And we had to-- we had to build our train--
    provide it with wood.
    Well, just--
    That we can leave.
    You know, one--
    You have to build-- you have to build some form of beds.
    Yeah.
    Yeah, on the train.
    Where did the train take you?
    The train took us through whole Russia, over the Volga,
    through the Ural, Irkutsk and--
    Brest-Litovsk.
    Yeah, Brest-Litovsk came last--
    Tashkent.
    Just the whole Russia, we went.
    And where did you-- where did it take you as the end stop?
    The end stop was--
    To Poland.
    Wait a minute.
    No, wait a minute, in Brest, you had to-- they had to make
    the new-- other trains, because from there on-- you know,
    the Russians have a wider--
    Space for the [NON-ENGLISH].
    The rails are different in Russia
    than they were in Poland.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    And so whole Poland, and that was terrible, too.
    The way from Russia, through Oriel--
    Oriel was formerly a nice city.
    It was really nothing left anymore.
    Nothing was left.
    And from there, came all the children and women.
    And they thought that we are prisoners.
    My husband came in a German soldier's coat.
    Coat.
    Can you imagine?
    How did he get a German soldier's coat?
    From the Russian.
    From the Russians.
    He had nothing to wear, so [CROSS TALK]
    Because the soldiers died.
    Even on the way, they died very much.
    Because it was so cold that they even, when your scarf,
    if you lost your scarf, your hair was iced,
    on the [NON-ENGLISH],, on the wood from the cattle wagon,
    during the night.
    And yeah, and they came and brought us bread and milk.
    But from the [NON-ENGLISH],, the holes from the--
    Ground.
    Yeah, I mean, it was--
    I mean it was terrible.
    And they said-- we said, but why are you
    so friendly to us, work people?
    And they said, but you are human being.
    But can you-- you were prisoners, too, here.
    The Nazis took everything from us and burned everything.
    But you are not the Nazis.
    I thought that is.
    But I mean, the Russian people has a good heart.
    Yeah.
    You know, they didn't know that we are Jews.
    Did the train that you took-- the train was going to take you
    back to Germany, right?
    Yeah, it took us.
    Did you ask to go--
    Six weeks.
    Six weeks.
    And always, they stopped and they stopped
    and the children had to go to look
    for coal for the locomotive, that she goes.
    So they were stealing always.
    We were always stealing.
    Otherwise, they couldn't go, you Know
    You couldn't survive there if you were not--
    if you didn't steal or if you didn't use your elbows.
    Of course, yeah.
    That is-- yeah.
    Did you ask to go back to Germany?
    No.
    They automatically--
    I didn't know.
    Automatically, because I was German.
    Right.
    Where did you--
    Now, wait a minute.
    When you-- when we had to fill out--
    Yeah.
    --where do you want to go, when we got those questionnaires--
    Yeah.
    --we always filled them out, back to Germany.
    Because we knew this was the only way
    we would be able to get out of Russia.
    Yeah.
    If we would--
    At first, when we asked--
    --say we want to go back to Estonia,
    like what I would have liked, as a child, because I--
    Her childhood was there.
    Sure.
    We never would have gone out-- come out.
    So I mean the grown-ups naturally realized that.
    And they always, when they had to fill out, where do you
    want to go--
    back to Germany was always the answer.
    And at first I said, back home.
    Where is your home?
    When you came back, did you come back to Berlin?
    It was, first, we had to come on the Russian side.
    First, we came to Frankfurt on the Oder.
    And then, yeah, in the camp [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And from there, we came to German camp, East German camp.
    And they want to bring us to East Germany in a camp.
    But my husband and other gentleman
    said, but we are Berliner.
    And we belong, before the war, to the Berlin congregation.
    And he said, then we can call.
    So he called, that officer, what it was.
    He called and said, [NON-ENGLISH]..
    Big deal.
    And then they said, so let them talk to us.
    Somebody has to come on the telephone.
    So my husband went to the telephone and the other men.
    And one of them told them where we are and so.
    And they said, tell them they have
    to organize a train to Berlin.
    And we will--
    Meet the train.
    --meet the train in Berlin.
    So my husband said, but many people are from East Prussia,
    from West Prussia, and from Silesia.
    Can we take them?
    Take them all.
    There are 30 goyims with us.
    Everybody has to come to us.
    This was the Kultusgemeinde in Berlin?
    In Berlin, right.
    Now, I remember the last time--
    In the [NON-ENGLISH] Strasse.
    No, [NON-ENGLISH].
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah, [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah, yeah.
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    Yeah.
    But wait, remember when we talked last time,
    I asked you how you felt when you first
    came back into Germany.
    Yeah.
    And you told me about an officer, a German officer
    that you met and how you reacted to him.
    Do you remember?
    German officer?
    You met a German officer, and you were so emotional,
    you didn't-- you--
    Oh, I said, everything was down, shut down.
    You jumped on him.
    When was it?
    What did the officer know that was--
    German.
    It's a German.
    Germans were there.
    And they said to me, oh, it's terrible.
    Look, it's terrible.
    Everything is down.
    And I said, [NON-ENGLISH]
    Well, after you went through all Russia
    and you went through all Poland, and you
    saw there was nothing left.
    I mean, like we were standing, with our train, in the station,
    near Warsaw.
    Yeah.
    Right.
    And everything was--
    And everything was gone.
    Unbelievable.
    Unbelievable.
    Only at night time, you saw, from some holes,
    some lights coming out.
    I mean, when you saw this, I mean--
    You have not any feeling.
    You have no feelings for them.
    No, I mean, how did you-- how did you feel when you came back
    to Berlin at this time?
    In this time, I felt really lost.
    Because I lost everybody.
    I felt lost.
    I was not at home anymore.
    It's not my home anymore.
    You know?
    We came through the Jüdische Gemeinde in--
    to the--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    And there were--
    How they got at the beginning?
    Like you have now in Austria, those
    camps, when the people from Russia come now?
    Yeah.
    That's what was there in the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    That was in front of the gate [NON-ENGLISH]..
    They took out from that houses all the Germans.
    And when we came, were all Polish people there,
    Polish-Jewish there.
    From Ost, from the East, most of the people there from the East.
    They were camps where everybody who survive, who survived,
    was coming.
    Came in there.
    We got an apartment for seven people.
    Not apartment, we got one room for seven people.
    Yeah?
    And with [NON-ENGLISH] and--
    The army cots and army blankets.
    Yeah.
    But we were--
    It was better than the wood.
    And very happy, you know, and we heard in our dream,
    always, the poof from the locomotive that we can
    reach the locomotive in time.
    Because we could go out, already,
    because to have the sanitary condition,
    we went, in that cold, under the wagon, men and women,
    all together.
    We didn't have any feelings anymore.
    And that was the time when my daughter got--
    Cold bite.
    Frostbite.
    Frostbite all over.
    Frostbite here, all over.
    This was on the train coming through Russia.
    Coming back, yeah.
    Coming back train, we--
    We didn't have inside any kind of a thing,
    so we had to go under the train.
    We only could go when this train was standing.
    Otherwise, you couldn't go.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And I had a terrible frostbite on the feet, too, again.
    Before, in Russia, I had the frostbite
    on the hands and the feet.
    But now, I had it on the feet, again.
    Because the wagon was very cold.
    And in the winter, were are no glass in, know no Fenster,
    no windows.
    Well, the thing was, even when you heated those little stoves,
    when you were standing in front of it, here, it was hot,
    and then your backside was freezing.
    Yeah.
    When you came back to the Kultusgemeinde in Berlin,
    who did you find there?
    It were-- it was very little people.
    Not many people there.
    And--
    A few survivors of camps--
    Yeah, from concentration camps.
    --of concentration camps, or those who were--
    some were in mixed marriage--
    Yeah, yeah.
    --who managed--
    One is still [NON-ENGLISH] of the Jüdischen Gemeinde--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Galinski?
    Galinski, yeah.
    And they met us on the-- matter of fact,
    they met us on the Schlesischer Bahnhof.
    And all the goyims were standing and crying.
    That's what I was going to ask.
    Did you have any contact, at that time, with Germans?
    And so they were standing around us and crying and crying
    bitterly.
    Yeah.
    But they didn't know we were Jews.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Well, what did they answer to that?
    Did they answer?
    No.
    They were crying.
    What should they answer?
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    But surely, [NON-ENGLISH]
    [NON-ENGLISH] die Nazis haben das gemacht, nicht wahr?
    Otherwise, we wouldn't have gone to Russia.
    That's right.
    And what-- yeah.
    Yeah.
    It was not our free will to go to Russia.
    It was only an interregnum to Estonia and then to America.
    Yeah.
    But America didn't let us come in.
    That was it.
    When you came back to Berlin, did you
    intend to leave Germany?
    Yeah, of course.
    Of course.
    And as I said, of course, you will have a German passport.
    And you are German.
    And we refused.
    We said, no.
    No.
    We don't want a German passport anymore.
    How did you manage to leave Germany then?
    That was--
    Sorry.
    We made application, always.
    And I had my in-laws, here, you know,
    my mother and father-in-law was alive at that time.
    They had come straight here?
    They had come.
    They came here through my brother-in-law
    and sister-in-law.
    My brother-in-law is a doctor here.
    And his sister was [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And she came at first as a servant, here,
    and then came the mother and father.
    And we were supposed to come, too.
    Now, wait.
    Wait a second.
    How did you manage to leave Germany?
    You applied for a visa, again?
    Yeah, I applied.
    And everybody-- but we came 1951.
    We had to stay in Germany so long, because the Americans
    didn't trust us.
    Why we couldn't get a plane, right away,
    from Russia to Germany back?
    You know, it was terrible what we went through.
    I'm telling you.
    And even, I was very angry.
    I with us, together, were people from--
    Christian people, whom I couldn't trust.
    Because I know they were Nazis or so, you know?
    Not Germans, but from Lithuania and Estonia and Latvia--
    Latvia not Estonia, Latvia.
    And I could see that, really, on their face.
    And they were lying.
    And we heard them talking, on the boat, in Russian.
    And we know that people got, in front of us, the visa.
    But we should wait.
    We had to wait.
    And we asked for the help, the Joint and HIAS,
    to give us the visa.
    So suddenly, I was very sick all the time.
    I came very sick home from Russia.
    And I had a big operation and complications.
    And till now, I am not so well.
    Sorry.
    I never recovered.
    But I had to work very hard, here,
    to make my life, because nobody give us anything.
    When you say that, now you lived-- that's 1947 to '51--
    Yeah.
    --four years.
    Did you live in Berlin for those four years?
    No.
    We went by the Luftbrücke the airplanes.
    The Russians shut down all the borders.
    Yeah?
    And the French and English and American airplanes
    brought food and coal to Berlin.
    Right.
    Berlin was closed.
    And with such coal plane, we went to West Germany,
    at first to Frankfurt am Main Flughafen.
    And then they brought us to the French border.
    But we wanted to go back to Frankfurt,
    because I had relatives in Frankfurt.
    And then we went to Nuremberg, Fürth,
    to live there till '51, because my husband was
    by the [NON-ENGLISH] from [NON-ENGLISH] The American
    people did that, you know?
    I mean the government.
    And he was working there.
    How did he get that job?
    How did he come to that?
    Through relatives of mine.
    Here?
    In Germany.
    Yeah.
    In Germany.
    Because she's still there.
    Yeah.
    She's [NON-ENGLISH].
    And she made it that we can get a job there.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    So you stayed in Nuremberg?
    Yeah.
    What was it like living among the Germans those four years?
    At first, it was terrible for me, a terrible feeling.
    But we had, luckily, a place--
    two rooms by a family, a German family,
    who was a former Social Democrat, and even
    the parents of that woman.
    The man was first violin in the opera orchestra
    and in the philharmonic orchestra.
    And we got really friends.
    Because they treated us very, very nice.
    And we are good friends even till now.
    But after all, I had to prove them, at first.
    So my daughter didn't want to go to school.
    She said, I can't stand to sit in school
    between people who was--
    that their parents killed my family
    and my grandma and my grandpa.
    And I said, yes, I can understand.
    So luckily, through these people where I lived,
    I met an international governess.
    Then she learned everything in English from her,
    because she was an English governess.
    And had the [NON-ENGLISH].
    That was it.
    But nearby, she learned sewing.
    And she was a dressmaker then.
    She learned dressmaker by--
    The ORT school.
    --the ORT school.
    Yeah.
    You know?
    And that was-- that what makes us survive in America.
    When you got your visa to come to America, how--
    when you first landed here, where
    did you go that first day when you first
    came here off the boat?
    Look, we came through the Joint or the HIAS or somewhere
    and with a soldiers' ship, you know, former soldiers' ship.
    A transport ship.
    A transport ship.
    And everybody had to work there.
    On the ship?
    On the ship.
    Of course, it was nothing to sit down.
    And she, my daughter, was working in the kindergarten.
    And I was working with my husband in a little office.
    And I was typing [NON-ENGLISH] for the daily news,
    the newspaper on the ship.
    Yeah.
    What's going on in.
    And my husband was a [NON-ENGLISH] for that.
    So for that reason, I had, for once, a chair to sit.
    After a good number of years.
    Yeah.
    And then we came here.
    And my sister-in-law, with her husband,
    came to greet us on the boat.
    So when we came from the boat, because the HIAS took us over.
    And we were supposed to stay in a room from the HIAS.
    I don't know.
    It was not the hotel.
    It was a house.
    But we didn't do it.
    We went to my mother-in-law.
    And we stayed, for the first time, there.
    And later on, we worked.
    You know, till we worked?
    My daughter, I bought her to a children's camp.
    In the summer.
    In the summer, because it came.
    It was summer.
    This was May, and for the summer.
    And it was very hard to get a job for her,
    because our own people said, who had the camp,
    oh, with such English.
    But she had a very nice King's English.
    We such English, I can't do it with my children,
    with our children here.
    So I said, forget about.
    And we went on our own.
    My father-in-law was working, before he died, in the Blue
    Cart, Aufbau Blue Cart.
    And through these people, I get a recommendation somewhere
    to Italian family, who has a camp in the Poconos.
    Yeah.
    And they took her but for nothing, all right?
    But anyway, she was out of that city.
    Because I saw that city terrible in the summertime.
    You can hardly breathe, you know?
    And she was not so very well either.
    She had some kind of sickness, even there, in the lung,
    in the lung, had such things, pneumonia.
    And I look for her.
    Then when she came back from there, she was very nice.
    She treated children.
    And they were-- so the parents came for the parents' day,
    and they met her.
    And they asked her, what are you doing?
    So she is dressmaker.
    She learned dressmaker.
    But she was very unhappy at first.
    But I said that is an international business.
    And that survived always--
    That's right, yeah.
    --everywhere.
    And so they said to her, when you come back, come to us.
    So she stopped.
    And later on-- at first, she had trouble with other people.
    And then later--
    They had a factory.
    I didn't want to go to work in a factory.
    So I worked first in other places.
    But just our own people can be the meanest bosses there are.
    Oh, they are terrible.
    And I didn't like the way they were treating me and so on.
    So then, on the end, I did land up in that factory
    and worked there.
    The [? Blaut's ?] factory.
    How did you and your husband get a job?
    My husband got a job in his line but very late.
    In his line, you mean [NON-ENGLISH]??
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah, OK.
    Yeah, yeah, and metal, metal.
    Metals.
    Metals.
    Metals.
    He's an old metal--
    Yeah.
    Expert-- experience.
    Expert.
    Yeah.
    Expert.
    Yeah.
    And I was working all kinds of things,
    at first, in a luncheonette, in Far Rockaway.
    And later on, I was sewing lampshades, you know,
    what was so in fashion.
    And then they laid off everybody.
    And I had to work, because I had to eat, yes?
    And I was very unhappy.
    And she said to me, call me back.
    But that was nonsense.
    I couldn't do that.
    Then I came through the self-help to veils,
    to make on the veils--
    put rhinestone on and flowers and all kind of nonsense.
    In my line, I couldn't find anything.
    I had not the right push.
    And later on, I worked in a factory--
    not really factory.
    It was for--
    I designed children's sweaters.
    And it was the time when the sweaters were embroidered
    with all kinds of things, and then even adult sweaters
    and so.
    But these people was not very nice.
    And soon, she didn't have any work.
    So we were out.
    And then I find work in a--
    Lamp shade.
    No. --custom made by Suzanne custom made dresses
    in [NON-ENGLISH].
    Knitting.
    Knitting dresses-- knit dresses--
    Knitted.
    --as a finisher.
    And this didn't work out very long, because,
    as soon as they get--
    they get not busy anymore, so I had to go out.
    And then I was sitting for 17 years in a store--
    not a store.
    It was in an [NON-ENGLISH] studio for custom-made,
    hand-loomed dresses and suits and that way,
    everything custom-made.
    We had all the customers from the Park Avenue and Madison
    Avenue, very big shots.
    And I was working there till the boss went bankrupt.
    Bankrupt.
    And then my children said, mother, now is enough.
    You've worked enough of your life.
    What do you think was the greatest adjustment
    that you had to make, here, when you came here?
    When I came in the country?
    Yeah, to America.
    Although I don't know [INAUDIBLE]..
    Was language difficult?
    At first, yes, it was a barrier, because our language
    from school and [INAUDIBLE] was different.
    --Germany?
    Yes, I was back.
    And I took the cure for my health
    in Wildbad, in Kissingen. But I don't go back anymore,
    because I hate the Germans.
    I can't stand it.
    I have a girlfriend there now she is back to Baden-Baden.
    And not really Altersheim, but a senior citizen home.
    And I had to see her last year.
    But I was very happy to go back to Switzerland.
    I go alway-- every year to Switzerland to cure myself.
    Otherwise I couldn't stay that way.
    How do you feel about the Wiedergutmachung?
    The idea of the Wiedergutmachung?
    The idea of the Wiedergutmachung is the right thing,
    because I know that in former time after the First World War,
    many people were working for Wiedergutmachung for the East
    Prussia, because they were the farmers,
    and so they lost everything.
    But didn't do it.
    So it was a big surprise when we find out they are doing that.
    But for that reason, I survived here now,
    because I can pay everything for my comfort and for my health.
    Right.
    Well, on social security you couldn't live.
    No.
    On social security I couldn't live, no.
    But I get from Germany that.
    Otherwise, I couldn't live.
    I mean, I was born in Breslau, right, on the October 30--
    1931.
    And in 1935 I left Breslau and I joined my grandparents
    in Prague.
    And I stayed with my grandparents in Prague.
    And I was actually very happy there with them.
    And I went in Prague to the nursery school.
    Who took you to Prague?
    You took-- no, grandmother picked me up.
    Grandmother picked you up.
    Grandmother picked me up.
    And I stayed with them.
    And I mean, altogether, I mean, I had a very good time
    with them in Prague.
    And then we were together in Carlsbad, where--
    I mean, that were very good times for me from growing up.
    And then, in 1936, I joined my parents in Berlin at that time.
    They had moved from Breslau to Berlin.
    Right, yeah.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    And I picked you up.
    You picked me up, right.
    But I mean, that's when I joined you again.
    And in Berlin, I started school--
    [CROSS TALK]
    --for a very short--
    for a very short time, because we
    Jewish kids were not allowed anymore to go to school there,
    and this was--
    The Goldschmidt School--
    Goldschmidt Schule, which was a Jewish-- a Jewish school
    in Grunewald.
    Yeah.
    That's where you went after you couldn't go to the Volksschule.
    Well, I never could go, because I was too young, right?
    So that was the time when I should have been in school.
    Right, OK.
    So I went for a couple of months there till we--
    until I was-- I always was sick.
    So I was sick there again, so I couldn't go to school.
    And then we left Germany in February.
    Let me ask you something.
    During those years-- let's see-- you were born in '31.
    So let's say you were six and seven years old when
    you were in this school.
    No, wait a minute.
    Six years.
    Six, seven.
    Did you ever have any--
    did you have any non-Jewish friends at the time?
    No.
    No, OK.
    No.
    Well, I was in nursery school, and then I was there.
    But this was all [INAUDIBLE] strict Jewish.
    I mean, we couldn't mix anymore.
    OK.
    That's--
    So I grew up in a completely Jewish environment--
    Yeah.
    --I would say.
    And then, from there, we went to Tallinn.
    And then I naturally went into the Estonian--
    no, first the English College.
    Yeah.
    Estonia.
    You was the first time in the English College.
    First we went for one year--
    One year or one-half year until--
    Till the Russians came.
    Yeah.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    How did you know Russian?
    No, that time I didn't know Russian.
    That time I learned Estonian.
    Estonian and English.
    Estonian and English, because that's why my parents put me
    into the English College.
    Because--
    I mean it was called English College,
    but it was, I mean, the grammar school.
    But it was English speaking.
    They had that French lyceum and English-speaking schools.
    And so the different schools in Estonia.
    You see, the private schools where
    you could go to, which naturally,
    when the Russians came, was abolished.
    And you had only one type of a school.
    And you went to the English one because you
    had for us to go to America.
    That's it.
    That's right.
    That's why I went to the English one.
    The French lyceum was right--
    of course, from my window, I could see it.
    It would have been easier for me.
    But as we were-- my parents wanted
    to come here to the States.
    They sent me farther away to the English one.
    [CROSS TALK]
    Yeah, sure.
    Well, that made sense under the circumstances.
    All right.
    What do you remember about Tallinn?
    It was beautiful there.
    You had a nice life there?
    Yes, it was a beautiful life there.
    She had dancing lessons.
    I had dancing lessons.
    I had everything what a child needs.
    I didn't miss anything, really.
    I mean, my parents never made me feel
    that they going through hard times or anything like this.
    They always tried to give me a happy childhood,
    and tried to keep the hard things away
    from me, like every parent does with their children.
    Do you remember at all having to leave Tallinn?
    Yeah, well, that I remember, when we went to, from Tallinn,
    when we went to Tartu.
    That I remember.
    And then we stayed there.
    We stayed in a hotel and had not our apartment and all this,
    naturally.
    Did you understand why you had to leave Tallinn?
    Yes, yes.
    I understood.
    Because the Russians had come in,
    and we, as foreigners, had to leave the capital of Estonia.
    As a child, through a child's eyes,
    were you upset at having to leave
    your friends and your school?
    Most probably, yes.
    Oh, yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    Because I mean you'll--
    a child never likes to be--
    even here, you don't like to be transferred from one school
    to the other, and leave your friends behind.
    So this-- I mean, this would have been the same thing,
    I mean, that I didn't--
    I had to make new friends again in Tartu,
    which was very hard, because there I did not go to school.
    There I had some private tutoring,
    because they sent me from the school from Tallinn,
    they sent me-- they sent me all the papers and everything,
    so that when I come back that I could just continue there
    and wouldn't miss anything.
    Right, right.
    I just want to ask your mother about the--
    The issue was that she was terrible white and undertone
    at that time, because it was not her surroundings.
    She was taken out.
    And mentally it infect her.
    My husband couldn't understand why,
    but I understood very well.
    She didn't want to learn with that teacher alone.
    And she want to go back to school with the children.
    And that infected her mentally.
    And she was so wild, and so resented.
    It was terrible.
    I just wanted a different point of view.
    Yeah.
    Sure.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    In Tartu, did you adjust yourself to--
    well the child always adjusted I mean
    the grown ups have a much harder time than children.
    True, true.
    And, well, do you remember the trip now,
    when you were taken the second time from Tallinn.
    Do you remember the trip across--
    Oh, yes.
    Yes.
    There I remember everything.
    I mean, as I said before already,
    when we were interned first, in that--
    I think probably I have it even in here, if I'm not mistaken.
    I mean I-- we saw how-- we children, we got out.
    You see, we had to stay in the barracks.
    And we were not supposed to go out and see
    what was going on outside.
    But we heard there was a big air raid.
    So naturally, children are children.
    Also we somehow sneaked out, and we did see--
    And one there was a poof--
    Yes.
    And we did see Tallinn burn.
    So we, from the children, we heard about it.
    So we saw-- I mean, we could see that the Germans
    are right there.
    And the bombardment and everything,
    that they are right there.
    So in that respect, I was happy that they tried to take us away
    from that camp, because I didn't--
    I mean, to get away from the front.
    Sure.
    Because I could see the Germans were right there.
    I mean, naturally, as a child, I didn't know the danger
    of being Jewish, the way.
    I only knew the danger of the bombs and of the Germans
    altogether.
    But that happened in Dorpat that time,
    when you saw all the-- in the park.
    We went in the park, and all the banks
    were new painted in yellow.
    And she start to shake, and then say, Mutti, Mutti, take me
    away.
    Take me away.
    The Germans are here too.
    But it was not that time because it was not war.
    No, but that was still in me from Berlin,
    from that time when I saw the yellow bench where--
    for the Jews.
    But I mean there, I did not realize it,
    because I figured we had left it all behind, you see.
    So I mean, there I just wanted to get out as fast as possible.
    From the danger.
    From the danger zone, right.
    When you were transported through this cattle car
    through Russia, what were your feelings during this trip?
    I don't know.
    I don't remember anymore.
    I mean, as I say, it was a terrible thing when
    the Germans came, and when they then bombard us.
    But this I don't have to go into because you
    will read about this up here.
    And this is really a child's view,
    what you will find in this paper, not anymore.
    What I remember after so many years.
    So this I don't have to go into.
    So I don't know.
    I was always a sickly child, and wherever
    I could catch something, I was catching it.
    And my mother always went through with me a lot
    just to keep me alive.
    Let's put it this way.
    Do you remember the beds on the train?
    Yes, of course.
    Or the non-beds?
    Yeah, well, I mean we were laying there like cattle
    or how would you say it.
    I mean--
    Were there other-- did you have other children?
    Did you have a company?
    Yes, yes, yes.
    There were other children.
    Sure.
    There were plenty of children.
    Did the children--
    Smaller ones, the older ones.
    I mean, I'm still in touch with some of them.
    Did the children play games, or do--
    Yes, children always do.
    Children always will.
    I mean, out of a bad situation, a child always
    will try to see the better point of it,
    and always will try to play a game.
    And so I mean it's no different how bad it is,
    you always will try to do it.
    You can go very hungry and everything
    and still you will try to be a child.
    Do you remember any of the mothers