Advanced Search

Learn About The Holocaust

Special Collections

My Saved Research

Login

Register

Help

Skip to main content

Print

Oral history interview with Sjouke Bouwme de Vries

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1984.1.1.4 | RG Number: RG-50.157.0004

Search this record's additional resources, such as finding aids, documents, or transcripts.

No results match this search term.
Check spelling and try again.

results are loading

0 results found for “keyward”

    Oral history interview with Sjouke Bouwme de Vries
    Transcript
    Now we would like to ask you some specific questions
    about your rescue activities during the Second World War.
    How many people did you rescue during the war?
    Three.
    Were there any young children among those you rescued?
    Oh, the youngest one was 19 years old.
    OK.
    So I'll put a no and make a note.
    Did you do your rescue activity alone
    or with the help of others?
    With the help of my dad and my mom.
    They were responsible for [INAUDIBLE]..
    So these were members of your family?
    Yeah, and my sister.
    OK.
    What about friends or neighbors or any underground resistance?
    Did the underground or the resistance help you?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Any other?
    Well, they first went to Reverend Kolenbrander,
    a reverend in my own village.
    OK.
    So a reverend also helped.
    Yeah.
    I was a helper there.
    So if the reverend was out during the day,
    I was the only one who was with those three people in the house
    there.
    OK.
    I was responsible for them.
    OK.
    Did you rescue any people who were not Jewish?
    No.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    She misunderstands that.
    They had people from south, the teenagers.
    They were there too, were non-Jewish people.
    In your house?
    Yeah, that was late.
    Yeah.
    Before and later.
    OK.
    So I can add that.
    Well, yeah, I could add them to--
    what, these were the young Dutch boys?
    Yeah,
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And four adults.
    OK.
    OK.
    So that was later.
    OK.
    Thank you.
    How did you know the people that you rescued before the war?
    Did you know them before the war, or were they strangers?
    Strangers.
    OK.
    What made you decide to help the people?
    Because out of our belief.
    Can you say more about that belief?
    To help them, to save them.
    Were there other reasons?
    No.
    When you decided to rescue the people,
    was this a quick decision, or did you
    think about it for a long time, or did it
    change with each person that you rescued?
    This was a quick decision, actually.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    When you made the decision to rescue,
    how much risk did you feel that you were taking,
    a great deal of risk, some risk, not very much risk,
    or no risk at all?
    A lot.
    A great deal?
    Yeah.
    A great deal.
    When you made the decision to rescue,
    how concerned were you about the risk you were taking?
    Were you very concerned, somewhat concerned,
    not very concerned, or not at all concerned?
    Very concerned.
    How did your rescue activity begin?
    Were you asked to help by the person you rescued,
    or did you offer help, or were you
    approached by a third person?
    No.
    I cannot give an answer on that because they just came in.
    The underground brought them.
    The underground?
    Yeah.
    Oh, OK.
    That might be a third person, an outside person.
    Yeah.
    It was an underground.
    Yeah.
    Do you remember if the person from the underground
    was a male or female?
    Do you remember that?
    OK.
    In what month and year did your rescue activity first begin?
    '43.
    Do you remember the month?
    No.
    Do you remember the season?
    In the beginning of the winter.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    How long did it continue?
    About a year.
    OK.
    Not until-- the war went on afterwards?
    Yes.
    So about the winter of '44.
    Yeah, '43, '44.
    That's correct.
    OK.
    At any time, did anyone put pressure on you
    to stop your rescue activities?
    How to answer that?
    The first thing is the regulations by the underground.
    They run the show.
    They brought them.
    They [INAUDIBLE].
    They took them away.
    You have them twice, twice [INAUDIBLE]
    and twice at the underground.
    So we trusted that was OK.
    You know what I mean?
    We didn't ask questions.
    Yeah.
    That was the way we work in Friesland.
    Friesland is kind of a quiet. [? Stubborn ?] people,
    but they smell what is going on.
    I was all involved in there, too.
    So they trusted the underground.
    They brought them.
    If it was too hot, they took them away.
    Yeah.
    But that family, they never say pressure on them.
    Well, the pressure is when you took them away
    and they didn't want that they left.
    How are you going to explain that?
    Pressure on the--
    I mean, we were all under pressure.
    Right.
    Under tremendous pressure.
    Right.
    That is so hard to put it in good English gramatica.
    Because you lived in an underworld.
    Yes, it was an underworld.
    How could you trust your closest people around you?
    They were all pretty working for 99%, only one could spoil it.
    So that's the way you looked at everything.
    That's the way we all worked it out.
    So the pressure was there for everything, you know.
    [CROSS TALK] if I may say something now, their house,
    they had pictures.
    It was the first house from the town Northwest,
    the very first house, and a very small house.
    They had no protection, no basement,
    only three little rooms upstairs, no backyard,
    a piece of ground like that on the side.
    So you are talking about pressure?
    If the razzia came, what happened from the south was OK.
    But if it came from the north, their house was the first one.
    Well, I think the question is asking a specific person,
    or was there certain people in your house,
    or a specific neighbor, or a specific person
    that pressured you to stop doing this?
    No.
    Yeah.
    No.
    But I understand the pressure of every day.
    OK.
    Did anyone praise you for your rescue activities
    during the war?
    No.
    OK.
    Did you receive any compensation for your rescue activities?
    No.
    Were you or any of the persons that you rescued ever arrested?
    No.
    No.
    No.
    OK.
    Did you have any contact with the persons
    that you rescued after the war?
    No.
    Do you remember any of their names?
    Yes.
    Of all of them or some of them?
    The girl's name is Sylvia.
    I don't know the mother and the father's name.
    They go under the name of Hoffman.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Hoffman and Sylvia.
    OK.
    Was there ever a time when you gave aid to someone
    and later regretted it?
    Sorry, I didn't get it.
    Was there ever a time you gave aid to someone
    and later regretted it?
    Did you ever feel bad that you did it?
    No.
    Was there ever a time when you wanted to help a Jew,
    but felt that you could not?
    No.
    Did you discuss your rescue activities
    with any members of your family?
    Yes.
    What were their feelings?
    My dad and mom, they were the first persons.
    But they're not alive anymore.
    Can you say more about their feelings about helping,
    about you helping, or their feelings about helping?
    Well, there wasn't time we could not
    get a girl anymore in our house because our house was too small.
    So there's not a question at all.
    You answer the question wrong.
    Yeah, if I can get a question.
    OK.
    The first question was did you discuss your rescue activity
    with members of your family.
    That was yes.
    Yeah.
    What were their feelings?
    For my family, you mean?
    The same.
    The same as yours?
    Yeah.
    Did you discuss your rescue activity with your friends?
    No.
    During the war, how many of your nearby neighbors
    knew about your rescue activities?
    Would you say that almost all of them knew, only some of them
    knew, or that none of your neighbors knew?
    No one.
    No one.
    After the war, did your neighbors find out
    about your rescue activities?
    No.
    That's no.
    OK.
    OK.
    So now I'm going to take down what
    you say as you tell me the story of your rescue activities.
    OK.
    Can I go.
    Yes.
    Well, first we were at the Reverend Kolenbrander's place.
    I was the helper there.
    During the day, if he was gone, I was the only person with them.
    So then my dad and mom took them in.
    I looked a great deal after them, too, in the meantime.
    Then all three was over at our place, the father
    and the mother and the girl.
    But our house was too small for three persons.
    So then she went away with me on the bike,
    on the back of my bike.
    I brought her to the bus station, or to bushalte.
    Let me say it like that, about three kilometers.
    How you say kilometer in English?
    Do you know what I mean?
    Hmm.
    We waited for the bus over there.
    I did it several times.
    She went to one place called--
    Willem, Mr. Willem's place.
    She stayed there over there.
    Then later on, I was in our own village to pick up something
    for dad and mom and for them.
    We went to the store.
    There was-- how you call it, razzia?
    Yeah.
    So I fled home.
    I went in the back of the Jewish people,
    in the back of the [INAUDIBLE] all the time.
    We shoved them underneath of the bed.
    My mother put a bandage around my head,
    put some red stuff on it and water, so it looks like blood.
    They put pots, let me say it like that, in front of the bed,
    with water and that stuff, and it looks like blood.
    So I had an accident.
    But the way I see it and my family, my dad and my mother
    see it, or saw it, with the help of the Lord,
    it was around noon hour.
    Just three houses before our house, the razzia people,
    whatever you call them, they suddenly stop there.
    They were hungry, I guess.
    They did not come to our house.
    OK.
    So they stayed 1 and 1/2 week later after that, 1 and 1/2,
    2 weeks later from that.
    With the help in the meantime of my fiancé at that time,
    he brought all this food for them, for us.
    Because he was involved with the underground,
    and so forth, you know?
    But his underground was in another area--
    --than the underground who went over those people who
    were at our place.
    So on an evening, there was a knock on the door.
    The man came in, a gentleman, and the second one came in.
    He waited in the hall, in our front hall.
    The other one went in our back room, in our dining room.
    Let me say it like that.
    The Jewish people were downstairs,
    sitting at our table.
    The Jewish people were--
    Downstairs, sitting at our table.
    So we heard a knock on the door, they fled upstairs.
    They were allowed downstairs, anyway, with us.
    But they fled upstairs, so I said.
    And then the gentleman told us or my dad, then,
    they had to leave.
    Because the ground got too hot over there.
    So my dad asked them where they had to go.
    They said they could not tell that.
    My dad said I want to know where they go.
    My dad said I want to know where they go.
    Otherwise, they're not leaving my house here.
    But the gentleman said they have to go.
    There's not other way around, not another way.
    They have to leave.
    My dad was in tears.
    He said, I cannot let them go.
    It was a rainy, cold day of an evening,
    on the evening around 7 o'clock.
    They left our house, the two people [? then. ?]
    I still see the picture.
    We were standing in the front door, my dad, my mom, my sister,
    and myself.
    I still see them going in the car.
    I never can forget that picture anymore.
    And they [INAUDIBLE] him.
    [CRYING]
    Do you want me to tell them the next?
    Yes, please.
    OK.
    They left in that evening.
    The next morning, early in the morning--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Oh.
    I'm-- Just keep--
    Yeah.
    My fault.
    No.
    I'm sorry.
    OK.
    They left that evening.
    Yeah.
    The next morning, they got word to [INAUDIBLE],,
    that he went to the chairman of the factory that he worked.
    Mother went to [PLACE NAME]?
    No, my mother went to--
    Sit down.
    Take it easy.
    Otherwise, you don't make it.
    No.
    Sit.
    Sit and--
    Yeah, I'm OK now.
    OK.
    You tell.
    Go ahead.
    The next morning, we got--
    came some people at my farm.
    I don't know anymore because how that went.
    But we had to leave our house.
    My mother and I went on foot, if that is how
    you say that, to a town nearby.
    I brought my mother there, over there at a friend's house.
    Then I went walking down to my fiance's house, five kilometers
    farther, or something like that.
    Yeah, five kilometers.
    My dad was-- and he was working in a mill factory,
    and he was hiding there.
    My older sister, she was hiding at her friend's house in our own
    [INAUDIBLE].
    Now I'm blank.
    I tell them that.
    How far you [INAUDIBLE]?
    The next thing-- is the recorder running?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    OK.
    The next thing happens--
    the next day, there was a picture
    in the paper of the Jewish lady and a little piece of it
    that they want to have the people who know more
    about these people because they were found dead
    in South Friesland.
    The girl was not mentioned because she
    was-- we knew where she was.
    So we waited a little while, for a week or so.
    And then everything-- just a minute.
    In the meantime, there was hope in the thing--
    in her village because--
    There was what, pardon me?
    The Russia people were in her village,
    from house to house because they found
    on the body of the Jewish lady a picture of her--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Yeah.
    No, no, no, I tell--
    I will tell her that, actually.
    They found a picture on the body of the Jewish lady of herself.
    And they found names of--
    one of the names was the Fries, where they were.
    Now, the part-- that name that came partly in good hands
    and in wrong hands.
    Because there was a--
    they went to the village of Tzum.
    And in that village, accidentally, there
    were eight people by the name of the priest.
    They went to all eight for so far we know.
    So the last-- the last was--
    as we told you, the last house-- they started from the south--
    that was the place where the Jewish people there.
    And that door was locked.
    I think that was the end of her.
    With that piece on the paper, we saw the picture,
    we know that because it was in the daily.
    And when the next day already end--
    and I remember, we-- you were at our place,
    which they took it there.
    And my mother, she came around and she saw it.
    And she picked the paper and put it in the stove.
    Now, you think maybe strange-- no, that's the way we lived.
    If you didn't know anything, you could-- if they got you,
    you couldn't tell it.
    Right.
    But they found him close to a place called Sneek.
    Sneek and Sloten.
    Yeah, Sneek-- it is S-N-E-E-K. They brought them close
    to the water, the father and the mother, and they are buried in--
    on the Jewish cemetery in Sneek.
    The Jewish cemetery?
    Yeah, the Jewish cemetery.
    And that's why I was hoping to meet Sylvia over here
    to hand her over this [INAUDIBLE]..
    It says her mother [INAUDIBLE],, who she had left at our place.
    I see.
    But I like to add one thing more, if I may.
    My fiancé that time, he was a great help for me
    too because we worked together in [INAUDIBLE]..
    You understand what I mean by that?
    Sure.
    But do you know their last name?
    Would you be able to find them, the Sylvia?
    Well, they went under the name of Hoffman.
    If that was their real name or not--
    we had another name.
    But-- however, that lady has found it out,
    probably, through the mail.
    So that's why-- see, she knows our name.
    She didn't know our name at that time.
    I see.
    So she knows your name, but you're not
    sure of her last name?
    No.
    No.
    And I look around to lots of faces here.
    And I even-- I start talking.
    I look at the cards.
    And I don't have luck right now.
    I would pray for it if I could find that lady.
    She is really my age.
    I'm 61.
    And she was 19 years old that time.
    And so was I.
    I wonder.
    I wonder, in Amsterdam, they have that--
    I've heard about it, that big Jewish--
    They were German Jewish.
    And they lived in Amsterdam and then [PLACE NAME],,
    from what they had there.
    And then they came in Friesland for--
    because it was too hard in Germany.
    And then they went to Holland.
    And then they came in Friesland at that time in the war.
    That's the way they caught them.
    They were first from Amsterdam, then the underground
    brought them to you?
    Yeah.
    And-- but they were first in other places too.
    They were German.
    And we were the last ones what they got.
    The story is kind of sad in the end.
    We know that.
    But we brought them so far till our front door.
    Sure.
    And if my dad had known it that if they would
    have stayed at our place--
    I mean, when and how they go, they had another razzia.
    And then they came in our house.
    And they had two other boys again-- not Jewish,
    but two other from Rotterdam were sleeping.
    And so if they would still-- if--
    before-- then my dad would say, yeah, they have to stay.
    I don't let them go because she was really in tears.
    Says, I don't let them go.
    Then my father would not have left that time anymore.
    I know that.
    I know that.
    So they had to go because we had to obey the rules of that--
    people who pick them up.
    So you left your house for a little bit of time?
    Hiding, yeah.
    Hiding?
    It was in a week, week and a half we were hiding,
    were hiding at this place.
    And then you moved back?
    Yeah.
    And I went from one place to one place.
    It was really hard on the [INAUDIBLE]..
    It was hard over there.
    Just was hard-- no Jewish people from the underground.
    And you know what that means too.
    No Jewish people?
    Well, no Jewish people at our place.
    Yeah.
    But I mean, if they caught hers-- my record was so black--
    Yeah, yeah.
    --because we had more to take care of the Jews,
    the flyers who came down in Friesland.
    There were 300 graves of Friesland
    only from-- flyers who came down.
    Then the people of our only lost--
    we lost our best friend too.
    Oh, I'll be able to-- that will fit in.
    Yeah.
    Yeah, see.
    But the thing is after everything happens,
    they had home visiting--
    they called it home visiting.
    That is not really the-- but that is the way we--
    in our language, we say a home visiting, the bad one.
    And they even went in their sleeping rooms, lifted up
    the blanket to see the age of the boys.
    They had the [INAUDIBLE] in their room
    while they were in bed.
    Yeah.
    But my dad-- we had a little cellar with a gun.
    But he was my dad.
    And that was after the Jewish was-- they're gone.
    Yeah, they just gone.
    Yeah.
    And then they had other people.
    They had all the time people in the house to help.
    So after the Jewish people were gone--
    Before the Jewish, they had people.
    And then the Jewish people, we had for quite a while.
    And before-- yeah, really long before the Jewish came,
    we had the people.
    And see, that was in '43.
    We had the Jewish people '44.
    And '45, the war was over.
    So they nearly made it to the end.
    Yeah, that was close.
    It was really close.
    But we can always tell you whether-- if I had known it--
    I was in the underground, but I was in the north, see--
    he would have possible found a way out.
    Because we had a real threshold population where we lived.
    We had only one was so-so.
    And we kept them under control.
    There was another one in Arnhem that he was shot by the Frisian
    underground--
    They killed him
    --because he was too dangerous.
    But my girls--
    But that would have been a good chance because we
    could see the end of the war.
    But my girlfriends, they asked often,
    why your mom got out of the drapes so closed?
    Not the drapes, but those--
    Curtains.
    --thin ones, whatever you call them.
    Those kind of blackout.
    Yeah.
    And I says, well, my mother wants to change--
    have a change for the windows.
    That's all.
    I always was lying in my head.
    Oh, well, you had to do it like that.
    But they never found us out.
    No.
    No, never.
    And so far as we know, on the first house--
    I mean, the first few days, they couldn't stay any longer.
    But yeah, if my dad had-- would have kept them, and--
    but my dad was really a sensitive man.
    And so was my mother.
    So I mean-- well--
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    By the way--
    You know enough about that, that the people who had the Jews,
    they were brought there, anyway, in Friesland.
    And then they were taken away And sometimes after a week, were
    brought back--
    sometimes after three weeks.
    Because the Frisian underground had
    its connection with the German.
    Because the German were a few--
    they were on our side too-- not many, but a few.
    But those few were gold brought for us.
    Sure.
    And then we had-- and oh, yeah.
    And we had an--
    here is the-- yeah.
    Oops.
    You have to take a pen to point it out.
    That's our house there.
    That is the little house there.
    And the first house on the street--
    from the town.
    And the state is running here by the Germans, let me say,
    about there.
    And the street was running like that
    and passed just in between this house and that house.
    And the first razzia was up till here.
    That is the little village.
    And I had them if I was--
    well, I'm really young here.
    But that is the house.
    And that is the--
    Their street.
    --that is the church.
    And there, I had them in there.
    At the beginning?
    Yeah, that was the first beginning.
    And then it got too hot there right because the reverend
    was known for always--
    during the day always.
    And so I had them all day there all by myself.
    And the reverend was not married.
    So I was always alone with him.
    That's my dad, and my mom, and my sister, and myself.
    And that was outhouse that time--
    not now, anymore, but that time.
    My dad and mom passed away.
    And that is the--
    a boy from Wien then.
    Austria.
    Austria, who was 10 years old.
    And we were a couple of months married.
    We had them-- him in the house.
    But we were just married.
    And then two weeks later, we went to Canada.
    And that's the end, I think, from the story.
    Yeah.
    And what's this one?
    Oh, sorry.
    That is our engagement picture.
    That's not the end of the story.
    Actually, my husband or my-- we were not married then.
    He went to Indonesia after the war.
    And then he was fighting over in there.
    We was doing good job.
    I tell you what happened.
    See, there was Hitler, and Mussolini, and the Japanese.
    You know that too.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
    OK.
    So what got to does in Holland-- now,
    Indonesia was part of the Netherlands.
    And they asked the full group of-- gave me the picture
    of the underground church.
    You've got it too there, isn't it?
    No.
    You have it at your hotel.
    Oh, well, OK.
    They asked us as a group to go.
    Now, half of the group--
    six men-- went in a Frisian battalion.
    So after all this happening, we went nonstop.
    She let me go after '45.
    After that, we were freed by the Canadian Army.
    We started right away in training for Indonesia.
    We still had that we-- she let me sign for all over the world,
    no time limit.
    We never know how long it would take with the Japanese.
    OK, we signed.
    And then in August, I think, they dropped the atomic bomb
    on Japan.
    But we had signed.
    And they said, we want still you to go to Indonesia because
    of the Dutch people and also a few Jewish people we found out
    were in the camp of men in Indonesia.
    So we went there.
    And in '48, we came back.
    And then you were married.
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    And then we say, no, we married.
    Then we married.
    And we didn't have children.
    So we-- our first child, that boy that calls us [INAUDIBLE],,
    that is his writing.
    And what is--
    That's German.
    [GERMAN]
    [GERMAN]---- he still calls us that after 40 years.
    We still got him around the house.
    But we still in contact with him.
    Yeah, that's nice.
    That's nice.
    Now, tell me--
    But that lady, that Jewish lady had other--
    there was a black band on her that got really--
    I don't know.
    Messy.
    Yeah.
    So I took it off.
    And I still see her sitting--
    I always dropped them down like.
    And I still see her doing it.
    And if she would rent-- would come to this door
    here with her husband in the same age,
    somebody were at that time, of course,
    I would recognize her right away.
    Because we don't have pictures of her.
    Because a picture in the papers, we throw it out.
    We would not keep it for the safety's sake, of course.
    But if she would walk in through the door,
    I would right away recognize her--
    and him too, after 40 years.
    Sure.
    And that's why I'm looking around here so many times here,
    if I see a Jewish girl, with the-- and I'm--
    I think that looks like her mother.
    And I talked to her.
    And then I found out, no, she's Polish--
    Jewish Polish or something else.
    So no luck yet.
    Yeah.
    Oh.
    Now, could we borrow some of these?
    Oh, yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    And the person that will take a picture of you will copy these.
    And then we'll mail them back to you.
    That's--
    Oh, yeah.
    It's fine for me.
    I don't know-- do you have interest in a picture of me
    in Dutch underground with 10 men?
    Sure, we would like it.
    I forgot completely about it.
    Yeah, we definitely should have an interview today, right?
    Yeah, well--
    You know that.
    That's right too.
    But I mean, if you-- but I like to have it
    back because I only got one.
    No, yeah-- well, sure.
    Well, she wants to-- she'll take a picture of the picture--
    Oh, yeah.
    --and then mail you your regular picture back.
    And then she'll also mail you a picture
    of the picture that she takes of you
    and so that you'll have a copy of that.
    See, during the underground, even my picture in--
    I kept my picture out of the family pictures
    and put it away--
    not that the-- if they have home visit,
    then they didn't find anything.
    Sure.
    We were so-- because we were nice successful,
    but we did a lot of careful work not to run in their track.
    And we were successful.
    But sorry if I am a little bit out of--
    you know?
    It's-- yeah.
    You know what I mean.
    I couldn't hold myself.
    Sure, don't be.
    How were we there?
    OK.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    That's that.
    Like with this, though, you should take this back.
    Because you need this.
    You don't--
    Yeah, you may have it too.
    No, no.
    You should keep this.
    Yeah?
    OK.
    And it-- yeah.
    Yeah, then I also keep it.
    Yeah.
    You keep that.
    In case you never know what'll happen.
    That's right.
    I don't know if she's still alive or--
    but OK.
    And we'll--
    Well, she has been kept in case.
    Yeah.
    And we'll copy these and give them back to you.
    OK.
    You want this folder with it?
    And I didn't-- you'll give it to me.
    Can I have it?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    So this will be safe this way.
    OK.
    Now, we'll go on with the questionnaire.
    OK?
    Because we have more questions to ask.
    [INAUDIBLE] so satisfying.
    No, no.
    We're not far from the beginning here.
    Although that was the long--
    getting the whole story was the longest part.
    So now, could you summarize for me
    the main reasons why you rescued these people?
    Belief.
    She marked that down in the building on a big--
    be together this morning, what the reason
    was, which would lead to--
    with chalk, we marked it down.
    We let it read [INAUDIBLE].
    OK?
    The reason why.
    Well, the chart?
    Yeah, we wrote it down together.
    We put our names on there this morning.
    Where?
    In a hall there.
    Was a big blackboard.
    We cleaned it all off of the chalk.
    We wrote down.
    Where we met each other.
    Close by.
    I let it see to Mr. [PERSONAL NAME]..
    You see, he said, you want me to rub it out?
    No, no, he said, leave it there.
    But tell me what it says in case--
    No, but--
    --it may get erased.
    OK.
    We-- you want to repeat it and write what we say?
    You repeat it-- that for me.
    OK.
    Oh, yeah.
    The reason why they did it--
    the-- don't we know the--
    we don't know the reason why.
    Is it not a shame?
    Little bit different, but that is probably what it is.
    Not a--
    That we don't know the reason why, we couldn't say.
    Yeah, oh.
    And did we forget the person who was a Jew, who
    give his life for our sense.
    That is why we couldn't find any reason for not
    helping the Jewish people.
    We signed it with Sjouke and Rinze.
    Good.
    And that is simply what it is, see?
    We could not find a reason not to help.
    We turned that around.
    And their family and our family--
    so it was very simple.
    So then the second thing simple is
    if you look all the crosses over the world,
    the people should know the meaning of that.
    They make a lots of difficult questions about the whole thing.
    That is very simple.
    If that has been for done--
    done for us, and we believe in that, so then in other words,
    when we got $100, should we give two pennies?
    Simple.
    Never been a problem for us.
    We will do it again.
    I will tell them too.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Have you had other opportunities to help people since the war?
    Yeah.
    And in what ways have you helped people?
    Feed them and dress them.
    Who were these people?
    From Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Arnhem, and Limburg--
    Limburg.
    Were you involved in bringing Nazis to justice after the war?
    No.
    How important is religion to you at the present time?
    Is it very important, somewhat important,
    or not at all important?
    Very important.
    Are you involved in community activities
    such as a volunteer work for charities, or schools,
    or churches?
    Sometimes, yeah.
    And what kinds of things?
    Making soup for sick people and go to the old folks home,
    visit them.
    And an elderly neighbor lady who lives in an old folks home,
    we taking the care for her.
    That really was--
    I even call her Mom.
    And if we came here in Canada, we
    lived in an apartment of a farm apartment.
    And the farm lady sometimes was quite sick.
    And I helped her out all the time--
    yeah, how you-- nurse--
    nursed.
    OK.
    OK, yeah, that's right.
    Have you spoken about your war experiences in any public place?
    Not that much.
    Sometimes, a little bit, but not-- no, not exactly.
    But was it in front of a group?
    Have you ever?
    No, no.
    With friends first?
    No, no.
    Do you think your attitudes towards other people
    have changed in any way since the war?
    Yes and no.
    Well, in what ways?
    I should not be better because my faith keeps me going.
    But if it is something happens again,
    I still go the same way again.
    I still do the same thing all over again.
    OK.
    Do you have any children?
    Yeah.
    And how much do your children know
    about your rescue activities?
    Do they know quite a bit or some?
    No, because they born and raised here in Canada.
    Do they-- have you told them?
    Yeah, we told our stories.
    So you think they know some?
    Yeah.
    Yeah?
    Yeah, they-- yeah.
    OK.
    Do you believe that your children
    have been influenced in any way by what they know
    about your rescue activities?
    Yeah.
    And in what ways?
    In the same way, we think.
    And that is fate.
    OK.
    Overall, do you think your children strongly approve,
    or somewhat approve, or somewhat disapprove, or strongly
    disapprove of your rescue activities?
    Just in between, let me say.
    Oh, well, not as strong as we would.
    Think that it'd be somewhat approve or somewhat disapprove?
    Oh, they approve it, but they are not
    aware of all those serious things the way we are.
    Do you have any grandchildren?
    Yes.
    And how much do you think your grandchildren know
    about your rescue activities?
    Nothing yet.
    They too small.
    Do you-- do your neighbors, your present neighbors,
    do they know about your rescue activities?
    No.
    What would you tell your children and grandchildren
    if a party with goals similar to those of the Nazis
    came to power today?
    Same thing.
    Can you say more of what that would be?
    What would be, what would have done.
    My dad, my mother, my fiancé that time--
    we will go out and be on the ground
    again, would do it all over again to help.
    And still, it can help something with this project, whatever
    it will be, we will involve to help.
    May I say something?
    Sure.
    In connection with this, we got a piece
    of this Mr. [PERSONAL NAME],, his experience in Poland.
    And I should have asked him this morning.
    And I forgot.
    Can we use that to put it in our daily paper in Sarnia?
    Sure.
    Oh, can you--
    I'm sure he would be happy.
    I'm not sure if it's--
    I'm not sure if-- it was an article?
    Yeah, it was an article out of a paper in the Los--
    In Los Angeles?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I'm sure that you could take it to the newspaper.
    I'm not positive if it's legal to take an article out
    of one paper and put it--
    So put it out in the paper where his nose is.
    I mean, we can say--
    to give them an introduction--
    Sure.
    --that we are going to do already something about this.
    Because I think we are the only ones in Sarnia.
    And we go to the newspaper because we
    see exactly the same, the world today, as you people do.
    Don't misunderstand this.
    The danger-- this is still dangerous.
    So we haven't talked with newspapers.
    We tell them exactly, honestly, what happens.
    We are invited here.
    Sure, that would be wonderful.
    And what we heard here, I make all notes.
    And then we let them read that piece.
    They don't have to take it otherworldly, the way it is,
    but that they know what is going on.
    That would be wonderful.
    Yeah, that's what I feel, you see.
    They don't have to report that he took it over
    to the Los Angeles paper.
    Yeah, that would be fine.
    Yeah, that's what I figure.
    But to be careful, we don't want to do
    anything what would hurt him in one way or another,
    the undertaking what you saying,
    Oh, that would help.
    I was just concerned about if it was legal to do that.
    Yeah.
    But that would help us
    Yeah.
    See, then I know that will really hit him in his heart
    because there are a lot of Catholic people,
    but a lot of Protestants.
    We have that, at least 2,000 Dutch people
    in our Dutch Reformed church.
    Well, there might be more people who
    want to be interviewed maybe.
    Yeah, yeah.
    More aware, and that they make the people more aware of what
    really happened as a lesson for the future and wake up.
    That's kind of the message of the conference, I guess.
    Yeah, wake up.
    Some people sleep, not aware of that the powers of this world,
    how they do their best.
    I just read that book of the rise
    and the fall of the Third Reich.
    I don't know if you have.
    I haven't read it, no.
    And you see how they work.
    Yeah.
    Well.
    OK.
    This-- going to the other part, do you want to take a rest?
    Do you want-- would you like me to go get some coffee
    or tea from downstairs?
    No.
    No.
    No, no, no, it's OK.
    It's OK?
    Yeah, I'm still OK.
    Yeah.
    But you're OK.
    I'm fine.
    OK.
    So this part is about you when you were little,
    and you during the war, and when--
    and about your parents.
    Yeah?
    So we find out this information about you
    and compare it with other people.
    OK.
    It will be--
    Well, if I don't-- can't really answer the question,
    then I'll just ask my husband anyway.
    Sure.
    Sure.
    Well, I don't know if I can answer
    the question because sometimes, my wife is a little tired--
    if that is according to your schedule.
    If you're tired?
    Oh, not me.
    I'm not tired.
    I'm not.
    No, no, I'm--
    OK, we're all OK?
    Yeah.
    I just want to make sure that I have the right booklet here.
    OK OK.
    Check this.
    We'd like to begin by asking some questions about you
    and your family during the time you were growing up.
    First of all, in which country were you born?
    Friesland.
    In which city or town were you born?
    Tzum.
    Well, T-Z-U-M. Yeah.
    And where did you live for the longest time
    when you were growing up?
    Tzum.
    Oops, wait.
    OK.
    When you look at this page, did you
    live in a large city, a small city, a village, or a farm?
    In a village.
    In a village.
    And then we go to this page.
    How would you describe the neighbors
    when you were growing up?
    Were they friendly and helpful, somewhat friendly
    and helpful, not very friendly and helpful, or not
    at all friendly and helpful?
    Very friendly.
    Very friendly and helpful.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    What was the month and year of your birth?
    August 31, '23.
    Now, I'd like to make a list of the people who
    lived in your household during the time--
    this wasn't on here-- during the time when you were growing up.
    My dad, and mom, and my sister.
    My sister is older than I am.
    OK.
    Now, when you were 20--
    let's see, when you were 10, that would be 1933?
    That's right.
    And so when you were 10, do you know how old
    your dad was when you were 10?
    Oh, dear.
    What-- do you know what year he was born?
    I had a book at home with it all.
    Yeah, I cannot even say that.
    I was home with the two kids in 1955.
    And my mother was 61 that time.
    And my mother-- and my dad was 60.
    OK.
    That was in '55.
    OK.
    So in 19--
    '55, '56, I was home with my two kids.
    Your dad was 60?
    And my dad was 60.
    That's-- and my mother was 61.
    So your dad was born in 1895.
    Not-- yeah, '94 and '95, that--
    in that area.
    OK.
    So-- I know.
    OK.
    So your dad was 38 and your mom was--
    39.
    --39?
    Yeah.
    And when you were 10, how old was your sister?
    11.
    No, 11 and a half.
    OK.
    And everyone from Friesland?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    And who was the head of the household?
    My dad.
    When you were 10.
    And what kind of work did he do?
    My dad was working on a milk factory.
    [NON-ENGLISH],, they you call it, [NON-ENGLISH],, yeah.
    And your mom?
    Housewife.
    OK.
    So does that include everyone living in your house
    at that time?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now, if we look at page three, how would you
    describe the relationship between the members
    of your family when you were growing up?
    Close.
    Would you say that they were somewhat close or very close?
    Very close.
    Very close.
    And on page four, before the war,
    was your family very well-off financially,
    quite well-off, neither rich nor poor, quite poor, very poor?
    Oh, we were not rich.
    We were not.
    We were just-- well, we were fairly well-off--
    oh, no, that's not quite-- no.
    No, not according to the standards of the land though.
    When you-- in your--
    Both wage earners, but what they earned,
    they needed for living, both families.
    Do you think neither rich nor poor, is that about it?
    No, we were not poor.
    Were not poor, were not rich.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    And then for this page, would you say, before the war,
    was your family thought of as being upper class,
    or middle class, or working class?
    Working class.
    OK.
    Who is the person in your household
    who had the most influence on you when you were growing up?
    My pops, my dad.
    OK.
    These next questions refer to the person
    in your household, your dad, who had the most influence on you
    when you were being brought up.
    What kind of work did your dad do when you were growing up?
    At the factory.
    And what was his title or position-- or what kind of--
    [FRISIAN]---- but all you have to say it in English.
    Well, we call it [NON-ENGLISH].
    You make the milk from milk to homo milk.
    You run it over the coolers.
    He was in that, doing that work, putting
    the milk in those machines and running it,
    doing the whole work.
    There is an English word for it too.
    Yeah, but they did do it.
    Like purifying?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, I forgot the name of it.
    Yeah, that's that.
    He was putting the milk to bottle.
    It has to move from milk to make whole milk--
    not really, but in that line.
    Because [INAUDIBLE] in the milk, see.
    Whoever can handle it open in the air-- it went open
    and it went down a very fine stream.
    I saw them doing that.
    And yeah, cooling, and even made homo milk, they call it.
    Yeah, something like that.
    Yeah, yeah.
    And then they take some of the fat out here too.
    And they also made cheese, I remember.
    Made what?
    Cheese.
    Oh, cheese, yeah.
    What-- did he work in the factory?
    He was a factory worker then?
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    That's what.
    OK.
    And it was in a milk factory.
    OK.
    Did he ever work as an apprentice in a Trade
    did he ever learn--
    did he ever study with someone else to do the kind of job
    that someone else does?
    That's what a apprentice is.
    No.
    Do you understand what--
    That is really-- there is a possibility
    that he learn from a couple years maybe, but not really.
    Well, he was interesting in lots of things.
    He was in music and that kind of stuff.
    No, that's not what he means.
    Apprentice here, that means when you learn a trade.
    And then you work for higher wages or no wages at all.
    You learn the trade.
    No.
    No.
    Apprentice-- [INAUDIBLE].
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Did your father attend elementary school?
    I guess so.
    I don't know.
    You think so?
    I think so, yeah.
    OK.
    Did he attend a gymnasium or a high school?
    No.
    OK.
    What was your father's religious affiliation?
    Was he a Protestant or a Catholic?
    Protestant.
    Was a Protestant.
    And what denomination?
    Dutch Reformed.
    Now, on page 6, we have another question here.
    How much influence do you feel that your father's religion
    had on the way that he lived his life?
    Do you feel it had a great deal of influence, some influence,
    not very much influence?
    A great deal.
    A great deal.
    And on page 7, did your father feel
    that people from other religions were different, very
    different from him, or somewhat different,
    or were they the same, or you don't know?
    Well, I don't know how to answer that because he
    was helping a lot of other people in that line.
    Yeah.
    But do you think that he felt that other--
    that people from other religions--
    did he distinguish?
    Did he--
    And he talked to them.
    Yeah.
    He was-- in general, he was the same--
    his thought about religion was in line with the Christian form
    of thinking in that country.
    And that is his take on Protestantism
    and that became part of the focus right now in Canada.
    We are friendly to that.
    We don't agree with them, but we don't make an issue out of it,
    like you say.
    It wouldn't help that.
    That was also his point of view.
    He wouldn't go along with it.
    But of course, he was heavily set against socialists-- well,
    let me say, National Socialists.
    Oh, yeah.
    Well, that was kind of a religion too,
    but not the way you mean.
    We only had Catholic--
    Protestant, and Catholic, and few of others, but not many--
    mostly were Protestants in the north.
    He taught along that line.
    I don't know what you really mean.
    Yeah.
    Let me just ask it again, and then see if it makes--
    Sense for me.
    --sense.
    OK.
    Did your father feel that people from other religions were very
    different from you-- from himself--
    did he feel that they were different?
    Yeah.
    Now, I get it.
    Yeah.
    He was-- that was-- yeah.
    And were they very different from him?
    Or did he feel that they were just
    somewhat different from him?
    Yeah different than-- of him.
    OK.
    Let me say somewhat different, yeah.
    Yeah?
    OK.
    Yeah.
    Did your father ever talk to you about Gypsies?
    Sorry, but what are Gypsies?
    A Gypsy?
    Zigeuners.
    Zigeuners?
    Yeah.
    He was pestering me with it all the time.
    Yeah?
    What did he say?
    He said, you're not my own one.
    He said, sometimes jokingly, you belong as a Gypsy--
    Family.
    --family.
    And then I would tell him--
    Just a joke.
    Just a joke.
    Yeah, yeah.
    And then he hurt me.
    OK.
    Did your father ever talk to you about Jews?
    Not before the war, no.
    What do you think were the most important things
    you learned from your father?
    Love and understanding.
    Can you say more about what that--
    The faith?
    Yeah.
    Also my mother, of course--
    not only my father, but my mother also.
    She teach me always in that line too.
    And we were here in Canada.
    And they wrote letter to each other.
    I always wrote in the letter-- of always--
    well, once in a while, I wrote in the letters
    to them, I always great--
    was so grateful to them that they teach me
    the way out of the Bible.
    I had great parents.
    Yeah.
    If we look at this list here, for each one,
    could you please tell me whether you feel that you learned
    this quality from your father?
    Do you think that you learned to be self-confident?
    Yes, but also from my mother.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Or to be independent?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    From both of them.
    OK.
    To take responsibility?
    Yeah.
    And to take chances?
    Yeah.
    To make your own decisions?
    You bet.
    To be adventurous?
    Oh, boy, yes.
    Yeah.
    To help others?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now, looking at this list, which is the same list, please,
    tell me whether you feel that when you grew up,
    that-- were you self-confident when you grew up?
    Not all the time, till I met him.
    A helper.
    He's a great help for me.
    Would you say in general it was more yes than no?
    You were more self--
    could you say that?
    Were you-- did you feel that you were in general self-confident
    even though it wasn't all the time?
    Not all of the time.
    Yeah.
    Not that I was real young.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    What about to be independent?
    Because then I-- no, I was not always self-confident
    because then I went from my dad and mom.
    Yeah, well, this is when you grew up.
    Yeah.
    Even then.
    Oh
    This is-- please, tell me whether you
    feel that when you grew up, you were self-confident.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Or when you grew up, were you independent?
    Yeah.
    And were you able to take responsibility?
    Yeah.
    And were you willing to take chances?
    Yeah.
    And were you able to make your own decisions?
    Yeah.
    And were you adventurous?
    Yeah.
    And were you helpful to others?
    Yeah.
    During the Second World War, did your father ever
    help Jews in any way?
    Yeah.
    The First World War, you mean?
    No, the second, the Second World War.
    Well, that's what we was just talking--
    Yeah, I know.
    But this is-- I know that the answer is yes.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And what kind of things did he do to help Jews?
    He hid them.
    That's what I'm thinking, that this was the whole thing here.
    Himself, yeah.
    Hide them.
    Yeah.
    This is because this is two separate questionnaires.
    Oh, yeah.
    That's the problem.
    Oh, that's the problem.
    Yeah.
    And before the Second World War, was your father
    a member of a political party?
    No.
    Well, yeah, I guess.
    He had.
    You-- both your father and [INAUDIBLE]..
    Oh, that's what this mean.
    Oh, that's not--
    He was a part of the Christian [INAUDIBLE] church.
    He was even a member of the--
    in the States here, we have the--
    [NON-ENGLISH] --no, no, the citizen of the United States,
    we had a thing-- in 1980, the socialists in the Netherlands,
    they tried to take over the government.
    And your dad, he was the friend of [PERSONAL NAME]----
    what is it here.
    What-- how do you call that outfit here in--
    and there's riots and they call of the cities?
    Oh, the National Guard?
    National Guard-- they had a National Guard
    in the Netherlands.
    He was the leader of that.
    I see.
    He was the leader of the National Guard.
    I think there's a very important thing that
    shouldn't be slept on.
    Well, I don't-- didn't understand.
    No, but then you call me in.
    That's the reason I'm here, to help out.
    Sure, that's good.
    OK.
    That's good.
    Now, after the war started, did your person belong--
    oh, did your person, I'm sorry.
    Did your father belong to a group that opposed the Nazis?
    Did he belong to any group?
    No.
    Well, see, that shouldn't be missed.
    The whole Frisian people, with the exception of one in 100,
    opposed [INAUDIBLE].
    I can rather say that.
    There was very strong.
    And it reflects even here in Washington right
    under the people.
    Was very strong underground.
    That's kind of an awkward question.
    Yeah.
    Confusing, really.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about the time when
    you were growing up, you.
    OK, did you attend elementary school?
    Yes.
    And what kind of elementary school did you attend?
    Was it a Protestant school, a Catholic school,
    a non-sectarian school?
    A Protestant school.
    Did any Jews attend your elementary school?
    No.
    Did you attend a gymnasium?
    No.
    Did you ever apprentice in any trade?
    No.
    That was-- OK.
    What was your religious affiliation
    during the time you were growing up?
    Were you a Protestant?
    Yeah.
    Now, on page 11, this one, during the time
    when you were growing up, how much influence did your religion
    have on the way you lived your life?
    Did it have a great deal?
    A great deal.
    OK.
    Now, on page 12, during the time you were growing up,
    did you have many close friends, some close friends, a few close
    friends, or no close friends?
    Yeah, many close friends.
    OK.
    When you were with your friends, were
    you usually a leader, or usually a follower, or what?
    Not a follower, not a real leader.
    I don't know what.
    Were any of your close friends very
    different from you in terms of religion or social class?
    No, same.
    The same.
    During the time that you were growing up,
    were any of your close friends Jewish?
    No.
    During the time when you were growing up,
    was there a particular person that you admired very much
    and wanted to be like when you grew up?
    No.
    I wanted to be myself.
    We're interested in your feelings
    about various groups of people.
    OK.
    Now, let's see.
    Before-- well, this is a scale here.
    OK, I'll show you this.
    Before the war, did you have feelings
    about people with different educational backgrounds
    than you?
    Did you feel-- did you have feelings about them
    as being different from you?
    Yes, sometimes.
    OK.
    And so now, we'll look at this chart here.
    And now, one means well thought of and seven
    means not well thought of.
    OK.
    So please, tell me the number on the scale that
    comes closest to the way you feel
    about people with educational backgrounds
    different from yours.
    Will you repeat it, please?
    OK.
    Now, this is well thought of.
    And that's did not think well of.
    So if someone had an education different than yours,
    did you think well of them or not well of them?
    Yeah I thought well of them.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Did you think, if this was as well of them as possible or--
    see, this is a scale.
    Where do you think your feelings about them fit in here?
    Yeah, I have to say that I have an idea in my head,
    but I don't know how to pronounce it, how to say it.
    Say it in your own language.
    I would say it in my own language.
    Yeah, say it in your own language.
    [SPEAKING FRISIAN]
    OK.
    That's a good thing.
    She had a girlfriend.
    And that girlfriend was on an office.
    And she really likes to be like her girlfriend.
    But she could not really reach that.
    She doesn't want to say she was jealous,
    but she appreciated that she was like that.
    But she says, no to me.
    Well, I know all about that too.
    But she could not reach Zeeland--
    well, she had a little bit better learning time
    from the family, they sent her to a school, and things
    like that.
    And may I add something?
    Sure.
    I want to go to one school.
    If I came from the elementary school,
    I wanted to go to a school where you learn sewing, and gardening,
    and everything.
    I don't know how you call that school here.
    But we have it in a different name over there.
    And I was all the time--
    I went all the time-- we would go down--
    to go down there.
    But my dad kept me from that because my mother
    was a good seamstress.
    He did not go out for-- to sew, he ordered at home.
    She made always my own clothes till I was 19 years old.
    He said-- my dad always said, you
    can learn it from your own mother.
    I can learn you gardening.
    So he did not let me go.
    And I was never--
    I did not get that another thought to what my dad-- never.
    But-- so that's why I helped a lot other people
    to help them out cleaning houses there were people sick.
    And then my sister was sick, I helped her husband out
    with the baby and all those things.
    You get me?
    You understand what it means?
    Yeah, I understand, sure.
    So you admired those people who had a higher education?
    Yeah.
    And this--
    Well, let me just put--
    I'm just simple.
    Yeah.
    That's the only word that I can think about.
    That's fine.
    That's the right answer.
    That answer is what I think.
    And so during the war, did your feelings
    about people from different education background did--
    change?
    Did you still admire them in the same way during the war?
    No.
    No.
    It-- just in my younger years.
    So they did change?
    Yeah, they did change later on, no.
    And then using the scale, can you
    tell me the number that comes closest to the way
    you felt during the war about people
    from different education backgrounds?
    It's less, I guess.
    Your attitude changed.
    Yeah.
    And you thought less of?
    Oh, yeah, I never even thought anymore.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Before the war, did you have feelings
    about people from different nationalities than you?
    Did you feel different about them?
    No.
    They were the same?
    Yeah, yeah.
    And then during the war, did your feelings change or did--
    Yeah.
    That changed?
    Yeah.
    And then looking at this again, can you
    tell us the closest way that you felt during the war about people
    from different nationalities?
    These are people from different countries.
    This is well thought of, and that's not well thought of.
    I cannot hear anything.
    I don't know.
    No, but may I say something?
    Mm-hmm.
    How do you think about the Germans after the war?
    This is during the war.
    Oh, during the war?
    Yeah.
    What did you think about that?
    Hate them.
    Not well.
    And how.
    Not well thought of.
    But that's a part of it.
    It's so simple.
    OK.
    So that would-- and the Germans.
    I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
    No, that's fine.
    Before the war, did you have feelings
    about people from different religions than you?
    Did you feel--
    No.
    OK.
    And during the war did you have feelings
    about different religions?
    OK.
    Before the war, did you have feelings about people
    from different social classes than you?
    Social class, that is the friends from you
    that even live in bigger farm, and you live in a little house
    there.
    And you told me a couple of times a story of how friends,
    they was talking about your house.
    OK.
    Now, you repeat that-- the same question again.
    Yeah, maybe if you repeat it, then she'll understand.
    Before the war, did you have feelings
    about people from different social classes from you?
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    OK.
    Now, looking at this again, which--
    Now, OK, this was-- the first part was, before the war,
    did you have feelings about people from social classes
    different from yours.
    And you said, yes.
    And then, on what number on the scale
    comes closest to the way you felt about people
    of different social classes?
    So if someone who you felt different--
    if you felt about someone from a social class
    different than yours.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    Did not think well.
    Did not think well.
    [INAUDIBLE] you have to be careful.
    [INAUDIBLE] was a girl who went to the--
    on the side of the German.
    And had two or three girls in--
    In our village.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    But that is more the social standing.
    The social standing was always [INAUDIBLE]
    between [INAUDIBLE] between the farmhand and the big farmers.
    Now you feel that you've got the social standing
    quite [INAUDIBLE] before the war,
    whether it was always that difference in social standing.
    Now during the war and after the war,
    that social standing did not go in the right direction.
    But we forgave them.
    We live in that point of love and forgiving.
    With the social standing we see the difference.
    But I say now in my own words, not in her words.
    She disagree.
    We very much disagree that that little house there
    on the outskirts of [NON-ENGLISH],,
    so wide open for attack, that all those [? red ?] farmers that
    aware of that more over there that they say,
    don't look at that.
    That is a shame.
    Not that they know about it, but they
    know that in general there were Jews
    hidden from [INAUDIBLE] very dangerous.
    So that-- if she agrees with that--
    And the big farmers--
    Yeah.
    --did not help.
    No, there were a lot of social high people, big people.
    Before the war, they had a leading.
    But when the fire was hot, they were not there.
    No.
    Quite a few.
    OK.
    And also, I say that with a lot of regret,
    but also the believers, the so-called believers
    we call them now, because if you believe,
    and you have not a little bit offering for the driven people
    and the persecuted people, that whole belief, the way we feel
    now, doesn't mean anything.
    Right.
    I understand.
    So I hope-- and I know she agrees with that,
    because in that line we--
    and that is a thing you can check it.
    You're going to check it now out.
    You will see.
    I think that the Frisian farmers [INAUDIBLE] better duty.
    Yeah, I understand what you mean from other stories I've heard.
    I can see that other people, like the way they dress,
    the way they talk, because we are Frisian ourselves.
    But there is-- we have to be honest in this, that it's really
    a failure, even under our freedom,
    but even under the domination where we belong to,
    they could have done better.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now.
    OK.
    Let's see if that fits into this scale at all.
    The scale goes down in that.
    So first you thought the people from those different classes,
    the rich farmers, before the war,
    you thought well of them before the war or no--
    Well, not really well, but more tolerated.
    More like in the--
    Like in the middle.
    Yeah, certainly in the middle.
    Yeah, there were a lot of nice people and good people too.
    And then, during the war, your feelings changed.
    Oh, yeah.
    And then during the war, it went more to did not think well of.
    No, there are still good ones.
    Even some good farmers who did their duty.
    But there was too much failure.
    So we thought less well of them.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    So I think maybe, of this scale, when
    you thought less well, if you used to think here, now you
    move down to there?
    Yeah.
    Is that about right?
    Yeah, yeah.
    You write down.
    I see your finger going down [CROSS TALK]
    Yeah, OK.
    Now before the war, did you have any feelings about Jews?
    Yes, we did.
    OK.
    Is it--
    That was the only Jew what I know.
    That's the only one.
    And on a scale of 1 to 7, did you think well of the Jews knew
    or not well.
    It was was with the one.
    That was the one that I thought really well of him.
    Real well.
    Yeah.
    And then during the war, did your feelings change?
    No.
    No.
    OK.
    And before the war, did you have any feelings about Gypsies?
    The--
    You remember the--
    I never gave them thought.
    OK.
    And obviously they should be saying something about it.
    You should have passed by these questions.
    I think she cannot say anything.
    I can-- I can explain that.
    Yeah, OK.
    And it should explain, because otherwise [INAUDIBLE]..
    If you go your page back, I should explain that.
    Sure.
    Before the war, our thinking about the Jews,
    and you are Jewish too yourself, you know?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Don't let your feelings hurt, OK?
    No.
    Because that is too important.
    Our feeling about the Jews was that they were smarter than us.
    And in business, we did not always like their attitude.
    But that is about the limit.
    On the other hand, there were enough in business
    of our own people, some who had the same attitude.
    I understand.
    And maybe come further and further.
    And now, I heard these meanings, and this
    is a very important thing--
    the Jews have to be very careful that if they
    see the tremendous wrong what has been done to [INAUDIBLE]..
    I am sometimes ashamed myself to belong to the white race.
    But the Jews have to be very careful that they also
    start to work under their own.
    And I have that experience in Canada.
    And I go along with the Jewish people [INAUDIBLE]..
    You can ask those people to do what they think of it.
    They say, well.
    But there is one little thing in the Jewish people.
    They are a little bit of too smart.
    And that does not backfire [? at us.
    ?] Don't give-- those people who don't believe in God and thing,
    don't give them any lead in their hands that they can pick
    on the Jewish people.
    I say this for your sake, for your well-being.
    Really, that's the reason that we feel so much about.
    But is not-- and even we can improve.
    We all can improve.
    But it is the nature of the Jew--
    Yeah, I understand.
    --that those people are handy, quick thinkers, business people.
    You know that as good as I do.
    And sometimes there are white people,
    and especial unbelievers, we have no [INAUDIBLE],,
    because we see our own [INAUDIBLE]..
    But you cannot always stand that use Jewish power.
    See what happens in the east.
    Out of nothing, they built up a nation.
    They are persecuted.
    They are thrown to the ground.
    And still they are there.
    And they will always be there, that they never
    goes under the way we feel.
    You see?
    But that is a different--
    Why do you think that is?
    Well, that is the prediction in the Bible.
    We are Bible believers.
    And what happens with the Jewish race is predicted in the Bible.
    I don't know if you read the Bible.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    OK.
    OK, but with the unbelievers--
    Yeah, they look at--
    --why do you think that they feel different?
    Well, there are two powers working in this one.
    And that is--
    I agree with one more thing.
    Now the one power is the power who
    believe in the Jew, the Christ.
    And the other power is opposite of that.
    Those two powers, they are always
    fighting and always working--
    underground and in the open and underground.
    Even if everything looks nice, these powers are working,
    and we are well aware of that.
    And that is what happened.
    It has been predicted too but is a little contradictory.
    I've felt that in the meeting too.
    But we say, the facts are there.
    Now the Bible also says that the wrongdoings, they will be there.
    But who?
    Through whom they are done.
    And that is where we have to work.
    So we have to step all together, the goodwill, and even
    in the war time.
    In the Dutch underground we had even communists.
    We had even atheists.
    But we said, if you want to follow the commandment
    of Christ, we work together.
    We say the same to the Jews and the same to the Gypsies.
    But indeed the other way, then we say we don't hate you.
    And if the people of our own denomination, our own church,
    and they do the wrong thing, then we
    say your Christian name doesn't make you any good.
    Right.
    So see?
    That is where the whole thing boils down.
    That is where the secret of this whole business is.
    And that is the right understanding,
    that we together, we work together
    with Jews and everybody.
    If they follow, we do not care what name they have
    or what color.
    If they are rich or poor, we don't care.
    We care for that one thing, and that is the basic idea
    that we follow the teaching of the Jew, Christ,
    which is the good one.
    Right.
    I think that that's going--
    I hope that that's going to come out of this,
    that people are going to learn.
    Yeah.
    Hear that.
    They will be driven through these things
    to [INAUDIBLE] that they can do a lot of work,
    and let them work, because it is good for things.
    But very finally, what we put down on that
    [INAUDIBLE] we both believe 100% in it.
    And we did it in one [INAUDIBLE],, in one minute.
    Right.
    Right.
    And if they read it, and even if they mark it down
    on a piece of paper, hang it on the wall,
    that is where the secret is.
    That is the key of this whole thing, what happens, right?
    And I feel so sure about it.
    I think when I [INAUDIBLE]---- we--
    got to say "we" now, we talk with the rabbis.
    And the Jewish people, the way we talk with you,
    I can't see that ending.
    OK.
    Now nobody can prove everything.
    That is the reason that we are Protestants in standing.
    We have our own school.
    We paid everything for the education of our children out
    of our own pockets.
    And out of our own pocket we have also
    paid for the atheists, the communists, the socialists,
    or whatever it is [INAUDIBLE],, he
    send to a so-called public school.
    We have to do that under a tremendous handicap.
    But we did it as immigrants.
    In 35 years, we built three schools, three factories,
    and high schools, and we're still doing good in this.
    That's where the secret is.
    See?
    So we are [? the white ?] Jews, now.
    I understand.
    [LAUGHTER]
    OK.
    I understand.
    But they don't always love us that we doing good.
    And we cannot always understand that secret power what we have.
    And that is valuable.
    They find out all kinds of funny things to trick you.
    Basically, that is the reason we feel really
    from what you [INAUDIBLE].
    And that's the reason we do it, align with [INAUDIBLE]..
    We say this morning, if we stay healthy, my wife and I,
    we are willing to do something.
    The first thing what are we going to do
    is to have a talk with the press,
    is a tremendous power in this world.
    Television, radio, and the written word
    is a tremendous power.
    If you bring that out in a practical, nice way,
    the people will drink it in.
    That's good for the nation.
    It's good for all of us.
    Good.
    Yeah.
    So we'll continue.
    But [LAUGHS] we'll continue.
    OK.
    OK.
    I think just one more of these kinds.
    If I talk too much, just tell me.
    No.
    No, it's good it's good to hear it,
    because the answers aren't here.
    The answers are-- is how it comes out from how--
    what these questions lead you to think about.
    So.
    This last one with these kind of.
    Before the war, did you have feelings about the German Nazis
    before the war?
    Before the war.
    I never give it a thought.
    Yeah.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    But [INAUDIBLE].
    I mean you didn't-- you didn't think--
    [INAUDIBLE] people [INAUDIBLE] like the east
    and the west Frisian, and the north Frisian,
    think that is one family [INAUDIBLE]..
    Yes, it's close together.
    I tell you better.
    If Hitler had taken the right Jew, and had Jewish people--
    that believed in the right Jew, he
    would have conquered whole Europe without any trouble.
    But that was his mistake.
    That was his great mistake.
    He was God himself.
    He was not a servant anymore.
    He was the almighty Hitler.
    Everybody should bend down for him.
    But if he had brought--
    I tell you another little story.
    Maybe you will think, hey, don't [INAUDIBLE]..
    Before the war, I myself, as a young man of 23,
    my country didn't need me.
    You know what my country did, a democratic country?
    We made an agreement with Germany, Hitler,
    to have us working there.
    We were friendly nations.
    So it's funny, but it was the truth.
    I was in Germany before the war.
    They had me in Germany.
    They wouldn't let me go.
    I have stood in that in Germany, were the first up,
    in '39 already.
    It was going to hit me on the head.
    So I said, I fight back.
    But they said, what about if we together go to your big boss.
    So the big fist went down.
    At that moment, I make my decision kind of [INAUDIBLE]..
    Said, I am going to get even with you.
    The second thing was, in November '39, I was going to--
    I wanted to go home.
    They said, you should stay here.
    I went to the borders, and I didn't have the right papers.
    They know about it.
    I went back.
    I told them.
    I took the risk.
    I said, even if I have to go on my knees, I go back to my Heime,
    to my motherland.
    And Germany put a stamp on.
    But if we had waited another half year,
    they never would have let me.
    So you knew the kind of way that they were
    treating people that then--
    We knew.
    When I came home--
    and I was glad to have to learned-- to learn German.
    That helped me in the wartime.
    You see?
    Yeah.
    I had even an agreement in the city.
    If they needed me, never come with Germans or whatever
    in my [INAUDIBLE].
    If they needed me in [INAUDIBLE]..
    I heard twice that they were collecting behind me.
    But I was going out again.
    And I was blessed then.
    See, the Germany has always blessed us.
    Has to do big and strong, can be how respectful.
    So we feel your--
    OK?
    Yeah.
    Well, let's see, though.
    But your answer, if I got it right, was that before the war,
    did you have any feelings about the German Nazis?
    There was, no, that you just didn't think about it.
    No, no, no.
    And then during the war did your feelings change?
    Oh, boy.
    Yeah.
    And then what number here describes how they changed--
    if that was well thought of and that was not well thought of?
    This is your feelings about the Nazis.
    Yeah, yeah.
    This is well thought of.
    Oh.
    And that's not well thought of.
    Oh, that's right.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Like to take a little break?
    Stretch?
    Can I bring you something?
    Here, let's-- [AUDIO OUT]
    OK, for these, there's a series of statements
    that I'll read a sentence.
    And if you could tell me if you strongly agree,
    or agree, or disagree, or strongly disagree,
    or don't know, how you respond to a sentence.
    Yeah.
    All right.
    It's sad to see a lonely person in a group.
    Bad or sad?
    It's "sad."
    It is sad to see a lonely person in a group.
    Yeah.
    Do you agree with that or disagree?
    If I see a lonely person--
    A sad--
    Yeah, that's--
    Oh, sorry.
    "It is sad to see a lonely person in a group."
    I disagree.
    Yeah, just a minute there.
    She doesn't get it.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Well, wait.
    If I see a lonely--
    If you see, yeah.
    Does that make you feel sad?
    Yeah, that makes me sad.
    So then you agree with the sentence, that you say yes.
    Yeah, yeah.
    OK.
    OK, you agree that it's sad to see a lonely person in a group.
    Yeah.
    Do you feel strong about that?
    Do you strongly agree?
    Yeah.
    It makes you very sad?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    I love this one.
    I get nervous if people seem nervous.
    Repeat?
    I
    Get nervous if people seem nervous.
    Yeah.
    Yeah, you agree?
    Yeah, you do get nervous when--
    Yeah.
    Do you strongly agree?
    You get very nervous?
    Yeah.
    You get very nervous?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Bringing bad news to people upsets me.
    Yeah.
    Does it upset you very much?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    The words of a song can move me deeply.
    Yeah.
    So you agree, or very much strongly agree?
    Strongly agree.
    OK.
    I get involved with my friends' problems.
    Strongly.
    OK.
    My moods are affected by the people around me.
    Not always.
    OK.
    Would you choose-- would you disagree with that?
    No, not complete.
    Just, "My moods are affected by the people around me."
    Yeah, it makes me down if I see people, yeah, in a bad mood.
    That makes you--
    Yeah.
    So you agree.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    I get upset when my friend is upset.
    Yeah.
    Strongly?
    Yeah.
    Strongly.
    I like to watch people open presents.
    Pardon?
    I like to watch people open presents.
    Gifts.
    Yeah?
    You like to watch someone else?
    Yeah, that makes me nosy.
    Is that a strongly agree?
    Strongly.
    OK.
    I get very upset when I see someone hurt.
    Yeah.
    Is that a agree or a strongly agree?
    Strongly.
    OK.
    The feelings of people in a book affect me.
    When you read a book--
    Yeah?
    --are you involved with their feelings?
    No.
    Not--
    If it is in book of a story involved, yes.
    But if it is just in--
    that is-- I don't know
    OK.
    That's a don't-- seeing people cry upsets me.
    Mm.
    This all depends what kind of mood I am in.
    Mm-hmm.
    In general?
    Usually?
    Sometimes, if he-- if it's something
    he will see right away, and I feel a lot stronger.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    [INAUDIBLE] I am much more weaknesses than that.
    As a thing, maybe that is expected,
    because she is quite a strong--
    she is more strong than I am.
    I'm a lady, and this, couple days, kind of
    more weak because of those things that I hear again.
    And now I'm a kind of-- so I'm in some tears.
    But if there's something [INAUDIBLE] more than
    he is than I am.
    I am more sensitive than she is.
    But it depends on.
    She is also upset about things I'm not upset.
    But it depends a lot on the background.
    If there is a person crying for nothing,
    then she say, what kind of [INAUDIBLE]..
    But if she cries for really something, which is very bad,
    like I was crying when I got a letter from my [INAUDIBLE]..
    It hits me so hard.
    And then she [INAUDIBLE] with her feeling
    at the same [INAUDIBLE].
    Well, let's see.
    Seeing people cry upsets me.
    Say it depends on why they are crying.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    OK.
    I usually stay calm when others worry.
    Agreed.
    OK.
    Is that a strongly or a regular agree?
    Are you strongly, usually stay very calm, or--
    Stayed calm.
    OK.
    Agree.
    My decisions are not influenced by people's feelings.
    Yes.
    You agree.
    Yeah.
    All right.
    Are your decisions influenced or not influenced?
    Want to make sure that was communicated.
    My decisions are not influenced by people's feelings.
    Yeah.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Oh, that is definitely, it boils all down to the same thing.
    She had been [INAUDIBLE] what other people say, and chose
    and do.
    But it's just a lot [INAUDIBLE] is a line of clothes for them,
    of how you look.
    Yeah, she's touchy, very touchy.
    But on the other hand, if there are people coming over
    with all kind of things, and she sees it through, that she says,
    well, this is a no-good thing, then she is [INAUDIBLE]..
    So It boils all down to that one thing--
    what is the motive of the deed?
    And that makes the difference in the reaction.
    That it's just when something-- somebody do something--
    You see, for instance, I had--
    I wanted to say to you, in the army, I say this.
    In a group of people, I said, if I take a rifle
    and I shoot somebody and kill them, see what I am.
    And nobody may have the answer.
    They said, what do you mean?
    I says you--
    I ask you.
    And then they say, you explain it.
    I say, I am a murderer if the man is innocent and doesn't
    want to kill me.
    But I said, on the other hand, if he has a rifle,
    and he wants to shoot me, I said, I did my duty.
    And that is where the whole thing boils down,
    that motive behind the deed.
    You cannot go out with the deed itself.
    What is behind it?
    Is that?
    Yeah.
    It sounds right, yeah?
    Yeah.
    Mm-hmm.
    OK.
    I feel bad if people around me are sad.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    I agree.
    OK.
    I get very upset when I see an animal in pain.
    Oh, yeah.
    That's a strongly agree?
    Yeah, we have a cat at home.
    Yeah?
    I have a cat too.
    [LAUGHS]
    It upsets me to see helpless people.
    Pardon?
    It upsets me to see helpless people.
    Yeah.
    Strongly?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Children sometimes cry for no reason.
    I just spank them.
    Well, do you agree that children sometimes cry for no reason?
    No.
    I don't agree with it.
    You agree that they cry because of something.
    You turn it around.
    Yeah.
    If you turn it around.
    Well, those are my own thoughts.
    Yeah, but then you--
    that thing is not going to be the real thing.
    That doesn't make us upset.
    If our children are raised-- she raised the children,
    and I agree with that other children were
    crying for no reason at all.
    It's just a big groggy, she gave them a spanking.
    We got the same thing too.
    Our kids are wonderful.
    We have no trouble with our kids.
    We went out when the oldest kids were that high.
    We put them in front of a glass--
    how do you call it?
    Television?
    The television?
    [INAUDIBLE] you remember?
    Yeah.
    And they were playing there for hours and didn't touch it.
    Oh, oh, oh, I see.
    Yeah.
    And that [INAUDIBLE] say, hey, what kind of kids are that?
    They don't test it.
    They said, mother learned it.
    But you know how mother learned?
    If she said you cannot do that, and we did do that,
    then we got spanking.
    Now they got a very little bit spanking.
    But they know when they did wrong that they got it from her.
    See?
    I have to explain it to you, because that is the way it is.
    I understand this.
    People never could understand our children.
    They said, you got a lot of spanking?
    Said no.
    But they say, they know that when they do wrong,
    and they say it once or twice to them, they going to get it.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That's what I'm trying to teach my puppy.
    [LAUGHS]
    We have a cat.
    We had three cats.
    So the first cat got a little spanking.
    The second one.
    But they both killed on the road.
    So we careful, we got no.
    We went to a specialist.
    What we should do?
    Says, you should [INAUDIBLE] a mistake.
    OK.
    The third cat is so [INAUDIBLE],, when
    we are on Sunday, [INAUDIBLE] time and again,
    that he hit it so hard, and hit it in the cat.
    The cat runs through the property line at the street,
    and he turns around.
    A cat.
    So a cat has her own mind.
    That cat we have what?
    Four years?
    Five.
    Yeah.
    And a beautiful animal.
    Had strength and discipline.
    But if the cat got hit, then we take him over arm,
    and we tell him that he shouldn't do that again,
    and he is not going to hit again if he is a nice cat.
    That cat is a [INAUDIBLE].
    Oh, smart.
    [? Tiger ?] is so smart.
    But basically the smart is brought on with vegetables
    and hard hands.
    Well, let me try this question again.
    Children sometimes cry for no reason.
    Is that?
    Yeah.
    Well, tell the lady you hit it.
    Well, but that's-- but that's not really.
    No.
    I have to say disagree then.
    You disagree?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, OK.
    OK.
    I get irritated rather than sympathetic
    when I see someone cry.
    Does it make you irritated or do you--
    Tense.
    Tense.
    Yeah.
    Regular or a lot?
    Would that be agree?
    Agree, yeah.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    It is no use worrying about current events
    or public affairs.
    I really can't do anything about them anyway.
    Repeat please.
    It is no use worrying about current events
    or public affairs.
    I can't do anything about them anyway,
    things that go on in the world.
    Yeah, that's a hard question for me too that.
    Well, it is the same thing as concerns.
    But you cannot fight.
    So you cannot go back so deep.
    And even in your problem, there are certain limits
    where we have to stop.
    That we say, well, we can't work anymore.
    We can pray for those people.
    So there's a limit.
    So you do so much for it that you can afford to do.
    But for the rest, you cannot.
    It can bother you.
    But that is also, I can tell you they're going people
    in the grave, if you really dig in the Jewish problem what
    happens in the war, that is very serious.
    With Jews, there is a limited and even further
    to say, well, we go that far.
    Yeah.
    Because as a human being, you cannot take all the misfits
    in this world on your shoulders.
    So there is a limit simply.
    Sure, it concerns you.
    Yeah.
    And very much so.
    But not to an extent that it breaks down.
    Because then it doesn't help anybody anymore.
    OK.
    Every person should give some time
    for the good of the town or country.
    Yeah.
    Yeah?
    Agree?
    Yeah.
    So the strongly agree or agree?
    Every person should give some time
    for the good of the country?
    Strongly agree.
    OK.
    When I work on a committee, I usually
    let other people do most of the planning.
    That means if I go I'm a member of the choir.
    Yeah?
    And I was in the board.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Well, that meant you got the same [INAUDIBLE] that
    is in both families and I tell the honest what happens.
    If it is really hard, then we call.
    Then I speak up.
    We are serious.
    So what happens in her choir, it was a big mess.
    The books and everything was wrong.
    She worked for a year for everything, for years,
    and said everything, spick and span.
    Well, there you are.
    See?
    We are not the people that we come forward and say
    that has to be done like this.
    No, we are working.
    And the other thing with the same choir,
    there were some songs that we had to sing.
    I didn't agree.
    And I stood up for that.
    So it's what you say, is usually if it's something routine,
    then it doesn't matter.
    But if it's something that you care about,
    then you come forward.
    Yeah, then I stand up.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That lady should know that little story about you
    in church.
    Yeah.
    Maybe--
    Just a minute.
    Yeah.
    Shut it off?
    No.
    It's fine.
    Yeah?
    Yeah, it's fine.
    We're going to go all over the place probably.
    No, it's fine.
    No, OK.
    The story?
    It's off?
    No.
    You want it off?
    I can shut it off.
    Yeah, OK.
    I'm understanding.
    OK.
    Letting people down is not so bad
    because you can't do good all the time for everybody.
    That's right.
    You agree?
    Yeah.
    So strongly agree or agree?
    Yeah, just agree.
    OK.
    If it's worth starting, it's worth finishing.
    Yeah, I agree.
    OK.
    It is the duty of each person to do the best he or she can.
    Agree.
    People would be a lot better off if they
    could live far away from other people
    and never have anything to do with them.
    Agree, strongly agree.
    Strongly agree.
    I feel very bad when I have failed to finish something
    I promised I would do.
    Yeah, agree.
    I feel that I'm as good as anybody else.
    Yeah, agree.
    OK.
    I feel that I have a number of good qualities.
    Well, the Lord gave me five talents.
    So if I have one, I'm not happy with it.
    In general, I'm inclined to feel that I am a failure.
    Repeat please?
    In general, I am inclined to feel that I am a failure.
    No.
    I feel that I have much to be proud about myself.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I am able to do things as well as most other people.
    Yeah.
    I wish I could have more respect for myself.
    Yeah.
    You wish you could have more respect for yourself?
    Sometimes.
    OK.
    I take a positive attitude about myself.
    Oh, boy.
    He's more positive than I am.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    She is the negative, I'm the positive.
    OK?
    I preach like an old preacher for a lifetime.
    She has good qualities, but she doesn't see them.
    She is more concerned about what she does not
    have then what she has.
    And I tell her always, forget about what you don't have.
    What you have will be enough.
    We were always right, always good.
    Now, I'm the positive thinker in the family.
    Yeah, yeah.
    She's a negative thinker.
    Not always.
    No?
    Not always.
    But that should be understood good, what
    belongs her work as a place where
    she has to raise the children to care for the house, she's 100%.
    Nobody beats her.
    If you see our little house, how neat everything and [INAUDIBLE]..
    So there you are.
    If I say to her, well, you have to go with me and lay a drain.
    Now then, she's a hopeless one.
    Yeah.
    Well what about just how do you respond to I
    take a positive attitude about myself?
    I don't know.
    Don't know.
    OK.
    In general, I am satisfied with myself.
    Yeah.
    Strongly agree?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    At times I think I am no good at all.
    No.
    I wouldn't say that.
    You would disagree?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    Now these are answered just true/false.
    This is just see how it goes.
    Sometimes an individual's ability is not recognized.
    Yeah, I don't know what's that.
    Ability?
    Sometimes other people don't see what
    a person is capable of doing.
    Do you want to say in your own language?
    Yeah.
    Well I say [NON-ENGLISH] That we do not recognize,
    that is an English word, and don't see that in you.
    So that you don't get the credit, no, I speak English.
    But really but you do good.
    So remember what I gave you in that little piece what
    you put on the piano?
    Yeah.
    So that is where the whole thing is.
    If you are good in your housekeeping, I say that.
    And other people don't recognize.
    They will recognize it as soon as they
    made the clean cup of coffee what you got it down
    [INAUDIBLE].
    Yeah.
    Yeah, oh yeah.
    Now I got it.
    Yeah.
    So sometimes an individual's ability is not recognized.
    That's true?
    Yeah.
    Ability of-- ability?
    Ability.
    Oh, ability.
    Oh yeah, that is positive.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Students grades in school depend on their own efforts.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    I joke to my students?
    Oh then it is you, you.
    Yeah, that depends on their own effort.
    If they fail, they shouldn't point to somebody else.
    OK?
    What it doesn't take away that a good teacher means a lot.
    Sure.
    Sure.
    OK.
    Getting what I want has little or nothing to do with luck.
    [NON-ENGLISH] or is it just plain luck?
    That is a real good point.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    Look, if you want to have something, you have to work.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Getting what I want.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    But that is not luck.
    That is you have to work for it.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    When I make plans I am almost certain that I
    will make them work.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Getting a good job depends mainly
    on being in the right place at the right time.
    Yeah.
    Who gets to be boss is a person who is lucky enough
    to be in the right place first.
    He's the boss.
    I'm the second boss.
    What?