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Oral history interview with Leo Wasserman

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1991.A.0117.7 | RG Number: RG-50.044.0007

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    Oral history interview with Leo Wasserman
    Transcript
    When did you first come to America?
    1940.
    I came from Arnstadt.
    I went on the, around the 12th of November, '38,
    I came to Dachau.
    And after two weeks, I came out of the concentration camp,
    with a rabbi, Dr. Baerwald, on a Friday afternoon.
    And from there, I went home.
    And I had my tickets to Cuba.
    But I needed a permission to go from Amsterdam
    to Liverpool on the boat.
    So I had to go back to--
    I had everything paid in dollars.
    And I had to go to Munich, to the counselor for England,
    but he didn't give me the permission--
    the [INAUDIBLE] visa.
    From Liverpool-- from Amsterdam to Liverpool for the boat.
    So what could I do?
    I went back and sent my passport--
    I wrote down, German passport, for myself and for my mother,
    and sent it to Amsterdam to a lawyer.
    And he went to Amsterdam to the consul,
    and he made the visa in.
    And they sent it back to me.
    But I forgot to tell you that--
    the English consul sent in Munich to me--
    it was paid in dollars--
    [SPEAKING GERMAN]
    And he wouldn't give me the permission.
    So I got my papers back, and I went to Amsterdam, Liverpool,
    and then went with a boat--
    I think it was Orduna, from Liverpool to Havana.
    And did you live in Havana for a while?
    We went over a year in Havana.
    With my mother, uncle and aunt, and daughter, and cousin.
    Before you went to Havana, you lived in Nuremberg?
    No, I lived in [GERMAN] Oberfranken,
    it's about 37 miles--
    kilometer from Nuremberg.
    Did you ever live in Nuremberg?
    I was in Nuremberg in three or four years in [GERMAN]..
    From about '23 to '26--
    1923 to 1926.
    Then I went back to Arnstadt when my father got sick.
    And I was in Arnstadt.
    Then the Nazis came.
    And we had a raid, of course, 1938,
    that picked me up, in spite of my tickets that I leave.
    Within a week or two, one of the policemen, and they
    took us to Dachau.
    Now, that's on Kristallnacht?
    No, that was afterwards.
    It was three or four days afterwards.
    On Kristallnacht, they collected us and put in a house,
    in a Jewish home, on [GERMAN]--
    they were not there anymore.
    And they had to stay overnight there.
    The next day we went home, but they put us out to Dachau.
    We had to go from Arnstadt to Forchheim,
    and take the [GERMAN] to Munich, to Dachau.
    But in the train we were already,
    they picked the Jews from Bamberg, Herscheid,
    and Forchheim came, and we all went down.
    Was it the men only?
    Or was it--
    Older men.
    No women-- no, older men.
    And then, I had to sit in the [GERMAN]..
    And they had to look for an hour or more,
    all I see is the light in the ceiling.
    To pass by the eyes, you know.
    And we came to Dachau, and a truck was standing there,
    and picked them up, and [INAUDIBLE]
    the man was not fast enough, they hit them right away.
    And they went in the truck.
    Since we went to Dachau, they had to undress,
    and gave us a pajamas.
    That was all what we had.
    This was in November, it was cold.
    So they had to go inside, they sprayed us with hot water.
    And we had to stand outside for several hours.
    I don't know if it was a little snow maybe.
    You know, in November, it's cold down in Dachau--
    in Bayern near Munich.
    And then they put us--
    took our names and everything, and put us in the barracks,
    you know.
    I think I was in the number 16.
    So they gave us a blanket and a little throw,
    and we were laying there.
    Was the camp crowded at that time?
    Yeah, it was crowded.
    And they came from all sides-- they come from Austria,
    from all sides they came.
    And we have plenty of old ones there already.
    How long were you in Dachau?
    About two weeks.
    And I had my ticket, you know?
    And the lawyer from Amsterdam, he asked for me.
    And after two weeks, I came out with Dr. Baerwald, I remember.
    He walked out of there.
    There were about 10 people.
    Dr. Baerwald was who?
    Rabbi, a rabbi from Munich.
    He was here in New York, with a [GERMAN]..
    And one morning, when we washed ourselves,
    then we had to go out, and it was only a few feet away.
    It was on the wall.
    And in the bathroom, I heard one shot, and they killed that man.
    He was from Weiden Oberpfalz.
    I forgot his name.
    His wife was here, too-- the children.
    One shot, shot him to death.
    And every day, we had to go out, and stand there for hours.
    In the cold, or the--
    they didn't [INAUDIBLE] you know that they watch you.
    Every day, something happened.
    What did you do when you were outside?
    Was there a work that you had to perform?
    Nothing to do.
    Nothing to do.
    We only had to stay there.
    Inside, I had to take the names from the people who
    came from Austria.
    I had to write down the names.
    Did people continue to come in while you were there
    those two weeks?
    More people?
    Every day came people.
    From the whole country.
    And then some left, they put them to Buchenwald.
    My neighbor was in Dachau, and he was in Buchenwald here.
    Well, what is his name?
    Safran.
    He was in Buchenwald, and Dachau, I
    don't know how many months.
    And then, they transferred him to Buchenwald.
    Do you know whether--
    of the people that were arrested with you, from your town--
    whether others were released at the same time you were?
    From my town?
    No, no, no, my uncle was there.
    I never saw him again.
    Later on, they killed him and his wife.
    Not in Dachau, I don't know where.
    Different camp, I guess.
    Were all the men arrested from your town?
    Had you been at home, I think one was in a different village,
    and one wasn't home.
    He was just in [INAUDIBLE] Nuremberg, with Anna.
    And he came home, we were gone, you know.
    I don't know what they did with him.
    He was here, he died already.
    When people were in Dachau, they spoke to one
    another about how they were picked up?
    Not much.
    You couldn't speak.
    They watched you, you know.
    Barrack, in the camp, or in the room, where you could speak,
    you know.
    We had in my room were people from Munich.
    Mr. Ulfert and his son, they had a Kaufhaus Ulfert in Munich.
    And even later on, I hear, to India.
    They had a big [INAUDIBLE].
    And then I came back and wanted my passport in Munich,
    they denied the visa.
    I wasn't [INAUDIBLE],, gave him regards,
    he was still at the camp.
    Did you get an impression, either then or later,
    that certain individuals were arrested,
    or was it all the men who were Jewish?
    Well, you had different people there, already.
    But all the men were Jewish.
    When I was there, I saw the [GERMAN] Schmidt from Vienna,
    I think he was the old burgermeister.
    And one from the princes--
    prince-- I don't know, William, or I don't know, from Austria.
    And they had to pull--
    how do you say, when you make the streets?
    The-- they had to put it there.
    They made some streets--
    [INAUDIBLE],, Schmidt, I guess was his name,
    Smith you say here, no?
    And I think Prince Wilhelm or William--
    and I don't know, one of them.
    They had to put him in there.
    The question that I'm asking is about Kristallnacht--
    did you get an impression that all the men were arrested
    unless they were at home?
    Oh, no, all the men were arrested, sure.
    And do you think that was just in your town, or generally?
    It was generally in all places.
    And they destroyed the temple, the synagogue.
    We had 17 Sefers, they burned them on the street.
    And I think the Jewish people-- a few who
    were left, they had to put a chunk together the ashes,
    you know, having to put together-- we had 17 Sefers.
    They burned them all.
    And I had a day before, yahrzeit and put one there,
    and wanted to take it home with me over here.
    But everything was burnt.
    Did you know something was going to happen?
    I didn't know it, no.
    It came overnight, you know.
    You said, you wanted to take something home the day before?
    No, because I wanted to go away.
    I had wanted to take it to America.
    What did the people who lived in the town
    do while this was going on?
    They already came and looked at us-- they didn't say a word.
    They came and looked what happened to the Jews.
    They didn't speak a word.
    Were any of the people from the town--
    any of the people that were involved in the action--
    known to you?
    Maybe one or two, I don't know the name anymore.
    They're mostly from the outside--
    strangers, you know.
    They brought them in.
    Did anything happen in your town before Kristallnacht?
    Only they destroyed on the cemetery--
    they threw over three graves a few years before, already.
    Who did that?
    I don't know.
    We don't know.
    They never found them.
    We only saw they were there this.
    But we couldn't tell, we didn't see it, you know.
    How did the people in your town act
    towards you and the other Jewish people, let's say, before 1933?
    And then, during the Hitler period, until the end?
    You had only a few Nazis.
    You didn't have many, you know.
    My grandfather-- they were a few hundred years already
    in that place, you know.
    But afterwards, everybody wanted to be a Nazi, you know.
    And our neighbors, for instance, when my father died in 1936,
    he was home and cried because he couldn't go to the funeral.
    He was afraid to go to the funeral.
    But at the end, the army, 1914-'18 together,
    in the army they was in.
    And they couldn't do anything, you know?
    That was the [INAUDIBLE].
    I knew a farmer from the first war, he got a pension.
    And they forced him-- if you don't go in the party,
    we take your pension away.
    So he came to me and said, Leo, I am a Nazi now, he said.
    He had to do it, you know?
    In order to get the money.
    What kind of work did you do before you left?
    I had a business from my father I took over.
    We had cattle, you know.
    And then, I worked for my uncle, too.
    He had corn, and beans, and everything.
    And [GERMAN],, you know, he sold to the farmers.
    But it was already started in 1933,
    they were in front of our door, so nobody could get in.
    A farmer that nobody can go in.
    That was there, you know.
    That was the boycott in 1933?
    '33-- in April, it was 1st of April.
    After the boycott, did business begin again with the--
    Not so much.
    They were afraid, you know, later on.
    You had to go to this office and that office,
    so you are very lucky that they give you a card to deal again,
    you know.
    They had to have the permission, you know.
    This was permission that was given to the non-Jewish people,
    or to the Jewish people?
    To the Jewish people had the permission.
    Who got these permissions?
    What?
    Who got these permissions?
    Later on?
    Oh, different people, you know.
    Some Nazi, some were not.
    Not everybody could have a business.
    But they take the hundreds cut away from you, you know.
    So you couldn't do anything anymore.
    And they came checked that you paid
    your taxes, and everything.
    How did you manage to make a living after 1933?
    We had a small business, then we had our own food.
    We had the garden and everything.
    And our own milk and everything.
    My mother was afraid to sell the milk anymore.
    This morning we became, they want
    to buy all [INAUDIBLE] milk every day.
    And we were afraid that [INAUDIBLE]
    that you been hoarding, you know.
    So rather, we threw it away.
    I remember, my mother said, I throw the milk out.
    And I put water in, and they come--
    they don't believe me, they believe them, right?
    Isn't it true?
    How big was the town that you lived in?
    At this time, maybe 1,000 or 1,100.
    Now was it about 3,000 or 4,000.
    And of the 1,000 or 1,100 people,
    about how many families were Jewish?
    Later on, we didn't have so many Jews anymore.
    But in the year 1780, we had about 220 Jews, I found out.
    We were about-- in the '50s when I left,
    they all left, you know, or less, you know.
    About 1,700, 20 or the 40, I don't know exactly anymore.
    And then 220 Jews there.
    And at the end?
    And you know why?
    Because in our place, in our section was no ghetto.
    And you went some other places, like Nuremberg-- no Jews
    was allowed to live there.
    In Bamberg, was far a while no Jews allowed to live.
    So they were [INAUDIBLE] ever the Jews,
    because they had no ghetto.
    And the Jews, they welcomed, you know.
    In Nuremberg was no Jew welcome, from around 1400 to 1850,
    about, I don't know exactly.
    Do you have any idea how old the synagogue was in your town?
    That I don't know exactly.
    I don't know if it was this one, or is that's built again.
    That I don't know.
    And there were 1,700 Jews there, and 220 Jews in here,
    1,700 1,800 already.
    And towards the end, in 1938, how many families, or how many
    Jews do you think were left?
    About 40, 50-- oh, they're still there.
    One was-- one family they had 13 children.
    One is still here.
    Killed about the children, and sisters and brothers, about 20,
    at least I knew.
    There were five or six brothers, and they're all in the army,
    in the First World War.
    My father was from 1914 to '18 in the army.
    First against Russia, after that, it was against France.
    And was there a monument in your town?
    We had a monument, and my first school teacher--
    I mean, was a--
    a Yiddish [NON-ENGLISH].
    He died in August 1940, already.
    He got killed.
    His name was [NON-ENGLISH] or [NON-ENGLISH]..
    His nephew is still here in New York.
    It's about 25 years.
    My camera moved here.
    I moved my camera.
    I was listening to see if we hear the piano.
    That's over there.
    Yeah.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    OK.
    When you left, you left with your wife
    and your mother-in-law?
    No wife-- I married here.
    I married 1942.
    I left with my mother.
    And when you were released from Dachau,
    did she meet you somewhere?
    No, she was sick at home.
    She was sick-- I went home, directly home.
    In the meantime, my grandmother, is 86 years,
    she left already with her son and daughter-in-law
    and granddaughter.
    She left for Cuba-- they were two weeks ahead of us.
    I missed the boat and had to take another boat.
    Do you remember how long you waited for the documents
    that you needed to go to America?
    I couldn't go to America, directly.
    I had to go to Cuba.
    Because I didn't have a number.
    And in Cuba, we had to wait over a year.
    Tell me a little bit about how that worked with the numbers.
    I don't know.
    I really don't know.
    I mean, they had to go to Stuttgart to get the number.
    And then, when it's their time, they
    called you, said, you get your papers.
    For instance, my wife, she was not married,
    she came over here in 1934.
    She didn't have to wait not long--
    they didn't ask for anything.
    Because she had an affidavit from her uncle,
    or from a congressman--
    Congressman Seller from Brooklyn.
    Remember?
    He was over 50 years congressman?
    He sent a letter with the papers with this.
    They always send the papers.
    So she didn't ask anything.
    And you see, they come to the United States,
    you know, is the paper.
    She was here in 1934.
    Everyone needed a sponsor?
    Everyone.
    We had plenty people that did--
    that the United States that they didn't do anything.
    They had to die.
    In Cuba, they called us, and we got our papers.
    Who called you?
    The ambassador in Cuba.
    And we were non-citizen anymore, you know?
    And we are not Germans anymore.
    So we came over here.
    That was you and your mother?
    My mother-- the other ones left a few weeks before, or later,
    the month before.
    Because they were before a year in Cuba.
    What did you do in Cuba for that year?
    Nothing.
    You couldn't do-- you couldn't work.
    Was not allowed to work.
    Some worked a little, you know.
    How did people manage to support themselves for that year?
    And actually, well, we had.
    You had people here that sent you some money
    so that you could live--
    the life-- everything was cheap.
    Pound of meat was $0.20, $0.25.
    Was here the same.
    I bought a loaf of bread yesterday, $1.20.
    When I came over here, was $0.09.
    When you left Germany, what could you take?
    I don't know, was it 50 or 60 mark I could take--
    in money.
    And I could take my furniture, everything.
    You could take your furniture?
    Everything-- that, I took.
    But I threw it over-- it's still broke.
    It was 200 years old, maybe.
    How did you get your things over?
    In a Nuremberger transport--
    I forgot the name, what it was.
    They crated it and everything, and send it over.
    I wasn't there anymore-- they picked it up.
    I had to pay ahead--
    I don't know what anymore.
    Now, was that arranged from Cuba?
    No, that was arranged from when I was over there.
    I arranged it before I came to Dachau already.
    Now, was it just a coincidence that your papers
    arrived about the time that you were taken to Dachau?
    We had them before.
    I mean, and then I had--
    it was at the same time that I had--
    you know, when you had the papers,
    they let you out again in Dachau, you know.
    How long before did you have your papers to leave?
    Not long ago, maybe a month.
    I don't know.
    And were you planning--
    Because you had to-- we had no planes, then.
    Boat-- I had a different boat, but I
    couldn't go with the boat.
    I missed that boat.
    Once was Orbita, this other one was
    Orduna, one of them I missed.
    I went from Liverpool to Cuba, you know.
    I went to France, then to Cuba.
    So your arrangements to leave had already been completed.
    That was arranged for me, but they took me along.
    So my mother had to stay with me.
    How old was your mother?
    When she was-- say, 40, about 60 years, 58 years.
    She died here when I was in the army.
    You want to hear from the army something?
    I'll come to that.
    Let me go back the other way.
    What years did you spend in the Nuremberg area?
    When I was in Nuremberg, about three or four years.
    And during what period of time was that?
    1923-- I was before, in fact, 1918, the First World War,
    to '23, then I went to Nuremberg.
    And was about till 1926--
    I don't know exactly anymore.
    And that was to work?
    Yeah.
    [CROSS TALK] [GERMAN].
    What kind of a business was that?
    Celluloid, you know, that is like they make now plastic,
    you know.
    That was celluloid, they make [INAUDIBLE] dolls,
    and they make the handles on the bicycle.
    And on the women's bicycle--
    [GERMAN],, you remember, you know?
    Like here, so they don't get the garment in.
    And dolls.
    Was a big place.
    They had about over 200 workers.
    Was a Jewish company.
    What was Nuremberg like in those years?
    Well, nice and old city, but nice.
    I saw what they [GERMAN] down, in [GERMAN] in Nuremberg.
    First, there maybe-- when he came out, 25 people, and 75,
    you see how it grew.
    Then there are 250, and how the Nazis--
    and they picked them up again.
    It was in the [GERMAN],, that where
    they had later after the war-- when the war was over,
    the Nazis are there already.
    Did you know my father in those years in Nuremberg?
    Sure, he was [INAUDIBLE] with me at school.
    And was another Bauman in Nuremberg--
    in a shoe factory.
    A cousin of your father, I guess.
    Was it another Bauman?
    It was a Bauman.
    There was a Julius Bauman in a clothing business.
    My father's uncle.
    No, there was a different Bauman--
    he was by Heimann's shoe factory.
    Your father knows him.
    Don't know if he's still alive.
    I never saw him again.
    Tell me a little bit about Furth.
    Furth was a nice Jewish city, you know.
    Had a lot of religious people.
    And I went mostly to minyan--
    in [GERMAN],, where your father was, [GERMAN] in [GERMAN]..
    I don't know, the name is now a rabbi or something,
    I don't know.
    If it is the [GERMAN] there, the corners-- do you remember?
    Still there, I guess.
    What is the rabbi's name?
    He came away with the little children-- they took him away.
    It's Hallmann or Halliman--
    Halliman, I guess.
    I didn't know him.
    And your father was there, was the Rabbi Dr. Deutsch,
    and the Israeli [NON-ENGLISH] was the Dr. Feichenfeld--
    I lived there.
    In the next house was Dr. [PERSONAL NAME],,
    he gave French--
    he was at school.
    How many children were in the school?
    I don't know, a few hundred, I guess.
    There were a lot of families sent their children
    from other towns?
    Out of town.
    In Furth, I lived with Feichenfeld, some
    with [PERSONAL NAME],, some lived in Nuremberg,
    and came down to serve in that school.
    And then from [PLACE NAME] one I remember, in [INAUDIBLE]..
    Some we had from Norway--
    where I was.
    Then one from Finland, a Jewish boy.
    He was perfect in English at this time, already, 1920,
    he was fluent in English.
    How big a city was Furth?
    Maybe 70,000.
    Or was it 100,000?
    It was-- once I knew 90,000, about 70,000, maybe.
    And what part of the population do you think was Jewish?
    How do you mean, what part?
    I mean, what percentage?
    That, I really don't know.
    In Nuremberg, I guess about over 8,000.
    Over 10,000, I think.
    I remember over 8,000 once.
    In fact, one other--
    another percent which I don't know.
    A lot of Jewish doctors there, Dr. Deitz, I remember.
    Was there a Kissinger, he had a [INAUDIBLE] resale.
    He had a gun--
    a gun school, Kissinger's father.
    [INAUDIBLE] we had so many.
    You have not only Jewish teachers,
    you had other ones, too.
    We had one [INAUDIBLE].
    That was not in our shul--
    the regular realschule was Dr. Dachauer--
    I think, in mathematics he was.
    I think that was in Israel--
    the real Israel.
    We had a Jewish religious leader, Dr. Warszawski.
    And some [INAUDIBLE].
    Dr. Feichenfeld's daughter, Elsa, was terrible.
    Let me jump forward again, when you left Germany for Cuba,
    you left from where?
    From my place, Arnstadt.
    I went to Amsterdam, and Amsterdam
    had to wait a few days.
    So then, I went to Liverpool on the boat.
    We stayed overnight.
    So I have the permission what the English consul
    didn't give me in Munich.
    How did other people act towards you in Munich, let's say,
    in those last few days?
    We didn't speak to many, you know.
    I didn't say anything.
    Maybe they saw that you came from concentration camp,
    then they cut our hair, you know.
    But they didn't say anything.
    The same men came home in your hometown,
    they didn't say a word.
    Did the neighbors still talk with you?
    Sure.
    One of my neighbors had--
    I gave him my house.
    And still has it.
    He's still writing every Christmas to me.
    Did a lot of people sell their homes in the end?
    You had to sell it.
    Tell me about that.
    I gave my home to my neighbor.
    The other ones, they sold it to the neighbors or friends,
    or the people they know, you know.
    And you didn't get much, you understand.
    When you say that you had to sell it,
    how did that come about?
    When you leave, what want you to do?
    You had to have some money to go away, too.
    You had to pay--
    I had to pay my lift and everything I had, you know.
    Had not much money anymore.
    Did the people that lived in your town,
    the non-Jewish people, try to take
    advantage of what was going on?
    No, a lot tried to get advantage, you understand.
    And some other businesses.
    They saw that you had to leave, so they gave them
    what they want, you know.
    You were forced, what could you do?
    What year did--
    I gave one of our--
    we have a lawn, and you know, a piece of grass, you know,
    I gave it to my--
    who worked at home, you know, our maid.
    I gave it to her.
    She gave me the money.
    What was that?
    You know, the lawn, the reasons that you're saying
    [NON-ENGLISH], you know.
    The lawn where they made the hay, you know.
    So I gave it to her.
    And I knew she had some money, and she
    was years and years with us.
    And so I gave it to her.
    So I say, it's better that you have
    this-- that you have the money, then your money will go again,
    you won't get anything for the money, inflation.
    Now, when you sold your home, were you
    able to make a claim later on?
    Or was that just, that was gone?
    I didn't want to make a claim, because it was my neighbor.
    Maybe you could get a few hundred dollars, or $1,000.
    It was my neighbor we went to school together.
    Some claimed-- they got a little bit.
    My uncle had a house--
    I didn't want to claim it.
    So an Israeli took the money.
    Was the synagogue in your town actually destroyed?
    The building?
    No, the building was not destroyed.
    And I think then they took it now a few years apart--
    and I don't know what happened to it, I wasn't here anymore.
    It was still standing there, and they put in, I think,
    a machinery for the fire department.
    They put in.
    At some point, he bought it, I don't know.
    So I gave at this time--
    we gave the permission to Frankfurt,
    I don't know what place it was, they should do with it
    what they want, you understand.
    They claimed-- I don't know what they got for it.
    What could you get?
    That was [NON-ENGLISH],, you know.
    And it was here, like upstairs where the women,
    or downstairs where the men, you know.
    But they throw everything down.
    Until Kristallnacht, was the synagogue still used regularly?
    Yeah, I was the day before-- and I had the outside--
    this is this week, I have [NON-ENGLISH],, I mean,
    in Yiddish, it changed a little, you know.
    My father died on the 31st of October.
    And that was the reason I had a Sefer, I put it there.
    If I would have taken it home, maybe I would have saved it.
    But I didn't know.
    I only took the wimple home, you know what
    is the wimple around the Sefer?
    Can I get up?
    I show you-- I think I have it.
    And now--
    You took that home the day before?
    I took it home the day before.
    The next day, I wanted to take the Sefer.
    I didn't take mine home, because that was--
    that's in Hebrew of his name, you know.
    I think that it's made in Bratsberg.
    Do you hear the shofar, too?
    How old is this?
    My father would be '20--
    88, 100, 112 years old about.
    He got when he's a year, you know.
    They made it before.
    About 112 years.
    Can you get anything?
    Oh, yeah.
    Why did you take it home the day before?
    Because I wanted to take it with me.
    The shofar, too.
    Was that your father's?
    No, that was one of ours.
    I have another one.
    One was ours, my father's, and this was--
    I don't know from whom.
    Do you get that when I blow?
    [BLOWS SHOFAR]
    You have to put water in, you know.
    You want to hear it again?
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Not to dry out.
    That should be better.
    I bought that not to annoy house on Yontif.
    [BLOWS SHOFAR]
    We just blew on this one.
    Now, it's something--
    I put it on white, when [INAUDIBLE]..
    Is it all right like this?
    Yeah, that's fine.
    You got it?
    Tell me a little bit about Cuba, if you--
    Cuba was a nice city.
    We had a lot of poor people there.
    But we had nothing to do with them, you know.
    But the life was--
    to eat everything was cheap, you know.
    To have the oranges, to have to buy nothing,
    you got 10 pineapple for $0.10 at this time on the street.
    That was our luck.
    You live cheap, you know, chicken a pound, $0.20.
    The trip over to Cuba, were there
    are a lot of Jewish people on the boat?
    Yeah, but those things, just I didn't know.
    Some from Berlin, and some from all places.
    From all sections from the country they came,
    who couldn't go out fast enough, you know.
    That was the trouble.
    And the rent was cheap.
    We lived in a house in the first floor,
    about seven room apartment.
    Was about $30 or $32 a month.
    You were just there waiting to be allowed to go to America?
    Yeah, sure, we were waiting.
    And your family had gotten there a few weeks before you?
    Yeah.
    They were all in the same house.
    First, we were in a hotel a few days, till I got an apartment,
    you know.
    Were you there when the Saint Louis docked?
    Sure, I was there.
    I sent food up.
    There was a Nuremberger family there, two families.
    From Nuremberg.
    One was the [PERSONAL NAME],, and the other one was
    the Greisler--
    he made shirts in Nuremberg.
    How long was the Saint Louis there?
    I don't know anymore, maybe a few weeks.
    I really don't know.
    What do you remember about hearing
    that it was in the harbor, or--
    I saw it, I was there.
    And sent food up to people.
    How were you able to do that?
    Oh, I don't know, somebody-- we went in a boat there,
    and we took a boat.
    And I don't know.
    Either they came down, you know, or somebody brought it up.
    Because I really don't know anymore.
    Everything was too excited, you know.
    So you actually went out on the boat to the Saint Louis?
    It was in the harbor.
    And did a lot of people do that?
    Several, you know, who had people up there they knew.
    I knew another family, they had to go back to,
    I think to Holland, or to Belgium, they went back.
    And the other ones, Greisler came down, I remember.
    They had a visa.
    And the [PERSONAL NAME] from Nuremberg, your father
    knew him.
    I think he went with us to school.
    They came down, they had a visa.
    The other one, they had permission,
    they didn't come down.
    They didn't let them down, you know.
    You mean on to--
    To Cuba.
    Only the people with visa.
    So here, they didn't do anything.
    They didn't take them.
    They couldn't take them here?
    Put them to Florida or someplace?
    50 years, already.
    So you arrived here in 1939?
    In-- no, '40--
    I think my--
    I don't know-- whether this was in '39 or '40, my grandma.
    I don't know exactly anymore.
    And we were from village, there are about 30, 40,
    they came out to visit [INAUDIBLE]..
    Well, changed maybe a few weeks.
    [BACKGROUND NOISE]
    So I came over here, and I had to look for a job.
    And I had to go to the army, 1942.
    Did you live in Washington Heights all the time?
    I lived on Fort Washington Avenue, was it 15?
    First in Brooklyn, a month.
    And you met your wife in New York?
    I met my wife in New York, yeah.
    Have you ever gone back to Germany?
    Sure, I was there in 1960, '66, in the '70s.
    I think in the '80s once, too-- only to the cemetery to go.
    In Arnstadt.
    I have my father there, grandparents,
    and great grandparents, you know.
    My grandmother's here, and my mother.
    And were there people there that remembered you?
    Oh, sure.
    And how did they act?
    These people what I met, that they were not Nazis before,
    either.
    Well, I met one he takes care for the cemetery,
    he's from Sudetenland, you know.
    And he had to go out to Germany.
    He takes care of the cemetery.
    I don't know if he's still doing it.
    He took care.
    Our cemetery is maybe 600 or 700 years old.
    We have an older one down [GERMAN]..
    It's from 942, I guess.
    And how did the people act towards you?
    How did you feel about going home the first time,
    if you remember?
    I didn't feel-- my wife didn't feel ease, either.
    They said, why don't you come back, whatever?
    So my wife gave them right away the answer,
    how could we live under you anymore?
    You threw us out, she said.
    And they didn't say anything anymore, you know?
    How many generations of your family lived in that town?
    My great grandfather, he was born--
    he didn't live all the time-- he lived before someplace else.
    He was born 1799.
    He died 1888, he was in that place.
    The grandma, 1806 or 1808 or 1899.
    From the grandfather side, I don't know by heart.
    My grandmother was born there, 18--
    she was not born there, she lived there from 1873
    till she left, 1940.
    And were they always in the same business?
    Mostly, mostly.
    I don't know what my great grandfather did.
    I still don't know.
    Were a lot of Jews in the same kind of business?
    Yes, you know.
    Why was that?
    Well, some had cattle, then we had a butcher.
    And some had-- years ago, grocery store, you know.
    And they had gloves, you know, material, gloves and shirts,
    and things like this.
    Why did you go to work in Nuremberg after school?
    Because I wanted to learn something else, you know.
    After 1933, were there other laws that were changed
    that had a direct effect on you in your town?
    I mean, I know that you had the 1935 Nuremberg laws.
    What I'm asking is, how did they change your life in that town?
    Well, you had to be careful.
    You couldn't speak to everybody anymore.
    You had to know to whom you speak, you know.
    Was not so easy, you know.
    Wasn't so easy against the Nazis.
    And they watched-- they watched all places, you know.
    Had to be very careful.
    Careful in business?
    Or careful--
    Careful in business and what you spoke.
    You had to be very careful.
    You couldn't trust them anymore.
    You had some people that didn't come to you anymore,
    you had business 20 to 30 years with them.
    They were afraid, you know.
    And now, a woman, they told me after the war,
    she died a long time-- a farmer woman--
    she brought the Jews food.
    They put her to prison.
    I don't know how long--
    a farmer woman-- because she brought some food.
    Because she knew that people they had nothing to eat,
    or much.
    They put her to prison.
    She was from a different village, [PLACE NAME]..
    Was a farmer.
    Did anyone do anything to try and help Jews, individually?
    Or like you just told me, in your town?
    Not so easy.
    They were all afraid.
    But they watched them, you know.
    I remember, I was playing cards, Skat, you know.
    And I played with some people.
    So they came to him and said, why do you
    play cards with a Jew?
    That happened while you were playing cards?
    Sure.
    They told him.
    What could you do?
    But they didn't play anymore, you understand?
    They were afraid.
    I remember, my father was--
    after the Hitler, of 1933, '34, was a farmer,
    they had a young girl was about 10, 12 years.
    The farmer said to my father, don't
    say about anything about the Nazis when my daughter is here.
    She tells everything to teacher.
    Still remember.
    The girl could be still alive, maybe.
    She could be maybe 65 or 70.
    Of the people in your town that were
    very sympathetic to the Nazis, do you remember anything
    in particular?
    We didn't have too many, you know.
    Later on, of course, they all--
    they had to be Nazis, you know.
    But before, we had maybe--
    there was 20, maybe, you know.
    But later on, I don't know.
    And the barber didn't come any more to my uncle
    and shaved him, you know, and everything.
    They are afraid, you know.
    How was it when you met these people on the street?
    You didn't go so much on the street anymore.
    You want to have your rest.
    It was not so easy.
    Met them on the side, you know, they
    didn't want to see you anymore.
    I mean, inside, they would have done it, but they were afraid,
    you understand?
    Like I said, we could buy our food and everything, you know.
    They give it to you.
    How did how did that work?
    Well, we got it.
    They didn't say anything, you know.
    The butcher were friends.
    The baker, we knew.
    And we-- my father to school, you know, and that's--
    it wasn't so bad.
    Now, were they not supposed to sell you?
    That, I don't know.
    The official, not, you know, official not.
    But I don't know anyway.
    Do you know whether there were other Jewish people that they
    didn't sell the food to?
    I didn't hear anything.
    Nobody said anything.
    And then, more for yourself, you know.
    The first two or three years weren't so bad.
    But later on, they were afraid to go
    to the funeral for my father.
    They didn't go anymore--
    the neighbors.
    They fought in the war together, and everything,
    went to school together.
    They're afraid to go.
    You saw it in the book what you read from the rabbi,
    they Torah didn't recognize the father, anymore.
    Did you read it?
    Because they took the--
    some they tore the hairs out.
    They took them out.
    When we were in Dachau, they cut right away our hair.
    And made a picture.
    So when you came in on the train, the trucks were waiting?
    When they get off at Dachau?
    There were the trucks waiting already.
    If you were not fast enough, they hit you with the sticks
    right away.
    Go up on the truck.
    What did they do there for food?
    They gave-- I don't know what they gave us.
    Not much, but they gave us meat, but you could buy some
    if you had some money.
    But you had to give your money back
    when you came there, when you had some package or something,
    you had to give it to them.
    And the money.
    But I gave it back when I left.
    I get my suitcase back and the money back.
    I didn't keep it.
    When I add a few marks, I gave it to my uncle who was there.
    So you could-- you could take some money
    into the camp with you?
    When you had some money with you,
    you understand, you didn't know where you go, or what is--
    so you had-- they took it.
    A few mark, they left you always.
    They left you a few marks that you had on you in the camp?
    Yeah, a few marks.
    Not everything.
    And with that, you could buy--
    You could buy something extra.
    How?
    I don't know, was there some--
    was a store, or what it was.
    I don't know what it was anymore.
    Like in the army, you know.
    And when that money was gone?
    Didn't have anything anymore.
    Even though you still had money--
    They didn't give you out anything.
    Like I said, I got my money back at this time.
    I don't know how much money I had.
    But yeah, I had to buy my ticket to go home again.
    That was--
    Were a lot of people sick there when you were there?
    Plenty of old people.
    And you stay in the outside, they spray you with hot water,
    and then you stay outside in the cold, in Munich.
    This is the Alps right there.
    About how crowded was the barrack?
    I don't know how many of us in a barrack--
    like this here, one here, one here, one there--
    one up here, you know, next to each other with a little
    [INAUDIBLE].
    I think, a blanket there-- we had a blanket.
    I remember one man, a big business man from Munich,
    and his son was next to him.
    He said, cover my hip [INAUDIBLE]..
    [INAUDIBLE] when I would have done it in Munich to him,
    he wouldn't have looked at me.
    How big was Dachau?
    Do you recall?
    I can't tell you.
    Very big, very big.
    All the fences around, and up in the guards with machine guns,
    you know.
    When they released you, how did you get from the camp
    back to the train?
    I only remember, we walked out-- maybe there were buses there,
    or--
    I don't remember.
    It was over 50 years.
    We walked out, I walked with the rabbi,
    I remember, I think it was a Friday afternoon.
    And was the rabbi also released because he had papers
    that would allow him to leave?
    I'm sure of it.
    They wouldn't let him out, anyway.
    [INAUDIBLE] He was here, the rabbi, from the Munich
    congregation.
    On the 82nd street, remember?
    When you go up there, on the 82nd,
    who was this one street back on the left side?
    It was not so easy.
    Up, down.
    And I came down to Camp Robinson, it's Arkansas.
    From Arkansas, came to Oklahoma, Fort Sill.
    This is a camp that is at least from here
    to Lakewood, that big.
    And I walk at least that distance.
    And we're shooting with the cannons inside.
    The life cannons.
    But and I went to New Orleans, from New Orleans to New York.
    Fort Devens-- that is Boston.
    And air field [INAUDIBLE],, I had to go overseas, 1943.
    The troops went with him in [PLACE NAME],, to the shul,
    and I went with my-- back up in the boat, of the Mauritania.
    We were about 10,000 on the boat.
    Then, I came to Liverpool again.
    From where I started.
    And then where?
    From Liverpool, I went to near Derby,
    I forgot the name anymore.
    It was a village in the woods.
    I mean, the village was not--
    we were in the woods there, sleeping.
    I was in camp--
    I don't know it was.
    They had a hospital there.
    And after England?
    And after England, I went to raids--
    islands, you know, raids.
    From raids, we had a raid, and we came down in England
    to the south of England.
    We made it there for the invasion.
    And we went a little--
    I think a few weeks later, they went over.
    I came in July to France.
    Then we pass St. Lo, and we are almost to outer regions.
    What is the name again?
    In France?
    It's a big church there--
    Le Mans-- Le Mans.
    From Le Mans, then I went outside,
    where they have the aeroplane, the airport now.
    We stood there.
    I think a few weeks, we were there, sleeping.
    There were all the holes from old bombs.
    Then we went to Paris.
    And I was to Paris till the war was over.
    And I came to Reims--
    this is near Germany already.
    And from there, we went down to Marseille.
    And I went home with a small boat,
    Alexander Lily was the name.
    Before you went into the army, in the early '40s
    here in New York, what did the Jewish people
    think was going on to the other Jews in Germany,
    and in other occupied countries?
    They didn't think so much.
    They didn't-- mostly, they didn't help.
    They didn't help much.
    I knew plenty who didn't help here--
    rich people.
    Did people know what was going on?
    I am sure.
    They didn't know-- they didn't want to know something.
    They only were afraid to support them.
    They thought they had nothing to do--
    they have no work, they were afraid to support them.
    Let them [INAUDIBLE].
    And I knew people that were from Nuremberg.
    I don't know the name.
    They wanted the brother to come here,
    or the daughter, the sister to come here, with a man,
    I don't know her name-- a little kid, a boy or a girl.
    So some relative of mine asked here the brother,
    why don't you bring your sister over?
    They wrote, no, you don't give any answer.
    So he said, my wife doesn't give the permission.
    She was an American woman.
    She didn't give the permission.
    And they died over there.
    That is one case, I know.
    We had plenty of them over.
    And I was in England, and Wales, and in France, we
    had about 60,000 patients.
    I saw General Eisenhower, General Walter Smith--
    one of the chief of staff of Eisenhower.
    General Patton, Mickey Rooney, he came here--
    I think he had trouble with his feet.
    He was about 22, 23, or 21, I don't know.
    He's, I guess now, 68 or 69.
    Well, you can say the war is 43 years, no?
    70?
    That would be--
    30?
    22, 24 years [INAUDIBLE].
    He was entertainment, you know.
    Did your mother still work in the business?
    At home?
    My mother?
    No, she never worked.
    So from '36 on, you took care of the business.
    Before, already.
    My father got operated 1930, and he
    died '36, he had cancer on the colon, as you say here, maybe.
    It was open here, they cut a piece out.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    At this time, they said--
    and they operate and it's good for five years.
    Was everybody in the Jewish community in your town
    waiting to get out?
    Most of them.
    Some went out before me.
    Here, one friend is here, since 19--
    over here is a woman, she's 87 now.
    She came over here, '28.
    He came out '36--
    an '28 too the other guy over here.
    Grandfather's mother, they came over here 1890 maybe.
    I don't know exactly.
    Not before [INAUDIBLE].
    How difficult was it to get permission
    to go to Cuba, instead of the US, let's say?
    Well, they arranged it in Holland--
    they arranged it, that we got the tickets to Cuba.
    They gave me only permission, I think, for four months,
    like this.
    Or two months-- test basis, I guess.
    Two months.
    But when you were there, you could stay, you understand?
    You had to put some money down, that you don't--
    so they don't have to support you, you understand?
    When you left Cuba, they gave you the money back.
    I think it was $500 per person, like this.
    What was the wait, in terms of, if you made up your mind
    in '34, I want to go to Cuba now, I want to get out--
    At this time, we didn't--
    the father was sick, we didn't think to go out right away,
    you know.
    Because he was so sick.
    We knew what was coming, you understand?
    How can a sick man who has operation go out?
    We cannot leave him alone.
    No, what I'm getting at is, let's say, with another family,
    if they decided they wanted to leave,
    and they couldn't get permission to go to America quickly
    enough, let's say, in '35 or '36, when it was later--
    how difficult was it to get permission to go to Cuba?
    How long did it take?
    You had to have a lawyer, or somebody, you understand,
    who took care of you.
    And the other way, you couldn't go.
    There was a Spanish, [INAUDIBLE] as Cuba, you understand.
    That other people there, [INAUDIBLE]..
    Was it difficult to get permission
    from the German government, or was it
    difficult to get permission from--
    The Cuba had to give the permission.
    The German had to let you out, you know.
    It was not difficult to get out of Germany?
    It was not so difficult, no.
    My wife came, and I went out '34.
    And she had friends in California,
    they went out several months before, you know.
    Some '26, '28.
    So the difficulty was finding a place that would accept you.
    For sure.
    My wife's uncle came over here in 1912.
    Now, once you are in Cuba, let's say,
    then you just were able to stay there
    until the time came that you had the documents you
    needed to go to America?
    I informed you when you should come,
    and they gather your papers.
    It took time, of course.
    How long did you have to wait to get permission to go to Cuba?
    That wasn't too long, maybe a few months.
    My uncle left before we been to Amsterdam, and they took care,
    you know.
    Said the papers and everything for the whole family, you know.
    So then, I came to Dachau, I couldn't go with them,
    you know.
    It would have been two to four weeks before.
    So if you wanted to go to Cuba, or if a family or an individual
    wanted to go to Cuba in '35, or in '36--
    It was easy as '38, you know?
    When it came the Holocaust, and too many.
    It was not so easy anymore.
    But you only want to see that you saved your life.
    Canada didn't take many.
    All these countries--
    I had an uncle, he was in Santo Domingo.
    So he was in Buchenwald.
    He was in Neustadt, in the Sachsen.
    Not too far from [PLACE NAME].
    He was there visiting his daughter,
    and they took him along to Buchenwald.
    Do you know [INAUDIBLE]?
    What?
    I don't know.
    I was once in Bad-Neuhaus, that is not so far away.
    I remember.
    You had to go down by the Karl Platz,
    they were all Jewish people.
    It was once in Neustadt, in Neustadt I was with my wife.
    Her father is buried there.
    He died in the war.
    It wasn't so easy.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Leo Wasserman

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    1 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

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    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Wasserman, Leo.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The interview with Leo Wasserman was conducted by the Queensborough Community College Holocaust Resource Center and Archives. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received a copy of the interview in November 1990 and an interviewee release form on April 2, 1991.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:08:58
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    Oral history interview with Herman Haller

    Oral History

    Herman Haller describes growing up in Berlin, Germany; his Polish parents and their furniture store; his two brothers and three sisters; living a comfortable middle-class life until 1933; anti-Jewish boycotts; his parents divorcing and his father moving to Palestine; not being allowed to attend public school and going to a Jewish school; Kristallnacht in 1938 and the destruction of the synagogue; going with his brothers to Antwerp, Belgium in December 1938 then Paris, France in January 1939 and returning to Antwerp; being helped by a Jewish organization and staying with Jewish families; the Nazi invasion of Belgium; his aunt and mother going to London, England; the deportations from Belgium; ration cards and finding a job in a bakery; being taken on a passenger train to Somme, France; being forced to help build a wall along the coast; contracting typhoid; being marched to the train station and sent to Brussels, Belgium then Malines; the journey to Auschwitz and arriving in the camp; the Kapos; taking classes on bricklaying and building a factory; working in the factory, making tools; passing messages between men and women in the camp; befriending Claire Haymond, with whom he is still friends; an underground plan to blow up the crematoria; the punishment of those who participated in the sabotage; being evacuated on January 18, 1945 and sent on a death march to Reichenau (possibly Rychnov nad Kněžnou, Czech Republic); being loaded onto cattle cars and sent to Gross-Rosen; conditions in Gross-Rosen, digging trenches for the dead; being marched to Hirschberg (Jelenia Góra, Poland), where they stay in the camp for a few days; being taken by train to Buchenwald in March 1945; receiving help from the political prisoners; being liberated on April 11, 1945; the Americans evacuating the sick people to Weimar, Germany, where they were put in a school that had been converted into a hospital; being sent to Belgium in May 1945; finding his brother and mother; and going to the United States in 1947 while his brother went to Palestine and his mother remained in London.

    Oral history interview with Alfred Lipson

    Oral history interview with Alfred Lipson

    Oral History

    Alfred Lipson describes growing up in Radom, Poland; graduating in 1939; experiencing antisemitism; the beginning of the war; fleeing to the Vistula River then his grandparents’ town near Warsaw, Poland; going to a camp and being separated from his father; Yom Kippur in 1939; being allowed to leave the camp and reuniting with his father in Radom; being ordered into a ghetto in 1941; being deported in August 1942 and working in a munitions factory outside Radom; working as a bookkeeper; he and his family hiding during the 1942 deportations; being physically attacked by his boss; going back to work at the munitions factory; teaching his two sisters Latin and algebra and inviting others to the illegal classes; his job working as a treasurer and working with William Bloom, who was tried and hanged after the war; working as a bookkeeper for an SS officer, who saved his family from being deported; getting married in 1943; his wife becoming a secretary in his office; being sent to another camp in January 1944; being marched down the main street of Radom; and never seeing Radom again.

    Oral history interview with Lee Potasinski

    Oral history interview with Lee Potasinski

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Dolf Ringel and Dottie Ringel

    Oral history interview with Dolf Ringel and Dottie Ringel

    Oral History

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