Oral history interview with Lilly Lynder-Luftman
Transcript
- Lilly Lynder-Luftman, a Holocaust survivor from Hungary.
- We are doing an interview on Christians
- who saved Jews during the war by risking their lives.
- I know that you have a lot to say,
- but this time, I would like you to focus more on the people who
- saved your life.
- I would like you to begin probably
- with where have you been born and which
- year, who were in the family, where you lived, et cetera.
- I was born in Budapest in 1918.
- I was married when I was 23 years old.
- That was in 1941.
- At that time, my husband, who passed away since,
- was in a labor camp.
- And he came home just to get married.
- And--
- In which year was this?
- 1941.
- '41.
- So in 1939, when the war started all over--
- Well, the war--
- --you haven't been married yet.
- My husband-- no, I was not married.
- But he was in the labor camp from, I think, 1940, if I'm not
- mistaken, '39 or '40.
- And he remained in a labor camp and later on
- in concentration camp.
- But I was not away from home.
- I lived with my parents --19 until 1944.
- It's well known that after the Germans occupied the country,
- they made the Jews live in special assigned apartment
- houses in a big city with a yellow star outside the house.
- And we also had to wear the yellow star on our clothes.
- And we were allowed to go on a street
- just in certain hours of the day.
- It was restricted, our movement, our freedom.
- Who were in the family?
- In the family at that time was my mother,
- my grandmother, my father.
- And my two brothers were already in a labor camp at that time.
- In 19-- we were living there until 1944.
- Who was the oldest in the family?
- My brother.
- And then?
- Who was also in labor camp.
- Your were the middle child?
- Yes, I am the middle.
- I'm the only daughter, and I'm the middle.
- And we were living home until 1944,
- when the Szálasi S-Z-Á-L-A-S-I uprising came.
- He was working with the Germans.
- And at that time, they took my father from the street.
- We never saw him again.
- He was taken to Auschwitz.
- The reason I know that he was in Auschwitz,
- because I had two cousins.
- My father's younger brother's two sons
- met him in Auschwitz, who fortunately came home.
- My father never did.
- He was cremated.
- And in 1944, I believe it was also,
- that right after this German Szálasi uprising,
- they started to take the Jews away from the city.
- But it was a real disorganized situation
- for a week or two until things were stabilized.
- And between those week or two--
- but I have to go back a little bit further
- about my husband and my youngest brother.
- They were in a special unit that my brother-in-law,
- whose name is--
- was Laszo, L-A-S-Z-O. His first name and the last name was
- Balazs, B for boy--
- A-L-A-Z-S.
- He was a electric engineer.
- And he was building the airport around the city.
- He was building the electric supply for the Germans
- at the airport.
- And I will get into later on how he organized a special unit
- for all the Jewish boys who were in labor camp.
- He requested several people, Jewish people from labor camp,
- just in order to save them.
- I will come to that point, but I just
- want much to tell about myself.
- After my father was taken away--
- What was your father's profession?
- My father had a ready-made men's clothing store.
- Education?
- And education, he was a self-made man.
- He belonged to the board of the socialized medicine.
- He was the head of his union.
- He spoke several languages.
- And he was a very well-known figure in the town.
- Anyway, after he was taken away, it
- was just my mother and one grandmother passed away
- natural cause.
- And my father's mother moved in also with us.
- And my husband's family side, our whole family
- moved in because in one apartment with a yellow star
- outside, every apartment had two or three families live together.
- No one family was able to live alone.
- So we were quite a few people in that house.
- And then what else would you like to know about myself?
- Yeah, about you, what did you do at this time?
- Well, I was secretary to the owner of a big department
- store until 1938, I think, or '39,
- when this Jewish law came in that each company was allowed
- just to have so many Jews.
- And after I don't when I was let go,
- I was working in my brother-in-law's office, Laszo
- Balazs that I mentioned before.
- And I was there till the last minute.
- Even when the Germans came in, they did not
- know of our relationship.
- And they did not know of me being Jew.
- So I was working in his office until towards to the very end.
- The neighborhood where you lived,
- there were many Jewish people living there?
- It was a mixed neighborhood.
- A lot of Jewish people, yes.
- Did you have much contact with the Gentile people?
- Definitely.
- We had very good friends.
- And then one morning, I woke up.
- And I realized that I'm not a Hungarian.
- And I realized I'm not their neighbors and not their friends.
- It's unreal how overnight things can change.
- The city where you lived, it was Budapest, you say?
- And did you live in the city or you--
- We lived in the city, in a big apartment house,
- about five-floor apartment house,
- just like in New York, one of those apartment houses.
- And I was schooling.
- What kind of school did you go to?
- I finished high school.
- And then I went to a business college.
- You were religious at home?
- I personally was not that Orthodox.
- However, my house was.
- On a Saturday, we never cooked.
- We never cleaned.
- And all holidays were observed in the house.
- My grandmother, one of my grandmother, was living with us.
- And I imagine she was influenced--
- she influenced my mother.
- And so we had an Orthodox home, yes.
- What kind of antisemitic experiences you had during--
- I mean, when the war started, during the war,
- as you were growing up?
- Well, if I want to be honest, I have
- to tell you that I did not experience
- any antisemitism at all.
- As a matter of fact, I had Gentile friends
- on Christmas Eve.
- I used to spend time with them.
- And on Passover, they used to come over to our house.
- I did not realize the difference between a Gentile and me, even
- in school.
- Was very harmonic life until Hitler came into the country.
- And as I said, unbelievable how people changed
- and my best friends and my next-door neighbors
- just didn't want to do anything with us.
- Have you been involved or some members of your family
- in some kind of politics?
- My father belonged to the Democratic Club in Hungary.
- And it's called a Social Democrat.
- Was not Communist.
- They did not even have a Communist Party, I believe.
- But even if they did, it's a Social Democrat party,
- and my father did belonged to that.
- And he also worked in the party.
- When the bad time came, what was the first restriction
- which had a strong impact on your daily life?
- Well, number one is that they packed us
- in in one apartment, three families.
- And was very difficult. Although we
- had our inside bathroom and whatnot,
- it still was three different families living together.
- But mainly, we were not able to move about.
- It was just restricted a few hours a day.
- And also, we had to wear a yellow star, which really
- gave us such a persecution complex that we are pointed out,
- that we are the outcast of the world.
- Mm-hmm.
- That was the first.
- That was the first.
- And from there on, it was just the thought of saving our lives.
- Did you speak the language well of your country?
- It was my mother tongue.
- I was born and raised and educated in Hungary, Budapest.
- What other languages did you speak?
- I spoke German that I learned in school, in high school.
- I spoke English almost fluently, maybe not with a big vocabulary.
- My father was, as I mentioned before, a self-made man.
- And he saw to it that his children
- had their broad education.
- And he took us.
- And we learned English in a class.
- I also picked up some of the Jewish language
- when my two grandmothers used to talk to each other.
- I did not speak it, but I understood quite a bit.
- You told me that you had a--
- even before the war, you had a good relationship with Gentiles.
- What kind of relationship?
- It was a social, business relationship?
- Well, it was social.
- I did not have any business relationship because I--
- however, I did work as a secretary.
- But all my relationship with the Gentiles in Budapest was social.
- Which is also was a volunteer relationship of my side.
- And this is why I was so--
- not only me, but everybody was so surprised
- how the mentality and the outlook of people
- can change overnight when the troubles started.
- Now, when your father was taken away, what happened after?
- All life was going on?
- When my father was taken away, he
- was supposed to go in to the labor camp the following day.
- And everybody had to have some pictures with him.
- And my father went out to pick up the pictures that
- was taken the day before.
- It was ready for him to be picked up.
- And he went down to pick up the pictures,
- and that's when they took him from the street.
- And at this time, there was still
- everyone was in the family at home?
- Now, at this time, my husband's family that moved in,
- they moved in with one of their sisters.
- This was already where the situation were already
- a little bit chaotic.
- And my mother was home.
- And my grandmother and my husband's
- aunt and the daughter with a little girl and myself.
- And your two brothers were--
- No, my two brothers were in labor camp.
- What was the name of your two brothers?
- The older one was Ali, A-L-I. And the youngest one was Alex.
- And the older was--
- Ali was-- at first, he was with the army
- as serving his regular time.
- But when the Jewish law came into the picture, then
- they strip him from his uniform.
- And he was given just regular civilian clothes
- and was put into the labor camp with the other Jews.
- The whole life of--
- My sister-in-law, my husband's sister,
- who was married to a Gentile, Laszo Balazs,
- she tried to locate my father to see where they took him
- from a street.
- And she came to the house, and she
- said that she is going to try to find out
- because her husband had influence
- with the German government.
- And she did go.
- And she did find out that where he was.
- But, of course, nobody could go in there
- anymore in that it was like a congregation place
- where they congregated all the Jews that they picked up
- different places.
- And the same day, afternoon, she went there again,
- and she was able to talk to somebody there.
- But the whole group was already taken away.
- They shipped them somewhere further.
- The destination was Auschwitz.
- Did you live in the same apartment?
- We stayed in the same apartment till December 1944.
- And I was working until the last minute
- in my brother-in-law's office.
- I shouldn't say last minute, because until I
- had to wear the yellow star, I was working in his office.
- Did you work with a yellow star or--
- No, until I had to wear the star, because there was only
- certain hours we were allowed to be on the street.
- And I would not jeopardize my life of not wearing.
- That was December '44.
- Yes.
- And the Jews were taken away already
- from other parts of the country.
- Yeah.
- What was the situation?
- Did you know where these people were going and what--
- Well, we heard.
- We heard that they were taken to Auschwitz.
- And working in my brother-in-law's office,
- I was informed maybe a lot more than other people were.
- How?
- Well, because they were free to go everywhere.
- And they read the papers.
- And he also worked for the German government.
- Not for the government.
- He worked for the Hungarian government,
- but with the Germans.
- So I was well aware of what was going on.
- Of course, we always said that in Budapest, they can't do this.
- We always thought that the last minute will never come.
- And I would like to talk about this man, my sister-in-law
- and her husband, who jeopardized their life,
- many times were taken to the police department
- for different reasons.
- People saw them doing this, people saw them doing that.
- And I would like to talk about that.
- Were they arrested?
- They were arrested.
- Yes, they were arrested.
- The first incident was when the Germans actually
- marched into the town.
- We looked out the window, and we saw how
- they took the people, the Jews.
- And like a shepherd takes the sheep,
- that's how they took the Jews walking on the street.
- But at the day before--
- well, how should I--
- I'll go back a little bit.
- About a year before that, my brother-in-law
- was working in the airport, was doing the electric work
- on the airport.
- And he went to the--
- Your brother-in-law is Balazs?
- Yes.
- Balazs.
- Would you talk about him by his name?
- He went to his superior in a German headquarter.
- And he said, you know what?
- I could get a lot of Jews working for nothing.
- I only go to different labor camps,
- and I get as many as we want.
- And they will work for us for nothing.
- So I think it's a good thing.
- Just give me a letter, and I will take care of it.
- But of course, he had in mind to save as many Jews as he could.
- And this is how it happened.
- My younger brother and my husband,
- they were in different places of the country in labor camp,
- but he managed to get them out with other Jews, too.
- He had about 35 people picked from different labor camp.
- And he got an apartment for them in Budapest to live.
- And they worked on the airport for him.
- Who were these people?
- Friends?
- They were--
- Strangers?
- Strangers, all strangers.
- Wherever he knew that was a labor
- camp around the country, not too far to travel,
- he went, and he inquired about who worked ever
- in an electric work or whatever, or if he saw somebody
- there and said, are you a family man, or you have children?
- Then he didn't even ask if they worked as electrician.
- So just in order to get them out.
- He wanted to save Jews.
- Right.
- So he took my younger brother and my husband
- from the labor camp.
- And they were working on the airport.
- And they had this little apartment
- with all these people were living together.
- The day before the Germans marched in-- maybe
- I'm not consistent, but it was so long ago that I have
- to get my thoughts together.
- The day before, my brother and my husband and one friend
- that they felt very close since they lived there together,
- came home because they saw what was happening already
- at that part of the city, that they were no longer able to--
- Which part was it?
- This was the outskirts of the--
- yes, outskirts.
- And we were in the center.
- So they came home, and they didn't know what to do,
- but they knew that they cannot stay there anymore.
- And they came home, and they slept all the night,
- but only one night in our house.
- And then when we looked out the window
- and we saw how they took the Jews from every house,
- they went into houses and brought them out
- with pointing the weapon on them.
- At first, we thought that we were
- going to put some furnitures on the front of the door
- that they couldn't get in.
- We were so naive, but you panicked.
- You didn't know what to do.
- But then we thought we're going to go.
- My brother-in-law had a little warehouse
- in the next house where his office was.
- And we thought we're going to go there and hide.
- So my mother, my brother, my husband and myself,
- and one buddy of theirs, we left the house.
- We didn't put on-- we took off the yellow star.
- We went out of the house.
- And like we didn't know anything about it,
- we went to the opposite direction
- where the group was coming, the Germans with the Jews.
- And it was about five, six blocks away.
- And we got to the place.
- And the place was locked.
- This warehouse, the warehouse was locked.
- But we forced in the door, and we went in there.
- And it was a telephone there.
- And we called him.
- And we told him that we are there.
- So this warehouse wasn't prepared for you?
- It was a warehouse.
- It wasn't--
- Just you picked--
- It was a cellar.
- Picked it out as a hiding place.
- Yes, it's a cellar.
- We didn't know where to go, and we figured--
- so my brother-in-law said, don't go anywhere.
- You stay there until we see what's going to happen.
- And that night, he came with dinner for everybody.
- And we stayed there.
- How many people there?
- My mother, my brother, my husband, their friend,
- and me-- five.
- OK.
- We were there for about three days.
- And during the three days, my brother-in-law, Laszo Balazs,
- supplied us with all the food.
- Unfortunately, the neighbor saw him coming in to the warehouse
- a few times with packages.
- And the last day when he was there,
- they saw that he must hide somebody in there.
- And he and his wife were taken to the police station.
- We knew something was wrong because the last day he
- didn't show up.
- What happened was that the neighbors must have
- called the police department.
- And a few hours later, five Nazi Hungarians with weapons
- opened the door and found us there.
- Everyone had a rifle for one person.
- They were five people for five of us.
- We thought we're going to be shot right there.
- But what happened, they chased us out on the street.
- And they said they're going to take us where
- we're not going to return from.
- And somehow, I believe in a good Lord that he gives and he takes,
- but he gives the same time.
- As we were marching less than a block with those Nazis behind us
- with the weapon pointing at our head, a siren came up.
- And they were really brave when it
- came to pointing guns to people, but when it came to a siren,
- they were so coward.
- They were five, and they ran about 10 different directions,
- and they left us on the street.
- Really?
- Like a miracle.
- It was a miracle.
- We walked a few blocks.
- And two other men with weapons found us on a street.
- And they said, people who are on a street like this,
- they must be Jews.
- They took us to an army center, which
- was filled with Jews when we got there,
- hundreds and hundreds of Jews.
- I believe they were so panicked, they were so disorganized.
- They didn't know at first what to do with them.
- Some of them, the old ones and the young ones
- they took to the ghetto.
- They made a ghetto.
- Later on, I found out that that's
- where my grandmother was taken.
- And my other aunt in a house living in the same apartment
- house who was sick at that time, he had phlebitis.
- She had phlebitis, and she was bedridden.
- So they took some in the ghetto.
- But the people who were able to work,
- I imagine they didn't know what to do with them.
- And they took them some--
- and they congregate in some of the Jewish temples
- and some in army centers.
- We were taken to the army centers.
- And we were asked questions, where we are from and whatnot.
- And they told us to put our both hands up.
- And we were standing there.
- They were the Nyilas or?
- The Nyilas, yes.
- Or the Germans?
- No, they were Nyilas.
- These were all Hungarians.
- One was about a 15-year-old kid.
- And next to him was somebody who was about 70.
- The 15-year-old kid took his weapon and hit
- my mother's chest--
- --so bad that she was spitting blood.
- So my brother automatically took his two hands down.
- And this old man took his rifle and shot a bullet
- through that went through his hat, not his head.
- And then they separated the men from the women from there on.
- I didn't know where my husband or my brother was for weeks.
- And the women, we were taken around the town.
- They took us to a big airport.
- As I said, I don't believe they knew
- what they were going to do with all this mass of people.
- And we went to this airport, and the airport
- was surrounded with automatic--
- how do you call this?
- Weapons that--
- Machine guns?
- Machine guns.
- Yes, machine guns.
- And while we were taken there on a street,
- walking thousands and thousands of Jews like a pilgrimage,
- the Hungarians didn't waste time.
- They stopped the streetcar on which
- they were riding just to come down and spit on us and kick us.
- Then they went back to the streetcars
- to continue their journey.
- Was pouring rain.
- And one old lady could hardly walk.
- And I wanted to help her.
- But one of the Nyilas came and hit me.
- So I couldn't help the lady.
- So I was just walking with my mother.
- And we got to this airport after a day and a night walking.
- No food.
- It was raining a little bit.
- We caught the raindrops to drink a little water.
- We were there at the airport about two days, I believe.
- And then the evening of the second day,
- there was a loudspeaker.
- They lit up at the airport, and a loudspeaker was speaking
- and said something like this.
- Horthy and Szálasi made an agreement.
- Horthy was the head of the country.
- Szálasi was the new head of the country, the head
- of the Hungarian Nyilas Party.
- They made arrangement that all the Jews could go home.
- We won't take them anywhere.
- In between, I'm sure that everybody knows what took place.
- Horthy was also caught by them and took away.
- So we went home.
- Yes, we did all go home.
- Did you find everything in order in your apartment?
- In the apartment, we found everything in order.
- Nobody was there yet.
- We went into the house, but the doors of the big apartment house
- were locked.
- And nobody could go in or out.
- And there were big bulletin.
- If any man in any house is--
- if there is any man, any male in any house,
- the next morning they have to be downstairs because they're
- going to go to a labor camp.
- In my apartment was no man anymore.
- And I don't believe there was any man in the whole house
- because all the men were taken before.
- And the day after was a big bulletin
- that all women between, I don't know, 15, I think,
- and 50, have to be down, congregate the next morning.
- That would have made me eligible to go there and leave my mother
- home.
- But I had no--
- and my grandmother.
- But I had no choice.
- I was ready to go.
- However, that day my sister-in-law came in.
- Balazs?
- Balazs's wife had a bodyguard with her.
- How she--
- She managed to get a Nyilas bodyguard.
- That was the arrangement of Balazs.
- That was the arrangement of Balazs.
- And she came in.
- She rang the bell on the door, and the superintendent
- let them in.
- And he says, I want to go to see this family because I
- want to take personal attention to somebody in that family.
- The Nyilas said to the super.
- So she came in, and she took me with the Nyilas.
- Only you.
- I left the house, just me.
- And she took me, of course, to her apartment, which
- was the other side of the city.
- And I was in their apartment, in their bed, for two days.
- I'm sorry for the little interruption.
- Anyway, I was in their house, and since they
- lived as Gentiles--
- he was a Gentile, but she was not.
- But she lived also as a Gentile.
- This is--
- My sister-in-law, yeah.
- The people, they had a normal life.
- People came in and out, especially
- he entertained some of the German officers.
- He was able to save his wife because at that time,
- at that time, even when someone-- when
- it was a mixed marriage, it was quite hard to save the spouse.
- It so happened that they moved to a beautiful apartment house
- not long before all these things happened,
- and they did not know in the house
- that she was Jewish, which was very fortunate.
- You told me before that when you did not hear for--
- I mean, we went a little bit far back.
- You did not hear from Balazs for two days.
- What happened?
- I did not hear until my sister-in-law came to our house
- to pick me up.
- I didn't hear from them.
- Well, he cleared himself, and they let him go.
- In the police station?
- Yeah, and the Germans helped him.
- He denied the fact that he was hiding there some.
- He said I-- he pointed to the door.
- He says, you see they could see that it was broken, the door.
- I didn't help them, and I didn't bring anything to them
- because I just went to my warehouse as a business.
- Anyway, he was cleared.
- And I didn't hear from them until--
- but this took place for days, not a long period of time.
- That was his first arrest?
- That was his first arrest, yes.
- So she took me to her apartment.
- And I had to be in a bed during the day, not even in a bedroom,
- because she had some help.
- And I was in a bed completely only at night
- when everybody closed the door.
- And that's when I came out.
- And I was there not longer than about two days.
- And they got a hold of an apartment in the other side
- on the Buda.
- Budapest is two different city divided by the Danube,
- as you know.
- And on the Buda is the old town, and Pest is the big one.
- That's where they lived.
- That's where we lived.
- So they got an apartment in Buda on the third floor
- in an apartment house.
- And Balazs met, had a friend, a Catholic priest.
- And he came from Czechoslovakia, but he was running away
- from the Russians.
- That's why he came to Hungary.
- And Balazs met him somewhere and got his mother's
- and his sister's papers.
- So he--
- Because his sister and mother came away,
- also ran away from the Russians.
- And he rented this apartment for the priest's mother and sister
- as a persecuted from the Russians.
- They came with the German help somehow.
- And--
- But the Russians were not--
- they were not in Czechoslovakia yet.
- Well, they were very close.
- And they didn't want to be caught by the Russians.
- So they escaped.
- A lot of Czech people came to Budapest at that time.
- So they got this apartment.
- And I was there.
- And the next day, three more families came.
- Magda's family, cousin and a son,
- was a young 12-years-old son, and also the daughter-in-law
- with two little children.
- They all maneuvered Balazs and Magda to get them out
- from wherever they were before they were able to take them.
- And they were all in this apartment.
- And two days later, Magda went back to my old apartment
- and brought my mother also.
- So they really worked as a team.
- Balazs and his wife.
- --Magda together.
- Together.
- Magda was living also on Aryan paper.
- Magda was living as Mrs. Balazs.
- As Mrs. Balazs
- Yeah.
- She was Mrs. Balazs.
- She was Mrs. Balazs.
- They didn't know that she was Jewish.
- They were not aware of it, that she was a Jewish woman?
- Who?
- Magda.
- Who wasn't aware?
- The Germans.
- No, of course not.
- Of course not.
- He would have never worked for them.
- And that was the fortunate for some of those 75 Jews
- that they helped to escape the Holocaust.
- I mean, not Holocaust.
- The death.
- So we were living in this apartment there.
- And the refrigerator and everything was filled with food.
- And Magda used to come twice a week to bring some food.
- And it was bombing the city already,
- and she really took her life in her hands.
- But in between, I know several families
- that I know personally that they have to escape.
- And they had so many apartments rented,
- so many places of the town, it's unbelievable.
- And they gathered all these Jews there.
- I knew quite a few.
- And some I didn't even know was their friends.
- I was in this apartment until the whole house
- was bombed down to the ground.
- And every time that a siren came,
- we went down to the basement.
- That was a shelter.
- In the last week or two, last two weeks, I believe,
- we lived in a basement before the city was completely
- bombed out.
- And at that time, already the Germans
- were coming back from the war that they had with Russia,
- and they were moving back towards to Germany.
- And they came through Hungary, through Budapest.
- But during this time when all these things were happening,
- you met many times the Germans?
- You bumped into the Germans?
- Once, I bombed into the Germans on the street.
- But I did not wear a yellow star because I
- had my Christian paper.
- And in Buda, nobody knew me.
- But once Magda told me that when we were taken to this army
- place, after they found us in the cellar, five of us,
- and the men and the women were separated,
- I did not know what happened to my husband or to my brother.
- I told you before.
- So Magda told me that they chased them down, chased down
- my husband and my brother.
- And they also had contact with them.
- And she told me one day, tomorrow,
- if you want to see your husband and brother,
- I tell you where to go.
- It was an underground movement with some of the Jews
- were dressed in Nyilas uniform.
- And she said to me, you go to such and such place.
- And don't be alarmed.
- You think that you walk into a German headquarter,
- but they are all Jews.
- And I went.
- I went along.
- I put the glasses on, and I put a kerchief on just
- to try to disguise in case somebody meets me.
- And I saw Germans on the street because it was
- a big walk from Buda to Pest.
- I had to go through a bridge, a long bridge.
- And it was bombing all over, but I didn't care.
- I wanted to see them.
- So finally, I got to this place, and I go in.
- And sure enough with a real strong Hungarian name,
- there was a guy at the door in a Nyilas uniform.
- He says, who you want?
- And I said that I am Jewish, and my brother and husband is here,
- and I would like to see them.
- So they took me in a room.
- They had a big conference table.
- And they were sitting all Jewish guys with all Nyilas uniform.
- They were talking Yiddish, some of them among themselves.
- So they worked--
- They were underground.
- Underground.
- And that's where I saw my brother and my husband.
- They were working with them.
- They were doing some false papers.
- They had a little printing shop.
- And my husband and my brother was working for them there.
- They made some false passports and false papers
- to help as much as they could.
- So I saw them, but I had to leave.
- The woman couldn't be there.
- So I went back to Buda.
- And--
- To the apartment where your mother--
- Well, it was no apartment.
- It was in a basement already at that time.
- Where your mother lived also.
- Yes.
- Who else lived with her?
- Well, nobody.
- They were all the residents of the apartment house
- because it was bombed down.
- So all the residents, they were all Gentiles.
- They all lived in a basement because there
- were no apartments.
- They were all bombed.
- Oh, I see.
- So we lived with them.
- They thought that I am the priest's sister
- and my mom was the mother.
- And we were there until--
- Until the liberation.
- Well, I don't know if it's interesting to know.
- Everybody had their story, how they lived there
- the last few weeks.
- We had no water.
- We had hardly anything to eat.
- At night, when the bombing was a little bit ceased,
- we went upstairs in the dark and in the city, on the streets,
- rather nearby.
- And it was dark.
- And then you fell.
- Almost fell every other feet.
- You bend down, it was either a horse's leg or a man's arm.
- It was when the Germans moved back.
- Did you have any connection at that time with Balazs?
- No, no connection whatsoever.
- Because all the bridges, everything were bombed.
- They couldn't come to us anymore.
- What happened with the rest of the family who
- stayed in the apartment?
- Like your grandmother there?
- My grandmother and my aunt, they were all taken to the ghetto.
- They had no time anymore to take them to the concentration camp.
- And at that time already, mostly either very old or very young
- children were left.
- So they were all taken to the ghetto, which I did not
- know what's going to happen, but they couldn't take everybody.
- They did their best, but they couldn't take my mother.
- They thought maybe an old lady would
- be a burden of not surviving, two of us, my mother and me.
- So they had no choice.
- But it did help them.
- Yes, yes.
- They did help them get to the ghetto.
- They took my Aunt Elsa.
- My cousin, even today, said if it's not murder,
- his mother would never have survived.
- But she was bedridden.
- She has [? old bones. ?]
- She took an ambulance and took him-- took her to the ghetto.
- Otherwise, people who were an invalid or unable
- to move and not ambulatory, they shot them on the premises.
- They had no hearts.
- So anyway, they went to the ghetto.
- And when we got liberated, we got outside on the street
- and started to shovel the ruins.
- I did with the other residents of the house
- so you could get out of the house.
- And some went to the next house.
- Some had the apartment on the lower
- levels still livable enough.
- So I really don't know what happened to them.
- But the second day, my brother and my husband came.
- I'll never forget that.
- I was shoveling the rubble, whatever
- the bombing did to the house.
- And as I was doing that--
- How far was--
- I saw my brother and my husband.
- And I didn't want to believe.
- Of course, Balazs and Magda got in touch with them
- right after the liberation, but they couldn't come over.
- But they told them where we are.
- And the army-- the German Army built some temporary bridges.
- So when they were moving back, they
- could use those temporary bridges to move back
- from Buda to Pest and from Pest to Vienna to Germany and so on.
- So those little temporary bridges--
- not bridges, just one out of seven
- that connected Buda and Pest.
- This temporary bridge was there.
- And when the Russians came in and liberated the town,
- they also used this for their purposes.
- So my brother and my husband, it took them three days
- to get to Buda from Pest because they were working.
- The Russians only let them go through
- if they helped getting the water out
- of this little temporary bridge which consisted
- of little tugboats and whatnot.
- And under normal circumstances, it would take maybe an hour--
- Half an hour.
- Half an hour.
- Took them three days.
- Anyway, they came.
- And they came with a little-- they
- got somewhere a little hand-carriage, like a push cart,
- something like a push cart.
- And we had some beddings and whatever,
- what my sister and my brother-in-law put in that
- apartment when we--
- when we had first occupied it.
- We took that down to the basement.
- And we went home.
- It took us a week to get home because the Russians--
- what about the situation in Budapest?
- I mean, it was chaos and--
- It was a chaos.
- It was a chaos.
- But it took us a week to get home because every time we--
- the Russians said [SPEAKING RUSSIAN] come here,
- and [SPEAKING RUSSIAN] work a little bit to get the water out
- of those tugboats.
- Then when you get the water out, you could go.
- And we did.
- And then we walked a little bit.
- And then another Russian took us to another tugboat.
- It took us a week to get home.
- I don't even remember what we ate.
- I don't even remember if we had any food left or whatever,
- or the Russians-- the Russians-- yeah,
- the Russians gave us a little food at two places, I think.
- We got home.
- In the apartment where we used to live,
- there were Hungarians living there.
- And my brother and my husband threw them out.
- The apartment was completely empty.
- No beddings, no dishes, no curtains, no rugs.
- Nothing.
- My mother was at that time, I think, about 98 pounds.
- I didn't have a pillow to put under her head
- until Magda and Laszo came.
- Laszlo--
- Balazs.
- Well, Later on, I learned that they
- were in a police department about eight or nine times.
- Then, the nice Hungarians reported him.
- When they saw a little movement here or a little movement there,
- they traced down the steps.
- At one point, they find out about Mother.
- And she was kept in a prison for a few days.
- Excuse me.
- Balazs was a very well-liked man in the town,
- and well known also.
- And after the Russian occupation,
- those Hungarians were not as brave anymore.
- And he had connections.
- And he had his wife released from prison.
- She was till the last moment?
- Till the last--
- Till the liberation?
- Till the very last week.
- But before that, they were many times taken.
- They saved 75 to 80 people.
- I know about of 30 that I personally knew.
- They are still in life today?
- Some are in Hungary, in Budapest.
- Some immigrated to Israel.
- As a matter of fact, one person who
- became one of the best friend of my husband
- in a labor camp that was also requested
- to go to work for the airport back at that time,
- became very good friends with my husband.
- And he lives in Connecticut.
- We're still in very good friendship.
- Ever since that time, it so happened
- that we came to this country and they came to this country.
- And at the beginning, when we first came,
- we lived in Connecticut in the same town that they did.
- So this guy was also saved by Balazs that I still
- have the contact with.
- But the others, most of them are still in Budapest.
- I met a few when I was there after the war.
- These people, they are some in a high position
- in a government before the war.
- Some were artists.
- My sister-in-law was an artist.
- Some were just businesspeople.
- Some were engineers and doctors.
- He has a very broad relationship and friendship
- with a lot of people.
- And about, as I said, 75 to 80 people
- can thank him for their life.
- What happened was also in the end, when the German moved out,
- they took all his business equipment and belongings.
- He was stripped down to nothing.
- They ransacked his office, his warehouse, and everything was
- taken by the Germans from him.
- The money, of course, became paper.
- What was 1,000 pengo before the war become nothing.
- So he just could not continue his life in Budapest.
- A man who had [INAUDIBLE] came to this situation
- that was so pitiful.
- They did have a beautiful apartment
- with all very, very nice things and valuables in the apartment
- that they sold.
- And they both moved to South America.
- They couldn't face that nation anymore.
- He himself, as a Gentile, did not want to live there.
- And that was the end of Balazs in Hungary.
- He passed away since.
- His widow remarried, lives in Vienna.
- My husband passed away about 14, 15 years ago
- due to a heart condition that we know where he got it and how.
- And I remarried five years ago, 4 and 1/2 years ago.
- And even though I have a new husband,
- I still keep a relationship with my first husband's sister
- in Vienna, so much so that I took my husband there two
- years ago.
- And we were the guests of my sister-in-law.
- And also, she comes to this country sometimes.
- And she always stays with us.
- And I don't know if you have other questions.
- Just in case somebody is interested about what
- happened to me after the war, we went home.
- Of course, we found nothing.
- But we wanted to live a normal life as much as possible,
- but we just couldn't face those Hungarians.
- So for two reasons, we went back to Germany.
- We went to Germany, rather.
- One, I was looking for my brother or father,
- maybe somewhere, or somebody in my family.
- My father had six brothers.
- They were all killed.
- My mother had five or six sisters with the family.
- They were all killed.
- But we thought at first because ships--
- trains and trains and trains arrived every day in Budapest
- from Germany, coming back after the war.
- And we thought maybe we find something.
- That was one of the reasons.
- The second reason, we couldn't live with the Germans--
- with the Hungarians anymore.
- So we went to Germany.
- And we were in the displaced persons camps for three years
- because the Hungarian quota was very small
- and was very difficult for us to come out here.
- And then finally, we came here.
- And I have a daughter who is 37 now.
- And she married 10 years ago.
- She is an attorney, successful one in Baltimore, Maryland.
- Her husband is a psychotherapist.
- And I remarried, as I said.
- And we picked up the pieces.
- My husband's wife died in an open heart surgery.
- My husband died in an open heart surgery.
- We got married.
- My husband is a physician, a very lovely person.
- He folded up his office due to a very severe stroke.
- He's working for the State of New Jersey
- as a health inspector, visits hospitals.
- And I also went through two major surgery.
- I had a heart surgery.
- And due to one of the medication that I was taking,
- I had a craniotomy.
- But I'm healthy now, thank God.
- And I'm very thankful for every day
- and try not to think and remember anything
- what happened in the Holocaust.
- I don't know if it's good.
- I don't know if it's bad.
- If I talk about it or I see a picture,
- there are three or four days that I
- don't sleep an hour at night.
- So I try to avoid it.
- And we picked up the pieces.
- And we love this country, maybe more
- than those who were born here because we selected this country
- to be our own, and try to keep the contact
- with the little family that's left.
- And that's about my story.
- I'll let you have some questions.
- Well, I would like you to ask a few questions.
- First of all, I would like you to tell some more about Balazs
- and Magda, what kind of people they were, how they looked,
- what was their age.
- Well-- Yes, Magda was a very, very beautiful woman.
- She was in her late teens.
- She was 16, 17, and people turn after her.
- She was such an unusual--
- she was a beauty.
- And maybe because of that, she went into artistic world.
- She was a dancer.
- And Balazs was an electrician at the time.
- And later on, he became an electric engineer.
- And Magda was 16 when Balazs met her at a nightclub
- where she was performing.
- And they fell in love, and they got married.
- Unfortunately, they had no children,
- which they loved children.
- They both loved children.
- They spent quite a bit of money to try to find out why
- and to correct whatever was wrong.
- But unfortunately, they just never could have children.
- So they were childless.
- Did Balazs belong to some kind of organization?
- I don't think so.
- And just now, as I'm looking at his picture, came back to me.
- There was a family in Kaschau that was
- brought to Magda's attention.
- Was a doctor's wife who was very sick
- and have a very young child, I think two years old.
- And her husband was taken away.
- And Magda traveled to Kaschau and got this woman
- with her little child and brought to her apartment.
- And also got an apartment for them.
- And they survived the Holocaust.
- And that was during the war when Magda traveled to Kaschau?
- Yes.
- Yes.
- She knew this woman with the little girl.
- And she told in the house everybody
- that's a relative of hers that was running away
- from the Russians.
- And just those little things coming back little
- by little, people that I know.
- As a matter of fact, when I was hiding in their house,
- she was already there with the baby.
- You mean the baby with the mother
- whom she brought from Kosice?
- The mother and the child.
- I see.
- It was--
- Do you think-- do you think Balazs I work alone
- or he worked with a network?
- I mean, I know that she worked with--
- No, Balazs worked alone.
- Magda was his right hand.
- Because Balazs was busy.
- He was working for the Germans and
- for the Hungarian government.
- And also he had private business.
- So Magda was his tool that he--
- Balazs used his influence, all his influence,
- to have the connections for Magda to go and get these people
- and get apartments.
- And Magda-- Balazs gave all the money and all the security.
- And he, as I told you, was in the prison, many times
- in the police station for a day or a night
- and jeopardized his life.
- But actually, he was working alone with his wife.
- But the fact that Magda did all this, I take it more as a
- granted because she's a Jewish woman.
- But the fact that Balazs did all this--
- What do you think why he did it?
- Because he was a good man.
- Number one, he told many times to me
- he doesn't believe what people do with people.
- And also, the contact with his wife and the wife's
- family and their friends that they were so friendly
- for years and years.
- He was-- they were really in a social--
- in the center of the social life in Budapest.
- And he learned that the Jews were, some of them, not so good,
- some of them very good people.
- But the reason he did this, because his belief of humanity
- made him risk his life, give his money, risk his wife.
- And there are several people like Balazs
- who have thousands of Jews in Germany, in Czechoslovakia,
- in Poland.
- Otherwise, even the few that left would not have been here.
- So Balazs was one of those fighter of the Holocaust.
- Do you think he would do the same thing without Magda?
- I am sure knowing him, knowing his being a humanitarian
- like he was, I am sure he would have.
- Maybe he would not have the access and the ability
- physically to help all those because he
- was working at the same time.
- And this was just his underground work.
- But he would have done whatever he could have,
- even without being married to a Jewish woman.
- How he looked?
- He was very handsome-- tall, blond, a typical Hungarian.
- I knew his sister, who lives in Austria now,
- and a brother, who lives still in Budapest.
- And every time I go there, I visit him.
- Did they help also Jews?
- The brother and the sister?
- I do not know about that.
- Did they know about his activities?
- Oh, yes, they knew about it.
- I don't know if they helped others or not.
- That, I have no knowledge of.
- But I think his sister's husband was not
- the type that would really go out and help Jews.
- Not that I think they were antisemitic.
- They might have been.
- They might have not.
- But his brother, who is now in Budapest,
- he was not an antisemitic.
- I know that for sure.
- So Balazs was a unique man.
- He was a very unique man.
- And he helped.
- Oh, he also traveled to Czechoslovakia.
- When we learned that my brother Alex was in the Pusztahaza.
- He and his wife were there and had wanted to get him out.
- They couldn't.
- But they traveled all the way there.
- When was it?
- This was at the beginning.
- At the beginning.
- At the beginning in 1942, I think.
- As a matter of fact, once I was with her
- in Pusztahaza and also in Ersekujvar at the same time.
- We were there for three days.
- And he-- with his [? beauty, ?] he got to one of the officers
- there and arranged that he had a furlough for three days.
- But she couldn't get him out, and he couldn't get him out
- either.
- At that time, he did not work for the Germans.
- So he did not have that influence.
- And by the time he had influence,
- he was no longer there.
- And that later on, he did get my brother out.
- And he worked for his airport.
- So what would you say how Balazs helped you
- and when was the time summarizing and thinking--
- Well, at the beginning, the very beginning,
- he helped me with giving me a job.
- My husband was in a labor camp.
- At that time, everyone was wearing the yellow star already?
- No, no.
- This was in '42 or so.
- Nobody--
- [?
- So, there have you been deceived. ?]
- The Germans did not come.
- It was just nearby.
- The countries--
- And I read my question.
- So he helped you in that time.
- Well, that's what I want to tell you.
- The first one, the Jewish law came into to the picture
- that so many Jews could remain at the beginning companies.
- And I lost my job.
- He took me into the office.
- And later on, I was important in the office.
- I was doing payroll.
- And I was really his watcher in the office.
- And he liked my work very much.
- And he always called me [NON-ENGLISH].
- That means a brave and good soul or something like that.
- Did he speak German, Balazs?
- A little bit, not too much.
- Beside that, I worked in his office.
- He bought me tickets every other week to go to Czechoslovakia,
- where my husband was in labor camp.
- He bought me the tickets.
- 5 o'clock, I was on the train.
- At that time, we had all the movement.
- It was no restriction yet at that time.
- And he asked me, go and see my husband every other week.
- This went on for a year or so.
- And then, of course, he saved my mother's life, my husband,
- my one brother, and my life.
- I mean, that's the maximum a person can do for a person.
- You say that the Nyilas arrested several times.
- Yes.
- And he was sharing it with you, telling
- how he got out from this?
- After the war, yes.
- After the war.
- At two or three points, three times, the Germans helped him.
- They needed him.
- And he always told them that he is not involved
- with any underground work.
- Did he have a good relationship with some of these Germans?
- Oh, yes.
- He worked with them.
- He worked with them.
- He was the jobber for the airport
- to do the electrical work there, to put
- the whole electrical system in the airport.
- The Germans, that became there--
- That is correct.
- That is correct.
- Right.
- And what would happen?
- Then he would-- he was caught.
- He was caught several times.
- But when he would-- when they would not believe him,
- what he was telling the Germans?
- What when--
- But it so happened that he always got out.
- That's all I know.
- And I also know that the very last week, when
- the Germans were moving back, and they all
- packed from the airport, and they took all his belongings,
- he caught three of the Germans and he took them to prison.
- When the Russians moved in, He had a chance
- to get hold of three of his superior German officers.
- And he took them.
- You always trust him, that he is going to--
- 100%.
- More than 100%.
- Well, I knew him.
- And what do you think?
- I mean, besides being such a good man,
- whose opinion influenced him?
- Why?
- Why he had this kind of belief?
- He had from his parents?
- No, no, he was a orphan.
- His parents died at the early age.
- And all the three children, his sister and a brother,
- they were all brought up with aunts and the family,
- whatever, when they were young.
- No, I believe that his connections
- with Jews in business and his wife's family.
- And he had.
- People like judge that worked at the superior court in Hungary
- that I also knew through him.
- And people like that were his friends.
- And he was a very liberal-thinking person
- even before the Germans came into the picture.
- It was just by nature.
- He was just such kind of a person.
- He never expected anything back in exchange?
- He never expected what?
- Back anything in exchange when he was helping.
- He had some of those Jews that he helped in time.
- He had a lot of people's jewelry, also mine.
- He gave back everything to everybody after the war.
- I think that answers your question.
- So after the liberation, you have been in contact?
- Of course.
- Of course.
- Until my husband moved out from the country.
- We went to Germany.
- They still were there.
- He started to put things together.
- But as I said, shortly after they moved to Argentina, where
- he died.
- Where he died from natural causes?
- No, he had a automobile accident.
- Yeah, I see.
- Do you think about him often?
- A lot.
- Not only me, my brother.
- We talk a lot about him.
- And as I told you before, I see almost every year
- my sister-in-law, who also remarried and lives in Vienna.
- She remarried and moved from Argentina to Vienna.
- And we speak a lot of him.
- Do you remember still other people who helped you,
- other Christians during the struggle?
- Unfortunately, there was nobody who helped me.
- It doesn't mean that no other Hungarians didn't help the Jews.
- But I was not helped by anyone else.
- Do you trust people altogether?
- Well, basically, I'm trusting everybody in everyday life
- until I find out that I have reason not to.
- There are some people, like my brother,
- for instance, who has to be proven by somebody
- to get his trust.
- I am trusting everybody.
- How do you feel about the Germans and about
- the Hungarians, that they--
- The Hungarians, I, if I may use the expression, hate.
- I really never hate people.
- But if I can I use the word, I hate the Hungarians more
- than the Germans.
- Because until this situation came about,
- I did not know that I was not a Hungarian.
- I knew I was a Hungarian who belonged to the Jewish faith.
- And I went to a different synagogue
- than maybe my friend went to a church,
- but that was about the size of it.
- Socially, business, I never knew that I was not a Hungarian
- until one morning when I woke up.
- And they were, I thought, my brothers.
- I was born there.
- I grew up there.
- And therefore, what they did to me,
- I hated them more than I did the Germans.
- Is there anything that you did not cover
- and you would like to say?
- Well, I wonder if I put enough emphasis of the life saving
- that he did when he got those 35 people out of the labor camps.
- He actually saved those 35 people's lives
- because almost 100% of the people
- from those labor camps wounded up in concentration camps.
- And they actually were safe from that, and their life was saved.
- Another thing is that I am not working for the Holocaust.
- I am, I think, not strong enough to do that.
- I do have feeling towards--
- work for my fellow man, my fellow Jews.
- When I was a young person.
- I was very much involved with a youth group, a Jewish youth
- group headed by Rabbi Schreiber.
- His brother, who is a doctor today, neurologist in New York
- City, was the best friend of my husband.
- And his father was also a rabbi, was a very well-known rabbi.
- So I got involved with the youth group.
- And we did very good work, visited young people
- and let them come back to synagogue and to religion.
- And after the war, I worked with the United Nations.
- I was sent to a training school.
- And I became a liaison between the occupied American Army
- and the concentration camps.
- I became a welfare officer.
- I was head--
- I headed 27 camps, Jewish and non-Jewish.
- And I was just as good or working as hard
- for the non-Jewish camps for the displaced persons
- as for the Jewish.
- Well, maybe a little bit more for the Jewish.
- Today, I'm working for the UJA.
- As a matter of fact, this coming Sunday
- is going to be the Super Sunday in my neighborhood.
- I may work on a telephone.
- I have several plaques showing that I make
- a lot of money for the UJA.
- I do as much as I can in Hadassah,
- making sure that we get some money to Israel.
- And yes, I changed.
- I am more aware of being a Jew than I was before.
- What is it that you would convey to the future generations
- about the Holocaust?
- Well, having a daughter, and my brother
- has two children, the way we brought them up,
- we told them everything what happened to us.
- We wanted them to know.
- And we want them as we would like
- the future generation of Jews not
- to let the world step on them.
- And I think when they took us, we didn't have too much chance.
- But we could have resisted somehow.
- Like in other countries, they had the Warsaw ghetto,
- and they had the uprising.
- The Hungarian Jews didn't believe that it's
- going to happen to us.
- You did not talk about who survived,
- who survived from your family.
- Well, the immediate family.
- Of course, thanks to Balazs, I had my younger brother
- and my husband back.
- And my mother and me.
- If it's not Balazs, none of us would have been here.
- Because unfortunately, my father didn't come back.
- My older brother didn't come back.
- That's the immediate family.
- Then all my father's brothers and families, children, wife.
- The same from my mother's side.
- In other words, I have left one grandmother out from the ghetto
- also Magda brought her home.
- And she died of natural cause afterwards.
- Also, Magda brought back my Aunt Elsa and her son,
- who lives in New York.
- My cousin just the other day, he said if it's not for Balazs,
- his mother would never have been survived
- because she was bedridden.
- So that's the only immediate family that was left.
- And thank God I have cousins in Long Island
- and some cousins in Israel.
- But otherwise, the majority of my family was wiped out.
- So having all this experience, this terrible experience,
- what did you learn about yourself and about people
- in general?
- Well, it's a very tough question.
- I don't think I'm going to be able to answer this
- the right way.
- About people, I learned people are the same people.
- And they have some maniac leaders in this world.
- And it was before, and it's going to be in the future.
- You just have to fight for your rights
- and try to help each other.
- About myself, the only thing I think
- I learned that I didn't know before,
- as I had mentioned earlier, that I am proud being a Jew.
- And I think I learned that I'm stronger
- than I thought I was to go through all that
- and still able to talk about it.
- What do you think about Balazs?
- About Balazs?
- He was not a religious person.
- The only religion I know that he kept
- was Christmas Day because I used to be there sometimes
- on a Christmas dinner.
- But he was not a religious person.
- So the goodness in him was not because he was religious.
- He was just a good person who couldn't
- see people slaughtered just because
- of belonging to one faith.
- And Magda?
- And Magda?
- Magda was not religious at all.
- And she was very [? sad ?] [CROSS TALK].
- She was always converted, Magda?
- Pardon me?
- She stayed always Jewish, Magda?
- Yes.
- Or she was converted to Catholicism?
- She always stayed Jewish.
- She did not take Balazs' faith?
- No.
- No, she did not.
- Because it was not important to Balazs that she--
- that she should turn to his religion.
- Religion did not mean anything to him as such.
- They were happy together with one
- being what they were individually.
- He was just a good man.
- And I'm sorry he's not here anymore to take some real credit
- for life saving.
- But I'm sure he felt very good for every man
- that he saved that was his.
- Did you ever try to send the story about him to Yad Vashem?
- No, I did not.
- I think maybe--
- It's a human error.
- We're out of something, and then we
- don't really continue and fill up things the way it should be.
- No, I did not.
- You think he would deserve it?
- I think, oh, definitely, positively if somebody,
- he deserves to be there.
- I think you should--
- His name should be there.
- And I really would very much appreciate.
- And I would tell his widow of it.
- Feel very good about it.
- Yeah, we want to help you with it.
- Does he have children?
- No children.
- They never had children.
- They never had children.
- Is there anything else what you would like to say?
- No, the only thing I--
- the Lord to bless his soul.
- Indeed.
- We're finished.
- So thank you so much.
- You're welcome.
- To giving-- for giving me this interview.
- You're welcome.
- You were very nice.
- And you have been very, very helpful to us.
- And I hope we are going to use your story
- for very useful purposes.
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Lilly Lynder-Luftman
- Date
-
interview:
1986 January 22
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
1 sound cassette (90 min.).
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives.
- Personal Name
- Lynder-Luftman, Lilly.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received a copy of the interview from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History Branch
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:21:30
- This page:
- http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn520407
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