Oral history interviews with Colette Pascal, Georges Broucher, Robert Charbonnier, Rene Plavinet, and André Lelong

Oral history interviews with Irène Paillassou and Renée Paillassou

Oral History

Irène Paillassou (born in 1910 and 86 years old at the time of the interview) and Renée Paillassou (born in 1912 and 84 years old at the time of the interview), discuss living in Cannes; their family background; their life-long teaching careers; their love for Chabannes and the children of Chabannes whom they educated and those they saved; Renée being sanctioned in 1942 by the Vichy regime and being banned from teaching in the Creuse for “frequenting a milieu of Free Masons and Jews”; Renée’s return to her parents’ home without a job between 1942-1945; Renée’s belief that she was sanctioned because she refused to take her students at night to the railroad overpass to wave flags as Pétain; their steadfast commitment to the French Resistance; the poor radio reception across the Creuse, depriving the population of information; their belief that they were saving Jewish refugee children from mobilization in concentration camps, not deportation to be exterminated; the arrival of Jewish refugee children in Chabannes in 1939-1940; how the majority of the children were German nationals and did not speak or write French; the placement of the older children (numbering approximately 100) in the chateau and their schooling in trades; the placement of the primary-school-age refugee children (numbering 60-65) in the Chabannes primary school in the village; the respective roles of Irène as the school principal and Renée as a primary teacher (she taught the students to speak and to write in French); the superior academic performance of the Jewish refugee children as they learned French in record time; the key role of Dr. Meisele [SP], an OSE doctor placed at the chateau, in saving the Jewish refugee children; Dr. Meisele asking the Paillssous’ father (a retired gendarme) to request Monsieur Barbaud [SP] (a brigade chief in Bénévant responsible for accounting for number of Jewish refugees) to forewarn them of any roundups; their utter surprise that Barbaud said yes; receiving a warning from Barboud of an impending roundup in August 1942; Renée’s role in conveying information to Chevrier with code “Cousins from Nantes arriving tonight”; the two cars that came to arrest the children and staff; Chevrier’s immediate action to scatter and hide the children in the adjacent forest. The sisters read extracts from Chevrier’s diary, recounting the daily happenings at the chateau, the sanctioning of Renée, the fear of informants, etc.; and their great emotion in anticipating the reunion of children of Chabannes and reconnecting with them.

Oral history interview with Raoul Vaugelade

Oral History

Raoul Vaugelade, representing the French municipality Saint-Pierre-de-Fursac, discusses his research on the rescue efforts in Chabannes as well as the Jewish refugee children, teachers, and village residents involved (the preparation is for an exhibit); and the interviews conducted by the “Children of Chabannes” filmmakers. He describes Chabannes village before 1940, which had a few business establishments, including a café-bar and a boulangerie as well as one public school with three classes and three teachers (including the sisters Irène and Renée Paillassou, RG-50.812*0001); the reports that state how after the first arrival of Jewish children in 1940, three additional classes were opened in the Château; how Jewish children fully integrated into the village life and arrived from Russia, Germany, Hungary, and Austria. He shows a school matriculation book for boys, noting that the one for girls had disappeared; and he shows the entries, which include the child’s name, country of origin, date of birth, father’s profession if still alive, date of entry into school, etc. He describes the various roles for the rescue operation within the community, including the duties of Félix Chevrier, the Château director Georges Roby, a local farmer/butcher who helped with food supplies to the Château, the key roles of sisters Paillassou and their retired policeman father (he secured vital intelligence about potential arrests/roundups between 1940-1943); the daily interactions between the villagers, the Château staff, and the refugee children; how there was no sense of danger associated with hiding the children until after the August 1942 roundups; and the continued cooperation by village population after the danger was more acutely felt.

Oral history interview with Georges Roby

Oral History

Georges Roby, born on March 3, 1907 in Chabannes, France, describes being a farmer and butcher in Chabannes, where he has lived his whole life; the Jewish children brought to the Château de Chabannes and the sisters Paillassou (RG-50.812*0001) who taught them; the efforts of the villagers to help save the children and his role in supplying food from his farm to the Château; the absence of fear and the sustained efforts after the August 1942 roundups; and the Jewish children being housed amongst local families while their escape was being organized.

Oral history interview with Jean Michaud

Oral History

Jean Michaud, historian, discusses the socioeconomic and political environment in general terms of the Creuse Department before and during WWII; statistics concerning the Jews in the Creuse before and during the war; official statistics in June 1943 that list 2762 Jews in the Creuse, of which 1088 were French-born and 1570 were foreign-born; the unreliability of these statistics given the number of forged identity cards; how at the signing of the Armistice, Jews fled Paris and its suburbs, some headed for the Creuse where they had relatives; the July 16, 1942 roundup in Paris, after which more Jews fled to the Creuse, but were unwelcome by the authorities, since they lacked the city and arrondissement formal/legal authorizations to leave and were forced to pay a 1500 franc fine (this was equal to the salary of an experienced teacher at the time); how most foreign-born Jews came from Poland and were of modest means, trained as tailors, butchers, etc; how the French-born Jews came mostly from Paris’ 3me arrondissement, while others arrived from Lille; the Creusois, a predominantly rural population living in small villages and hamlets and were tolerant of the Jews; the antisemitism in France, which was fueled by the far-Right press in Paris, papers which were not available in the Creuse; the Creusois gendarmerie functioned under the Pétain regime until June 9, 1944; the local gendarme, which was part of the local population and was not, therefore, prepared to vigorously enforce the Vichy decrees until August 26, 1942 when roundups of foreign-born Jews began in the free zone; one occasion when there was a roundup of 91 adults, who were taken from their homes in the Creuse and deported to Germany; the September 1, 1942 ordered roundup of 33 foreign-born Jewish children to be taken from the chateaux of Masgelier and Chabannes, and then to the Rivesaltes transit camp; and how 13 of the 33 from Chabannes had been saved by Félix Chevrier, and six had escaped the roundup at Masgelier, owing to help from the local population and gendarmeries.

Video footage of the pre-Chabannes reunion with Gerda Bikales, Norbert Bikales, Charles Norman, Ruth Keller, Ernst Rosner, Edith Rosner, Inge Roman, Wolfgang Blumenreich, Miriam Blumenreich, Jerry Gerard, Ossi Goldstein, and Charles Roman

Oral History

Oral history interviews with André Lelong and Robert Charbonnier

Oral History

André Lelong and Robert Charbonnier share their anticipation and emotion of meeting the now-grown Jewish children who were in school with them in Fursac-Chabannes, France. They muse at questions they will ask, wonder whom they will recognize, and what they will remember. Charbonnier shares a class photo he brought to the reunion, identifies Michel Razimofsky [PH], Norbert Bikales, and Anatole Zylberstein.

Video footage of the Chabannes reunion

Oral History

Video footage of the Chabannes reunion, which includes Parts 1 and 2: Reunion at the train station with André Lelong, Robert Charbonnier, Norbert Bikales, Gerda Bikales, Irène Paillassou, Renée Paillassou, Ninette DePomme, Nancy Gossels, Peter Gossels, Werner Gossels, and many others; Part 3: Gathering at the Château de Chabannes; Part 4: Presentation of the plaque for the Château de Chabannes which includes Ernst Rosner, Charlie Roman, and Jean Francois Guthmann, as well as everyone from the reunion and staff from the Ouevre de Secours aux Enfants (OSE); Part 5: The presentation continues with footage of Jerry Gerard, Ruth Keller, and Michele Ramniceanu, Claudine Salamon; Part 6: Jerry Gerard speaks during the presentation, footage of everyone on the back steps of the château, and then Jerry Gerard is interviewed (starting at around the 16 minute mark); Part 7: Gerry Gerard's interview continues; Parts 8 and 9: Jerry Gerard walks through the château and around its grounds and then there is footage of a reception and an exhibition about the OSE; Parts 9 and 10: Officials speaking at a WWII memorial for people who served in the resistance, additional footage of the OSE exhibition featuring attendees Norbert Bikales, Ossi Goldstein, Jerry Gerard, Peter Gossels, Werner Gossels, and Ruth Keller who, acting in the role of guide, identifies people in the photos such as Jimmy Marcuse; Part 11: Departure at the train station featuring many of the attendees of the Chabannes reunion.

Oral history interview with Wolfgang Blumenreich

Oral History

Wolfgang Blumenreich (at the time of the interview he was age 71 and living in Israel), born in Berlin, Germany in 1924, describes his mother and father, who were deported; being declared an orphan and sent to Chabannes, France; his memories of twin brothers, one of whom was killed at age 21 while the other one was a member of the British-formed Jewish Brigade fighting the Germans in Italy; his pleasant life in Chabannes; being part of a football team that played against village boys; working in a leather works factory, making bags; helping to harvest wheat with Chabannes farmers; the arrival of French militia to Chabannes in the middle of an August night to deport the oldest German-born children; being sent to Drancy and then deported to Auschwitz; the 13 selections, beginning in Auschwitz, of able-bodied workers; being eventually sent to 13 work camps; being hospitalized after liberation in Pitié Salpêtrière Hospital for severe malnourishment; the reasons he survived the camps, including his will to survive, his desire to see his brother, and his robust athletic form; immigrating to Israel; and his three children, with whom he never talked about his concentration camp experience.

Oral history interview with Miriam Blumenreich

Oral History

Miriam Blumenreich, speaking on behalf of her husband, Wolfgang (Wolfie) Blumenreich (who was a child of Chabannes deported at the age of 16 from the Chateau during the second roundup), recounts her arrival in Israel in 1934; her marriage to Wolfgang in 1952; her husband’s extreme reticence to discuss his three years in nine different concentration camps, which included Birkenau and Auschwitz; her husband’s refusal to discuss his experience at any length; her husband’s return to France at liberation at which time he found his brother and their decision to go to Palestine; her husband’s enlistment in the army to fight for Israel’s independence in 1948; and her husband’s extreme emotional fragility.

Oral history interviews with Norbert Bikales, Ernst Rosner, and Colette Dony Pascal, and footage of Ninette DePomme

Oral History

Parts 1-3: Norbert Bikales, Ernst Rosner, and Collette Dony Pascal discuss their experiences during a classroom presentation at the lycee St. Pierre de Fursac. Part 4: Ninette DePomme shows photos to Norbert Bikales in her home.

Oral history interviews with Ninette DePomme, Norbert Bikales, and André Lelong

Oral History

Three individuals, Ninette DePomme, Norbert Bikales, and André Lelong, reminisce around a scrapbook, belonging to Ninette DePomme, that includes photos of her family prior to the arrival of the Jewish children in Chabannes and during their stay in Chabannes. Ms. DePomme points out to Norbert Bikales, who was one of the Jewish refugee children from Germany at Chabannes, photos of teachers, buildings of interest, and, in general, reminds him of the history of Chabannes at the time. There is no participation of André Lelong in the discussions.

Oral history interview with Georges Loinger

Oral History

Georges Loinger, born in 1910 in Strasbourg, Germany (now France), describes his early life; his encounter with the growth of Nazi Germany and antisemitism; studying engineering before studying physical education (this was after Joseph Weil told him there were enough engineers but the survival of the Jews would require people of robust health and determination); moving to Paris to finish his physical education studies; his first job as a physical education teacher in one of Baron Edouard de Rothschild’s chateaus, the Guette, which was established to shelter Jewish refugee children from Germany; the 123 children brought from Germany in 1936-1937 to the Guette; serving in the military during the war; being captured and imprisoned in Germany; learning that when Germany invaded France in 1939, the children were transferred to La Bourboule; receiving information during his imprisonment; escaping in 1940-1941; crossing the Vosges near the Struthoff concentration camp (although he did not know it at the time); meeting his wife in La Bourboule; his fear when overhearing a conversation in La Bourboule about children speaking German; going to Montpellier to seek OSE help to get the children to safety; the OSE creating five children’s homes on the outskirts of Paris to shelter the Jewish children, before they began establishing homes in the Creuse; the OSE sending children to inter-alia, Chabannes and Château du Masgelier (located in Le Grand-Bourg); his job visiting all the OSE homes and developing physical education programs; traveling for a year without any difficulty because he was blonde and blue-eyed; creating at each school a system of monitors whom he trained and who were responsible to continue the program in his absence; learning in 1943 from Joseph Weil that the Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews and the homes had to be disbanded and the children relocated; the réseau Garel, which found host families and institutions to take the Jewish children, changed the children’s names, placed them in Christian schools, and trained them to assimilate into their towns and villages; the support of the Archbishop of Toulouse; organizing an escape network for those children who were unable to assimilate easily, smuggling them to Switzerland with the help of the Mayor Jean Deffaugt of Annemasse, a border town; Deffaugt who was a pétainiste but was against his collaboration with the Nazis and, therefore, a willing conspirator with Loinger; the various means to develop and secure the escape routes, procuring forged documents, and food; the cooperation from smugglers along the way; saving approximately 1000 children; his life after WWII; his efforts to achieve safe passage from Germany for survivors heading to Palestine; and his efforts to establish the state of Israel.

Oral history interviews with Irène Paillassou, Renée Paillassou, and C. Peter R. Gossels

Oral History

C. Peter R. Gossels (known as Peter Gossels), born on August 11, 1930 in Berlin, Germany, reminisces with the sisters Paillassou about Chabannes, France; the reunion; their memories of wartime and of each other and the joy of seeing one another again; Gossels’ early life in Berlin; his father, who was a judge and was told to leave in March 1939; going to Belgium without Gossels and his brother, Werner; his mother, Lotte, who was divorced from their father; seeking an escape route by train; arriving in France on July 4, 1939 along with 38 other children; stopping initially at Château Quincy-sous-Sénart for 9-10 months; beginning again in Chabannes, for seven months; learning to garden for their food supply; the kind, loving, and receptive environment of the Creusois and Chabannais; the courage and heroism of the sisters Paillassou and others who risked their lives, families, and town to save the children; the importance of his daughter Lisa Gossels’ work in remembering the Children of Chabannes; the murder of his mother in Auschwitz; the importance of remembering the experiences of those who were with him in Chabannes; his memories of the sisters Paillassou; visiting Chabannes in 1963 with his wife and reuniting with sisters Paillassou; how this was the first of many visits; maintaining a relationship with the Paillassou sisters over the years; his reminisces with his daughter about his mother and her deportation; his schoolwork in Chabannes; his post-war memories; and his pride in his daughter’s film work.

Oral history interview with C. Peter R. Gossels

Oral History

Oral history interview with René Castille

Oral History

At the beginning of the interview, a student from the lycee in St. Pierre de Fursac reads a poem she wrote about the children of Chabannes. René Castille (member of the maquis de Creuse and historian of Creuse 1940-1944) describes materials on Jewish children hidden in the Creuse found in local and Creuse Department archives; the general lack of awareness of the plight of Jewish children because newspapers did not write about it during WWII; the lists of Jewish children hidden in the Creuse; information on Chabannes; the importance of Félix Chevrier, who was a non-Jew, socialist, reported Free Mason, and head of Château de Chabannes; the uniqueness of the Chabannes situation, where efforts were made to assimilate Jewish children within the community rather than relocating them to an isolated hiding place; the successful integration of Jewish children because of the Paillassou sisters, who were revered by the community and admired as excellent teachers; how the Creuseois were a largely welcoming population and took in the children because they were children in need not because of their religion; the absence of invasions and occupations of the Creuse for centuries, which hindered fears of Nazi penetration of the Department; how most Creusois had no contact with the Germans even after the invasion of the Free Zone on November 11, 1942; the people of Creusois joining the Resistance and saving the children because they were patriots, raised in patriotic families whose fathers had served in WWI; his views on how the patriotic spirit in the Creuse Department predisposed people to save the Jewish children; the demographics of France during WWII, including the number of people deported or murdered; and the 12 years he has spent researching in order to prevent this history from being forgotten.

Oral history interview with Arlette Pillet

Oral History

Arlette Desmoulins (née Pillet), born in Chabannes in 1935, describes being a school friend to the Jewish children in Chabannes; life in Chabannes; the general sadness amongst the Jewish children, who missed their parents but were happy to be at school; and her delight at seeing so many individuals returning for the reunion at Chabannes years later. [Note that this interview consists of two videos, one of four musicians and the other is a brief interview with Mme. Pillet.]

Conversation and interviews with a group at the home of André Lelong

Oral History

Part 1: Local musicians playing music; interviews with the musicians; and (at the 12 minute mark) a conversation around a table in the home of André Lelong, which includes Robert Charbonnier and men who were peers of the Jewish children during the war. Part 2: Continued conversation and then footage of the local musicians and dancing.

Farmers at Masgelier

Oral History

Raymond Pénot (born May 16, 1928), Maurice Devalois (born March 10, 1927), and Marcel Valadon (born September 1, 1925), describe being young farmers during WWII; conditions around the Château le Masgelier, an OSE-run children’s home; the efforts to hide and care for many child and adult Jewish refugees, many of whom arrived from Paris and Eastern Europe; their thoughts on how the Creuse region was probably more open to accepting refugees because of the number of WWI veterans living there and the longstanding hatred for the Germans; the refugee children living in the Château; the activity of the “maquisards” (partisan groups) in the region and the skirmishes with the Vichy militia; the farmers’ efforts to provide food both to the “maquisards” as well as to the Jewish children at the Château; hiding Boris Pludermacher, who was an OSE staff member at the Château Le Masgelier being pursued by the SS; their thoughts on the reason the maquis was created in the Creuse, believing it was due to young French men fleeing to the countryside after the Germans tried to mobilize the 20-year-old Creusois to work in Germany; and their description of the region of Creuse as a place of very strong beliefs and opinions but very welcoming to those who were persecuted by the Nazis.

Oral history interview with Madame Du Petit Magneux and Arlette Pillet

Oral History

Madame Du Petit Magneux and Arlette Pillet discuss their memories of the Jewish refugee children during the war.

Oral history interviews with Madame Du Petit Magneux and Madame de Magnion

Oral History

Madame de Magnion, with relatively few recollections of the Jewish children of Chabannes, discusses her specific hardships; the constant fear; the need to show papers to police constantly; the shortages of food; and her role in the Chabannes school kitchen. Madame Du Petit Magneux (84 years old), a farmer from Fursac, discusses the Jewish refugees; supplying milk to the chateau; the children who visited her to collect milk from her farm; sheltering a Chabannes child named Boris and his return to see her after the war; other Jewish children who stayed for short periods on her farm; and her decision to shelter the children because she understood their fear and could relate to them over the loss of their parents as she had lost her father when she was a child.

Oral history interview with Madame de Magnion

Oral History

Madame de Magnion recall the difficulties of the war and her willingness to open her family’s doors to the Jewish refugee children of Chabannes because it was the right thing to do, notwithstanding the risks; one of the children, Boris, who came to stay with her; and supplying milk to the children at the chateau. (She shares photos of her family.)

Oral history interview with Serge Klarsfeld and Beate Klarsfeld

Oral History

Serge Klarsfeld, a lawyer and historian who was born in Bucharest, Romania in 1935, describes himself as a French Jew; his father, who volunteered in the French army, fought the Germans, and escaped from a Stalag (prisoner-of-war camp); his father’s return to France after his escape, at which time he fled with his family (including Serge as well as Serge’s mother and sister) from Masgelier to Nice; and his father being subsequently arrested, deported, and murdered. Berte Klarsfeld describes herself as a German-born, non-Jew who met her husband in the metro; her commitment along with her husband to document, educate, and disseminate history of the Holocaust and those lost and those who survived; their struggle to bring the Holocaust to the public view; the need to educate children; and the effort to exhort the French government to assume responsibility for its role in Vichy France and the key role of President Jacques Chirac in this regard. Serge discusses the Chabannes reunion years after the war, stressing that he and Beate had kept in touch with Chabannes children over the years; and their commitment to continue their work as long as possible.

Oral history interview with Lydia Jablonski

Oral History

Lydia Jablonski (née Hillman) [phonetic spelling], born 1911 in Riga, Latvia, discusses moving to in Paris, France in 1931; meeting her husband, who was a German Jewish political refugee named Ernest Jablonski, in 1938; her husband’s background, including his flight from Berlin in 1931 because he was a communist; their marriage; looking for work and taking positions as teachers in the Château de la Guette, a Rothschild children’s home for mostly German Jewish refugees outside of Paris; the Kinder transports from Austria and Germany, which evacuated Jewish children to safety; life at the Guette, where in 1939 there were 130 children; her husband’s detention at the outbreak of the war in 1939 and Mme Loinger arriving to replace him as director; staying at Château de Chabannes from 1941 to 1943; the personality attributes of Félix Chevrier; the summer of 1942 when major roundups occurred, including on August 26, 1942 when French police circled the Château, detained six children and her husband, and transported them to Camp Nexon; the release of her husband several days later; the second roundup in September 1942 when rural policeman arrived with a list of 14 children to be detained (several of the children had already been spirited to safety by Chevrier, who was forewarned of the roundup); her husband’s arrest in February 1943 and his departure by vehicle to the train station; her husband’s escape; Chabannes villagers offering to hide her; securing forged identity cards that permitted both her and her husband to flee to Limoges and then two different hiding places; her husband continuing his OSE work while they were in hiding; and her memories of a Chabannes reunion many years later.

Oral history interview with Rachel Pludermacher

Oral History

Rachel Pludermacher, born November 9, 1908 in Vilnius, Lithuania (87 years old at the time of the interview), discusses her arrival in France in 1922; the establishment of the O.S.E., which was first created in Russia, then opened in Germany and later in France, and its mission to care for refugee Jewish children; being the first employee of the O.S.E. in France in 1934; working in Montmorency first, Chabannes from 1940-1943, and Izieu from 1943-1944; leaving Paris for Chabannes with the Jewish children two days before the arrival of the Nazis in 1940; how the children were cared for, their relations with the local population, the procurement of food for the children of Chabannes, the importance of Georges Loinger as a physical education instructor, and the role of Félix Chevrier; life at Izieu, including the difficulties finding food for the refugee children, the April 6, 1944 roundup at the children’s home where 44 children and seven staff were arrested, and eventually deported and murdered in Auschwitz, by order of Klaus Barbie; the escape of Léon Reifman, a medical student who cared for the sick children in Izieu. (The interview concludes with the sharing of photo albums.)

Oral history interview with Gert Alexander

Oral History

Gert Alexander, born 40 km from Berlin, Germany on March 8, 1927, discusses his life events; the OSE (OEuvre de secours aux enfants) altering his birth year for documents; being on the OSE convoy of children from Berlin to Switzerland, which was the last legal convoy allowed by Nazis; being stopped at Annemasse, France by Italians with 12 other children (each child was carrying a forged and a real identity card); being transferred to Hôtel Pax; how when Italians stopped the convoy, he tore up his French ID card; being turned over to French police; being relocated to a children’s home while the OSE organized departures; being transferred first to Geneva and later to Paris and eventually to Chabannes; (Gert deviates from chronology to explain that he was placed by parents in a children’s home in Berlin 1938); serendipitously securing OSE passage to Paris to a chateau in Quincy-sous-Sénart (30 km south of Paris); the owner of the chateau, Count Hubert Conquere de Monbrison, who had agreed in response to his children’s Jewish doctor and OSE board member to hide refugee children; staying at Quincy-sous-Sénart until September 1940; being transferred to a Quaker children’s home near Porte des Lilas in Paris; being provided with identity papers indicating they were under Quaker protection; being able to venture around Paris and go to school without great risk until the Americans entered the war, at which time they were transferred to Chabannes in 1941; life in Chabannes; learning a leather trade and participating in sports events; education in the chateau; the difficult winter and illness at the chateau; going to school; the absence of fear; the deportation of his parents from Berlin to Theresienstadt and later to Auschwitz where they were murdered; and the photos, letters, and documents confirming his parents’ murder at Auschwitz (Gert shows these materials during the interview).

Oral history interview with André Lelong and Ginette Lelong

Oral History

André Lelong, born February 14, 1929, and Ginette Lelong, born September 12, 1933, (married 55 years with a daughter and one grandson), discuss the children of Chabannes; the village of Chabannes; the links between Chabannes and Saint Pierre de Fursac; André’s memory of the five students with him at school in Fursac, and his delight at the possibility of meeting them again; their lack of knowledge during the war about concentration camps and gas chambers; André’s knowledge that the children’s parents were “detained” in Germany (but his father had been a prisoner in Germany, so he did not attach importance to the situation); his joy upon reconnecting with three of the Jewish children as adults; returning to Chabannes for a reunion; his grandmother, who married a mason from Limousin, and left for Paris with her husband and opened a restaurant in the 12th arrondissement, where politics ruled the discussions; his grandmother’s return to Fursac after his grandfather’s death; how his childhood was full of political discussions, largely anchored in communism; the honest, hardworking people from Limousin and their willingness to accept the Jewish refugee children (they had a familiarity with taking in refugees fleeing oppression in previous generations and, therefore, desired to help the children); and their commitment both to each other and to fighting racism and preventing the Holocaust from happening again.

Oral history interview with Norbert Bikales

Oral History

Oral history interview with David Douvette

Oral History

David Douvette, who was born in May 1944 and is a historian with a focus on World War II, discusses antisemitism in France; the Jewish population before the war; the differences between the French-born and foreign-born Jews; the rise of Philippe Pétain as a leader of the Vichy government; the initial belief by the French-born Jews that the emerging Vichy anti-Jewish decrees and rhetoric were aimed at the immigrant Jews and not at them; the draconian restrictions; the Vichy government decision to deport Jewish children under age 15; the Vel d'Hiv roundup in July 1942, after which organizations began to mobilize to save the children from being deported by putting them in children’s homes and other institutions; the OSE (OEuvre de secours aux enfants), including its origins, internal politics, and work to save the Jewish children; how the OSE picked the Creuse department as one of several to remove the endangered Jewish children out of Paris and into children’s homes; the legal framework of these institutions and the legal status of the children who were registered as Jews at the local government office; how Creuse was a region with republican, humanist, democratic foundations and the people there were committed to their neighbors and their country; the role and character of Félix Chevrier, director of the Château de Chabannes; Douvette’s historical perspective which leads him to believe that the French government did very little to help the Jews and a minimal number of French civilians courageously intervened at the local level; how the Catholic Church converted many of the Jewish children they saved and others demanded money to seek escape routes; and his thoughts on the French school system, which he believes failed to adequately program discussions on the French role in the war for many years following the war.

Oral history interview with Vivette Samuel

Oral History

Vivette Samuel (née Vivette Hermann), born in Paris, France on May 23, 1919, discusses the origins of OSE (OEuvre de secours aux enfants), including its creation, its purpose, the evolution of its purpose given conditions on the ground during WW2; her work with OSE, specifically her assignment beginning in 1941 to Rivesaltes; her OSE work after the war; being age 22 at the outbreak of WWII in 1939, at which point she was forced to interrupt her philosophy studies because she was a Jew; working for OSE as a social worker, assigned to Rivesaltes Internment Camp to extract Jewish children from the camp to avoid deportation; the country’s attitude to Philippe Pétain (the French Ambassador to Spain); how foreigners arriving in the 1930s immediately understood not to trust Pétain, in contrast to French-born Jews who believed Petain had only France’s interest at heart because of his status as a WWI hero; how the national attitudes began to change in part because of the July 1942 Vel d’Hiv roundup and deportation of children; the accelerated recruitment of French youth to serve in the SRO; her decision to not register as a Jew because she believed it was not their business; the three phases of OSE work in France, first, working to extract Jewish children from internment camps, their relocation to children’s homes and their training/education to learn trades and develop physical education skills, second, beginning in July 1942, creating a clandestine network and, in particular, the Garel network, to secure safety of Jewish children, changing identity through forged identification papers, identification of families to house in secret Jewish children and mobilizing funding to achieve these goals, and third, the post-war effort, which concentrated on reuniting Jewish children with their families and securing safe and supportive environments for those children whose parents were murdered by the Nazis; how the Protestants were ahead of OSE in developing networks to save Jewish children because they, themselves, had experienced persecution in France; and her book “Rescuing the Children” which was published in 2002.

Oral history interview with Ernst Rosner

Oral History

Ernst Rosner, born July 5, 1926 in Graz, Austria, discusses his early life; arriving in France in 1939 via Switzerland; his father, Norbert, who was incarcerated in Dachau after Kristallnacht, and released in March 1939; the family settling in Abbeville in the Somme region because of their desire to ultimately immigrate to England; the second arrest of his father by the Nazis in May 1939; the bombing by the Germans of Abbeville; escaping on foot with his mother to Rouen, then Paris, and then Vinezac in Ardèche; his mother settling in Vinezac and sending him to Chabannes in September 1940 to learn the leather trade; the origins of the Chabannais children, including the first group whose parents were in Paris and sent their children to safety in Chabannes at the end of 1940, the second group which began arriving from Germany and Poland, and the third group which was comprised of children liberated from the detention camps of Gurs and Rivesaltes; his memories of Félix Chevrier (a firm director) and Ernest Jablonsky (a teacher extraordinaire of many subjects); the importance of cultural life, including the creation of a small musical group; the lack of any real contact with Chabannais villagers, except when helping with the harvest and planting; general life after his escape from the August 1942 roundup; the deportation of his parents to Auschwitz prior to that date; working on an OSE road construction project after the roundup; and eventually joining the Resistance in Vercors in June 1944. At the end of the interview he looks at a scrapbook of photos and written entries about life in Chabannes and reiterates the importance of the education he received as a fundamental anchor for the rest of his life.

Oral history interview with Rachel Pludermacher

Oral History

Rachel Pludermacher, born November 5, 1908 in Vilna (Vilnius), Lithuania, describes life in Chabannes at the Château; working with Georges Loinger, who organized the physical education activities for the children; her view of Monsieur Chevrier, in particular his happy personality and devotion to his students; the creation of OSE (OEuvre de secours aux enfants) in Russia and its relocation to Germany and then to France, where she became the first OSE employee in Paris in 1934; the OSE’s network of children’s homes organized to house Jewish children; the German occupation of France in 1940, and how the OSE house was shelled in Montmorency, near Paris; going to Chabannes with the children; the group of 16 children for whom she was responsible; their attempts to provide a normal life for the children; living from day to day; rationing of food; and life in a small town with mostly wonderful supportive neighbors.

Oral history interview with Frederick Pottecher

Oral History

George Pottecher, born 1905 in Bussang, Vosges, discusses his family roots in the Vosges; his professions as a journalist, reporter, court reporter for Radio d’Etat, author, and actor; his memoir “A Haute Voix”; covering more than 50 Nazi trials and, in particular, that of Klaus Barbie; his memories of Félix Chevrier, born in Epinal in the Vosges, whom he met through an uncle and with whom he remained friends until Chevrier’s death; Chevrier, who Pottecher describes as republican, Free Mason, teacher, bold, and daring; Chevrier establishing the school in the Château de Chabannes; Chevrier’s devotion to saving Jewish children; the cultural contributions Chevrier made to the children’s lives through his many connections and commitment to making life as normal as possible; and Pottecher reads with emotion from the 1942 diary of Chevrier describing life at the school.

Oral history interview with Adrienne Betoule

Oral History

Sitting in front of a house where M. and Mme. Koenig and their son lived during WWII, Adrienne Betoule (born in 1910) discusses her recollections of the war; her husband, who is a farmer and was called up in 1939 to serve on the Italian border; M. Koenig’s regular visits to the Château; her lack of any real contact with the Jewish children in the Château; providing vegetables, potatoes, etc. to the Château from their farm; her son attending school at the Château when he was 4years old; the roundup of Chabannes children in the Chateau; and the many children who were hidden in the village because they were forewarned by M. Paillassou (the Paillassou sisters’ father who was a retired policeman).

Oral history interview with Yvonne Labrousse

Oral History

Yvonne Labrousse, born in 1914 in a small village near Chabannes, describes her early life; getting married to a teacher at the Chateau de Chabannes; life in Chabannes, including the political leanings of the region; the efforts made by the community to hide, educate, and feed the Jewish children; giving her house to Félix Chevrier and his wife, while she went with her mother to live in the primary school in Chabannes with the Paillassou sisters; the Vichy police searching for Roger Cerclier, who was the head of the Creusois Resistance maquis in Chabannes; the villagers’ efforts to safely hide Cerclier; the living conditions and scarcity of food; making and repairing clothing; the generosity of farmers who ensured the Jewish children were fed; the OSE staff, including M. Jablonski, who also lived on her farm, and Dr. Meseles and his wife Ida; how there were no Jews in the area and villagers aimed to help the children because they were threatened; the lack of difficultly integrating the Jewish children amongst the village’s own children; and her son, who was born in 1939 and attended nursery school for several months with the children of Chabannes.

Oral history interview with Madame Du Petit Magneux

Oral History

Madame Du Petit Magneux, born 1913 in the commune of Saint-Pierre-de-Fursac, describes the difficult conditions during the war years; sheltering a Chabannes child in her house, Boris, who was 14 years of age; selling milk to the Chateau for the children; Fèlix Chevrier, who came to purchase milk for the children and frequently harvested mushrooms in the village; the general acceptance of Chevrier by the villagers; and the politics of the region in the 1930s, 1940s, and after the war.

Oral history interview with Jean Michaud

Oral History

Jean Michaud, historian, discusses the socioeconomic and political environment in general terms of the Creuse Department before and during WWII; statistics concerning the Jews in the Creuse before and during the war; official statistics in June 1943 that list 2762 Jews in the Creuse, of which 1088 were French-born and 1570 were foreign-born; the unreliability of these statistics given the number of forged identity cards; how at the signing of the Armistice, Jews fled Paris and its suburbs, some headed for the Creuse where they had relatives; the July 16, 1942 roundup in Paris, after which more Jews fled to the Creuse, but were unwelcome by the authorities, since they lacked the city and arrondissement formal/legal authorizations to leave and were forced to pay a 1500 franc fine (this was equal to the salary of an experienced teacher at the time); how most foreign-born Jews came from Poland and were of modest means, trained as tailors, butchers, etc; how the French-born Jews came mostly from Paris’ 3me arrondissement, while others arrived from Lille; the Creusois, a predominantly rural population living in small villages and hamlets and were tolerant of the Jews; the antisemitism in France, which was fueled by the far-Right press in Paris, papers which were not available in the Creuse; the Creusois gendarmerie functioned under the Pétain regime until June 9, 1944; the local gendarme, which was part of the local population and was not, therefore, prepared to vigorously enforce the Vichy decrees until August 26, 1942 when roundups of foreign-born Jews began in the free zone; one occasion when there was a roundup of 91 adults, who were taken from their homes in the Creuse and deported to Germany; the September 1, 1942 ordered roundup of 33 foreign-born Jewish children to be taken from the chateaux of Masgelier and Chabannes, and then to the Rivesaltes transit camp; and how 13 of the 33 from Chabannes had been saved by Félix Chevrier, and six had escaped the roundup at Masgelier, owing to help from the local population and gendarmeries.

Oral history interview with Georges Loinger

Oral History

Georges Loinger, born in Strasbourg, discusses the history of Jewish organizations during World War II and their need to cooperate with the Vichy government; the growth of the Resistance in Toulouse as they organized to find shelter and food; the emergence of the “Armée Juive” which at its formation consisted of half a dozen students linked to the scouting movement and aimed to create a network of houses for Jewish refugee children similar to OSE (the organization was anchored on the scouting principles to organize, provide manual labor skills and in the context of the Resistance, to militarize the youth); meeting in Toulouse at the end of 1943 with various Jewish organizations discussing their respective activities and how to link together to form a viable Resistance network; the power of the French militia which could recognize immediately foreign-born and native-born French Jews and their key role in arresting and deporting Jews; the role of Jews in the French Resistance movements; his view that the French citizenry ultimately turned against Pétain and the Nazis; the acceleration of roundups and deportations; the censors placed in the post offices; his activities smuggling Jewish children to Switzerland via Annemasse, with the full cooperation of Monsieur le Maire Duffaugt [SP], and the importance of his physical education training to prepare the children for their escape to safety; visiting Chabannes regularly to establish a physical education program so that the children would be prepared at any moment to be smuggled out of France; and the role of ORT (organization for rehabilitation through training) within OSE and its existence in every OSE school to teach manual trades to the Jewish refugees so they could become electricians, masons, farmers, etc. after the war.

Oral history interview with Albert Osina

Oral History

Albert Osina, born in Paris, France in 1929, describes his Polish immigrant parents, who arrived in France in 1923; his and his parents’ French citizenship and being largely safe from deportation until the end of 1943 when the decision came to deport French-born Jews; his time spent in the Masgelier OSE children’s home with his sister for a year and a half; his transfer in July 1941 to Chabannes, where he would ultimately spend five years; the deportation of his brother from the Creuse region and Fèlix Chevrier’s subsequent decision that Osina should not return to school in Chabannes; being sent to work in a leather goods atelier; the contrasting conditions in the Masgelier and Chabannes schools; the more stringent rules in Masgelier and the absence of contact with the local population, which was the opposite experience in Chabannes; categories of Jewish children, including French citizens from Paris, German refugee children who arrived before the war without their parents, and German refugee children who came with their parents; the strains between French-born Jewish children and German Jewish refugee children in Masgelier, where the sentiment was initially pro-German notwithstanding the political situation; his memories of Félix Chevrier; and daily life in Chabannes (Osina shares photos during the interview).

Oral history interview with Anatole Zylberstein

Oral History

Anatole Zylberstein reads from a text presented to him by the filmmaker Gossels, describing memories of children’s behavior at the Chateau de Chabannes, written by his father Zitta, who was a teacher at the Chateau; the fears of the children and the conflicts amongst some children and teachers; the arrival of Philippe Chevrier [probably Felix Chevrier] and the changes he brought to life at the Chateau; his vague recollections of life at Chabannes; the kindness of Philippe Chevrier; the relative contentment in the school; not having contact with the villagers in Chabannes; various people in the Chateau, including Denis [no family name], Norbert [Bikales], Michel Razimofsky [PH], Gérard Glass [PH], and Raya [no family name]; his departure from Chateau along with eight other children circa the end of 1943 and beginning of 1944 by train to Switzerland; the parents and other school personnel fleeing at the same time; being awakened at 3 am and given forged travel documents (his new name was Sicar); being relocated to a school where they integrated quickly; living with a host family (Lacombe); and receiving regular mail from his mother.

Oral history interview with Ruth Keller

Oral History

Ruth Keller, born in 1928 in Vienna, Austria, describes her arrival in Chabannes on January 2, 1941 at 12 years of age; staying in the Château for a two years, with two summers spent with her mother in Montpellier; her father’s arrest during Kristallnacht; her family’s departure for Belgium in 1938 and later to France, where her father was interned first in Gurs and later in Les Miles (near Avignon); falling very sick with diphtheria after a diphtheria shot and hospitalization; the OSE visiting in the hospital and suggesting to her mother that she be transferred to Chabannes in 1941; being separated from her mother and father for the first time; the deportations of both her parents; her devastation in the in early days at Chabannes; village life; her early years at school; conditions at the Château; working in the garden; the diversity of the children’s backgrounds; the fundamental role of Félix Chevrier at the Château; her evacuation to Switzerland by Georges Loinger in 1943; life with a Swiss family; and the importance of OSE in hiding and financing the safekeeping of Jewish children throughout France. (She reviews scrapbooks with memories of Chabannes and recalls cultural and sports activities.)

B-roll, stills, and supplementary footage

Oral History