- June--
- 13.
- 13 in Seattle, Washington, and I'm talking with Pavel Fuchs.
- Fuchs?
- So let's say Fuchs.
- Yeah.
- Americans say Fuchs.
- Americans say Fuchs?
- Yeah.
- German or Czechs, they say Fuchs.
- I'm used to saying Fuchs.
- Fuchs.
- As my name, I say Bloch.
- Bloch?
- And people say "Block."
- Block, yeah.
- They sometimes spell it as C-Q or C-K.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Tell me, Pavel, a little bit just of your background.
- Where were you born in Czechoslovakia?
- I was born in Prague in 1937.
- In 1937.
- Mm-hmm.
- So you're two years older than me.
- I'm two years older than--
- Yeah.
- I was born in '39.
- And what sort of family background did you have?
- My father was a structural engineer, like myself,
- engineer.
- He was construction.
- And he was very active in Jewish community before the war.
- And he was very active after the war too.
- He was always on the Jewish community board of directors,
- and he was president of Jewish community in Bohemia
- and Moravia, and the first Jewish community in Prague.
- And in 1968, when the Russians came,
- he was the president of Jewish community
- in Bohemia and Moravia.
- So there was a different president for Slovakia.
- We were never really a religious family.
- We were-- what do you call it--
- assimilated Jews.
- But still cultural.
- Culture, yeah.
- Unfortunately we never made it to the West
- before Hitler came to Czechoslovakia.
- Actually, my father had a ticket, ready tickets, bought.
- And I think he was supposed to go from Italy, Trieste.
- And I think we, two weeks before we were supposed to go,
- the Germans came.
- That was around the beginning of March--
- March 15.
- 1939.
- Yeah.
- Hello.
- Hello.
- This is my wife, Vera.
- I'm going to stop it for a second.
- Yeah.
- And so we missed that last possibility
- to leave Czechoslovakia in 1939.
- Hitler came in March 15.
- So it was too late.
- And then, you know the history, and so on.
- Yes, of course.
- So very soon--
- I remember I was little--
- even when we were in Prague, we have
- to wear that yellow David Star.
- And we couldn't go on a street car.
- You couldn't go in the front.
- You have to be in the back, and so on.
- You couldn't go to movie houses, or--
- I remember, we had a very good friend of us,
- Mrs. [? Filipovic ?] was her name.
- She was not Jewish.
- She was Catholic.
- And she used to come and pick me--
- I switch the coat, and picked me up,
- and we went to a swimming pool.
- She dared to take me swimming pool,
- or parks, or public places.
- She was really nice to me.
- That took a lot of courage.
- Yeah.
- Still, about three years ago, when
- I was the last time in Czechoslovakia, I met her.
- She still remembers.
- But when I was little--
- she's probably now 70-something.
- She still remembers those days.
- Oh, that's wonderful.
- Do you remember when your family got the order to go to TerezÃn?
- Yeah, I was six years old.
- And--
- When was it?
- 1943.
- Oh, '43.
- '43, spring.
- Our transport was DK--
- D like Dana, K like Kris--
- K. I was number DK 11.
- My parents were 9 and 10--
- DK 9, DK 10, and DK 11.
- And so I remember, yeah.
- I think you said you're going to meet my best
- friend there was Sommer,
- Rafi Sommer.
- Who at that time he was named Stephan Sommer.
- Stephan.
- Stephan.
- Stephan.
- I guess they changed--
- well, he-- they immigrated to Palestine-- maybe it
- was already Israel, in 19, I think, '48.
- You don't know his mother?
- I know her.
- I do know her.
- She live-- she taught and live in Jerusalem.
- Yes, yes.
- No, no, no.
- I met her.
- I met her in England in '86.
- I think already then she was living in London.
- And I've only spoken with him once on the telephone,
- and I hope perhaps I'll be able to meet him.
- I've heard him perform.
- He's a wonderful cellist.
- Oh, wonderful.
- And he was in Seattle, and he played for us.
- Sure.
- He's very--
- Was that the first time you had seen him in all those years?
- No.
- He came one time, I think, 1964 to Prague.
- And he has uncle.
- And then, when I was leaving for US, I stop in London in '69--
- 1969-- stayed in his apartment for a week in London.
- And then I saw him again, and we met again in '80 or '81.
- And then he was here too, because he
- was on a concert journey.
- And he--
- Now does he have a family?
- He was divorced.
- Oh, yeah, I know--
- But he remarried about three or four years ago, maybe
- a little longer than that.
- Probably five years, yeah, five years, he remarried.
- Yeah, yeah.
- No, I'm going to be seeing her, and sitting just like this
- with the tape recorder finally.
- Yeah, ask him about me, because--
- Oh, I will.
- --he'll say, oh, yeah, I know "Pavlik," he said.
- It's like a nickname.
- Best friend.
- We always played and everything together, interestingly.
- Yeah.
- And going back to your notice that you had to go to TerezÃn,
- didn't--
- it was a knock on the door, as so often, at night?
- Some people that I've spoken with
- said that late at night, 11:30, 12:00, there was a knock,
- and the Germans came, and gave a printed kind of piece of paper.
- I don't recall.
- I don't remember those things.
- But I know we were supposed to be--
- we are supposed to deported east several times,
- transport, but somewhere, my father was able--
- To postpone it.
- --postpone it.
- Ah, yeah, because 1943, it's already quite late.
- Right.
- Uh-huh.
- Yeah, it was the 1943 spring, it was, yeah.
- And so since it was late, and already well
- into the war, what was normal life
- like as a young Jewish child in Prague at that time?
- Was the curfew already in effect?
- Oh, yeah.
- Oh, yeah.
- But, yeah, I mean, between '40--
- I think--
- Between '43?
- Uh-huh.
- In '43, before we were deported, yeah, there was curfew.
- And your life was so limited.
- Did you go to any of the--
- But they moved us to not where we lived before.
- As I can recall, there was a special district close
- to synagogue, that moved to a Jewish district,
- where we lived in one apartment.
- And did you have any contact with the Jewish orphanage?
- Because I've spoken with people who--
- Oh, yeah.
- --had their parents.
- But they went there, and they were cultural--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- You mean an orphanage in TerezÃn?
- In Prague.
- Oh, in Prague.
- In Prague.
- No, no, no.
- But in TerezÃn, I remember I was there several times,
- and stayed there for a while.
- Yeah.
- Now did you-- so you went to TerezÃn together
- with your parents.
- Right.
- And were you allowed to stay with them
- or were you immediately separated?
- Time to time, time to time I stayed time to time.
- I was with a group of other boys.
- In a Jugendheim.
- Yeah, Jugendheim.
- In Jugendheim.
- That was [INAUDIBLE].
- The girls were 410, I think.
- I don't--
- In TerezÃn there's this central--
- Yeah, there's a central garden.
- --garden park.
- Right.
- And then there's a church.
- Right.
- And then the girls' home was on one side,
- and then the boys', I think just over on the other.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- It's right here.
- There are these two books, if you would like to look at them.
- Yeah, the poetry book, of course, I have.
- I have it also in Czech and also in Hebrew and also in English.
- Right.
- This one I don't know if I've seen.
- Have you ever seen this one?
- Oh, yeah.
- That's even with the record.
- I'd love to find it sometime for myself.
- I mean, it's way out of print.
- It's from the '60s.
- Of course I know this book.
- I have photocopies just of the musical parts.
- Yeah.
- And it's probably impossible to find that today.
- Is it really?
- Yeah, because it was published in the '60s.
- See, I said to my father, who wrote one chapter.
- Yes.
- Yeah.
- Mm.
- Just this side.
- Didn't my father write a chapter in here.
- I don't know, Pavel.
- I don't think so.
- Here, here.
- He did?
- Oh.
- 300, Jack Fuchs.
- Yeah, 300.
- Uh-huh.
- Well, I don't know if it--
- I've never-- I don't know if it exists in Czech.
- I've only seen this.
- Yeah, it's in Czech.
- I suppose it must be.
- Yeah, this must be my father.
- He was engineer.
- 300, let's see.
- I don't know.
- Must be him.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, in spring of 1945, they started building gas chambers.
- So he was involved--
- Yeah.
- --as engineer.
- Yeah.
- In 1943 they started.
- Should be-- who is who here.
- It should be my father somewhere too, because--
- Yeah, you have F--
- Here.
- That's my father.
- That's your father.
- [BOTH TALKING] huh?
- Yeah, since 45 years, he held the post
- of vice chairman of the Council of Jewish Religious Communities
- in the Czech region.
- Well, this is old, but he was--
- Pavel Haas, of course, the composer, was from Brno.
- I know his daughter.
- She's exactly your age.
- I think she is two years older than me.
- She's still living in Brno.
- I overheard you talking about Stephan.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Stephan, I see him.
- I know his mother, and I'll be seeing her
- in two weeks in London.
- I want to see him.
- I never really sat to talk with her at length as I will
- this time.
- If you ever see Stephan, [INAUDIBLE] for us.
- I well.
- I know him, of course.
- I never knew that he was Stephan.
- I know him as Rafi Sommer.
- Raphael Sommer, yeah.
- He's very nice.
- And I've heard him perform.
- He's an excellent cellist.
- Yeah, he had a concert.
- He probably told you.
- He had a concert here.
- And it was very beautiful concert.
- Interesting.
- In TerezÃn, children today.
- Yes.
- And here's my name.
- Well, here's--
- Is this a list of all children who survived?
- Some of them.
- Somewhere I saw my name.
- Here is-- I was in Prague.
- It looks like [INAUDIBLE],, his lecture at [INAUDIBLE]
- University in Prague, Paul Fuchs-- they call me Paul
- there-- is a construction engineer,
- a structural engineer.
- And there's some young people, but they were teenagers,
- and probably you didn't have contact with teenagers.
- There was a young, very talented violinist
- named Pavel Kling from Brno.
- Well, I don't know him.
- And there was a boy from Prague called Robert Dauber, whose
- father was very famous, Adolf Dauber, conductor
- of light music, and arranger.
- Dr. Karel Weiss.
- Yes.
- Do you know him?
- He was in Prague.
- He was there.
- He's a medical doctor.
- And then Lauscher--
- Oh, Lauscher I met.
- He died a few years ago.
- Yeah, his daughter.
- Him or Mrs. Lauscher.
- They were--
- I met his daughter.
- He was living near the museum in the apartment
- with the daughter.
- It was--
- It was their English teacher, huh?
- Yes.
- It was actually quite interesting, because I--
- it was--
- I don't know which trip it was.
- Second, third.
- And I spoke with Dr. Galski, who also was the president
- of the community for a while.
- And he said, you must contact Lauscher.
- It was the last night before I was leaving.
- And I called him up.
- And he said, oh, he said, you have to come very fast,
- because I'm 85 years old.
- [LAUGHTER]
- So I went.
- I took a cab.
- But afterwards, I just walked back.
- And it was just--
- Oh, she died.
- Yeah, I didn't meet his wife, but his daughter was there.
- And he showed me a lot of things he had collected,
- much of which he gave to the TerezÃn museum in Israel.
- And he had been in Israel in the 1930s.
- The same as-- well, I mean, he was, of course,
- among the Jewish authorities in TerezÃn, Jakob Edelstein.
- Edelstein.
- Yeah, there's a very good book about him recently, written.
- It's a lady named Ruth Bondy.
- And she wrote the book, which is now translated and published
- in America as well.
- But it's not just a book about Edelstein, though it is that.
- It's really a book about the Czech Jewish community
- from the '30s until the war and after.
- And Edelstein, of course, went back and forth
- to Palestine a lot.
- But he just felt that he had to stay and see what he could do.
- And of course, that was the end.
- So that--
- I tell you one story.
- Another story--
- No, no, no.
- Sit, sit, sit, sit.
- It's OK.
- Yeah, I have to tell you one thing we started talking about.
- I was very little.
- And there was first play in my life I ever seen was Brundibár.
- Brundibár.
- And it was so famous, that play.
- I don't know if it was-- because I was little.
- I don't know if it was opera, operetta.
- It was a little opera.
- It was an opera.
- I know it was his name, Krása.
- Krása.
- Hans Krása.
- Hans Krása.
- That's who wrote it, yes.
- I don't know from--
- I remember there's a scene of it.
- And because I was little, and I didn't know, because--
- I don't know if you have seen it.
- But at the end, close to the end, this kind of wall around.
- And the kids-- the bigger than me kids were sticking heads,
- I don't know, from the wall.
- Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
- Just a minute.
- From the wall.
- And I couldn't figure out what they did.
- I remember after, when it was over, I went kind of around,
- and found there were little benches.
- Yeah.
- I did.
- Yeah, they were standing.
- Well, they were standing, and they're sticking just head.
- And because they were high.
- And all that happened.
- Anyway, the songs.
- I remember those songs very well.
- Can you sing something you remember.
- Yeah.
- There was one song.
- You know Brundibár, I don't know what I can tell you,
- but how you call English-- that the English name for it?
- It's the organ grinder.
- Organ grinder?
- Or it's also called hurdy-gurdy man.
- Oh, Czech was-- it called [NON-ENGLISH]..
- Music grinder?
- Organ grinder.
- Organ grinder.
- Or hurdy-gurdy.
- It's the name of the instrument.
- Anyway, it was-- yeah, I remember, of course,
- song one of-- his song was--
- [SINGING IN CZECH]
- It was English, you know that, "All you kids be quiet.
- This is my Reich, my empire.
- This is my beat.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- He, I govern myself like a king, me, the music-- what do you
- call-- organ grinder.
- Brundibár.
- He was scaring kids.
- And then another one was--
- and I don't know if it was a play, from directed
- or in TerezÃn, because these songs were
- very popular after that.
- The other song was, is two kids were singing.
- Sorry.
- I don't know how it was exactly.
- [SINGING IN CZECH] I'm afraid of Brundibár,
- but he's sleeping now.
- I don't know how the song goes on.
- And I remember the finale, because they were--
- Let me hear you sing the-- what do you remember of the finale,
- because I have a surprise for you.
- Um --
- [SINGING IN CZECH]
- Or something like that.
- We won it--
- Yeah.
- --because we didn't give up.
- Yeah.
- Let's listen to this.
- I'm going to play you something.
- This was a slow passage.
- It goes-- I don't remember, but this was a very famous song,
- because everybody--
- The children were singing it a lot?
- Oh, yeah.
- That's what I remember.
- It was just only--
- Did you see it only once, or several times?
- I don't remember, because I was probably--
- I think it was on 1944, or something like--
- In '44.
- In '44?
- You know the history?
- I don't know.
- It was-- well, it was done--
- I don't know where.
- It still was being done in '44, and it was filmed--
- not the whole thing, but the finale was filmed--
- Yeah, for Red Crosses.
- For the Red Cross.
- And that was all propaganda.
- And that was August of '44.
- That's right, for the propaganda film.
- But I never saw that movie.
- When did you leave the ghetto?
- In '45.
- Oh, you stayed till the end.
- Yeah, till the end.
- OK.
- So that was around August of '44.
- '44?
- Yeah.
- Now--
- So I don't-- as I was seven--
- So you have a good memory.
- Yeah, but I don't really--
- what did you ask me about, whether I--
- Whether you went several times or just once?
- No, I don't--
- I do know-- I think I got--
- I cannot say if I--
- I probably went once.
- I'd say it once.
- Here is a--
- I'd say one.
- --point it to the light.
- That's the children who were in the audience.
- Maybe someone you know.
- Put it against the light.
- You'll see it better.
- Well, I do remember this.
- Here, if you want [INAUDIBLE].
- No, this is fine.
- Thank you very much.
- It might be too strong without milk.
- Yeah.
- I was too little.
- So there are bigger kids, bigger kids, much bigger
- than myself, playing in the--
- But Rafi, I mean, Stephan was in it, and he was six.
- Was he in--
- Yeah, he was the sparrow.
- I didn't know.
- In fact, he is in that picture.
- Is he?
- He's in this picture.
- I might--
- Rafi was in Brundibár?
- Absolutely.
- I don't remember--
- Absolutely.
- I don't remember--
- Oh, I don't know.
- This might be him.
- I'm not sure.
- If you see on the slide, it's much clearer.
- This is just not a good reproduction.
- But for sure he was the sparrow in Brundibár.
- Was he?
- Absolutely.
- Mm.
- Oh.
- I don't know about that.
- Yeah.
- But that was a very famous play by--
- you know the story, but basically, they--
- I think Brundibar was collecting money, right?
- Yeah, of course.
- Of course.
- And there-- and there was a little boy and a little girl.
- And the mother was sick.
- And they want to--
- Doctor said she has to have milk,
- and we have no money to buy milk.
- So they went to the town, and here is Brundibár.
- He's getting money.
- So they began to sing.
- They said, we can also get money.
- But he beat them up.
- And so all their friends and the animals came and helped them.
- And they all beat up on Brundibár and chased him away.
- And in the finale, they sing that if we all get together
- we can overcome the evil.
- And of course, under those circumstances for the children,
- it just had so much meaning.
- This thing was done more than 50 times in the ghetto.
- Oh, I cannot say this.
- Some children went away, and then other children had to--
- actually the girl who played the sister, her name
- was Greta Hofmeister.
- She's in Jerusalem now.
- She has another last name, but some--
- Let me play you now--
- That was those children, most of whom are not alive.
- Yeah.
- See, I use a song.
- Sure, sure.
- Yeah.
- Not exactly know the words, but fine.
- When you sang it, it was obvious that you know it,
- and you heard it, and you remembered it.
- Yeah, that's a finale.
- Yeah.
- See, I was telling you.
- It's hard to hear this, in a way, to see it.
- It's so moving.
- And I appreciate your sharing your memory of it.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- I'm sure it's not easy to talk about.
- Well, it's a long time ago now, 46 at this time.
- Getting close to 50 years.
- Yeah.
- And I still remember the finale.
- As I said, it was--
- you remember.
- Everybody remember that song.
- Some of the songs I don't remember anymore,
- but there were three songs, from there I
- just still I keep it in my head.
- I never--
- Have you ever heard me singing those songs?
- No.
- Yeah, I heard it, the word Brundibár, right near the end.
- Was there any other music, Pavel, that you heard,
- young as you were?
- Did you attend any concert or--
- they had outdoor concerts in the park--
- Yeah, I don't--
- --including jazz concerts.
- Yeah, I don't--
- You don't remember.
- And there was also--
- I remember one day.
- I remember one day on the big plaza, or whatever,
- you know, square.
- There was a big kind of-- the day when the Red Cross came,
- the Swiss Red Cross came, the day that there was a--
- but I really-- that day I remember, because the music
- play on the square.
- And we were all marching there.
- Oh, and so you saw that outdoor stage--
- Yeah.
- --of wood.
- Yeah.
- I'll show you a picture of it.
- Yeah, but because-- well, I didn't ever seen
- this book you have.
- But there was outdoor something.
- And then music.
- And in front of the Nazis.
- And we were marching in front.
- Yeah.
- I'll show you exactly a photograph of that.
- Here it is.
- 66.
- That's it.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Something like that.
- If I'm not mistaken, that building, which
- is a long building-- it goes up that street--
- was one of the Jugendheim for the boys,
- because the church was here.
- Right, I know where the church-- the church was here.
- Right.
- And of course it was a square, and the streets went around.
- And there was a big wooden fence.
- I didn't really know about that fence
- until Tom Linder told me about that fence.
- And the Jews had to go on the sidewalk.
- And only the SS could go on the street next to the trees.
- But on that time, with the visit of the Red Cross, of course,
- everyone was out, and being filmed, and so on.
- Yeah, I remember that day when the Red-- the Swiss Red
- Cross was coming.
- And was it Ancerl who was--
- Ancerl also was-- yeah, Karel Ancerl.
- Yes, sure.
- You know Ancerl--
- He went to Prague after the war.
- I didn't realize that.
- No, Ancerl-- my dad knew him.
- Karel Ancerl, he was in TerezÃn.
- He was in Terezin.
- Yeah, he was.
- He was organizing there the music.
- I think he went to Auschwitz from there.
- He did go to Auschwitz, on the last transport.
- The last transport, Karel.
- But he survived.
- He survived.
- Karel Ancerl--
- That was just before the end of the war?
- Yeah, he went, I think-- and the last big transports
- were in October 1944.
- And most of the big went--
- In October 1944.
- And most of the big musicians went at that time.
- And he went.
- And I don't remember-- probably he's written in that book,
- so he may say.
- But he probably went to a labor camp.
- Yeah, Karel-- Karel Ancerl, yeah.
- Because he was a conductor after the war.
- Oh, yeah.
- Yeah, he was--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- --he was number one number one in National Symphony.
- That's right.
- And then he went to Australia, and then he
- went, finished up in Toronto.
- And he died in Canada, in Toronto.
- In Toronto, in the '70s, I think.
- Yeah.
- Actually, in that same film, there
- is a performance of him conducting
- his string orchestra, a piece by Pavel Haas.
- And you see Haas goes up, and he takes a bow.
- And Haas didn't survive.
- Ancerl was a very-- he was a big musician.
- Was going to-- yeah.
- Karel Ancerl.
- I have actually some recordings from the 1930s from the--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- --performances-- yes-- of the songs of Jaroslav Jezek.
- Jezek, yeah.
- Oh, Jezek.
- OK.
- I love those songs.
- And when I get together with my Czech friends in Israel,
- they're singing and dancing, and I'm playing--
- Yeah, but Karel Ancerl started with Jezek.
- That's right.
- He's conducting some of those recordings.
- And that was in this liberated theater.
- How do you call it?
- The--
- Osvobozené divadlo.
- That's right.
- Right, right, right.
- And Karel Ancerl started, yeah, started with Jezek.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- But I was saying--
- I didn't know.
- I look at the book when you show me Brundibár.
- There was somewhere that--
- he was at-- I don't know if Hoffmeister--
- Hoffmeister wrote the--
- He wrote the libretto of Brundibár.
- Brundibár was not written in TerezÃn.
- it was written in 1938 in Prague for a contest.
- It won a prize in a contest.
- It was performed only for the first time
- in the Jewish orphanage in Prague in 1940, just
- with piano-- not with orchestra.
- And when Krása got to TerezÃn, somehow he didn't bring
- or he lost the orchestra score, and he made another arrangement
- for orchestra.
- And that was, of course, what we hear.
- Even, in fact, in this finale, there
- was a trumpet part in the beginning.
- I know the man, Paul Rabinovich.
- He lives in Copenhagen. He was playing the trumpet in that.
- And that was not the first time that Krása
- worked with Hoffmeister.
- In 1935 they--
- Hoffmeister made a play for that theater,
- and Krása did the music for it.
- It was called, in English, at least, Youth in the Game.
- Youth in the Game.
- And I have that music, actually, and that play.
- Did you remember anything of Karel Svenk?
- Were you aware?
- Maybe you were too young.
- Karel Svenk?
- Yes, He also was in that theater in Prague.
- He was very young, in his 20s.
- And he made some Czech cabaret music in TerezÃn.
- No, I don't recall.
- There was one song-- let me stop this.
- No, he went away and didn't come back.
- But I have some songs which I think he wrote before the war
- and then left with somebody in Prague.
- All in this kind of Jezek.
- Yeah, that song became very popular.
- Sorry, I don't know.
- I was--
- You were too young.
- You were [BOTH TALKING]
- Usually, when Ruth is singing it, and there
- in TerezÃn who were old enough in the audience,
- they're singing--
- Yeah, I was too young, so I don't recollect--
- Oh, of course.
- Of course.
- I would lie to you if I said, yeah, I know.
- Sure, sure, sure.
- No, I wouldn't know this.
- Sure.
- How aware were you as a youngster
- of what really was going on, and why that you were there
- in such a place?
- I think I had a limited awareness, you know,
- what was happening.
- I knew there-- we were a lot couldn't --
- 6:00 is when you arrived?
- No, I didn't--
- 6:00?
- Oh, I thought I heard you say--
- No, no.
- --6:00.
- I was aware there was outside world,
- but I exactly didn't understand many things.
- I remember there was outside, and my parents
- were telling me that we are going to get a package.
- We were expecting a package.
- So I remember that.
- And I think we got that package eventually,
- which was a pears fruit.
- What's it called, Alexandra?
- Alexandra pears?
- Pears.
- Pears, pears, Alexandra pears.
- And because there was a lack of salt,
- they came also salt in the package,
- and unfortunately, I remember well
- that it all got smashed together, salt and the pears.
- But we ate it.
- What happened-- I don't know exactly
- because I realized there was outside world because it
- was kind of smuggled in by drivers, truck drivers.
- Czech truck drivers came inside and just delivered.
- And probably it was under his seat or somewhere.
- Or I don't know.
- I guess so because it was smashed.
- So that's what I say I realized there was outside world,
- but I didn't--
- I didn't understand reason behind.
- I was not a very Jewish or non-Jewish--
- no.
- Do you have any memories of--
- education of the children was forbidden.
- Right.
- But it was done in a kind of a secret way
- through games, and theater, and singing.
- And one of the main ones-- what was his name?
- Fredy Hirsch.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Do you remember some of those activities?
- I remember a little bit.
- As I said, I--
- somebody else taught me how to write and read, Mrs.
- [? Loescher, ?] lady.
- She helped me to read write because after I was eight
- years old, when I got out--
- and I started writing were the third grade.
- So I didn't go to first and second grade.
- I started in third grade, and I was able to--
- in public schools, and I was able to catch up easy.
- I don't think-- in third grade, my grades were not really good,
- but probably 2 or 3s, so 3, which is Cs in America.
- But fourth grade I was all right.
- So anyway, so just to point out-- yeah,
- there was some education.
- They taught me to write and read a little bit.
- But I'm sorry.
- I don't exactly remember.
- I apologize with all these digging questions.
- No--
- I think sometimes something triggers a memory.
- But there was not really a school,
- but they showed me how to write and read.
- Do you remember in this informal education
- and when you went with your parents
- but during the Jugendheim?
- Yeah--
- Anyone coming to sing with the children?
- There was some people who came and actually taught songs,
- and the children sang them together.
- Do you remember anybody coming ever to teach
- and having you sing like a little chorus?
- One was a young man--
- Very, very, very little.
- This was in Jugendheim, which was--
- right.
- But I remember very--
- again, very, very little.
- There was several people who came.
- One was actually a well-known singer named Karel Berman.
- Yeah, of course I know Karel Berman.
- You know Karel?
- From then or from after?
- I think he was about 23 or so.
- Yeah.
- I remember him there a little bit because--
- I don't know him personally, but I think he's still alive.
- Oh, yeah.
- He's still alive?
- He came back to Prague, and he finished the Academy
- and he become a national artist.
- Yeah, he's in--
- He's still singing.
- He's still singing?
- Still singing.
- He's a bass-baritone, isn't he?
- Yeah, yeah.
- He would be quite old now.
- He's about 71.
- Is he?
- [BOTH TALKING]
- He had a heart attack, but he's-- and his wife was killed
- in a car accident.
- But he's doing very well.
- He's doing very well.
- And as a matter of fact--
- I don't need to record myself saying this.
- --in different places.
- Yeah.
- And that will be very moving, very moving.
- And now there was another young man
- who came named Gideon Klein, extremely good-looking,
- about 23 years old, tall, I think.
- I haven't seen a picture of him standing,
- but very good-looking.
- I mean good-looking like a movie star.
- And he went-- he might have taught
- more songs to the girls in the makeshift Jugendheim
- than the boys.
- He was a fabulous pianist, and--
- I think-- I don't remember.
- I maybe I remember Karel Berman.
- But, as I said, it was--
- It's so long ago.
- --40-something-- 40-something years ago, 47 years ago.
- So I cannot recall--
- the thing which really got really stuck in my head
- was Brundibar and some other things, but as I said,
- I learned somehow how to read and write, but a little bit.
- When you-- you say sometimes you did get together
- with your parents.
- Right.
- In their living quarters?
- In their living quarters, yeah.
- Were they able to be together or were they--
- They were pretty much, I think so, able to be together.
- Yeah, once in some-- once in a while, I was with my parents.
- And then what do you remember about the liberation?
- The Russians came.
- The Russians came.
- Well, I was in pretty-- pardon?
- I think that --
- I was pretty good health, well, compared to--
- so and my father already was liberated.
- The next morning, early in the morning,
- they closed the camp because there was--
- --typhus.
- --typhus, you.
- You know there was typhus.
- Because there was typhus, they closed the camp.
- My father get me right away with the closing the camp,
- and there was a hole in the fence.
- And early in the morning, we sneaked out through that hole,
- and right next--
- very close-- I remember the Russian soldier.
- He was probably like standing by the wall here, some 10 meters,
- 12 meters from us.
- Well, he saw us sneaking out, but he intentionally
- heads the other way so--
- Not to see?
- --not to see us.
- And so we got out before--
- And also your mother?
- No, no.
- She didn't.
- She was not well first.
- And I-- no.
- And so she stayed there--
- I don't know-- for a couple of months more.
- Yeah, it was a while.
- Because it was typhus.
- I think it was brought from--
- I remember part of Terezin was for those people who came,
- I think, from Holland.
- There was a group from Holland.
- Holland?
- Yeah, Holland.
- And how did you get back to Prague?
- Well, I got-- we walked, or somebody picked up on the road,
- and we went to the train station and got on the train.
- --got on the train.
- Do you remember coming into Prague
- after those several years?
- Yeah.
- I remember-- and right away, my father took me--
- get me to some--
- as I said, Mrs. Filipovic was one lady.
- She helped me during those years.
- So he went to those Filipovic, and they sent me
- to a little village.
- And I stayed there, and there were some people
- who took care of me very good.
- And then there was, of course, from US
- and from Jewish Congress came money, and we all went to the--
- what's it called--
- [NON-ENGLISH] I don't know how they call it, Czech.
- Health care?
- Health care.
- It was especially-- it was a kind of [? castle ?]
- I think in Prague.
- No, no, no.
- In--
- [BOTH TALKING]
- Yeah.
- What's his name?
- And then another-- and then I spent another three, four
- weeks in Bohmerwald.
- Some well-known Czech film director had a nice cottage.
- Or it was-- like castle.
- His name was Cap.
- And I stayed with his friend.
- And after that, I have another story.
- After the war, the first time I went to see a movie.
- It was a Czech movie, terrible movie.
- Anyway, my mother sent me to go and get tickets,
- and she didn't tell me what was a good tickets but tickets.
- So I'd never been to a movie house before, so she sent me.
- I went to get a ticket, and they asked me what kind of tickets.
- I say, I want row one, number one and two, looking like this.
- Yeah, so I want the side because I
- thought the best tickets in a movie house
- were number one and two.
- So we got really--
- it was-- I remember my mother was complaining to me
- because there was a newsreel.
- We used to have newsreels at the time.
- I don't know here, but that was before the movie.
- Yes, of course.
- Here, too.
- Here, too?
- Sure, sure.
- They show the president of Czechoslovakia, which
- was Dr. Benes coming to Prague.
- And I told Mom, oh, I didn't know Dr. President has
- such a skewed--
- such a poorly-shaped head, because it was so crooked.
- Yeah.
- Anyway--
- There's one other person I wonder
- if you might have remembered.
- She was actually-- her name was Ilse Weber,
- and she was a nurse in Terezin--
- Yeah, I--
- --in charge of the infirmary for the children who weren't well.
- And she very often sang songs and accompanied herself
- on the guitar.
- And she had a little boy, Tommy.
- Tommy Weber.
- Tommy Weber, yeah.
- And her husband was there.
- They had an older boy who was, I think,
- nine years old when they sent him on a Kindertransport
- to Sweden.
- He survived.
- And Tommy and his mother went voluntarily with the father
- to Auschwitz.
- They went to the gas chamber but not the father.
- And Tommy must have been--
- he should have been your age more or less,
- maybe a few years older.
- Tommy Weber?
- Tommy Weber, yeah.
- I have a picture.
- You can see the picture of him.
- Is he--
- He's in the book.
- Where does he live?
- Well, Tommy died in Auschwitz.
- But--
- Hanus lives in--
- You said he went to Switzerland.
- Yeah.
- No, to Sweden.
- He's a television director.
- He lives in Sweden.
- This is Hanus, and this was Tommy.
- This is before the war, 1939.
- Oh.
- This is Hanus.
- This is Hanus, the older one.
- Very nice picture.
- Yeah.
- And he--
- He survived?
- He survived.
- And the husband survived, Willi Weber.
- And she was a poet, and actually, she
- was active in Prague before the war, producing radio programs
- and publishing children's books.
- And she did-- her poetry was usually written in German.
- Very nice picture.
- Yeah.
- Very nice picture.
- And actually, she wrote down melodies for seven
- of her songs, and she used to accompany herself
- on the guitar.
- There's even a drawing of her with the nurse's uniform.
- I think I may remember because I got really sick one time.
- And did you have to go to the infirmary?
- Yeah, I was in the infirmary.
- Well, you might have--
- she usually-- I think she wore glasses by that time.
- I was really sick, and they found out I was--
- lack of vitamins, what they call--
- lack of vitamins, some sickness, yeah.
- And I was there for a while.
- Well, it's very likely that you would have--
- there's a drawing of her with the nurse's uniform and--
- it's in the back--
- accompanying herself on the guitar.
- Karl [? Tubb. ?]
- Karl [? Tubb. ?] He had a-- they had a son, or a child.
- I don't know if a or daughter.
- But they all went to Auschwitz.
- My father would tell you--
- It was Haas.
- That's Krasa.
- Oh, it's Krasa.
- That's Krasa.
- Now, he died in Auschwitz, didn't he?
- Yeah, yeah.
- He was a gifted composer.
- I've done-- at this point, I've produced concerts
- of Terezin music in Israel, Germany, Denmark, Canada,
- England, the United States, and I did two live broadcasts
- in Israel.
- The first was Viktor Ullmann, who I don't
- think you would have known.
- And the second was Pavel Haas.
- And I want to do one this December on Gideon Klein,
- and later-- that was a poster for Brundibar.
- Yeah, see--
- Is that what you're referring to with the heads looking
- through it?
- Yeah, I couldn't figure it out because I
- was sitting somewhere here.
- I couldn't figure it out--
- I couldn't figure out how come they were so up.
- So after the play, I went kind of around and saw they were--
- there was benches for them.
- So they were standing up.
- You were probably close to the stage,
- just behind the orchestra.
- I was very close to the stage.
- It was a little orchestra.
- It was--
- I was very close to the stage.
- I'm pretty sure.
- Yeah.
- Interesting.
- What is that book?
- That's a book--
- Joza Karas.
- He's from Czechoslovakia.
- He lives in Connecticut for many years.
- That's the first book in English about Terezin music.
- And we can borrow that?
- Hmm?
- Does the University of Washington--
- Yeah, I have it.
- I have two copies at home.
- I just-- but I brought it--
- This one is-- you can borrow from the university?
- I think that-- I don't know.
- I don't know.
- I have to--
- I have to just find out.
- This is--
- I think--
- This were--
- This copy is from the library, yeah.
- From University of Washington Library?
- From the University of Washington Library, yeah.
- There should be a way that you can--
- usually, you have to be affiliated with the university,
- but--
- well, I believe it also came out in paperback.
- It came out in 1985, this book.
- 19--
- --85.
- But if you're interested, I'll try to see about--
- [INAUDIBLE] because we can go to the bookstore
- and ask them where we can buy that.
- They could order it, yeah.
- I know the first edition--
- Well, I've never seen that book.
- I can-- listen, I will write down for you a number
- of details of various things, and if you're interested,
- I would be happy even to--
- I could send you, actually, if you like, ,
- a cassette of a whole performance of Brundibar.
- Would you like it?
- Sure, sure.
- [INAUDIBLE] I can go to Walden book store.
- I can send you a whole cassette of the whole opera, Brundibar.
- [INAUDIBLE]?
- Yeah.
- Well, I've never heard it.
- This is the first time I've heard--
- Yeah.
- I'll send you-- I have a tape of a performance
- that was done by Czech children in, I think, the 1960s.
- It's really quite good, really quite good.
- Except they're looking very sad.
- And there was a lady there.
- She lives now in Israel.
- She was an actress.
- Her name was Vashta [? Sunova. ?]
- And she has another name now in Hebrew.
- But she said-- when she saw it, she said,
- the children were very happy when they did it.
- But she had the impression that they told these Czech children
- later that it was a very sad story, so they looked very sad.
- But it's musically very nice.
- Today, I had the meeting on Mercer Island
- in the Jewish Community Center because I'm planning
- for the year after next.
- I'm suggesting, at least, a whole series of Terezin events,
- music events here, and the theater guy
- was very interested to do Brundibar.
- Is he really?
- Yeah.
- Probably in English, I suppose.
- And so I hope that it will come to pass
- because it's a very nice piece.
- And I think for children it would be really meaningful,
- really, really meaningful.
- But I can send you some things, and in fact, I also
- brought for you just one thing.
- It will give you an idea of what I do.
- This is a program from one of the recent concerts.
- This was in Portland.
- We had concerts this year in--
- So you knew in the ghetto that they
- were trying to do the Requiem?
- Yeah.
- I don't know if-- yeah, I read about it,
- and I think maybe even after the war
- because I remember they were always trying to put choirs
- together, and half of all the people
- were shipped to Auschwitz or went East.
- There were choirs of boys also.
- I think that Karel Berman conducted a choir of boys,
- and some of those composers made arrangements of folk songs.
- And there, of course, was--
- probably you were too young to know about the coffeehouse.
- Or did you know, maybe?
- No.
- No.
- It was on the side of the square.
- Today, it's a restaurant.
- And old people could go there once in a year for two hours
- if they had a little paper ticket.
- And there's two drawings of that coffeehouse.
- One was by a Dutch artist named Joseph Spier.
- And of course, he had to draw like that because the Nazis
- told them to draw like that.
- So his drawing is very elegant, and there's
- waiters with trays of drinks, and the people
- are wearing suits, and there's a beautiful grand piano
- on the stage, and all of that.
- But that was the false picture, and another artist
- named Bedrich Fritta.
- He made the drawing which--
- actually, it's in the book, and it's really
- the true drawing of it.
- Let me just find it here.
- There really was a coffeehouse, and they
- had some kind of muddy ersatz drink, no cake or anything,
- and it's 148.
- And you see in the eyes of these poor people--
- but at least they could close their eyes
- and imagine maybe that they're listening to music on piano
- or whatever.
- It's really a pitiful picture, but that's real, and of course
- the SS standing outside.
- That was the famous fence--
- That went--
- --always separating the park.
- Oh, OK.
- Yeah, I remember--
- You must have seen that fence.
- Yeah, I've see that fence, yeah.
- Yeah, so it's--
- Right next to it was--
- next to it was the headquarter of--
- of SS was right next to it there.
- I think so.
- Maybe.
- Yeah, I think so.
- And actually, there's a photograph here of--
- this is a drawing of Fredrich Weiss.
- He was one of the best jazz players in Czechoslovakia,
- clarinetist and saxophone player,
- and here's a photograph--
- here he is-- of the Jazz band-- it was made late,
- I think around spring of 1944--
- called the Ghetto Swingers.
- And Martin Roman had come early in '44
- together with the famous German Jewish actor and director.
- What was his name?
- Kurt Gerron.
- He was with Marlene Dietrich in Der Blaue Engel in 1930.
- They came from Westerbork concentration camp,
- and it was the-- commander at that time was Karl Rahm.
- Yeah, I remember Karl Rahm.
- Well, he was until the end.
- He was what?
- Karl Rahm was the commander of Terezin way to the end.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Because he was hanged.
- That's right.
- That's right.
- And he told them to make a real German cabaret.
- And he told Martin to make American-style jazz
- arrangements for the visit of the Red Cross.
- His name was Rahm?
- Rahm.
- Rahm.
- Rahm.
- Rahm.
- R-A-H-M.
- Rahm, R-A--
- --H-M.
- Rahm.
- That's right.
- He was the commander, but they hang him.
- In 1946, they caught him, and he was hanged.
- Yeah.
- Well, it's some story, all of this.
- I don't think I satisfy you--
- No, no, no.
- You'd be surprised.
- You go back, and you listen to this,
- and there's a little something here,
- and a little something there.
- Maybe just looking back now, you were a child.
- If someone asked me such deep questions
- about my own childhood, which was not
- problematic in that way, of age six
- I don't know how much I really could remember.
- This why I think--
- But looking back as an adult, how
- would you evaluate just that experience,
- as a young Jewish, largely assimilated child but
- aware that you were Jewish, who's
- suddenly found in that position, and went through all that,
- and then eventually got liberated?
- Do you have any kind of philosophical--
- Well, first--
- --reflection?
- --I'm really-- I'm very, very selfish,
- but I'm really glad that I survived because I don't know
- how many children--
- in that book, how many children--
- 13,000 children.
- And probably 100--
- --survived?
- Pardon?
- About 100 survived.
- I don't know.
- Hundred.
- So it's very selfish to say, I'm really happy
- and glad I was among those who survived.
- At that time, I was not really aware what would
- happen if I would go East.
- There was-- yeah.
- And my parents was just really kind of--
- I think it was a huge strain for them,
- not for me, realizing any time you can be called in
- and something can happen.
- You'll be gone.
- There was one occasion where nobody
- knew what was going to happen.
- All the people were sent was to [NON-ENGLISH]..
- It was a place where all the--
- everyone, all the people, young, old, had to get out.
- And it was a day and night event.
- I remember that one.
- They were counting all the--
- counting all the kids.
- I read about that.
- Pardon?
- It was all day.
- They went back at night.
- Right, day and night.
- And they put us--
- I remember they put us all together,
- and we were surrounded by dogs, German shepherds, and SS.
- And nobody knew what was going to happen,
- if we were going to march somewhere or something.
- But then we got back.
- So looking-- I have no really good answer for your question,
- but we suffered.
- I suffered in some respect.
- But on the other hand, I have to say,
- there is no permanent damage.
- It didn't cause any permanent damage to my life.
- If I would say that--
- not mentally, never mentally damaged.
- I think health damage.
- For example, after the war, they were
- afraid I have very poor teeth because at six of age,
- I didn't have enough vitamins.
- I got the excellent teeth.
- I am in good health.
- You were just a very lucky person.
- I was lucky person, and I cannot say--
- probably the older people--
- they got really bad memories.
- I don't have good memories.
- I have a really sad memory.
- But I am not bitter.
- I am not-- simply, I don't think it really affected my life.
- I have a few of those can say that.
- Yes.
- Well, I think, in a way, to be able to feel that,
- is probably, in a way, even luckier, crazy as it sounds,
- than just the fact that you survived
- because so many people physically survived
- but have had the exact opposite, have terrible problems.
- And their children have inherited terrible problems.
- It's a really big, serious thing.
- Yeah, I think, but it had to be influenced with your parents.
- Yeah, maybe--
- --to let that something really bad was happening or they just
- didn't bring memories back to you that people are suffering
- because some people even here--
- they just strive on that.
- They live still in the past.
- We know some people.
- They talk about it, just cannot forget, and it's been 50 years.
- Yeah.
- That's what-- we went to one time--
- personally, don't like to go to meetings
- where they talk about--
- they were sent to camp and so.
- I went by accident to get one, and he talked.
- And I think he talked every time they get together
- how he lived-- where did he live in somewhere in Germany,
- how was the train, and every detail.
- He talks about it all the time.
- Yeah.
- But some people feel the need to talk.
- Yeah, it was really a secret.
- Sure.
- There were plenty of-- there were plenty of people actually
- who didn't want to talk.
- And they suffered.
- And they suffered, but because they felt
- that nobody really wanted to hear it at all,
- and it's a fairly recent--
- I think maybe-- well, by now maybe 20 years or so.
- I have friends-- the lady who sang that song,
- and she was in Auschwitz for a year
- and a half and terrible stories.
- I won't go into it.
- And she had, of course, a number.
- And her children were born in Israel,
- and she said they used to ask her, what is this number
- And she said, well, it was so during the war
- we wouldn't get lost.
- And it was only later--
- and now since then, actually last year, she
- took those grown children and their wives
- back to Czechoslovakia, and they went to Ostrava,
- where she was from.
- And they went to Auschwitz, and to Prague,
- and all those places.
- And even when they went around and they
- saw all of this, one of her sons-- he's a dentist.
- He said, Prague is not Czechoslovakia.
- It's all this outside that I'm seeing, these small places.
- That's really the Czechoslovakia.
- And so finally, at the urging of her family and friends
- and for the sake of her grandchildren,
- she has written and published, first in German now in Hebrew,
- a book that's a kind of historical autobiography.
- But I sort of feel and understand this,
- that people don't want to talk.
- Pavel never says too much.
- He doesn't talk about it unless you ask him
- and put it out of him.
- But we never talked about it.
- Our children don't know too much no.
- Petra, I think, talked to you once about it.
- Robin once in a while.
- But no, they don't do much about because he never
- talks about it himself.
- Look, a little different subject,
- you know, most of the Jews and Czechs
- were assimilated Jews, like my father.
- In certain-- certain people, I mean, even right after the war,
- before the war, to be Zionist was not
- very favorable, you know, thing or whatever
- ideology for many Czech Jews.
- They were-- including my father, they're assimilated Jews.
- They were Jews, Jewish.
- But first they were Czech.
- And they were proud to be Czech.
- I think that's the reason my father didn't leave.
- Because he-- a lot of those Jews who
- went to Terezin or somewhere, they felt, here we are, Czechs.
- As a citizen, we have to stay with our people,
- with the nation and fight or help and stay with the rest.
- Still, a lot of those people, after the war half of them
- went to Palestine in 1946.
- I mean, I'm sure a lot of Czechs in 1946, '48.
- But still some, including my father--
- Stayed.
- --stayed.
- Because they felt were proud to be Czech, which is--
- that's all right, you know.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Well, I've had-- some of my friends told me,
- including George [? Hartmann, ?] that the reception they got
- back, he and his brother--
- especially with their striped pajamas, that's all they had,
- they came back, they were on trolley car--
- was not exactly welcome, not exactly welcome.
- And I had some people who told me that he said, you know,
- you really shouldn't imagine that the Czechs were
- antisemitic.
- He said they weren't.
- No.
- But I've had other of my people who came back
- and they said, don't you believe it.
- He says that was not so, not so.
- So you see, it's so hard to get the picture.
- Look, I have a colleague.
- He's a Dutch historian and he's doing
- a PhD in Utrecht University.
- And he's doing the propaganda film, really research
- on the propaganda film.
- And he said he had two people standing,
- looking at the same picture of a group of people in Terezin.
- Both of them were 200% sure that was me.
- [LAUGHS]
- So in all of these respects of memory and accuracy
- and attitude and evaluation, you just have so many opinions.
- Yeah, I think one thing--
- my feeling is, in general, Czech people were not antisemitic.
- Mhm.
- No.
- There's a difference in Poland or Russia,
- but not in Czechoslovakia.
- They have no pogroms in--
- Well, I mean I grew up in Seattle.
- Now I never, never in my life experienced
- any antisemitism whatsoever.
- I had two occasions.
- Once when the mother of a friend and once
- when a student in high school said something, but, again,
- not to me.
- It just came out, just kind of figure of speech,
- and they immediately apologized.
- Mhm.
- I never.
- But if I'd grown up in New York, or on the East Coast,
- it could have been very different.
- Mhm.
- Well another thing is the first president, Masaryk,
- he was pro-Jew, very.
- Oh, yeah
- He was.
- I know.
- You know, there's a kibbutz named after him, Kfar Masaryk.
- Oh, yeah?
- Oh, yeah, yeah.
- He always was very proud of those Jews.
- He used to call them, I mean, from what I've read, "my Jews."
- He went and he visited them, I believe.
- Well, I don't know whether in Czechoslovakia after the war
- there really were very little Jews.
- Very few?
- Very few Jews.
- Well, that's another thing, is because lot--
- If you don't--
- A lot of Jews were lost in the war, lost their lives,
- were gassed or something.
- Yes.
- I love--
- The very few who came back, probably at least half,
- Left for Palestine.
- Left for Palestine.
- Anywhere.
- They either went to--
- Sure, between '45 and '48.
- Yeah.
- So very few are left.
- And now, truth is, I don't know how many are there.
- It's very old.
- I think very old.
- Those who identify with the Jewish community, not talking
- religious or not, but just say that they are Jews,
- about 1,000, I'm told, in Prague and probably more,
- probably more.
- And interesting phenomena, that a number
- of non-Jews in Prague and families
- have become Jewish, very interesting.
- And they're very active.
- They're very involved.
- Tell me, when you came back with your family,
- did you go to your apartment?
- No.
- But my mother had apartment building she owned.
- My father was an engineer.
- He was contractor.
- He built that apartment.
- And apartment was empty because SS men lived there
- with the family.
- So we got that apartment.
- Oh, so you got it--
- oh, not where you had lived, but in the building which
- they owned?
- No, in the different building, different building.
- But-- pardon?
- But this building was built by the apartment
- Right.
- I understand.
- But before the war, we lived in different apartment.
- But yeah, we get a nice apartment SS left.
- Yeah.
- So we got an apartment.
- Yeah.
- That's a strange experience.
- Maybe I'll play it for him.
- Start it again.
- [LAUGHS]
- [INAUDIBLE] We had a kind of wooden box made up.
- I don't know how.
- And we used to sled in it.
- And it was outside stairs, which were covered by snow and ice.
- And we used to go in that box down there,
- sledding down those stairs.
- This was Terezin?
- In Terezin.
- In Terezin.
- You didn't know him in Prague before the war?
- No.
- You met in Terezin?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And one time he hit the tree and hit his head, hit the tree
- and broke his nose.
- And I remember blood was all over him and crying.
- He was almost half of the nose carrying in his hand, crying,
- we are together.
- And I think he still have a scar on the nose there.
- But I remember that really well, when he broke his nose.
- It was bloody.
- But no, we were so good friends.
- Right after the war, we moved to the same apartment building.
- We lived on the same floor, across from me.
- And we were best friends after the war
- till he left for Palestine.
- And I remember that when we got bigger,
- I think it was 1947, say we were about 10 years old.
- And they were in our apartment building.
- It was one older boy.
- And when is it, Nicholas?
- December 5th or December 6th?
- There is a tradition, Saint Nicholas.
- He's dressed up.
- And he goes from house to house.
- And behind his angel--
- And a devil.
- --and devils.
- And [? Stefon ?] and me, we volunteered.
- And this time, it's a Catholic big Catholic event
- celebrating Saint Nick.
- They don't celebrate it here.
- Anyway.
- And I remember he was a devil and myself,
- we were in same group, devils.
- [LAUGHTER]
- Probably he was 10 years old.
- Wow.
- What was the symbolism of the devil and the good angel?
- Well, the whole idea of that celebration
- is that Saint Nicholas comes and brings--
- an angel helps to bring him for good children some good.
- And devil is behind.
- And if child is not good, the devil
- could try to do something, to take him to hell or whatever.
- I don't know.
- I think there's a lot of such things
- in many different cultures.
- Yeah.
- I think they celebrate Saint Nicholas
- in Austria and Germany, too.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- But we have a--
Overview
- Interviewee
- Pavel Fuchs
- Date
-
interview:
1991 June 13
- Geography
-
creation:
Seattle (Wash.)
- Credit Line
- United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
3 sound cassettes.
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Fuchs, Pavel.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch donated the archive of Professor David Bloch to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in 2012.
- Funding Note
- The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 09:37:19
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn558979
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Archive of Professor David Bloch, musicologist, founder and director of the Terezin Music Memorial Project, and Israeli institute devoted to the documentation and study of music and music making at the Theresienstadt concentration camp in the former Czechoslovakia and at other localities under German occupation during the Second World War.
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Uri Bas discusses his musical family; the beginning of the war; being sent to the Terezin ghetto on one of the first transports when he was 13 years old; playing the violin and even continuing music lessons in the ghetto, especially harmony; hearing the music in Terezin played in different venues; a song that stayed with him over the years which is a ballad about a pirate [he sings some of it in Czech and reads his translation in Hebrew]; the music in evenings in the ghetto beginning at the end of 1942 to 1943 and which was dedicated to performances and musical entertainment, including cabaret evenings; and being sent to Auschwitz in the fall of 1944, when he was 16 years old.