- Would you be willing, if I knew when, I wouldn't have them
- away from you, absolutely not.
- But if I could say from then now on Thursday at 3:00,
- or I don't know, whatever, that's
- the time that you could bring them in, they would photo them,
- and then you just would take them.
- Would that be possible?
- I could explain to them also that these two
- are behind glass.
- They would do directly above.
- If they can do it Wednesday, I'm going to Dr. [INAUDIBLE],,
- which is just above [INAUDIBLE].
- You would take it with you?
- Is it directly in. the [INAUDIBLE]??
- Did you want to do it now?
- Well, I'm leaving next Sunday, unfortunately.
- Normally, we don't go-- or if you want to take them yourself,
- it's fine.
- But I'm going to a podiatrist right there.
- In the village?
- Well, it's just above the village
- where the McDonald's are.
- Well, we can make some arrangements.
- So I can take it with me and just have it photo as you say
- and just take it home.
- That's exactly-- I mean, that's how it should be.
- Yeah.
- Because I'm in constant contact with the people who have
- the Terezín museum [INAUDIBLE].
- It's on a kibbutz called [NON-ENGLISH]..
- Uh huh.
- And I know these people.
- And they have hundreds and hundreds of slides of
- [INAUDIBLE].
- And that's really the most efficient way.
- Because from a slide, you can make a print.
- Yeah.
- And these are probably quite not known.
- The artist--
- Probably are.
- --I mean, she's known for sure.
- Yeah.
- And this one I don't know, nor this.
- And you never know, it might be one of the only ones surviving
- of that artist.
- So it really would be wonderful to share.
- Mhm.
- Yeah.
- We could do that.
- OK.
- So when we finish talking, we'll make an arrangement to.
- No problem.
- Fantastic.
- Yeah.
- No problem.
- Yeah, yeah.
- OK.
- Let's go back up.
- OK.
- Oh, this picture of Prague.
- Yeah.
- Oh.
- Oh, of course, sure.
- Yeah.
- In the old town.
- Yeah, the old town.
- Up to the palace.
- But you see this is something like 1850.
- Because the castle is different.
- You see that's the old castle?
- Yes.
- They just finished the tower, but not the two front.
- But wait, this is the cathedral behind it?
- Yeah.
- That's the cathedral.
- And nowadays, they have the two towers here somewhere.
- Mhm.
- That's the Baroque tower.
- Right.
- And this is the Charles Bridge.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Well, I know that quite well.
- And nowadays they have two towers here,
- which they actually added in the old style.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Are you going back to Prague again, you did say?
- Well, I'll be again in September.
- Hmm.
- I've been actually--
- Say it again.
- You know Rudi Freudenfeld?
- Yeah.
- You knew him personally?
- Yeah, I know him very well.
- Before the war?
- Interesting.
- He was her cousin.
- Uh huh.
- And I'm sure--
- [INAUDIBLE]?
- Yeah.
- Oh.
- And I think he is still alive.
- Yeah.
- Isn't he?
- I haven't heard that he is.
- And so it didn't occur to me to look.
- I am sure it's the Freudenfeld I am thinking about.
- He survived.
- He went back to Prague.
- And he became a teacher.
- Yeah.
- And he is cousin of [INAUDIBLE].
- Well, they know [INAUDIBLE]?
- Yeah, he spoke with her.
- I spoke to her on the phone.
- And I gave her--
- I'll give you her address.
- Yeah.
- And she said to me, [INAUDIBLE].
- [LAUGHTER]
- Did you write to her since?
- I have sent her a little card to her, birthday.
- Yes.
- And well, didn't get anything back.
- I don't know if--
- She would certainly-- I mean--
- It may have arrived or not.
- But anyway, this Rudolf Freudenfeld, I think,
- is the cousin of hers.
- Uh huh
- And they were living actually together in one apartment.
- Because for a while she was not married, and so on.
- And there was a shortage of apartments.
- Yeah.
- And actually, it was not too far from the dormitory
- where I lived in Prague when I was studying at the University.
- So I visited them from time to time.
- They had, I think, one son and a daughter.
- So I remember them well.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- [INAUDIBLE]?
- Yeah.
- [INAUDIBLE] you know?
- Yeah.
- Our dormitory was in [INAUDIBLE]..
- And there was another street next to it, two streets rather.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- So you went to the [INAUDIBLE]?
- No, I went to the technical, [INAUDIBLE] in [INAUDIBLE]..
- Technical university.
- Technical university.
- We studied-- well, with my wife, yeah, architecture
- and construction.
- I see.
- So it was nice to study architecture in Prague.
- I'm sure.
- I'm sure.
- So this Rudi Freudenfeld, how old would he be?
- Well, he was about, what, 20, 24 at that time.
- He was a young man.
- He must have been a young man [INAUDIBLE]..
- Could be [INAUDIBLE].
- I'm only surprised because [INAUDIBLE],, the man who
- wrote the book about his music, the only book so far
- in English, interviewed many, many people,
- went twice to Prague.
- He was from Prague himself anyway.
- And he quotes from some memoirs.
- So I don't believe.
- I have to check.
- I believe that he--
- I am prepared to believe that if he was alive, that he wouldn't
- have got to him.
- Because people would have known.
- But--
- Well, next time you get to Prague--
- Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
- --find out.
- Yeah.
- Because I know that they were living together.
- Maybe he died in the meantime.
- I know a lady in Brno who today--
- her name is [INAUDIBLE]--
- but she was in Brundibár.
- She was probably about 15, 14 years old, singing.
- I know a lady in London who was an actress.
- She was also in the play of Esther.
- Uh huh.
- She was Vashti, queen, first queen.
- And of course I do know some relatives
- of some of the musicians, some of the composers.
- For example, I don't know, you probably
- weren't aware of the pianist and composer Gideon Klein.
- He was 23 or so, an incredible, incredibly gifted young man.
- Mhm.
- So his sister Eliska Kleinova was actually
- a few years older [INAUDIBLE] in Prague today.
- And then there was Pavel Haas.
- He was the most gifted pupil of [INAUDIBLE]..
- And actually you'll see on the film
- when Karel Ancerl, the conductor conducts
- a study for string orchestra, the last portion of it
- in the propaganda film.
- And you see Haas sitting in the audience in the front row.
- And then he comes up and he takes a bow.
- And of course, shortly after, they all went to Auschwitz,
- although Ancerl did survive.
- So I know Haas' daughter.
- His wife was not Jewish.
- He divorced her in order to save them.
- And I know his daughter, Olga Haasova [INAUDIBLE]..
- I didn't know Ancerl [INAUDIBLE]..
- Well, he was in Terezín.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- [LAUGHS]
- Because he was Jewish.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, he was, for sure.
- He was for sure.
- Let me show--
- This is one.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- I don't know that one.
- [SINGING]
- Bum pum pum pum pum pum pum pum.
- Pum pum da dee da dum.
- OK.
- I know a different--
- Da da da da da da da, pum pum pum pum de dum pum pum.
- Oh, they have even different accent, you know.
- Yes.
- [NON-ENGLISH]
- OK, yeah.
- That's close to that.
- That's different.
- Yeah, I remember that.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- [NON-ENGLISH] That begins differently, though,
- not [NON-ENGLISH].
- That's a different version, I suppose.
- I can't pronounce it.
- [NON-ENGLISH]
- Every region has a little variation, a little variation.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Another one is--
- Did they translate it for you?
- Not yet.
- Not yet.
- Would you translate it for me?
- Absolutely, yeah.
- It's kind of silly.
- Oh, just say it in English.
- I'll be delighted.
- This is Slovak.
- And I don't know what [NON-ENGLISH] means.
- Yeah, wait, let's get this.
- Amy--
- The Fox walk along whatever.
- [NON-ENGLISH]
- [NON-ENGLISH] would be--
- [NON-ENGLISH], would it?
- --shrubs or in some water.
- Anyway, the fox--
- [NON-ENGLISH] is the fox--
- walked along something, some kind of a forest or something.
- Forest path, maybe?
- Maybe.
- I think so.
- I'm not sure about the Slovak word.
- And a hunter, after--
- A hunter, yes, from German.
- Yeah.
- --he tried to get the fox.
- But he got a girl named [? Mariska. ?]
- And he killed her, [? Mariska. ?]
- Oh.
- And [? Mariska ?] is lying--
- well, they say on a hill there.
- And in my version--
- they say [NON-ENGLISH].
- And in my version, [? Mariska ?] lies on her tummy there.
- And she's burned out.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- That means there dead.
- And she's dead.
- She's dead.
- I think these are true ones, some kind of a hunter.
- Oh, yeah, in the Middle Ages, just went into the woods
- and tried to kill a fox.
- And there was this girl.
- Oh, my.
- Oh, my.
- Now, this one, actually, he put--
- and I have a beautiful recording of it--
- to now-- how do you say it?
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- Oh, yeah, the tower.
- I have a recording of this, that the tower, the spire of--
- [NON-ENGLISH] But I cannot sing anymore.
- So that's the problem.
- That was really good.
- Yeah.
- Can you-- the first verse, I know, actually.
- OK.
- The [NON-ENGLISH] tower, it's very tall.
- Right, right.
- And well, in English, you say, there
- was a wild goose who flew on the tower and over her.
- Pardon?
- Over it.
- Over that tower.
- Over the tower, and then says--
- it's just like a parabola or something.
- Yeah, this one, actually, I have, Johnny, take your gun
- and shoot the goose.
- Yeah, right.
- Right.
- Shoot the duck.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- That man.
- Shoot it.
- Yeah, shoot it back.
- Well, [NON-ENGLISH].
- Oh, aim your rifle.
- Aim.
- Aim your rifle--
- Aim your rifle.
- Right, I remember.
- --on the tower.
- Aim it on the tower and get the--
- Shoot the duck.
- --goose-- goose.
- Goose.
- And he did.
- He shot the goose.
- He did it twice.
- Farewell my lover.
- 100 times.
- You--
- Cheated me?
- Cheated.
- You cheated your girl.
- Yes.
- And farewell 100 times.
- That's right.
- That's right.
- Go away.
- Yeah.
- And actually, I can play you on the tape
- over here a few things--
- Oh, yeah.
- --a performance of it, just the first part.
- And then Gideon Klein took that melody
- and he made it the theme of the variations movement,
- second movement of his string trio.
- Oh, nice.
- Was very beautiful, very beautiful.
- Here's another one, which is from a choir piece.
- And that was [NON-ENGLISH].
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- I know.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- Well, there's 100 versions of--
- oh, do you know that one?
- It means--
- No, not yet.
- --we walk along the village, up and down, up and down.
- And we wake many girls for--
- I mean, it says for their moms.
- But I mean, we just wake up many girls as we walk.
- And let's see.
- I'm not sure about--
- it means, we wake them up.
- We wake them up like a rooster when he flies off his--
- Roost.
- And then says, the rooster flies.
- And he sings very merrily, get up, my girl, get up.
- The sun's rising.
- Get up.
- Get up, my girl, if you are asleep because all the boys
- from the village, [INAUDIBLE],, whatever,
- came over to wake you up.
- So you better get up.
- The boys from [INAUDIBLE] or [INAUDIBLE],, what
- would be the name, [INAUDIBLE],, they
- have black horses-- what's the English name for black horse?
- There's a name.
- Well, there's a name in Czech.
- Anyway.
- Yeah, a black horse is a black horse.
- Yeah.
- I don't know.
- Well, we don't say black horse, we say this certain word.
- And I don't know what it is in English.
- A black stallion?
- A black stallion?
- Black is [? cerná. ?] But black horse, it's a [CZECH]----
- different word.
- It just means-- and I know, I asked someone in English.
- There's a special word.
- Anyway, they have-- those boys from [INAUDIBLE]
- have black horses, nice, very thin shirts,
- and nicely embroidered.
- They were, apparently--
- Yes, peasant shirts.
- --prime boys.
- Yeah.
- And again, they say, nice, thin shirt
- was sewn by a seamstress who sew it with a silk
- thread in a green grove.
- When she embroidered the shirt, she was smiling or laughing
- happily.
- But when she gave it to me, she was crying very sadly.
- Yeah.
- Which I think the whole--
- it's not all.
- Yes.
- It has another--
- I know, there should be more.
- --verses.
- And I think he was recruited for the army.
- Oh.
- That's why she was so sad.
- And that's what it wants to tell.
- Yeah.
- Well, this one, he made also for-- all of them
- for a four-part male choir.
- Oh, that's a lot of work.
- Yeah.
- Now, he was born in Prague?
- No.
- He was born in--
- is there a town in Moravia Plerov?
- Oh, in Prerov.
- Prerov.
- Prerov.
- Prerov.
- Yeah, but anyway, he was Czech then.
- Oh, yeah.
- But he studied at university, Charles University.
- And this is another one.
- Yeah, this one.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- It's about Mr. God, right?
- That's right.
- We would like the God to love us.
- But that's a-- that's a Christian, actually.
- Yeah?
- We used to sing this in a church.
- Yes?
- Yeah.
- We don't want anything, except the same thing
- all the time, that the God loves us.
- That's all.
- And that, again, we wish the God loves us.
- We wish that he--
- [NON-ENGLISH] he forgives our sins.
- Forgives our sins.
- And let us go to heaven.
- We don't want anything else, except the same,
- that the God loves us.
- But I consider this like we had it--
- I'm a Protestant, not a Catholic.
- We had it in our singing book in the church.
- So this is not actually.
- But it-- for such--
- actually, such a sentiment, wouldn't be very surprising
- that even Jewish children would know it.
- Yeah, yeah, no, I-- that's true.
- But it's not like it's for--
- Especially under such circumstances.
- It's very general.
- It's nothing--
- Yeah.
- --specifically Christian in it.
- Right.
- That's true.
- Right.
- Oh, [NON-ENGLISH].
- Oy, you have all my favorite songs.
- Yeah.
- Let me see if that's the one which is--
- is that the one?
- No, no.
- Wait a minute.
- This is just-- these are the folk songs.
- Oh, yeah.
- They're just for--
- No, here's the beginning woods.
- --for a choir.
- Is this?
- Yeah.
- This is it.
- This is the one.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- Oh, you know it?
- Boy.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- He says, [NON-ENGLISH].
- Well, that means someone who has a trumpet.
- Well, do you have this one translated?
- It means-- it's, again, from the times
- when they were recruiting young boys.
- Maybe they gave them something to drink, get them drunk,
- and then he says, they're already bringing my horse.
- They are already putting the saddle on it.
- And the trumpeteers are what--
- trumpet?
- How do you say they're--
- Blowing.
- --blowing.
- OK.
- And it's long, long, long again.
- They're bringing my horse.
- They are putting the saddle on it.
- Well, it's the first one.
- OK.
- Stop.
- Stop putting the saddle on my horse.
- Stop the blowing.
- Stop putting the saddle on my horse.
- I have to say farewell.
- First, I have to say bye-bye to my mom, who brought me up.
- And then secondly, with my girl, who loves me or who loved me.
- Thank you very much, Mother, for your care.
- And thank you, my girl, for your love.
- That's all.
- It's a very nice song.
- Yeah, I love it.
- Yeah.
- Oh, we used to sing with my mom, like in double.
- I was the--
- Yes, in harmony.
- --yeah.
- [NON-ENGLISH]
- And of course, this would be very beautiful--
- That will be nice.
- --with all-- all of them are just
- for male voices, just tenors and bass.
- That will be nice.
- Yeah.
- Well, I want to make, hopefully, this year.
- I've done two live broadcasts on the evening of Holocaust Day.
- In '87, it was Viktor Ullmann.
- '89, it was Pavel Haas.
- And I hope, if I have the money, to bring
- Gideon Klein this year.
- Now, let me show you.
- Just for time, I will concentrate on the ones
- that I have.
- This one, actually, he wrote in two keys.
- Then there's one more.
- Now, this one is very interesting
- because, you see, here, it's hard to read.
- But it seems to be that the melody is this melody from
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- But the tune, the words are from this.
- Well, these are the variations.
- This is [NON-ENGLISH].
- [NON-ENGLISH]---- the meaning is the same,
- except here with the fox, it's Mariska.
- And there was hunter walking behind or after her.
- And again, he tried to aim at the fox or he aimed at the fox,
- but he hit the girl.
- Basic same idea.
- And here, the girl, who is called Mariska,
- lies on the levee.
- It's like a dike or something.
- Yes, yes.
- But here, she just--
- well, he aimed at the fox and shot the girl.
- And Mariska is lying in her blood, just does it this way,
- but basically, same idea.
- And it's combined here, you see.
- Here, it seems to be those are the words with
- the [NON-ENGLISH].
- But the melody is from this one.
- And the melody here, the melody-- just a minute.
- I have to get it now.
- Oh, wait.
- It's actually fine.
- Actually, I know this song in different melody.
- Apparently, it has a lot of variants.
- Yeah, a lot of variants.
- That's very, very typical.
- But I sit here and think.
- This one is [VOCALIZING].
- Yeah, this is more like what I know.
- But the one I know, it's different to this too.
- How was it?
- How did it go?
- [NON-ENGLISH],, something like that.
- But I don't know.
- There are so many, it seems like.
- And the last one, of course, is Russian.
- Now, I know that.
- Which one is that?
- Well, this is the one.
- I don't have the words--
- I can't.
- --because they didn't find it in a book.
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- That's right.
- And I have the old, original recordings
- of the Don Cossack Choir--
- Oh, that's nice.
- --singing that.
- It's a wonderful song.
- They just sing it yesterday on that show.
- We were watching-- what channel was it,
- some kind of a learning channel?
- I don't know.
- We got some channel where they had a performance by--
- well, the first one, this was the Polish [INAUDIBLE]..
- I don't know which ensemble was this.
- And the next one was Moldavian.
- And they had dances and songs.
- And they just invited--
- Oh, it must have been nice.
- --and went there.
- But the first one was Cossacks.
- And they were singing this [NON-ENGLISH]..
- And it's so nice because of they-- well, they were coed,
- I mean, mixed ensemble.
- And they start with a really pianissimo and slow.
- Yeah.
- And they go to forte and also [INAUDIBLE]..
- And they also make it like that.
- Oh, yeah, that's very typical.
- They go faster and faster.
- Yeah.
- This is.
- But there was no dance.
- There was just the singing.
- And the same thing, the same verse, but it
- gives it a really nice gradation.
- Yeah.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- I'll show you-- how are we doing?
- We can still leave this.
- I'll show you a few pictures now from Terezín.
- And then, of course, we lead up to--
- I'll show you the film and play a little bit of music.
- These are a little random--
- I'd better turn it all over like this.
- I made an exhibit.
- And I've shown-- actually, that's a group
- of Jewish children for the holiday of Purim
- in their costumes.
- And this was in Prerov.
- And that's Gideon Klein.
- And this man is named [? Kurt ?] [? Eliade. ?]
- Was this before the war?
- This is before the war.
- This is probably in the 1920s.
- I see.
- And in the '20s, I mean, they look about,
- what, nine years old maybe?
- Yeah.
- This is Viktor Ullmann.
- He was actually born in Tesin.
- Tesin?
- Tesin.
- Tesin, in--
- Post.
- Oh, so the Jewish bank was across the town square
- on the other side from what today is the restaurant, which
- was a coffee house?
- Yeah.
- And which at that time was?
- No, the coffee house, I'm not sure if it was open to the Jews
- or not.
- For a while, it was.
- But this area here--
- Yes.
- --on this side was behind the fence.
- The fence went like this.
- And the road, which was off limits--
- Yes.
- --was here.
- And there was a sort of a bridge.
- Oh, that's the place where it was.
- OK.
- You see, over this road, which goes here.
- Yeah.
- So the Kinderheim, the first Kinderheim--
- Yes.
- --or actually, second was here.
- And the bank was here, I think.
- On this side?
- On this side here.
- What are we looking at?
- Right.
- OK.
- OK.
- Definitely.
- Now, that explains something.
- Let me see if I have a picture of it.
- What is this and that?
- This is the [INAUDIBLE],, this kind of outdoor stage,
- which they made.
- It's the same thing that we saw there
- with the jazz orchestra on it, just from a different angle.
- Did they have a church?
- Here's the church.
- This is the church.
- You have it go this way.
- Yeah.
- And the steeple of the church is actually from the other side.
- The wall of the town was over here.
- You see, I think that's right.
- And somewhere here was the hospital.
- You see, the main sort of--
- this place here--
- Yes.
- --is somewhere here, right?
- And then there was the church--
- Right.
- --which we actually have from that picture I have downstairs.
- Yes, yes, yes.
- Exactly.
- And then behind the church was a little park, where
- they had their thing here.
- And then next to it was the hospital, where my mom was.
- Yeah, yeah.
- OK.
- Oh, they had a concert--
- That's right.
- --[INAUDIBLE].
- Yeah, this was the first performance, actually,
- of Pavel Haas he wrote for Karl Bremen.
- Karl Bremen was only 23 at the time.
- And he wrote these four songs on texts of Chinese poems.
- Yeah.
- I have a recording.
- I can play you a bit of it.
- And Rafi Schachter was the one who conducted,
- of course, the Verdi Requiem, so well-known.
- Now, that Haas was not related to our professor.
- We had a professor Haas, but he wasn't--
- he wasn't related.
- Haas used to be a fairly common name.
- That's a fairly common name.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- This is a drawing of [? Karlo ?] [? Talbot. ?] He conducted
- the [INAUDIBLE] Orchestra.
- He was a pianist.
- Yeah.
- We have a song that we do, which is called "A Yiddishe Kind,"
- a very sad song that we do.
- But here, I want to see.
- Now, here's the church, of course, from the other side.
- From there?
- Yeah.
- It's the same.
- Right.
- Here is, of course-- that's the same thing,
- looking from this view.
- So actually, the town square must be in between there.
- You see, along this street would have been the coffeehouse
- today.
- And that's facing east so that on the other side of the wall
- here is the Kleiner fortress.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- These are of course-- now, here is,
- from what I read, in this picture, the caption,
- this is the border between the German area
- and the Jewish area.
- But I hadn't known about the bridge.
- You are the first one that I've heard about the bridge.
- I can't recognize it.
- And this is the fake clothing.
- And these are, of course, transports coming in.
- Yeah.
- This is a very sad picture.
- This is a Prague Jewish apartment
- just after the family left, probably
- a German took the picture, clothing thrown here,
- and whatever they could take.
- But now, this is what-- this is important and interesting
- to me.
- This is a drawing inside the coffee house.
- We see a coffee house.
- And that's directly across.
- Now, when you say there was a fence there separating
- in that street--
- Yeah, that will be it.
- --that explains the guard there.
- Yeah, that's what you had.
- You see?
- So on the other side of that fence was the central square.
- Right.
- I have to make you a sketch.
- Say, you were in Terezín, right?
- So if--
- I have a pen.
- Here, I have it all.
- Oh, OK.
- Came equipped.
- Say, here would be the square.
- He was playing harmonica for us.
- Oh, [? Frelig ?] played harmonica?
- Yeah, I am pretty sure about that.
- I mean, accordion.
- Accordion?
- Accordion.
- Are you sure it--
- there was a man, also, I think he was called [? Wolfie ?]
- [? Lederer. ?] So you remember [? Frelig? ?]
- Yeah, he would come and play for us.
- And sort of we were singing as we were.
- Oh, that's interesting.
- That's the first that I've heard of that.
- I am pretty sure about that.
- But if you talk to her, so she may give you some details.
- I have to really go to see her one time.
- So there you have some--
- That's interesting.
- --idea.
- Yeah.
- I have this.
- There's a lot of other pictures.
- There's-- some of them are--
- well, this was, of course, the opening, actually, here.
- And that's on the film.
- You'll hear that.
- Edith thinks she can identify some.
- I'm talking to Tomas Lenda.
- It's June 10, 1990.
- Almost.
- Yeah.
- And can you tell me just maybe a little bit, are you from Prague
- or from a smaller town?
- Well, let's put it this way.
- I have been born in Pilsen, the city of where--
- I've gone through on bus.
- [LAUGHTER]
- And actually, when the Germans came,
- which I don't remember too much, to Czechoslovakia,
- I'm not sure that Pilsen was actually
- part of that great Reich or something.
- And so our family moved to a little village close
- to Prague, Radziejowice.
- Yes.
- And we lived there till 1942, I think, and so on,
- until we were moved to Terezin.
- Now--
- You went all together, the whole--
- Yeah, the whole family--
- well, we were sort of a big family--
- Yes.
- --at that time.
- And so not everybody from the family went together.
- But my parents and I went, too.
- How old were you then?
- And I was probably five, six years old.
- So you understand that I don't remember too much.
- Sure.
- And there are certainly people who remember much more.
- You may have-- well, the lady I told
- you about, Hana Fischerova, didn't talk
- to you about that too much.
- But she may remember much more.
- If I remember that, she was from the same transport
- than we were.
- Yes.
- The transports were somehow by the region
- where they collected the people.
- So we were back on BG.
- I remember that.
- Yeah.
- The first ones were AK.
- Yes, yes, who went to Terezin, the first to arrange the city,
- to have the living.
- The so-called Aufbau kommando.
- Right, exactly.
- Yeah.
- So that's how it worked.
- Do you remember when, actually, the notice came,
- or the knock on the door came?
- Or--
- Well, I don't think that a knock on the door came, and so on.
- I believe that we were just advised
- as that's the habit in those totalitarian systems.
- Right.
- We just get an information that you
- have to appear there and here at a certain time.
- So then we went to Prague.
- And the Jews were collected in a big, huge assembly.
- I think it's something what is now called a recreation
- facility of Julius Fučík.
- They may have changed the name by now, I guess.
- He was supposed to be a communist sort of hero.
- They said lately that they discovered that he was actually
- a Nazi spy or so.
- But that has nothing--
- Do you think your parents, I mean, 1942,
- it was already, depending on what time of 1942,
- I mean, it began really in the fall of '41.
- Did your parents know about Terezin?
- Had there been rumors?
- There was some rumors and so on.
- And actually, the time when we went to Terezin
- was on the Jewish new day--
- new year.
- Oh, so--
- Or in those days--
- September, probably, yeah.
- And it was a nice weather.
- My mom used to say that on the Jewish holidays
- it's always nice time, the 10 days or whatever you have.
- It's really pretty in Europe.
- It somehow happens that the weather is good.
- Mhm.
- So they loaded us in those.
- They didn't separate from your parents
- at the time of going on the train?
- No, no.
- Not in the train.
- And I think the train was even civilized.
- Really?
- You know, that were cubicles, normal train.
- Yeah, because so many recall going in what
- was really a cattle car.
- Well, that was from Terezin where
- the people went to Auschwitz, or to Poland, and so on.
- But from Prague, you know, it was sort of normal train,
- I think.
- Yeah.
- I'm pretty sure it was.
- What was the reaction when you came to Terezin?
- It's only about an hour from Prague.
- It was not so simple.
- They kept us in that Julius Fu-- or whatever.
- I think it was exhibition hall for about three days,
- maybe longer.
- And then one morning they loaded us
- on the train, which came in there.
- And so we went to Bosowice.
- Actually, at that time the train wouldn't go to Terezin.
- And so in Bosowice, we got out.
- And there was this transport.
- And we carried what we could.
- And the sort of suitcases and so on were loaded on a cart.
- And the people just were pushing the things to the city for us,
- this transport [NON-ENGLISH],, called one.
- And that was funny.
- They had those old carts, which were used actually for
- to carry the dead people.
- So that was that.
- And so we walked to Terezin.
- It was a beautiful day.
- Came in there.
- And first I think we went to some kind of-- you know,
- all of those are barracks.
- I think you went there.
- I've been to Terezin many times.
- So the family was allocated a place just
- below the roof in a barrack.
- And we lived there for some weeks together.
- And then I was taken to this homes of children.
- And my mom was educated as a nurse.
- So she went to work in the hospital.
- And she lived there.
- And my father was in business.
- Yes.
- But the last time he worked in Radziejowice, he actually
- couldn't work as a businessman or anything.
- I think he was selling textile or something.
- So he was working in a sawmill close there.
- And I think he enjoyed it.
- Or he said he did.
- So he was then in this office of transport [NON-ENGLISH]..
- Oh.
- They put him into an administrative--
- Some kind of like that.
- Yeah.
- He had some education.
- So that was OK.
- Mhm.
- And we lived there like this.
- And so you were still with your parents at that time?
- Well, I was in this Kinderheim.
- Yes, then you got to the Kinderheim.
- Let me ask, your mother worked in the,
- let's say, infirmary for children?
- No, no, no, in the hospital.
- Oh, in the hospital.
- There was a public hospital.
- Yes.
- Not specifically with children?
- No.
- Oh, for adults.
- It was just a normal hospital, you know?
- I see.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Well, after you went to the Kinderheim,
- did you still get to see your parents occasionally?
- Well, they would come every day or so in the evening.
- Yeah.
- I was quite fortunate.
- Most of the children had their parents already
- sent to Poland or so, to those extermination places.
- So that's how it was.
- Yeah.
- Do you recall anything about the--
- I mean, it's known, I think, that education as such
- was forbidden.
- Right.
- But there were many, many activities with the children.
- And somehow, in a sneaky way, through singing
- or through drama or whatever, some education came in.
- There were also arguments about whether or not
- it was appropriate under the circumstances,
- especially, to continue educating those--
- to show that in German.
- Do you remember anything about the activities--
- Well, I think that's a little bit dramatized.
- After a while, we had a normal education.
- We were living in a sort of big dormitory.
- And we had those sort of high beds.
- So it was fun, and so on.
- Now when we started, we were in a place like barracks.
- So they were those corridors around, and so on.
- We were running around the corridors.
- We were new kids, so we were harassing them, and so on.
- I was a little kid, you know.
- Uh huh.
- But then they moved us to this place on the main city square.
- I think you saw it.
- I know that building.
- [CROSS TALK] something, or Q318 or something.
- And I remember that, that we woke up,
- washed and so on, ate something.
- And then the class started.
- And we were divided into classes by some kind of abilities,
- and so on.
- So I started to school, more or less.
- And they taught us how to read and write mostly in Czech.
- Now we had some Hebrew.
- But it was not too popular.
- It was difficult. And they were coming rabbis to teach us.
- But we didn't--
- Were there any other children that you
- recall who had a little bit of Hebrew background?
- Perhaps, from--
- Well, probably.
- But you know, I was really young, six years old,
- so what did I know?
- Sure.
- And some of the children's parents were gone already.
- So it was sort of-- but I don't remember bad times.
- We were not fed too well.
- Yes.
- But you get used to it.
- Yeah, yeah.
- So more or less, we were quite well-educated.
- The lady I mentioned to you, she was a teacher.
- And so the books were there, and so on.
- [PHONE RINGS]
- And-- oh, excuse me.
- Do you recall, either in the Czech classes or the Hebrew
- classes, was there any singing?
- Yeah, probably.
- But you know, I am not a big singer.
- And I was always given the privilege
- or begged to stay away from singing.
- [LAUGHTER]
- Yeah.
- So I was sort of [? sad ?].
- Even my father was a good, say, violin player, and so on.
- I just didn't inherit that.
- So I remember those activities, and so on.
- But we really did not get involved
- in those operas and that thing.
- We were just too young.
- Yeah.
- Did you go to any performances?
- Well, we went to that performance.
- You went to Brundibar?
- We went to Brundibar.
- And we were sort of humming.
- Or I don't remember that, humming and singing that stuff.
- But really, I don't recall.
- Yes.
- I know that it was about two little children who
- didn't have milk or something.
- Right, for their mother.
- And so forth, but that's all I recall about it.
- Mhm.
- So it was popular.
- And of course, in Terezin, was the cream of the Jewish society
- at that time.
- I think Czechoslovakia had the top of the Jewish culture
- in those days.
- Yes, of course.
- So those people were collected there.
- Unfortunately, they were sent further to the Eastern
- extermination places.
- Yeah.
- But the life was pretty much high on everything.
- Yes.
- At that young age, did you have yourself,
- or did the children somehow gather together talking,
- or whatever, some sense of why you were there,
- what it was all about?
- I mean, it couldn't have seemed like a vacation exactly.
- Well, I didn't want to present that.
- It was not.
- And the mere fact that the parents of those children,
- or even my father--
- Yes.
- --were sent to extermination places,
- and that children were getting sick, and they would die,
- that was a sort of feeling which was not comfortable.
- There was such a huge mass of people in there.
- Terezin was built, probably, for 7,000 people.
- At some time, they say it was 42,000 people at one place.
- Even 60,000.
- Even 60,000.
- So you can imagine that that was not a nice feeling.
- And you could feel it.
- Then, of course, you get used to it that you see your parents.
- And I was lucky.
- I saw them almost every day.
- Mhm.
- But some children didn't.
- And so it was not quite so simple.
- Now of course you create some friendship with the children
- when you live with them every day, and so on.
- And so I can't say it was a recreational camp.
- No, I-- I-- I understood that.
- I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was.
- There are so many poems by children which have survived.
- Were you aware?
- Did you yourself write?
- I don't think I did.
- But did you ever see that other children
- did write [CROSS TALK]?
- Yeah, and you see, it gets mixed up.
- Because those poems are on exhibition in Prague,
- in Jewish Museum, and so on.
- So I saw them.
- Yeah.
- I more or less have some books about it, and so on.
- So you know, I knew about those poems,
- like, that book about butterfly, so on.
- But I can't recall that we got involved with that.
- But of course, we were writing little sort of stories
- and things like that.
- I think our story was about a free bee, not a butterfly.
- But a bee was, and you know, and how the bees live in the--
- Hives.
- --hives, and so on.
- So that was our story there.
- And I recall that.
- Because Hana, that teacher to us,
- would read to us about a bee, how she behaved, and so on.
- So that was our story.
- And I think the other children or whoever
- wrote that thing about the butterfly,
- they heard about butterfly, and so on.
- See?
- So that affected the children.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- That's how it worked.
- Yeah.
- And that went for years.
- Later on they moved us into another place
- which used to be a school.
- Was that the Sokolowo?
- I don't know.
- No, it couldn't have been Sokolowo or something.
- It was close to the outskirt of the city.
- There was a barrack just next to it
- where the Germans had their military, and so on.
- 816 or 318.
- 318, maybe.
- I don't know really.
- Were you aware of the presence of the Germans sometimes?
- Oh very well, very much, very much.
- You see, through the city was a street which
- was dedicated to the Germans, going to the commander tour.
- Yes.
- So there was a fence on each side.
- And we could cross the street only going
- on a bridge over that, and so on.
- So sometimes you would see the SS.
- And at some time, they were building the railway line,
- which went directly to the city so that they could
- load the people in the carts.
- So it was patrolled by the SS and organized.
- And once what happened, a little kid, a friend of ours,
- jumped on the train to move with it.
- And the SS saw him.
- So he hit him.
- It was unfortunate.
- But it was an episode which I remember.
- A big thing was, and I am sure you remember or you
- read about it, when they collected us outside Terezin.
- Somebody, I think, escaped.
- So all the people went on a big plain.
- And they started to count us, and so on.
- We had to go there early in the morning.
- No, I've read about that.
- And you had to stay the whole day.
- And the airplanes were going all around, so a scary situation.
- Were there are other times at all
- when you were taken outside the walls of the town?
- Yeah.
- They were occasions when we were--
- there was this crematorium.
- And all the ashes were collected in neat boxes like that.
- Have you heard about it?
- Yes.
- And so we were supposed to--
- they had too much of those boxes, I guess.
- So they were thrown, the ash was thrown into that river there.
- Into the river?
- And so we were doing that, sort of jokes,
- like, when you see my grandma, put it aside.
- Don't pass it on.
- And I am sure you know about that.
- Were you aware of, for example, outside the wall,
- even to today, there's gardening.
- And of course, we know from photos,
- especially from the propaganda film
- and of course, the people who were there,
- that there were those, probably many of the young people,
- but older as well, who went out and worked on the vegetables.
- It wasn't for the Jews.
- It was for the Germans.
- Right.
- Were you aware of this gardening?
- Yeah, well, we were aware of that.
- I think one of my uncles worked there also.
- Yes.
- So it was some kind of supply of vegetable, I think.
- Because he smuggled something in.
- And did you ever go up on the walls,
- on the sort of bastion on the ramparts?
- On some of them, we could.
- Yes?
- You see, on some of them we could.
- And actually soccer was very popular there.
- So we had a soccer place where we could play, and so on.
- Were you always in a supervised situation,
- some kind of framework?
- Or did you have any periods of time
- when you were free and even relatively unsupervised,
- but then had to come back?
- Well, we couldn't go outside the city.
- No, that's for sure, but--
- You know?
- But--
- Within the city.
- --say from the Kinderheim, parents could pick me up.
- And we would go on the [? chances or so, ?] you see,
- or my uncle would take me.
- And we would play soccer or something like that.
- So that's how I recall it.
- Now the Kinderheim, of course, since it's on the town square,
- I'm sure you probably remember this kind of wooden stage,
- a covered wooden stage that was built. Do you recall seeing it?
- And the concerts, the orchestra would sit there.
- Yeah, that was in the square.
- In the Stadtkapelle.
- Yeah.
- It was the Stadtkapelle.
- Well, I don't recall if it was before they started the Red
- Cross propaganda or if it was after that.
- But there was a little sort of thing where they played.
- But at one time, they built some kind of tents there
- and there was some kind of military
- or some production factory in there.
- And I think when the Red Cross came,
- they moved those tents away, made it a nice thing.
- And they built this Schutzstaffel,
- and so on for the time when the thing was going on.
- And I think then they put the stands up again.
- And they were producing some kind of gas masks or something.
- I am not sure what it was.
- So actually, I mean, you may not have been aware of what it was.
- But you probably heard some music sometimes?
- Oh, yeah.
- Well, we went there.
- At that time, we were living elsewhere.
- We were not in that thing.
- We were somewhere else.
- But you knew about it.
- And that was not the only place where they had that.
- They were some parts, I think, behind that church
- or what they had.
- The hospital was behind the church.
- So I could go and visit my mom sometimes in the hospital.
- How long did you stay in Terezin?
- Well, till 1945.
- Oh, you were there till the liberation?
- Oh, yeah.
- I see.
- Yeah, my father went to Auschwitz.
- I think to Auschwitz.
- And he didn't survive?
- Oh, yeah, he did.
- He did?
- He did.
- He did.
- So you were reunited with your parents.
- Well, you weren't separated, really, from your mother?
- Well, to a certain extent.
- Yes.
- But I saw her almost every day.
- Mhm.
- And of course, at that time, I was the only son of my parents.
- But they took over also a boy who was, I think,
- half-Jewish also.
- So he had to go to Terezin.
- Or I think he was half orphan.
- And his parents somehow, or his mom probably,
- married somebody again.
- So she stayed in Prague.
- And my mom adopted him or something.
- So we took care of him, too.
- Were you aware in '45, you know, I mean,
- you certainly said already the town underwent what they called
- the German [GERMAN],, this beautification--
- Right.
- --before the visit of the Red Cross.
- That, of course, was in June.
- Yeah.
- You must have been aware of what this--
- That was in June '44, was it?
- '44.
- '44.
- Right.
- And gardens and cleaning up and storefronts and making
- like a bank and all of that.
- Were you aware of that?
- And were you aware when actually--
- the visit and especially the film crew which came?
- Oh, yeah.
- We knew about it.
- You saw the filming going on.
- Well, maybe I participated in that, too.
- It was in that Sokolowo you mentioned, right?
- A lot of them were in Sokolowo.
- And that's where they made the films, and so on.
- They put us in white shirts.
- And we were watching and making the audience, and so on.
- Then we went back to our half.
- Did you see Brundibar actually at the time
- of that, all of that?
- I think--
- Because it's in the film.
- Maybe I saw it before that.
- You see, that thing was performed in a barrack
- up on the third floor.
- And on the beginning, I think it was partly illegal.
- I'm not sure if it was legal.
- Officially, probably it was, yeah.
- Yeah.
- You see, then they utilized it also.
- But originally, I don't think those activities
- were too legal.
- Well, after they made the Freizeitgestaltung,
- then it became more legal.
- And then the Germans decided it served
- the purpose of this kind of Potemkin village.
- I see.
- I see.
- But there are some parts in the propaganda film
- which you see a lot of children's activities.
- There's a kind of a circle of sand, like, a round sandbox.
- All the people are standing around.
- And there's a girl.
- We don't hear sound because it's just little fragments.
- But she was apparently leading them in singing songs.
- There's a scene where some children are climbing up
- the stairs.
- And then there's a scene where the children are
- with their teachers or their guides
- in a large room in the Sokolowo, I
- think it was, with tables with toys, playing.
- And I've heard that-- for example, there
- was one lady in Copenhagen, I believe,
- who said that they just were only
- allowed to play with those toys at the time of the filming.
- And after that, it was forbidden.
- They used to come and look in the windows and just so
- longingly at the toys which they couldn't touch anymore.
- I don't remember having any toys at all.
- Yeah.
- That must have been like the sardines.
- Right.
- Yes, yes, that scene.
- Were you in that scene when there was, oh, sardines,
- another time we have to eat?
- Yeah.
- No, I wasn't there.
- Because that was made up with really small kids
- in kindergarten.
- And the story goes, like, they said they got the sardines.
- And comes this top SS Rahm.
- [CROSS TALK]
- These are sardines, Uncle Rahm, and so on.
- You know, spoiled kids, and so on.
- Of course, we had some sardines.
- Because they were supplied by the Swiss Red Cross.
- And so from time to time, they were sardines.
- And since then I love sardines.
- And here in the States, it's not such a big deal.
- I would say that people here, if someone else heard of sardines,
- it's not such a big deal.
- But in Europe at this time, sardines
- were some kind of a delicacy.
- A delicacy?
- I can imagine, sure.
- And so I buy for myself sardines.
- And I like that.
- [LAUGHS]
- Yeah.
- It's good for people.
- Yeah.
- It's not only you.
- There is a guy in our office who loves to eat sardines.
- All the rest of the guys in my section make fun of him.
- And I happen [INAUDIBLE].
- They kind of smell.
- But I don't mind.
- [LAUGHTER]
- But the rest of them, the natives, I mean,
- the born Americans, they really do mind.
- They don't like it.
- Yeah.
- And he is not Jewish?
- I don't think he is.
- [PERSONAL NAME],, this doesn't sound Jewish.
- No.
- [LAUGHTER]
- Were you aware of, besides Brundibar,
- which was, of course, children singing and acting,
- were you aware of children's choirs?
- Because there were.
- I haven't come across myself personally.
- Yeah.
- Well, I don't remember if I had to participate
- or was told not to participate.
- But they were choirs--
- Mhm.
- --and the songs, and so on.
- But that was not special about the Jewish community.
- Because that's just in Czechoslovakia,
- the children sing at school.
- And they make choirs.
- And the teacher enjoys sort of showing it.
- We are a singing nation.
- Yeah.
- So it was more or less natural.
- The choirs were there, of course.
- And as I told you, there was education and normal education.
- So in 1945, when I got out of the Terezin camp
- and went with my father, who was in the army at that time
- so he took me with him, and I started school in May.
- And I just started at the same level where I would have been.
- Hmm.
- And to a certain extent, I knew a little bit more
- than the kids.
- So you hadn't really lost?
- No, I think--
- You gained.
- --I gained.
- Interesting.
- In certain things, I was ahead of them.
- But wasn't it like a voluntary activity of the Jewish ladies?
- Yeah, well, it was forbidden.
- It was not allowed.
- But we participated in that.
- And that was quite normal.
- I mean, we did our homeworks.
- And we did it more or less full-time.
- So it wasn't anything organized by the organization
- of the camp, it was just a [INAUDIBLE]??
- Well, it was a sort of underground organization.
- And once or twice they got a word
- that the Germans will control if we have any books
- or if we are learning anything.
- Because somebody told them or something.
- There was a ghetto Bucherei.
- There was this library.
- And I don't know if the children ever went there.
- Do you recall?
- Oh, probably.
- I don't recall.
- But what happened when this sort of word
- came around that there will be an inspection whether we learn
- something or not, so the books were collected and taken away
- to some strange places.
- And we were told not to say anything
- about learning, and so on.
- So it went all right.
- Nobody got in trouble.
- But then the books came back and everything was all right again.
- I suppose the Germans didn't want the children to learn.
- Now it was forbidden for the Jews
- to have any education at all.
- There was a man who I think was--
- I read at least was in charge at a certain point
- of the children's education.
- His name was Zeev Shek.
- Do you recall?
- He went back, actually.
- After the war, he went to Prague and then came to Israel
- and then went back with his wife in the early '50s
- as the first Israeli ambassador in Prague.
- I don't recall that.
- There was also a time--
- I don't know if children went out.
- It was in August of 1944.
- They marched several kilometers out of the walls to a place
- called [NON-ENGLISH].
- What was it's name?
- It was a kind of--
- [NON-ENGLISH] It was a kind of big, open--
- like a park.
- And there they put on a performance of a cabaret.
- And one sees it in the film.
- There was a kind of wooden platform.
- And there were three men with suits.
- And one Hans Hofer, who had the Hans Hofer review performances,
- had this kind of billboard.
- Go out on the street, and they had a grand piano.
- A young man was playing it.
- I haven't yet come across anyone who personally
- remembers being there.
- I don't.
- Yeah.
- I don't.
- And at the time also of the filming,
- there came a memo by Kurt Gerron,
- who was in charge of doing the propaganda
- film that, in the next day, depending on the weather
- there would be a soccer game between the league victors
- and I don't know, whatever the other name was.
- And he said we need to have 3,000 spectators.
- And there should be lots of young people.
- And by no means, under no circumstances,
- should there be old people.
- And that's actually a very long scene, the soccer game,
- in the propaganda film.
- You know, soccer was very popular game in Terezin.
- And actually, in those yards of those--
- Those kaserne.
- --kaserne-- I mean, barracks, there was played soccer.
- And everybody went there.
- And they were such and such team, and this team, and so on.
- My uncle played on one of those teams.
- And he was pretty good.
- [INAUDIBLE]?
- No, that was Franta.
- Oh, Franta.
- And so he was well into exercising, and so on.
- And he was also involved in some kind of underground in Terezin.
- Mhm.
- So anyway, well, he is the one who ended up
- as a communist in our family.
- And so the soccer was attended very, very much.
- It was a smaller team.
- Because the play field in those barracks is not
- as big as the normal barracks.
- So instead of 11, they were 7, I think, or so.
- But that was played everywhere.
- Well you know, soccer is still popular in Czechoslovakia.
- That's probably very natural.
- Oh, I think so.
- Yeah, it was.
- It was.
- It's a game where you don't need anything
- except the field and the ball.
- Right.
- That's true.
- And players, so no expense, no [INAUDIBLE] play.
- Yeah.
- And a coach and I suppose, like friends, a lot of adults
- have been involved before.
- There was also--
- I don't remember when it was, '43, maybe '44,
- when a group of children came from another country,
- stayed for, I think, a few months.
- And then the whole group was moved to--
- To?
- --probably to Auschwitz.
- Uh huh.
- Do you remember a group of new children coming?
- Or were you aware at all of children coming and children
- going?
- Yeah, that was quite, quite normal.
- And that was scary.
- Children would come.
- And specifically, those who were to a certain extent orphans
- or so, they would go further.
- Because naturally, the people wanted to keep together.
- So I was quite lucky that my parents, or my mom, was a nurse
- and she could keep me there.
- And this boy we were taking care of,
- he was supposed to go into a transport
- to go East because he was an orphanage, or something.
- So they would go to the death camps first?
- Yeah.
- And so my mom somehow managed to stop it.
- Because she said I am taking care of.
- And there was shortage of the nurses.
- Mhm.
- And so he stayed back there because of that.
- But he was sick all the time.
- But he survived.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- No, he was completely strange.
- Well, when we were going to Terezin--
- so this family, I think, was half-Jewish,
- or they were divorced, or whatever,
- the father of this boy died.
- So the lady stayed back, and my mom took him--
- sort of adopted him, like.
- So he went--
- And did he stay [INAUDIBLE]?
- In Prague.
- Oh, she didn't have to come?
- Yeah.
- And I think the father left, probably.
- And she was there, and she was not Jewish or something.
- I don't know.
- Anyway, so he went with us, and he stayed in Terezin
- all the time.
- And then, after the war, you know--
- Did you feel that the morale of the children
- was pretty much always on a high level?
- Or even at a young age, did you see some children who
- were depressed by this?
- Well, there was some depression, specifically
- with those children who were without parents.
- And there were plenty of those.
- And when the children got sick, that was unfortunate,
- but that happened.
- And then the morale was down.
- But now, 50 years later or so, I remember the nice times more
- than the awful times.
- Your mother must have been a very strong lady.
- I think she was.
- And that must have been a great comfort to you.
- Well, yeah.
- That's how it seems.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, did your father also--
- I say this because it's so well-documented that people--
- that the women really somehow survived all of this
- in a much better frame of mind, and kept their health more.
- And some have coped with it more--
- better than the men.
- I read this a lot.
- Well, my father-in-law must have been
- an exception, because I think he kept the mind of a [INAUDIBLE]..
- He was-- I mean, he was always an optimist.
- Yeah, well he went through a lot of things.
- And well, when he was visiting here once,
- so that lady from Seattle came.
- No, no, this lady who was here interviewing--
- From the-- yeah, yeah, something like that.
- Not Deborah?
- No, no, no, that was another time, Deborah.
- She's now in Los Angeles.
- What's his last name?
- Deborah Lehman, or something like that?
- Wasserman?
- No, no.
- Lieberman?
- Lehman?
- Is she the one who began this oral history project?
- No, I think that was the lady from the archives.
- This lady here, Rose is talking about,
- she was a professor here at UW in Jewish history,
- or something.
- And so, once my parents, when they were here,
- they contacted her, or something,
- and got in touch with her.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- Yes, she interviewed my father, and they put it on tape.
- And sort of like that.
- Actually, he was moved to Auschwitz in 1944, I think.
- And he survived there.
- And then, he says always, he saw my mom and me hundreds of times
- going into the gas chamber, because everybody
- who went there--
- like a woman with a child--
- would go automatically to the gas chamber.
- He couldn't imagine that we would survive in Terezin.
- So after the Russian army came in,
- he joined the Czechoslovakian army in the East.
- And so after the war, he came back as a soldier.
- So you met up with him again in Prague?
- In Terezin.
- Oh, he came back to Terezin as a soldier?
- As a soldier.
- He took us out of Terezin.
- There was a typhus in there.
- And so my mom made a promise to God that if dad survives,
- she would go back and take care of those people.
- So she went back to Terezin, and take care of those people.
- The typhoid patients?
- Yeah.
- Oh, after she'd actually already left Terezin?
- Yeah.
- Oh, well, we went for a couple of days or for a week
- to Prague.
- And you know, it was guarded, the city was guarded,
- and people couldn't leave.
- Because of the epidemic?
- Because of the epidemic.
- But my dad was in a uniform, and nobody would stop him.
- Sure.
- So he just walked with us out.
- And there was--
- And your mom went back?
- Yeah.
- For how long?
- I didn't know that.
- For about two months, or so.
- And she was certainly a strong woman, but some of that.
- I'm sure.
- I'm sure.
- Tell me about these pictures that apparently your father
- collected.
- Oh, no, I'll show you those pictures, downstairs.
- Well, the--
- The professional?
- Yeah, there is nothing to it.
- I think my mom got them as a nurse from some artists.
- The small ones?
- Yeah, you wanted to look at--
- well, let's go downstairs.
- Won't you bring them up, one day [INAUDIBLE]..
- Well, they are three of them.
- You wanted to take pictures of them?
- They are on the wall.
- I can bring them, because the light is better here.
- I didn't bring a camera.
- What I was thinking was--
- I should see them first.
- Well, let's go downstairs and look at them.
- So let me just take a--
- You see, that's it.
- Can you see anything Dave?
- Not so close, yeah.
- You see, here is the church.
- That's the church.
- And here is the town square.
- So the people carry their luggages
- and so on, they are coming from the transport,
- down to some accommodation.
- So it's an arrival of a transport coming to Terezin?
- Yeah, that's basically what it is.
- 1942, isn't it?
- '43?
- And it looks like--
- I can't quite read the name.
- It looks like Iospin or Iospice--
- I-O-S-P-I--
- I don't know.
- And this is in the barrack, you were?
- Yeah, that's in one of the--
- it's L408, and it was just one of-- that's not a barrack.
- It was a town house, or--
- I know her name, either Hedda or Helga Zadkova.
- You know her?
- Well, I've seen other drawings.
- What is, Zadzkova, or what is it?
- Zadkova.
- Like zabka?
- Yeah, yeah-- so you see in the morning,
- those old people take all their belongings, or actually
- their mattresses, and so on, on the balcony.
- And tried to clean it, and so on.
- Everybody from time to time had some fleas, or something.
- So they are trying to get it.
- That was probably rather an elder home,
- you know, a home for old people.
- And that's 1944?
- And it says L408.
- So I can remember very [CROSS TALK]..
- What's this?
- And this one here--
- Oh, that [INAUDIBLE].
- Can you see it?
- Yeah, 1943, Kalinsky, a painting, actually.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, it is.
- And actually, it is the back side of the hospital,
- the public hospital is somewhere here, I think.
- And so the people are--
- Is that frame also from Terezin?
- It looks like it.
- Yeah, I think so, yeah.
- Probably.
- That's in oil, isn't it?
- Yeah, it looks like it's oil.
- And these are just sketches, like in--
- Well, this one appears to be pen and ink.
- Maybe pencil, but it looks too black.
- Looks like pencil to me.
- It might be sharp pencil.
- It's like sepia--
- Yeah, no, I think it's in ink, you know.
- It must be in ink.
- Pen and ink.
- Yeah, it's really quite well done.
- With a lot of detail.
- And this one, I guess, is--
- That's ink, also.
- Ink with watercolor.
- So your mother--
- Sepia, yeah.
- Your mother, she got it from the artist?
- From the artist.
- They were in the hospital.
- I think they would give it to her for the care, or so.
- Well, those are very precious.
- I like them.
- They are precious to me.
- Yeah, I tell you what I was wondering--
- would it be possible to--
- what I think would be really wonderful would be if slides
- could be made of them?
- Yeah, we could make slides of it
Overview
- Interviewee
- Tomas Lenda
- Date
-
interview:
1990 June 10
- Geography
-
creation:
Copenhagen (Denmark)
- Credit Line
- United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
2 sound cassettes.
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Lenda, Tomas.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch donated the archive of Professor David Bloch to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in 2012.
- Funding Note
- The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 09:37:21
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn558984
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Archive of Professor David Bloch, musicologist, founder and director of the Terezin Music Memorial Project, and Israeli institute devoted to the documentation and study of music and music making at the Theresienstadt concentration camp in the former Czechoslovakia and at other localities under German occupation during the Second World War.
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Oral history interview with Willi Groag
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Oral history interview with Arieh Zemer
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Uri Bas discusses his musical family; the beginning of the war; being sent to the Terezin ghetto on one of the first transports when he was 13 years old; playing the violin and even continuing music lessons in the ghetto, especially harmony; hearing the music in Terezin played in different venues; a song that stayed with him over the years which is a ballad about a pirate [he sings some of it in Czech and reads his translation in Hebrew]; the music in evenings in the ghetto beginning at the end of 1942 to 1943 and which was dedicated to performances and musical entertainment, including cabaret evenings; and being sent to Auschwitz in the fall of 1944, when he was 16 years old.