Oral history interview with Irmtrud Wojak

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2017.295.53 | RG Number: RG-50.957.0052

: One would think he should be, given his history.
: He's known to people in the field
: but not necessarily to a broader public.
: When did you start thinking about doing a biography,
: and why?
: I started-- let me try to remember.
: I think it was 1999, about, 2000.
: I worked-- from '98, I worked about 10 years
: for the biography, and when I came to Frankfurt
: and worked at the Fritz Bauer Institute, I must say,
: before I started in Frankfurt, I didn't know Fritz Bauer.
: So when I started there, I realized how important
: he was for our history.
: So I thought-- first I wanted to start in '98, but then there
: were lots of other projects and a little bit I followed his --
: What do you think it's in English?
: [SPEAKING GERMAN]?
: We followed his steps--
: Yeah, his tracks, yes.
: --through history in working about--
: first about Adolf Eichmann and then about the Auschwitz trial.
: Then I wrote the biography.
: Right.
: Right.
: And step by step, it became clearer for me
: how important he was.
: Yes, yeah, yeah.
: Do you think that's clear to the German public now or not yet?
: I think not yet, not yet.
: Yeah.
: Actually, we had this discussion about the exhibition
: in Frankfurt about Fritz Bauer and whether he was homosexual.
: And I think he was not, and there are no proofs.
: And I am asking myself, why do we have this discussion now?
: It's of no importance for his life or for what he did.
: And now you can read in the newspapers he was a Jew,
: he was a member of the Social Democratic Party,
: and he was a homo.
: So this is-- I cannot understand this discussion and why
: the people are focusing on this.
: Yeah.
: This is not important for the life of Fritz Bauer.
: Yeah.
: Well, actually, that was one of the things I was going
: to ask you because I did--
: I was just at the American Academy
: in Berlin for a very short time, for a few days.
: I managed to get to Frankfurt and see that exhibit.
: I also went to Ludwigsburg to see the Ludwigsburg operation.
: And I looked at the coverage.
: A lot of the coverage mentions the homosexual issue,
: but it's not the central thing.
: And I asked the people at the exhibition what's--
: Did you see the exhibition?
: Yes, I did.
: Yes.
: Yeah.
: And there are those Danish police reports
: which claim that he admitted to having had one
: homosexual affair or something.
: I asked them what they felt the significance of that was,
: and they say only that he had another secret to keep.
: Do you feel-- did you-- by the way,
: did you know about these Danish police reports
: when you wrote your biography?
: Because you didn't include them, I don't think.
: I mentioned them in my book as a rumor
: because I asked myself, who gave the Danish police
: the information that Fritz Bauer now lives in Denmark?
: So when he came in--
: it was in '36.
: He came as a Social--
: member of the Social Democratic Party and not as a Jew.
: And so I don't know if this was very--
: there was a Social Democratic government in Denmark and why
: should the police persecute him, should have persecute him.
: And who gave them the information?
: So I think it was the Gestapo.
: Well, apparently--
: I can't prove this, but--
: because it's not in the archives, but my idea is--
: But they did-- they did interrogate
: Bauer about his activities, so they were clearly
: monitoring him.
: And apparently-- I gather it wasn't-- it was pretty common
: for the Danish police, despite Denmark's reputation as this
: liberal place, to monitor immigrants,
: especially from Germany.
: And so I don't know.
: There was clearly a discussion with him about all this.
: Whether the police report is fully accurate or not
: I don't know.
: So in your book you just said that there
: was a rumor of something?
: Because I don't--
: Yes, and I think that he had to fear that they send him
: back to Germany.
: But you know what this would have meant.
: Oh, of course.
: Concentration camp.
: Of course.
: And by that time, the fact that he was Jewish
: would have also been equally important, yeah.
: Yes.
: And the other thing--
: I know-- I know that--
: I also talked to Ilona Ziok about her film,
: and she also says, why do they even mention,
: stress that he was Jewish.
: Well, in the times, he may have been a secular Jew,
: but the fact that he was Jewish was a factor, obviously,
: given the climate in Germany.
: That certainly-- yes, he was probably imprisoned initially
: as a Social Democrat, but he had to know that being Jewish
: only made him more vulnerable.
: Yes, and the situation became worse for him in '38 and '39
: when he was arrested.
: He was arrested as a Social Democrat
: and not as a Jew in 1933.
: In '33, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
: Yeah.
: But the fact that he was Jewish could have become a factor
: soon enough, obviously.
: Yeah, yeah.
: And also--
: But--
: Yeah?
: Sorry.
: --when he came back in 1949, why it is so important
: that he was a Jewish immigrant?
: He came back not as a Jew.
: He came back as the person, Fritz Bauer, and the lawyer
: and not as a Jew.
: Yes, but it's-- however, he felt--
: the public perception, of course,
: given everything that had happened,
: anybody of Jewish origin was seen as a Jew.
: Yeah, that-- yeah.
: So the fact that he was [? glaublos, ?] as he
: would tend to say--
: there was not--
: I don't think changed that, probably.
: I don't know.
: He was not member of the Jewish community,
: and he was, that sense he was glaubenslos,
: and he was fond of the Humanist Union.
: Yes.
: So he was as Jewish as I'm a Catholic.
: Yeah, well, but if you were--
: Otherwise we would argue with racist arguments.
: Yeah.
: Well, if the kind of origins of people
: were considered important as they were at the time--
: for all the wrong reasons of course--
: then you would be described as a Catholic.
: So certainly, having been in the Balkans,
: if they asked you your religion, it
: didn't matter whether you were a believer or not.
: But yeah, there's that, but you believe--
: but just on the point, you believe he was not--
: he was-- you believe he was not homosexual.
: There's no proof of it.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Yeah.
: So why should I speculate about that?
: Yeah, yeah.
: This is my most important point.
: It's not necessary to speculate about the sexuality
: of a person.
: Right.
: And then the one other thing that I think--
: that I think you did not mention in your book,
: as far as I could see, was in '33, when he was released,
: there was this business, which was, again, in the exhibit,
: about the loyalty oath, that he--
: they say he signed a loyalty oath to get out of the camp
: in '33, which--
: the copy of which in the newspaper
: there says "Fritz Hauer," which they say is a typo.
: But they say there are other documents which
: say "Fritz Bauer."
: Were you aware of that loyalty oath before?
: Yes, I have heard about it, but it's not proved.
: If you don't have the proof for these documents,
: I don't want to speculate in my book.
: It may be, but it's--
: I don't know.
: Yeah.
: Well, there are these documents, which--
: like the one they show where--
: the actual loyalty oath, and his name is there.
: There was apparently nobody by the name of Fritz Hauer there.
: It would seem unlikely.
: Well, if you want to get out of the concentration camp,
: I think there were a lot of things you do.
: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
: And that's why I don't think it's exactly--
: it would be something terrible if he signed this.
: It'd be quite understandable.
: I think so, too.
: And given his family situation also,
: he would be worried if he doesn't
: get out and help his family then things could only get worse.
: So that's why I don't think it's--
: I don't think it was in any kind of accusatory way that--
: but it seems to be just part of the record
: there that he probably did this, which, again, does not
: detract from his life story and what he accomplished.
: It's like you say, it's not so important.
: Yeah.
: But I guess my question is, in writing this--
: and I know, again, in the documentary
: that Ilona Ziok did.
: She also left any discussion of it out.
: But did you feel it would detract from his story
: if you even brought up this issue?
: It should be tracked?
: Or do you do you think it would be negative for his image
: to include that?
: About the rumors?
: Well, it was more than rumors.
: There were these documents with his--
: which apparently-- which appear to confirm that he actually
: did sign this to get out of the concentration camp, which,
: as you say, is quite understandable.
: Well, I think it is playing with sentiments against homosexuals.
: Well-- oh, I'm talking about the--
: [BOTH TALKING] document still exist?
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: It is playing with prejudices against homosexuals?
: But in terms of-- the loyalty oath
: had nothing to do with homosexual issues.
: Yeah.
: No.
: Ah, now you are talking about [BOTH TALKING] document again?
: Yes, yeah.
: Yeah.
: No, that's-- this is of no importance.
: OK.
: I think it's not very interesting
: whether he signed this or not because if he signed it,
: it's understandable, like you said.
: And if it's not true, it's not true.
: That's not very interesting.
: OK.
: And then I wanted to ask you--
: I think I asked you this in an email.
: I don't-- I can't remember whether you said something
: about it.
: Did you come across much in terms of his contacts
: with Jan Sehn in Poland?
: No.
: No?
: No, OK.
: I have not.
: I only know that Jan Sehn died in Frankfurt.
: Yes.
: And I didn't, no.
: Yeah, he died in Frankfurt in '65, which is sort of--
: it's sort of ironic, at the very least,
: that he dies there in '65 and Bauer in '68.
: '68, yeah.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Did you-- and how did you feel about the whole issue
: of Bauer's death?
: Do you think-- there are--
: there have been these, again, speculation.
: Could there have been any--
: could this have been more than just a natural death?
: I don't know.
: The only thing I know is that we don't know how he died,
: and we have the documents.
: And it's not clear what happened at this weekend.
: And everything is speculation.
: Right.
: What's important is to say that we don't know it,
: and this also says something about his situation
: that he was maybe--
: I think he was very lonely.
: But when you say he was very lonely,
: are you saying this could have been a suicide or--
: No, I don't think so.
: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
: I don't think so.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: And how do you-- how much do you think he
: was-- he felt threatened physically?
: I know you write--
: I think you mentioned he carried a gun.
: He was authorized.
: Do you-- and he got a lot of threats, which you write about
: in your book.
: Do you think--
: Yeah, these telephone calls during day and night
: and the letters.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: But do you think he--
: do you get-- did you get the sense that he really felt
: physically threatened by this?
: It's not easy to say.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: It can't be-- yeah, of course it's not--
: it's not a pleasant experience to be threatened constantly,
: but some people have-- it depends on their personality.
: Some people seem to be able to not get too concerned.
: Others, obviously, get more concerned.
: I just was wondering, in doing all this research,
: whether you had a sense of his level of concern.
: I don't know.
: Threatened physically?
: I don't think so.
: You don't think so, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK.
: Right.
: OK.
: And then in terms of--
: one of the things I find really interesting is
: that, with Bauer's theory during the Auschwitz trial
: basically that people who are part of a machine of death
: and going into it knowing what they are involved-- that
: is really-- his theory was that that should be
: enough to indict them, right?
: Yes.
: Yeah.
: That you don't have to prove--
: For him--
: Yeah?
: --they were perpetrators.
: Anybody who participated, yes.
: In Auschwitz and in every concentration camp.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: Because they knew what happened there.
: Everyone who was in Auschwitz knew--
: --what was happening.
: --about the gas chambers and the murder of millions of people.
: Right, right.
: It's like the Murder I-N-C.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Yeah.
: Of course, the German courts did not generally
: take that approach, and of course-- and even
: in the Auschwitz trial that approach
: was not exactly accepted.
: But it's interesting that now, with--
: in the end, the Demjanjuk case, in effect, vindicated the Bauer
: view, didn't it?
: Because it said--
: I'm not sure.
: I'm not sure.
: Yeah.
: I would like to discuss this with Eli Rosenbaum
: because I think he was accused by [INAUDIBLE] for aiding
: and abetting and not as a perpetrator, Demjanjuk.
: Well, first of all, Demjanjuk case is, as you know,
: very complicated because in the beginning
: there were clearly some mistakes made, and he maybe was--
: he was misidentified probably.
: But in the end, as I understand it,
: the German court, although there was not a final ruling,
: basically said, as part of this machinery,
: knowing he was in places like Treblinka
: and what the purpose of those camps were,
: that that was enough to make him guilty.
: And I think that was the basis, as I understand it,
: in Ludwigsburg--
: To make him guilty for aiding and abetting or--
: Well, yeah, as being--
: yeah, I'm not sure what the formal charge is,
: but guilty of being part of this,
: basically, as you say, Murder Inc, whatever
: the formal legal charge is.
: And that's what has also prompted, for instance,
: Kurt Schrimm and the Ludwigsburg people
: to go after remaining Auschwitz guards
: they can find on the same basis, not
: looking for witnesses to prove individual crimes but simply
: on the basis that they were Auschwitz guards.
: And very late, of course, but this
: seems to be to a little bit of a vindication of the Bauer
: argument.
: I don't know if you see it that way, but that was--
: it appears to--
: I really don't know it.
: Yeah, yeah.
: OK.
: I should read the judgment.
: All right.
: All right.
: Oh, and one other thing I found very interesting
: at the end of your book--
: I had not known about--
: that Bauer had been thinking about doing
: a play about Oscar Wilde.
: Yeah.
: That's--
: He wanted to write about Oscar Wilde and about Kafka.
: And Kafka as well.
: Yeah.
: Now, was he going to write the play or was going--
: he wanted to-- did you have the impression he wanted
: to actually write the play?
: Yeah, he wanted to write about Oscar Wilde.
: Yeah, yeah.
: That was the idea.
: But I never found the script.
: Do you think he started writing?
: I don't know.
: Yeah, yeah.
: [BOTH TALKING]
: Yeah, yeah.
: And do you think his interest in him was purely
: as a persecuted playwright?
: Or I hate to bring it up again, but Oscar Wilde, of course,
: was very known--
: who had been persecuted for his homosexuality as well.
: Do you think that was at all a factor in his interest?
: I don't think so.
: OK.
: All right.
: He was very interested in literature
: and went to the theater in Frankfurt as often as he could.
: Had he written any-- attempted to write any plays before?
: Do you know?
: No.
: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
: But he went to the theater often?
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: OK.
: OK.
: Is that the phone?
: Yeah, I can ignore that.
: That's all right.
: It's nothing important.
: I'll just let it ring.
: Call from--
: And-- OK.
: Oh, the other thing--
: I'm sorry to skip around, but I just
: sort of jotted down things.
: Getting back to that business in the '33 and whether or not
: there was a loyalty oath, did--
: Schumacher spent about 10 years in the camps, right?
: Didn't he?
: Mm-hm.
: Right to the end of the war.
: But he was in the same camp as Bauer in the beginning in '33.
: Is that correct?
: Yes.
: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
: So do you have any idea whether this was standard procedure
: to try to get people to sign loyalty oath,
: whether Schumacher would have been offered one or not?
: Or they just wanted to keep him locked away?
: I don't know.
: Yeah, yeah.
: I don't know.
: Yeah.
: I've never heard this about Schumacher.
: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
: And Schumacher and-- and Bauer, after the war,
: continued to be on good terms, right?
: There are not very much document about this,
: but they corresponded, especially when Fritz Bauer
: was in Denmark and tried to--
: --come back.
: --come back to Germany.
: He wrote some letters to Schumacher to help him.
: Right.
: Right, right, right.
: Yeah.
: OK.
: And by the way, so how long did you work at the Fritz Bauer
: Institute?
: 10 years.
: 10 years?
: Wow.
: 10, 11 years, yeah.
: Wow.
: I think I started in 1996 and left it in 2006 or '07.
: No, it was '07, I think.
: 2007.
: And then I went to the ITS.
: But I was in International Tracing Service for one year.
: And from there, I went to Munich and made--
: wrote the concept for the NS Documentation Centre.
: It was not accepted.
: Oh, really?
: And there was a huge discussion about it.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Right.
: But did you feel-- at the Fritz Bauer Institute, was there--
: the main mission there is to document the Nazi era, right?
: Or--
: Yes.
: Yeah.
: But was there even there a lot of interested in Fritz Bauer
: himself?
: During my time, not.
: Not.
: It was very difficult. It was a very difficult situation there.
: In what way?
: I think for political reasons.
: There were lots of troubles during that time,
: and there were some people who didn't
: like that I wrote the biography and some people who helped me.
: But why would they not be happy with the Fritz Bauer
: autobiography?
: That you should ask them.
: Yeah.
: OK.
: But do you feel that--
: actually, I know-- again, I know Ilona Ziok has
: very strong views on some of this,
: and she feels that they are actually--
: the exhibition is trying to in some ways discredit Bauer.
: I did not get that impression just going
: through the exhibition, but do you feel that that's the case?
: I didn't see the exhibition.
: I was not invited to participate.
: It was interesting for me.
: You were not invited?
: Oh.
: No.
: What's her name?
: [? Ball, ?] I think.
: Oh, yeah, [? Molika ?] [? Ball, ?] yes, yes.
: I spoke to her, yes.
: We had some telephone calls, and I said, of course I help you.
: But we should make a contract because I've
: collected a lot of material.
: And then I never again heard about it.
: I see.
: Yeah.
: And now there's also this--
: And the reason for that I don't know.
: I think-- it was --
: Yeah.
: And somebody else made another film about Bauer, right?
: Or was there something in television?
: Yes, [INAUDIBLE],, the second program, yeah.
: But I didn't see the film.
: Yeah, that one I haven't seen either.
: I don't know what it's like.
: And I know you also now have this other biography of Bauer
: by Ronen Steinke.
: Ronen Steinke, yeah.
: He started with this rumor.
: He was the one who wrote about the--
: I think he was the first one who said there were two secrets,
: and this is his Jewishness and the homosexuality.
: Yeah, well, the Jewishness doesn't seem like a secret.
: It isn't-- although Bauer--
: I guess he wrote that in the '20s that Bauer identified
: himself as Jewish on some application,
: some formular kind of--
: which he may have.
: I don't know that--
: I don't think so.
: Yeah.
: All right.
: Well, listen, when you come to the United States,
: please do let me know.
: I was only in Germany a short time,
: so I was not able to get to Munich.
: And I only got your coordinates, and so I figured
: it'd be easier to do here.
: But I hope we can meet in person at some point.
: That would be nice.
: Yeah.
: I'm coming at the end of August.
: At the end of August, wonderful, wonderful.
: OK.
: And I assume you'll be living in Cambridge, in Boston, right?
: Yes, yes.
: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
: And how long is the fellowship?
: One academic year?
: One year.
: Yeah, yeah.
: OK.
: Well, terrific.
: I look forward to seeing you at some point.
: I suspect you'll also come at some point to New York
: and Washington, right?
: Yes, of course.
: Yeah, yeah.
: Well, please let me know when you're heading this way.
: OK.
: OK.
: Well, thank you very much.
: It always helps.
: Thank you.
: Again, as I say, I found your book fascinating,
: but always helps to just ask a few--
: It should be translated into English.
: Yes.
: Yeah, I know.
: I hope I can do something when I'm in Cambridge.
: Right, right.
: Yeah, you should-- yeah, I think it's always better
: to try to work on that in person.
: But publishing these days in the United States is very--
: it's difficult, and I know some translations are--
: some publishers are reluctant.
: But I think some of the bigger university
: presses like Harvard, and Yale, and so forth might,
: you would think, would be open to something like this.
: Maybe a shorter version.
: Yes, yeah, yeah.
: Great.
: Well, thank you so much.
: Pleasure to speak to you.
: Thank you.
: Bye-bye.
: OK.
: Bye-bye.

Overview

Interviewee: Irmtrud Wojak
Interviewer: Andrew Nagorski
Credit Line: Permanent Collection. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Gift of Andrew Nagorski

Physical Details

Language: English
Extent: 1 digital file : MP3.

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Conditions on Access: There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
Conditions on Use: No restrictions on use

Keywords & Subjects

Personal Name: Wojak, Irmtrud.

Administrative Notes

Legal Status: Permanent Collection
Provenance: Andrew Nagorski donated the interview with Irmtrud Wojak to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in 2016.
Special Collection: The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive

Record last modified:: 2023-11-16 09:40:16
This page:: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn562462

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