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Oral history interview with Israel Gruzin

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2013.163.1 | RG Number: RG-50.030.0715

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    Oral history interview with Israel Gruzin
    Transcript
    This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    interview with Mr. Israel Gruzin on August 7, 2013
    in Baltimore, Maryland.
    Good morning, Mr. Gruzin.
    Good morning.
    I am very pleased that we can meet today and talk today.
    Pleasure is mine, also.
    OK.
    And usually, we start our interviews
    with asking about a person's early life.
    In this case, I'm going to start this interview the other way
    around, in that you have already had an interview with the museum
    many, many years ago, in the '90s, and there are parts
    of that interview where there is some information that is
    missing, and that's because there wasn't enough time
    to capture it.
    As your interview then ended, it was at liberation in Germany.
    And what we didn't know from it is
    what happened to the various family members,
    so what did happen to your mother?
    What did happen to your father?
    What were the fates of yourself and your siblings?
    So let's start with your mother.
    Please tell me her name, when she was born,
    and a little bit about her.
    The date is, for me, a little bit hard,
    but her name was Genesse.
    Genesse?
    Genesse.
    That was your grandmother.
    No.
    This is--
    She's asking about your mother.
    My mother.
    Henia.
    Pardon me.
    Henia.
    Henia?
    Henia, yeah.
    Henia.
    Henia.
    Henia.
    Yeah.
    And she was Jusmanovic.
    Jusmanovic?
    Jusmanovic, the Lithuanian.
    And she was born in Lithuania, in Kaunas.
    And she had a brother, and she was a [INAUDIBLE]----
    not a-- she was a--
    she lost her parents very early, and in fact, she
    lost her father and her mother.
    She was growing up with her brother in Kaunas.
    So she was an orphan?
    In a way, yeah.
    When she was living, and my uncle-- let him rest in peace--
    was living across from the Prezident.
    Anyway.
    I know the street.
    Prezident gatvė.
    Yeah.
    And she was-- always, growed up, and then my father--
    well, my father was born in Latvia.
    And then it looked like--
    I don't know exactly the way it was,
    but they met, and they get married,
    and then, of course, my brother was born.
    I was born.
    And that's the way this story starts going on.
    So you were two boys.
    We were two boys, yeah.
    OK.
    So your mother Henia-- you don't remember the date she was born,
    what year that might have been?
    I really don't remember.
    Can you tell us, Mrs. Gruzin?
    The 1800s.
    She was--
    Probably in October.
    OK, October, 1900?
    Yeah, because--
    Your wife says--
    And your uncle's name-- tell them.
    What's his name?
    My uncle?
    My mother's brother.
    What was his--
    Oh, Jusmanovic was Pesach.
    Pesach.
    [INAUDIBLE] Pesach.
    Pesach.
    Pesach Jusmanovic.
    I can tell you the story, what's going on with them.
    What happened is, when--
    if it's not in the tape, I will--
    my mother was-- when we were in the concentration camp--
    And you got split.
    We were split.
    She--
    So what happened-- and at that point,
    we didn't know anything more about of happened to her.
    Now, she us was in--
    we were driving away form Lithuania, from the ghetto,
    from--
    I was in a castle, really, in the--
    Raudondvaris.
    Raudondvaris.
    Raudondvaris-- that was the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    Over there, we were in the ghetto, taking out,
    and moved to the--
    That means when the ghetto was liquidated--
    The ghetto was still existing.
    We were taken off the ghetto, me, my father and brother.
    Luckily, I--
    And your mother?
    And my mother.
    OK.
    Luckily, we were running away from the Germans
    to Latvia, the whole story, I hope you must know.
    Yeah.
    We'll talk about that later.
    Yeah.
    Then, when they came out--
    and then, after-- when the war start,
    we were going to go to the camps, you know?
    These Germans took us to the trains.
    They took us-- we didn't know where we were going.
    The train stopped in Stutthof.
    OK.
    Do you remember what year this was?
    We left the ghetto-- it was in 1940,
    when the Russian-- was in '41.
    This was in the end of '41.
    But I thought you were in the ghetto during the children's
    aktion, or--
    I know I was--
    --or around the same time?
    I was-- no, I was lucky, we wouldn't be here.
    I was liquidated from the ghetto to Raudondvaris.
    That is, not liquidated, but taken.
    Taken, yeah.
    Taken, OK.
    Taken.
    They took us-- there by foot, we were marching there.
    There was a castle.
    There, I was working.
    [INAUDIBLE] from this.
    But my mother, the Stutthof-- stopped in Stutthof.
    There was my uncle, also, there.
    They took out all the woman.
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    Yeah.
    The men have to go--
    Split--
    --split up.
    OK.
    When one train, well, the train is
    for the wagons, the cattle wagons or smelling holders,
    are riding with four or five days with no food for nothing.
    The smell was certainly--
    train was stopped in the station sometime to wait.
    We said that people are leaving, and they basically
    leave us just sitting in there when
    the Germans or some of the times, the soldiers
    was all volunteers.
    A Latvian was on the roof and the train.
    And people tried to escape, some of them passengers escape.
    And the train stopped in Stutthof.
    The women were taken away, the men were taken away.
    When we were going back to the trains, well,
    instead, we came into Dachau.
    We came into Dachau, then we supposed
    to be in Dachau, then all of a sudden,
    they came out that we didn't belong there.
    We have to go back to the train.
    The train have to go to Landsberg.
    It's called Lager I. We came and we [? left ?]
    because there's [? enough ?] of us, that's easy.
    We came from the trains and went back to the trains.
    The train was going again, It was not so far away from Dachau
    to Landsberg, but it's taking us to stop
    and the military holders.
    Then, of course, it takes about a day or day and a half.
    Then we came to Landsberg.
    In Landsberg, they stopped the train, and they said,
    this is the future for you.
    This is going to have a work in camp.
    And you're going to work for the company Miele.
    OK.
    Miele?
    Miele.
    Miele?
    Miele.
    Miele.
    Now, let's stop at this point.
    So the last time you see your mother, she's in Stutthof.
    I didn't see her in Stutthof--
    She was just taken away.
    She's taken away by the railroad tracks.
    OK.
    Taken away.
    Oh, by the railroad tracks.
    They weren't even in the camp.
    No, the city camp.
    The camp is so far away, but I came Haftlinge.
    People which already belong to the camp.
    That means prisoners, Haftlinge.
    Yeah.
    And they were trying to take this group,
    help them to go back to Stutthof.
    I was never in Stutthof but by Stutthof.
    The train stopped maybe about a quarter
    of a mile from the [INAUDIBLE] from the Stutthof [INAUDIBLE]..
    So tell me, what happened to your mother?
    All right.
    Then she was there.
    We didn't know, when we came into Landsberg.
    When the war finished, we didn't know nothing about my mother.
    But my brother was very sick.
    And he was with you.
    My brother and father was with me in the camp number one.
    I was liberated from General Eisenhower.
    In fact, I had a picture but I think I lost the picture.
    But my brother was very sick.
    He was beaten up in the camp and all this.
    Then, they took him right away, the American Army
    takes them out and put him right away in a quarantine.
    When they took him in to Gauting.
    And over there was to [? be. ?] He was here to [? be. ?]
    Well, on top of this, was beaten up so badly.
    They took him to Gauting?
    Gauting.
    Yeah, in German.
    Galting?
    Is that a town or a hospital?
    This is a hospital.
    It's a hospital.
    Yeah, it's a hospital.
    It's a very small town what he called the hospital like--
    And it took them over there, and we
    were separated from my brother, but my father
    didn't want to leave him alone.
    And my father went with him and I was a very little stronger.
    When I didn't know what was going on,
    but because the American soldiers,
    I was in Feldafing first.
    Feldafing.
    Feldafing.
    Yeah.
    Well, there was a Kinderlage they called it a children camp.
    When I was there, that little [? important ?]
    General Eisenhower came up and put his hands on my head
    and people made a big sermon.
    And from there, I was deported from Feldafing to Fohrenwald.
    Well, I was under the first--
    Fohrenwald?
    Fohrenwald, yeah.
    That means you were transported.
    Transported, we were free already.
    Then I was transported in Fohrenwald.
    My father and brother was in Gauting
    because my father wouldn't leave him alone.
    And then through the Red Cross, we were trying to find out,
    we didn't know where my mother is.
    You know?
    And then, there were signs.
    When they established a little bit after the war,
    we were but a four, five, six month to the Red Cross.
    We look signs for names.
    And then we looked people who got survived in Lithuania.
    Then we found our mother's name.
    She survived?
    She survived.
    She survived.
    OK.
    But 16 years took till we get together with--
    because my brother was very sick and was in the hospital.
    When my mother went back to Lithuania.
    And my mother wasn't Lithuanian, but what happened
    was luckily a brother run away from Lithuania to Russia,
    and they came also.
    The family came to Lithuania.
    Then my mother had some place for to stay.
    Then she found out her brother is there.
    Was he in the 16th Division?
    Was he in the Soviet army coming back?
    No, no.
    No, he just ran as a civilian.
    They runned away.
    The whole family runned away.
    The rest came back to Lithuania.
    And then we found out through the Red Cross
    that my mother is alive.
    Well, she is working for Lithuanian people.
    People just to make--
    Was she in Kaunas?
    Did she go back?
    She was in Kaunas.
    She goes back?
    She was in Kaunas.
    She couldn't go to Vilijampolė because the others were
    taken away.
    But she stayed, I don't know where
    they were staying with my uncle, with her brother.
    And then, because my father start
    trying to find out where my mother is and I was a little bit
    involved.
    I start walking in the DP camp.
    But very hard connections, we get all of a sudden in touch
    with her.
    She was not good in writing or something.
    When her brother wrote a letter that she stayed with him,
    and then my father tried to get papers.
    Do you still have those letters?
    No.
    My father tried to get her to come to Germany.
    My father went to the Consulate, the Russian Consulate.
    Which Consulate?
    The Soviet Consulate.
    Yeah.
    And they said if we're safe, so yes.
    In Russia, is everything there.
    You didn't have to be in German hospital.
    My brother can come to Russia and they
    will cure him over there.
    And then [INAUDIBLE].
    I had a cousin who was first liberated,
    they went back to Russia.
    They arrested him with 10 years in a row.
    Yeah, in a gulag.
    Yeah, he was in prison.
    So was there pressure?
    Because we heard in the DP camps,
    there used to be pressure from the Soviets
    to have people go back.
    The propaganda was very strong, but you know,
    my father never liked the Russians.
    He got arrested when the Russians came to our country.
    He brought a chicken for us.
    I remember that part.
    And then they arrested and imprisoned
    for three or four hours, but they didn't [INAUDIBLE]
    otherwise [INAUDIBLE] men.
    And he was doing, even from before,
    and he didn't want to point the finger.
    He wasn't arrested.
    Then he get a little bit bitten or something,
    but he didn't say nothing and they let him free.
    So this is for having bought a chicken when the Russians first
    came to Lithuania in 1939, 1940.
    Yeah, when the Russians--
    Lithuania came in 1941.
    Yeah, OK.
    So let's go back to after the war and you're in the DP camps.
    And you find out, you get letters
    from your mother a little bit, some from her brother,
    that she is back and she survived.
    She's back in Kaunas Kovno.
    Yeah.
    And the question is how to reunite.
    OK.
    Now, through the years, I was working
    for the German government.
    And I had opportunities to drive a German car with a German flag
    and I spoke the language.
    And there I was, all of a sudden, a lot of people
    thought I was from Ostpreussen, and I speak a little bit
    with the accent.
    That doesn't [? want ?] German something.
    But doing this, I had chances to find out the mass graves that
    pointed a finger in Germany.
    Where they put monuments.
    I have some pictures from this.
    But my mother was still there.
    It was still Lithuania.
    Can I interrupt just a little bit?
    I'm sorry.
    Yeah.
    When you, first of all, how many years
    did you work in Germany after the war?
    Oh, I've worked for 1945 till '55.
    So 10 years you stayed?
    10 years I was involved.
    Yeah.
    That's unusual.
    Yeah, but the thing is, I met my wife in the DP camp.
    Ah.
    And I got married in the [INTERPOSING VOICES]..
    In the DP camp.
    And my mother was still not there.
    My mother was still in Lithuania.
    Now, tell me, when you were working in those 10 years,
    that's before the wall went up.
    Were you able to travel to East and West easily?
    Or did you have to stay in the West?
    I never had a desire to travel in the East.
    East.
    I never got to the--
    but of course, then--
    So excuse me, I'm sorry, I keep interrupting.
    But it means that the mass graves
    that you identified were all mass graves that would have been
    in the Western part of Germany.
    Western part, yeah.
    Got it.
    I was never in the Eastern part.
    Got it.
    Then, of course, I got married in the DP camp in Fohrenwald.
    And I met my wife there and she had two brothers and a sister
    and her mother and her father.
    They came from Russia.
    From Russia?
    Yeah.
    We walked around as friends like for three years and her father,
    let him rest in peace, said, look, what's going on?
    You have to get married.
    And I was very willing to do this.
    It was my pleasure.
    And we got married in 1953.
    In 1953, my mother was still in Lithuania.
    Did she want to leave?
    Your mother?
    No, she wanted to leave, she couldn't.
    She couldn't come.
    We just with letters.
    Sometimes, we smuggled in.
    I took a picture of myself, put in a couple dollars,
    and put it to glue together and send it to my father,
    send it over there.
    But my mother was still not there.
    My brother was a long time in the hospital.
    When my brother came out from the hospital,
    then my father tried to get my mother to Germany,
    but he couldn't make.
    But I didn't want to stay in Germany.
    And this [NON-ENGLISH],, this I and my wife and my baby.
    She was born there.
    My daughter was born in Germany.
    And I had an uncle here.
    My father had a brother came before the war.
    And then the other brother, but he was in the camps also,
    he came also, and my cousin came in here.
    Then somehow, I didn't want to stay in Germany, even
    though I had the opportunity.
    They offered me a house and they offered me a lot of--
    Who did the offering?
    They're from the DP camp.
    Oh, so the administration of the DP camps.
    There was also Mr. Weigant.
    Well, he was very nice to us.
    We're living with the same house and when we got married.
    And he said, you can buy a house, you can stay here.
    This will [INAUDIBLE] not always be a little--
    it's a beautiful place now.
    Is this Fohrenwald?
    Fohrenwald, yeah.
    Fohrenwald is not open.
    There's not a camp or something.
    And is that in Bavaria?
    In Bavaria, yeah.
    And not too far away from Munich.
    And then I made emigration.
    But nevertheless, I know that you say you wanted to leave,
    but it's unusual to hear that someone stayed 10 years.
    That's a long time.
    I had to stay because of my mother.
    And because my brother was very sick
    and I wouldn't leave my father.
    I didn't want to go to Israel.
    I see.
    Because I was young and I had friends.
    When I saw I had the experience also in the camp.
    I was driving a ambulance, I was driving a car.
    And then people came from the Diagonale,
    called us the groups in there.
    And they get me a little bit involved,
    but I couldn't leave my father and brother in Germany.
    And then, of course, I met my wife, then I got married and--
    What is your wife's name?
    My wife is right here.
    I know.
    Adela.
    Adela Miller.
    Adela Miller.
    OK.
    And we met over there.
    We got married with a wedding.
    I invited a lot because I work for the government.
    I invited a lot of people from the German government.
    So the first time a Jewish wedding outside.
    Then my daughter got born.
    And I still don't have--
    we hear this with letters from my mother.
    But I decide I didn't want to stay in Germany.
    OK.
    I still have met-- you see, every time you say something,
    I have more questions about what it is that you said.
    So you work for the DP administration,
    the displaced persons camp administration.
    Yes.
    And you work as a driver.
    Hang on, I will stop the tape.
    Hang on a minute, and I'm going to continue.
    So you work for the DP administration.
    Right.
    And this is immediately after the war.
    And not right away after the war, maybe about a year later
    or something.
    Well, you're a young person.
    You were born, when?
    In 1928.
    End of '28, yeah.
    End of '28.
    So now you're about 17 years old, 18 years old.
    Right.
    You've been through hell.
    You were under one occupation.
    Then, you were trying to escape.
    Then, you were in a ghetto.
    I didn't try to escape.
    I mean escape to Latvia and the Soviet Union.
    Oh, yeah, in the beginning when the war
    started with the whole family.
    The beginning.
    And then you're in the ghetto, and then you're in Raudondvaris,
    then you're in the camps.
    I mean, all of this suffering and you saw so much death.
    And a year afterwards, a year after the war ends,
    you're working together with the Germans.
    No, I didn't work with the Germans, was at the DP camp.
    We worked the Germans chance a little bit
    because the Joint and the UNRRA, they make organizations.
    They organized the DP camp.
    But this belonged, all of a sudden,
    before with Americans involved in this.
    And then the Americans gave it over to the German government,
    they took it over.
    With [INAUDIBLE].
    This way, I was working for the Joint
    or for the UNRRA, or some of those.
    Then all of a sudden, it turned it
    to be the Germans took it over.
    But the Germans were not the military.
    It was private people.
    Some of them were very nice, and there's good people everywhere
    and bad people everywhere.
    And in same time, when I was driving this ambulance
    and driving for the government, I always like to work with wood.
    This was my--
    I want to go back to my other question.
    Yeah.
    So it wasn't difficult for you to--
    of course, there are good people and there
    are terrible people In every nation
    and amongst every population, every group.
    But for many people, it was very, after such experiences,
    it was very hard for them.
    It was very hard for me, and I will tell you why.
    Because when I was driving this ambulance that
    I have to take from the DP camp in Munich to the hospitals.
    There were nuns and doctors and holders.
    They were helpful for the people.
    They were something.
    Not everybody did.
    The Nazis, they are still maybe still around some of them.
    But I didn't experience--
    so after the war because I was a free person,
    I can do what I want.
    And then the same time, in this DP camp
    came a family of doctor from the United States with his wife
    was also a doctor herself.
    Well, he was not driving a car.
    Then Saturdays and Sundays when I wasn't in my job,
    I used to take him out to Munich and take him out--
    and I started seeing life a different way.
    To go to opera, to concert, the visiting, like they adopted me.
    I know they adopted me, but then I see life a different way.
    And even when there has been so much [? stillness, ?] there was
    so bad things in my life.
    Then I didn't have a hate because I know there
    is good people and bad people.
    In this camp even, I can tell you about the priest
    with a cross, that's if you want to know.
    Yeah.
    I'll tell you later on.
    But this was going on.
    And then, of course, like I say, my daughter was born.
    There is no future for me.
    I didn't want to stay in Germany.
    Then she had two brothers.
    Your wife?
    No, my wife's two brother, two of them got killed in Russia.
    There was [INAUDIBLE] seven children.
    And got two brothers and a sister
    and a father and a mother.
    But this story's-- but she had the guts to follow me when I
    decided.
    She left her parents and the brother and sister.
    And I left my father and brother.
    Well, I didn't know where my mother--
    I know my mother was alive when I came to Baltimore.
    Baltimore was because I had uncle who came before me.
    I stayed with him and then, of course, I [INAUDIBLE]
    professional [INAUDIBLE] trait and now
    my trade to be a cabinet maker in Germany,
    even though I was driving an ambulance.
    Yeah, you were talking about you loved working with wood.
    That's why I survived while I was in the ghetto.
    So the Germans caught me and I was making an aeroplane.
    When I was doing things like this and
    they stopped me and put me in that car.
    They put them me in a Jeep, took me out from the ghetto,
    and my parents thought they killed me.
    And they told me I should make-- if I come in there,
    make airplanes.
    They said I like airplanes unless it's
    [INAUDIBLE] flying it.
    They gate balsam wood.
    They put me in the [INAUDIBLE] gymnasium in Kaunas.
    And I was there maybe for two weeks.
    My mother and father thought I'm dead.
    But I told to the Germans, can you give them my message
    that I'm alive?
    And of course, we're going to tell your father and mother
    you're there, but I didn't think they know.
    But then when I finished everything, whatever
    they want me to get out of me, and then
    they've said I should go back to them.
    They took me back to the ghetto by the exit.
    And I was going in and my mother thought
    I was passed out because I'm alive.
    You know, this was an experience that I had.
    They would not treat me so bad, because in the basement--
    but I said a lot of bad things.
    I saw what did to that priest in the camp
    when I was hiding the cross for him in Lager I,
    and there was a barracks with nothing.
    There was laying on straw.
    And I dug a little grave, a little hole, for the cross.
    It was a beautiful mahogany cross
    with [INAUDIBLE] was in gold, and the chain was in gold.
    And then of course, it was going out to [INAUDIBLE]..
    And they kept clinking around when they [? kissed ?] them.
    And they called the [? whole, ?] which was three shifts.
    The shifts was coming back from work.
    And they, of course, bring everybody, made siren, alarm.
    And everybody should go by spit on him.
    And then they put a table outside, and one of the Germans
    were drunk and said, I am going to show you what Moses can do
    for you, start with the Jews.
    And then I'm going to show you what Jesus can do for you.
    What Jesus can do for you.
    What Jesus-- yeah.
    And then they put the priest in a chair, and put--
    somebody opened up his mouth and put the cross--
    turned it around--
    They twisted it like a screw?
    Twist, yeah, like a screw.
    And he blooded to death.
    Now--
    He bled to death?
    He diet.
    You know, you couldn't-- put a cross in the mouth and--
    and I was going by, but there still was--
    this time in the [INAUDIBLE] where one time it was still--
    not everybody saw it in the camp,
    because it was all kinds of shifts.
    Day shift, night shift, you know.
    Yeah.
    And they came from another shift, and not everybody saw it.
    But this groups, whatever was still in the camp, they saw it.
    And he bled to death, and then they pulled him away like a dog,
    you know, like nothing.
    They said, see, that's what Jesus can do for you.
    And do you know anything about--
    There was Christian people in this camp, too.
    It was a mix.
    So do you if this priest were--
    do you know anything about him?
    No.
    I don't-- no, he came in.
    I don't know how he got the cross in.
    Because usually you can't--
    I don't know.
    It's a miracle.
    But the miracle also was [INAUDIBLE] sleeping with,
    then they would kill me right on the spot.
    How come they didn't point a finger?
    Nobody asked me.
    And I didn't say nothing when walked by.
    So [INAUDIBLE].
    But those are all the [INAUDIBLE]
    all the [INAUDIBLE] everything.
    So you don't know if he was a Polish priest or--
    I have no idea.
    He spoke fluent German.
    He spoke--
    He could have been a German priest.
    I don't know.
    He spoke also Hebrew.
    You know, he ever talked about Bible and that stuff,
    he told me stories.
    And I was too young to know everything.
    But he in fact on Sundays, he used to smuggle into a bag
    for Christian people was to make a mass.
    On the Saturdays, he turned to be like a rabbi,
    preaching to the Jewish people.
    This was not going on for a long time.
    But this was the experience what I had in--
    Lager I.
    This is Lager I. From Lager I, I have so many stories there.
    When I went to [INAUDIBLE] with the soldiers
    with [INAUDIBLE] request, they would [INAUDIBLE]..
    OK.
    So but we're going back to before the war ends
    when you talk about Lager I. When
    we talk about now after the war in 1955,
    you move here to Baltimore.
    I move to Baltimore.
    Baltimore with your wife and new baby.
    And my daughter, yeah.
    And your daughter.
    And your mother's still in--
    In Lithuania.
    In Lithuania, which is now Soviet Union.
    Right.
    And what happens with your mother?
    Tell us your mother's story.
    Let's bring that to the end.
    OK.
    My mother was in Stutthof.
    And then when she's liberated from the Russian army,
    she didn't know we were alive or not.
    She didn't know, even back [INAUDIBLE],, she went back home.
    Lithuania.
    To Lithuania.
    In Lithuania, She didn't find nobody.
    This we didn't know in the beginning.
    She found then there was Lithuanian people.
    They feel sorry for her.
    They kept her there.
    They gave her some work.
    She was like a house--
    a housewife.
    And then her brother came from Russia,
    it was a little relief for her.
    Then she went back to brother.
    Well then we start to-- we find out that she's alive,
    we start getting letters to each other.
    And all this must have been--
    I was-- my father getting letters and all this.
    I was not in Germany.
    I was already here.
    My father used to write to her, [INAUDIBLE]
    is in touch with your mother and all this.
    And he was going to the consul, to the Russian consul,
    say he'd like to bring--
    she should come there.
    And they said-- like I said in Russia is a [INAUDIBLE]
    hospitals.
    My brother can come over there.
    They will treat him good, and you can be with your mother.
    But my father knew Russians are, he didn't want to go.
    But somehow, the [NON-ENGLISH] they sends a little bit
    of [INAUDIBLE] and they let her out.
    What year did they let her out?
    Do you know?
    Even to Israel.
    Right.
    What happened?
    Your father went to Israel.
    Yeah, he went temporarily to Israel.
    The Joint helped him to go [INAUDIBLE]
    from over there, because he couldn't
    make papers to come to Israel.
    They didn't let her out Germany.
    And somehow she came to Israel, and spend a month or something
    then came back to Germany.
    When they came back to Germany, my brother and father
    went to Israel, and then they came back--
    my mother came to Israel also.
    And then they came back in the States.
    In fact, [INAUDIBLE] stay in the States with her--
    my wife's parents--
    In Germany.
    In Germany, yeah.
    And then in the same time, I tried
    to go to the papers in the newspaper, and I was driving.
    Then there was also a [NON-ENGLISH],,
    the newspaper place--
    Let's place this-- in what year did this happen when--
    so your father went to Israel and was
    able to get your mother out of there, because she would
    come to Israel, not to Germany?
    Is that--
    Not, that's right.
    That's right.
    That's right.
    And what year was that?
    This was being--
    I don't know.
    1956?
    '56?
    Yeah, '56.
    '56, '57.
    '56, '57.
    OK.
    And then they come back to Germany--
    No, we came to America, they went to Israel.
    So that was in 1955.
    She came out in '56, because Israel already
    started to make negotiations with the Russians.
    I see.
    So it was--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    OK.
    It was as a result of Israel's negotiations with the Soviets.
    Right.
    That it was-- do you know if more people were
    released at that time?
    Or was this like a wave of people?
    Because it's very unusual in the '50s.
    Not a wave.
    In the early--
    It was very unusual.
    What happened is, because when we came--
    and I came to the United States, you know, and of course I had--
    I know Eisenhower was running for president,
    and I met him when I was a young boy.
    He had a hand on my head.
    And my brother was very sick, and he couldn't come here.
    And then I went to the paper, the newspaper.
    And I told the story in Germany, you know, this--
    I would like the brother should come out.
    He was--
    Hang on a second.
    You went to a newspaper here in the United States?
    No, in Germany.
    In Germany.
    And you told them the story of your mother,
    and how she couldn't come out?
    Correct.
    And it was printed.
    It was printed.
    The paper was also telling the story about my brother.
    About your brother in the hospital.
    Right.
    I went to-- he want to go to United States,
    but they didn't let him.
    Then I wrote a letter, and I got a letter back from Sherman.
    Adams.
    I think we still have the letter.
    Do you have the article?
    Do you have the letters?
    I have the letter from Sherman Adams, yeah.
    That would be very interesting, to see both
    the article and the letters.
    So, OK, let's go forward.
    So you're--
    Then of course, the--
    maybe when Eisenhower run for president,
    they said, INAUDIBLE, I didn't talk to him.
    Talk to the Sherman Adams.
    He was his assistant.
    And I get a letter somehow, and I got a letter here.
    It said, if he's going to be president,
    he will do all the best he can, because he will try to help
    to come to United States.
    In the letter I said, all the criminals, all the murderers,
    they came here with no problem.
    There was not only a little [INAUDIBLE] Latvian and Italian,
    all this.
    Everybody was-- not everybody was bad.
    There is a certain amount like in the [INAUDIBLE]
    good people and bad people.
    And I can't have accused, God forbid, all these Lithuanians
    and all these Lat--
    there's good people everywhere and bad people.
    But that's why I said to him, then I have to make sure this--
    I would like to have my parents here, and I was--
    we were separated.
    And writing the letter, and somehow he got hands on this.
    And I'm going to prepare and he changed the law,
    because he didn't want to let in people that had TB.
    He was not allowed to come to United States.
    But my brother was cured, whether he had left with-- they
    took a bad kidney from him.
    He had a stiff knee for his lifetime.
    And everything I told him, but he was not--
    he was already negative, not positive.
    Then somehow, they made papers, and then they made papers here,
    and I got--
    and then my mother came to Germany
    with the letter from his visa, and even to Germany.
    And I made papers, and I got them all here.
    Your mother, your father, your brother.
    Yeah, they came over here, yeah.
    And so the first time you saw your mother
    after saying goodbye at the--
    At Stutthof, yeah.
    --at the Stutthof was here in Baltimore?
    No, no, no.
    The-- When I say goodbye to my mother
    was in Stutthof, in Germany.
    Yes.
    But the next time you saw her is here in the United States?
    In the United States, yeah.
    And it was when she arrived to be with you--
    And she arrived with me, my brother and father.
    Then they sent my mother.
    And what did she look like?
    Did she-- could you--
    She looked very weak.
    She had cancer in the breast.
    Didn't live too long.
    She passed away.
    She suffered a lot.
    Did she talk to you?
    Yes, she was with us, and my wife was very--
    she's a golden person.
    She treated my mother like your own.
    Yeah.
    [SOBBING] [INAUDIBLE] She helped me.
    When I think about it, here [INAUDIBLE] she
    got free already, and she didn't have a chance to live too long.
    And my brother passed away when he was 45 years old.
    He was so sick, he had--
    but he didn't-- he was negative.
    But he had TB, they knocked him out
    of a kidney to kidney concentration camp.
    The way they knocked him out of kidney
    I was present when he went into [INAUDIBLE]..
    He can't keep--
    But I want to finish with mama first.
    So when she came, did she tell you
    about what happened to her after you had said-- or did she not
    want to talk about pain?
    No, she talked about it.
    She told us.
    She said [INAUDIBLE] she was beaten up.
    She was beaten up in a [NON-ENGLISH] when she was
    working there.
    I remember I saw her cry.
    The boy beat her up, and I was going to help.
    And somebody had to stop me, because she was
    [SPEAKING GERMAN] and [NON-ENGLISH],, they called us.
    And I was working there with a [NON-ENGLISH],, the sculptor.
    And he made a--
    A sculpture, yeah.
    Yeah.
    He made a face of Hitler.
    I remember.
    And I was assisting him, [INAUDIBLE],,
    but he saved my life.
    The [NON-ENGLISH] said-- because I was going to bring some water
    for him, and there was an Ukrainian boy.
    And he was going to hit you with it.
    He hit me.
    I was going on [INAUDIBLE] there was
    a barrel standing outside when I brought
    some water for the kitchen.
    The kitchen was little bit away from the castle.
    There was a lot of prostitutes from Italian--
    all over, from all over Europe.
    And the Germans had a good time.
    When these-- but this Ukrainian boy
    used to bring the water for the kitchen.
    And he was also a soldier.
    And he was also a student to be a soldier.
    When I was-- I had a bad eye on him,
    because I saw he beat up my mother,
    but I couldn't do nothing.
    And the [NON-ENGLISH] told me, he said-- he called me Fritzl.
    He said, Fritzl, bring me some water.
    Fritzl, bring me some water, yeah.
    Yeah, and I had a bottle, and I came to the--
    I knew he watched me.
    And I go out to the barrel, and I take--
    I take this-- I take this the bottle, and I washed it out.
    It was closed, you know.
    The hose was disconnected, yeah?
    So I said, the hose was disconnected.
    When I just laid down under the bar [INAUDIBLE] what is
    happening to the water, I felt a hand pushed me in and put it--
    the nozzle come right in my mouth
    and made my-- bleed come out.
    My teeth was shaking.
    And they said, [INAUDIBLE] speak up for yourself.
    He said, do you know what you did?
    You know, you drank from the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    I didn't do it.
    And he was sticking the stick, you know, the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    What are you doing?
    And he started beating me up.
    And I was with that [? thin ?] shirt,
    and here I have the bottle fall out of my hand.
    But I didn't know the [NON-ENGLISH] saw it, you know?
    And I was-- I didn't know what's happened to me.
    And it was so painful.
    The [INAUDIBLE] and I pushed him,
    and he fall in, from ground right in the basement where
    the kitchen is.
    On the runout they posted the girls document, [INAUDIBLE]..
    And the Germans, [INAUDIBLE] took the pistols to me.
    One of the soldiers put it to my head
    and said, [SPEAKING GERMAN]?
    "You know what you did?"
    [SPEAKING GERMAN] I said it in German.
    It's OK.
    I just hit a German--
    a German soldier, you know?
    A German soldier.
    I said [INAUDIBLE] I didn't say nothing.
    I said, I did nothing to him.
    I was going-- but luckily the [NON-ENGLISH] saw it.
    He ran there and said, [SPEAKING GERMAN]..
    And he saved me, because he got a pistol on my head, one
    of the soldiers.
    He was going to shoot.
    He was.
    He would shoot me like a dog.
    But then he said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    He saluted me and stopped and said,
    I saw everything was going on.
    This jungen, you know, this boy didn't do nothing wrong.
    I told him to get me water, and he was [INAUDIBLE]
    the bottle clean he washed it, and then all of a sudden,
    you just came and the pistol [INAUDIBLE] in the head.
    So he didn't start up the fight with him.
    And of course, then later on he turned--
    this Ukrainian was a little bit more friendly.
    He was afraid for the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    This experience what I had in this castle.
    But I had a lot of bad experiences over there.
    So I want to go back to your mother.
    And after you split in Stutthof, she talks about how she--
    and she comes to Baltimore so many years later,
    and she tells you about how she was beaten in Stutthof.
    Does she tell you about those?
    No, she was--
    [INAUDIBLE] working there.
    It was, [INAUDIBLE] Stutthof whether they pick her,
    I mean, in concentration camp.
    And they were--
    I know the labor what she did in [NON-ENGLISH] there.
    I was present.
    I didn't see exactly what was going on in Stutthof.
    Of course not.
    But she said she was beaten up there.
    They were working all kind of labor.
    How did she get back to Lithuania?
    Did she walk?
    Did she--
    No, she was liberated.
    She was liberated from the Russians.
    Yes.
    But then she is liberated, did they--
    did she join a convoy to go back?
    Did she go by train or--
    No, no.
    There was-- there was a organizations
    right after the war, and [INAUDIBLE]
    maybe government or something.
    And somebody helped them to bring her back to Kaunas,
    where they belonged to.
    I don't know how this worked.
    She didn't talk about it.
    She didn't talk too much about her experience in the Stutthof.
    Did she talk about her experiences
    after having come back to Lithuania and what life
    was like there for her?
    She said it was very hard for her.
    There was a family who took her in, had pity for her.
    And let her stay there in the house
    there and clean, till she found that her brother is alive.
    And then she got relief.
    Then she start-- moved into-- with her brother,
    But the people where she [INAUDIBLE] they
    were helpful to her a little bit.
    It was a Christian people, but she
    says she didn't have it so easy, but other people didn't like it
    for the--
    some Lithuanians was very good, and some of them [INAUDIBLE]
    help a Jew or something.
    It was-- not everybody is bad, and I can--
    this is my policy all the time.
    And I want to just point out, in the camp was a German in Lager
    I. And he said that I looked like his brother.
    And he said I'll bring you a butterbrot.
    And I was freer in the camp.
    I was this--
    He was bringing your a sandwich, a butterbrot.
    Yeah, butterbrot.
    But this way, I was working.
    I had-- Germans had to speak German.
    I said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    He gave me [NON-ENGLISH].
    And then I worked for Obersturmbannfuhrer.
    But I was in this room.
    When he was talking to Hitler was standing up, saluting.
    When he was talking to the Fuhrer, you know.
    And here I am, a little nobody, you know, and I listened.
    But he was a Nazi.
    He was from Auschwitz, deported to--
    Transported, transferred.
    Transported to [INAUDIBLE] Lager I. And he was not of the Jews.
    He was of the soldiers.
    He was a leader of the soldiers.
    How did you get into that room?
    No, because I was working with-- making [? fire ?] for him.
    Oh, he was--
    I have stories with him.
    You will be surprised, but he told me stories.
    He said to me, one day he said to me--
    I said, cook him Roggensuppe.
    What kind of soup?
    Roggensuppe, a German--
    Roggensuppe.
    Roggensuppe, yeah.
    Is that with bread?
    No, this is a powder like we have cereal here.
    And he told me, he said, take his bucket
    and go outside with a broken tray and sand.
    So take the bucket, clean it out for me,
    and then bring some water.
    But you get water over there.
    And I said, cook the Roggensuppe.
    Now, my German was not so good, but I could sand
    Roggensuppe, put in with water.
    Then I went outside, I took the bucket,
    and I rubbed it with sand.
    And I made it like it would be a mirror, you know.
    When I brought in, I washed it out, and I brought some water.
    I said, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    Here is water in a bottle of something, trust me anyway.
    And then he said I made a good job.
    He said, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    He gave me his spoon and had a little bucket myself, too.
    And I mixed it a little bit, maybe three or four minutes
    over the hot fire.
    He cooked it.
    He said, give me that bucket.
    You know, give me the bucket.
    He said-- he gave me two spoons and said, [GERMAN]..
    You know, I took with him-- and I had my own spoon.
    [GERMAN],, which is not a nice way of saying eating.
    No, like at an animal, at a dog.
    I said, I took it in my mouth, it smelled so good.
    And it was boiling.
    And I burned my lips, my tongue.
    And the [GERMAN] even he was nice to me.
    It's very--
    But still, out with you, you little dog.
    Little dog, you know.
    And then I came back later, and I cleaned out
    the bucket and all this.
    And then he started tell the stories one day.
    He said, [GERMAN] when I--
    [INAUDIBLE] in the English.
    [GERMAN]
    [SPEAKING GERMAN] yeah, I can remember he said it to me.
    [SPEAKING GERMAN]
    He said, I expressed--
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    No, [NON-ENGLISH], no.
    He said [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    If you were-- if you were in Auschwitz,
    you would no longer be alive.
    I wouldn't be [NON-ENGLISH].
    And I listened to him, and then he took the bottle of matches.
    You know, and I will never forget this.
    He said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    And I sit down.
    And he took the matches, he started
    laying one with other then built up a little barricade.
    He said, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    You know.
    And I took my match, put a little gasoline,
    and lit a match, [WHOOSH].
    But they're all going.
    He said it was, 1, 2, 3.
    I get rid of them.
    They were putting the crematorium's [INAUDIBLE],,
    you know.
    He told me--
    So in own words he was saying, he
    was showing to you with matchsticks, how he put together
    corpses and put those corpses together
    like logs, and very cleverly took some petrol
    and poured it on and burnt them much quicker
    than the crematoria, which was taking too long.
    And he was showing this to you.
    He was showing this to me.
    He was proud of this.
    And I said-- I didn't say nothing.
    [INAUDIBLE] say.
    But then when he was making the soup, you know,
    he said, let me taste the soup.
    He said, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    If you had poisoned it.
    Yeah, he gave me two spoons as he was talking to me.
    But he was not so bad.
    He didn't beat me up or nothing.
    But he was a real--
    but one time I had an experience with him.
    My father was beaten up, and I told him.
    He called the [NON-ENGLISH] to come to him.
    [SPEAKING GERMAN]
    Why have you beaten that man?
    Yeah, my father, you know.
    And he said, the next time you do a finger on him--
    because this [GERMAN] told us, I said I speak German,
    and this [GERMAN] told us--
    my father told me to go work somewhere else, because I
    was a good worker for them.
    That's why he beat up my father.
    I told this story to the Obersturmbannfuhrer.
    Then--
    The [GERMAN] got in trouble.
    He said that I have no right to do what I want.
    Then he called over 10 kilometers,
    and they had telephone whatever they had, the walkie-talkies.
    And he said, one finger on--
    but my father didn't work so long.
    he went in a different place.
    Well, it really sounds like there
    was an awful lot of ego involved in all of these--
    all of these-- I mean, cruelty and ego
    from those who had the power.
    It was--
    The power was very strong.
    Some of them was really mean people.
    And some of them was not so bad, but most of them-- but I was--
    I never saw a good German.
    And to point it out, I was working with the coals when
    a man walked by, a soldier from the [NON-ENGLISH],,
    from the Wehrmacht.
    And they said to me, [SPEAKING GERMAN]..
    Yeah, oh, you little one, you look like my brother.
    Yeah.
    And I said to him--
    I see the ranks and then the name.
    I said, I look like your brother?
    I said, I have black hair, [INAUDIBLE]
    and he got blonde, beautiful looking man.
    I still can see the face.
    And he said to me, [SPEAKING GERMAN],,
    because he saw that I go with a rucksack with a coal
    all the time.
    He said, see the little tree over there in the corner--
    in German, of course.
    He said, I will bring you a butterbrot.
    Oh, bring you a sandwich.
    Yeah.
    And I thought he was laughing.
    He said two days ago, to do this, you're going to have--
    I told my father.
    He said I should go.
    And I go over there, and I [INAUDIBLE] piece of paper.
    [INAUDIBLE] newspaper, just a piece of paper,
    opened up a [INAUDIBLE] a piece of bread I put in my pocket.
    And I couldn't eat it myself.
    And I want to serve it to my brother or father.
    I put it in my pocket, I brought it in the camp,
    and [? they ?] served.
    He was going on for a little while.
    But there was a luftalarm, a raid.
    They were do this not with me.
    I was going around free to put the coals for the soldiers.
    Not only for [NON-ENGLISH] but for the soldiers also.
    Then I was going--
    Thought like free.
    This is all in Lager I?
    In Lager I, yeah.
    And this was-- and I always was working on the [NON-ENGLISH],,
    the [NON-ENGLISH].
    On the construction site.
    Yeah.
    And the construction site, this was--
    everything was going on at the construction site.
    When I took from the [NON-ENGLISH] was not
    in the camp, he was in the construction site.
    But this guy is also in the construction site.
    He said to me, give me a [NON-ENGLISH],, and I said, OK.
    And I picked it up one time--
    at a time.
    It was a miracle.
    And he didn't-- when he saw this,
    he's talking to me or something.
    And then there was a raid, there was a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And the aeroplanes were 2 kilometers in the air.
    You know, the aeroplanes were soaring,
    aluminum foils and was making [IMITATES PLANE ENGINES]..
    And they were going--
    but everybody had to drop their shovel, whatever
    they were doing.
    There were still left of us some trees,
    because we were making an airport to run into the bunker
    for the [NON-ENGLISH].
    And there I was going in.
    It was a small place 50 feet away.
    It was an area for [INAUDIBLE].
    A lot of people to--
    [NON-ENGLISH],, they were working.
    Prisoners were there, yeah.
    When I go in, he was duty.
    You know, he was a soldier.
    He was duty also, you see.
    And they did-- and they had a rifle and they had a pistol.
    And one of them, when he was--
    I don't think he was Jewish.
    He was mixed over there this time.
    And one of the men called over.
    It was raining, and it was really nasty outside.
    I was sitting on my bag and the coals, you know.
    But even sitting-- the people sitting on the ground
    couldn't make a move or something.
    One of the men felt uncomfortable,
    and start crawling over, maybe about [INAUDIBLE] or something.
    And this good German who was giving me the butterbrod,
    he pulled out a pistol and just, bang, and shoot him.
    Here the aeroplanes, and whole hat fly away, a dum-dum bullet.
    And everybody gets sprayed with blood.
    And in two seconds, [IMITATES RAID SIREN] the alarm
    is--
    the raid alarm is out, and the men is without a hat,
    and they looked away.
    I didn't know what happened to the men.
    And this was-- so I told my father.
    He said, you didn't see nothing, then say nothing.
    A couple days later, I have to go to pick up the butterbrod.
    I go to pick up the butterbrod.
    I grab it, you know.
    And I see a [INAUDIBLE] And I said, oh, my goodness.
    I got caught.
    I raised up my head to see him.
    He said to me, [SPEAKING GERMAN]??
    [GERMAN]
    [GERMAN], yeah.
    What does that mean?
    Are you mad at me?
    Ah, [NON-ENGLISH].
    [SPEAKING GERMAN], yeah.
    Mm-hmm.
    I said to him, [SPEAKING GERMAN],, you know?
    And then he said, that swine, he could kill us all.
    He was walking around when the aeroplanes was in the air.
    He saved my life.
    2 kilometers in the air, the aeroplanes, you can see it.
    Then I said-- when I go sometime in my stories,
    I can't accuse all the Germans.
    But where I was, I never saw a good person.
    It's just a German, a little [INAUDIBLE] or something.
    I don't see good people, because these people,
    they were involved.
    They were not good.
    The good people didn't stand outside.
    They stayed away from this.
    This was my experience what I had--
    not one experience, a lot of experiences.
    A lot of them.
    So I want a kind of end what happened
    with you-- how much did your mom live when she came here?
    How many more years-- or did she another year or two after--
    No, she lived about two--
    She died in '63.
    '63.
    1963.
    So she was here about seven years.
    Not even this.
    No.
    Six years?
    They came-- they came to--
    hmm?
    It's OK.
    OK.
    They came to Germany, where my husband says they lived
    for a while with my parents in [NON-ENGLISH]..
    From there, they came to the States, all three of them.
    They made the papers, of course.
    Yeah.
    They didn't like it here as much,
    so they went back to Germany.
    It took [INAUDIBLE] years before things were settled.
    And then they settled over there,
    they came back to the States, and they stayed here.
    She lived a couple of years here,
    and then she died in 1963 in October.
    Here?
    Yeah, here in Baltimore.
    But when she came from Russia, she was already sick.
    When she came from the Soviet Union, yeah?
    To Israel, she was already sick.
    She was sick.
    She was without her family.
    Her brother treated her as good as he could.
    She worked there as a maid.
    And she had a very hard life after the war.
    Did you talk to her about it?
    Yes.
    Oh, yeah.
    Sure.
    I met her.
    She lived with us when they came to the States for a while.
    We had a small apartment at the time.
    They lived with us until they found an apartment here.
    And then they lived by themselves.
    At that time, his brother--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    OK.
    So I think I have--
    I have asked all the questions that I
    can think of about your mom.
    I'd like to ask about your brother.
    That's what I wanted to show you.
    Yeah.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    And she's over there.
    He was very sick after the war.
    Yes.
    Tell me.
    Tell me, when you mentioned he was sick,
    was he in the hospital for years?
    Yes.
    This is his concentration camp number.
    I see.
    This is me.
    Tell me, what is your--
    this is you?
    Yeah, after the war.
    And this is his brother.
    After the war.
    So to you--
    This is me.
    I was out of--
    Do you have a concentration camp number still on your arm?
    No, I never had it.
    That's why I showed you.
    This is the number that [CROSS TALK]
    So your number, can you read out what your number was?
    Yeah.
    This was my concentration number.
    Yeah.
    What was it?
    This is it, right in here.
    No.
    I think it's this top one.
    No, here.
    [INAUDIBLE] I see this.
    This is 82291.
    That was your concentration camp number.
    They sewed it on my shirt, yeah.
    And you didn't have a stamp.
    No.
    Not in our camp.
    Not in your camp.
    Nobody got a-- nobody got a stamp.
    It was a working camp.
    I see.
    At that time, they didn't--
    And this is after the war when I--
    this was in [NON-ENGLISH].
    This was Lager I. I organized--
    And this is a photograph--
    This is a photograph of my father--
    --of your father--
    --myself.
    And I used to have the originals, too.
    No.
    No, I have to give it to the Holocaust--
    The originals are in the Holocaust-- we gave those away.
    This is Eisenhower, the picture.
    Yeah, this is Eisenhower in here.
    But right now here, I have a picture where I stand with him,
    but I don't know what has happened to the picture.
    Probably in the Holocaust--
    [CROSS TALK]
    Maybe.
    And this is [INAUDIBLE] after the war [INAUDIBLE]..
    So I won't-- because right now as we're taping,
    this will never come up on the tape,
    that we're looking at these photos,
    or photocopies of photos.
    I'd like to talk a little bit about your brother.
    He was your younger brother.
    No, the older brother.
    The older brother.
    And his name?
    Was Itzik.
    Itzik.
    And.
    Tell me a little bit how it was-- it came to be--
    tell me the circumstances where he was beaten
    so that he got to be so sick.
    Right.
    I was going with the bag with the coals.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Yeah.
    I was--
    You were going--
    With the coal--
    And this was in Lager I.
    In Lager I, yeah.
    And I was in the [NON-ENGLISH] in [GERMAN]..
    In the construction site.
    Right.
    I was going there, and I was carrying the coals to go by.
    But I always find a way to go by and see where they are.
    Sometime I have something in my pocket.
    What was your brother's job?
    What did he have to do?
    He was working.
    He was working on the [NON-ENGLISH] with everybody.
    I was working there in the beginning, too,
    but I said, I speak German.
    One of the Germans took me and said--
    and they gave me this--
    the new profession [INAUDIBLE] this.
    And then I have a lot of experiences from this also.
    [INAUDIBLE] work.
    But my brother was working there,
    and it was snowing outside.
    And I was going with a bag of coals,
    and he was in [NON-ENGLISH].
    And the 12 o'clock is lunch time.
    They used to give lunch for the people.
    They took it, a [NON-ENGLISH] you know.
    And my brother--
    I didn't know my brother was chosen
    to go to bring the soup for the group where they was working.
    The man was working with him, working with him,
    the [NON-ENGLISH],, he was taller him.
    He says, I can't--
    [INAUDIBLE] milk can, you know, with soup.
    And he was shorter.
    Even the [INAUDIBLE] was not a [INAUDIBLE] fellow.
    [INAUDIBLE] the same size with him now.
    But luckily, this is [INAUDIBLE] to survive.
    Then they were working.
    I saw my brother walking and carrying the soup.
    And I didn't go there were the roads,
    there were the trains, where they're going by there's snow.
    And somehow, he touched one of them, and he fall--
    So the train rails, he tripped over a train rail?
    Right.
    [NON-ENGLISH] was really bags where they put in the cement,
    you know.
    He tripped over on this.
    Because the other one was taller,
    the soup spilled right on him.
    And he was not far away from the group where they were working.
    And [INAUDIBLE] I was going to go by.
    And I saw it from far away.
    He fall down, and all this hot soup was water, really
    from the [GERMAN].
    The foreman, took the same pipe that he was carrying the pipe.
    It was a long pipe, maybe 5 foot.
    And he grabbed him, and he said, [SPEAKING GERMAN]??
    And he just took this stick, the pipe,
    and he gave him right over the back one time, and he fall down.
    And another time, and my father was there working
    the same place, because he's standing around for the soup.
    And I saw it.
    And I had a bag, and I was running through.
    And he was laying down on the ground, and I was screaming,
    Itzik, Itzik, Itzik!
    And there was blood coming out of the mouth.
    And my father-- and the [NON-ENGLISH]----
    did a good job is looking out for the peoples who
    was working for him.
    Right.
    And he beats him up there.
    And I was going to go up.
    There was somehow he was [SPEAKING GERMAN]..
    He says to you, What are you doing here?
    Go away from here.
    Yeah, go away.
    And you tell him that it's your brother.
    This is my brother.
    He didn't give a damn.
    He didn't care.
    But there were other soldiers around there,
    and they felt a little pity.
    But somehow we-- we talked and talked to him,
    he opened up the eyes, [INAUDIBLE] seen there
    and there was out.
    We were still in the concentration camp.
    It was luckily was maybe about six or four
    months before the liberation.
    But he was strong.
    He was-- and he was going down and down and down.
    And we were liberated, you know, after the war
    when the Americans came.
    And they found him, see him right away.
    They right away put him-- and we were liberated,
    liberated from the American army, you know.
    OK.
    I want to-- here again, I want to interrupt a bit.
    So at that point, when you see that your brother opens his eyes
    and after having been beaten with that metal pipe,
    were you allowed to take him away?
    No.
    No, I couldn't.
    So he had to lay there.
    He stand up somehow, but--
    I was staying a little bit, and he said, [NON-ENGLISH],,
    the [NON-ENGLISH].
    But there were other Germans, where
    they felt a little bit sorry.
    They didn't push me--
    But did they-- oh, so they didn't-- but what happened with
    your brother?
    Did he have to go back to work?
    Was he allowed to sit down?
    Yeah.
    He stand up.
    I don't know what happened, because he kicked me away.
    My father was there, and there was a group with people.
    It was lunch time.
    They should be eating.
    But and then when the time was going up to go back to--
    from the working place to the camp,
    it was maybe about 3 kilometers.
    Then I managed to grab him.
    We were going in one line.
    The soldiers [INAUDIBLE],, because you
    couldn't run away nowhere.
    There was empty spaces.
    The [NON-ENGLISH] took my brother, and my father,
    and we helped him walk in the camp in Lager I.
    And since then he was going down and down.
    So did he have to go back to work after that?
    Was he able to stay in the back barracks?
    No, there was no pity for him.
    They were going to make the work.
    But luckily--
    He was weaker and weaker and weaker.
    Weaker and weaker.
    And then from the camp, when the camp was liquidated,
    we have to go back to Dachau, because we were going--
    then they were starting the [NON-ENGLISH] to go.
    Then we were--
    The [NON-ENGLISH] meaning the death march.
    The death march.
    We came from Lager I. They liquidated Lager I,
    and they said to everybody, you're
    going to be traded in over there.
    We walked from Lager I to Dachau.
    It was wintertime.
    About how many kilometers, do you know?
    Or how long did it take you?
    I would say it takes a long time, because you
    couldn't go through the city.
    They were hiding [INAUDIBLE].
    It takes maybe three days.
    You could do it maybe in two hours.
    We were walking around, walking around, and we came to Dachau.
    And in Dachau, there were many--
    And your brother too.
    My brother too.
    And we were holding my brother and all this,
    and I lost my shoes.
    And all of a sudden, I couldn't walk anymore.
    And I [? put ?] in the Appellplatz,
    where they counted people.
    And I saw the Dachau that [INAUDIBLE] there was before.
    Then we came to Lager I, we came to Dachau.
    And then from Dachau, the train left to go back to Lager I.
    This was the opposite.
    We came over there, and when we supposed there were
    a lot of people were on trains.
    We said, this group is walking.
    And they gave us some-- a can of something to take with us.
    It was meat or whatever form Dachau.
    And we went, maybe 1,000 or 2,000 people from this Lager I,
    and mixed up a little, and we're going with a death march from
    Dachau to Tyrol to [PLACE NAME].
    I was liberated in [PLACE NAME].
    And this was a--
    What's the name of the town?
    [PLACE NAME]
    [PLACE NAME]?
    Yeah.
    And that's why we're going there for a couple days.
    In the rain and snow, I lost my shoes.
    I didn't have shoes.
    And then I have so many stories [INAUDIBLE]..
    I can't [INAUDIBLE] stuff.
    But this was we were going to the-- with the death march.
    And the [NON-ENGLISH],, you know, was running us.
    Dogs and soldiers, and soldiers have to watch it.
    If you move out of the line, a dog bites you,
    and then you're finished.
    But I remember the places where people died.
    And that's why I have [INAUDIBLE] that
    point of the finger.
    And we were going this way.
    And the way-- this one important thing was that we had to stop,
    because the German army was going back and forth,
    and back and forth, and they have to clean up the streets.
    [NON-ENGLISH] was a country street.
    Then they put us away in a place.
    There was a [INAUDIBLE] at the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    I didn't know in the back were several people in the back.
    When I say maybe a thousand people laid--
    they have to lay down and rest, because the army has to go by.
    And a woman, a German woman, walked out,
    heavy one, with two [? kilos ?] of milk
    were given the soldiers to drink and of course for the dogs.
    And we were laying there, [INAUDIBLE]
    was not too far away.
    Later, when I was liberated, and there
    was in a DP camp in Fohrenwald.
    And I worked for the doctor which I mentioned,
    and they treat me like I would be the-- a son.
    He said, take-- you can take my car.
    I'm not going to Munich today.
    Get your friends and have a good time.
    I took-- I have two guys from [NON-ENGLISH]..
    One of them saw his parents--
    From Hungary.
    From [NON-ENGLISH],, yeah, from Budapest.
    And one was Romanian.
    And one of the guys saw his parents buried alive.
    They dug a grave in [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And they put [? 40 ?] people alive--
    his sister, and his mother and father.
    And he was hiding in the attic in the house.
    And somehow, he survives.
    I don't know exactly the story.
    But he told me the story the way he
    saw his parents and his sister get killed.
    And here I'm going this way, then
    there's the city woman walked out and give
    the milk to the soldiers.
    And this was after the war, I was liberated.
    Here the men told me, the doctor said, take the--
    take the car, take a couple of friends, and go for a ride.
    I took two girls.
    The girls were 15 years old.
    I was maybe--
    I get myself [? halted, ?] I wouldn't
    get the driver's license.
    And I was only 17 or something.
    And I took them for the ride.
    And here I'm driving on the highway.
    I was going to [INAUDIBLE] place, when I see--
    all of a sudden I see--
    I remember this place, I never see the rest of [INAUDIBLE]..
    I was never inside.
    And I go--
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    I stopped by [INAUDIBLE] I was driving on an American license.
    And the doctor gave me a coupon for gasoline.
    There was a [INAUDIBLE] you know, couldn't buy gas.
    And I stopped there, and I said, let's go in.
    And [INAUDIBLE] we're going to have a drink,
    like a soda or something.
    And I go in, and I saw this place is a bar,
    you know, not so big.
    And I said, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    They didn't have too much beer or something.
    Yeah.
    Dear lady, I'd like to have a lemonade.
    Yeah.
    For my friends, too.
    And I have the big [? stuff ?] because the doctor gave us
    some money.
    I was walking in, the [INAUDIBLE]..
    And I said to the Frau, [SPEAKING GERMAN] big lady,
    you know.
    Maybe you can remember, I was outside.
    And I remember you.
    You were giving milk to the soldiers, you know?
    When I said, she said, [SPEAKING GERMAN] she
    started to get mad at me.
    [SPEAKING GERMAN], you know?
    What are you saying now?
    Why are you lying?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    She said to me, why are you lying?
    And my friend is bitter, you know?
    And he couldn't stand this.
    He said, my friend is not a liar, to her, you know.
    And she started getting a little bit mad.
    And she turned around and, [SPEAKING GERMAN]..
    There were steps, [? more ?] steps.
    A man came down, a German.
    I told you Frankenstein is not so big.
    I think he was 7 foot.
    A [NON-ENGLISH].
    And he said-- he came to the last step.
    And I stand up with two girls, myself, and my two friends,
    you know?
    And he said, [SPEAKING GERMAN] get out, you dirty Jews.
    And when my friend heard "dirty Jews,"
    he ran toward this even stronger, a nice--
    he was [INAUDIBLE].
    I have a picture from him.
    He was muscular.
    He was going in Germany, in Munich, every girl,
    every woman looked at him.
    He was a [INAUDIBLE] beauty.
    He was not too long in the concentration camp.
    Can I open for you?
    No, I'll be fine, thank you.
    And then, and he started [SPEAKING GERMAN] Jews, get out,
    my friend ran towards the table, you know,
    grabbed a bottle from the [INAUDIBLE] and cracked it,
    and he spilled all the water, and he ran to again the German.
    And this German, he's [INAUDIBLE] soldier
    or something.
    They never found out.
    And he took that towel, the German,
    and he tried to grab the bottle from him.
    But I didn't know what's happening in the back,
    because there were a lot of people in the back,
    and I was-- it was the nighttime.
    I saw that the milk [INAUDIBLE],, she opened up the back door,
    and she kept on shouting, hilfe, hilfe--
    help, help-- when all of a sudden three soldiers
    coming in from the MP, you know, from the American soldiers,
    with rifles.
    And they didn't speak so good German,
    and with a [NON-ENGLISH],, interpreter.
    An interpreter.
    He said, what's happened?
    And I said, [INAUDIBLE] the German's standing like this.
    And she said to me, my friend here
    was suddenly going to fight with him, you know?
    And I start trying to explain what's happened to them
    in German [NON-ENGLISH].
    And somehow, we didn't work it out, you know?
    And then all of a sudden, two men came in.
    One is a chaplain with a cross, and one got four--
    two stripes of gold on his [INAUDIBLE]..
    So that would be an American military officer.
    He was American.
    One was a priest and was with a chaplain.
    And he came in, and he said to the [INAUDIBLE]
    and the [NON-ENGLISH],, he saw the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    First of all, I start talking.
    I got [INAUDIBLE] took up the rifle.
    I knew it was a Polack or something.
    And I spoke to English, he didn't speak English, he said--
    he pushed me.
    [SPEAKING GERMAN], I said.
    And the [NON-ENGLISH], he was--
    The translator.
    --the interpreter, I don't know what he said to them.
    And the German stood like this, the bigger [INAUDIBLE],,
    the Frankenstein, when all of a sudden two people walking in,
    one with a cross, and one with two stripes.
    One with two stripes, he said to me,
    he said-- he was already experienced
    with what's going on.
    He was liberating the camps.
    And he said to me, [NON-ENGLISH]??
    What happens here?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, but not a good German.
    And a Jew, this is very similar, like German.
    I speak German, but I speak Jews, too.
    And I said to him, there is an Jewish saying.
    If you're one of ours, you call it amkho.
    Amkho?
    Amkho, yeah, a friend.
    I said, amkho, [INAUDIBLE].
    Then I start talking to him.
    And he just-- and then I start telling him,
    and the German's standing from far away.
    And then I tell him--
    he said, what's happened?
    I said, we didn't do nothing.
    We came in to get some--
    I want to pay for the lemonade, and I remembered she came out,
    she gave milk for the soldiers.
    I'm not against it.
    But she said I'm lying.
    My friend lost his parents.
    And I told him, the chaplain, the way my friend
    lost his parents.
    And I can honestly get a little bit--
    anyway, we told him the way his parents get killed
    and the sister.
    You know, there's the Jewish chaplain translated
    to the Christian chaplain.
    One of the-- excuse me.
    One of them took the handkerchief,
    and then he wiped the eyes.
    Both of them took a handkerchief and wiped their eyes?
    They were crying, one of them.
    The [NON-ENGLISH],, The priest and the Jew.
    And then one of my friends, and they said to him,
    the [NON-ENGLISH] he came in, he said the girls should go back
    in the car, you know.
    And I was there still-- now, of course,
    we didn't sitting on the floor anymore.
    And the girls go back to the car,
    and I'm standing there and trying to explain,
    but the [NON-ENGLISH],, the interpreter.
    The translator
    He didn't need him anymore, because this man understood me.
    And I told him what's happened to my friend's parents,
    and I told him exactly the way they got killed.
    And he got tears in the eyes, and the other chaplain--
    one of them--
    one's a priest, and one's a rabbi.
    And they were wiped out their eyes.
    And one of my friends said, this is a Nazi, at him, you know.
    He's a Nazi.
    And one of these priests from the chaplain, I think the rabbi,
    the [INAUDIBLE] said, [NON-ENGLISH],, open up the door,
    bring in three soldiers.
    It was full of soldiers.
    It was a base in the [INAUDIBLE] the American army.
    I didn't know what was in the back.
    And they come in again, a couple of soldiers.
    And they said, search the house, you know.
    And there was a law this time after the war, maybe,
    but I hear maybe a year later, this is not a lot
    of [NON-ENGLISH] or something.
    But they start searching the house.
    They took rifles with knives and all this.
    And then my friend, [NON-ENGLISH] said,
    pointed a finger to one of them--
    he's a Nazi.
    He was standing in a big--
    The Frankenstein person.
    The Frankenstein.
    Really, he hits the ceiling, he was so tall.
    And this chaplain, he said, [NON-ENGLISH],, you know.
    He opened up his shirt, and [INAUDIBLE]
    took off the shirt completely.
    It was a good, strong man, hairy a little bit.
    He said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    And he saw "SS", a real "SS."
    And right away, we saw "SS."
    And then he opened up the door, [INAUDIBLE]
    came in a couple soldiers.
    You know, the [NON-ENGLISH],, anyway they were soldiers
    already in the house, taking off a machine gun and rifles.
    And they said to me, how come you have this?
    But the [NON-ENGLISH] the interpreter,
    he said they didn't know.
    They didn't listen to the radio that
    said we have to give it back or something.
    But since they saw this "SS," right away the military
    soldiers, they [INAUDIBLE] put the hands in the back,
    and they put the chains and stuff, take them out.
    And she starts saying, [SPEAKING GERMAN]??
    What do you do to my husband?
    You know, to me.
    I said, if you wouldn't be a liar,
    it wouldn't happen nothing.
    We would go away.
    We'd pay for the lemonade, whatever,
    we wouldn't bother you.
    But you didn't say the truth in my eyes.
    She was lying.
    I was there.
    And that's what the story what I had
    the experience when we were--
    after the liberation.
    But there are so many stories that I don't believe it myself
    this happened, too.
    Unbelievable.
    Unbelievable.
    And so this is--
    this is part of what I wanted to find out
    about what was it like in Germany
    after the war for you and the DP camps, and for your brother.
    So after the Americans found him, that has liberated him,
    and what was the town?
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    [NON-ENGLISH] no, my brother was in--
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    Excuse me?
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    [NON-ENGLISH]?
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    It's near--
    How do you spell it?
    No, no it's away from [NON-ENGLISH]..
    How do you spell it, because--
    I'm not sure.
    [NON-ENGLISH] in Germany.
    That's a popular place.
    It's simply, I'd like to trace--
    I would like to trace the route, you know, eventually, the route.
    Yeah, tell-- you know the route.
    I know the route, yeah.
    You go from--
    We were there.
    After the war, we went there.
    We got to [NON-ENGLISH]
    We were there like [CROSS TALK] ago.
    OK.
    Yeah, we've traveled over there.
    I was [? liberated ?] in the street.
    Oh, so [NON-ENGLISH].
    So it's V-A-T, and then K-I-R-C-H-E-N. Vat Kirchen.
    Yeah.
    If I remember correctly.
    And it's near [NON-ENGLISH].
    Maybe D--
    [NON-ENGLISH] is exactly like [NON-ENGLISH]..
    Or [NON-ENGLISH]
    No.
    No, not-- Vat.
    Vat.
    Vat Kirchen.
    OK.
    And it's actually a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    It's a little village, huh?
    It's a little village.
    And they got liberated in a--
    Not too far away from there.
    Yeah.
    In--
    In [NON-ENGLISH].
    But a quarter of a kilometer.
    They put us in a grave.
    They put in soldiers around with machine guns.
    And it was in April.
    And I was liberated 2nd of May.
    And it was very cold and raining, when all of a sudden
    it starts snowing.
    And the grave was, there was-- they were standing around
    with guns, they were going to kill us over there.
    But all of a sudden came out such a snowstorm,
    the snow was maybe 2 foot falling, and we were there,
    [INAUDIBLE] all [INAUDIBLE] closed up with snow.
    And I was holding up, and my brother
    was so weak, that we were holding up each other,
    because we were walking with his mouth.
    And we fell asleep, and it was warm under the snow.
    And then all of a sudden, I hear a little bit noise, one big tap,
    and I take away the snow from my head,
    and I stick out my head, I see nobody.
    But all of a sudden, people start moving around.
    And I said, Papa, to my father--
    are you there?
    And my brother-- and I, we get into grave,
    we said we're going to-- people made the prayers.
    We thought we're going to be dead.
    We saw one soldier with a rifle an old man, walking around,
    everybody's gone.
    And the man was [NON-ENGLISH].
    He was a leader in the concentration
    camp, a Jewish guy.
    He was very smart.
    He worked in the camp.
    And the [NON-ENGLISH] working, He was a leader.
    He was a construction site, he was a leader.
    Yeah, he was.
    He was always a leader in the ghetto, but very smart guy.
    The Germans-- spoke German but I said with him things.
    But he said we should--
    [INAUDIBLE] from far away.
    We said it's not too far away.
    We saw white hanging towels or something
    hanging out from the windows.
    And there is no soldiers, you know,
    just the one German soldier.
    Then this [NON-ENGLISH] said, what's to stand in the grave
    and be all wet from the snow, let's start walking.
    Because we start walking.
    There was a dead horse.
    I'm sure a lot of people's told this story, dead horse.
    A lot of people started grabbing the dead horse.
    When the heat it was [NON-ENGLISH],,
    what do you call those?
    These white bulbs was growing--
    Ah, he had foam at his mouth.
    Is that what you're saying?
    No, the--
    Oh, the maggots?
    The maggots, yeah.
    Full with maggots, and people were shaking it up
    and eating raw meat.
    But me and my father didn't touch it.
    My brother was very weak already.
    And I was even hungrier, but I couldn't look at this.
    And we start walking into this dorf--
    Into the village.
    And this dorf, we spread out.
    And all of a sudden, they came from other places,
    we were from Lager, camp number one,
    we came from Dachau, walking out with death march.
    And the death march was not so pleasant.
    But when they came into this place, they spread out.
    And the [NON-ENGLISH] said-- the [NON-ENGLISH] said, you can--
    everybody go, then we go in a place.
    It was a [NON-ENGLISH],, a house with cows and chickens.
    When the Germans left, me, my father and brother,
    even a few other people, we spread out over there.
    OK.
    And you wanted to say--
    The story with the dead horse is written up in a book
    that a friend of his wrote.
    The book is called Light One Candle.
    Light One Candle?
    Oh, Solly Ganor?
    I have the book--
    Solly Ganor, yeah.
    But he--
    Solly Ganor.
    Yeah, but he--
    He was there, and he writes about that--
    The dead horse.
    The dead horse.
    He was there, yeah.
    He was liberated with me.
    But he's a friend of mine, but he did a little bit in story
    in the book with his--
    Oh, you know Solly Ganor?
    I don't know him, I know the book, yeah.
    A few things he was hiding--
    I have letters from him.
    We correspond.
    We used to.
    But I was a little bit against-- he said--
    I even said on the tape, but--
    What he says is--
    Oh.
    It's OK.
    I will pause.
    Just a second.
    We're going to change tr--
    Now we're taping again after a bit of a pause.
    And let's see if we can.
    Excuse me for a second.
    OK.
    So we're talking about how you get into this small village.
    And Bergman, who was one of the leaders at the construction
    site in Lager Einz advises that everybody scatter.
    Right, right.
    And then what happens?
    Then we are going up with no soldiers,
    were none of that in the group.
    And even a little bit later, [INAUDIBLE] was independent.
    We came in this little town.
    We didn't know what was happening.
    But the Germans already put out the white flags.
    Not flags, there were towels, and bedspreads,
    whatever they had.
    And me and my father and brother, and a few other people,
    come in this place, and we just spread out all over this thing.
    There was also coming from different camp.
    Not only from that death march, but coming from other camps.
    I don't know from where they came to us.
    And non-Jews and Jewish people and all this.
    And it was maybe a day later, we heard in the morning
    like noises, noises.
    And it was May, the 2nd of May.
    When I go out, I was just tired and all this.
    I see a tank.
    And everybody was running to the tank with a white star.
    I didn't know what the white star is because the Russians,
    they have a red star.
    When my ran to the other side, to my brother,
    couldn't even move.
    He was very sick.
    This time my brother and my father were there.
    And I go out and I see, opened up the tank,
    and were the black soldiers and the white soldiers.
    Americans!
    Everybody running, almost get killed.
    They run and the tanks was going.
    And the people running, the trucks.
    A whole army's coming.
    [GERMAN] they were coming.
    This way, I run back to the house over there.
    I said, papa, come out.
    I says, come out, to my brother.
    But he couldn't get out.
    My father came out a to see it and go right back in.
    He was so weak.
    And then, of course, they were starting to throw,
    the soldier was throwing candies and cans.
    I got a can of carrots, and I couldn't open it up.
    I didn't know what it is.
    And I saw the [GERMAN],, and they said--
    they opened it up and they said, slow.
    I know that for slow is langsam.
    A lot of people eat it.
    They had diarrhea.
    Some of them are so skinny.
    The sun was in May, 2nd of May.
    It was a beautiful day this time, after the snow.
    It was the month in that way.
    Then I could see.
    This is the first time a saw a person.
    I saw the inside from them, the sun was so strong on them.
    It was a [GERMAN].
    You could see the way the heart pump.
    I never saw a person like this, so skinny.
    A man was walking with the hand hanging down.
    I thought it is a dead person walked.
    The Americans right away gripped people like this,
    put him right away stretchers and take him.
    And the army took it over.
    And then when my brother came out, it was the 2nd of May.
    If you didn't bring him outside, they
    said everybody should go there.
    It was a [GERMAN],, a place they took out
    the air force for the Germans.
    And we supposed to go two kilometers in a place,
    not in this little [GERMAN].
    But my brother--
    Couldn't do it.
    Couldn't do it.
    I was walking.
    And my father didn't want to let him alone.
    He came-- the ambulances come, and people,
    they check out my brother.
    Right away they had the walkie talkies.
    And there came a Jeep, open Jeep,
    and they put him right in the Jeep.
    And my father didn't want to let him go by hisself.
    And they went with him and took him into the [GERMAN]..
    [GERMAN]?
    It's a big building.
    It was for the Air Force, for the Germans.
    From the Luftwaffe?
    From the Luftwaffe, yeah.
    A [GERMAN].
    That's what it is.
    I think it was called the [GERMAN]..
    And there was a beautiful, big area.
    And there was maybe 10 or 15 buildings, big ones.
    It was like a camp for the--
    not I can say a camp.
    Like a [GERMAN] for the soldiers.
    Barracks and things, for the soldiers.
    Not barracks.
    They were really big brick buildings.
    Nice, with three floors or two floors.
    And anyway, they took my brother and father.
    And I was walking.
    I was capable to walk.
    But I met him over there.
    And from there, of course, they checked him out and they put him
    right away--
    In the hospital.
    Carried him right away to Galting.
    My father didn't want to leave him all by hisself.
    Then I stayed there.
    They let me go with him.
    Then I found out where Galting is.
    I didn't know where it is.
    And all of a sudden, we didn't stay there.
    I met Eisenhower in this place.
    No, no.
    I didn't met him there.
    And there, all of a sudden, they came.
    Oh, we're going to go to Feldafing.
    And then I go to Feldafing.
    And I said, where is Galting because I
    know my father and brother.
    Then one of the soldiers spoke a little German and all this.
    Says, Galting is not too far away, maybe five kilometer, six.
    Then I said OK.
    Then I was really safe.
    This was not a quarantine.
    Then came a quarantine.
    And then it was off quarantine.
    Then I took the liberty, and I said to the [GERMAN]
    the people were Germans also around there.
    They said, you go with the railroad track.
    You're going right into the hospital.
    This going right in place by the hospital.
    Then I took myself.
    I had the guards.
    When I was walking I hear a train around through the tracks.
    I could hear it.
    It was not so far away.
    And I came in.
    They didn't want to let me in because there was TB.
    I said there's my brother and father.
    But somebody put me in a--
    something over my face--
    A mask?
    A mask.
    And I go in.
    So my brother was laying in a bed,
    and my father's in the same room.
    And then they didn't let me stay too long [INAUDIBLE]..
    There was all of a sudden American soldiers.
    I didn't speak any English, but some of them
    speak a little German.
    Maybe they were Jewish.
    They said they're going back to Feldafing.
    Then they took me.
    I didn't have to walk on the way back.
    And this way I started getting involved with my brother.
    And so tell me, how long did he stay in the hospital?
    Six years.
    Six years.
    Six years.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    I go up from Feldafing in Foehrenwald.
    And I meet and go out with boys, and girls, and friends.
    And we're growing up already, and he was still in the hospital
    because they was taking out a kidney there.
    And the TB.
    And his foot was hanging down on a stretcher.
    And he remained with a stiff leg.
    He survived, but--
    And it all came from the time he was
    beaten because of that kettle, when he
    tripped over one of the rails.
    Right.
    And it was from that strong beating.
    OK.
    They knocked a kidney out on the spot.
    Because he still had to pretend that he
    is able to work and do things, so he just
    forced himself to go on.
    So his kidney was ruined from that point.
    Yeah, he was bleeding, and the kidney was--
    It was finished.
    He started to bleed from his mouth,
    so they knew already that he was finished.
    But somehow he was still very young.
    It was strength of will.
    To begin with, he was strong boy.
    So he made it till then.
    Then, when he was liberated, when
    the doctors and the soldiers saw him,
    then they took him right away to the hospital.
    Which he stayed in Galting.
    Galting is a little--
    Galting.
    Yeah, Galting.
    It's a little--
    A little town, yeah.
    A town.
    He stayed there.
    And they found out that he had TB.
    And the penicillin wasn't available at that time.
    It was in 1945.
    I mean, Fleming had invented it, but it wasn't available.
    Somehow, through the joint, they got to some couples
    in South Africa.
    And those people sent him the penicillin.
    They gave it to him so he--
    Could get stronger.
    Yes, stronger.
    But the TB settled in his knee.
    And because he was so young and they had his leg lifted up,
    the bones grew together and he remained with a stiff leg
    all his life.
    Until 19, when they came here, he
    was also sort of like a sick person.
    He had very high blood pressure.
    And he wasn't-- he died at 45.
    And what year was that?
    That was in 1972.
    1972.
    So your brother lived until 1972,
    but he was 45 years old when he died.
    Yeah, he was a year--
    He was a young person.
    He was a year older from me.
    I let my wife tell because when I start talking these stories,
    I get a little bit, uh--
    Well, of course.
    It's your brother.
    I know all your stories by heart.
    Of course.
    Yes, she knows the stories.
    Very sad stories.
    And this is--
    And it's very tragic.
    He was a nice man.
    He was a very kind person.
    He was very nice.
    He took care of our daughter, Jean.
    He would love to walk her in the carriage.
    Did he ever marry, your brother?
    My brother met somebody in Frankfurt.
    He was not really married.
    And then he came over here when they
    made the papers without her.
    And then, all of a sudden, half a year later, she
    said she got a baby from him.
    And then we found out--
    That he wasn't able to have any children.
    My brother couldn't have any children.
    And my father was good-hearted, and myself, too.
    And we accepted him.
    My father was watching the baby, this little boy.
    I don't know where he is.
    But it's not the boy's fault, the baby's.
    But it's the mother.
    And then I think I hear she passed away also, years ago.
    She went back to Germany.
    And the boy, I don't know.
    He's somewhere around here.
    And I feel bad because he's supposed to be my brother's, but
    we know exactly it's not my brother's because the joint took
    blood tests.
    They tested.
    They tested him.
    They told us, this not your brother's.
    But my father--
    But you know, she gave him a little life.
    And my brother looked away, and my father
    looked away, because it make him feel this is some--
    He's also somebody.
    We have Eisenhower's-- actually, Sherman Adams' letter,
    but it's in Yiddish.
    Someplace we have the original.
    I don't know where I put it.
    This was translated.
    Hang on just a second.
    Yiddish.
    Yiddish.
    The names.
    When did your father write this particular--
    Oh, this years ago.
    He did a lot of writing.
    He always liked to put in.
    How long did your father live?
    He was living with us.
    When he died, he was 70--
    One.
    One.
    No, he was 79.
    79, yeah.
    He was born in 1900 also, so he actually--
    So he died in 1979.
    '79, yeah.
    So he buried a child before he died.
    Oh, yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Let's see [INAUDIBLE].
    You got the names of [INAUDIBLE]..
    It's names of your family.
    So you know what I would like to do then--
    I sense you have lots of stories, truly, lots of stories.
    Oh, yeah.
    I can say.
    I can keep you a day and a night with this.
    But I'd like for people to know--
    in this time that we've been talking,
    we've jumped around a lot.
    We haven't kept chronologically.
    But the reason why I've kind of not done that, or allowed
    that to happen, is because we have your first interview, which
    is quite chronological.
    And so a lot of the things that you're referring to,
    if somebody sees your first interview,
    they'll be able to understand what point it is.
    Yeah, a lot of stories [INAUDIBLE]..
    I still remember it, and I still talk about it.
    Maybe in these time it seems a little bit out of tune,
    but this real stories.
    It's not made up, like people write a book.
    No, no.
    Some people write a book.
    And they want to make theirself important and all this.
    But I have stories, for instance, when I worked
    for the Obersturmbannführer.
    This you can record if you like.
    This is a story what he told me how to--
    And the Obersturmbannführer, you worked for him
    at the Raudondvaris, or in Lager Einz.
    No, in Lager Einz.
    So we're talking about Lager Einz in Germany.
    Yeah, Raudondvaris had experience, too.
    Did he tell you about job he had we he worked at it?
    Well, that wasn't very clear.
    All right.
    He was in charge of keeping their boots with the [GERMAN]..
    For the [GERMAN].
    Yeah, he was in charge of heating it.
    That's what I thought.
    So it was heating--
    Yeah, not one.
    When I got taken for the [INAUDIBLE],,
    I thought that this is only for the Obersturmbannführer.
    No, [GERMAN].
    For all the soldiers.
    You had to heat up their barracks?
    Barracks.
    Their offices?
    What kind of--
    Barracks, barracks.
    They keep them warm.
    There was no bed, no nothing.
    A little table, they were sitting down eating.
    [GERMAN]
    Yeah, [GERMAN].
    [GERMAN]
    Oh, I see.
    The guarding post.
    It's sort of like the place--
    the little sort of place where they have to sit and guard.
    Yeah.
    No, not even [GERMAN] to go and to warm up.
    It was all over around the [GERMAN]..
    But there were episodes from the same German bosses.
    They made for him the water.
    The cooked the [GERMAN] for a murderer.
    This I would like you to tape if you want to.
    Sure.
    I can tell you, this man got crazy in this train.
    It was very close when they were there.
    And he said he's going [INAUDIBLE] and go to Budapest
    and eat.
    Told me to take up cable, big cable of water.
    It was heavy.
    That I should make fire.
    I should cook the water.
    I didn't know what he wants to do with this.
    Who who told you that?
    The Obersturmbannführer?
    The Sturmbannführer.
    This was talk to Hitler, was stronger than the [INAUDIBLE]
    is, a murderer.
    Anyway, he made this--
    Kettle of water.
    I made the fire.
    I cooked the water.
    And I didn't know what he wanted to do with this.
    When I didn't know, the soldiers came in
    and said the man is crazy, sitting on the train.
    When I walked out to get water, he
    said [INAUDIBLE] is driving the train,
    you know he's sitting [INAUDIBLE] one
    for the [INAUDIBLE].
    And he's going to Budapest.
    And there are German soldiers [INAUDIBLE] father, father.
    Then they came to the Obersturmbannführer
    and told him this.
    And then, when they told him this,
    he told me to get this water, to bring and cook the water.
    And I thought this is water, you know, whatever.
    I said, for what?
    It was so heavy.
    It was hot.
    And he was looking for something to take the [GERMAN] something.
    To take the what in something?
    I couldn't take off the bucket to the water.
    He took it off.
    When he start putting it on the floor, they call two soldiers.
    And I was following him.
    And he walks out the side.
    And in maybe about 50 foot or 60 foot
    was the train, the broken train with the sand, with the coal
    still in.
    That's where they washed in the bucket.
    And he walked over to him and said, [GERMAN]??
    Hi, my boy.
    Where are you driving?
    And he said, [GERMAN] Budapest.
    He's going to Budapest.
    He said, [GERMAN] Budapest?
    [GERMAN]
    I have my wife and children.
    He had his wife and children there.
    His father's not [INAUDIBLE].
    When he picked up the jar, the soldiers
    put the bucket over there to keep it with the water.
    And he said, [GERMAN].
    And they picked it up, strong like a lion, like this.
    And put him right over the head.
    Poured all the boiling water over his head.
    Over the head.
    Little [INAUDIBLE].
    Everything came off of him, and he got crazy.
    He was running away from what they were doing.
    The skin came off.
    And they running, it was a [GERMAN] still there,
    a little [INAUDIBLE].
    And they run there [INAUDIBLE].
    One of them said to the soldier, [GERMAN]..
    He said [GERMAN] is too good for him.
    The Obersturmbannführer said--
    The Sturmbannführer said [GERMAN] is too good for him.
    Shooting is too good for him.
    Yeah.
    He didn't waste a bullet.
    He dropped dead.
    They killed him [INAUDIBLE].
    So the next day I have to go make fire for the doctor, too.
    I didn't see this man, but I see fingernails in the wall,
    scratched and bloody.
    It was scary.
    I was a young boy.
    And see things like this is--
    sometimes stays with you.
    It can't get out of your system.
    But still I grow up--
    But he is not bitter.
    And still I grow up not to be bitter and talk about it,
    because it's very important to talk about.
    But I don't hate everybody because, from my experience,
    there's good people and bad people everywhere.
    You can't accuse.
    People said, how can you be so--
    I remember when I going out from the ghetto to the trains.
    We came from the--
    This is in Lithuania?
    The time I go back from the castle
    back to the ghetto to stay in there.
    And then the ghetto--
    Excuse me.
    Did it look like a castle?
    What was the-- it's called Raudondvaris, but it's--
    Raudondvaris.
    It's a castle.
    Yeah, but what did it look like?
    There was a [GERMAN].
    There was a place where they were riding with horses.
    We thought that this is for the king.
    So it was a horse--
    it was a equine sort of academy, a place where
    there was horse riding.
    Yeah, like horse riding, like we have a thing in Annapolis.
    So a place where you can learn how to ride horses.
    Horses and military was there.
    This for the Lithuanians [INAUDIBLE],, but the Germans
    took it over.
    You call it like a castle.
    And this was going on over there when I was a little--
    It reminds me of the story of the Liliputaner.
    It could be.
    The horses.
    I don't know, but it sounds like it.
    No, they took the--
    this was not a [INAUDIBLE].
    There was other places they took, but what they did,
    they put out, cleaned everything out inside.
    But also, whenever he says a castle, it bothers me.
    Because when he says castle, it sounds like he was someplace--
    In a castle.
    In a castle.
    No, it was--
    But it's not.
    It's someplace else.
    It was like a castle, really.
    It was just called that.
    Like a [GERMAN].
    You can see that some places was--
    It might have been a manor or a big building or something.
    A big, big building.
    It was a [GERMAN].
    It was making this a place for a school.
    Riding school.
    That's where I worked, in there.
    I bet you it still exists.
    Yeah, I'm sure it's there.
    Could very well be.
    I'm sure it exists.
    Another thing that I want to put my two cents in.
    When he said that his friend from Hungary,
    how his parents were killed, what he's told
    me was that they dug a big grave.
    And they put the 40 people, and they drove over with a tank.
    Yeah.
    I saw this, but I forgot to tell you this.
    That's when I told the story was--
    So that's why this friend of his was so bitter and angry.
    Because he saw them drove--
    He saw.
    He was hiding up in an attic, and he
    saw his father, mother, and sister, and some other people.
    Other people.
    This was a little town.
    Crushed.
    Crushed by a tank.
    Took their life.
    The Hungarians, the Germans didn't know who he was.
    They crushed the rest--
    Was this in Budapest or did he tell--
    I don't know exactly.
    I think he was--
    It must have been.
    It was in Budapest, I think.
    Some place where his friend--
    I never met his friend, but--
    I have pictures for them in an album.
    I have pictures for them, nice.
    As I was saying, we've jumped around here.
    But I wanted to also-- some of the things
    that you've told me are from the first interview.
    I remember that.
    And so it's interesting also to see the description now
    versus 15, 10, 17 years ago.
    Yeah, I think so.
    But one thing that we didn't get--
    and this is why I'm very glad we talked a lot more detail about
    post-war--
    is I wanted to get a sense of-- you have so much to tell.
    I wanted to get a sense of who your parents and family were
    as people.
    Because we're talking so much of what happened to them,
    I want to know more about what was your father's personality,
    what was your mother's personality, and your brother's
    personality.
    My father was a little businessman.
    He used to buy skins in Lithuania from butchers.
    <