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Oral history interview with Johanna van Schagen

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1992.A.0123.1.8 | RG Number: RG-50.035.01.0008

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    Oral history interview with Johanna van Schagen
    Transcript
    Put in a new tape, and then go on again.
    OK, oh, I wanted to make a tape of it myself.
    And my tape recorder is up there.
    I thought you should be able to start and--
    OK, let's begin.
    Well, my name is and Ann van Schagen and right
    now I'm living in Vandalia, Ohio.
    I was born in Holland.
    And in 1940 I was married, and I had a husband and a little boy,
    1 and 1/2 year old.
    And then of course in 1940, the war broke out.
    And we didn't expect it that soon.
    We did expect it in a little bit, but not that soon.
    And one morning, we woke up and then
    the airplanes were going over the house.
    And we run to the window, and we hear all the shooting,
    and saw all the planes and the paratroopers, what
    came down and was shot up, which was
    a terrible sight, of course.
    And from then on, we had a very, very hard time.
    Because for five days, the Dutch people try to save the country,
    and they were fighting very hard.
    And, of course, the Germans were so much bigger, and so many
    more people that we didn't have a chance.
    And we still kept on trying for five days.
    And then after five days, the Germans
    said, well, if we were going to keep on fighting,
    then they would start bombing all the big cities.
    And they started right away with the city of Rotterdam.
    And that's where I was born.
    And of course, then we had to quit, because that cost
    too too many people's lives.
    And we just had to quit.
    So that meant that we were under the Germans.
    And this is very hard if you are a good Dutchmen
    to have to become a German, which is your enemy.
    And at first, it was very hard.
    Because they took everything--
    food and materials, everything they took away right away.
    And there was hardly nothing what you could buy in the store
    right away.
    And they also took all the food.
    They told the farmers that they could have about so much
    for each family, the stuff what they made,
    what they grow on the farm.
    And then after that, the rest was for Germany.
    And of course, this was very hard.
    Because the people in Holland, they didn't get very much.
    And this went on for a couple of years.
    And it got worse and worse.
    And, of course, you couldn't buy any clothes.
    Everything was on stamps.
    And it was after two years, it was so bad
    that then they said we were going
    to have to bring our radios to a certain point in the city.
    And everybody had to do that.
    The reason for that was that did not
    want the people to know what was really going on.
    But in England, that's where the queen and her whole family
    went to when the war started, they
    gave in Dutch all the news.
    But they, the Dutch people had to know.
    And the Germans didn't want us to know that.
    But we just had a new radio.
    And my husband was very, very honest.
    And he will do anything.
    But he said that radio is not going out of my house.
    We keep it.
    And he hid it in some place.
    So once a week.
    We could hear all the news from what was going on.
    And then they told us several times
    that there were so many Jews going
    to be picked up and brought to the gas chambers.
    And I felt so bad.
    Everybody felt bad about it.
    But they felt, you couldn't do anything about it.
    But my husband and I, we had a very wonderful life.
    And we had that little baby.
    And we really felt very rich together.
    We were very poor, because not of money,
    but you couldn't get anything.
    And I asked my husband.
    I said, do you think we can get maybe even one
    Jewish person in the house?
    Because at least we can do something.
    And we did have a big house, so we could do it.
    So my husband said, well, if you want
    to do that, you have to realize that if you do it,
    if they find them, they take you, and me, and our baby.
    And you have to realize that.
    And I said, well, I do.
    But of course, I was fairly young.
    I was maybe 23, 24 when this happened.
    But I thought, well, that we should do that.
    And so I had friends, and they were in the underground.
    And they came over to my house quite often.
    So one time, I told her, I said, you know.
    I think we would like to do something.
    And she said, oh good.
    She said, well, I tell them.
    So then the next day already, a lady
    came over, and came to ask if we would like to take a girl.
    And we said, yeah.
    That we would do it.
    And so this girl came to our house.
    And she was a very beautiful girl,
    and everything worked out fine.
    But of course, you are in fear all the time.
    And after she was at our house for about three months,
    she got very sick.
    And we had to have a doctor.
    But how can you get a doctor if you don't know if he is right.
    He might sympathize with the Germans,
    because that happened a lot of times.
    That's something you can't understand,
    how anybody can sympathize with the enemy.
    You know?
    But it happened.
    So but my husband went our own family doctor,
    and he said he was, thank God, he was a good person.
    And he said, well, I come.
    But I come in dark.
    Because otherwise your neighbors might think that you are sick
    or your husband.
    And nobody was supposed to know that we
    had somebody in the house.
    So he came over.
    And she was very sick.
    She needed antibiotics.
    And so the doctor gave the antibiotics to us.
    And so when she got better, she said, Anna, did I talk.
    And I said, yeah, you did.
    Because she was very delirious before she got the antibiotics.
    And so I said, yeah.
    You did.
    She said, what did I say?
    And I said, well all kinds of things.
    I don't really know.
    And she said, if this happens again,
    you have to promise me one thing.
    I said, what's that?
    She said, you have to roll me in a blanket,
    and put me on the back seat of a bike.
    And that was the only transportation
    we had, and bring me to the Canal, and drop me there.
    Because there was no route for a casket for anybody.
    But for Jewish people, especially you
    couldn't tell anybody.
    So I had to promise her that.
    So we did.
    And shortly after that, one little boy in our street
    passed away.
    And the parents were so upset, and they
    were telling us if we should have a casket to bury him in.
    But they had to do the same thing.
    And of course, roll them in a blanket
    and put them under the dirt.
    And that must be the hardest thing to do.
    And so we had friends.
    And they offered their mahogany cabinet.
    And then they could make, if they
    knew a carpenter that could make a nice casket,
    then they would give that cabinet.
    And we had two friends a father and a son.
    And they were cabinet makers.
    And they could make a beautiful casket, they said.
    They worked a day and a night.
    And they made a beautiful casket for this nine-year-old boy.
    And of course, you can never give the life back.
    But at least it softens the sadness a little.
    And then after three more months, this first girl,
    her name was Susan, she decided that she
    wanted to try to go to England.
    And sometimes, you could do that if you paid a lot of money.
    Then somebody would help you to get in England, to England.
    But many times, they got caught.
    And later, after the war, we heard she was caught,
    and she never made it alive.
    So then after she was gone, the next day this lady came again.
    And she asked, would we take another girl?
    And we said, yeah.
    That was OK.
    I was pregnant at that time from my daughter.
    And so she came in our house.
    And her name was Mata.
    And well Mata and my husband and I,
    we had a very, very good friendship,
    real friendship we built up.
    And she was there during the birth of my daughter.
    And then we did send out little cards
    that were birth announcements.
    And so that's how it looks like.
    And we sent one to all our friends,
    and also the friends what were in the underground.
    And he got one, and his fiancee got one.
    And after my daughter was born then, about five weeks later,
    this friend of mine, Mimi is her name.
    She was in the underground.
    And she said, Anna, we can't find Richard no place.
    And I said, well, maybe he's hiding
    because they are finding out that he
    is working for the underground.
    And she said, yeah, but then he could let me know.
    And I said, yeah, but maybe just let's wait a little bit.
    And well for weeks, we didn't hear anything.
    And then all of a sudden, I got a letter, or we got a letter.
    And there was a little note and it said.
    I found this beside the railroad.
    And thought maybe you would like to have this.
    And because of the address, what is on this card,
    they send it to us.
    And on the back of this little card, it said dear Mimi,
    I am on transport to Dachau.
    Be strong.
    I love you very much, Richard.
    So then we knew where our friend was.
    And she knew that, too.
    And of course it was a very hard time for her too.
    So but then the time got so bad, because we
    didn't have any electricity, and we didn't have gas.
    We didn't have coal for two years.
    Just imagine, without coal.
    We were sitting with blankets around us,
    and we were going to bed early, and getting up late.
    Because it was cold, just like here
    in the winter, and no heat.
    And, of course, you could do something sometimes.
    And like if you knew where a train stopped,
    sometimes those trains they make new fire in the tanks.
    And then they take stuff out.
    And then we went there.
    And then we tried to pick all the little coal up.
    And then my husband had made, and everybody else
    had that too, a 3-pound coffee can, more or less that size.
    And that open on the top.
    And it had little holes on the bottom.
    So then they would put a little paper in there.
    My husband would do that.
    And then put some little wood in there.
    And then we would cook whatever we would have.
    In this case, I went out several times on my bike.
    And then we went to the farmers, say from here till Tipp City
    or Troy, and then ask the farmers
    if we could find some wheat, after they harvested,
    that we could pick up the wheat what was left.
    And sometimes they said yes.
    But sometimes there were so many people.
    And then they say no, we have enough.
    You go to someplace else.
    Sometimes you have to go to five or six.
    But you always found something.
    And then you have to go very far for it, of course.
    And then we would pick all day.
    We would pick up, and we had a pillowcase with us.
    And then we would pick up the little wheat things,
    and put them in the pillow case.
    And then you had half a pillowcase full by nighttime.
    And then we would go home.
    And my friends what was living beside me,
    she always went with us.
    And maybe you think why didn't her husband go.
    But if the young men, under 40 were on the street,
    they would just come around with a paddy wagon,
    and pick them all up and bring them to Germany.
    So I didn't want that to happen to my husband,
    and she didn't either.
    So we did all those kinds of things.
    And then when you came home, then we would sit by the table.
    By the light of one candle, because that is the only light,
    we got a little bit of oil a month.
    And you had a little flutter in there.
    And that was all the light.
    But then all day and all night, we
    would pick out all the kernels.
    And then my husband would grind it through the coffee grinder.
    And from that we made our breakfast,
    put water on that little stove.
    And then that was boiling we would
    put wheat, the ground wheat in there, and stir it.
    Now, they probably will put it behind wallpaper.
    But of course at that time we ate it,
    and we were happy with it.
    Because it felt at least you had something in your stomach.
    And you did hardly never have to cook, because we had
    to eat from the field kitchens.
    So once a day, you could get to the field kitchen.
    And you got so much for so many people.
    And so--
    But you were feeding more people than they knew about.
    You had someone else there that they didn't-- so you had
    to share it.
    Yeah.
    Well, but if you did have one or two people,
    then the underground took care of it,
    that you got for that one or two people that much more.
    You see?
    But it was never enough, see?
    We got a half a loaf of bread a week, a portion.
    That was all you got.
    Well, that is not very much for a whole week.
    And if you don't have anything else, not butter, no cheese,
    nothing.
    So that is-- you just can't imagine how it is.
    And then, of course, by using the wood
    for those little stoves, people all run out of wood.
    And we started taking--
    everybody else did.
    We were not the only one, take the shelves out of cabinet,
    make little pieces of wood from that, and burn that.
    But that goes fast if you use it every day.
    And when that was all gone, we went to take the banister off
    around the stairway.
    Well, whatever you could find, and you could do without,
    my husband made little pieces, and then we could use that.
    And one night, my neighbors just was
    going to have a little baby.
    She got the baby.
    And of course, to go and get the midwife,
    because that's what you had there,
    you didn't go to hospital.
    Then he got a permit to go out during the night on his bike
    to get the midwife.
    And she would come on her bike to the house.
    And I was supposed to stay with my friend.
    And then that baby was born by the light of a candle,
    because that was the only thing we had.
    Everything we had to do with the light of that one candle.
    Stop right there.
    OK.
    Because that was--
    That was the silliest story.
    Yeah.
    But that, of course, is--
    Sit down, please.
    It's rolling.
    OK, let's continue.
    Now, do you want to ask a question to lead her in?
    No, we talk.
    Yeah.
    Well, and then if that was not bad, only with the one candle.
    We also didn't have any soap.
    We did not have soap to wash our clothes.
    But we didn't have soap to wash our bodies.
    And that is, of course, a very, very hard thing to cope with.
    And you don't realize it unless you're in it, how bad that is.
    So then one night, when we didn't hardly
    have any wood anymore, my husband and my neighbor
    were together.
    And my neighbor said, Cees, that was my husband's name.
    We have to get some more wood.
    Because we can't do anything anymore.
    And I don't know what to cut.
    And he said, but I saw one more tree.
    And why don't we get that?
    And my husband said, no.
    I'm not going to steal a tree.
    But I thought, well, we have to.
    Everybody else did.
    And I told my husband, what are we going to do,
    because we don't have anything anymore.
    Well, he agreed.
    And then we had to.
    It was just a must.
    And so that one night, it was pitch dark
    because the houses were all dark.
    There was no ping of light shining.
    And the street lanterns weren't shining.
    So it was pitch dark.
    And we went with the three of us.
    And we went out.
    I lived on a dead end street.
    And we lived-- we walked all to the end of the street
    and around the corner.
    And there were two trees left.
    And my husband said, you stay there on the corner
    and see if nobody is coming.
    Because the Germans were always going around to see if nothing
    happened.
    So I stood there and I prayed to God,
    please make everything all right, because--
    and so my husband and my friend, and our friend,
    they cut the tree.
    And then we had a long rope.
    And we took it home with us.
    So then for a while, we had wood enough.
    And of course, when the time came for the beans,
    we had to-- you couldn't buy beans.
    And so you had to do the same thing as with the corn,
    with wheat, you had to go to each farmer
    and ask could we pick the beans, what you left on the field?
    And we had the same terrible of course.
    Sometimes you got right away.
    But sometimes you had to go to six or seven farmers.
    And then we did have, oh, say by the night
    time, a half a pillowcase, full with green beans.
    And then we were really happy.
    And then when we were coming closer
    to where the more people lived, there we
    have a lot of bridges in Holland.
    And there were lots of times, there was a German soldier
    or two, and they stood there.
    And whenever somebody passed where
    they thought they had something, they would stop you.
    And then they said what do you have there, in German,
    of course.
    And then we got out our back, and we opened up the bag.
    And we showed the beans.
    And then they would say, oh, you can't have that.
    And they took it away.
    And then they probably used it, or gave it to a good friend.
    But we didn't have it then.
    And we worked all day on our knees to get it.
    So sometimes we really cried when we went home.
    But then, of course, we got a friend over,
    and they had four children.
    And his wife was sick.
    And he needed somebody to help them very, very bad.
    And he knew that we had a [NON-ENGLISH],, this girl,
    in our house.
    And he said, now, she is--
    you always said she is so good.
    And I said, well she is.
    He said, do you think she would come to my house,
    and she will do my family, help my family?
    He said, because I really need somebody.
    So we sat down and talked about it.
    And [NON-ENGLISH] said, well, you only have two kids.
    And they have four, and she is sick, and I was healthy.
    So, I said, yeah.
    You're right.
    I said, I think you should do it.
    She said, I will.
    And so she went over to that family,
    and helped that family until the war was over.
    She was there.
    Of course, when [NON-ENGLISH] left, right away,
    they came to our house again.
    And the lady, the same lady, she said, yeah.
    She said, I have a very hard question now.
    She said, I have two ladies, and would you
    be willing to take them.
    And my husband said, well, I don't know.
    But then when she told us the story.
    We said, yes.
    Because she told us that one of those two ladies, see,
    her name was Lisa.
    And she and her husband were in place in the Southern part
    of Holland.
    And they were in a house where they had 17 Jewish people.
    They had two teachers, lady teachers.
    They had a big house.
    And they hid 17 Jewish people.
    But for all those 17, they had to have hiding places.
    So then Lisa also had a little girl.
    She was about five.
    And the little Jewish children, they brought those to farmers
    way back in the boondocks, very far away,
    so that nobody would ever notice.
    They would play with other children,
    and so they were never too worried about the little kids.
    But the father and mother would like to see the girl.
    So the farmer's lady told them that she
    would come over once a week, and bring the little girl.
    And then she would do whatever she had to do in town.
    And so she did.
    And then one day, she brought this little girl over,
    and the little girl was full, covered with lice.
    And the mother felt so bad about that.
    And so she asked one of the ladies,
    could I keep my daughter for one night,
    because then I treat her hair, and then maybe she
    get rid of some of it, because it was that bad.
    And that was not because those people were dirty.
    But if you don't have soap, what are you going to do.
    And so the lady said, well, I asked a doctor.
    And they had a doctor living beside them.
    And this doctor had told the ladies,
    I will help you wherever I can.
    But he did have the practice on the house.
    So he could not have any other people living with him.
    But he said whenever you need it, you just call on me.
    So one of the teachers went over there
    and asked if Lisa could sleep there that night,
    and the reason.
    And they said sure, of course, when
    it was dark Lisa should come over and sleep there
    for that night.
    Because they only had 17 hiding places.
    And so the little girl could be with the father,
    if something would happen.
    And so Lisa went to bed that night.
    And in the middle of the night, she woke up
    and she heard a lot of noise.
    And she jumped out of bed.
    She went to the window and there was a paddy wagon in front
    of the teacher's house.
    And she saw all the people.
    There were two soldiers with the bayonet up by the door.
    And two were by the paddy wagon.
    And all those people went one at a time
    to the paddy wagon, also the two teachers, and her husband
    and a little girl.
    And when she saw them go, she wanted to run and go with them.
    But the doctor, of course, had to keep her from doing that,
    because if she would have run out the doctor's house,
    they would have taken the doctor's family too.
    And so they could not let her go.
    They had to do it that way.
    And so she was so upset, and underground
    decided that was not the right place for her to be anymore,
    because they were going to look for her.
    And that's why they came to ask for her.
    But since she was in such bad shape,
    they wanted her aunt or aunt to go with her so that she
    had somebody to talk to.
    Now, we could understand that.
    And of course, we thought we should do that.
    We should help those people.
    So they were coming to our house.
    And when they came, all the Dutch people
    had a paper like this.
    That is just like an passport.
    But you had to have your picture in it.
    And also, you have to have your fingerprints in it,
    and your name and everything.
    Now what underground did was, they stole those from everybody
    they could find.
    And then they changed the fingerprint,
    and they changed the picture.
    And if it was about the same age, then it was all right.
    They couldn't think anything of it.
    And Lisa had one like that.
    Originally, the Jewish people had a big yellow star on it.
    So they knew right away.
    But this was OK.
    So these men in the train, they had a raid.
    And they had raids all the time in the train.
    And this Lisa were sitting there.
    And this man looked at the picture.
    This German soldier, and he looked at her,
    and he looked at the picture again.
    And he gave the thing back to her.
    And he looked at her.
    Like, I feel sorry for you, lady.
    And he moved on.
    And when she came to our house.
    She cried.
    She said, why didn't they take me with them?
    Maybe I would have seen my husband and my daughter.
    But he just let me go.
    She wanted to be taken away.
    So anyhow, when they were then living
    with us for a little while, of course, those people,
    they didn't have anything to do.
    They never could go outside.
    Nobody was supposed to know.
    And of course, our little boy by that time
    was 4 and 1/2 and almost five.
    And we kept on telling him, now Johnny, don't tell anybody
    that Aunt Mary or Lisa is here.
    And before we had done that for the two other ones.
    And then we told him, if you tell,
    then they will shoot mommy and daddy.
    And my son never, had never said to nobody,
    but of course it was always a risky thing.
    So to keep those two ladies busy,
    we would have, say, a blanket, and tear the threads out,
    and then they would knit things, all kinds of things.
    And one day, we got a little card in the mail.
    And it said, we want to come and see you this coming Sunday.
    And this was from a brother of my husband.
    And he was a wonderful person.
    But his wife was sympathizing with the Germans.
    And so much that she would tell on anybody, on her own brother
    or sister she would tell.
    And we knew that.
    And I said to my husband, what are we going to do?
    Because she will tell on us.
    And I said, can't we reach him?
    But there was no telephone, and the mail was too late.
    And they would bring their own food.
    They usually did that anyhow, when they came to visit.
    So anyhow, my husband said, well, we have to let them come.
    And so we made provisions for those two ladies
    to stay upstairs all day long.
    And of course, our bathroom was downstairs.
    So we had made provisions for that.
    And I would bring them their meals
    whenever I thought I saw a moment that I could do it.
    And this old lady had knitted a pair of beautiful socks
    for my son, knee socks.
    And with a cable in it, and they were really pretty.
    And so they came, and everything worked out all right,
    and we didn't hear a peep upstairs.
    And then one moment my little boy went on his knees
    on a chair, and my sister-in-law said, oh Johnny,
    what beautiful socks.
    Did mama make those?
    No, the grandma made those.
    No, he said-- she said, who made them.
    And my husband looked at me, and I looked at my husband.
    And we thought now we are sold.
    We were both shaking.
    And he said my grandma.
    And he just, it was so real, that they
    believed him right away.
    And but really what we did was teaching our kid to lie.
    But that was the only thing we could do.
    So but what else?
    Oh, yeah.
    And then also my father and mother,
    they had a lady living with them, also a Jewish lady.
    And she was 76 years old.
    And she had 14 children.
    And from the 14, as far as we know,
    there are two still living.
    And the rest was all taken away with their families,
    her grandchildren, and her children,
    everything was all gone, when she
    came to my father and mother's house.
    And she really liked to come over to our house.
    But that was 45 minutes walk, and no buses or anything.
    So my husband, one time he went all the way with a little wagon
    that he got from the milkman and he went to get her.
    And she came for three days and so for three days
    we had three ladies in the house.
    And when she was there, see, I was in the kitchen.
    And she was in the living room with my husband.
    And two other ladies, they were upstairs.
    And they were always ready to leave.
    Everybody had to have a hiding place.
    So we did too.
    And in the hallway, you came out of the kitchen,
    there was a runner.
    And under the runner there we had a special thing which
    you could lift up like a lid.
    And if we lifted it up, then they
    could ride away from the upstairs jump in that hole.
    And that was what we called I think a crawl space, where
    they would jump in.
    And we had told them if something would happen then we
    would not call names, because we were only with the three
    in house, and they knew that.
    Then we would come like, pssst, real loud.
    And then they knew that there was really danger.
    And they had everything always in a small sheet,
    whatever they had.
    So if something happened there would be nothing found.
    And that time that they had that too.
    So I was in the kitchen, and my husband
    came towards the kitchen.
    He opened the door and he said, Ann they're here.
    And I knew right away what he meant.
    And so I went to the steps, and I came like right away, pssst,
    and my husband rolled up the runner.
    And we lift up the lid and they went under and we covered it up
    and then I went with my husband to the living room.
    And when I looked out of the living room
    they were standing, the Dutch--
    the German solders with a bayonet
    up were standing in front of our door on each side.
    And then two other ones were standing a little farther,
    and two other ones were coming two houses past us.
    That's where a family lived where the man was in the--
    in the German army.
    And his wife and three kids lived there.
    And she was sympathizing too.
    But she was-- she was a nice lady.
    But she didn't think like we thought.
    And it was close to the end of the war.
    So they took her and her three kids in the paddy wagon,
    and then all those soldiers went in the paddy wagon.
    And they drove away.
    I think that was the biggest scare we had.
    It was really-- it was really very, very bad.
    And well this--
    Let's stop right there.
    And we knew that was happening.
    You must help.
    Some place I'd like you to--
    remember what you said here, how you felt.
    At some point, maybe toward the end--
    Tape is rolling.
    So when those people went away, you
    can understand how tense we were.
    And we were tenses for four years,
    because in the whole neighborhood where I lived,
    there were about 200 people living there.
    And I am not sure, but I'm almost
    sure that we were the only ones what did have
    Jewish people in the house.
    And of course, nobody was supposed to know that.
    But we did have very, very good neighbors,
    and we told them, because somebody
    had to know in case there was a raid,
    so that they could bring our little boy to my father
    and mother, and later, our two kids.
    If something would happen, if they had a chance,
    they would bring the kids to my father and mother,
    if they would take us.
    And of course, had they found those people,
    then they would have taken us too.
    But thank god that didn't happen.
    And so also, before the war started,
    the people didn't go to church hardly.
    The churches were empty, and there was not--
    there were not very big churches with a lot of people.
    But we did have, when we were younger.
    And then, the longer the war was going on,
    the more people went to church, because they probably felt
    that was their only way out.
    And then, when it was the last Christmas,
    we wanted to have a service in the church,
    and we did have a real big church.
    And all the people would come in the morning.
    But we wanted an evening sermon so bad.
    And so they asked the farmers to bring their stable lanterns.
    And we had about 10 or 12 stable lanterns
    in that real big church.
    And that's not very much light.
    But we did sing all the songs what we knew by heart.
    And the people were even standing outside.
    That was the Christmas before we got freed.
    And that was a wonderful experience
    to be there with all those people.
    And then, in February in '45, Lisa,
    the mother of this little girl, she
    decided she wanted to go to a fortune teller,
    because she wanted to know if her little girl was still
    living.
    And we knew already then that the war wouldn't
    be that long anymore, because half of Holland
    was taken already.
    And we were in the half what was still under the Germans.
    So she couldn't go on the street by herself.
    So I told her not to do it.
    But I did, because I didn't really believe in it.
    And she said, well, I'm going.
    I am going to do it.
    You tell me where I can find one.
    I said, no, I'll go with you.
    So I went with her.
    And of course it was always walking, about half an hour
    with her, to where the fortune teller was leaving.
    And when we came there, we didn't talk to anybody.
    It was only she and me.
    And there were two other people in the room.
    But we didn't talk.
    And when we came in there, this man looked at her,
    and he looked at me.
    And he didn't know me.
    And we sat down.
    And he said-- for a while he was quiet.
    His eyes closed.
    And then he said, I see a little girl about seven years old,
    and she is jumping rope.
    And Lisa almost jumped for joy, because she was still living.
    And then he said, and wait.
    I see a man.
    And he is in a carpenter business.
    And then she was even more happy,
    because her husband and her girl were still
    living, and hoping that it wouldn't be too long anymore
    before the war was over.
    She went home, and she was so happy.
    She cried, and she really believed.
    And I said, Lisa, maybe it is not so,
    and just don't have your hopes too high.
    But she did have her hopes high.
    And then, in May, it was so far, that we were so hungry.
    Everybody was really thin.
    And we were really on our rope end.
    And then, the Americans came.
    And I will never forget that.
    I will forever be thankful to the Americans for doing this,
    because we went outside, and we saw all those planes.
    And they dropped those big packages down.
    And there was white bread in there,
    and dried eggs, and milk, and everything.
    And we just couldn't believe it.
    And it was wonderful.
    It was really, really wonderful.
    And up till today, I always think about that time,
    and about all the lives the Americans
    gave for us in Holland.
    And of course, then we came to America,
    and we are Americans now--
    proud Americans, and very happy to be an American.
    Then we got, after a couple of years--
    well, a couple of years--
    the one Dutch lady, the one Jewish lady,
    Meita, she went to Israel.
    And she had this--
    she sent us this.
    And she had a tree planted in our name, which was
    very nice of them to do that.
    And just a couple months ago, I got this note.
    And I cannot read it very well, but maybe you want to read it
    for me, because this--
    "Dear Mrs. van Schagen Proper.
    I have the pleasure to inform you
    that the special commission for the designation
    of the righteous at its session has decided to confer upon you
    and your husband Cees its highest
    expression of gratitude, the title of Righteous
    Among the Nations.
    This honor entitles you and your husband to a metal
    and a certificate of honor, and the privilege
    of having a tree planted in your name at Yad Vashem, Jerusalem.
    These awards will be subsequently forwarded to you
    at a later date.
    Please accept our congratulations and best
    wishes."
    And it is signed by the director of the Department
    for the Righteous of Yad Vashem, the Holocaust
    Martyrs and Heroes Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, Israel.
    OK.
    Roland, I'd like to insert just one thing for her.
    Can she say it now, and then it'll be--
    you'll do it?
    Or should we just--
    Pause tape.

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Johanna van Schagen discusses her experiences of hiding Jews in her home in the Netherlands during World War II and her recognition as a "Righteous Among the Nations" by the State of Israel.
    Interviewee
    Johanna van Schagen
    Interviewer
    Renate Frydman
    Date
    interview:  1986 July 30

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    3 videocassettes (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Schagen, Johanna van.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Renate Frydman conducted the interview with Johanna van Schagen on July 30, 1986, in cooperation with Wright State University Television Center with support from the Jewish Federation of Greater Dayton. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History branch received the tapes of the interview in 1992. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the tapes via transfer from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History branch in February 1995.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:08:04
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn507343

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