Advanced Search

Learn About The Holocaust

Special Collections

My Saved Research

Login

Register

Help

Skip to main content

Print

Oral history interview with Margaret Lambert

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.A.0456.5 | RG Number: RG-50.429.0005

Search this record's additional resources, such as finding aids, documents, or transcripts.

No results match this search term.
Check spelling and try again.

results are loading

0 results found for “keyward”

    Oral history interview with Margaret Lambert
    Transcript
    Going to start with this?
    Well, I'm going to asking you to start
    by telling me your name, your date of birth,
    where you were born.
    And you might want to give me your name then
    and your name now.
    OK.
    Well, my name is Margaret Lambert.
    I was born a name that I hate, Gretl.
    It's too Teutonic.
    I hate that name--
    Gretl Bergman.
    And I was born April 12, 1914, in a very small town
    in the south of Germany.
    And it was a great life.
    And what was the town called?
    Laupheim.
    Tell me a little bit about that great life.
    Well, we had all the freedom that we needed,
    could roam around every place.
    Once I had a bicycle at the age of seven,
    I could go into the countryside and hunt for frogs, and snakes,
    and stuff like this-- and lots of friends--
    mostly non-Jewish friends.
    There was a large Jewish community in the town,
    but due to my love for sports, most of my friends
    were non-Jewish, and that was never, never,
    never a problem until a certain time in my life.
    Tell me about your family.
    My father had a terrific sense of humor,
    and I think I inherited it from him.
    And he had a large factory making hair goods;
    hair nets, wigs, some of them found, even,
    their way into the Metropolitan Opera.
    And my mother was--
    I don't know she was a little bit of a kvetch,
    if you know what that means.
    She was always trying to get our attention by saying,
    oh, have this terrible headache, and so on, and so on.
    And I don't think she was--
    she was not a very warm person, because both I and my two
    brothers, we felt that she was unapproachable.
    But we had a good time together.
    I had a brother who was two years older.
    Then I got a little baby brother.
    He was 12 years younger, which embarrassed the heck out of me
    because I didn't think parents should
    engage in this sort of stuff.
    But we were all very good friends.
    My brother died, unfortunately, very suddenly,
    about 20 years ago on a pleasure trip.
    And my younger brother I'm in touch with.
    And we have a very good relationship.
    Tell me a little bit about your religious background.
    There was no organized religion in my house.
    We ate everything.
    We did everything.
    We never went to the temple except on the high holy days.
    And I hated it because I had to wear a hat.
    And my father used to say to us, be a decent human being, that
    should be your religion.
    And I think he followed that, and we followed it too.
    And religion never meant anything to me.
    And especially after all the things
    that happened later on, if I ever
    had any religious feelings, I think
    I would have lost it pretty fast after all the things
    that happened to Jewish people.
    So even though your family clearly was not very religious,
    did you identify with being a Jew as a girl?
    Well, only in the fact that I was Jewish.
    And I had to go to temple twice a year.
    But it didn't make any difference
    because nobody cared.
    I was the only girl in my class.
    And I was the only Jew in my class.
    And there was never, never an unpleasant moment.
    And you didn't think of yourself as a Jew.
    You thought of yourself as a German, I think.
    So you never experienced anti-Semitic feelings
    before Hitler arrived on the scene?
    No, only once.
    I said some neighbor boy called me a dirty Jew or something.
    And I beat him up.
    And I was never bothered again.
    So that was it.
    So the events of 1933 and onward must have come as a shock
    to you?
    It most certainly did?
    It was terrible.
    I mean, from one day to the other, there was like a wall.
    One day you were a respected citizen.
    The next day you were a tenth rate citizen.
    You were excluded from everything, all German life.
    You were banned from all public places;
    no theaters, no restaurants, no swimming pools.
    You couldn't go anyplace, and you could not associate
    with non-Jewish people.
    Actually, I want to get back to that.
    But I want to--
    I haven't asked you that much about your athletic life.
    And I want to talk about that a little bit before 1933.
    When I was about six years old, there
    was this little club in that town.
    And you could go as often as you wanted in the afternoon,
    or in the evening, whoever was ready there, the older people
    helped the younger people how to do certain things.
    And it was great.
    You just went there.
    I could go there unescorted because it
    was close to my house.
    And I'd spent some time there.
    And I was happy as a lark.
    What did you do there?
    Well, we did gymnastics.
    We did running.
    We did whatever, you know?
    There was a lot of gymnastics involved.
    And they worked on the parallel bars, which I hated.
    I hated that stuff because I wasn't good
    at it, because my legs were too long, I guess.
    But they instructed us, the older people.
    And it was a terrific relationship.
    They would take us out Sundays to go swimming.
    And it was really very nice.
    What did you like about sports?
    I just loved it.
    You just loved what?
    I loved everything that had to do with physical activity.
    I love to climb.
    I love to run.
    I just love to be outdoors.
    I skated.
    I swam.
    Nobody ever taught me anything.
    I played tennis.
    I played ping-pong.
    Nobody ever taught me anything.
    I was a natural athlete.
    And whatever I started to do, I did well
    without being instructed in anything.
    So it was the--
    I liked it better than mathematics, let me tell you.
    And you were good at it?
    And I was good at it, without working very hard at it.
    Did sports start playing a very significant role in your life?
    Well, once I got to be in the age
    where I got to be noticing boys, it
    became a very important thing in my life
    because that was the social life then.
    You went to the gym.
    And the boy you had your eye on walked you home.
    And that was a big deal.
    And that was very good.
    Was sports important in Germany growing up?
    Yes.
    I think there was hardly the smallest little village that
    didn't have some kind of sports going.
    It just was a soccer club.
    They play soccer and team sports more.
    But there were very few places where there was nothing
    going on.
    And that was a very important thing.
    And once I got a little older, maybe 14 or so,
    we used to go to other little towns and compete there.
    And that was really a lot of fun.
    And you met a lot of new people.
    And it was great.
    Were there a lot of sporting clubs and all that sort
    of thing for students?
    Oh yes, has nothing to do with the school,
    as a matter of fact.
    I think that's why I hated school so much.
    Because whenever I came into school on Monday,
    the teachers would make fun of me and say,
    oh, you must have had a tough weekend again?
    Maybe you've-- playing field handball or something.
    And why don't you pay more attention to your lessons?
    And I think that turned me off more than anything else.
    And I turned more to sports then instead of--
    less the way they thought I would.
    In talking about how much you loved sports and you were good
    at them, did it ever occur to you that--
    were you thinking about a future in athletics?
    Were you thinking in terms of Olympic competition?
    I don't believe so at that time.
    That came much later, really.
    But when I was quite small, maybe 10, 12 years old,
    I had made up my mind.
    I will be a physical education teacher or a coach.
    And I knew exactly where to go; to Berlin and study there.
    And it didn't work out that way because by the time
    I was ready for it, I wasn't accepted anymore.
    But I always wanted to be in sports.
    Not necessarily competitively but--
    No, just teaching, and the coaching, and the--
    you know, later on, once I got too old to do it myself.
    So you weren't thinking about competitions and the Olympics?
    I actually need you to say that as a full thought as opposed
    to just responding to me.
    Well, I don't think that I really
    thought about the Olympics.
    I don't even think I knew much about the Olympics.
    You know, we lived in this small, hick town that did
    have a newspaper, but I think it was
    more important to see that the chickens laid the eggs
    or whatever, then--
    or they would report the sports results
    of what happened in that town but nothing, really.
    You didn't get much information.
    There wasn't any television, of course.
    And the radio came much later.
    So I don't think that I knew much about the Olympics
    until I got a lot older.
    Actually, I think you just said there wasn't much television
    and the radio came later.
    There was no television.
    There was no television, of course.
    No television whatsoever.
    And radio also came--
    that wasn't there when I was very small.
    And there was nothing different at that stage
    about being a Jewish athlete?
    None whatsoever.
    I've said this so many times that there was absolutely
    no difference between the Jewish people and the Gentiles people.
    There were not that many Jewish people doing sports,
    let's face it, especially not girls.
    But I never felt any different.
    I mean, we would go Sundays--
    go to a nice swimming hole and go swimming in the--
    I, very often, was the only Jewish person going.
    So there was nothing.
    I felt perfectly comfortable.
    Were your parents or your brothers athletic also?
    No.
    Nobody.
    Nobody.
    I don't know where I got it from, I really don't.
    But my brothers liked to watch it,
    but they didn't do much by themselves.
    I mean, my brother--
    my older brother skied a little bit, but nothing very--
    not like I. I mean, I was possessed, I think, by sports.
    You started to talk about when things began changing
    for you as a young athlete.
    And I'd like you to talk about that a little bit more.
    When did it start becoming difficult
    for you to continue the way you were?
    In the spring of 1933.
    It was just around my birthday.
    And it was not a very nice birthday present.
    I got a letter from my sports club.
    You are no longer welcome here because you're Jewish,
    Heil Hitler.
    And that was the end of that.
    So they just threw me out of the club.
    And that was the end of my sports career
    as far as that was concerned.
    There was no Jewish sports per se in the town
    because everything was always mixed up.
    There was-- everybody did things together.
    But we were just locked out of everything.
    All the Jews were thrown out of the sports club.
    You couldn't go to restaurants.
    I mean, Jews were excluded from all German life.
    That started in 1933.
    And it was a horrible time.
    There was one Jewish restaurant in that town.
    And everybody congregated there.
    And everybody commiserated.
    What are we going to do?
    What's going to happen here?
    And it was a horrible life.
    Was any of this anticipated?
    Did you know much about Hitler?
    I don't think it was anticipated in the realm the way
    it happened.
    Once he became Chancellor, then you started to--
    Sorry, can you just say, once Hitler became Chancellor?
    Once Hitler became Chancellor, you
    started to worry a little bit, you know?
    But everybody thought this is--
    this is going to blow over.
    He's not going to last.
    As a matter of fact, I had been accepted at the University
    for Physical Education in Berlin for the spring semester.
    And I wrote them a letter saying that I was Jewish,
    and would it be advisable for me to come just then?
    And they wrote me a letter back literally saying
    wait until this thing blows over.
    So everybody thought this is not going to last.
    But once Hitler had taken hold, you
    were just afraid for your life.
    If you disobeyed or whether it was a Jew
    or whether it was a Gentile, you did exactly
    as you were told like in a real dictatorship.
    I want you to expand a little bit
    on how your life changed from what you were excluded from
    and how that felt, because I'm really
    trying to understand what it was like for a teenage girl all
    of a sudden having her life completely just turned
    upside down in a way.
    It was a terrible, terrible time.
    it was almost-- you couldn't understand.
    Why did this happen?
    Why aren't those people associating with us anymore?
    I mean, some of the friends stayed
    with us but only in a way--
    they couldn't be caught to come to our house, for instance.
    They had to come in the middle of the night
    and sneak in the back door if they wanted to visit with us.
    But a lot of them did change.
    They went the other way, and they figured, well, maybe
    Hitler is our God from now on.
    And we'll stay with him.
    But it was very bad.
    We didn't know what to do with ourselves.
    You couldn't go anywhere.
    You couldn't go into a restaurant.
    You couldn't go into a movie, and especially in a small town.
    A large town, I guess, you could dare to go to a movie
    every once in a while or a restaurant,
    but not in a small town.
    Everybody knew everybody else, and you just didn't do it.
    And if you did it, I'm sure you would be punished according
    to Hitler's creed or whatever.
    Did you feel betrayed by friends and--
    Yes, some of them.
    There was a girl next door to me,
    we grew up together as babies.
    We were together every single day.
    She ate in our house more times than she ate in her own house.
    And as soon as Hitler came in, she didn't know me anymore.
    That was it.
    She had the chance to sneak into the house just like everybody--
    other friends that--
    she never made that attempt.
    And maybe two years ago, she wrote me
    a letter; the first time I ever heard from her.
    My dear, darling, you know, stuff like this.
    And I'm so happy to finally find your address.
    And the good times we had together and stuff like this.
    And I wrote her back.
    I said, yes, it was a good time.
    But you didn't think so then because you didn't know me
    anymore.
    That was the end of that friendship.
    How did you make sense of all this?
    Can I just make a quick lighting adjustment?
    We heard this stuff so many times.
    We ready?
    Five seconds.
    OK.
    How much more on the tape?
    Ten minutes.
    OK.
    Rolling.
    Whenever you're ready.
    OK, I think when we stopped, you were talking a little bit
    about how life changed in '33.
    And, as much as you can, give me a picture
    of what that was like.
    It is absolutely impossible for anybody
    who hasn't gone through this what
    it was like to be among friends one day,
    and the next day you would pass that same friend in the street
    and you wouldn't even say hello to each other because you were
    not-- some, you, were not allowed to do it,
    or some were afraid to do it.
    But you just passed your friends up and walked right on.
    And, for instance, my younger brother
    is 12 years younger than I, and all the kids
    from the neighborhood were his friends.
    They played together, all non-Jewish children,
    and they all played together.
    And all of a sudden, after 1933, they started to beat him up.
    And on his way to school, he had to go to a Jewish school
    because the other schools would not take him.
    And on the way to school, they beat him up.
    And I would walk him to school as often as I could.
    And they wouldn't beat him when I was there,
    but they would call him and me all kinds of horrible names.
    And they would spit at us.
    And I wouldn't dare to touch those children.
    Because, if I had touched a non-Jewish child,
    I would have been in a concentration camp
    the next day.
    So we really vegetated.
    There was nothing to do except worrying
    what's going to happen.
    My brother was working for Universal Pictures.
    And they had a studio in Berlin.
    Your older brother?
    My older brother.
    And they closed up because they saw what was coming.
    And they closed up, and he came home
    because there was nothing for him to do.
    So he started to work in my father's factory, tried
    to make himself useful there because he couldn't find a job,
    of course, nobody would employ you.
    Gentile people were not allowed to buy in Jewish stores,
    for instance.
    If somebody got caught doing that,
    they would take their pictures and hang them up
    at the city hall.
    I mean, they really meant business.
    You were absolutely excluded from everything.
    As a family, did you talk about this?
    Did you try to make sense of it?
    I don't remember that really.
    I think we were just into ourselves more or less.
    Everybody was worrying on their own,
    but I don't think it was discussed all that much.
    Until I finally decided that this was no life.
    From the Spring of 1933, then, finally, in the Fall,
    I said, I have to get out of here.
    I can't live like this.
    And I decided to go to England.
    And my parents agreed to it that I
    would go to England because it was
    a life of just vegetating, and talking
    about the same thing over--
    what is going to happen to us-- talking the same thing over
    and over again, and not to come to any result.
    I mean, nobody would knew what was going to happen.
    In this period then, did you essentially
    have to give up your athletics?
    Oh, yes.
    We did try to straighten out an old potato acre
    that somebody had given us, one of our Jewish families there.
    And the we ran there.
    And I started the field handball,
    which is the same as football, except it's
    like a combination of basketball and football.
    And I coached them.
    And it takes in 11 people, I think.
    I was the only girl on the team.
    And I shot the only goal the first time.
    We lost seven to one.
    And I shot the only goal.
    But, after a while, everybody got tired of this.
    The same people every day.
    It was horrible.
    They had an orchestra there.
    I mean, there were many Jewish people who played the violin.
    And we played a little music, but there really
    wasn't anything to do, so.
    And your father was able to remain in business?
    For the time being, yes, because he did a lot of business
    with the United States and England.
    Can you say my father instead of he?
    My father did a lot of business with England and the United
    States.
    And the Germans desperately needed the foreign currency
    to come in.
    So they were already preparing for the war effort I suppose.
    And that's why they left him on for a while.
    But then after several years, he was just
    like a figurehead on there.
    And the Nazis took over.
    But he couldn't leave because they took a passport away.
    So he was stuck until a certain time came
    when he was able to get out.
    You said that you decided you wanted to go to England.
    This was just you alone?
    Yes.
    Why don't you tell me a little bit about that, please?
    I could not stand the life that we had.
    And my brother was working my father's business,
    but I had nothing to do.
    And my mother tried to teach me how to be a housewife,
    cooking, and washing, and ironing.
    That wasn't my deal.
    So I decided, or my parents decided, I would go to England
    and find a school comparable to the one in Berlin that
    didn't take me.
    And that's where I went in--
    I think it was in October of 1933.
    It was OK.
    It was a very weird time too.
    I mean, I was very friendly with the girls in school.
    I couldn't find a school that I wanted to go to;
    physical education.
    So I went to school to learn English.
    I figured, better than nothing.
    And it was OK.
    They had a track program.
    And they immediately took me into it.
    And I competed for them.
    And won everything in sight.
    Whatever I did, whether it was running, or jumping, or discus,
    or whatever it was.
    And in the school, I was a big shot.
    However, what was very odd, I was very friendly
    with the girls and--
    some of the girls--
    I was never once invited to anybody's house.
    Now, why, I do not know.
    Maybe I was considered German.
    I was somehow discriminated against,
    even though I tried to get away from discrimination.
    And I went to England, but somehow, I
    was discriminated against.
    I mean, when foreigners came to Laupheim,
    we made these people comfortable.
    And they were our friends and they came to our houses.
    Not in England.
    Not once in nine months, 10 months, 11 months
    was I invited into anybody's house.
    That really hurt.
    Were there other Jews in the school?
    I'm sure there were.
    But, then again, I didn't pay much attention to it.
    I did not seek out other Jews to be my friends.
    I was just friendly with all the kids.
    So you competed.
    You kept up your athletics.
    Yes, and it was heaven.
    It was heaven.
    It wasn't much of a program they had in school,
    but it was nice to be back too.
    They only did it--
    no, we did it outdoors too.
    And then in June of 1934, I competed
    in the British Championships.
    And I won.
    And that was a really big deal because then already,
    I felt like it was so satisfying to me to win this.
    And I was sure this would be known in Germany.
    It was like a revenge kind of thing.
    There, you see?
    I'm a Jew, but I've won the British Championship.
    So I was really very, very happy about that.
    In what events were you?
    High jumping.
    That was my big event, high jumping.
    Thanks to my long legs and my big feet, I suppose.
    I had great success in it.
    And it was very interesting.
    My English was atrocious, of course.
    And the other girls didn't bother much with me
    because I was an outsider.
    So it was kind of lonely, but it didn't matter.
    I won and that was-- my father came over.
    I'm going to stop you here because we need to change tape.
    I do want you to pick up with this story.
    OK.
    OK?
    Yeah.
    --and Jewish sports [INAUDIBLE] the potato field.
    Margaret, I wanted to backtrack a minute.
    Before you went to England and you were kicked out
    of all of the German sporting clubs,
    were there alternative outlets for you?
    We made our own alternative outlets.
    We tried.
    Of course, I was being torn into the direction of sports,
    as I said before.
    We played music, and we tried to entertain ourselves
    as well as we could.
    But sports for me, of course, was
    the thing I wanted the most.
    So a farmer let us have an old potato field.
    And we tried to make it smooth.
    You know, it's a very rough field, big clumps on there.
    And we try to smooth it out.
    And we started our own Jewish handball team on there.
    Handball is a game like soccer except that you
    don't kick the ball.
    You dribble it like a basketball,
    and you pass it, throwing it.
    And it's a great game.
    And I coached all the fellows on the team.
    And I was the only girl on the team.
    And I shot the only goal on the first time when we lost 7 to 1.
    And we also tried to straighten out--
    next to the Jewish school there was a yard.
    And we tried to straighten that out
    to do calisthenics on it because that soccer
    field was a little bit--
    that handball field was a little bit out of the way.
    So we tried to straighten that out.
    But we had to fight the teachers' chickens.
    And they used that same place for their activities.
    And it was not very appetizing, so we gave up
    on that pretty fast.
    I want to ask you--
    my sense is that you're looking a little bit toward the camera
    rather than just on me.
    If you could try to keep your eyes on--
    OK.
    OK.
    Were there Jewish sporting clubs?
    Or did they exist before?
    Did you form them when you couldn't
    join the German the ones?
    There were Jewish sporting clubs.
    Maccabi, they called it.
    But that was a Zionistic outfit.
    And that was like the National League and the American League
    in baseball.
    They didn't get along with the other Jewish athletes, so--
    They called them the--
    RJF was people who fought in the First World War, the veterans.
    They started this club for athletics.
    And they were able, in some towns, to rent or even buy--
    I don't know-- stadiums where Jews could practice on.
    But the facilities were pretty poor, pretty terrible.
    But as I said, we tried to do as much as we
    could to entertain ourselves.
    And there was no coach capable of--
    anybody who was a little bit more advanced like I was,
    to tell me how to do it and what to do.
    And it was just a very, very bad time.
    These Jewish clubs, were they already in operation?
    Or they were formed in reaction?
    I think they were mostly formed after--
    as I said, the Maccabi, they were formed before already.
    But the Veterans of Foreign Wars,
    I think they called themselves, that came afterwards.
    In all the towns, almost, especially in the bigger towns,
    they started a movement so Jews would have a place
    to go to and do sports.
    What kind of facilities were they?
    Poor, mostly pretty poor.
    I think they only let you--
    the Germans would not give you anything very good.
    They let you have the garbage places that nobody else wanted.
    Most likely, that's what they gave the Jewish people.
    So this made it difficult for the Jewish athletes
    to really improve or be competitive?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes.
    It was very bad to really achieve something spectacular
    because it was just in such--
    it was a poor condition.
    And no coaching, that was bad too.
    Now we can jump forward to England,
    where you had been running in, I guess,
    British National Championships.
    The day I won the British Championship, as I said,
    that was a fabulous day for me.
    Let me ask you to do that again but don't say,
    as I said before.
    OK.
    Thank you.
    The day I won the British Championship
    was a fabulous day for me because I felt such pride
    in myself that I was able to do that because the Germans had
    told me I'm inferior.
    I'm no good.
    And all of a sudden, here I am, the British Champion.
    And I was hoping that, somehow, word
    would go back to Germany so they would find out that I did this.
    And my father had come over to watch me, I thought.
    I thought that was the reason for his trip,
    to watch me compete.
    But on the way back from the stadium,
    we found out differently.
    He didn't tell me right away.
    He waited until we got back to his hotel.
    But on the way back there, there were newspapers
    being hawked in the street.
    And everything seemed like to be big excitement.
    We asked the taxi driver, what's going on?
    And he said, it has something to do with the Nazis killing
    each other off.
    So we stopped the taxi, and we got out, got the newspaper.
    And it told a story about Hitler having killed off
    his best friend plus about 1,000 of his Nazi people
    because they complained about something.
    And he wanted to show that you just didn't do that.
    You did as you were told.
    And when we thought that this might
    have been the beginning of the end for Hitler,
    we couldn't have been more wrong.
    Because Hitler, by killing off these people,
    let everybody know, if you want to stay alive, don't be a hero.
    So we got to the hotel--
    excuse me.
    And there my father finally told me
    that I had to go back to Germany.
    And the reason he could not write to me
    or tell me on the telephone was because there
    was this strict censorship of everything coming into Germany
    or going out of Germany.
    And he couldn't have dared to tell me
    that unless I came back, the family was being threatened.
    You tell her to come back, or else.
    So, of course, I decided immediately to go home,
    especially in view of what happened to Hitler's pals.
    If he can kill off his own people,
    what is he going to do to a Jew who says no?
    And I went back.
    I think, within a week, I was back in Germany,
    which was very, very hard to accept.
    I was supposed to be a member of the German Olympic team.
    And that was something I couldn't understand and didn't
    understand for a very long time.
    I think I didn't understand it until I came over here and saw
    all the newspaper articles that had
    been written about my involvement with this time.
    The only reason I was supposed to be on that Olympic team
    was because the Americans, and the English,
    and the French, and a lot of the other nations
    threatened not to come to the 1936 Olympics
    due to discrimination of the Jews.
    And Hitler wanted to make this the best Olympics ever,
    use it as a propaganda vehicle.
    And he wanted, of course, the United States and all
    the big nations to be there.
    And this was the ruse that they used.
    I was the pigeon to help him get the 1936 Olympics settled
    in Berlin.
    They were already making a building
    and making a stadium and everything.
    But they were really afraid that it would not
    be a good Olympics for them because the big nations weren't
    going to show up.
    And that would take away from the Games, of course.
    So that's how I got on the German Olympic team.
    And it was tough.
    How did your father get this information
    that they wanted you to come back?
    It was very peculiar.
    My father told me at the time, the way
    he had to come to England to tell me in person,
    somebody showed up at our house in Laupheim to tell him that--
    he also could not write to my father--
    that the family would be in danger if I didn't come back.
    So this man traveled to Laupheim, told my father.
    My father traveled to England, told me.
    That was like a relay race, avoiding danger.
    You, as a Jewish athlete, we're going to--
    when you tell me that you were aware of--
    you later, at least, learned about the kind
    of international aspect of this.
    At the time, did you know that you were going
    to fill some symbolic role?
    No.
    But I knew that I would be the only Jew
    because there was nobody else.
    It sounds kind of conceited.
    But there really wasn't another 100% Jewish athlete
    who could have competed in the Olympics
    and having a chance to win a medal.
    They just weren't good enough.
    That's the way it was.
    In Germany.
    In Germany.
    And I didn't know that I was going to-- at first, that I
    was going to be the only one.
    And in Germany, nobody knew anything about this.
    This was strictly-- nothing was in the papers
    about this, that the Olympics were in such good shape.
    No, they only heard, the Olympics
    is going to be the best thing you ever experienced
    in Germany and all this stuff.
    And there was nothing in the papers
    that there was a danger that it wouldn't be--
    that it would be a flop.
    Do you remember the reaction of the German community
    to your coming back?
    I think that the Jewish community, they were very proud
    of me.
    After a while, word spread around
    that there's this Jewish girl who might
    be competing in the Olympics.
    And, of course, I was like the Great Jewish Hope.
    We had the Great White Hope, this boxer, whoever he was.
    I was the Great Jewish Hope.
    And people were proud of me.
    And they wished me the best.
    And it was a terrible time for me
    because I would be asked all these ridiculous questions.
    Are you going to be competing in the Olympics?
    And what are you going to do, and how are
    you going to conduct yourself?
    I said, I don't know.
    How do I know what's going to happen?
    I just have to play it by ear.
    And that's exactly what I did.
    So did you think that you would actually
    go forward and participate in the Olympics at this stage?
    Maybe I was hoping for it in a way.
    And maybe I was hoping for it--
    I need you to say--
    my question is--
    Oh, yeah.
    I'm sorry.
    Yeah.
    In a way, I was hoping I would be in the Olympics
    because to compete in the Olympic Games
    is a thrill of a lifetime.
    And it doesn't happen to everybody.
    You have to be good enough to do it.
    On the other hand, I was so afraid.
    Supposing I am allowed to compete, supposing I win--
    and I was convinced that I would win a medal and possibly
    the gold--
    supposing I do this, what do I do?
    I'm going to stand on that podium
    and say heil Hitler like all the others?
    That was the accepted way to say, well, I won.
    You had to stand up there and say, heil Hitler.
    And this to do for a Jewish girl would never do.
    I was scared stiff.
    And this was going around in my head, day and night, day
    and night, day and night.
    Oh, wow.
    What's going to happen?
    Am I going to compete?
    Am I not going to compete?
    How do I conduct myself if I do compete?
    It was a terrible time.
    So you were very conflicted about this.
    Oh, yes.
    I was so torn apart about it.
    I didn't know what to do.
    And it was not only that, but when
    I met with the other girls, non-Jewish competition,
    I was always afraid.
    How are they going to react to me?
    And at the Olympic training courses
    that I was ordered to attend, they
    couldn't have been any nicer.
    All the girls accepted me fully, no antisemitism, nothing.
    I was just an athlete like all the other athletes.
    And I wrote many, many years later--
    after 1980, I wrote to one of them.
    I said, I can't understand why you were so nice to me.
    Did you really know I was Jewish?
    And she wrote back to me, sure.
    I knew you were Jewish.
    But you were a good athlete like we were good athletes.
    And that was all that counted to us.
    And politics didn't mean anything to us,
    she said in the letter.
    But I'm sure that she, as well as many of the other girls,
    were members of the Nazi Party.
    There is this conflict again.
    They're Nazis.
    And still, they accept me, the Jewish girl--
    doesn't make any sense.
    It didn't make any sense.
    Why don't you get a drink of water?
    Your voice is getting a little-- sounding a little scratchy.
    Well, I just said--
    5 seconds and 14 minutes left.
    Oh, OK.
    Cool.
    So you came back to Germany a little bit confused
    but championed.
    What kind of training and preparation at this point
    were you able to participate in to get ready for the Olympics?
    I got back to Germany.
    I was hoping I would at least have
    a place where I could train.
    But the fact that I was a member of the German Olympic team
    did not allow me to use any of the stadiums.
    I was still a Jew who was not allowed to use any of this.
    So I had to use those poor facilities of the Jewish clubs
    and compete there for them.
    And that was absolutely terrible because first of all,
    there was no competition whatsoever.
    If you don't have any competition,
    you have to only fight yourself.
    And that's much harder than somebody who--
    if there's stiff competition, you try to outdo each other.
    But when there's no competition, it's very hard.
    So I always had to fight myself.
    And it was really very, very tough.
    And then, of course, all those stupid questions
    I had to answer-- everybody asked me,
    are you going to be in the Olympics?
    What are you going to do?
    I was a nervous wreck, I think, day and night.
    Things were on my mind.
    It was really horrible.
    And my parents and I, we didn't discuss it,
    because I knew they were worried about it.
    And they knew I was worried about it.
    So we didn't talk about it, because we
    didn't want to hurt each other's feelings, I suppose.
    So it was very hard.
    How does one train for the Olympics
    if you're not on the same playing field?
    You know what I mean?
    It doesn't sound like you had what you needed to get ready.
    I was ordered four times in those two years
    to go to an Olympic training course.
    And that's the only solid training
    I had for the Olympics.
    And as I said before--
    I think I said it before--
    I was a natural athlete.
    And if I hadn't been a natural athlete,
    I don't think I would have achieved
    what I did because there just wasn't
    any opportunity for me to get better
    or to advance or to know what I was doing.
    It just happened naturally.
    And, I think, also then what I've got to assume from
    this is that even if there had been good Jewish athletes,
    maybe not in your caliber but good Jewish athletes, clearly,
    they wouldn't have had an opportunity
    to progress and be competitive with the German athletes.
    Is that true?
    There were very few Jewish athletes
    who really were capable to compete on a national level.
    There were the best Jewish athletes, let's say.
    But they weren't the best German athletes.
    And they really couldn't compare.
    The were very, very few.
    And there were some--
    for instance, in the Olympics, there
    was a fencer, Helene Mayer.
    She was half-Jewish.
    They let her compete.
    I guess half-Jewish was only half
    as offensive as being all Jewish.
    And there were some half-Jewish athletes that
    competed, one in ice hockey.
    So he melted into the team.
    So he wouldn't stick out like I would have stuck out.
    But I don't think there were any Jewish athletes, really,
    that were capable of competing on a national level.
    They certainly didn't get the backing to get better.
    No.
    The Germans did another number of days--
    every time there were some newspaper articles
    written that they're not holding up their end about--
    they finally signed a commitment that they would not
    discriminate against Jewish athletes.
    They wrote it down.
    But there were always newspaper articles
    that they were not living up to their commitment.
    They wouldn't let me compete in the German National
    Championship.
    And they said, well, she was not entitled to compete in that,
    because she was not a member of the German Track and Field
    Association.
    And why wasn't I remember?
    Because I was Jewish.
    So it was like a dog chasing its tail.
    And so they had all kinds of ways
    to talk themselves out of it.
    In 1935, for instance, they got a little scared again.
    So they called all the best Jewish athletes
    for a training course, an Olympic training course.
    I said in an article once, I think
    Snow White and the seven dwarves would
    have done just as well as those athletes
    because they weren't any good.
    I happened to meet my husband there.
    That was the best part about this training course, really.
    But they really weren't good enough.
    But it was just a sham by the Germans to show, well,
    we're trying to find new talent for the Olympics
    in the Jewish community.
    But that was all baloney.
    Did you learn anything there?
    Did it give you an opportunity to get better?
    There was a very good coach there.
    But I think what he told me I knew already.
    By then, this is 1935 already.
    And the Olympics were the following year.
    And I did very well all along.
    In the training courses I always outdid the other--
    not in the Jewish one but in the other one,
    I always did better than the German girls.
    And whenever I competed-- it only happened three times,
    I think, in the two years--
    I always beat them.
    Even though only once did I have good competition
    with girls that were also going into the Olympics.
    The other times, I think I jumped about 15 inches higher
    than the next best.
    And there was no--
    I had no competition in that respect
    and in the Jewish competitions also.
    But the Germans always kept an eye out.
    Whenever I was competing someplace,
    there was always somebody watching out for the Nazis
    to make sure if I did poorly, they
    would have kicked me off the team immediately, I'm sure.
    You had mentioned that the other athletes treated you
    the same as anyone else.
    Did you feel that same equanimity from the officials
    and from the coaches?
    The coaches treated me very well.
    They saw-- and listen, not everybody was a Nazi.
    And they treated me well.
    And they like me, it seems.
    But the officials, whenever I had to compete at the--
    they were hostile.
    I think they were hostile towards me.
    One time I saw this fellow who was a member of my former club.
    I knew him as well as I knew myself.
    He looked through me like I didn't exist.
    He didn't say hello.
    He didn't-- I was just non-existent.
    And at that competition, they tried--
    the officials are supposed to be neutral--
    they tried to teach the other girls how they could beat me.
    They didn't do that, of course.
    They couldn't, because they weren't good enough.
    This must have been hurtful.
    Yes.
    But it made me better because I was so full of rage.
    The madder I got, the better I jumped.
    And the Germans didn't know that, of course.
    Otherwise, they might have treated me a little better.
    But I was so absolutely enraged about everything,
    the whole thing, these whole two years, that the madder I got,
    the better I did.
    And that was wonderful.
    So rage was your motivator.
    Rage was my fuel, fueled my energies--
    and my motivator.
    It was really weird.
    Took you on to new heights, huh?
    Uh-huh.
    5 minutes.
    So you're training, and you're taking sham courses.
    And you're continuing to work as if you are
    going to be in the Olympics.
    Was there a qualifying process?
    For instance, the German Track and Field Championships,
    they were supposed to be one of the events that
    would show who was going to be taken into consideration
    to compete for the Olympics.
    But they wouldn't let me compete,
    because I was not a member of the German Track and Field
    Association.
    So I couldn't compete.
    One time I had to compete in Munich,
    which was the scariest thing because Munich
    was the hotbed of Nazism.
    Hitler lived there.
    And I was scared stiff to go there.
    And I didn't do that well.
    And it was noted, duly noted by the Nazis
    that I only jumped a meter 53 instead of better.
    But still, I beat the competition by about 15 inches.
    But I didn't do as well, because I
    think I was mentally a wreck at the time.
    Were there other qualifying matches?
    Assuming that you were going to go forward and be
    in the Olympics at this point, were there other
    qualifying meets or anything like that?
    Or it was just--
    how does one then get in the Olympics and on the team?
    The gentile girls who were supposed
    to go into the Olympics, they had their own meets
    to which I was not admitted.
    And I think the whole deal was just if I did fairly well,
    they would not throw me out because they were still afraid
    that the boycott would happen.
    So, I think, no matter what I did,
    I was pretty safe at that point, even in Munich
    when I did not do too well.
    They couldn't afford to throw me out at that point,
    because they were still afraid the Americans wouldn't show up.
    So you just assumed you were going
    to be on the Olympic team.
    Yes, I think so.
    I think that I was going to be safe then until further notice.
    And I didn't know, was it going to be?
    Wasn't I going to be?
    What was I going to do?
    It was a terrible time.
    Tape change.
    Tape change.
    Thank you.
    OK.
    You were starting to tell me that, when you came back
    from England, your were able to go to some school?
    When I came back from England, I went
    to Stuttgart a couple of times during the month,
    because there, the Jewish Club had a stadium.
    And they had invited me to come and use that stadium.
    So I happened to learn about a school--
    not a Jewish school, it was Gentile-owned school--
    for physical education.
    So it was a private school, not a university.
    And I thought, well, I'll apply and see.
    If they take me, fine.
    If they don't take me, fine, too.
    And they did take me because they might have got--
    they had to get permission from the government
    that they could accept a Jew.
    And I suppose that was all in view of my
    being an Olympic candidate.
    And had they not let me go into that school,
    it might have come out into the other countries,
    and there might have been more problems for the Olympics
    for Germany.
    So they accepted me, and I had a good time there.
    We were all very friendly.
    The girls were all friendly there.
    And it was a big town, and I could go in the afternoon,
    after we were finished practicing,
    we would go into this cafe and make pigs out
    of ourselves eating whipped cream cake and everything.
    And we had a terrific time there.
    And we were very friendly, and it was nice.
    The only thing that would prevent me,
    the curriculum had in it German gymnastics.
    And they wouldn't let me take part in the German gymnastics.
    Now, why, I don't know, because the Jew
    and the German gymnastics, maybe that was too much of a paradox.
    I don't know.
    But the other girls, we just laughed about it.
    We thought it was funny.
    And by then, I was so used to being excluded
    that it wasn't such a big deal.
    But here you were going to the cafe and hanging out.
    Yes, it was good.
    It was good.
    It was a big time in a big town, you could do more things.
    You could go to the movies.
    And we did do a foolish thing one time with these girls.
    We were having a lot of good times,
    and laughing and carrying on.
    And there was about six of us.
    And there was a table full of uniformed SS
    men at the next table.
    And they kept looking at us and looking at us.
    Finally, they came over and they tried to make dates with us.
    And there's this big German blond guy
    trying to make a date with me.
    And I said no, and I said no.
    And the more he tried to make a date with me,
    the more the other girls laughed.
    And we got hysterical.
    And it was funny and it was stupid at the same time,
    because had I been found out, I don't know
    what would have happened to me.
    But we were young, and you didn't really
    think of any consequences that much.
    I've heard that, prior to the Olympics,
    Germany really tried to sanitize its anti-Semitism, the signs,
    the way people were treated.
    Was that apparent to you at all in Germany?
    I didn't really see these anti-Semitic signs.
    I mean, I knew I was excluded from all public places,
    but I don't think I saw ever any signs because I just didn't pay
    any attention to it, I suppose.
    I only noticed those in 1937.
    But I know that Brundage, the head of the American Olympic
    Committee, went over to Germany to see what was going on
    because there was so much resistance
    in America against taking part in the Olympics.
    So he went over there.
    And I read later on, doing some research,
    that Berlin was manicured terrifically.
    Everything was clean.
    All the offending signs, dogs and Jews
    not allowed, et cetera, et cetera, they were all gone.
    And Mr. Brundage who was not a champion for Jewish causes,
    as I have heard, never spoke to any Jewish people.
    He just left himself being lulled into some false security
    by these Nazis saying everything is fine,
    we are doing everything we said we would do.
    And he came back to the United States
    and said everything is fabulous over there, and we'll be going.
    So you were aware of efforts in other countries
    to boycott the Olympics?
    Not at that time.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Yes, I was not aware of it at all.
    So prior to the Olympics, was there
    some qualifying meet in Stuttgart?
    Yes.
    After the--
    Oh actually-- I'm sorry to interrupt you, I want
    to ask you, this school that you went
    to in Stuttgart, this non-Jewish school,
    did it afford you an opportunity to really
    get ready for the Olympics?
    The school was very nice because I
    was able to do as much as I wanted to in sports.
    My body was reacting.
    The first few weeks, I was a complete wreck
    because my body wasn't used to this kind of--
    being used so much.
    But after a while, my muscles got supple again,
    and it was great to be back into every day being into sports.
    We had gymnastics, we had track and field,
    we played team sports.
    It was very nice.
    And the first day I was scared stiff
    because I didn't know how the girls would react to me,
    and they greeted me, what's your name?
    My name is Bergman.
    OK, you're Bergie from now on.
    And we were all the best of friends.
    It was really very nice.
    Were these facilities comparable to what the German athletes
    were practicing on?
    No.
    I mean, the track and field that they used was not bad,
    but it wasn't in very good shape, either.
    And the male teacher there, if he could beat me
    in high jumping, which was really my specialty,
    he was so proud of himself.
    And I mean, as a man, he should have
    been doing much better than I did,
    but if he just beat me by an inch, he was very happy.
    OK, so I had started and then interrupt you about this
    meet in Stuttgart.
    There must have been quite some protests again
    in the United States.
    I know that a senator or congressman Celler,
    he was pleading in the Congress not to send a team over.
    There were protest meets in Madison Square Garden, where
    20,000 people showed up.
    There was a lot of resistance.
    And this must have been the reason why they invited me
    to come to Stuttgart-- and that was in 1936--
    to compete at a meet there.
    And it was really rough.
    When you're the only Jew, if the spectators knew
    that I was Jewish, they didn't wish me well.
    I knew that much.
    And the officials were hostile.
    I think I mentioned that before.
    And it was very hard to compete against myself.
    But I was so mad that I equaled the German record.
    The German record then was five foot three.
    And I equaled that.
    I must have cleared it by 15 inches at the time.
    I was so angry.
    And usually, you have three tries for each height.
    You started four, six, let's say.
    And you do it the first time fine.
    But you have to go over it by the third try,
    otherwise you were eliminated.
    Well, all the other girls were out by--
    they did about four, eight, and they were all out.
    And I kept going, and going, and going.
    And every height I jumped over the first time.
    So I did the five, three.
    And I think the officials most likely would have liked
    to poison me but they didn't.
    And I was just so elated.
    I thought this is the best thing that ever happened to me,
    you know, those lousy Nazis.
    And after that I went home, I think, and wanted
    to share this with my family.
    And I think that was the last time
    that I stayed in Stuttgart.
    I went home then and I said--
    now, well, this is four weeks before the Olympics start.
    I better go home and see what happens.
    So I went home, and my parents were happy,
    my brothers were happy that I did this.
    And I looked for the mail every day and what's going to happen,
    you know.
    What excuse are they going to use?
    There was only one other German girl
    who was capable of doing this height.
    And if they don't want me in there,
    how are they going to get rid of me?
    And I was really scared.
    Are they going to break my leg?
    What are they going to do to eliminate me?
    But it was very simple one day a letter came and it
    said in view of the fact that you have been doing
    very poorly lately, we did not select you
    for the Olympic team.
    Heil Hitler.
    And that was the end of it.
    I remember me sitting outside on the stoop
    and I got this letter.
    And I must have used every profanity I knew.
    And I knew a lot of them.
    And at the same time, I had such an incredible feeling
    of relief.
    It's all over now.
    Now, I know what's going to happen to me.
    I know.
    It was just like the biggest load
    was lifted off my shoulders.
    You know, that was such a paradox.
    That I was angry, very, very angry at the same time.
    So relieved.
    And I don't remember a thing about the Olympics.
    Just stop you a minute.
    Why were you so relieved?
    Well, all this time, I was worried how, first of all,
    am I going to compete?
    Am I not going to compete?
    How are they going to eliminate me?
    Or what am I going to do if I do compete, and I do win a medal?
    And I know the German way to acknowledge a victory,
    you stand up on the podium and you Heil Hitler?
    And I didn't see that happening for me too easily.
    That would be-- I mean, how can you expect a German girl
    to stand there and raise her arm in the Hitler salute?
    You mean a Jewish girl.
    A Jewish girl.
    This was on my mind for two years.
    And all of a sudden, I didn't have to worry about it anymore.
    And that was a terrific relief.
    Did you also think about the crowd reaction
    or the government reaction to a win on your part?
    Had I won the Olympics or had I been
    allowed to compete in the Olympics,
    I would have been a loser either way.
    Because had I won, there would have been such an insult
    against the German psyche.
    How can a Jew be good enough to win the Olympics?
    That I would have had to be afraid for my life, I'm sure.
    And had I lost, I would have been made as a joke.
    See, we knew the Jew couldn't do this.
    And that was on my mind all these years.
    So you got this letter.
    Excuse me.
    You got this letter that said, sorry, you're not good enough,
    even though you had just competed
    and had tied the German record.
    Didn't make much sense.
    I think that was the first time I really
    realized that my candidacy as an Olympic athlete
    was really all a sham.
    It was just something that the Germans
    did to fool the whole world.
    Maybe that's when I realized it.
    I really don't even know.
    I think I have complete amnesia what happened to me after this.
    I cannot remember whether I watched the Olympics.
    I mean watch-- you couldn't watch it,
    there was no television.
    Whether I listened to the Olympics,
    whether I followed the Olympics in the newspaper,
    I have no idea.
    I can not.
    I have complete amnesia about it.
    You don't know where you were?
    I knew where I was except I did not want
    to think about the Olympics.
    As a matter of fact, you know, people
    were, oh, maybe it's for the best.
    And my parents looked at me feeling sorry for me,
    and my brothers looked at me feeling sorry for me,
    and is she going to freak out, or what's
    going to happen to her?
    I said, I'll have to get away from me here.
    And I went to a spa, under an assumed name, of course.
    I couldn't afford to.
    Nobody would take me if they knew I was Jewish.
    And I sat there for two weeks not talking to anybody.
    I did not want to be bothered with anybody.
    And I was just thinking about all this
    and what was going to happen, and what did happen.
    And that's when I realized I have to get out of Germany.
    And I just made up my mind.
    I'm going to have to leave.
    So you weren't-- at least you don't remember being very aware
    of the Olympics?
    That you tuned that out.
    I had complete-- I to this day, I can't remember what I did.
    But I knew who did what.
    Or I know this one person that I knew that
    later on that she came in third.
    Girl I was very friendly with.
    She came in third in the high jump, a German girl.
    But whether I realized it at the time, I do not know.
    I cannot remember.
    What point do you think you came to?
    And realized that the Olympics have taken place
    and you weren't there, of course.
    Yes.
    I think that I only realized what was really going on
    once I came over to the States.
    Friends of ours had saved all the newspaper
    articles where my name appeared, you
    know, with all the ups and downs of whether--
    what the Germans said, and what the Americans said,
    and what was going on, and all their promises,
    and all their excuses, the German excuses.
    And I think that's the first time I really
    realized how I was used as a political football.
    Did the winners in your events--
    were the winners German?
    Would your record have been competitive in the high jump?
    The high jump in the Olympics was
    won with a height of 5 foot 3.
    The height I had reached four weeks earlier--
    and I had the best chance to win a medal.
    I could have had the gold medal.
    Because as I said, when I got mad, I did better.
    So I would have been mighty mad seeing all those people out
    there with the uniforms on, all the swastikas flying.
    I would have been really mad.
    And I know I had a very good chance to win a medal.
    Now, was it hard for you to come over to the United States?
    When did you come over here?
    Well, when I came back from that spa, I told my parents,
    I'm leaving.
    I cannot stay over here anymore.
    This has no future for me.
    My brother had left already.
    He came to the States in January, I believe.
    No, no, no, no, that was later.
    I said, I'm leaving.
    And my father had a very good friend who came from this town
    and who emigrated to the United States, became very rich here.
    And when he visited in our town, I was the big shot, you know,
    the Olympic candidate.
    And he said to me, oh, any time you
    want to come to the United States, just let me know
    and I'll give you all the papers.
    So we wrote him a letter and said that we were now
    ready to accept his offer.
    And very quick a letter came back saying,
    well, times are very bad in the United States
    and you might not be able to find a job.
    And maybe things will get better in Germany,
    and maybe you should rethink your future.
    Maybe you should stay and see what happens.
    And my father wrote him a very strong letter back,
    and he finally did give me the papers
    and I was able to come to the United States.
    When was that?
    I came to the United States in May of 1937.
    When you came over here, did you decide
    to pursue your athletic career?
    Or had you been completely soured?
    When I came over here, the first thing I had to do
    was make some money.
    Because the Germans allowed each immigrant
    to take along $4 and a camera, which everybody sold and lived
    on until they found a job.
    And I had the same thing.
    And the first thing I had to do was find a job.
    But somehow, an article appeared in the long-defunct Royal
    Telegram, a newspaper, a New York newspaper,
    about me arriving.
    I don't know.
    I think my brother must have been
    managing to get this in there.
    And talking about what had happened to me.
    And one day, a coach showed up at my house
    and said, listen, I have a track and field team
    and would you like to compete for me.
    And I said, you bet.
    And that was it.
    And he wasn't a very good coach.
    He was an undertaker.
    And I kept teasing him that I thought the bodies that he
    prepared for wherever these bodies were going,
    were in better shape than the bodies he prepared
    to compete at the track meet.
    But he tried hard.
    And I competed here several events.
    And I did OK.
    You weren't turned off by sports?
    No.
    I mean, you weren't sick of the whole thing?
    No, I really wanted to get back into it.
    And I was right away very successful.
    So that kept me going, I suppose.
    The first year I was here, I won the American Championship
    in high jumping.
    I won the American Championship in shot put,
    weighing all of 112 pounds, beating out
    my competition who must have been twice my size and twice
    my weight.
    And that really gave me a good feeling.
    Do you feel somewhat vindicated in a way?
    That finally you had an opportunity to show your stuff?
    It felt very good because I knew that somehow, word
    had to get back to Germany that I did win.
    And that made me feel very good.
    But I knew it wouldn't be in any newspapers,
    it would be like word of mouth, you know.
    And I know that people who wished me well-- and there
    were some Germans.
    I mean, not every German was a Nazi.
    They would be happy for me.
    I think we're close to the end of my questions.
    Well, how many?
    Stop.
    OK.
    What about your family?
    Were they able to get out of Germany?
    We were very worried about my family.
    My brother came here a few months before I did.
    And we were very worried about my family.
    And finally, somehow, my father was
    able to get out even though it was a miracle.
    They took all the people who they wanted,
    the Germans, whom they wanted to keep in Germany.
    They just took their passports away.
    So there was no way for them to get out.
    And my father had a work permit for England,
    which was pretty hard to get.
    But he had done business with England quite a bit.
    And he got that work permit.
    And that was about to expire.
    So he went to the authorities and said, listen,
    can I have my passport back?
    I need to have my work permit renewed.
    And somebody gave him this passport.
    And my father said, we are leaving.
    So they packed the little suitcase, little clean
    underwear, and they all took off.
    My brother, my mother.
    Then left the house, left everything back,
    and went to the next town, went to the next town,
    went to the next town.
    Finally ended up in Cologne, where they took a plane
    and flew to England.
    Were you able to communicate with them
    once you left Germany?
    Oh, yes.
    We wrote to each other all the time.
    But you had to be extremely careful what you wrote.
    For instance, there was the Crystal Night,
    and they took all the men from, I think, the age of 18
    to maybe 60, and took them to concentration camps.
    And we had no idea, was my father taken or wasn't he?
    And my mother wrote a letter that dad was quite ill
    and had to go away.
    So we knew that he was gone.
    And we tried everything.
    You know, Congressmen, and tried to get him back.
    And he finally did come back after four weeks,
    weighing 80 pounds, and signing himself
    into the hospital in Laupheim.
    And the next day, the nuns who ran the hospital came to him,
    said, you have to leave.
    The authorities told me we can't keep Jews here.
    So they threw him out, weighing 80 pounds.
    And he had to recuperate another way.
    And I still blame them, apart from his smoking cigarettes,
    that he died of a very sudden death, of a heart attack.
    Where was he sent?
    Dachau.
    That's near Munich.
    And they took all their clothing away,
    dressed them in these clothes, you know,
    like you see in the old movies with the stripes, the cotton,
    the cotton suits.
    And they had to stand outside from 5 o'clock in the morning--
    and it was November.
    Until 11 o'clock at night.
    No, no warm underwear.
    No nothing.
    And I mean, this is what they did.
    This is in '38/'39?
    I think it was in '39.
    I don't know, the Crystal Night.
    It was November--
    I can't remember--
    --of '38.
    --was it?
    It was '38
    I think it was '38.
    November.
    Yeah.
    When you got this letter saying your father had to go away,
    what was going through your mind?
    Well, we just tried to get him out of there, you know.
    We wrote to everybody that we could think of
    to try to get him out.
    And whether it was that we were successful
    or whether they were just saying,
    well, let's just get those old guys out of here,
    you know, after four weeks or five weeks he came home.
    And my husband's brother and future brother-in-law,
    they were also in Dachau.
    And the Germans told them, if you can go someplace,
    leave Germany today, you can leave.
    So China was the only country that
    would take you without any red tape,
    so they bought steamship tickets to China and went to China.
    Was he taken-- did they give him a reason why they
    were taking him, your father?
    No that was just--
    you know, was a fun thing to do, I suppose, for the Nazis.
    I think we're going to change the tape.
    I don't have much else to ask you.
    But I did want to check with Tom in the other room and Steve,
    just make sure that we--
    [BEEP]
    I wanted to ask you, even though you didn't follow the Olympics
    at the time, what kind of team did
    Germany present in the high jump here event.
    In the high jump, usually, they're
    always three competitors for each event.
    Three in the dash and three in the shot-put, and three
    in the long jump, and they only had two girls in the high jump,
    and that was a little bit unusual.
    And a long time later, I found out that the team was told that
    Bergmann is injured and cannot compete.
    But I also had a suspicion that they
    were trying to maneuver this whole thing,
    because a letter was sent around that those who were in the--
    Olympic candidates should not expect
    to be chosen, some of them and that they did not measure up,
    and in some events, there would only be two competitors.
    And I think that was really done for my sake
    already, because they were already trying to get rid of me
    somehow.
    Maybe, I'm not sure, but it seemed
    to be very unusual that there would only
    be two girls in the high jump.
    When did you get this letter?
    I think a letter came in the winter before the Olympics.
    I'll have to check the date.
    What role, if any, do you think the 1936 Olympics played
    in bolstering the Nazis for what was to come?
    Adolf Hitler tried to use these Olympics as his propaganda
    vehicle to show the world how powerful he was,
    to show the world how unified Germany was,
    and I think he tried to scare the world into not standing up
    against him, somehow.
    That's the way I have to look at it.
    The Olympics were a great success for Germany
    at the time, and they built this beautiful stadium.
    People found work due to the Olympics
    or help the Nazis through to succeed.
    So you think he did gain from--
    He definitely did gain from it, and I've
    seen it written in a book someplace about how
    the Olympics are supposed to bring the youth of the world
    together and that somebody made the remark that, in 1936,
    the youth of the world came together in these Olympics,
    and four years later, they were coming together
    against each other in a battlefield,
    then the war started in 1940.
    You mentioned that your immediate family
    was able to get out of Germany.
    Did you lose friends or family members?
    Unfortunately, my husband's parents
    and many of his relatives were not able to get out,
    and we really tried so hard, and we had to battle people
    here to help, and there was so little help to be had.
    My husband has very rich relatives over there.
    They had the jewelry store in New York and were very rich,
    and I approached them for papers for him, and they refused.
    And I made out his papers for him.
    I mean, I got him out like--
    it was really not quite honest got him here,
    but we didn't even think about approaching them
    for his parents, because we knew they wouldn't do it.
    And we tried to get them into Cuba,
    and people would buy visas for Cuba for $400
    and we got two visas for them, and just when their turn was
    about to come, these visas were found out to be phony,
    and that avenue was shut off so.
    And they were also a little bit reluctant.
    My father-in-law never could understand
    that this could happen to him.
    So he said, I've been living in this town forever.
    We were friends with everybody.
    They can't do anything to us or nothing
    is going to happen to us, and then
    when he did realize that he should have done something
    it was too late.
    There were many--
    I don't remember how many relatives.
    I think of at least 15 or 30.
    I don't remember how many and in my family too some.
    And friends.
    Who didn't have the notion of getting out?
    Right.
    It was-- the American people, a lot of them
    did not kill themselves.
    They made all the big speeches how helpful they wanted to be.
    Like my sponsor, when it came down to it,
    he wasn't so anxious, except my brother who--
    that was the father of the motion picture industry
    by name of Carl Laemmle.
    I mean, he's a very famous man.
    He came to the United States from Laupheim,
    and he made out 300 affidavits.
    Anybody who approached him for papers, he made them out,
    and he wasn't sure whether these people weren't
    going to sit on his pocket eventually,
    but he was wonderful.
    But I think the American people, in general,
    were not very generous in that respect.
    When you think back about 1936, what you must do occasionally,
    what sort of an impact do you think
    it had on your life, these experiences?
    I think it made me a lot tougher to face what I had to face,
    and my fear was very, very hard in the beginning.
    I've worked as a housemaid for $10 a week,
    and even though life was a lot cheaper then,
    you couldn't get very far with $10 a day.
    My husband worked as a house painter.
    Being a physician, he worked as a house painter
    when he arrived over here.
    It made us, I think, tougher what we went through.
    And it might have helped us, even though it was a pretty
    tough school to go through.
    Anything else you want to add?
    Well, one thing I should mention maybe.
    I recently got a letter from the German National Olympic
    Committee, and they invited me to be the guest of honor
    at the Atlanta Olympic Games from July the 19th
    until August the 3rd, and although I have never gone back
    to Germany and they had invited me
    before for some other occasion, I
    have accepted this invitation, and I
    think it'll be a very emotional thing for me.
    But I said to my husband, what goes around comes around,
    and I think I've got to make my peace with this thing at last,
    even though it gnawed on me all these years.
    And every time the Olympics come around,
    I get mad as hell again.
    I say, why?
    Why did this happen to me?
    But I've got to make peace before I
    go I'm going to go, up or down, I don't know.
    So I'm looking forward to that, and I think
    it was a very nice gesture.
    They have tried to--
    and the town where I come from also,
    they have tried very hard to make amends.
    They take care of the Jewish cemetery.
    Not a single Jew went back to that town,
    but the citizens of the town take care of the cemetery,
    and they have Jewish artists come
    and they have all kinds of activities
    to do not to let the Jewish life that once was there die,
    and I think that helped me too, because even though I would
    have never, never thought of going back,
    I was invited three times from the town to go.
    And some people went and had a very good time.
    I said, no, I will never set foot on German soil again,
    and I won't.
    I don't know how long I'll last, but I'll never go back.
    But I did accept that invitation,
    and I'm looking forward to it.
    One last question, I guess.
    Do you think-- this is typical producer.
    Just one more question.
    Do you think had there been more of a public reaction, boycott
    or whatever, that it would have made any difference in terms
    of what followed the Olympics?
    Any boycott that would have happened
    would have influenced only the Olympic games.
    That it would not have been the huge success that Hitler
    expected from it, but Hitler and Nazis,
    they would have gone on no matter what,
    even if only one other country would have shown up
    to participate in the Olympics.
    I don't think it had anything to do with what
    he wanted to accomplish.
    He wanted to conquer the world, and he would have gone forward
    no matter what, and I don't think
    that the Olympics, in that respect, had anything
    to do with it.
    In retrospect, do you think--
    do you have any feelings?
    I mean, you didn't have much choice in Germany,
    but do you have any feelings about
    German-- the Jewish athletes in other countries who did
    participate that maybe they should have stayed home?
    Well, there are two train of thoughts.
    They could have stayed home or they could have come
    and showed what a Jew could do.
    As a matter of fact, I think the high jump was
    won by a Czech Jewish girl, and I
    think that was like spitting in Hitler's eye.
    See?
    The Jews, they can do it.
    And I think there was some that didn't come,
    and that was whatever they wanted
    to decide about their lives.
    But I think they only hurt themselves,
    and it didn't make an impact.
    I think it had more impact for the Jews
    to go there and beat the Germans than to stay home
    and say I'm not going.
    I have that much respect for myself that I won't go.
    I don't think that that was the--
    the ones that did it, I respect them for it.
    But the ones who didn't do it, they
    have my respect too, because they
    did what I would have them.
    Beat the Nazis.
    Thank you.
    Thank you.

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Margaret Lambert (née Gretl Bergman), born April 12, 1914, discusses her childhood in Laupheim, Germany; her involvement in various sports as a child; her memories of antisemitism after the Nazis took power in 1933; her relationships with non-Jewish friends and athletes; moving to England in October 1933 to attend school and to train; her victory at the British National Championships in June 1934; returning to Germany to become a member of the 1936 German Olympic team; her relationships with other athletes and coaches on the German team while training for the Olympics; her reflections on how she depended on her anger toward the Nazis to help her succeed in the running and jumping events; her time in school and training in Stuttgart, Germany; her outstanding performance in qualifying events in Stuttgart just prior to the Olympics; her dismissal from the German Olympic team following the qualifying events in Stuttgart; immigrating to the United States in May 1937; her father's brief imprisonment in the Dachau concentration camp in 1938; her family's escape from Germany to England in 1939; her impressions of the Olympic Games as Nazi propaganda; and her decision to attend the Olympic Games in Atlanta in 1996 as a special guest of the German government.
    Interviewee
    Ms. Margaret Lambert
    Interviewer
    Randy M. Goldman
    Date
    interview:  1996 May 20

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Genre/Form
    Oral histories.
    Extent
    4 videocasettes (Betacam SP) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Bergmann, Gretel, 1914-

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Exhibition Department produced the interview with Margaret Lambert in preparation for the exhibit, "The Nazi Olympics, Berlin 1936."
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:31:42
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn504456

    Additional Resources

    Transcripts (5)
    Time Coded Notes (4)

    Download & Licensing

    In-Person Research

    Contact Us

    Also in The Nazi Olympics: Berlin 1936 oral history collection

    Contains interviews conducted in May 1996 by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's Exhibitions Department in preparation for "The Nazi Olympics: Berlin 1936" exhibition. The interviewees include: Milton Green, John Woodruff, Herman Goldberg, Marty Glickman, and Margaret Lambert. The interviews document the lives of five athletes and their experiences during the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, Germany

    Date: 1996

    Oral history interview with Milton Green

    Oral history interview with Milton Green

    Oral History

    Milton Green, born circa 1914 in Lowell, MA, discusses his childhood in Brookline, MA; his three siblings; attending Reform Temple with his family; his early interest in track and field sports; his participation in track sports while studying at Harvard University; receiving a certificate from Avery Brundage, of the American Olympic Committee, informing him of his qualification for final Olympic Team tryouts at Randall Island, NY; deciding with his teammate Norman Carnis to boycott the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, Germany at the urging of Rabbi Levi and other members of the Temple Israel; meeting with Harvard track coach Yacko Macola, who attempted to persuade him not to boycott the Olympics; following the 1936 Olympic events by radio and newspaper; his thoughts on the lack of an overall United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; enlisting in the United States Navy in 1943; being in Scouting Squadron 31 as an air combat intelligence officer; and leaving the service in 1946.

    Oral history interview with John Woodruff

    Oral history interview with John Woodruff

    Oral History

    John Woodruff, born July 5, 1915, discusses his childhood in Connellsville, PA; his introduction to track and field sports in high school; his memories of racism in Connellsville and at the University of Pittsburgh; his impressions of Adolf Hitler and Germany's treatment of the Jews at the time of the 1936 Olympic Games; his memories of the 1936 U. S. Olympic team's voyage to Berlin; training before the games; the athletes’ lifestyle in the Olympic village and relationships with fellow athletes; his recollections of Marty Glickman and Sam Stohler and the controversy over their exclusion from the 1936 Games; his memories of winning the 800 meter race and receiving the gold medal; his return to the United States and the University of Pittsburgh; his memories of Jesse Owens during and after the 1936 Games; his experiences of racism after returning to the United States; his impressions of Hitler's actions after 1936 and the use of the Olympic Games as propaganda; his relationship with Marty Glickman; and his recollections of the opening and closing ceremonies of the 1936 Olympic Games.

    Oral history interview with Herman Goldberg

    Oral history interview with Herman Goldberg

    Oral History

    Herman Goldberg, born in November 1915, discusses his childhood and family in Brooklyn, NY; the importance of sports in his life; playing baseball at Brooklyn College and in the Canadian American League, where he was catcher for the Rome Colonels; his selection for the 1936 United States Olympic Baseball Team at pre-Olympic try outs in Baltimore, MD; his participation in exhibition baseball at the 1936 Olympics; his participation in baseball demonstrations throughout Germany immediately after the Olympics; discovering that the Olympic village would be used for the German Army after the close of the games; his memories of the voyage with the United States team to Germany; his memories of the proposed United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; and his impressions of Adolf Hitler's behavior during the various events of the Olympics, especially when black or Jewish athletes won medals.

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral History

    Marty Glickman (né Martin Irvin Glickman), born in 1917 in Bronx, NY, discusses his childhood and growing up in Brooklyn, NY; his Romanian parents; his participation in sports throughout his childhood and youth; his competition with Ben Johnson and realizing his potential to compete in the Olympics; his memories of antisemitism in Europe and the United States; his races against Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe during the Olympic qualification events at Randall Island, NY; the voyage to Germany with the 1936 U.S. Olympic Team; his memories of a possible United States boycott of the 1936 Olympic Games; his friendship with Herman Goldberg, a member of the 1936 U.S. Baseball Team; his views on the role of politics in the Olympic Games; the arrival and reception of the U.S. Team in Berlin, Germany; Hitler's reaction to the victorious black athletes; his memories of the Olympic village in Berlin and the opening ceremonies; the controversy that arose when he and Sam Stohler were removed from the 400 meter relay and replaced with Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalf; the role of Dean Cromwell, the American track coach, in excluding Glickman and Stohler from the relay; his memories of watching Owens and Metcalfe win the relay; his views on the involvement of Avery Brundage, President of the American Olympic Committee, in having him and Stohler removed from the relay; his experience with racism in 1937, when a fellow Syracuse football teammate was excluded from a game because he was black; and his hopes to compete in other Olympics after 1936.

    View All 5 Items in the Collection