Oral history interview with David Saltman
Transcript
- Recording the remarks made by David Saltman on April
- the 20th, 1986 at 9:25 PM, at my residence
- at 201 Allen Park Road.
- This tape is being sponsored by the Oral History
- Project of the Jewish Federation, which
- is involved in recording the stories
- or comments or testimony of the Holocaust victims in this area.
- Mr. Saltman was an officer in Patton's Army
- who fought in Europe, and at the conclusion of the war
- was the Prisoner of War Affairs Officer for one
- of Patton's divisions.
- The next voice you hear will be that of Mr. Saltman.
- At the time that I'm recording this,
- at the end of World War II in Europe,
- I was a captain in the Army of the United States.
- The war in Europe finished.
- And my last point in our combat area
- was at the Elbe River near the city of Magdeburg,
- which is East Germany.
- We were waiting there, waiting for the Russians
- to catch up to us since we had advanced so rapidly.
- They had not yet reached their sector.
- When they reached the opposite side of the Elbe River,
- there was a dead silence, and they refused to cross.
- It is ironic that after the Germans had
- blown the bridge in our faces across the Elbe River,
- those able-bodied ones swam across
- to surrender to the Americans rather than surrender
- to the Russians.
- This particular sector was given back.
- And the army of occupation was given to the Russians
- for the sole purpose of occupying it
- according to a pre-arranged agreement between Stalin,
- Roosevelt, and Churchill.
- The American Army was to go back down south,
- covering the area of Germany, generally Bavaria and an area
- to the north.
- The British had their sector.
- And the Russians had took over the northern sector of Germany.
- When I got to Bavaria, I was assigned
- to headquarters, Third United States Army, commanded
- by General George Patton.
- My job was Prisoner of War Hospital Officer
- for what is known as Patton's District of Columbia, which
- is Third US Army headquarters, covering the area from Munich,
- Germany to Salzburg, Austria.
- At that time, I was given freedom and flexibility.
- My mission was the security of German prisoners of war
- who were hospitalized.
- Therefore, my time was my own.
- As part of this particular operation,
- I visited Dachau to see what it was like.
- In Dachau, we had already released
- all of the Jewish displaced persons,
- and we filled it with German SS.
- That was a very large, sprawling camp.
- And I also made it my business to visit the ovens where
- so many Jews were cremated.
- The ovens were very small, and it is quite obvious
- to see why Jews were starved to death
- before they were burned to death.
- The ovens were too small to take care
- of any Jews of normal weight.
- I saw footprints on the wall--
- I repeat, on the wall--
- because the bodies were stacked up like so much firewood.
- I also took occasion to study Germany,
- and I found myself a German interpreter.
- I also found a very unusual German,
- one of the rank of baron, who spoke excellent English
- and who was one of these rare Germans who
- escaped occupation and the German Wehrmacht, or the SS.
- He knew the Germans well, and he helped me considerably
- as I recorded the story.
- And I wrote a large article called, "A Study of Germany
- from VE to VJ Day" while I was stationed
- in Bavaria, Southern Germany.
- I also had occasion to interview a guard
- at Dachau who claims he knew nothing
- of what was going on in the furnaces and in the camps.
- I also had a young lady with me who
- had graduated from one of the German universities,
- also very fluent in English, and whose father was a lieutenant
- colonel in the German Wehrmacht.
- None of them could ever believe that a guard could be in Dachau
- and not know what is going on.
- I would believe that because in the rank and file
- they don't know what's going on at the top command.
- There is no question about the extermination.
- There is no question about the cruelty.
- And there's also no question about the fact
- that the Germans always follow a leader, admire a leader.
- And that made it possible for Hitler
- to succeed as leader of Germany.
- It may be interesting to note that this young lady's
- father, whom I met later on, who was a lieutenant
- colonel in the German Army, was stationed at the Russian front.
- At the time, they had a non-aggression treaty
- between Germany and Russia.
- Hitler violated that.
- And as battalion commander, he felt very much ashamed
- when he was given orders, along with other artillery units,
- to open fire against the Russians.
- You may call this man a war criminal.
- In my mind, he is not.
- He was in command of an artillery battalion.
- He had no choice.
- I do not consider him a criminal.
- In his heart, he did not like what he had to do,
- but he did it.
- At the same time, back at the headquarters Third Army area,
- in a town called Bad Tolz, which, incidentally,
- still represents one of the headquarters areas in Germany
- of the United States Army--
- that area was once a German Army headquarters.
- And even now, in 1986, the American Army
- has used it as one of their many bases.
- What can we say about history today?
- It is true that the young Germans
- don't know what it's about.
- And I hear many stories that many of them
- do not believe that there were any such thing as an atrocity
- of around 6 million Jews.
- There are many people in the United States of America
- who share the same opinion.
- They were never there.
- But the atrocities and all the pictures taken,
- official pictures taken by the United States Army which would
- show the emaciated victims--
- and there were many of those taken--
- bear mute evidence, bear pictorial evidence
- to the Holocaust area.
- I'm going to come along and turn the clock forward to a visit
- that I paid to Germany in 1984.
- I visited an American officer and one of the many camps
- at Stuttgart in Germany.
- And this particular officer, who was a major in the Joint NATO
- Command headquarters, when I asked him point blank, what
- is the danger of Nazism springing up again,
- and his comment was simple.
- That is not the area of a problem.
- The Middle East is a problem.
- And remember, this is 1984.
- We can take the Holocaust and hate Germany.
- But in 1986, we'd better like West Germany
- because without them, there would be no North Atlantic
- Treaty Organization.
- The city of Stuttgart is especially
- heavily-ringed with American camps.
- There are many American camps all over Germany.
- And without their cooperation, NATO would not exist.
- Every country is selfish and does the minimum.
- Shall we say, forget Germany?
- Forget the German atrocities?
- The Jews do not have to come along and go back as early
- as World War II to think of atrocities
- all through our civilized history.
- We can go back to the time of the Egyptians,
- when the Jews were in slavery.
- And the question of Holocaust tragedies and murder
- and indifference continue today, especially
- with the Afghans in Afghanistan under Russian control.
- There is a time to be sensible and a time to remember.
- Japan started World War II.
- Today we are very friendly with Japan,
- even though we did drop an atomic bomb to bring the war
- to a quicker conclusion.
- Mr. Saltman, it's been a privilege to listen to you.
- But may I ask a few questions?
- I'd like to ask you if, in 1945, when
- you were with the German prisoners of war at Dachau,
- were there any Jews at all that you witnessed in the area
- at all?
- Or had all the Jews left the area?
- When I was in that area that I talked about between Munich
- and Salzburg, Austria, all of the displaced persons
- had left the area.
- There were none in prison camps.
- To your knowledge, had any of them
- been moved to other camps, displaced
- persons camps within that particular area you were in?
- No.
- We were not interested in trying to--
- we did not believe in imprisoning Jewish people
- or any displaced people.
- I may have phrased it wrong or been misunderstood.
- I merely meant that when the Jewish displaced persons were
- taken from the camps, they had no place to go.
- And there must have been areas where
- they were, where they could get food and clothing
- and directions and assistance--
- psychological, medical, et cetera.
- Were there any in your area at the conclusion of the war?
- There were none in my area in that so-called District
- of Columbia that I mentioned.
- Of course, we took care of them and gave them
- food, shelter, and clothing.
- I think I mentioned the fact that we did--
- after we took the displaced Jewish people out of Dachau,
- that we filled it up with SS prisoners of war.
- And we really had it filled and jammed to the rafters.
- I would like to ask a further question.
- Have you, during the past decades since you
- returned from the war, been in touch
- with any of the prisoners, the former Jewish prisoners at all?
- Have you met any at all?
- Yes, I have.
- I have met several people.
- And I have had them show me the numbered stamp on their arm
- which they had to carry.
- I have met several of them.
- Have they in any way responded to your contact
- by speaking at all about their past in the camps?
- The people I contacted were very young.
- And probably that is the reason they escaped a massacre
- and annihilation.
- But they, of course, remembered it and remembered it well.
- But that is about all.
- They were very young, and they were very fortunate.
- In other words, these former survivors
- that you met in no way spoke about the Holocaust,
- their problems, their thinking at all?
- They merely mentioned that they were survivors
- and showed you the numbers?
- Naturally they knew of the history
- about their friends, relatives, family,
- about their extermination.
- They were well aware of that.
- But they were glad to be in the United States
- and be able to take advantage of a country that gives them
- the freedom to be able to establish their own business
- and do whatever they wish.
- But that is all.
- They were too young to really be, themselves,
- into the atrocities.
- Because we have noticed that it has been a problem,
- that when we do meet some of the survivors,
- there is a hesitancy to speak at all about it,
- as if it was something that they try to put
- in the back of their minds.
- And it has been quite a problem, I
- understand, to get many people to come out
- to speak about their feelings and the terror
- and so on that happened during their stay in camp.
- And I think that probably when someone is young,
- they would still have the same feelings,
- but may not wish to talk about it.
- Was that your impression?
- I would say so.
- They did not want to talk about it at any length.
- This is side two of an interview with David Saltman, who
- was a captain in the active military forces in Germany
- from 1941, I believe, through 1945, and thereafter
- with the army of occupation, functioning as a Prisoner
- of War Hospitals Officer.
- The preceding side has been a side
- in which he has spoken about his impressions of what
- has happened in Germany at the time he was there.
- Now I'd like to ask a couple more questions.
- I understand, Mr. Saltman, that you were involved
- in the Battle of the Bulge.
- Is that true?
- That is correct.
- At the time of the Battle of the Bulge,
- I was with Ninth United States Army up in the northern area.
- And when the Bulge came, it happened
- that I happened to be at a Dutch coal mine taking a bath.
- That is a luxury to be able to get some hot water
- and a civilized place.
- And when I came back and I got on my radio
- as I was heading back to the main forces,
- I received an incident command.
- Silence your radio and come back immediately.
- Out.
- I did that.
- And as I was moving in toward the area,
- I met my battalion coming in the opposite direction.
- I made a U-turn and fell back in line,
- not knowing where I was going or what was happening.
- The mission at that particular time
- was that this sudden excursion of the Germans in this Battle
- of the Bulge meant that they had to draw forces from the north,
- from the south, and wherever they
- could to reinforce First United States
- Army to contain the bulge and drive the Germans back.
- From my standpoint, the Battle of the Bulge in Germany
- violated all military precepts.
- The Germans laid many mines, but the tanks
- were road-bound in these mountainous areas of Belgium
- which I were at.
- The temperature was rather cold, about 20 degrees below zero
- quite often, but we managed to stand it.
- And we painted our tank destroyer units white in order
- to--
- acting as camouflage against the snow.
- The situation was so fluid that while I came back
- and I had a particular radio vehicle,
- I was asked by a division commander
- to please make contact with all of the various elements
- of a tank destroyer battalion to which I was assigned
- so that they could somehow try to draw the line of battle,
- which was totally confused This was in December 1984.
- 1944.
- Sorry, December 1944.
- That was an unbelievable situation,
- but the Germans were very clever.
- Many of them wore British uniforms,
- had been educated in Great Britain
- and were able to talk with British accents,
- so they fooled a lot of people.
- Nevertheless, they took advantage of the fact
- that they were fighting against green troops,
- green American troops.
- And to see tanks go road-bound, up one road and down another,
- and be able to make a penetration the way they did
- is an unbelievable situation in military concepts.
- Nevertheless, we fought.
- We tried to contain them.
- The battle was very heavy.
- We sustained a lot of casualties.
- They did also.
- But their retreat, I'm afraid, was quite orderly.
- I was very much in the thick of it.
- I will not go into the details of the men
- that I had trained during peacetime,
- during this excursion into Belgium.
- But finally we got them back.
- And it was interesting.
- When we straightened out the line,
- Germany had lost its last resistance.
- And our unit went back up north to the sector
- which was opposite Holland.
- And the Germans distributed many leaflets by plane, saying,
- welcome back.
- The 10th Panzer Division is waiting for you.
- And like good Americans, of course, the white camouflage--
- they didn't have a chance to take that off.
- That was a perfect giveaway because it
- was much warmer up north, and they knew who they were.
- And this is how we went.
- I was involved also at that particular time--
- I was transferred to Second Corps.
- And also, by request, I was Liaison Officer
- with Combat Command of the Fifth Armored Division.
- This division, starting from the Ruhr River,
- made the final drive to the Elbe River in Germany.
- It was quite an active unit.
- It spearheaded a drive with the infantry and the artillery
- following behind.
- The Germans could not believe it.
- But when you get into a fluid situation, everything
- you see in the movies and it looks like unreal,
- you have to remember that truth is stranger than fiction.
- I was in this vehicle as liaison officer.
- There was an armored snake going through Europe.
- And we demoralized the Germans beautifully.
- Many of them wanted to surrender to us.
- We couldn't take them.
- They would walk in the opposite direction with their hands
- over their head, and we simply passed them by.
- I could reach my hand out and slap them over the head
- if I wanted to.
- It was that close.
- We still couldn't take prisoners.
- Our mission was to continue.
- We got there fast enough.
- In one particular airfield, we shot down six planes.
- A little unusual-- the planes coming in to land
- thought they were still landing in German territory,
- but the American Army had moved so fast, that they couldn't
- believe it was otherwise.
- This armored snake that I talked about
- was moving along for 24 straight hours--
- stopping, starting, advance elements
- shooting their way through--
- and still moving on.
- The infantry, particularly, following 20 to 30 miles
- behind the armored spearhead, were really mad at us
- because they had a tough job cleaning up and mopping up all
- of these prisoners that we didn't have time to take,
- and couldn't take because we didn't
- have the forces to take them.
- We were too busy on our mission.
- So when we got to the Elbe River and waited
- for the infantry and the artillery to reach us,
- this is the way it had to be.
- And I believe I mentioned before, that
- was the point at which we waited for the Russians
- to catch up to their sector.
- Mr. Saltman, I believe that you were in contact
- with some organization in Brooklyn that
- asked for information and oral history
- on anybody who was working, who had been in the Army
- near the Dachau or other concentration camps.
- And I believe that you were in contact with them
- and gave them some information.
- Could you relate the information again, please?
- In Brooklyn, there is an organization
- known as the Center for Holocaust Studies.
- They are on Avenue J. And I did tape some information.
- They asked me questions.
- And I gave them all of the photographs,
- the official photographs from the United States Army Signal
- Corps that I had, many of which they already had in the books
- that they had published.
- This organization will cooperate with anyone.
- However, of all of the people who have talked to them
- or given them information, they will not
- release information with anyone unless they
- get their formal permission.
- They have had so many requests.
- They have asked people like me if I
- would consent to giving my name if anyone asked for it.
- And I said, yes, no previous clearance is required.
- They have also documented many people
- throughout the world who were in the Holocaust.
- And there was one case where I wanted
- to reach someone in Europe.
- And they had someone's name in Basel.
- That is Basel, Switzerland.
- But they insisted that if anybody wants to reach them,
- they'd better write to the Center for Holocaust Studies
- first.
- They do not make names public unless a full request is made
- and the other person will release that information.
- Thank you very, very much, Mr. Saltman, for the information
- that you have related on the tape.
- We will ask you for permission to use this tape.
- And so we'll bring you a form which
- indicates that the information contained
- can be made available to the public
- through the AIC Oral History Archive Center,
- and no access to this information
- is permitted except as authorized by officials
- of the Oral History Center or by the persons designated by them.
- Your signature on the form will indicate your acceptance
- of the conditions of this agreement
- and my authorization to use the information which
- I have furnished for the aforementioned purposes.
- Thank you again, Mr. Saltman.
- This is George Klein, the interviewer,
- residing at 201 Allen Park Road, completing this interview
- at five minutes to 10:00 on Sunday, April
- the 20th, 1986, for submission to the Oral History
- Project, which will check and note on exactly
- how this cassette is operating.
- Thank you.
- This is a further comment made by Mr. Saltman.
- Mr. Saltman?
- Perhaps you're interested in knowing
- what happens to people who are missing in action.
- I have a neighbor who lost a brother during World War
- II in the fighting.
- And all that he knew was that he was missing in action--
- never knew how, where, or why--
- when they were crossing, they believe, the Ruhr River
- or someplace in Western Germany.
- I took the army serial number of this person
- and said I would see what I can do.
- So in 1984, when I was visiting Europe,
- I stopped in at a US Army military cemetery
- in Luxembourg, which, incidentally,
- is the area in which General George Patton is buried.
- And I asked if they could tell me where
- Leonard Sisselman was buried.
- They said, just a moment.
- They went to a book and looked it up.
- They found his name.
- I checked the Army serial number to make
- sure there were no two people with the same name.
- And they said, he was not buried anywhere.
- He was missing in action.
- I said, how do you know it?
- And they said, because there is no indication
- of a place of burial.
- However, he is obviously on the wall
- of names in the American cemetery at Lorraine, France.
- I therefore decided-- on my move beyond Luxembourg,
- I went and headed for the American cemetery in Lorraine.
- When I got there, I asked at the cemetery
- where I could find this person's name,
- as I understood that he was missing in action.
- I was told where to go.
- And as I moved along this gigantic wall of names,
- I did find the name of Leonard Sisselman, Private Leonard
- Sisselman, and also the unit to which he was assigned.
- And I photographed that particular action.
- His brother had not known what had happened.
- And after some 40 years, he was very anxious.
- He went over later in the year to the same area
- to confirm what I saw.
- And he also took photographs of the same cemetery.
- Just in passing, I might mention that I also
- had the privilege of visiting Hitler's retreat in 1945
- at Berchtesgaden.
- It was up on top of a mountain.
- They called it the Eagle's Nest.
- And as we took an elevator up, it
- was a very spartan-like setting, by no means
- luxurious, straight chairs and very simplistic, very
- much typical of the dictator himself.
- However, this was one of his homes at Berchtesgaden.
- This is not the place where he was found dead.
- He was found dead--
- or not found dead, but he was known
- to have died at a bunker in Berlin.
Overview
- Interviewee
- David Saltman
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
1 sound cassette (60 min.).
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives.
- Personal Name
- Saltman, David--Interviews.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received the tapes of the interview from David Saltman on August 6, 1993
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:16:45
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn510124
Additional Resources
Download & Licensing
- Request Copy
- See Rights and Restrictions
- Terms of Use
- This record is digitized but cannot be downloaded online.
In-Person Research
- Available for Research
- Plan a Research Visit