Oral history interview with Edna Ipson
Transcript
- I always carry with me this.
- Time I changed my purse.
- Ready?
- [LAUGHS]
- She moved on me.
- It's fine.
- Let's go.
- OK?
- And some of the questions I'm going to ask you
- are going to be very easy.
- My first question is, what is your name?
- And when were you born?
- 1913.
- On?
- December the 20th.
- And what is your name?
- My name?
- Edna, Edna Ipson.
- My maiden name was [? Butrimoitch. ?]
- It means Edna B. Ipson.
- OK.
- Where were you born?
- In Trakai, near to Vilna.
- You got there in the book what we found there.
- And can you tell me the names of your father and mother
- and sisters and brothers and tell me how long
- you had lived in Trakai?
- After the war, I remember that my mother
- moved from [? Ladvilrova ?] to Kaunas.
- I was there a little girl at that time when she moved.
- That was I think in 1927--
- no, in 1925.
- So you lived in Trakai?
- We lived in Kovne--
- Kaunas.
- And before Kaunas you lived in?
- Before Kaunas you lived in?
- I told you, [? Ladvilrova. ?]
- [? Ladvilrova. ?]
- Right.
- That is about 17 kilometer from Vilna.
- How long had your family lived in [? Ladvilrova? ?]
- Well, like I said, until 1923.
- And from then, we moved to Kovne, to Kaunas.
- The reason why because my uncle and my grandmother
- was living there.
- They didn't leave in Kovne.
- But they had a very big farm.
- And that's what I remember that we were there
- until we moved to Kovne.
- And my mother has to move the children.
- And we were five children.
- So that's the way we came to Kovne from [? Ladvilrova. ?]
- And that was after the war.
- And it was in 19--
- I couldn't remember exactly the year, 1923 or 1924.
- So after World War I, you went--
- We had there a house in [? Ladvilrova. ?] And they
- gave up and we moved there closer to the grandmother,
- to my mother's mother.
- OK, we're going to stop just for one moment.
- I'm sorry.
- This is just--
- And let me ask a question while we're stopping.
- You went from [? Ladvilrova ?] to your uncle's farm
- and from the farm to Kovno?
- OK, so you said that you moved from Ladvilrova
- to the farm and--
- Right.
- Then from the farm--
- Now, let me explain to you something else, why we moved
- to [? Ladvilrova, ?] why we moved from [? Ladvilrova, ?]
- because my father, we had a slaughterhouse and a meat
- market, you know.
- And when my father died, we were very little children, little
- bitty ones.
- Then my mother remarried for a cousin in the family
- with the same name.
- His name was [? Chanae. ?] And that the reason
- that we moved out.
- And then my uncle--
- his name is Itzhak, and he lives right now in Rehovot.
- And he had a very big farm from dairy that they used to make.
- And they decided that we should move to Kovne, instead
- to be there.
- And that the way we came to Kovne.
- So by being a couple of years with the grandmother
- and the children, then my mother found there a house
- with my stepfather.
- And then they took all the children
- and brought them to Kovne.
- And by being in Kovne, my aunt--
- Bessie was her name, Bessie Brown.
- She asked my mother with what she can help her.
- And my mother told her that the only thing if she can help
- is to take about two children, if she can, to raise them.
- So my older brother, his name was Al Barrett.
- He changed.
- And then my sister, her name is Sadie.
- And they came--
- I don't remember the year.
- But I think they left in 1927.
- I remember that my brother wasn't even bar mitzvah,
- maybe he was.
- And they came to America.
- And my Aunt Bessie, she raised them.
- I understand-- Aunt Bessie is the one who
- had come to the United States.
- Yeah.
- And she came as a single girl.
- And she was here--
- she got married here for Mr. A. Brown.
- So that leaves your mother with how many children in Kovno?
- In Kovne?
- Myself and a sister and a brother--
- and two brothers.
- And can you tell me your mother's name and your sister--
- Esther Chai, Esther.
- And your brother and sister?
- And my brother, Feivel, Minna, and Chaim, and myself.
- It was four of us.
- Edna, when you were growing up, did they call you Edna?
- Yeah, they used to call me Ettal.
- And then when I came here, I changed my name to Edna.
- What language did you speak?
- Yiddish, Lithuanian, Russian, and Polish.
- Polish, I learned, you know, there
- where we were my grandmother, [? Basha, ?] has a farm.
- So there was a schoolteacher.
- She used to teach me Polish.
- And then when they came--
- when I grow up, you know, I used to go to shul.
- And we used to learn there Yiddish.
- I finished the Yiddish school.
- What was the name of the school you went to?
- In--
- What?
- Kaunas?
- No, it's not [NON-ENGLISH].
- I forget.
- Well, it doesn't matter.
- If you remember, you can tell us.
- It's not important.
- Would you like to tell me something
- about your Jewish life as you were growing up?
- It was a wonderful life.
- It was a life of happiness.
- Everything was so free.
- Everything was so wonderful.
- You didn't have the antisemitism until 1935,
- the way you had before.
- I got married when I was--
- 1932.
- I met my husband in 1928 when he finished high school.
- To describe the life the way it was, it never can be again.
- I had my people.
- I had my parents.
- I had my sister.
- Everything was so wonderful, bright, beautiful.
- Get up in the morning with a smile and sing and dance.
- And we used to go out.
- We used to get together with the school and people, you know.
- And we used to go in different places, to take us,
- like in Memel, when we were in school--
- Klaipeda, the very-- you know.
- And the life was very sweet.
- It was very, very wonderful.
- To describe culture, the newspapers, the books,
- the autos, it--
- you had for everything time.
- Can you tell me something about your Jewish life
- or the synagogue?
- Well, I tell you, the Jewish life,
- it's unbelievable to describe.
- When it used to come Friday night,
- the people used to go in shul, in Temple.
- And Friday night, you had a rich section.
- You had medium.
- You people had poor people.
- The poor people mostly was in Slobodka.
- There were the ghetto was.
- And when it used to come about 5 o'clock or--
- that was in the winter time.
- In the summer time, you know, it was
- around 6 o'clock, the way somebody used to come and knock
- in the doors from the stores.
- It's time to go [NON-ENGLISH].
- It's time to go to light the candles, close the store.
- And everybody was rushing.
- They used to close the store in time.
- And everybody was rushing to go home.
- You used to come home.
- You used to see every little place.
- Even the poor people, they didn't
- have such a wonderful apartments, the living.
- But always it was clean.
- They used to take sand, and put it up, you know.
- And they light the candles, used to light.
- And no matter how poor or rich, in each window
- the candles was lighting.
- The fish was smelling.
- Everybody used to prepare the dinners for Shabbos, for Friday
- night.
- And when the father used to come at home,
- he used to live like a king.
- Everybody used to have such a respect for father.
- And the challah, you know, what you
- used to put it up on the table.
- And the way he used to make the brachas,
- the blessing over the challah.
- And the children around the table, and everybody
- was so happy.
- It was such a beautiful life.
- That that's really in my life I miss the Friday night.
- Saturdays, they used to go to shul again, the temple.
- And, you know, it was very religious.
- They used to make Friday night a cholent.
- You know what a--
- do you?
- And then when Father used-- all of them,
- it not only myself, but the whole community there
- used to run to get the cholent for Shabbos.
- And what you think was there?
- All the goodies when you are young you could eat, potatoes
- and meat and kishkes you know.
- And then Father used to come from Temple, I tell you.
- All the children were just making place
- that Daddy's coming.
- And some of them, of the children--
- I used to go myself--
- to pick up the cholent from the bakery.
- And Daddy used to make the prayers, you know,
- over wine or something.
- And we were eating.
- And everybody was quiet.
- When we were eating.
- Nobody could talk because it has to be quiet.
- After you finish the dinner, it started up again.
- We start reading the newspaper.
- Or we start reading a book.
- And everybody was so happy all the children.
- It was like one in the family.
- We respect very highly our parents.
- We respect the other people too.
- But at home, that was just--
- it's hard to describe the feeling what we had at home.
- And when it used to come a holiday,
- like Pesach, who can describe the beauty, the sweet?
- The way you used to ask the fir kashes, you know.
- And everybody was so happy.
- And the next day, you used to take some nuts, you know.
- And the weather was beautiful, shiny.
- And everybody used to come with the nuts.
- And we used to play nuts, walnuts.
- Some of them were losing.
- Some of them were winning.
- It was-- I tell you, it was such a life
- that I don't think so that that life will come back again
- like it was there in Lithuania.
- It sounds to me like you were in a whole Jewish neighborhood.
- Yeah, we were in a Jewish neighborhood.
- We were living in Slobodka, not in Kovne, where the ghetto was.
- And a life like that, they respect--
- the most respect for the people at home for the parents.
- You cannot see anymore that.
- You cannot.
- And the goodness and the smile, it
- is a time that it will never come back again.
- Do you remember--
- Never.
- Because I remember everybody--
- Saturday or Friday night, everybody
- used to put on some new clothes, change the clothes,
- and fix yourself up, like when daddy used to come from Temple.
- And mother used to look so beautiful in the clothes,
- and the children, whatever you had, used to change.
- And the candles on the table, and the challah
- and the fish, and it was smelling so good
- when you used to walk in, that you could see really
- the Jewish life.
- Here you don't see anymore.
- And when you walk out after dinner,
- you know, and you walk in the street, you take a walk.
- And you see in each window, you see the candles light.
- That feeling will never be again.
- And when you got married to Israel--
- Yeah.
- Did you have a few years living like that?
- Yeah, sure.
- Where did you live when you got married?
- Did you live--
- I live in the same thing, in Slobodka.
- Did you have an apartment?
- With his parents, sure.
- I had an apartment.
- And Izzy at that time was studying a little.
- And that is the picture I'll show you
- where the motorcycles was.
- That was in the house.
- And then I had--
- Jay was born.
- What year?
- Jay was born in 1935.
- And then in 1939, no, in 1940, I had a little girl.
- I lost the little girl because when the war start,
- we were running.
- We were running to--
- we were running.
- We thought we'll go to Russia, you know.
- It not only ourselves, but it was
- whole lot people do with us.
- And we came to Jonava.
- That was a little town.
- When we came to Jonava, it's no more.
- We couldn't go because the German soldiers already
- were there.
- And we couldn't go further.
- So we have to go back.
- On the way back, we didn't have any food.
- I got in by a farmer out there.
- And she gave a little milk for the child.
- And I think she got didn't take, you know.
- She took sick.
- To come home, it's--
- if I have to tell you everything from the beginning the way
- it was, it will take you maybe 4, 5 hours or more than that.
- But fortunately, we were lucky.
- We were lucky when we were going back home.
- And we got in in the right place where the Lithuanian people
- didn't grab the people and send them to the Ninth Fort.
- There was a-- how you say?
- The Czarist?
- Huh?
- The Czarist fort.
- It was there made when the Russians had the war.
- And there was be -- for soldiers.
- And they were taking all the Jewish people
- with the children, with everybody.
- And they send over there.
- Fortunately, we got at home--
- we started at 5 o'clock.
- And 5 o'clock nobody was on the way.
- And that's the way we survived to come home.
- And they couldn't catch us.
- Did your baby come--
- Then the baby took sick.
- And I had some doctors coming.
- It's already started up the ghetto.
- And we couldn't, we couldn't survive,
- she couldn't survive because I didn't have the right medicine.
- If maybe it wouldn't be the war, maybe she would be alive.
- Let's go back--
- When we came home, our house was on Vilniaus gatve.
- I didn't recognize my father.
- He was dark, like you were right now.
- And when we came back, that's happen only
- for days when we were on the road, he was white like paper.
- What did happen at that time?
- All on the street, Vilniaus gatve and Paneriu gatve,
- they slaughtered out 400 people.
- Everybody they killed, no matter children, grown.
- And they came to our house too.
- And fortunately, my father was lucky because he said,
- let's close up everything, the house,
- and let's get up on the attic.
- So they knocked in the door.
- Nobody answered.
- And that the way they survived.
- They took the rabbi.
- He was on-- not Paneriu but [PLACE NAME]
- And they took and cut him off the head and took the head
- and put it up on the table.
- Did you see that?
- It is true.
- I know--
- When we came back, we had seen.
- We had seen the places where they were killed the people.
- On one wall was written there with his blood, the man's
- blood.
- He took with his finger.
- And he wrote up on the wall, please take Nekoma, in Yiddish.
- You know what Nekoma?
- Please-- wait a moment.
- Let me-- that we should pay them back, that we should fight.
- Revenge?
- Huh?
- Revenge?
- It's probably like that.
- I don't know.
- I'm now such a mist.
- And I have seen myself with my own eye.
- There was a little boy.
- His mother and father had been killed on [PLACE NAME]
- And the little boy run in under the bed.
- And he survived.
- And he came out.
- And he told everybody what had happened.
- And that it happened in two weeks,
- there was slaughter out the people.
- And that is, God help me, that is the truth
- what I am telling you.
- Its people whom I know, people whom you could see,
- people who used to talk to them because it was one street.
- And I knew the people.
- And I have seen myself with my own eye.
- Would you believe it?
- No.
- So when you came back--
- That's when I came-- we came back
- that was two days before, the two days before we came back.
- And then they used to go there to see
- the truth That was really.
- When you came back you had Izzy and you had your--
- Jay.
- Jay was five.
- How old was Jay?
- Huh?
- How old was Jay?
- How old?
- Jay was about six, seven years.
- So what did you do next?
- After that, we have to go in the concentration-- in the ghetto.
- We have to leave everything that we had.
- We weren't too far from my mother.
- It was about a block away, there where we used to live.
- The ghetto started up from my mother's house,
- from my parents' house.
- There started up the ghetto.
- So your apartment was outside the ghetto but your mother--
- That's right.
- But my mother's was in the ghetto.
- Do you remember the address?
- Do you remember the street number and the street name?
- Oh, yeah, Vilniaus gatve 1.
- Vilniaus gatve, Vilniaus is the street, number 1.
- So you went to live with your mother.
- And then that is the corner house, Vilniaus
- and [? Vijaya. ?] The house is a corner.
- So it was Vilniaus gatve and [? Vijaya ?] gatve.
- And we had a two-story house.
- And at my mother's house, when we moved in,
- it moved in my husband's sister, brother-in-law, his mother
- and father.
- So--
- And we were there all of us.
- And we had about three rooms.
- That's all, and one kitchen.
- And everybody has to cook.
- And I used to go to work every day.
- What was your job?
- My job?
- Should I tell you?
- Will you believe it?
- I used to dig cables.
- You know the cables what they used to put in?
- That up to here.
- And to take out the earth.
- And you have to make a special section.
- I don't know how much, half a meter
- or how much it was, that you have to finish.
- In case, if not, you are in trouble.
- Then I used to go to the brigade to shovel coal.
- And then I used to go to the airport to put up cement.
- Then I used to go in other places because I used to dig,
- you know, sand to make cement.
- But they have to build bridges.
- You know a bridge?
- I used to work over there.
- And all of a sudden, I stopped.
- And we all stopped talking.
- And I said, everybody said before,
- I go die I like to have a [NON-ENGLISH],, before I go die,
- I like to have a challah, or food.
- We didn't care about anything, but just a little food to have.
- And you wouldn't believe it if I'll tell you
- that the German guard came in with his rifle
- and hit me here over my head.
- And I had six stitches.
- And I was bleeding.
- And, you know, I have to go in ghetto.
- It was not transportation, but you have to walk.
- It was about five miles from the place
- from the ghetto, concentration camp, where we were.
- I used to run away from the place wherever I could
- and take off, you know, David star.
- And I had long hair.
- And I looked like a shiksa.
- And I knew Lithuanian fluently.
- And I used to run away to get a couple slices bread for Jay,
- that he should have something, or a few potatoes.
- And when I came and I had half a loaf of bread,
- and I put it in my raincoat, in my pocket,
- and would you believe it, that when I came,
- I didn't know where to go and what to do.
- I was afraid they will take away my bread for Jay
- we didn't have.
- And the guard came in.
- And he stopped looking at me.
- I'm going from one brigade to the other.
- And he said, come here.
- I didn't have no choice.
- What have you got?
- I said, nothing, just the bread.
- He took his hand.
- He took out the bread.
- And he beat me up.
- That it didn't hurt me.
- I was bleeding.
- For months, you could see here on my back.
- It didn't hurt me that he beat me up.
- But it hurts me but I couldn't have the bread for Jay.
- It's more and more to talk about it.
- I used to go to work.
- My heart would miss my child, if I go find him or not.
- It is the greatest pain as a mother is not
- being able to feed your child.
- But I was going on.
- I had still the family.
- I had my mother, and my father, my brothers, my sister.
- It's-- in 1941 was the selection.
- We had two ghettos with the bridge over.
- And that was Paneriu gatve.
- And the first thing what it happened
- that they took the little ghetto, the way
- it was the bridge, and they give only three hours for the people
- to get out.
- Some people could.
- Some people couldn't.
- My sister-in-law was there in the little ghetto.
- Excuse me.
- And when I find out what had happened,
- and she had a little boy.
- His name was Jakob.
- He was about two years old.
- I was running there to help her to get out.
- And soon we got out, they cut it off.
- You couldn't go out anymore.
- So the people who was over there, everybody was gone.
- Did they know--
- Nobody survived.
- When they were told to get out, did they know what that meant?
- No, we couldn't believe.
- People couldn't believe.
- But some Christians used to come and tell
- what is going on there on the Ninth Fort,
- on the Seventh Fort, the way they used
- to prepare graves, big one.
- But who was lucky?
- Was the life, the way you pray.
- Rosh Hashanah.
- Who should be alive?
- Who should be dead?
- The same thing is happened here.
- Then when that was finished, they took--
- that was before Rosh Hashanah.
- They took to the airport 2,500 people.
- So my husband, my father and my brother,
- Chaim, was there [INAUDIBLE].
- And about 3 o'clock, between 3:00 or 4 o'clock,
- they surround our corner.
- And they cut it off a quarter of the ghetto.
- And people were living there like animals.
- You give them more freedom than the people, you know, in that.
- And they walked in there in our house.
- And they said, get out.
- You have to go out.
- I said, where?
- They said, everybody to look through the house.
- And everybody should get out.
- And everybody should stay in one line, four people in a line,
- four people in a line.
- I said, wait a moment, I want to take for my son
- a slice of bread.
- He said, don't worry.
- You wouldn't need anymore.
- You go get what there plenty.
- And I have seen the line, people already lined up.
- I said, it's trouble.
- I know they are going to have a selection.
- At that time, I had my mother, my sister, my youngest brother,
- Feivel.
- I had my grandmother.
- And I have young Jakob, Jay, with me.
- The only thing that I could say is to keep my chin high.
- And I used to pray, [NON-ENGLISH]..
- Please, God, hear my voice.
- Save all whole lives.
- I kept my little boy for the hand--
- for his hand, that he shouldn't get lost.
- He went to his grandmother.
- And he said, [NON-ENGLISH].
- You know what [NON-ENGLISH] mean?
- My little heart heard, tells me, that he wouldn't kill us.
- Well, the show must go on.
- You have to go.
- You cannot disappear.
- We came in a big field.
- And I have seen in front of me doctors,
- was just talking to them yesterday, lawyers,
- bookkeepers, all intelligent people.
- And that was about five lines before me.
- And I have seen doctor, lawyers, bookkeepers, intelligent people
- left.
- And I say to myself--
- no, I wouldn't say that my husband is a lawyer.
- And I wouldn't say that I used to help him in the office.
- But I told him, he came in to me, and he said,
- what's happened here?
- How many people have you got here?
- And I told him how many people we are.
- And I said, my husband and my father and my brother,
- they went to the airport, by the Flugzeug, by the airplanes.
- They are mechanics.
- I said, they are working over there.
- So he said, [GERMAN].
- To the right, to the right.
- And then I could save two more people, save--
- we will save.
- And they came to his grandmother.
- And she fainted.
- And he said, grandma, I told you, they wouldn't kill us.
- And that the way we survived.
- So when my father--
- I have to ask you a question.
- Did you know if they said to the left, it would mean you die?
- The left was dead.
- But you knew that when they said it?
- I had the feeling that Rechts is all right.
- And you know why?
- Because I have seen people what they said, I am a tailor,
- I'm a shoemaker, I'm so-- so they gave the right side.
- And then I told him and he said, what is my Beruf.
- I told him I am a dressmaker.
- That the way we survived.
- And then later, how long was it before you found out
- that the people who went to the left really did die?
- The what?
- When did you find out that the people who went to the left
- were killed?
- Oh, the same night.
- They took him there in the little ghetto what it was.
- And the next day, they took him there to the Seventh Fort,
- and they killed them.
- It was I think about 4,000 people or 5,000 people.
- I don't know.
- I couldn't remember exactly.
- How would you know these things?
- I mean, you didn't have newspapers.
- How would how would your information?
- Oh, how did you know?
- Bad news comes, and good news comes.
- And before it used to be the selection,
- some people used to come from the Christian people
- and they used to come and tell us.
- And then we knew already.
- We knew because they used to make several times to go out
- and to see how the public will work.
- Or they'll be going exactly the way it is, or say you fight.
- We couldn't fight.
- We didn't have any ammunition.
- How could we fight?
- And then was the big selection when they took out
- about 10,000 people.
- And we were at that time too.
- So fortunately, I think that we had a little luck.
- Let me go back to two things you said
- that I have questions about.
- First, when you told about your jobs,
- how did you get those jobs?
- From Arbeitsamt.
- We had the Arbeitsamt, people who are giving out
- the work in what brigade to go.
- Or this one or this one or this one or this one.
- You have to have vitamin P. P means protekcja.
- And if you didn't have, you were lost.
- So who was your protekcja.
- Well, I didn't have all the time.
- I didn't have--
- I had just a few times.
- But I could mingle around when you
- used to go out 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock in the morning.
- 7 o'clock, they used to take you out.
- So it's happened that I had for a couple of months
- I had a very good brigade.
- I was working there by--
- I forgot.
- [PERSONAL NAME] was his name.
- It was not too far from the airport.
- And there was a head--
- I think-- the Waffenmeister, he used to have the--
- I couldn't remember-- weapons, weapons.
- So we were working there.
- There was a good place.
- You used to run away.
- I could run away and get something.
- I used to take a dress or underwear or something
- and get something to eat, to get some potatoes.
- The main thing was potatoes and bread.
- That was the main that you could have.
- And how would you get it?
- Would you walk into a store?
- I used to run away from my work.
- But tell me an example of one time when you went
- and how you got the bread or the potato.
- That's what I said.
- I used to go into the farmers.
- I used to take off my David star.
- And I looked like a Christian.
- I didn't look like a Jewish woman.
- So I wasn't too afraid to go.
- And over there was a German that he didn't care,
- as long as come back to work.
- So they let us out for an hour.
- And at that time, you see, I could talk to the girl
- with whom I was talking what she needs.
- If I didn't have, I could go to the people
- in ghetto who wants to get something.
- So I used to take some clothes.
- And the girls used to come in already what we needed.
- And I didn't have to run.
- But that was only for a couple of months.
- And tell me one more time, did you
- go to like a market where there were farmers?
- Or did you go to stores?
- No, no, not to the store.
- It was at home, the farmer's house where you know--
- the farmer's house where it wasn't
- occupied from the Germans.
- That's what it was.
- And it sounds like you helped more people
- than just your family.
- Do I have-- I had--
- When you traded things, and you got food
- and you traded clothing and other things, you helped--
- I used to give--
- I used to give other people.
- I used to give other people.
- And then when it was left over, I used to take for myself.
- I asked them, like you go in any store
- right now, how much is it?
- So much and so much.
- All right.
- I used to give them to the farmer.
- And I used to tell them, look, I have
- to have so much and so much.
- And I used to give to the people what they asked me.
- And what it was left over, I used to have for myself.
- But then you have to watch that the guard at the ghetto
- should be a good one.
- And there was Jewish police too, not only German.
- And, well, like I said, everywhere you
- go you have to have the vitamin P, protect.
- So I wasn't afraid for nothing.
- I used to go and--
- who can explain the pain what you went through?
- No.
- Nobody can.
- And nobody will believe that you can go through so much.
- Here is my foot from frozen.
- I didn't have the shoes.
- Frozen up.
- Survive.
- It's so many things that it is impossible to tell you.
- It is just I'm skipping from one place to the other.
- It's--
- We used to take pails, my mother, shall
- she rest in peace.
- If we could get pails, even by where
- we used to go out and run.
- As I said, there they got the pails for the pigs.
- I said, that's all right.
- Give me.
- And we'll take.
- And the pills wasn't-- it was still heavy.
- You used to bring it home.
- My mother, shall she rest in peace,
- she used to wash up very good, clean.
- And she used to make cookies.
- You had some flour.
- It's not even flour.
- It was like not corn.
- I don't know what it was.
- And she used to mix it up and to bake and make the cookies.
- And when people-- bankers used to come in to see us,
- to see my father--
- my husband's father.
- And they didn't have nothing.
- So my mother used to take out a few of them
- and give it to them.
- He said, no, I cannot take from you.
- You got a little child here.
- She said, please stay.
- But bankers, professors, it is just
- unbelievable what had happened to the people there in ghetto.
- Tell me about what happened after the small selection.
- After that selection, when my father came, he said,
- if we wouldn't find nobody from the family,
- He said, I go kill myself.
- There is no use to live any longer.
- And Izzy, all of them agree, the same thing.
- But when they came home early in the morning and they found us,
- I tell you something.
- It's hard to describe the feeling
- when you found each other.
- And then was a big selection too.
- It was-- well, I told you already.
- I didn't know.
- In 1943, that was the worst time in my life.
- As long I had my people, I could go on and live.
- [SOBBING] But in 1943, 28th of October,
- they ran into our house.
- And they took away the whole family.
- They have to have about 2,000 people for Estland, Estonia.
- And that was that you have to have right away.
- So the people didn't go.
- Everybody was hiding.
- And I didn't know.
- I didn't know that they go take my family
- and what they were looking for a big family.
- And that to go from house to house and take
- one person or two.
- So they were taking big families.
- So they took my mother and father and my two brothers
- and my sister.
- And since then, I didn't see them.
- My father and brother, both brothers
- got killed in Stutthof.
- And my mother with my sister got killed in Estonia.
- And you said, life.
- [SOBS]
- And where were you when this happened?
- Huh?
- Did you see them get taken away?
- I had seen.
- I couldn't do nothing.
- I didn't know that they will come in.
- If not, I would hide somebody.
- In cellar or somewhere I would cover up,
- or somewhere on the attic.
- But I didn't know.
- That was all of a sudden, it happened.
- There then used to come to the children's.
- So when I lost them, I didn't know yet.
- I said to myself, it's coming up a selection, the children.
- They were taking out from [NON-ENGLISH]..
- That's what we used to hear, the news,
- that they took already the children away.
- They used to kill them, take the blood out and send
- for the soldiers there where they were fighting, you know.
- I said to Izzy, and I said, Izzy, what we should do?
- Maybe I should give Jay-- maybe we had some farmers there,
- what they used to--
- what we knew they are fine people.
- And then Izzy said, no.
- If Jay will go, we'll go with him.
- When my husband was working on the airport,
- there was people who used to come from the little villages.
- And my husband find out about my uncle.
- Or he knew him.
- Or he said, Itzka, oh, yeah, that's my neighbor.
- You know him.
- We are hiding him.
- He never been in ghetto.
- But he was in 87 places.
- And he said, I'll give him-- so my husband wrote him
- a little note.
- He find out and he gave--
- and he said, I'll give it to Itzka.
- That's the way in Lithuanian they used to call Itzka.
- And after that, I had the connection with my uncle.
- The same farmer what he used to be across, I knew him.
- He got in contact with me.
- And I used to send him some clothes
- for the farmer what he needs.
- And I said, please try to help him out.
- Give him what he needs.
- And so really they used to help him out.
- They used to-- when at night, he used to go at night
- and go to the farmers.
- And the farmers used to give him bread and milk
- and whatever they used to have.
- So he used to have for a week or for three days or four days.
- And then at night, he used to go again.
- And then I said, after when I lost everybody--
- that was in October, the 28th, 1943--
- I said, wait a moment, maybe I'll
- get in contact with my uncle.
- I used to go there--
- I forgot the place where they used to shovel coal, used
- to come in.
- And we used to shovel the coal, 4 or 5 women sometimes.
- And you have to finish, you know, what you call it,
- a wagon.
- I used to run away.
- Finish my job, and I used to run away.
- And he used to bring me butter, one time cheese, and bread.
- And I used to bring him something.
- So the last time when I was there,
- I wrote a letter to my uncle.
- And I told him what had happened.
- And I said I would like to save my Jay, if it's possible,
- the three of us.
- Then the farmer came in.
- And I was there on the job, shovel the coal,
- and ran over to him.
- And he said, be ready for that and that day.
- I'll be here, and I'll pick you up.
- And I'll take you to him.
- His name was [? Martynas. ?]
- And he came with his--
- [INAUDIBLE] my husband had a cousin.
- And he helped us.
- He cut the wires from the ghetto.
- That was 4 o'clock in the morning.
- And we used to watch on which side the guard is going.
- So if he is already far away, then we took Jay.
- And we told him he should be quiet and go across the street
- and wait over there.
- He was waiting for an hour until we could go out.
- He didn't cry.
- He didn't say anything because we told him
- what will happen if he'll cry or ask.
- And then came the moment we got out.
- And the farmer came in.
- And we put in Jay in that wagon where he was.
- And on top of that, we put up some straw.
- So Jay was hiding under the straw.
- And myself, my husband, and [? Martynas, ?] and myself, we
- were sitting in front.
- I took his coat.
- And I gave it to my husband.
- And my husband's coat, I gave it to the farmer.
- And I had a little coat, but only the farmers are wearing,
- velvet, black velvet, and a scarf.
- And we drove up about 25 miles.
- That was Petrasiunai.
- And they stopped us.
- And I said, here we are in trouble.
- And you know what they ask us?
- If we have [NON-ENGLISH],, if we do have some eggs to sell it.
- I said, no, we don't have nothing.
- We are going home.
- The day was raining, pouring.
- It was terrible.
- And here we see that the military, the German--
- Should we take a-- should we--
- Take a break.
- I need to change tapes.
- We have to put on a new tape.
- So we'll rest and start again.
- You were telling us about the wagon ride,
- and you got stopped and asked for eggs.
- What did they say?
- You were telling us how you were riding in the farmer's wagon.
- Yeah.
- And you got stopped.
- Oh.
- Yeah, and then they have seen the way the soldiers have come,
- the German soldiers was going with the trucks with everything
- in the direction to Kaunas.
- And I said to myself, here is the end.
- And fortunately, we were lucky.
- They didn't stop us.
- And we went through.
- And we came to the farmer's house.
- The farmer didn't took us right away to his place.
- But he took us to his brother-in-law.
- He wasn't too far from there.
- And Jay, by laying all the time, and all of a sudden
- it was quiet.
- And we didn't say anything.
- Jay spoke up, daddy, daddy.
- And we couldn't say anything.
- We were afraid.
- So the man said, I hear a voice.
- I hear somebody talking.
- Oh, he said, go on.
- You are crazy.
- I am talking to you.
- Maybe I was whispering, and you didn't hear me.
- And everything went smooth.
- Then we went to the farmer, to his house.
- We didn't have no place where to sleep.
- We was sleeping there.
- The farmer's house, they used to have a oven.
- And on the oven, they used to have children sleeping there.
- You know, I don't know, it's hard to describe the farmer's
- life.
- So then the next day, he went--
- that man knew where my uncle was hiding.
- And he went to him.
- And he came to see us.
- And he told us to be very careful.
- And we were on the attic there by the farmer, winter, cold,
- no clothes.
- It was terrible.
- Then I took sick because the rain.
- And by being over there, seven days somebody start
- telling the lawyer from Kovne came here,
- and he is hiding here, the Jew.
- [? Martynas ?] got scared.
- And he told him, we have to run.
- We have to go.
- I'm afraid that the Gestapo or somebody could come and see
- you and kill you.
- I said, maybe we can go in there where the chickens are,
- where they keep the chickens.
- He said, no, we have to go.
- So he took us again to his sister-in-law.
- We were over there for five days or six, no more.
- And then they threw us out, plain kicked us out.
- It was winter.
- And where to go?
- I didn't know.
- But I knew one thing that I could go,
- and I couldn't reach my uncle.
- And that [? Martynas ?] was a very smart farmer.
- My husband used to help them with the papers.
- You know when they had some papers to do, different things,
- and they didn't have the money, so my husband used
- to help them.
- It is again a long story to tell about that.
- And it was winter, snow, cold.
- And he said, let's go.
- Let's run.
- And we came in a place.
- And he said, please, sit down.
- Lay down.
- He said, like that.
- And it go look like a stone, a big stone.
- And he could hear the way police was running, you know.
- And after the storm went over, then he said, get up,
- and let's go.
- I came to that farmer in [PLACE NAME] That farmer
- knew very well my mother.
- And Mrs. [? Barshefsky, ?] she was sick.
- And she was in Kovne in a hospital.
- And my mother used to cook for her and take her some food
- and see her every day.
- So I had a place where to go in.
- I left that farmer with Izzy, my husband, and Jay.
- And I went by myself.
- The dogs start barking.
- I thought that they go tearing apart
- the whole farm over there.
- I knocked in in the door.
- And the men have seen me and closed the door again.
- He got scared.
- I said to him, don't get scared.
- Let me go into your place.
- He said, who are you?
- And I told him who I am.
- I said, how did you come here?
- How?
- Where?
- I used to tell him bubbe maises you know,
- story that I knew that place.
- And really I knew that place.
- They had a big fishing place there.
- And I used to come there when I was little.
- And by being by grandmother, she used
- to go get some fish over there.
- So I told him who I am.
- So he made a cross.
- And he said, come in.
- And I told him, I said, listen, I got my husband and my son
- here.
- I said, please, help me.
- You are the only one who could save our life.
- He said, but I don't have no place where.
- I said put us in where the potatoes are, in
- that-- there used to dig a big hole, they say.
- And they used to keep the potatoes over winter.
- And he said, no, I cannot.
- He said, let's go in the next door
- where they kept the horses and the coach,
- and go in there on the hay.
- And they put us up very high on the hay.
- The next day, all around, the neighbors
- what did happen to your place?
- That the dogs were barking and barking and barking.
- He said, oh, nothing.
- Maybe police passed by.
- I don't know.
- We don't know.
- I could be there only five days.
- He said, I cannot keep you anymore, I'm sorry.
- I said, can you get in contact with my uncle, with Itzhak.
- He said, yes, I'll go and I'll tell him.
- So my uncle came in.
- And he took us away from over there.
- And it was snow.
- And we were walking in the snow.
- And the people, the farmers, thought
- that it was the partisan.
- And they thought, I don't know.
- They said, the little boy with little shoes there.
- They said, I think the partisan.
- And he took us away in another place, [? Pashkovsky. ?]
- And we were there until we get liberated.
- So it was no food.
- Where were you until you were liberated?
- Huh?
- Where exactly were you until you were liberated?
- At another farm?
- Another farm.
- We used to go from one farm to the other,
- from one to the other.
- But that farmer was a Christian with a good heart--
- she, his wife, and he himself.
- And he-- my uncle already prepared a day ahead a time
- that we'll come there.
- And if you will be able to keep us.
- So we were over there since the liberation.
- And it was no food.
- I weighed 95 pounds.
- And it was life--
- no life.
- I couldn't forget my people.
- Want to kill myself.
- I said, I don't have any more what to live.
- He said, don't you have a son?
- Don't you have me?
- Not everybody is fortunately lucky
- that we are three together.
- I said, I cannot--
- I cannot sleep.
- I cannot-- it's terrible.
- It is a moment that you cannot--
- it's something you cannot forget,
- and by being over there, hiding ourselves.
- The only man who saved me really, it was my uncle.
- He used to come once a week and to bring us a little goat
- milk, bread, or something else, a little bit that we
- should have to eat.
- And when he used to came a whole week,
- I could live the way he used to talk to me.
- I believed in him.
- It is a feeling that is hard to describe how painful it was.
- Day and night, you couldn't sleep.
- And here, your heart was tearing in pieces.
- I couldn't-- I couldn't talk too much to Izzy,
- because he left his mother too in ghetto.
- But, you know, it is so painful that from a big family,
- his family, and my family, nothing
- was left over except ourselves.
- And I don't know from where I had the power, I really
- don't, to go on my life.
- It's hard.
- When you lose one person at a time,
- maybe it's a little different.
- It still hurts.
- But when you lose everybody in one time,
- and everybody with love to, and you
- are with love to the family, you would cut your fingers
- for them.
- And yet I lost them in 10 minutes, exactly 10 minutes.
- [SOBBING]
- I cannot forgive myself.
- I want to run with them.
- They didn't let me.
- They didn't let me go, the police.
- I could see right now my mother the way
- she turned around and looked at me, and I looked at her.
- [SOBBING]
- Does Jay remember your mother?
- Huh?
- What does Jay remember?
- Does he remember your mother?
- He does.
- He does remember.
- On all the days with the farmers,
- what would you do with Jay?
- How would you spend each day?
- Huh?
- How would you spend each day with Izzy and with Jay?
- How would the day pass?
- What would you do?
- When?
- During the war?
- No, when you were with the farmers.
- At the farmers?
- Yes, when you were hiding.
- Well, we were with the pigs.
- I was with the pigs and sheep there all day
- and at night, all of us because we were afraid.
- We were afraid to be--
- and then we used to be in a barn where
- they used to keep the corn and hay and straw, you know.
- That was our life.
- And the mice was our partners.
- Would you tell stories?
- And the mice was running over you.
- Would you tell stories to keep Jay--
- Jay, we were all together.
- And all three of us, we didn't move, all three of us in one.
- And Jay behaved himself very good.
- He was very quiet.
- He was very good.
- Did you talk to each other, or did you have to be quiet?
- Huh?
- Could you talk to each other?
- Oh, yes, we used to talk to each other,
- sure, because nobody was there.
- And nobody was there.
- We can talk.
- But what can you talk?
- What?
- The lost of the family?
- Crying all the time.
- I don't know from where I got the tears.
- But the tears used to run no matter
- where I was going, because the pain was deep in my heart.
- Did you have any dreams for after the war?
- Oh, honey, dreams, hollering and--
- even right now, even right now, come back to you.
- And you know when you are asleep,
- you think that you have to fight with them.
- You have to run.
- You run from one place to the other.
- Here are the German.
- Here is the Lithuanian.
- And then you start screaming.
- And you scream when you are asleep.
- I used to wake up Izzy.
- And he used to wake me up.
- He said, what?
- Get up.
- I used to get up.
- I didn't know where I was.
- I didn't.
- I didn't know that how pitiful it was.
- Yeah.
- And Izzy, when we were there at the last place
- where we were, it was already hot,
- the places where my uncle was.
- And we have to go in there to [? Pashkovsky, ?]
- where we have been.
- And my husband digged.
- They used to call a malina, a hiding place.
- There was two-- where you keep the potatoes-- two big holes
- where you keep the potatoes.
- And it was already in springtime.
- So there wasn't enough potatoes to keep.
- So my husband started digging the place.
- And he made from one place to the other
- to go in, so like a little tunnel.
- And he was digging.
- And all of a sudden, the sand was--
- the sand-- started the sand coming.
- And it covered him up up to here.
- And he couldn't move.
- And he had just a little light, like from a flashlight, not
- a flashlight, like a candle.
- That farmer has a son.
- And on Sunday--
- Saturdays, they used to go out to play fiddle.
- And they used to play fiddle.
- And you cannot scream.
- You cannot holler.
- You don't know nothing.
- But there was a dog.
- And the dog was running to him and kissing him
- and running and kissing.
- All of a sudden, the dog have seen
- that the son is coming, John.
- And he ran to him.
- And he ran back to that place.
- He run to him and got back to this place.
- And he came in and have see my husband
- that he was covered up with the sand and digged him out.
- He digged him out from the sand.
- It is just miracles--
- miracles and luck.
- Where were you when this happened to your husband?
- I was with Jay inside.
- And he was doing the digging outside.
- When can you do it?
- At night when everybody is asleep, when
- the farmers couldn't see you.
- So he used to work by little--
- like a candle, you know.
- That's what kind of light he had.
- And he built-- and later on he really built it up, you know,
- a little tunnel.
- And there was my uncle with his wife and two children.
- And some other people came from the ghetto.
- And everybody was there.
- And we were laying on the floor like dead people.
- You know, you even couldn't light up a match.
- When you said you were inside when your husband was digging,
- where were you inside?
- Inside by the farmer.
- With the farmer?
- Yeah.
- And then after your husband dug this hole,
- and it was the three of you, how did it come to be more people?
- Oh, that was his friends came, my husband's cousin
- who helped us to came, who helped
- us to come to that place.
- So he came with his cousins and so on.
- And that happened we were there for three months.
- And this was no food, no nothing.
- And the dog, when he used to bark,
- we used to know that people are there.
- And then we could go out.
- It is at night, 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock in the morning,
- to catch your breath a little bit and then back again.
- Honey, what kind of life was it?
- That was impossible, impossible.
- People wouldn't believe that dead people were alive.
- It's like a grave, exactly like a grave,
- that you couldn't stand up.
- Only was like for children.
- How we used to go in?
- We used to slide in the way I told you, on your stomach.
- And when you were inside, could you see light?
- No, nothing.
- I told you that we couldn't-- it was so thick the air that we
- couldn't light up a match.
- A match couldn't be lighted up.
- He made a tiny little chimney like probably
- like that was that nobody could see.
- That's all.
- But it used to come in.
- It's sometimes I think myself, how in the world
- did I went through?
- From where did I got the power?
- The power to life or power because--
- maybe for my son because my son was my eye and my ear,
- and both of were.
- And Jay was sick, no medicine, no nothing.
- His gums were swelled up.
- And you know how they healed?
- With onions rub, or garlic.
- She used to take and rub him, you know, the--
- that is everything that I am telling.
- You just nothing, nothing.
- But a person can go through your life.
- But that may be because I was young.
- I was at that time 28.
- How did you know when the war was over?
- Huh?
- How did you know when the war was over?
- Oh, yeah, my husband used to go with my uncle at night
- and get some corn.
- And we used to take the corn there at the farmers.
- And you know, they used to put in two stones.
- And you used to turn around like that
- and make the flour for the bread.
- They used to go there to a place where they had a radio.
- And through the radio we find out
- that the army is already near here.
- And that was in 1944, July.
- In July, we got liberated.
- And what was-- how did you--
- tell me about your liberation.
- Huh?
- Tell me how were you liberated.
- How we got liberated?
- Well, we have seen the Russian army came.
- And the Russian army went through to that place
- where we used to be.
- There was not a highway, but the second highway was there.
- And that the way the military went through to that.
- And they went to Kovne, you know.
- And that's what we find out that we are already liberated.
- The Germans, they are not there, the Germans.
- And the Lithuanian people--
- and the Russians came in.
- And then was the time when we got liberated.
- And from there my husband went--
- [PAUSES] my husband went first back to Kovne,
- you know, to Kaunas, where the ghetto was.
- And he thought maybe perhaps somebody
- will survive from his family.
- Nobody.
- They had a place to hide.
- And they thought that will be the place where
- they could survive.
- And they burned up the house.
- And they burned up the other place where they was hiding.
- They shot them and burned them.
- And that was the end from his family--
- his mother, both sisters.
- That little boy what she has went with his father.
- And it was the big Aktion for the children.
- I didn't see them anymore.
- I saw them when I left.
- So nobody survived from them.
- Did you go to the ghetto with your husband?
- Huh?
- After the war, when he went back to the ghetto
- to try to find them, were you with him?
- Well, I was with him.
- I was with him.
- We have seen--
- I cannot talk anymore.
- It's so many things, so many things.
- And maybe because of Jay, because it's no more life
- to live, but because of my little boy, he needs us.
- But not one time, I want to take my life.
- But then I said, who will raise Jay?
- Is there anything else to be afraid of after what
- you've been through?
- No.
- I-- one second.
- Wouldn't you mind to ask me again?
- Is there anything left to be afraid of after what
- you've been through?
- Well, I know only one thing.
- After the liberation, I couldn't get used to go on the sidewalk
- because they used to go on the highway.
- And for a Jew wasn't allowed to go on the sidewalk.
- And I told my husband, I said, how can I get
- used to get on the sidewalk?
- That how much did used to go.
- A dog, a cat, they used to go freely wherever they wanted.
- But that you never, never.
- And another thing I want to tell you, people said, luck.
- And I said, Mazel.
- You know what it means?
- I said, if you really did have Mazel by going through so much.
- And the good Lord saved us.
- That's what I am telling you right now.
- It's just nothing.
- As long as you didn't go through.
- You know what I mean?
- But you have to go through and see everything
- with your own eyes.
- The
- Way here you're talking to the people
- and the people disappeared.
- Here, you talk to the people, and the people are disappeared.
- Everywhere it was a selection.
- Here, they special took a man.
- And they hanged in the ghetto exactly the way
- you go in by the guard where it is,
- because they found a loaf of bread.
- So the next day, they hanged him.
- And everybody has to go out and to see that.
- Would you believe it?
- Now, today, you, Edna, what are you afraid of?
- Well, I was afraid when I came here.
- And I used to see the brown uniforms what
- the police used to wear.
- And each time I used to see a brown uniform, I said,
- the Gestapo, the Gestapo, because they
- used to wear brown uniforms.
- And when we came here, we have to make life
- from the beginning.
- Like I said, we couldn't go to the profession what Izzy had,
- lawyer.
- So he said, Edna, he said, I'm not going to college.
- I said, why?
- He said, you have to be born and raised here in America.
- You have to have the language.
- You have to have the dialect.
- You have to have everything what a lawyer needs.
- He said, I cannot.
- I cannot do it.
- He said, we have to start it up from something else.
- I said, what is in your mind?
- He said, you know, I like to open up a service station.
- I looked at him.
- And he said, yes, I'm going to learn in a service station.
- He went and he learned.
- And he worked in the service station for a couple of months.
- No language, no nothing.
- Listen, honey, that was no picnic.
- But he learned.
- When he used to come at home I used to see him,
- the way he used to come home with the coverall,
- it really hurts.
- It really hurts me because my husband never
- knew how to take a cup of coffee or a glass of tea.
- Then he said-- then he was working
- in Pepsi-Cola for my uncle, you know, my aunt who brought me.
- And uncle said to him, I want to send you something
- that you should qualify at that.
- He said, Uncle, Dear, I thank you very much.
- I came to this country not to work for somebody else.
- I want to work for myself.
- He said, Izzy, what you go do?
- What you want?
- He said, I want a service station.
- And why he want the service station?
- Because he had a motorcycle when he was single.
- And the motorcycle, he likes to go and to fix.
- And the way it happened before the war,
- and he couldn't practice anymore law,
- so he took the agent for motorcycles.
- And the motorcycles came from Belgium.
- And some of them came from England.
- FN, FN was from Belgium.
- And [? Iron ?] motorcycle was from England.
- And he started up in 1938.
- He used to work-- he used to go out and sell it, you know?
- And I used to sell at home.
- I used to work with him together.
- And that the way he wants to do it.
- And he said, we go start it up from the service station.
- And watching a couple of years later,
- you get used, know a little the language and so on, he said,
- I want to go in the wholesale business, in the part business.
- And when you said, in 1938 he was
- in the motorcycle business--
- Yeah.
- In 1938, what did you know about Kristallnacht?
- The Kristallnacht, we find out--
- oh, yeah, that's a long story too.
- Tell me what you knew and how you knew.
- My husband was at that time in Germany.
- I didn't.
- But he did.
- It was in 1938, or in 1939, when he was going to Belgium
- and to make the order, the motorcycles.
- Then he had an aunt in Berlin, Tante Johanna.
- And he was over there.
- He stopped over there to visit his aunt.
- And then when it started up--
- and he was fortunately lucky to come back home.
- Because on his suitcase used to be
- Israel, his full name Israel Ipp.
- And Israel is that the way used to call the Jewish people,
- Israeli, Israel.
- And he was fortunately lucky to go through
- that they didn't took him off from the train.
- And there was a lady.
- He said, you know, Mr. Ipp, that you are fortunately lucky.
- They could arrest you and put you in a concentration camp.
- So let me-- there's one more piece
- that I would like you to tell me a little bit more about.
- You told us about the wonderful days in Lithuania
- when life was good and you didn't have
- the problem of antisemitism.
- By 1938, you already knew that there was trouble.
- What happened in between?
- How did it change from good to not good?
- It changed a whole lot.
- Because from Germany, we were on the border, Germany
- and Lithuanian.
- And soon they started up over there.
- You had a feeling already that it is difference.
- And then another thing, when the Russians came in 1940s,
- they came in in Lithuanian.
- Then it started up the rest.
- Then was, you know, a hell, to say the way it is.
- You couldn't go out.
- You couldn't say anything.
- It was terrible.
- It was awful.
- Wherever you used to go, everybody
- used to point, Zydas, Zydas, Zydas.
- You know what Zydas means?
- Jew, Jew, Jew.
- And how did they know?
- Well, you have plenty of people you know.
- Christian people who knew you.
- And on your face, you could see that Jewish people.
- The Jewish people were entirely different
- from the Christian people.
- It's unbelievable.
- So even before--
- But the worst thing that it was was when
- it came when the Russians came.
- And after the Russians, that when the Germans came in,
- that was the worst thing in the world.
- But between '35 and '38 was not so bad.
- You still could go on and live, like for instance,
- here, democracy.
- You still could go on.
- They didn't kill you.
- They didn't shoot you.
- So they used to write, Zydas, Zydas, different things,
- articles in the paper.
- But they didn't kill you.
- And when it started up the slaughtering
- when they got in the ghetto--
- and even before the ghetto, they started up already
- when the Russians started going away.
- So then when they start doing the slaughtering.
- It is in a place it took 45 or 52 people, men.
- And it was there a gasoline station.
- And they took the people.
- And they got gas, put it up all over them,
- and they burned them up.
- Would you believe it?
- They took out 512 people, all intelligent people, lawyers
- and doctors and bookkeeper.
- I could see in front of me that was across from our house
- that we used to live on the ghetto was already.
- And they took the people and friends--
- many friends was over there what we knew,
- we raised together, lawyers and doctors.
- And they took them.
- And they want to take them to check some books, to check over
- in the archive.
- And all of them, they killed overnight.
- Not one survived.
- So when you told the Lithuanians at the selection
- that you were a dressmaker--
- Yeah, he let me go.
- They let you go.
- Yeah.
- And were you a dressmaker--
- And why?
- I'll tell you why, because what it happen
- that the Arbeitsamt let out, give you certificates,
- who is a tailor, who is a shoemaker, who is-- all working
- people, you know, about 300.
- And I had a feeling that can save your life.
- And they want to give to my husband too.
- My husband said, no, I don't need it.
- Whatever will be with everybody that will be with me.
- And that's what it saved me by going there
- and tell him what I am.
- They have to have for the soldiers
- to show the Werkstatten that they used to have the places.
- So there was lined up with people.
- You still have to have [NON-ENGLISH],, to go in there,
- to show, to fix up the clothes and different things,
- whatever you can do, like caps and here for your ears
- and gloves to make.
- That's what they have to have the people who
- knew to be worker.
- But intelligent people they didn't need.
- And did you work as a dressmaker?
- No.
- I learned here.
- When I came to this country at [INAUDIBLE],,
- my first job was there.
- And I learned there how to sew.
- And I hate it.
- It was too monotonous for me.
- I was crying and doing the work.
- And I couldn't take.
- But I learned.
- I didn't know how to make a hem.
- I didn't know how to put in a zipper.
- So they used to pay me a little.
- And I used to do the work.
- And I was very handy for that.
- Then after that, I used to take a little work at home.
- And then my husband found a place, the service station.
- And then the doctor said take her out from the house
- because I felt terrible.
- I thought I could lose my mind.
- So I got into the service station.
- I don't know how to pump gas.
- I knew what to do, but I couldn't.
- Came in a car, a new car, a Studebaker.
- And he said, fill it up.
- Filled it up?
- That was a miracle.
- I filled up the gas and start to stop.
- I took the nozzle and I pressed.
- And the gas popped up to the ceiling.
- And he, said, oh, Edna, we lost a customer.
- I said, honey, I told you I'm not a service station operator.
- Oh, he said, oh, it's all right.
- Another episode what I want to tell you.
- But it happened in the service station.
- Well, let's take one quick break.
- How much time do we have left on the tape?
- About 17 minutes on the tape.
- OK.
- What lesson do you want us to learn from your experience?
- From my experience, I just don't know--
- see your life clear, no matter what
- you are doing, no matter what kind of work you are doing.
- Don't get disappointed.
- Do whatever you can to charity.
- Take your life with--
- how to say-- no matter how bad it is,
- always look ahead of you.
- Don't never look behind.
- But look ahead.
- Look ahead.
- Tomorrow will be a better day.
- And day after tomorrow will be still better.
- And don't get disappointed in your life,
- even if you have to scrub the floors,
- even when you have to work for somebody else
- just to make a living.
- Do it and keep your pride.
- Keep your chin high.
- You are a person like everybody.
- That the way I changed my mind.
- That the way I said, it was, it was over.
- But thanks to my husband's education and my help,
- that's what we got right now in a free country
- where you can live no matter what you are doing.
- But you can live in freedom.
- You can live at--
- you live in freedom.
- You are not afraid anymore a Nazi or a Lithuanian
- will come and kill you or beat you or everything.
- Here is free.
- Here is the free country.
- I want to tell you one more little thing.
- When I was working in the service station, across from us
- was the Yellow Cab Company.
- There was two men.
- One was the insurance man.
- And the other one was a friend of his.
- They used to observe me the way I used
- to work in the service station.
- And one said to the other, you know what I'll tell you?
- That woman doesn't have any problems in her life.
- I said, what do you mean?
- Everybody got problems.
- He said, I observe her from day to day.
- That woman she walks out, she smiles all the time.
- He said, the other one said, I bet you
- that everybody got problems, and she got too.
- If she would have problems, she wouldn't smile.
- He said, let's go in and ask her.
- I'm telling you the truth.
- They walked in the service station, inside.
- And one said, lady, we like to ask you something.
- I said, if I can answer you in English, I'll be glad to.
- But my language is very poor.
- He said, let me tell you something--
- let me ask you something.
- Do you have any problems in your life?
- I said, why are you asking me?
- He said, any time you observe, any time you walk out,
- you talk to the people.
- You smile.
- You never mean.
- A smiling lady.
- I said, darling, if I would tell you my problems
- and my trouble, the biggest tractor and trailer
- wouldn't take away from one corner to the other.
- So the other man said, what did I told you?
- She got problems too.
- I used to cry inside.
- Customer used to come in, I used to smile.
- Some of them came in, Mrs. Ipson, did somebody hurt you?
- Why you cry?
- Oh, I said, I'm sorry.
- I don't cry, but I got a little cold,
- and the tears are running.
- I couldn't stop.
- Wiped off the tears.
- Smile again.
- Is it easier for you now that you
- can tell people why you cry?
- No.
- I didn't tell them.
- But I had a few customers what they used to come in.
- And they were in big problems.
- And I told them, I said, that is no problem.
- You got your family.
- You got everything.
- I said, you can solve your problem.
- You have money for the car.
- Go and say to the people and tell them
- that you lost your job.
- You don't have?
- So you go get the work.
- Go pay him a little at a time, as much as you can.
- And the people, I said, they will help you too.
- You come in, and they will help you.
- I said, don't give up.
- I never give up.
- I always look ahead.
- I had worse than you did.
- And I made it.
- You can make it too.
- Please, believe me, you can make too.
- Go to everybody whom you owe the money.
- Tell everybody what kind of shape you are.
- You don't want nothing.
- You want to pay, but you are just right now out of a job.
- I said, the time will come, you'll have the job.
- Give a dollar here.
- Give a dollar there.
- Give a dollar there.
- And everybody will be happy.
- And you'll be happy with your family.
- And a couple of months later, he came back
- and he thanked me so much.
- He said, Mrs. Ipson, I did it the way you said it.
- I think we're going to cut now and get ready for the pictures.
- Real steady.
- OK, good.
- Thank you, Edna.
- That's good.
- OK.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Edna B. Ipson
- Date
-
interview:
1991 March 25
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
2 videocassettes (U-Matic) : sound, color ; 3/4 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives. Holocaust survivors--United States.
- Personal Name
- Ipson, Edna B., 1913-
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
Jewish Community Federation of Richmond
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The interview with Edna Ipson was conducted on March 25, 1991, by the Jewish Community Federation of Richmond as part of a project to record the testimonies of Holocaust survivors and rescuers in the Richmond, Va., area. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received a copy of the interview in April 1991.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:09:12
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn512475
Additional Resources
Transcripts (2)
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