Oral history interview with Jacqueline Wolf
Transcript
- You told me I have to say my maiden name also, right?
- Yeah.
- No, we want that.
- Sure.
- OK.
- Whenever you're ready.
- OK.
- And [INAUDIBLE]
- Oh, of course.
- [LAUGHTER]
- Thank you.
- You're prejudiced.
- OK?
- OK, go.
- My name is Jacqueline Wolf.
- I was born Jacqueline Glicenstein.
- Both my parents were born in Poland,
- where they fell in love.
- My father came from a very large family and so did my mother.
- And many of my father's siblings left Poland.
- He was the youngest.
- And when the time came for my father
- to be drafted into the Polish Army,
- he decided to leave Poland, a country he did not
- love, a country didn't want to serve, a country
- where most Jews were second-class citizens.
- And unlike his siblings, who came to America,
- he opted for France.
- My father was always in love with France,
- I suppose even as a young man.
- And in spite of his great love for my mother, he left.
- Eventually, when my maternal grandparents died,
- my mother joined him in France.
- My father lived in Paris at the time.
- But my mother went to live with a cousin
- in a small town in eastern France called Epinal.
- You need to slow up.
- You need to slow up.
- OK.
- And where she decided to settle because she had relatives
- there.
- So my father joined her there, and they got married.
- Eventually I was born in 1928.
- Their lives, at the beginning in France
- was very difficult because it was depression time.
- Foreigners found it very difficult
- to find work because the French people then had difficulties
- finding work themselves.
- So what my parents did, they used
- to go with merchandise in a suitcase,
- and they would go early in the morning
- when the factory workers went to work
- and then wait for them to come out at 12:00
- and pedal their merchandise.
- And they did that for a year or two,
- until they were able to spend--
- save, not spend-- save enough money
- to buy a small panel truck.
- And then they became [FRENCH],, called in France.
- You don't have this in this country.
- But it would be similar to people in the farmers market.
- But in France, every day it was designated
- in each little town around the town that we lived in.
- So they had to travel from one town to the other.
- Fortunately, there was a market in my hometown twice a week.
- So it made it easier for them.
- But they had to get up very early in the morning,
- about 4 o'clock, in order to travel to the next time
- and set up their stand.
- Eventually they did very well.
- I was an only child for quite a long time, 10 years,
- until my sister was born.
- And I complained about it quite a lot because all my friends
- had brothers and sisters.
- And when my sister was born, my father took me in the car.
- And he told me that I had a sister.
- She was born.
- And that they were going to call her Josephine after my--
- his father that was named Joseph.
- And I said, oh, no, Papa, no Josephine.
- That's such an ugly name.
- Please call her Josette.
- And they abide by it, and they called my sister Josette.
- When I went to visit my mother in the hospital,
- everything was pink.
- I don't know.
- She was in a private hospital.
- At the time they were doing very well.
- So she was what it's called in France en clinique.
- Well, a clinique in Europe is the opposite
- of what it is here.
- If you financially can afford it, you go to a private doctor,
- and he has a room for you and so forth.
- So my mother was in this beautiful room.
- Everything was pink.
- I remember everything pink.
- And my little sister was next to my mother in a little crib.
- And my mother said to me, you always
- wanted a brother or a sister, and this is my gift to you.
- Josette is my gift to you.
- Well, this was 1938 by then.
- And of course, we knew what was going on Germany,
- the problem that the German Jews-- as a matter of fact,
- my father, who was a lover of mankind, he was a dreamer,
- a kind of person who once told me if you have but two francs,
- and somebody comes to you and has nothing,
- you give him one franc.
- And that's the type of father that I had.
- And my mother was also a very lovely, kind woman.
- And so my father formed a committee
- for the German people.
- Because we were in eastern France, so
- we were close to the German border.
- So a lot of the German Jews from Germany came to our town.
- And so my father formed this committee
- so we could help them.
- And from then on, there was always some German people
- in our house.
- Some slept over.
- But at our table, there was always
- somebody at all meals that stayed with us.
- And many of them even slept in our home.
- If we didn't have enough beds, they slept on the floor
- until they were able to, hopefully for them,
- make their way to America.
- Of course, in 1939 the war broke out.
- And my father, who was already at the time in his late 30s--
- I would say 37, 38, or 39.
- I don't recall exactly--
- was more French than the French, decided
- to enlist in the French Army.
- He probably wouldn't have been drafted
- because the war in France, as you know,
- with Germany lasted a very short time.
- It started in September, I think, of 1939.
- And by June of, say, 1940, the Germans had invaded France.
- So he probably wouldn't have been drafted, having
- two children and of his age.
- But he enlisted.
- In June of 1940, one morning we woke up,
- and the city was invaded by French soldiers who were
- running away from the Germans.
- So we realized that the Germans would soon be at our door.
- And my mother and her sister decided
- that we should run away from--
- you know.
- So in very short time, my mother packed the car.
- And my aunt, who had just received her driving license,
- begged my mother to take her little girl, who was only three
- at the time with us.
- So my mother, Josette, who was two, myself,
- and my little cousin Janine, were packed in the--
- actually, we were sitting on all the--
- in the backseat on all the things
- that we were able to take with us.
- And my aunt said, we will follow you.
- Unfortunately, when we hit the main roads,
- we were not aware that there would be such a big exodus
- and that everybody was running away.
- So there were people on foot, people with their cattle.
- As a matter of fact, the road was--
- there were so many people that even
- people would walk on the fields around it.
- So soon we lost sight of my aunt.
- We lost her, and she lost us.
- And so we proceeded.
- And on the road, I remember, because there
- were a lot of French soldiers who were running away,
- so the German overhead were shooting at us.
- So we had to go in the ditches in order to avoid being hurt.
- So many people were hurt.
- As a matter of fact, my mother even
- assisted a lady giving birth to a child on the road.
- Eventually we reached a small village
- in the middle of France.
- The name escapes me at the time.
- But it was not far from Vichy, a larger city of Vichy.
- And they housed us in the school, I guess gymnasium.
- But my mother had, obviously, enough money.
- So she went into town and was able to rent
- two rooms in somebody's home.
- And we stayed there for about a month.
- But my mother was very anxious to have news of my father.
- He would never know where we were.
- So in spite of the fact that she knew that the Germans occupied
- a part of the country, after a months she decided--
- and then she had lost her sister on the road.
- So the best thing would be to come back to our hometown,
- call Epinal.
- And so we did.
- And when we arrived at our home, we
- found it occupied by a family that had fled from Alsace.
- And even though we came home, they
- weren't too much in a hurry to leave us.
- And my mother was so afraid, being Jewish, to make waves,
- didn't say anything.
- Eventually they left us.
- And we had no news of my father, of course,
- and no news of my aunt.
- And my mother decided to place both my little cousin
- Janine and my sister in a family outside of town
- so she would be able to continue working.
- And I stayed with my mother and had to go to school.
- The family that she left my little cousin
- Janine and Josette were called Collins.
- And of course, they were referred to as Mama Marie
- and Papa Auguste.
- That was-- and they had one daughter, who was about 16
- at the time.
- And every weekend, of course, we would
- go visit Josette and Janine, but still no news from my father.
- Eventually we received a letter that my father
- was somewhere in Germany as a prisoner of war.
- And we were quite relieved to know, of course,
- that he was alive.
- And he told us we could only write once a month to him
- and vice versa.
- And we were able to send packages if we wanted to.
- And we continued, of course, corresponding with my father.
- In all his letters, my father always
- stressed education to me.
- As a young girl, prior to the war,
- he was extremely strict with my education.
- I even had tutors that came to the house
- if I failed in certain subject.
- And he told me, which I thought was a very big order, that I
- would be the first woman lawyer in the family.
- Why a lawyer?
- I guess maybe I talked a lot.
- I don't know.
- But anyway, that's what my-- and education was very important.
- And even when he was a prisoner of war,
- he kept telling me to do well in school.
- Life at home, of course, was not very pleasant
- anymore because we had curfews.
- Like, we-- Jews were not allowed to go to stores
- unless they went at certain hours that
- were indicated to them.
- And my mother was a very beautiful woman,
- tall, dark hair, big brown eyes, beautiful woman,
- always well dressed because her business was clothing.
- And when we were told, as Jews, when we wore the yellow star,
- that if Germans came towards you on the sidewalk,
- we were to step in the gutter.
- And my mother, being as proud as she was, never did it.
- And absolute that particular incident--
- so she never had any problem.
- But that particular day, we were both walking,
- and this German officer came towards her and told her to get
- on the sidewalk, and she wouldn't.
- And he pushed her.
- And she fell, and she got up.
- And she started to walk again.
- And of course, he called her a few choice names.
- And her knee was bleeding, but she was a very proud woman.
- And she went back onto the sidewalk.
- And by then, a lot of the French people
- were in the street, were screaming and yelling
- at the German.
- So eventually he left us alone, and we
- went home, both of us crying.
- By that time, the Germans, with the French--
- we were in occupied France, by the way.
- I forgot to say that.
- France was divided into two zones, occupied zone
- and non-occupied zone.
- Of course, where I live was occupied zone.
- And a lot of the Jewish people tried
- to run into freed France, where the French government was
- the Vichy government, who were actually
- collaborators with the German.
- It was headed by Marshal Petain, who
- was an old man by then, who had been
- a hero in the war of 1914-1918 war.
- And the prime minister was called Pierre Laval,
- who was definitely a very big collaborator and definitely not
- a friend of the Jews.
- At that time, the Germans made an arrangement
- with the Vichy government to mobilize
- all young French people for labor in Germany.
- And in return, they would exchange prisoners of war
- who were wounded and sick.
- My father had been slightly wounded.
- He never told us that in his letter,
- but he had been slightly wounded.
- And unfortunately, he was repatriated
- in non-occupied France, in a city called
- Perpignan, where they had a hospital there,
- by the Spanish border.
- And of course, at the time we didn't
- realize that this was an unfortunate thing.
- We were delighted and happy that my father was in Free France.
- And so we were to join him.
- The arrangement had been made that we
- would have-- because he could not
- come back in the occupied zone.
- He had to stay in Free France.
- So we were going to join him when my school was over.
- And the school in France was over in those days two days
- before the 14th of July, which was a national holiday.
- And I was in boarding school at the time.
- My mother had placed me in a boarding school
- for safety, quite a while--
- quite a trip away from our home.
- How old were you at that time?
- At that time, I was exactly 14 years old.
- This was-- we're talking about 1942.
- So as I said, school ended in July, about July--
- I think I came home on July 12.
- I was met by a maid that we had had at the train station, who
- came to give me my sweater with the yellow star
- because, as far as in the school,
- I didn't wear a yellow star.
- I was supposed not to-- nobody knew
- I was Jewish except the head of the school, who
- was very well aware of the fact that I was Jewish.
- But nobody else knew-- maybe some of the teachers,
- but none of the students were supposed
- to know that I was Jewish.
- And I wasn't supposed to tell them.
- And I didn't.
- When I came home that night, as I said,
- this maid came with the sweater with the Jewish star.
- And she informed me that my mother was in the hospital
- and that my father was going to come that very night, home.
- I hadn't seen my father, of course, since 1940,
- so that was 1942.
- It was two years.
- And sure enough, that night--
- of course, I was very upset to hear that my mother was
- in the hospital.
- I didn't know exactly what ailed her.
- Even if I was explained, I didn't understand it very well.
- And my father came that evening.
- And he went, my God.
- I hadn't seen him for two years.
- My father always had gray hair, but I think
- that he would be all white.
- His hair had turned all white, and he
- was very slim and very thin.
- And of course, I was very happy to see him.
- And he informed me that we were going to pack everything
- and that the next morning a friend of ours,
- very early in the morning, was going to come and take us
- to hide us in somebody's home.
- Obviously, we were going to go where my sister was.
- Josette was with Mama Marie and Papa Auguste,
- that family named Collins.
- And we were going to go there and stay there
- until my mother was well enough to be
- discharged from the hospital.
- And so we packed.
- And we had an armoire.
- You know, in France everybody has an armoire.
- And the armoire on the inside had a big mirror.
- The whole door was mirrored.
- And in his eagerness to pack, my father broke the mirror.
- And he said to me, oh, my God.
- That's bad luck.
- And we packed what we could.
- And my father said, no, we should take a rest,
- but Monsieur [FRENCH] was the man that was supposed to come.
- I still remember those names.
- I don't remember what I did yesterday,
- but certain names still stay with me.
- Monsieur [FRENCH] was going to come early in the morning
- to take us.
- And so we went to bed.
- He went in his bedroom.
- I went in mine.
- And then I heard a knock on the door.
- It was still dark, and I thought it was Monsieur [FRENCH] that
- was coming to get us.
- And I went to open the door.
- And to my surprise, there were two Gestapo men dressed
- in-- plain-clothesmen--
- and two German soldiers with a gun-- and one
- was holding a German shepherd-- and a Frenchman
- from the secret police, who was a friend-- not
- a friend of my father, but they called each other
- by first name.
- And they used-- they knew each other very well.
- And they forced themselves, of course,
- inside the door my father.
- I ran to my father's bedroom, and my father
- was white as a sheet.
- And they told us to get dressed.
- They were going to take us to the police station.
- And my father was trembling so that he couldn't even
- button his shirt.
- So he asked me to help him button his shirt, and I did.
- And he got dressed.
- And meanwhile, the Germans were ransacking our house.
- And they were yelling in German to my father, "Schnell, Jude.
- Schwein Jude."
- which means "Fast, you Jewish pig."
- And so we were dressed.
- And they took us down.
- And when we got to the sidewalk, there
- were two Gestapo car, black car.
- I don't know.
- From then on, I remember everything in black and white.
- I understand it's very common, I was
- told, with a lot of children that
- survived the Holocaust, you remember
- those days as black and white.
- And when we hit the street, the Gestapo people
- wanted me to go in one car and my father in the other.
- And I wouldn't do it.
- And they wanted to separate us, and they tried to separate us,
- but I was clinging to my father.
- And by then, all our neighbors-- some of them
- were in the street in their nightgowns and their robes,
- and all the windows were open, and everybody was looking out.
- And they started to shout, leave her alone.
- She's only a child.
- Let her go with her father.
- So I think the Germans let me go with my father
- not so much because they cared about me as a child,
- because a Jewish child was less than an ant on the floor,
- but I think that because they were--
- it was creating a commotion in the street.
- So they let me go with my father.
- And we were driven to the police station.
- It was very close to our home.
- And at the police station, they kept
- asking us where my mother was.
- And we kept saying, we don't know.
- My father was interrogated, first by the German Gestapo,
- who had an interpreter.
- And then they interrogated me, and they
- wanted to know the whereabouts of my mother.
- And without consulting each other,
- we both told the same story.
- We told them that they had a fight,
- and that my mother left home.
- And then we were brought back into the center of the police
- station.
- The French, I have to say that the French policemen were
- stunned.
- They didn't know.
- They didn't even talk to us.
- They were so-- they were embarrassed.
- They felt so bad.
- But they couldn't say anything.
- And my father, even though it was July--
- it was early in the morning, and I lived in a city where the--
- called the Vosges mountains, so even
- though it was July, in the morning it was quite cold.
- So they had a stove in the middle of the police station.
- And we sat around the stove, my father and I.
- And he had a book, a little address book.
- And he kept tearing the addresses
- and throwing them in the stove.
- It's because he had addresses of other Jewish people.
- And I guess he didn't want the Germans to see it.
- He also gave me some money.
- I remember him giving me some money.
- He says, in case we're separated.
- A short time later, my mother appeared.
- And she had a bag--
- not a bag but-- not a bag, a pocketbook-- not a pocketbook,
- but like a little suitcase with a zipper, with towels in it.
- Somebody had obviously given the Germans
- my mother's whereabouts, and they took her out
- of the hospital.
- And of course, I went towards her and we embraced.
- And right after that, they made us go out
- on the sidewalk, where again, a German Gestapo car was waiting.
- And they held me back.
- And they told my parents to enter the car.
- And in spite of the fact that they held me back,
- my mother ran and father came to kiss me.
- And my mother said to me, if they
- let you go free, go tell all the Jews in the town
- that they will be next.
- Because you see, my parents had one distinction.
- They were the first Jews to be arrested in that city.
- And then she turned around to me and she said to me,
- take care of Josette, your sister.
- And those were-- they're my friends in my mind.
- The car disappeared.
- It had to go over the bridge.
- I stood on the sidewalk, stunned.
- I didn't know what happened to me.
- And there was a French policeman,
- who put his arms around me and asked
- me to go back to the police station, which I did.
- But I was-- I mean, you know.
- With your sister?
- Excuse me?
- You went back to the police station with your sister?
- No, my sister was staying with those people,
- with my Mama Marie and--
- the Collins family.
- She was not at home when they came to arrest.
- It was just my father and I. I mean, I was on the sidewalk
- and walked back.
- They asked me to walk back to the police station.
- A short while after that, two women came in.
- These women was a mother and daughter.
- One was a woman who was a laundress
- or had done laundry for my mother, who
- lived in our building.
- And the reason they lived in our building,
- they had their own apartment had been destroyed
- during the bombing, and so they took over my aunt's,
- who had-- didn't you remember the aunt
- that we had lost track of.
- They had taken over their apartment.
- So they lived in our building.
- But in order to go to their apartment,
- you had to pass our door.
- So they were told to take me home to their house
- and take care-- you know, take me into their home
- and watch me.
- But I was to go back to the German kommandantur
- and sign in every single other--
- a specific day that I don't recall at the moment.
- Did they know that you had a younger sister?
- Excuse me?
- Did they know that these you had--
- These two women knew.
- No, no, no.
- The Gestapo, did they know?
- They knew, but they didn't know where she was.
- Obviously, they must have known.
- So my sister was out of town and with this family.
- OK?
- This woman, the laundress' daughter
- was a known prostitute.
- And prostitutes know no distinction.
- They go with whom they pay.
- So when I stayed at their home, I was-- the first night,
- I was told that the next day, during the afternoon
- while the old woman went to do her work,
- I was to stay in the street, that I was not
- to stay in the apartment.
- So I went down in the street, like I was told.
- And all the neighbors were talking to me
- because they felt so bad.
- My parents were very, very well liked by everybody.
- And all of a sudden, Papa Auguste, Monsieur Collins
- came and touched me on my shoulder.
- And I saw him, he was on his bicycle.
- And he said to me, don't say anything.
- When I disappear around the corner,
- just walk slowly and follow me.
- Don't ask me any questions now. and he left.
- And I did.
- And I found him around the corner.
- And he had a man's bicycle, of course,
- so he sat me on the bar.
- And he took me back to their home because he-- you know,
- it was a small town.
- First of all, the Germans had, I think--
- I think they went up to the Collins family
- to inquire about my mother.
- You say it was a small town.
- Did it have a small Jewish community?
- Oh, it had quite a-- as a matter of fact,
- it had a rather large Jewish community for a small town.
- Most of-- a lot of the stores in the main street
- were owned by Jews, and most of them also emigrant Jews.
- Because the French Jews were already
- well established as lawyers and industrials and so forth.
- The town was about 40,000 people.
- About 40,000 people in this town.
- So I ended up at the Collins home, of course.
- And Papa Auguste, I refer to him because that
- was his name, Monsieur Collins or Papa August.
- And I had a big garden in the back of their home,
- where they grew their own vegetables and everything else.
- And in the back of the garden were-- in France,
- in all the farms, they used at that time horse manure
- for fertilizer.
- Yes.
- And so every farmer had a pile in the front of their home,
- the bigger the pile of course, the richer the farmer.
- But of course, this was a private home.
- So the pile of horse manure was in the back of-- all the ways
- back to the back of the garden.
- And Papa Auguste told me that he had
- digged a very big hole in the ground,
- and he had put the horse manure on top of a piece of wood.
- And in case a German came to the home--
- they adored my sister.
- Of course, they adored my little sister.
- And in case the Germans came to the house,
- there was enough room for two people to go into this hole.
- And he would cover it with this piece of wood
- with the horse manure.
- Now, as a coincidence-- the Collins family
- lived on a very steep hill, right
- on top of a very steep hill.
- And the mayor of the town, his last name was Collins.
- And their name was Collins.
- When the Germans finally came a week or two later
- to look for Josette and I, they went to the Collins,
- the mayor's home first.
- They thought that's where we were.
- A neighbor ran immediately and came to warn us.
- So Papa Auguste and Mama, he made us run into the garden
- and did put us in that trench, and covered us
- with the horse manure.
- What happened to your cousin, your little cousin?
- I forgot to tell you.
- My aunt eventually came back to Epinal
- looking for her daughter.
- And to her relief she, found that we were safe.
- She had been told by someone that our car had been bombed
- and had been exploded--
- and had exploded, and we were all killed, by the way,
- by somebody from Epinal who had seen a car similar to ours
- who, in fact, had exploded.
- But to her relief, she came and took her daughter back
- to non-occupied France, where she--
- So she was out of this home.
- She was out of--
- yes.
- And so we hid in this trench.
- And we could hear the Germans, with their dogs barking
- and everything.
- And my little sister was only four at the time.
- I was 14, and Josette was four.
- We have-- I'm 10 years her senior.
- And I had to put my hand in front of her mouth
- because she was crying.
- Well it seemed like an eternity.
- It probably wasn't.
- But of course, eventually the daughter
- kept going back to the us and to whisper that the Germans are
- leaving and we don't want to let you out right away
- in case they come back.
- So eventually they took us out of this trench.
- And we went to neighbors across the street.
- It was no longer safe to stay at the Collins home.
- Are these non-Jewish neighbors?
- Of course, non-Jewish, very plain, poor.
- I mean, working class people in France.
- And so we went to the neighbors across the street,
- who took us in for the night.
- And it was decided that they had cousins--
- the Collins family had relatives of some sort
- in a small, little village not too far away
- from where they lived.
- And we would stay there until it was decided what to do with us.
- And then Mama Marie got in touch with cousins
- of my mother, who had lived in the South of France
- in non-occupied France, who had lived in a castle.
- This cousin had five children of her own,
- who ranged from about 23 to also four, eventually--
- in different ages.
- And so she--
- I don't know how she got in touch with them,
- and this cousin of my mother said,
- if there's nothing else that can be done, send her two children.
- Now, I was of age 14 at the time.
- In order to cross the border from occupied France
- to non-occupied France, I needed papers that
- were not given that readily.
- And especially, a Jew could not apply for papers.
- So I had to pass the border illegally.
- Josette was able to go with a woman
- because children under a certain age did not require papers.
- So if you were with an adult they did not--
- so to pass Josette and non-occupied France
- would be easy.
- For me, I had to cross illegally.
- And Mama Marie again found someone who told me what to do.
- I had to take a train to a certain town, where
- I would go to a cafe where the people had experience
- in helping Jews or anyone that wanted to cross the border.
- So I took this train.
- I didn't take the train in Epinal, of course,
- because it was dangerous.
- So I took the train-- somebody took me
- on a motorcycle in the nearby little town,
- where I took a train to this town.
- But of course, the trains at that time
- were not exactly requisitioned, but they
- were used mostly for the military who were the Germans.
- So when I sat in the compartment,
- I was the only civilian.
- And of course, there was three Germans
- on this side, two next to me, and I near the window.
- And I was 14 years old.
- And obviously, well-- for my age,
- I was as tall as I am today, I never grew much after that.
- And I was very well--
- I didn't realize why this German soldier was staring at me.
- I was convinced that he knew exactly where I was going
- and that-- but of course, he was staring for different reasons.
- To my relief, when I got off the train, he did not follow me.
- He went further.
- And I got off in this little town.
- It was flooded with Germans because it was the border.
- So there was a lot of German.
- And in order to reach this cafe, where
- I was going to speak to the people that
- were going to pass me illegally, I had to pass,
- I remember, on the main street, a German kommandantur
- with a flag that looked bigger than life.
- And I was scared.
- And every soldier that looked at me,
- I was sure that he knew why I was there.
- So eventually, I reached this cafe.
- And it was 12 o'clock, dinner time.
- I mean, because in France they have, not dinner time,
- but they have their big meal.
- And the cafe was full of people.
- And I rushed over to the bar.
- And I said to the bartender--
- and there were Germans at the bar,
- also standing, drinking beer.
- And I told the bartender why I was there.
- And I blurted out very loudly, and the poor man turned white.
- And he grabbed me and told me to be quiet.
- That was going to have him.
- You're crazy.
- I mean, you know.
- And fortunately, the Germans hadn't understood.
- The two Germans that were at the counter
- did not understand French.
- And the people that were around were too busy.
- And then nobody heard me, even though I was quite loud.
- He dragged me into the kitchen, and he was quite angry at me.
- And there was an old grandmother there
- that was helping in the kitchen, preparing meals, kept
- saying to him, leave her alone.
- She's only a child.
- Leave her alone.
- Because he was quite angry.
- I could have had--
- I mean, this was a very dangerous thing
- they were doing.
- So they told me to sit there, and I did
- until know lunchtime was over.
- And finally they had--
- because lunchtime in France is two hours.
- It was from 12:00 to 2:00.
- So eventually he came with his wife and his daughter
- and the whole family.
- They came back into the kitchen, where I was sitting,
- to eat their own meal.
- And he was still very angry with me.
- But his family calmed him down because I
- was only a young girl.
- And they told me that I would sleep over there that night,
- and the next day they would help me across the border.
- And the daughter, who was about 18,
- was the one that was going to help me.
- And how I was to cross the border,
- you see, the town was divided by a train station, and the rail--
- By the tracks.
- By the tracks.
- And the so the people who lived in that town
- were able to go back and forth.
- They had papers because they had relatives or business
- back and forth.
- So the Germans knew them well.
- They had no problem crossing.
- But of course, I couldn't do that.
- So this young girl took me to a small area.
- And she explained to me the other tracks.
- The tracks were elevated, and there were bushes,
- and we were standing there.
- And she said she showed me that there
- were two German guards that were guarding this-- those tracks.
- And they were going back and forth like this.
- And then, of course, they would meet in the middle,
- and they would go back this way.
- And when they reached the other side, they would turn around.
- And the idea is for me to cross when they were like this.
- And I had to run across the track
- and she told me that when I ran across the track,
- I was on the other side, I would be
- completely safe and in free France
- and that the Germans couldn't do nothing to me at that point,
- that I was in unoccupied France.
- And she showed me a house from where we stand.
- And she told me it was her aunt's house.
- And when I got on the other side,
- I was to go to that house, where she would be waiting for me.
- Well, she gave me the signal.
- And I ran.
- And I ran across the track.
- And on the other side, I fell into a ditch
- that was full of water.
- And even though she had told me that I was in free France,
- I didn't believe that I was in free France.
- And I was afraid to get out of this ditch.
- And Germans kept coming back and forth.
- And the dogs were barking quite loudly because they obviously
- must have known there was somebody there.
- But they couldn't see me.
- There was the bushes and so forth.
- They couldn't see me.
- And I was afraid.
- I stayed there for quite a long time.
- And finally this girl got a little nervous,
- so she came to fetch me.
- And she got me out of the ditch.
- And she assured me that I didn't have to worry anymore,
- that I was in Free France.
- So she took me to her aunt's house.
- And they received me very well.
- They took care of my-- oh, I had no change of clothes,
- by the way, I had nothing.
- So they cleaned my clothes.
- I don't know what they lend me something to wear.
- In the meantime, they fed me.
- And I remember only one thing about that night.
- I slept in that bed and it was so cozy.
- Maybe it wasn't as cozy as I remember it.
- But because I felt relieved that I wasn't Free France,
- I remember that bed being so warm and comfortable and safe.
- I was told that the next morning there
- was a car that I would take that would take me
- to the next town, where there was a train station because it
- was quite far from the nearest train station,
- that I could take a train to take me
- towards my destination, which was South of France.
- And so the next morning we went to this car.
- But unfortunately, somebody had more money than me.
- And they paid the man more money.
- And there was no room for me in that car.
- So I decided that I was going to walk, do this by foot.
- Even though they advised me not to, but I was in such a hurry
- to reach my destination, so I decided
- that I would go by foot.
- And I started in my journey.
- And it was quite far.
- So I had to cross a very big forest.
- And to be quite honest with you, I was very scared.
- It was getting dark, and the birds all over the place,
- right.
- You were all alone?
- All alone.
- And I was quite scared because there
- was dead animals on the floor.
- So the crows-- there were crows all over the place
- eating those dead animals and flying all over me.
- And to this day, because of that,
- I'm extremely scared of birds that they fly.
- I'm never scared to look at them.
- But I can't stand birds flying near me
- because I was surrounded by hundreds of crows.
- So I was-- it was really quite an experience,
- a scary experience.
- I came to a clearing, and there was a house.
- And so I knocked on the door.
- And this lady came to the door.
- She was holding a baby in her arms.
- She had a little child on her side.
- And I explained the situation to her.
- And I told her that it was getting dark
- and that I was scared, and that I
- was to reach the city called Bourg-en-Bresse.
- That was the city that I was supposed to reach,
- where there would be--
- When you said that you told the woman your story,
- did you tell her also--
- did you blurt it out like you did before?
- Oh, it didn't matter.
- I was in Free France.
- So this was fine.
- And this woman was a young woman.
- I told you, she was holding a baby in her arms
- and a little girl at her side.
- And she told me to come in.
- She said that her husband was working in the field
- but that I should come in and they
- would take me in for the night.
- And then her uncle was a butcher.
- And he was doing his round.
- And he was going to pass in the morning.
- So when he was doing his run, he would
- be able to take me to Bourg-en-Bresse,
- where I was supposed to take the train
- to go towards my destination.
- And so they took me--
- they took me in all night.
- They fed me.
- They felt very bad for me.
- I mean, I was a kid of--
- a child of 14.
- I want you to know that these people,
- I only met them that one day.
- Later on, I have to go ahead to tell you this.
- Later on, I was in a boarding school
- in a town called Avignon.
- And I kept corresponding with them.
- And when I told them that I was hungry,
- they sent me packages, as well as
- the people in the restaurant that passed me.
- And for years I corresponded with these people.
- But while I was in that school, these people
- would send me packages.
- I only spent that short time with them.
- A lot of bad things have been said
- about the French collaborators.
- And many Jewish people were wouldn't
- have been deported if it wasn't for the Vichy government.
- But very little has been said about the nice people that
- saved our lives.
- So it's important to bring it to everybody's attention.
- So at anyway, eventually-- it's a long story,
- so I won't go into it.
- But eventually I ended up in my cousin's home.
- And I was quite--
- In Free France?
- In Free France.
- I was quite impressed.
- It was a castle.
- You know, it was more of a Renaissance-type of Castle,
- not middle--
- not the middle age type, but still a castle.
- They were quite wealthy people.
- But still, they had five children to worry about.
- And they took me in.
- Eventually, this lady with papers for Josette, so Josette
- came, of course.
- And so now there were seven children.
- How long had you been separated from Josette?
- Oh, maybe a month.
- I was quite anxious.
- Because, don't forget, my mother said take care of Josette.
- So this was like branded into my brain.
- That's all I-- Josette was my responsibility.
- So my cousin decided that I should go to boarding school
- in Avignon, which I did.
- And each-- her daughter went to school too.
- My cousin was exactly my age, but she went to a school
- in Orange, which was another town.
- [CROSS TALK]
- Oh, yes.
- And so my cousin gave each child a little bag made out
- of material with some money in it in case something happened,
- we should have some money.
- So I would come back on weekends occasionally and on holidays
- to the castle because it wasn't that far
- to see Josette, of course--
- I was very attached to Josette-- and to be with them.
- And I have to say that this was my mother's first cousin whom
- I referred to as my aunt, but she was actually
- my mother's first cousin.
- And in spite of the fact that she had five children,
- Josette and I were treated no better or no worse
- than her children.
- And the reason I say no better, when you have five children,
- you have to exercise some discipline with them.
- So we were--
- I will always be grateful to this cousin
- of my mother, who is no longer with us, of course now.
- One day when I came back on the weekend,
- I noticed, as I approached the castle,
- that there was German trucks all over the place
- and German soldiers everywhere.
- So I realized that there was something wrong.
- So I went to the nearby farmer because the castle was also
- part of an estate that they were cultivating.
- And so they had farmers that worked for them.
- I went to the nearest farmer, who
- informed me that my cousin, Marceline, was my own age--
- and her father, and two other young women
- who had come to visit had been arrested by the German.
- And fortunately, my mother's cousin
- was in the back of her garden with her youngest son,
- who was my sister's age, Michele, my sister Josette,
- and her daughter Jacqueline.
- And she, of course, realized that the German was coming.
- So she ran away and went to one of her farmers,
- who eventually took her to another town,
- but they didn't know where.
- Now here I was, middle of nowhere.
- But thank God, I had this little bag with money.
- And my mother's sister I knew was
- in a city called Saint Pourcain, also near Vichy,
- with her husband and two children.
- And I thought this is where I must go.
- I didn't know where else to go.
- So I took the train.
- This was a long trip because we were
- at the bottom of the South of France.
- And I had to go all the way up and back
- into the middle of France.
- So it was a long trip.
- And as I said, the trains were not scheduled properly,
- so it took me quite a while.
- And I arrived at my aunt's house, my mother's sister,
- with my two cousins, Janine and Ida and my uncle, her husband.
- Well, my aunt wasn't too happy to see me.
- I guess she was scared.
- By that time, the Germans decided
- to occupy all of France.
- There was no more Free France.
- How long since you had left your parents
- or heard from your parents?
- Well, we're talking probably a year later.
- And during that year, you were wondering
- what happened to your parents?
- Well, of course.
- The only thing, we didn't know that about concentration camp.
- I mean, we were told that they were deported to work camps
- in Germany.
- This is what we were told, that they
- went to work because the Germany needed labor.
- Because a year in a young woman's life
- means an awful lot.
- Of course.
- So when I arrived at my aunt's, I
- noticed that she wasn't too happy.
- And then my cousin was exactly my age.
- Although we were very close, this cousin of mine--
- he died now-- but you know, my aunt wasn't--
- I don't know.
- I don't think she liked me very much for whatever reason
- she had of her own.
- And she was a very neurotic woman, to say the least.
- And she was scared.
- They had to hide.
- As I said, the Germans now had occupied all of France.
- So the Jews were no longer safe in free
- so-- there was no more Free French.
- As I said, this town was near Vichy.
- And I was a very curious child.
- And my father always told me about all the beautiful cities
- in France.
- So one day I told my aunt that I wanted to take the bus
- and go to Vichy, to visit the town of Vichy.
- And she let me.
- I took the bus.
- And I was walking around Vichy.
- And that in France, like most places in Europe,
- they have cafes.
- And in the warm weather, people sit outside.
- And I passed by a cafe, and I heard some men talking.
- And I looked, and I noticed that this man looked
- extremely familiar to me.
- And I kept looking at him, and I kept saying he's from Epinal.
- So sure enough, I walked over, and I looked.
- I said to him--
- I didn't know his name.
- I didn't know him personally.
- I said, are you from Epinal.
- And he said, yes.
- And I said to him, I am Paul Glicenstein's daughter.
- You probably knew my father.
- And he was a Jewish man.
- And he said, of course I knew your father, very well.
- And we spoke.
- And I told him--
- he knew all about us and that my parents had been arrested.
- And he said to me, I want to go back
- to your aunt's house with you tonight.
- I'll take the bus back with you, because he knew
- my aunt also and her husband.
- And I'll take you home.
- And so we did.
- And my aunt only had two rooms, like a small kitchen and one
- bedroom, where everybody slept.
- And some of us slept even on the floor in the kitchen.
- I don't know what my aunt told me,
- but this man said to me that he was going to take me.
- Now, I don't know where Josette is at that time.
- And I feel very guilty and very bad
- because my mother said take care of Josette,
- and I have absolutely no idea where my sister is.
- And so this man said to me, for my safety,
- it would be best if I would go in a small village.
- He used to go there quite often for food
- because people in the cities would
- go into villages to get some food because in the cities
- everything was rationed.
- And with money, you could--
- there was a lot of black market going on.
- So he told me that he would take me to this little village.
- And he's pretty sure that these particular farmers
- would take me in.
- And I think my aunt was very glad to let me go.
- She didn't hold me back and didn't tell me not to go.
- And so I followed him.
- And he took me to this village.
- We took a train or a bus.
- I don't recall.
- And when we arrived in this village, from the main road
- you could only see the steeplechase of the church.
- It was on an incline.
- And the people's farm where I was to go
- was all the way at the bottom near a stream.
- It was quite beautiful there.
- And when we arrived near that house,
- this gentleman told me to stay outside, that he would first
- have to talk to them.
- He wanted me to stay outside.
- Well, I stood outside.
- And it seemed like an eternity again when you went outside.
- But obviously, it might have been-- have been that long.
- And finally, they told me to come in.
- And the household-- this household
- was a grandmother, her son, and his wife, and a granddaughter.
- And the grandmother was really the head of the household.
- I mean, she was the-- she dictated everything, kindly,
- but what should be done, the work and everything else.
- And they referred to her as La Mémé.
- La Mémé, in French, is short for Grandmere.
- And so we refer to her as La Mémé.
- And she came over to me, and she said to me, La petit.
- She never called me by my name.
- She only always call me La petit.
- La petit, in French, means young one or little one.
- In this case, it must have been the young one.
- And she said to me, we'll take you in.
- The only thing you have to promise
- to go to church because no one in this house
- has never gone to church.
- First of all, it's bad luck.
- And also, nobody is to know that you're Jewish.
- So you have to follow the Catholic religion, which
- I agreed.
- And they took me in.
- And the gentleman left.
- He came back a few times in the weeks
- to come to get food on weekends.
- But eventually, he didn't come back.
- And I later found out-- later on found out
- that he had been deported with his family never to return.
- So I stayed with this family.
- I helped with the farm.
- They used to make fun of me because they
- used to call me "City Girl," because I wasn't used to it.
- As a matter of fact, there was a goose that
- used to pinch me all the time.
- She probably knew I was afraid of her.
- But they were very kind to me.
- They really were very kind.
- The grandmother was very stern, but a very kind woman.
- In the wintertime, she knitted me underwear
- made out of old wool that they recycled so I should be warm.
- And of course, I had no shoes, so they gave me
- a pair of wooden shoes like they were in Holland because that's
- what they wore in this village.
- But I was very concerned with my sister, of course,
- not knowing where she was.
- So one day a letter came.
- One day a letter came from a woman who
- had been a maid in the castle.
- How she got my address I'll never know.
- I don't know how she found me.
- There must be an explanation which escapes me at the moment.
- And they told me that my sister was staying in a small city,
- it's not so small, but a city called Arles
- in the South of France again.
- And I got the address of these people.
- And I told the farmers, I have to go get my sister.
- And they were very much against it.
- They were afraid for my safety.
- And I said, no, I have to go get my sister.
- So they went to the mayor, who gave me a false identity
- card with a real French name.
- I don't remember what the name was,
- but it was not Glicenstein, or "Glicensten,"
- as it was pronounced in France, but not a Jewish name,
- of course.
- It was dangerous.
- So I went to this--
- it was quite a trip again, back.
- And I arrived at this home.
- And in this house, there was the older mother
- and her daughter-in-law, whose husband was a prisoner of war.
- They were the only two women in this house.
- And when I arrived, Josette was in school.
- And by that time, Josette must have been five.
- And when I told the woman why I was here.
- She said, oh, I'm not giving you your sister.
- She was put at my charge.
- She's my responsibility.
- You're only a child yourself.
- I cannot do that.
- And I said, well, if you don't give me my sister,
- I'll stay here.
- I'm not going to be separated.
- My mother told me take care of my sister.
- And there's no way.
- Either I take her back with me to the village
- where I'm staying, or I'm going to stay here.
- You'll have to keep me too.
- So she told me to stay overnight.
- And that night I went to bed with the daughter-in-law.
- They didn't have that much room.
- So of course, when I saw Josette coming home from school,
- I don't have to tell you how we embraced
- and happy we were to see each other.
- She was a beautiful child.
- Shirley Temple had nothing over Josette, big blue eyes,
- little nose, curly hair.
- And so I went to sleep with--
- Josette had a little bed, and I slept in the same bed
- with the daughter-in-law, who comforted me.
- And-- because the older woman was quite stern and scared me.
- And she kept telling me don't worry.
- Everything will be all right.
- When we woke up the next morning, or when I woke up,
- the old woman was not at home.
- Josette went to school.
- And the daughter-in-law told me that her father-in-law was
- in the hospital and that the older
- woman had gone to visit him, that I should just stay.
- And she took me around the town.
- Arles is a beautiful historical town.
- So she took me to visit the town.
- And we went to pick up Josette in school.
- And when we came back, the old woman was back home.
- And she announced to me that I could have my sister.
- What she obviously did is my cousin was hiding someplace
- and probably went to my cousin.
- That's what I found out after the war, after the liberation.
- But at the time I didn't know that.
- And my cousin told her that it was OK,
- that I was a very responsible young lady
- and that it would be cruel not to let
- me take my sister because obviously, this woman could not
- take care of both of us.
- She was a poor woman, and she certainly
- couldn't have had me and my sister.
- So I took Josette.
- And went back up and across, and we ended up in the village,
- not without--
- we were-- our papers were checked in the train.
- Everybody in France has to have an identification card,
- especially at that time with the Germans.
- So the Germans, Gestapo, would very often go to the train
- and check people's papers.
- Because obviously, this woman could not
- take care of both of us.
- She was a poor woman and she certainly could not
- have had me and my sister.
- So I took Josette and went back up and across,
- and we ended up in the village, not without--
- our papers were checked in the train.
- Everybody in France has to have an identification card,
- especially at that time with the Germans.
- So the Germans, Gestapo, would very often go through the train
- and check people's papers.
- And I had a very French name on those papers.
- And this German SS looked at me and said, [GERMAN]..
- And I thought, oh my God, that's it.
- [GERMAN] means you are a Jewish, you're Jewish.
- And I thought he was going to arrest me, but he didn't.
- Josette and I made it back safely to the village.
- And the grandmother was so emotional
- for the first time in her life.
- She kept saying to me, oh little one,
- I never thought you would make it.
- I never thought you'd come back alive.
- I never thought-- and they were very happy to--
- that we were back.
- The little granddaughter was a year younger than Josette,
- so they became very good friends.
- Meanwhile in the village, the mayor
- lived in the nearby town, the largest nearby town
- called Clermont-Ferrand.
- But they had a castle in the near the village where
- I was hiding, where his whole family would spend the summer.
- And he knew about me.
- And I had no money, not a Franc to my name by that time.
- So the mayor suggested to the farmers
- that I should come for the summer
- and work as a maid in the castle.
- And so I did.
- And I had to speak to them at the third person.
- I don't know if you can understand that.
- Instead of saying, would you like me to do this,
- I would have to say, does Madame want me to do this.
- I mean, the French aristocracy at the time
- thought they were really superior and looked down
- on people and treated not people badly, but that
- second-class citizen.
- And of course, being a maid, that was no different.
- So I spent the whole summer there.
- I won't go into details.
- It was a long summer.
- Now you were about 15?
- I was about 15 at the time.
- I was hired as an [FRENCH].
- [FRENCH] as a maid of all--
- All purposes.
- --all purposes.
- Yes.
- From washing windows, to scrubbing floor, to ironing.
- And there was a cook besides me.
- So the cook strictly did the cooking
- because it was a very large family.
- So not only did I wash windows and scrub floors and whatever--
- I didn't do the laundry.
- They had a laundress for that, thank God,
- because I don't think I could have done it very well.
- But I had to serve them at the table and wear the uniform.
- At night I had to open their beds
- and, like you do in a hotel, open the bedspread.
- And on Sunday I was allowed to go--
- I had to go to mass, of course, on Sunday morning.
- And I had to serve lunch.
- And I only had a few hours until dinner time to go visit Josette
- at the farm.
- In this village, I had befriended
- a young girl, a young girl a little older than I--
- if I was 15, she might have been 18
- at the time-- and her mother, who lived in Clermont-Ferrand,
- in the large town nearby.
- And they used to come to visit their relatives on weekends,
- also to get food.
- And this girl and I, both being city girls, so to speak,
- had an affinity.
- And so we became very good friends.
- So when my job was finished at the farm--
- her name was Bernadette.
- Her brother was a priest, and I don't
- have to tell you how religious they were.
- I mean, you know.
- Bernadette and her mother told me that,
- when my job was finished, that I should come back and stay
- with them in Clermont-Ferrand, and they could find me
- a little job, where I could earn some money,
- and we would come home on weekend to see Josette.
- Josette wasn't too happy about that.
- But the idea of earning some money was very appealing to me.
- So I went back with this family.
- And they had a very nice apartment.
- But there was no heat during the war.
- So we all slept in the same bed in the winter to keep warm.
- They were very kind to me.
- And they shared their meager--
- Which year was that about?
- Well, it was 1943 and '44.
- Don't forget, we were liberated--
- the Americans debarked in 1944.
- So I would say, at that point, it was still 1944.
- When I remember those years, it was only two years,
- from 1942 till 1944, that we were liberated.
- Actually it was two years.
- And to me it was like an eternity.
- And in my mind, it still seems like an eternity.
- Well, at any rate, I stayed with these people.
- And they introduced me to this woman,
- who happened to be from Epinal, at one point,
- who owned a store, among many other stores that she owned,
- where you brought used clothes that would be--
- that you sell.
- You know, it was very common during the war
- to do that because it was very expensive or, first of all,
- we had even ration coupons to buy clothes.
- So and this store, people would bring their clothes.
- If we saw them, they would get a certain amount of money,
- and the store would make a percentage.
- And there was a manager in this store.
- And this woman gave me a job in her store.
- And she referred to me as Epinal because we
- both came from Epinal.
- And so I worked in the store on weekends-- not on weekends,
- only on Sunday, I would go back with Bernadette and her mother
- to the farm to visit Josette and go back on Sunday
- night to be ready to go to work on Monday.
- And so I stayed with these very, very wonderful people
- with whom I still correspond.
- Of course, my mother is dead, but Bernadette
- is still alive, and her daughter, of course,
- and her children.
- And I still correspond with the only living person
- in the farm, where I stayed, the daughter-in-law,
- who is a very old woman now.
- As a matter of fact, every year when I write,
- I'm always afraid that my letter is going to come back.
- So at any rate, the one morning--
- now we're in June of 1944.
- In the middle of the early morning,
- we heard people screaming and yelling and singing
- the French national anthem.
- And we opened the shutters.
- And we heard people yelling [FRENCH],, the Americans--
- This was D-day.
- The Americans had debarked.
- And as I said, there are many days in our lives
- that stand above all others in our mind
- forever, and certainly that was my day.
- Because right away I thought my parents
- would come back because I thought
- they were in a working camp.
- I never thought-- I didn't know anything
- about concentration camp.
- So they would be coming back.
- And I was extremely impatient to get back to Epinal.
- Epinal was in Eastern France, and when
- the Americans debarked, they didn't
- cross France with the breeze.
- They had to fight their way through and especially
- in Eastern France.
- But I decided that I had to go back with Josette in Epinal
- because when my parents were coming back from these working
- camps, they wouldn't find me where I was.
- And against everybody's advice, I decided to go back.
- And it was not an easy trip because there
- was a lot of bridges that had been blown,
- so you would go to a certain point with the train
- and then you had to be on foot and then end up in Paris.
- Did Josette go with you willingly?
- Oh, Josette was attached to me like glue--
- glued to me at all times.
- If I left Josette to go any place for a half hour,
- she was hysterical.
- What when you were working, and you only
- saw her over the weekend.
- On Sunday.
- Well, she was with the farmers, and they were kind to her.
- But she couldn't wait for Sunday to see me.
- And every time I left, she was hysterical crying.
- And they were good to her.
- These people were good people.
- They were very kind, good people.
- Was it difficult for you at times
- to feel that you were responsible for your younger--
- Excuse me.
- Was it difficult for you to feel you
- were responsible at all times for a younger sister.
- I-- those were with my mother's last words.
- I didn't fear it.
- I didn't-- I probably felt I didn't do as good a job as I
- should have.
- But I felt-- part of me was very mature, and part of me
- was the age I was.
- I had to go through so much that--
- and nobody babied me along the way.
- I mean, everybody-- I met a lot of kind people,
- but we were not exactly--
- this was not mother's love.
- First of all, I tried--
- I tried so hard to be always so good and so nice
- so people should like me.
- Because I felt that I was imposing in their home.
- So I tried very hard to always be the best I could be had.
- You had to be grateful at all times.
- At all times, and conduct myself in a certain manner.
- As a matter of fact, when I came to America,
- people used to say that I apologize for being alive.
- I was so polite.
- I tried so hard to be nice.
- But at any rate, I got back to Epinal.
- And of course, I went to the Collins home.
- And to Mama Marie's fear, they were still
- fighting back and forth.
- The Epinal was liberated the next day.
- But the Germans were too busy fighting the armed forces
- to worry about arresting me.
- And eventually, we were completely liberated.
- And then we found out about the concentration camps.
- Eventually the news came.
- And so I had heard that--
- now don't forget, I'm in Epinal, and it's
- about two and a half hours away from Paris
- by train, changing trains in Nancy.
- I had heard-- or I was told that the surviving concentration
- camp people were coming back and that they would be coming
- towards--
- Paris has several train stations.
- And they would be coming to [FRENCH],, which
- was the eastern station.
- And I told my Mama Marie I must go to Paris because I
- want to be at the station when my parents come back.
- I was convinced they would be coming back.
- And Mama Marie tried to dissuade me
- because she knew she probably--
- I didn't for sure that so many had been killed
- and in what manner they had been killed.
- And so she had-- oh, the neighbor across the street
- had family in Paris.
- And they got in touch with them, and the family took us in.
- And every day I would go to the train station waiting
- for the trains to arrive.
- And of course, the stations were full of people, the Red
- Cross and all kinds of people, newspaper people, everybody.
- And when they first came off the trains, of course,
- most of them were--
- could hardly walk.
- A lot of them were on stretcher.
- And the first convoy, they were-- not my parents
- were in there, so I figured they would
- be in the second or the third convoy.
- And finally, a woman from the Red Cross who had seen me--
- now, you have to picture me very shabbily
- dressed with my little sister by the hand, waiting.
- And I was convinced that my parents were so disfigured
- because they had age and they had lost so much weight,
- but they were in the convoy and I didn't recognize them.
- So this woman from the Red Cross took pity on us
- and approached me and told me not to come back.
- That there will be many, many more trains.
- And if my parents come back--
- she took my address where I stayed in Epinal,
- and that we would be--
- she would advise me personally to go back to--
- that was a horrible sight, I don't
- have to tell you, to see these people coming
- in there, a very bad sight.
- So I went back to Epinal.
- By then--
- What did you tell Josette?
- Josette was too little.
- Josette was-- I don't know.
- She was just contented to--
- I don't think she realized the atrocities she was seeing.
- And I told her what this woman--
- I still was hopeful.
- When this woman from the Red Cross told me that there would
- be many more convoys, and that there were people
- in the hospitals in Germany and in Holland and-- and they had
- dispersed all over the place, so I was still hopeful that
- eventually my parents would--
- Did she remember very much of her parents?
- Not at all.
- Not at all because, don't forget,
- my mother had placed her at this Mama Marie's home
- at a very young age.
- And so she had no--
- So it was more the idea of parents--
- Pictures that were-- you now.
- And so I went back to Epinal.
- I had a job at the time.
- I was working in an office that had
- to do with the cause of food ration
- cause I was making addition like that.
- I don't multiply too good, but I still
- know how to add because there were no adding machines
- in those days.
- And so my aunt in America, my mother's sister,
- who had escaped in 19-- she didn't escape.
- She left France, the one who lived in my home, the unmarried
- sister, had left France in 1939, before the war,
- to go to the World's Fair that was taking place in New York.
- And when the war broke out, she was
- unable to come back to France, which saved her life.
- My other end, who had lost her child and found her again,
- was able to flee from Free France through Spain, Portugal,
- and eventually she took a boat in Africa to America,
- where they had relatives.
- So they were in America at the time.
- My aunt, the unmarried aunt, Tante Regine, Aunt Regina,
- somehow I don't know how, through the Red Cross,
- or she remembered Mama Marie, found our whereabouts.
- Now I had two sets of family in America.
- Both my mother's sisters had lived in France and several
- cousins in Detroit that I had never met in my life but were
- also from my father's-- my mother's side.
- Then there was my father's family,
- which consisted of two sisters, two brothers,
- and there had been other brothers that had died also.
- And so I didn't know them at all.
- They were quite well to do, my father's
- family in this country.
- So my aunt, who was surviving, but they were not
- in America for a long time.
- They were surviving.
- It was decided that my father's family
- would make the affidavits for Josette and I
- to come to America.
- But the letters that I received from my aunt, Tante Regine,
- in France were that I was going to live with her.
- Well, in the meantime--
- you didn't get your visas immediately--
- I left Epinal to go--
- some friends of my parents had come to Epinal
- and advised me to come to Paris and stay
- with them for a short time so I would be near the American
- Embassy in order to obtain my papers.
- I had the affidavits, but with the affidavit--
- now, the American Embassy is located in a very beautiful
- place, in [FRENCH].
- And the lines were around the block.
- And every day I would go there with Josette, and by the time
- I got there, it was too late.
- The people I was staying with were not
- too happy to have two added boarders.
- So they looked into a home for Josette and I.
- And in those days, they had homes
- for children who had lost their parents, to house them and take
- care of them until they would be sent with relatives
- to America or to Israel or whatever the case may be.
- So we were placed in that home.
- But I, being too old to be a child--
- I was by then 16--
- I worked in the office.
- And then after a while, the doctor took a liking to me.
- There was a doctor in this home.
- And he asked the director of the home
- to let me help him with the children in the infirmary,
- which I did.
- And Josette was one of the children.
- And at night, besides all my other duties,
- I would help with the children, the younger children
- especially, to help them prepare for bed.
- And of course, Josette was very happy about that
- because I could kiss her goodnight every night.
- And then I stayed in that home for quite a while.
- And then one day on weekends, or some day during the week,
- I would go back to Paris trying to go to the embassy
- to get my papers.
- And that particular weekend, I took Josette with me,
- for some reason.
- And we stayed for a few days in town.
- And that Monday, I went to the embassy.
- And again when my turn came, it was too late.
- The doors were closing.
- And I got hysterical crying.
- This man approached me, an American man
- who worked at the embassy, and asked me why I was crying.
- And I told him.
- And he spoke a very--
- I mean, I didn't speak English.
- He spoke French to me.
- And he said to me, come back tomorrow
- at 9 o'clock in the morning.
- I'll take care of you and your sister.
- Well, of course, I didn't believe him
- because I used to go there 6 o'clock in the morning
- in order to be on line.
- But I went online.
- At 9 o'clock in the morning, he went
- looking for me on the line.
- And he told me, I told you told you only to come at 9:00,
- that I was going to take care of you.
- Well, he took me in.
- He obviously was a very high-ranking official
- at the embassy because, to make a story short,
- I walked out with my visas to come to America.
- And that was August of 1945.
- Yeah-- or the end of August of 1945.
- It was not easy to get passage to come to America.
- But I came by plane.
- And this was quite an event for me.
- I mean, people didn't exactly travel by plane.
- And the reason I came by plane is
- because I couldn't get a passage on the ship.
- With Josette?
- With Josette.
- Josette never left my side.
- With Josette.
- And April 15, 1946, Josette and I arrived in New York.
- It was Passover night, the first--
- I believe it was the first night of Passover.
- And I'm not going to big--
- I spoke for a long time now.
- I'm not going to go into big detail.
- But Cinderella story, I'll only--
- it's a fairy tale, because ours was not a Cinderella story.
- The relatives were not that kind to us.
- And to make it very simple, after three
- or four months, my sister--
- I went to work, of course, in the factory, which was fine.
- Working was fine.
- But Josette ended up in an orphanage at the age of seven.
- It was seven-- I became 18 April 28, so I was 18.
- You know, my birthday was celebrated
- in the United States.
- But Josette ended up in an orphanage and eventually,
- in foster homes.
- And until I got married, which was when I was 22--
- if God came down and asked me that I
- would have to relieve the four years that I spent single
- in this country or the four years of war,
- I would pick the four years of war
- because I found solidarity in France.
- But the four years here were very, very traumatic.
- So when you got married, you were able to get Josette back?
- Oh, well, yes.
- When I got married, Josette came to stay.
- What did it do to Josette?
- Well, Josette is scheduled, I think,
- to tell her story here eventually, in April.
- I don't have to tell you that it left--
- we, all of us hidden children, children that survive,
- including Josette and myself, have our scars
- that are not completely closed.
- Some of us can live with it better than others.
- I think that I'm--
- I told Josette recently that I'm extremely proud of her.
- And she told me if somebody gave me $1 million
- they couldn't have made me happier.
- I waited a long time for you to tell me that.
- I always felt that I didn't do enough for Josette,
- and she always felt she didn't live up to my expectation.
- And finally I told her this only recently, I'm so proud of you.
- Whatever you did, you did it on your own.
- You never asked anybody for anything.
- And so we survived.
- I survived.
- And it's important, I think that's why I'm here today,
- for the next generations to know what happened to all of us,
- to our children.
- And we hope that all my descendants
- and all the descendants of all the people
- will have a better life than we did.
- Yes.
- And that's why you wanted to bear witness.
- It was a good reason, that it not be forgotten
- and maybe not happen again.
- Well, absolutely.
- My biggest regret, I have to tell you,
- that when I came on this plane, Josette slept most of the trip.
- We stopped in Scotland in Gander airport and Newfoundland,
- but in between Josette was sleeping.
- And I was in between both countries.
- I had left a country where I had a life with my parents.
- And I was going to a new country, where I had a hope.
- I mean, strangers had been so good to me,
- I was hoping that the relatives also
- would be better than strangers.
- And I tried to make sense of what had happened,
- and I thought that the world had learned their lesson.
- But to my deepest regret, at this time of my life,
- I'm very unhappy to see that the world did not
- learn their lesson.
- And so it was all in vain.
- They didn't learn their lesson.
- So hopefully the next generation will.
- Did you talk to your children about it?
- Well, to be honest with you, at the beginning,
- we were young when we arrived.
- We were not only children who had lost our parents,
- and I had to adjust to that.
- We were also immigrants, and we had
- to adjust to being immigrants and to adjust to a new country.
- And so for a long time, I didn't talk about it.
- First of all, my relatives when I came here
- didn't ask questions.
- They didn't want to know.
- One aunt said to me, the youngest aunt
- said don't tell me.
- I suffered more than you.
- The other aunt said, don't tell me.
- I'll get a migraine headache.
- And on my father's side, his sister said,
- the reason they killed your father and mother,
- it's their fault because your father
- didn't want to come to America.
- He liked a French wine too much.
- And that was the end of it.
- Nobody wanted to know anything.
- That's obviously why I had to be compelled
- to write a book because it was probably choking me.
- I didn't talk about it for a long time.
- Don't your own children know?
- No.
- They knew my parents were deported,
- and they went to concentration camp, and they had died,
- and that I took care of Josette because I was still taking care
- of Josette, but no big detail.
- Only when I wrote this book, even Josette said to me,
- I am so glad you wrote this book because now I
- know where I belong.
- We should have the book in our--
- Pick up your book and show them the front.
- Well, this book was published 11 years ago.
- That's the title, my mother's last word,
- "Take Care of Josette."
- And if you could see it, there's a picture of Josette
- when she was four years old.
- So we have both sides of the book, right?
- Show me the cover again.
- Oh, excuse me.
- Is it close enough?
- You had to be such a strong person throughout the war.
- I was as strong as everybody else.
- I don't think I was.
- I think that I owe this to my parents.
- If you think I was strong, I was raised by parents
- that education was important, behaving well--
- my mother must have had a premonition that she would
- die young because she always used to say to me,
- I want you to behave properly because when
- I'm no longer here, I want people to like you.
- And so I had a feeling she had a premonition
- that she would die young.
- So I was raised in a certain manner, which
- gave me the ammunition to be able to survive, I suppose.
- Do you still feel you have to be that way?
- Well, yes.
- I don't feel that.
- But we still-- all the love that we didn't get from parents,
- we still want it today, that love that's been missing.
- Somebody told me recently that it's important
- for the growth of the child, whether they're boy or a girl,
- is to spend time with their parents at different level.
- I still remember what my parents told me at a certain--
- when I was 14.
- But there was nothing, no guidance and nothing
- after that.
- But you have children of your own.
- Oh, of course, I have two children.
- How old are they?
- I have a son that's 41 years old,
- and a daughter that just celebrated her 34th birthday.
- And soon seven grandchildren-- six so far.
- From the two?
- Yes.
- And the oldest one is 18.
- That certainly is an achievement.
- Well, I-- I always said, I was arrested with my parents.
- Why wasn't I taken with them?
- So I consider my life a miracle.
- So I told my children and now I tell my grandchildren
- that their life is a miracle.
- And maybe there's a purpose.
- Maybe one of these children will do something
- for humanity or something, at least I hope they--
- that they turn out to be good people.
- There's also, in spite of everything,
- continuity because of this.
- And I think that's, perhaps, the meaning of it all.
- Well, obviously, yes.
- That's true.
- Oh, my husb-- [FRENCH]
- [FRENCH]
Overview
- Interviewee
- Jacqueline Wolf
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
1 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives.
- Personal Name
- Wolf, Jacqueline.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received a copy of the interview from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History Branch
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:10:35
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn520348
Additional Resources
Download & Licensing
- Request Copy
- See Rights and Restrictions
- Terms of Use
- This record is digitized but cannot be downloaded online.
In-Person Research
- Available for Research
- Plan a Research Visit