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Oral history interview with Irving Rubinoff

Oral History | Digitized | RG Number: RG-50.092.0002

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    Oral history interview with Irving Rubinoff
    Transcript
    --the 1st, 1986.
    May I please have your full name?
    Irving Rubinoff.
    This is the American name.
    And what was the other name?
    The other one was Isaac Rubacha in other words, R-U-B-A-C-H-A.
    And your address?
    This address?
    5347 East 49th Street.
    Brooklyn, New York.
    Your zip code?
    11234.
    Your telephone number, 251-2323.
    And when were you born?
    I was born in 1924, December 5, 1924.
    And where were you born?
    I was born then in Pinsk, Poland.
    And your father's name?
    Mandel.
    That is a Jewish, Yiddish name.
    And your mother's name?
    Rachel.
    And what was her maiden name?
    Her maiden name?
    Tokenich
    Tokenich?
    And what did your father do?
    My father done, in other words, he used to bring to the ship,
    and from the ship.
    In other words, a ship like they call here--
    what do you call it?
    A ship worker.
    And that was in the city of Pinsk?
    That's in the city of Pinsk, yeah.
    OK.
    And did you have any brothers or sisters?
    Yes one sister and two brothers.
    And their names?
    Their names, which one you want?
    All of them, the sister--
    All right, the one brother, I had an older brother.
    He was Hanoch.
    And when was he born?
    He was born in 1921.
    OK and an older sister also, she was born in 1919.
    What was her name?
    Her name is Chaya.
    And I had a younger brother, Yidel.
    That's what they called him, a younger brother.
    What year was he born?
    He was born in 1930 or '32, something like that,
    if I remember.
    OK.
    Could you tell me was your family a religious family?
    Well, it was a good family for me.
    Yes.
    I don't know about someone else.
    Did they observe Shabbos?
    Oh, yeah.
    That was religious.
    In that time it was always religious,
    every Saturday it was closed.
    It's just like here, what do you call up here in Borough Park.
    It's closed.
    Saturday it's closed.
    And did you go to--
    He was a religious man.
    Let's put it this way.
    Did you go to cheder?
    Yeah.
    Was it a Hasidic cheder?
    Talmud Torah.
    Talmud Torah.
    Talmud Torah was up there just like a high school,
    just like a yeshiva here where they call the yeshiva.
    Did you have any public school studies?
    Oh, yes.
    I had.
    That's the only school I did go to.
    What, the secular school, where you
    learned in the Polish school?
    Right.
    That was another what--
    they taught Polish, and they taught Hebrew.
    After school or in the same school
    In the same time.
    Oh, so it was like a Jewish Polish school?
    It's a Jewish school.
    It's Talmud Torah.
    That's what they called it.
    But they had two hours of Polish.
    And then when the Russians took over, of course,
    it was a different story.
    Well before, when you were still a young child,
    did you have any non-Jews as friends,
    or were most of your friends Jewish?
    Jewish, as far as I know.
    It was a Jewish city.
    And did you belong to any youth groups, any clubs?
    Well, I didn't belong at that time.
    I was too young to belong.
    OK, so when the war broke out, what were you doing in '39?
    In '39, the Russians took over our part.
    So how did your life change?
    And the change was better than it was.
    Why?
    Why?
    Because I had the opportunity to go to some other schools.
    We weren't big enough to pay for schools, for some other schools
    that we couldn't afford.
    But I tell you, we did go to schools that we could afford,
    without money.
    My father was working for the government in that time.
    And of course, when they started the ghetto,
    if you have any question, I'll answer you.
    OK, so let's just go back to when the communists came in.
    Well before that, before the communists came, did you
    experience antisemitism in Pinsk?
    Oh, yeah.
    Of course.
    They wouldn't let-- if they go by you on the street,
    the dogs-- they saw a Jew, you used to go by in the street,
    they used to let out the dogs.
    And when the communists came that changed?
    That a little bit changed, of course.
    Did you have to join a communist youth group?
    No.
    I didn't have to do it.
    And I didn't do it.
    You just benefited from the schooling.
    That's all, right.
    And what kind--
    Not only myself, but the rest of it done the same way.
    In other words, up there you had to go to school, if you wanted
    or you don't want.
    Or you-- they give you a job, or you're
    going to school, one or the other.
    You can't sit around.
    And did they--
    In other words, it's dictatorship.
    You have to do or you don't have to.
    Did they try and take your father for the war,
    for the army?
    Oh, no.
    This is not what--
    you're talking about at school, right?
    Yes, but I'm just wondering whether they tried to-- did
    you know if the communists were taking any Jews away
    from the town?
    No.
    In that time the Communist started--
    because they saw that it was poor, poor families up there,
    Jewish families all poor.
    OK.
    So when did the war really start for you?
    Well, it started for me when the ghetto started.
    When was that?
    That was in 1941.
    And they took away my father and my mother
    and my brothers, only me, my sister, and my younger brothers
    were there.
    Who took them away?
    The Germans.
    OK, this was--
    And I don't know, I still don't know where they are.
    They are in camp.
    But they got out there, and they told
    me to hide in a chimney, which I did, until they went out.
    And I went until they weren't over there.
    And then at night, I ran out from the chimney, myself.
    They couldn't recognize me.
    And that's how I got into the army, the Red Army.
    Let's back up a little bit.
    What was it like in your town when the Germans attacked
    the Russians?
    Do you remember what was happening?
    What happened to the Russians--
    As soon as the Germans came in, it was a Jewish city.
    Let's put it this way.
    Pinsk was a Jewish city, just like Borough Park here.
    As soon as they came in, they started to make the ghettos.
    Where was the ghetto in your town?
    It was on Brisk, on Brisk Street.
    Which I would say Brisk Street was one.
    There was two.
    Two big ones.
    And then they start to send out, in other words
    send away, which I didn't know where I was.
    All I know is the ghetto where I was.
    They took away my father and my mother and the children
    with them.
    The only one that was with me is my sister and my younger
    brother.
    How did they find your parents?
    Oh they found them because they took all of the Jews away.
    They took all of the Jews away.
    When was that action?
    What do you remember when that action was?
    It was in 1941, but do you remember what time of year
    it was?
    Oh, that was the last of the--
    let's see it was in autumn, as in September, October,
    something like that.
    Was there any kind of organized Jewish life in the ghetto
    before they took the Jews away?
    I don't know.
    I was in ghetto.
    And I was in ghetto two days only.
    And my father and mother told me to hide somewhere, with pigs.
    I was between the two pigs.
    And through the pigs, I went up in the chimney.
    And from the chimney I ran out.
    And I don't know where they are, in what camps they are killed,
    in what camps they are.
    I know they took them away from the camp to kill them.
    There is no doubt about that.
    Whether it's in Treblinka, or that when I came to Germany,
    I was looking for the cards.
    They wouldn't let me look at it.
    How long were the Germans in your town
    before they made the ghetto?
    They were about two months.
    And did they have any kinds of regulations against the Jews
    during those two months?
    Yeah, because the Polish, they were Polacks up there,
    they were anti-Semitic, what do would you call it?
    Anti-Jewish movement.
    And they know where the--
    they must have been trying to hide or to run away.
    But then, they told the Germans where they
    were hiding and everything.
    That's how they got into the--
    So what kinds of rules did they make against the Jews?
    Did you have to wear a yellow star?
    Oh, yeah.
    This is when I was in ghetto.
    For those two days?
    Yeah.
    You had to put on a yellow star?
    Right.
    Was your father able to work?
    No, they took him away, men separate
    and women separate in that time.
    I was only two days up there.
    But before they made the ghetto, during those two months.
    Yeah?
    Was your father allowed to go to work?
    Oh, I'd say, yes.
    Were you allowed to go to school?
    No.
    Did the Germans ever come and kill Jews before the ghetto?
    Yeah.
    Before the ghetto?
    Well, they killed them, whomever they caught on the streets.
    Did you see them killing Jews on the street?
    Yeah.
    That's what came to my mind many times.
    And you were a young boy.
    You were a young man.
    I was only 14.
    What did you think?
    Well, I thought it was a miserable thing.
    And that's why I asked my parents what to do.
    And they advised me now to go to hide between the pigs,
    and then through the chimney overnight.
    Why didn't they try to hide?
    Well, they tried but they wouldn't let them.
    They tried to go out.
    They wouldn't let them.
    They all were people already in that time.
    And your brother?
    Well, my brother was with them too.
    And he couldn't get out.
    Yidel, the little--
    And I did.
    The little boy, oh.
    The little boy, and then they got caught after I was.
    I was the only one that's left from the whole family.
    How did they catch the little boy?
    Oh, he-- they catch because some from the villages,
    they knew them.
    They knew them and the sister.
    My sister they knew them too.
    And they caught them.
    And they told the Germans where they are.
    And they caught them, and they shipped them out.
    So when they took your parents and your brother away,
    you hid with the--
    with your--
    Yeah, I hid with them.
    You took them out and put them in places?
    No, I hid in a chimney.
    I don't know.
    They couldn't go in the chimney with me.
    How did they find their places to hide?
    Well they tried to hide.
    And what about the other Jews in Pinsk?
    They were together during the--
    my little brother and sister, as I was saying,
    they were hiding between the pigs.
    I was already in the chimney.
    So what did you do when you came down from the chimney?
    Well, I had an overnight, and then I
    slipped all the way down there to the villages, two
    or three villages.
    And I went over to the Russians.
    Did your father tell you to do that?
    He didn't tell me to do it, but he didn't have no other choice.
    He didn't have no other choice.
    He knew what was going to be with him or with them.
    I didn't know myself either.
    I was young.
    How did I know?
    I escaped whenever I could.
    Was that chimney inside the ghetto?
    That was inside the ghetto.
    Did you hear them getting the Jews together?
    Yeah.
    It was two days I was up there in the--
    And for those two days you heard them taking out--
    Oh, yeah.
    There was a ghetto already in they
    start to ship out by the trains where the train was.
    And what camp was it?
    I don't know.
    But I know he was killed.
    They were killed.
    So you made your way to the Russians.
    And then what happened?
    And then, in the beginning they gave me an education
    for some kind of a--
    they gave me education.
    Where was that?
    Was in Novosibirsk.
    They shipped me over to Novosibirsk.
    I was young.
    I was 14, 15 years old.
    They shipped me to Novosibirsk.
    This is near Siberia.
    Now, Novosibirsk if you take a look up there, it's up there.
    Were you with other Jews?
    Well, I was with six other ones.
    I think with three other ones.
    And I have them with me in my pocket.
    I'll never forget that.
    Yeah, two others.
    You're in the middle?
    No.
    Oh, I know.
    You're on the right.
    That's where you are.
    Here.
    I don't know--
    OK.
    This is after the war now.
    The picture is after the war.
    So they were young men, young Jewish men who also escaped.
    Also escaped, and we came together
    to look for our parents and for our families.
    So you met them in Siberia.
    And they educated you?
    They educated me, and sent me to the army.
    Where did you live?
    I lived in Barnaul, Novosibirsk and Barnaul.
    I didn't get the second on.
    Novosibirsk and Barnaul.
    But did you live in a dormitory?
    Did you live in a house with people?
    No, in a house, not what was about 10 or 12 people.
    And these people fed you?
    Well, I was only three months up there.
    And then they sent me over to the front.
    When you're 15 years old, they sent you out.
    16, I was almost 16 at that time.
    And in this--
    Almost 16.
    Did they train you in firearms at this school?
    Oh, yeah.
    Yeah, what I got.
    After they trained me, here what I got.
    One, two.
    That was in training or that was in the war?
    That was in the war, right after that, and here on this side
    it was.
    OK, so which front were you fighting on?
    I know the Russian front, but where?
    I was fighting on the Russian front against the Germans.
    Where were you stationed?
    Oh, where was I was stationed?
    I was stationed in Bialystok in at that time.
    This is when the--
    And which part of the army were you with, your unit?
    Do you remember the name of it?
    Yes, if I tell you this is a Russian name.
    Just say it slowly and clearly.
    It's a Russian name.
    This is [SPEAKING RUSSIAN] Can you hear me?
    Oh, [RUSSIAN] and [RUSSIAN] this is the second, in other words,
    [RUSSIAN].
    And what was your commander's name?
    My commander's name was also a Jewish, let's put it this way,
    he was Jewish too.
    And what was his name?
    That's why they sent everybody in front,
    so they can get killed.
    They didn't care.
    They didn't send their own Russians either.
    There are Russians up there also,
    Russians and of course different ones.
    And they were-- you asked me the names of the--
    The name of the commander?
    Oh, the name of the commander.
    Oh that was Misha.
    Misha.
    Misha?
    Yeah.
    That's all we know about it.
    Did you do his last name?
    Yeah.
    What was his last name?
    Raitoff.
    Misha Raitoff.
    OK.
    So excuse me.
    You were engaged in active combat.
    You were fighting?
    That's right with the Germans.
    and then they started in other words
    to push us back to the Russian, to the Russian frontiers,
    as much as they can.
    Which I came and I was wounded.
    They said that I'm about 50 miles from the--
    50 or 60 miles from the--
    what do you call it?
    The border, another words from the fighting border.
    In a hospital.
    That the Russian doctor removed the bullets from me.
    And after this because they shipped me back to the army,
    I was about 2, 2 and 1/2 years in the army.
    When I came back after the war, first,
    I asked them if I can, as you can see,
    if I can see my hometown, if anybody was left over.
    But nobody was there.
    We just came together with them, all three of us.
    What are their names in the picture?
    One is Israel.
    That's Israel.
    And the other is Misha, which also is a Jewish--
    Are they alive, these two men?
    No, I don't know.
    That I don't know.
    I couldn't tell you.
    How old were you when you were wounded?
    I was 18, 17 or 18, something like that, 17.
    Did you ever fight with the partisans in the forests?
    The partisans, no.
    Partisans, I didn't have anything to do with that.
    The partisans shipped me over to the Russians.
    They shipped me to the Russians.
    The partisans shipped you to the Russians?
    Right.
    How did they find you?
    Well when I-- from the chimney, when I ran out.
    I ran out, and they told me to the villages.
    Those were the partisans?
    Right.
    The partisans were Russian partisans.
    When you were fighting, did you hear--
    did you ever meet any Jews who told you what the Germans were
    doing to the Jews?
    Yeah.
    They told me, but what can-- what could I do?
    Where did you meet them, under what circumstances would you
    find them?
    Well, I found them in the army.
    That's all I could find.
    Oh, you mean other Russian soldiers who were Jewish?
    Yeah.
    And when the war was over did you--
    Like those from the same--
    from the same picture that we came together.
    Did you ever liberate any camps where there
    were Jews, labor camps, or--
    As I say, I tried to be in that time, I was in the hospital.
    And they sent me to the army.
    From the army, they sent me back to the hospital
    again, because I couldn't walk in that time.
    The other foot is the same thing.
    And for this the bullet also riddled through.
    And when I was told that the Germans are pushing back,
    the Russians back all the way to as far as in that time was--
    what was the border?
    I forgot now the border.
    Where they pushed back the Russians, now General Zhukov,
    I was in his army, with General Zhukov.
    They started to push back, the Germans back.
    That's how we came together.
    And I asked for leave to see if any one of the family is left.
    All I saw is--
    but I'll not say nothing.
    No, what did you see?
    No.
    Was it in Pinsk that you saw it?
    That's from the ghettos.
    Did you see bodies?
    Not bodies, but I saw already the bodies I saw in the camp.
    Which camp?
    Camp, when they liberated, after this,
    when they gave me the leave, I thought
    I'm going to find somehow the parents, or the kids,
    or someone, or my sisters in the camp.
    But I saw only bodies.
    Where were the bodies?
    The bodies were in Treblinka.
    You saw Treblinka after the war?
    After the war, yeah.
    After the war.
    OK.
    I got very sick.
    OK.
    They probably, in other words, they
    were in Treblinka or some other camp.
    How did you know go to Treblinka?
    Who told you to go there?
    How did you know what was there?
    Well, they told me that a lot of Jews, in other words,
    they told me.
    So I happened to go with them, all three of us
    went to see if there's any left.
    There are some of them left.
    Yeah, but bad shape.
    OK.
    Some of them--
    You drove to the camp?
    No.
    You walked to the camp.
    To the camp, I walked.
    What was it like?
    What was the physical surrounding
    like when you were walking?
    Please don't ask me that.
    I couldn't tell you.
    Even if I know, I couldn't tell you.
    If I tell you, you wouldn't sleep all night.
    So you were walking towards the camp.
    Was the camp near any towns?
    The camp was outside the town.
    Was it near factories?
    Was it built up?
    Was it in the forest?
    It was like a factory, a human death factory.
    That's all.
    That's all it was.
    So you walked inside, and did you see--
    was there barbed wire?
    Oh, please.
    Please.
    Was the camp surrounded with barbed wire?
    Yeah.
    That was all the way around the death camp.
    How big was it?
    Was it very large?
    Oh, that was very large.
    That was one of the five camps.
    And did you see the building where the people lived.
    I can't understand that where they put the bodies.
    Or even if even if they--
    I couldn't understand since, because we
    were talking about where do they put so many bodies, so many
    6 million Jews up there in all five camps.
    Where did they put the bodies?
    What did they do with them?
    All right.
    They burned some of them.
    But not all of them.
    I don't believe all of them they burned all of them.
    Did you see the ovens in Treblinka?
    In Treblinka, there were two.
    You saw them?
    Yeah.
    That was after the war now.
    I did see, yeah.
    Because I went after to see if anybody was left.
    Were there any people who were left alive in Treblinka?
    Some of them, yeah.
    Did you speak to--
    Russians, Russian Jews.
    Did you speak to them?
    Yeah, but they couldn't even speak.
    They were in hunger.
    When they found out that you were Jewish--
    It doesn't make any difference.
    They couldn't speak, because they were so hungry,
    as much as we wouldn't bring something to eat them,
    they were hungry.
    They couldn't even speak, until about two
    or three months later, maybe they
    start to speak a little bit.
    Were there any Nazis left in the camp?
    Plenty of Nazis.
    In the camp.
    In the camp.
    In the camp, and outside the camp.
    They found themselves, in other words, as army,
    they were in the army.
    But they were regular Nazis, SS.
    In the camp.
    But the Russians, they got them.
    And the US got them.
    Were there a lot of dead bodies in Treblinka?
    I don't know.
    I didn't see how many.
    Did you see dead people in Treblinka?
    All I see is the death factories, no not after that.
    You didn't see any people who were dead?
    No.
    You just saw where they put the dead people?
    Right.
    And what did the people who were living look like?
    They looked awful.
    They looked worse than dead ones to me.
    And were the Russian--
    That's why I say they couldn't speak.
    They couldn't breathe some of them.
    Did the Russian army treat them?
    Did they take care of them?
    No.
    Yeah, come on in.
    Come on in.
    Did the Russian army take care of them?
    Did the Russian army bring in doctors?
    Well, they were looking for the SS.
    That's all they were looking for, the Nazis.
    And for the rest of them, they took care whatever they could.
    There are lots of reports about Russian soldiers raping women.
    I don't know.
    I don't know.
    I don't know.
    I couldn't tell you.
    You didn't see any of that?
    I don't know.
    Any of your comrades?
    Maybe it was.
    Maybe it wasn't.
    I wouldn't say that.
    It's possible.
    OK.
    I would say, but I didn't see.
    Things I didn't see, I don't say.
    OK.
    So after you were in Treblinka, what did you do?
    Well, I just came back to--
    and I got married.
    And I tell the wife, don't say anything.
    I want to run away from here, from the Russian army.
    Wait a second.
    Where did you get married?
    When after in the Pinsk.
    Oh, you returned to Pinsk?
    Right.
    I returned to see if there is anyone left.
    And there you found your wife?
    Found my wife.
    Did you know her from before the war?
    No I was young.
    She was from Lenin.
    This is about 40 miles from Pinsk.
    Don't forget, Pinsk was a big city,
    but it's only 30,000 people.
    That's all.
    38,000, 38,000.
    Did you settle in Pinsk?
    No we settled only for about a few months.
    And then I tried to run away from the army, which I did.
    How did you do that?
    Very simple they said some of the--
    me and the wife and I were hiding in one of the--
    what do you call it?
    In a freight train.
    That's why it's hard for me to say, in a freight train.
    We walked over there, walked over the--
    they did not know in Germany.
    And how did you declare yourself in Germany?
    You just showed up?
    In Germany, I showed up and I got some different clothes.
    And they had the refugee camps.
    They made refugee camps.
    And that was whoever got left over from the camps
    from all kinds of the different camps, from the death camps,
    and whoever got left over from some other camps they
    made refugee camps.
    So we were up there in the refugee camps for almost three
    years.
    Which camp were you in?
    Lampertheim.
    Lampertheim.
    - "Lumpenteim?"
    Lampertheim.
    Lampertheim.
    Yeah.
    This is near Frankfurt, Germany, on the US side.
    So when you registered and they asked you where were you,
    what did you say?
    Where was I?
    Who asked me?
    Oh, you mean you just lived there
    and you didn't register for anything?
    No.
    Nobody else did.
    How did you receive food and clothes?
    They gave.
    And nobody ever asked you what camp you were in?
    No.
    Of course, they asked.
    And what did you say?
    Well, I had to lie to them.
    Of course, but I know that.
    That I know.
    I had to lie to them.
    So what did you say?
    Otherwise they would have shipped me back.
    I know.
    So what did you tell them?
    Well, I told them that I was in Germany and that's all.
    They accepted me, me and my wife.
    Otherwise, they wouldn't take me, they would ship me back.
    Right.
    So all you had to do was just tell them you were in Germany?
    That's right.
    Did they ask you were where you were born?
    Oh, yeah.
    They asked me where I was born.
    Yes, I told them.
    And the way I told you, which I wasn't lying at that time.
    That was the truth, and what year.
    And in '49, because when they start to register for the US,
    then we registered.
    What was it like during those three years in the camp?
    Well, it wasn't too good.
    Let's put it this way.
    They gave work.
    Whoever didn't work, didn't eat.
    That's the way it was.
    In the camp at that time, we went over.
    Then the US shipped in quite a few of packages with food.
    That's the time we start to live on it good.
    And you stayed in the camp the whole time?
    Yeah, after three years.
    Was the camp run by the United States,
    but did the inmates inside the camp, the Jews in the camp--
    Yeah, they were wild.
    Let's put it this way.
    They were wild.
    They're just like wild animals.
    Explain yourself.
    Well, one was pushing the other for a piece of bread.
    Because they were hungry.
    We were hungry, all of us.
    And one didn't know the other.
    And one, if we get a== let's say a--
    to go to a place or somewhere, we couldn't go.
    Because they were wild.
    It's just like not normal people, not normal most of it.
    Were there any schools set up?
    Were there any children there?
    Oh, there were children probably after the war, yeah.
    They used to came over.
    Yeah.
    And quite a few came over from the Russian border
    too, quite a few.
    How did they manage that?
    Oh, the same as I did.
    Do you think--
    They run away from the communism.
    Do you think that the United States, the people there,
    were aware that the Russians were coming?
    Oh, of course.
    That's why they kept the camp.
    This was a UN, a United States camp already.
    It was Mannheim.
    This is near Frankfurt, Germany.
    So how did you get into the United States?
    Did you have relatives here who sponsored you?
    Yeah, no.
    The relatives, I wrote to them and they wouldn't answer me.
    I had relatives up here, not only up here in the United
    States, but up here in New York.
    Let's put this way, in Brooklyn also.
    When I-- when we registered, I registered for US.
    There's no doubt about that.
    But it took about three months until the US registered.
    And three months later, on General Howze
    I remember the ship.
    I'll never forget that General Howze.
    What was it?
    Howze took us over.
    Yeah.
    That was--
    The name of the ship.
    OK.
    How long did it take?
    How long was the ride on the ship?
    Oh, that was eight days.
    Yeah, it was quite a ride.
    Did you have any children?
    At that time, one.
    What was the name of the child?
    Ella.
    Ella.
    Ella?
    And when was she born.
    She was born in the camp.
    In '46.
    There she is right there.
    And when did you come to this-- this country?
    No.
    No let's see-- which one?
    This one?
    This one.
    That's Ella I think at the--
    Oh, did I?
    No.
    It's OK.
    You're attached.
    Yeah.
    So you just came in on your own?
    You didn't need a relative to sign for you?
    The relative didn't want me over here.
    Not only me, but even the family.
    They were afraid they're going to have to, in other words,
    hold on--
    I don't want to say much.
    You probably understand what I'm talking about.
    So when we came over here, they gave us a--
    they shipped so many families to each for the cities.
    Where did you go?
    We went to Troy, New York.
    They shipped us to Troy, New York, six families.
    What did the Jewish community in Troy, New York do with you?
    Oh, they gave us to eat.
    They gave us a place to sleep.
    And they tried to give a job.
    So what kind of a job did they give you?
    Well, in the beginning, I took a job wherever they give me.
    I was satisfied.
    But it didn't work out because he made fun out of me.
    Let's put it this way.
    No, I'll be honest with you.
    A Jew, he made fun out of me in front of the Christians.
    He made fun out of me.
    I came home every night.
    I used to cry, believe me.
    So they, said we'll find you another job.
    They found another job.
    And I worked almost up till '67, almost 15 or 16 years.
    Doing what?
    I done mechanical work.
    And the Jewish community was constantly--
    No, they didn't support me in that time.
    When I was working they didn't support me.
    But when you had to switch your job,
    they helped you find another?
    Oh, yeah.
    So it was really, you were for a while,
    you were the responsibility of the Jewish community?
    Oh, yeah.
    Of course.
    They took care of you.
    Oh, yes.
    It's the same right now.
    Right here, Jewish community.
    You felt as if you were being taken care of well by them?
    Yeah.
    I can't complain.
    OK.
    And did you have other children?
    Yes.
    Their names?
    Their name is Rachel.
    And what year was she born?
    She was born in Rach--
    you have your--
    '55.
    Any other children?
    Yeah.
    Right there sitting on the floor.
    What's his name?
    Solomon.
    And what year was he born in?
    '58.
    OK, and what's your wife's name?
    Sol's picture is up there, I think on his--
    Your wife's name?
    Freida.
    And what year were you married?
    In '56, in '55, almost--
    '46.
    '46, yeah.
    Excuse me for saying.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Your kids might wonder.
    That's right.
    All right.
    Were you married by a rabbi?
    No.
    I tell you, just walk in and say it's
    just like here in our church.
    And not by a rabbi, no.
    There's no rabbis at that time.
    OK.
    When did you move to New York?
    Oh, that was in '67.
    Why?
    Why?
    We found a place.
    And I find work here.
    And my older daughter, Ella, was working here
    already at that time.
    So she found the place.
    And we bought the house here.
    And did you speak to your children--
    Of course, a mortgage, there is no doubt about that.
    You can't make much money as a mechanic in Troy, New York.
    Oh, yeah.
    But I wasn't working that hard that long enough.
    Did you speak to your children about the war?
    Well, they probably heard a few times.
    That's all, a couple of times, maybe two times.
    You didn't speak?
    No, no, no.
    Why?
    I don't want them to hear that.
    I don't want them to know that.
    It's better they don't know, believe me.
    And did you--
    They have better times.
    I hope they have better times.
    Did you try to give them some kind of a Jewish education?
    Oh, yeah, of course.
    In Troy, New York.
    They went to Talmud Torah right after the--
    right after what school did you go to in Troy, New York?
    Public school?
    [INAUDIBLE]
    And then they went to Talmud Torah after that.
    So public school and then Talmud Torah?
    Talmud Torah, yeah, both.
    And then the third one went up here to school--
    all of them Jewish educated.
    And I was Jewish educated up there from the year--
    when I was six or seven, I went to Talmud Torah,
    as I told you in the beginning.
    How did your experiences during the war
    affect your life here in America?
    Very much.
    First, wherever I was, in other words, which I showed already,
    all the marks from the--
    that affects me.
    And then when I was here, I was first I had a stroke.
    Then I had a--
    they took off my breasts, I'm not ashamed to say.
    From the tumors.
    Then they took out another one a couple of years later.
    They took out another one right there on the neck.
    Now I have a problem with my seizures.
    I also have seizures.
    How did I get the seizures?
    You ask me how did--
    when I came to New York, I started to get a job.
    I was working about 10 years.
    And I fell backwards and just like that on my spine.
    And my head backwards.
    I slipped on the oil, as I maintained up there a factory.
    That was in Bedford Avenue.
    Albany Corrugated I worked for.
    And I slipped down.
    And I since then, I haven't been able to work.
    I couldn't.
    I couldn't.
    Even if I want.
    I went to the doctors.
    He gave me needles every once in a while.
    I think he gave me cancer too.
    He's the one who gave me cancer.
    How--
    From the needles itself.
    When you were in Troy, did you talk to people,
    did the Jewish community want to know about what happened
    during the war, about--
    Yeah, yeah.
    And you spoke about it with them?
    Yeah, many times.
    But not your children?
    We used to live between Jews up there.
    They used to sit on the steps.
    Every time I used to go by from work, well, you stop.
    You tell us what's going on, in Yiddish everything.
    I told them.
    Well, they were eager to know what was going on.
    So I told them.
    Do you ever have dreams about that?
    Many times, many times.
    OK.
    Especially, looking at the family right now.
    How did you get these pictures?
    How did I get the pictures?
    When I came to New York, I came to my father's sister.
    When I was in that time 12 years old,
    my father didn't know how to write
    and read, my mother either.
    So I used to write letters.
    I used to write for them letters here,
    or my brother or my sister.
    We all used to help out.
    Up here, they had a sister.
    One, two, three sisters and a brother, and two brothers.
    One was in Philadelphia, one brother, as a matter of fact.
    And one was here.
    So the pictures I got from his sister when I came to--
    now, they call it New Lots.
    They call it--
    East New York.
    East New York, that's right.
    Of course, I suppose they moved or they died.
    I suppose so.
    And then when I was there, they just
    asked me when I have the train back to go home.
    They didn't ask me if I want something to eat
    or something like that, some today.
    They asked me when I went, when the train is going back
    so I can go back home.
    And that's how I happened to notice the pictures.
    It was in small frames, a small one somewhere.
    So I happened to grab it.
    And I said, this is my--
    it's my blood.
    You can't have them.
    Those are mine.
    And they gave it to me.
    And I took it myself.
    Let's put it this way.
    They didn't give me.
    I took it myself.
    And I made bigger frames and that's how I got them.
    And they didn't want to know about me.
    There's one uncle here, he used to go
    by once in a while to the senior citizen club here.
    There's a senior citizens club in the synagogue.
    So when he saw me, he used to cross the street every time
    he saw me.
    He was ashamed with me.
    Can you imagine that?
    He was ashamed with me.
    So were the people up here, my father's sisters.
    And my father's brother had a factory in Philadelphia.
    He didn't want to see me, because I was all alone.
    And at first, when I came from my father's sister,
    she asked me, it was the question.
    Then she asked me, do you know who they are,
    and they showed me the picture.
    I said exactly.
    I said, this is my father, and this is my sister,
    and this is my mother.
    I want the picture right there right now.
    Whether they liked it or not, I did take it.
    They didn't want to give me to it, that's
    when I have the train back.
    Did you make any--
    The one who used to live in Coney Island, one
    in New Lots on Saratoga Avenue.
    Did you make any attempt to find any--
    not your parents or your sister or brothers,
    but any of your cousins?
    Did you have any other--
    If they didn't want me, how could I find?
    No, no, no, in Europe, in Pinsk?
    Yes.
    We tried to find them, so they can send us a dollar, or $2
    maybe a month, a dollar a month for--
    let's say, for the holiday, they used
    to send $2, which was a lot of money
    at that time for the holidays, $2 for the holidays.
    And then when I came out, they didn't want to know me.
    They didn't want to know about anybody.
    Just, I just have one more question
    that I remembered that I wanted to ask you
    about the Russian army.
    And that was said that they sent all the Jews to the front.
    But did you experience any other kind of antisemitism
    in the Russian army?
    Oh, yeah, there was plenty.
    Wherever you would go, there's antisemitism.
    But in the Russian army?
    Yeah.
    But--
    Your commander was a Jew.
    Yeah, it still doesn't make any difference.
    They still didn't like him.
    They hated him because he's a Jew.
    Because he's a Jew, that's all.
    OK.
    But he took command because they had to.
    And that's not because he wanted to, but he had to.
    OK.
    We ask that the people--
    That's why I ran away from Russians,
    from the communism because of the antisemitism, of course.
    Otherwise, I could have joined the--
    what do you call it?
    The communists and that.
    OK.
    Mr. Rubinoff, this is a release document that just says that,
    well you can read it.
    But we ask everybody who we interview to sign it
    so that we'd be able to use the videotape when we're finished.
    Now, yeah, that's all right.
    OK.
    Could you sign it?
    Now, I want to make sure that you have on the tape
    about my aunts and my uncles, they
    didn't want to know me when I came here to the US.
    Oh, it's on.
    Please.
    This is the most important tape.
    I'll never forget that.
    Anything else you want to say, say.
    You can say it now.
    By the time.
    Up here?
    That's just for me to sign.
    Is there anything else that you want to say?
    Well, all I want to say is, as far
    as this goes, now, as I'm sick--
    well there's one question I'd like to ask you.
    And that's if I can take this picture
    to be copied for the center.
    I'll return the original.
    In other words, I just want to have a negative taken of this,
    so that we can have this picture.
    And I'll return it.
    Yeah, all three are Jewish.
    They are the ones that with me, we
    came to look for the parents.
    That's what I'm going to keep it.
    Yeah.
    OK, right.
    I'll return this to you.
    But we just--
    Come on over.
    Just hold it there.
    That's fine.
    I wasn't here, but did he discuss the numbers on his arm?
    No.
    Yeah.
    Like here we go back again.
    Right there.
    What number number is on your arm?
    Right there.
    There was a number on it too.
    Who put the numbers on your arm?
    After I was in the two days in the ghetto,
    they put the numbers on it.
    And they should try to ship it out.
    When I--
    OK, let's go back to that again.
    Because you were taken.
    You were living in the city of Pinsk.
    And they took you from your house into the ghetto.
    Right?
    Yeah.
    Who took you?
    Did the Germans take you or did--
    The Germans.
    The Germans took you?
    That's right.
    There was no ghetto even for the Polish.
    Who put the number on your arm?
    The Germans, the SS.
    In the ghetto?
    That's right.
    Did they have whole lines of people putting numbers on arms?
    Yeah, they have all of them.
    What number is on your arm?
    Well my number now is all choked up.
    You put a tattoo on it.
    Right.
    Do you want to just pick up your tattoo?
    Do you remember what number was there?
    I'm not going to tell you.
    I can't tell you.
    Why?
    Because I don't want anybody to know about it.
    Here, there was a number on it right there.
    Could you just tell me how many numbers were on it?
    Five.
    Five numbers?
    And did everybody in front of you and in back of you
    get the next number?
    Right.
    And everybody in the town of Pinsk
    had numbers put on their arms?
    In the ghetto, they all had numbers.
    And then they shipped them to the camps.
    Did they get the people out of their homes
    by calling out the numbers?
    Oh, no.
    When they caught him, they got him.
    That's all, when they caught him.
    What do you mean they did get him?
    In the two days, they numbered all the Jews of Pinsk?
    Well, I didn't see all of them.
    In the two days, I couldn't see all of them.
    How could I see?
    What time--
    Then I ran away myself.
    So what time of day did you have your number put on?
    Well, this is the second day.
    And how did they get you to come down to do it?
    Well they caught me at the end in the--
    in the ghetto.
    They caught you and they brought you down.
    Right?
    Were you with your mother and father then?
    Yeah.
    After the second day, they told me to run away.
    And I went to the chimney.
    After you got the number?
    Yeah.
    Had you heard anything about what they were doing to Jews?
    Oh, yeah.
    We heard that up there in the army.
    No, no, no.
    When you were a little boy in the ghetto,
    did you know what they were doing?
    Well that's why I ran out.
    Of course, I heard.
    I don't understand the reason why you
    don't want to say the numbers.
    No, I can't tell you the number.
    I didn't tell the children either.
    There's no record of it anywhere.
    No, a record, there is a record of that.
    They probably have a record, I suppose.
    Who?
    The Germans?
    Yeah.
    Germans have a record.
    All of those documents were confiscated by the United
    States or by the Russians.
    Yeah.
    The Germans, the one that has the record
    is the Germans from all the Jews.
    So you're still afraid that they might find you?
    They might find.
    I'm afraid.
    I don't know.
    There are societies in the United States
    with people from different cities in Europe.
    And there are people from Pinsk.
    Yeah.
    Do you ever make contact with them?
    No, not as I know.
    Not this I know.
    I probably met a few of them, but quite a while ago.
    OK.
    That's all I know.
    Thank you very much.
    You're welcome.
    Thank you.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Irving Rubinoff
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of the Center for Holocaust Studies, Documentation, and Research

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    1 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

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    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Rubinoff, Irving.

    Administrative Notes

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    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received a copy of the interview from the Center for Holocaust Studies, Documentation, and Research.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:11:46
    This page:
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