Oral history interview with Irving Lebow
Transcript
- It is Sunday, October 12, 1980.
- And this is Stanley Bursch speaking
- at the home of Irving Lebow.
- The purpose of this tape recording
- is to preserve for the records of Temple Shalom of Wheeling,
- West Virginia, the experiences of one of its congregants
- during the Holocaust that so affected
- the Jewish people and their history in a manner
- comparable perhaps only to the exodus and the rebirth
- of the modern state of Israel.
- Here's what I think, I can't go right how it started, you know?
- I think I should go a little ahead.
- You know.
- Well, let's go back.
- Where were you living?
- Yeah, in Riga.
- You know.
- I can't start with my childhood, but that would be so long.
- And--
- What did your father do for a living?
- My father was a leather worker.
- He made saddles, saddles for--
- riding saddles.
- What was his name?
- Leibowitz.
- How many children in your family?
- We were six children, five boys and one girl.
- Did you live in a home comparable to this, one
- that we're talking about on Miller Street in Wheeling
- in '62?
- No, no, no.
- We lived in a shtetl, you know, in a shtetl.
- You know what, in a small town.
- And it was a, I would say, a ghetto, a little town.
- All the homes were made out of log cabins because it was--
- our country is an agricultural country.
- And there were plenty of woods and logs.
- Not only that, in my time, there weren't sawmills who
- could cut and form the logs.
- But some of the log homes were quite big and comfortable too.
- And outside, they fixed it up with finishing boards,
- you know, what they still get it, and which was expensive.
- And inside was with--
- how do you call it-- with caulk, with like cement, you
- know, smoothing the walls.
- Some of the homes were nice, but they were log cabins.
- And they were good because it was a cold climate,
- and it's good insulation.
- You know, log.
- So this.
- But if I would tell you all the details,
- you know, I remember from my childhood,
- from my early childhood and then--
- You erased some.
- You're erasing.
- You're erasing.
- OK.
- When I remember how I made my first steps or even before,
- I can't.
- I said I'm imagining, you know.
- And I remember when I--
- Maybe we could disconnect [INAUDIBLE]..
- Yeah.
- And so-- but here lately, you know how it came and I said,
- the father is right because there
- are such children, who are working with the well
- brains, who can't remember.
- I remember a lot.
- I remember how I was weaned.
- I remember how my mother used to diaper me and this.
- But let's not go into this.
- It was primarily an all-Jewish community.
- Yeah.
- All-Jewish community-- in fact, the mayor was a Jewish man.
- And the post office was government.
- So the mail carrier spoke Jewish like any Jew.
- You couldn't distinguish.
- And a few non-Jews who lived around the city,
- they spoke Jewish like Jews.
- They grew up with the Jews.
- What was the name of the city?
- Varaklani.
- Varaklani.
- It was there used to be a song Varaklani is nine [NON-ENGLISH]
- from a bahn.
- A bahn is a railroad.
- We were about nine miles away from the railroad.
- And here, 9 miles by car is nothing to--
- it is a home, you know.
- But there there weren't any cars.
- The first time I saw a car was when I was 14 years old.
- So at the railroad--
- I didn't see a railroad when I was about that age.
- A railroad, a steam engine I didn't
- see when I was about that age.
- So when we lived there, like it was little Israel.
- And there were about three synagogues.
- And it so happened that one synagogue, which
- was called the Green Beis Medrash because it
- was painted green, was across from my house.
- And when I was a toddler, or three or four years old,
- we kids used to play in that synagogue
- because there were no playgrounds
- from around the kids.
- And that synagogue was open all day.
- And that, the bima, what you used to read the scrolls,
- was in the middle, fenced in and elevated.
- And we used to run there and play.
- Were you being trained as a leatherer by your father?
- No.
- No.
- No.
- I started-- and here again, in the shul being
- near the synagogue.
- And in the synagogue, there used to be--
- the people used to study, the old people with gray beard.
- And I would always sit and listen.
- And then my father passed away when I was about five
- and a half or six years old.
- And I had a brother.
- And he was-- when I was about five, he was 15 years old.
- And he started to go to the Lubavitch yeshiva
- in those days.
- And my father, before--
- my mother used to tell me how my father would
- say now I'm working for to support
- this student in the yeshiva.
- And when my father died, he came home
- when I was about four and a half years old,
- four and a half or five.
- That was considered an honor, wasn't it,
- to support a student?
- Right.
- Right.
- For him, yeah.
- So he start teaching me pre-school,
- the alphabet, the Hebrew.
- And I was a kid, and I learned to read.
- And today kids, from television they went there.
- Three years old, they read.
- Some kids are now reading at four years old and five.
- They go to libraries already.
- In the olden days, it wasn't like that.
- So as a kid, a admired kid, and the old men
- used to come when I was come in shul, open the Chumash
- and say, come and read.
- And I would read, and they all open eyes.
- So this is my youth, went up like that.
- When I was about--
- yeah, when I was about six or seven years old, six years old
- to be correct, my brother--
- again, I didn't have a father.
- My mother was a housewife and at home.
- So my brother took over the responsibility of raising me.
- He took over me to school, and it was a public school,
- all the Jewish--
- Jewish, all teachers, all kids.
- There were no Christian.
- A non-Jewish kid couldn't go in because it was all in Yiddish.
- He took me over, and he mentioned to the teacher,
- you know.
- And there you prescribed--
- not prescribed-- brought the child to school, registered.
- You registered, had to register the child.
- So my brother, oh, he can read already.
- So the teacher takes out a book, and I read it.
- Oh, she said, oh, he can go in second grade,
- and I was six years old.
- Why, second grader were already eight years
- old because school started, in those days, and seven years.
- And then I felt already, as young
- as I was, quite proud on this.
- And before we left the school, the teacher calls back.
- She said, oh, maybe not.
- He'll-- maybe he should start in first grade with all the kids.
- The school was in Yiddish, you said.
- In Yiddish, all in Yiddish.
- Not Hebrew, but Yiddish.
- Not Hebrew, now, not--
- Yiddish.
- Did you have Yiddish newspapers?
- Yeah.
- It used to come from Riga, but very few people
- prescribed the Jewish paper.
- It used to go-- a paper used to go from end to end.
- I want to tell you that the living
- standard was so low there because every penny
- counted there.
- People didn't subscribe to a paper because it was costing,
- let's say, like here a paper $0.15 or $0.25.
- And it was only in the capital, Riga, came out a Jewish paper.
- Frimorgn.
- It was called Frimorgn.
- Was there a large Jewish population in Riga?
- In Latvia-- yeah, in Riga were about 40,000 people.
- How many in the village where you lived?
- About 2,500.
- When was the first time that you sort of
- got the feeling something was wrong in Europe?
- Oh, then we have to jump.
- The difference between Jews and non-Jew I felt very early
- already, probably as soon as I started to understand--
- 10 years old.
- How did you-- how did you understand that if you were
- living with all Jewish people?
- Well, listening, listening what they say.
- And then farmers, Christian farmers used to come in town.
- In town was a market place, and there they used to sell--
- the shtetl, you know, we needed wood.
- Burning wood, that was our fuel to heat our homes and to--
- hay for our cow.
- Each one had a cow, or two families had a cow.
- Hay and wood and chickens--
- I don't know why they didn't raise chickens-- and eggs we
- had to buy from farmers.
- Then, like peas and beans and this, from farmers, you know.
- It was in stores too, and it was back like here.
- It was.
- But people were-- potatoes-- also, we all had gardens.
- But for potatoes it wasn't big enough.
- So goyim used to come.
- Not only the-- Jewish people used
- to have a horse and buggy, go out in the surrounding places
- and buy and bring, or fish.
- There were fishers.
- There weren't Jewish fishers.
- But Jews-- there was a fish market or store.
- And we, as I said before, we lived--
- we supported each other, but it was small.
- For example, there was a store, herring
- only, herring and make--
- people ate a lot of herring.
- Or there were a stand from sunflower seeds,
- and these-- very poor.
- A hardware store, it wasn't like here.
- We had iron, you know, what a farmer need
- to fix this is wagon or sled.
- Then was a Jewish blacksmith, who
- was horseshoeing horses or building for farmers--
- cobblers, tailors, storekeepers.
- And the town was built and it had two churches,
- I think one Catholic.
- And I was too young to remember if the other, I think,
- was probably a Protestant church.
- And then between the churches was a big free place,
- and there used to be a market Friday.
- And the farmers used to bring all their produce, berries
- and this.
- And the Jewish people would buy and sell on that.
- When did I feel the difference between Jew and non-Jew?
- Hearing the conversation, and then we
- Jewish kids had to go out swimming.
- There was a little creek about a mile away.
- We had to go through farmer's territory.
- Sometimes farmer's boy would let their dogs on us
- or sometimes they would throw stones.
- And still, we knew it, that it was
- a different, a different feeling between Jews and non-Jews.
- Not only that, when I was older I
- felt that we are like guests in their place.
- They made us feel that everything that we live,
- we live--
- the store what we have, the goy would like to have it,
- the Latvians, because they considered nationalist.
- Latvia, it was their country, and we are like strangers.
- All the time it was a feeling.
- How long did your family live in Latvia?
- In Latvia, we lived until the Second World War.
- No, I mean before--
- In that little town?
- Yeah, I mean before.
- Before I started going to school,
- about when I was about 16 years old.
- OK.
- No, what I'm interested in, how long
- did your father and grandfather and his father,
- how long had they been living in Latvia?
- Oh, oh, oh, In Latvia?
- As far as I know, my grandfather lived in Latvia.
- So at least three generations.
- Three generations, right.
- Right.
- And I think, if I would tell you details, again it would take--
- I can tell you from six and seven and eight and 10 and 15
- years old.
- You began to feel the difference in the--
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- However, we were so used to it, it didn't bother us.
- Somehow, we knew that they don't love us.
- We knew we are like a second-class citizens.
- But we were built in our hearts that we are as good as
- or better as they are.
- In fact, we used to call them, as little boys--
- I didn't know the Latvian language, but one thing
- we would know, to call the Christian boys pig--
- pig shepherds.
- That was our-- when they did something to us,
- we used to run away and say "pig shepherd" or something
- to downgrade them.
- And so--
- How did you deal with the farmers and the Christians
- at the market if you didn't know the Latvian language?
- Well, I was little.
- Our parents knew somewhat.
- I see.
- But Yiddish was generally the language spoken.
- Only Yiddish.
- Only Yiddish.
- And Hebrew, what we learned is from the Bible.
- But we used to translate.
- We started on the Genesis.
- Each word we used to translate.
- In fact, you'll find in the Sholem Aleichem's books,
- he describes how a student, when he started cheder,
- it wasn't a shul.
- We had the shul and the cheder.
- That Hebrew we learned with a rabbi.
- And each word-- [HEBREW],, in the beginning,
- [HEBREW] created, Elohim, God, and so on.
- So that was all.
- However, after-- oh, yeah, when we got older, in our school,
- about when we got in the fourth, fifth grade,
- we had to learn Latvian.
- It was by the government.
- You have to learn the country's language.
- Then we were Russian because Russia were on our border,
- and so there lived a lot of Russians.
- In fact, 12% of the population were Russian.
- And Germans were on our other border.
- And then Latvia was ruled by Germany before 1918,
- before the First World War.
- So a lot in the big cities, not in our shtetl, spoke German.
- So in the fifth, sixth, seventh grade,
- we used to get always new languages.
- And Latvian, for example, we had an hour every day.
- Russian we had two or three times a week,
- and so with German.
- But in school, what we learned the language
- was not enough, the same as in America.
- In America, you start the foreign language
- in high school, French or Spanish.
- If they don't practice it, after two or three years
- it's forgotten or half forgotten.
- So that was with us too.
- However, here what happened.
- When I was about 15 years old, the same brother who
- was teaching me, I mentioned in the beginning,
- he left for Israel when he was about 18 years old,
- as a halutz.
- And in about seven or eight, he came for a visit.
- And at that time, I have graduated from public school.
- By the way, I was a first-grade student.
- But in my days, where we knew--
- the Jewish people themselves knew we have a Jewish problem.
- We are-- we are overpopulated by ourselves.
- The government doesn't absorb us.
- There was not a Jewish person, man or woman,
- employed by the government in a office or the railroad.
- The railroad belonged to the government,
- or post office belonged to the government, or telephone, which
- telephone didn't employ much in those days.
- But like here, you get government jobs.
- No.
- And at that time, actually, it was after the Balfour
- Declaration that England promised
- Israel to be a homeland.
- And not only that, before that even we
- knew we have to do something because our youth already
- didn't have what to do.
- And in a store in the small town,
- it wasn't enough for the father or mother to attend.
- So there were Zionism.
- In fact, in school, our teacher already was-- our principal,
- he was a Bundist.
- He was a leftie.
- And here what it was.
- There were two groups how to solve the Jewish problem.
- One said we should go and build Israel and be
- a nation like any nation.
- And others, and here in shul our principal
- was like that-- he said, the Jewish problem
- can't be solved with Israel.
- Israel is too small and so on and so forth.
- Socialism-- have to fight so that we should be accepted
- and all minorities should be accepted
- and be able to live with the goyim and be equal citizens.
- It appealed, you know.
- So a lot of the kids, we understood already it.
- Was lectured every day because it was
- a very, very acute question.
- So my family were Zionist.
- As I said, my older brother, who was 18 years old,
- went to Israel as a halutzim.
- I had two more brothers.
- They went to Israel too.
- What were their names?
- Named Morris and Louie.
- Are they still in Israel?
- No, no, no.
- They are all dead.
- They lived in Israel in the very hard times,
- and they came to America.
- But they died.
- See, I was the youngest.
- If they would be alive, they would be already probably 85,
- 90 years old.
- So these are-- my brother went to Israel.
- And he stayed there probably-- he went in '21,
- and he came for a visit at the time when I graduated.
- And here what it was.
- In those days, Jews too used to go to yeshivas and study,
- and study, and there was a--
- not to go to school anymore.
- Work is important, doing with your hands.
- And they would say, that's why we are hated,
- because we are-- we never do hard work.
- And the goyim used to think so too.
- So we were-- I was so saturated with that that I didn't--
- oh, yeah, and before graduating, this same principal
- gave us to write a theme, what I'm going to do after school.
- And I told him I'm going to learn a trade.
- So with me he was saying that--
- no education, but with me, he came to my mother
- and said, no, I should learn farther.
- I should learn.
- I should keep on studying.
- However, my brother came.
- And in Israel was too, he said, we need by hand--
- with hand to work because, he said,
- we have doctors who dig ditches and who work in [NON-ENGLISH]..
- And we have too many and other production of educated people.
- So it was decided that I should go to a trade school.
- And sure enough--
- I didn't have my opinion because, living in the town--
- and a lot of even kids who live in big cities,
- you don't know what you want.
- So I listened to my brother.
- And they took me to Riga, and I went to a trade school
- at daytime.
- And then I went to a high school in the evenings.
- And a lot of people couldn't understand how I can manage it.
- The trade school was from 8:00 till 4:00 or 5:00.
- And evening school was from 7:00 to 11:00, the high school.
- And the high school was a Latvian already, in Riga.
- And there I had-- for the first time,
- I had a hard time with the Latvian language
- because what I learned in school wasn't enough.
- However, I managed it, and I graduated
- about the same time, high school in evening school
- and a trade school at daytime.
- What trade were you being taught?
- Electrical-- electricity, wiring, winding armatures,
- transformers.
- And in fact, after I graduated I worked in a radio plant.
- And I had another brother, which was only about five years older
- than I am, who he was already in Riga and working in a store.
- In fact, when I graduated, I worked in the same place.
- It was a radio and photo store.
- And they started to manufacture radios.
- In those days, radios weren't like today.
- It was the crystal detectors, you call.
- It isn't for your time.
- There were no tubes.
- With a crystal, with a wire, you know, you touched.
- And anyhow, and this store developed very greatly
- because they were started from the beginning
- and were growing with the technology.
- And we used to import all our technology
- from Germany and England.
- And our country, and it was a agricultural,
- we exported butter and bacon and lumber.
- And we lived pretty good.
- And now we'll jump.
- So I graduated, and I got a job, and I was quite successful
- in my job.
- And then came the time when we had
- the conscription to the army.
- I had to go.
- Everybody had to go to the army.
- And I went away for two years to the army.
- How old were you?
- I was then about 20 years old.
- So for two years I went to the army.
- This was about in 1938.
- Was there any-- what were you?
- What was your job in the army?
- In the army?
- Well, we had--
- I was in the infantry.
- And in our army, in comparison what I hear here,
- it was-- here is like you live in a hotel.
- We had basic training all the time.
- For two years?
- For two years, yeah.
- It happened to be I was in a bicycle
- regiment in the summertime and a ski regiment in wintertime.
- We were two Jewish boys in the whole business.
- Were there any Jewish officers.
- No.
- No.
- No.
- There was one Jewish policeman in Riga, and that's all--
- no officers.
- No.
- In fact-- and there too, we were so discriminated
- but, as I said, we were used to it.
- For example, any Latvian who went to high school,
- after three months used to get a--
- it's called a strip that he was already--
- next to a soldier, what is that in the army?
- Maybe a private or--
- Private, something like that, automatically.
- Not the Jewish, you know.
- After 24 months, we didn't get it.
- And one, we had a lawyer and this-- nothing, you know.
- But we were used to it.
- As I said, in our hearts we thought
- we are as good as or better.
- In fact, we thought we are better.
- So after--
- Did anybody complain or say any--
- No.
- No.
- No.
- There it was not because it would not help.
- And we didn't want to rock the boat.
- No, there wasn't such a thing as complaining.
- Oh, yeah, and our system was a democratic.
- We had representatives in the-- and it's called the Sejm,
- you know.
- The representatives in the government--
- elected.
- And in fact, one was a very influential man.
- And his name is Dubina, and he was known all over Europe.
- He was with a beard and a rabbi.
- There was another, a rabbi representative, Nurock.
- He was then in Israel, in the Knesset.
- Nurock was a-- very old-timers probably would remember him.
- He was such an influential man, when
- the Russians came in they arrested him
- and he never came back.
- Well, Nurock was arrested too, but he survived and then went
- to Israel.
- There is a lot of things what I will tell you.
- We might go back later on because otherwise it
- would be days.
- We'll see.
- We might even write a book.
- You and your wife can take it over.
- You'll see, it will be interesting episodes.
- But this is, since you need it for the children,
- so we'll go now again.
- After, when I finished the army, it was 1938.
- You see, in '33, Hitler was--
- has taken over.
- And before [AUDIO OUT]
- That would be a good chapter.
- We will start how the Russians came into our country and then
- how the war started and how the Germans acted.
- The war, in general, started--
- this date I remember.
- Later dates I don't.
- In September--
- 1939, and the Germans attacked Poland and England and France
- then.
- He had a non-aggression pact with Poland,
- and they came to their aid.
- And the Germans had a very good success.
- You know, they conquered Poland within two weeks.
- And right away they went to Belgium and Holland and--
- and they finished them up within days, and then France.
- And France, we were reading the papers, and, of course,
- a lot of it we thought that the war is on,
- but they don't mean us because we were a little on the side.
- And the situation were pretty good.
- The economic situation was pretty good.
- And the fact that refugees came in Riga to save themselves,
- we thought that this is our--
- we are at a haven.
- You know, Riga is a haven for the, in those days,
- war situation.
- Where were the refugees coming from?
- From Germany.
- What kind of people were they?
- Mostly Jewish people and a few non-Jews--
- intellectuals, which were known as Democrats
- or that they are not Hitler sympathizers.
- And the war was--
- we, naturally we were sad with the German successes,
- but we didn't feel the danger yet.
- And then in 1940, while the war was on for about a year,
- the Russians came in.
- Where were you working at that time?
- At that time I was working in a radio plant.
- It was called Radio Pioneer.
- And I was getting good wages.
- And since I graduated from that trade school,
- I was considered a good tradesman.
- I was not in the trade.
- And I was born there.
- And I thought it is the homeland and we were safe.
- Of course, I was always a Zionist.
- Even my nickname as a child was "the Zionist"
- because I used to sing all the Zionist songs.
- And in those days till--
- Were your brothers still in Israel at that--
- or Palestine at that time?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Then in 1940, the Russians came in.
- And they came in suddenly.
- We didn't even have the notion that they are coming.
- And only the night before we heard,
- and then those heavy propeller plane
- bombers or whatever they had, the airplanes.
- And they occupied the airport.
- And there was no resistance.
- We didn't even hear.
- And the next day, there was in the papers
- that since the Russians on over the radio.
- They had occupied the radio station.
- It was overnight.
- We all slept.
- That since the war is going gone,
- and Latvia is a neighbor and bordering with a sea,
- they cannot let their interest, the Latvia,
- to go over to guard the Russian interests by Latvia until they
- have to move in.
- And things will be the same.
- And the president was still the president.
- And in fact, he came on the radio
- and said everybody should go to work and not to worry.
- And he said, you go to your work, and I'll do my work.
- [PAUSES] However, in a very short time--
- not to go in details--
- the president was unseated.
- In fact, he was taken to Russia.
- And a high official, that Vyshinsky,
- he was the attorney general of Russia.
- But he was a very good speaker.
- And he came in the factories, organized the factories.
- And we had to go all to the square of Riga
- and demand that Latvia should become a Soviet Republic.
- And we demonstrated.
- It was all organized in the factories.
- And one day came.
- They were full of people, the biggest amount of people
- I have ever seen before.
- And we prepared the placards and signs.
- And the next day, or in a couple of days, it was in the paper
- that the petition was accepted, and Latvia now is not anymore
- Latvia as a Republic, that it's a Soviet Socialist Republic.
- And they had already a representative
- in the [RUSSIAN], that highest--
- soyuz of the Russian in Moscow.
- And it was a Soviet satellite.
- And then, our papers were full already with a Soviet line.
- And they praised Stalin, how clever
- and how foresighted he was that he made a pact with Hitler.
- And he said already, the capitalist Nations wanted
- that Russia should fight--
- to get in a fight, Russia and Germany,
- but Stalin outsmarted them.
- And now the capitalist countries are fighting Germany.
- Russia is completely peaceful.
- And we lived like that for about 11 months.
- Where was your mother, living still with--
- My mother was living with us in Riga.
- From the small town, the shtetl.
- We brought her to Riga because myself
- and another brother and my sister were working in Riga.
- They were working, and I, in the beginning,
- I was getting my education in Riga.
- I was up, by that time, 20 years old.
- So none of your family was left in the shtetl then,
- is that right?
- No.
- No.
- So we lived under the Russians for about 11 month.
- And the press was full of praises.
- And we did not have a notion that they'll attack us.
- However, once in a while, we used
- to listen on sort waves England.
- And we, especially the Jewish people,
- we were alert what's going on.
- And we read between the lines because, from the press
- and from the radio, you didn't get a good picture
- because everything was nice, everything for Russia was nice.
- And they were-- still they were putting
- the guilt on the capitalists.
- And they wanted the war, and America,
- it was still the same, the Cold War, the same language.
- So again, as a surprise, the next day
- we read that the Germans are marching on Russia.
- And I want to tell you that we heard over the radio, we--
- in fact, because I was working in a radio plant,
- and we had that shortwave, it wasn't so common like today,
- everybody can with the radio.
- Before, you could hear the station and that's all.
- So we heard that Churchill was warning Russia
- that the Germans are concentrating their divisions
- on the border with Russia.
- Where were all these refugees living?
- How did they--
- They lived among the people.
- They were-- they rent out in the old countries like that.
- Here for example, we have a house
- with so many rooms and some empty rooms.
- There, if a family had some empty rooms, they had borders.
- I see.
- So they lived in homes where there is one or two rooms.
- And mostly-- not family members came--
- mostly were couples or single people came--
- adults.
- So one morning, we hear that really the Germans
- are attacking the Russian.
- And they said already before, they were praising
- Germany, and not a bad word.
- And they call them all kind of names.
- But they said our forces are vigil,
- and they are giving them resistance.
- And they said everybody should go to work on this.
- However, in a few days, in a few days,
- we could see, when we were going to work, that the Germans,
- instead of going towards the front to meet--
- the Russians, instead of going towards the front
- to meet the Germans, they were going back.
- So, on the radio--
- television we didn't have yet.
- On the radio, they would say that the Russians are changing
- out their regular army with fresh forces, more who know how
- to operate more modern weapons.
- But we did see this all back.
- And it wasn't-- then they-- a few nights,
- the Germans bombarded Riga.
- And then Hitler called back the Volksdeutsche,
- you know, the German people who lived in Riga.
- In Riga, in Latvia, there were about 6% Germans
- because it's a neighboring country.
- He called back all the people to come back to Germany.
- And they grew up in Latvia and knew the language.
- So he dropped them as parachutists at night in Riga.
- They knew the town.
- And already, they went on the roofs, the Germans,
- the fifth column they were.
- And the Russians were paralyzed.
- And still they were saying that they were pushing them
- back and having victories.
- Not only that, they started to mobilize
- the soldiers, the Latvians.
- We were considered already Latvian to Russian.
- So they gave out all the names who
- were serving in the army from this
- and this years should report.
- So some reported, and some did not.
- Were you given a number to report?
- Right.
- Yeah.
- By alphabet-- and everybody had to report, who did service,
- let's say, from '37 to the end.
- And so what happened, they mobilized those, the Latvians,
- and they put them to guard the retreat.
- And their own soldiers, some cavalry and their guns,
- they were pulling back.
- But the Germans came so fast, they blocked them up,
- they got--
- Did you go when you were called?
- No, it wasn't my number yet.
- I see.
- I wasn't.
- And then we saw that things are bad.
- However, the Russians were broadcasting
- still good [INAUDIBLE].
- Were you still working in the factory?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And the factory was accessible.
- So-- oh, yeah.
- And we were already intimidated.
- For example, if I saw that it is the opposite what
- they are doing and what they are saying, you could not tell.
- Unless it's your closest friend, you
- could not tell They are not attacking, they are retreating.
- So in a few days, maybe a week, the Germans came in.
- Where were you the first time you saw a German?
- I was at home already.
- And all I could see is from the window, you know.
- And the radio right away changed it with the marches.
- And the Germans took over the radio station.
- And beside the march music, they said kill the Jews, you know,
- nothing else but the Jews.
- And the Jews made the war.
- And you know, it was already so--
- I saw that we are trapped.
- Why didn't escape?
- Why didn't run like a lot of Jewish people run, to Russia.
- And Hitler [INAUDIBLE].
- I'll come to it.
- And it was very sad.
- And there was already shooting, you know.
- They were extra to live.
- They shot a Jew here and there, you know, on the street,
- lying there.
- It was-- for Jews it was--
- However, the Latvians were jubilant.
- They went with them right away.
- And right away they had volunteers with the armbands,
- with German signs.
- And I saw them through the window.
- I lived on the fourth--
- first-- fourth floor, and I could see how
- the Germans were marching in.
- Was your mother still with you?
- No.
- No.
- My mother was already dead.
- I had-- my brother was with me and a sister, a married sister
- with two infants.
- But I was alone when he was there.
- When the Germans started to bombard Riga,
- my sister were with two kids, and we
- lived on the fourth floor.
- You had to run.
- And that was already still--
- the Russian power was, and they said everybody
- must run in the shelter.
- And every other house, or third got a cement shelter
- in the basement, where you could run.
- And we did [INAUDIBLE] families.
- And then you wake them up, and you cry.
- So my brother and I and her husband
- was still from a shtetl near us.
- And her husband, we decide like that.
- We knew our shtetl was far from a train
- or from a strategic road or so.
- And the First World War in our shtetl, there was fighting,
- but we hardly felt it.
- So we thought they should go back.
- And we had a house.
- They should go back and spend the time of the war in shtetl.
- And in that days, trains were still going.
- But the trains were going from Riga
- was west to east, to Moscow, in that direction.
- You didn't need even tickets.
- They let in.
- And the most were with army trains and a few carriages
- they had for us.
- And we lived not far from the railroad station.
- So we took the sister and her two children and her husband,
- and we put on the train to go to the shtetl
- because our shtetl was on the east.
- So here's what happened.
- And this I found out after the war.
- Instead the train should stop near our shtetl--
- our shtetl was about eight miles from the train anyhow--
- and let off passengers, they went right on to east,
- took them to Russia.
- And I didn't know it until the end of the war.
- When the Germans came in, I used to hear how they, in Riga, they
- didn't kill the Jews.
- They killed the ones, but en masse.
- But in the little towns, they gave weapons to the peasants
- and to all the Christians and said go and kill the Jews.
- And they were buried or burned in the synagogue.
- In my shtetl, they were all put together in those synagogues
- and put on fire.
- And one group with a rabbi from, they made it out to the woods.
- So that [INAUDIBLE] we again, a mistake we made.
- We put my sister and her family in the mouth of the lion.
- And after, as time passed by, I thought maybe
- that was the best.
- They didn't have to suffer because we'll all go under.
- And I was with the idea that they are not alive anymore.
- Now we'll go back what happened.
- When the Russians came in, right away the Jews and the Jews,
- they are--
- every day, over the radio and in the paper used to be laws,
- decrees that the Jews, for example, the first
- was that every Jew has to wear a yellow Star of David.
- Some didn't have the yellow cloth.
- And the next day, they said that in a certain address
- you'll get the yellow cloth.
- Everybody's allowed to go there.
- Oh, yeah, for the first day, no Jews are allowed on the street,
- for the first couple days.
- Then no Jew is allowed to walk on the sidewalk.
- All the Jews has to turn in their radios
- and cameras and their gold and silver, wedding
- rings and everything.
- So radios and cameras, they brought out the--
- jewelry, some gave a little and hit a lot,
- or they had good friends with the Greek Christians.
- They asked them to hide or something.
- But you had to go on--
- no radios.
- And every decree was like that.
- If you don't follow, you'll be shot on the spot.
- Anybody who is found with a radio
- will be shot, and always shot, shot.
- So then how about the stores?
- Jews can't go and stores and buy except for 7:00 till 8:00,
- in one hour.
- And it was very, very frightening and very dangerous
- because it wasn't only talk.
- There were a lot of people who were shot, a lot.
- Then a lot of people were taken out from the homes at night
- and arrested, and you didn't know what happened to them.
- Then after that, they said that every male Jew from 16 and up
- has to register for work in the prefecture, the police station.
- And everybody had to go.
- Whoever we'll find in the house, that they will be shot.
- And then I'll mention, I too, I went to register
- and they took me to hard work and such.
- And human behavior and this, I thought it is--
- What did you do, Irving?
- What kind of work?
- One time, for example, they put us
- in in a big Russian warehouse that had,
- the oats and fodder for animals.
- You had to load it, and load it on inside--
- no water and this.
- And you inhaled all the dust for a day.
- And it was bad.
- And you couldn't ask them for a little water, nothing.
- Word.
- Then we had to fill sacks and put it on the trucks.
- And another the day I was-- and that was the worst--
- I was taken to work near a railroad, where
- they had a depot and a lot of the railroad ties impregnated
- with chemicals.
- It was already windy and cold.
- And we had carried it for half a mile too.
- And, you know, the long ties, they are good lumber, squares.
- They were heavy too.
- And one-- one hour or two is one thing.
- But you have to work 10 hours.
- And I remember, I told you already.
- When the chemicals and the splinters fell in in your eyes,
- and you were sore, you know, your shoulder,
- and the next day--
- and no food.
- At the end of the day, they gave us half a loaf of bread
- to take home.
- And come tomorrow again.
- And some got beaten up.
- And you know, when a German, when he hits you,
- he hit to injure you.
- And I thought there is no use.
- And I wanted to commit suicide, I'll tell you.
- I mentioned it to you.
- I don't want it to be that way.
- Well, if you die, who knows which way is harder to die.
- And maybe there is a chance.
- Let's make it.
- Maybe it'll improve.
- Maybe, you know, always to get the benefit of doubt.
- And I did not go to work.
- And here's what happened.
- When the alarms were, and I had to go to a shelter--
- our building, where I lived, didn't have a shelter.
- So I had to go to a next building.
- And in each shelter, there were organized already
- by the Russians before the Germans came in.
- They had a older man who organized.
- And that was pretty good organized.
- They had even beds and mattresses
- for women or children.
- And the adults were standing or sitting down.
- There were no benches.
- But it was all from [INAUDIBLE].
- So there was a man, and he lived next door to where I lived.
- But before I saw him, but I never made contact with him.
- And so he was very friendly to me.
- What was his name?
- Sirius, Janis Sirius.
- A Christian, a goy.
- And so somehow, I used to come in.
- In fact, I was, I think, the only Jew.
- And I was standing in a corner, and the goyim used to talk
- [INAUDIBLE] and laughing.
- And they had one more than I was,
- and I knew what is going to go on.
- And I don't know if they know it, that I'm Jewish or not.
- But anyhow, we got a little bit acquainted
- during the few evenings when there was the alarms.
- And-- and when I didn't go to work, I start getting afraid.
- Oh, yeah, and they start giving out signs, walking signs,
- that if you worked, belonged to somebody,
- you can go on the street.
- And if they catch you you show you
- are working, all of us there.
- They can beat you up or catch you, anybody.
- So I started to work.
- So I thought, I'll go too, and I'll
- register myself for work again.
- So while going, I see next door to my building,
- some Jewish girls go in.
- And one kept--
- I know one.
- I went to high school together.
- So I asked her, what are you doing here?
- She said, oh, we are working here.
- She said the man brings us even food from a restaurant.
- That was an huge.
- So I thought, that would be a good job for me.
- It's next door, you know, because the walking
- was a danger, walking on the street.
- And I didn't know what had been, so I go in.
- And they said, yeah, there's the man.
- You can talk.
- I go in, and I saw that man, you know,
- who was the guard, the Ordungs holder, who kept order.
- And he is their boss.
- He hired them.
- So I go in, and I tell him, can he use--
- yeah, I can use you.
- So he goes with me to the police station and said--
- he leads me.
- And they were giving me a sign, and he keep me.
- Now, who was that man?
- Next to our building in town was--
- it was called a school museum.
- And what is a school museum.
- In America you don't have it.
- For example, in America, it's public school or high school.
- If they have an aquarium, they can have a fish aquarium
- or have a reptile.
- Or there is zoo not far away.
- You take your kids there.
- We didn't have it.
- So this, he had a whole floor of--
- And so he got me the job.
- He employed me.
- On the second day, and what--
- oh, yeah.
- So what was I doing?
- He was the student museum manager.
- And so kids used to come to the school museum
- so they could see how animals look or fishes or whatever
- when they were having botany or something.
- He had all kind of butterflies collections
- and so on and so forth.
- So when I came, I used to fix his-- he had a lot of doors,
- and doors wouldn't close.
- And and he had it locked under locks and keys.
- He didn't have keys and this.
- So on the second day, when all the Jewish people-- and he
- had a number of girls working.
- They had to clean the rooms and dust.
- And during the war or before, they
- were neglected, and on the floors too.
- So he asked me one, the second night, to stay a little longer.
- And he said, how do you get food?
- He was listening.
- And the goyim knew how bad it is for the Jews.
- And he had-- he was sympathizing.
- Where do you live, and how do you get food and this?
- And what do you eat?
- So I said, all I need is bread, bread and maybe a little piece
- of butter, and that's all.
- And I said, so I haven't got this.
- So he said-- and like that.
- And he find out--
- he knew that I live in the neighborhood,
- and I told him where.
- So my window, from my room-- and we had Venetian blinds like
- that--
- was across, you know, like this building.
- He said, come in tonight for a warm meal, to our place.
- And he said sometimes I have visitors.
- Nobody should know.
- But I'll have, he said--
- I'll put a piece of paper here, and the light
- will come through this, and you come in.
- So we came in.
- I came in, and it was already probably a couple of weeks--
- warm soup or this.
- I didn't have, but I didn't care.
- I was young.
- And as I said, bread, it was enough--
- bread water and a little piece of butter because you're
- aware the danger.
- You felt it's so great that the food was nothing.
- You didn't imagine.
- There is no enjoyment.
- There is-- you were obsessed with the future, what
- the morning will bring, what the next day or the next hour
- will bring because the radios from the goyim,
- they said that this shtetl is already judenrein,
- clean of Jews and this.
- And they were telling how Jews did this and that, all kinds
- of, that they found a family was murdered by Jews
- and-- you know, to incite hatred and wrath against the Jews.
- But he wasn't like that.
- So anyhow, I came in.
- And here his wife brought me a--
- I remember it was mushroom soup, something with milk.
- And I sat down.
- They were sitting, and she was crying.
- And he was sitting there.
- He said-- and you know the war was on already for a year,
- and Hitler had so much success.
- You would have to read the history of that time.
- He was going from victory to victory.
- And we were talking.
- I said, well, it looks very bad.
- I don't know what the future will be.
- And he said-- he was an old man at that time.
- I was 20 years old, and he, in my eyes,
- he was old because he must been 60 years old.
- He said, no, he said, justice will conquer, he said.
- And he said, that Hitler, he'll break his neck.
- He said he's taking one country after the other
- and suppressing them.
- But he said, one day the people will get--
- even if he'll conquer everything,
- he won't be able to hold.
- And to me it was, in a way, at that early age
- and I didn't know how things work out, it was unbelievable.
- But he said--
- And it did gave me courage, on the other hand, because I
- thought he knows what he's talking about.
- And then I stopped to think.
- And I stopped to realize.
- I'm thinking like afterward.
- He was the first man in those days I heard something
- encouraging because the Germans-- oh, yeah,
- the Germans had--
- the German soldiers who were working with us,
- they said, oh, Stalin is kaput.
- And it will be in Moscow.
- In fact, the Volksdeutsche, they had
- reached Moscow and Leningrad only the first 10
- days of the war, or two weeks.
- And Russia, it will fall apart.
- And we'll be all over and this.
- They were-- the Germans were--
- had so much belief in the führer and in the future.
- Anyhow, so I--
- I was there.
- Then I went home.
- And the next day, he said, we'll come again.
- Here what happened.
- One day, it was the second or third day, he said, sit down.
- Let's-- let's talk things over.
- And at that time, the ghetto was forming.
- What it means "the ghetto was forming," they already--
- the Germans set up a Jewish--
- a Jewish gemeinde.
- It means a Jewish rab, a Jewish advisory committee.
- And the Germans told them where there'll
- be the ghetto, in a suburb.
- It was called the Moscow suburb.
- It was a dilapidated suburb.
- Before, Jewish people didn't live there.
- But they took out, chased out the habitants.
- To some they gave Jewish places.
- And they were fencing it up, and the Jews
- had to move over there.
- And that-- so, yeah.
- So the ghetto was formed.
- And he said, listen, my wife is Jewish, the woman, you know.
- And he said, some people, my coworkers,
- knew that she was Jewish.
- And some reported her, that all the Jews has to go in ghetto.
- And he got a notification that he
- has to send his Jewish wife in ghetto.
- He said, what do you think?
- I don't know, I said.
- I can't tell you, but--
- he said-- I said, well, if the way you think,
- and the war will be over, maybe she'll be in ghetto
- till you get her out.
- Or maybe you'll be able to visit her.
- Oh, he said, no.
- Soon as I let her go, I won't get to see her anymore,
- he said.
- Anyhow, so here what he did.
- Since he was working with the schools, and in Latvia,
- it was a big, big position to have.
- And he had friends in the university.
- In the university, all the professors-- in those days,
- Latvia didn't have intellectuals of their own
- because Latvia was independent only 18 years.
- And they didn't produce any professors.
- So they were all Germans, the higher in the university.
- In fact Latvia, during their independence,
- they made the university.
- You know, it wasn't--
- in Riga, they didn't have a university.
- So he went those, the Germans, and talked.
- And with bishops he got papers that, yes,
- he didn't deny that she was Jewish.
- She was one eighth of a Jew, that her grandparents or part
- of a grandfather was a Jew, and [INAUDIBLE] So--
- so this man befriended me.
- And I had it--
- oh, yeah, he used to go in the store and buy, for me.
- He would bring me what--
- I would give him the money.
- Then, when we had to go to ghetto, in ghetto
- we had to leave everything.
- And I was living--
- my sister and I and my brother, we had--
- our apartment was on the fourth floor because it was next door,
- you know.
- So my sister had furniture and silverware and this.
- Everything was left.
- So he said to me, he said, well, the Germans will take it
- away. he said, better let's bring it here.
- And if you will survive, it will be yours.
- So sure enough, it was--
- and we gave him everything.
- And he had another goy, a helper.
- And I helped him, and we moved over all this stuff
- to that place.
- And he was so interested on the day I left to the ghetto.
- I went, you know.
- He went with me, and he said he wants
- to see how does it look there and how [INAUDIBLE]..
- So I told them already, I knew where I'll live
- and how many people are.
- So he went there.
- And I said that already they have
- guards in most of the places.
- In a few places, the fence weren't ready,
- so you could go in and out.
- But he insisted that we can.
- And he had a hard time getting out,
- exactly, because it was a--
- you know, I was from the last one to get here.
- And but he went out.
- You say your sister went with you There
- No.
- My sister we put on the train.
- Before you went to the ghetto.
- Before.
- Yeah, before the ghetto.
- Before the Germans even--
- Right.
- Before the Germans.
- So, who went with you to the ghetto?
- Your brother?
- No.
- And he was there, but wasn't coming.
- No, I was all by myself.
- When the war started, in fact, the last day,
- when the Russians were still in town, a lot of people
- used to come with them.
- Young people used to jump on their trucks,
- you know, troop trucks, and go, just like on the street.
- And I was busy working, you know.
- And I was reading the paper or listening.
- And I-- I remembered from the First World War what people
- were told, how--
- how, even the first--
- you are poor, but you have enough to eat to survive on.
- My heart wasn't to run because I knew the Russians.
- I observed.
- There is no order, no discipline.
- So somehow I told my brother, well, listen.
- World War we won before, and we won't have so much.
- But they won't kill people for just being Jews.
- You know, I didn't believe it.
- Then-- oh, yeah, another thing I argued with him.
- I said, listen, if we were communists,
- we should be afraid.
- But we were not communist, neither he or I.
- And everybody knows that.
- But he said, no.
- What I hear, and what people tell me is we should escape.
- So at that last day, I decided I would go.
- So we took blankets.
- And we didn't have, like here, every house
- had suitcases and this.
- But suitcases would have been bad,
- you know, because all the goyim, if the
- would have seen a Jew walks with a suitcase,
- they want to take away because it was--
- they were-- they were told whatever the Jews have,
- it is yours, for the goyim.
- So we did like a lot of people.
- We took a blanket, put on our clothing, what we have,
- and whatever we wanted to have with us.
- And we tied the four corners, made a pack, and we went.
- And we went to the railroad.
- And we didn't live far from the railroad.
- OK.
- There was a train, steam--
- steam engine.
- And it was no-- no engineer.
- And people are already packed.
- Some say that train won't go anymore.
- The Russians all went away already.
- It was chaos.
- The streetcars, the wiring is off,
- and on the road, all of the streetcars not going,
- no, no traffic.
- The only you see horses abandoned, you know.
- They were from-- evidently they were already worn out.
- They abandoned because the horses are--
- you drive a horse for a couple days and no food
- and no drink, he--
- so Russian horses.
- And people, you didn't see.
- You could see-- so some who left, who were left over
- and they want to escape, so we went to the train.
- We got there.
- And that train was full with people
- who are trying to escape, not only from Latvia.
- They were already from the neighboring, Lithuanians
- or from villages, some were bombed out
- or they want to go to Russia.
- And there were that all the men should
- give the seats to the women.
- And after a while, more people come in.
- It was not a place to stand.
- And I said to my brother, I don't know what we're doing,
- and we're doing right by escaping.
- I said, here we--
- we know the language.
- We know this.
- We know the character of the people.
- We might-- what it'll happen or [INAUDIBLE]..
- Here is a certain death.
- He knew more than--
- he was older.
- So anyhow, we are waiting there.
- We are waiting, and nothing is doing.
- Once I said, oh, that, the last train left already.
- This will remain in city.
- And all of a sudden, bullets start
- flying, like machine guns.
- And it flies over in the train.
- And I told it, the fifth column of Germans,
- they dropped overnight on the roofs.
- They were shooting in the train.
- And the people start jumping out of the windows,
- and they're spreading out, and spreading out.
- And some got injured and were crying and yelling.
- And not everybody could go out because of everybody wanted
- to go out through a door, you can't.
- And finally-- and you couldn't stick together already.
- It was such a panic.
- Anybody-- I don't know, I didn't see where he is, went out
- or where.
- And how, before all the people were--
- they went out, and they were running
- to hide away from the bullets.
- And there was continuing shooting.
- So after it calmed down, try to find Max, my brother.
- He's not there.
- So I figured, when it was shooting,
- maybe he went back home.
- We lived about two blocks away.
- Maybe he went home.
- So I take my-- no, the bags were in inside there.
- So I go home.
- I go home.
- I go in, try to look for him.
- He's not there.
- So I go back to the station.
- The train is gone.
- So Max [INAUDIBLE] and that was the last train.
- There were no more.
- In fact, I saw Russian women with children on their arms.
- And they said their husband told them to wait,
- they'll come to pick them up.
- You know, the street were--
- they sat down here.
- And they asked me, where is the way to Russia,
- to walk with a child in hand.
- And they went to it.
- I could see how.
- In those days, I was too.
- I was so compassionate, how they were left without.
- And so I remained by myself.
- And later on I heard what happened to my brother.
- That he was-- when that train came near the Russian border,
- the Russians sealed the border.
- They wouldn't let him any except the Russians.
- And he was left at the border.
- And there were other Jews from other places.
- And he said they were going without food.
- One man came back from that train.
- So he-- when I met him, I said something there.
- And Max, how he was worried about what happened to me.
- I was worried what--
- anyhow, and then I didn't hear from Max, from my brother.
- Here what happened.
- After I was liberated in Germany, and after a long time,
- I could not--
- I knew I have here another brother and uncles.
- And I wrote to them, and I didn't get any, any answer.
- I was liberated in Bergen-Belsen.
- And I thought-- and at that time,
- the Haganah used to come already in Bergen-Belsen.
- And they-- and they said all the Jewish people
- should go to Israel.
- And so I had registered myself to go to Israel.
- And at that time, the immigration was illegal.
- And if you read about it--
- you are young, and you didn't live at that time.
- The Haganah, the Jewish Brigade, part of it,
- used to come and organize groups.
- And they would come-- we would come under illegal immigration
- on boats.
- They hired boats in Europe and took them to Israel.
- And the English wouldn't let them off of the boats.
- So during the night, refugees used
- to wait on smaller boats from a bigger boat.
- And they used to swim to the shores.
- And if you read later on, the English used to the boats
- with the refugees and bring them to Cyprus
- and put them in camps until the United Nations decided
- to divide Palestine in an Israel and an Arab state.
- And it became legal to immigrate.
- But what happened?
- So I registered to go to Israel, because I wrote a few letters.
- I didn't know exactly the address,
- but I knew Bellaire, Ohio and Tulsa, Oklahoma, anyway.
- But I didn't get any answer.
- So I registered to go to Israel.
- One time, after-- that was already after the liberation.
- One time I had a girlfriend, a Hungarian.
- So I came to her barrack.
- And I see a little girl writes a letter.
- She writes a letter.
- So this friend of mine said--
- I asked her, to whom is she writing.
- She said, well this girl has a father in America.
- And she writes to him.
- I said, does she get any answers?
- So she said, oh, yes, she gets answers.
- So I said, do you think she would mind
- if I gave her a little note?
- Maybe he can find my relatives.
- She said, why not?
- So I wrote down the names of my relatives and this and that.
- And I give it to her.
- And you know, in a couple of weeks--
- In a couple of weeks, they called my name.
- In Bergen-Belsen, we had the English after the liberation.
- It was in the English zone.
- So all the letters or communications,
- they used to drive in a truck with a loudspeaker
- and announce what came in.
- They couldn't deliver letters like delivered there.
- They had at place, a little office.
- And that office, in fact, was an English chaplain, a rabbi.
- And they called my name too.
- In fact, I didn't hear it.
- And later on, when I met the same girl, she said,
- you know, she said, that they called your name.
- Did you hear it?
- I said, no.
- She said, yeah, they called a name for you.
- So I, right away, ran to that office.
- There were a line of people with letters for [INAUDIBLE]..
- And I glanced at the statement, and saw right away.
- I recognized my brother's handwriting.
- And so it came my turn.
- I got the letter and I open up.
- And he writes that--
- he writes to me.
- Probably you know that Hilda, my sister is alive.
- And it was, for me, like you know.
- And she and her husband have children,
- and they are alive in Siberia.
- They went.
- And then when I came here, after a year-- after the liberation,
- I came to the United States.
- And I asked about Max.
- So she said, yes, Max was alive almost the whole time.
- He was in the Russian army.
- You know, they mobilized it.
- And he got in touch, through other people, with my sister.
- I didn't know it, all the four years, that he was alive too.
- However, he-- at Stalingrad-- that was at the end, in 194t--
- he was helping to defend Stalingrad.
- And he fell.
- He was wounded badly.
- And then my sister didn't hear from him anymore to him.
- Evidently, something happened.
- But he was there.
- Right.
- So for me, it was entirely new.
- You know, I thought Max is gone.
- [INAUDIBLE] if this chapter.
- Now what happened to that Gentile, who were--
- who had the Jewish wife and who befriended me?
- And he helped me out quite a bit.
- When-- when-- now, when the Germans came in,
- and we were in ghetto, then in ghetto they sorted the people.
- We were 40,000 people in ghetto.
- They sorted the elderly, the women and children,
- in one ghetto.
- And the single, able-bodied man, and then which trades they
- are sorted, in other part of ghetto.
- In-- in one day, I don't know the date
- or when, but all the people who are
- from this certain part of the ghetto had to--
- and it was wintertime, I remember-- had to get dressed,
- take a minimum of the things, they said,
- and they'll be resettled in another place.
- And they called the name.
- There is food is easier, and space is easier.
- And who will be able to work a little bit
- will be able to work, and they'll resettle them.
- And people were going.
- And then they gave an opportunity
- to husbands who wanted to go out with their families come
- join them.
- And that was maybe 25,000 people, I think.
- Instead of resettling them, what they said--
- and a lot of people doubted.
- But they took them out.
- And what we heard later on, people
- who were going out of the ghetto,
- that they killed them in mass graves.
- After they took them out and quasi resettled,
- they brought postcards and letters from the people to say,
- we are having it nice.
- It is nice here, and roomier, and this and that.
- What the Germans did, they made them write postcards.
- Goyim used to tell us that it was a terrible thing.
- Goyim used to come and tell us that there
- was a massacre [INAUDIBLE].
- And not one was left--
- left alive.
- So the one who used to get the cart, and you know, everybody
- was high strung and nervous.
- And they would say, oh, why are you spreading panic and this.
- Look, there are postcards and this.
- And you know, the Germans mixed up the way of thinking.
- And [AUDIO OUT]
- Some are alive or some are dead.
- And meanwhile, the able-bodied people, they
- organized in groups for work.
- And work, that was allowed because they
- had cheap work and--
- and dependable work.
- The Jews, first, every Jew spoke German, not only Jews,
- because Jewish is similar to German,
- because in Riga, there were German schools.
- And all the Jewish people went to German schools.
- And it was the--
- instead of Jewish, in fact, when I came from my shtetl
- and where I worked, it was German.
- And we learned.
- So.
- So they organized in small groups.
- Not only that, if, in many cases,
- the Germans, the German units who needed
- the Jews kozemed them in.
- Kozem means they quartered them in in their places,
- so they didn't have to go back and forth to the ghetto.
- And the Jews who worked for the Germans felt safer.
- The others who did not work in the ghetto,
- then they forced, they work hard and killed and sent
- to concentration camps.
- There was a camp, too.
- The ghetto was a little somewhat better in Riga.
- I don't know how-- tell in a concentration camp.
- At that time, they took me.
- And in fact, how I got the job with the Ordnungspolizei--
- Ordnungspolizei mean the police who keep order on the town.
- But they weren't-- our policemen weren't the killers.
- You know, the killers were the SS, Hitler's troops.
- And they were supplying telephone and communications
- apparatus to the Eastern Front.
- So we were working there.
- In fact, we could listen to the radio, too.
- We were repairing radios, on shortwaves.
- And here what happened-- and that was forbidden,
- you know, forbidden for everybody under death penalty.
- I mean, when you--
- I don't know if in the present radios--
- if you tune in a station on shortwaves
- and there is another station-- in another house,
- another room-- it start to whistle, high-pitched whistle.
- In next room--
- I told you before how where we were working,
- there was a three-room apartment on the basic floor.
- In the front was the warehouse in the middle room
- where the Germans, in the last one where our workhouse
- where we were working.
- Where we were fixing the radios, we would just turn the needle.
- This would get a whistle all the time
- that the German-- you know, there
- were about four or five Germans, but one especially
- used to listen, especially lunchtime when
- the other Germans used to go away for lunch,
- he would tune in shortwaves on.
- And on shortwaves from England, they had, on every hour, news
- in German for the German people.
- At that time, in English, I didn't
- understand when I worked.
- So I would listen, and I knew what's going on on the Front.
- If-- so I would know.
- And then-- but it was so you had to watch out
- not to let them know that you listened.
- If somehow the Germans would find out from all the Jews
- somehow around the way that somebody listens,
- and it comes to the authorities, you would be shot.
- However, I had, in Riga, another few people from my shtetl
- who settled in Riga.
- And we were good friends.
- And one was so--
- and he was the most intelligent of my shtetl people.
- He was so interested in the news,
- he would wait for me near the gates when I come in.
- And he would come and put his hand
- on my shoulder-- little boy, what's what.
- And it was such a funny thing.
- I would tell him what and how.
- You know, the Germans would always
- report they drown so many boats and this and that.
- But the English would be truthful.
- They would say they loaded that much, they load.
- But they would say what they did to the Germans.
- And I would tell him right away.
- And he had another brother.
- And there was another two brothers from my shtetl.
- And right away when he would go home,
- he would tell these two people--
- they lived in the same.
- And there was always a little exaggerate,
- made a little better.
- But it was for us--
- they kept me like I was the radio.
- [LAUGHS]
- And I would tell him.
- And it was very important.
- It was to raise the morale, because it was--
- the Germans, if you would listen to the Germans,
- you would think you are lost.
- And we knew, also, what in abroad, in America
- or in England, what they report about the Jews.
- You know, we have, too--
- in England, English knew that they are murdering or they had.
- So I worked at the time for the police.
- And then it was--
- again, came from Berlin that no more--
- the German units cannot keep the Jews working.
- Yeah, they liquidated the ghetto and sent all the Jews
- to the concentration camp.
- And there were goyish too, you know.
- Irving, before we get to the concentration camp,
- how long did you work for the police?
- About eight month to a year.
- And during that time, I believe you told me,
- but we didn't get it on tape, about your experiences.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Would you mind telling--
- The torture.
- --me that again, so I can--
- Oh, I think like that.
- Let me tell you--
- let me go my way about the goy and my good goy.
- And this will make an extra--
- OK.
- Maybe an extra, right?
- All right.
- So here what happened.
- This-- we're taking--
- he took you to the ghetto.
- And that's where you left off.
- And he had a hard time getting out afterwards.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Right.
- And oh yeah, one time while I was worked for the police,
- here what happened-- the police there--
- we fixed radios.
- But also was going to go on the--
- one of the policeman, they had drivers driving trucks
- back and forth to the Front.
- And in wartime, gasoline was very--
- it was rationed.
- Private people couldn't get gasoline at all.
- So here what the--
- what one time, the driver from a truck--
- and he was the--
- he used to pick us up from the ghetto
- and bring us when he wasn't on the road.
- Asked me, he said he needs gasoline,
- but he cannot get gasoline unless he has the tachometer.
- the meter in the car, the mileage meter.
- I heard, you know.
- He asked me if I can do it for him.
- So and he said that he needs it.
- He said he-- well, let me see.
- So I got under and I screwed-- you could get--
- I took a drill machine, a hand drill.
- And I put on, and I drilled it like that,
- so he put on more mileage.
- He could get more gasoline.
- The gasoline they used to sell for cigarettes, for everything.
- So and he was a good goyim.
- So one time he said, I would like something to do for you.
- Do you know--
- I think--
- What was his name, Irving?
- His name was Weissner.
- He was a German from Germany.
- Oh yeah, with the Germans, we knew they felt sorry for us.
- In fact, one time one of the Germans there, a man,
- he was from Berlin.
- It was-- I think it was Christmastime or New Year's.
- He said, I wish the war would be over, and we have a good year.
- And he said, and for you, the situation
- would change to the good, too, he said to us.
- What was his name?
- His name was Master, Mr. Master from Berlin.
- He was the head of the, chief--
- Right, right.
- --of the police?
- Right, not of the police, but of this.
- This was a branch of the police.
- It wasn't the main.
- This was a branch.
- And they had to worry about the telephone and the radio
- for the Front.
- But he was a pretty good man.
- Not only that, in fact, the other boys--
- you see, the other boys were taking care of the building
- and heating and this.
- And they all used to go for lunch.
- One boy saw that he got a letter he put in his coat
- on the left side.
- He took out the letter, and we knew
- how the Germans feel in Berlin.
- So he had a wife and a daughter.
- And she wrote him how bad it is-- food is scarce
- and the bombardments and this.
- And she said that the war is lost, anyhow.
- And she goes, they wish it would be over sooner.
- But so after a certain period of time, all
- the Jews had to go to the concentration camp.
- However, it happened-- and I don't know how that one German
- took out specialists of the ghetto, and he moved over.
- And he quartered them in in a plant.
- It was a textile plant on the other side of the river.
- And the textile machinery-- the Germans
- didn't need the textile.
- They broke up in scrap and sent it to Germany.
- And there he made a tailor shop, but a big tailor shop
- and a shoe manufacturing plant and a garage they used to fix
- and a printing plant.
- Every imaginable trade, he placed there,
- because during the war there was nothing.
- Everybody was on the Front, or it was destroyed,
- or it wasn't important to--
- and there-- and he gathered them Jews with trades.
- And when I-- and they came in here.
- Then I said, who am I?
- I can fix typewriters, I can fix watches,
- I can fix electric motors.
- This was while you were working at the police station?
- No, that was in between when they closed it.
- No more-- that was after, a little after, a few days after.
- OK, you had been working at that police station for 11 months?
- Right, but I used to stay there, to sleep in there.
- And go back and forth.
- Go back In the morning, yeah.
- Not to go back by myself, but a German used to come,
- one of the--
- and pick up his Jews.
- And we'll come back at night.
- And it was a lot of groups like that.
- Would you mind telling the gun story?
- Now?
- Yes, while you're at the police station,
- so we don't jump ahead.
- Oh, OK.
- So well, we would have to jump a little bit back.
- While I was at the police station, I met him, the man,
- and I was known.
- Very soon I was known by the Germans
- that I know too more, this and that.
- So anything imaginable they used to bring me to fix.
- And one time that Master, he brings me--
- he said, can you clean my gun, I haven't cleaned it
- for a long time.
- I said, all right.
- In fact, he didn't-- can you clean, but he said, do it,
- you know-- it would--
- so I take it apart, and I clean it.
- And meanwhile, there was another boy.
- We were-- at this group, we were two, four, six,
- eight young men were working.
- There were two who were chopping wood and heating the rooms
- and cleaning up.
- And two were in the warehouse, loading and unloading
- there, some packing this.
- And two were with us.
- We were, myself and another, were fixing,
- repairing the things.
- So while I cleaning, so one--
- Abraham Field, was his name, Abraham Field.
- And I knew him before, I told you.
- We were the same age.
- And when we had maneuvers, he was
- serving in the army in a different town.
- And I was in a different.
- But for me and the Jewish people, I was in the army the--
- who blows the horn.
- You know, the--
- Bugler.
- Bugler, yes.
- So and he said, oh, how come a Jew, they let you be a bugler?
- [LAUGHS] And that's the way we got acquainted,
- because just as I said before, the discrimination was so--
- they were ashamed to let a Jew be a little higher
- than the ground.
- So he said, oh, you know how to do that?
- Said, well, I know, and I was in the army over there.
- So he tells me, we need you, I want to talk to you,
- come over to where I live in the ghetto.
- So I came over.
- I said-- so he tells, he said, there is an organization,
- we are organized where we are arming ourselves.
- And he tells me how he gets the arms.
- And you see, some Jewish people work,
- sorting the armaments they get in the Front
- from German soldiers who are killed or Russians.
- They put it all on trucks and bring it and dump it
- And it has to be sorted--
- which are good and decent--
- and oil and unpack them and put on tags--
- or they are of the same kind to put here, to go in that.
- You know, some are--
- So he said, these people, they take apart and bring in parts.
- And the Jewish police--
- at the ghetto were Jewish police who
- had to examine for the Germans-- you know,
- there was one German and 10 Jewish policeman.
- They examine that the Jews don't smuggle in food--
- bread and butter.
- You know, this, they were.
- So anyhow-- and there they are in connection
- with the Jewish police.
- And they make them that they are not examined-- and he said,
- we need to put it together on that time.
- So I said, I feel like it's so dangerous, I would-- oh yeah,
- and I asked him, what will you do with it?
- He said, we won't do anything.
- But he said, the Front is coming.
- And he said, it might come a time when the Russians are here
- and they want to take us, or they might want to shoot us--
- we'll shoot back-- no matter a small amount,
- maybe we will save them.
- So he said, they can do it, but provided I'm by myself--
- nobody, nobody knows about it.
- Because a lot from me will that come known,
- then everybody will know.
- But he said, yes, you come.
- And he showed me what they have--
- a little in the basement.
- And where they lived--
- the best boys-- in a house away, a little house.
- It was a one-family house, while I
- lived in the ghetto in a house where there
- were about six or seven floors.
- And we were packed like herring, like sardines.
- So he showed me here, and he said, you come.
- I said, all right.
- And I started to come in workroom.
- And there we put together-- start from-- would oil it.
- You know, some I was in doubt.
- I would try out, had ammunition.
- When it was ready, there was an outhouse
- with a double wall they would take it out to and bring me
- in a certain amount and watch as when I fixed this,
- there were others, again, with the outhouse.
- And there was nothing in.
- And I was going on, and It was a routine.
- How long did you do that?
- I did it for about three or four months.
- How did you test-fire the weapons?
- I would-- they had in the basement.
- And they would knock on, make noise, and it would go,
- you know.
- And one bullet I had test-fire, even one.
- I was afraid, sometimes, it may backfire on and explode, too.
- But I would-- they had a wall of burning wood prepared,
- evidently from the person who lived there in the house.
- I used to go behind.
- How many weapons do you think you repaired in that room?
- Oh, I would say probably about 35, 40.
- And some didn't have to be repaired.
- They showed me even a machine gun, a new one.
- And they had-- and I worked from one night.
- And it became a routine.
- I would come to my place and have a bite--
- whatever there was, you know--
- and go there.
- And I worked and go out.
- And I got acquainted with the other boys.
- But I don't know--
- only one or two I know their name.
- And the others I didn't know.
- And I didn't-- it didn't interest me,
- because I didn't want to.
- And the same, too-- it worked like a conspiracy we had there.
- So one night I came as usual.
- And I saw after peering around one-half windows not dark.
- And during the war, even the Front was far away,
- especially the ghetto had to be darkened, because they
- had orders to shoot.
- And they were trigger happy.
- Oh, if they had only--
- they didn't need an excuse, they could shoot.
- But this way, for the guards-- and the guards
- were Latvians, the Latvians who volunteered for to cooperate
- with the Germans.
- They were all, they were all-- it is all
- cooperated with the Germans, the Latvians
- were mad at the Jewish people.
- So I thought, something is wrong, all right.
- I want to go back.
- And you know, he calls me.
- He calls me in.
- He said, come back, come back, come back.
- So I start to-- he comes in.
- And I got in, I get in in the house.
- At that time, there were already half of the ghetto
- or two-thirds of the ghetto was divided up for--
- Jews from, not from Latvia.
- And there were Hungarian and Germans, mostly Germans,
- from Kehl, from different cities.
- And they have the--
- again, German Jews were these for entire ghetto.
- And that Roschmann somehow trusted then
- the Germans Jews policemen and the Latvian Jews police.
- So he sent in--
- in the Latvian ghetto, the German Jewish police
- at that house.
- And I see the house when he searched.
- And they keep on searching.
- And they said, you sit down, we have orders from Roschmann
- that anybody who comes in this house not to let go back--
- to arrest.
- And I thought, hmm, something is all wrong, I'm a lost man,
- I'm lost, because I knew it never happened that you, from
- ghetto should be arrested--
- is it for food or for stealing or for--
- and it should be free.
- He-- if they send him away to the city jail, to the--
- and what they do with them-- but they never come back.
- And I thought not only that, but that my-- if they found
- something or something that--
- if they are there, you know, it is for sure about this.
- So I'm lost, a lost a lot.
- And always I made--
- it's called a Heshbon Hanefesh.
- As somebody of life and somebody what's going on, I thought,
- the fact that I will die is nothing,
- because the chances to remain alive is very slim.
- But I thought, well, they'll start torturing.
- They'll want to get out, get this.
- And it can be terrible, and I heard about the tortures.
- And I thought the best will be if I can die,
- and how can I die.
- And I was worried and worried.
- But it wasn't a worry like you have a worry today--
- you made some mistake or you missed
- a train or you made a mistake or you lost money.
- It was a different worry.
- It's the worry about dying in a torture death.
- You don't know how it feels.
- And I know it will be torture.
- And nobody comes.
- And I wonder where are all the people that lived--
- our own group.
- I wasn't thinking about living.
- I was thinking about dying--
- how can I?
- And he-- they kept us until about 11 o'clock.
- And they talk.
- Roschmann is supposed to come.
- He said he'll come--
- nothing, nothing.
- And I thought I'd--
- and then a policeman comes from there.
- Then the Russians said they should lock there this place.
- And they arrested, taking the book.
- What did he say?
- They said, what should we do with that?
- He said, I don't know.
- Anyhow, I landed in the German ghetto in a bunker.
- A bunker was an arrest house.
- We called it a bunker.
- Why, I don't know.
- It was a garage with the windows.
- They put in blocks.
- It was a block building and cement floor.
- There was some straw.
- There were a few other Jewish people.
- And when I came in, I was envying those--
- OK, those maybe will die, too.
- But I didn't think they'll torture for--
- because it was for stealing or smuggling or--
- and I thought they don't want to give out all the--
- so I thought even in death there is different categories.
- I tried to hold my jack a little ways--
- maybe I can-- nothing else, I tried to hold my breath,
- he can't-- to commit suicide.
- I wish I would have something I could cut myself.
- Then I thought, maybe when Roschmann
- will come in the next morning, maybe
- when he'll come, I'll jump and grab his eyes,
- scratch his eyes.
- Or when he'll leave me, I'll try to run,
- and he'll shoot me the back or--
- And I-- it was cold then, but nothing bothered me,
- and no sleep-- none of it.
- About 2 o'clock, I heard that they come to open the door.
- And again from the German Jewish policeman said,
- the one who is arrested in [PLACE NAME]----
- it was the address there--
- should come up.
- So he get up.
- And I thought he was going to take me to the Russian, now.
- It was about 2 o'clock in the morning.
- He takes me out, locks the door of the cell
- and said, where do you live?
- I said, [NON-ENGLISH].
- So I'll take-- we'll go in from this ghetto, this,
- and bring me this.
- OK, they let me out.
- We go-- didn't ask me my name, nothing.
- Then I go up in the fourth floor, who are sleeping three
- in a bed, climb in, lie down.
- What's going on, here?
- Why this, why, though?
- Why didn't I seeing if the other boys are arrested?
- I didn't sleep.
- And I remember in the morning, I get up, and I will go to work.
- I didn't tell anybody, no.
- I was sleeping near--
- Kaplan was his name, my best friend
- who went to trade school together,
- and we worked together.
- I didn't say but I don't-- what is going on here something is.
- And the next morning I get up, get dressed.
- And we go out.
- We had a square where we used to gather a lot in the--
- a thousand people or more where we used to gather,
- and Germans who would come and pick up which is Jewish.
- And you'd come outside, come out where we would go.
- And a guard would open the door.
- He would take us back and this, this--
- some were big units with 200 people who were
- On that square there were a bulletin board.
- And on the bulletin was written--
- a lot of people were coming, and it says that Roschmann,
- that he's giving his honor, word,
- that if the people from that--
- from that [NON-ENGLISH],, and from that little house return
- voluntarily and he find them not guilty, he'll let them go free.
- However, if they don't report, he'll
- take 50 people from ghetto for each one of them,
- and will be shot.
- And everybody was worried.
- And a lot of people didn't know what it is about.
- But some knew where the people--
- and here what happened.
- Somehow, these people from that house
- find out that there will be a search or something.
- And they did not come to the ghetto.
- They hid in town.
- The town was easy to hid.
- You know, everybody could escape.
- However, for me, for example, there was nowhere.
- No, no, no Gentile would take in and save the Jew
- because, first, they didn't like them.
- Second, it was dangerous, dangerous.
- It was forbidden.
- If the Germans found that a Gentile was hiding a Jew,
- he was shot together with that whom he was hiding.
- Well, didn't Ferk work with you?
- Huh?
- Didn't Ferk work with you?
- Sure.
- Firk, yeah.
- Did he report to work the next day, when he was--
- No, no, no.
- Now, the day before, yes.
- You see, it was the evening.
- The next day he didn't report.
- I see.
- No.
- He wasn't-- and so what happened, they hid.
- They found out, and they hid in town.
- But some people, they were from Riga.
- They knew evidently what they were hiding.
- And they went out to talk to them and told them.
- And it wasn't-- they decided to come back, and they showed up.
- And Roschmann arrested them.
- Nobody of them came out.
- Not only that, they started, as the days went on,
- to arrest all the young people who participated,
- who were bringing it in.
- And I was thinking.
- I knew what is going on, because I knew this house
- and I knew what we were doing.
- And I knew my deal, that I was repairing this.
- And I thought Firk, for Firk my friend is there.
- And I knew the Germans were torturing them,
- and I better get out.
- And the fact that they were arresting others,
- and I was waiting for my turn.
- And again I though, what should I do?
- There is a chance I could escape and hide myself in one place
- there were--
- he had horses.
- There weren't trucks or cars like here.
- There were a lot of horse and buggies there.
- And I could climb up in his attic,
- there where he keeps his hay.
- But I thought, how long can I be there if nobody supports me?
- And I could, I thought, maybe by my benefactor, you know.
- Then I thought, but who knows if he'll want it,
- and who knows if it's right for me to put--
- he has a family.
- He had his wife.
- And he had a daughter with her husband.
- You had not seen him since that day he took you to the ghetto.
- One time I did see him.
- And I'll tell you about it.
- I was about to tell you before.
- So, and I always decided not.
- Then I though, where we were working,
- the Germans had a machine gun, a Russian, you know.
- And it was hanging like a--
- like somebody collects arms.
- And it was loaded with bullets, on the wall.
- And I thought, if I see Roschmann coming,
- I would mow him down, him and the Germans, all Germans.
- And still, it wasn't a fast decision
- because what will happen to the other Jews?
- This machine gun was where you were working?
- Yeah, and out of the ghetto.
- They let a loaded machine gun in there?
- Right.
- Because they trusted the Jews more than anybody.
- And I want to tell you another thing.
- Roschmann did not arrest any of the Jews anymore in ghetto.
- He wouldn't go in in the Latvian ghetto.
- All the arrested people, he used to go
- in the German units, where the Jews work,
- picked them up there.
- And it was there, a room, where I was working so situated--
- Was that because he was afraid that there were weapons there?
- Oh, yeah.
- Yeah.
- After he found out that his weapons, they were there.
- That I could see who comes in in the front door.
- First it was a bell.
- And I could keep open in our room, a little bit, the door.
- I was-- and I thought, I will open down on this.
- And it was, as I said, such feelings,
- such that the danger is here, that it--
- that it'll come to a point where, well, of life and death.
- And you were waiting for that moment.
- And I remember it was--
- it is hard to describe that feeling.
- We were-- our feeling in ghetto were
- like we are sheep in a slaughterhouse, where they'll
- pull out today you and today-- but there was an even worse.
- He never came to arrest me.
- And I don't know why.
- I don't know how.
- Probably Firk probably didn't give me out.
- He was the one who knew.
- And the other boys didn't even know my name.
- There was another man I knew who was arrested.
- And we worked together.
- He was a chemical engineer.
- And somehow he knew how to make the--
- not bombs.
- He would make powder, you know, something,
- gunpowder with cotton or something.
- And he was arrested.
- He was such a nice man.
- What was his name?
- Stober.
- Stober.
- And here it seemed to me I may be one more from the group who
- were active, I mean alive, and that's by miracle.
- Now, you continued to work at the police station.
- Who replaced Firk?
- Oh, yeah.
- Oh, here I'll tell you.
- That's a good question.
- Now, I knew what was going on.
- Firk didn't show up.
- So this German, our master, asked where is Firk.
- So we say he was arrested.
- You know what?
- He got dressed, and got in, and got to that--
- to the ghetto, to Roschmann.
- He said we need him.
- And he was a good boy, that man, very, very talented.
- He said we need him to work.
- And he said, I'll get him out.
- He says to us.
- And he went.
- And he comes back.
- And he said, I couldn't get him out, he said,
- because it isn't for stealing.
- He said they said it's political.
- And then he says in the same, he said, you know,
- maybe he was listening to the radio, and he was spreading it.
- And he said, you know, it is forbidden,
- even us, if they would find out that we
- listen on the radio, foreign radio, they would shoot us.
- So he didn't know.
- He thought it is from the radio.
- And they didn't replace Firk.
- There were orders.
- They gave over the--
- and shortly after, they liquidated the ghetto
- and sent us to the--
- Now, while you were working at the police station,
- did you see-- say you saw your next door neighbor?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- That happened, I started to tell you,
- when we had a truck driver, you know,
- and he wanted to be nice to me.
- And he said, what can I do for you, sir?
- So I said, you know, I have a friend.
- Take me in the truck and let me off.
- I want to sit in for a while, and I'll come out.
- He said, yeah.
- So he got-- drove me up to that place.
- And I jumped out, and I came in.
- And I tell him, trust me.
- They didn't know of him, I'm still alive and this.
- And it seemed to me, you know-- and I
- don't know, is it true or somehow, or my imagination,
- that this woman, his wife said, if things get very bad,
- he said you come over here.
- We'll hide you.
- And this I don't remember that.
- Did she said, or didn't.
- You know, it was 40 years ago.
- But they were very pleased.
- And they asked me how, what.
- Oh, yeah, and she took out everything,
- what she had in the refrigerator, some [INAUDIBLE]
- and things like that-- loaded me up.
- I got in, he took me back.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- But then, next time, you know, I'll
- tell you that isn't finished with that.
- And then you continued to work at the police station
- until they liquidated the ghetto.
- And they liquidated the ghetto.
- How did your job end at the police station?
- They just tell you one day not to come back?
- One day, yeah.
- It was everything suddenly.
- And you never--
- In fact, they didn't have to tell me.
- No.
- It was from the ghetto.
- When we came to sleep, the ghetto is closed.
- They-- no more Germans can come to pick you up.
- It happened.
- They didn't know either, the police.
- Is that the last time you saw [? the master? ?]
- Yeah.
- You know, Irving, before we begin
- with after the ghetto was dismantled,
- you mentioned to me off the tape the last time that there
- was an incident where you had a gun, actually had a gun.
- Yeah.
- Would you please tell me about that
- before we begin with the dismantling of the ghetto?
- Well, I had the-- when I was repairing, I had guns.
- But I had a gun when we weren't even organized.
- And how did that happen?
- Next-- you have it on?
- Sure.
- Yeah.
- Next to my apartment lived a couple, a childless couple.
- And he was an elderly man.
- Was that the one you had worked for?
- No.
- No.
- It was a different couple.
- Yeah.
- What was their name?
- Katzen.
- Katzen.
- And he was working for a timber company.
- You know, in Latvia we had a lot of timber.
- So with the lumber men in the timber,
- he used to pay them their wages and this.
- So he had the gun.
- Usually, in Latvia, a gone, had only the police or officials.
- The population had no guns.
- There was no, not, no, no license like here.
- Very few who went hunting, they had probably small guns.
- But he had a revolver because he was
- handling money in the woods.
- So when the war broke out and he lost his job--
- all the Jews lost their jobs.
- So he had a gun, and he was probably 60 years old, gray,
- maybe [INAUDIBLE].
- So he said to me-- we were next door.
- He said to me, here, you want the gun?
- Do with it what you want or hide it from me.
- So for a while I kept it.
- Then I was afraid, you know.
- So I took it down.
- We had, downstairs-- it was an apartment building.
- In the basement, everybody had--
- Was this before your brother had left?
- Yeah.
- So he knew you had it too?
- No, no, no.
- that was not-- that is after my brother have left.
- No.
- No.
- So I had a gun.
- So the Nazis were already there when you had the gun?
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- The Nazis were there.
- But I thought sometimes maybe at night
- I will go out and kill a Nazi, but it was so--
- the responsibility was so big.
- If a Jew would have killed a Nazi,
- I don't know what it would happen.
- But later on, they used to take hundred for one.
- If a Jew committed a crime, they would take hostages.
- So that is a small episode.
- But the fact is, I hid it.
- And I thought I'll use it, and I decided against it, very easy.
- But naturally, I had guns later on when
- I was fixing guns in ghetto, when we were organizing.
- So that would be the episode with a gun.
- I consider it a small episode, just a chance.
- But I wasn't that brave, and nobody
- would be that brave because it would be a lot of trouble.
- So now let's-- so this chapter is finished.
- And now we'll start when they liquidated the ghetto.
- And that is very interesting.
- There are very interesting moments.
- And a story, you could write a book by this itself.
- So at that time, Roschmann was in Riga ghetto.
- And the order was to liquidate the ghetto.
- So what did they do?
- They put a few signs that some people
- with trades or on the ages, are registered there.
- Some people already were working for the Wehrmacht.
- It was the army, the German army.
- They were working there, should register with them.
- And I, at that time, was working in the ghetto.
- You know, I was an electrician and I employed a few people,
- you know, people who had shorts of this,
- small repair or appliances.
- So when the ghetto was liquidated,
- I started to look for a job outside.
- And it so happened--
- oh, no, no, no.
- You know, I'm mixed up.
- At that time, I was working for the ordnungspolizei.
- Right.
- Yeah.
- So entire job, the little jobs, you know, they stopped.
- But big jobs, where a lot of Jews worked with the Wehrmacht,
- they--
- it's called in kaserne, you know.
- Kaserne means kaserne.
- You know what kaserne means, barracks for army.
- So they took the Jews and gave them a barrack
- where the army was.
- And they were working.
- And there was a lot of work for the Jews, all kind of work.
- In fact, the Jews replaced the German soldiers from the front.
- And they had 100s, and 200s, and 300,
- and they utilized in offices, whatever you can think of.
- Behind the lines they utilized Jewish people.
- But here what happened.
- One German, and I don't know how,
- and he was a very interesting man.
- His name was Scherwitz.
- He put out that all Jewish mechanics and tradesmen
- should register separately.
- He was an SS man.
- SS, you know, that Hitler stormtroopers.
- So I went and registered there.
- Anyhow, he took over a Jewish plant.
- It was a textile plant.
- He took over.
- The machinery textile, the Germans
- didn't need for the war machinery.
- But they needed the cast iron.
- All the machinery-- and he took 1,200 Jews.
- And I was among them too.
- All the machinery, first we cleaned
- rooms, big rooms, textiles.
- It was a manufacturing plant.
- Broke the machinery throughout, and with a sledge hammer
- broke it, loaded it in the big tractor trailers,
- and they took it to Germany.
- And after the rooms were cleaned, with the Germans,
- you know, it was working fast, and trucks
- were coming on the newest and shiniest machines,
- broken down and made scrap.
- Then we cleaned out the rooms.
- So one big room they made for dormitories,
- were sleeping quarters.
- And there were a lot of good workers
- who built, the beds and--
- how do you call it in barracks, the beds?
- Bunks.
- Bunks.
- And some were making straw sacks, some blankets.
- And it was-- so he set up a big tailor shop.
- And the tailor shop used to repair clothing, German,
- for it, and make new ones.
- A big shoemaker shop, big--
- there were a lot of shoemakers, Jewish shoemaker and tailors,
- and printing, auto repair shops.
- Some they left over from the textiles to make socks,
- knitting.
- I was mechanical things, all kinds.
- I was assigned with a group to fix sewing machines.
- You know, tailors-- there were about 150 or more sewing
- machines.
- All the time it breaks.
- So one man was--
- he was with a seamsters, with the sewing people.
- And I was downstairs.
- We had a little shop.
- There was a goldsmith, you know.
- And he was a good man.
- He used to make some-- melt gold to make all kind fancy rings,
- fancy lighters, all for the Germans--
- and typewriters, bicycles repair.
- And I think that was all.
- And-- oh, yeah.
- And that Scherwitz-- and he was a marvelous man.
- In fact, we were wondering.
- Some gave him a nickname, "the Father."
- Some said he's a hidden Jew.
- He looked Jewish, black hair and--
- you know.
- And he was so shrewd, and his ways were--
- weren't German ways.
- You know?
- Then, food-- oh, yeah, then [INAUDIBLE] a washing machines
- he set up to wash clothing.
- He had a butcher, butcher's, you know.
- And we belonged actually to the Kaiserwald concentration camp.
- And there was terrible.
- There were-- the Germans brought from Germany criminals.
- And they were the leaders of the ghetto--
- of the concentration camp.
- So all the Jews belong still to the concentration camp,
- after from the ghetto.
- But we were like a state in a state.
- He used to bring, officially, the food.
- But always additional food we had.
- Margarine and meat even we used to have.
- And there were tailors.
- One time he brought bales of clothing, make for us uniforms.
- Before we were wearing, with a--
- jail people uniforms.
- He didn't like it.
- He didn't.
- He said, I don't want it here.
- And the tailors--
- Where was the concentration camp you were living in?
- No, I-- we didn't go.
- I didn't go.
- They, when they liquidated the ghetto, part--
- those they couldn't use went to the concentration camp.
- Those, the people who knew trades, went there.
- So you were living at the textile plant.
- Is that--
- Right.
- I see.
- Living at the textile plant.
- Some people who worked for the Wehrmacht, for the army,
- went with the army.
- But under arrest, went to the concentration camp.
- All right.
- So-- so we didn't wear anymore those clothes.
- In fact, later on, a high official from the SS
- came and he saw us.
- They balled him out, why he did it.
- And part of it, he had stopped making those uniforms.
- And we were working and had it real good.
- And he was-- and this German was living with us in the camp,
- only he had a separate little house.
- But he was there.
- And he had two more Germans, assistants.
- And around this was made a fence from boards.
- And on top, you know, with a wire.
- And outside were Latvian SS guards, the collaborators.
- But they were not-- he made so they were not
- allowed to go in, only outside.
- And there was a big, big rooms, maybe
- it were that place had 15 or 20 acres or maybe more.
- We walk around.
- We used to walk around after work.
- And all of us, we never suffered hunger.
- What was your job, Irving?
- I was in the shop for fixing typewriters and sewing machines
- what they brought down.
- And I will tell you what happened.
- And we had it pretty good.
- How did you learn how to fix typewriters
- and sewing machines?
- Oh, I went to a trade school before.
- And, you know, I--
- I thought it was electrical.
- Well, but I was a handyman.
- I learned this, and I fixed watches.
- And I fixed a lot of things.
- I see.
- So-- so we lived there pretty good.
- And there was one time, and he used to do--
- oh, yeah.
- And I'll tell it.
- He approached the Jews, you know, so close.
- There were a few from Riga who studied in Germany,
- and they knew perfect German and the German ways of life.
- He became with them friends.
- You know, he would talk to them.
- And all over this was a Jewish manager.
- His name was Sheinberg.
- Then there was another Jew, and his name was Rudolf.
- And listen, well that--
- that Jew wore a tie and a shirt and lived in a separate room,
- too, with his wife, on the premises.
- And he used to go out to the high officials.
- You know, in Riga it was a big center, but from Berlin,
- from the big shots.
- You know, Eichmann was there, and Muller used to come.
- If they wanted something special, suit or this,
- this Jew would go and take their measurements.
- Oh, yeah.
- And he was a German-educated too.
- His German was perfect.
- And his looks was perfect.
- So he was the middle man.
- And we lived pretty good.
- Oh, yeah.
- And that Scherwitz was acquainted
- with some Jewish people.
- And some rich people had probably hidden valuables
- in town, what they lived.
- He would send out somebody, and they would pick up valuables.
- And he would trade.
- And with the Germans, that Scherwitz, used to schmear too.
- When a big shot would come, and he
- needs some, the commander of the whole Eastern sector,
- he would bring them boots, new boots
- with fur, which during the wartime-- you know,
- in America you can buy it in every store.
- But during the wartime, it was--
- you couldn't buy anything.
- And nobody was making something special.
- In there we could order up all kind of their uniforms
- with fur inside.
- It was cold.
- And here what happened.
- One-- here I'm coming to an episode, what happened.
- Roschmann used to come.
- And he, with the Germans, he would come and see
- how we produce and make nice things.
- He would look like any other man.
- And-- and something we were building.
- They were building-- everything was going on.
- There were Jewish masons and building a building.
- And some from outside brought in gravel, sand and gravel,
- a load.
- This is what happened.
- And at that time, Roschmann, an assistant, was at Lenta.
- At our place was called Lenta.
- And when, to dump the sand and gravel, a box with eggs
- fell out.
- And for the Germans, that the Jews,
- first, they couldn't understand why we look--
- why we don't look undernourished there, you know.
- And when they saw it the eggs came out,
- oh, the Jews are trading this.
- So anyhow, they notified Roschmann.
- And he came on, and he said, what is going on here?
- And I don't know what Scherwitz told him.
- But anyhow [AUDIO OUT] the eggs.
- And it was a Jew from Prague, Czechoslovakia.
- We had some German Jews there because they brought to Riga,
- I told you before, Jews from all Europe.
- And Scherwitz-- so after Roschmann
- left, Scherwitz called in us together,
- and he used to make appells during lunch.
- And he would speak.
- So he said, Roschmann was here.
- And he said we made a bad thing, a [NON-ENGLISH],, a bad thing.
- And he said, Roschmann--
- --who send him, a Czechoslovakian Jew,
- to the concentration camp.
- And he said, that Jewish boy said,
- if you send me to that concentration camp,
- he said, I'll tell everything what's going on.
- You know, what's going on, that we were buying with Scherwitz'
- approval.
- In fact, he used to help us get the food additional.
- And that was for the Germans, for Scherwitz, it would be--
- it would cost him the job.
- And that job is like that.
- For him, the job-- he didn't go to the front,
- and then he was promoted so fast.
- You know, he started out like a sergeant.
- Within three or four months, he was already
- a lieutenant in the SS because he had a good tongue,
- and he was going to the high officials and [INAUDIBLE]
- the production.
- So he got scared.
- So about 10 o'clock, when we were in bed, the oberjude,
- Mr Sheinberg-- not the one with the tie--
- came in and he said--
- well, we were sleeping in a big dormitory.
- He said, you know what happened?
- I don't remember anymore the name from that Czechoslovakian
- Jew.
- He said they were working on the roof.
- He fell down, and he was killed.
- However, we found out on the next day that Scherwitz said he
- cannot send them to the ghetto, he said.
- Otherwise, the whole thing will blow up.
- And he ordered-- and he didn't want to kill himself,
- so he ordered--
- there were other German boys who were working.
- Oh, they are working with the masons, with the masonry.
- He ordered them to eliminate him, you know.
- And it was a very shock, but I'm telling
- about the whole episode.
- So I heard that Scherwitz made them work when it became dark.
- As a punishment, he made him work, him work,
- the whole group in the masonry, later.
- But he gave them a notion to kill that man.
- And when he was bending down, somebody--
- I know that man.
- I don't remember the names that hit him with the shovel,
- with the flat over the head.
- So that's one episode.
- Now, after that time was going on, and we were working.
- And it was pretty--
- still the best place.
- Well, did Rauchman, was he satisfied that the--
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Well, he said it was an accident.
- He fell down off the roof.
- They know we were working and busy.
- And you know, German-- the German,
- he had evidently told him he punished him.
- This he was sending him this, and he fell down.
- Oh, yeah, they delivered the body, and the body had a flat--
- and we kept on working.