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Oral history interview with Irving Lebow

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2017.9.1 | RG Number: RG-50.965.0001

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    Oral history interview with Irving Lebow
    Transcript
    It is Sunday, October 12, 1980.
    And this is Stanley Bursch speaking
    at the home of Irving Lebow.
    The purpose of this tape recording
    is to preserve for the records of Temple Shalom of Wheeling,
    West Virginia, the experiences of one of its congregants
    during the Holocaust that so affected
    the Jewish people and their history in a manner
    comparable perhaps only to the exodus and the rebirth
    of the modern state of Israel.
    Here's what I think, I can't go right how it started, you know?
    I think I should go a little ahead.
    You know.
    Well, let's go back.
    Where were you living?
    Yeah, in Riga.
    You know.
    I can't start with my childhood, but that would be so long.
    And--
    What did your father do for a living?
    My father was a leather worker.
    He made saddles, saddles for--
    riding saddles.
    What was his name?
    Leibowitz.
    How many children in your family?
    We were six children, five boys and one girl.
    Did you live in a home comparable to this, one
    that we're talking about on Miller Street in Wheeling
    in '62?
    No, no, no.
    We lived in a shtetl, you know, in a shtetl.
    You know what, in a small town.
    And it was a, I would say, a ghetto, a little town.
    All the homes were made out of log cabins because it was--
    our country is an agricultural country.
    And there were plenty of woods and logs.
    Not only that, in my time, there weren't sawmills who
    could cut and form the logs.
    But some of the log homes were quite big and comfortable too.
    And outside, they fixed it up with finishing boards,
    you know, what they still get it, and which was expensive.
    And inside was with--
    how do you call it-- with caulk, with like cement, you
    know, smoothing the walls.
    Some of the homes were nice, but they were log cabins.
    And they were good because it was a cold climate,
    and it's good insulation.
    You know, log.
    So this.
    But if I would tell you all the details,
    you know, I remember from my childhood,
    from my early childhood and then--
    You erased some.
    You're erasing.
    You're erasing.
    OK.
    When I remember how I made my first steps or even before,
    I can't.
    I said I'm imagining, you know.
    And I remember when I--
    Maybe we could disconnect [INAUDIBLE]..
    Yeah.
    And so-- but here lately, you know how it came and I said,
    the father is right because there
    are such children, who are working with the well
    brains, who can't remember.
    I remember a lot.
    I remember how I was weaned.
    I remember how my mother used to diaper me and this.
    But let's not go into this.
    It was primarily an all-Jewish community.
    Yeah.
    All-Jewish community-- in fact, the mayor was a Jewish man.
    And the post office was government.
    So the mail carrier spoke Jewish like any Jew.
    You couldn't distinguish.
    And a few non-Jews who lived around the city,
    they spoke Jewish like Jews.
    They grew up with the Jews.
    What was the name of the city?
    Varaklani.
    Varaklani.
    It was there used to be a song Varaklani is nine [NON-ENGLISH]
    from a bahn.
    A bahn is a railroad.
    We were about nine miles away from the railroad.
    And here, 9 miles by car is nothing to--
    it is a home, you know.
    But there there weren't any cars.
    The first time I saw a car was when I was 14 years old.
    So at the railroad--
    I didn't see a railroad when I was about that age.
    A railroad, a steam engine I didn't
    see when I was about that age.
    So when we lived there, like it was little Israel.
    And there were about three synagogues.
    And it so happened that one synagogue, which
    was called the Green Beis Medrash because it
    was painted green, was across from my house.
    And when I was a toddler, or three or four years old,
    we kids used to play in that synagogue
    because there were no playgrounds
    from around the kids.
    And that synagogue was open all day.
    And that, the bima, what you used to read the scrolls,
    was in the middle, fenced in and elevated.
    And we used to run there and play.
    Were you being trained as a leatherer by your father?
    No.
    No.
    No.
    I started-- and here again, in the shul being
    near the synagogue.
    And in the synagogue, there used to be--
    the people used to study, the old people with gray beard.
    And I would always sit and listen.
    And then my father passed away when I was about five
    and a half or six years old.
    And I had a brother.
    And he was-- when I was about five, he was 15 years old.
    And he started to go to the Lubavitch yeshiva
    in those days.
    And my father, before--
    my mother used to tell me how my father would
    say now I'm working for to support
    this student in the yeshiva.
    And when my father died, he came home
    when I was about four and a half years old,
    four and a half or five.
    That was considered an honor, wasn't it,
    to support a student?
    Right.
    Right.
    For him, yeah.
    So he start teaching me pre-school,
    the alphabet, the Hebrew.
    And I was a kid, and I learned to read.
    And today kids, from television they went there.
    Three years old, they read.
    Some kids are now reading at four years old and five.
    They go to libraries already.
    In the olden days, it wasn't like that.
    So as a kid, a admired kid, and the old men
    used to come when I was come in shul, open the Chumash
    and say, come and read.
    And I would read, and they all open eyes.
    So this is my youth, went up like that.
    When I was about--
    yeah, when I was about six or seven years old, six years old
    to be correct, my brother--
    again, I didn't have a father.
    My mother was a housewife and at home.
    So my brother took over the responsibility of raising me.
    He took over me to school, and it was a public school,
    all the Jewish--
    Jewish, all teachers, all kids.
    There were no Christian.
    A non-Jewish kid couldn't go in because it was all in Yiddish.
    He took me over, and he mentioned to the teacher,
    you know.
    And there you prescribed--
    not prescribed-- brought the child to school, registered.
    You registered, had to register the child.
    So my brother, oh, he can read already.
    So the teacher takes out a book, and I read it.
    Oh, she said, oh, he can go in second grade,
    and I was six years old.
    Why, second grader were already eight years
    old because school started, in those days, and seven years.
    And then I felt already, as young
    as I was, quite proud on this.
    And before we left the school, the teacher calls back.
    She said, oh, maybe not.
    He'll-- maybe he should start in first grade with all the kids.
    The school was in Yiddish, you said.
    In Yiddish, all in Yiddish.
    Not Hebrew, but Yiddish.
    Not Hebrew, now, not--
    Yiddish.
    Did you have Yiddish newspapers?
    Yeah.
    It used to come from Riga, but very few people
    prescribed the Jewish paper.
    It used to go-- a paper used to go from end to end.
    I want to tell you that the living
    standard was so low there because every penny
    counted there.
    People didn't subscribe to a paper because it was costing,
    let's say, like here a paper $0.15 or $0.25.
    And it was only in the capital, Riga, came out a Jewish paper.
    Frimorgn.
    It was called Frimorgn.
    Was there a large Jewish population in Riga?
    In Latvia-- yeah, in Riga were about 40,000 people.
    How many in the village where you lived?
    About 2,500.
    When was the first time that you sort of
    got the feeling something was wrong in Europe?
    Oh, then we have to jump.
    The difference between Jews and non-Jew I felt very early
    already, probably as soon as I started to understand--
    10 years old.
    How did you-- how did you understand that if you were
    living with all Jewish people?
    Well, listening, listening what they say.
    And then farmers, Christian farmers used to come in town.
    In town was a market place, and there they used to sell--
    the shtetl, you know, we needed wood.
    Burning wood, that was our fuel to heat our homes and to--
    hay for our cow.
    Each one had a cow, or two families had a cow.
    Hay and wood and chickens--
    I don't know why they didn't raise chickens-- and eggs we
    had to buy from farmers.
    Then, like peas and beans and this, from farmers, you know.
    It was in stores too, and it was back like here.
    It was.
    But people were-- potatoes-- also, we all had gardens.
    But for potatoes it wasn't big enough.
    So goyim used to come.
    Not only the-- Jewish people used
    to have a horse and buggy, go out in the surrounding places
    and buy and bring, or fish.
    There were fishers.
    There weren't Jewish fishers.
    But Jews-- there was a fish market or store.
    And we, as I said before, we lived--
    we supported each other, but it was small.
    For example, there was a store, herring
    only, herring and make--
    people ate a lot of herring.
    Or there were a stand from sunflower seeds,
    and these-- very poor.
    A hardware store, it wasn't like here.
    We had iron, you know, what a farmer need
    to fix this is wagon or sled.
    Then was a Jewish blacksmith, who
    was horseshoeing horses or building for farmers--
    cobblers, tailors, storekeepers.
    And the town was built and it had two churches,
    I think one Catholic.
    And I was too young to remember if the other, I think,
    was probably a Protestant church.
    And then between the churches was a big free place,
    and there used to be a market Friday.
    And the farmers used to bring all their produce, berries
    and this.
    And the Jewish people would buy and sell on that.
    When did I feel the difference between Jew and non-Jew?
    Hearing the conversation, and then we
    Jewish kids had to go out swimming.
    There was a little creek about a mile away.
    We had to go through farmer's territory.
    Sometimes farmer's boy would let their dogs on us
    or sometimes they would throw stones.
    And still, we knew it, that it was
    a different, a different feeling between Jews and non-Jews.
    Not only that, when I was older I
    felt that we are like guests in their place.
    They made us feel that everything that we live,
    we live--
    the store what we have, the goy would like to have it,
    the Latvians, because they considered nationalist.
    Latvia, it was their country, and we are like strangers.
    All the time it was a feeling.
    How long did your family live in Latvia?
    In Latvia, we lived until the Second World War.
    No, I mean before--
    In that little town?
    Yeah, I mean before.
    Before I started going to school,
    about when I was about 16 years old.
    OK.
    No, what I'm interested in, how long
    did your father and grandfather and his father,
    how long had they been living in Latvia?
    Oh, oh, oh, In Latvia?
    As far as I know, my grandfather lived in Latvia.
    So at least three generations.
    Three generations, right.
    Right.
    And I think, if I would tell you details, again it would take--
    I can tell you from six and seven and eight and 10 and 15
    years old.
    You began to feel the difference in the--
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    However, we were so used to it, it didn't bother us.
    Somehow, we knew that they don't love us.
    We knew we are like a second-class citizens.
    But we were built in our hearts that we are as good as
    or better as they are.
    In fact, we used to call them, as little boys--
    I didn't know the Latvian language, but one thing
    we would know, to call the Christian boys pig--
    pig shepherds.
    That was our-- when they did something to us,
    we used to run away and say "pig shepherd" or something
    to downgrade them.
    And so--
    How did you deal with the farmers and the Christians
    at the market if you didn't know the Latvian language?
    Well, I was little.
    Our parents knew somewhat.
    I see.
    But Yiddish was generally the language spoken.
    Only Yiddish.
    Only Yiddish.
    And Hebrew, what we learned is from the Bible.
    But we used to translate.
    We started on the Genesis.
    Each word we used to translate.
    In fact, you'll find in the Sholem Aleichem's books,
    he describes how a student, when he started cheder,
    it wasn't a shul.
    We had the shul and the cheder.
    That Hebrew we learned with a rabbi.
    And each word-- [HEBREW],, in the beginning,
    [HEBREW] created, Elohim, God, and so on.
    So that was all.
    However, after-- oh, yeah, when we got older, in our school,
    about when we got in the fourth, fifth grade,
    we had to learn Latvian.
    It was by the government.
    You have to learn the country's language.
    Then we were Russian because Russia were on our border,
    and so there lived a lot of Russians.
    In fact, 12% of the population were Russian.
    And Germans were on our other border.
    And then Latvia was ruled by Germany before 1918,
    before the First World War.
    So a lot in the big cities, not in our shtetl, spoke German.
    So in the fifth, sixth, seventh grade,
    we used to get always new languages.
    And Latvian, for example, we had an hour every day.
    Russian we had two or three times a week,
    and so with German.
    But in school, what we learned the language
    was not enough, the same as in America.
    In America, you start the foreign language
    in high school, French or Spanish.
    If they don't practice it, after two or three years
    it's forgotten or half forgotten.
    So that was with us too.
    However, here what happened.
    When I was about 15 years old, the same brother who
    was teaching me, I mentioned in the beginning,
    he left for Israel when he was about 18 years old,
    as a halutz.
    And in about seven or eight, he came for a visit.
    And at that time, I have graduated from public school.
    By the way, I was a first-grade student.
    But in my days, where we knew--
    the Jewish people themselves knew we have a Jewish problem.
    We are-- we are overpopulated by ourselves.
    The government doesn't absorb us.
    There was not a Jewish person, man or woman,
    employed by the government in a office or the railroad.
    The railroad belonged to the government,
    or post office belonged to the government, or telephone, which
    telephone didn't employ much in those days.
    But like here, you get government jobs.
    No.
    And at that time, actually, it was after the Balfour
    Declaration that England promised
    Israel to be a homeland.
    And not only that, before that even we
    knew we have to do something because our youth already
    didn't have what to do.
    And in a store in the small town,
    it wasn't enough for the father or mother to attend.
    So there were Zionism.
    In fact, in school, our teacher already was-- our principal,
    he was a Bundist.
    He was a leftie.
    And here what it was.
    There were two groups how to solve the Jewish problem.
    One said we should go and build Israel and be
    a nation like any nation.
    And others, and here in shul our principal
    was like that-- he said, the Jewish problem
    can't be solved with Israel.
    Israel is too small and so on and so forth.
    Socialism-- have to fight so that we should be accepted
    and all minorities should be accepted
    and be able to live with the goyim and be equal citizens.
    It appealed, you know.
    So a lot of the kids, we understood already it.
    Was lectured every day because it was
    a very, very acute question.
    So my family were Zionist.
    As I said, my older brother, who was 18 years old,
    went to Israel as a halutzim.
    I had two more brothers.
    They went to Israel too.
    What were their names?
    Named Morris and Louie.
    Are they still in Israel?
    No, no, no.
    They are all dead.
    They lived in Israel in the very hard times,
    and they came to America.
    But they died.
    See, I was the youngest.
    If they would be alive, they would be already probably 85,
    90 years old.
    So these are-- my brother went to Israel.
    And he stayed there probably-- he went in '21,
    and he came for a visit at the time when I graduated.
    And here what it was.
    In those days, Jews too used to go to yeshivas and study,
    and study, and there was a--
    not to go to school anymore.
    Work is important, doing with your hands.
    And they would say, that's why we are hated,
    because we are-- we never do hard work.
    And the goyim used to think so too.
    So we were-- I was so saturated with that that I didn't--
    oh, yeah, and before graduating, this same principal
    gave us to write a theme, what I'm going to do after school.
    And I told him I'm going to learn a trade.
    So with me he was saying that--
    no education, but with me, he came to my mother
    and said, no, I should learn farther.
    I should learn.
    I should keep on studying.
    However, my brother came.
    And in Israel was too, he said, we need by hand--
    with hand to work because, he said,
    we have doctors who dig ditches and who work in [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And we have too many and other production of educated people.
    So it was decided that I should go to a trade school.
    And sure enough--
    I didn't have my opinion because, living in the town--
    and a lot of even kids who live in big cities,
    you don't know what you want.
    So I listened to my brother.
    And they took me to Riga, and I went to a trade school
    at daytime.
    And then I went to a high school in the evenings.
    And a lot of people couldn't understand how I can manage it.
    The trade school was from 8:00 till 4:00 or 5:00.
    And evening school was from 7:00 to 11:00, the high school.
    And the high school was a Latvian already, in Riga.
    And there I had-- for the first time,
    I had a hard time with the Latvian language
    because what I learned in school wasn't enough.
    However, I managed it, and I graduated
    about the same time, high school in evening school
    and a trade school at daytime.
    What trade were you being taught?
    Electrical-- electricity, wiring, winding armatures,
    transformers.
    And in fact, after I graduated I worked in a radio plant.
    And I had another brother, which was only about five years older
    than I am, who he was already in Riga and working in a store.
    In fact, when I graduated, I worked in the same place.
    It was a radio and photo store.
    And they started to manufacture radios.
    In those days, radios weren't like today.
    It was the crystal detectors, you call.
    It isn't for your time.
    There were no tubes.
    With a crystal, with a wire, you know, you touched.
    And anyhow, and this store developed very greatly
    because they were started from the beginning
    and were growing with the technology.
    And we used to import all our technology
    from Germany and England.
    And our country, and it was a agricultural,
    we exported butter and bacon and lumber.
    And we lived pretty good.
    And now we'll jump.
    So I graduated, and I got a job, and I was quite successful
    in my job.
    And then came the time when we had
    the conscription to the army.
    I had to go.
    Everybody had to go to the army.
    And I went away for two years to the army.
    How old were you?
    I was then about 20 years old.
    So for two years I went to the army.
    This was about in 1938.
    Was there any-- what were you?
    What was your job in the army?
    In the army?
    Well, we had--
    I was in the infantry.
    And in our army, in comparison what I hear here,
    it was-- here is like you live in a hotel.
    We had basic training all the time.
    For two years?
    For two years, yeah.
    It happened to be I was in a bicycle
    regiment in the summertime and a ski regiment in wintertime.
    We were two Jewish boys in the whole business.
    Were there any Jewish officers.
    No.
    No.
    No.
    There was one Jewish policeman in Riga, and that's all--
    no officers.
    No.
    In fact-- and there too, we were so discriminated
    but, as I said, we were used to it.
    For example, any Latvian who went to high school,
    after three months used to get a--
    it's called a strip that he was already--
    next to a soldier, what is that in the army?
    Maybe a private or--
    Private, something like that, automatically.
    Not the Jewish, you know.
    After 24 months, we didn't get it.
    And one, we had a lawyer and this-- nothing, you know.
    But we were used to it.
    As I said, in our hearts we thought
    we are as good as or better.
    In fact, we thought we are better.
    So after--
    Did anybody complain or say any--
    No.
    No.
    No.
    There it was not because it would not help.
    And we didn't want to rock the boat.
    No, there wasn't such a thing as complaining.
    Oh, yeah, and our system was a democratic.
    We had representatives in the-- and it's called the Sejm,
    you know.
    The representatives in the government--
    elected.
    And in fact, one was a very influential man.
    And his name is Dubina, and he was known all over Europe.
    He was with a beard and a rabbi.
    There was another, a rabbi representative, Nurock.
    He was then in Israel, in the Knesset.
    Nurock was a-- very old-timers probably would remember him.
    He was such an influential man, when
    the Russians came in they arrested him
    and he never came back.
    Well, Nurock was arrested too, but he survived and then went
    to Israel.
    There is a lot of things what I will tell you.
    We might go back later on because otherwise it
    would be days.
    We'll see.
    We might even write a book.
    You and your wife can take it over.
    You'll see, it will be interesting episodes.
    But this is, since you need it for the children,
    so we'll go now again.
    After, when I finished the army, it was 1938.
    You see, in '33, Hitler was--
    has taken over.
    And before [AUDIO OUT]
    That would be a good chapter.
    We will start how the Russians came into our country and then
    how the war started and how the Germans acted.
    The war, in general, started--
    this date I remember.
    Later dates I don't.
    In September--
    1939, and the Germans attacked Poland and England and France
    then.
    He had a non-aggression pact with Poland,
    and they came to their aid.
    And the Germans had a very good success.
    You know, they conquered Poland within two weeks.
    And right away they went to Belgium and Holland and--
    and they finished them up within days, and then France.
    And France, we were reading the papers, and, of course,
    a lot of it we thought that the war is on,
    but they don't mean us because we were a little on the side.
    And the situation were pretty good.
    The economic situation was pretty good.
    And the fact that refugees came in Riga to save themselves,
    we thought that this is our--
    we are at a haven.
    You know, Riga is a haven for the, in those days,
    war situation.
    Where were the refugees coming from?
    From Germany.
    What kind of people were they?
    Mostly Jewish people and a few non-Jews--
    intellectuals, which were known as Democrats
    or that they are not Hitler sympathizers.
    And the war was--
    we, naturally we were sad with the German successes,
    but we didn't feel the danger yet.
    And then in 1940, while the war was on for about a year,
    the Russians came in.
    Where were you working at that time?
    At that time I was working in a radio plant.
    It was called Radio Pioneer.
    And I was getting good wages.
    And since I graduated from that trade school,
    I was considered a good tradesman.
    I was not in the trade.
    And I was born there.
    And I thought it is the homeland and we were safe.
    Of course, I was always a Zionist.
    Even my nickname as a child was "the Zionist"
    because I used to sing all the Zionist songs.
    And in those days till--
    Were your brothers still in Israel at that--
    or Palestine at that time?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Then in 1940, the Russians came in.
    And they came in suddenly.
    We didn't even have the notion that they are coming.
    And only the night before we heard,
    and then those heavy propeller plane
    bombers or whatever they had, the airplanes.
    And they occupied the airport.
    And there was no resistance.
    We didn't even hear.
    And the next day, there was in the papers
    that since the Russians on over the radio.
    They had occupied the radio station.
    It was overnight.
    We all slept.
    That since the war is going gone,
    and Latvia is a neighbor and bordering with a sea,
    they cannot let their interest, the Latvia,
    to go over to guard the Russian interests by Latvia until they
    have to move in.
    And things will be the same.
    And the president was still the president.
    And in fact, he came on the radio
    and said everybody should go to work and not to worry.
    And he said, you go to your work, and I'll do my work.
    [PAUSES] However, in a very short time--
    not to go in details--
    the president was unseated.
    In fact, he was taken to Russia.
    And a high official, that Vyshinsky,
    he was the attorney general of Russia.
    But he was a very good speaker.
    And he came in the factories, organized the factories.
    And we had to go all to the square of Riga
    and demand that Latvia should become a Soviet Republic.
    And we demonstrated.
    It was all organized in the factories.
    And one day came.
    They were full of people, the biggest amount of people
    I have ever seen before.
    And we prepared the placards and signs.
    And the next day, or in a couple of days, it was in the paper
    that the petition was accepted, and Latvia now is not anymore
    Latvia as a Republic, that it's a Soviet Socialist Republic.
    And they had already a representative
    in the [RUSSIAN], that highest--
    soyuz of the Russian in Moscow.
    And it was a Soviet satellite.
    And then, our papers were full already with a Soviet line.
    And they praised Stalin, how clever
    and how foresighted he was that he made a pact with Hitler.
    And he said already, the capitalist Nations wanted
    that Russia should fight--
    to get in a fight, Russia and Germany,
    but Stalin outsmarted them.
    And now the capitalist countries are fighting Germany.
    Russia is completely peaceful.
    And we lived like that for about 11 months.
    Where was your mother, living still with--
    My mother was living with us in Riga.
    From the small town, the shtetl.
    We brought her to Riga because myself
    and another brother and my sister were working in Riga.
    They were working, and I, in the beginning,
    I was getting my education in Riga.
    I was up, by that time, 20 years old.
    So none of your family was left in the shtetl then,
    is that right?
    No.
    No.
    So we lived under the Russians for about 11 month.
    And the press was full of praises.
    And we did not have a notion that they'll attack us.
    However, once in a while, we used
    to listen on sort waves England.
    And we, especially the Jewish people,
    we were alert what's going on.
    And we read between the lines because, from the press
    and from the radio, you didn't get a good picture
    because everything was nice, everything for Russia was nice.
    And they were-- still they were putting
    the guilt on the capitalists.
    And they wanted the war, and America,
    it was still the same, the Cold War, the same language.
    So again, as a surprise, the next day
    we read that the Germans are marching on Russia.
    And I want to tell you that we heard over the radio, we--
    in fact, because I was working in a radio plant,
    and we had that shortwave, it wasn't so common like today,
    everybody can with the radio.
    Before, you could hear the station and that's all.
    So we heard that Churchill was warning Russia
    that the Germans are concentrating their divisions
    on the border with Russia.
    Where were all these refugees living?
    How did they--
    They lived among the people.
    They were-- they rent out in the old countries like that.
    Here for example, we have a house
    with so many rooms and some empty rooms.
    There, if a family had some empty rooms, they had borders.
    I see.
    So they lived in homes where there is one or two rooms.
    And mostly-- not family members came--
    mostly were couples or single people came--
    adults.
    So one morning, we hear that really the Germans
    are attacking the Russian.
    And they said already before, they were praising
    Germany, and not a bad word.
    And they call them all kind of names.
    But they said our forces are vigil,
    and they are giving them resistance.
    And they said everybody should go to work on this.
    However, in a few days, in a few days,
    we could see, when we were going to work, that the Germans,
    instead of going towards the front to meet--
    the Russians, instead of going towards the front
    to meet the Germans, they were going back.
    So, on the radio--
    television we didn't have yet.
    On the radio, they would say that the Russians are changing
    out their regular army with fresh forces, more who know how
    to operate more modern weapons.
    But we did see this all back.
    And it wasn't-- then they-- a few nights,
    the Germans bombarded Riga.
    And then Hitler called back the Volksdeutsche,
    you know, the German people who lived in Riga.
    In Riga, in Latvia, there were about 6% Germans
    because it's a neighboring country.
    He called back all the people to come back to Germany.
    And they grew up in Latvia and knew the language.
    So he dropped them as parachutists at night in Riga.
    They knew the town.
    And already, they went on the roofs, the Germans,
    the fifth column they were.
    And the Russians were paralyzed.
    And still they were saying that they were pushing them
    back and having victories.
    Not only that, they started to mobilize
    the soldiers, the Latvians.
    We were considered already Latvian to Russian.
    So they gave out all the names who
    were serving in the army from this
    and this years should report.
    So some reported, and some did not.
    Were you given a number to report?
    Right.
    Yeah.
    By alphabet-- and everybody had to report, who did service,
    let's say, from '37 to the end.
    And so what happened, they mobilized those, the Latvians,
    and they put them to guard the retreat.
    And their own soldiers, some cavalry and their guns,
    they were pulling back.
    But the Germans came so fast, they blocked them up,
    they got--
    Did you go when you were called?
    No, it wasn't my number yet.
    I see.
    I wasn't.
    And then we saw that things are bad.
    However, the Russians were broadcasting
    still good [INAUDIBLE].
    Were you still working in the factory?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And the factory was accessible.
    So-- oh, yeah.
    And we were already intimidated.
    For example, if I saw that it is the opposite what
    they are doing and what they are saying, you could not tell.
    Unless it's your closest friend, you
    could not tell They are not attacking, they are retreating.
    So in a few days, maybe a week, the Germans came in.
    Where were you the first time you saw a German?
    I was at home already.
    And all I could see is from the window, you know.
    And the radio right away changed it with the marches.
    And the Germans took over the radio station.
    And beside the march music, they said kill the Jews, you know,
    nothing else but the Jews.
    And the Jews made the war.
    And you know, it was already so--
    I saw that we are trapped.
    Why didn't escape?
    Why didn't run like a lot of Jewish people run, to Russia.
    And Hitler [INAUDIBLE].
    I'll come to it.
    And it was very sad.
    And there was already shooting, you know.
    They were extra to live.
    They shot a Jew here and there, you know, on the street,
    lying there.
    It was-- for Jews it was--
    However, the Latvians were jubilant.
    They went with them right away.
    And right away they had volunteers with the armbands,
    with German signs.
    And I saw them through the window.
    I lived on the fourth--
    first-- fourth floor, and I could see how
    the Germans were marching in.
    Was your mother still with you?
    No.
    No.
    My mother was already dead.
    I had-- my brother was with me and a sister, a married sister
    with two infants.
    But I was alone when he was there.
    When the Germans started to bombard Riga,
    my sister were with two kids, and we
    lived on the fourth floor.
    You had to run.
    And that was already still--
    the Russian power was, and they said everybody
    must run in the shelter.
    And every other house, or third got a cement shelter
    in the basement, where you could run.
    And we did [INAUDIBLE] families.
    And then you wake them up, and you cry.
    So my brother and I and her husband
    was still from a shtetl near us.
    And her husband, we decide like that.
    We knew our shtetl was far from a train
    or from a strategic road or so.
    And the First World War in our shtetl, there was fighting,
    but we hardly felt it.
    So we thought they should go back.
    And we had a house.
    They should go back and spend the time of the war in shtetl.
    And in that days, trains were still going.
    But the trains were going from Riga
    was west to east, to Moscow, in that direction.
    You didn't need even tickets.
    They let in.
    And the most were with army trains and a few carriages
    they had for us.
    And we lived not far from the railroad station.
    So we took the sister and her two children and her husband,
    and we put on the train to go to the shtetl
    because our shtetl was on the east.
    So here's what happened.
    And this I found out after the war.
    Instead the train should stop near our shtetl--
    our shtetl was about eight miles from the train anyhow--
    and let off passengers, they went right on to east,
    took them to Russia.
    And I didn't know it until the end of the war.
    When the Germans came in, I used to hear how they, in Riga, they
    didn't kill the Jews.
    They killed the ones, but en masse.
    But in the little towns, they gave weapons to the peasants
    and to all the Christians and said go and kill the Jews.
    And they were buried or burned in the synagogue.
    In my shtetl, they were all put together in those synagogues
    and put on fire.
    And one group with a rabbi from, they made it out to the woods.
    So that [INAUDIBLE] we again, a mistake we made.
    We put my sister and her family in the mouth of the lion.
    And after, as time passed by, I thought maybe
    that was the best.
    They didn't have to suffer because we'll all go under.
    And I was with the idea that they are not alive anymore.
    Now we'll go back what happened.
    When the Russians came in, right away the Jews and the Jews,
    they are--
    every day, over the radio and in the paper used to be laws,
    decrees that the Jews, for example, the first
    was that every Jew has to wear a yellow Star of David.
    Some didn't have the yellow cloth.
    And the next day, they said that in a certain address
    you'll get the yellow cloth.
    Everybody's allowed to go there.
    Oh, yeah, for the first day, no Jews are allowed on the street,
    for the first couple days.
    Then no Jew is allowed to walk on the sidewalk.
    All the Jews has to turn in their radios
    and cameras and their gold and silver, wedding
    rings and everything.
    So radios and cameras, they brought out the--
    jewelry, some gave a little and hit a lot,
    or they had good friends with the Greek Christians.
    They asked them to hide or something.
    But you had to go on--
    no radios.
    And every decree was like that.
    If you don't follow, you'll be shot on the spot.
    Anybody who is found with a radio
    will be shot, and always shot, shot.
    So then how about the stores?
    Jews can't go and stores and buy except for 7:00 till 8:00,
    in one hour.
    And it was very, very frightening and very dangerous
    because it wasn't only talk.
    There were a lot of people who were shot, a lot.
    Then a lot of people were taken out from the homes at night
    and arrested, and you didn't know what happened to them.
    Then after that, they said that every male Jew from 16 and up
    has to register for work in the prefecture, the police station.
    And everybody had to go.
    Whoever we'll find in the house, that they will be shot.
    And then I'll mention, I too, I went to register
    and they took me to hard work and such.
    And human behavior and this, I thought it is--
    What did you do, Irving?
    What kind of work?
    One time, for example, they put us
    in in a big Russian warehouse that had,
    the oats and fodder for animals.
    You had to load it, and load it on inside--
    no water and this.
    And you inhaled all the dust for a day.
    And it was bad.
    And you couldn't ask them for a little water, nothing.
    Word.
    Then we had to fill sacks and put it on the trucks.
    And another the day I was-- and that was the worst--
    I was taken to work near a railroad, where
    they had a depot and a lot of the railroad ties impregnated
    with chemicals.
    It was already windy and cold.
    And we had carried it for half a mile too.
    And, you know, the long ties, they are good lumber, squares.
    They were heavy too.
    And one-- one hour or two is one thing.
    But you have to work 10 hours.
    And I remember, I told you already.
    When the chemicals and the splinters fell in in your eyes,
    and you were sore, you know, your shoulder,
    and the next day--
    and no food.
    At the end of the day, they gave us half a loaf of bread
    to take home.
    And come tomorrow again.
    And some got beaten up.
    And you know, when a German, when he hits you,
    he hit to injure you.
    And I thought there is no use.
    And I wanted to commit suicide, I'll tell you.
    I mentioned it to you.
    I don't want it to be that way.
    Well, if you die, who knows which way is harder to die.
    And maybe there is a chance.
    Let's make it.
    Maybe it'll improve.
    Maybe, you know, always to get the benefit of doubt.
    And I did not go to work.
    And here's what happened.
    When the alarms were, and I had to go to a shelter--
    our building, where I lived, didn't have a shelter.
    So I had to go to a next building.
    And in each shelter, there were organized already
    by the Russians before the Germans came in.
    They had a older man who organized.
    And that was pretty good organized.
    They had even beds and mattresses
    for women or children.
    And the adults were standing or sitting down.
    There were no benches.
    But it was all from [INAUDIBLE].
    So there was a man, and he lived next door to where I lived.
    But before I saw him, but I never made contact with him.
    And so he was very friendly to me.
    What was his name?
    Sirius, Janis Sirius.
    A Christian, a goy.
    And so somehow, I used to come in.
    In fact, I was, I think, the only Jew.
    And I was standing in a corner, and the goyim used to talk
    [INAUDIBLE] and laughing.
    And they had one more than I was,
    and I knew what is going to go on.
    And I don't know if they know it, that I'm Jewish or not.
    But anyhow, we got a little bit acquainted
    during the few evenings when there was the alarms.
    And-- and when I didn't go to work, I start getting afraid.
    Oh, yeah, and they start giving out signs, walking signs,
    that if you worked, belonged to somebody,
    you can go on the street.
    And if they catch you you show you
    are working, all of us there.
    They can beat you up or catch you, anybody.
    So I started to work.
    So I thought, I'll go too, and I'll
    register myself for work again.
    So while going, I see next door to my building,
    some Jewish girls go in.
    And one kept--
    I know one.
    I went to high school together.
    So I asked her, what are you doing here?
    She said, oh, we are working here.
    She said the man brings us even food from a restaurant.
    That was an huge.
    So I thought, that would be a good job for me.
    It's next door, you know, because the walking
    was a danger, walking on the street.
    And I didn't know what had been, so I go in.
    And they said, yeah, there's the man.
    You can talk.
    I go in, and I saw that man, you know,
    who was the guard, the Ordungs holder, who kept order.
    And he is their boss.
    He hired them.
    So I go in, and I tell him, can he use--
    yeah, I can use you.
    So he goes with me to the police station and said--
    he leads me.
    And they were giving me a sign, and he keep me.
    Now, who was that man?
    Next to our building in town was--
    it was called a school museum.
    And what is a school museum.
    In America you don't have it.
    For example, in America, it's public school or high school.
    If they have an aquarium, they can have a fish aquarium
    or have a reptile.
    Or there is zoo not far away.
    You take your kids there.
    We didn't have it.
    So this, he had a whole floor of--
    And so he got me the job.
    He employed me.
    On the second day, and what--
    oh, yeah.
    So what was I doing?
    He was the student museum manager.
    And so kids used to come to the school museum
    so they could see how animals look or fishes or whatever
    when they were having botany or something.
    He had all kind of butterflies collections
    and so on and so forth.
    So when I came, I used to fix his-- he had a lot of doors,
    and doors wouldn't close.
    And and he had it locked under locks and keys.
    He didn't have keys and this.
    So on the second day, when all the Jewish people-- and he
    had a number of girls working.
    They had to clean the rooms and dust.
    And during the war or before, they
    were neglected, and on the floors too.
    So he asked me one, the second night, to stay a little longer.
    And he said, how do you get food?
    He was listening.
    And the goyim knew how bad it is for the Jews.
    And he had-- he was sympathizing.
    Where do you live, and how do you get food and this?
    And what do you eat?
    So I said, all I need is bread, bread and maybe a little piece
    of butter, and that's all.
    And I said, so I haven't got this.
    So he said-- and like that.
    And he find out--
    he knew that I live in the neighborhood,
    and I told him where.
    So my window, from my room-- and we had Venetian blinds like
    that--
    was across, you know, like this building.
    He said, come in tonight for a warm meal, to our place.
    And he said sometimes I have visitors.
    Nobody should know.
    But I'll have, he said--
    I'll put a piece of paper here, and the light
    will come through this, and you come in.
    So we came in.
    I came in, and it was already probably a couple of weeks--
    warm soup or this.
    I didn't have, but I didn't care.
    I was young.
    And as I said, bread, it was enough--
    bread water and a little piece of butter because you're
    aware the danger.
    You felt it's so great that the food was nothing.
    You didn't imagine.
    There is no enjoyment.
    There is-- you were obsessed with the future, what
    the morning will bring, what the next day or the next hour
    will bring because the radios from the goyim,
    they said that this shtetl is already judenrein,
    clean of Jews and this.
    And they were telling how Jews did this and that, all kinds
    of, that they found a family was murdered by Jews
    and-- you know, to incite hatred and wrath against the Jews.
    But he wasn't like that.
    So anyhow, I came in.
    And here his wife brought me a--
    I remember it was mushroom soup, something with milk.
    And I sat down.
    They were sitting, and she was crying.
    And he was sitting there.
    He said-- and you know the war was on already for a year,
    and Hitler had so much success.
    You would have to read the history of that time.
    He was going from victory to victory.
    And we were talking.
    I said, well, it looks very bad.
    I don't know what the future will be.
    And he said-- he was an old man at that time.
    I was 20 years old, and he, in my eyes,
    he was old because he must been 60 years old.
    He said, no, he said, justice will conquer, he said.
    And he said, that Hitler, he'll break his neck.
    He said he's taking one country after the other
    and suppressing them.
    But he said, one day the people will get--
    even if he'll conquer everything,
    he won't be able to hold.
    And to me it was, in a way, at that early age
    and I didn't know how things work out, it was unbelievable.
    But he said--
    And it did gave me courage, on the other hand, because I
    thought he knows what he's talking about.
    And then I stopped to think.
    And I stopped to realize.
    I'm thinking like afterward.
    He was the first man in those days I heard something
    encouraging because the Germans-- oh, yeah,
    the Germans had--
    the German soldiers who were working with us,
    they said, oh, Stalin is kaput.
    And it will be in Moscow.
    In fact, the Volksdeutsche, they had
    reached Moscow and Leningrad only the first 10
    days of the war, or two weeks.
    And Russia, it will fall apart.
    And we'll be all over and this.
    They were-- the Germans were--
    had so much belief in the führer and in the future.
    Anyhow, so I--
    I was there.
    Then I went home.
    And the next day, he said, we'll come again.
    Here what happened.
    One day, it was the second or third day, he said, sit down.
    Let's-- let's talk things over.
    And at that time, the ghetto was forming.
    What it means "the ghetto was forming," they already--
    the Germans set up a Jewish--
    a Jewish gemeinde.
    It means a Jewish rab, a Jewish advisory committee.
    And the Germans told them where there'll
    be the ghetto, in a suburb.
    It was called the Moscow suburb.
    It was a dilapidated suburb.
    Before, Jewish people didn't live there.
    But they took out, chased out the habitants.
    To some they gave Jewish places.
    And they were fencing it up, and the Jews
    had to move over there.
    And that-- so, yeah.
    So the ghetto was formed.
    And he said, listen, my wife is Jewish, the woman, you know.
    And he said, some people, my coworkers,
    knew that she was Jewish.
    And some reported her, that all the Jews has to go in ghetto.
    And he got a notification that he
    has to send his Jewish wife in ghetto.
    He said, what do you think?
    I don't know, I said.
    I can't tell you, but--
    he said-- I said, well, if the way you think,
    and the war will be over, maybe she'll be in ghetto
    till you get her out.
    Or maybe you'll be able to visit her.
    Oh, he said, no.
    Soon as I let her go, I won't get to see her anymore,
    he said.
    Anyhow, so here what he did.
    Since he was working with the schools, and in Latvia,
    it was a big, big position to have.
    And he had friends in the university.
    In the university, all the professors-- in those days,
    Latvia didn't have intellectuals of their own
    because Latvia was independent only 18 years.
    And they didn't produce any professors.
    So they were all Germans, the higher in the university.
    In fact Latvia, during their independence,
    they made the university.
    You know, it wasn't--
    in Riga, they didn't have a university.
    So he went those, the Germans, and talked.
    And with bishops he got papers that, yes,
    he didn't deny that she was Jewish.
    She was one eighth of a Jew, that her grandparents or part
    of a grandfather was a Jew, and [INAUDIBLE] So--
    so this man befriended me.
    And I had it--
    oh, yeah, he used to go in the store and buy, for me.
    He would bring me what--
    I would give him the money.
    Then, when we had to go to ghetto, in ghetto
    we had to leave everything.
    And I was living--
    my sister and I and my brother, we had--
    our apartment was on the fourth floor because it was next door,
    you know.
    So my sister had furniture and silverware and this.
    Everything was left.
    So he said to me, he said, well, the Germans will take it
    away. he said, better let's bring it here.
    And if you will survive, it will be yours.
    So sure enough, it was--
    and we gave him everything.
    And he had another goy, a helper.
    And I helped him, and we moved over all this stuff
    to that place.
    And he was so interested on the day I left to the ghetto.
    I went, you know.
    He went with me, and he said he wants
    to see how does it look there and how [INAUDIBLE]..
    So I told them already, I knew where I'll live
    and how many people are.
    So he went there.
    And I said that already they have
    guards in most of the places.
    In a few places, the fence weren't ready,
    so you could go in and out.
    But he insisted that we can.
    And he had a hard time getting out,
    exactly, because it was a--
    you know, I was from the last one to get here.
    And but he went out.
    You say your sister went with you There
    No.
    My sister we put on the train.
    Before you went to the ghetto.
    Before.
    Yeah, before the ghetto.
    Before the Germans even--
    Right.
    Before the Germans.
    So, who went with you to the ghetto?
    Your brother?
    No.
    And he was there, but wasn't coming.
    No, I was all by myself.
    When the war started, in fact, the last day,
    when the Russians were still in town, a lot of people
    used to come with them.
    Young people used to jump on their trucks,
    you know, troop trucks, and go, just like on the street.
    And I was busy working, you know.
    And I was reading the paper or listening.
    And I-- I remembered from the First World War what people
    were told, how--
    how, even the first--
    you are poor, but you have enough to eat to survive on.
    My heart wasn't to run because I knew the Russians.
    I observed.
    There is no order, no discipline.
    So somehow I told my brother, well, listen.
    World War we won before, and we won't have so much.
    But they won't kill people for just being Jews.
    You know, I didn't believe it.
    Then-- oh, yeah, another thing I argued with him.
    I said, listen, if we were communists,
    we should be afraid.
    But we were not communist, neither he or I.
    And everybody knows that.
    But he said, no.
    What I hear, and what people tell me is we should escape.
    So at that last day, I decided I would go.
    So we took blankets.
    And we didn't have, like here, every house
    had suitcases and this.
    But suitcases would have been bad,
    you know, because all the goyim, if the
    would have seen a Jew walks with a suitcase,
    they want to take away because it was--
    they were-- they were told whatever the Jews have,
    it is yours, for the goyim.
    So we did like a lot of people.
    We took a blanket, put on our clothing, what we have,
    and whatever we wanted to have with us.
    And we tied the four corners, made a pack, and we went.
    And we went to the railroad.
    And we didn't live far from the railroad.
    OK.
    There was a train, steam--
    steam engine.
    And it was no-- no engineer.
    And people are already packed.
    Some say that train won't go anymore.
    The Russians all went away already.
    It was chaos.
    The streetcars, the wiring is off,
    and on the road, all of the streetcars not going,
    no, no traffic.
    The only you see horses abandoned, you know.
    They were from-- evidently they were already worn out.
    They abandoned because the horses are--
    you drive a horse for a couple days and no food
    and no drink, he--
    so Russian horses.
    And people, you didn't see.
    You could see-- so some who left, who were left over
    and they want to escape, so we went to the train.
    We got there.
    And that train was full with people
    who are trying to escape, not only from Latvia.
    They were already from the neighboring, Lithuanians
    or from villages, some were bombed out
    or they want to go to Russia.
    And there were that all the men should
    give the seats to the women.
    And after a while, more people come in.
    It was not a place to stand.
    And I said to my brother, I don't know what we're doing,
    and we're doing right by escaping.
    I said, here we--
    we know the language.
    We know this.
    We know the character of the people.
    We might-- what it'll happen or [INAUDIBLE]..
    Here is a certain death.
    He knew more than--
    he was older.
    So anyhow, we are waiting there.
    We are waiting, and nothing is doing.
    Once I said, oh, that, the last train left already.
    This will remain in city.
    And all of a sudden, bullets start
    flying, like machine guns.
    And it flies over in the train.
    And I told it, the fifth column of Germans,
    they dropped overnight on the roofs.
    They were shooting in the train.
    And the people start jumping out of the windows,
    and they're spreading out, and spreading out.
    And some got injured and were crying and yelling.
    And not everybody could go out because of everybody wanted
    to go out through a door, you can't.
    And finally-- and you couldn't stick together already.
    It was such a panic.
    Anybody-- I don't know, I didn't see where he is, went out
    or where.
    And how, before all the people were--
    they went out, and they were running
    to hide away from the bullets.
    And there was continuing shooting.
    So after it calmed down, try to find Max, my brother.
    He's not there.
    So I figured, when it was shooting,
    maybe he went back home.
    We lived about two blocks away.
    Maybe he went home.
    So I take my-- no, the bags were in inside there.
    So I go home.
    I go home.
    I go in, try to look for him.
    He's not there.
    So I go back to the station.
    The train is gone.
    So Max [INAUDIBLE] and that was the last train.
    There were no more.
    In fact, I saw Russian women with children on their arms.
    And they said their husband told them to wait,
    they'll come to pick them up.
    You know, the street were--
    they sat down here.
    And they asked me, where is the way to Russia,
    to walk with a child in hand.
    And they went to it.
    I could see how.
    In those days, I was too.
    I was so compassionate, how they were left without.
    And so I remained by myself.
    And later on I heard what happened to my brother.
    That he was-- when that train came near the Russian border,
    the Russians sealed the border.
    They wouldn't let him any except the Russians.
    And he was left at the border.
    And there were other Jews from other places.
    And he said they were going without food.
    One man came back from that train.
    So he-- when I met him, I said something there.
    And Max, how he was worried about what happened to me.
    I was worried what--
    anyhow, and then I didn't hear from Max, from my brother.
    Here what happened.
    After I was liberated in Germany, and after a long time,
    I could not--
    I knew I have here another brother and uncles.
    And I wrote to them, and I didn't get any, any answer.
    I was liberated in Bergen-Belsen.
    And I thought-- and at that time,
    the Haganah used to come already in Bergen-Belsen.
    And they-- and they said all the Jewish people
    should go to Israel.
    And so I had registered myself to go to Israel.
    And at that time, the immigration was illegal.
    And if you read about it--
    you are young, and you didn't live at that time.
    The Haganah, the Jewish Brigade, part of it,
    used to come and organize groups.
    And they would come-- we would come under illegal immigration
    on boats.
    They hired boats in Europe and took them to Israel.
    And the English wouldn't let them off of the boats.
    So during the night, refugees used
    to wait on smaller boats from a bigger boat.
    And they used to swim to the shores.
    And if you read later on, the English used to the boats
    with the refugees and bring them to Cyprus
    and put them in camps until the United Nations decided
    to divide Palestine in an Israel and an Arab state.
    And it became legal to immigrate.
    But what happened?
    So I registered to go to Israel, because I wrote a few letters.
    I didn't know exactly the address,
    but I knew Bellaire, Ohio and Tulsa, Oklahoma, anyway.
    But I didn't get any answer.
    So I registered to go to Israel.
    One time, after-- that was already after the liberation.
    One time I had a girlfriend, a Hungarian.
    So I came to her barrack.
    And I see a little girl writes a letter.
    She writes a letter.
    So this friend of mine said--
    I asked her, to whom is she writing.
    She said, well this girl has a father in America.
    And she writes to him.
    I said, does she get any answers?
    So she said, oh, yes, she gets answers.
    So I said, do you think she would mind
    if I gave her a little note?
    Maybe he can find my relatives.
    She said, why not?
    So I wrote down the names of my relatives and this and that.
    And I give it to her.
    And you know, in a couple of weeks--
    In a couple of weeks, they called my name.
    In Bergen-Belsen, we had the English after the liberation.
    It was in the English zone.
    So all the letters or communications,
    they used to drive in a truck with a loudspeaker
    and announce what came in.
    They couldn't deliver letters like delivered there.
    They had at place, a little office.
    And that office, in fact, was an English chaplain, a rabbi.
    And they called my name too.
    In fact, I didn't hear it.
    And later on, when I met the same girl, she said,
    you know, she said, that they called your name.
    Did you hear it?
    I said, no.
    She said, yeah, they called a name for you.
    So I, right away, ran to that office.
    There were a line of people with letters for [INAUDIBLE]..
    And I glanced at the statement, and saw right away.
    I recognized my brother's handwriting.
    And so it came my turn.
    I got the letter and I open up.
    And he writes that--
    he writes to me.
    Probably you know that Hilda, my sister is alive.
    And it was, for me, like you know.
    And she and her husband have children,
    and they are alive in Siberia.
    They went.
    And then when I came here, after a year-- after the liberation,
    I came to the United States.
    And I asked about Max.
    So she said, yes, Max was alive almost the whole time.
    He was in the Russian army.
    You know, they mobilized it.
    And he got in touch, through other people, with my sister.
    I didn't know it, all the four years, that he was alive too.
    However, he-- at Stalingrad-- that was at the end, in 194t--
    he was helping to defend Stalingrad.
    And he fell.
    He was wounded badly.
    And then my sister didn't hear from him anymore to him.
    Evidently, something happened.
    But he was there.
    Right.
    So for me, it was entirely new.
    You know, I thought Max is gone.
    [INAUDIBLE] if this chapter.
    Now what happened to that Gentile, who were--
    who had the Jewish wife and who befriended me?
    And he helped me out quite a bit.
    When-- when-- now, when the Germans came in,
    and we were in ghetto, then in ghetto they sorted the people.
    We were 40,000 people in ghetto.
    They sorted the elderly, the women and children,
    in one ghetto.
    And the single, able-bodied man, and then which trades they
    are sorted, in other part of ghetto.
    In-- in one day, I don't know the date
    or when, but all the people who are
    from this certain part of the ghetto had to--
    and it was wintertime, I remember-- had to get dressed,
    take a minimum of the things, they said,
    and they'll be resettled in another place.
    And they called the name.
    There is food is easier, and space is easier.
    And who will be able to work a little bit
    will be able to work, and they'll resettle them.
    And people were going.
    And then they gave an opportunity
    to husbands who wanted to go out with their families come
    join them.
    And that was maybe 25,000 people, I think.
    Instead of resettling them, what they said--
    and a lot of people doubted.
    But they took them out.
    And what we heard later on, people
    who were going out of the ghetto,
    that they killed them in mass graves.
    After they took them out and quasi resettled,
    they brought postcards and letters from the people to say,
    we are having it nice.
    It is nice here, and roomier, and this and that.
    What the Germans did, they made them write postcards.
    Goyim used to tell us that it was a terrible thing.
    Goyim used to come and tell us that there
    was a massacre [INAUDIBLE].
    And not one was left--
    left alive.
    So the one who used to get the cart, and you know, everybody
    was high strung and nervous.
    And they would say, oh, why are you spreading panic and this.
    Look, there are postcards and this.
    And you know, the Germans mixed up the way of thinking.
    And [AUDIO OUT]
    Some are alive or some are dead.
    And meanwhile, the able-bodied people, they
    organized in groups for work.
    And work, that was allowed because they
    had cheap work and--
    and dependable work.
    The Jews, first, every Jew spoke German, not only Jews,
    because Jewish is similar to German,
    because in Riga, there were German schools.
    And all the Jewish people went to German schools.
    And it was the--
    instead of Jewish, in fact, when I came from my shtetl
    and where I worked, it was German.
    And we learned.
    So.
    So they organized in small groups.
    Not only that, if, in many cases,
    the Germans, the German units who needed
    the Jews kozemed them in.
    Kozem means they quartered them in in their places,
    so they didn't have to go back and forth to the ghetto.
    And the Jews who worked for the Germans felt safer.
    The others who did not work in the ghetto,
    then they forced, they work hard and killed and sent
    to concentration camps.
    There was a camp, too.
    The ghetto was a little somewhat better in Riga.
    I don't know how-- tell in a concentration camp.
    At that time, they took me.
    And in fact, how I got the job with the Ordnungspolizei--
    Ordnungspolizei mean the police who keep order on the town.
    But they weren't-- our policemen weren't the killers.
    You know, the killers were the SS, Hitler's troops.
    And they were supplying telephone and communications
    apparatus to the Eastern Front.
    So we were working there.
    In fact, we could listen to the radio, too.
    We were repairing radios, on shortwaves.
    And here what happened-- and that was forbidden,
    you know, forbidden for everybody under death penalty.
    I mean, when you--
    I don't know if in the present radios--
    if you tune in a station on shortwaves
    and there is another station-- in another house,
    another room-- it start to whistle, high-pitched whistle.
    In next room--
    I told you before how where we were working,
    there was a three-room apartment on the basic floor.
    In the front was the warehouse in the middle room
    where the Germans, in the last one where our workhouse
    where we were working.
    Where we were fixing the radios, we would just turn the needle.
    This would get a whistle all the time
    that the German-- you know, there
    were about four or five Germans, but one especially
    used to listen, especially lunchtime when
    the other Germans used to go away for lunch,
    he would tune in shortwaves on.
    And on shortwaves from England, they had, on every hour, news
    in German for the German people.
    At that time, in English, I didn't
    understand when I worked.
    So I would listen, and I knew what's going on on the Front.
    If-- so I would know.
    And then-- but it was so you had to watch out
    not to let them know that you listened.
    If somehow the Germans would find out from all the Jews
    somehow around the way that somebody listens,
    and it comes to the authorities, you would be shot.
    However, I had, in Riga, another few people from my shtetl
    who settled in Riga.
    And we were good friends.
    And one was so--
    and he was the most intelligent of my shtetl people.
    He was so interested in the news,
    he would wait for me near the gates when I come in.
    And he would come and put his hand
    on my shoulder-- little boy, what's what.
    And it was such a funny thing.
    I would tell him what and how.
    You know, the Germans would always
    report they drown so many boats and this and that.
    But the English would be truthful.
    They would say they loaded that much, they load.
    But they would say what they did to the Germans.
    And I would tell him right away.
    And he had another brother.
    And there was another two brothers from my shtetl.
    And right away when he would go home,
    he would tell these two people--
    they lived in the same.
    And there was always a little exaggerate,
    made a little better.
    But it was for us--
    they kept me like I was the radio.
    [LAUGHS]
    And I would tell him.
    And it was very important.
    It was to raise the morale, because it was--
    the Germans, if you would listen to the Germans,
    you would think you are lost.
    And we knew, also, what in abroad, in America
    or in England, what they report about the Jews.
    You know, we have, too--
    in England, English knew that they are murdering or they had.
    So I worked at the time for the police.
    And then it was--
    again, came from Berlin that no more--
    the German units cannot keep the Jews working.
    Yeah, they liquidated the ghetto and sent all the Jews
    to the concentration camp.
    And there were goyish too, you know.
    Irving, before we get to the concentration camp,
    how long did you work for the police?
    About eight month to a year.
    And during that time, I believe you told me,
    but we didn't get it on tape, about your experiences.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Would you mind telling--
    The torture.
    --me that again, so I can--
    Oh, I think like that.
    Let me tell you--
    let me go my way about the goy and my good goy.
    And this will make an extra--
    OK.
    Maybe an extra, right?
    All right.
    So here what happened.
    This-- we're taking--
    he took you to the ghetto.
    And that's where you left off.
    And he had a hard time getting out afterwards.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    Right.
    And oh yeah, one time while I was worked for the police,
    here what happened-- the police there--
    we fixed radios.
    But also was going to go on the--
    one of the policeman, they had drivers driving trucks
    back and forth to the Front.
    And in wartime, gasoline was very--
    it was rationed.
    Private people couldn't get gasoline at all.
    So here what the--
    what one time, the driver from a truck--
    and he was the--
    he used to pick us up from the ghetto
    and bring us when he wasn't on the road.
    Asked me, he said he needs gasoline,
    but he cannot get gasoline unless he has the tachometer.
    the meter in the car, the mileage meter.
    I heard, you know.
    He asked me if I can do it for him.
    So and he said that he needs it.
    He said he-- well, let me see.
    So I got under and I screwed-- you could get--
    I took a drill machine, a hand drill.
    And I put on, and I drilled it like that,
    so he put on more mileage.
    He could get more gasoline.
    The gasoline they used to sell for cigarettes, for everything.
    So and he was a good goyim.
    So one time he said, I would like something to do for you.
    Do you know--
    I think--
    What was his name, Irving?
    His name was Weissner.
    He was a German from Germany.
    Oh yeah, with the Germans, we knew they felt sorry for us.
    In fact, one time one of the Germans there, a man,
    he was from Berlin.
    It was-- I think it was Christmastime or New Year's.
    He said, I wish the war would be over, and we have a good year.
    And he said, and for you, the situation
    would change to the good, too, he said to us.
    What was his name?
    His name was Master, Mr. Master from Berlin.
    He was the head of the, chief--
    Right, right.
    --of the police?
    Right, not of the police, but of this.
    This was a branch of the police.
    It wasn't the main.
    This was a branch.
    And they had to worry about the telephone and the radio
    for the Front.
    But he was a pretty good man.
    Not only that, in fact, the other boys--
    you see, the other boys were taking care of the building
    and heating and this.
    And they all used to go for lunch.
    One boy saw that he got a letter he put in his coat
    on the left side.
    He took out the letter, and we knew
    how the Germans feel in Berlin.
    So he had a wife and a daughter.
    And she wrote him how bad it is-- food is scarce
    and the bombardments and this.
    And she said that the war is lost, anyhow.
    And she goes, they wish it would be over sooner.
    But so after a certain period of time, all
    the Jews had to go to the concentration camp.
    However, it happened-- and I don't know how that one German
    took out specialists of the ghetto, and he moved over.
    And he quartered them in in a plant.
    It was a textile plant on the other side of the river.
    And the textile machinery-- the Germans
    didn't need the textile.
    They broke up in scrap and sent it to Germany.
    And there he made a tailor shop, but a big tailor shop
    and a shoe manufacturing plant and a garage they used to fix
    and a printing plant.
    Every imaginable trade, he placed there,
    because during the war there was nothing.
    Everybody was on the Front, or it was destroyed,
    or it wasn't important to--
    and there-- and he gathered them Jews with trades.
    And when I-- and they came in here.
    Then I said, who am I?
    I can fix typewriters, I can fix watches,
    I can fix electric motors.
    This was while you were working at the police station?
    No, that was in between when they closed it.
    No more-- that was after, a little after, a few days after.
    OK, you had been working at that police station for 11 months?
    Right, but I used to stay there, to sleep in there.
    And go back and forth.
    Go back In the morning, yeah.
    Not to go back by myself, but a German used to come,
    one of the--
    and pick up his Jews.
    And we'll come back at night.
    And it was a lot of groups like that.
    Would you mind telling the gun story?
    Now?
    Yes, while you're at the police station,
    so we don't jump ahead.
    Oh, OK.
    So well, we would have to jump a little bit back.
    While I was at the police station, I met him, the man,
    and I was known.
    Very soon I was known by the Germans
    that I know too more, this and that.
    So anything imaginable they used to bring me to fix.
    And one time that Master, he brings me--
    he said, can you clean my gun, I haven't cleaned it
    for a long time.
    I said, all right.
    In fact, he didn't-- can you clean, but he said, do it,
    you know-- it would--
    so I take it apart, and I clean it.
    And meanwhile, there was another boy.
    We were-- at this group, we were two, four, six,
    eight young men were working.
    There were two who were chopping wood and heating the rooms
    and cleaning up.
    And two were in the warehouse, loading and unloading
    there, some packing this.
    And two were with us.
    We were, myself and another, were fixing,
    repairing the things.
    So while I cleaning, so one--
    Abraham Field, was his name, Abraham Field.
    And I knew him before, I told you.
    We were the same age.
    And when we had maneuvers, he was
    serving in the army in a different town.
    And I was in a different.
    But for me and the Jewish people, I was in the army the--
    who blows the horn.
    You know, the--
    Bugler.
    Bugler, yes.
    So and he said, oh, how come a Jew, they let you be a bugler?
    [LAUGHS] And that's the way we got acquainted,
    because just as I said before, the discrimination was so--
    they were ashamed to let a Jew be a little higher
    than the ground.
    So he said, oh, you know how to do that?
    Said, well, I know, and I was in the army over there.
    So he tells me, we need you, I want to talk to you,
    come over to where I live in the ghetto.
    So I came over.
    I said-- so he tells, he said, there is an organization,
    we are organized where we are arming ourselves.
    And he tells me how he gets the arms.
    And you see, some Jewish people work,
    sorting the armaments they get in the Front
    from German soldiers who are killed or Russians.
    They put it all on trucks and bring it and dump it
    And it has to be sorted--
    which are good and decent--
    and oil and unpack them and put on tags--
    or they are of the same kind to put here, to go in that.
    You know, some are--
    So he said, these people, they take apart and bring in parts.
    And the Jewish police--
    at the ghetto were Jewish police who
    had to examine for the Germans-- you know,
    there was one German and 10 Jewish policeman.
    They examine that the Jews don't smuggle in food--
    bread and butter.
    You know, this, they were.
    So anyhow-- and there they are in connection
    with the Jewish police.
    And they make them that they are not examined-- and he said,
    we need to put it together on that time.
    So I said, I feel like it's so dangerous, I would-- oh yeah,
    and I asked him, what will you do with it?
    He said, we won't do anything.
    But he said, the Front is coming.
    And he said, it might come a time when the Russians are here
    and they want to take us, or they might want to shoot us--
    we'll shoot back-- no matter a small amount,
    maybe we will save them.
    So he said, they can do it, but provided I'm by myself--
    nobody, nobody knows about it.
    Because a lot from me will that come known,
    then everybody will know.
    But he said, yes, you come.
    And he showed me what they have--
    a little in the basement.
    And where they lived--
    the best boys-- in a house away, a little house.
    It was a one-family house, while I
    lived in the ghetto in a house where there
    were about six or seven floors.
    And we were packed like herring, like sardines.
    So he showed me here, and he said, you come.
    I said, all right.
    And I started to come in workroom.
    And there we put together-- start from-- would oil it.
    You know, some I was in doubt.
    I would try out, had ammunition.
    When it was ready, there was an outhouse
    with a double wall they would take it out to and bring me
    in a certain amount and watch as when I fixed this,
    there were others, again, with the outhouse.
    And there was nothing in.
    And I was going on, and It was a routine.
    How long did you do that?
    I did it for about three or four months.
    How did you test-fire the weapons?
    I would-- they had in the basement.
    And they would knock on, make noise, and it would go,
    you know.
    And one bullet I had test-fire, even one.
    I was afraid, sometimes, it may backfire on and explode, too.
    But I would-- they had a wall of burning wood prepared,
    evidently from the person who lived there in the house.
    I used to go behind.
    How many weapons do you think you repaired in that room?
    Oh, I would say probably about 35, 40.
    And some didn't have to be repaired.
    They showed me even a machine gun, a new one.
    And they had-- and I worked from one night.
    And it became a routine.
    I would come to my place and have a bite--
    whatever there was, you know--
    and go there.
    And I worked and go out.
    And I got acquainted with the other boys.
    But I don't know--
    only one or two I know their name.
    And the others I didn't know.
    And I didn't-- it didn't interest me,
    because I didn't want to.
    And the same, too-- it worked like a conspiracy we had there.
    So one night I came as usual.
    And I saw after peering around one-half windows not dark.
    And during the war, even the Front was far away,
    especially the ghetto had to be darkened, because they
    had orders to shoot.
    And they were trigger happy.
    Oh, if they had only--
    they didn't need an excuse, they could shoot.
    But this way, for the guards-- and the guards
    were Latvians, the Latvians who volunteered for to cooperate
    with the Germans.
    They were all, they were all-- it is all
    cooperated with the Germans, the Latvians
    were mad at the Jewish people.
    So I thought, something is wrong, all right.
    I want to go back.
    And you know, he calls me.
    He calls me in.
    He said, come back, come back, come back.
    So I start to-- he comes in.
    And I got in, I get in in the house.
    At that time, there were already half of the ghetto
    or two-thirds of the ghetto was divided up for--
    Jews from, not from Latvia.
    And there were Hungarian and Germans, mostly Germans,
    from Kehl, from different cities.
    And they have the--
    again, German Jews were these for entire ghetto.
    And that Roschmann somehow trusted then
    the Germans Jews policemen and the Latvian Jews police.
    So he sent in--
    in the Latvian ghetto, the German Jewish police
    at that house.
    And I see the house when he searched.
    And they keep on searching.
    And they said, you sit down, we have orders from Roschmann
    that anybody who comes in this house not to let go back--
    to arrest.
    And I thought, hmm, something is all wrong, I'm a lost man,
    I'm lost, because I knew it never happened that you, from
    ghetto should be arrested--
    is it for food or for stealing or for--
    and it should be free.
    He-- if they send him away to the city jail, to the--
    and what they do with them-- but they never come back.
    And I thought not only that, but that my-- if they found
    something or something that--
    if they are there, you know, it is for sure about this.
    So I'm lost, a lost a lot.
    And always I made--
    it's called a Heshbon Hanefesh.
    As somebody of life and somebody what's going on, I thought,
    the fact that I will die is nothing,
    because the chances to remain alive is very slim.
    But I thought, well, they'll start torturing.
    They'll want to get out, get this.
    And it can be terrible, and I heard about the tortures.
    And I thought the best will be if I can die,
    and how can I die.
    And I was worried and worried.
    But it wasn't a worry like you have a worry today--
    you made some mistake or you missed
    a train or you made a mistake or you lost money.
    It was a different worry.
    It's the worry about dying in a torture death.
    You don't know how it feels.
    And I know it will be torture.
    And nobody comes.
    And I wonder where are all the people that lived--
    our own group.
    I wasn't thinking about living.
    I was thinking about dying--
    how can I?
    And he-- they kept us until about 11 o'clock.
    And they talk.
    Roschmann is supposed to come.
    He said he'll come--
    nothing, nothing.
    And I thought I'd--
    and then a policeman comes from there.
    Then the Russians said they should lock there this place.
    And they arrested, taking the book.
    What did he say?
    They said, what should we do with that?
    He said, I don't know.
    Anyhow, I landed in the German ghetto in a bunker.
    A bunker was an arrest house.
    We called it a bunker.
    Why, I don't know.
    It was a garage with the windows.
    They put in blocks.
    It was a block building and cement floor.
    There was some straw.
    There were a few other Jewish people.
    And when I came in, I was envying those--
    OK, those maybe will die, too.
    But I didn't think they'll torture for--
    because it was for stealing or smuggling or--
    and I thought they don't want to give out all the--
    so I thought even in death there is different categories.
    I tried to hold my jack a little ways--
    maybe I can-- nothing else, I tried to hold my breath,
    he can't-- to commit suicide.
    I wish I would have something I could cut myself.
    Then I thought, maybe when Roschmann
    will come in the next morning, maybe
    when he'll come, I'll jump and grab his eyes,
    scratch his eyes.
    Or when he'll leave me, I'll try to run,
    and he'll shoot me the back or--
    And I-- it was cold then, but nothing bothered me,
    and no sleep-- none of it.
    About 2 o'clock, I heard that they come to open the door.
    And again from the German Jewish policeman said,
    the one who is arrested in [PLACE NAME]----
    it was the address there--
    should come up.
    So he get up.
    And I thought he was going to take me to the Russian, now.
    It was about 2 o'clock in the morning.
    He takes me out, locks the door of the cell
    and said, where do you live?
    I said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    So I'll take-- we'll go in from this ghetto, this,
    and bring me this.
    OK, they let me out.
    We go-- didn't ask me my name, nothing.
    Then I go up in the fourth floor, who are sleeping three
    in a bed, climb in, lie down.
    What's going on, here?
    Why this, why, though?
    Why didn't I seeing if the other boys are arrested?
    I didn't sleep.
    And I remember in the morning, I get up, and I will go to work.
    I didn't tell anybody, no.
    I was sleeping near--
    Kaplan was his name, my best friend
    who went to trade school together,
    and we worked together.
    I didn't say but I don't-- what is going on here something is.
    And the next morning I get up, get dressed.
    And we go out.
    We had a square where we used to gather a lot in the--
    a thousand people or more where we used to gather,
    and Germans who would come and pick up which is Jewish.
    And you'd come outside, come out where we would go.
    And a guard would open the door.
    He would take us back and this, this--
    some were big units with 200 people who were
    On that square there were a bulletin board.
    And on the bulletin was written--
    a lot of people were coming, and it says that Roschmann,
    that he's giving his honor, word,
    that if the people from that--
    from that [NON-ENGLISH],, and from that little house return
    voluntarily and he find them not guilty, he'll let them go free.
    However, if they don't report, he'll
    take 50 people from ghetto for each one of them,
    and will be shot.
    And everybody was worried.
    And a lot of people didn't know what it is about.
    But some knew where the people--
    and here what happened.
    Somehow, these people from that house
    find out that there will be a search or something.
    And they did not come to the ghetto.
    They hid in town.
    The town was easy to hid.
    You know, everybody could escape.
    However, for me, for example, there was nowhere.
    No, no, no Gentile would take in and save the Jew
    because, first, they didn't like them.
    Second, it was dangerous, dangerous.
    It was forbidden.
    If the Germans found that a Gentile was hiding a Jew,
    he was shot together with that whom he was hiding.
    Well, didn't Ferk work with you?
    Huh?
    Didn't Ferk work with you?
    Sure.
    Firk, yeah.
    Did he report to work the next day, when he was--
    No, no, no.
    Now, the day before, yes.
    You see, it was the evening.
    The next day he didn't report.
    I see.
    No.
    He wasn't-- and so what happened, they hid.
    They found out, and they hid in town.
    But some people, they were from Riga.
    They knew evidently what they were hiding.
    And they went out to talk to them and told them.
    And it wasn't-- they decided to come back, and they showed up.
    And Roschmann arrested them.
    Nobody of them came out.
    Not only that, they started, as the days went on,
    to arrest all the young people who participated,
    who were bringing it in.
    And I was thinking.
    I knew what is going on, because I knew this house
    and I knew what we were doing.
    And I knew my deal, that I was repairing this.
    And I thought Firk, for Firk my friend is there.
    And I knew the Germans were torturing them,
    and I better get out.
    And the fact that they were arresting others,
    and I was waiting for my turn.
    And again I though, what should I do?
    There is a chance I could escape and hide myself in one place
    there were--
    he had horses.
    There weren't trucks or cars like here.
    There were a lot of horse and buggies there.
    And I could climb up in his attic,
    there where he keeps his hay.
    But I thought, how long can I be there if nobody supports me?
    And I could, I thought, maybe by my benefactor, you know.
    Then I thought, but who knows if he'll want it,
    and who knows if it's right for me to put--
    he has a family.
    He had his wife.
    And he had a daughter with her husband.
    You had not seen him since that day he took you to the ghetto.
    One time I did see him.
    And I'll tell you about it.
    I was about to tell you before.
    So, and I always decided not.
    Then I though, where we were working,
    the Germans had a machine gun, a Russian, you know.
    And it was hanging like a--
    like somebody collects arms.
    And it was loaded with bullets, on the wall.
    And I thought, if I see Roschmann coming,
    I would mow him down, him and the Germans, all Germans.
    And still, it wasn't a fast decision
    because what will happen to the other Jews?
    This machine gun was where you were working?
    Yeah, and out of the ghetto.
    They let a loaded machine gun in there?
    Right.
    Because they trusted the Jews more than anybody.
    And I want to tell you another thing.
    Roschmann did not arrest any of the Jews anymore in ghetto.
    He wouldn't go in in the Latvian ghetto.
    All the arrested people, he used to go
    in the German units, where the Jews work,
    picked them up there.
    And it was there, a room, where I was working so situated--
    Was that because he was afraid that there were weapons there?
    Oh, yeah.
    Yeah.
    After he found out that his weapons, they were there.
    That I could see who comes in in the front door.
    First it was a bell.
    And I could keep open in our room, a little bit, the door.
    I was-- and I thought, I will open down on this.
    And it was, as I said, such feelings,
    such that the danger is here, that it--
    that it'll come to a point where, well, of life and death.
    And you were waiting for that moment.
    And I remember it was--
    it is hard to describe that feeling.
    We were-- our feeling in ghetto were
    like we are sheep in a slaughterhouse, where they'll
    pull out today you and today-- but there was an even worse.
    He never came to arrest me.
    And I don't know why.
    I don't know how.
    Probably Firk probably didn't give me out.
    He was the one who knew.
    And the other boys didn't even know my name.
    There was another man I knew who was arrested.
    And we worked together.
    He was a chemical engineer.
    And somehow he knew how to make the--
    not bombs.
    He would make powder, you know, something,
    gunpowder with cotton or something.
    And he was arrested.
    He was such a nice man.
    What was his name?
    Stober.
    Stober.
    And here it seemed to me I may be one more from the group who
    were active, I mean alive, and that's by miracle.
    Now, you continued to work at the police station.
    Who replaced Firk?
    Oh, yeah.
    Oh, here I'll tell you.
    That's a good question.
    Now, I knew what was going on.
    Firk didn't show up.
    So this German, our master, asked where is Firk.
    So we say he was arrested.
    You know what?
    He got dressed, and got in, and got to that--
    to the ghetto, to Roschmann.
    He said we need him.
    And he was a good boy, that man, very, very talented.
    He said we need him to work.
    And he said, I'll get him out.
    He says to us.
    And he went.
    And he comes back.
    And he said, I couldn't get him out, he said,
    because it isn't for stealing.
    He said they said it's political.
    And then he says in the same, he said, you know,
    maybe he was listening to the radio, and he was spreading it.
    And he said, you know, it is forbidden,
    even us, if they would find out that we
    listen on the radio, foreign radio, they would shoot us.
    So he didn't know.
    He thought it is from the radio.
    And they didn't replace Firk.
    There were orders.
    They gave over the--
    and shortly after, they liquidated the ghetto
    and sent us to the--
    Now, while you were working at the police station,
    did you see-- say you saw your next door neighbor?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That happened, I started to tell you,
    when we had a truck driver, you know,
    and he wanted to be nice to me.
    And he said, what can I do for you, sir?
    So I said, you know, I have a friend.
    Take me in the truck and let me off.
    I want to sit in for a while, and I'll come out.
    He said, yeah.
    So he got-- drove me up to that place.
    And I jumped out, and I came in.
    And I tell him, trust me.
    They didn't know of him, I'm still alive and this.
    And it seemed to me, you know-- and I
    don't know, is it true or somehow, or my imagination,
    that this woman, his wife said, if things get very bad,
    he said you come over here.
    We'll hide you.
    And this I don't remember that.
    Did she said, or didn't.
    You know, it was 40 years ago.
    But they were very pleased.
    And they asked me how, what.
    Oh, yeah, and she took out everything,
    what she had in the refrigerator, some [INAUDIBLE]
    and things like that-- loaded me up.
    I got in, he took me back.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    But then, next time, you know, I'll
    tell you that isn't finished with that.
    And then you continued to work at the police station
    until they liquidated the ghetto.
    And they liquidated the ghetto.
    How did your job end at the police station?
    They just tell you one day not to come back?
    One day, yeah.
    It was everything suddenly.
    And you never--
    In fact, they didn't have to tell me.
    No.
    It was from the ghetto.
    When we came to sleep, the ghetto is closed.
    They-- no more Germans can come to pick you up.
    It happened.
    They didn't know either, the police.
    Is that the last time you saw [? the master? ?]
    Yeah.
    You know, Irving, before we begin
    with after the ghetto was dismantled,
    you mentioned to me off the tape the last time that there
    was an incident where you had a gun, actually had a gun.
    Yeah.
    Would you please tell me about that
    before we begin with the dismantling of the ghetto?
    Well, I had the-- when I was repairing, I had guns.
    But I had a gun when we weren't even organized.
    And how did that happen?
    Next-- you have it on?
    Sure.
    Yeah.
    Next to my apartment lived a couple, a childless couple.
    And he was an elderly man.
    Was that the one you had worked for?
    No.
    No.
    It was a different couple.
    Yeah.
    What was their name?
    Katzen.
    Katzen.
    And he was working for a timber company.
    You know, in Latvia we had a lot of timber.
    So with the lumber men in the timber,
    he used to pay them their wages and this.
    So he had the gun.
    Usually, in Latvia, a gone, had only the police or officials.
    The population had no guns.
    There was no, not, no, no license like here.
    Very few who went hunting, they had probably small guns.
    But he had a revolver because he was
    handling money in the woods.
    So when the war broke out and he lost his job--
    all the Jews lost their jobs.
    So he had a gun, and he was probably 60 years old, gray,
    maybe [INAUDIBLE].
    So he said to me-- we were next door.
    He said to me, here, you want the gun?
    Do with it what you want or hide it from me.
    So for a while I kept it.
    Then I was afraid, you know.
    So I took it down.
    We had, downstairs-- it was an apartment building.
    In the basement, everybody had--
    Was this before your brother had left?
    Yeah.
    So he knew you had it too?
    No, no, no.
    that was not-- that is after my brother have left.
    No.
    No.
    So I had a gun.
    So the Nazis were already there when you had the gun?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    The Nazis were there.
    But I thought sometimes maybe at night
    I will go out and kill a Nazi, but it was so--
    the responsibility was so big.
    If a Jew would have killed a Nazi,
    I don't know what it would happen.
    But later on, they used to take hundred for one.
    If a Jew committed a crime, they would take hostages.
    So that is a small episode.
    But the fact is, I hid it.
    And I thought I'll use it, and I decided against it, very easy.
    But naturally, I had guns later on when
    I was fixing guns in ghetto, when we were organizing.
    So that would be the episode with a gun.
    I consider it a small episode, just a chance.
    But I wasn't that brave, and nobody
    would be that brave because it would be a lot of trouble.
    So now let's-- so this chapter is finished.
    And now we'll start when they liquidated the ghetto.
    And that is very interesting.
    There are very interesting moments.
    And a story, you could write a book by this itself.
    So at that time, Roschmann was in Riga ghetto.
    And the order was to liquidate the ghetto.
    So what did they do?
    They put a few signs that some people
    with trades or on the ages, are registered there.
    Some people already were working for the Wehrmacht.
    It was the army, the German army.
    They were working there, should register with them.
    And I, at that time, was working in the ghetto.
    You know, I was an electrician and I employed a few people,
    you know, people who had shorts of this,
    small repair or appliances.
    So when the ghetto was liquidated,
    I started to look for a job outside.
    And it so happened--
    oh, no, no, no.
    You know, I'm mixed up.
    At that time, I was working for the ordnungspolizei.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    So entire job, the little jobs, you know, they stopped.
    But big jobs, where a lot of Jews worked with the Wehrmacht,
    they--
    it's called in kaserne, you know.
    Kaserne means kaserne.
    You know what kaserne means, barracks for army.
    So they took the Jews and gave them a barrack
    where the army was.
    And they were working.
    And there was a lot of work for the Jews, all kind of work.
    In fact, the Jews replaced the German soldiers from the front.
    And they had 100s, and 200s, and 300,
    and they utilized in offices, whatever you can think of.
    Behind the lines they utilized Jewish people.
    But here what happened.
    One German, and I don't know how,
    and he was a very interesting man.
    His name was Scherwitz.
    He put out that all Jewish mechanics and tradesmen
    should register separately.
    He was an SS man.
    SS, you know, that Hitler stormtroopers.
    So I went and registered there.
    Anyhow, he took over a Jewish plant.
    It was a textile plant.
    He took over.
    The machinery textile, the Germans
    didn't need for the war machinery.
    But they needed the cast iron.
    All the machinery-- and he took 1,200 Jews.
    And I was among them too.
    All the machinery, first we cleaned
    rooms, big rooms, textiles.
    It was a manufacturing plant.
    Broke the machinery throughout, and with a sledge hammer
    broke it, loaded it in the big tractor trailers,
    and they took it to Germany.
    And after the rooms were cleaned, with the Germans,
    you know, it was working fast, and trucks
    were coming on the newest and shiniest machines,
    broken down and made scrap.
    Then we cleaned out the rooms.
    So one big room they made for dormitories,
    were sleeping quarters.
    And there were a lot of good workers
    who built, the beds and--
    how do you call it in barracks, the beds?
    Bunks.
    Bunks.
    And some were making straw sacks, some blankets.
    And it was-- so he set up a big tailor shop.
    And the tailor shop used to repair clothing, German,
    for it, and make new ones.
    A big shoemaker shop, big--
    there were a lot of shoemakers, Jewish shoemaker and tailors,
    and printing, auto repair shops.
    Some they left over from the textiles to make socks,
    knitting.
    I was mechanical things, all kinds.
    I was assigned with a group to fix sewing machines.
    You know, tailors-- there were about 150 or more sewing
    machines.
    All the time it breaks.
    So one man was--
    he was with a seamsters, with the sewing people.
    And I was downstairs.
    We had a little shop.
    There was a goldsmith, you know.
    And he was a good man.
    He used to make some-- melt gold to make all kind fancy rings,
    fancy lighters, all for the Germans--
    and typewriters, bicycles repair.
    And I think that was all.
    And-- oh, yeah.
    And that Scherwitz-- and he was a marvelous man.
    In fact, we were wondering.
    Some gave him a nickname, "the Father."
    Some said he's a hidden Jew.
    He looked Jewish, black hair and--
    you know.
    And he was so shrewd, and his ways were--
    weren't German ways.
    You know?
    Then, food-- oh, yeah, then [INAUDIBLE] a washing machines
    he set up to wash clothing.
    He had a butcher, butcher's, you know.
    And we belonged actually to the Kaiserwald concentration camp.
    And there was terrible.
    There were-- the Germans brought from Germany criminals.
    And they were the leaders of the ghetto--
    of the concentration camp.
    So all the Jews belong still to the concentration camp,
    after from the ghetto.
    But we were like a state in a state.
    He used to bring, officially, the food.
    But always additional food we had.
    Margarine and meat even we used to have.
    And there were tailors.
    One time he brought bales of clothing, make for us uniforms.
    Before we were wearing, with a--
    jail people uniforms.
    He didn't like it.
    He didn't.
    He said, I don't want it here.
    And the tailors--
    Where was the concentration camp you were living in?
    No, I-- we didn't go.
    I didn't go.
    They, when they liquidated the ghetto, part--
    those they couldn't use went to the concentration camp.
    Those, the people who knew trades, went there.
    So you were living at the textile plant.
    Is that--
    Right.
    I see.
    Living at the textile plant.
    Some people who worked for the Wehrmacht, for the army,
    went with the army.
    But under arrest, went to the concentration camp.
    All right.
    So-- so we didn't wear anymore those clothes.
    In fact, later on, a high official from the SS
    came and he saw us.
    They balled him out, why he did it.
    And part of it, he had stopped making those uniforms.
    And we were working and had it real good.
    And he was-- and this German was living with us in the camp,
    only he had a separate little house.
    But he was there.
    And he had two more Germans, assistants.
    And around this was made a fence from boards.
    And on top, you know, with a wire.
    And outside were Latvian SS guards, the collaborators.
    But they were not-- he made so they were not
    allowed to go in, only outside.
    And there was a big, big rooms, maybe
    it were that place had 15 or 20 acres or maybe more.
    We walk around.
    We used to walk around after work.
    And all of us, we never suffered hunger.
    What was your job, Irving?
    I was in the shop for fixing typewriters and sewing machines
    what they brought down.
    And I will tell you what happened.
    And we had it pretty good.
    How did you learn how to fix typewriters
    and sewing machines?
    Oh, I went to a trade school before.
    And, you know, I--
    I thought it was electrical.
    Well, but I was a handyman.
    I learned this, and I fixed watches.
    And I fixed a lot of things.
    I see.
    So-- so we lived there pretty good.
    And there was one time, and he used to do--
    oh, yeah.
    And I'll tell it.
    He approached the Jews, you know, so close.
    There were a few from Riga who studied in Germany,
    and they knew perfect German and the German ways of life.
    He became with them friends.
    You know, he would talk to them.
    And all over this was a Jewish manager.
    His name was Sheinberg.
    Then there was another Jew, and his name was Rudolf.
    And listen, well that--
    that Jew wore a tie and a shirt and lived in a separate room,
    too, with his wife, on the premises.
    And he used to go out to the high officials.
    You know, in Riga it was a big center, but from Berlin,
    from the big shots.
    You know, Eichmann was there, and Muller used to come.
    If they wanted something special, suit or this,
    this Jew would go and take their measurements.
    Oh, yeah.
    And he was a German-educated too.
    His German was perfect.
    And his looks was perfect.
    So he was the middle man.
    And we lived pretty good.
    Oh, yeah.
    And that Scherwitz was acquainted
    with some Jewish people.
    And some rich people had probably hidden valuables
    in town, what they lived.
    He would send out somebody, and they would pick up valuables.
    And he would trade.
    And with the Germans, that Scherwitz, used to schmear too.
    When a big shot would come, and he
    needs some, the commander of the whole Eastern sector,
    he would bring them boots, new boots
    with fur, which during the wartime-- you know,
    in America you can buy it in every store.
    But during the wartime, it was--
    you couldn't buy anything.
    And nobody was making something special.
    In there we could order up all kind of their uniforms
    with fur inside.
    It was cold.
    And here what happened.
    One-- here I'm coming to an episode, what happened.
    Roschmann used to come.
    And he, with the Germans, he would come and see
    how we produce and make nice things.
    He would look like any other man.
    And-- and something we were building.
    They were building-- everything was going on.
    There were Jewish masons and building a building.
    And some from outside brought in gravel, sand and gravel,
    a load.
    This is what happened.
    And at that time, Roschmann, an assistant, was at Lenta.
    At our place was called Lenta.
    And when, to dump the sand and gravel, a box with eggs
    fell out.
    And for the Germans, that the Jews,
    first, they couldn't understand why we look--
    why we don't look undernourished there, you know.
    And when they saw it the eggs came out,
    oh, the Jews are trading this.
    So anyhow, they notified Roschmann.
    And he came on, and he said, what is going on here?
    And I don't know what Scherwitz told him.
    But anyhow [AUDIO OUT] the eggs.
    And it was a Jew from Prague, Czechoslovakia.
    We had some German Jews there because they brought to Riga,
    I told you before, Jews from all Europe.
    And Scherwitz-- so after Roschmann
    left, Scherwitz called in us together,
    and he used to make appells during lunch.
    And he would speak.
    So he said, Roschmann was here.
    And he said we made a bad thing, a [NON-ENGLISH],, a bad thing.
    And he said, Roschmann--
    --who send him, a Czechoslovakian Jew,
    to the concentration camp.
    And he said, that Jewish boy said,
    if you send me to that concentration camp,
    he said, I'll tell everything what's going on.
    You know, what's going on, that we were buying with Scherwitz'
    approval.
    In fact, he used to help us get the food additional.
    And that was for the Germans, for Scherwitz, it would be--
    it would cost him the job.
    And that job is like that.
    For him, the job-- he didn't go to the front,
    and then he was promoted so fast.
    You know, he started out like a sergeant.
    Within three or four months, he was already
    a lieutenant in the SS because he had a good tongue,
    and he was going to the high officials and [INAUDIBLE]
    the production.
    So he got scared.
    So about 10 o'clock, when we were in bed, the oberjude,
    Mr Sheinberg-- not the one with the tie--
    came in and he said--
    well, we were sleeping in a big dormitory.
    He said, you know what happened?
    I don't remember anymore the name from that Czechoslovakian
    Jew.
    He said they were working on the roof.
    He fell down, and he was killed.
    However, we found out on the next day that Scherwitz said he
    cannot send them to the ghetto, he said.
    Otherwise, the whole thing will blow up.
    And he ordered-- and he didn't want to kill himself,
    so he ordered--
    there were other German boys who were working.
    Oh, they are working with the masons, with the masonry.
    He ordered them to eliminate him, you know.
    And it was a very shock, but I'm telling
    about the whole episode.
    So I heard that Scherwitz made them work when it became dark.
    As a punishment, he made him work, him work,
    the whole group in the masonry, later.
    But he gave them a notion to kill that man.
    And when he was bending down, somebody--
    I know that man.
    I don't remember the names that hit him with the shovel,
    with the flat over the head.
    So that's one episode.
    Now, after that time was going on, and we were working.
    And it was pretty--
    still the best place.
    Well, did Rauchman, was he satisfied that the--
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Well, he said it was an accident.
    He fell down off the roof.
    They know we were working and busy.
    And you know, German-- the German,
    he had evidently told him he punished him.
    This he was sending him this, and he fell down.
    Oh, yeah, they delivered the body, and the body had a flat--
    and we kept on working.
    Now, what happened?
    You know, as time goes on, the German idea
    was to eliminate the Jews.
    So from all-- they had to make, they called it, judenrein.
    You know what judenrein--
    clean of Jews.
    So they used to--
    we were 1,200.
    They asked 200 people.
    So each sub-- and there were a lot of subs, as I said,
    printers and weavers and the truck repair and car repair
    and trailers.
    Each shop has to give a certain proportion to make up the 200.
    200 what?
    200 Jews to give out to the concentration camp.
    And there they eliminated them.
    All right, do you know what period or what time
    it was, what month or year?
    I'll tell you approximately.
    When I read many times the stories about ghettos
    with periods, with dates, I wonder how do they know it?
    How do they remember?
    Because the state of our minds was so
    I don't know how anybody could remember dates.
    We did not remember dates.
    And why?
    Because we were equal to a bunch of sheep who are
    brought to the slaughterhouse, and we
    are going to be slaughtered.
    One part is today.
    When will be our line?
    And I don't know.
    Unless there were some people who were either--
    I was not.
    I don't remember dates.
    If I want to, I have to approximate.
    We didn't from any holidays or this.
    It was work, work, and waiting for when
    you are going to be called.
    And three, four months past, another 200.
    And again, each shop, each shop had a foreman.
    He would give the names.
    And it used to be we would entreten.
    We would line up in a line in the morning.
    And then Scherwitz would come, and he would
    say the one who are the list--
    the list who were called should go four or five steps ahead.
    And we would go, and they would go away.
    And, you know.
    We knew a lot of executions and this.
    And the one who went didn't know where--
    if they are be eliminated right away.
    There were already beaten, and in all kinds of places
    where people were eliminated.
    And it-- to 200.
    And it went up.
    It came to about 600, when I was still there.
    And here what happened.
    This is a very touchy episode.
    This was already about, I would say, in 1943, end of '43.
    And in our shop was--
    the manager was a Mr. Lippert.
    He was an engineer.
    And he had, before, a bicycle and typewriter shop.
    He was there, and he had a son about 18 years
    old, asthmatic, very tall, slender,
    you know, but a sick boy.
    So he was the manager, and his boy was working with anybody,
    giving a hand.
    Then was a Mr. Adamson, again, a father and a son.
    And they were in the type repair business.
    They had a shop like here an office.
    So there was a goldsmith, a very good specialist.
    His name was Khan, Mr. Khan or Kagan.
    Then was a family of three engineers, three brothers.
    And a Mr. Henkin and Gafanowicz, all that did--
    that Henkin was an electrical engineer.
    And-- and here what happened.
    And I was working with electric appliances
    and sewing machines what they brought down.
    You know, I used to make by hand parts if necessary.
    So that Mr. Lippert and Mr. Adamson, they had--
    it was a father and son, a father and son.
    And we had to send away people.
    So Lippert wouldn't send his son, you know.
    And that Adamson said, if he sends his son,
    he goes with him.
    And they were in--
    and somehow, they were personalities,
    they were always fighting.
    So when many people were sent away,
    so Lippert wanted to send Adamson's son.
    And they were almost--
    he want to fight.
    And he knew Lippert got--
    he cannot do that.
    So what does he do?
    He sends both away, the father and the son.
    And he comes to me.
    And he knew I was in the-- he said, Mr. Leibowitz,
    he used to--
    you'll take over from now on the typewriter repair.
    Your name was not Lebow there, it was what?
    Leibowitz.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    So I took it over.
    And we were working, and then he saw
    how handy I am and this, and everything was nice.
    Not only that, one time he brings me-- and that Lippert
    himself didn't have good hands.
    He was a businessman with a lot of practice in business,
    or he knew about things.
    He was an engineer, but to do the things he--
    and he respected me and this.
    One time, Scherwitz brings from town--
    and Scherwitz is the German manager.
    He used to go in town to--
    on big-- talk to the big shots.
    He brings, one, a calculator.
    It was a Mercedes calculating machine
    from a German, a big one.
    And in that time, we didn't have any the electric
    or the-- now the electronic things or anything.
    It was like a computer in those days.
    And it wasn't working.
    You know, they had--
    Germans had offices, and the war machinery
    is a lot of accounting business.
    And they had big offices with girls and with men.
    And it didn't work.
    So he brought in, and Lippert was very [? handstand up ?]
    a little bit.
    Lippert was very-- a little nervous.
    And he said, he said, Mr. Leibowitz, maybe you
    can fix this.
    I haven't seen in my life such a machine.
    For me it was like telling me to fix a computer.
    So I told-- I told, well, I said, let me take a look.
    So he gave it to me, and I turn it over.
    I screw the back.
    I look, and I look, I didn't even--
    an electric calculating machine, I never have seen it.
    I see in a corner is like a couple,
    a little angle with a screw is lying around.
    Oh, and this I thought--
    and I look, and I look, and I look, and I see where it is.
    You know, where it's missing.
    And I put it together, and it works.
    We tried it out.
    But that Scherwitz evidently asked who fixed it for him,
    for Scherwitz to do things.
    And with the big shots in town was, for him, a big thing
    because he was coming and telling him
    that he was fighting for us, that he needed the Jews
    and they are productive and they are specialist and all of this.
    And this one thing, so--
    and here what happened.
    It comes-- in a couple of months,
    again Roshman needs more men, more men, again 200 men,
    yes, big shot.
    And here, we had three brothers Kreunitz.
    They were all engineers.
    And how they get in?
    You know they didn't do anything,
    just because they were famous people evidently in Riga.
    I wasn't born in Riga.
    I was a-- and evidently, with protection they were there.
    And there was another engineer from--
    he studied in Grenoble, France, an electrical engineer,
    Mr. Henkin, nice people.
    And again, they were looking on how I work.
    And we were talking.
    So those three engineers, each one-- our shop
    was from the smallest one.
    So he gave one brother Kreunitz, and another brother Kreunitz,
    and three brothers Kreunitz.
    And then it remained like that.
    Mr. Lippert and his son, you know,
    his son I wouldn't even expect to send-- nobody
    to send away his son.
    The goldsmith was one, and he was very important
    because Scherwitz used to bring them gold, what
    the Germans robbed or all this.
    They would melt it out and make all kinds of beautiful rings
    you don't see, or cigarette lighters
    and whatever, all kind of boxes.
    There was a Gafanowicz, who was repairing the sewing machines
    upstairs in the--
    he could.
    And it was I or Mr. Henkin.
    And here, Mr. Henkin wasn't a production man, productive.
    However, here was the oberjude.
    You know what the oberjude is, the manager of the whole shops.
    You know, Mr. Sheinberg, he was a brother-in-law
    of Mr. Sheinberg.
    Oh, yeah, Mr. Sheinberg had two separate house with his wife.
    And lived, you know, and then Rudolf.
    And he was a brother-in-law.
    And I know for Lippert was a big decision to make.
    And I know, you know, Scherwitz used to give a couple of days
    to--
    and Mr. Henkin was very--
    Mr. Philipps, what was his name?
    Was very sad--
    Mr. Lippert was very sad.
    And I could see.
    And I was said too.
    Oh, yeah, and in my times already, in the last time,
    they tried to erase the mass graves
    that you used to dig out the killed people
    from the mass graves and put wood, you know,
    and put the corpse and burn them.
    It was already at the end.
    And even the smoke used to cover all Riga.
    And they used to do it about 10 miles away from Riga.
    You know, in Salaspils was where they
    used to kill off the people.
    Well, how did you know what they were doing?
    Through outside-- outside people used to bring in, like,
    he brought in the sand and gravel, and people--
    oh, yeah, firemen, for example, used
    to come and check our sprinkler system,
    from outside, firemen with the--
    firemen used to come.
    And he too, he used to do business
    with the Jews for valuables.
    So he used to come quite often.
    So he needed young people.
    And we were better fed.
    Strong people he would take from our people
    and dig out the corpses and burn them.
    And that was-- this too we found out.
    They didn't want to leave any witnesses.
    And people would work on that job about two or three weeks.
    And either you would get a scratch on handling the dead.
    You would get all kinds of poison, or from starvation.
    So these people used to leave-- they dug in a big hole,
    and there they would sleep.
    And they couldn't get out without a ladder.
    At night they would pull out the ladder.
    And boy, again, and I thought, who will he take.
    And oh, yeah.
    And we didn't know until--
    the whole business, we would line up in tent.
    They would read when Scherwitz was there and a representative
    from the Kaiserwald, from the concentration camp.
    They would call, and we would have to go out.
    We didn't know in the last minute.
    And I-- and I knew Henkin is his brother-in-law.
    And my gosh, here what happened.
    The day comes.
    It comes.
    But with this I used to make up my mind, who
    knows how many will survive or if any, will survive.
    But that's the day.
    However, we had one hope that something in Germany
    will happen because at that time, at end of the war,
    the Germans had--
    had the [NON-ENGLISH].
    How do you say it in English?
    Had the-- well, they didn't have a lock on the front.
    We're bombarded them, and we knew that maybe Hitler
    will be killed.
    We hoped that the war will be over suddenly,
    and maybe we will be saved.
    Then another thing what, for example, I didn't
    want to do this bad work.
    I still die anyhow.
    A sudden death, I was prepared and all right with.
    So he called when it comes to the shop.
    He calls me out.
    The masters used to call out or, all right, or a German.
    I don't remember.
    And I go out.
    And well-- And after we were lined up,
    the one, Scherwitz, used to go over and look at everybody.
    And usually he didn't interfere.
    He can do-- we have-- he has to give 200 Jews.
    Who goes?
    The masters, if they picked out--
    and you know, that was the first time.
    And he comes to me, and he grabs me from my button.
    And he said, no, this is a good worker.
    He said, there is a guter arbeiter
    and pushes me back and pulls out Henkin.
    Naturally, it wasn't--
    I would go, he would go, then who knew?
    But meanwhile, I was saved.
    And how was I saved?
    Because he found out who fixed that Mercedes calculator,
    and he remembered.
    Usually there were a lot of people, you know.
    And I was working in a little shop.
    I never thought he laid an eye on me.
    But he remembered.
    And he said, this is a guter arbeiter.
    So I don't know.
    I think he remembered, unless Lippert told him or something.
    Or maybe even the oberjude, his brother-in-law.
    Anyhow, so I was saved there.
    Of course, another one got on my place,
    but that was so unusual--
    usual, you know.
    Yeah, another thing what I want to tell you--
    the psychology of that life, of that period, was so tough.
    In peacetime, you cannot imagine how people think.
    The same, you can't imagine, for example,
    in normal days that a family, a father
    will give up his children, you know.
    But I saw it.
    They said-- and already, when they brought the German Jews,
    you know, and I thought that they brought them
    with families.
    But they said children separate and then parents separately.
    And the children, they put already in a van,
    you know, in an automobile.
    And they said any parents who want to go with the children
    is all right.
    Some others went.
    And I-- this I saw, when a mother wanted
    to go with her children, the husband holded them,
    and he said, wait.
    We don't know what it will happen.
    He said, if we will go out alive,
    we'll have children, something like that.
    They were crying.
    But this psychology, you save what you can.
    It was so inhuman.
    All human life was shifting, like you feel a battle of corn,
    you know, and one will fall out on the side and sprout again.
    And the others are grounded up in flour--
    the same.
    People were saving themselves if they could.
    Although, they didn't know what it will be there in the future.
    So that is one.
    So we have that one episode with the Czech Jews,
    with the Czechoslovakian Jew.
    You know what are these.
    And oh, yeah, then comes another episode.
    It gave them very, very--
    I would say it tension, with a lot of tension.
    We were-- at that time, we were already 600.
    And we were working.
    Oh, yeah, and Scherwitz comes and he
    said he doesn't give out any more Jews.
    And he said, I have papers.
    And he's-- and he tells that his--
    the commander of the Eastern Front is his friend,
    and he has papers.
    He said, that we are-- nobody will touch us.
    And he said, well, in fact, he has
    papers to take us to Germany.
    And he said there we'll go over with the machinery,
    and he has a boat already reserved.
    And he said, we'll set up a shop.
    And he said, you won't have to wear the Magen Davids.
    We wear those stars, and we have them,
    he says, in us, in us in German.
    We have them in our back.
    I said, we'll live.
    Nobody will know that you are Jews.
    And we'll survive the whole war.
    This man was a rather unusual Nazi, wasn't he?
    Right.
    An unusual Nazi, right.
    We don't know.
    And I'll tell you about--
    I'll tell you.
    I know the whole history about him too.
    And here-- and we kept on working.
    And really, every-- we were happy because we are still
    alive and there.
    And we kept working.
    And Scherwitz, he brings all kind of committees
    with German big shots.
    And they go over and look.
    And he tells us in advance.
    He said, when he's bringing somebody,
    and the machine should not come this.
    And thought, you know?
    And he was there.
    At that time, I don't know again the date, but the Russians--
    it was past Stalingrad, and the Russians
    started around Leningrad to free themselves.
    Leningrad, you know, is in the north.
    You know what Leningrad is.
    You have an idea.
    Isn't that where your brother Max was killed?
    No, he was in Stalingrad.
    Stalingrad.
    Stalingrad is south, but Leningrad was Petersburg,
    where the czars lived.
    And that's in the north.
    And that's not far from Riga.
    And this is near Murmansk, you know,
    when you see the European map.
    And the Russians broke through.
    And you see, Leningrad was surrounded.
    And they were starving and cannibalism, everything was.
    But the Russians broke through the front.
    But they started coming towards the--
    to liberate the Baltic States.
    Scherwitz was in town.
    He used to be in town, always with the big shots.
    And he was an organizer.
    He could get things, even for the kitchens.
    Food was, for the Germans, were--
    were food too scarce, you know.
    He used to go in the country--
    he had a car--
    and bring sometimes meat or a calf.
    Here's what happened.
    The Russians broke through the front
    and started to come into Riga.
    They came so close, about eight miles from Riga,
    that we could hear the bombardments
    from cannon bombardments.
    And Scherwitz is in town.
    We see a lot of the German army with cars and trucks,
    that they are going back, you know.
    And we knew that something here is--
    so the whole-- with the Jews, you know.
    And at that time they were killing.
    Our place they didn't touch.
    But other places, where the Jews were spread out and living
    with Germans as workers, that they're
    eliminating and eliminating and this and that.
    And the concentration camp is almost empty already.
    And we didn't know.
    We always were suspicious that they
    won't leave us for the Russians, that they will kill us off.
    And in fact, that was the idea, that they wouldn't leave us
    as witnesses or as helpers.
    If we are there, the Russians can
    take over and start working.
    We'll work for the Russians.
    So here we take-- we hear and we see
    that something is happening.
    So people start organizing.
    And they said they may come and take
    us, and take us to Salaspils, you know, where this is like--
    They told us in a Russia place that the Russians may come over
    at any time, and the Germans may come to take us out.
    Or they may want to even shoot us on the place.
    But we have to organize.
    And here was, we are going to do it-- was worked out a plan.
    And they tell us fast and go from place to place.
    And they worked out a plan.
    Somebody, they were-- we had a lot of intelligent-- the cream
    of the crop in our place.
    They are all young and a lot of educated people,
    because usually in Europe, we didn't have college educated,
    as many as-- in America every child goes to college.
    There were a few.
    And they worked out a plan over teletype.
    The people there were repairing trucks.
    And we'll go with the trucks.
    And there was a wooden fence and push it down with the truck.
    In the fence, you go and push down
    the fence to open the fence, and the others should run.
    In case we-- the few Germans came, or they--
    till the Latvian guards from around, you know,
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    We should have-- anybody should have arms, not arms
    like firearms, but hammers.
    You know, the shoemakers have hammers, have files, and bars.
    Whatever anybody can, we should have something.
    Could be a hand for hand fight we'll have to fight.
    And there'll be-- we had a siren for alarm.
    They said when the minute comes, push the button.
    Over on the side will come, everybody should go out.
    The trucks will push down.
    They told us which wall-- you know, a whole side of it--
    all the trucks.
    And there will, right away with trucks, and whoever will,
    there will be-- they said some will fall,
    but some will save them.
    We'll go towards the Front to save ourselves or to hide
    or whatever we can.
    And it was, here again.
    It was such tension and such--
    it is hard, it is hard for a person or for me, now, to--
    it was, again, here is the moment of life and death,
    of decision is coming,
    And we knew that it won't be easy.
    And you know you were looking on whatever.
    Some get pipe pieces, some this-- whatever anybody and--
    and it was very tense.
    And you know-- oh yeah, on the other hand,
    you see that the end is near.
    You hear that it's--
    they're, the Russians are coming, they're here.
    And on the other hand, we knew how weak
    we are in comparison to them.
    But some had courage, and they lifted us up.
    And it was the decision.
    I remember I had something, too.
    And like everybody, waiting.
    What did you have?
    I don't remember.
    Something like a little piece of iron bar or something.
    And here what happened.
    All and this stems from Scherwitz come,
    comes from down, Scherwitz And in the army, the German--
    oh yeah, some army are going back and forth.
    Scherwitz come, and he's excited, too.
    And he had some, among the Jews, good friends with whom he's
    better off and with whom he was joking and talking.
    And evidently, that's what I was told.
    And [PERSONAL NAME],, I understand he is now
    in Israel--
    talked to him and told him the situation.
    And they said to him, you stay with us,
    and we'll save you, because you were good or decent,
    and if you want so the war can be over for you--
    we'll-- nothing will happen to you,
    because we'll kill the Russians.
    So here what it did.
    Scherwitz made an Appell.
    And it wasn't lunchtime.
    Usually, he would talk in lunchtime or after work.
    It was, like, 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
    We were working till 5 or 6.
    An Appell, and we--
    on Appell, we had that alarm when you--
    everybody comes to the big dining room.
    You know, it was in, like in army.
    And we came.
    And Scherwitz came out, when they see him, like that--
    I know everything what you think and what is going on here.
    And he said, don't make any dummheit.
    Dummheit mean dumb things.
    Are you listening to me--
    don't make any dumb things.
    And he said, here I have the papers-- he takes down.
    He said-- and here what happened.
    I promise you, and I guarantee you,
    if we see the Russians inside--
    if the Russians are coming--
    when we have them inside, he said,
    I'll take the Latvian guards, and I move away.
    And you'll be free, he said.
    And if not, I have the papers, and we'll go to Germany after,
    if it comes down.
    And he said, don't make any dumb decisions.
    And he said-- oh yeah, and he said that the-- then he
    said I should stay with you.
    And this, he said, that's a bad idea for me.
    He said, they would zerfleischen.
    It means, in German, they would cut me up in pieces.
    And somehow, we quiet. down.
    He said-- and he repeated it, again.
    I take the guards, if I see the Russians are coming,
    I take the guards away.
    And they come with me, and you will be where you are,
    ready to come down.
    Then it proved that the Germans sent new troops,
    and they stopped the Russians.
    In fact, they push them back.
    And that would happen in the Front with the Germans if you--
    they had the Second World War--
    they would go back, come again.
    And that is this episode is.
    But it is so engraved, like, in my mind
    or in my heart of the days of, the hours of excitement,
    the hours of decision.
    And while there was, from one side the sun were shining up.
    Going up, there were the clouds there.
    And you didn't know where you will finish, in the darkness
    or in the light.
    And we survived.
    Now, one more episode for there.
    So the Russians-- we have still time, yeah.
    So the Russians were held back.
    And in fact, and it calmed down.
    However, the Germans weren't sure what's going to happen.
    And our plant was, in Riga, was like here with Berlin.
    Riga was between--
    Riga was divided into parts by the Dvina, a river,
    a big river, almost as wide as the Ohio.
    And it was for shipping.
    So usually-- and this was in before in previous wars--
    we were on the eastern side of the river.
    If the Russians would come, they would come first.
    And the river then is a barrier for, again, for war operations.
    The bridges, they blow up the bridges,
    and you cannot come over.
    On one side would be one army, and the other,
    they shoot at each other, and you can't pass.
    So the Germans didn't know what is going to happen.
    Here what would happen--
    so Scherwitz wanted to save us.
    So in a few days after we come down,
    about a week, all of the sudden, Scherwitz
    says we are going to evacuate this site,
    and we are going until we get the boat.
    Yeah, until we get the boat to go to Germany,
    we are going over in Salaspils.
    In Salaspils where the-- you know, like Babi Yar,
    where they were killing all the Jews--
    and nearby was a concentration camp for Latvians,
    for non-Jews.
    And again, how can you believe, you know.
    [TELEPHONE RINGING]
    So one morning, again, we--
    he made an Appell.
    And he says, we are going to Salaspils.
    And he said, don't worry.
    He said, we are just--
    we want to be safe there.
    And as soon as a boat comes, he has all arranged.
    We are getting all the machinery.
    We'll get on trucks, and we're taking over, and don't worry.
    And I don't know how other people felt,
    but I did not believe in-- you know, it could be.
    Anyhow.
    We got up in rows like soldiers, eight in a row.
    And we were marching.
    It was about 8,10 miles and with a lot
    of guards with the machine guns, with the SS.
    And we didn't know--
    is it-- the Germans were famous with telling stories that--
    when they were taking out women and children and the elderly,
    that-- he said, they want to take them out from Riga,
    and they are taking them to somewhere to the--
    where there is more food-- it'll be easier to food,
    and it won't be so crowded.
    And they were taking them and killing them.
    We knew, already.
    We didn't know what it will be.
    So it was.
    But you could not-- there was no way to do--
    run from, when there are so many with many machine guns,
    they're machining you, gun down.
    A few boys hid in the building.
    And when we came back later on, they
    were shot, because the Latvians were there.
    And they tried later on to get out of the building and--
    So here's what happened.
    I remember when--
    Salaspils were in the woods, I remember when we came,
    and we had to go through the woods.
    There were no roads like here.
    And the woods were woods.
    You had to walk through the woods.
    There wasn't made the roads for cars, though.
    And I remember.
    I thought maybe we should run, and then we
    could save ourselves.
    But on the other hand, if you do something prematurely, you--
    so--
    Were the woods like our woods?
    Where they as thick as our woods or--
    Thicker.
    Thicker?
    Thicker and no roads.
    And you come in in the woods, it's dark.
    And the land was pretty rich there,
    and the lumber were growing.
    However, the brush were cut out.
    There weren't so many brush or blackberries
    with the stickers-- we didn't have at all.
    So anyhow, we came with him up there.
    They brought us to the concentration camp
    from the Latvians.
    We had a free big barrack.
    And Scherwitz came with us.
    And we saw how they, in the concentration camp,
    how the Latvians, they had to carry big hunter bag, big rocks
    and this and put it away.
    Some would pick it up from the same pile and go a big circle
    and drop it off and rest and pick it up, again.
    And here is a barrack.
    And it wasn't-- this I remember, it was in April, end of April,
    because the sun was warm.
    The snow was melted.
    And Scherwitz comes in, and he calls in the Germans--
    which, again, were the criminals who
    were taking care of those concentration camp people.
    From the Latvians, it was more like a jail for Latvians
    who were arrested for crimes.
    And he tells them, to them--
    the people who were supposed to take care of us-- he said--
    and he was already Oberleutnant, you
    know, a big chin and tiny mouth.
    And he said, any things what they do, you don't punish them,
    you tell to me, and I'll be here every day--
    Scherwitz and Germans.
    Over this concentration camp was a Mr Krauzer.
    He was before in the ghetto over here--
    Krauzer, too, a murderer.
    He was a very--
    like Roshmann, even worse, I think.
    And here what happened--
    Was he a German?
    Oh, sure.
    Yeah, he was a German, an SS.
    And he was there.
    Was he have lower rank than--
    That Scherwitz?
    Yeah.
    But after Scherwitz left, he comes in.
    And you know, he was such a mean one,
    he was pretty mild with us.
    Not only that, he goes and tells to take food
    from the Latvian prisoners and bring over here.
    They brought so much bread and grease that--
    all kind of fat, you know.
    Then he said to us, why should you be indoors, you come out,
    the sun is shining, get a little sun.
    And we were there about three or four days like that.
    This, the murderers, that Krauzer and the others,
    which they were terrible, they were nice to us.
    And after a few days, the Russians, evidently,
    who were pushed away back, were coming back to Lenta.
    You know, Lenta was our place.
    And really, he came with the trucks.
    We start loading the machinery.
    And they loaded us up in boats.
    It took a couple days-- first, the machinery people
    were hauling, the sewing machines
    and all of what we have.
    We had a lot with the garage tools.
    And we came.
    And they put us in a boat, in a cattle boat, you know.
    It was-- the manure was there.
    And I remember I got so seasick.
    Everybody got seasick for-- and they
    had barrels where women and men were together.
    You have to make, urinate and this.
    And they have a few barrels.
    It was like a big barges.
    And I remember I was so seasick.
    I have no food.
    And I thought if that boat would sink
    that would be a good thing.
    It was, again, too bad.
    And oh yeah, and before we left, Scherwitz
    said, see you in Germany, and as I promised you,
    we'll have a shot.
    And he-- we landed in Gdynia--
    Gdansk where now is the Polish states, what they started out
    with Gdansk or Gdynia.
    You were, you're in there, Poland.
    Right.
    We landed there.
    We didn't see anymore Scherwitz.
    We came on that land.
    And Germans took us over, and we landed in that concentration
    camp, Stutthof.
    But then I'll tell you the other story.
    Was that the last time you saw Scherwitz?
    Right, but I heard about him after the liberation.
    What did you hear about him?
    He was caught after the war in Brussels, Belgium.
    A man from our people recognized him.
    And about, too, it would be an interesting story.
    He turned him over to the authorities, that American.
    And he said that he wants to go to Israel or any place
    to be judged by Jews.
    He knew that he have offense.
    And then I don't know what happened.
    But I'll tell you why that man turned him
    over to the authorities from a Lenta man.
    That man was, again, he was married to a non-Jewish woman,
    and she went with him to the ghetto.
    However, I don't know what he was from occupation.
    He was quite intelligent and knew very well German.
    And his name was Jan Kolovich, but he changed his name
    to John Kolovich.
    And he was saying to authorities always that he's not Jewish.
    And they brought him in our place [RUSSIAN],, as bookeeper.
    Oh yeah, he was a bookkeeper.
    And he kept the books, because we were producing.
    And then In Germany, you had to.
    So he was.
    So John Kolovich.
    And he had it better being a bookkeeper and in the office.
    He knew Scherwitz well.
    And evidently he had something against Scherwitz,
    because the other Jews--
    I would let him go.
    In fact, there was, in the Jewish papers from New York,
    was write-ups about Scherwitz and about
    the story after the liberation.
    So that was--
    You don't know whatever happened?
    I don't know what happened.
    But I knew when I met, when I met refugees, or in Israel when
    I met something, and we were talking from the same--
    so they told us about Yankelovich.
    Now, when we landed, we landed our 600 people landed together.
    Were there women and-- as well as men with your group?
    Yeah-- no, not many there were.
    Because for example, in--
    seamstresses were women in our place.
    So from our 600 people, we landed at a unit in Stutthof.
    In Stutthof, we came.
    We were in two barracks that are small barracks.
    And I remember the first night when we landed,
    we had to lay on the side on the floor.
    It was floor, a little bit of straw,
    because you couldn't lay like that and take up so much room.
    We-- put us like sardines, they put us in.
    And after being there in Stutthof for about six weeks,
    they used to send us to work until we
    got lice and flea and bedbugs, German bedbugs or Polaks.
    You never saw a bedbug, probably, or lice and things.
    And anyhow, parts, again.
    What happened-- after about six weeks,
    industrialists came to that camp.
    And they came to us and used to ask--
    Was this IG Farben, by any chance?
    No, no, no, no.
    I don't know if--
    I heard there was speaking about.
    What we landed is in Magdeburg.
    It was a big factory for aluminum pots and pans
    that they converted it in making ammunition
    for flack, such big--
    these have somewhere for cannons.
    So the mechanics, this, they took out.
    But the tailors and the others they didn't need yet.
    So I know from my shtetl and from other, a lot of my friend
    remained there, and typhus broke out.
    And they closed the these.
    And the others perished.
    But from Lenta, I didn't count them,
    but I know from friends and here,
    and some are spread out in America, a few in Israel that
    were, we remained alive, yes.
    After Stutthof I went to Magdeburg.
    And then I'll tell you about Germany.
    That is a big story.
    Right after then went to--
    on the way to Germany.
    You came from Poland, is that right?
    No, to--
    Your ship--
    Oh, we were shipped already, yeah.
    Yeah, yeah, we landed at Gdynia Harbor in a barge
    where we were.
    In the barge we're put in that, there
    was no room to sit down, one by one.
    And the barge usually is high, about 8 feet.
    And we couldn't see what's going on with us.
    However, there was-- part of the barge had a roof,
    and most of it was open.
    And it was, you get tired standing up.
    We were pressed together.
    And the trip took, on the barge, I would say, 36 hours or so.
    And some-- you were sleeping standing up.
    But I remember, during the night,
    I managed to get on the roof, and I fell asleep on the roof.
    There were several people on the roof.
    And it was in April, and the weather was so cold that from--
    we didn't sleep for a long time.
    When I fell asleep, I woke up and was so cold and stiff,
    practically stiff.
    And finally, we arrived in Stutthof.
    And Stutthof was a small camp which had
    a camp for Jews and non-Jews.
    But each nationality were divided up.
    Was that in Germany?
    No, that was still Poland.
    Oh, maybe I am mixing up a little.
    Oh, I think that we had already.
    I see.
    From Stutthof, I think Stutthof--
    where I was, Stutthof-- and we worked there a few weeks.
    And then German industrialist came to Stutthof
    and were picking out young, able men to work in their factories.
    What were you doing in Stutthof?
    In Stutthof, just a concentration camp.
    And sequence, they took to the oven.
    They had a crematorium.
    And if we work there in Stutthof, we were to the woods,
    preparing the lumber, firing wood.
    We have to carry out from the woods trees.
    And there there were a lot of shoes
    from the people they killed off, mountains of it--
    and clothing we had to carry it from one
    warehouse to the other and clothing and something.
    And there were some shops.
    Some people were repairing those shoes or whatever.
    But it, mainly it was a concentration camp.
    And in a few weeks the industrialist came.
    And they sorted, again, people with trades.
    They took what they're interested.
    Because at that time, it was already 1944, and the Germans--
    their own people they mobilized.
    The Russians were coming already.
    I think they were already in the German territory.
    And it was after the invasion.
    So they shipped out their own people and brought in.
    So but they didn't take everybody.
    But I was lucky with--
    from our-- I think we arrived about 600, 700, maybe a couple
    hundred they picked out.
    And I was among them.
    And they brought us to Magdeburg.
    And there they put us to work.
    There was-- in Magdeburg, first, we landed in a camp
    from barracks with barbed wire.
    And on the next day, they took us to work.
    They brought us to a plant.
    And there they were making shells, shells for guns--
    all kinds, some for to fight, to shoot at airplanes.
    Some were about a foot long.
    Some were 20 inches long, big shells.
    And each machine was-- first, there
    was a German and then a Jew, a German on each machine.
    And after some times, they took away the Germans,
    and there were only over, in the whole room, one or two Germans.
    And the Jews worked it.
    They taught them how to play it.
    You know, it was each had a small job, but on the machines.
    So and we worked there for about a year,
    almost til the end of the war.
    And here what it used to happen--
    we worked in shift-- two shifts, 12 hours and 12 hours.
    And at that time, the Americans and the Allies, I would say,
    started, was bombing Germany.
    It was in full swing.
    OK, it was Magdeburg in Germany?
    Yeah, Magdeburg is in Germany.
    It is near the Elbe.
    In fact, this town is where Eisenhower met with Zhukov.
    The Russian and the American army met.
    And there is the Elbe River.
    And in fact, the Americans broke the Front.
    And the Germans wanted the Americans
    should occupy most of their territory,
    so that they didn't resist in that area.
    And they did not.
    There was a bridge, you know, and they
    didn't destroy that bridge, because they thought
    the Americans will come.
    But Eisenhower already made the--
    Eisenhower, the American government
    made a pact that the Russians go-- the Americans go up
    to the Elbe, and the Russians go farther.
    And so they waited for--
    of Germany was in full swing.
    In fact, over--
    I don't know in--
    where the Allies used to go, but they
    used to fly over Magdeburg.
    And whenever the Allies' Air Force
    used to fly over Germany--
    there it used to be-- over Magdeburg
    there used to be an alarm.
    And they had for us, under the plant, they had dug a ditch,
    and inside they put in big cement pipe, what
    you use for under highways.
    And it was about 5 and 1/2 foot.
    Were 5 foot in diameter, because I could walk in the middle
    without bending.
    Tall people had to bend a little, stoop a little.
    And they put a long pipe under the plant, you know,
    a long pipe, maybe, I would say, 800 feet long.
    And in the time of the alarm we used to go in.
    And a guard would stay on one side and a guard another.
    And that was they--
    the protection.
    If bombs would fall, I don't know if it would break the pipe
    or not-- you know, the heavy cement.
    But there we were.
    We would leave the plant.
    And for months it was going on.
    We used to have the alarm.
    And for us, the alarm--
    the Germans used to fear of the alarm.
    For us, it was-- first, we interrupted working,
    we could catch on our sleep.
    And it was a pleasure to hear that they are getting beaten.
    And but usually it would last sometimes an hour,
    sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes a little longer than an hour.
    The alarm would be called off, and we'd go back to work.
    Oh yeah, in time of the alarm, they
    would shut off all the electricity
    to darken the place.
    And one time--
    I think it was in April--
    that was already next year of April.
    The first was '44, that was '45 in April.
    I think it was the 11th of April,
    the alarm lasted from about 11 o'clock to 4 in the morning.
    And we knew it is--
    in fact, the pipe would vibrate.
    We knew it is--
    the town was bombarded.
    You see, our plant was on the edge of the town.
    It was an industrial site.
    And we knew it.
    Oh yeah, there were still with us Germans working.
    So they started to run away.
    And only the guards remained at the end of the pipe-- you know,
    the SS, we were under the SS guard.
    The SS were the storm troopers, Hitler's faithful garrison.
    And about 4 o'clock--
    and it was never a call-off of the alarm--
    we got out.
    And 4 o'clock in April, it's still dark.
    We come out, the sky is red.
    And we could see, because the city was about 7 miles away.
    Everything is burned.
    And the Germans were so sad and disheartened, even the guards.
    And they said, we are going to the barracks.
    We come to the barracks.
    And the barracks from the plant was still
    about a mile away or more.
    There was no water and no electricity.
    And when daylight broke, they said,
    who wants volunteer-- we have to bring water with buckets,
    do with a bucket.
    And in those days, I was young and strong,
    and I wanted to see it.
    So I volunteered, too, among others.
    They had probably 20 buckets or 30 buckets.
    And we went.
    And they had near--
    again, near the edge of the town,
    but you could see a lot of the buildings--
    there was a hand pump.
    And Germans were in a line, too, to water.
    And people are pumping.
    And then out of our line came, and we got the water.
    But I was observing the Germans.
    And the Germans were looking at us, and some with pity
    and some with rage, because some thought that--
    Hitler told them that the Jews made the war, you know.
    So they thought-- and they knew that we were Jews,
    and here they are.
    And some knew, and some were with pity.
    We looked terrible in those days, because we didn't
    have enough food and clothing, nothing to wash
    and nothing decent--
    it was torn.
    So we got the water.
    And we could see buildings collapsed and were smoldering
    and some were burning with a flame.
    And we came back to the barracks.
    And from the water they warmed up coffee.
    They used to give us black coffee with a piece of bread.
    That was our breakfast.
    And they sent us to the barracks.
    And we sat down there and waited.
    The next day we didn't go to work either.
    After the next day, they started--
    they were telling us that the plan is we can't work,
    because there is no water and electricity.
    So they started making it in columns of about 100 or so.
    And beside in that plant and in that place
    where we worked there were other people, non-Jews.
    There were about 1,200.
    But the Jews, they start sending on fortification work.
    What was the fortifications?
    About 4 or 5 miles away, they made a line
    over meadows and fields.
    We were digging holes and putting in parts of rails.
    And they was digging this way and that way across and very
    close together, about 2, 3 feet.
    And it was supposed to hold up-- back tanks or--
    and we were doing that.
    And at night, we used to come to sleep.
    Oh yeah, food was a little better, because we
    were fed by the Wehrmacht.
    Wehrmacht was the German army, not the SS.
    Before we were guarded by the SS.
    And one time like that, being in the field,
    there was a big alarm.
    And on the field work, a lot of SS men used to guard us.
    And some were young or some were even boys.
    But in the uniform with guns there
    were 13 or 14-years-old boys, and some were tall.
    There was an alarm.
    And all the guards, they knew already
    something They ran and left us like that.
    So somehow, we find out that the Front,
    that the Americans broke the Front through,
    and the Germans are running.
    And we were always--
    we Jews, we were always, at that time when
    we see the war is at the end, we were afraid.
    What will they do with us, because we
    knew how much they killed, and they didn't want anybody
    to survive.
    So we knew the war, it won't last long.
    But what we were afraid--
    at the end, these SS men will open fire on us.
    And if they run, so we thought we are free.
    And evidently, a few said that you are free.
    So we start crying and hugging each other
    and thought we are free, we are alive.
    And oh yes, and so we started to go to town.
    And hungry we were.
    And there was a--
    this order to get some food.
    And some went in bombed out houses, in cellars.
    And some found some food or something.
    But and that happened about 11 o'clock in the morning.
    Towards evening when it started to get dark about 6, 7 o'clock,
    German civilians came and said we should go all
    and we'll have it--
    they'll-- we should go all in, back to the barracks.
    They'll take us home.
    They'll feed us.
    So we went.
    Because we are in a strange place, we couldn't escape.
    We couldn't hear what happened on there.
    We went there to the barracks.
    And on the evening, the SS came back and took us over.
    You know, the civilian were without guns.
    The SS are at this, and they're mean.
    And we didn't-- we thought, oh, we made a mistake to releasing
    to them.
    And maybe now, they'll take us and kill us.
    But we are already in the barracks,
    we are surrounded with barbed wire and guards and that.
    And here-- that what happened.
    The Americans came to one side of the Elbe.
    And all the bridges-- they did not, evidently,
    by order from the German leadership,
    not to explode the bridges.
    It was ready for the Germans to come to Magdeburg to--
    like, going over from Bellaire to Wheeling.
    And they didn't go.
    So the Germans evidently found out.
    And they came.
    guarded that.
    However, in those days, the Front were moving.
    And the Russians were pressing, and they
    didn't want to let us fall in in Russian hands.
    They started to march.
    And Jews here, all the Jews or all non-Jews were marching.
    All the foreigners which worked in Germany--
    and there were millions of them, French and Italian
    and Hungarians they brought in as workers to replace
    the Germans--
    they were marching.
    So they start to march.
    They march us, too.
    And here comes a very interesting episode.
    And we marched, and we never came back.
    We went forward.
    We used to sleep in barns.
    And they used to feed us in potatoes.
    In each little town, they had already arranged.
    Before a little town, there used to be big bales of tomato--
    potatoes, you know, cooked potatoes with the peeling.
    And they would give three or four small potatoes, three
    or four potatoes--
    eat, march.
    Towards the evening, again, we would come to a small town,
    and then potatoes.
    And we were marching several days like that.
    At night, in a barn.
    And one time, one marching, they let us rest in a tennis court.
    You know how tennis court is?
    The ground is plastered to here or here with a fence, usually,
    not a high fence.
    And they got us in.
    And it was April.
    And the sun-- April in Germany at daytime,
    it's like the climate here-- not severe winters and not too hot
    summers.
    And in April, it's nice.
    So I'm tired.
    We are-- usually were.
    They let us rest, and we lie down, sit down
    on the grass or there.
    And we fall asleep.
    While we sleep, all of the sudden, a
    bombardment without warning.
    Until today, I don't know-- and the other people don't know--
    who was shooting.
    At the beginning, we thought Germans were shooting.
    And we thought, here is the place what they'll mow us down.
    Some say that there was a lot of bombardments going
    on, that enemy fire, their enemy, German enemy
    place-- you know, Allies.
    So a gathering of people, they threw down some bombs.
    And in the place--
    for me, first, it-- something fell, a grenade or something.
    It covered with mud, you know.
    And it fell just like that.
    And I felt pain here.
    And I take a look.
    My coat was open, but there was no time.
    And I touched if it's blood--
    nothing, it's dry.
    And it was everything happened so fast.
    And I look around.
    There was screaming.
    Women we had too, you know--
    blood and this.
    My gosh, and it was--
    I thought that's it, that is the Aktion, the Aktion what
    we used to call it, the Aktion, you know--
    that the killing off.
    And but screaming, and the guns are from outside.
    And everybody was pressing towards the gates.
    Everybody wants to run out.
    And I think the guard made it.
    They ran away.
    The gates, people could go--
    come out.
    But we were many.
    And I thought as fast, my gosh, if the Germans are doing it,
    they'll throw a bomb here, where there is a big crowd.
    And somehow, I start running in the other end.
    And there were two more boys which run after.
    And we come, there was a little, a door.
    These were, with two guys you could
    go in with a car or a truck.
    But there was, like, a door from wire to-- and it is open.
    And the three of us run.
    And from far away, you could see is it was a park or a woods,
    you know.
    And as tired and as weak and as--
    notice to where, somehow, we got so much strength.
    I remember the way I felt-- it is now or never.
    And we started to run.
    And I was the first running on--
    to the other boys.
    And I-- it was I said, let's run, let's run.
    And like in the army, where we were zigzagging.
    And they-- and I didn't hear and didn't want to hear.
    I thought if they'll shoot on us and get us,
    it's better this way as to beat them.
    And we ran, and we ran.
    And pretty soon, we felt that we are-- they had rifles,
    but we are out of range with the rifles.
    And it was over meadows, like pastures.
    And we slowed down.
    Before it was running.
    But I remember the chest started to hurt.
    And we slowed down.
    And then we came to a thicket of trees.
    And we come therein.
    We saw there were trenches dug, like for soldiers.
    And we came in, we jumped in.
    And nobody was there.
    And we came in and we tell we're alive.
    And we thought, what are we going to do from now.
    And we decided we should do nothing--
    stay there, because if--
    while it is fresh, if they will see us,
    if they want to gather us-- or even civilians--
    they'll turn us in.
    Were the other two boys with you Jews?
    Yeah, yeah.
    What were their names?
    One was Kovnak, and the other was Baron.
    Did you know them before?
    Yeah, yeah
    Were they from Riga?
    One was from Riga, and one was from a little town--
    in fact, where my grandparents were born, from Dankere.
    And we decided to stay there in the dugout--
    what do you call the trench.
    And we stayed there.
    And we don't know what happened with the others.
    We stayed there overnight.
    And you know, April, the days are nice,
    but nights are cold, again.
    But we were together, pressed together
    to keep each other warm.
    And we fell asleep.
    And I remember about when it started,
    the day started to break, we woke up, cold
    and like ice, teeth and damp.
    And we thought the best would be to come out.
    And the sun started to--
    and get what the sun is shining-- it was shaded.
    And we stay.
    And we don't know what to do.
    And again, we wouldn't be-- we would stay to steal.
    People would have food.
    And another thing, for example, today,
    if you don't have food for a day or two, you can fast, easy.
    Our organism was so run down that it really-- we
    needed food.
    The hunger was terrible.
    But we don't know what to do.
    We're-- we think to go, and maybe we'll run in the house,
    in a German, and ask for food, a bit.
    And here, what happened-- while we were thinking, we debate,
    and we--
    what we should do--
    a German soldier came over, an elderly man in a uniform,
    an elderly, about 40, 50--
    not from the SS, but the Wehrmacht.
    And he comes, and he said to us, oh, you are from the--
    yesterday's raid.
    And we said, yes.
    So he said, you go this way, go this way--
    and then gives us directions.
    He said, there are guarded, the people are guarded,
    and they'll be led away.
    And here, again-- and he walks by.
    Oh yeah, first he asks, are you wounded, are you wounded--
    do you need medical help?
    And he said, if you are--
    medical help, he said, there's ambulance,
    a field ambulance is there, not too far, and you go there.
    So we tasted already freedom.
    We thought, here we are away, but we are away
    from the SS people.
    And we decided, as soon as we'll be out of his sight,
    instead of going there, we'll go in the opposite direction.
    And so we did, and so we did.
    And again, our main problem is how to get food.
    And we walk.
    We go by homes.
    We are afraid to go in and ask--
    we'll be reported.
    Oh yeah, from the camp, they had-- we could wear hair,
    but they cut out with--
    as far as clippers are--
    here, we looked like Mongolians, you know,
    so we could be recognized.
    We didn't have hats.
    And we walk, and we walk.
    And we-- finally, another German run into us, a uniform.
    You see, on the Front, we're very close.
    And he said, if you are from the escaped people
    from the foreigner or this, then we
    have orders to bring you to the commandant
    of that little town--
    I don't know the name.
    And he brings us there.
    And he brings us there.
    And he bring us in, and some of the people
    said, here, here is a guard.
    They takes a soldier with a rifle
    and keep them there outside near a road.
    And he said, he'll call.
    The SS will come and pick us up.
    So we thought, again, we are in the lion's mouth, again.
    And here what happened--
    we stayed there.
    And he said, within an hour or so, that SS will be here.
    The SS didn't come for an hour, two hours, three hours.
    And that soldier who was--
    he was a young soldier who was guarding us called--
    and we are, I think, near the City Hall or somewhere.
    It was a big building--
    called another soldier.
    He said he should change him up, because he
    has to go on and have lunch or breakfast, and these remain.
    Then it was when the SS didn't come.
    And about 3, 4 o'clock, then the guards
    started to change regularly, every two or three hours.
    And we waited.
    And we asked for food.
    We told them we were hungry.
    We didn't eat since yesterday.
    My gosh, they brought us out food,
    and it was the best food we ever had.
    It was a soup thick with meat, with beans or peas
    and a piece of bread.
    And we wait like that.
    And it was 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock.
    And a German who we could talk, and we were talking-- maybe
    we should tell him we are not Jews.
    And because they had other foreign people, Christians
    and these.
    So here what it said--
    what we tell that one soldier-- we said,
    it was a misunderstanding, we're not supposed to be with the SS,
    we were here, foreign workers.
    And it was a bombardment, and we escaped.
    And here we are, we are not Jews, we are Latvians.
    Oh, he thought, oh, if it's so he's
    going to tell the commandant it was a misunderstanding.
    So sure enough, he goes in, and we were called in.
    And there sits a German.
    And he was an amputee with a uniform, a young German,
    about 35, but from the Wehrmacht, not from the SS.
    With the Wehrmacht, we were much easier.
    The SS were the real indoctrinated haters,
    ignorant haters.
    But these were Germans, or some were--
    in fact, some maybe had sympathies with Jews,
    with us or with anybody and had an antipathies to Hitler,
    you know.
    So he called us.
    He said, if you are not Jews, how did you get there?
    And when we were passing by, we saw
    Latvians were working under a bridge, some doing some work.
    We recognized Latvians.
    We said we were working there, and it
    was a bombardment, and we--
    How could you recognize Latvians from Germans?
    And you can.
    [LAUGHS] You can.
    If you come, for example, in Ireland,
    and you'll see Americans, you'll recognize Americans.
    But I couldn't recognize an American Jew from an American--
    No?
    --regular person.
    Well.
    You could recognize a Latvian from a Latvian Jew?
    Right, right.
    Did you wear any kind of badge or anything?
    No, no, no.
    And then we talked.
    And we heard them talking the language.
    They were talking Latvian.
    And we said, we were working there and there.
    And then the land came, and we got lost and this.
    And even he said to the guard, take him over to that school.
    There are gathered Auslander, you know, foreigner.
    They took us out, three off of the door.
    There's we see-- and there were Auslander--
    French and Italian, Hungarians-- everybody who were marching.
    Everybody was marching Auslanders away from the Front.
    But there were no Jews there?
    No, no Jews.
    Did they recognize you as Jews?
    No, no, no.
    Here were there-- some maybe did, but we never got together.
    We-- that was our--
    we should be spread among them.
    When here that was trouble started for us, but not as big.
    They let us in.
    And they were--
    Oh yeah, and I think that school,
    they decided that they left him.
    The Germany got small, because the Allies
    were coming from one side, the others from--
    and there were no marching farther.
    And they were settled until the war will end.
    And it was probably in the end of April.
    In May, May 15th was the end of the war, the middle of May.
    So here what happened-- and they let us in.
    And we used to come--
    I think, well, I think we are saved,
    they won't shoot these people.
    You understand?
    We still thought that the Jews, they'll annihilate us.
    and I thought, it looks like we are safe.
    They let us in and with this-- and it was a big crowds.
    And I said, they won't shoot these people.
    And we are with them.
    So when time came and everybody was sleeping on the floor,
    in a corner.
    We didn't care.
    The main thing, we thought we'll be alive.
    And we thought we are the only one.
    We didn't-- the only ones.
    We didn't know what with the rest will happen or happened.
    And these foreigners, they had rationing cards for food.
    And the next morning, there was a field kitchen.
    And everybody was coming with this card.
    They got bread and this.
    Then they cooked coffee.
    At lunchtime, they had, like, a soup--
    everybody with a card.
    And we don't have it.
    And to go to press in, we were afraid
    that we'll be recognized.
    And you don't know who what's what.
    So again, with the hunger.
    What it did happen--
    what, how did we do?
    First, sometimes at lunchtime-- in fact, the first lunch,
    after everybody got this, his portion, there were,
    it's called a nachschlag.
    They were giving anybody who wants a refill,
    they were giving without the card.
    We were first.
    Then when they were preparing the food--
    peelings, potato peelings, or a half a rotten carrot
    or half a rotten--
    they would throw out, and there was a, like, a garbage pile--
    we would go and pick out.
    Could you stay together?
    Together, yeah, together.
    And we would go out.
    And it shouldn't be suspicious that we managed.
    One by one, we would pick out.
    And there was a big pile of thrown out vegetables, so
    would pick out some potatoes and hand held the peelings.
    And we had, like, from a coffee can, like, jars.
    And they, too, they had jars, some of them, plates--
    the foreigner.
    And we used to bring it, the peeling,
    put in in a coffee can.
    And outside they had to-- they used to make fires,
    because some used to organize baking.
    And we would cook these peelings and fill up our stomach.
    So we were pretty happy about that--
    and wait until after they would feed these,
    wait for the nachschlag.
    You know, if there is leftover, they did this,
    we would be the first in that.
    They would call out if somebody wants that.
    So we lived like that till the liberation.
    Till the liberation we lived there in school.
    And I think we did move to other schools.
    They moved us around.
    But it was the same, and we had already a modus vivendi.
    The liberation had its dramatic moments, too, but here's what--
    we just went to bed, and we knew something is going to happen,
    because--
    and that the Front is closed.
    Because here what happened--
    a lot of Polish people, mostly, used
    to go and go through the line, go to the Americans.
    The Americans were there.
    And with the Americans, they would
    give them chocolate and these and come back.
    And the Germans would let them through.
    They would let the communication between the civilians
    and the American Front--
    not so with the Russians, because the Germans actually
    were begging.
    They wanted to be occupied by the Americans,
    not by the Russians.
    They were afraid of the Russians.
    And here what happened-- we went just to bed--
    not to bed, on the floor lie down.
    And In the morning, people come in-- the Russians are here.
    Russia came in when we were liberated.
    And it was, it's called Burg instead of--
    Burg near Magdeburg.
    That's a town.
    And that town was famous for-- they had shoe factories.
    And they said the Russians came in.
    And here what happened--
    a lot of the foreigners, as soon as they
    heard the Russians are there--
    went to the-- went to town, to downtown,
    and broke in and started to get material, to rob,
    or how do you call it when--
    after a riot?
    Loot.
    Loot, yeah, were looting stores.
    And the Russians would let them.
    And the Russian soldiers did the same.
    We, the three Jews, we were afraid, because our life,
    we saved it.
    We didn't want-- we stayed there.
    And they used to bring in.
    And then they said that the Russians wouldn't
    let them anymore doing.
    And they were shooting, in fact, in the air,
    not to let them loot.
    And we were staying.
    And we stayed there at the school till about 12,
    1 o'clock.
    And the most of the people got out to the street and these,
    we were.
    And again, here, we went out.
    And we-- then we went already, three together.
    And again, we needed food.
    Somehow, it was disrupted, the feeding business and this.
    And they're going.
    They used to go and loot or, I don't know, they had money.
    They weren't-- we didn't have anything.
    We were like prisoners.
    So we thought-- and we knew the Russians came in.
    The best is to meet a Russian, a Jewish Russian soldier.
    They would start walking, and a lot, when occupation,
    there's a lot of soldiers on the street and going.
    And we look at their faces.
    We look at their faces, you know.
    And here, we detected one.
    You know how a Jew look-- his black hair,
    face with a little nose, maybe or--
    [LAUGHS]
    Semitic?
    Semitic features.
    And here we detect one.
    And we go over.
    And we speak Russians, too, Russian, too.
    And we said, are you Jewish?
    And we are the only one-- the Jews who saved ourselves.
    He said, no, I'm not Jewish.
    But he said, my commander who is the commandant of this town
    is a Jew.
    He said, and said, I'll take you over.
    And sure enough he brings us with--
    to a house.
    And he goes up.
    And here comes out the Russian Jewish commander.
    What was his name?
    I don't know.
    But I'll tell you what he said-- that is--
    and he said-- and when he looked at us,
    he was so stunned, like that.
    And he said, he said, you are the first Jewish people
    I encountered.
    And he says, you know-- and he put his hand around us.
    And he said, and that's important.
    Listen, he said, [NON-ENGLISH]---- that he speaks Yiddish with
    us--
    I'll set you up well, and I'll feed you well.
    And [NON-ENGLISH] means I have them in the ground--
    not of the Germans, of his Russians, and [NON-ENGLISH]..
    And he said, [NON-ENGLISH] on his Russians--
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    He felt that he, too, is hated by the Russians.
    And he said, they knew that I am--
    know that I'm Jewish, but I don't
    care, the hell with them-- about his Russians.
    And he said and I'll set you up, he said, in this house,
    together with me, I'm going to tell the landlady.
    It was like a little apartment.
    They should fix a room for you, and you'll be with me,
    and he said.
    And he talked, and he said how and then oh, he said,
    what they do to the Germans, the [NON-ENGLISH]..
    [NON-ENGLISH] mean the SOBs.
    And he said, we'll give them.
    And he said, [NON-ENGLISH].
    And he said, I'm going to tell the landlady to fix a room.
    You'll stay with me, and you'll have it good, he said.
    And he said, meanwhile, go to town and find--
    I want a good photo camera--
    if you find a photo store, you come and tell me,
    and I'll go in and I'll get a camera.
    It was still on the next day.
    And the next day, that looting and this
    is allowed by the army and these,
    and especially, the Russians were so mad at the Germans.
    But the population, the foreigners,
    they gave them a few hours until they wanted everything
    for themselves that they would--
    and they had to--
    probably, it was orders not to let them.
    So we went to town, and we look for-- oh yeah, another thing.
    And before we left, we told him we are hungry.
    So he goes in and brings out an American can with armor-made
    you know, American--
    he was a Russian, but the food was American--
    and gives that conserved meat, a loaf of bread.
    And for us, it was good, and it tasted good in those days.
    When I came to America-- it taste so good-- when I came
    to America, I asked for this.
    I want to see, did they sell it?
    And they said, yes, and I open--
    it was salt, too salty.
    And it wasn't-- but then it tasted like cold chicken
    or something.
    And we were so hungry, and we were eating it
    in a small slice with bread.
    So and we went, and we found a camera store,
    and we're trying to tell him.
    It took us a couple hours.
    And he said, he'll go over, but he said,
    I have some news for you.
    He said, you can't stay with me.
    What is the news, he said, it's an order--
    the war isn't over yet.
    You see, the war was over in that place.
    We were liberated, but the Germans were still resisting.
    And he said, there is an order-- since we are Latvians that
    are Russian citizens, because Russia occupied Latvia
    before the war started, so that all the Russian citizens have
    to get in uniforms and help fight.
    And nearby was a movie theater.
    And he said, here is the gathering place.
    And [LAUGHS] and in we go.
    And in we went, and out you couldn't go anymore.
    And there were already Polish people and not Latvians.
    And Russian people, somehow, where they lived.
    And we are to be.
    And we lost contact with him.
    That was the first and the last we saw of that guy.
    And on the next day, they started--
    so that was towards evening.
    And we slept over there.
    And they had, like a movie, the soft chairs, almost
    like on the chairs.
    And it was a good, probably 150 people there or maybe more.
    On the next day they put us out in rows like young recruits
    and were marching with us with the Russians.
    And the Russian soldiers over--
    Did they give you uniforms?
    No, not yet.
    They were marching us to a camp.
    And they march.
    But the others were, you see, workers, ,
    and they were fed well, well enough to go on living.
    You know, they looked right.
    And we were already so worn out.
    And they march us, and we were marched together.
    And we said, eh, that this no, not for us.
    Finally, and they marched fast.
    And we were weak already from those marches
    and not eating that.
    And then our spirits were low-- who
    wants to go and fight again?
    We barely remained alive on the--
    so and one of us, the Kovnat really got, like, diarrhea,
    and he had some ulcers, and he got sick.
    And we say to the guards, leave us, we'll come.
    We know where it is, we'll ask the Germans, and we will come,
    we can't keep up.
    And there were a few who wanted to carry us on their shoulder.
    They said, we help one if we can, we can.
    But finally, that other one, Kovnat, got so sick.
    And we said, we'll come, and they let us stay.
    And it was in the country.
    Where were you staying?
    They let us on the--
    Highway?
    Stay on the highway, of the highway.
    It was a smaller country road.
    And we went-- after we rested good, we walked, and we walked.
    And we saw a house.
    We came in in the house.
    And we thought it is a farmer's house.
    And here, we came in.
    And it was a house, all right.
    And there were Danish people, Danes.
    Our group-- and they organized themselves to go home.
    And young people with--
    they had the, like scouts wear, the bags on their shoulder,
    shoulder bags.
    And here what they were doing-- in the kitchen,
    they had a killed pig.
    The Germans escaped from that area and leave.
    And cattle were roaming around.
    Later on the Russians got them in trucks
    were taking them to Germany--
    to Russia with a sign-- this is a gift, [NON-ENGLISH] from--
    to this and this-- kolkhoz.
    A kolkhoz is like a-- you know what a kolkhoz is?
    A communal, like a kibbutz and this,
    like cows and a bull and a sheep and pig.
    But they had killed a pig.
    They were butchering it and making--
    because they were marching home.
    There were no communication.
    And they're young.
    So they-- we came in, they were pretty nice to us.
    So the head of the pig, if you want, they would cook.
    And oh yeah, they had a German kitchen.
    It wasn't with an electric stove.
    They have with the firewood.
    And they-- so it was hot.
    And they-- and they told us--
    they were talking German--
    that they this, they'll cook it, and they'll
    have food on the way, they say, if you want to.
    So oh yeah, and we told them, we are hungry.
    They gave us little pieces of the cooked food already.
    And so we stayed there.
    And the next day, I think, they left.
    We remained.
    Finally, we find out that the Russians had some headquarters,
    and Yugoslav soldiers worked there
    a lot, which were fighting with the Russians.
    And the Yugoslav soldiers that-- they are distributing
    food for foreigners.
    And they were having already oil there and meat, distribute--
    and bread.
    Because here what it is, the little towns
    were all full with some German inhabitants.
    But on the outside, the Germans left.
    They were crowded in--
    and a lot of foreigners there were.
    And people have to eat.
    And they organized right away.
    Well, how did you find this out if you were in this farmhouse
    that the Danes had just left?
    Yeah, well people used to--
    people were on the march.
    We used to go out and ask for this.
    And we came to a little town.
    And again, we came to--
    and there was the commandant was Jewish we
    didn't see anyone who was--
    But they sent us to the Yugoslavs.
    And the Yugoslav were very sympathetic to us.
    They find out that we are Jewish people-- we're only three.
    So for the bigger groups, they would weigh the food,
    and then us they used to give a piece of this.
    They would-- didn't bother weigh,
    because they have those scales--
    the big scale, you know, what you would weigh--
    and give us oil and from here.
    So oh yeah, so they said that we should go and find
    a place where to live with a German family.
    And we were walking and walking, and we find a house
    where a German, he had, he had in the backyard,
    like we have garages, they had a little, like, a workhouse.
    He had there all kind of supplies.
    And in the front, by the way, he was a storekeeper.
    He had a store.
    And he let us stay there.
    Well, did you just knock on each door?
    Right, right, knock on each door.
    And they-- oh yeah, that, that-- they said that the Germans have
    orders to take in foreigners.
    And if they'll find out-- yeah, that was an order-- if they'll
    find out that they had the room and didn't take in,
    they'll be punished.
    Always was with, always with punished--
    that was the German way and the Russian way.
    If you don't do that, you'll be punished.
    So they let us in and assigned us a place in that little room.
    And we lived.
    And here what we did--
    since we used to bring food, meat and oil,
    and we arranged that a--
    the storekeeper's wife used to cook for us
    when we used to give her.
    And she was probably glad to do it.
    And she would knock at the door and bring us in a meal
    from the food we got.
    Did she know you were Jews?
    Oh, I'll tell you a story, too.
    No, she did not know.
    She did not know.
    And in that, in that, where we lived--
    so in the evenings, we would go out and sit near,
    between the garage and this.
    And a lot of Germans used to come over.
    And they knew that we are Latvians
    and that we know the Russians.
    They wanted favors.
    We should-- for example, there was a lady,
    the Russians took away her sewing machine.
    We should go with her to reclaim her sewing machine.
    And how the Russians will be and oh, they were so afraid.
    And as soon as the Russians came in in the store,
    he would run and bring us-- we should talk to the Russian,
    because they were afraid the Russians would take something
    for nothing or this.
    Then he's afraid-- in fact, he told us,
    that man, that he was an SS man, SS, he said.
    But he said everybody had to be SS--
    means a Hitler.
    And the Russians were trying to find out who worked for that.
    And always they want--
    and we didn't know that we are Jews-- they didn't know that.
    We lived there.
    And we had, in fact, we had pretty good a rest place,
    and they had--
    What was his name?
    I don't know.
    Even when I lived there, I didn't know,
    or maybe I did know.
    And such things I don't keep in mind.
    Only I knew the Germans, we worked together,
    and in Riga, I know many names.
    So and then a bath we could take there.
    There wasn't hot water.
    Again, you had to heat up water, put in,
    and it was a wooden tub.
    And we lived there until--
    oh yeah, we lived there for quite a couple of months,
    probably.
    And here what, meanwhile, happened--
    that all the foreigners could repatriate.
    Italians went to Italy, Hungarians
    to Hungary, Romanians and Czechoslovakians,
    everybody were.
    And we thought-- we told the Russians, instead
    of being Latvians, we told them we are
    from Palestine, Palestinians.
    And you know who gave us-- this gave us, a little,
    a young soldier from the Crimea, a Russian soldier--
    young, you would think that's assimilated--
    but he said, don't tell them you are a Latvian,
    tell you are Palestinians.
    We ourselves couldn't say it.
    And we saw it, and it went.
    So they used to gather all the foreigners in groups of 120
    and put them on a train, whatever communications
    they could, and send them to.
    With three Palestinians, they didn't even know.
    A lot of Russian soldiers, if you say we are from Palestine,
    he would say, where is it?
    In fact, one time, two soldiers said, where is it.
    They said-- [RUSSIAN],, don't you know we were fighting there.
    The Russians weren't fighting in Palestine,
    but [LAUGHS] you know.
    So anyhow, then it came that the whole town
    emptied of foreigners.
    And the Yugoslavs left, too.
    And the Russians moved us to another place,
    and before moving, you know.
    And in fact, we had to gather in a certain place, so one
    of the German women which, she looked very sympathetic, too.
    She was afraid of the Russians, but of Hitler--
    some places-- still Hitler.
    So when we took--
    lived there, we told her we are Jews.
    And here what happened--
    Kovnat was a tall, slender and blonde.
    And I was-- I don't know if I look specifically Jewish
    or not.
    But to have another one, he was shorter than I am,
    and he had curly hair.
    And he looked, we called him the Negus.
    You know, the Negus was the Ethiopian King.
    He looked like him.
    You remember the King of Ethiopia?
    I remember Haile Selassie.
    Haile Selassie, how he looked.
    He looked like that, curly hair.
    So he said, he said--
    she said to me, we didn't know, but she said,
    of that little one, he said, we thought maybe he is Jewish.
    [LAUGHS]
    So but we treated him good.
    And, and we told her, you see what hatred
    and what Hitler did, that he thought
    the Jews are devils or the worst of everybody,
    because we got a good name on account
    we used to give the food to the lady,
    and food was scarce when the Russians came in.
    Did you tell the Russians that the fellow was an SS man?
    No, no, no, no.
    But he told us, he said, I belong to the party,
    but he said, I'll go and talk to what we can and then--
    and we were sitting there in the place,
    and we could see that he is not an active--
    he wasn't a Jew killer or this.
    And if you, as a sympathizer to Hitler--
    they were, all of them.
    You know what happened once in Russia--
    in Germany, and I don't remember at what time, but anyhow,
    we were already close to leave Germany.
    And we were in the country.
    And an old German was sitting near the river,
    and I think he was a shepherd and had there
    and was taking care of a herd of cattle.
    You see, in Europe, isn't like an America
    there is plenty of land, and you have a fenced-in,
    and the cattle graze by themselves.
    There you need a shepherd, because there
    is no fenced-in from one farm to the other,
    or the cattle can go in the corn or other.
    So there is a shepherd.
    And we talked to him.
    And he was a shepherd, because he was old.
    And he didn't know that we are Jewish, too.
    And the Russian, it was in the Russian zone.
    And he said, and we're talking.
    And we tell him, did you see how destroyed,
    and why did Hitler start the war,
    and why did the other Germans--
    how did all the Germans follow Hitler?
    You know what the guy told me-- he didn't know we are Jews,
    it didn't come to his mind-- he said,
    there wouldn't be any war if not for the Jews, he told me.
    They were so-- that Hitler, he was a devil.
    But he knew-- and I know this in all the dictators--
    he knew how to lead the people to--
    and to believe all what he says.
    That is-- Nasser was like that.
    Nasser was-- were for talking about the Jews
    or about Americans or this or what
    is Khomeini, now, or a few of those fanatics.
    They know how to lead the people in believing all the bad.
    Another thing what they do is you seed with hatred.
    You can feed the masses until they accept it better,
    you know, willingly, more than with love, with hatred.
    And that was all the dictators.
    So you were the three Palestinians getting back
    to the--
    Yeah.
    --in this little town, and the Yugoslavs left?
    Right.
    And where did you do the--
    And here then the Russians took us over in another camp.
    What was the name of that?
    That was Furstenwalde.
    And it was like the camp was made from a--
    in a villa of a rich German family.
    There were real impressive buildings, brick buildings, 2,
    3 floors and a lot of buildings for their help--
    smaller buildings.
    It was on a nice hill.
    And we lived there with other people.
    And there were Yugoslavs and Polacks and some Italians.
    But they lived already, they had already a band.
    They were dancing and living it up.
    And then a Yugoslav man said--
    and we got acquainted, and we told him we are Jewish people.
    And he said, you know what I heard,
    that in Berlin, they have a Jewish center,
    like a Jewish Gemeinde, it's called.
    And Berlin was 60 miles from that place.
    And it was civilians couldn't use the railroad yet--
    only for soldiers, for the Russians.
    And the war was still on somewhere.
    It wasn't.
    So here what happened--
    oh, I remember.
    No, it was already after the liberation,
    because it was already--
    Berlin was already divided into four zones-- the Russian,
    French, English and American.
    So we decided that we have to see what is in Berlin.
    We cannot sit there.
    So I was the one, they sent me to go to Berlin.
    And I got in into the train.
    And the train was filled with Russians.
    But I told them I'm going to--
    I have to go to Berlin or somehow.
    We-- I got about 10 or 20 miles until they got me out of it.
    I talked to men, and then I had to walk.
    And I remember I was walking and walking.
    It was so hot already.
    It must have been May.
    And I remember my face was soaked.
    I was sweating.
    And when I came to Berlin, I remember my hair was bleached.
    I couldn't recognize when I saw my hair.
    I had not very dark hair, but I couldn't recognize,
    it was so bleached.
    And I remember, I was going by, and I saw a little, like,
    a puddle where kids were swimming there out of this.
    And I thought, oh, if I could go in--
    and maybe I should go in with the clothes.
    Since the sun shines anyhow, it'll dry up.
    And I was afraid.
    I would have done it, it was so hot.
    Finally, I came to Berlin, to that place.
    And I saw Berlin, you know, where a lot of buildings
    were destroyed.
    But what impressed me more, I never
    knew or saw the underground subways.
    And here were holes, and you could look in and see the rails
    underneath.
    And I came.
    The holes were where they were bombed out?
    Right, from bombs, yeah.
    And finally, towards evening, I came to that old synagogue
    where they had the Jewish Gemeinde.
    Gemeinde means the Jewish circle.
    And I'll show you--
    I think I have a document what they give me.
    I think let's, let's finish this with today.
    And I'll show you the paper what I got from.
    All right.
    OK.
    So we were in a camp, Furstenwalde,
    the three boys of us.
    And it was a Russian camp.
    There were Polish refugees and Italians.
    And what the Russians did--
    and meanwhile, the war was over--
    so the Russians used to make groups of 120 people and put
    them on a train--
    it was in Europe--
    and sent them by train--
    Hungarians to Hungary, Polacks to Poland,
    and Romanians to Romania.
    But we were three boys, and we existed as Palestinians.
    And they used to tell us, well, when we'll get 120 of you,
    we'll send you, too.
    And we were just sitting or sitting.
    And we see it was like a camp where they send home everybody.
    And everybody is going, and new are coming.
    And they make groups and send them home.
    And nothing, no results with us.
    So it happened to be there Yugoslavs, too.
    And we talked to them.
    And he said that he was in Berlin,
    but there is, in Berlin, there is a Jewish Gemeinde.
    Gemeinde means a Jewish community.
    And they have-- they are doing something
    for the Jewish people.
    So we decided that we have to investigate.
    So it was decided that I would go there.
    And the two will stay, because we can't go out of the camp,
    and then we will be nowhere.
    You see, we couldn't be on our own.
    We didn't have any money.
    We didn't have nothing.
    And it was after the war, and there were no order that--
    nothing.
    So that I'll go.
    So how did we go?
    We were getting food, too.
    And our food was the main thing.
    You know, it was after the war, but we, for us, food
    was scarce in Germany, and especially for us.
    And we lived from that-- what the Russians gave to us.
    And in that camp, the Yugoslavian--
    Yugoslavs were managing for the Russians that camp.
    So while sitting there we had enough food.
    But as soon as we get away from the camp, we are out--
    nothing, no papers, no nothing.
    So it was decided that these two boys will stay there,
    and I will go.
    There was a train from that place.
    And I went on the train, but it was only for military.
    And I went to the next station.
    They got me off of the train, so I had to walk.
    But as I said, it was 60 miles--
    I don't know.
    I walked.
    I think I slept on the station, and the next day
    in the morning, I start to walk.
    And I walked the whole day.
    And it was July.
    And the sun was heating, and I was hot.
    And I couldn't go in in a place.
    It was on the highway, first off.
    Even in a house I couldn't go in.
    Even I would look for a restaurant.
    I didn't have any money.
    Money, we didn't know what it is.
    So I was walking, and I had a bag with a bread.
    And I remember I passed by a pool, like a mud hole,
    and kids were swimming.
    And I thought, oh, if I wouldn't be afraid,
    I would go in with my clothes and then it will dry.
    I was so hot and sweaty.
    And when I arrived--
    at the end towards evening, I arrived in Berlin.
    And after asking people where that what I am looking for,
    the Jewish Gemeinde, finally I found it.
    And it was towards evening.
    I remember when I saw that--
    myself in a mirror, I couldn't recognize myself.
    My brows, my hair was blond.
    Before it was a brownish color, but it
    was like bleached from the sun without a hat.
    And that Jewish Gemeinde was in an old synagogue.
    And towards the evening would came--
    the janitor was a German, a husband
    and wife, two elderly people.
    And they lived there.
    The synagogue had a little house for the janitor.
    And we told them--
    and I told him I'm a Palestinian,
    and I'm going to Palestine.
    Listen what she said.
    She said, we are Germans, but when there was the synagogue,
    we had a daughter.
    And one of the members, a Jewish fellow
    fell in love with our daughter, and they
    are in Palestine in Acharya.
    She said, I'm going to give you a letter along.
    She thought we are going.
    It wasn't so simple.
    But so and the next day-- so we stayed over.
    In the synagogue I stayed over in the synagogue.
    And the next morning, the man who managed that came.
    And he said, what--
    we don't have a camp that you can come here and stay.
    He said, we give only help, advice to German Jews.
    So but I said, how can I get back home?
    So he said, wait, we'll give you a sign,
    and maybe that will help you.
    And he gave me this.
    And when he asked me the name where I was born,
    and I tell him in Riga, Latvia.
    He said, oh, we have only the power
    to take care of German Jews.
    So he said, well, we'll put you in that you
    are born in Hanover.
    That's why.
    And I was going back.
    He gave me some additional bread and food.
    I thought I would walk home.
    And I thought to go back.
    Here what happened-- the Russians--
    Berlin was already divided in four zones--
    the English and this.
    But around the city, you see, were the Russians.
    And the Russians had roadblocks out of the city.
    And here I go out of the city about three or four or five
    miles.
    And you have to walk roads-- are Russian,
    and the Russian, there were a couple of them standing on.
    He said, where are you going, who are you?
    So I took out the this.
    I don't know-- did he know German?
    He reads, and he reads.
    And he said, where are you going?
    I said, I'm going to Furstenwalde.
    And I tell him for-- in a lager.
    So he push me away on the side.
    And I thought, my God, here I am arrested by the Russians.
    And here what happened-- and meanwhile, the Russian,
    the communication or on the roads
    were only Russian trucks, Russian carts.
    It was after the war, which they load
    the trucks on empty trucks.
    And these guard at the roadblock block examined every truck.
    He wanted signs, where they're going.
    And evidently, he found a truck who is going to our place.
    When he got the truck, he calls me in
    and tells me to go get on the truck.
    And they brought me there back.
    And I told the guys what the reason--
    What were their names, Irving?
    Kovnat one was, Kovnat.
    And the other was Baron.
    Were they both from Riga?
    No, Baron was from Riga, and Kovnat was from Dankeri.
    Dankeri was a little town.
    In Latvia?
    In Latvia, yeah, famous little town.
    So we came, so we came back.
    And we thought, what are we going to do, and what are--
    then we heard that, in the English zone,
    in Berlin is something, they do something.
    And sure enough, we walk--
    oh yeah-- no.
    We went somewhere again, or we heard
    that the English people, the English army and the English
    were bringing over refugees who don't want
    to return to their country, Eastern Europeans,
    especially Polacks like us.
    So they get them out of the Russian zone,
    and they take them over to there, so.
    And we want our-- what our-- sure enough, they put us
    on tractor trailers, like.
    And that's the first time I saw that trailer.
    You go in, it's like a room, the American tractor trailers.
    In Europe, they didn't have.
    And they put us in, put on with a lot of refugees
    and was taking us.
    I didn't know where, when, but to move at least.
    So again, and the Russians were around.
    And the Russians kept that trailer, too.
    They kept that.
    And evidently, the papers weren't right,
    and they want to look in-- what is in the trailers.
    And they-- and the Allies have with them-- it's none
    of their business, evidently.
    And they wouldn't let look in into the trailers.
    And the cop kept us for 6, 8 hours.
    And we were very, very scared--
    what's going to happen?
    But finally, they let it go.
    And we were brought in the English zone.
    And again, they put us in in a camp, the English,
    again, with foreigners.
    How did you get out of the Russian camp onto that trailer?
    What did they do, just ask for people?
    Yeah, yes.
    Somehow, it was facilitated.
    And we find out that they take out people.
    And the Cold War was on.
    And the English-- evidently, people
    they were not supposed to take out, but they did not let them
    inspect what they have in the trailers.
    And it was they had a big quarrel.
    Evidently, they had to go to the higher commandant.
    And finally, we were free, and we went out.
    And they put us in a camp.
    And it started almost the same story,
    with all the other nationalities go home,
    and we-- as Palestinians, they don't know what to do with us.
    So finally, we knew that we are not far from Bergen-Belsen.
    So and in Bergen-Belsen, we're neutrals.
    From the English people, from the English soldiers
    who used to come, we find out that there is Jews left.
    And there we decided already that we are moving just away.
    So one day, we got up.
    And we start walking and to, towards Bergen-Belsen.
    In Bergen-Belsen, there was quite
    a number of Jewish people there, the refugees.
    And some already were familiar with the area.
    They were going and coming.
    And there were--
    Hanover wasn't far from that and another little town, Celle.
    And they were going to town there.
    And some started even trading and doing business.
    But we were ignorant in those.
    And so, oh yeah, on the road, I remember big trucks would go,
    some empty tractor trailers with flatbed and a lot of refugees.
    And there were bands.
    When the truck would slow down, they
    would jump on it, when have a ride, take a ride.
    So we saw the other do it, we got on a truck,
    too, on a truck.
    There were sharp bends on the road.
    And we-- and I remember--
    so some, used to be they would let them off or this.
    We didn't know.
    We got on a truck, and when it came toward we wanted
    to get out, we were afraid.
    We were told that we are now about 10 miles
    from Bergen-Belsen.
    We were arriving right, and then we decided we have to go down.
    And that truck wouldn't stop.
    And we begged him, and he just to start faster.
    And I remember we had bags with food, with or whatever.
    We threw it down, and we jumped then.
    And I realize now-- you know, we were younger--
    it was so dangerous to jump off of a running truck.
    When we jumped off, nothing happened.
    So on the way we walked, again.
    And on the way, we met a Hungarian girl.
    And we talked to her.
    And we tell her the story.
    And she said, oh, in Bergen-Belsen,
    you'll be all right.
    We tell her all what--
    she said, we are in the right place.
    And she said, you come with me, and I'll
    show you where to register, there is an office.
    And so finally, we came.
    And we went in, and we-- there was an office.
    In the office were managing two rabbis from England.
    One was Wilansky, and one was Baumgartner.
    They were army chaplains.
    They were wearing the English uniforms, young rabbis.
    And we came in, and we tell them.
    They register, but shows us the place.
    So here what happened--
    in Bergen-Belsen was the camp for the Jewish camp.
    And there was a lot of Germans who were living in
    a camp, oh, a block away.
    And the Germans had brick buildings,
    nice 2-story buildings.
    Over on this was the Jewish camp were barracks from the war.
    And it was, when we came, it was burned down, everything.
    And there were mass graves.
    And they showed us that here was buried the ashes and these.
    And but it was try to level out.
    And we lived there.
    And so from there, from there at that time, the Jewish Agency,
    the Israeli wanted--
    and the American government, in fact, Truman made the English--
    England should let in 100,000 Jews to Israel
    from the, left over from the Holocaust, left over.
    But England, at that time, the Secretary
    of State Bevin in England resisted.
    And the English Government resisted,
    because they didn't want to get in trouble with the Arabs.
    And Ben-Gurion came there once and spoke.
    And in Bergen-Belsen there were, meanwhile, a lot of other Jews
    come together, like myself.
    And we had demonstrations.
    And Bergen-Belsen was under the English,
    in the English part of Germany.
    And I remember when Gurion came--
    and this I will always remember when he said to us,
    he said the world knows what Hitler did to the Jews.
    That he said like that--
    that Hitler didn't have to kill the Jews like he did, he said.
    If the Nurembergs laws, what they gave out,
    would be enough to kill all the Jews.
    He said, there was an Aryan should not
    have any contact with the Jewish people.
    And he said the Aryan--
    a German or whatever it is-- cannot trade with the Jewish
    people by himself, and they can't do any service
    for the Jewish people, and the Jewish people can't do any
    service for the Aryans.
    He said, that would be enough that Jews couldn't exist,
    But he said, in Israel, is a difference.
    So he said, all of Europe Jews would
    perish if the Aryans would actually obey Hitler's laws.
    That he said, in Israel, if they gave out such a law,
    he said, it wouldn't hurt the Jews,
    because he said, we produce our own food,
    we have our own manufacturing business.
    And he said, we can live for a very, very long time,
    because we don't need the others,
    we can deal with ourselves on own.
    [COUGH] But anyhow, that was the speech.
    And it was, in Israel and in the whole America
    were fighting that they should--
    Palestine should absorb those refugees.
    But they, in England, couldn't give in.
    Finally, under the pressure from the Allies,
    England decided to send a commission
    to inquire to the Jews if they want to go to Israel.
    Because in England, said not--
    there aren't so many who wants to go to Israel,
    mostly want to go to their own country.
    And this is true, too.
    There were a big amount of Hungarian Jews.
    And the young kids who were already assimilated--
    some Hungarian Jews were speaking Yiddish, you know.
    But there were already a higher class,
    especially from Budapest.
    So they wanted, they were begging to go back to Hungary.
    And the same was with Romanian, and the same
    was with all, a lot of different.
    Some wanted to go to Israel, and some wanted to go home.
    So there was that Rabbi Wilansky.
    He was the chaplain.
    And he was a Zionist and a really fine Jewish man.
    And he spoke Yiddish.
    So he came, and he said to the--
    and we had there a big movie house.
    He used to call together a big hall.
    And he spoke.
    He said, a commission is coming in about a week.
    And he said, no matter who-- whoever wants to go home,
    we'll send home to Hungary or to Poland.
    And but at least from the commission
    come and enquire, send all who want to go to Israel.
    And here what happened--
    on the next Saturday the Hungarian kids, especially
    girls, caught the rabbi.
    They thought that he messed up the chance of going back
    to Hungary.
    And they dropped him on the floor
    and took off his coat or something.
    And some say even they beat him up, I don't know.
    Anyhow, the rabbi called, again, a meeting.
    And he said, among other things, he said, I'll consider--
    I need the coat, my coat, I need-- and I'll
    consider whoever returns it to me, that the coat,
    you don't like me.
    He said, I couldn't say, of Jews,
    that they took it from me or something.
    And so that happened Yeah, so meanwhile,
    the England with the commission came and with their inquiries.
    But still they hold tight that they
    wouldn't allow any Jews to emigrate to Palestine,
    because they had, before they had already a white paper
    from a previous government to stop immigration
    on account of the Arabs.
    And at that time it started the illegal immigration.
    And how-- what did consist of?
    There were Israeli, Israeli soldiers,
    which were in the army in the English army, the volunteers.
    And they would come in secret and make contact
    with the Jewish young boys.
    They would take them to Italy, and in Italy or to any harbor
    and put them on boats.
    And they would go to Israel and get them to Marseilles
    to southern France.
    And there was a secret organization.
    That's when the exodus started.
    And but there were other many boats.
    And I myself registered, too, with the Israelis.
    However, I had here a lot of relatives in America.
    And but I didn't know their addresses,
    because I was a youngster at that time.
    And my mother and my sister used to correspond
    with the other side.
    Was-- so but I remember the Simon Lebow, Bellaire Ohio.
    So I wrote a few letters, and they didn't count.
    I didn't know the exact address.
    I didn't realize, of course, if you
    send a letter in normal times to Simon Lebow, Bellaire, Ohio,
    he would get it without any--
    I didn't know then--
    numbers or box number.
    But he's known in Bellaire, he would get a letter.
    But in those days, I didn't get an answer for about two,
    three months.
    Irving, what year was this, are we--
    That was '45, '46.
    And you mentioned earlier a Hungarian girlfriend?
    Yeah, that-- I'll come back to it.
    All right.
    Good.
    So and I didn't get any answers.
    It passed by three month or four month, and I--
    nothing.
    So one time-- so I gave up.
    I thought maybe they died, maybe they moved.
    And in Europe, if you moved and you
    didn't make good arrangements, it is like you disappeared.
    Maybe in America, too, if you don't leave a forwarding
    address, you go away somewhere.
    So I gave up, and I settled myself to go to Israel.
    And here what happened--
    and yeah, I was to go to Israel.
    And I already contacted the people,
    and I would go on illegal, illegally,
    like, like everybody was doing.
    And here what happened--
    if you remember, when I said when we,
    we're on the way to Bergen-Belsen, a girl,
    we met a girl.
    And we talked to her.
    And she said, you come, and you'll be safe and everything.
    And a really-- she did for us, and we got acquainted.
    What was her name?
    Her name was Eleanor Weiss from [PLACE NAME]..
    And we got acquainted.
    And in such a case, you get acquaintance, and you get help,
    you feel it ties you together.
    And she told us later on about her,
    how she was brought to the camp.
    She was really in that camp all the time.
    What camp was that?
    Bergen-Belsen.
    I see.
    Yeah, she was brought from Germany in Bergen-Belsen.
    And she was taking care, she said.
    She is called the mother of very young girls--
    13, 14-years-old girls from her neighborhood,
    about six, eight girls.
    And she said, in the camp she was with them.
    And now, she lives in the barracks with them.
    And we got acquainted with her.
    And I used to come in in the barracks.
    And you know, young people-- and she was quite religious.
    And at that time, I wasn't religious at all,
    because we grew up in Riga.
    And in Riga was under the influence from Russia.
    And not only that, in the influence from our growing up,
    when I grew up, it was, the Jewish question was so imminent
    that we were taught in school that learning Torah,
    it's called squeezing the bench, sitting and doing, it is not--
    it is just learning is nothing, doing is the main thing.
    And that's why we have our problem.
    We are too much, we have too much intelligence,
    but we are not used to work.
    And that, in fact, the Goyim, used
    to accuse us that the Jews don't work, can't work,
    don't want to work.
    They just want to trade or the professionals.
    That was their accusation.
    And somehow, we were so sensitive
    that the Jewish people, we thought really they were right.
    And when I was growing up, it was
    that we have to learn to work on the Zionism were blooming.
    But in Israel, we'll go, and we'll work the land,
    and we'll work this.
    So we were inclined to accept that the Torah learning,
    that's not good, or too much intelligence is not good--
    work, deeds are--
    on doing things.
    So that's why I said I wasn't religious.
    Now, shtetl, in spite, there was three shuls we had.
    And I happened to live in shul across from the street
    and spend my days in school, in shul,
    because we didn't have playgrounds
    or, like you have here, or a swimming pool.
    It was around shul where we got together.
    And that girl, she was very smart and very intelligent.
    And somehow we took a liking of each other, unnoticed.
    And I told her that about America--
    I have so many relatives-- brothers and uncles and things.
    And she said, if you find about them, will you take me,
    I would go with you.
    I said, yes.
    So anyhow, but then nothing came out of that.
    So one time I was at her place with--
    in the barrack.
    And one of her girls, the young girls she takes care of,
    13 or 14-years-old girl, writes.
    I said, what is she doing there?
    She was writing.
    She said, oh, she writes a letter
    to her father in New York, in New York.
    So I said, oh, maybe I'll put on a little note in her letter.
    She said, go and ask her.
    So I asked the girl, can I put in a little note
    about my relatives.
    She said, why not?
    Oh yeah, and I asked her, the--
    she was called the mama, the--
    my girl, the Eleanor Weiss.
    She said, yeah, put in a--
    So I write a little note like that
    that I have relatives in America, Simon Lebow and Joe
    Lebow and in California somewhere.
    Maybe he can find out and get, connect me with him,
    in English.
    And I put it in, and I forgot about it in a couple of weeks
    Oh yeah, so one day when I come to the girls,
    she said, did you hear, they called your name?
    And I were-- how it was distributed,
    the mail in Bergen-Belsen, the camp,
    the English had a truck with a loudspeaker.
    And he would go along and call the mail.
    And then the people would run out.
    He would go slow, you know, and deliver the mail.
    And I don't know where I was, I didn't hear.
    She said, it seemed to me, for sure,
    that they called your name.
    So oh yeah, and the letters the English did not deliver they
    left with their office, with the chaplains, you see.
    The camp was managed by the English government,
    by the English army.
    And the chaplains were part of their army.
    Army chaplains, they were.
    So I went there.
    I went there in the office, and I go in
    and Rabbi Baumgartner was there.
    And I went.
    There was a line of people-- they always have something
    there--
    letters or other business complaints--
    or demand something.
    So I have a look on my--
    I was 10 closer, about 3, 4.
    And I look up there.
    I see what they-- it-- there is a letter for me.
    And I recognize from whom it is, you know.
    And there was already a letter and an affidavit
    for me to come to America.
    And here what happened--
    this Hungarian girl father was in New York.
    They lived in Hungary, but he was in New York.
    He was from the ultra Orthodox people,
    and he was a collector for a yeshiva, collecting money.
    Now, we have the United Jewish Appeal, but in those days,
    each yeshiva had their man to send out.
    And he was going from door to door, collecting money.
    And the money they use to send to Europe to the yeshiva.
    And he was here.
    And it so happened that this man-- he
    used to come to Bellaire, too.
    And I had an aunt in Bellaire.
    And she was kosher, so he used to eat there.
    And Uncle Simon was a contributor, so he knew him.
    What was his name?
    I, I forget it.
    Oh, Schecter or Schuster.
    I'll remember.
    In fact, before I was still in-- yeah, remember.
    Were there any yeshivas left in Europe to be collecting for?
    Well, he was caught in the war, and I
    don't think he could go back.
    Oh, he was there the entire war in New York?
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    Now, Schuster, Schecter.
    Anyhow, so he called up, right away.
    And he said, here, I have a note that Irving Lebow, your--
    is alive and in Bergen-Belsen.
    Now--
    Simon was your uncle?
    My uncle, right.
    So I got-- and my brother was here then already in Bellaire.
    So he went to New York, got me papers and everything.
    Now--
    What was your brother's name, Irving?
    Joe, Joseph.
    So here what happened--
    my brother thought that if there is anybody alive,
    I have chances, because I--
    he knew who I was.
    I have a slow temper, and I'm pretty in good health,
    and I have a trade.
    So he thought if anybody would be alive, I would.
    But here, month went by, and they didn't hear,
    so he thought maybe I perished.
    Then I had a sister in Riga.
    And here what happened-- we got--
    Was she the one put on the train?
    Yeah, yeah.
    OK.
    She was on the train.
    And here again, after the war--
    and she remained alive.
    You know that story.
    No, the last time you mentioned her, she was put on a train
    and being sent to Russia.
    Right.
    We send her.
    We put her on a train, my brother and me.
    Right.
    And we thought she should go to our little town
    or a ghetto town, but the town--
    But the train didn't stop?
    But the train didn't stop, and they went to Russia.
    And during the war, America and Russia were friends.
    She, my sister got in touch with these brothers in America.
    Simon?
    Simon and Joe.
    And they were corresponding.
    At the end of the war, my sister, from Russia--
    they were sent deep in Russia near Siberia--
    she came back to Riga and expected--
    and some survivors came back to Riga.
    And she asks some, and they said that I was in ghetto in Riga,
    they told her.
    And she didn't meet anybody who would,
    who could tell that I was in Germany or alive.
    They didn't know, because a lot you didn't
    know from each other much.
    Was there still a ghetto in Riga then?
    No, no, no, no.
    But survivors arrived from Germany.
    You know, it was after the war already.
    And she said, she went there to talk to them.
    Not only that, there were lists of survivors made and brought
    to all places, to a lot of places.
    But still it wasn't with a system.
    And she wrote to my brother here that it's such a pity
    that, evidently, I perished.
    And my brother later told me, he wrote to her,
    no, we shouldn't lose hopes yet.
    And in that letter when I got in Bergen-Belsen
    was that you evidently know that our sister is
    alive with her family.
    And this was to me such a surprise,
    because when we send her, we thought
    she land in [PLACE NAME],, that in [PLACE NAME]
    they brought the rabbi, took the whole community to the shul
    and burned alive there about three shuls.
    Whatever they could pack in the shuls, they put it on fire
    and burned.
    And then the rest were taken out to the woods and shot.
    So in the beginning, I did not believe that they will do it,
    but we heard that, in Riga, what they did in the provinces.
    And they, in Riga, they didn't do it yet like that.
    They were shooting at night 4 or 5 people, 10 to intimidate or--
    we thought.
    But so for a while I thought, well, we
    sent them to the, in the, to the mouth of the lion.
    When the things got worse--
    and it bothered me so much.
    But on the other hand, I thought, who should know?
    Nobody could know.
    When things were got worse, and they were already
    starting mass execution and annihilation, I thought, well--
    and when I wanted to commit suicide,
    it was a time I thought, well, maybe they had it better.
    If it came, why did they have to suffer so much?
    It's over with them.
    And so I got the papers.
    Where was she living at the time?
    At the time she was already returned from Siberia to Riga.
    And she was living in Riga?
    Near Riga, yeah.
    With her child?
    Yeah, with-- she had two children.
    Two children?
    And a husband.
    And the husband was in the Front.
    He was wounded but all survived.
    Her husband was not on the train with her at the time?
    Yes.
    Oh they--
    Yes.
    --put him on the train?
    Yeah, on the train, too.
    And then he was mobilized in the army and did that.
    Yeah.
    So here what happened--
    so I got the affidavit.
    And they told me, in the office, what I have to do.
    And they said it'll take time, because the transportation
    alone--
    before I get the visa, transportation alone
    is not for civilians.
    There isn't such a thing, because the American army
    was returning soldiers.
    And it was millions of people.
    And all the boats and planes were basically with soldiers,
    and they had the priority.
    The Americans had the priority in those days.
    And here, when I got the affidavit, I come to my girl.
    And I showed her, and she said to me,
    you know what, she got a letter, too.
    From Hungary, she got.
    And she told me that she had a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    You know what a [NON-ENGLISH] is?
    A boyfriend with whom she planned to be married.
    And she thought, too, that he was for sure, he perished.
    And she said she got the news that he was alive.
    And she said to me, you wouldn't expect
    me to leave her boyfriend and her youth friend and this.
    And she said she's going back to Hungary.
    And that was-- and I said, yes, I understand.
    And I start the work to get to America.
    So to get to America, there in Germany were no English Consul.
    I had to get a visa that they send me.
    From the camp, they send me to France, again, by car.
    Everything went by my car or a bus.
    They had, evidently, more like I am on-- with them
    they got a small bus, like a school bus they had.
    And they took us from Bergen-Belsen first to Belgium.
    We were driving, and they brought us to France.
    In France, they had in, an old grade school, they
    had a camp for refugees, like whoever had papers
    and that want to go home.
    They put me there.
    And I had to go to the English--
    to the American Consul.
    And I came, and I showed him I have an affidavit.
    And they said they cannot give me a visa till I have
    transportation.
    I used to go to transportation, to companies.
    They said they can't book me until I have a visa.
    And I was going from one place to the other.
    And in each place when you came, you had to stay on line.
    I would come out in the morning and be there in the evening,
    just to say me, no, it's--
    have to wait and wait.
    I was waiting.
    And yeah, I was waiting there for a whole year.
    And meanwhile, I lived in a camp.
    And they fed us.
    But I was a watchmaker, and I got there work.
    I got acquainted little by little.
    I used to get a watch to repair.
    And later finally, I got work, and I was working and living
    there for a whole year.
    And I would maybe have stayed there much longer.
    And here what happened--
    my, again, Uncle Simon wrote the letter,
    and he, evidently, some lawyer must've
    put it up that we are a big family here and all
    from the rest of the family perished in Europe,
    and only one nephew has remained alive.
    And it is something-- a pity or something that I can come here.
    He send my financial statement-- you know,
    how much he pay taxes and his assets.
    And one time, I came, and the Consul called me in,
    and he opened a folder and said, who is Simon Lebow.
    I said, he is my uncle, he's my father's brother.
    Oh yeah, and I heard a young fellow--
    I didn't know what English, a word English nor French.
    There in the consulate, I--
    English or French you could make yourself understood.
    So they gave me along a young fellow, a Frenchman.
    And he knew a little English--
    a little Yiddish.
    He was from Jewish parents.
    So I used to talk, and he would explain to them.
    And he was-- I could hear, according to this.
    And he-- the statement, he said, he's
    a wealthy man or something like that.
    And that helped.
    And he said, come next day.
    He gave me an appointment.
    And my gosh, I got the visa.
    I-- it was after a year, I got the visa.
    When I got the visa I went to a airlines.
    I think it was Air France or American, I don't remember.
    Somewhere I think in my citizen's papers,
    they found out how I came to America, the transportation.
    I have citizen papers, that is when I come on.
    And I had enough money saved up from my watch repair,
    and I bought a ticket.
    And I came here.
    And my brother knew I was--
    that I'm about to come, but I didn't know how
    to wire or this.
    You know, I was from a small town
    and without a language in a strange country.
    And I come, And on the plane, they took--
    they registered already.
    And I came on a permanent visa that, when
    I got off of the plane, I said, what do I do now?
    He said, you are an American, you can go wherever you want.
    [LAUGHS]
    Oh yeah, in France, I was started
    to take English and French in night school
    at the Berlitz School.
    And for refugees.
    It was free.
    So I took English, and I learned pretty,
    I would say, pretty fast.
    At the end of the year I could make myself understood.
    Irving, what happened to the other two fellows that you--
    Oh, we-- see, after I got the affidavit, we parted.
    And I knew Baron went to Israel.
    And I don't know what happened to Kovnak had,
    in Ireland, had some relatives.
    And he said he would go to Ireland.
    So I don't know if he got in touch
    with his relatives or this.
    When you got off the plane, and they told you
    you could go anywhere--
    Yeah, so I said, I don't know, I don't--
    Was that different than what you had--
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    And it was different, but still I was in a strange land.
    I was in New York at that airport.
    Were you-- you were used to people telling you where
    to go--
    Right, right, right, right.
    And I was so scared.
    And evidently, that person who told me so how it was, I said,
    I don't know where to go or what.
    So he asked about relatives.
    So I told him I have in Bellaire, Ohio.
    What's his name-- he got him in a telephone book and called.
    And I was so surprised.
    So he said, here, there is my brother on the other end.
    He said, oh, you are here.
    He said, you know what, you stay there,
    and I'll take a train or a plane,
    and I'll come to pick you up, he said, at the airport.
    I said, tell me how I should get--
    why I don't-- how I'll somehow get myself.
    I'll take a cab or something.
    And he didn't want that.
    Then I said, if you'll tell me where to go, and I'll get it--
    on a train, or--
    He said go to the Pennsylvania Station and get a train,
    ask for a ticket to Wheeling, West Virginia.
    And somehow, I don't remember how I got it--
    by a cab or something.
    Oh, and this I remember.
    A cab or a porter got me to the station.
    And he brings me to the where I buy a ticket.
    I ask him where to buy a ticket.
    You know, it was so strange with so many people.
    And I didn't know.
    So he brought me, and he said you buy a ticket.
    And I buy.
    And I go, and I ask a ticket for Wheeling, West Virginia.
    And the man in the window-- and he stays with me.
    And he asks me, one or two.
    And I wasn't used to listening.
    When you don't know the language, you know.
    I said, yes.
    So he gives me two tickets.
    But that guy didn't sit at him-- gives me two tickets.
    I bought two tickets.
    And I had to wait about five or six hours or more
    on this station.
    And I was sitting around.
    And at the same time, I'm afraid.
    I see a train comes--
    I shouldn't miss my train.
    And I go I'm tell him, will you tell me
    when the train comes on there?
    And I look at the ticket.
    I see two identical tickets.
    And I-- why do I have two tickets?
    And I got-- and I had so much time.
    And I got two, and I went after three, four, five hours.
    And I said, do I need two tickets,
    or I need only one ticket?
    And that-- in the window, he got quite mad.
    He said, if you need one, why do you buy two or something?
    He-- I didn't understand.
    But anyhow, he gave me money back.
    And so and I remember I was asking, asking--
    each train which come, is this to Wheeling, West Virginia.
    And finally I-- it was the train.
    And I got on, and I came.
    And that train to Wheeling and over there,
    well, near the river.
    And I remember I came about 8 o'clock in the morning.
    And here is Wheeling--
    I see, saw the sign.
    And the conductor I asked he should tell me
    where Wheeling is.
    And I looked through the window, came with my brother.
    And he arrived.
    Well, with the girl, as I said, there is--
    we got acquainted.
    And we start to go out together.
    And I used to come to her place.
    And she was a real nice girl and a very, very, such a,
    you know, a real European girl, a nice and intelligent
    and this.
    And we thought we'll get married.
    We'll go to Israel together or America together.
    And here what happened--
    that she find in the same day or in a day
    apart that she find out that her old boyfriend is there
    and have family so much there.
    And she decided she will go to there.
    Irving, do you have any conclusions, advice,
    or any thoughts, having gone through this whole experience?
    Well, no.
    I think we'll need another meeting, I'll tell you.
    I have some other--
    maybe, what time is it, now?
    It's only 10 minutes till 11.
    Oh, oh, oh.
    So here's what I'll tell you.
    OK, I'll tell you another episode
    what happened in America.
    There is a lot of details.
    When I came to America, I was, again, scared,
    and also, I had a trade, you know.
    But still it's a strange world.
    And I saw hardships, but I settled.
    In fact, first I worked in Pittsburgh.
    And I got a job.
    I learned.
    I stayed with my brother for three, four weeks,
    and I learned here more English.
    And I learned, I got used to the-- to hearing it.
    And I went, and I was going from jewelry store to jewelry store
    and hunting for a job.
    And I told him I know also how to fix typewriters.
    And at the end of the day, somebody sent me over.
    And it was Penn and Highland Avenue.
    Penn and Highland of the corner, there was a stationery store.
    And he was fixing typewriter.
    And I got the job.
    And I got the job, and he was very happy with me.
    I was fixing typewriters.
    And that man in the corner of his store
    he rented out to a watch repairman, an old man.
    And after I was working there 3 or 4 month or maybe 5 month,
    he used to-- he told me that that watch repairman, that he
    is a Swiss from Switzerland.
    But he's an American, and he's getting older, retiring.
    And he wants to quit the business.
    And that man for whom I was working,
    he didn't know that I repaired watches, too.
    But when I heard that he's going out of business, so I tell him,
    I am, actually, I am a watch man more than a typewriter man,
    and I would like to take it over.
    And I said, will, for your typewriters,
    will take in a young boy, and I'll teach him how to do it.
    And I'll supervise, and you'll be
    sure your typewriters will be fixed
    and this, because watch repairing in those days
    was a good trade.
    And for typewriters I was making--
    he was paying me $35 a week, which, in those days,
    was wages.
    And he found me a place to live.
    And I remember it was an old bathroom.
    You know, you could see where the pipes are,
    and it was for a bed.
    And you could have the squeeze in yourself.
    And at the end was a little table.
    And I don't think it had a window even.
    And I lived there, and I would come home weekends here.
    But when I saw this, I thought here it's I have a chance.
    Working $35 was enough for me to live.
    In fact, I used to come here by bus,
    and I still saved money from it.
    Where was the store located?
    On Penn and Highland Avenue.
    In what city?
    In Pittsburgh.
    That's the city.
    Highland, yeah.
    So and here I--
    am when he said to me, that man, he said,
    I think it can be worked out.
    And I thought, my gosh, I knew from watches, to clean out
    or to fix, they used to charge at those,
    in those days, $4, $5, $6 a watch.
    And that would be I can make a living.
    And I can-- a nice living, I can plan even
    to get married if I have this.
    And I thought that's my opportunity.
    And here what happened--
    I had-- and I was very overwhelmed with hopes,
    high hopes, because I couldn't wish any better--
    to have this, to repair watches.
    And I planned even then I would bring in some bands to sell
    and this and that.
    And I thought that will make it.
    On the other hand, I had, in Los Angeles, four uncles,
    brothers of my--
    one two, three, four, four uncles--
    brothers of my father.
    And I have never seen them.
    What are their names?
    Lebow, Harry Lebow, Ralph Lebow, Sam Lebow, and David Lebow.
    And after surviving, people are very sensitive about relatives.
    You know, I have lost there a lot of family
    in the old country and here--
    and very sensitive.
    And I wanted to meet my uncles.
    So and here I think, if I take this over,
    you have to tend the job here, you
    have to tend the job with the typewriters.
    So I come to my boss.
    He was an Englishman from England.
    And I remember he would try to talk the way I talk.
    You know, he thought I'll understand better.
    He would try to talk to me in a different English.
    But anyhow, I was learning English,
    because necessity is the best master, because I needed it.
    And so I come, and I tell him, listen,
    I have relatives, uncles, in Los Angeles.
    And before I settle down and this,
    I want to take off about a week to meet--
    and if I can do it.
    He said, oh, sure, but he points, like that,
    but be sure to come back, he said.
    Be sure to come here.
    So I-- and I had--
    I think I had $200 on those days saved up from $35 a week.
    And I got to take a plane.
    Yeah.
    And I go to Los Angeles.
    And it was wintertime, you know.
    It was, I remember, the snow and slush
    and the snow around Pittsburgh in those days with that,
    from the mills.
    And a lot of homes were heated by coal, coal furnaces.
    Of course, it was black.
    Even it was blacker and dirtier like in my shtetl because there
    the snow was white and slushy.
    You get, you know, and I came to Los Angeles.
    And it was around 11 o'clock.
    And one of my uncles came to me.
    When I came down the steps, I come
    in the airport, and the high ceilings and everything white,
    with tiles around the walls, and the floors are white tiles.
    And I go out, and the sun-- the sun is shining,
    and the weather is exactly--
    here it was cold, and here is was exactly
    not too hot, not too cold.
    And I see the people are dressed up entirely, different than we.
    We, wintertime here, with the coats and the--
    oh, I thought, my gosh, it looked to me so like paradise.
    And my uncle met me.
    And he was 53 years old, a bachelor--
    one of them.
    And he said, here, I'll take you over--
    he has an apartment--
    I'll take you over to Uncle Ralph.
    He has a big house, and you will stay with him.
    And he takes me over--
    very nice.
    And they were very, very friendly, and very touched by--
    and I was, at that time, young.
    And already I was dressed up nice.
    So the first day, we had dinner together, these two brothers.
    And the older brother had a family, with his children.
    And as the day went by, they showed me a room
    where to sleep.
    And the next morning, this bachelor uncle came again,
    and he said, well, you want to go?
    And this uncle, with the other uncle where I stayed,
    were partners in business, in pipe business, the same.
    So he said, you want to go--
    The same business your brother, Valera, was in.
    Right.
    Right.
    And he says, you want to-- do you want me to drop you off
    at the business?
    The house were empty there.
    The kids left.
    Or do you want to go with me?
    I have to go downtown.
    I have to stop at the bank for about half an hour,
    and then we'll-- you know, do you want to be with me?
    I said, I'll be with you.
    So he went, and he brought me to downtown Los Angeles.
    You know, they lived away from Los Angeles.
    And he said, here is the bank.
    You want to come in with me, or want to wait for me
    and look around?
    I said, let me look around.
    And I start walking the block.
    And I see how it is divided.
    You know, LA downtown is quite in circles.
    You have this and this.
    It doesn't go like in Pittsburgh.
    You know, it goes away this way and that way.
    Pittsburgh isn't laid out so--
    Los Angeles.
    And I look around, I make familiar.
    And he said, if you are not--
    you be here after half an hour or so.
    So, I marked myself the way, I shouldn't get lost.
    It was squares and this.
    And I go-- and for fun, I run in the jewelry stores were.
    So I go in, and I ask--
    I'm a refugee.
    I'm looking for a job.
    I had already done it the way I looked in Pittsburgh.
    And I have to make a living.
    I'm looking for a job.
    So, man, he said, stay here.
    We take out [INAUDIBLE] and this and make us, before the time--
    before the time, somebody says, you see,
    go over across the street.
    I think their watch repairman left them about a week ago,
    and they might need.
    And I go in, and sure enough, they need a watch repairman.
    And-- and they asked me, how much do you want?
    And I knew in Los Angeles everything is--
    I said $60.
    And I was making $35.
    And I wasn't--
    I just did-- for sure I wanted to test how it was.
    And he said, well, you come Monday.
    It was, I think, during the weekend.
    And we'll see. and if you know your business, you'll get $60.
    Then I still went in another story, you know, another store.
    So the other store said they have a branch in Long Beach,
    and they can use a watchmaker their, Long Beach.
    I don't know.
    I said, how do you get there.
    He said, oh, you take the streetcar.
    You know your streetcar in Riga, I was--
    there were streetcars.
    A streetcar was going maybe two or three miles at the most.
    And here what happened.
    And Long Beach is 30 miles from Los Angeles.
    And I got in, and I thought two or three miles,
    and I had still a lot of time.
    I didn't realize it.
    I got in in the street, and the streetcar
    goes, and goes, and goes, and goes, and goes, and goes.
    And I see my time is running up, and I got so worried.
    And I don't know how to-- what I should do.
    Should I-- anyhow, and I always-- and I start asking,
    is this too far?
    And they said pretty soon, pretty soon.
    Anyhow, I arrived in Long Beach.
    And while I was--
    and it so happened, when the street car stopped,
    the jewelry store was maybe a-- it was--
    they showed me where it is.
    You could see it.
    And I went in.
    And they said, yeah, if you want to.
    And we'll-- and I asked, too, $60.
    And they said, we'll pay you.
    And meanwhile, and I get back in the-- in this, on and on.
    And I thought, 30 miles, you know,
    takes you 30 or 35 minutes, that I'll be late so much.
    And I was so worried.
    And I came.
    And my uncle was-- no, my uncle was so excited, you could see.
    Well, he said, what happened to you?
    And I tell them the story.
    I thought in a streetcar, five, 10 minutes the most.
    And here-- anyhow, when I tell them the story,
    I looked and I found jobs.
    And I like it so much here, maybe, maybe.
    And I have to--
    in one place there.
    And I said, what is better, where to take it?
    He said, well, I don't know.
    He said, downtown you'll be closer to the relatives.
    There is--
    So I decided that there is so much opportunity.
    So we were talking.
    Well, I'll take the job.
    And I took the job.
    And I wrote him a letter, and I felt bad
    because he said be sure to come back.
    But I thought, here in Los Angeles
    I have a lot of relatives too, and they
    were pretty nice to me.
    And it's a nice place to live, just the climate
    and this impressed--
    cleanliness it was.
    And I took the job.
    And I worked for two years.
    I got an apartment, a room.
    No, first I had rooms with families, once or twice
    in two years.
    And I got a--
    and I worked there, and they were happy with me
    and I with them.
    And not only that, at the end of the two years, my uncle,
    this bachelor uncle--
    I wanted-- I saw too that working for somebody, always
    a watch repairman.
    Not only that, if you work for somebody
    and you have to deliver a lot of work, your eye gets tough,
    and it is--
    And I am-- not only that, I was figuring, I work for somebody.
    I was making work for $50 or $60 a day.
    And I was making $12.
    You understand?
    So we were discussing.
    And he was trying to help me.
    And he told me that here is new communities.
    You know, in Los Angeles, the immigration there,
    like now Florida, more.
    Everybody was going to that area--
    that there are contractors who will build new communities.
    And after it's ready, they rent out homes,
    and they'll have already like a little shopping center.
    So we looked in some places.
    And in one place I liked it very much.
    It was like in a corner store, a jewelry store.
    Not only that, they have people.
    In those days they had when jewelry people
    used to set up a jewelry store, with everything for sale.
    That was their business.
    And each new community, jewelry people or others,
    they would set up their business or a laundromat,
    everything ready.
    And then sell it as a business.
    And in one place--
    I don't remember the name--
    I liked it, and I was about to buy something for myself.
    And I thought, I'll fix watches and have little bands and this
    and gradually increase it.
    And I could make a living and get married.
    I'm not like the best for some bachelors are--
    I have time.
    I wanted to get married and to settle down because I
    understood life, you know.
    And I saw my uncle.
    Here is an uncle 53 years old and a businessman
    and could afford to have a family or a companion,
    and he lives by himself in a bachelor's apartment.
    And all he does is watch television or radio--
    there wasn't television yet--
    radio, and go fishing.
    And he had-- his kitchen was--
    had so many fishing rods, with all kind.
    He could-- an army of fishermen he could supply.
    And I said, that's not life.
    And then I used to think like from the old country, what
    you--
    you get old, you are by yourself and this.
    You have a family, a companion, and that's life.
    You are born and live, and then you get old
    and you leave children.
    It's like the rotation, the circling in a garden.
    And that's what our people-- and with the animal world,
    you know, you--
    and only in the beginning I couldn't.
    If you can't before--
    if you want to, but if you can't afford, you can't afford.
    So this time-- before, I thought when I will be a watchmaker
    and I save money and I--
    I'll tell you, I made an investment,
    and it brought me in $90 a month.
    I thought, my gosh, that's so good.
    Not only that, the fact that you can take money in a bank and it
    draws interest was to me such a blessing because while I was
    in the old country and in Russia, there wasn't.
    In Russia, the Russians came in and I lived in there
    for a year.
    There isn't such a thing as saving money and getting
    interest, you know.
    You could keep the money in the bank
    as safekeeping, but no interest.
    And this alone, it was a blessing.
    My gosh, I thought like that.
    If a person lives for two or three years very, very--
    he tights his belt, you know, and saves up money,
    he has a helper working for him.
    The money is help.
    That's a blessing.
    And as I said, I made-- after the two years,
    I made an investment.
    My uncle sold me a little bit of [INAUDIBLE],,
    and I had profit $90 a month.
    I thought it's a lot of money.
    However, I thought, if I can save up
    to get one more $90 a month, then
    I said, first, if even you are a watchmaker,
    it covers you for a rainy day or if you get sick.
    And this, if you--
    not this helps you live better and helps
    you save a little more.
    You know, my ambitions wasn't high.
    But then I got the idea of getting that little store.
    And I was already looking for it.
    And I had set on one which I liked.
    And it so happened, my brother was working here.
    And he had a-- we had another brother, you know.
    And he was helping him, and he passed away.
    And he calls me up, and he tells me the brother died.
    And he said, I don't think to the funeral,
    if you come, what will you do.
    You'll come, and you'll go back.
    But he said, you wait.
    I might need a helper.
    And you think about it.
    Would you want to come and be?
    And he said, I know the big city, Los Angeles, is better.
    But maybe you want to be here.
    As far as money is concerned, he said, this I can guarantee.
    You'll make out as good or better
    than you make with watch repairing.
    So I thought for a long time.
    And I thought I'm in a stage where I'm-- my job--
    usually, I respect the jobs.
    Now, many times I wonder when my kids get jobs or other people,
    they talk, if not I'll go another job.
    You know, I was still-- and I'm still
    like in that same old country, a job was a very valuable thing,
    if you got a job.
    For example, in Riga I had one job because you stick to it.
    And so there too, my job, I valued it.
    You have a good job, you stick to it
    because you don't know if you'll get another.
    That was my psychology.
    In America it's different.
    People will leave jobs and look for something better.
    And they'll quit before they have another job, you know?
    So I thought, the job I will give up because I'm--
    if I don't like it here, I'll come back
    and then we'll buy a little store.
    And I said it to my brother.
    I'll come, and it'll be a tryout.
    If I like it, I'll like it.
    He said, yeah, that's the right idea.
    And I came, and I settled here.
    So, How much more time do we have?
    We have plenty of time.
    Tell you another story.
    What time is it?
    It's only a quarter after 11.
    Oh, OK.
    So I settled here.
    I came here, and I stayed with my brother,
    with Miriam, for about two years.
    And then I got married.
    And this is a chapter by itself.
    But what I want to jump over to a chapter, which
    is interesting, something.
    I was living here, then I got married, had a family.
    And everything was fine and dandy.
    But one time in Bellaire, while I was in Bellaire,
    I have an aunt in my-- still my father's sister.
    She's the only one who is still now alive, in Marietta, Ohio.
    And I went there several--
    many times.
    And one time my aunt calls me.
    She used to call me to find how I am and how she is,
    for a conversation.
    And she said she has a daughter, a married
    daughter in Columbus, Ohio.
    And they are religious.
    They're going to shul, and they go there every--
    like you and I are now.
    So she said that Esther was there,
    and you know, she brought the rabbi from Columbus, Ohio.
    And Sadie, she is considered a smart woman, religious too.
    And we had a nice time--
    from Columbus, Ohio.
    And she said, he's a very Jewish man.
    He's from England.
    I said, from England, what--
    what's his name?
    She said, Wilansky, you know?
    Said I, Wilansky from England?
    Maybe, I said, when I was in Bergen-Belsen in the camp,
    we had a Rabbi Wilansky.
    I wonder if it is a son or a relative, or maybe nothing.
    She said, do you know what?
    I'm going to call Esther and find out.
    So within an hour, within the hour, she said--
    she called me back.
    You know, she said, that is the Wilansky.
    He was in Bergen-Belsen, she said.
    And he was the chaplain, a young man.
    And there I was, you know.
    How small the world is.
    Anyhow, and I called him right back in Columbus.
    She called me and said, and the next day, I called.
    And in Columbus-- and sure enough.
    And then I came to see him.
    And it was a--
    you know, we were like father and son.
    He was older already, with a great beard.
    So he came, and he was a rabbi, an Orthodox rabbi in Columbus.
    And we met and--
    However, after a few months, they
    did not renew his contract in that synagogue.
    And he emigrated to Israel.
    So all I saw him is once, and I talked to him
    a couple of times.
    So that's something.
    Isn't that a--
    Yeah.
    I just wonder if you have any conclusions or advice
    or anything, having gone through these--
    Let me.
    --experiences.
    I think we should have another--
    yeah, I-- sure, I have.
    I have.
    Let me think about it and have a clearer mind because one time
    I have been thinking about it, the conclusions
    or what to leave for the future generations
    about the experience.
    In fact, I feel that I didn't go through systematic.
    And were so many things what I left out.
    You know, the life, a base life in the ghetto or a base life
    when the Germans came, how we were worthless [INAUDIBLE]
    in one--
    with one law.
    In fact, who made the laws?
    Hitler gave them notions, and that a whole Jewish community
    of 30,000 or 40,000 like Riga become worthless.
    And anybody can kick you or spit on you or kill.
    You know, if you kill a dog, you'll be arrested and fined.
    In those days, if you killed a Jew, nothing, nothing.
    Do you see any similarities, anything here that's--
    I don't.
    I don't.
    I don't.
    And the system in America is different.
    However, I am a person now, with my experience,
    that everything can happen.
    It doesn't look like it will happen today
    or in the very near future.
    It would have-- in America, it should go through such
    repercussions because I don't know how a Hitler could grab
    or a--
    can you envision?
    It could happen if totalitarian should take over.
    But with our elections, it could not
    happen because there is a two-party system.
    There will be always somebody who will fight back.
    However, if a good speaker came, a good agitator,
    he can persuade that the Jewish communities is this and that.
    And we get excluded because Hitler didn't fight,
    in fact, half of the world.
    He fought only the Jews.
    However, today that is a superficial one to say.
    We have still sympathizers.
    We have this.
    However, look what happens, for example, what I notice.
    Before the Jews and Jewish leaders
    were in esteem in America, here comes Sadat
    and he wins the hearts of America, Sadat.
    Sadat will go a long way in America.
    You watch and see.
    Before, for example, the Jewish financial support,
    Israel was on its first place.
    They gave them this.
    And the Arabs used to get little support.
    Now they even-handedness, it starts.
    Now, it could be a time when Egypt will get more.
    In fact, they get already as much as the Jews.
    And the Jews will get less.
    Then another thing, for example, the sympathy,
    how the Arabs worked it out.
    When they get from the PLO sympathy, they get equal.
    They compare to the Jews.
    Here, the Jews didn't have a land,
    and we became Zionist and worked for the land.
    And here the Jews made homeless the Palestinians,
    which is not the truth.
    They don't recognize, for example,
    that Israel belongs to the Jews and they were just expelled
    for a long period of time.
    And the Arabs, another thing what,
    the Arabs came to Israel after the Jews start settling there.
    Because at the time of the Balfour Declaration,
    only 300,000 Arabs lived in Israel.
    And as soon as the Jews started building up,
    they came and lived from on the Jews [INAUDIBLE]..
    Or before the Arabs had their oil,
    Israel was attracting them because they were building,
    rebuilding.
    And the Arabs were asleep.
    And now, while the Arabs are getting the wealth and power,
    they're getting sympathy together with it.
    And the Jew sympathy somehow disappears
    We have what we suffered and we went through for the 2,000
    years or the last--
    or the Holocaust is little-- is little by little
    it's forgotten.
    So--
    Would you do anything different?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Considering your experiences, what would you do?
    Yeah.
    Well, I don't know is it because of my age or of the experience.
    I personally am not a fighter.
    I don't want to say I'm a hero.
    You know, I cannot kill anybody, and I wouldn't like to be
    killed myself.
    But I think the Jews made the mistake.
    We didn't fight back.
    Of course, it was a mistake that nobody
    could foresee because nobody--
    we had a lot of enemies in our 2,000 years
    history who threatened us.
    But there was never such an annihilation treatment.
    For example, the worst was in Spain.
    But they give you a choice--
    leave the country or become a Christian.
    When you say fight back, you mean physically.
    Physically.
    Physically.
    I don't know what the outcome would have been.
    But if we would be big fighters, maybe the results,
    and they would have changed their tactics.
    It was so-- of course, there we didn't have weapons, arms,
    shooting arms.
    But they would knock on each Jewish door, you know.
    And sometimes a German would come unarmed,
    and he would-- or have a stick.
    And whatever he said, he said go out of the house.
    Go out and leave it.
    This house is not ours.
    You have to leave everything and go out.
    And they would acquire it, use this, and use--
    if you have your valuables, take away,
    and then you had to go and go to a friend or relative
    or go somewhere and be outside.
    And somebody would let you in to stay over.
    And when they had a ghetto, you go to the ghetto.
    And you had to press in, force in yourself.
    Some Jews were here in a room, would be two or three
    families asleep on the floor.
    Would you recommend then that Jewish people be armed?
    I'll tell you.
    I'm sure.
    In fact, I am, for example, Kahane, the Jewish Defense
    League leader, you know, I'm a sympathizer of him.
    However, he is, by the Jewish community,
    he has some followers.
    But the majority are against him.
    We can't do that.
    We can't.
    I am a sympathizer.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Irving Lebow
    Date
    interview:  1980 October 12
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of Marilyn Stack

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    6 CDs.

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Lebow, Irving.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Marilyn Stack donated the oral history interview with Irving Lebow to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on January 3, 2017. The interview was recorded on October 12, 1980.
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 09:40:24
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn555355

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