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Oral history interview with Freuda Bark

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2017.382.1 | RG Number: RG-50.134.0001

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    Oral history interview with Freuda Bark
    Transcript
    We are recording in Haifa, Israel, on April 15, 1979.
    Jack Bark, interviewing his mother
    on a variety of events that took place many years ago
    that we have failed, for one reason or another,
    to record properly.
    And we want to ensure that these events are not
    forgotten and are well remembered by the family.
    The first area we're going to cover
    is the time of the German occupation of France, in 1941.
    Mom, tell us what took place during that period.
    Yes-- what you must be interested-- our situation
    during the German occupation and our escape from the Germans.
    Well, it so happened that my older child, Maurice,
    got polio in August 1940.
    And I thought I'll need remain there with my parents,
    in Vichy, during the German occupation, with my children.
    In the meantime, I wanted to settle everything in Paris.
    Then, as my child got sick.
    had polio, I took him--
    kept him home in Paris.
    I tried to do something.
    Somehow, people helped me--
    non-Jews-- Jews, non-Jews-- very few Jews
    remained in Paris, at that time.
    The first one was Professor [NON-ENGLISH]..
    When I called him up, right away he came up--
    took cares of the child--
    took him to his hospital--
    pediatrician.
    He was called the "God of the children of France."
    He was a very famous pediatrician.
    And he tried everything to help me,
    but he saw that the situation is getting
    bad, difficult, for a Jew--
    for a Jewish child.
    So he thought I should rather take back the child home.
    And then I heard, that in the United States of America,
    it happened a lot of children had polio.
    And they're treating it there.
    So I decided to do whatever possible-- be able to get out
    and to get to the United States, where my child will
    be treated like all the other children
    and will get back to health.
    Well, the first thing, I had to get an American visa.
    It was impossible.
    This was impossible.
    But there were machers, and I was--
    I was introduced to them.
    And they asked me--
    They told me, for $2,000, I may get an American transit visa.
    Once I get to New York, I will remain there.
    So I said, all right, but I would
    like to meet that American man that will help to get my visa.
    They introduced me to that man.
    And we had a talk.
    I gave him my address--
    my telephone number.
    And I told him, I hope that he will be able to get my visa
    and help me.
    And he--
    Do you remember his name?
    Do you remember his name?
    Well, is it important?
    Well, he's Puff, Mr. Puff--
    Monsieur Puff.
    That's his name.
    --was his name, yes.
    So then the two, those two Jews came up,
    and I gave them the $2,000.
    And they said, well, in a few days, you will get your visa.
    The visa was going to cost $2,000
    $2,000, yes.
    And how did you get to meet these two Jews that
    were going to arrange it?
    They were brought to me.
    Who brought them to you?
    Who arranged the--
    People-- they always--
    Friends?
    Friends of yours--
    Well, it's people that I knew.
    Because I told people that I must--
    I must get away to America, to the United States of America,
    because there they treat polio.
    So the word got out that you were interested--
    Yes.
    --in getting to America, and these two men--
    --that I'm interested-- I'm looking for a way
    to get a visa.
    And that you're willing to pay.
    And I'm willing to pay, certainly.
    So they introduced you to Mr. Puff, and--
    But I wanted--
    I didn't want-- I did not believe them,
    to give them the money without seeing
    that American that will-- really is interested to help me.
    --supposed to get the money.
    No.
    I don't know if he was supposed to get the money.
    But I gave them the-- after I met Mr. Puff,
    and I saw-- the next day, I gave them the money, the $2,000.
    And they said, within a few days I probably
    will get an American visa.
    But a few days elapsed, and I didn't hear from them.
    Then Mr. Puff calls me up and says, Mme.
    Bark, you don't want anymore the American visa?
    I said, yes, I want.
    I even paid the two men $2,000.
    So he says, what?
    They told me that you don't want anymore.
    Well, I will get in touch with them,
    and we'll see that they should give you back the $2,000.
    And I will get the visa for you.
    So they were trying to steal the money, those two men.
    They tried to steal the money.
    He called them.
    They came to see him, and they told-- he said,
    you took $2,000 from Mrs. Bark.
    They said yes.
    We-- we will share it.
    All right, and we'll give you a part of it.
    He says, I don't want a part of it.
    I don't want anything.
    You just give back the $2,000 to Mme.
    Bark, and that's all.
    And I don't want to see you anymore.
    If you don't do it, I will deliver to the Germans.
    They brought me back to $2,000.
    And Mr. Puff came up.
    He took my passport.
    He got me a visa to Honduras.
    He came with that visa, Honduras visa,
    and told me that this visa cost $10, but it's worthless.
    It's not a-- it's just a fictitious visa
    that the consul gave it to me as a favor,
    that you should be able to get the American transit.
    And that means what?
    It means you're allowed to stop in America
    on the way to Honduras.
    So-- for two weeks.
    I was supposed to get the American transit
    visa for two weeks, to stop in America for two weeks.
    In two weeks, I didn't have--
    I could have refused to move farther.
    Is that a common thing to do, to give someone a transit visa?
    Is that usually given for business purposes or what?
    No, it's given sometimes, for people that have to transit.
    To go to Honduras, you probably had
    to transit through the States of America.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    There were no ships direct to Honduras.
    Who was Puff working for, now, Mr. Puff?
    Mr. Puff was-- he was in the American intelligence.
    He was an American.
    He was an American, born from Indian parents.
    And his parents were real Americans--
    Indians.
    --American Indians.
    American Indians.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    So he didn't want to charge you anything.
    And he didn't charge me anything.
    OK.
    And that's just the beginning.
    How do you get out, though, once you have--
    That's the-- yes.
    Once you have a visa, does that mean--
    No, it's not-- it's not so easy-- it wasn't
    so easy, to get American-- then he went to the American consul.
    Yeah.
    He had free entrance, because he was part of the American staff
    there--
    Right.
    --and applied with my passport.
    He was my protekcja, no?
    He helped me.
    And I was promised the--
    I was called days, a few days later,
    I think, to the American consul.
    And I started to fill out papers and so on.
    And while I was sitting there, I saw
    a young-- a man, about, oh, perhaps 40
    years old came down with papers in his hand.
    He was looking at me from head to toes.
    I didn't pay attention.
    But this was the consul--
    the American consul.
    He was looking at me and judged me,
    if he should trust me to give me a transit visa--
    if I warrant it.
    And--
    More than one way.
    Huh?
    If I found grace in his eyes.
    [LAUGHS]
    You weren't a schlep.
    If I wasn't a schlepper.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    And I received American transit visa for two weeks.
    All right, now I had American transit visa.
    But from Paris, I couldn't get out with any visa.
    I had to get a pass from a German Kommandatur--
    German commander-- commandant.
    And this was almost impossible, for a Jew.
    There were machers, for money, but it wasn't so easy.
    And I didn't have time.
    I had to have it right away.
    All right, I had a Polish passport,
    with my children on my passport.
    And this was also a miracle.
    Because if I would have been a French woman,
    I couldn't have gotten out with my children,
    without permission from my husband.
    And I had no contact with my husband.
    But, as a Polish woman, I had the same right as the men,
    and I could get out with the children.
    But now it was the question, to get that pass
    from that American.
    Somehow--
    The Germans.
    From the Germans.
    And somehow I tried--
    I said, I will try by myself.
    I went to the Kommandatur at 8 o'clock in the morning--
    before 8:00, yet.
    There was a big line, waiting there--
    hundreds of people already.
    So I saw, if I would stay in the line,
    I will never get in-- impossible.
    So I looked around--
    side doors, as possible somewhere to get in.
    But at every door there was a policeman.
    So I approached one of the policemen,
    and I told them my story--
    that my parents are in Vichy, and my child got so sick,
    and I must get to there to a professor, but I need a pass
    and I must get in today.
    What language were you speaking?
    French.
    A French policeman.
    Oh, a French policeman.
    French policeman was standing there.
    And he said, your parents are in Vichy?
    Say, yes.
    Well, my wife is from [FRENCH].
    Then we are neighbors.
    You know what?
    I will help you.
    I will let you get in-- but on one condition,
    that you must not tell that I let you in-- that you came in
    through that door.
    Say, I promise you.
    He let me in.
    As I came in and went over then after I went over
    to the lieutenant-- he didn't know that I
    didn't come in from the line.
    I spoke to him already in German and told him
    that I wish two passes on.
    He said, you can't get a pass.
    And yet, to the lieutenant, I did not tell that I'm Jewish.
    He thought I'm French.
    You can't get a pass.
    But I remained there.
    He said no.
    I went to a corner and was waiting there while
    and he went back to the lieutenant.
    Again he said no, and again I did the same thing.
    I thought, I must not get out from here,
    because it's impossible to get in.
    So later-- it was already 1 o'clock in the afternoon--
    I went over again to him, to that lieutenant.
    He said, in German-- we spoke in German--
    said, you are still here?
    Why don't you get away?
    I say, I must have a pass.
    I can't get away without a pass.
    You will not get a pass.
    So I again went to a corner and was waiting.
    And so it was going on till 4 o'clock.
    4 o'clock comes--
    I don't know which way he came in--
    a sergeant, a German sergeant--
    comes over to me.
    I was very nervous, from the morning,
    without even a drink of water-- nothing.
    He came over to me-- asked me what's the matter--
    what I'm doing there.
    And I told him that I need a pass,
    and the lieutenant refuses a pass,
    and I can't get out without a pass.
    So he says, leave the lieutenant alone.
    Forget him.
    You go directly to the commandant.
    He is up one floor up--
    that-and-that door is his office.
    Go straight to him.
    He's a very fine man.
    He will get you a pass.
    I thanked him.
    And I tried to get up somehow to let me walk through to watches
    there.
    They were watching the steps, so to say.
    Somehow they let me pass through,
    and I arrived to the commandant's office door.
    But before I knocked at the door, I heard voices there--
    man, woman, drinking, talking loud, and on.
    So I said, in such a [INAUDIBLE],, I cannot get in.
    I went back down again.
    But then the sergeant wasn't there anymore.
    I waited for half an hour, perhaps.
    I went up again.
    I listened at the door.
    It was quiet.
    I say, I hope the commander didn't go away yet.
    So I knocked at the door.
    Oh, [GERMAN].
    I opened the door-- went inside.
    The lieutenant looked at me.
    He couldn't understand who is that woman that
    could get through and come up to his office.
    And he got up and came toward me.
    I was very elegantly dressed--
    my gray fur coat and gray fur hat.
    And so he gave me--
    he greeted me.
    And I told him-- in German, of course--
    to excuse me, that I allowed myself to go into this office,
    but I need his help.
    Please, help me.
    I am a Jewess, and I have a sick child.
    He had polio, and I have to get out--
    I would like to go to a professor
    in the other side of France.
    I was told there is a good professor there.
    So he looks at me.
    And then he said that loaded word, in German--
    what am I doing here?
    I have a wife and four children at home.
    I will help you.
    You will get the pass right away, your pass.
    And he calls this, from the next room, his secretary
    and told her to write out the pass for me
    and to bring him to sign.
    He says and I thanked him.
    I went with the secretary to her room--
    to her office.
    And when she looked at my identity card, which
    was marked in red "Juif," "Jew," she said, this is impossible!
    A Jew cannot get a pass.
    The commandant probably didn't know that you are a Jewess.
    You didn't tell him.
    I said, yes, I told him.
    He knew.
    And I told him.
    Impossible.
    And she picks up my card and papers
    and goes more to go back to the commandant.
    She knocks at the door, and the commandant is at the door--
    opens the door and says, Fraulein--
    which means-- let me say--
    how do you say, in English--
    "Madame"--
    "Miss"-- --no-- "Miss"--
    "Mrs."
    "Miss" I told you to write out the pass for this lady
    and bring it to me to sign.
    No questions, please.
    She didn't answer, went back to her table,
    and wrote out the pass, went in.
    He signed it.
    I was given the pass.
    I came down.
    The sergeant is there.
    He's there.
    And he comes towards me.
    He says, well?
    Did you do as I told you?
    I say, yes, I did, and I have the pass.
    You see?
    I told you he's a fine man.
    He will give you a pass.
    I say, yes.
    Now you need a railroad card--
    a ticket.
    I say, yes, I will go into Cook, here.
    Place de la Madeleine was Cook's office.
    Do you think they will give you a ticket--
    they will sell you a ticket?
    It's so easy?
    I go with you.
    And I will see that you get your ticket for--
    today is Thursday-- for tomorrow night.
    So he went with me to Cook's.
    And I came in there, and I asked for a ticket, they says,
    there is none.
    Everything is sold out--
    none.
    They don't know when they will have.
    So the sergeant approached.
    He knocked at the table and said--
    in German, of course--
    said, I'm telling you, right away
    you should get tickets for that lady.
    She has to go away with two children--
    and demanded there at Cook's got so scared
    for that German, a sergeant.
    He says, excuse me, excuse me, I'm
    going to ask the chief if he has something.
    He went in the back, there, where the chief's office
    was-- came back.
    He says, well, I could give you one sleeper for the sick child,
    and for you and the second child first class.
    Said, all right, I accept.
    But he gave me a cabin a sleeper cabin, with one bed--
    one cabin and one bed.
    So Maurice was in the bed, and Jackie was
    on the other side of the bed--
    although we had first-class ticket-- and I
    was sitting on the floor, lying on the bundles
    there, on the train.
    Mhm.
    Where was this train going?
    The train was going to Vichy.
    Vichy.
    To Vichy.
    And when the ambulance came to, there were no taxis,
    I had to call an ambulance to take us
    to the railroad station.
    When the ambulance came, neighbors there tried
    to persuade me-- this was the end of November--
    winter-- tried to persuade me I should not go away
    with two children and a sick child
    and in wintertime, that I don't know
    where I may land up and so on.
    I didn't listen to no one, but I was
    happy to get in the ambulance with the children-- went
    to the station.
    We had our tickets.
    We got on the train.
    And the next morning, we were in Vichy.
    All right.
    So I got out of a different occupation land.
    This was free France.
    One question I want to ask you.
    I seem to remember a soldier taking us in his car somewhere.
    Oh, yes, this was before--
    What was that all about?
    --when I was-- when I received-- someone wrote a note
    and put under our door that Maurice got sick.
    Remember?
    Yes.
    And I didn't know where to go--
    where is the Kommandatur-- nothing.
    So when that German officer stopped his car--
    he brought a lady there, to her home--
    Near our house.
    --so I approached him and asked them
    to help me somehow and advise me how to do-- what to do.
    So he gave me some ticket--
    I don't know-- some card, with a mark,
    and said I should go there tomorrow morning.
    This was at 7 o'clock in the evening already--
    and they will already help me.
    What were you trying to do?
    I was trying to get a pass, at that time,
    first to go and get Maurice.
    Oh, just to find out what had happened to him.
    To find out what happened to him.
    Oh, I see.
    This was the first time you found out Maurice was sick.
    And you were--
    I was told he is sick.
    And you were in Paris.
    [CROSS TALK], I was--
    And he was in Vichy.
    He was in Vichy.
    I see.
    OK, so now--
    You, too-- I and you, and I took you along, when I
    went back to Paris, to settle there a few things.
    In the meantime, Maurice got sick there.
    OK.
    So now we're in--
    Now, we arrived at Vichy--
    went to my parents' home, there.
    And the child was taken to the hospital in Vichy.
    So I started to see what I--
    what I have to do farther, to get out of France--
    to get to New York.
    Right.
    So I needed a French--
    first, a visa sortie from the French.
    Then I needed a visa from the Spanish--
    transit visa from the Spanish, and a transit visa
    from the Portuguese.
    That was the way to get out of--
    And in Portugal, in Lisbon, I could get on a boat.
    Was that the only way to leave, at the time?
    The only way, at that time, to leave.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    Well, I went to the préfecture, first, for that sortie-- visa
    se sortie.
    The secretary-- I was talking with her a little bit,
    and she told me her story.
    Her son is in Africa, with Daladier,
    and they are treated--
    have very little to eat, and so on.
    And-- told me about her troubles.
    And tomorrow I should come and see if that visa de sortie.
    So while I left, that afternoon, I
    went to the market, where a black--
    whatever was selling on black market--
    a lot of things.
    And I bought a kilo of chocolate.
    And the next day, I took that kilo chocolate
    to that secretary of the préfecture.
    And I told her, I bought you this.
    You should send it to your son.
    She was so happy.
    She said, how could you get that chocolate?
    I said, I got it from friends.
    And--
    She didn't know what to do with me.
    She got me the visa.
    I went to the French--
    to the Spanish consul, after.
    The Spanish consul was such a mean--
    he treated so meanly the Jews.
    He didn't care.
    He preferred they should land up in German hands.
    I said, get out.
    So I was there--
    was told someone, some, that he wants money.
    So-- was introduced to someone that would take the money
    and get me the visa.
    But I didn't want to trust that man, a few thousand francs.
    I said I would deposit that money to someone
    that I would knew also.
    And when I get the visa, that man will pay you the money.
    Two weeks elapsed, and I didn't--
    it was understood that in two weeks I have to get the visa.
    Two weeks elapsed.
    I didn't get the visa.
    I got back the money from that man that I deposited.
    I went back to Vichy, to see what
    the children are doing, and went back to Marseilles,
    because the consul, the Spanish consul, was in Marseilles.
    Went back to Marseilles, to the consul, Spanish consul,
    and request again my visa.
    He said, not yet.
    Not yet.
    Not yet.
    But somehow I was--
    this was a week, again, a week that I was in Marseilles.
    Were we in Vichy still?
    And you were with my parents and Maurice in the hospital.
    In hospital.
    Yes.
    [INAUDIBLE] before or this is after Maurice got sick?
    No, this was later.
    This was already five months later, when Maurice got polio.
    But he had to be in a hospital.
    My mother couldn't take care of him.
    Mhm?
    How could she?
    And the French consul was in Vichy.
    That, you took care of in Vichy?
    No.
    No.
    The préfecture was also in Marseilles.
    Oh, you had to do that in Marseilles--
    Also in Marseilles.
    And the Portuguese consul, also in Marseilles.
    And the Spanish consul in Marseilles.
    And I went to the Portuguese consul.
    Somehow, they gave me right away the visa.
    I didn't--
    I went there, also.
    I requested the visa and signed papers.
    And the secretary there, I brought her a big bottle
    of eau de cologne--
    a present.
    And right away I got my visa--
    also transit visa, Portugal.
    But they were--
    I'm afraid that they thought I will never
    get the Spanish visa.
    So what do they lose if they give me the Portuguese visa?
    If I can't transit to Spain, I will never
    get to Portugal anyway.
    And even from the consul, the secretary
    sent a man from the consul with me to the Spanish consul--
    i he wouldn't listen to no one.
    But a miracle happened.
    One day, a lady came in-- an older lady--
    requesting her visa to go to Spain.
    And he threw her out.
    And she happened to be the mother
    of the American ambassador in Madrid.
    She called up her son and told him the story.
    She was thrown out, he didn't want to give her a visa,
    and he wants only money, and she will not give money.
    Of course, her son went right away
    to the foreign ministry in Madrid--
    made a complaint.
    His mother got, the next day, her visa.
    But this-- Rafael was his name, that consul.
    He was already on the complain, and that he's taken money.
    And he was in danger.
    The next day, when I came for my visa, requesting again--
    I was going daily.
    I was going to the Spanish consul.
    So he says, ah, Mme.
    Park, you got your visa.
    And my visa was there already more than a week,
    but he just didn't want to give it to me.
    So I said, fine, thank you.
    But you have to do something for me, too.
    What do I have to do for you?
    You shall come with me to the ambassador--
    Spanish ambassador-- to his office and tell him-- no,
    first he tells me, here's your visa.
    Did you pay for that visa?
    I say, no, I didn't.
    Because I had my money back anyway.
    So I didn't pay anything.
    He say, you didn't pay?
    Well, I wish you should come with me to the office--
    The Secretary to the Office of the Ambassador,
    and tell him that you have your visa, that you
    didn't pay for it.
    I said, all right, I will do you a favor.
    But my friend, Madame Rathaus, she's here three months,
    and she comes daily to you.
    And she doesn't have her visa, yet.
    Why?
    Says, well, I promise you, she will get her visa tomorrow.
    Because at midnight, I used to call up
    the foreign office in Madrid, and sign up for the visas.
    And those-- now, those hundreds of Jews, refugees,
    that lining up in front of your consulate daily,
    and you throwing them away, and you're not
    giving any visa to them?
    He says, well, I promise you, they will all get their visa.
    So right, I went with him to the ambassador.
    I told the ambassador the whole story.
    Why I'm going away, how I'm going away,
    and that I got my visa and I have my Portuguese visa
    already.
    And of course, he listened to me, that told him,
    Rafael is a fine man.
    He's helping out, on the contrary.
    And really, Madame Rathaus had the next day, her visa.
    And when I was in Ellis Island, I
    saw hundreds of those men that were lining up
    in front of the Spanish consul, passing by there.
    And went back, but he paid me back, also,
    because I took the money back.
    He denounced me to the police in Marseille.
    In Marseille, I was registered in my uncle's address,
    in my mother's home.
    But I lived in a hotel.
    So I came, when everything was ready, I came to my uncle,
    say goodbye to him.
    He says, well, Teva, here from the police,
    from the prefecture, they wanted to see you.
    But you weren't here, and they requested
    that you should come to the prefecture, to the police.
    You are wanted there for something.
    When I heard this, I went to my hotel.
    I took my little bundle, because I didn't
    have much baggage with me.
    Paid for the room and went to the station.
    I said, I will not go to the police.
    I have my two children in Vichy, no matter what
    happened, I rather be with the children together.
    Because if they keep me there at the police,
    do I know what's going on there?
    What will go on there?
    Who do you think was behind this?
    The Spanish consul.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    He was trying to get--
    He was trying to do me harm.
    Because I took back my money.
    But you don't know what he actually said or did?
    Wait a minute, but so I came to the railroad station
    in Marseille.
    I was told there's only a train--
    it was 4 o'clock, perhaps--
    perhaps sooner, yet, to Vichy, only at 11 o'clock at night.
    And I was so desperate.
    There was standing a man, a Frenchman, out in his 40s,
    perhaps.
    And I said to him, I have to go to Vichy,
    there's only a train at 11 o'clock.
    I will have to wait till 11 o'clock here.
    He says, I'm going to Vichy, too.
    But who waits till 11 o'clock at night?
    There's a train now that goes to Moulins.
    In Moulins, we change, there's a train
    that goes to Vichy from there, through Moulins.
    And at 11 o'clock, we're going to be in Vichy already.
    And will you come?
    I take you with me if you want to.
    I will show you how to get--
    so I went with him.
    We took the train.
    It was quite early.
    We came to Moulins.
    Moulins, we got off that train.
    We even went into a restaurant to eat something.
    And then, came the next train that went to Vichy.
    And about 11 o'clock, I was in Vichy.
    And when we arrived in Vichy, that man says to me,
    don't go out front.
    Front, there is police and Germans,
    they may ask questions, papers.
    We will get out on the other side, and through the side door
    we will get out, but there is no one there.
    And he helped me to jump down the train on the other side--
    because it was very deep there.
    And I went home to my parents.
    And went to sleep.
    In the morning, I got up bright early in the morning
    to go to see Maurice at the hospital.
    Well, as soon as I got out of the house,
    there was standing a policeman with a bayonet up,
    and picks my arm, and says, you are Madame Bark?
    Said, yes.
    Well, come with me.
    What do you mean, come with me?
    Why should I go with you?
    I want to go to see my child in hospital.
    You come with me.
    You're requested at the police, and you come with me.
    You were arrested yesterday yet in Marseille.
    So as I didn't show up at the police station in Marseille,
    they were searching at the train, 11 o'clock at night,
    said the commissaire should search, get me from the train,
    off the train.
    But they didn't find me in that train.
    So the commissaire arrived to Vichy.
    And they didn't know-- they thought perhaps I came--
    I was hidden somewhere in the train, or something.
    So they sent that policeman should stay near the door
    as soon as I will arrive.
    Or if I'm there, whatever, he should bring me to the police.
    So he took me to the police.
    But I said, I want to take my child with me.
    And I called you out, I took you along with me
    to the police station.
    And there, the police, the secretary--
    how do you call it?
    That commissaire for Marseille started to question me
    and to push me.
    And two policemen standing behind me.
    And I didn't know what they wanted, what
    they are requesting from me.
    Because what they asked me-- and sometimes, I
    wanted to answer the questions, and somehow,
    like a miracle from my mouth, other words came out,
    other answers came out.
    And this was going on like this 11 o'clock.
    Then, he takes out the--
    he had the letter that he was given to arrest me,
    and he reads it what he should question me, and so on.
    But you should not harm that woman physically.
    It was added.
    He says, why did they say I shouldn't harm you physically?
    If I could go physically with you,
    you would answer everything, all the questions
    I request from you.
    So when I heard this, that he's not supposed to hurt me,
    I got up and said to him, monsieur commissaire,
    you are a Frenchman.
    And if you deliver me to the Germans like you were told to,
    you will have the blood of a woman
    and two children on your hands.
    You see, I have all my papers to leave.
    Say, show them to me.
    I showed him all the papers.
    He looked at that American visa--
    he couldn't understand English.
    He didn't there were red ribbons, and so on.
    It was enormous, that he didn't understand himself what it is.
    He told me, who knows what kind of visa this is.
    And he pitied me.
    After all, he understood.
    And I again told him, you don't want to have blood of a woman
    with two children on your hands.
    After all, you are a Frenchman, and you have nothing
    with the Germans.
    So he says to me like this, Madame Bark,
    you see, today is Saturday, yeah?
    I'm finished now.
    I have nothing to do.
    Tomorrow is Sunday--
    I must not do anything.
    It's not urgent.
    Monday, I'm going back to Marseille.
    Tuesday only, I have to deliver my report.
    Can you be out of the country by Tuesday?
    I say, I will.
    He said, well, if you will be out.
    But I need some money.
    I only have French money, and I need some money
    from the Banque de France for my trip.
    He said, all right, you got to [PLACE NAME],,
    it is a community not far from Vichy--
    you go ask for Monsieur Bonjour, and he will give you the money.
    How much French money you have, as many dollars
    he will give you.
    So on Monday morning, I want to [FRENCH],, I got $1,300 dollars.
    That much I had French money, no more.
    And came back in the evening, packed up everything.
    And Tuesday morning, at 5 o'clock, we left Vichy.
    My father and mother came with me to the train.
    It was the 9th of December, 1940.
    Snowing, cold, my David, my brother-in-law, it was--
    he was coming with us to the frontier.
    Jonas.
    Jonas, I got a pass for him.
    Because I was already known there at the police.
    I would ask for a pass--
    I said, I need help.
    So they gave him a pass.
    He could go back-- he could stop in Marseille,
    buy some merchandise, otherwise, he could never have gotten
    a pass to travel around there.
    So at the train, my mother said to my father,
    you are le croyant-- bless her, she should in peace
    arrive to New York.
    So he put his hand on my head and he cried.
    I cried, and my father cried, my mother cried, all.
    And he blessed me.
    I went on train, the train left.
    My brother-in-law came with me.
    At the frontier, Spanish frontier,
    he came to the Spanish frontier.
    I had to remain there overnight.
    That was the law of Spanish law--
    they had to find out if it's not a false visa, or something--
    overnight.
    And so the next morning, I left for Madrid.
    In Madrid, I stayed a day, rested a day,
    and continued to Lisbon.
    In Lisbon, I went to the best hotel with the two children.
    And I had a letter--
    Mr. Toth provided for me a letter
    from the chief of the American intelligence in Paris,
    to the chief of the American intelligence in Lisbon,
    should see to put me on the boat.
    So I went to him.
    His name was Clyde--
    Mr. Clyde, he was--
    after the war, he was Senator of the New York state.
    And I gave him the letter.
    He read the letter.
    Took out his car, and he took me to the Joint office--
    introduced me to the chief of the Joint in Lisbon, Mr. Rosen.
    He said, only, I request from you
    to put that lady and her two children
    on the first boat that leaves for New York.
    And left.
    This was enough.
    So Mr. Rosen said, all right.
    When I started to tell me what boat there is--
    there was a boat, a big boat that was leaving on Saturday,
    and a smaller boat on Friday.
    So I said, I'd rather leave on the smaller boat on Friday,
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    And he told me not to stay at that big hotel,
    because it would cost me a fortune.
    He took me to a pension--
    so small hotel, where mostly refugees stayed.
    And I stayed there for the next five days--
    which was half the price.
    So he asked me, when I came, already
    was ready, how much I have to pay for the hotel?
    $200, I must have arriving in New York.
    And the rest, I had $700 less, this
    I should pay for the boat tickets.
    I was glad to give him the $700 he should put me on boat, only.
    I should only be able to leave for New York.
    So he said, like this--
    your child, for on the boat, must not
    know that your child has polio, because they would not
    let them into America.
    So you will say the child has a cold.
    I will have a boy coming to get him.
    We will wrap him in a blanket.
    He will carry him on his shoulders.
    And we will say, he has a cold.
    A few days, he will be all right.
    And he came, himself, to the boat with me,
    to see that I should get on board the ship.
    So Maurice was put to bed.
    Nobody on board-- the doctor, nobody knew.
    I didn't want the doctor to come to see him for his cold,
    or something.
    He said, when you will be two days out in the ocean,
    you may call the doctor, you may tell him already, what it is.
    So that's how the trip-- if you remember the trip.
    We hit a storm, three days in a storm.
    Instead nine days, it took us 11 days to arrive to New York.
    Arriving in New York, we were taken to Ellis Island--
    of course, I have a sick child, having
    a husband who was not yet legal there, because he was only
    temporarily there.
    So we were all three-- we were taken to a hospital.
    The hospital in Ellis Island, military hospital.
    And I needed so badly that rest, I was so tired,
    I was knocked out.
    The first week was all right.
    You, too, must have been tired, because somehow they
    kept you in bed when the doctors came and so on.
    But after two weeks, it was impossible to you.
    You only wanted to run around, go around,
    you didn't want to stay in bed.
    And the law in the hospital there
    was, when the doctors make their rounds,
    patients had to be in bed.
    And you jumped out of bed, and they wanted to catch you.
    Before they saw you were already on your four pat--
    under the beds, from one side to the other.
    If they arrived on the other, you were on the other side,
    and they couldn't catch you.
    So after three weeks, they took us to the camp on Ellis Island.
    But they allowed me every day to come and see Maurice.
    So every day, someone came with me.
    They wouldn't allow me to go by myself, because they
    were afraid I may escape.
    All the law was this way.
    And daily, we went to see Maurice.
    He was very happy we came to see him.
    Somehow he was patient.
    He got there physiotherapy treatment at the hospital.
    He was well taken care of there, in Ellis Island.
    But when we arrived there--
    when we were taken to Ellis Island,
    the immigration inspectors took me to a room
    and started to question me.
    And you came, I took you along with me.
    Maurice remained on a bench there, lying.
    And you came into that room with me.
    So one of the inspectors, such a mean Irishman, a Jew hater,
    your child cannot sit with you.
    He has to sit there in the other corner of the room.
    So you were sitting there, and he was yelling at me,
    questioning me.
    He was questioning your name, all right.
    Your nationality?
    All right.
    I told him.
    Your race?
    I told him, White.
    He got up over the table said, White?
    Are Jewish, aren't you?
    I said, yes, I'm Jewish.
    This is not my race, this is my religion, Jewish.
    Because I spoke Yiddish--
    I had a translator with me, that translated from Jewish to--
    I thought I prefer to have a Jew with me.
    Although, he was the same way--
    he had to be true to the government.
    But somehow, he pitied me, also.
    And he was yelling, he said to secretary,
    write down Jewish, race Jewish.
    So all right, let's be race, Jewish.
    But you couldn't stand it.
    So you got up from your bench there, came over to me,
    and said, mama, don't you see those are Germans?
    We are going to America, what are we doing here?
    Let's go to America.
    We don't want to be with the Germans.
    So one of the inspectors there, that
    understood French, he spoke French to you--
    we spoke French, says to that chief inspector,
    that Irishman, he says, don't yell at her.
    Because her child is scared.
    He takes us for Germans.
    So he shut down a little bit.
    But no, you cannot get into the office.
    You have to remain here.
    So we remained a month.
    Went over five weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, nothing doing.
    Came from Joint, from HIAS, nobody
    could do anything for us.
    We have to leave the States.
    You know, it's against the law, we don't admit sick people.
    And that's it.
    I had an uncle in Memphis, Tennessee, my father's oldest
    brother.
    So finally, I decided to write a letter to him.
    Perhaps he can help me.
    Because I don't like to ask for favors, especially family.
    So I wrote him a letter, and told him the whole story,
    the situation, how it is.
    One of his sons was a lawyer, and a big shot
    in the Democratic party.
    He was a friend of Mr. Cordell Hull, who
    was Secretary of State at that time,
    he was a friend of Mr. McKellar, who was senator at that time.
    And he knew, personally, Mr. Roosevelt, also.
    Mr. Roosevelt also had once polio,
    and yet he was president.
    So he wrote express letters--
    air mail, express letters--
    I don't know if it was air mail-- but express letters,
    registered express letters to the president, to Mr. McKellar,
    to Mr. Cordell Hull, in my uncle's name.
    His niece is being kept in Ellis Island,
    and the child is already seven months after polio.
    He was then, I think, seven months it was already.
    Or the eighth month.
    And it's not contagious, and it's not a sickness,
    and the child will get well, has only to be treated.
    And he requested, should be let out right away.
    And immediately, as soon they received the letters,
    Pat was called up-- his lawyer was called up by phone,
    they should come to Washington.
    And we were admitted.
    And Washington, from Washington, the Attorney General
    called up Ellis Island that we are freed.
    That Irishman, he got so angry.
    He said to the chief of Ellis Island,
    where's our country going to if they let such people go in
    to our country?
    But it was about 5 o'clock in the evening, and he says,
    you have to leave immediately.
    You are free.
    I said, but I would like to stay overnight.
    I don't know where to go.
    My husband doesn't know.
    I don't know at the telephone how to call him.
    You have to leave immediately.
    I don't care where you go.
    You are free, and you cannot be kept here.
    Not even an hour longer.
    Finally, I told the address of the father,
    and he was called up there--
    he was living, rented a room from a doctor there--
    Anish, if you remember Anish?
    Yes.
    So pop came out with a taxi, took us up to his room.
    We stayed there perhaps two days,
    and Maurice was taken to a hospital in New York--
    General Hospital.
    But this was not an orthopedic hospital.
    Maurice had to be in an orthopedic hospital.
    And it so happened that Mrs. Foreman was a social worker
    at this General Hospital.
    And she came in to see us, and said,
    Jewish refugees escaped from the Nazis.
    And somehow, she liked Maurice so much, and Maurice liked her.
    And he formed a song for Mrs. Foreman.
    Said, most Mrs. Foreman, she is the nicest, she is the--
    she used to come up every day.
    So she went to the Polio Association, Infantile
    Paralysis Association, and had they
    should see that Maurice should be admitted
    to an orthopedic hospital.
    But we had to pay--
    we didn't pay a big part, but we paid--
    we had to pay every week the hospital.
    I still have to roll of bills, if you want to see them.
    You could even have them.
    For years, six years he was in that orthopedic hospital.
    And Mrs. Foreman had--
    Six years, full time?
    Six years, full time.
    He was sent out to Blythedale in summer.
    From 1940 to--
    No, it was '41, and he was admitted there in April,
    after Pesach.
    In April, because he was [INAUDIBLE]---- in April '41.
    All the way to 1947?
    Yes, he came home for his bar mitzvah
    and went back to the hospital.
    You don't remember.
    Then, how long did he stay in a hospital after his bar mitzvah?
    I'll tell you, he was there for about six years, altogether.
    Then he came home for good?
    Then he came home for good.
    But he was schooling-- he received schooling there.
    Yes.
    And where were we living during those six years?
    After we left Anish, where did we go?
    Oh, we went to an apartment.
    Right away?
    Right away.
    On 27th Street?
    On 27th Street, if you remember.
    On the sixth floor?
    On this sixth floor, was it?
    But there was an elevator.
    Yes, that worked once in a while.
    And yes, and we stayed there a year and a half.
    And then we got an apartment, 22nd Street, more modern house,
    nicer house.
    We are concluding now the episode about arriving
    to the United States.
    And we're going to discuss some of our family members
    in France.
    Two of my brothers were deported to Auschwitz, never came back.
    My mother died, my brother-in-law
    was deported, also to Auschwitz.
    And very many French, also, were deported to Auschwitz,
    and never came back.
    What happened to Giselle?
    Giselle and her mother survived in Free France.
    Dora, with her husband and children and my parents,
    stayed in a little village in France.
    South of France?
    Southwest?
    South of France, survived.
    What happened to Giselle's father?
    Giselle's father was my brother, he was deported to Auschwitz.
    What was his name?
    Lipa.
    And he's the one that escaped?
    He was first captured?
    He was captured as a French soldier.
    He had French nationality.
    And he escaped from the camp, from the prisoners camp.
    But was tortured then by the Germans, and deported.
    And my youngest brother.
    Those two brothers that were with America,
    they went there before the war years.
    So my father was alive, and my sister and my husband's sister,
    Rose, remained with the child, also in Free France.
    What happened to her husband?
    Deported, killed.
    How was he captured?
    He was captured in Free France.
    He was a Polish Jew.
    And he was on his way to see his son?
    He was on his way--
    his wife gave birth to the child,
    to the baby, the first baby.
    And he was trying to get to the hospital.
    So he was captured.
    So he took an unnecessary risk?
    It wasn't-- he didn't know anything like this will happen.
    It happened.
    It was unpredictable those days.
    How would you like to take the last few minutes
    and tell us about our Jerusalem Hasidic family,
    and how they're related to us, and how they arrived in Israel?
    Well, your cousin from Vienna, she came as a [NON-ENGLISH]..
    Her name?
    Sara Dealer-- as a girl, it was Dealer--
    Sara Dealer.
    And she was a teacher in Israel before she
    came, before the war, yet.
    And she got-- her mother was my mother's younger sister.
    She escaped from Vienna.
    Her younger sister, 16 years younger than she,
    was sent out with a group of children, and escaped.
    Sydney, that's right.
    And my uncle, Eli, somehow escaped with his wife and son,
    escaped to Switzerland.
    And they survived in Switzerland.

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Freuda Bark discusses her experiences escaping from Nazi occupied Paris with her two young sons Charles and Maurice.
    Interviewee
    Freuda Bark
    Interviewer
    Charles J. Bark
    Date
    interview:  1979 April 15
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of the Bark family

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    1 sound cassette : analog.

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    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    David Z. Bark donated the oral history interview with his grandmother Freuda Bark to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in October 2017. The donation was made on behalf of the Bark family.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:16:46
    This page:
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