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Oral history interview with Freda Salick

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1993.A.0087.117 | RG Number: RG-50.091.0117

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    Oral history interview with Freda Salick
    Transcript
    Good morning, Freda.
    Good morning.
    I'm Peggy Nathan.
    And this is Freda--
    Salick.
    Salick, S-A-L-I-C-K. Correct?
    Yes.
    Today we are doing this project, which
    is being sponsored by the National
    Council of Jewish Women, Cleveland section.
    Freda, we want to thank you first
    very much for participating in this tremendously big
    wonderful and necessary--
    I'm very happy I can something do.
    I'm glad too.
    This, of course, will be a permanent oral history
    for future generations.
    Freda, the first thing we'd like to learn
    is a little bit about yourself.
    Yes.
    Your name again is Freda Salick.
    Freda Salick.
    OK.
    And at your birth date, Freda?
    Is August 16, 1914.
    1914, that means you're 70 years old.
    Yes.
    You're wonderful.
    Where do you live, Freda?
    I live here in Cleveland on Desota.
    In Cleveland Heights.
    Heights.
    Do you work?
    No.
    Not anymore.
    Not anymore.
    But you are married?
    Yes.
    And tell me, do you have children?
    Yeah, I have two daughters.
    Two grown daughters I'm sure.
    And grandchildren?
    I have one grandchild, yes.
    Are both your daughters married, Freda?
    Yeah, my older daughter, Renee, she was married.
    She is divorced.
    I see.
    And the younger daughter?
    Is not married.
    She's a teacher.
    Oh, how lovely.
    How lovely.
    Yes.
    All right.
    We're going to get into the first section here.
    And we're going to talk a little bit about, if you don't mind,
    what your life was like before the war.
    First of all, I think we better have what your maiden name was.
    Fuchsberg.
    Fuchsberg?
    Fuchsberg.
    Spell it please.
    F-U-C-H-S-B-E-R-G, Fuchsberg.
    Fuchsberg, OK.
    Freda Fuchsberg.
    All right.
    Let's start around 1939 or so.
    Where did you live at that time?
    I was living in Krakow.
    You were living in Krakow.
    Were you born in Krakow, Freda?
    No.
    I am born in Rudki, Poland.
    I see.
    It's a small town from Lemberg.
    I see.
    But in 1939, at the time of the war when the war started--
    When the war I was already, I came for vacation.
    And I was in Boryslow, where I lived in Boryslow.
    I see.
    I see.
    All right, now was "Braslow?"
    Boryslow, B-O-R-I-S-L-O-W, Boryslow.
    I see.
    That's where you were living.
    Yes.
    And you were how old at that time?
    Back--
    In 1939?
    1939, is when I am now 70.
    So you were 25 years old.
    Like that.
    What was the town like where you were living?
    Was it a large town?
    There was an industrial town.
    An industrial town.
    Yeah.
    There are a lot of oil there.
    Were there many Jews there?
    Yes.
    There were lots of Jews.
    I see.
    Were you living with your family at that time?
    I was living with my brother.
    With your brother.
    You had no longer--
    No, I was not living--
    before, I was but my aunt.
    I was raised by my aunt my, father's sister.
    I see.
    Your parents died when you were young.
    Yeah.
    I was three years old when my mother died.
    And I was eight years old when my father died.
    I see.
    So an aunt raised you?
    Yes.
    And in what city?
    In Boryslow.
    I see.
    So then you lived then, when you were living in Boryslow,
    you were with your aunt.
    And who else lived in the household?
    And my aunt, it was my uncle, and she got two sons.
    I see.
    Were you and only-- you were not an only child.
    No, we was five.
    I got two brothers and two sisters, I am third.
    Three girls.
    Yeah, two girls.
    Freda, did that aunt take in all the children
    when your parents died?
    No we got other aunts.
    This was from my father's side.
    So the oldest was with another uncle and the youngest
    was by an other sister.
    You were one of the middle ones.
    Yes.
    You were the middle girl.
    I was the middle.
    How did your aunt and uncle make a living that raised you?
    Oh, they were very wealthy people.
    They were?
    What did your uncle do?
    They got a business.
    They were in business in materials.
    How you call?
    Yeah, the fabrics.
    Fabrics.
    Did they manufacture them or sell them?
    No, they sold them, wholesale and retail.
    Oh.
    They were very, very wealthy people.
    I see.
    Did you have to help much in the household
    when you were growing up there?
    I was very young.
    I went to school and sometime I my aunt
    asked me to come to the store, to help out a little,
    take care that they don't steal over there.
    Sure.
    So you learned a lot about fabrics there.
    Yes.
    Because you told me, and we'll get into that later that
    you became a dressmaker.
    Were you living amongst many Jewish people?
    Were there a lot of Jews where you lived?
    There was.
    Yes.
    How religious were your aunt and uncle?
    Did they raise you to be religious?
    Yes, very religious.
    Orthodox.
    They were Orthodox.
    Can you remember celebrating holidays?
    All the holidays.
    Both Jewish and non-Jewish, I bet?
    Most was the Jewish.
    The Jewish holidays, but they were very religious.
    Very religious, and Saturday all the stores were closed.
    Yes.
    And of course, they belonged to a synagogue.
    Oh, yes.
    And you too--
    Yes.
    --went?
    Did you know anything about or hear anything
    in those growing up days, were they Zionists?
    Did they talk about Palestine or Zionism at all.
    Yes, later on the Polish people.
    They hated the Jews.
    And they said that we should go to Palestine.
    Over there is our place.
    I see.
    Did you grow up with this feeling
    that the Polish people hated you even as a little girl?
    Yes.
    You just knew this?
    I mean, yeah, no we didn't believe how far they will go.
    Well, of course.
    I see.
    What about any political organizations?
    Were your aunt and uncle involved
    in socialism or any other political organization?
    No, no.
    No, they didn't.
    They weren't-- they didn't belong to any groups of any
    kind?
    No.
    No.
    What was the main language spoken in your home.
    Yiddish.
    Yiddish.
    And did they ever speak Polish in the home too
    or mostly Yiddish?
    Mostly Yiddish.
    Yeah.
    Did they have lots of books around?
    Were there books for you to read and so on?
    Sure, yes.
    Was there a theater or a concert hall?
    Yeah, there was a theater, a Jewish,
    when they come they called the Vilna troupe.
    They're from Vilna.
    This was near Warsaw.
    You know the Polish?
    Yes.
    Warsaw and Vilna, yes.
    Yes.
    And they used to come and perform.
    Very often, and the Jewish people they like I say,
    they break the doors to go into the theater.
    They believe in that.
    They were very-- they loved these cultural things.
    Yes.
    And so you went often to that?
    Sure.
    And were there concerts, music?
    Yes.
    And so on, your family was interested in that?
    Yes.
    What other kinds of entertainment
    did your family have?
    Special, they just when there was the holidays,
    they keep having the Shabbat Fridays.
    Always Shabbos.
    Yes.
    They went to the shul, to the temple.
    They were very, very religious, very.
    And in this way I was raised.
    Raised to be a good religious Jew.
    Yes.
    Did your family go on vacations?
    Yes.
    And of course, they took you?
    Yes.
    Where did you go?
    They went to they call Krynic.
    This is where my aunt, she got a very bad heart.
    So this was a place that she went there.
    And then there was Truskawiec they call it in Polish.
    We went there too.
    What were the vacations like?
    Very nice.
    Yes.
    You stayed in a hotel or in a rooming house?
    No, no.
    In a house.
    In a house.
    Yes.
    And everybody just had a good time?
    Yes.
    Was it in the mountains?
    No.
    No, over there, you take a special water that you bathe.
    Oh, it was like a spa.
    Yeah.
    Like a spa.
    OK.
    All right, now let's talk about you yourself in those days.
    All right now, this was we're talking probably
    about the early 1920s right?
    OK, and you grew up as a young girl
    with living in your aunt's house, aunt and uncle.
    You were a healthy young lady.
    Very healthy.
    I never was sick.
    Oh, that's lovely.
    And as you got older did you get any special training?
    Like my aunt, she was very, very religious.
    And she didn't-- she was afraid that I will be in contact with
    boys.
    So she didn't want you to--
    She didn't want me to go anywhere to just finish school.
    And so you never?
    And then later I learned to be a dressmaker.
    I see.
    But during your school years, you
    didn't mix with the boys and girls together?
    No.
    Over there, they were separate.
    Separate schools.
    Girls and separate boys.
    But your brother lived there with you?
    My brother was married.
    When we lost our parents and my brother was 23 years old.
    And you were just a little girl then?
    Yes.
    You said you were three years old when you lost your mother?
    Yes.
    He was--
    He was already an adult almost.
    Oh, yes.
    I see.
    I see.
    Did you have many non-Jewish friends
    when you were growing up?
    We got.
    There was neighbors.
    I see.
    And everybody was friendly?
    Sure.
    As you got older, who taught you to be a dressmaker?
    Where did you learn this?
    I learned in a place where the woman,
    she was a dress-- she how do I call this place?
    But people was working there.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    And my aunt pay her.
    Oh, it was like a school.
    Yes.
    You were an apprentice maybe.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Now, other people, well they didn't pay.
    They worked there three years.
    I see.
    Now, like my aunt, she did pay her.
    I think I remember how much she paid $200 at this time.
    And I was very capable, and I worked one year.
    And I already--
    You learned everything then in one year's time.
    Yeah.
    And how old were you at that time, Freda?
    You had finished school.
    Yeah.
    You'd finished-- did you finish high school gymnasium
    I think they called it?
    Yeah.
    And so you were 18 or 19 years old already.
    OK, now that takes us up to the early '30s.
    Yes.
    1920 would be 1934, so you had learned to be a dressmaker,
    and then what happened to you?
    I went.
    I was in Boryslow.
    You left.
    And later, when I learned my profession
    I wanted to go to see bigger cities.
    So I went to Lemberg.
    What they call Lwow.
    Call it what?
    Lwow is in Polish.
    What does that mean?
    Lemberg.
    Oh, Lemberg.
    Yeah.
    Lemberg is the town we call it today.
    It's known as Lemberg today.
    It was called Lwow in Polish?
    Yes.
    I see.
    And how far was that from Boryslow?
    Oh about I think three, four hours.
    I see.
    You went yourself?
    You were--
    I got an uncle in there.
    I see.
    And I lived with my aunt and uncle--
    And you went there.
    --and cousin.
    Did you get a job there?
    Yes.
    In what kind of a place?
    A big place.
    Was it a--
    A salon they called it.
    Where they're making clothes for people.
    This was before the time when we could go to a store
    and pick a dress off a rack.
    Everything was handmade.
    Yeah.
    Right?
    In Poland, they call konfekcja.
    You didn't use this in Poland.
    Everything was handmade.
    I see.
    Yes.
    [FRENCH] they say it in French, [FRENCH],,
    is when you come in and they make for you special.
    Couture.
    Yes.
    Right.
    All right.
    So you had this.
    Then you were living with your aunt and uncle.
    You were in your mid 20s.
    Yes, and I was young, yes.
    Yes.
    And you were working and living there.
    Yes.
    And at that time were you going out with boys?
    I did belong to--
    I got a cousin there, and she did talk me in
    to belong to the Histadrut.
    I see.
    So there were Jewish organizations.
    Oh, yes.
    And you made friends there, and so on?
    Yes.
    OK.
    Now you stayed there how long?
    I stayed there during the summer.
    Just that one summer?
    Just one summer.
    Do you remember what year that was, Freda?
    I cannot remember.
    All right, at the end of that summer, where did you go?
    I got cousin from a little town.
    And she lost her husband, and she got a sister in Boryslow.
    And she talked me into go over there.
    This is called Dobromil, a little town.
    And she said I can work by myself.
    Make clothing for ladies that live in the town.
    Yes.
    I see.
    So you went there?
    I went there.
    And I stayed there, and I got a good time.
    I was very popular there, very.
    Well, in a small town when you come from a bigger town,
    so you were popular.
    You knew everything.
    You were the sophisticated lady.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    So I stayed there too a short time.
    I didn't like to be there.
    It was too a small town.
    You were used to living in a city.
    Yes.
    So then from there where did you go?
    To Krakow.
    All yourself?
    You went by yourself to Krakow?
    No, my cousin got another cousin.
    And she said, why should I be in a small town
    when am I am a good dressmaker?
    I should go to Krakow, and over there I will--
    Do well.
    Yes.
    So I went with her to Krakow.
    I see.
    And I lived with her.
    OK, so then you lived in Krakow.
    You got a job as a dressmaker.
    Oh, yes.
    I did make good money there.
    You were like a designer?
    Did you design clothing yourself too.
    Yes.
    When you say you're a dressmaker doesn't sound so great.
    But when you say you're a designer--
    Oh, yes.
    --it sounds even, that you're very capable.
    Yes.
    All right, so then you're in Krakow.
    And we're now up to maybe what year?
    This was 1938.
    And you're living in Krakow.
    I was living in Krakow till 1939.
    And I went back to Boryslow for vacation.
    I see.
    To see my family.
    At this time there was they come out the war.
    The beginning of the war?
    There was no warning.
    You had no idea.
    No.
    When I came, there was the war come out I think in September.
    Yes.
    Yes,
    1939 September.
    1939 in September.
    The Nazis marched into Poland.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    And I came in September, before September that was I
    think in August I came to see my family.
    I see.
    For vacation.
    So you were in--
    Boryslow.
    Boryslow.
    And what happened?
    I was short time, and then all of a sudden, we saw airplanes.
    I see.
    And we did come out.
    And we saw the war begin.
    Did you have any inkling that things were not right?
    Did your family know anything?
    Nothing.
    Nothing.
    Your aunts, your uncles?
    Nothing at all.
    Nothing, my brother I was living with--
    I was with my brother.
    Your brother then was maybe in his 30s or more.
    My brother was the oldest one.
    He was 15 years older than me.
    I see.
    Yes.
    OK.
    And he, we did come.
    He got a restaurant, a big restaurant in Boryslow.
    I see.
    And we did hear the airplanes.
    So we come out outside.
    And we looked up and all of a sudden
    they start throwing the bombs.
    Really?
    Yeah.
    That was a beautiful nice day this time.
    And you had, nobody had any warning.
    There had been nothing in the newspapers
    that maybe things weren't good.
    No, nothing at all.
    I see.
    Yes.
    So you ran inside.
    We ran inside.
    And we start to--
    we didn't believe.
    We didn't believe this happened.
    Well, you had no idea who was dropping the bombs?
    In the beginning, in the beginning we didn't know.
    Later, we already know.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    That the Germans, Poland was sold.
    Took three, four days and they got Poland.
    They lost the war to the Germans.
    When the war started then, then what happened?
    What did you and your brother and his family do?
    We stay.
    We stay in home.
    But we didn't know, and we didn't
    believe what Hitler will do.
    He just was like--
    But you did not-- you decided not to go back to Krakow.
    We couldn't go already.
    Already everything was no.
    Right away, quick.
    You mean within a few days even, you could not.
    When the Nazis come in, the Germans
    give the Poles and the Ukraine two days and two nights,
    they can do what they want to.
    I see.
    And so they want to, they took people out the Jews
    from their houses.
    And they I don't know how to say this.
    And there was through the street they pull them, in one place
    and they kill him, with sticks, with hammers,
    with all kinds of--
    This is the Polish people, not the Nazis.
    No, not the Nazis.
    When the Nazis come in, there was
    first day and the second day.
    Two days, they say, do what you want.
    Yes.
    So--
    They killed 500 Jews.
    In the town of Boryslow.
    Boryslow.
    Were any of your family affected?
    Yes, my brother.
    What happened to your brother?
    He was very badly beaten up, and they killed
    my brother's father-in-law.
    And beside this, they killed a lot of neighbors in this town.
    Well of course, these were the Polish people themselves.
    They knew which were the Jews?
    Sure.
    But prior to that you had been friendly
    with some of these people.
    Very friendly.
    They was customers.
    Like I say, my brother got a big restaurant and a bar.
    And they was his customers.
    They come in, in his home and they took him out.
    And they beat him up.
    Can you imagine?
    Did any non-Jews try to help you or other Jews at that time?
    Were there any Poles that were kind that wouldn't do this?
    Very, very little.
    They say they don't have two hats.
    And they cannot give.
    So they have one hat, they cannot give them hat away.
    No.
    OK, then how did your life change?
    What happened then?
    How long did you stay in the house?
    You had to nurse your brother back to health.
    Did he survived this beating?
    He survived the beating.
    Did he have children?
    He got one son.
    And the son was OK?
    Yes.
    And then what changes came about then?
    Then the Nazis, they started to look around after the Jews.
    Look for them.
    Look for them.
    First, they take all from the World War
    First, the how you call this?
    The veterans.
    The veterans.
    Yes.
    And they took him.
    They say they no need it to live.
    You mean from the First World War?
    Yes.
    I see.
    All the veterans.
    They were older at that time.
    They was older and they were people that I don't know,
    they were cripples.
    They took him.
    That was the first.
    They went first.
    The Jewish veterans.
    The Jewish veterans.
    Yes.
    And then they started with older people.
    I see.
    Yes.
    And then--
    Did they close your brother's restaurant?
    Did he continue with his business?
    He continued about two months.
    To the time they arrived and they took everything.
    They took over the restaurant.
    Yeah there was-- this was in 1939.
    And then I don't know how long they were from September,
    till June of 1940.
    And they started, he make up with Ribbentrop.
    He was the minister from the Germans, and they make up--
    Who do you mean?
    Who made up?
    The Polish?
    The German the Nazis, the Germans with the Russians, they
    make up and they did come out.
    Where I came from this was half from Pole, this was Galicia.
    Galicia, yes.
    So the Germans went out and the Russian come in June.
    I see.
    I see.
    And they stayed till 1941.
    Oh the Germans, the Nazis, left then and the Russians came in?
    Yes.
    Into Boryslow.
    Yes.
    Where you lived.
    They halved, yeah, to Galicia?
    Were they as bad as the Nazis?
    Did they treat the Jews so terrible too?
    They treat everybody the same.
    You have to work very hard.
    Both the Jews and the Poles?
    Yes, and the Ukrainians.
    They all, everybody must work.
    Without work you couldn't exist.
    Were you near the Ukraine?
    Yes.
    Was Boryslow in the Ukraine at that--
    This is, yeah, a lot of Ukraine there.
    I see.
    I see.
    All right.
    So what kind of work did they make you do?
    I did work in my profession.
    I was working as a dressmaker.
    In a big, they make there was a factory.
    And I was the director.
    And what did they make in that factory?
    Oh, everything.
    From military things to women's to men's, everything.
    And you were the director of the whole factory?
    Yes, and I got 30 people.
    In the beginning they say I will have eight,
    but you work over there eight hours.
    And later on they got me 30 people.
    So I did work 16 hours.
    Did they pay you?
    Yeah.
    They took away one 3/3 they took away.
    They pay me.
    I got 500 rubles.
    And they took away 350.
    So I got 150.
    They took away 2/3, yes.
    You mean like taxes or whatever?
    Yeah, for they say that you must pay for the government.
    Yes.
    So you were still living with your brother and his family.
    Yes.
    And what kind of work did they make your brother do?
    No, my brother got the restaurant.
    Oh, he still had that.
    I thought they took it away.
    They took away.
    But he was still managing it.
    He didn't make money from it, but he had to run it?
    Yes.
    It wasn't his anymore, is that it?
    No, but just what he makes, he works three months.
    And later, they put in so much taxes, the Russians,
    that everything he sold.
    And didn't cover the taxes.
    Can you imagine?
    All right, now so you're working then in this factory.
    And we're up to 1941.
    Right?
    June.
    In June 1941.
    And then what happened?
    The Germans come back.
    The Germans came back.
    Yes.
    Did they did they make all the Russians leave then?
    They left.
    The Russians left.
    The Russians left.
    They make up this.
    They got--
    That's the way they arranged this.
    Yes.
    So the Germans came back and occupied the town of Boryslow?
    So they say Galicia will belong back to the Germans.
    And then half from Poland will go back to the Russians.
    I see.
    So now you're living under the Nazis.
    Yes.
    Are you still continuing to work in the factory?
    No.
    What happened?
    No factory over there.
    No they started with the Jews.
    What did they start?
    what happened?
    What did they do?
    What did they do?
    They like I say, they keep first they took the invalids.
    Yes.
    All right, that I understand.
    But I want to know what happened to you.
    This is when the Germans came back
    and the Russians went back home.
    And now you're in this factory.
    And then that's finished.
    Yeah.
    This everything was finished what was with the Russians.
    I see.
    And we was living, later we was living together.
    I was with the sisters.
    When this started, there was the first--
    I don't know how to say, the rafles.
    Every time they come and they took out the people
    from their homes.
    And they put them in the big trains.
    A transport.
    Yeah.
    Yes?
    So they start there was the first.
    And later the second, but the second time they took my uncle.
    Yes.
    And my uncle went to the-- he used
    to go very early morning to the shul to the temple
    and they took him.
    He never come back.
    Oh, he went to shul and never came back.
    So you knew that he was taken.
    Yes.
    So everybody--
    We never know exactly what they do with the people.
    They always say they take him for work.
    And that was not true.
    They did lie to us.
    I understand.
    But you never heard from them?
    No.
    Later, we went together.
    I am with my two sisters.
    With those two sisters we were three girls.
    They took you?
    No.
    They not took by the second time.
    We was living-- I wasn't with my brother anymore.
    I see.
    No.
    We was three together.
    Where were you living then?
    In the home where my uncle was living.
    I see.
    And your aunt was still living?
    She was there with you.
    No.
    No.
    The aunt what she raised me, they took her too.
    They took her too.
    And you never heard from her.
    You don't know what happened, really?
    No, no.
    All right.
    So you're there with your three sisters in this house.
    Yes.
    How do you get food?
    This is the big problem.
    So we got friends from the Polish people.
    Sometimes they come, they come and we
    exchange for our clothes.
    I see.
    You trade with them back and forth.
    Yes, In the beginning what we got some gold or something,
    we gave this before the German took away from us.
    So you can give them something that was worth a lot of money.
    And they gave you a couple of pounds of flour.
    I see.
    Sure.
    You could have jewelry or gold coins, did you have?
    Yeah.
    And you had jewelry.
    And you gave this to the Polish people for to eat for today.
    Yes.
    Yeah, they took away, was worth 50 times the amount.
    Right.
    Now how long did you live under those conditions
    with your sisters?
    Here we live for a couple of months.
    A couple of months like that.
    Now do you remember what year this was?
    No this was 1941.
    This was 1941.
    '41 and '42.
    I see.
    And you're struggling to stay alive by getting a little food?
    Yeah.
    You're very frightened.
    Very frightened, in the meantime,
    the Germans, the Nazis they start
    to look around for the Jews.
    And did they find you?
    Yeah, in the beginning, they didn't find me.
    And later on, they find me.
    How did they find you?
    So I was working.
    You were still working as a dressmaker.
    I was working.
    Yeah, and this was already in 1942, come to '43.
    What were your sisters doing?
    My sister, we got a friend and she took her.
    She took her into her house.
    Yes.
    We pay a lot of money to try to--
    a Polish friend, a non-Jewish friend, to save your sister?
    Yeah, the oldest.
    The oldest sister.
    She was older than you?
    Yeah, she was the oldest.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    And the younger, what she died not long ago, we was together.
    I see.
    So now you're just with your younger sister.
    Yeah.
    And this is 1942.
    Is she working?
    She was not working.
    No?
    No.
    And you were in 1942, that made you
    let's see you were born in 1914, you were already
    about 28 years old.
    All right.
    And you're in Boryslow.
    Yes.
    And you're trying to not let the Nazis find you.
    OK.
    Now what happens?
    They do find you, though.
    Yeah, we already was in another place.
    But they didn't allow to be in this house
    where my uncle lived.
    They made you leave.
    We leave to another place.
    Yes.
    A nice house?
    No, no, no.
    Was the uncle's house a nice house?
    Yeah, my uncle, what he got, he was in business too.
    So he had a nice home.
    Oh, yeah.
    And it was a modern home with plumbing and so on?
    You had an indoor bathroom?
    No.
    No.
    At this time in Poland you didn't have.
    I didn't know.
    That's why I asked.
    In the early '40s even, there was no indoor plumbing?
    No, no.
    My brother got plumbing.
    He got because he got a restaurant.
    I see.
    So he had plumbing for the restaurant.
    And a telephone, it was very hard to have
    a telephone at this time.
    So then you and your sister had to leave this,
    go to a worse house, a house that wasn't as nice.
    A house but you live in this time with other people already.
    In one room.
    In one room with other people?
    Yes.
    They knew you were Jewish, and you
    were living with other Jews.
    Yes.
    And how long did you stay under those conditions?
    A short time.
    And what happened then?
    Later on, they took my sister.
    She went, she went somewhere and I don't know
    how this happened with her.
    Now she did come out and they caught her.
    They caught her.
    And took her away to Plaszow.
    This was where there was a concentration camp.
    Plaszow.
    Yeah.
    This is near Krakow, near Auschwitz.
    Did you know where they were taking her?
    No.
    Then how did you find out that she was there?
    Later on.
    I see.
    Later on.
    All right, so then you're alone.
    You don't know what happened to your sister.
    No.
    And you're living alone in this room.
    Then what happened to you?
    Then I--
    You're still working?
    I was still working.
    Were you working for the Germans?
    Yes.
    I see.
    OK.
    And then later, they took us.
    They make a ghetto from the all small--
    where we were small houses, rooms, and they make a ghetto.
    Do they put a wall around the ghetto?
    No, where was over there the Germans
    was over there around this ghetto.
    They stood there.
    So that it was--
    Nobody could go out or come in.
    So you had to stay in there?
    Yes.
    You couldn't go out for work, for anything.
    No.
    For food?
    Nothing.
    so where did the food come from for the people in the ghetto?
    There was people what they organize
    and when you was working in a forest, let's say,
    near other people, you can trade in something and bring in--
    I see.
    --with you.
    But those people could go out of the ghetto
    if they were working.
    Yes.
    I see.
    When you was working you could go out in the morning
    and come in the evening.
    Did you go out-- did those people have
    to go out in a group?
    Were they guarded?
    In groups.
    In groups.
    And they were guarded?
    They was guarded.
    They were working then for the Germans only.
    Yes, yes.
    Not to earn money for themselves.
    No, we never earn money.
    I see.
    And then they would find Poles who would trade again.
    Yes.
    Maybe a little food they would hide it to bring it in.
    Is that it?
    Yes.
    I see.
    All right now, were you working at that time
    or were you just confined to the ghetto?
    There was times when the Germans, they ask,
    well somebody knows who can sew.
    Yes.
    They send me there.
    And I went over there to work.
    Outside of the ghetto to sew uniforms or whatever.
    Yes.
    And they gave you food.
    They gave you, I remember how the slice of bread
    was something like paper.
    They gave you two pieces for working all day long.
    Oh, that was your pay.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    There must be a big fish, but otherwise they
    wouldn't take out a person and take her over there
    to sit there and work for them.
    Right.
    Sometimes they took me for to work
    for the secretary for the mayor's home.
    Yes.
    And to work for them for a couple of days.
    Yeah, to make clothing and so on?
    Yes.
    And they already, they didn't pay me.
    Now, she gave me food.
    I see.
    Yeah, there was times that I couldn't eat over there.
    I couldn't swallow when I know that my family is there
    without food.
    So I take everything home.
    You hid it on you.
    I hid it, and there was a day when there was not
    allowed to come out on the street
    where I was working for the secretary from the mayor.
    And she told me that I can go.
    She was thinking she is somebody.
    And I got with me the all the pack what she gave me the food.
    And beside this, I always got with me papers,
    that I am not a Jew.
    Where did you get these papers?
    Through somebody, through the ghetto.
    From the ghetto who they made them up.
    They-- what do they call?
    Counterfeit papers.
    Something, yes.
    I didn't look like a Jew.
    So I could have this.
    So you had light hair and blue eyes.
    And besides this I got money with me too.
    We always, the three sisters, we got money.
    Something will happen, we can pay him off.
    A lot of money, you had?
    A lot of money a couple hundred dollar each.
    Always had that with you nobody went into your purse
    or went into look--
    I didn't got in a purse.
    I got--
    Sewn into your clothing.
    Yes.
    And when I come out, all of a sudden, a German stood.
    There was a Schutz police and Reiter police.
    The Reiter was on horses.
    And the Schutz police was walking.
    So he come out.
    And he said, what I'm doing here?
    And I say I just was working for her.
    Her name was Frank.
    And he says, he asked me, do you have money in German?
    And I say, no.
    I didn't want to tell him.
    I was thinking he will take the money.
    He will take me.
    Right.
    And he says, oh, you have too march.
    Go raus.
    So I walk it was a very long street.
    And he took me on the police there.
    And they come out, a szpion, and they took me in.
    And I got--
    To the police station.
    Yeah.
    And I got over there, here, I got the food what
    I'm not allowed to have this.
    They will ask me how it come to me.
    And I got the money, the papers, and everything.
    Then-- frightened to the death.
    And I took all of this under, I stood under a table,
    put this stuff.
    And one German started to ask me, why I was walking there.
    That was not allowed.
    And I say, I kept talking that she told me that I can go.
    Yes.
    And if somebody will ask me, I used
    to say that I was working for her.
    Yes.
    And he says, she not have nothing to do with this,
    have the right.
    And then later he asked me I have money.
    I was thinking maybe I should say.
    And I got over there 500 zlotys.
    And he asked me how I have.
    I told him that she gave me to--
    Pay for the--
    --something to buy for her, for what I was sewing.
    I need it.
    And I gave him the 500, and he gave me change 450.
    He say I have to pay 50 zlotys for this.
    A fine.
    Fine.
    For walking on the street.
    No, he told me to count three times.
    And I count.
    And now he gave me back the money.
    And then I took my belongings, what
    I got and out from over there I fly, almost break my neck.
    And he all of a sudden, he the same German to me,
    he says he wants to accompany.
    It was already dark.
    He said that nobody will attack me.
    So you don't want to go to the ghetto.
    Yes, no.
    He accompanied to the ghetto me.
    But then he knew you were Jewish.
    Sure, he knew I'm Jewish.
    So he was really nice.
    Yes.
    And he accompanied to the ghetto.
    And he [? rife ?] me the hand.
    He gave me.
    He says, first when I want to do something,
    I have to think first and then do.
    This in German.
    He gave you advice.
    Yes.
    So he was very-- he was a nice man.
    He was.
    I don't know what happened.
    You didn't know his name or anything?
    Oh, no.
    But he was a very nice-- he was a German?
    Yes he was a Schutz police from the German, a police.
    You see, he had a heart?
    Something was yeah, that's what I cannot forget.
    Of course not.
    I came home and my family, they was thinking I'm lost.
    They killed me.
    I did go out in the morning and I didn't return.
    OK, so.
    Ah, well what a terrible experience.
    Tell me, did you go out again?
    Yes.
    Next day--
    Nothing frightened you.
    Aren't you something?
    No, they kept me always in home that I am very energetic,
    I was.
    When I was young I got a lot of energy in me.
    Allergies, yes.
    Energy, not allergy.
    Oh, energy you were energetic.
    Yes, I'm sorry.
    I misunderstood.
    I was very energetic.
    And they said I was the only.
    And they always kept me this my family they know this.
    And then this is what I got, an incident it doesn't teach me.
    And I took out my armband, what I got a yellow,
    and I went to buy milk.
    They didn't want to sell to Jews milk.
    Sure.
    You were at that time already wearing the armband
    all the time.
    Oh, yes.
    All the time.
    But you didn't wear it when you went to work at the--
    No.
    When you left.
    I took it off.
    OK, fine.
    Yes.
    So then you went to buy milk the next day.
    In the morning, I went to buy milk.
    And I took off my armband.
    I don't know what happened.
    That something from the woman what they got the milk,
    they recognized me.
    And all of a sudden comes out a German.
    And he asked why they--
    he didn't know that I'm a Jew.
    Now, they tell him that I am a Jew and I come buy the milk.
    And he says to me, halt, that I should stood.
    And I start to run.
    I didn't listen to him.
    And I run.
    There are a lot of houses empty over there.
    Nobody lived there, and he after me.
    He went after me.
    And finally, he started to ask did they saw me.
    And they was afraid.
    They were afraid he will do something to them.
    Now all of a sudden come out a Jewish policeman.
    You know there was a Judenrat there called.
    And he was a Jewish policeman.
    And he was talking to him.
    I didn't do nothing.
    I just want to buy the milk.
    And I have over there a sick sister.
    And I needed the milk.
    And I don't know what happened.
    He let me go.
    And I come back home with the milk.
    When my sister--
    When you bought milk at that time,
    tell me, did you have to take a container or was it in--
    Yes.
    You took your own container.
    Yeah.
    And they just poured the milk in.
    Yes.
    It wasn't pasteurized.
    No, no, no.
    Not treated milk.
    No, at this time, no.
    Just--
    Just a little bucket of milk.
    Yes.
    And I bring the milk home.
    How much did a little bucket of milk cost?
    Do you remember.
    A couple I don't know maybe a zloty.
    How much is a zloty worth?
    A zloty, that's like a few pennies or more?
    A quarter?
    No, a zloty was 100 pennies.
    Oh like a dollar.
    Yes.
    Like a dollar.
    Yes.
    I see.
    OK.
    And I went, I run home, and I bring the milk.
    My sister and the people were there living, maybe
    six people or eight people in one room, you see,
    and they look on me.
    And I nothing.
    You see?
    Did you tell him what happened?
    Sure.
    They said, I bet they didn't want--
    I shouldn't do.
    Sure, I shouldn't go out.
    I shouldn't do this.
    And I did.
    And you still went.
    And I still went.
    And now after--
    Were you brave or were you foolish, Freda?
    I don't know.
    Well, you survived it.
    I did.
    You see I survived, after 6 million Jews.
    And then there was already the six--
    I don't know how to call what they come and they
    say the German, they want that the Judenrat
    deliver let's say 1,000 people.
    Like a roundup.
    A roundup there was the sixth roundup.
    The sixth.
    Six times.
    Now they want 1,000 Jews.
    They want 1,000 Jews.
    And they went from house to house,
    and they took women, children.
    They took who they can.
    There was doctors what they took.
    There was the time where they took women and children.
    And the men, they was thinking, she will go work.
    He will go work.
    They still didn't know what happened to people.
    No.
    And then when I did smell out something
    there will be something.
    So I took my sister, and I cover her something
    with a friend in a little place and I put in something.
    I don't know what was over there,
    that they cannot know there is somebody lived there.
    How old was your sister?
    She was older than me.
    You hid your older sister?
    Yes.
    What happened?
    With a friend.
    And you covered them with some--
    Yes, with something, whatever.
    Like blankets, you mean or something?
    Blankets wood.
    I don't know that they will--
    In a corner, or what, in something?
    In yeah, like a cover, like--
    Like a cupboard?
    Yes.
    I see.
    You knew they were coming.
    Or you just felt it.
    I felt they will come.
    They know left one house.
    They break the doors, the windows, and everything.
    So they came to your house?
    Yeah, and the friend, she was a friend her mother was sick
    and she was in bed.
    They couldn't.
    And they come out.
    They was in this house and they shoot her.
    Oh dear.
    The girl's mother.
    They shoot her.
    Yeah.
    I did come out.
    And I went to work.
    I was working.
    I got an R. This means [NON-ENGLISH]..
    What does it mean this?
    Means that I was working for the military.
    Oh I see.
    So you mean at that time, the sister and her friend
    were hidden.
    And they took you?
    Know.
    And I did come out.
    I went to work.
    I was thinking when I have the R,
    so they will not do nothing for me.
    I see.
    I was wrong.
    Oh.
    When they start, when they come this time,
    they no look what I have.
    I am working, not working.
    They needed you.
    They needed 1,000 people.
    They took me.
    Was it the Judenrat that said take her, or was--
    Not the Judenrat.
    They didn't say nothing.
    I see.
    They just took me and I went there,
    and there was over there 1,000 people.
    Where did they take you?
    That was in a place where they was in a cinema, no this is--
    A movie theater?
    A movie theater.
    Yes.
    Well, they come.
    They kept 200 people normally.
    They was place for 200 people.
    I see.
    Yes.
    And they put in 1,000 people.
    This was like a movie theater.
    Yes, a movie theater.
    So you're all just squeezed in there.
    Squeezed like herrings.
    Like herrings.
    Yes.
    What they did when they saw an old person
    they told him come out, and later they
    told them to go back.
    He couldn't go back.
    Everything was so squeezed, so they beat him up.
    Oh.
    So they was with other people was so tragic that they
    took my sister-in-law's sister.
    She was hidden.
    And they found her in a house.
    And you're there in with this whole crowd?
    Yes.
    And she saw me.
    And she says to me, Freda, like I say, I was very energetic.
    And she said Freda, and she was with her daughter,
    a beautiful girl, a red head.
    And she says to me her name was Ida.
    And she says, Freda, take Ida with you.
    I know you will go out.
    I know you.
    And she did not want to leave her mother.
    She stayed with her mother and they took her.
    And another girl was close to me.
    And like I say, I was working for the girl for the Frank.
    And she told me, Freda, if they ever take you,
    I will try to take you out to help you.
    And she did.
    I did come out.
    How did you get out?
    They come out with a piece of paper.
    And they call my name.
    They called two times my name.
    Now who was this person who said she would get you out?
    Who?
    The person was a secretary.
    Oh, the one that you were doing the dressmaking for?
    Yes.
    So they called your name and you got out of there?
    Yes.
    I was, let's say, there was maybe
    I don't know a little like maybe 50 people.
    And my friends they say, Freda, come.
    You see, we have where to go.
    And I say no I will not go.
    And I look around like a rat, to look for a place
    where I can hide.
    To get out.
    To get out.
    You couldn't.
    And they when they call my name, and I did come out.
    I was like a wild animal.
    I can imagine.
    Torn everything, my clothes everything.
    They kept us over there all day long.
    And everything was torn.
    Yes.
    All right, let's stop for a few minutes now, Freda.
    And we'll take a little break and then we'll come back.
    OK.

    There is no transcript available for this track

    I'm Peggy Nathan.
    Today we are interviewing Freda Salick, a Holocaust survivor.
    The project is sponsored by the National
    Council of Jewish Women, Cleveland section.
    OK, Freda, we're back at the point.
    We'll pick up our story, your story, at the point
    where you left Auschwitz and apparently the Germans are
    afraid the war is coming to an end,
    and they want to get people away from there.
    And they put you in a boxcar again, a train.
    And they take you where?
    To Kratzau.
    This is a town in Czechoslovakia.
    Again to Czechoslovakia.
    OK.
    Now what happens there?
    Then they got--
    You said it was much nicer barracks,
    everything was much nicer.
    Yes, it was smaller, less people there.
    You knew some of the people from Auschwitz, of course?
    Or were they strangers again?
    I think they were strangers.
    Freda, how old were you at this point?
    That was in '45.
    '44, toward the end of the war.
    Really didn't know it was the end of the war, '45.
    So you're already 31 years old.
    Yes.
    OK.
    Now what do you do in this camp?
    Will you spell the name of this camp?
    Kratzau?
    Kratzau.
    This is I think it is a C, a C or maybe a K, a K, an R, a U,
    will be Kru--
    zau.
    T-Z-O-W maybe.
    Yes.
    This is in Czechoslovakia.
    It's another concentration camp.
    This was--
    A work camp?
    A work camp.
    A work camp.
    I see.
    They had over there Germans, the Nazis around.
    Yeah.
    They were still guarding you?
    Sure, guard, oh yeah.
    You still had to come out for roll call
    in the morning, every morning?
    Yes.
    They took every time in the morning we stood,
    and then we went to work.
    They guard us.
    What kind of work did you do in this camp, Kratzau?
    In this camp, in Kratzau, we did all kind of work.
    We work in a factory for the Germans, the military mask, gas
    masks.
    We sew over there something for them.
    And then they took us for the work for the Germans.
    There was a canteen.
    There was over there a place where the German people
    went over there to eat.
    I see.
    A canteen.
    A canteen.
    Yes.
    Yes, and you had to work in the kitchen?
    No, we didn't allow to be there.
    We just they gave us the chores for the potatoes and a cover
    they kept.
    The worst thing was over there, they got apples.
    And the smell from the apples.
    Oh rotten apples are terrible.
    It was so hungry, and we couldn't touch this.
    Oh, and it was wonderful, a wonderful apple smell.
    Now potatoes over there, they are so big,
    maybe one potato weighed 2 pounds.
    Oh really?
    And you had to prepare the food.
    We have to take out the rotten potatoes, and throw them out.
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    And did you steal some of that food maybe to eat?
    If you could.
    Yes.
    We did.
    Once they caught us.
    Oh, did they punish you?
    With food.
    They didn't give you food.
    All day long.
    They take away your food, your portion from the food.
    So this already was early 1945.
    Yes.
    So you're there for how long, Freda?
    We were there till a couple of months.
    And then what happened?
    When we were in Kratzau we was working there
    in all the kind of places.
    And once I came home after work, and there
    was over there a place where you can wash yourself, a shower.
    I run over there, and I saw was over there warm water.
    Now there was already the time that you was not
    allowed to be there.
    So I ran to the barrack and take something, a bucket
    and the water.
    First time you had warm water in years, I bet.
    Yes.
    I took the water and the bucket and I ran.
    This I remember.
    It was winter time.
    It was snow over there, very cold.
    And I went with the bucket with the water in my room,
    in the barrack.
    Take off my clothes.
    And I start to wash myself, the body.
    Then comes in the lageralteste, the German Nazi.
    And she caught me.
    And she said, Freda, that's not allowed.
    Not allowed to make yourself clean.
    Clean and to take the water from over there.
    What she did with me, she didn't let me dry me up.
    Now how I was naked, wet.
    She took me with the water, with the bucket.
    It was far.
    We have to walk maybe, I don't know maybe 25 minutes,
    and to take out the water from the bucket over there.
    I beg her, let me put something on.
    I will catch pneumonia.
    She said, no.
    I have to go like I am, naked with the bucket,
    and [NON-ENGLISH],, put out the water from the bucket.
    This is what I will never forget.
    Of course not.
    And I went home.
    I didn't cough once.
    God was taking care of you.
    This was the my biggest thing when I was in the Kratzau
    what she took me naked.
    In the cold.
    In cold.
    She was dressed beautifully, warmly.
    Yes.
    Next day--
    This is maybe the winter of '45?
    Yes.
    OK.
    And next day she took us, you know what she did?
    There was over there not enough animals,
    when they needed to shop the groceries for the people
    where they got the canteen to prepare the food for them.
    So they took people, 10 people to a wagon.
    And they put them like horses with strings,
    to pull the wagon.
    There was in the front four people or six and in the back.
    Were you in that line sometimes?
    Yes.
    To pull the wagon.
    To act like an animal?
    Yes.
    And she comes to me and she says, Freda,
    that I don't pull enough.
    I say, I don't have the force.
    You couldn't say that you are sick.
    Don't have the strength.
    Yes.
    And I say I am cold.
    I cannot do this.
    Did they give you any other clothing?
    No.
    Just the same rags that you had.
    Rags, yes.
    And I pull, we pulled the wagon in place of the animals.
    So an animal was worth more than a human being.
    Right, yes.
    Yeah.
    So all right, this is then getting
    through the winter of '45.
    What else happened in that camp for you?
    In Kratzau?
    Yes.
    We was over there in the barrack.
    And when they hear and saw that they
    are losing the war, the Germans, they were every day,
    every hour worse to us.
    And they say they will put mines under around the house.
    They would put what?
    They explode the house out with us.
    I see.
    I don't know how it happened.
    The Russians were near already Kratzau.
    And they from the airplane they with piece of papers notes.
    Dropped papers.
    Dropped, and they say if something will happen,
    the whole town will go if they will touch us.
    Oh, they wanted the Germans--
    They
    Warn the Germans--
    Not to kill, do any more killing.
    --not to kill us, and not to do nothing to us.
    I see.
    They told them.
    And they--
    These were pamphlets that came down from the airplanes.
    Yes, from the airplanes.
    And they take away the stuff from the barracks.
    It was written in German, so the Germans
    could understand this language.
    Yes.
    So what did they do?
    They right away, they changed clothes,
    all the Germans where they was with us around the barracks.
    Yes.
    They chose, they put in civilian clothes.
    They run away.
    They left us.
    They left you alone without any guards anymore.
    They were afraid they would be killed.
    Yeah.
    And in this way we was liberated from the Russians.
    Who liberated you?
    The Russians, the Soviets.
    Do you remember the day?
    What day was that?
    That was in May 8.
    May 8, 1945.
    Yeah, May 8.
    All right, the Russians liberated you.
    We was liberated.
    You so what did they do with you?
    What they do?
    We was in there, they bring in food.
    Most of the people--
    Were they kind?
    Oh, yes.
    They were very kind people.
    The people there was something the people faint.
    Of course.
    They die.
    From overeating.
    From overeating.
    We always said we want to have a soup for the spoon that
    will stick and stay in this.
    And we want to have two or three loaves of bread,
    that we have enough to eat.
    Now people were so hungry they overate.
    They got typhus.
    They were all.
    I was sick too.
    I was very sick.
    And I did come out.
    Tell me, how long did you stay in this camp
    then after you were liberated?
    Did they move you right away?
    No.
    No, we stay in the camp.
    And they start organizing us to go back.
    To go back to your homes.
    Yeah, and we couldn't.
    The war was going on there.
    And the soldiers with all the things.
    And first, we were there maybe, I
    don't know, a month over there.
    And we were sick.
    Did they bring--
    The Germans, later on, they did come out
    and they gave you bread.
    They gave you soup.
    So, you never saw them.
    The Germans?
    They never do.
    The Germans, they were living in Kratzau.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    They did bring you something to eat.
    But you were there then till when?
    We were there I think the month of May,
    took us three or four weeks to come back to Krakow.
    Then how did you get back to Krakow?
    With the train.
    Did you have any papers, you had money?
    We didn't have nothing.
    Well, how did you get on the train.
    I don't know.
    Maybe the Russians, they just got us on the train.
    All right.
    You went back to Krakow, and you're
    looking for family, right?
    Right?
    And do you find anybody?
    I didn't find nobody.
    And they did-- it was there a committee, the Jewish already
    in Krakow.
    Well they prepare for the haftling,
    for the people that did come in.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    So we got over there room.
    I don't know for four or six people.
    They are people you could work.
    Now they said I work enough.
    I don't want to walk anymore.
    I want to relax.
    Right.
    Now when the people--
    But you're still very thin.
    Yeah.
    And you're sick and you look terrible.
    I look maybe 90 years old, so I look.
    And you're still weighing 70 pounds.
    I weigh less than 70.
    Yeah, 69.
    How could you move, you wonder?
    It's a wonder.
    And they, the minute they know I was maybe two days,
    they know that I am a dressmaker,
    they come to me to make them something.
    They didn't got what to wear.
    I don't know if they bought it, they got.
    And they pay me.
    And the first time for a couple of years,
    I feel money in my hand.
    I was a human being.
    Right, right.
    And your hair is growing out by now.
    Yeah, they start to grow a little.
    And you got some clothing.
    Where did you get clothing?
    I think we took it over there from the Germans.
    We got something to change the rotten things that
    were smelly, dirty.
    So how long-- then you're back in Krakow and you're working.
    Yeah, and over there was already organized the Jewish--
    I don't know what you call them, the Haganah or what.
    It was an organization.
    Like the HIAS.
    The HIAS, they took in all the people.
    Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and various organizations.
    Yes.
    So you went and registered?
    There yes.
    They registered us.
    And I was over there already I got plenty of work already.
    They want to keep me.
    Yes.
    So in the meantime, somebody told him
    that there was a town what they call Zakopane.
    And they come in with the children,
    where they find like I say, somewhere
    by all areas, the orphans.
    Orphans.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    And they took them together.
    They make a home for the orphans.
    Make a home in Zakopane in Poland over there.
    How far was this from Krakow?
    A couple of hours.
    So they said that they wanted you to come there?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Who was in charge of this?
    Who said this to you?
    I forgot.
    The people.
    The Jewish organization?
    The Jewish Organization
    They thought maybe you could work there with the children?
    Yes, right away.
    They told me I will work over there.
    I will have food.
    They will not pay me.
    Now I will have food and shelter.
    And so you go there--
    We went there.
    --to make clothing for the children.
    Yes.
    I see.
    And they come in a lot of in America.
    A lot come from America.
    Oh, Yes in America, clothing.
    Oh, you mean I see.
    They're already sending things.
    They send.
    In America, they sent out plenty of food and clothing.
    Oh, wonderful.
    And it didn't fit, the children all the kind,
    just from two years, to 10, 12, 15 years.
    Yeah.
    Now where did they find all these children?
    They find them.
    They find.
    There come people in Israel.
    I see.
    And the minute they know something
    they hear that somebody has a Jewish child.
    They come in.
    You mean these were--
    The Haganah.
    I see.
    And these were Gentile people who
    kept the little Jewish children during the war?
    They were kind people.
    Yes.
    Who wanted to help.
    They want to keep them forever.
    Oh, they didn't want to give them give them back.
    They wanted to make them into Christian.
    There was a story with my niece.
    Oh.
    When that was in 1942, I forgot to tell this.
    My sister-in-law was pregnant.
    And in 1942, in July, she went to a hospital
    and she got birth to a little girl.
    There was [NON-ENGLISH] fire from the sky.
    That was terrible.
    You couldn't face this what is was.
    It's the middle of the war.
    You mean bombs and so on.
    Yes, bombs and besides this, a Jew couldn't go out.
    And she kept this infant six months.
    And later on they want to go to a forest.
    And they got a tenant.
    They were wealthy, my brother, this
    was my younger brother with his wife
    and they got three children.
    There was a boy.
    He was 11 years old.
    The girl was seven.
    No he wasn't 11, he was nine.
    And the girl was seven.
    And the little baby was six months old.
    And she was hidden in an oven for a couple of months.
    And later on, they decided it's not the life.
    They will go to a forest.
    And the tenant said he will buy him a gun.
    He will bring him the gun.
    He never bring the gun.
    Who said he would bring the gun?
    The tenant, the Pole.
    Oh, the tenant, the Polish man.
    Yes.
    And he went to the police.
    He told him that they wanted to go.
    They were going to escape.
    And they took him.
    First, they took my brother.
    And he know that he will not.
    And how there was a day before, we was talking to my brother.
    And he says, who will stay alive, they will take the baby.
    And I remember clearly I would be today, how he was talking.
    He was so intelligent.
    He wanted to live and see that he is [INAUDIBLE] and Hitler,
    but nothing.
    He didn't live to this time.
    They took him.
    They beat him up over there first.
    Then they bring my sister-in-law,
    and beat them up both.
    And they kept them, beating him.
    And they took him to another town.
    And the little girl was seven years old.
    She stood on a place.
    And she saw how the parents was walking there through her.
    And I stood too I saw him.
    They took him over there.
    They dig a grave.
    And there was dogs where they ate them up alive.
    They digged and dug.
    There was 20 people over there.
    The dogs.
    The dogs and the German.
    They didn't kill him, but that was horrible.
    When I talk about this--
    It's just like seeing it all over.
    I see it all over.
    So this way I lost my younger brother.
    And my older brother died in Mauthausen.
    Both brothers.
    All right, now let's go back now.
    You're liberated and you're working.
    You're in a camp, a displaced persons camp.
    Yes.
    There was a house, a big house.
    It was a big house.
    But they took teachers.
    Well, there was children.
    What they had--
    Whoever was free.
    You didn't got right to go to school by the Germans.
    Yes.
    So there was children was the age when they--
    Right, there were many years they had no schooling.
    Right.
    Yes, so there was teachers.
    And they teach them.
    There was maybe 8 or 10 teachers.
    It was 150 children.
    Oh, this is where you were working with these children.
    So there were teachers there.
    You were doing.
    Now, how long did you stay there working?
    I think close to a year.
    Close to a year.
    Yeah, that was in '45.
    1945.
    Yes.
    In June, let's say, and we came to later '46, yes.
    What happened in 1946 then?
    Why did you leave there?
    Well, like I say, when they started
    to the Poles and the Ukraine, like here the Ku Klux Klan.
    But they cannot stay.
    Maybe they find they are Jewish people.
    There
    Are still people who hated the Jews?
    Yes, they hate them.
    And they throw over there bombs, grenades.
    Even though the war is over, but they
    want to kill wherever there are any Jews.
    Yes, so the director from them, she come in contact with here
    from America from the Haganah.
    Not Haganah.
    Yeah, the Agudath.
    Agudath.
    Yes, and they started to take us from over there.
    It took time.
    I see.
    So where did you go from there?
    From over there, we went to France.
    You went to France with all the children?
    With all the children we went first to Prague.
    We was in Prague.
    You were in Prague for how long?
    For a short time.
    A short time.
    A short time we was in Prague.
    And then from Prague we went to France.
    To Paris?
    Yeah.
    Without not legal.
    Without papers, without anything?
    So you're there with all these children,
    or is everybody making his own way?
    No, no.
    We went the whole group.
    The whole group together.
    All the people.
    Well, who put you up then in Paris?
    Who took care of you?
    Like I said, the organization.
    I see.
    We didn't do nothing by ourselves.
    The organization.
    They took you to Paris.
    Yes.
    They thought that was just a stopping point.
    Yeah.
    And they said, who wants can go to Israel.
    I see.
    And when we was in a suburb, in Paris.
    A suburb of Paris, yes.
    So many of them went to Israel?
    Later, the children, yes.
    Well it was not Israel yet.
    It was 1946, so it was this illegal immigration to Israel.
    Yes.
    You did not want to go?
    I have a nephew, like I mentioned my nephew.
    Yes.
    But he was in the concentration camp.
    And he told me that this is not a place for me.
    Israel?
    Yes.
    I am not so young.
    They needed people, young people to work there.
    It's very hard.
    And to fight really.
    And to fight.
    Yes.
    And I after all the camps, I am not able.
    He said I should stay in France.
    So you stayed in France.
    And did you stay with this whole group, the rest stayed,
    or were you making your own way?
    No, no I was, and maybe I was over there a year over there.
    I come to me over there the food, and the beautiful place.
    So you got healthy again.
    You gained weight, and you became a person again.
    Yes.
    So once I went.
    I don't know.
    I got some.
    And you're learning French, the French language?
    You're going to school.
    Yeah, I went from over there by the train.
    I went to the Alliance Francaise to learn the language.
    How far was that?
    A half an hour.
    I see.
    Oh you mean just a school, actually?
    Yes, a school.
    And later, I met somebody and they
    said, why should I be there.
    I can be here in Paris and have a good job,
    and start to earn money?
    But I didn't earn money over there, just food and shelter.
    I see.
    So you went back to Paris.
    But meanwhile, you were going to school
    and you met this-- you got a boyfriend.
    Yes, I went to school and I met my husband there.
    Yes.
    And there was other people, but I was very attractive.
    I was.
    I come to me when I was healthy.
    Do you have any pictures of yourself at home in those days?
    I have at home, yes.
    So you met your husband.
    You met this man.
    And did you marry very shortly after that?
    No.
    You went together for how long?
    Oh.
    We met I think in '46.
    Yes.
    And we married in '47.
    I see.
    It was in the beginning '46, in the end, in December in '47.
    That's when you married in December of '47.
    Yes.
    And then you're living in Paris with your Husband
    Yes, yes.
    And you had babies.
    And I got when I start, I did work.
    You worked for a while.
    I work for a living.
    I got.
    Then later--
    What kind of work did your husband do there?
    Did he get a job?
    We was living-- no, he was with his sister.
    But after you were married, what kind of work did he do?
    I did open a shop.
    You opened a shop?
    Yes.
    A shop, and I was working, I got in my house like in Paris,
    you can do this.
    I see.
    Here you cannot.
    They give you all the stuff, the materials you design.
    When I design something and they like it, later, they make a--
    yes, make 100 dresses, 200.
    Yes and I got a machine, and a place and we start.
    We produce dresses.
    You were in a factory.
    You had a factory out of your home.
    Yeah.
    And your husband helped you with this?
    Yeah.
    So all right.
    But you're still there without papers, without anything.
    No, the papers we got right away from the organization.
    We couldn't in the beginning I was working.
    Now, they couldn't take me when this went from month to month.
    He didn't got papers.
    Later, they gave us for three months.
    We can stay three months.
    After the three months was six months,
    and later they gave us for a year, later when I got married.
    And I got a child already, they gave us
    for 10 years a passport.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    So then you lived there and you have two children.
    Why did you decide to leave France?
    We was well off.
    We got food.
    We was working.
    We went for two months for vacation.
    How lovely.
    Yes.
    Over there is-- in Paris.
    You don't need two cars over there or three.
    First, it's in winter time.
    You already think where to go for vacation.
    Can you imagine?
    Things were good.
    Very good.
    We don't make so much let's say money like in America.
    No, you don't need it over there.
    You have everything.
    So why did you decide to leave France?
    Now like I say, in '57, they started with the Russians.
    And we was afraid they will come into France,
    and they will take you then to Siberia.
    To Siberia.
    Siberia.
    Oh, the Russian--
    We are born in Poland.
    There was no war or anything.
    But I didn't realize this.
    The Russians were taking over territory.
    Yes.
    It's like when they entered Hungary, right?
    Is this what you mean?
    You were afraid they were going to come to France too.
    And a lot of people, a lot of the businessmen, everything,
    they left their factories, the houses everything
    what they got, and they run.
    I see.
    They didn't want to go through another Holocaust.
    Yeah, and they run.
    They go to Australia, they go where they could.
    I see.
    Yeah, and later, they come back.
    Now when we went, we couldn't go back,
    what we got already a family, two small children.
    Right.
    My older daughter was 6 and 1/2 and the younger was 4 and 1/2.
    And your sister had come to the States already?
    Yes.
    10 years before.
    I see.
    So after the war, she got to the States.
    You were in touch with each other.
    Yes.
    And you felt that something terrible
    was going to happen in France.
    So you were afraid to stay there.
    Yes.
    So how did you get papers to come to the States?
    Well, when we were in France.
    In Paris.
    In Paris, we started already, like I got the sister.
    Yes, and they said in America you're going to have to work.
    You will Paris is a golden land.
    In 1957, still already they were saying
    that you don't have to work.
    You come and find gold in the streets.
    Yes.
    Your sister didn't say that though.
    My brother-in-law says, well, I don't have to work.
    I can work six hours.
    I can work four hours.
    And we was working very hard in Paris.
    Of course.
    So make in the beginning very hard.
    I got two small children.
    And I did run the whole--
    my husband wasn't.
    It's not his profession.
    Right.
    He was in Poland a businessman.
    So he learned from me all the tricks.
    And I have to do everything.
    Keep up with the house, two children,
    is a different with two years.
    And then later, sit by the machine and saw and iron.
    All night long.
    When he did then know that we work are hard,
    he said, why you should work over there so hard?
    Come to America.
    And you will work six hours.
    This was a brother, or brother-in-law?
    This was my sister's husband.
    Your sister's husband.
    Right.
    OK, so you got papers and you come to the States.
    Yes.
    And how did you come here, by a ship?
    By the ship, we come to New York.
    We could stay in New York.
    No, like I have the sister here in Cleveland.
    Yes.
    So we went to Cleveland.
    So you came to Cleveland.
    And she met you.
    You came on the train, I bet?
    Yeah, she came over there.
    From New York.
    Yes.
    We came from the train to Cleveland.
    And she was there.
    All right.
    So you came to Cleveland.
    And there you are, your husband and you.
    You already are in your mid 30s.
    And you have two little girls.
    And you have you have suitcases.
    You have accumulated things already.
    Yeah.
    And you're going to make a new life in the United States.
    Yes, it was very hard.
    And you're looking your husband is looking on the streets.
    And you're looking for the gold.
    And it isn't there.
    Yes, no.
    And we got over there so much work, my God.
    When you first came here?
    There was, no, I mean we left in France--
    Oh, in France you left so much.
    There was a good season in France.
    It was very good this time.
    Yes, after the war, times were good already.
    Very, here wasn't good.
    Was Eisenhower's time.
    The people was without work here.
    Oh.
    So you came here and you all moved into your sister's house?
    We moved here, to the time, they find for us
    a place where to live.
    At the same house you're living in now, or no?
    Oh no.
    Where did your sister live when you came here?
    She got her own house.
    Where?
    Was in how was this?
    I forgot the name.
    I forgot the street.
    OK.
    So then you got a house of your own.
    Where was your first?
    It took us took us a couple years.
    Oh, you lived with your sister?
    No we lived with the sister, a day or two.
    Oh, but then who helped you find a place to live?
    Did any of the Jewish organizations?
    Yeah, the Jewish organization helped us to find a place.
    What organization, do you know?
    The Jewish Family.
    The Family Service.
    They found you an apartment maybe?
    They found an apartment first.
    And there was over there the Black people.
    Already the Black people?
    Yeah, and we were so afraid.
    The children.
    You had never seen Black people?
    No.
    So we was afraid.
    And we told them we don't want to live there.
    And when we came here in May, no we came here in April 8.
    1957.
    And the children, they went my older one, Renee,
    she went already to school over there.
    And the little one was in kindergarten.
    And all of a sudden, no school, no language, no nothing.
    So we want to have near a school.
    And we find a place.
    And they start to go to Roosevelt school.
    It was a good school over there.
    On Lee road.
    It wasn't.
    No.
    No. that's a junior high school.
    It wasn't on Lee Road.
    It was on the Third street, I don't know something,
    somewhere.
    123rd?
    Yes, there was Superior is.
    Somewhere there.
    Superior through, all right, fine.
    No.
    They started to in the beginning, she was crying,
    my older, Renee.
    She didn't want to go.
    You see, she did remember.
    She was a good student in France.
    She got over there they count in points.
    She got 10 points.
    10 is very good.
    The best?
    Yes.
    And she was getting 10s.
    Yes.
    So it was not a happy situation where you were living.
    No, unhappy.
    My husband couldn't find work.
    He could not find work?
    There was the time was very bad here.
    Yes, 1957.
    1957.
    And did you do some dressmaking maybe or no?
    I didn't do nothing.
    I had small children.
    And I have to take them to school and from school.
    Did the organizations help you a little bit or not much?
    Not too much.
    Did your husband, was he ever able to go to work here?
    Yeah.
    He works where he works.
    One day, he didn't work the second day.
    He work.
    All the kind of works.
    But did he ever get a steady job here?
    Yeah, well my brother-in-law was a knitter.
    A knitter?
    Yes.
    And he went over there and worked for knitting.
    Tell me.
    How much older?
    Was your husband the same age as you?
    He is two years.
    Two years older.
    I see.
    He's in '12 born.
    1912 he was born.
    So the children grew up.
    And did you during the war years,
    let's just go back to that a little bit.
    Did you think you would survive?
    Were there times you thought I can't live through this?
    No.
    When I saw that my brothers, they were athletes.
    I'm sorry.
    I didn't understand you.
    My both brothers, they were so strong and so healthy.
    Yes.
    And they went.
    My older brother he lost this.
    He said, Hitler will not leave nobody.
    He will take everybody.
    He was sure about it.
    That's what Hitler wanted to do.
    Yes.
    And he how long he could, they live.
    There were people what they stuck away money, but never
    find the money.
    Now they demolished houses.
    They want to find.
    The people.
    So actually, only the three girls survived?
    Yes, your older sister, your younger sister, and you.
    Yes.
    As I say, did you think you would survive this,
    or you just didn't know?
    No.
    How do you think you survived?
    I don't know.
    What gave you the strength and hope?
    I don't know.
    Were you very religious person?
    Yes.
    I am.
    You still are today.
    You feel that your faith in God was helpful?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yeah, you see this is in me.
    Like I was raised by my aunt.
    Yes, you told me.
    And I believe in them, in God holds his hand over me.
    How beautiful.
    Yes.
    To have such faith.
    I do.
    When you first came here, what did you think about?
    Did you immediately join a shul, a temple?
    In the beginning, it was very hard for us, very, very hard.
    That life was not--
    This life--
    It wasn't what you expected.
    Yes.
    Well, the children were, like I say, very small.
    Yes.
    And when you take children from another country,
    and they don't have the same language,
    they don't have the children to play.
    Right.
    It is this very, very bad.
    Sure, a parent feels.
    You only want your children to have things nice.
    We speak French.
    We were speaking fluently French.
    And they didn't got with who to play and who understood them.
    They just speak French.
    So I was with them.
    Did you go to school to learn English?
    Here I started.
    I started.
    You speak very nicely.
    I didn't, no in so many years.
    I never work with people.
    But you can pick up better.
    That's right.
    When you're working.
    The accent stay with you how long you live.
    Yes, that's true.
    Children is different.
    Yes.
    They go to school and they pick up.
    They did speak French very good.
    Do they now?
    Do they still remember the French?
    They remember.
    When my daughter Renee, she went to college, she took.
    She got an A.
    Sure.
    In French.
    Now, when she needed a short time,
    so she understands French.
    She can read French.
    She can speak now not so fluent, like she should.
    Yes.
    So eventually you became naturalized.
    And the children grew up and things got to be happier.
    Yes, we send them to college.
    We did what you could.
    Did your husband finally found a steady job?
    Yes.
    What kind of work did he do?
    He was late, when he was a cutter.
    He cut--
    In the knitting mill?
    No he was in the clothing, men's clothing.
    On the West side.
    I see.
    Actually, it was something he had
    learned from your dressmaking.
    Yes.
    Right.
    Yeah, and he was over there a couple of years
    he worked there.
    It was hard for him.
    The older, when you are older.
    He's getting older.
    It's not easy.
    When you were older, you cannot do the same what you do when
    you are young.
    Well, of course.
    Of course.
    So when did he stop working?
    When he was 65.
    I see.
    Well, I think that's wonderful.
    That you did all these things, and you
    were able to send both your daughters to college.
    Oh, yeah.
    Did you ever go to work, Freda?
    No.
    I did--
    Did you take dressmaking?
    I did for a short time.
    And they, I did work for Franklin and Simon.
    I remember that story, yes.
    But did you ever do anything at home?
    I did in the beginning.
    Alterations or no?
    I am not used to alterations.
    You're used to make from the beginning.
    Yes.
    I see.
    I put in too much time.
    And this you cannot.
    It wasn't good.
    But you are not paid.
    I know I put in so much time.
    And what I am asking for the customer was a lot.
    And for me it was little.
    Right.
    That's yes.
    I think the one lady come to me and she
    said to make two pieces.
    She was in Russia, and she bring a piece of material
    what she liked it.
    And her friend, they was living on Desota.
    And she says to me, I will do it.
    I said, yes, OK.
    And I make her a nice two pieces, costume.
    I put in a lot, a lot of work.
    How much she did pay, I didn't got.
    I'm not made to make alterations.
    Like I was working by Franklin and Simon.
    I make over there, they did like the finger, like they say.
    They say they never got a person what they
    know so good the profession.
    Yes, right, right.
    No, it's not pay.
    It's better to work somewhere else.
    You do less complicated work, and you are good pay.
    No, I did not want to leave my children
    when they went for lunch come home, and to an empty house.
    So I sacrifice everything.
    Maybe I didn't do good.
    No.
    There are a lot of women.
    But with my profession I could make a lot of money.
    Well, this is true.
    But they didn't have children.
    And you did.
    And I, like they say in the older years,
    you have children you're always with them.
    And to this day on.
    Tell me.
    Are your friends today people who
    are survivors of the Holocaust?
    Very little.
    I'm a person that I don't go out so often.
    And I don't know.
    The people what I did know.
    You don't have friends.
    Do you talk about this very often,
    your experiences with your friends or no?
    When I, where we are, a little.
    They are people but they don't like to hear.
    They don't want to hear these terrible things.
    Do you think that the Holocaust has affected
    your present physical health?
    You seem healthy but--
    In the beginning, I got very bad dreams.
    You dreamed terrible nightmares, of course.
    Of course.
    For years I got this.
    I did run, and they run after me.
    And I saw everything.
    And now when I have some aggravation,
    when I have something, I have again the dreams
    after so many years.
    And they stay in me.
    This will stay forever.
    Of course.
    I can never, never forget what.
    I'm sure of that.
    I'm sure of that.
    Do you think that survivors of the Holocaust
    are different from other Jews?
    I think so.
    In what way?
    This bring them back.
    They always have something in, where they live,
    this live with you.
    When you are between people and then they
    are a moment when you are away from them, you are out.
    You've had different experiences,
    so that your outlook is different you feel?
    Yes.
    So we know now how this means.
    You have, you are wealthy.
    You are somebody.
    You have everything.
    And all of a sudden, you lose everything.
    And you lose the most important is the family.
    When they come, the worst thing is when it comes to a holiday,
    to stay the picture.
    I remember.
    When I listen to the Jewish news, when they say the prayer
    I cry.
    Of course.
    You remember when your whole family was together
    for a beautiful holiday and now there's so few of you.
    And I say I see the picture.
    Mm-hmm.
    Did you help anyone else to survive, Freda?
    Did you think that you were helpful to others?
    I did.
    In what way, dear?
    Oh, I did help, how I could in the camps.
    I did.
    Well, when you told me you hid your sister and her friend.
    You brought food to those who didn't have any.
    Yeah, I remember there was once a rafle,
    where they knock on the door.
    The break the doors.
    And all of a sudden, I look in the window
    and I see a face that I know, a girl,
    a young girl I went there, opened the door
    and I let her in.
    And she could never forget.
    Otherwise--
    Do you ever hear from her?
    Has she lived all these years?
    I don't know.
    Are you in touch?
    I don't know what happened to her.
    I am not in touch.
    I don't know what happened.
    Are you in touch with anybody who
    were your friends in all these different places that you went?
    There, no.
    No, in Israel there.
    You do have someone in Israel.
    Yes.
    Maybe someday you'll go to see them.
    I hope so.
    Do you write to each other?
    No.
    Not very often.
    Not very often, no.
    What I say, I have a nephew.
    I have a niece that she was last year here.
    And you told me you just lost your sister.
    Your younger sister died this past summer.
    Yes.
    So that you actually your other sister is gone too.
    The other sister, she was a nurse.
    She was in Poland.
    She came to Israel.
    The older sister was she was hidden by the Pole.
    And then there was the little baby that my brother got
    and the tenant what they took out, took her.
    And he didn't want to give her back.
    So my sister went to the court.
    Went to where?
    To court.
    To court, yes.
    And wanted to have the baby back.
    It was her niece.
    It was her niece.
    Yes.
    Now, she didn't get help to help her out in the boat.
    But they took the baby.
    She was in Israel at this time?
    She was in Poland after the liberation.
    She wasn't maybe in January.
    This is when she tried to get her
    niece a baby from the tenant?
    Yes.
    Did she get her?
    She lost.
    But she, no, she couldn't have him.
    What they did, she took the baby once.
    And she run with her.
    And that man went, I got a cousin there.
    And they got a little girl.
    They took the girl.
    And he said if my sister will not give back the baby,
    he will kill the other.
    Oh, dear.
    So she come to my sister and say to her,
    Hella, give the baby back.
    I won't have my child.
    And she gave it back.
    So you don't know ever what happened to that child?
    I know.
    Oh, sure I know.
    She was over there.
    She was very talented in music.
    This was she inherited from the family, because she's a beauty.
    And she went.
    And they make her for a Christian, the girl.
    And she went to school.
    And she went to school to Paris, the conservatorium there.
    She got her doctorate.
    And she met a man.
    Did she play an instrument, or she sang, or what?
    She piano.
    And she met over there somebody too in the music.
    Yes, a Jewish man?
    No.
    And they marry.
    And they they are not Jew.
    And they have--
    How do you know all this that happened to her?
    How I know?
    I know when my sister lived, the older sister.
    She was I put this all together.
    She was in Israel, my sister.
    Yes.
    I send to her, when I was in Paris,
    I sent each week something to Poland,
    kind of the cosmetics, the perfumes.
    To the girl in Poland or to your sister in Israel?
    I send to the girl too stuff.
    Yes.
    And she, I was thinking she will make money, sell this and help
    her, and she come.
    And also she went to Israel.
    And she was over there a nurse, my older sister.
    Yes.
    And later on, we start to communicate.
    I wrote her and to come to Paris to visit me.
    We send her a visa for three months.
    And she came to Paris.
    She was with us three months.
    And later, the younger sister from America, she wrote her.
    She said she want to have her there.
    She want to see her.
    So she went to America, and still have the visa from Paris.
    Yes.
    So she already, in the meantime, we came to America.
    So she was here in America.
    So everybody finally ended up here, the sisters.
    Yes.
    And she was a nurse, and late she was sick.
    She got cancer.
    And she married?
    No.
    She never married.
    And the younger sister lived in Cleveland?
    Yes.
    And she had a child.
    And you just lost her this past year.
    Yes.
    She have a daughter, and she is 33 years old.
    What made you decide to share your experiences with us?
    I did hear a lot.
    My daughter told me, of ours a friend, he came from Lódz.
    And he did make it the same thing.
    Same thing.
    And when my sister died and I was over there sitting shiva,
    so we met.
    And we started talking.