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Oral history interview with Miriam Gershwin

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1998.A.0119.8 | RG Number: RG-50.471.0008

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    Oral history interview with Miriam Gershwin
    Transcript
    36, marker one.
    Miriam, tell me your name when you were born,
    and where you were born, and when.
    My name is Miriam Liechtenstein, and I was born
    the 13th of August in Memel.
    And tell me a little bit about your family background
    and your early life.
    We lived in Memel.
    My parents came there after the First World War.
    And my father was from Latvia and my mother from Lithuania.
    Both my parents have a rabbinical background,
    generations and generations.
    I also had an older brother, two and a half years older
    than I. His name was Marcus.
    And we grew up in a very comfortable, nice home.
    We were on the Orthodox side.
    And we went to school.
    We went to the higher--
    to the Gymnasium.
    And for the girls, we were separated.
    The girls had one school, the boys had another school.
    And my school was named Auguste-Viktoria Lyceum.
    And there we lived until March, 1939.
    The day, actually, when Hitler came to take our--
    not only the town, it was like a region.
    It was called [LITHUANIAN].
    And then we fled.
    We went in the morning.
    My mother and both kids, we went to Lithuania.
    And my dad still stayed, because he was a director
    of the big textile factory.
    And he had the keys.
    So he had to go to open.
    The owners of the factory had gone already before to England.
    And they had brought a British man
    who was overseeing everything.
    And when my dad came to the factory,
    in an hour or two or three later,
    Hitler actually marched into Memel.
    So the director took my dad with his car with a British flag,
    and he brought him over the border to Lithuania.
    And then after that, my dad came to the stop
    where we had made that was in Schaulen.
    We had there relatives.
    There we stayed a few days.
    And then we went to Ponevezh, because my dad had his sisters
    there and cousins.
    And that's where we stayed until January, 1940.
    And then we moved to Kovno.
    If we would have stayed in Ponevezh, we probably--
    I wouldn't have probably sat here now.
    Because mostly all the Jewish population
    through all Lithuania was killed in all the small towns.
    And tell me, in Kovno, what you remember when the Germans came.
    And also just before the changes that you remember.
    Well, for us, actually, it was a big change.
    Because I mean, I'm talking now for me and my brother.
    We didn't know the Lithuanian language too good,
    so we couldn't go to school.
    So I took a course in typing and bookkeeping,
    and then also in 1940, the Russians occupied Lithuania.
    So I got a job, and they--
    they didn't liquidate, they did all the big factories
    and all the stores.
    They, oh, what do you call that?
    They organized it all together.
    So and my dad was really an expert in textile.
    So he got me a job in that office where
    they were liquidating all those books and supplies.
    And so I worked under a bookkeeper.
    And until the war broke out, that was the 22nd of June.
    And it didn't take them-- it took a day or two
    and the Germans were there.
    So we stayed there.
    And you know, I was at that time still pretty young.
    And I thought that I didn't look too Jewish.
    So I went out a little to see to get some food or things.
    And but still, when I stood in line, the Germans or even
    the Lithuanians, came and they took me out
    for labor, to clean some were the soldiers lived,
    or to do other work, to clean the street, so I don't know.
    They always found me.
    And that's where, how long-- and that's
    how we lived until there was an order to go into the ghetto.
    Now, in that time period, were those times
    when you got pulled out of line, were they humiliating you?
    Oh, absolutely.
    First of all, to work, to stay in the street
    and to clean the street.
    And to shout that you, dirty Jew or Schwartz.
    It is very humiliating.
    Also, they right away we gave a order
    to wear the Jewish star in the front
    and in the back of your garment.
    And you couldn't walk on the sidewalk,
    you had to walk in the street, you know, close to the curb.
    So that was also humiliating.
    First of all, everybody knew that you were.
    And whoever passed by--
    oh, you dirty Jew.
    I also have to tell you that the Lithuanian population were
    very mean.
    Before the Germans even came, they
    had killed already hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of Jews
    by themselves.
    Did you see any of that?
    Sure, because it was in the center of town.
    Or it was-- for instance, one day,
    I went out to look up my brother's friend.
    And there, I saw dead bodies on the street.
    He lived in a section where there
    were more religious people, you know,
    with beards and the special clothes
    what the religious people wear.
    And those were, unfortunately, the first ones who
    wear very easily picked out.
    And the sound of the war.
    I mean, when the Germans actually came, where were you?
    And did you hear anything, see anything?
    Well, we were in our apartment.
    And we were afraid to go out, because we had heard already
    some very bad stories about the Germans
    and how they dealt with the Jews.
    And we were really afraid.
    So we stuck more to the house.
    Therefore, I said that I went out a little bit.
    Because I felt, you know, because my mother at that time,
    she was not very sure of herself to go.
    And so I was the one who went out.
    In fact, I had an aunt and a cousin.
    And the cousin was married.
    And there was also a brother from--
    I mean, another cousin, a male cousin.
    And both my cousin and the husband from my other cousin,
    they were taken away.
    And when they were taken away, my aunt, and her daughter,
    and the two children, they came to live with us.
    And one day, somebody rang our bell,
    and there was a Lithuanian soldier standing.
    And he asked for my cousin, you know, for Mrs. Feinberg.
    And when she came to the door, he said, come with me
    and you can see your husband.
    So she was afraid to go.
    So I went along with her.
    And he took us to a courtyard.
    And there we really, actually saw him.
    And he, at that time, said that it's very bad,
    and said he is together with her brother.
    But he doubted that we would see each other again.
    And then we went back.
    And that was really true.
    We didn't see them anymore.
    They were killed on the Seventh Fort.
    OK.
    And then when we went to the ghetto, we all went together.
    But we had separate--
    you know, you couldn't choose your apartment
    or where you wanted to live.
    You were assigned.
    So we were assigned to one place and my cousin, and my aunt,
    and my cousin's two small children,
    they were assigned to another apartment.
    But we were always very close and we stuck together.
    Tell me about moving into the ghetto.
    Well, that was really not a big deal, because we came to Kovno,
    and all our stuff, we had left in Memel.
    So too much, we didn't have.
    So we rented a little wagon and we took there the few beds
    what we had and our personal belongings, the clothes.
    And that's how we went, in a few parts.
    And that's how we went into the ghetto.
    And it was a sight, you know, what you saw.
    Only wagon, wagon after wagon on the whole street.
    And the place where we went, it was called Slabodke.
    And at that time, they didn't--
    it wasn't paved.
    There were cobblestones.
    And that's how we moved into.
    OK, we're just about to run out.
    We have to put another roll of film.
    Seven, mark two.
    Did you feel a certain safety after the ghetto got formed?
    Or did everything turn upside down?
    Well, it turned upside down.
    First of all, I'll tell you, we were also
    like strangers in that Jewish community
    because we didn't know too many people.
    We came from Memel.
    We lived only in Kovno like a year.
    And at that time, it was also already
    the Russians were there.
    So nobody felt really very safe.
    And not safe, but you didn't socialize too much.
    Because under the Russians, you were always afraid who can talk
    and who can say something.
    So we really felt like strangers.
    We didn't have too many.
    And there was also no time to socialize in the ghetto.
    You got up in the morning, you went to work,
    you came back in the evening.
    And the only thing is that-- and that we realized later,
    that we were all together.
    And we still had our own clothes.
    That if it rained, and the next day, you
    could put on something else.
    Where later in the camp, you couldn't.
    So that was.
    But otherwise, we really-- we didn't, you know.
    And at the beginning there were Actions.
    Did you know about any before the Great Action?
    Oh, sure.
    There was the one when they took out the 500 men.
    And at that time, I even--
    I don't know if you call it boyfriend or not, but anyhow.
    There was a boy, you know, who I knew,
    and I went out with him a few times.
    And he was taken away in the 500.
    But you know, people, when you live,
    and you always want to believe the better part.
    And at that time, they said that they'll
    take them to sort books.
    They wanted more or less like people who are intelligent,
    that to read books, and to make a library, and to do this,
    and to do that.
    And then when I worked--
    I mean, I'm going off now.
    But when I worked at the commander from the ghetto,
    his father once came over.
    And he said, you know, you are working.
    Ask it might be he could know where he is, or it might be he
    could even bring him back.
    So I didn't ask him directly.
    But the commander, he had like a valet, you know,
    who took care of this when they were not in one place.
    Otherwise, I mean, I polished his shoes and all that,
    that the valet was sitting.
    So I asked him, and then he came back, and he says--
    you know what he said.
    First of all, he came back, he said, well, what is he to you?
    So I said, well, he's my fiance, because I wanted to.
    So then he came back.
    And he said-- you know what he said?
    That he feels sorry for you.
    So you know that they were gone already,
    all the 500 men and boys.
    Before we go to that job, let's talk about the Great Action.
    Do you remember that?
    Oh, sure I do.
    Because that is actually after my job.
    Because that is when I saved my aunt and my--
    because we got a order that November.
    so and so, the 28, I think.
    October 28th.
    October 28, we should all assemble,
    6 o'clock in that one place.
    So we all went.
    And you know, at that time, as I said, we still had our clothes.
    And because my dad was in textile,
    we were quite well-dressed.
    And we were, I have to say it myself,
    we were quite a very handsome family.
    My dad, and my mother, and my brother,
    we were all good-looking and tall.
    So we were standing, my father and my brother on the sides,
    and we, too, my mother and I, in the middle.
    And in the back was my aunt, and my cousin,
    and her two small children.
    And when we went through--
    and that I'll really never forget--
    when we went through, you know, when
    we came closer to the German, he was standing like this,
    you know.
    And he said, right, left, right, left.
    So he asked us, he said, is that one family?
    And my dad said, yes.
    And he said, please, straight ahead.
    So we probably made-- because for a German to say to a Jew
    please.
    So we probably made an impression on him, too.
    And then so we went to the right, you know.
    All of a sudden, my dad turned around, and he said,
    you know, the [GERMAN] isn't here, aunt Sarah.
    And all of a sudden, I see, and there was a group to the left.
    And they were surrounded by Lithuanian police.
    And they were there.
    So in the corner, I saw one for whom I had worked.
    After the commander, I worked for somebody else
    in that same outfit.
    So I ran over.
    And when he saw me running over, he said, Miriam, what happened?
    Where's your family?
    I said, we are here, but my aunt is not with us.
    He said, come with me.
    He went with me in that group, and we took them out.
    And I mean, unfortunately, they didn't survive.
    But at that time, I saved them.
    And what happened to the people who went to the bad side?
    To the bad side, there were-- overnight they were taking.
    Our ghetto was, when we started with the ghetto,
    there was a small ghetto and a big ghetto.
    So they were all taken.
    There were about 10,000 people.
    They were taken to the small ghetto.
    And during the night they were taken to one of the forts
    and liquidated.
    Did you see any?
    Did you see them going off the road to the forts?
    No, those I didn't.
    Because mostly, when transports came, and they brought--
    the Germans brought quite a lot of transport
    from Germany and from Austria.
    But mostly, it was done during the night.
    Only once, during that, they brought them.
    And probably, they were delayed.
    So they took them over in the morning.
    And our ghetto was surrounded with barbed wire.
    And we had our own police.
    So when the police saw so many people going, so they
    opened a little, you know, the barbed wire.
    And they said.
    I mean, they couldn't say to everybody, but you know,
    a few, come here.
    Come in here.
    You will be safe.
    But you know, the German Jews, they
    thought that to them, nothing will happen.
    They said, oh, no, we are going to,
    as I mentioned, some kind of a camp.
    And they didn't come.
    And unfortunately, they were all killed.
    Could you hear machine guns from where you lived?
    No.
    But I'll tell you how we knew that they are bringing people,
    or that they'll have an Action in the ghetto.
    They used to come for lime.
    You know, that white stuff.
    I don't know, it doesn't make you smell bodies.
    And there was, in the ghetto, there probably
    there was a pit from that.
    So when we saw those wagons going with the lime,
    we knew that something will happen.
    Or in our ghetto, or they'll bring,
    you know, somebody from another country to be killed.
    And now, tell me how you came to work for that officer?
    Well, when the ghetto was closed, a couple of days
    later, they came.
    And they looked for silver and gold.
    And so they went from house to house.
    And it so happened that the commander probably
    must have come, you know, like fate to our house.
    And when he heard us talking in German between my parents
    and us children, he called me out.
    And he said, do you want to work for me?
    And I said, well, I'll have to.
    So he even said, you know, and he said,
    don't worry, I won't go to bed with you,
    because that's forbidden.
    And he came with two big dogs.
    So I said, OK.
    So he said, OK, come along.
    So he took me right away with his car.
    And he took me out of the ghetto into his apartment.
    And he introduced me to his valet.
    And he said, from now on, I mean,
    you'll be responsible to him, you know.
    And he'll tell you what to do.
    And he wrote a note that I can go by myself
    to the ghetto from his house.
    And in the morning from the ghetto to his house.
    So I actually was the first one who
    had such a note that I am allowed to walk by myself.
    Because mostly, when people went to work,
    they all went in a big group like a brigade.
    You know, [GERMAN],, used to be it was called.
    And I was the only one to have that.
    And the first one.
    I mean, later, some other people also got jobs individually.
    But I was the first one of the Kovno ghetto
    get to have that piece of paper.
    In fact, when I came back, when all those things--
    now, you'll remember.
    Yeah, and then that day-- no, I went back by myself.
    And my parents, they probably thought that they will never
    see me again.
    So when I--
    Mark three, marker.
    Tell me a little more about that commander.
    Did he like you?
    He probably did because one day he came-- and he
    went into the ghetto, and whatever he liked,
    whatever he saw, he took.
    One day, he comes.
    He says, you know, today I brought a present for Miriam.
    And what did he bring me?
    A yellow star, what we had to wear,
    but it was done by an artist.
    It was really beautifully done on the wire ring
    and with yellow--
    actually, it was gold in the middle of the star,
    and it was really very pretty.
    He brought it to me with a pin to put on.
    Also, his valet was very good to me.
    First of all, I had to eat myself there,
    and he always sat and ate with me together.
    And in the evening, he made sure that I always brought something
    home for the family to eat.
    And at the time, that was a big, big thing, and I can tell you
    we should really have so many good years still,
    how my mother divided the food among some friends
    or some neighbors and my aunt and my cousin for sure,
    but there were a few neighbors.
    And my dad, at that time, worked on the airport,
    and my mother always made sure that he has an extra sandwich,
    if he worked with somebody, that he shouldn't
    see that he is eating well and the other one
    not because, first of all, there were no refrigeration where
    you can keep it.
    And second, we always knew that tomorrow I'll bring,
    again, something.
    So that was a big help for us.
    And did he one time tell you that he
    would like to shoot you?
    And what did he mean?
    No, that was his valet.
    He said to me one day-- he said, you know, Miriam,
    I would like to shoot you.
    And I said, why?
    What did I do to you?
    And I see that we are quite friendly among ourselves.
    He said, well, I don't want you to suffer.
    I'll hit you right in the heart.
    Tell me-- can we cut for just a second?
    Marker, four marker.
    Miriam, can you tell me what the workshops were in the ghetto?
    I don't know about a ghetto.
    I didn't know about the workshops.
    Oh, sure.
    And that was a very good thing because a big hunk
    of the population were occupied with that.
    They had all different departments.
    There was a shoe department, what
    made the boots for the Germans.
    There was a laundry, where they brought their clothes.
    They even made toys for--
    what they probably sent back to Germany.
    And a lot of people were occupied,
    and it was good for the people to work
    because if you didn't work and they had the selection,
    the first ones who always were selected
    were the ones who didn't have a job.
    And not everybody could go out of the ghetto to work places.
    There were not so many demands.
    So in fact, later on, when I got married and--
    the commanders-- they all changed.
    They didn't stay too long.
    A different group took over.
    I also worked in the Werkstätten.
    I worked in the toy department.
    We made toys from wood and stuffed dolls, like rag dolls.
    Can you just tell me what day-to-day life
    was like in the ghetto after the great action, in that period
    when the ghetto just sort of operated as a ghetto?
    Well, daily life was, like I said
    before, you got up in the morning, you went to work,
    and you came back.
    And you were glad to come back.
    More or less, the Jews were very inventive.
    They took the fences, and they had some wood for the winter.
    And we also had our own clothes at that time,
    and they took those clothes along
    to the workplaces out of the ghetto.
    And they exchanged it.
    The Lithuanian people used to come
    with butter, and margarine, and potatoes,
    sometimes even some meat, and they exchanged it, flour.
    And then they brought it back.
    So we had a little more to eat than later
    on when we went to the concentration camps.
    But otherwise, we even had--
    the Germans organized all the musicians,
    and we had, from time to time, a concert.
    And we Jews alone--
    we organized the school for the little children,
    that they were occupied, that they shouldn't hang around
    until they had the Children's Action
    and they took away all the children.
    But up until then, they--
    and once you are alive, and you always
    hope that it might be tomorrow, or the next day,
    or the next day it'll be over.
    And as I said before, we were still with our families.
    I even got married in the ghetto,
    so there was romance and everything, more or less like--
    I wouldn't say a perfect, normal life because you always said,
    tomorrow they have an action, and you will be the next one.
    But when the morning started and you were still alive and--
    so another day was gone.
    Tell me again about the workshops.
    I'm sorry, but there was a big plane when you told me.
    The workshops were-- and they were very good for the ghetto
    because people were occupied, and they had where to go
    because if you didn't have any job--
    not everybody could go out of the ghetto
    to the working places because there wasn't so much demand,
    so we made there--
    there was a laundry to wash the--
    soldiers, whoever brought the laundry.
    There was also a repair shop for the uniforms to repair it.
    Shoemakers with there.
    They made the boots for the soldiers.
    We even made toys as they had different kinds of departments.
    But basically to serve the Germans?
    Oh, yeah, sure.
    We could not bring our laundry there or our shoes, no.
    It was only because it was supervised, and they came--
    we rarely even knew when an inspection will come.
    Tell me about the Jewish police, the ghetto police.
    The ghetto police-- they had it very tough because on one side,
    they were commanded to work with the Germans.
    On the other side, they wanted to help the Jews.
    So in general, they were all very nice.
    There were a few, what you find all over,
    who wanted to be holier than the pope,
    but in general, they were nice.
    And they warned the people, and it was--
    really, they looked out for each other
    because we were all in the same boat.
    And we knew that if we'll be destroyed,
    we'll be destroyed all of us.
    If you were a policeman or if you were not a policeman,
    you will have the same faith.
    And it so happens that sometimes the policeman went first.
    Like?
    Well, because it might be they knew a little bit more,
    or they were involved in something.
    So they were shot before the others.
    And spiritual life, religion?
    Religion was-- if you were religious, you were religious.
    For instance, my mother--
    up to her last day, she didn't touch any meat.
    For us she cooked because she felt that we need the strength,
    but she didn't.
    And our meat consisted of dead horse meat, and sometimes,
    if you were lucky, when you bought from--
    out of the ghetto you bought some lard or some ham,
    what the Jewish religion does not allow.
    So she didn't touch not even the morsel of that, but for us
    children and for my father, she felt
    that we go to-- because she did not go to work.
    She stayed home.
    So she felt that we needed it more, and she cooked for us,
    and we ate at.
    I think we're about [INAUDIBLE].
    And later my mother-in-law--
    Tell me a little bit about the ghetto council.
    The ghetto counsel consisted of six, I think, or seven men.
    They were all lawyers or doctors.
    In fact, the Dr. Elkes--
    he was from the same town like my mother,
    and whenever there was some problems
    or my mother had something, the first thing was Dr. Elkes.
    And they were also--
    they were under big pressure, but they still were helping us.
    And they looked out more for the Jews,
    and the few times they had really, I think,
    big arguments with the Germans, that they did not comply
    to their orders or to their--
    because as I said, we were all under the same rule,
    and they really didn't look out to save themselves
    and to give the other people not a chance.
    So in general, it was OK.
    It was hard for those sent to work because not all
    the workplaces were good ones.
    So how do you-- if somebody got a better--
    where he could exchange these things
    for better things, and some were [? not-- ?]
    when none of the Lithuanian people came to exchange.
    But in general, it worked out very well,
    and I think there was not too many what
    were against Judenrat.
    Did they have terribly difficult choices?
    Did they have to prepare lists [? when ?] [? ordered ?]??
    They had to prepare lists, but they also didn't always.
    And in fact, in 1943, they were supposed
    to give a certain amount--
    I forgot how many were supposed to be delivered,
    and they didn't give out so many.
    So in the Germans went, and whoever they grabbed
    they grabbed.
    In fact, that's when my mother went away and my husband's
    whole family, his mother, his two married sisters
    with their children.
    So they had to choose people for selections,
    and they didn't necessarily know what was going to happen?
    No, they didn't because they were always told
    that they are going to work.
    So it was up to more or less-- sometimes they probably
    choose single people.
    Sometimes they choose young people.
    But in general, mostly, also, they ask also for volunteers,
    and a lot even volunteered because they thought
    that maybe there it will be better because you really
    didn't know.
    And a lot of times it really worked out that you
    were sent to labor camps.
    There was a [PLACE NAME].
    There was a big group, and there was
    in [? Paneriu ?] a big group.
    And they worked there like from the ghetto,
    and later, they were also brought to Stutthof
    or to the concentration camps.
    So you really were never sure if that is a selection
    for death or for work.
    Tell me about the Kinder Aktion.
    The Kinder Aktion-- that was when the people had
    gone to work in the morning.
    All of a sudden, there came into the ghetto a lot
    of buses with their windows painted black, and the Germans,
    with their Lithuanian helpers because they
    didn't go anyplace without them because they
    did the dirty work.
    A lot of times, the Germans did it, too,
    but they always had the helpers.
    And they went from house to house,
    and wherever they found children they took them.
    There was one man--
    he didn't want to give his daughter,
    so they took him, too.
    And there was another lady--
    she was even a Gentile, and she was married to a Jew.
    And she opted to go into the ghetto with her husband
    and the two children.
    And when they came, at that time she even said-- she said,
    my brothers are on the front fighting for you,
    and you want to take me and my children.
    But that didn't mean anything.
    She was, unfortunately, taken away with her two children.
    What did you see of that?
    You were at work, right?
    No, I was, at that time, in the ghetto, and I was there.
    And we saw that the people were running
    on the street, and in fact, my cousin with the two children--
    we hid them, and lucky had it--
    they didn't find them, and they were saved.
    The little girl was about eight or nine,
    and the little boy was maybe five.
    Tell me about the grief, the sadness.
    Well, when the people came back from work
    and they didn't find their children,
    I don't have to tell you what that means.
    It's bad enough, sometimes, that you
    lose a child, but to work so hard, and come back,
    and then don't find them--
    so you could only hear crying, and crying,
    and not even crying, shouting from grief,
    and hitting their heads on walls.
    And that went on for quite a few days.
    Tell me about how your niece and nephew were--
    where they were hiding.
    We had built a little-- not we, the whole house where we lived
    had built in the yard to go downstairs
    and then in the ground there, and that was supposed
    to be for the whole house.
    So we took them down there, and it so
    happens they didn't find them.
    A few children were somewhere, in an attic somewhere,
    a double wall, so a few children were saved.
    But it was like not even a fraction of the people
    what they-- of the children what they took.
    But at that time, we were lucky.
    We had the children.
    And tell me about other hiding places besides that one,
    sort of in general.
    Well, people dug out from underneath their houses,
    cellar.
    Some dug under the fence to go to the Gentile side, whoever
    had the means.
    Also, we really didn't know because those things were not
    publicized.
    And was the ghetto very different towards the end
    than it had been earlier?
    Absolutely because once the children were away--
    first of all, you didn't have the school anymore.
    You didn't, also, hear some children.
    Children are children.
    When it was calm, they ran around.
    They talked.
    They sang, and the mood from all the people were very, very low.
    We also knew a little bit what was going on with the war,
    and we also always felt that we won't see it,
    that before the war will finish we'll be--
    so the mood after each selection,
    and after each month, and after each thing
    what was probably when we heard that the Germans were defeated
    in Russia--
    for us, it was not like a joy.
    For us, it was always, well, soon
    our time will come to be destroyed and killed.
    Was the ghetto getting smaller?
    Yeah, because some people went into hiding.
    Some people went to the partisans,
    and with the selections it was always
    getting smaller and smaller.
    So by the end, about how many people were there?
    Do you know?
    This I really don't know.
    I think we're about to run out, and I
    don't have a short question.
    Tell me about the trading for butter.
    Well, when you went and you got-- and you were so happy
    you got a piece of butter, and what will that
    mean when you come back to the ghetto
    and present that to your family?
    And then when you opened it, there was mashed potatoes in
    and it was only a coating of butter or margarine.
    So that was a big disappointment because you gave away
    a lot of things and a lot of good things
    because, when the Russians came--
    Six, marker.
    We're rolling.
    Another question about the Kinder Aktion--
    did some parents choose to go with their child?
    Oh, sure.
    Not too many parents were around because mostly they
    were working, but for instance, there was one man,
    and he was a policeman in the ghetto.
    And he did not give his child, and he went along.
    It was Mr. [? Buch. ?] And a few others
    who were there-- for sure, quite a few
    were taking older parents.
    Do you know what happened to the children?
    Whatever was said, that they were taken and gasses.
    I really don't know.
    No witnesses are there to support.
    But nobody came back.
    Let's put it that way.
    So the imagination is there.
    The hiding place-- did you spend some time in the hiding place?
    Yes, we did.
    When the ghetto was liquidated, we all
    went into that same hiding place, the whole house
    where we lived.
    And it was terrible, and the few children who were--
    like my cousin's children.
    At that time, we lived in the same house.
    And as soon as the ghetto got always smaller, smaller,
    they closed off parts.
    So when my mother was taken away and my husband's family,
    we all went together with my dad, and my brother,
    and my cousin, and my aunt, and the children.
    We all lived together.
    And the children were really good
    because they were told that they should hardly breathe,
    not a sound out of them, but the air was so stuffy.
    And really, I couldn't breathe, so I said,
    whatever will happen to me, I'm going out.
    So my husband and my dad came along,
    and I was pleading with my brother to come also.
    And he said no.
    He said, whatever will happen, I'm staying here.
    I'm not moving.
    And unfortunately, he got-- because when we were taken away
    from the ghetto, the ghetto was already burning,
    and they all perished.
    And I'm sure that if he would have come with us,
    he probably would have been alive because my dad survived,
    and my husband survived.
    So he probably would have survived, too.
    Tell me what that hiding place was like inside.
    You didn't even see.
    It was dark, and we had there provided a few pails of water
    to drink.
    And I don't know if we had bread or what.
    I really don't remember.
    I only remember the water, and from time to time,
    it was passed a few drops for each one.
    And we stayed there like--
    I think I stayed there like about maybe two days,
    and then I couldn't take it anymore.
    And I said at that time--
    I asked my aunt and my cousin also to come,
    and my cousin said, look, where will I
    go with my old mother and my two small children?
    I don't have a chance.
    Where will I go?
    So she stayed, and my brother didn't go.
    He also opted to stay.
    Was it hot in there?
    Terrible hot.
    We were practically naked because it
    was a small hole, no walls and nothing, a hole in the ground.
    But it was under--
    there was a shed on top, so under the floor
    they had dug out, the men.
    And I don't know how many were there, 30, 40, or 50 people, 30
    for sure because when you start to run
    and somebody else from the neighborhood came,
    you couldn't tell him he can't come in.
    You had to let them in, too.
    So I'm sure there were a few still
    who didn't belong to our house.
    And so when you came out, describe what you saw
    and how long it took before you were deported.
    When we came out, we opted to go to those Werkstätten,
    where they--
    and there, we even met up with a few of our friends.
    And there we stayed until the Germans came,
    and they said that they have the trucks ready
    and we should move.
    And they put us on trucks, and they took us
    to the railroad station.
    And when did you see the ghetto burning?
    While we were on the trucks.
    They went already to each house, and they started to shoot,
    and they started to burn because they
    knew that people were hiding.
    And some even came out running and also
    the very poorly dressed because I'm
    sure in each hiding place it was the same situation
    like in ours, so people started to undress their clothes.
    And some were caught, and some probably
    were shot because we heard shots, too.
    So some were killed on the spot.
    But you made your way from the hiding place
    to the workshop safely?
    Yeah, yeah.
    You sort of sneaked there or--
    Well, we did it probably at night, when it was dark,
    and the ghetto was not miles and miles.
    It probably was a couple of blocks.
    So we went one after the other, and we
    were three people, my father, my husband, and I, so slowly,
    slowly until we made it.
    And you were married in the ghetto,
    and did you get pregnant in the ghetto?
    Yes, I was.
    I was pregnant twice, and I had to have abortions
    because that was the law.
    And so how did you arrange that?
    Oh, there were doctors [? that was ?] [? with the ?]
    Germans.
    In fact, one of the doctors--
    he was in a person, and they released him
    because he was an obstetrician, and they needed him.
    And that was his job.
    And can you tell me how different
    it was in the concentration camp from in the ghetto?
    First of all, we didn't have our clothes.
    We also didn't have our families, for instance.
    As I said before, I didn't know too many people,
    so I was really alone like a stone.
    Some had a mother, a sister, a sister-in-law.
    I was all alone.
    And so you shared with a friend.
    And there you didn't have anything.
    You had your dress and your coat.
    You also didn't have--
    not a piece of soap, not a comb, not a piece
    of toilet paper even, nothing.
    I didn't even have any shoes until the end of November,
    until they brought the wooden shoes.
    And they were very bad because up in the north, when
    you have snow, you have snow.
    So it was very-- and the snow used to be on the wood,
    and it was very hard to walk.
    You walked like this, and if you didn't
    walk like four in a row or three in a row,
    you got hit by the German.
    We also lived in little scout tents
    where you couldn't walk in like you walk through a door.
    You had to crawl like a dog.
    There were 10 people, 10 women to a tent,
    and the tents were already-- from the rain
    and from the snow, they were not even anymore waterproof.
    So in the morning, our heads were frozen to the material.
    You also didn't have any--
    if it rained and you came back, there
    was no way of taking off your clothes and trying it.
    So you went to sleep with the wet clothes,
    and in the morning, you went back
    to work with the same wet clothes
    until it finally dried on you.
    I think we did everything.
    Let's cut.
    I think we're almost out--
    Seven, marker.
    You want to ask me the question now?
    Which one do you want to start with?
    Well, let's start with the festivities.
    So tell me about the festivities in the ghetto.
    When we got married--
    first of all, my husband-- he had a lot of friends,
    and he knew a lot of people.
    And also, because I had saved my aunt and my cousin,
    they at that time said, listen, when you get married--
    but not thinking that I'll get married in the ghetto--
    we'll really go to town.
    So when we decided to get married in the ghetto--
    and you wanted to have a little something.
    So first of all, I had to still my dresses what
    were made to order before the war, and my sister-in-law had,
    probably, a little veil or what.
    So anyhow, I was a nice pride.
    And the food consisted of--
    they took potatoes, and they took out the inside.
    And they made it like gefilte fish with the spices,
    and they cooked it back with onions.
    And somebody had gone and-- and I
    think my husband even went to a brigade.
    Because he was a bridegroom, they
    let him do more exchanging than the others.
    So he brought back some flour, and so my aunt--
    she made even cream puffs.
    I don't know if they were filling,
    but they were little cream puffs.
    You cooked it.
    And then from the peels of the potatoes, we made pancakes.
    They were washed, and that was done not only for festivities.
    That was really sometimes our main dish.
    You washed them, and then you chopped them up.
    And you put in a little flour, and you baked them.
    Or if you had a little oil, you fried them,
    and that was the pancakes.
    And I don't know if he even had, I think,
    a chicken or something, but anyhow,
    it was a very nice celebration.
    And that was our wedding.
    Who were some of the guests, and how many people came?
    The guests were-- as I said, we didn't have family.
    It was only my aunt, and my cousin, and the two children.
    My husband had to married sisters and his mother,
    and the rest were his friends because he
    was a very outgoing person.
    And he liked to have people around himself
    and to be like the center and to talk to everybody.
    And so all his fraternity brothers
    came and all the people he knew.
    And we had a rabbi, and it was like according
    to the Jewish law.
    In fact, after the war, my grandfather, who was a rabbi
    and who had come to Palestine at that time--
    we started to correspond, that we are alive,
    and so the first question in his letter
    was who was the rabbi who married us because,
    for him, that was the most important thing
    as a religious man.
    So we wrote him at that time who it was, and it
    was with his approval, that it was legit.
    And now we have to backtrack a bit,
    and tell me about the woman who approached you in the street
    so that we can learn how you met your husband.
    Oh, OK.
    So she approached me on the street with the letters--
    You have to back up a little bit.
    Oh, because you don't have that?
    We don't have it.
    Oh, OK.
    One day, when I was working from work to the ghetto,
    I was walking in a gutters.
    And I saw that the woman is going, and she's looking at me,
    and she's like keeping up the steps with me.
    And so I looked at her, and then she motioned me
    I should come closer.
    And she came closer to the curb, and she
    said that she has some letters from Jewish people
    from a ghetto in Vilna, if I would take it to the ghetto.
    And she said that she would be there in two or three days,
    and if they are replies, she would bring them back.
    So I took the letters, and I went back.
    And I gave it to my mother, and we looked at them.
    And my mother, the biggest bulk, she
    took to the Dr. Elkes, who was our oldest
    man, our elder from the Judenrat because,
    as I said before, she connected with him.
    And a few I kept because I thought
    I knew them because it was addressed to a Dr. Bloomberg,
    and we had friends Dr. Bloomberg, who
    came not from Memel but from the region of Memel,
    and we knew them very well.
    So I said, the few what I know I would like to deliver myself.
    So I took that letter, and I asked
    where the Dr. Bloomberg lives.
    And they told me, in the white--
    what was it called?
    I forgot what it was called.
    --in the white block.
    So I went there, and I knocked at the door.
    And my husband-to-be opened the door,
    and I had known him from before, from Ponewesch,
    when we came out of Memel and when we went to Ponewesch.
    So I said, I have a letter for Dr. Bloomberg.
    He said, yes, come in that's my brother-in-law.
    So I right away knew that it was not that same Dr.
    Bloomberg what I thought he was, but anyhow,
    I delivered that letter.
    And that's how [? was ?] the friendship.
    And then later, the courtship started,
    and we got married in two weeks.
    But after the war--
    we were liberated by the Russians in January of '45,
    and the war was still going on.
    So we figured that we-- so then we were--
    from the whole camp, we were about 700 women.
    About 20 were sent to a hospital,
    and I was among the 20.
    So after that, when we stayed there--
    and the Russians themselves-- they didn't have any food,
    and they didn't have any food for us.
    So we were lingering around.
    And then they said that they'll send us back to Lithuania.
    And we ourselves wanted to go because that's
    where we came from, and we wanted to go back there.
    We didn't know-- that was already, then, after the war--
    who survived and who will come back.
    And so we started going back to Lithuania,
    and we went through Poland.
    And at that time, you couldn't go with train like you go now.
    You buy a ticket, and you go.
    You went to the railroad station,
    and whenever you saw a train and you felt that it's going north,
    you jumped on it, and you went to another town
    or another town, always closer, closer.
    So in one town, we stayed on the railroad,
    and a few people in Polish uniforms came by.
    And they were talking--
    and at that time, Poland was still very antisemitic,
    so they were talking a little Polish and a little Jewish.
    And they asked us, are you from [NON-ENGLISH]??
    And [POLISH] in Poland means a town,
    and [HEBREW] is a Hebrew word for the Jewish people.
    So we knew there were Jews, so we nodded our heads.
    So they said we should come down,
    and then when we came down, they started to talk to us
    in Jewish.
    And they said, what are you doing?
    Who are you?
    And so we said we are refugees.
    We survived the camps, and now we
    want to go back to Lithuania.
    So the guy said, do you know if somebody
    is alive from your families?
    And we said no.
    He said, please, don't go back.
    It's a very large door in but a very small one out.
    Stay in Poland, and if you will hear
    that somebody of the family is there,
    they'll always let you in, the Russians.
    So we took their advice, and we went to a bigger town,
    to Lublin.
    And we stayed there, and at that time,
    also, we didn't have anything to eat.
    We still wore our clothes from the camps
    because we didn't have anything.
    So we went to the market, and we sold--
    somebody gave us some yarn to sell,
    so we had a few pennies there to buy a small piece of bread.
    And if we didn't have it, we didn't have it.
    So we were three women, and one woman had a daughter.
    And we were all from the same camp.
    So we were four.
    So then one day, some men came--
    they went to Lithuania--
    who had given away their children to Gentile people,
    and they wanted to collect them.
    And when they heard my name, they said,
    oh, your husband and your father-- they are both alive,
    and they are in American zone because they
    were all in Dachau, and they were
    liberated by the Americans.
    So you can imagine that we are very happy.
    And for the other women, they also
    said that her husband is alive.
    And for the next one, they said her husband was killed,
    but the brother-in-law was alive.
    So we decided we'll go to Germany already,
    and that is a story by itself.
    So also, at that time, you couldn't go--
    so we used to live in the train station,
    and whenever we saw a train, we went on it.
    In one town, we met up with two German--

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Miriam Gershwin
    Interviewer
    Sandra Bradley
    Date
    interview:  1997 June 02

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    3 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

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    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
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    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Sandra Bradley, a film production consultant for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, conducted the interview with Miriam Gershwin on June 2, 1997 in preparation for the exhibition "Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto," which opened in November 1997. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received a copy of the interview on July 11, 1998.
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:41:42
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    Contains oral history interviews with sixteen Holocaust survivors recorded in preparation for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's exhibition, "Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto," which opened in Nov. 1997. Collection includes interviews with: Brigitte Altman, Miriam Gershwin, Eta Hecht, Henry Kellen, Tamar Lazerson, David Levine, Jacob Lewin, Esther Lurie, Ted Pais, Avraham Pnina, Abraham Rodstein, Ivar Segalowitz, Avraham Tory, Helen Yermus, Celia Yewlow, and Berel Zisman. The interviewees discuss their experiences of living in the ghetto in Kaunas (Kovno), Lithuania, during the Holocaust

    Date: 1997 May-1997 July

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