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Oral history interview with Avraham Tory

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1998.A.0119.13 | RG Number: RG-50.471.0013

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    Oral history interview with Avraham Tory
    Transcript
    And Avraham, you can look at me.
    And in the ghetto you decided to keep evidence.
    Can you tell me a little bit about that?
    Well, I thought that they keep us in the ghetto in order
    that the outer world should not know what
    transpired inside the ghetto.
    So I thought it is important for me to write down a diary
    and mark down what happened in the ghetto day by day.
    And what other things did you do to keep a record?
    I beg your pardon?
    What other things did you do as evidence?
    Well, I kept also documents, various documents.
    What kind of documents?
    Let's say the orders of the Germans, orders and whatever
    it takes to cultivate to viewpoint
    for a future generation.
    When you kept track of the German orders,
    how did you do that?
    I bet your pardon?
    How did you do that?
    Did you have someone to type the orders?
    I did it myself.
    Tell me about Gadiel's workshop.
    Oh, Gadiel, yes.
    Gadiel was a very important graphic.
    He was a master of graphics, and he
    had a workshop with graphics.
    And we were in very close contact with him all the time.
    You gave him assignments.
    I beg your pardon?
    Did you give him jobs to do for you?
    Yes, of course.
    Tell me about it.
    Well, I thought that something important
    should be put also by video.
    I asked him to prepare in writing a document in writing.
    Do you remember this document?
    Oh, yes.
    Tell me a little.
    Describe that document to me.
    Can you give me--
    Well, this is a certain summary of killings in the ghetto
    for a period of several months.
    And this is what I get the fire and killing and this was
    in the ghetto for a period of approximately two months.
    And I put it in.
    I asked Gadiel that he should put it in a visualized form
    so we can remember it.
    Can you tell me this part of it?
    It's the same thing, the same document but a chart.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    This is a balance of two months of killings.
    On the 9th of September and October in 1944 in the ghetto.
    This is men, women, around the tragedy the 28th of October
    was a very crucial day in the ghetto where people were killed
    and that's why I put it especially.
    OK, let's cut camera for a minute.
    Do you remember the start of the war.
    I beg your pardon?
    Do you remember when the war started?
    When the war started?
    Yeah, what did you hear?
    What was it like?
    Well, they start shooting and the arresting of Jews
    in the street and so on.
    What kinds of things happened to the Jews in the early days?
    In the early days they used to get Jews on the streets
    and take them into the fort or to the jail.
    And when the ghetto was set up, how did
    everyone move into the ghetto?
    There was an order from the 15th of August everyone
    has to be in the ghetto.
    It was an order, official order of the government.
    How did they move there?
    I beg your pardon?
    How did everyone move there?
    First of all, most of the people lived
    in the area or the ghetto.
    And the others had to move.
    They get a special date.
    To this date everyone has to move to the ghetto.
    Tell me about the aktion, the great action on October 28.
    This was a big aktion.
    10,000 people were taken away from the--
    All the Jews from the ghetto were
    ordered to appear on the Democrat Square, which
    was a great square, and there they selected and take 10,000
    away and they never came back.
    Tell me about raiding the potato fields.
    Do you remember that?
    Yes, of course, because there was starvation and people
    were hungry.
    So they started to take out the potatoes from the ground
    before it was ripe.
    Was that dangerous?
    I beg your pardon?
    Was it dangerous?
    It was dangerous because people were hungry
    and when you are hungry, you don't think about dangerous
    or not dangerous.
    Tell me what you did with the artists.
    Did you send Esther Lurie and Joseph Lipshitz
    to make pictures?
    I was all the time with Esther Lurie in contact.
    And also Lipshitz, of course.
    Yes.
    What did you tell them to do?
    They recorded what I thought was important to eternalize
    from the ghetto.
    You sent them to do pictures?
    Yes.
    Tell me.
    I went with Esther Lurie for the reason
    that I was a part of the ghetto that were taken out
    of the framework of the ghetto.
    So there was a way we could go there.
    But I went with her, with Esther Lurie,
    and she painted from a hidden house.
    That was a house where there had been--
    I beg your pardon?
    Was that the dentist's house?
    No.
    The hospital, where the hospital was burned.
    No.
    This is the area.
    The hospital burning.
    Tell me about that.
    The hospital building where the patients and the doctors.
    They just put it on fire and they
    didn't let the fire brigade from the ghetto
    to come close and liquidate the fire
    Why did they do that?
    The Germans wanted to kill the Jews.
    It was simple like that.
    Did they give an order they were going
    to set the hospital on fire?
    No, they just put the fire and finished
    without any announcement, without any prior announcement.
    Did you see the fire?
    Of course.
    Tell me about it.
    Everybody could see the fire.
    And the fire brigade that came close they
    didn't let them deal with the fire.
    What time of day was it?
    Tell me about it.
    Daylight, in the morning.
    In the morning.
    Tell me about how people moved to the ghetto.
    How did they move there?
    Did they have carts and horses?
    Cats and horses.
    But the Lithuanians were ordered not to serve the Jews.
    But nevertheless they served and there were rows,
    long rows through the streets of Kovno on the way to the ghetto.
    I have some pictures even of them.
    You talked about once the book aktion.
    Yes.
    Tell me about that.
    What was the book action?
    There was an order of the Germans
    to take away all the books.
    And so we order the clandestine to
    instead of giving to the Germans the books, most of the books
    went clandestine to certain to the underground.
    What about the dog and cat aktion?
    What?
    Dog and cat aktion?
    Dog and cat aktions, yes.
    They wanted to the synagogue in order
    to hurt the feelings of the Jews and they order the dogs
    in the synagogue and there they were killed.
    And left there.
    And they left there.
    Dr. Elkes.
    What kind of a man was Dr. Elkes?
    He was an exceptional man.
    First of all, he was a famous doctor, a physician,
    but he was a great Jew and very devoted to his people.
    And he didn't want to be elected as a chairman,
    but finally he was elected and he was the best choice
    that we could ever do.
    He was all the time head of the ghetto.
    Do you remember being forced to go to a bar
    mitzvah of the Zussman?
    Do you remember that?
    Oh, yes.
    Tell me about that day.
    Well see, I was in the office of the ghetto.
    And then I got a call from the ghetto reichstatten,
    the ghetto workshops that came really from the stat commissar
    and they asked that I should come immediately
    to the workshops.
    So I went from the eldestrat to the workshops.
    On the way a man caught me by the hand
    and they didn't let me go.
    Here's what happened.
    You have to be by my son his bar mitzvah
    and you have to drink l'chaim.
    And he didn't let me go until I sat down and read the barucha.
    It was very moving.
    Were they very religious people?
    They were.
    People are religious, people are not religious.
    Bar mitzvah is not a matter of religious.
    But were those particular people?
    Yes.
    They were.
    And were they happy?
    How could they be happy in the ghetto?
    Nobody was happy in the ghetto.
    Nobody.
    It was cut off of the entire world.
    The ghetto changed to a concentration camp.
    Tell me about that.
    Well, this was more a stronger close over and restriction
    of the movements and so on.
    It was stricter restrictions.
    And the SS came in then and what did they
    do to the Jewish committee?
    Later on the Jewish committee was liquidated
    because they had no functions.
    But still they existed.
    Underground.
    Yes.
    Resistance.
    So people fought back.
    Yes.
    And so tell me about food.
    Was there enough food?
    Food?
    There was never enough food in the ghetto.
    And we always used to go to the city to work.
    People were supposed to walk a certain way through the gates.
    They used bring back food.
    On the gate they used to take away parts of the food
    that they didn't allow to go in to the ghetto.
    It was a very hard situation.
    Wood, firewood.
    Yes, of course.
    We got a load to put in fire with a certain quantity,
    a very small quantity, but on the same family we
    clandestinely;y brought in the ghetto much more firewood.
    Was it dangerous?
    Could people be killed for smuggling?
    Of course, but we were very careful
    bypassing the gates of the ghetto.
    Did people burn furniture to keep warm?
    Yes.
    Tell me about it.
    My wife, she took our wonderful furniture
    and she burned it to warm a room in the ghetto.
    The Jewish committee.
    Tell me how it was formed.
    Well, the Kovno ghetto was the only one
    where the Jews themselves elected their committee
    with Dr. Elkes as head of the committee.
    Were the police, the Jewish police--
    Of course.
    Tell me, were they are good?
    The Jewish--
    [TELEPHONE RINGING]
    Avraham, you buried things in the ghetto, you hid things.
    Tell me about that.
    Well, I buried things in the ghetto
    in order to keep it from the Germans.
    You understand?
    So I kept it in the clandestine.
    And then after the ghetto part I found, part I didn't found.
    You went back how soon after the ghetto burned?
    When did you go back?
    When the ghetto was liquidated we all left.
    You went back--
    The ghetto was burned in the little part of the ghetto.
    The ghetto was a smaller part and the bigger part
    and they burned in the smaller part of the ghetto.
    Yes.
    How soon did you go and dig up the diary?
    As soon as the ghetto was liquidated.
    Tell me about digging it up.
    I went to the places where I was hiding it
    about 2 meters below the earth.
    And I dig it up in 4 places.
    I had to dig it up in 5 places, but in two places
    I couldn't reach because it was ruined.
    So only three places.
    I could dig it up.
    OK.
    Did you bury it inside jars, or what
    did you put the diary inside to bury?
    Just plain wood, plain cartons.
    Tell me about--
    Do you remember this document?
    Tell me about this.
    These were your last page of the document.
    What was it?
    Give me--
    Don't put your glasses on yet.
    Tell me about the picture.
    This was a wedding.
    Wait, take your glasses off.
    You have to take your glasses off and you have to sit back.
    OK, now tell me about that picture.
    This was the set of the rooms of the ghetto collected
    in one place.
    You ordered it, is that right?
    I composed it.
    How?
    I collected from what it was and then put it together.
    With your own hands?
    Yes.
    You pasted it together?
    Yes.
    And tell me about the picture.
    The picture.
    The picture was symbolic to show that there
    is no equality in the ghetto.
    Did you bury this document?
    Yes.
    Do you remember where you buried it?
    Well, I used to--
    There was a building that was called Block C,
    and below this Block C we buried the five crates.
    How did you get guns?
    Guns?
    Guns, yeah.
    Well, we bought from the clandestine.
    What kind of guns?
    Well, not very important guns.
    Not important guns.
    Who had guns?
    Somebody of the police at some from the underground.
    Did you ever have a gun?
    No.
    But did you help buy a gun?
    Yes.
    How?
    Tell me how you did it.
    What?
    How did you do it?
    How did I bury it?
    How did you buy guns?
    Who did you meet?
    I didn't buy them.
    Some of the underground, members of the underground
    went to the city and they used to buy guns and bring it
    into the ghetto.
    Did anyone get away from the Ninth Fort
    ever and come back and tell you about it?
    No.
    There was an escape of the Ninth Fort, the famous escape
    of the Ninth Fort?
    But did anyone ever come out who didn't get killed?
    Did a little boy come back to the ghetto?
    He came back to the ghetto, yes.
    What did he tell you?
    Well, he was a little boy and there was not
    much you could learn from him.
    But nevertheless, he was the only one,
    the first one that escaped from the Ninth Fortress.
    Was he left there?
    Did they think they killed him?
    I don't think so.
    He got away before--
    He wasn't in the pit.
    He was not shot at?
    No.
    No.
    OK.
    And the yearbook.
    Do you remember the yearbook?
    Yes.
    Tell me about this.
    Are there maps in the yearbook?
    Maps and all kinds of documentation.
    Was this your book?
    Yes.
    And who kept this for you?
    In the underground below the house in the Block C,
    in the building of the Block C. Below the earth.
    OK, let's cut picture for a second.
    So tell me that again.
    [INAUDIBLE] the German told us that birth is restricted.
    and there should not be births in the ghetto
    and all kinds of such restrictions.
    So what do people do with that?
    Were there abortions in the ghetto?
    Yes, there were abortion.
    Some people had babies in the ghetto too.
    Before, before the restriction.
    What kind of orders were there?
    What kinds of things did the Germans--
    What kinds of things did the Germans order?
    For instance, they ordered to submit
    all the electric equipment that we had.
    All kinds of things, whatever they had in their head.
    How often did they give orders?
    All the time.
    How did they do it?
    Who would they tell?
    Would they tell you?
    They would tell the Jewish committee.
    And then what would you do?
    How would you tell the people?
    Announce.
    Announcement, public announcement
    on the walls of the ghetto.
    On the places special for announcements.
    Did the Germans give you the orders in writing or did
    they just tell you what they were and then you had to--
    Mostly they gave it oral, bit sometimes also in writing.
    And then what did you do?
    We used to proclaim in writing to the Jewish population
    together.
    So every day you would go to Gadiel
    and you would say, OK, now make a poster about this?
    Not every day.
    More or less frequently.
    They took away milk from the ghetto?
    Yes.
    The cows they took away.
    There were six cows in the ghetto.
    They took them away.
    What else did they take away?
    They took away valuables.
    Of course.
    What did they make you hand over?
    All kinds of things that happened.
    they used to say electrical equipment.
    All kinds [INAUDIBLE] from time to time.
    Thank you.
    Let's cut the picture.
    Avraham, when the Germans gave you the order by word
    and you had to give it out in writing,
    did you have to write it yourself?
    Of course.
    We had the secretariat.
    Usually we had a secretariat.
    A secretary, a typist.
    Who put the verbal order into writing?
    If the Germans told you orally, who wrote the order down?
    I and my assistant, the secretariat.
    Did you ever get in trouble for how you wrote the order?
    No.
    The Germans never got angry that you did it wrong?
    No.
    That it wasn't tough enough?
    I don't think so.
    I don't remember.
    I think.
    Tell me how many different kinds of orders.
    Did you think they were all the same or did
    you think they were--
    Were you surprised?
    There was no surprise because German orders.
    We lived on it.
    They were all kinds of orders--
    economically, spiritually, verbally, all kinds.
    You knew what to expect.
    Yes.
    Was there a sense of irony?

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Avraham Tory (né Golub), born in 1910 in the small town of Lazdijai, Lithuania, discusses hiding in Kovno (Kaunas, Lithuania) when the war broke out on June 22, 1941; keeping a diary for three years; life in the Kovno ghetto and life in hiding for four and a half months; leaving Kovno to go to Vilna (Vilnius, Lithuania); escaping in February 1945 and going to Lublin, Poland; his escape route through Bucharest, Romania as well as Czechoslovakia and Hungary; crossing the Austrian border and subsequently going to Italy, where he became active in the illegal immigration movement; arriving in Tel Aviv on October 17, 1947; his early years in Palestine; and the sequence of events that led to the publication of the “Surviving the Holocaust: the Kovno Ghetto diary” (see https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/bib2956).
    Interviewee
    Avraham Tory
    Interviewer
    Sandra Bradley
    Date
    interview:  1997 July 23

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    2 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Tory, Avraham.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Sandra Bradley, a film production consultant for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, conducted the interview with Avraham Tory on July 23, 1997 in preparation for the exhibition "Hidden History of the Kovno Ghetto," which opened in November 1997. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received a copy of the interview on July 11, 1998.
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:41:44
    This page:
    http:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn511031

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    Time Coded Notes (2)

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