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Harvard Law School Distinguished Speakers Series: Dr. Jack Porter

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1995.A.1288.7 | RG Number: RG-50.121.0007

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    Harvard Law School Distinguished Speakers Series: Dr. Jack Porter
    Transcript
    Our next speaker is president of the Spencer Group of Newton
    and is renowned for his extensive research
    on Jewish sociology, human rights, and the Holocaust.
    He has published numerous books and articles,
    including Genocide and Human Rights,
    A Global Anthology, and Confronting History
    and Holocaust, Collected Essays 1972 to 1982.
    It gives me great pleasure to introduce our next speaker, Dr.
    Jack Porter.
    [APPLAUSE]
    I really-- can you all hear me?
    I'm really very happy to be here.
    I'd like to start off with a little joke
    because we deal with such heavy subjects.
    And it is a joke, by the way.
    And I usually say this before basically Christian audiences
    because I speak as a Jew.
    And it's a joke that was a humorist, Harry Golden,
    if you remember him--
    do you remember Harry Golden?
    Anyone?
    Well, if you're under 40, you probably don't.
    But he was quite a funny guy.
    He said that we Jews, we pray for your health
    and your happiness.
    And we hope you get your wage increases.
    And we hope your children are healthy and happy
    because if you aren't we Jews catch hell.
    [LAUGHTER]
    I taught one of the first police courses
    back in 1970 at DePaul University.
    And I taught it with a Black gentleman
    by the name of Buzz Palmer.
    And he and Mr. Renault founded the one
    of the first Afro-American patrolmen's leagues
    in Chicago at a time when under Daley that was not very popular.
    And I think he lost his job soon after that.
    But even though now I am a businessman,
    I do come out of the academic world.
    And that, of course, was an eye opener.
    And ever since then, after that came the famous Walker
    Commission and the Presidential Commission on Violence
    and millions of dollars of money was given out.
    And I'm still wondering how much has not changed
    and how much has changed.
    I mean it's really--
    maybe you'll tell me.
    But that's some of my roots.
    I go back to Chicago and to that first course.
    And as I stand here today, I'm also
    thinking about another course that I was involved with.
    That was a course on police and society to general students,
    including police.
    And then about 10 years later, I taught the first course
    on the Holocaust to policemen and firemen
    at Bunker Hill Community College.
    And that was also a very powerful, very poignant
    experience.
    I don't know how many members, people out here,
    are veterans of World War II.
    But I'm sure there are some naturally.
    We had people in that course, one of them,
    who had liberated Dachau.
    And that gave him the opportunity
    to speak for the first time in his life about his experiences
    in World War II.
    But the most poignant relationship
    between the survivor, the Holocaust survivors-- and I
    am a survivor of the Holocaust and the child of survivors.
    I was born in 1944 in Rovno, just as the Russians were
    liberating, or some might say conquering, the country.
    And I'm 42 years old.
    I'm lucky to be alive.
    My father and mother were partisan commanders
    during the war.
    He was a leader in the Russian partisan command.
    But my most poignant relationship in that course were
    with Vietnam veterans because both I, as a survivor,
    and Vietnam veterans-- and there may be some here--
    both of us saw each other as survivors.
    And I don't think that one can fully
    understand what that means to be a survivor unless one
    has survived.
    And a survivor is filled with many things.
    He's filled with gratitude that he has survived.
    But he's also filled with great guilt
    that he left behind many people who died.
    And he's filled with ambivalence.
    And this causes many problems sometimes in some veterans
    and in survivors in general.
    Even to this day, my father would say, why did I live
    and the rest of my family or my good buddies died?
    And there's no answer.
    And all you're left with nightmares at night.
    So that the Holocaust background--
    and when I met Commander Roach, Mickey Roach,
    at the Elie Wiesel dinner, the first thing I said to myself
    and many people said to themselves
    is what is a cop doing here?
    What does a cop have to do with the Holocaust?
    Why is he here?
    And I said to myself, this is fantastic.
    He should be here.
    And then when we talked and he said--
    and it was good timing I guess--
    and you said, I have a series of speakers
    and I want you to talk on the Holocaust, I said, finally.
    That is the most important topic.
    That is one of the most important issues
    that you can go and read about.
    And I have a reading list afterwards
    if you want to read about the Holocaust
    because you will understand the Holocaust better
    than other people as policemen, because you are survivors.
    Secondly, just like we Jews had to wear the yellow badge,
    front and back, in the ghettos of Europe.
    That was our stigma.
    You have your stigma.
    Your stigma is your uniform, and secondly, your badge,
    and thirdly, your gun.
    This is your stigma.
    I can remember in 1970, one of the biggest issues under mayor
    Daley was that he forced his policemen from captains
    and everybody on down and commanders
    to go to work back and forth in a police car
    and to wear the uniform 24 hours a day.
    There were people there who wanted
    to get out of the uniform.
    There were people who did not want their children, friends,
    and neighbors to know that they were policemen.
    They wanted to go to the locker room and put on that uniform.
    It's not that they were ashamed of it.
    But let's face it, they were a minority.
    You are a minority.
    If I can leave you with one thing today, my friends,
    is that we talked about kindness.
    And we call this in Judaism hesed.
    You will understand that kind kindness.
    I'm not saying being naive on the streets, God forbid.
    You have the most difficult job in the world
    because you have to deal with the shit of the rest of us
    who don't deal with these problems.
    You are that thin blue line that protects people.
    You have to deal with all the problems
    that we don't want to deal with.
    And nobody knows that--
    or respects that.
    But you are a minority.
    That's why you must understand other minorities.
    If you yourself know that, then you
    will have that ethical responsibility, that knowledge,
    that understanding to others and to other minorities
    of all types.
    In the Jewish religion, we celebrate several holidays
    that deal with freedom.
    One of them is Hanukkah.
    But we celebrate one called Passover, Pesach.
    And that holiday, we are constantly
    reminded that we were slaves under pharaoh in Egypt.
    Now, why does the Bible want us to remember
    that we were once slaves?
    And the reason is it wants us never
    to be so haughty and so arrogant that we forget that we were once
    slaves ourselves, that we were once immigrants.
    We were once refugees.
    We were once nothing.
    And now we are risen up into positions of grandeur,
    and we're making a lot of money.
    And we're doing wonderfully.
    That's why every year we Jews have to lay low.
    We have to limit that arrogance and remember
    that we were once slaves.
    We have to go through the experience of slavery.
    Now, what are the lessons that one
    can learn from the Holocaust?
    And believe me, I'm not going to tell you anything new.
    You know those lessons.
    You know them in your hearts.
    And all you have to do is just spread them
    to your men and women and to others.
    One is the sense of hesed, or the Torah
    says kindness and ethical responsibility
    that we keep mentioning over and over again.
    Second of all, you have to understand,
    you have to talk to people.
    You have to go out to the people and even
    talk to them about how you yourself are a minority.
    Talk about your uniform.
    Talk about the this emblem that you
    wear that you may be ambivalent about.
    That you are proud of it.
    But maybe embarrassed, or members of your family
    are embarrassed.
    Once you get beyond that stigma, once we
    can see you as a human being, then you
    will see me as a human being.
    We know during the Holocaust that we Jews were, yes,
    Hitler called us a race, but we were subhuman race.
    We were not seen as human beings by the Nazis.
    That's why they could destroy us.
    Once you see somebody as inhuman, as non-human,
    you will do violence to him and vice versa.
    Once they see you as non-human, they will do violence to you.
    Therefore, you must, and if necessary, mingle
    among the people.
    Talk to people.
    Don't even have to tell them that you're a cop,
    you know, if that's a barrier.
    Join them in their brises.
    Join them in their Black holiday, Kwanzaa.
    Join them for their holidays, their Chinese--
    go out into the community, as Commander Roach
    did into the Jewish community, to the Elie Wiesel.
    You know what you have to do.
    Then people see you as a human being.
    And we know that once this happens
    and once people can talk to each other,
    we know that it's not just sociological.
    We know that it can save your life.
    Third of all, we need more training.
    I'm not saying this is necessarily
    a lesson from the Holocaust, but just in general.
    You have, and your men and women have, life and death decisions
    over people.
    There's two occupations that do.
    One is a surgeon.
    And one is a policeman.
    The surgeon has 10,000 hours of training.
    And you have 200 hours of training in academy.
    You need as much education as possible.
    And that's why I'm so happy about this lecture series.
    For example, right above us is the famous Harvard Negotiation
    Project with Professor Fisher and William Ury.
    They should also be invited to speak,
    to train scientifically people how to negotiate conflict,
    how to mediate people because we know the costs are
    too great to for confrontation.
    We must learn scientifically how to mediate conflict,
    get people to talk to each other.
    They now, right above us, ironically, in the fourth floor,
    they have the scientific studies now
    in the project that can help us.
    These are all very simple things.
    I don't have that much more to tell you.
    What you are doing is very important.
    And I will be happy to talk more specifically about the Holocaust
    if you have a question.
    But these are some of the basic elements
    that one can learn from about the Holocaust
    and about being a minority.
    I would like to conclude with permission,
    with a little prayer.
    In fact Harvard could use some prayers,
    you know, even here in itself.
    And it's a prayer that I composed regarding the Holocaust
    and also a prayer for you.
    I call these the Ten Commandments of the Holocaust.
    One, thou shalt remember everything
    and understand nothing.
    Two, thou shalt record everything, memoirs, diaries,
    documents, and poetry.
    Three, thou shalt teach it diligently to thy children,
    for as rabbi Emil Fackenheim has said, the survival of Israel
    is now a sacred duty.
    Four, thou shalt teach it to the Gentiles and to their children
    because thou art often at their mercy.
    Five, thou shalt not heap abuse upon the children
    of the ungodly, though the wicked are to be punished,
    their children must be forgiven.
    Seven, thou shalt not judge the victims.
    Thou shalt not place one set of idols above another,
    the heroic above the cowardly.
    They are to be judged equally before the Lord.
    As Rabbi Elie Wiesel of Siget has said,
    there is a time to remain silent.
    So therefore, know when to be silent.
    And I might add, those who speak, do not know.
    And those who know, do not speak.
    Eight, thou shalt not lose faith amidst all thy doubt
    and confusion.
    I, the Lord your God, are here among thee.
    Nine, thou shalt not dwell heavily
    upon the sadness of the past.
    Rejoice for thou hast survived while thine enemies
    have perished.
    Ten, thou shalt not turn away from thy brothers and sisters.
    Instead, reach out and build a paradise on earth
    so that life and love can prevail.
    And in that spirit God bless you in this season's greetings
    to all of you.
    Thank you very much.
    [APPLAUSE]
    It's nice to have a friend.
    A good friend.
    I say a friend because it's an interesting comparison.
    The whole idea of us being a minority, it just kind of like
    woke me up a bit.
    I guess that's the truth.
    So maybe it's much easier to relate
    to a very diverse group of people in the city of Boston.
    We're all minorities.
    That's the bottom line.
    And again, like you say, you made reference to the badge
    and to the gun and to the uniform.
    But you did indicate, you know, we do take great pride.
    Yes.
    And we're going through a difficult period.
    And I'm sure that prayer will be extremely helpful.
    We really appreciate that you have come by because I hope that
    we've--
    I would like to say this is a--
    if I went back 20 years ago, there
    were some very, very talented people in the police department,
    particularly at this level.
    But I think in this day and age, I'm very proud of everybody
    here.
    We have some outstanding people.
    In terms of leadership, people who are really on the street,
    there's a few gentlemen here, like Joe Mills,
    who in 1974 with Joe McCormick and there's
    Dan McDonald, who were leading department
    during a difficult time during busing.
    We have another fine leader, like Bob O'Toole and Eddie
    Yeager, who are on our special operations unit.
    A very talented woman here, right here, Ann-Marie
    Doherty, the first woman to be appointed to the command staff.
    We have a Joe Carter and a Paul Carr,
    who worked in the Civil Rights area for several years
    and distinguished themselves very much.
    We have Bobby Dunford.
    You should spend a few minutes with him
    because you're concerned about the lack of hours of training.
    And I think you'll be surprised when
    you see the diversity of training and the sensitivity
    to a very diverse population.
    So we have an awful lot of talent here.
    And I'm very pleased.
    You know, 20 years ago, I don't know,
    again there were very, very talented
    and good leadership qualities.
    But I think the city has changed and the leadership has changed.
    And I'm very proud of them, very proud.
    So we're very, very pleased for you to come by.
    And if Joe could please bring up the plaque--
    I'm very happy to be here.
    And we'll-- again, another very small token because we realize
    given all the books you've written,
    and I'm sure all the lectures you go to, we've really got
    a bargain today.
    Once again, Dr. Porter, thank you very, very much.
    We appreciate everything.
    I appreciate it.
    Thank you very much.
    [APPLAUSE]
    I'll be happy to answer any questions about the Holocaust
    or--
    yes.
    And this isn't about the Holocaust,
    but I know in Boston we have a very small Jewish population.
    Is there any general perception from the Jewish community
    about the job of police officers?
    It's a good-- it's a good question.
    --you people that are applying for the job as a police officer
    here in Boston--
    A very good question.
    The Jewish attitude toward the gun and toward the police
    is very ambivalent.
    As you know, there are very few Jews who go hunting--
    it's true.
    There are very few Jews who like boxing.
    There were when they were immigrants, 30, 40 years ago,
    we had a lot of Jewish boxers.
    But you know what I'm saying.
    Take my father.
    My father was a commander in the partisans in Russia.
    He killed people.
    I know he did.
    When the war was over, he never once brought a gun
    into the house, a rifle, anything, never talked about it.
    That was it.
    And he never allowed us to have any guns.
    The situation is that I don't know, jokingly,
    I could say that maybe Jews have used verbal, you know--
    they like to talk and that's their substitute for fighting
    and for physicality, I don't know, or joking or something.
    They like to argue.
    But they have always had, I think, being a small minority,
    knowing that it would probably be better to talk their way out
    of a situation, or to have what we call shtadlanim.
    Shtadlanim, the best example of a shtadlan
    would be something like a Kissinger,
    a man who has erudition and who is intelligent
    will speak rather than to use force.
    So this ambivalence-- and it goes back
    to many years of survival as a people,
    they found that they could survive better
    without that, without the gun.
    And frankly, many Jewish families are afraid of the gun
    and afraid of rifles and hunting and of fighting.
    I mean they fight.
    This is another fallacy that we have to--
    there's a fallacy that Jews were cowards during the war,
    that they went like sheep to slaughter to the Nazis.
    This is not true.
    My books are filled with examples, not
    only my father's life, but many who were fighting.
    And in World War II, you know that there were many Jewish GIs.
    But once the war was over, they put it aside.
    And that could explain the ambivalence
    that they have toward authority, as well as to--
    however, as you professionalize and become
    almost indistinguishable from maybe high class lawyers,
    you know, really, you know what I mean?
    Or indistinguishable from masters in criminology,
    you will get more Jewish people as you will get other people.
    Yes.
    In the New York Police Department,
    there is a large population of Jewish police officers.
    Right.
    It's because the more working class
    background tends to use that as a means to go up.
    And while in other cities, where you
    have a very small Jewish working class, like Boston,
    they would tend immediately to go to college
    and go into the professions.
    That explains it.
    No questions on the Holocaust?
    Anybody who went through World War II here?
    Liberated the camps or remembers that period?
    They don't want to admit it.
    You have a question.
    Yeah, go ahead.
    Do you find the that is not a very strong interest
    amongst non-Jews to learn about the Holocaust
    and the implications it has for all people?
    No, I find that there's a great hunger for knowledge
    about the Holocaust, that people have
    a lot of questions about the Holocaust and also about Jews.
    I had one student who said, Jack, I
    heard that on your bar mitzvah you circumcised your people.
    That's pretty painful.
    Yeah, 13 years old, to get circumcised,
    even if it's under anesthesia, local or otherwise,
    that says Jesus.
    So I mean, this is an educated person.
    So there's a lot of myths, you know.
    They want to know.
    People do want to know.
    Yeah.
    Didn't the King of Norway when the Gestapo
    come out that all Jewish people in Norway
    would wear the yellow arm band, didn't he
    come out and put on the arm band and the rest
    of the population did also?
    That's right.
    That's a perfect example of how when the leadership on top
    is humanistic and humanitarian, the people follow.
    Sorry to say, aside from the Italians, the Bulgarians,
    and a few other countries, most other countries,
    leadership did not do that.
    And that's how he saved the Jewish community.
    Right.
    I was just thinking, you referred to once as a minority.
    It must be extremely difficult--
    I was thinking, I think most of us
    who think about the Holocaust, we look at it
    in terms of just a brief period of time of World War II.
    I guess start of World War, I was about five years of age.
    And I don't think I had any idea what was going on,
    even it was over.
    But--
    World War I?
    World War II, I stand corrected.
    I know you're not that old.
    [LAUGHTER]
    What I found fascinating when I went to college, first term
    paper, they said you can select any topic you want.
    And I began to--
    I don't even recall what I titled the paper,
    but concerned Jewish people.
    I don't think it focused on the Holocaust.
    But I was amazed, absolutely amazed
    at the problems the Jewish people experienced,
    not just in the Holocaust.
    I mean going back thousands of years.
    When I saw the word Poland, then when I realized what that meant,
    extermination of people.
    I mean the history, the ordeal of the Jewish people,
    it was overwhelming for me.
    And yet I don't detect any hatred.
    But I can begin to understand why
    one must keep the Holocaust and perhaps the other problems right
    before you.
    Yeah.
    The attitudes towards Jews by all people,
    it could be Irish, it could be all minorities, Blacks,
    is ambivalent.
    That's the problem we deal with almost any minority group.
    You have good points, you know, about a minority group and bad.
    Let's take Jews.
    There are a lot of people who say give me
    a Jewish doctor or a lawyer.
    I only want a Jewish doctor or a lawyer,
    right, because they know that they're going
    to get maybe the best perhaps.
    Yet at the other hand, oh, God, damn, that Jewish businessman,
    he screwed me again, you know.
    Or he Jewed me out of money.
    I mean even use that word, Jewed me out of money.
    Even I used it sometimes, I got to be careful
    because I want to use the same word.
    I can't find an equivalent word.
    I mean think about it.
    I mean what word do you use?
    [LAUGHTER]
    So that on one hand we have this image of money
    and taking advantage and controlling the media
    you hear and being too bossy.
    And I will admit, like every minority,
    there are certain traits in every minority that I
    don't like either.
    You know, I mean this is true there
    are certain traits among Irish people that they wish
    they could get rid of or Black people or Chicanos or everybody.
    There's traits among Jews that I don't like.
    They talk too much.
    They don't listen.
    What
    It is basically is there's two kinds of Jews.
    One is the Talmudic Jew, the rabbi, the man of study,
    of learning, and of kindness.
    And then there's the hard boiled Sammy Glick business type of Jew
    that's ready to-- the Ivan Boesky
    type, that's ready to screw everybody to make the buck.
    You got these two images in your mind.
    How do you reconcile them?
    Believe me, we have to deal with those problems.
    That also emerges.
    Even Hitler himself, I bet if you pushed him
    and if you look into his past, he had ambivalent attitudes.
    He had some respect for Jews.
    And yet, he went ahead and he killed them.
    So that's the problem we all have.
    Are we ever going to make progress with violence?
    We heard some talk--
    Probably.
    It's been around so long.
    It's amazing--
    Probably not.
    Yeah, when you say will violence, probably not.
    One of the things that can help you from being burned out
    is first, of course, a spiritual life, naturally.
    Second of all, a life outside of your police force.
    Look at other worlds.
    Get out of your little world.
    Third is the fact that you're not going to change the world.
    You know the Talmud says, you did not come into this world
    to-- you won't complete the task,
    but neither should you avoid the task.
    You understand what I'm saying?
    We will not complete it.
    But you still must try to complete it.
    So with that kind of attitude, at least
    you'll know it won't change it, but you'll
    make an effort in this small little street or community
    or maybe in your own family.
    You'll make some effort somewhere.
    And under your leadership, I know
    you will make an effort because you're
    one of the few people I know who actually understands that values
    are just as important as processes and everything else.
    And therefore, this-- the kabbalah
    says, for example, that one never
    knows the action of one's act.
    A word can move mountains.
    A teacher could put into your mind a little word 20 years ago,
    it'll stay with you for the rest of your life,
    and it'll transform you.
    This is kabbalah, Jewish mysticism.
    Therefore, you never know the extent
    of the power of what you do.
    And you may never know even after you die.
    So with that in mind, do what you have to do.
    Know that you'll never complete the task.
    But you must continue the task.
    Yeah.
    This morning, as you know, we heard some dismal statistics
    about the breakup of families and such and its effect
    on crime.
    What is it about--
    I don't like sociological stuff too much either.
    I'm an ex-sociologist, and I agree.
    I see good and bad.
    One of the things is I'm glad I'm not a sociologist anymore
    because I'm out in the real world, not in the ivory tower.
    This is not to say anything negative
    against the previous speaker.
    What I'm saying is that sometimes you look at the media
    and you think everything is terrible.
    And if you look around you, everything is terrible.
    And yet if you look at the other side,
    it's good despite everything.
    I don't know.
    I think you have to kind of judge--
    and I think you know as well as I do,
    you can't trust what the media says.
    You have to trust what's in your heart.
    You have to go intuitively.
    Yes, there are plenty of problems.
    Is it worse?
    I don't know.
    All I'm saying is that I think it's better.
    The glass is half full.
    It's not half empty.
    But where does the strength of the Jewish family come?
    I mean we have again that belief--
    It comes from--
    --that the Jewish family is a very strong tight knit group.
    Well, sadly, that too is breaking up.
    We have more Jewish alcoholics.
    We have more Jewish drug users.
    We have more divorce.
    It's going 35%, 40%, 50% now.
    The Jewish family is hurting.
    And we're trying at utmost to keep it
    together because of the forces in society.
    Let's face it, we don't have a very healthy society
    in some ways.
    I mean just look at television.
    I mean look around us.
    We don't have substitutes that can give kids something to do.
    I mean I think boredom is the number one problem in America.
    They don't know what to do.
    I mean really, that's the cause of more problems.
    So they go to television, or they go to the street.
    Or they going to cults.
    I did a study of cults once.
    And I found that most people joined religious cults
    because they were searching for a family, something to do.
    So that's a serious problem for the whole society what can
    you do.
    I've totally forgot your question by the way--
    [LAUGHTER] what the hell I was talking about.
    That's typically Jewish, right?
    To get off on a little spiel, like George burns.
    I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
    No, have a sense of humor.
    Listen, we're not going to change the world, right?
    But we can make a big impact.
    So don't listen to the experts.
    Listen to what's in your heart, you know.
    Yes.
    Why is it easier for a Jew to be able to talk about the Holocaust
    and be accepted and talking about that?
    I can think in terms of the Holocaust
    that included the Gypsies and the homosexual in Nazi Germany.
    I think in terms of the Holocaust of the Black person
    that never gets really told in the whole era of slavery,
    the Armenian massacre.
    I think in terms of the Great Hunger in Ireland,
    and you touched on the Great Hunger,
    when 25% of the Irish, quote, "race"
    was exterminated because of a policy.
    If I talk about that, even among Irish,
    they think he's a romantic.
    He's a patriot.
    He's a gunrunner.
    He's an IRA terrorist, or something like that.
    But yet the Jew talks about that, and we all listen.
    And we rightfully should.
    But we're not telling the story of man's inhumanity to man.
    Well, we should.
    I mean there is a course.
    Maybe you can invite her, help help her spread the word,
    she has spread--
    Margot Strom in the Brookline school system
    has set up something called "Confronting History
    and Ourselves," which is the history of genocides
    and Holocaust of all peoples.
    And she brings in teachers from all over the country.
    I can give you her name and afterwards.
    So there are attempts.
    Now, it's curious that you say that your own people,
    the Irish themselves, don't want to hear it.
    I don't understand that.
    Why they, themselves, if they were the victims
    don't want to hear it, while we Jews,
    maybe we grovel in it too much, you know.
    I'll be honest, sometimes we get a little carried
    away with this victim role, as do the Armenians too.
    I don't understand why do they react that way?
    I don't know.
    Because a lot of the things you say
    the Jew is, we're the opposite.
    We never waged war outside--
    we're neutral.
    Always have been in Ireland.
    We never waged a war outside of Ireland.
    We always fought for our freedom there.
    Yet when we come here, we embrace the country.
    We come with the best soldiers in the world,
    any place in the world, France, Germany, the United States,
    the Irish person transplanted is the greatest medal
    of honor of background in this country.
    We're in the police departments all over this country.
    We've embraced the country.
    Yet we don't deal with that from our heritage.
    I don't understand the whole thing.
    Well, it goes back to what I keep saying.
    We are all minorities.
    We all have to educate everyone about the fact
    that we suffered as minorities.
    And this is a job that, despite the obstacles,
    we have to teach people, all peoples, even those who think
    they're not a minority anymore.
    Anyway.
    Yes.
    Sir, Jewish humor has always been very popular,
    many popular Jewish humorists.
    And it's been widely accepted, more so I think,
    than other ethnic jokes even within the Jewish community.
    I was just wondering, in your own mind,
    do you think that this acceptance of the humor
    is a way of overcoming a so-called spiritual sadness?
    Yeah, I think humor is a way that the Jews have survived.
    In fact, at the height of the ghettos in the Nazi era,
    you had many jokes, and what we call black humor.
    Jokes about going to the gallows, ha, ha, ha, you know.
    It was not very funny.
    But you know we have that.
    Many groups have humor to deal with.
    And that's the way that they have survived.
    Yeah.
    There was another question?
    Well, getting back to what Mr. Hayes was saying,
    I think that I find that amongst Jewish people,
    there's a lot more pride within themselves
    than a lot of other people.
    We have it.
    But I think that when people don't
    want to relate to these things because I think sometimes
    if that they feel ashamed.
    And I think that what has to be done
    is that people have to have more pride in themselves
    and putting these things out there.
    I mean even after 20, 30 years of Black protest,
    Black education, you still find that young Black people still
    do not have that pride?
    There's still some people out there that don't even
    know what's going on.
    That's too bad.
    And they don't know what progress has been made.
    And that's because that the educational factor that people
    have not been able to reach.
    Well, that's what I say that we Jews every year during Passover
    have to remind ourselves that we are once slaves under pharaoh.
    Every generation, every year, you
    have to keep reminding yourselves and the newer
    generations too because they will forget.
    Because, see, the Black community especially
    that young people do not know what sacrifices
    have been made, not only nationally wide, but from people
    within their own community.
    That's right.
    And I think that this is something that's sorely
    needed in the Black community.
    That's right.
    Doctor, you mentioned how important for us to,
    as a source of source of strength, is our religion.
    Now, Willis, I couldn't think of a finer role model
    from the Black community than yourself, one of the finest.
    For 2.5 hours, I was in Roxbury Sunday morning.
    And there was a tremendous amount of pride.
    There's a work ethic and there's a lot of really decent people.
    I would suggest obviously we need
    more of that in every community, whether it's
    South Boston, Roxbury.
    But maybe it's time for us in this police department
    to reach out to all those young people.
    The one thing I did notice was the absence
    of real young children.
    The adults were there.
    I mean I just throw that out that perhaps we as a department
    should consider getting more involved in all the churches,
    whether it's in Roxbury, or whatever religion.
    Because I get concerned, I get concerned about values.
    I don't know how would we define values today.
    I have a sense of values.
    And I keep thinking of that TV that we talked about.
    Imagine a kid, 25 years looking at a TV
    and he's now in the police academy.
    I don't know what he thinks.
    I think the police athletic program,
    just Dr. Nusan said, police athletic program
    in New York City has been a great inspiration all the way up
    the line and has contributed a lot of basketball players,
    a lot of scholars also.
    And I think that with the inception of this program,
    I think with our work, hard work and dedication,
    I think we can do that in this city.
    And I think that that's what--
    with the founding of that BAL, I think
    it can reach-- the program can take the negative attitude away
    from young kids and show them what we're really all about.
    And I think if this program moves forward
    with the right people and doing the right thing,
    I think it can be done.
    I think you're right.
    I agree.
    Yeah.
    We'll just ask the last--
    One last question, OK.
    A humorous way of asking a serious question--
    That's the best way.
    What was the role of our good holy father
    the Pope in the Catholic Church during the Holocaust?
    Well, it's a serious question.
    I think I found out about Irish Catholics,
    they're more critical than we are of the church.
    It was not good, not good at all.
    The Pope during that time was an aloof, ascetic kind
    of man, a man who did not have the warmth and humanity of Pope
    John later and the present pope.
    And he acquiesced to Nazi policies
    for the sake of his own power.
    It was a selfish act.
    He was worried that Vatican would be destroyed.
    And it might have been.
    I'm not going to deny that.
    He had to make a choice.
    Was he going to see the Vatican and him in prison,
    or was he going to turn over 20,000 Jews in Rome?
    That's a very interesting ethical question.
    What would you do?
    I hope you never have to reach that kind of question
    in your life.
    That's one of the questions he had to make,
    and it turned out that he did.
    However, my wife's family and many, many other families
    Jewish families were saved by priests, by nuns,
    and by ministers for the--
    I just want to bring back the parallels,
    my father was excommunicated as a young man in Ireland
    because he was a member of the IRA by a Catholic priest
    and in the archdiocese where he lived.
    So the parallels here are terrific.
    Thank you very much.
    I appreciate coming.
    [APPLAUSE]
    Stay for a little bite to eat.
    Yeah, I will stay of course.
    To just wrap up our program today.
    I'd first like to just acknowledge
    a friend of the community who's very much interested in crime
    in the Black community and has had several seminars bringing
    people from the police department and community leaders
    together to speak about that issue.
    And that's Reverend Don Muhammad from Temple Number
    11 in Roxbury.
    Thank you for joining us.
    [APPLAUSE]
    Secondly, this is a low budget operation.
    And without the assistance and contributions
    from certain institutions and from again the assistance
    and from a particular individual,
    we could not have pulled this off today.
    So with that, I think the Commissioner
    would like to make a presentation
    to a friend of everyone here.
    I'm sure you're familiar with him.
    And that's Chief Paul Johnston of the Harvard University Police
    Department.
    [APPLAUSE]
    That's a surprise.
    Well, I talked about first friend, and he's a real friend.
    A few weeks ago I was at a banquet.
    And he still has that great love for the Boston Police
    Department.
    And he was most generous today.
    And again, for his assistance and providing resources,
    I'm particularly grateful.
    And I know you are because he was one of the finest that ever
    served the Boston Police Department, our friend Paul
    Johnston.
    [APPLAUSE]
    I just say that it's our pleasure
    to be affiliated with the initial effort
    of the Distinguished Speaker Series.
    And if we can ever be of any help in the future,
    I know you won't hesitate to ask.
    Thank you very much.
    [APPLAUSE]
    When I think back on Paul and his career in the department,
    I always thought he had so much command, presence,
    like a Bob Faherty.
    Of course, we now get Joe Carter.
    He's got that big powerful voice too.
    Very briefly, as we conclude, thank you very, very much.
    It's been very interesting to me.
    And I hope interesting to you and perhaps useful.
    I know my mind was stretched a little bit.
    And I think that's what this is all about.
    As we move ahead in 1987, I hope we
    will have a distinguished guest lecturers, like the doctor,
    and Dr. Poussaint, because I think
    this will enhance our image as a police department,
    but more importantly, enhance our thinking
    and kind of globalize our approach to policing.
    Thank you very much.
    [APPLAUSE]
    One last thing, there is lunch for you outside.
    It's buffet style.
    Please partake of it.
    It was quite expensive that we did not get that for nothing.
    And lastly, if you have any suggestions on speakers,
    locations, any ideas relative to the program,
    please feel free to get them to me.
    Captain Laugherty was like a Dr. Ruth.
    [LAUGHTER]
    We can arrange that.
    And merry Christmas and happy new year to everyone.
    Thank you.
    [APPLAUSE]

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Dr. Jack N. Porter
    Date
    interview:  1986 December 19

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    1 videocassette (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
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    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Porter, Jack.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The video "Harvard Law School Distinguished Speakers Series: Dr. Jack Porter" was produced on December 19, 1986, by the Holocaust Survivors Project of Newton, Mass., as part of a project to document the testimonies of Holocaust survivors in the Newton, Mass., area. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received a copy of the interview from Dr. Jack Porter.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:16:41
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    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn512567

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