Oral history interview with Adam Munz

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1991.A.0119.2.2 | RG Number: RG-50.052.02.0002

: We could just keep going, almost done this whole section.
: And then we'll get home.
: I'd like to do that.
: Sorry.
: OK.
: So we'll try that one.
: OK, whenever you're ready.
: OK.
: On August 5, 1944, you arrived here
: and saw the six-foot-high chain link
: fence topped by three strands of barbed wire.
: What was your initial reaction?
: Well, another fence, another device
: to keep one in, to prevent one from going out.
: I noticed that some of the older people who
: had spent considerable time in concentration camps
: were much more upset about the fence
: than I seemed to have been.
: I guess, to them, the fence meant the concentration camp.
: I couldn't imagine that we would be living under conditions
: that were similar to that.
: But it was a fence.
: There were guards.
: And we needed a pass, we were told.
: And we were quarantined for a while.
: And there were people on the other side
: of the fence talking to us.
: We were inside.
: And there was this barrier.
: I guess the barrier was symbolic of many other things--
: the new culture, strangers coming into a small town,
: and so on.
: It was disconcerting.
: I wasn't panicked by it.
: Some people were very upset.
: Now, there were a lot of people who came to Oswego.
: And they had family who were living in the States.
: Yes.
: They were not allowed in for the first time--
: No.
: --because of the quarantine.
: It must have been family reunions
: through this chain link.
: Through the fence, that's right.
: And they were quite moving.
: And people reached over-- it was higher than this one-- reached
: over, and tried to touch, and tried to exchange things,
: and so on.
: It was a very emotional kind of interaction.
: I remember interacting with some of the townspeople, some
: of the young kids, talking to them.
: Very few people spoke English.
: And those of us who did sort of translated for everyone.
: Yet we were able to talk.
: People were not being kept away.
: We could communicate.
: In addition to the tough barrier that this was,
: you tell a funny story because you
: had been given a dime on board the Henry Gibbins.
: And you got to this fence.
: Yes.
: And you met some American kids.
: What happened?
: Well, it was just about on the spot here, or very close to it,
: there was a recreation hall.
: And we had sort of scouted around
: and found some ping-pong tables with the nets
: and the paddles, no ping-pong balls, no table tennis balls.
: And as you mentioned, I had received a silver dime,
: a Roosevelt dime, from one of the soldiers on the boat.
: And one of the youngsters with a bicycle,
: standing on the other side of the fence,
: sort of seemed to be interested in us.
: And I asked him if one could get a ping pong ball.
: Those were almost impossible to get in Europe.
: They're made of casein.
: And milk and cheese products were not available.
: And I dug into my pocket.
: And I took out the dime.
: And I said, can you get me a ball for that?
: And he said, oh, sure, I'll get you several.
: And so I passed the dime through the fence.
: And he hopped on his bicycle.
: Away he went.
: And we continued to talk.
: And a few minutes later, he came back on his bicycle
: and tossed the little Brown bag over the fence.
: I picked it up and there were three ping-pong balls
: for a dime.
: And I was so elated--
: I didn't speak English terribly well.
: And I was so pleased, I said to him, John, you are a big ass.
: And I could hear the hush suddenly falling over the group
: standing there.
: And I knew I had said the wrong thing.
: And he was wise enough to say, what did you mean, Adam?
: I said, well, you're a big ass.
: He says, what do you mean?
: I said, during the war, the pilot that shoot down
: the enemy, he's a big ass too.
: So he said, you mean an ace.
: I've been telling that story ever since.
: It almost created an international incident.
: But obviously, it did not.
: But that was my first attempt at complimenting someone
: in this country.
: And it didn't go terribly well.
: OK, good.
: So do you want to get repositioned
: and use the tripod?
: That was great.
: Sound's real nice.
: Good.
: OK.
: OK.
: After the quarantine was lifted, September 1st, that day
: was a grand opening.
: Do you remember anything of that?
: Tell me about it.
: Oh, we all rushed into town, or as many of us
: as could, just to see what the town was like.
: The stores-- it all looked so quaint.
: The people, to us, to me, looked very colorfully dressed.
: Not unusual now, but coming from Italy and Southern Italy,
: particularly, where everybody wore black,
: all the women wore black dresses, to see red coats,
: and yellow coats, and all kinds of colors, scarves,
: it was a very strange sight.
: This was the new culture we were going
: to have to get adjusted to.
: And there was a big ceremony here on the campground.
: There was a ceremony on the camp grounds.
: I remember that very vaguely.
: But there was one.
: I don't know where I was or what I was doing at the time,
: but there was apparently a welcoming kind of ceremony
: right on the parade grounds.
: When you first got here and the abundance of food
: that was available, that must have
: been a shock, a pleasant one.
: It was.
: We had also come from a long sea voyage, about three weeks
: on the ocean, rather rough.
: And many of us didn't feel terribly well
: and weren't terribly hungry.
: So the food was a welcome sight on terra firma.
: And many of us had not had much to eat for several years.
: Food was very scarce, as you know.
: And everything was abundant here--
: the milk, and the bread, and so on, and the eggs.
: It was welcome.
: Many of us were sort of hungry.
: I'm sure.
: Beginning of September, you were allowed
: to begin a quasi-normal life in that you
: and the other youngsters were allowed to go
: to the Oswego public schools.
: That was a real big significant break.
: It was.
: And it was our first exposure to the American way of life.
: As it was, the first exposure to the Oswegonians to what
: these refugees were all about.
: Many of us didn't speak the language.
: And most of us didn't know very much
: about the American culture.
: And we were strange to them, as I'm
: sure they were strange to us.
: But we adjusted.
: Most of the people were very kind and patient--
: and the teachers-- and awaited for our explanations
: and attempted to understand us.
: And it became easier as time went on.
: How long had it been since you were in a classroom?
: Well, in Rome, I had been hiding in a boarding school, which
: had classes I would sit in.
: And I would sit in the back of the class
: and not pay attention, absorbed in my own thing.
: Formally, the last time I attended class
: was in Southern France about a year or more-- no,
: two years before we arrived here.
: Principal Ralph Faust describes, generally, the attitude
: as a thirst for knowledge.
: Yes.
: Yes, there was.
: I remember one evening very early after we first came here,
: when someone came into the camp-- it may have been Mr.
: Faust--
: to try and find out what kind of literature
: we would like to read.
: And people would stick their hands up in the air.
: And he called on them-- and Pearl Buck,
: and Cronin, and Steinbeck, and Shakespeare, and so on.
: I guess this is what he meant by a thirst
: for reading, a thirst for knowledge.
: And many of us had been totally deprived
: of any kind of culture for a long, long time.
: And this was an opportunity to reabsorb it.
: I must ask you about this fence.
: It's not, really, a very secure fence.
: And you, Adam Munz, were notorious
: for sneaking underneath the fence.
: Well, you know, the popular song here was "Don't Fence Me In."
: And I took that literally.
: There was a hole somewhere along the fence, where many of us--
: I was, I guess, one of the first to sneak under it,
: and take the train or the bus, and go
: into Syracuse, and from there into New York
: to see some friends that I hadn't
: seen since before the war and just to see the big city.
: Did your folks know you were sneaking out for a night?
: Oh, yes, they did.
: Oh, yeah, no, no.
: Yes.
: Yes, they did.
: They had to, sure.
: Is it remarkable that no one ever really snuck
: off and never did come back, no one escaped or anything?
: I don't think anyone would have dared.
: Remember, we came from several years
: of living under authorities that meant business.
: And I don't think any of us would
: have challenged authorities in a very serious way.
: Sneaking under the fence was one thing,
: but I think to totally disappear from the camp,
: I can hardly imagine that anyone would have
: undertaken that kind of thing.
: No.
: OK, good.
: Oh, I'm sorry.
: You were going to?
: No, I think they could have had this camp without a fence,
: and no one would have left if told not to go.
: OK.
: Let's change location.
: Oh, are we on?
: Almost.
: Does it carry this distance?
: It does.
: I suppose you want to know what basis they
: used for the selection.
: Yeah.
: So that's what I'll talk to you about.
: OK.
: OK.
: Do you remember Eleanor Roosevelt making a visit here
: to Fort Ontario?
: Oh, yes.
: That was one of the highlights of our stay.
: There were a number of occasions that remained fixed
: because of their significance.
: Her visit was one of them.
: Oh, I remember it very distinctly.
: She was so well-known in Europe and was so dear to us
: as refugees.
: And her visit was, indeed, a momentous occasion.
: She was exactly what we pictured her to be.
: I remember asking her to autograph my little book.
: She spoke very softly and very kindly in her typical voice.
: She gave us a ray of hope.
: Her coming here meant that we meant something
: to the American public, to the American government.
: Otherwise, Mrs. Roosevelt, the wife of the president
: would not have come to visit us.
: And that kind of buoyed up the place for a long, long time.
: Then she went into a couple of the barracks.
: And in perhaps typical Eleanor Roosevelt independence,
: she was being directed toward one barracks
: and decided to go to another one to make sure that she wasn't
: being only in the showplace.
: Was that?
: Right, she was a shrewd lady.
: I hear that that was so.
: I did not accompany her on her round,
: although I did speak with her in the recreation
: hall at some length.
: But I understand that that is what happened.
: But there were clubhouses, and there was a youth group
: as well.
: Yes.
: Oh, OK.
: What?
: Well, he just wants to correct real quick.
: That work out?
: Yeah, it was good.
: You can just stay right on out in there
: if you want to do a two shot.
: Yeah, that clubhouse was interesting.
: How did you know about that?
: Pictures in the National Archives of the youth group.
: Isn't that amazing?
: In Washington?
: Yeah.
: Oh, I have to go see that.
: Is that open to the public?
: Or do you need?
: It sure is.
: You just have to register as a researcher.
: At what, at the Library of Congress?
: At the National Archives.
: National Archives.
: Oh, I have to go.
: Do you remember any of the faces,
: pictures that were taken?
: Yeah, I have ordered the pictures.
: I ordered over 100 pictures.
: You're kidding.
: I haven't gotten them yet--
: $4.15 a piece.
: Apiece.
: Well, that's better than Sonnenfeld's.
: Yeah, because they belong to the public,
: they're in the public domain.
: And all you have to do is pay for the reprints.
: Right.
: So it's worth a trip.
: If you're ever in Washington, spend a day.
: And they will make copies of anything.
: They will?
: And you pay for them there or what?
: You can pay for them there.
: Oh, I've got to go see that.
: I do.
: There's a collection at Columbia University too.
: Yeah, mostly Ruth's papers, a lot of Ruth's papers.
: That I don't know.
: What I saw was from the War Department, some
: of the pictures-- they took aerial shots
: of the building of the barracks and so on,
: those kinds of things, our arrival and the train stopping
: over there at the trestle.
: Was that just still pictures or was there--
: The only ones that I've seen are still pictures.
: I don't know if there are any movie
: cameras, movie shots of it.
: I still found 50 seconds of--
: There's a train, isn't it, a train arrival?
: Yeah, a train arrival.
: Yeah.
: Yeah.
: I remember very little of that train ride at night.
: I remember arriving here.
: But I remember little of the train ride.
: I may have just zonked out and slept.
: Let me ask you about that youth group.
: There were lots of activities for all ages.
: And the youth group was a major part of that.
: It was.
: It was our way of getting together.
: It was where we learned English.
: It was where we listened to music.
: It was where we learned to dance.
: Somebody came into the fort and actually taught
: us the box step way.
: And we became avid dancers.
: And it was a kind of a place where you could go seek solace.
: You could talk your problems over with people
: and find the friendships that we had lost.
: Was there a real generation gap here?
: Was that accentuated by the experience here?
: It seems that for the youngsters, people
: of your generation, everybody speaks so highly
: of the experience, whereas the older folks, your parents'
: generation, had such a difficult time.
: I suppose that being older, they were more rigidified.
: And it was more difficult for them to make the transition.
: The younger people didn't have any trouble at all.
: They learned the language very quickly.
: They assimilated to the cultural changes very, very quickly.
: And many of them did not--
: memory is short too at that age.
: They didn't remember the deprivation to the degree
: that the older people did.
: And it didn't linger with them.
: And the older people, again, as I mentioned,
: earlier, they came to the camp and they were once again
: deprived of their freedom.
: Whether the kid plays soccer behind a closed fence
: or in an open field doesn't much matter
: as long as he can play soccer.
: For the older people, there was the psychological barrier
: of being closed in that I think preyed on their minds
: much more.
: Let's take you just too and I'll step towards him.
: OK.
: Let's start on two shot too and then go in.
: Do you remember that after six months, when
: you were in the camp, the newspaper that
: was published here at Fort Ontario, the Ontario
: Chronicle--
: Yes.
: --ran a contest for the youngsters?
: Yes.
: An essay contest.
: Yes.
: Do you remember that you won?
: Yes.
: Here's the banner headline in the Ontario Chronicle--
: "Adam Munz Wins First Prize."
: Oh, my god, I don't even think I have a copy of that.
: Well, you can keep that.
: I don't even have my glasses on.
: You're not going to ask me to read this, are you?
: I'm going to ask you to read part of your composition,
: if you would.
: Because I don't have my glasses and I
: wonder whether I should get them.
: Can you read it at all?
: The English is atrocious.
: I remember reading it several years later.
: And it is very stilted, but that's the best I could do.
: I'm not sure that I won on good merit.
: I have a feeling I won because there were not too
: many people who submitted articles.
: Well, there was a second and third prize issued as well.
: There was?
: Yes.
: Oh, golly gee.
: I haven't seen that in.
: And this is Sipser's cartoons.
: I remember him well.
: Do you really want me to read this?
: Sure.
: Sure.
: Let us take the example of a small little bird which
: you take and put in a nice and comfortable cage.
: You take well care of the bird.
: You give him his daily food.
: You give him some sugar from time to time.
: Then after a few weeks, when he's
: well-acquainted to the room he's in-- my god,
: the syntax is atrocious-- you close the window
: and let him spread his wings between the four walls.
: The little bird will like it at the beginning,
: but later, he will look with a sad eye
: through the glass when he sees his fellows enjoy liberty.
: You will be surprised when, a few years later,
: your little bird will die.
: He will die because he's thirsty,
: thirsty for liberty he cannot enjoy.
: So is every single being in the world.
: Not bad for writing in a language that's
: not your mother tongue.
: Well, but looking back, it's atrocious.
: I think, as you can see from the tenure of the article,
: this preoccupation with freedom, with being walled in,
: with being fenced in, with being unable to go out and spread
: your wings, in a way, for a 17-year-old,
: it wasn't the best thing in the world.
: And that's what was on our minds--
: the specter, also, of having to go back,
: you see, not just of being fenced in here,
: but of having to return to conditions that most of us
: did not want to return to.
: OK.
: I touched it up.
: Franklin Roosevelt died in April of '45.
: The war was winding down almost at an end.
: That must have had quite a deadening
: effect on the people here.
: What?
: It did.
: First of all, his death, per se, as the beloved president,
: the man who we felt was responsible for bringing us
: here, that giant of a democratic figure in the true sense
: of the word was now dead.
: There was a sense of gloom, first of all, at his death.
: Secondly, what will happen to us now?
: This is always the first question
: that we would think of.
: What now?
: We were very, very pessimistic.
: This new man who came on the forefront, Truman, no one knew.
: No one had any idea what he was like
: and what would happen to us as a result of the change
: in administration.
: Shortly thereafter, victory in Europe.
: Victory in Europe.
: And then after that--
: Brought joy, but fear again?
: Fear again because that, of course,
: signaled our having to return.
: The pact, so to speak, was that at war's end,
: we would be shipped back.
: Now, the war was ending or ended.
: And that meant that very soon thereafter, we would have to,
: once again, pack our belongings and return.
: In the case of the Munz family, we didn't know where--
: certainly not back to Poland.
: Belgium, who knew what we would find there.
: The whole specter of the return to Europe
: was, as I said yesterday, anathema to us, to me.
: Let me go back to newspapering for a moment here.
: You were greatly affected by the cartoonist
: for the Chronicle, Max Sipser.
: Tell me about him.
: He was a superb artist.
: In fact, I took some lessons from him in the camp.
: I admired his work very much.
: He was a satirist.
: I always looked forward to his cartoons.
: He was a kind human being, had been
: trained in commercial art in Vienna, was a nice gentleman.
: And he would draw and paint the caricatures of many
: of the people in the camp.
: And they're priceless.
: I wish I had one today.
: And you became an artist yourself.
: Many years after that.
: But even I have a picture of you painting a Buy War Bonds
: poster.
: Yes.
: What was that all about?
: I took some lessons here, correspondence lessons.
: I wanted to become an artist, a commercial artist, probably.
: And I was enrolled in one of the correspondence courses.
: And what you saw was one of the pictures
: that somebody came to take of me as studying art.
: Yes, I remember that picture.
: And you also did a portrait of your father.
: Yes.
: It was a pencil portrait of him, which
: now is in the permanent exhibit in the museum in Albany.
: It was a good likeness.
: I don't know how good art it was,
: but it was a good likeness.
: And it was done with a great deal of love.
: And I'm glad that it found a permanent spot.
: Well, very good.
: As a psychologist--
: Paul.
: Yeah?
: It's the end of the tape.
: OK, let's change.
: That's a good place to change it.

: Can't really.
: Told me--
: It can't be.
: I'm terrible at that.
: I failed Boy Scout that merit badge.
: There's one tree where the cemetery is, that huge one.
: As a psychologist today, you can look back and clearly see,
: I think, the roller coaster of emotions
: that you folks had to endure.
: There was such joy at coming to the country,
: bringing back down when you see the fence, joy
: when Eleanor Roosevelt comes, fear
: and trepidation when FDR dies.
: It was a real roller coaster.
: It was.
: On the other hand, I think, this is
: what life is about too-- perhaps not as dramatic
: and with as many highs and lows.
: But life isn't a very smooth road, either.
: And the pains, and the sorrows, and the joys, perhaps,
: were not what they were like during the war for us.
: But heck, it prepared us for the rest of our life
: to have to feel those, to have to feel sadness,
: to have to feel joy.
: I don't know whether it was that unusual.
: I think the living together, 982 people,
: with all of the problems that the different cultures,
: the different languages, the different backgrounds bring,
: I think, was a more impactful experience, perhaps,
: than the ups and downs, although each one of those
: stands out in my mind too.
: There were significant rivalries among--
: Oh, there were.
: --different nationality groups.
: There were.
: There were, no question about it.
: There were large gaps.
: There were laborers in the group.
: And there were physicians, and lawyers, and people
: who had been educated.
: There were people from varying cultures in Europe--
: Yugoslavs, and Poles, and Germans, and so on.
: And the groups didn't always see eye to eye on all things.
: Do you remember the incident where
: some of the German-speaking folks
: walked out of synagogue services when the rabbi was
: preaching in Serbo-Croatian?
: I remember hearing about it.
: I was not in that synagogue.
: I did not attend that particular one.
: I remember hearing about it.
: But I remember another incident, speaking of languages,
: that most people probably don't remember.
: It was, I think, on the first day we arrived here.
: I went exploring just to see what the lay of the land was.
: And I remember coming around this very fort.
: And just as I was rounding the bend,
: an open truck with a bunch of POWs, prisoners of war,
: German prisoners of war, were being wheeled out of the camp
: and out into Oswego in a way.
: They had been instrumental in helping to build this camp,
: I think.
: And the last remnant of them was leaving.
: That was a shock to me, to see the German prisoners here,
: with all the anger and hate that I felt for them.
: So there were a number of incidents of that sort
: having to do with language and cultures.
: Knowing now what you do, that there
: were nearly half a million German
: POWs brought into this country during the war years
: and 982 refugees.
: I have expressed myself to the effect
: that I'm very bitter about that part of it,
: that it was really, in the true sense
: of the word, a token gesture.
: Many, many thousands, perhaps tens of thousands more
: should have been saved in some way,
: should have been allowed to come in, even
: before they were liberated.
: I understand that arrangements were on the way, could
: have been made.
: I think the world did not handle this issue terribly well.
: And that goes from the church to the various nations
: to various governments, including the United States.
: I think a great deal more should have been done,
: not just for Jews.
: It must have been a real slap in the face
: to come and see German POWs.
: Yes, it was.
: Yes, it was.
: And I hate to think what could have happened if I had
: gotten my hands on one of them.
: It's difficult to imagine today what
: the hatred, and the suffering, and the pain could do to one.
: Do you remember the Dickstein congressional hearings?
: Very, very well, very well.
: You had an involvement in that.
: Tell me about it.
: Yes, I was one of the people that was
: questioned by the committee.
: And I remember that there were two congressmen, I suppose.
: One was from Texas, and one was from somewhere else.
: I remember questioning me about why my father was in danger
: of being arrested and deported.
: And he had one line-- was he a communist?
: Had he done something illegal?
: And each question that he asked me along those lines,
: all I said to him was no, because he was a Jew.
: Well, why did he have to hide?
: Because he was a Jew.
: Why was he running from the Germans?
: Because he was a Jew.
: And I don't think that man understood
: what I was talking about.
: And I refused to understand what he was talking about
: because the issue of our running was we were Jews, period.
: What else did they ask you?
: Did they ask you if you would serve?
: Yes.
: In fact, they asked, if I were permitted
: to come into the United States legally,
: whether I would present myself to the draft
: and subject myself to the draft.
: And I very proudly said, of course.
: And I did.
: I was the first, in fact, of the young men,
: when released, to wear the American uniform.
: I think it was 11 days after our official entry
: into this country that I asked for a speedy induction,
: and was taken, and was sent to, eventually, Fort McClellan,
: Alabama for my basic training.
: There was joy after the hearings because that subcommittee
: recommended that you be allowed to stay.
: Yes.
: And then a few months later that got shot down.
: Yes.
: Once again, that up and down.
: The ups and downs, yes.
: There was despondency here often because of the ups and downs.
: And it reached a real peak during the winter
: because of the harshness.
: And it resulted in a suicide.
: Yes.
: And that was followed by a tragic work
: accident, Robert [? Buchler. ?]
: I'm not sure.
: Is that the chronology?
: You probably know better than I do.
: Yes, that one was a shocker to the camp.
: I don't remember the suicide.
: But I do remember the death of [? Buchler ?]
: on the coal pile, which was right near the entrance
: to the fort.
: That was a horrible, horrible event.
: And the reaction was almost en masse to that event--
: a man who had escaped from the horrors of the war
: comes to this free country and dies
: so senselessly in an accident that was no one's fault.
: But perhaps he shouldn't have been on a coal pile.
: He was not a laborer.
: He didn't know what he was doing.
: And all of a sudden, that was it.
: That was the end of him.
: There was a backlash, evidently, of people
: who had not previously wanted to work and said, see, he worked.
: Yes.
: I don't know.
: You see, I was not that close to the working issue at my age.
: There were a number of people who did not want to work.
: They felt they came to this country
: as guests of this government and shouldn't work.
: We did not know that the group was selected partly
: on the basis of it being potentially self-sufficient.
: I remember, my father always worked hard all his life.
: And he worked hard in the camp here in the kitchen,
: in the kosher kitchen.
: But there were a number of people
: who had professional lives back there in Europe
: before the war started and who didn't feel
: like working in barracks, stoking fires, and cleaning
: ashes out, and things of that sort.
: OK.
: I think I have just one other question.
: And we need a new location for that.
: Yeah, I'm just getting going here.
: Well, let me ask you this.
: It was December of '45 that President Truman came up
: with his answer, which basically said,
: you can come in under existing quotas.
: We're not going to lift those holding quotas.
: But we'll let you folks in.
: And he said, it would be wasteful to send you back
: to Europe, where, in turn, most of you
: would have applied for immigrant status anyway.
: That must have been some party.
: Yes.
: Yes, it was.
: The feeling of release from the worry of having to go back
: was phenomenal.
: It's a very cold winter, as you may know.
: And I, again, remember very, very clearly the morning.
: The light was not out yet.
: The sun hadn't risen yet, very cold, snowy morning, people
: with torches filming the events.
: We boarded the buses on our way to Canada.
: And there was a new sense of hope.
: There was a revitalization.
: The day had finally come to pass where we were going to be free.
: We were going to join that big melting pot out there.
: Did you understand then why you had to go to Canada
: to come back to the United States?
: Yes, I could understand the logic of it.
: But there was something so senseless
: about it having to be that way.
: But it didn't matter.
: You see, at that point, I would have done anything
: and gone anywhere to re-enter this country as a free person.
: And heck, it was a trip.
: And Niagara Falls is a beautiful place.
: It's quite a sight.
: And coming back, of course, for the first time being free
: and being literally free to go where we pleased
: and to become citizens, it was really all that mattered.
: And that was a joyous occasion for most of us.
: OK.
: Let's go on over to the monument, then we're done.
: OK.
: It stretched out to about two and a half or three years
: of schooling.
: I couldn't have gone to school otherwise.
: My family had very little.
: My father had to start all over again.
: And what business did your father go into?
: My father was a kosher butcher in Antwerp.
: Came here, they told him, we want
: to get back to that dirty profession for--
: we'll help you to become a diamond broker.
: Most of his customers in Antwerp had
: been in the diamond business.
: So they trained him and he became a diamond broker,
: essentially, and did all right.
: Great.
: He's still alive.
: Wonderful.
: And I'm sure he probably had to go back to Antwerp
: after that on business.
: Dad?
: Yeah.
: I'm trying to think if he went back.
: I went back.
: Yes, I think they went back.
: He didn't go on business.
: He went back to visit the one remaining relative that lived
: in Antwerp, a niece of his.
: They went back with my mother.
: Yeah.
: And you didn't go into the new family business.
: Oh, no.
: No, I vowed-- my mother raised me on the notion
: that I have to become either a dentist or a lawyer.
: Maybe her aspirations didn't go to the level of a doctor,
: but no, I was not going to go into that profession.
: Well, I think they have a reason to be proud, right?
: Thank you.
: You did them well.
: This memorial now has been defaced,
: vandalized a couple of times.
: Yes.
: And chipped off, where Jewish is scratched out.
: That's very disturbing to me.
: I just learned yesterday that it had
: been vandalized after having been repaired following
: the first vandalization.
: It's a sick mind that must have done this.
: I don't think it should be repaired.
: I expressed myself very strongly after the first time
: that this should not be repaired.
: It is now part of the monument.
: And I think it is highly significant
: that someone, typical of the thinking that still goes on
: in this world, that someone should have done this
: to a stone monument commemorating
: an event of antisemitism to begin with that
: brought us over here.
: That someone should destroy the very stone
: that commemorates that, there's something
: sick and sickening about it.
: And I think it should stay as it is.
: If it needs to be further protected,
: perhaps it ought to be taken indoors.
: But I don't think it should be repaired.
: OK.
: OK.
: You tell me.
: That look OK?
: OK, ready.
: And go.
: When you see the monument vandalized like this,
: must break your heart.
: Yes, it does.
: And it's apparently been vandalized for the second time,
: I understand.
: They repaired some of it following
: the first vandalization.
: It's disheartening because the reason those 982
: people, including myself, came here
: was because of a kind of vicious murderous antisemitism.
: I can't help but think that the kind of individual
: that would destroy a memorial of this kind,
: and try to obliterate the word Jewish,
: and have to chop a monument to pieces
: is made of the same fiber that caused us to have
: to come here to begin with.
: I don't think the monument should be repaired.
: I think the monument ought to stay
: the way it is because it not only should commemorate
: the fact that we were brought to this country, and saved,
: and given shelter, but that there are still
: people around who have the kind of sick minds,
: and larceny, and antisemitism in their hearts
: to have to destroy a monument of this sort.
: OK, wonderful.
: Great.
: That's great.
: You want a two shot there with both of us?
: And then I'll start getting threatening letters, right?
: Yeah, right.
: Well, Steve should be right back.
: OK.
: Yeah, sure.
: OK.
: What do you want me to do?
: That's OK.
: Does that help?
: Yeah.
: OK.
: All right.
: Adam, just tell me what you see in your mind's eye.
: OK.
: The configuration has changed to a large extent.
: We're standing probably on the spot
: where one of the administration barracks stood.
: The kitchens were lined up this way.
: The entrance is facing over there.
: And there were a series of barracks going around there,
: facing this way, with the entrances.
: There was a road going alongside the fort and around the fort,
: and along that street, a number of brick buildings
: which were the officers' quarters.
: The parade grounds were different.
: There was a dip into it that was more pronounced than it
: is here.
: And I remember, some of the buildings from that time
: are still standing.
: The theater we used is over there.
: The hospital, I don't see.
: I think that's been taken down.
: But there are a number of the other buildings
: there that existed then and that are still here.
: And I remember the-- was it Fitz?
: Fitzgibbons factory or something like that?
: Yes, they made boilers before the war,
: but during the war, manufactured tanks.
: And I remember the noises coming out of the factory
: quite clearly, quite distinctly.
: Can you see people and hear people
: when you look at the grounds like this now?
: I almost can.
: I almost can.
: I played soccer on that field.
: And your barracks was where?
: My barrack was right over there.
: Number?
: 161.
: You remember?
: Yes, first floor.
: And that winter, I'll never forget,
: I could have stepped out of my window on the first floor
: and slid down the snow into the street.
: There must have been piled 14 feet high the drifts.
: It was a very snowy winter.
: But oh, yes, I remember it very distinctly.
: We used to go swimming in the lake
: here right where those rocks are.
: The memories come back quite vividly.
: Oh, yeah.
: Great OK.
: And now, we have taken more than enough of your time.

Overview

Interviewee: Adam Munz
Credit Line: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of WXXI-TV

Physical Details

Language: English
Genre/Form: Documentary films.
Extent: 2 videocassettes (U-Matic) : sound, color ; 3/4 in..

Rights & Restrictions

Conditions on Access: There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
Conditions on Use: Restrictions on use. Excerpts of the interviews may be used for all on-site not-for-profit purposes to the extent of fair-use. Permission must be granted by the interviewees for any uses beyond fair-use including, but not limited to, performance in a public program, an off-site exhibition; transmission, display, or performance on the internet; and any reproduction or distribution for third party use.

Keywords & Subjects

Topical Term: Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives. Holocaust survivors--United States.
Personal Name: Munz, Adam.

Administrative Notes

Legal Status: Permanent Collection
Provenance: The interview, conducted outdoors at the Fort Ontario Army Camp, with Adam Munz was conducted by Paul Lewis for WXXI's documentary Safe Haven. The film documents the stories of some of the 982 Holocaust survivors, from 18 countries, who were interned at the Fort Ontario Army Camp in Oswego, NY, for 18 months from August 1944 to December 1946. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received the extant copies of the interview in July 1991.
Special Collection: The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive

Record last modified:: 2023-11-16 08:09:21
This page:: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn512586

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Also in Oral histories from the WXXI, Channel 21 (Rochester) collection

The interviews document the stories of some of the 982 Holocaust survivors, from 18 countries, whom were interned at the Fort Ontario Army Camp in Oswego, NY for 18 months from August 1944 to December 1946.