- Oh, yes.
- And Leon.
- Oh, yes.
- He's cute.
- And then we go to Salt Lake City to talk with Joseph Smart.
- Oh, and so I couldn't.
- I see.
- And then we're going to meet--
- He must be quite elderly too.
- Yeah, sure.
- And then we'll meet--
- who will we meet--
- Ralph Manfred, who's going to be in Chicago.
- So we're going to meet him there.
- Oh.
- So it'll be fun.
- I see.
- Yeah.
- OK, I think he's ready for us.
- OK, ready.
- OK, let's just start walking.
- Steffi, that August 5, 1944, that morning when
- you arrived at the camp and saw this six-foot-high chain link
- fence, three strands of barbed wire
- on top, what was your reaction?
- Well it's not exactly what we had expected.
- It was ah, there's a fence.
- What's happening?
- Is this a camp?
- Or what are we coming to?
- It was a little bit of a surprise, I might say.
- But well, there was much excitement, though.
- And as we came up and through the fence and into the camp
- itself, there were many people, lots of excitement.
- People were given sheets, and towels,
- and assigned to their barracks, and the suitcases
- gathered, and all types of things like that.
- There was much hustle-bustle about.
- And what was happening at the fence?
- People from Oswego were at the fence at the end?
- Well, at the fence, at the part of the fence that
- was near the town itself, people, in the following days
- and weeks, came to see us, to see what had arrived there
- in their small, peaceful town.
- And they were very friendly.
- And they wanted to see who we were and what we were.
- And they brought little gifts and I think some food.
- And things were exchanged over the fence.
- And as much as people could talk English at the time,
- they talked to each other.
- And it was quite an interesting experience.
- Well, why don't you walk over here with me?
- This barbed wire is so reminiscent of all the hell
- that was going on in Europe at the time.
- Right.
- It must have really upset some people.
- It did.
- It did upset the older section of the people,
- and especially, the ones that had actually
- been in concentration camps.
- I, luckily, was not one of those.
- But that was a little bit of a shock.
- But I suppose it was explained later
- that this fence was there and the barbed wire
- not to keep us in or the others out, it was there.
- It was an army camp.
- And I don't think it was put there for us.
- So I think, as we came into the camp,
- and life evolved like a little community of its own,
- people started to forget, especially once we were allowed
- to come out into the town.
- We had a quarantine of four weeks or so
- where we couldn't go out.
- And that was a little difficult.
- There must have been family reunions at the fence
- because some people had relatives in the United States.
- I believe so, yes, whoever had close relatives
- that they would come to the fence in those days.
- And then later, they came, actually, to visit in the camp.
- We had also a couple of people who visited us,
- an aunt of my mother's and so on.
- OK.
- Do you want to change microphones or just hook
- up the?
- Fine, let's just keep going then.
- OK.
- The first Sabbath here in the camp
- must have been really special after all those years
- on the run.
- Most of the residents were Jewish.
- It must have been quite special.
- Yes.
- Yes, of course, to be together again,
- and to be able to demonstrate openly that you're Jewish,
- and be able to follow your religion,
- and be able to pray according to your own heart openly
- definitely was extremely special.
- And Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur just a few weeks later.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- Well, everybody-- like in a larger community, everybody
- celebrated in their own way.
- People were not all--
- not everybody knew everybody.
- You stayed within your barrack or with the people
- that you had made friends by that time, which
- were not all that many.
- And as I always say, this was a little community
- of itself and by itself and was not necessarily so
- that everybody knew everybody.
- On September 1st, they ended the quarantine.
- Right.
- Do you remember what happened that big opening day?
- Well, everybody got passes then and was
- allowed to go into town for a length of six hours.
- And of course, people were anxious to go out and see.
- And it was a big event.
- Do you remember when people came in from the outside?
- There were 5,000 people here that day.
- I must tell you--
- well, the day you say we arrived?
- No, no.
- On September 1st.
- On September 1st, I guess they came in and we went out.
- And yes, it was a looking each other over, I suppose.
- One of the big events--
- Just hold this.
- You just--
- OK.
- One of the big events was opening up
- the Oswego public schools.
- Right.
- That must have been quite special for you.
- You had not been in school for a while, right?
- Tell me about that.
- That was the most special event for me,
- when the schools opened up for us.
- And especially, Mr. Faust, the high school principal,
- personally came to the camp and spoke to all of us and said,
- you must come to school, and resume your normal life,
- and learn what we learn here in America,
- and become American students, and so on.
- And it was a whole new idea for me.
- At that point, I hadn't thought that I would ever
- go to school again.
- How long had you been?
- I was a little bit beyond high school age.
- How long had it been since you were in school?
- This was 1944-- six years.
- Wow, that's a long time.
- Six years, I got pulled out.
- I was meant to continue my schooling in Italy after we
- had gotten out of Germany.
- But that was not to be.
- And so I didn't go to school all the war
- years until we came here.
- And then thanks to the community of Oswego
- and Mr. Faust, especially, who really welcomed us and begged
- us to come and to do everything possible,
- so my girlfriends and I got together and said, OK, this
- is really what we have to do.
- Do you remember taking the tour of the school the day
- before school opened?
- Yes, I do remember that.
- We were taken around and shown this new building
- and this new concept, which was different.
- The whole high school concept was different for us
- than what we had experienced in Europe.
- At least I had gone part of my high school experience
- in Germany.
- And the whole setup is different.
- So this was a beautiful school.
- And we had assembly.
- And we were very impressed with Mr. Faust.
- He was an elegant and a nice man.
- And we all looked up for-- he was God for us,
- what can I tell you?
- You spoke a little bit of English already.
- Yes.
- So you had a special role.
- What was that?
- And what did you do?
- Well, I helped Mr. Faust in setting up,
- I suppose, the different students
- in their different grades because, obviously, we were all
- different ages and had all different school
- years behind us--
- some more, some less, and so on.
- And he had this tremendous task of putting these youngsters
- into his school and fitting them into the right programs.
- And succeed he did.
- And we were happy to give him a hand wherever he needed it.
- One of the junior high refugee students
- was even elected class president.
- And you and several of the others
- made the National Honor Society.
- You did pretty well as a group.
- Yes, I suppose we did.
- We were anxious.
- We were desirous to learn.
- And we enjoyed it.
- It was a wonderful experience.
- And we were propelled forward.
- And I myself, together with five other in my group, actually
- graduated within one year.
- Mr. Faust made it all possible because we took various courses
- in one year that usually takes three and four years to take.
- That must have been a proud day for you.
- It was.
- It was.
- We took the Regents exams, the New York Regents exams.
- And again, we had to get sufficient points in order
- to achieve this and to be graduated
- from Oswego high school.
- And we took language exams that Mr. Faust ordered from Albany.
- And we got enough points.
- We passed the exams.
- And there we were at the commencement exercises
- in Oswego.
- It was wonderful.
- Great.
- It was a great day.
- Let's change locations for the next question.
- OK.
- Are we out of frame?
- OK.
- OK.
- Tell me about the reaction of the people of Oswego.
- Was there any antisemitism that you felt at all?
- I personally never experienced any of that.
- I don't know whether it was really
- antisemitism, or anti-foreigners, or anti a lot
- of people suddenly having invaded
- this peaceful little town.
- I don't know.
- But I heard about it.
- But I certainly never experienced it in any way.
- It's such a beautiful day today here.
- But the winter time that you spent here was awfully rough.
- Oh, yes.
- Yes.
- Tell me about that winter of '44, '45.
- Those winters were not easy.
- The wind was blowing from the lake.
- And it was ice bitter cold.
- And the snow was on the ground high.
- And the icicles were hanging from the overhanging roofs
- of the barracks.
- And it was a different experience.
- We went to school bundled up, and big boots, and so on.
- You weren't used to the cold weather coming from--
- Not that much, not that intensely, let's say,
- and that much snow.
- So it was cold, all right.
- But fortunately, the barracks were well-heated.
- And we had no problem that way.
- Good shot, Steve?
- Yeah, why don't you just move just a little farther this way,
- and that'll be great.
- OK, that's good.
- OK.
- OK?
- OK, give me two seconds.
- Sure.
- Take three.
- OK.
- OK.
- When you were living in the camp,
- you were so close to the real freedom.
- You could see the houses just outside the fence
- from the fort.
- Right.
- It must have been tantalizing?
- Well, it was.
- But I personally, I was young.
- And I had hopes.
- And I knew, someday, we would come out of this somehow.
- And after all, I tasted a lot of freedom by being out every day
- to school.
- I almost led a normal life by going to school.
- Most of my day was spent in Oswego and in the school.
- And coming back, I was intent on doing my homework
- and preparing myself for the next day
- so that I really had no time to think about that.
- And being young, you know, someday, there
- will be something else.
- And we didn't know what and how.
- And of course, you got caught up in this insecurity
- that pervaded the atmosphere by not knowing,
- will we be able to stay in this country or will we go back?
- But as I say, I could not let that rule my thinking.
- I was too much occupied otherwise.
- Was it more difficult for your mother and your mother's
- friends--
- Absolutely.
- --who couldn't leave to go to work or anything?
- Absolutely, absolutely.
- For them, it was more of a confined feeling.
- They did go out a little bit to town to look around,
- to shop a little, and so on.
- But it was not a normal life, really.
- You couldn't make a living for yourself.
- And after a number of months, and especially not
- knowing what the future would bring, the, at that time,
- older people were very concerned.
- And there was much nervousness about it.
- Do you remember that after six months when
- you were in the camp, the newspaper that
- was published here at the camp, the Ontario Chronicle,
- ran a contest--
- Right.
- --and asked some of the young folks
- to write essays on what it's like to be in America for six
- months.
- Right.
- Why don't you start on a two shot, Steve,
- and then just go in during the question?
- OK.
- OK.
- Do you remember that after six months in the camp,
- the Ontario Chronicle, the newspaper that was
- published here in the fort--
- Yes, yes.
- --ran a contest for the youngsters
- to write an essay about what it's
- like to be in the camp for six months,
- what it's like to be in America for six months.
- Do you remember?
- I thought that something was written in school or something.
- I don't really--
- It was in the newspaper at the camp.
- --I'm sure that you're right.
- You won third place.
- I did?
- You did.
- And I have your composition here.
- Oh, really?
- I wonder if you would read part of it here for me.
- OK.
- It's titled, "Since 6 Months, I'm in America."
- Sometimes, when I start to think how much I have changed
- in these six months I have been in this country,
- I really wonder what will have to become of me after a couple
- of years on American ground.
- Yes, I must have changed quite a bit,
- as everybody, Oswego citizens, and even
- Fort Ontario inhabitants, consider me
- as an American girl.
- More than once it has happened to me
- that on my entering one of our buildings,
- somebody has said, most politely,
- in a very gentle English, good morning or good afternoon.
- Read this part too.
- All right.
- I have learned to love this country, its people,
- and its customs.
- And my greatest wish is that one day,
- I can speak of it as my home.
- Well, and indeed, I can.
- That's a pretty good composition in a language
- that's not your native tongue.
- Well, thank you.
- I always enjoyed writing.
- I guess I started then.
- OK, good, Steve.
- OK.
- Let's change location.
- Oh, you have to actually--
- yeah.
- Actually--
- So I listen to it--
- --somebody--
- --and I type it up.
- --and type at the same time.
- Yes.
- Yeah.
- So I play secretary.
- I do it myself.
- Oh, God, yeah.
- Yeah, so it's tough.
- Yeah.
- This is now a lovely park for the City of Oswego baseball
- fields.
- What do you feel, though, when you come back and see it now?
- You can probably feel the barracks around you?
- Yes, indeed, I see them standing all
- around us, over there, and along the lake, where
- the mess halls were.
- It certainly looked different.
- And it was like a little home away from home at the time.
- And you had friends in various barracks.
- And you went to eat in the mess halls for a while, anyway.
- So now it's wide open spaces.
- At the time, it was a little town.
- You were telling me an interesting story earlier.
- Do you want us against the fence, Steve?
- Yeah.
- Will that be better?
- Let me just move the camera.
- OK.
- OK.
- You were telling me an interesting story, earlier.
- At one point, a New York newspaper
- came up and did a story about Oswego.
- And your picture appeared in the New York newspaper.
- That's right.
- And then you started getting letters.
- Tell me about that.
- Yes, that was a very flattering picture.
- I was young.
- And no sooner had that picture appeared in the paper,
- I started getting letters from fellows in the army,
- servicemen all over, primarily in the Far East
- and also in the States, who wanted to come and see me,
- and who started to write to me.
- And a couple of people came to visit me.
- But one particular young man started corresponding with me
- practically on a daily basis.
- We had these love letters flying back and forth every day.
- He was first stationed in Hawaii.
- He sent me, from there, a hula skirt.
- He sent me a blouse, which said, "aloha," all over and so on.
- And then he was transferred to Guam.
- And he wrote me every day.
- And I wrote him every day.
- And it really kept me going.
- It was my--
- I was looking for those letters, every day,
- when I came from school.
- And almost without fail, there would be one.
- And then he was worried that I would be sent back,
- because I had written him what our situation was
- and that we came here under the promise of going back.
- And he wrote me.
- He said, I am going to come home,
- and I'm going to marry you.
- And then you'll be an American woman.
- And you won't have to go back.
- And you had never met him?
- I had never met him, I had sent him a picture of myself.
- And I had gotten a picture of him but only
- after months and months of correspondence.
- But he wrote lovely letters.
- And it was ever so nice.
- And then, one day, I came from school,
- and I had a message to come to the administration building
- across this playground.
- And one of the ladies, there, told me
- she had a message from the Red Cross,
- about this young man, in which he
- asks for an emergency furlough in order
- to come home and marry me.
- Oh, my.
- He wanted to come.
- And he had asked for this furlough.
- And they asked me whether I considered
- myself engaged to him, which was really not quite the case.
- And I had not really lived.
- And I wanted to go out into the world.
- And I wasn't ready to settle down.
- He didn't tell you that he was going to do that.
- Well, he just had said, someday I'll marry you.
- But I had no idea he was going to do this.
- So this was really quite a shock.
- And by that time, our hope was very great
- that we would be allowed to stay in this country.
- And I responded that I didn't think it was necessary
- for him to take this emergency furlough
- and marry me in a rush, because I do think we'll stay here.
- And I'll still be around.
- So it was really quite--
- That's a funny story.
- In December of 1945, in the beginning of December,
- you still didn't know where you were going to be.
- Right.
- The war was over for several months, already.
- Yes.
- And you were still here.
- Right.
- What was that like, month after month, with no future in sight?
- Well, I don't recall exactly which month,
- we learned that President Truman had
- been able to get it through Congress
- that we were going to be allowed to stay in this country
- or rather to re-immigrate and come
- into this country as legal immigrants,
- rather than as guests of the United States,
- which we had been up to this point.
- So I think this came out, maybe, in October.
- I may be wrong.
- I'm not sure.
- But of course, one was anxious now.
- The closer something like this comes.
- Well, let me ask you this.
- Before you heard of that.
- Yes.
- And here it is, month after month
- after month of still living here.
- Yes.
- And still the government is saying,
- you're going back to Europe.
- Yes.
- That must have been challenging.
- Well it was very difficult for the middle-aged group,
- at the time, because 95% of whom had no intention of going back
- and wanted to stay here, had sons
- in the army fighting for this country and other relatives
- and so on.
- And they were really hoping against hope, at the time,
- to stay here.
- So it was much upsetness about for that reason.
- There must have been some party when you heard about President
- Truman's decision.
- Yes.
- Yes, indeed.
- Yes, it that.
- That was finally our release.
- And then things really moved quite quickly after that--
- amazingly quickly.
- Just as efficient, I had always said,
- as the government was to bring us in here
- and to set up this camp, including markers
- on each individual door within the barracks,
- quite equally efficient it was to then get us out of, here,
- with immigration officials coming in here
- and drawing up the papers, et cetera.
- And now, 40-some-odd years later, most of you folks,
- who were young at the time, have made incredible success stories
- of your own lives and made wonderful contributions
- to American society.
- Yes.
- What does that say about what happened here
- and what didn't happen in a bigger scale?
- Well, certainly, the younger folks, then, which is my group,
- now, for them, it was a terrific foundation.
- They went to school.
- They learned about American life.
- This was their first step in the right direction.
- And the older people, at the time,
- well, they learned the language much more fluently than they
- had known it when they came.
- And they were already on American soil.
- And I think it made it a lot easier to get a start once they
- came out of here.
- When you think of the whole Oswego experience,
- though, aside from, obviously, you're
- grateful, tremendously grateful to the US government.
- Right.
- But is there also a little part of you that says,
- my God, only 1,000?
- Well, of course.
- You feel, like you say, you're grateful.
- And at the same time, you feel a little guilty.
- Why me and not all these thousands and millions
- of others, who might have come and could have come?
- And we were the selected few.
- It makes you feel guilty.
- Because some suffered a lot more and were not able to come out.
- That's the pity of it all.
- But that's how the cookie crumbles.
- And it's sad.
- It's sad that so many had to give their lives.
- And I have very close relatives, myself, that never made it.
- My mother's brother and his family,
- his wife and two little children,
- perished in Auschwitz.
- Even though you're grateful to the government
- for your rescue--
- Yes.
- --are you angry that the government of the United States
- didn't do more when it possibly could have?
- I don't think I'm angry.
- That's the wrong word.
- Because I know what the laws were.
- It was difficult. It could have been different.
- And in retrospect, it's always easy to make judgments.
- I'm sure some things could have been handled differently
- and more people could have been brought into this vast country
- and room would have been there.
- But how much was known in this country of what
- went on in Europe at the time?
- I don't know.
- But those were difficult times and different times.
- And people were just not aware, I believe, for a great part.
- Super.
- Let's go on over to the marker, and then that's it.
- OK.
- OK.
- One year after you arrived in the camp,
- you were still here with no prospects
- of getting out to real freedom.
- Max Sipser, the cartoonist in the Ontario Chronicle,
- did a cartoon, here.
- Tell me about that.
- Right, it shows us, on August 5, 1944,
- arriving in New York Harbor and everybody enthusiastically
- waving toward the Statue of Liberty.
- And then underneath is the separate picture of someone,
- here, on approximately where we are standing, right now,
- sitting, facing the fence and facing
- this beautiful lake and the lighthouse
- and seeing, through big binoculars,
- the Statue of Liberty in the far distance.
- Meaning that even though we saw the Statue of Liberty,
- as we arrived, it is now pretty far away from us.
- And we can only see it in the distance somewhere.
- And that pretty much said what you all were feeling.
- That's what it was.
- We were in America.
- But we were removed from that freedom
- that we were all seeking.
- OK.
- Super.
- Let's set up the final shot.
- We can walk in and talk.
- Get ready.
- Go.
- For many years, there was no indication, at all,
- that the Fort Ontario refugees were here.
- And they finally erected this marker a few years ago.
- Right.
- It's been vandalized now.
- Yes.
- That is really a shame and most astounding that something
- like this should happen here.
- But it just shows what the world is like.
- And maybe it's a good thing that, with all good intentions,
- there's always somebody who has other ideas.
- And it's very nice that they erected this, in our memory,
- so to speak.
- And it shows all kinds of thinking.
- And maybe that's a blessing in disguise.
- Let's hope so.
- OK.
- Wonderful.
- That's great.
- OK.
- Do you recall if the train came in here, at the lakeside,
- or somewhere else?
- I believe it was here.
- I remember there was the rail, and there was an incline
- as we approached the camp.
- And there was the fence as you said earlier.
- But it didn't seem--
- it looked different.
- Everything looked different.
- What are you feeling, now, when you look around you?
- Well, I can't believe I'm here, again.
- It's quite an experience to retrace your steps
- and to come back to a place, where
- you were over 40 years ago, of which I think a lot
- and speak a lot.
- It's part of my life.
- Even though it was only a year and a half,
- it played, obviously, a great part in my life,
- in coming here and being here and going to school
- and making friends.
- And especially Mr Faust, whom I'm going to see later on,
- who is a very good and close friend of mine.
- And now, to actually be here, again,
- is quite wonderful and very emotional for me.
- It really is.
- Well, good, I'm glad we were able to get you here.
- It really did play an important part in your life.
- Yes, it did.
- It did.
- It really laid the cornerstone to everything that
- followed for me business-wise.
- I got into the business world because of what I initially
- learned in Oswego High School.
- And it's the beginning of my life here.
- It plays a very important part.
- It's part of my youth.
- When I started living a little bit
- and have other young people around me, which
- I didn't have when I was interned three and a half years
- in Italy during the war.
- Did you ever get to go inside the fort, itself,
- and see what was doing in there and what that was all about?
- In those days?
- Yeah.
- I guess we went in, once or twice, at the beginning,
- and heard about it but not that often.
- It's certainly a historical spot and really presents to me
- all Americana and is part of this country's background.
- Super.
- Very good.
- Thank you so much.
- This has been great fun.
- Well, it was fun for me.
- Well, good, I'm glad.
- Thank you for having me.
- Oh, my pleasure.
- This has been great.
- I will look forward to hearing from you.
- It'll be a while.
- But I promise, I'll let you know.
- Let me know in plenty of time, so I can alert all my friends
- all over the country.
- I promise.
- [BOTH TALKING]
- In fact, today, I have sent tapes to certain people.
- Some people don't catch it in time and so on.
- And then it's good to know, so that the people that do
- know make tapes.
- Sure.
- Of course.
- And I myself, of course, so let me know.
- Of course.
- Well, it's certainly been an interesting experience.
- Well, good, I'm so glad.
- I'm so happy to be here.
- Well, good.
- And I wish you good luck--
- Well, thank you.
- I'll need some.
- --for this monumental--
- I need some good luck, sure.
- --undertaking.
- I think maybe I can go run in and see if I can find Adam.
- You want to--
- I don't know if he's speaking right now.
- Would you like to wait a while and see if he's around.
- All right.
- All right.
- What do you do?
- You're walking in?
- Because I'd like--
- You want to get--
- I want the camera.
- OK, let me go get that.
- I'll go get it.
- Oh, I'll get it.
- It's in my car.
- I'll drive here, and then I'll drive around and right
- into the fort and see if I can find Adam--
- OK.
- --and bring him out.
- And maybe we'll see if we can have a little reunion right out
- here.
- That would be great, yes.
- And then we'll get you over to Mr Faust's house.
- I'll be right back.
- All right.
- I'm going take these with me and put them in the car,
- so we don't lose them.
- OK.
- I'll be right back.
- All right, Paul.
- Let me get this mic off you.
- Yes.
- I guess now.
- It sounded great.
- Yesterday, this wasn't working as well.
- No?
- Yes.
- Perfect.
- You're monitoring.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Mrs. Steffi S. Winters
- Credit Line
- United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of WXXI-TV
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Genre/Form
- Documentary films.
- Extent
-
1 videocassette (U-Matic) : sound, color ; 3/4 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- Restrictions on use. Excerpts of the interviews may be used for all on-site not-for-profit purposes to the extent of fair-use. Permission must be granted by the interviewees for any uses beyond fair-use including, but not limited to, performance in a public program, an off-site exhibition; transmission, display, or performance on the internet; and any reproduction or distribution for third party use.
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives. Holocaust survivors--United States.
- Personal Name
- Winters, Steffi.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The interview, conducted outdoors at the Fort Ontario Army Camp, with Steffi Winters was conducted by Paul Lewis for WXXI's documentary Safe Haven. The film documents the stories of some of the 982 Holocaust survivors, from 18 countries, who were interned at the Fort Ontario Army Camp in Oswego, NY for 18 months from August 1944 to December 1946. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received the extant copies of the interview in July 1991.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:09:21
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn512588
Additional Resources
Transcripts (2)
Download & Licensing
- Request Copy
- See Rights and Restrictions
- Terms of Use
- This record is digitized but cannot be downloaded online.
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