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Oral history interview with Leo Hanin

Oral History | Digitized | RG Number: RG-50.494.0012

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    Oral history interview with Leo Hanin
    Transcript
    How does it sound to you over there?
    OK--
    So, you hear a room noise?
    Yeah.
    It's that the pool?
    OK.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    [INAUDIBLE]
    [INAUDIBLE] [? coming from. ?]
    Yeah.
    I think we're good to go.
    Actually, let's just ask Mimi.
    Maybe we can turn it off.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Will we?
    Just a moment.
    Rolling on transcript.
    OK.
    Can you tell me where you grew up
    and how you ended up in Japan?
    I was three years old in 1916, when my parents--
    I was born in Lithuania in Vilna, Lithuania,
    when my parents decided--
    actually, they were forced to because they
    were worried about the anti-Jewish pogroms over there
    to leave Lithuania.
    And they went to Harbin, China.
    In those days, it was Manchuria.
    Why did they go to Manchuria?
    Why did they go to China of all the places?
    I often asked my father, and the answer
    was there was no where else to go, number one,
    and, number two, my mother's sister, her husband,
    and their family already were in China for the last five years.
    He was originally a soldier in the Russian army,
    and when he was discharged he was allowed by the--
    the tsarist government in those days,
    in order to so-called Russify the part
    of China which they occupied, allowed the Jews
    to go there and have a religious life and communal life
    and everything without any problems.
    So, after being discharged from the army,
    he was working in supplying the Russian army
    with the livestock, whatever they needed,
    and he did pretty well.
    So there was nowhere else to go, and we went there.
    It took us 33 days.
    I was three years old.
    My brother was four years old.
    My father, my mother, and their parents to reach China.
    Now, after six years in China, my father was--
    I don't really remember what exactly he was doing,
    but we were making a decent living, more or less.
    I do remember we lived in the outskirts of the town,
    and we had a cow.
    Father was milking the cow and selling the milk, and it was--
    as a children, I was growing up in a Jewish school.
    After about six years in that school,
    my father enrolled me and my brother
    in the Russian school, where I learned to speak Russian.
    Then in the year of 1929, I believe,
    after seven years in the Russian school,
    father decided that we should learn English because--
    he didn't speak any English at that time--
    because he understood that the international language,
    business language, was English, perhaps even higher education.
    Going go to university one day, we could afford to do that.
    So he sent us to Shanghai.
    Shanghai was an international city.
    I went there to a British school without knowing
    a word of English, but lucky I was able to pick it up,
    and then in about six months I could
    speak English pretty good.
    And I got my first job when I was 16
    in a firm that was importing textiles from England,
    from Poland, from Czechoslovakia.
    And then Japan came into the picture
    as a manufacturing place for the manufactured textiles,
    woven textiles.
    I got the job, I learned a little bit of the language,
    and they sent me to Japan to open an office there in 1930.
    I was 17 years old.
    I went to Japan, opened an office,
    and I used to get samples of English materials
    from Shanghai, which I would bring
    to the Japanese suppliers, Japanese
    manufactures, to copy them.
    And that's how I landed in Japan.
    I went back in 1936 and got married.
    My late wife was also born in China.
    My children were born in China, and this
    is how I landed in Japan, in doing that job,
    and that's the time when we got organized.
    We had a small Jewish community there.
    We were organized, and then we started
    getting telegrams and information
    about the Jews fleeing from Poland to Lithuania.
    And from Lithuania they got Japanese transit visas,
    and this is where the Jewish community was helping
    in getting those visas, guaranteeing their stay here,
    and this is how we started.
    OK--
    Just getting a plane coming in.
    OK.
    Rolling on transcript.
    OK.
    So, could you explain to me how you became involved with JEWCOM
    and who funded JEWCOM?
    And where did the name come from?
    In 1937 or '38--
    I think it was '38--
    we were a small Jewish community in Kobe, Japan.
    As I told you, I established an office.
    We were buying textiles from Japan, shipping to China.
    Some of the other people that lived there were doing almost
    in the same kind of business.
    About, I would say, 20 of us with the families with its own
    with children, wives, children, and we
    were just young people getting together,
    playing cards at night, and we were just getting together,
    social life.
    And then there was a gentleman by the name of Mr. Ponve.
    His original name was Ponevejsky.
    He was from Russia, also via China came to Japan.
    He also had an office buying textiles
    that were shipped to China to his brothers that
    lived in China.
    He was a very active man, a very fine man who
    wanted to organize things, and he got a few of us together
    and he said, look, we got to get organized.
    First thing, we're Jews.
    We have to have a synagogue.
    High holidays, Passover, and other holidays are coming.
    Let's get together.
    We got together about 15 of us.
    We talked about everything, and we decided that each one of us
    had to contribute so much money in monthly fees,
    and he invited a very interesting man.
    His name was Sam Evans.
    He was the only Jew that became a Japanese citizen.
    He lived in Japan for a long time.
    He was in chandlering business to the ships that
    were flying between Japan and America, England, et cetera.
    Sam Evans was a very interesting man.
    He was a very well-to-do man.
    When Mr. Ponve involved Mr. Evans to be helping us,
    together they put up some money, and we rented the home,
    a small home, two stories.
    Downstairs was a synagogue, which
    could hold about 40 to 50 people, no more.
    Upstairs were two rooms.
    I guess next to the synagogue were a small office,
    like an office.
    We had it there.
    We were keeping documents, papers, et cetera,
    and the name of the organization was called the Jewish Community
    of Japan, in brackets Ashkenazim, because Ashkenazim
    are Russian Jews.
    There were also quite a few people
    who lived in Kobe at that time.
    They were Sephardic Jews, Jews from Egypt, Iraq, Syria.
    They had little to do with us because they
    considered themselves in a so specific higher scale.
    They were British citizens, French citizens.
    Well, we were absolutely stateless
    people, Russian immigrants depending completely
    on the Japanese police with the permits that
    were needed by us for traveling, for marriages, whatever
    we needed just to have an organized life.
    And for the purpose of telegraphing and using
    shorthand, the Jewish Community of Kobe
    became JEWCOM, and that's how the name JEWCOM was born.
    From 1938, '39, we were just having prayers
    there during the high holidays.
    We used to play cards, and the girls played mahjong upstairs.
    It was a little restaurant, and we just
    create-- it was a club, until we started getting requests
    and started getting telegrams from Lithuania.
    We knew there was a war going on in Europe.
    We knew that Poland was divided between Russia and Germany,
    but at that time Lithuania was still an independent country,
    and a number of Jews from Poland, mainly religious Jews,
    escaped to Lithuania.
    Not escaped.
    They actually smuggled themselves out,
    and then we started getting telegrams asking us
    if we, the Jewish community, could guarantee
    their transit via Japan.
    For that, we had to go to the police
    and get their permission.
    I remember very well one Sunday, Mr. Ponve, the president,
    came to me and he asked me to be his secretary.
    I was the only guy who could write and speak English
    besides other languages.
    So he asked me--
    he showed me a cable, which was--
    I couldn't understand it.
    From Lithuania, all the places which
    said we have seven people names sounded German.
    They were German Jews.
    The need a Jewish community guarantee.
    All their transit through Japan.
    They were on the way to Argentina.
    They had visas.
    They were financially able to support themselves.
    All they needed was that we should guarantee that
    during their stay waiting for the ship to go to Argentina,
    that they were politically healthy,
    and that they didn't need any assistance, et cetera,
    et cetera.
    Mr. Ponve went to the police, and they told him
    it's all right.
    You can cable them.
    They could come.
    And they came.
    I didn't ever see them.
    Once, I think I saw some of them.
    They were on their own.
    We hired a Lady, a German Jewish lady
    who lived in Kobe, Mrs. [? Hochheimer. ?] She spoke
    good German, of course, to help them
    as much as they could because they didn't speak any English,
    only German, and she did.
    She took care of them.
    She met them at the ships, and she took them to Yokohama,
    and they were gone.
    After that, we started getting cables with number of names,
    and those were the Polish Jews that found their way to get
    Curaçao visas, to get Russian exit visas.
    Russia already occupied Lithuania.
    It became a Russian-Lithuanian republic,
    and we saw what was coming.
    We started getting many, many, many names,
    and it was our job, our duty, our desire to help them,
    and that's how it started.
    How did you get funding, or how did you help them?
    And how did you--
    Well--
    How did you provide them with housing and things?
    We had a couple of our people, a couple of our members
    that were going around with the Japanese brokers looking
    for houses, not in Kobe itself because it was
    difficult to find homes there.
    When we found out we saw there were hundreds of people
    are coming, it became a very, very difficult problem,
    especially there were hundreds of Talmudic scholars,
    young people.
    They had to stay together.
    I remember very well we asked our friends
    to find homes and measure the floor
    because in Japanese homes in those days there was no floors.
    They were what they called straw mats.
    "Tatami", they called it in Japanese,
    and measured them so how many people
    we could put to sleep on the floor with so many people.
    I mean, no beds, nothing, and that that's how it started.
    It was not easy.
    Lucky, our ladies, a woman my late wife herself,
    they got organized too.
    They collected clothes because some people were coming
    with children who needed help.
    Also, they were organized in such a way
    so that if medical assistance was required,
    children especially, they would get organized and take
    the children to the hospitals, to the doctors,
    and it was well organized.
    OK.
    And this is how we came.
    The Japanese police, water police so called,
    that used to go to the port of Tsuruga,
    where the ships were coming in from Vladivostok,
    they required that the Jewish community guarantee their stay.
    And the way we could do it is by putting our stamp.
    We had a metal stamp, the Jewish community,
    on it in Japanese, and in English, and Hebrew
    that we would stamp.
    So one of our members of our community would go to the dock
    to the ship to Tsuruga, and he would provide the stamp,
    guaranteeing each paper with their host community stamps.
    That's how we started.
    Must have been very expensive.
    Expensive?
    Well, at the beginning, if you were
    coming in the first 50, 60, or so, we could handle.
    But then we understood that it was impossible for us
    to financially support getting houses, and clothes, and food,
    and everything.
    So we sent a cable to the Joint Distribution Committee
    in New York.
    We knew of the existence of the Jewish organizations
    over there, and I remember very well
    the cable we got from them was, money no object.
    Save Jews.
    And they remitted us the first $25,000,
    which was a lot of money in those days,
    and that's how it started.
    Then when the first group of refugees
    started to come from Lithuania, in Lithuania
    the Jewish community was very organized,
    and representatives of the Joint Distribution
    and other traveling assistance organizations like HIAS,
    [INAUDIBLE] were there, the representatives from.
    And they came together with the refugees to Japan,
    and they got themselves organized to set everything up.
    And they kept their records because the orders
    were conjoined to financially support each refugee.
    The orders were to give each one of them one yen and $0.10.
    In those days, it was about $0.30, $0.28 American money,
    and that was enough for a family of four or five for them to go
    and buy the food that they required for their existence,
    but that was interesting.
    In those days, already difficulties started in Japan.
    Everybody was rationed.
    Rice.
    Not only foreigners.
    Japanese also, so you couldn't buy that much rice.
    You couldn't buy that much bread,
    but the representatives of the police came to us
    and they said, how many pounds of bread
    do you require every day?
    A pound per person, and every week
    we had to give them the numbers of people
    that we had living there, and every evening a truck
    would drive out with fresh bread, a pound per person.
    Of course, they had to pay for it something
    like 40 Japanese cents, which was like $0.12 or something
    like that in American money.
    Why were the Japanese so accommodating?
    [SIGHS] I don't know.
    I don't know.
    I read the book.
    I'm sure you also did.
    The Fugu plan.
    He explains over there the so-called Fugu Plan,
    which was a plan that the Japanese--
    let's go a little bit back.
    In the Japanese culture, the way I read, the way I understood,
    it is a thing that is called giri.
    "Giri" in Japanese culture means, if I do you a favor,
    you owe me a giri.
    You owe me a better favor.
    That is in their culture, and they go back
    into the history in 1904 during the Russo-Japanese War,
    the Japanese were running short of money
    to continue with the war, and they
    were afraid they were going to lose the war to the Russians.
    So they sent a man with the name of Takahashi, Baron Takahashi,
    to America to borrow some money.
    They needed a few hundred million dollars
    to continue with the war effort, and he was turned down,
    this Baron Takahashi.
    And the story is that at one dinner party
    he was sitting next to a man and he was very upset.
    He said I failed in my mission, so the man asked him
    what was your mission.
    He says I came to borrow money, and he says,
    what do you need the money for?
    He says, well, we're having a war with Russian.
    He says you're having a war with the Russians, yeah?
    Yes.
    This man goes by the name of Schiff.
    He was a very, very well-known financier in--
    [INAUDIBLE] Law was the name of the financial firm
    in New York, a banking firm, and he
    offered the Japanese government a loan
    of the money that required for them to continue with the war
    effort.
    And by that some of my Japanese friend told me
    Japanese owed the Jewish people a giri.
    They needed them a favor which was
    done to them to continue the war and to why did Mr. Hirsch offer
    them the money to offer them the money, because at that time
    there were terrible pogroms, killings of Jews in Kishinev,
    which is now Romania, I believe, and it was
    a very scary time for the Jews.
    Jews were murdered, and this man who was Jewish, Mr. Schiff,
    said you only need the money to fight the Russians, huh?
    He says yes.
    I'm a Jew, and I'm going to help you, and he did.
    I think there were four loans that came through for hundreds
    of millions of dollars.
    Whoa.
    And the Japanese never forgot it.
    So one of the things that I think
    was that they wanted to pay the Jews somehow,
    and the second thing is that there was a plan, which
    was evolved during the many years when Hitler started
    his anti-Jewish things in Germany, to bring 50,000 German
    Jews to settle them in Manchuria, which was then
    occupied by the Japanese on the border with Russia.
    The Japanese at that time, I think,
    thought that was going to be a war with Russia one day,
    and they wanted to have some people that
    were living on the border they could eventually
    use as soldiers but at the same time that would develop
    the place, develop the country, and at the same time they were
    so sure that if the Jews were there, whether they're
    from Germany or Austria, the American Jews who helped them.
    And that was one of the reasons they were good to the Jews
    as to show them.
    I remember very well in 1940 or '41 there
    was a party in the house of president, Mr. Ponve, who
    was on his way to America.
    He was leaving, and there was a dinner party
    at which were present the governor of the Hyogo
    Prefecture, where we lived, and other representatives
    of the Japanese police and authorities.
    There was one man who was in [INAUDIBLE] uniform,
    but I was told later that he was a major of the Japanese army,
    and they made speeches.
    Ponve thanked them for being so attentive
    and a reception allowing the Jews to come to Japan.
    And he said, you're going to America.
    Tell your American and Jewish brothers there
    how good we are to you, that they
    should reciprocate in some way.
    It's history, but it never worked out.
    They were thinking of bringing in 50,000 Jews
    to make the so-called Israel in Manchuria,
    but it never worked out because the American Jews did not
    go for it because they were already very anti-Japanese
    because the Japanese were going deeper into China, atrocities
    against the Chinese, and they were very much against them.
    So it didn't work out.
    Why did they do it?
    It was called the Fugu Plan, the plan that
    hopefully would be workable, but it never worked out.
    OK.
    Why did they do it?
    To me, I think I will die with this question
    that I will never answer.
    Really, really why they did it, but they did,
    and the Japanese consul gave the visas.
    Why did they give the visas, transit visas
    which he was told not to give?
    He was instructed to stop issuing visas,
    but they kept on issuing visas.
    Why?
    I don't know.
    I don't think anybody knows the real truth.
    It's for politics.
    It's whatever.
    OK, very good.
    Let's see.
    What was it like for all these refugees
    to come to Kobe, Japan?
    What do you think it was like?
    Were they full of fear?
    Were they happy?
    They were full of fear.
    They didn't--
    You have to tell me who you're talking about.
    OK.
    You have to start with who you're talking about.
    In other words, the refugees who came to Japan.
    You have to start with something like that.
    When the refugees started to come to Japan,
    I met some of them.
    I spoke to them.
    They said they were running away, they were afraid,
    they didn't know where to go, and that's the only place
    where to go.
    That's one reason.
    Another reason was they thought-- they hoped.
    Everybody had relatives in America.
    That's the only place they could go was Japan,
    and the only way that could go to America,
    if they would get the visas to come to America,
    would be from Japan.
    That was another reason.
    But what do you think it was like?
    Do you think that they were happy or full of fear?
    They were scared, they were anxious,
    but I saw some of them.
    They would come to the community to the JEWCOM for their mail
    or for some problems.
    They had some problems-- food problems,
    immigration problems-- and we could help them.
    We helped.
    We tried to help them as much as we could,
    and they were worried what's going to happen with us.
    We didn't know at that time.
    Remember it was 1940 or '41.
    It was before the Holocaust.
    They knew that Jews were being oppressed and put
    into camps in Germany, Austria, and Poland,
    but I don't think anyone at that time knew what was coming,
    that the Holocaust was coming.
    And they were just running away, and they came to Japan,
    and I'll never forget.
    I went twice to Tsuruga to meet some of them
    with the stamp to put on their documents,
    and the ship was coming close, and I was the only foreigner
    among the Japanese police and customs people
    that were sitting there to check their documents.
    And I could see this ship, and it was a small ship,
    and there were people crammed, small children, women,
    old people.
    You know, it was a pitiful sight,
    and I could see they were talking to each other
    and pointing to me.
    I was the only foreigner that was there.
    Then finally the ship came back [INAUDIBLE]..
    They were disembarking, and one of them comes up to me
    and says to me in Jewish, are you a Jew?
    I said yes.
    A Japanese Jew?
    I said yes.
    He says I got a big problem.
    I said, what is your problem?
    Don't talk to me now.
    The Japanese are watching us.
    Get in line.
    Whatever there is a problem, we'll see.
    We can straighten it out.
    He says, no, it's a matter of life and death.
    So I said, I tell you what.
    You go to the bathroom over there and wait for me.
    I'll be there, and tell me your problem.
    I went there.
    The guy was crying.
    I said, what happened?
    What's the matter?
    Are you all right?
    He says I'm all right, but all my documents are false.
    The Japanese visa is false.
    The Curaçao transit visa.
    Everything is false.
    They'll find out, and they'll send me back to Russia.
    I said, well, get in line and don't worry.
    When the time comes closer, we'll
    see what we can do because I already knew.
    I was told that some of the visas were false,
    some of the documents were false,
    and somehow the Japanese closed their eyes
    and let these people through.
    Anyway.
    When I came back, a Japanese policeman came up to me
    and he says, what were you doing talking
    to this man in the bathroom?
    I said, well, he was not feeling well.
    I had to give him some medicine.
    Did you give him the medicine?
    Yeah, I gave him some aspirin or something.
    OK.
    He was in line.
    He was shivering, the poor guy.
    The others were also worried, but it all
    went through all right because we put that stamp.
    I think that was guaranteeing their stay.
    10 days, two weeks, three weeks, whatever was necessary.
    They were staying in Japan.
    I'll never know the real answer why they did.
    It's hard to say why.
    It's history.
    OK.
    Do you have enough?
    Two things.
    I just ran out of transcript tape,
    and I'm just hearing a little something.
    I'm not sure if it's--
    OK, rolling transcript.
    So, let me just fix his shirt a little bit.
    It's a little-
    Did you have to do a lot of negotiations
    on behalf of these refugees with the Japanese authorities
    for permits and visas?
    I know that our president, Mr. [? Ponvi ?],,
    had to travel a few times to Tokyo.
    He was called over there to--
    he never told me what was the conversation about.
    He said it was confidential.
    So, with respect to him, I didn't ask him any questions.
    I personally was involved a couple of times
    with Japanese authorities asking permission for extension
    of visas for certain people.
    And there was a Japanese customs in connection
    with some religious matters.
    I had to go and negotiate with them
    to get certain permissions to allow
    to import some food for Passover for the religious people.
    Remember, out of a few thousand people we had there--
    We have to cut because of the helicopter.
    We can hear that and we don't have it on anything--
    OK, so unfortunately, I have to ask you the question again.
    But did you have to negotiate with the Japanese
    on behalf of the refugees for visas?
    I personally did not have to negotiate with them.
    I know that our president did.
    As I told you, he went to--
    he was called to Tokyo a few times by the government.
    Which department of the government, I don't know.
    And he would come back and say the negotiations were
    pretty serious.
    And they were always very accommodating.
    Whatever we-- what did we need from these people,
    from the Japanese police, mainly extensions of their visas
    to stay in Japan.
    And some of the religious problems that the rabbis--
    there were over 1,500 rabbis and yeshiva-- and the students that
    had some difficulties in the food problems,
    especially when it came to Passover.
    And I had to go and negotiate with the authorities.
    And it was very simple.
    It was very-- they were very understanding.
    Could you tell me the matzah story?
    The matzah story-- in 1941, I believe
    it was, in February, three rabbis came to see me.
    Why I was involved in these negotiations was because I was
    the only one of our eight or nine people
    in the [? Jew-Com ?] that could speak Yiddish, and English,
    and Russian.
    So they would come to me with their problem.
    They could only speak Yiddish.
    And they came to me in February and they said,
    Passover is coming in April.
    I said, yes.
    Well, what about matzah?
    What about the wine for Passover?
    I said, well, don't worry about it.
    We are also Jewish.
    We will require matzah and wine for Passover.
    And we will get it from the Jewish communities in Shanghai
    or in Harbin, where they were very well organized
    baking matzahs and providing the necessary food.
    They said, no, that's not good enough for us.
    I said, what do you mean?
    We need only matzahs, and wine, and other products
    that will be sent to us from New York,
    from the Organization of Jewish Rabbis over there.
    I said, well, what do you want me to do about it?
    They said, well, we prepared a telegram which
    they asked me to send.
    And I'm reading the telegram and it says,
    we, 1,380 or something rabbis and yeshiva students
    in Japan, Passover is coming, please
    provide us with the necessary food, matzah
    and wine for Passover.
    And I looked at the telegram and I
    said, what do you mean you say you're only 1,380 people?
    There are 3,000 of us here.
    Oh, yes, yes, yes--
    they apologized.
    I said, I tell you what, I'll send the telegram
    and I'll change it.
    Instead of 1,380, I'll put down 3,000.
    And I also put 3,035, because we 35 people who live in Kobe
    also want to have it.
    Oh, yes, yes, yes-- and I sent the telegram.
    It was in February.
    In April-- I forgot all about it, frankly.
    In February, I came to my office in the community.
    And there was a document, an envelope full of documents.
    I opened it up and there were bills
    of lading on various projects, like matzahs,
    five caskets of wine, and many other products, fish et
    cetera, et cetera, that were shipped from San Francisco,
    by way--
    the Organization of Rabbis in New York
    probably instructed somebody in San Francisco.
    And they-- these products were arriving about a week
    before Passover.
    The ship was arriving a week.
    So, I knew that importation of anything
    into Japan in those days was strictly forbidden.
    You had to have an import license.
    So, I ran to the Ministry of Finance.
    And I introduced myself.
    I told him what it is.
    They said, well, write us a letter from the community
    that these products are not for resale,
    that they're for special purpose only, for you people,
    and that you don't require any money
    to pay for these products.
    I said, no, the money--
    it's all donated, it's all free of charge.
    I ran back to the community.
    I wrote the letter, brought it to them.
    And it was accepted.
    I was extremely pleased and happy.
    And I spread the news, the ship is arriving in two days,
    the Passover is in four days, you will have everything.
    And it was good.
    But another rabbi delegation came to me the next day
    and said, we have a big problem.
    I say, what's the problem now?
    Everything is coming.
    They said, the wine, the five caskets of wine,
    if it is not touched by a religious Jew they cannot have
    it for Passover.
    I said, what are you talking about?
    The Japanese customs people will have
    to open them, and take a sample, and check it out,
    what's in those caskets.
    I cannot tell them that they are not allowed to touch it.
    It's discrimination, I cannot tell them.
    Well, you have to think of something.
    The question was-- I'll never forget as long as I live--
    do you want us to have Passover without wine?
    I said no, I want you to have wine.
    So, I called up a chief of the customs in Kobe.
    He was a very, very interesting man.
    I asked permission to have an audience with him.
    And my idea was--
    I asked the rabbis first--
    would be all right if the customs will allow you--
    two rabbis that I'll bring with me--
    to go to the dock to open the casket themselves?
    And I brought two empty bottles.
    We'll fill those bottles with wine
    and they should be the samples for them
    to see what's coming in.
    Will that be all right?
    Yeah, that will be all right.
    That'll be kosher.
    Anyway, I said that they should send me
    two rabbis, the most distinguished older looking men
    with white beards, et cetera, et cetera.
    They came.
    I took them to the customs man.
    And he was very, very interesting.
    He was a younger man, about 40s.
    I came up, gave him my card.
    And I spoke to him.
    I said, do you see these two people?
    He said, yes.
    Did you ever see such people in your life?
    He says, no.
    I said, they are Jews.
    I am also a Jew.
    But you see the difference?
    I have no beard, I have no clothing, I have no hat.
    And he says, what is it?
    I said, they are our teachers, our rabbis.
    They're holy men.
    Oh, is that right?
    Very, very nice.
    I said, the wine that's coming in is also holy.
    Only they can touch and only they can drink.
    Even I cannot touch it.
    He said, well, how can I help you?
    I said, well, here are two empty bottles.
    Please allow us to go to the dock.
    I'll go with them.
    They'll open the caskets.
    They'll take the samples of wine.
    And then everything will be all right.
    He called up, in front of me, he called up the dock.
    I gave him the name of the ship and which dock,
    et cetera, et cetera.
    He says two very unusual people are coming.
    Allow them to do what they're asking to do, open the caskets.
    OK.
    We went there and they were very polite, very nice.
    We did what had to be done.
    Just before we left his office, he called me back
    and he says, come back, come back.
    I came back to him.
    He says, look, I want to try this holy wine.
    I've never drank holy wine.
    I said, don't worry, you'll get it.
    So anyway, everything has arrived.
    And it was a relief, because for thousands
    of people that were waiting there,
    we had to organize trucks to deliver all these products
    to their homes.
    It was a big job to do.
    It was that.
    And I took a big basket and put their wine, and gefilte fish,
    and matzahs and everything that we received
    and they brought it to him.
    He was very grateful.
    I say, historically speaking, this
    is the only time in the world I think that a Japanese man has
    a kosher Pesach holy day.
    Anyway, that's one of the things.
    It was pleasant.
    It was not hard.
    Also, I had to do some negotiations--
    they were not with the Japanese police,
    but some of the fellows, the young fellows,
    the Polish immigrants came to me and said they would like
    to volunteer--
    the war was raging in Europe--
    to volunteer to the British army.
    They were Polish citizens.
    And Poland was an ally of England.
    And they asked me to go and talk for them
    to the British consulate, very confidentially,
    that they want to volunteer to the British army.
    So, I went there.
    And when I started to talk to the British consul--
    Mr. Thomson was his name, I believe--
    he stopped me right away.
    He says, don't ever come and talk to me
    about getting your people into the British army
    in this consulate.
    Japan is an ally of Germany.
    And I don't want my Japanese employees even
    to suspect that we are getting volunteers
    into the British army.
    I said, but don't you want these people to volunteer
    into the British army?
    He says, yes.
    This story we're going to do it.
    You bring to me a list of their names.
    We will meet-- by telephone we would
    arrange a meeting at a bar somewhere
    over a bottle of beer.
    Give me the names and their addresses
    and leave everything to me.
    I said, OK.
    And we did it for a couple of weeks.
    About 30 boys volunteered.
    I used to call them up.
    We would meet over a bottle of beer.
    And I'll give him the names and addresses.
    And they were gone.
    I found out later that the British--
    the British ships were still sailing between Japan, and Hong
    Kong, Singapore, India.
    And he would place these people on those British ships
    as cooks, as assistants, as workers.
    And that's how they were transferred into Singapore,
    further on to Italy.
    Some of the boys, I found out after the war,
    were killed over there on the Italian front
    in the British army.
    And that's how it was.
    Until one day this famous old man, the rabbi, came to see me.
    I was very concerned.
    It was in the evening, about 10 o'clock in the evening.
    He came and he wants to talk to me.
    So, I thought maybe he was sick or something.
    I came down.
    And he was sitting there they calmly.
    And he says, I came here at 10 o'clock
    at night to ask you a question.
    I said, what is the question?
    He said, you see, we are Polish citizens.
    Yes.
    We are allies with the British.
    Yes.
    What if we were not Polish?
    What if we were British?
    What would have happened to us?
    I said, well I think if we were British,
    the British government would arrange
    to send ships off after you and take you to some
    of the British colonies.
    Canada was still a British colony, Australia,
    many British colonies, and they would
    take-- he says, that's right.
    That's why I came to talk to you.
    We went for the British government,
    since we are their allies, to send ships after us
    and to take us out of here.
    I said, I cannot go and talk about this.
    Who am I to talk the British government, the British consul.
    He says, well, he says--
    he knew everything.
    He says, I know you're arranging things
    for our boys to join the British army,
    so you can do something about it.
    How he knew about it, I don't know.
    Anyway, I called up the British consul and I said,
    look, do me a favor.
    I will bring tomorrow a man who is from the 18th century,
    the way he's dressed, the way he looks.
    And please do me a favor, listen to him.
    He was very upset, you see.
    He says, I'm a British consul, I know how to do my--
    to do what I have to do.
    I said, look, I'm just warning you.
    And I'm asking you to have a due respect for this man.
    He's an old man.
    He said, just tell me when you're coming
    and that's all there is to it.
    The next day, the rabbi, with his son, came to see me.
    We took a taxi to go to the British consulate, which
    is on the sixth floor in Kobe.
    I called him up and I said, we're coming.
    He says, OK.
    We arrived there.
    And I was very, very surprised.
    The British consul himself was waiting
    at the bottom of the building.
    They opened the door of the taxi for us, which was very unusual.
    You know the British, they way they were.
    And we went upstairs.
    He listened to him.
    And the rabbi said, we are the Polish citizens,
    allies of Britain.
    And that was a very bad time.
    That was the time of the Dunkirk evacuation
    when the British were having a very difficult time
    against the war with the Germans.
    And anyway, he listened to them.
    And he said, well, I can't make this decision.
    I understand your problem.
    I'll have to refer this matter to the his Majesty's ambassador
    in Tokyo--
    Sir Robert Craigie was his name, if I remember correctly.
    And I'll let you know.
    We thank him.
    We went out.
    As we were going out, I asked the rabbi--
    I said, rabbi, if--
    by any chance, if there will be such a thing,
    if they will send ships after you,
    which is highly problematic, where would you like to go?
    He said, we want to go to Jamaica.
    I said, Jamaica?
    I, myself, didn't know at that time where Jamaica was.
    I said, why Jamaica?
    Why not Canada?
    Why not Australia?
    Well, he says the climate over there is a very good one.
    I knew there was something fishy over there.
    I went home.
    I opened my atlas.
    And I looked where Jamaica was.
    It's very close to New York, you know.
    So they thought maybe if they went to Jamaica, eventually
    they'll be brought by the Jewish organization
    to the United States.
    And that was the end of the Jamaica story.
    They never went to Jamaica?
    Oh, no, the British never sent ships after them.
    It was all forgotten.
    And then things started to develop.
    It was, I think, in June--
    in September, three months before Pearl Harbor,
    the Japanese military took over the jurisdiction over them
    from the police.
    And we were instructed, the Jewish community,
    to send them all out of Japan to Shanghai.
    It's the only place they could go without visas,
    without documents.
    And we had to send them all to Shanghai.
    Did you realize how important your work was?
    Did you realize how much hope you
    were supplying these people?
    No, I just knew that I had to do what I had to do.
    I was there in the right place and the right time.
    And not only I. I was the youngest one.
    All my friends that were helping--
    this one was doing that and that one was doing this.
    And I knew I had to do it.
    My wife was very active in this, looking after the children.
    And we had to help.
    What was going on in Europe at that time, we had a vague idea.
    But remember, this was before the Holocaust.
    The Holocaust came much later.
    And what happened, the tragedy, the millions of people
    that were destroyed, that's another tragedy
    that we didn't know at that time.
    They were very, very worried and scared to go to Shanghai.
    Because there were, already at that time in Shanghai
    were about 20,000 Jewish, refugees
    from Germany and Austria that were
    allowed to come to Shanghai over five, six years time.
    And they knew that they will not be looked after like we
    were looking after them.
    And the climate was--
    they heard the climate was not good in Shanghai and the food
    problems.
    But we had to tell them, listen, you have to go.
    And they went.
    What was the atmosphere like in Japan right
    before they dropped the bombs on Pearl Harbor?
    It was gradually--
    So tell me-- in Japan, before they attacked the US.
    I was in Japan in 19--
    at that time, I had a new job.
    I had a job.
    I was running an office.
    I was hired by women who came from Panama,
    a Panamanian citizen when I met him.
    He hired me to be the manager of his office.
    It was very unusual circumstantial evidence,
    which was called Curacao Panama Trading Company.
    Of all the names, Curacao was there.
    At that time, of course, it was way
    before the Curacao visas were here.
    And it was a Panamanian registered office.
    And my job was to oversee about-- we had
    about 20 Japanese employees.
    We were doing a lot of buying of Japanese products for shipment
    to South America--
    Panama, Chile, Peru, and Curacao.
    At that time, Japan was not as industrially oriented
    as it became later, after the war.
    We were buying all kind of sundry goods--
    toys, shirts, shoes, rubber boots, [? bath ?] clothing,
    all simple things that the Japanese
    were manufacturing right now, with textiles,
    of course, cotton.
    And I was in charge of that office.
    And then my boss, Mr. Picker, Max Picker,
    was originally from Romania.
    He went to Panama when he was 18 years old.
    And eventually, they established a very interesting office.
    And he was leaving-- left me in charge of the office.
    And at that time the refugees started to come in, in 1940--
    in 1940 it was.
    I said to him, Max, where are your parents?
    He says my parents are in Bessarabia, in Romania.
    I said, what?
    Look, this is burning under their feet.
    Look what's going on.
    People are running away.
    Jews are being arrested and et cetera.
    And Romania is an ally of Germany.
    I said get them out of there-- his mother, his father,
    and two sisters, young girls.
    He says, look, I'm well-to-do.
    I am able to do it.
    I'm writing my letters to my father
    asking him to leave and to come to Japan.
    I said, just bring him to Japan like all the others,
    via Moscow, via--
    I'll take care of them and then we'll see what happens.
    He says to me--
    he shows me a letter.
    He says, I'm writing to my father and this is his reply.
    He stayed with me about three months so there
    was time to correspond.
    His father writes to him, where will I go?
    I'm an orthodox man with my wife, my children.
    I have my business.
    What kind of business, I don't know.
    I'm not going to leave my little place and go to Japan.
    What is Japan to me?
    What is-- I don't know.
    I'm staying here.
    I said, Max, write to him.
    The Earth is burning under their feet.
    They must leave.
    Tell him to come here, then we'll worry about it.
    He says, look, I'm going to write him a letter.
    He showed me a letter.
    The correspondence was all in Yiddish.
    He writes to them and says, look,
    I understand you don't want to go, and this and that,
    but if you ever decide to leave your place where you live
    and to come to Japan and then we'll worry about what to do
    next, send a telegram or a letter to this man--
    he gave my name and address--
    and then we'll see what happens.
    I said, Max, do you have on you any photographs of your parents
    and your sister?
    He says, yes.
    He says-- I have it-- documentation, et cetera.
    And he left with me his photographs.
    And he left.
    He went back to Panama.
    And when Russia, the Soviet army occupied Bessarabia,
    part of Romania, that was one of the cities
    they occupied, where his parents lived.
    I got a telegram from him.
    I remember it so well.
    It says, the book that Max wanted to send me,
    I need it very urgently.
    I understood.
    Russians, Soviet army occupied that place.
    How am I going to get him out of there?
    So, I found out--
    some of the refugees were very--
    they knew the ways around things.
    And one of them told me that the Chilean consulate in Kobe,
    you can buy from him Chilean passports.
    And if you send those Chilean passport
    to these people with their photographs there, their names,
    they might be able to travel to Moscow, from Moscow
    to Vladivostok, and then you bring them to Japan.
    I want to see the consul.
    He was a very mean young fellow.
    I said to him, this is the situation.
    We have to help.
    We have to find a way to get the Jews from there.
    He says, you Jews, you think you can do everything for money.
    I said, I'd like to buy some passports.
    I know you're doing it.
    He says, it will cost you $5,000.
    I said, that's a lot of money, $5,000.
    He said, see you, Jews, you say money is not important
    and when it comes to the lives of people,
    you bargain with me for money.
    I said, I'm not bargaining.
    I said have a heart.
    Have a decent human heart.
    People have to get out of there.
    He said, all right, $4,000, and bring it
    to me in cash, American dollars.
    In those days, it was not allowed
    to have American dollars.
    I'll find a way.
    I left to him the names and the photographs.
    I came to him in a few days.
    He gave me three passports.
    I brought the $4,000.
    He gave me three passports, Chilean passports
    for these people.
    And he says, you must promise me only one thing.
    If you ever bring him to Japan, I want those passports back.
    I don't want them to be left with them.
    I said to myself, to hell with you.
    I said, yes, of course I'll go and do it.
    For me, it's get them out of there.
    Then I have a problem.
    I have three foreign passports, Chilean passports
    for three people, father, mother, and two girls.
    How am I going to send it to them?
    The Russians will--
    I had a good friend of mine in the police,
    a Japanese-- a Russian speaking man, Mr. [? Kundo. ?]
    He was a very fine man.
    I said to him, look, my boss was here.
    He's from Panama.
    He left me-- I couldn't say what the passports-- that's
    not done, you know.
    I said, he left me three passports
    for his family in Romania.
    How to send those passports to him--
    to them?
    They should be able to get out and come to Japan.
    He says to me, give me a couple of days,
    I'll talk to the governor of the province.
    Maybe he'll give us some advice.
    He came back in two days and he said,
    this is what the governor said.
    Send those three passports to the Japanese ambassador
    in Moscow, asking him to transmit those passports
    to these people in the occupied city.
    Or write to them they should come
    to Moscow to pick up their passports
    at the Japanese embassy.
    Maybe that will do it.
    I said, OK.
    I sent those passports.
    That was about a month before Germany attacked Russia.
    And that was the end of it.
    They died.
    They were destroyed in Hitler's camps in Romania.
    I found it out about 20 years later.
    I was on my--
    already in America.
    I was travelling.
    I found out that Max was in Caracas, Venezuela.
    That was the way he went, from Panama to Caracas.
    I went there.
    I called him up.
    And it was a very interesting reunion.
    And he said, where are you staying?
    He came to my hotel in Caracas, Venezuela.
    And with a young--
    he was not married when I knew him in Japan, but at that time
    he was already married.
    And he had three children.
    He lived in Caracas.
    He was a very well man to do.
    And he came in a car with the driver.
    And there was a boy next to him.
    And he said, my boy will be barmitzvahed
    in about six months.
    Do you know what is his name?
    I said, no.
    He says I name him after you.
    I was so touched, you know.
    I said, look, Max, your parents were destroyed.
    I know.
    I used his money to buy the passports.
    He was very, very upset.
    He was very--
    I said, did you ever tell your children what happened?
    How you tried to get them out of there,
    and you couldn't, and they were destroyed?
    He says, no, I haven't got the heart to tell them.
    I said, I want to tell them.
    He invited me for dinner to his house.
    And the beautiful woman to whom he was married,
    had two grown up daughters, 16 and 14, and a little boy of 13.
    And I came to his house.
    And in the bedroom I saw two big photographs
    of his father, his mother, and his sisters.
    I said, did you ever tell your children what happened?
    He said, no.
    I don't have the heart.
    I don't know if they'll believe me.
    I said let me tell them.
    I took the photographs to the dining room,
    put them on the table.
    I said, children-- they spoke good English.
    I said, children, do you know who these are here?
    Says, yes, it's our grandfather, grandmother, and our aunts.
    They were destroyed in Hitler's camps in the Holocaust.
    I said, let me tell you, I was a witness.
    Your father tried his best to bring them out
    of Romania through Japan.
    We don't know what would have happened, but he did try.
    But your grandfather for some reason or other
    didn't want to leave this place where they lived.
    But I want you to remember your father is not
    responsible in any way for the destruction of his parents
    and your grandparents.
    Oh, they were upset.
    They were crying and this and that.
    And that's the story, one of the stories.
    Let's change tapes.
    [INAUDIBLE] putting the tapes in.
    [LAUGHS]
    OK.
    All right.
    At the beginning of the Pacific War, when
    you had floods of refugees coming in
    and stuff, what was the mood like in Kobe?
    I mean, you already told me that people didn't really
    want to go to Shanghai, but they had no other option.
    Were people panicked or--
    I don't think there was any panic.
    We told them--
    I'm sorry, start over with "at the beginning of the Pacific
    War" or-- you need to place the time.
    I think it was in August of 1941 when the Japanese military was
    advancing in Indochina and in other places.
    The military took over the jurisdiction
    over the life in Japan.
    No more the police.
    It was the military that took over.
    And they came to us and they told us that-- the refugees.
    And all the residents that had permanent visas like ourselves
    were those that had transit visas for a few days
    only had to leave for Shanghai.
    And they gave us--
    I think it was 30 days.
    Of course, we had about 2,500, 3,000 people in those days.
    And we organized, we--
    the Joint Distribution Committee sent the money
    to buy the tickets for them to go to Shanghai.
    I spoke to some of them.
    They were very, very nervous, upset.
    They knew there were about 20,000 refugees
    already in Shanghai.
    They knew that the climate was not as good as in Japan.
    They didn't know where they will be put, how they will live,
    what's going to happen to them.
    We told them, all we can do is we send telegrams
    to the Jewish organizations in Shanghai
    to get organized to take care of you,
    just like we are trying to take over here.
    The representatives of the Joint Distribution
    and other American Jewish organizations
    were already there in Shanghai.
    They were taking care over--
    looking after the German and the Austrian Jews.
    Also, there was a very strong, financially powerful
    Sephardic organization in Shanghai, the Jews
    from Iraq, Syria, Egypt.
    And they got organized to help the people
    in any way they could.
    And there were houses of worship, and hospitals,
    and their life was very well organized.
    When did you leave Japan?
    Now, as I told you before, I was working for a Panamanian firm
    in 1941 after Pearl Harbor.
    Panama has declared war on Japan,
    as an ally of the United States.
    Being a Panamanian firm, the military came to my office
    and sealed it off, closed it.
    Enemy firm.
    Although, I was not an enemy subject, but the firm was.
    And I was left without any income, without any money.
    My wife's family was in Shanghai.
    My own parents were in Shanghai.
    And I wrote them a letter.
    They said, you better come to Shanghai,
    because in Japan, strict quotas on food
    was already instituted after December of 1941.
    Not only for us, but for everybody.
    It was hard to get food.
    We were all rationed with bread, and rice, and sugar,
    or whatever necessary.
    And in February of 1942, my wife,
    my little boy who was five then, and myself,
    we went to Shanghai.
    They allowed me to go.
    I mean, I didn't need any visas or anything.
    I had a Japanese residential permit.
    And we left.
    So during the war years, we were in Shanghai.
    And how was life for you in Shanghai?
    [INAUDIBLE]?
    How was life for you in Shanghai?
    Well, not so bad.
    I mean, you know, we were--
    I'm sorry, could you start with "life in Shanghai" or--
    You see, we were not--
    I don't know if you--
    in 1941-- no, '43, I believe, under the influence
    of the Germans, who were Allies of Japan
    after Japan has occupied Shanghai,
    that they should get rid of the refugees.
    So they came out with a proclamation
    that anybody who came to Shanghai after 1937
    has to be segregated.
    They have to leave the places where they
    were in a place called Hongkou.
    Hongkou it was called, segregated area,
    which we called it a ghetto.
    We came to Japan to live in Shanghai before 1937,
    so we were not--
    we were the Russian Jews.
    We were not subject to this proclamation.
    But all the others had to go there.
    Life was not so bad.
    We lived among the millions of Chinese.
    Business was going on.
    Food was plentiful.
    And life for the refugees was not easy, especially
    for those that were segregated in the so-called ghettos
    in the Hongkou.
    They were looked after by the Jewish organizations.
    They put them into schools, into warehousing.
    There were thousands of them.
    They had no right to leave that area
    to come to where we lived in the concessions--
    pre-French concession and English international
    settlement, because they were under
    the Japanese proclamation.
    And life was pretty tough over there.
    Schools were organized.
    As a matter of fact, my wife was teaching
    in one of those schools, teaching English
    to the kids who couldn't speak any English.
    German-speaking kids.
    Life was organized in a way--
    we had our synagogues, we had our hospitals.
    We had a pretty well organized communal life.
    What is the story behind your leaving to come to America?
    The story of my coming to America.
    When I came to Shanghai in 1932, '33, '34,
    I always was thinking, I would like
    to go on and live in America.
    This was even before I was married.
    And then I sort of--
    I went to the American embassy, I applied for a visa,
    and I thought, well, if it comes, it comes.
    If it doesn't come, it doesn't matter.
    I have a pretty good life in Shanghai.
    But then in 1948, when the Chinese Communist army was
    advancing on Shanghai, we, the Jewish community people,
    got together, and we got organized, say,
    we cannot stay under the Communist occupation.
    And I thought to myself, if I want my visa
    to go to the States to be processed upon,
    to be worked upon, I will not stay under the Communists,
    because it was during McCarthy times.
    It's not going to be easy to go to America.
    And already at that time, I had three children.
    I said, we have to give the children education,
    a life of their own to live.
    And the only way we could go, we could leave Shanghai
    was to Israel.
    The state of Israel was established in '48.
    We, Jewish community leaders, got together,
    and we sent them a cable, telling them
    that we have a few thousand people that
    want to go to Israel.
    And they sent a ship after us.
    And just before the Chinese Communists occupied Shanghai,
    about three months before that, the ship came, and we,
    about 800 of us-- that was our first group--
    went on a ship to Israel.
    But we had to travel around the Cape of Africa,
    around Cape Town, because at that time,
    Israel was at war with Egypt.
    The ship could not go via the Suez Canal.
    The ship was under a Panamanian flag.
    The captain was a Greek.
    The crew were Italians.
    There were 800 of us.
    It was a difficult time.
    We [INAUDIBLE] over 52 days.
    We went from Shanghai to Singapore, from Singapore
    to South Africa, then all the way to Italy.
    In Italy, an Israeli ship picked us up, took us to Haifa.
    I stayed there.
    I had a very difficult time in Israel--
    to settle down, to [INAUDIBLE].
    In 1951, I got a request, an invitation
    from my former friend who was the president
    of the Jewish community, Mr. [PERSONAL NAME],,
    to come to Japan if I want to.
    He had a store open in Japan.
    And since I could speak Japanese and I knew the text--
    he was in the textile business.
    That's when I came.
    And before I left for Japan, I went to the American embassy,
    and I told them, I am going to Japan,
    and I have an application for a visa for me and my family.
    Would you please transfer my papers to Tokyo?
    And they said, OK.
    Came to Tokyo, went to the American embassy.
    The file was there.
    I had to start from the beginning.
    And when I came to Japan, it's at that time
    that I met Mr. Sugihara.
    He was working in the same store.
    They called me in to the American embassy.
    And Ms. [? Bernard, ?] who was in charge of my file,
    said, you still want to go to America?
    I said, yes.
    Why?
    I said, well, I have children, I have the future for my children
    will be there.
    A free life, a free--
    it was a good life.
    I can't stay in Japan all my life.
    I have to go to America.
    So she kept on-- yeah, I was Russian-speaking,
    so the first question she asked me-- are you a communist?
    This was during the McCarthy time, remember.
    I said no.
    So she said to me, how do I know?
    How can you prove it to me?
    I said, Ms. [? Bernard, ?] let's change places.
    If you were me and applying for a visa to go to America
    and you were asked if you were a communist or not,
    what would you say?
    Would you admit, even if you were a communist?
    She says, you cannot talk to me like this.
    I said, you are asking me a stupid question.
    I'm sorry.
    But I have a lot of friends, I come from a religious family,
    and I want to go to America.
    Then one day-- she called me every month.
    The same question-- are you a communist, are you a communist?
    I said, no.
    Well, how come you speak Russian?
    I said, I was born in Russia, I could speak Russian.
    Anyhow, we'll let you know.
    And it went on.
    And I was not in a hurry to go to America at that time.
    Our oldest son was still--
    I need to get back to our story, OK?
    I understand.
    Let's see.
    Could you help for a second?
    Sure.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    When did you find out about the Holocaust?
    I found out about the Holocaust already when
    I was in America in 1956.
    So you didn't find out at all--
    Oh, no, no.
    I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
    Earlier, much earlier.
    In 1949, '48.
    Before we left for Israel, we knew already
    about what was going on.
    We didn't know the enormous situation, what happened.
    But we heard about the Holocaust.
    You want to know what happen--
    So could you start again?
    You found out about it while you were in Shanghai.
    That's right.
    OK, so start-- tell me that.
    News started to filter through after the war was over,
    what was happening.
    And the refugees at that time who
    lived in Shanghai, the Polish refugees, most of them
    have lost their family.
    So whoever they left behind, they
    started getting information that they were destroyed.
    And we got together, and we organized prayers
    in the synagogue for the memorial of those
    that were destroyed in Europe.
    At that time, the state of Israel
    was already established in '48, and we
    knew that the number of Jews who were left alive
    from the camps that were freed from the various camps
    in Europe were on their way to Israel.
    So that's where we were going to go.
    OK.
    So did you lose any close relatives, or friends,
    or anyone in the Holocaust?
    I must have lost because they were living in Russia
    and occupied by the Germans, but I never was in touch with them,
    so I don't know.
    Let's see.
    Could you tell me about the interview with the police
    where they asked the question, why
    do the Germans hate the Jews?
    In 19-- when was it?
    In 1941, I believe, we received a telephone call
    from the Japanese military in Tokyo.
    We were in Kobe.
    That the Japanese military wants to talk to our representatives
    of the Jewish community, of the Jewish refugees that
    were, at that time, in Kobe.
    So our president who talked to him,
    he told me afterwards, he said, what kind of people,
    we have 3,000 people?
    What kind of-- what-- what do they want?
    Who do they want to talk to?
    So the answer was, we want to talk to the--
    send us three people, the highest.
    What do you mean "the highest?"
    Whatever.
    He said, we have so many different kind of people--
    teachers, rabbis, Zionists, of all kinds.
    Send us the three that are the highest.
    He says, I'll send you three rabbis.
    He says, what's a rabbi?
    He said, well, they're all teachers.
    How high are they?
    He says, they're next to God.
    That was exactly-- I was listening
    to the telephone conversation.
    And so he asked me--
    Mr. [PERSONAL NAME] asked me to ask three rabbis to accompany
    me to go to Tokyo, and there will be an interview--
    you may call it interrogation, in some way,
    of the Japanese military want to talk to you.
    I was very nervous about it, but I went there,
    because I could only trans-- the only one I
    could translate from the-- the rabbi spoke in Yiddish.
    And somebody had to translate into English or Japanese.
    Some of our Japanese friends, two of them,
    met us at the station in Tokyo.
    It was a nine-hour trip by train.
    And they took us to a Japanese officers' club, naval club
    in Tokyo.
    And we went there.
    They asked me-- they met us.
    They said, who are you?
    I said, I'm a Jewish [? medic. ?]
    I came over to interpret.
    So this man said, we don't need any interpreters.
    I said, but how will you understand
    what they are talking-- they are talking in Yiddish.
    They said, our interpreters know very well German,
    and they will translate, so we don't need you.
    I quietly told the rabbi--
    I said to one of them, Rabbi [? Kalish ?],,
    I said in Yiddish, I said, you don't know any German,
    you know only Yiddish, because I want to be there.
    I didn't know what they were going to do.
    They put me in a separate room, and I came back
    10 minutes later.
    They said, we need you, we cannot understand.
    So I went in there, and it was a pretty scary situation.
    There were four Japanese admirals
    in uniform sitting there with their shaved heads
    and their swords on the table.
    And all rabbis.
    The rabbi opens the conversation,
    thanking them for allowing them to come to Japan.
    And it was a very profound, very interesting talk.
    I didn't know [INAUDIBLE].
    I translated.
    I didn't know if they understood what they were saying,
    but anyway, whatever it was-- finally, one of them
    said, why is it that our Allies, the German people,
    hate you Jews so much?
    So the rabbi said, well, they don't only hate me.
    You're next on the list.
    He says, what do you mean?
    He said, because we are also Asiatic people like you are.
    He said, what are you talking about?
    He says, you see, the Germans don't
    like anybody who is not like them,
    who is not blond, blue-eyed, and pure of blood.
    So the general asked him, what are you talking about?
    He says, I read in the newspaper that in Berlin
    a Japanese employee of the Japanese embassy
    wanted to marry a German girl, and he was not
    permitted to do so, because he was not blond and blue-eyed.
    And you're next on the list.
    So I don't think they liked the answer.
    But then anyway, it went on for a little bit more.
    And then they said, we'll let you know.
    And it took about two hours.
    They left.
    Then they came back, and they brought some food
    that they knew that the rabbis could
    eat-- some fruits, some bananas, and some tea.
    And they apologized for having kept them for so long
    and travelled for a long time.
    They were not young people, these rabbis.
    And they also had two Shinto priests, Japanese priests.
    And from then on, the conversation,
    for about three or four hours, went
    on a Talmudic/Japanese Shintoism conversation, the differences
    between religion.
    It was very interesting.
    After it was over, then one of the generals
    said, go back to your home, you have nothing to worry about.
    We will not do to you what the Germans
    have done to your people.
    Go home and don't worry.
    That was it.
    Great.
    Why did they do it?
    I don't know.
    I cannot answer.
    After all, they were Allies with the Germans.
    Sorry?
    If he would take a sip of water, please?
    Could you take a drink of water?
    Yeah.
    Thank you.
    What role do you think luck played in the refugees--
    Who?
    Luck.
    Luck?
    Yes.
    In saving all these people?
    I don't know if it was luck.
    Their coming to Japan--
    this is the part I am concerned with--
    was due to the fact that they received the Japanese transit
    visas from the Japanese consul in Lithuania.
    Why he gave those visas even after we found out,
    I read about it, that he was told not to do it,
    but he continued doing it.
    Mr. Sugihara did.
    Why he did it, I will never know the answer.
    Political?
    Humane?
    I don't know.
    I cannot answer you this.
    I can only answer what--
    I was once asked the same question
    by the Japanese interview on television.
    They came to see me here about six years ago.
    They asked me the same question.
    Why do you think it was done?
    I said, I want to talk to you off camera.
    I said, I'm a Jew.
    I'm not a very orthodox, religious person,
    but sometimes I think this was the hand of God.
    What do you mean?
    I said, by doing that, giving visas,
    over 1,500 rabbis and rabbinical students were saved from death,
    so they could spread all over the world
    after the war was over and teach our people the words
    of our Torah, of our education.
    What's a Torah?
    They didn't know what it was.
    In my room, I have five Books of Moses in English.
    I brought it to them and I showed it to them.
    I said, this is it.
    This is the basic of our cultural education.
    And if it wasn't for these people,
    it wouldn't have been taught to our people all over the world.
    But it has been.
    That is the reason, in my opinion.
    Sometimes I think that's the reason.
    OK, could you tell me that one more time without referring
    to the Japanese crew or the--
    just answer the question--
    try it one more time without telling me
    the story about the Japanese TV crew, OK?
    I'm sorry.
    Answer, why did Sugihara give out visas?
    Oh.
    I don't know the answer.
    I was asked--
    Start with "I don't know why Sugihara gave them--"
    I don't know Sugihara gave those visas.
    I read the books about it.
    There's a new book--
    I don't know if you read it.
    It's called In Search of Sugihara.
    The man who wrote this book, Rabbi Levine from Massachusetts
    somewhere, he's asking the same question.
    Why did he do it?
    I think that Mr. Sugihara wasn't able to answer
    this question if he were alive.
    But he's not alive anymore.
    And I'll tell you honestly, not having known this man
    and read about him, I don't think--
    whatever he would have answered would
    have been the correct answer.
    I just don't know.
    It's a puzzle.
    I don't know why he did it.
    Political?
    He was a spy to begin with.
    He had his problems, he had his things to do,
    and maybe that's one of the things he had to do.
    I don't know.
    When you worked with him in Japan, did you ever ask him?
    I asked him a few times.
    He wouldn't want to talk to me about it.
    He just refused to talk to me about it.
    He was a very, how shall I say, bitter man.
    He was very self-enclosed.
    He didn't want to speak to anybody.
    I think he felt himself, what they say in Japan, he lost
    face, having been working for the Japanese government,
    a consul, and all of a sudden, he's
    downgraded to be an employee of an American person
    and in charge of the Japanese employees.
    And he kept them all at--
    he wouldn't even associate with them.
    Not that I knew of.
    A few times I asked him, let's go and have dinner,
    we'll talk about--
    he refused.
    Are there any stories that I have not asked you
    about that you feel are important about what
    it was like to have been a refugee or your interactions
    with the refugees?
    Let's see.
    I told you about the one--
    it was in August or so of 1941 when the orders
    came that they have to leave--
    the refugees had to leave Japan for Shanghai.
    The orders came from the military
    that the ships that would take them-- every 10 days, there
    was a ship and about 500, 600 people
    were arranged to buy them tickets to go to Shanghai.
    The ships would not come to the dock.
    The ship would drop anchor far away,
    and small boats would be sailing towards the docks
    where they were supposed to gather
    to go on those small docks afterwards to be transferred
    to the big ships.
    And the orders were--
    they had baggage with them, little suitcases,
    whatever they had, that they had to put on the floor.
    And the Japanese customs police or whoever it-- military
    would look at their things that they were taking with them.
    You know, just a procedure.
    And on the floor.
    I went there a couple times to see them often,
    especially this old man, this old rabbi.
    And I went with him to help him.
    Of course, he didn't speak any-- the language.
    And he's holding in his hand a small packet.
    I said to him, Rabbi, the orders are
    you have to put it on the floor.
    He says, I'm not putting it on the floor.
    It is a Torah which I smuggled from Poland to Lithuania,
    from Lithuania to Japan, and now.
    It's a Torah.
    I'm not going to put it on the floor.
    I said, Rabbi, you are dealing with Japanese military.
    They don't understand those things.
    Put it on the floor.
    He says, no.
    Let him kill me, but I'm not putting it on the floor.
    Go and talk to him.
    I went to the officer in charge, and I explained to him,
    and he says, tell him to put it on the floor.
    I said he wouldn't do it.
    He says, what is it?
    I said, look, this is what you call a sacred thing.
    It's a Torah.
    What's a Torah?
    I came to the rabbi, I said, can you open it and show it to him?
    It was wrapped in some towels and blanket, whatever.
    A small thing like that.
    He says, yes.
    He opened it up, and he opened the Torah,
    and the man looked at it.
    He says, what is it?
    And I said, this is written in Hebrew,
    and it is Jewish culture, Jewish education.
    He says it is holy.
    He wouldn't put it on the floor.
    Shoot him, he's not going to put it on the floor.
    He says, OK.
    And one little thing, you know?
    And don't put it on the floor.
    Then one day also, a few times I was asked by the police
    to come.
    They couldn't understand the language.
    They arrested some people for little things.
    And to translate.
    One day they called me.
    I went there, and there are two young students shivering.
    I say, what happened?
    I said, can I talk to them?
    Policeman said, yes, we arrested them.
    I said, why?
    They were on the top of the building
    of the [? Daimaru ?] department store, which
    had a little zoo over there for children.
    And one of them had a camera, and they were
    taking pictures of each other.
    And the department store is facing the ocean.
    And the ocean over there, not far,
    was sailing a Japanese military ship.
    I said, well, they don't understand all this thing.
    I said, it was a misunderstanding.
    Open the camera.
    I said, take the film that's there,
    throw it away, and let them go.
    The fellas never been-- they're from a small city in Poland.
    They've never been in an eight-story, beautiful building
    like this department store.
    They said, OK, but there's another problem.
    I said, what's the problem?
    He said, we searched them, and on one of them pockets,
    we found an envelope which contained $10.
    Dollars are not allowed in those days to be circulated in Japan.
    It was like a black market.
    You have to change them into Japanese money.
    And these $10 were in an envelope.
    And on the envelope was a name of a person and an address
    in English of someone who lived in Japan, one of our residents.
    So I said, what is this?
    They said, look.
    I said, this could be serious because dollars are not
    allowed.
    You are breaking the law.
    I said, the important thing is they're
    going to bring that man whose name is on the envelope,
    for sure.
    They're going to ask him questions and you.
    And if you tell the same story of how you got the $10
    and how his name appeared on the envelope, then
    it will be all right.
    But otherwise, if you tell different stories,
    because he will be questioned separately,
    there might be a little problem.
    Oh, they started to cry and yell.
    If we did, we broke the law, they might send us away
    from our school.
    I said, well, let's see what happens.
    So just at that time, the man was brought in,
    the local resident.
    He saw them.
    He looked at them, and then they said, look,
    we are religious people.
    We have to pray, it's 5 o'clock in the afternoon.
    And I said to the police, is it allowed that they pray?
    They said, yeah, let them pray.
    They came to the window, and they started to [INAUDIBLE],,
    you know.
    And they started to yell.
    And one of the prayers in Yiddish,
    they started to say to this man, you
    tell him like this, because we told him like that.
    It should be the same.
    And he understood right away.
    He said, I also want to pray.
    They gave him the permission, and he told them what he said.
    They took them both to separate rooms for interrogation.
    And in 10, 15 minutes, they said, they told the same story!
    Because they rehearsed it, you see.
    And they let them go, and they said, that's all right,
    don't worry about it.
    Only thing is sign the paper that you
    will change the dollars tomorrow in the Japanese bank
    into Japanese money.
    And that was the end of it.
    It was not a serious situation.
    Great.
    Let's change tapes.
    That's it?
    We have to end.
    We're at 36, yeah.
    How much time?
    Uh-- that-- I mean, with 30 minutes, 36 seconds,
    I would-- yeah, OK.
    Could you tell us how old you were
    during this period of time?
    And does it seem like an entirely different lifetime?
    I mean can you get philosophical about it?
    I was 27 years old, and I was in Kobe
    during that period of time.
    Philosophical about it-- now, as years went by, and I'm getting
    to be an ancient old man, having read about it--
    and having read a lot about the Holocaust,
    I feel good about the fact that I was in some way
    responsible, not responsible, but involved in helping people
    to save their lives.
    And that makes me feel good.
    I tell this to my children and grandchildren.
    And that's it.
    That's all I can say.
    I'm glad I'm in America.
    I'm glad that my family is here.
    My children were able to go to good schools, universities.
    My grandchildren, great grandchildren are here.
    The only anything I have a great regret and sorrow
    that my wife left me, 10 years ago.
    She died of cancer.
    I'm grateful.
    Did you-- in your early 20s, mid 20s,
    when you were like meeting with the rabbis and stuff--
    Yes, from 20-- I was 25 to 27, that's the period of time.
    Did you feel you had good judgment
    or did you feel honored?
    I mean, did you feel like you were very young?
    I felt that I was very young, but I must tell you
    that the president of our community and other associates
    that I worked with, especially the president,
    was a very great, fine leader, dedicated man,
    and I was his secretary.
    And I was very glad that I was able to learn a lot of things
    from him, and help him in this great work that he did.
    I give all the credit to him and to my other friends.
    Unfortunately, they're not there anymore.
    Were the refugees that you helped grateful?
    Have you heard from them?
    Yes, I've heard from them.
    They would come and talk to me.
    Answer in a complete sentence.
    Even lately, when I meet some of them, ah, Mr. Hannon,
    you are the one that was in Kobe, Japan.
    I got letters from Australia and from America, and some of them
    I met in Israel.
    They were grateful.
    And they said, you helped us a lot, and we are very grateful.
    That's all.
    Nobody ever-- as a matter of fact, there was a time in 1950
    or so, I had a very difficult time in Israel.
    I lost my job and it was difficult.
    And I don't know how those refugees that
    were spread all over the world, America, Canada, Australia,
    they found out that I had a difficult time.
    I had a family of three children.
    I started getting care packages, 10, 15, 20
    came from all over from these people.
    And I was very, very grateful to them.
    I didn't know who they were.
    There were no names from--
    on the labels, but that's the way they paid me back.
    Amazing.
    It was good.
    It was good.
    I'm grateful.
    What happened to the rest of your family in Russia?
    I don't know.
    You don't know.
    I left when I was three years old.
    My parents took me out.
    They didn't correspond.
    They didn't contact each other.
    So I never knew where they were.
    My father never corresponded with them.
    I know that time took its own.
    That's all.
    Do you have any final statements or feelings
    about why you were involved, or was it
    fate, was it the hand of God?
    I always feel that, and I say to my friends
    and whoever asks me this question, that I'm glad
    I was in the right place at the right time
    to be able to take part in that work.
    I'm grateful for my associates in the JEWCOM,
    especially the president, Mr. Ponve, the ladies,
    the wives who were helping.
    Everybody works, works really hard to help these people who
    were really strangers.
    They were different people from ours.
    We were Russians.
    They were Polish, Jews, Orthodox, and so forth.
    And I'm grateful that I was able to do it.
    OK.
    And anything that I didn't ask about
    that you feel we should know?
    I just want to underline once again
    that there's one person that was very, very responsible,
    and to whom I owe this luck of being his secretary, Mr.
    Ponve, who passed away in 1969 in Los Angeles.
    He was the one who requested me to help him in his work.
    And he was the one--
    he was, at that time already, not a very strong man.
    He was a sick man.
    But his work, his energy--
    there was a lot of things that probably were not even told
    to us by the Japanese.
    He was very well-respected.
    And I want his name to be forever known,
    if it's possible.
    OK.
    And one last technical question again.
    Where did the name JEWCOM come from?
    Jewish Community of Kobe, Ashkenazi, in brackets.
    In the telegram office, for the purpose of sending telegrams,
    it was shortened, instead of Jewish Community,
    got a long, long, long description,
    JEWCOM, that's how its done.
    The Polish Jews couldn't pronounce JEWCOM.
    They called it YEFCOM, because for them, J was not a--
    they didn't use the letter J in their language,
    in Yiddish or in Polish.
    So it was easier for them to talk to each other, JEWCOM,
    JEWCOM, YEFCOM, YEFCOM.
    It's a Jewish Community of Japan.
    It was too long.
    And that's how it started.
    And how it went on.
    Great.
    Thank you.
    Now quiet for 30 seconds for the editor.
    This is 30 seconds room tone, 30 seconds room tone.
    Can I drink?
    [SILENCE]
    OK.
    End room tone.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Leo Hanin
    Date
    interview:  1999 July 07

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    4 videocassettes (Betacam SP) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Hanin, Leo, 1913-

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Firstlight Pictures, a film production company contractor for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, conducted the interview with Leo Hanin on July 7, 1999, in preparation for the exhibition, "Flight & Rescue." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the tapes of the interview from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Exhibitions Division in July 1999
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:57:01
    This page:
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    Oral history interview with Yukiko Sugihara

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Motl Goldberg

    Oral history interview with Motl Goldberg

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Jechil Dobekirer

    Oral history interview with Jechil Dobekirer

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Zorach Warhaftig

    Oral history interview with Zorach Warhaftig

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Jan Zwartendyk

    Oral history interview with Jan Zwartendyk

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Susan Bluman

    Oral history interview with Susan Bluman

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Ruth Segal

    Oral history interview with Ruth Segal

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Norbert Swislocki

    Oral history interview with Norbert Swislocki

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Hanni Vogelweid

    Oral history interview with Hanni Vogelweid

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Benjamin Gelbfish

    Oral history interview with Benjamin Gelbfish

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Alexander Schenker

    Oral history interview with Alexander Schenker

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Victor Erlich

    Oral history interview with Victor Erlich

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Ernest Heppner

    Oral history interview with Ernest Heppner

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Leo Melamed

    Oral history interview with Leo Melamed

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Moshe Zupnik

    Oral history interview with Moshe Zupnik

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Marko Nowogrodzki

    Oral history interview with Marko Nowogrodzki

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Lucille Camhi

    Oral history interview with Lucille Camhi

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Yonia Fain

    Oral history interview with Yonia Fain

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Meri Nowogrodzki

    Oral history interview with Meri Nowogrodzki

    Oral History

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