- [TEST TONE]
- Excuse me.
- If I move my position, would that interfere?
- No, you're fine.
- Just be comfortable.
- OK.
- Be comfortable.
- That's the most important thing.
- All right.
- We're having a conversation.
- You know, we're in a cafe.
- All right.
- And I've just met you.
- And you're telling me--
- I want cappuccino.
- --your life story.
- I'd like a cappuccino.
- OK.
- OK.
- If you could give us your name.
- My name is Susan Bluman.
- And where are we?
- We are in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
- OK.
- Can you tell me, at the start of the war, where you were,
- what you were doing?
- Well, the war started on September 1st, 1939.
- That's was my birthday.
- And actually, I was in bed.
- Because the war broke out about 4:00 in the morning and we
- were all awakened by the massive plane attack on our city.
- And actually, we were not so prepared for it.
- Mind you, there were some sirens.
- And the Polish government tried to prepare the people
- about upcoming war.
- But never took it seriously.
- So we had at home some black tar paper
- in case of an attack because that's
- what they told us so that we could cover our windows.
- And at the time, just like we are now afraid of nuclear war,
- people were afraid of gas war.
- And because there were not enough
- masks to go around for everybody to buy it,
- they were quite expensive.
- And I say, nobody really took it so seriously.
- So we used to use cheesecloth before the war.
- And we prepared a few layers of cheesecloth
- with a tape on each side.
- And we just put it-- in case of something,
- put it around our nose and mouth in case of the gas war.
- So when the first siren at 4 o'clock in the morning
- woke us up, we did not have proper shelters.
- The shelter-- we were living in an apartment block.
- We were living on third floor.
- So the shelter was really a cellar in this apartment block.
- So we all rushed down to the cellar,
- which was wet, and dark, and it wasn't just a regular shelter.
- Everybody was crowded into it.
- And while we were there, the bombing started.
- And while the bombing started, some
- of the mortar of the apartment block was falling off.
- So when we came out of the shelter,
- we saw thought that was the gas.
- Because people were so scared after they already signed off
- that that's it, you are free.
- You can get out.
- And we thought that that's the gas.
- And it was a terrific panic, and everybody
- was pushing everybody else, you know,
- because people just behave like animals when there's a danger.
- Like you will say fire in a cinema or something.
- So this is my recollection of the first day of the war.
- Could you do it one more time and tell me
- that you were in Warsaw?
- Can I just cough?
- Yes.
- What do you want me to say?
- Just where you were.
- You were in Warsaw, Poland.
- Yes.
- You didn't tell me that.
- Oh, OK.
- So I don't know--
- when the war started, you were in Warsaw.
- Oh, OK.
- And you were with your family?
- Yes.
- Well, when I-- when the war--
- should I start now?
- OK.
- When the war started, I was living in Warsaw, Poland.
- So of course, that's where I was when the war started.
- And I was with my family.
- I was the youngest in my family.
- I had two older sisters and a brother,
- which were all married by that time.
- Because my older sister was about 14 years older than me.
- And my next one was about 12.
- And a brother who was nine years older.
- And I was the little one at home,
- I was the baby at home, what they used to call.
- And before the war started, there were already
- rumors of a possible war in Warsaw, I mean in Poland.
- And the Polish authorities tried to prepare the population
- of the upcoming war.
- And they suggested that you buy black tar
- paper, that you had those gas, which were really
- a few layers of cheesecloth put together with a tape
- so that you could put it over your face in case of, I guess.
- But that's all the preparations we had.
- You know, we were not aware of it that the war is when it was.
- And being young-- so when the first sirens sounded,
- that the German planes are approaching Warsaw,
- I didn't take it seriously.
- I remember myself.
- I didn't take it seriously because we already had
- something like sirens before.
- And there were only preparatory sirens.
- I really didn't take it seriously
- that that's the real thing.
- Wow.
- And when did you decide to leave Warsaw?
- And who did you leave behind?
- And why did you decide to leave Warsaw?
- Well, the war in Warsaw lasted 28 days.
- Actually, Warsaw held up longer than most
- of the countries in Europe.
- And Warsaw was surrounded by the German artillery
- on top of the planes who were flying overhead and throwing
- bombs.
- And finally, I mean, it was hunger already.
- There was no water, there was no communication.
- And as a child--
- I wasn't a young woman then--
- I was wishing that the war is over.
- I couldn't care less if the Germans come in or not.
- Because we were living in constant danger
- and constant fright.
- And as I said, your food supplies
- were already exhausted.
- For 20, we couldn't get out and do anything.
- So when, after 28 days, the German armies finally marched
- into Warsaw, we didn't realize how our life
- is going to change completely.
- Because as the war broke out, I would
- say that my life changed 180 degrees.
- It was just completely-- whatever it was was no more.
- How did you decide to leave?
- And why did you leave?
- And who did you leave behind?
- Well, I was in with the Germans for about three months.
- And of course, the Germans, right away,
- they had all different--
- how do you say it?
- The different orders.
- They were issuing different orders.
- So could you start over again?
- Yes.
- Because-- OK.
- Well, I was with the Germans for about three months,
- over three months.
- And then the Germans, the minute they walked in,
- a few days after they walked into Warsaw, as I say,
- my life changed about 180 degrees.
- And the Germans right away issued
- orders which were mostly directed
- against the Jewish population.
- We couldn't walk, we couldn't talk.
- We were even afraid in our own homes.
- And progressively, the situation became worse.
- Because they picked up my father one time,
- they shaved off his beard, they made him work hard.
- We were really afraid for our father to go out.
- One time, some of the Germans got into our house
- where my mother was by herself and beat her up.
- And I had a boyfriend from before the war.
- His name was Nathan, who was my future husband.
- And he escaped when the war broke out.
- On September 6th and 7th, most of the young Jewish people
- were leaving Warsaw, escaping from the Germans.
- And actually, even the Polish government
- was encouraging any young men to leave Warsaw
- because they were hoping to establish a second front
- in the eastern part of Poland.
- And among them, my husband.
- And he left with his family, with his father
- and his brothers.
- They had a car and they went by car
- towards the eastern part of Poland.
- And of course, they had to leave the car on the way because
- of shortage of gasoline.
- And they just had to--
- I don't know how they got there, but they had
- to walk there, to the front.
- And they got to a place, a small place
- in the eastern part of Poland.
- And I-- of course, there was no communication.
- And I didn't know what's happening to him
- and what was going on.
- But after three months, when I was under the Germans
- in Warsaw, I got--
- my future husband, who was already there in Lwow
- sent someone with a letter to my family and to me.
- And he suggested that I go with this particular person, who
- is going to take me across the border to the Russian side.
- I just want to mention that when the war broke out after--
- we didn't know about it.
- But at the time, Germany and Russia,
- they signed an agreement according to which,
- the western part of Poland was going
- to be occupied by the Germans and the eastern part of Poland
- by the Russian.
- And I think the dividing line was the River Bug.
- That was the name of the river.
- So consequently, as I said, Nathan found himself
- on the Russian part of Poland and I was still
- in the German part of Poland.
- And he wanted me to join him in Lwow.
- That's where he finally came to.
- And being the youngest, well, my father
- didn't want to let me go.
- He said no, you are too young, you can not go.
- And besides, the morality was different than it is now.
- A young woman got to a boy, it just didn't work that way.
- But anyhow, I tried to convince my father.
- And finally, my sister-in-law-- because my brother
- also escaped at the time, on September 7th.
- And my sister-in-law was going to go
- with me also with this guide.
- So my father said, OK, but remember that you
- have to come back in two weeks.
- And of course, I was in love with my husband,
- and I wanted to be with him, and I said, of course,
- I will be back.
- But not realizing that.
- Actually, I said that I will be back.
- Maybe not in two weeks, I'll be back in a month or two months,
- you know.
- And I said, of course, I will do that.
- And I just took a knapsack and a few things in it.
- No photographs of my family, nothing.
- And all I had was my father gave me
- his belt, which was kind of a folding belt. And in this belt,
- he inserted for me two two American dollar bills.
- Those were like $4 American.
- And a few Polish money, which after I
- got to the Russian side, was not worth very much.
- And that's how I escaped from Warsaw.
- And you never went back?
- And I never went back.
- I never went back to Warsaw.
- It was impossible.
- Now, for instance--
- Could you tell me--
- could you try and convince that story
- and tell me that story in 30 seconds?
- Wow.
- I shall try.
- And really let it--
- Start from which point?
- The story is I left Warsaw.
- I left Warsaw.
- Or I decided to leave Warsaw, I asked my father,
- I got a letter from him.
- I don't tell about this person who came
- and brother, everything.
- No, you don't need to tell.
- And you just left, and you never went back.
- OK.
- So after being for about three months with the Germans,
- I had a chance to escape from Warsaw, which I did.
- And I went to the Russian side of Poland, to the city of Lwow,
- where my boyfriend Nathan was there already.
- And I took with me only very few things.
- The only thing which I really had from my family
- was a belt which my father gave me.
- And he said that two two American dollar bills.
- Could you try one more time?
- But and so then you went and you never came back.
- Tell me about your father wanting you to come back.
- Oh, shall I tell you that?
- You gave me about 15 seconds.
- So you had--
- Oh, I had 15, well, gee I didn't realize that was much.
- I was trying to make it shorter.
- So start again with why you decided to leave Warsaw and--
- After being three.
- I'll rather wait.
- Well, after being in Warsaw for about three days
- under the German occupation, I had a chance
- to escape and to join my boyfriend, Nathan,
- who was already in the city of Lwow, which
- was on the Russian side, Russian-occupied Poland.
- I didn't expect not to come back.
- So consequently, I didn't take anything of value
- from my family.
- No photographs.
- The only thing which I had with me
- was the belt, which my father gave me
- in order to cross the border.
- And in this belt, he inserted two two American dollar bills.
- And I finally got to Lwow.
- And I was with Nathan.
- And after a few weeks, we got married there.
- Still not good?
- Well, I just wanted you to say--
- and your father wanted you to come back--
- To come, I didn't say it.
- --and you never came back.
- That's all right.
- We can move on.
- I can say it.
- You want me to say it again?
- OK, well, tell me.
- Was the border crossing tough?
- Very tough.
- Was it dangerous?
- OK, so include that in it.
- So maybe a minute story.
- All right.
- Well, after being for three months with the Germans
- in Warsaw, I had an opportunity to escape.
- I took this opportunity.
- But my father was not very happy about it
- since being the youngest at home,
- he was very worried about me.
- So I promised him that I would come back in about two weeks.
- And under those conditions, my father let me go.
- And of course, he didn't realize, and neither did I,
- is that crossing the border wasn't just an easy thing.
- We were detained at the border.
- I was thrown into jail for about two days.
- And then finally, through some miracle, we were let go.
- And I continued my journey by foot.
- Sometimes, maybe by sleigh because it was winter time,
- to Lwow, where was my boyfriend Nathan.
- And unfortunately, I have never seen my family again.
- OK.
- When you've got to Lwow, you got married?
- Can you tell me about that?
- Yeah.
- When I got to Lwow, about two weeks later, we got married.
- And so we stayed for another week or two weeks.
- And my husband thought that it would be a good idea if we just
- leave the Russian side and go to Lithuania, which at that time
- was a free country, one of the very few countries not occupied
- by the Germans.
- And on the contrary, Lithuania was
- larger than it was before the war started.
- Because the Russian gave part of Poland to Lithuania,
- like the city of Vilna, which before the war,
- belonged to Poland.
- But during that time, belonged already to Lithuania
- because the Russians gave them, made Lithuania larger
- so that they could occupy it later, the whole thing.
- But anyhow, my husband--
- I have to add this, that my husband before the war,
- after he finished his university education in Warsaw,
- he went to New York.
- And he spent a year there.
- And so he had some connection in New York
- because he went to practice at a company which
- used to do business with his father's company in Warsaw.
- So he still had a passport.
- I didn't have a passport.
- And in the passport, there was an American tourist visa.
- So thinking-- and his tourist visa didn't quite expire.
- So he was thinking that maybe if we
- were to get to a country like Lithuania,
- which was still a free country, and the embassies were there--
- because there were no consulates or embassy in Lwow.
- Maybe if we go there, we'll be able to get an American visa
- or an extended American visa.
- Because this tourist visa already expired.
- And it would have much better possibilities to escape
- from this Nazi-infested Europe.
- Great.
- Can you tell me about your wedding in Lwow?
- Was it a joyous affair?
- Did you have any family?
- Did you feel sad that your family wasn't there?
- Well, it was a very sad affair.
- Start with my wedding.
- OK.
- Well, my wedding in Lwow was really nothing
- to remember it by.
- It was done by a rabbi, by a very well-known rabbi
- in the city of Lwow.
- And of course, when I was crossing the border,
- I had only one dress with me.
- So I had this dress which was dark blue or something.
- And my husband's father was at the wedding
- because when my husband escaped, his father escaped also
- with his sons, the three of them.
- So he found himself in Lwow.
- And also my brother, who also escaped on September the 7th,
- and his wife, who also crossed the border to Lwow,
- she was also with him.
- So those were the people who were at the wedding.
- So I had my brother, and my sister-in-law,
- and my husband's father.
- But it was a very sad affair.
- You know, it's really much more to it.
- Because a girlfriend of mine, she also escaped.
- And she much later to Lwow than I did.
- About two weeks after I got to Lwow,
- she got there to join her boyfriend.
- And before she left, she went to see my family in Warsaw.
- And my father said to her, remember tell Susan--
- at that time she called me Zosia,
- because I changed my name.
- Not to get married.
- She has to come back home.
- But of course, it was impossible.
- So we had a double wedding ceremony
- because she got married to her boyfriend
- and I got married to Nathan at the same time
- by the same rabbi.
- Wow.
- So can you tell me--
- once you were in Vilna, what did you do?
- And how did you live?
- And why did you get married again?
- Well, we finally went, and we finally got to Vilna,
- because it was not very easy because we
- had to steal across the border.
- And the snow was up to your waistline.
- It was very hard crossing.
- But we were very fortunate.
- Somehow, we made it across.
- But some people who were with us,
- they were caught by the border police,
- by the Lithuanian border police.
- So we had to hide.
- We hid behind a small building, just
- like a small little village.
- It was a very small village, called Ejszyszki.
- Because we had a guy who lived in Ejszyszki, and he
- took us to this little village.
- But we were caught-- the other people were caught.
- We were younger and we were kind of ahead of them.
- And we hid behind a small little hut.
- It was like 2 o'clock in the morning.
- And a dog started to bark.
- And we were just petrified that the dogs
- are going to give us away.
- But somehow, they didn't.
- And we notice a light in one of the houses.
- So we knocked on the door, and the lady let us in.
- And she gave us some straw to sleep on.
- And we were just extremely tired after this on foot going
- through this deep, deep snow.
- So we slept there.
- But in the morning when we woke up, she was no longer there.
- And the guide knocks on the door.
- And here, a small village, they knew exactly what's happening.
- And he said, you have to run away right away from here
- because this woman was an informer.
- And her house was right on the border.
- So anyhow, so then we got to this guide's house.
- And the guide took us by sleigh to Vilna.
- Amazing.
- You're lucky, huh?
- OK so then tell me what life was like in Vilna.
- Well, in Vilna, here it was a bunch of refugees.
- Because there were quite a few, we were not the only one.
- Were there many other refugees from all parts
- of Poland with the same ideas as we
- had, that there would be much easier to get a visa
- to get somewhere because it was a free country.
- And there was just nothing to do because you could not--
- you didn't work.
- You had hardly any money.
- We were lucky we just had a few dollars because my husband was
- in New York.
- So he was saving a few dollars while he was there.
- So they sent us some money from his account.
- But still, we didn't have enough.
- And there was a Jewish community there.
- Not community, but Jewish maybe welfare from New York.
- I don't even remember too well this.
- And they were helping us along.
- But still, we didn't do anything.
- We were playing bridge or playing some other cards
- with the refugees.
- And we're going constantly to Kovno.
- Constantly to Kaunas because all the embassies and consulates
- were located there.
- And we made the rounds of all the consulates and all
- the embassies.
- And nobody wanted us.
- Nobody wanted us.
- We were just damned to be the victim of Hitler.
- Because the situation-- we had this feeling.
- We knew that war between Germany and Russia
- will soon come to be.
- And besides, while we were in Lithuania,
- we got to the free Lithuania, Lithuania
- got occupied by the Russians and stopped being a free country.
- So we knew that the situation really looked very, very tacky.
- And we knew that something is going to happen.
- And at the same time, the news from home what we're getting
- were terrifying.
- So we were extremely uneasy.
- We didn't know what to do.
- And we didn't have a way to communicate with our family.
- We didn't know what was happening to them.
- Only rumors, rumors, rumors.
- And you constantly only lived on the rumors.
- And so when we were there--
- we got there about January, we were in Vilna.
- And in the spring, my husband met one of his professors
- from university.
- And he said to him, you know, I know
- about a job opening in a small little place in Lithuania
- called Kiejdany, where there is a Hakhshara, a young people
- commune, people who are training to go to Palestine.
- There was no Israel at the time.
- To go to a kibbutz.
- And they need instructor to help them,
- to teach them how to cultivate the land.
- So Nathan took this job and we moved
- to this small little village Kiejdany.
- And that was like April, I'd say.
- April, May.
- And we stayed there.
- And he worked there on this.
- And we had a small little room rented
- from a very lovely poor, poor family, which was very, very
- nice Lithuanian family.
- And we just stayed there.
- And we didn't know, of course, what
- goes on because we thought that our hopes of getting out
- were slim.
- There was just no possibility of us
- to get a visa to get somewhere.
- Because as I said, no one wanted us.
- We just exhausted all the embassies, all the consulates.
- So until we found out about consul Sugihara.
- OK.
- Could you tell me?
- Could you start with how everyone rejected you?
- [TEST TONE]
- OK, turning over.
- Here we go.
- That's good.
- Did you put in a new tape there?
- Yes.
- All right.
- So tell me about the story about-- you exhausted all of--
- you wanted to get a visa.
- You kept going to [PLACE NAME],, you gave up hope.
- Then you heard about Sugihara.
- You want-- yeah, I'm not doing it.
- Can I say something?
- You want me to say all this what you just said?
- Pretty much, yes.
- I mean, take me through--
- take me through your mind.
- OK.
- I don't have to go back how I got to Vilna?
- No, no.
- No.
- All I have to tell you is that we get to Vilna
- and we wanted to go out, where we were covering all
- the consulates and embassies.
- Right.
- All right.
- So tell me about your experiences
- with all the other embassies--
- And consulates.
- --and consulates, and then tell me about the Sugihara story.
- Go ahead.
- So finally, when we finally got to Vilna,
- we're happy to get there.
- Because here, we had the opportunity
- to get to the consulates and embassies who
- were representing most of the countries in the world.
- And we were just going from one consulate to the other
- to the embassies, begging and telling them
- about our tragic situation.
- And no one would pay any attention to us.
- No one wanted us.
- We were just rejected by all the consulates,
- by all the embassies.
- We were desperate, absolutely desperate.
- We didn't see any hope, absolutely no hope.
- We just were a people with no land, nobody to turn to.
- And then we heard about Chiune Sugihara.
- By hearing about other refugees going to his consulate
- and getting a transit visa, if you had a Curacao visa,
- which is one of the small Dutch islands in the Caribbean.
- The problem was that I did not have a passport.
- So my husband had then difficulties
- putting me on his passport.
- And then by the time we had all those formalities,
- the Dutch consulate, which was an honorary consul,
- he already left the city.
- So we went to the consulate, of the Japanese consulate,
- and it was my husband who got to see Mr. Sugihara.
- And he told him about what has happened to us.
- And he already knew about from the other refugees.
- And despite that we did not have a visa
- to get somewhere-- because transit visa is
- only to get you somewhere.
- Consul Sugihara granted us this wonderful visa for life,
- the transit visa.
- Great, great.
- Can you tell me the story of why you got remarried in Lithuania?
- Well, that was before we even knew about Sugihara.
- But we were going to--
- we got remarried in Vilna.
- You could start over again with we got?
- OK.
- We got remarried in Vilna.
- Because the wedding certificate what we had,
- I don't even have it.
- Which was the wedding.
- I'll start over.
- OK?
- Do you know what that buzz is?
- I don't know.
- Is it--
- The refrigerator?
- 39.
- Standing by.
- OK.
- Here we go.
- And rolling.
- Can you tell me about your marriage, your second wedding
- in Lithuania?
- Why, and what was it like, and also,
- did you remember the date?
- We got married again in Lithuania.
- My first wedding, which took place in Lwow,
- was a religious wedding.
- And we didn't have any certificate.
- For the Russian government, you need
- to have something, a different type of certificate.
- You had to have also a civil wedding.
- So we had to go to a rabbi to get remarried.
- We took some two witnesses with us.
- And we never mentioned to the rabbi
- that we were previously married because otherwise, he would not
- have granted us this certificate.
- So we got that.
- And were very overjoyed.
- I mean, to tell you the truth, I didn't even
- remember what date it was because my only wedding
- anniversary, which we always celebrated,
- was the 26th of December.
- That's the date when we were married in the Lwow.
- But I never knew about the second one until today.
- Why did you need--
- did we get that?
- I can't remember.
- I don't know if you told us why you needed to get remarried.
- Well, my first-- our first wedding
- was strictly a religious wedding,
- which was not recognized by the Russian authorities.
- Because they didn't have much use for religion.
- So we realized that in order if you want to get somewhere
- and if you do want to get a visa, just in case,
- we should get a civil--
- have a civil wedding.
- And have a certificate to show to the Russians
- that we are married.
- So we decided to do it.
- Great.
- Can you tell me about your flight from Lithuania?
- You know, you got the Sugihara visa,
- and then how about the Soviet exit visa,
- and then did you take the Trans-Siberian Railroad?
- Well, after we got the Sugihara visa,
- we were really quite delighted to have the transit visa.
- But then we had another problem.
- We needed to get an exit visa from the Russian authorities.
- And I remember like today.
- We went to the NKVD or KGB, whatever
- they call, my husband and I, applying for an exit visa.
- And the officer says to us, exit visa, where are you going?
- So we didn't have a Curacao visa.
- We only had a transit visa.
- So we said, well, we're going through Japan,
- but eventually, we hope to get to the United States.
- And he says, how do you know you are
- going to get the United States?
- What do you mean, you're going to leave the country
- and you have no visa to go to any place?
- So we said, well, listen, my husband says,
- when we get to Moscow, there is an American embassy there.
- Because there was done in Kaunas.
- And I am sure that if I go there,
- the American ambassador will recognize my passport
- and my tourist visa.
- And I'm sure that I'm going to get an extension there.
- So the officer said to us, OK.
- Leave the passport with me and I will check on it.
- If the American embassy or consulate
- is willing to give you an American visa,
- I will give you an exit visa.
- Well, there were no more unhappy and sad people
- who left this KGB office than Nathan and I.
- Because we knew that this was impossible, absolutely
- impossible.
- And here, we didn't even have our passport
- because they took our passport.
- And we didn't expect to hear from them.
- And you know how things were being
- done in Russia at that time?
- Two weeks later, they called us in
- and they gave us our exit visa.
- Just like that.
- So then after we got our exit visa, and then
- we had to worry about transportation through Russia,
- where we didn't have enough money.
- We had very limited funds.
- And I think the Jewish Joint in the States
- had some money for the refugees to help them
- with their transportation.
- But not very much, very little.
- And all the transport that was being
- done by one firm in Russia.
- So we went to Intourist bureau.
- So we went to this Intourist bureau,
- applying to get a ticket to go across Russia
- in this Trans-Siberian train.
- And we had to stop over in Moscow.
- And the fellow said, oh, sure, you can get it.
- And he says, it will be so much and so much money.
- About $300 or more.
- And we didn't have the money.
- And say, well, how come we still have to pay all this?
- And he said, because you have to eat
- in the restaurant wagon on the train
- and the meals are very expensive.
- We said to him, listen, we don't have to eat in this wagon.
- We're going to get some sausage with us,
- and we will get some tea on the way, and water, that's
- all we need.
- We'll bring our own bread.
- No.
- You can not travel like that.
- You have to go, you have to have this.
- And you come back to me.
- And I will see if you can manage or not.
- And we came back to him, and we said again,
- the same, said, listen, we can't afford.
- It we can not do it.
- We just don't have the money to do it.
- So he said to my husband, how much money do you have?
- And he says, I have $100.
- And the fellow said to him, I tell you what, you give me $50
- and you keep for yourself $50.
- And he gave us the tickets and we went across.
- Wow.
- You were really lucky.
- OK.
- So let's see.
- Can you tell me what the trip was
- like on the Trans-Siberian Railroad?
- And try and look at me, you know.
- Now then we were already very fortunate enough
- to find ourselves on this Trans-Siberian Railroad.
- We stopped in Moscow for two days
- and then we caught this train.
- And of course, we were not in first class.
- It was like the third class.
- There were many Russian people on the way.
- The trip lasted about 10 or 12 days.
- And actually, we had no problems on it.
- Nobody bothered us.
- And we just stopped in different places
- and we maybe get some tea or chai,
- what they call in Russian.
- But we were actually very uneventful trip.
- And we just had our food what we brought with us, which we ate
- until we got to Vladivostok.
- And when we got to Vladivostok, the city was in the evening,
- and the city was all blacked out.
- And they wouldn't let us off the train
- until they provided with some buses
- to take us directly to the port of Vladivostok.
- And from there, we boarded a boat for Tsuruga, Japan.
- Was this your honeymoon?
- You know, we didn't even think of honeymoons at that time.
- So you know, it's a completely different--
- I mean, you are young, you don't take it as seriously as--
- you know, I didn't know what was happening in my family.
- And I was young, and I was in love,
- and I was with my husband, and I was quite happy
- because I wasn't by myself, you know, I was very fortunate.
- Was it a steam engine train?
- And did it take a long time?
- Where did you sleep?
- What did you eat?
- Well, the trip took from Moscow about 10 days.
- 10 or 12 days, I don't remember correctly.
- And we had the food which we took along with us, you know.
- The sausages, some bread, and we getting tea on the way,
- and things like that.
- And sometimes, we got off the station.
- But we were very afraid to get off the train.
- Because the train would just leave without--
- some people were left behind because the train didn't
- give you any notice when it is leaving.
- After all, it was kind of wartime,
- so it wasn't so regular.
- The trains in Russia were never regular.
- And as I say, and of course, we slept on hard benches,
- because we were not in a sleeping car or anything
- like that.
- But the trip itself was, I would say, very uneventful.
- Could you cut for a second?
- Could you?
- OK, rolling.
- Turning over.
- So when you got to Vladivostok, did you see the city,
- or did they take you right to the boat?
- And what were the boat conditions like?
- What was the trip across the sea to?
- And what did you expect when you got to Japan?
- I mean, you were a young girl.
- So finally, we got to Vladivostok.
- And the city was all blacked out.
- I guess it was the war precaution.
- And they never let us off the train.
- They'd let us off until the proper buses came to the train,
- took us on this bus, and the bus directly took us to the port
- to board the ship which took us to Tsuruga, a port in Japan.
- It was a freighter.
- And of course, our accommodation was the lowest class
- on this freighter.
- And at that time, the people who are on the freighter,
- they were not used to see white people
- being in the lower classes.
- Because white people were always traveling
- in luxury accommodations.
- And I remember so exactly that it was a very stormy sea.
- And I am not a very good traveler
- when it comes to all travel on a sea.
- And I got extremely seasick.
- So I would say that for two days, until we got to Tsuruga,
- I was very, very sick.
- And I really could not have cared if I live or die.
- I just didn't care about anything.
- And when we landed in Tsuruga, I was just like a zombie
- after this sickness on this boat.
- And here we are, we come to Tsuruga.
- It was a beautiful-- this I remember exactly.
- It was a beautiful day.
- It was in January.
- The cherry trees were started to bloom.
- Was sky was blue.
- And everything was so colorful in my eyes.
- And here, I see the Japanese people,
- which I have never seen before walking down
- the street in those kimonos, in those special shoes
- what they are wearing.
- I was excited.
- It was something so fantastic.
- I could never believe that here I am in Japan.
- Who could believe a girl from Warsaw all the way to Japan
- in my wildest imagination?
- So it was very exciting in this moment.
- And from Japan, they took us by a train to Kobe.
- And when we got to Kobe, we did not
- have to look for any accommodation.
- Because Joined provided houses for all those refugees
- who are coming through Russia to Japan.
- And so we were living in one house,
- and used to be called Home.
- And Jewish is Haim.
- And we used to call them Haims.
- Now, this home was probably about 28 or 30
- people were living in one house.
- And we--
- I'm sorry, we have an airplane.
- Outside going through.
- It's not such an easy job.
- No, it's not easy at all.
- My goodness, they have to repeat and repeat.
- So why don't you take me of landing in Tsuruga again.
- OK.
- I remember, when we landed in Tsuruga,
- it was a beautiful day.
- Sun was shining, the sky was blue.
- Those colorful Japanese ladies in beautiful, colorful kimonos
- walking down the street.
- Actually, like making those funny noises
- with their wooden shoes.
- It was exciting.
- And having those babies on the backs, which I never
- saw before.
- It was very, very excited.
- And we were just wondering.
- I mean, you know, it was something out of this world.
- And by train, there were some people
- from the Jewish Community Center in Kobe.
- And they took us to Kobe.
- And in Kobe, that allotted us to a house, which
- was called like a home, a Haim.
- And about 28 refugees were living in one house.
- The house had a few rooms.
- We were all sleeping on the floor.
- There were about 10 or 12 to each room.
- We were sleeping on those mats.
- But not because the Japanese people were mistreating us,
- but it was the custom of the country.
- And we didn't have, let's say, a shower or a bathtub in our--
- in the home which we lived.
- But we had like a little water, like a sink, and so on,
- and toilets.
- And then we have like hibachis, which we are cooking on.
- But next door to it was a bath house.
- About a house away, and for very few cents, like $0.10,
- which was like one American penny at the time,
- you could have your bath, and you could have your shower.
- And it was another experience.
- Because here, we saw all those Japanese people
- in those really hot tubs and everything like this.
- And it was very, very unusual.
- And being in Kobe and living in this home, here we were.
- We were a bunch of young people.
- We were all-- there was nobody over the age of 30
- in this place.
- And at first, to all of us, it was really
- something of an experience.
- So we started to go out.
- And because we were not forbidden.
- We could go anyplace we wanted to go in Kobe.
- And the Japanese people were just staring at us
- because this mass of these white people all of a sudden
- invading their city.
- And we went to different places, you know, in Kobe,
- to those red districts and here and there.
- It was quite an experience.
- We sometimes would go to a restaurant
- and have some coffee or something.
- And we were always so amazed at the way
- the Japanese women were treating the men when they came in.
- So it was really quite exciting when we were there.
- But of course, we didn't fully appreciate all this
- because we were still worrying.
- We were worrying about our families
- which were left behind.
- We were worrying about our future.
- We knew that we had only a transit
- visa, which actually let you stay
- in the country for four weeks.
- But through the graciousness of the Japanese government,
- we were allowed to stay just about six months.
- And so we were very uneasy.
- With all this, we were very, very uneasy.
- We wanted to get out.
- We knew that we can not stay there.
- And I was very fortunate that my husband, who
- is very persistent, he was traveling
- all the time to Tokyo, where all the embassies were located,
- trying to find for us a place of refuge, which was not very
- easy at that particular time.
- How did you finally get a visit to get out?
- Well, my husband was going constantly to Tokyo.
- And while he was in Tokyo, he joined--
- there was a group of engineers.
- He was an agricultural engineer.
- The professional people that there was a group of them.
- And they formed kind of an organization.
- And they had some connections with the maybe Polish embassy
- and so on.
- And my husband found out that the Polish embassy
- had 20-some visas for professional people
- to go to Canada.
- Since he was a professional people,
- so he was one of them who was provided,
- was going to be provided with a visa to Canada.
- But they had only one visa only for him, not for his wife.
- So of course, he says, well I am not
- going unless I can get a visa for my wife also.
- And at that time, he phoned me, to Kobe,
- and he said, you-- or no, he didn't actually.
- Cable.
- He cabled to Kobe, he cabled.
- Because there was no phone like it is right now.
- And we didn't have one in our home.
- And urging me to come immediately to Tokyo
- because there is a possibility that if I get there
- and we go together, maybe we will
- be able to get another visa.
- And that's what happened.
- I left immediately without taking anything
- and I joined Nathan.
- And somehow, we did get another visa for me.
- And then I had about 24 hours to return to Kobe,
- and to collect the few things what we had,
- and to board a boat for Canada.
- Because the boat was leaving the following day.
- How was your journey on the boat to Canada?
- Well, again, I was very sick.
- So start it with--
- Oh, I shouldn't say that.
- OK.
- That's all right.
- The journey to Canada was on a boat called Hiamaru.
- And this boat also was a freighter.
- We didn't have the best accommodation.
- But I'm a very poor traveler on boats.
- And I was very sick.
- And as much as we were hungry.
- And they had really some delicious food
- in the dining room.
- I just couldn't.
- I didn't want to eat anything.
- My husband was pushing me up on the deck.
- But I, again, I couldn't care less if I live or die,
- I can tell you.
- Because I was sick for 12 days until we got.
- There we got to Seattle, which I will never forget.
- Because our boat landed in Seattle.
- And to being from Warsaw and United States, that was heaven.
- This most democratic country in the world.
- And here we are in Seattle.
- It was just such an unbelievable joy and exuberance
- to see those people, the Americans, working.
- The way they were directing those boats
- with their little fingers, how to unload a boat.
- It was amazing.
- And we stayed there until they unloaded the boat
- in the States, in Seattle.
- And from there, they took us to Vancouver.
- The same board came to Vancouver.
- Great.
- Good.
- Let's see.
- What were you able to take with you on this whole journey?
- Starting when you left Warsaw.
- What did you take with you?
- When I left Warsaw--
- you see the point is like, he's typing,
- let him not type right now, I just
- want to tell you something.
- No, tell me, tell me, go ahead.
- I just want to tell you something.
- Because you see, when I left Warsaw,
- I told you my sister-in-law also left.
- I told you before, but we didn't put that in this story.
- Anyhow, she was--
- I took two dresses.
- But I had to give her one because his things were all
- stolen.
- So I was left with one of everything, whatever I had.
- Anyhow, now, I will go.
- OK, go ahead.
- OK.
- When I left Warsaw, I took a knapsack.
- And I had a pair of ski boots, and I
- had one dress, some underwear, that's about it, a comb.
- I didn't have anything else.
- I just had my father's belt around my waist.
- I didn't have any photographs.
- I even had a ring.
- I didn't take my watch along.
- I didn't take a ring along.
- I was so sure that I'm going to go back.
- I only had $4 American and I had about 100 Polish zlotys.
- That's what I had.
- Very few things.
- First of all, it would too heavy to be
- walking across and carrying a heavy knapsack, you know,
- across the border.
- So that's all I had.
- And then when we get to Lithuania,
- we had to buy a pillow.
- You know, and in the old country,
- when they had a pillow, was one big square.
- Not like two pillows what you got in this country,
- but there was one, big pillow.
- So we had to.
- We bought a pillow.
- So we had this one big pillow.
- And what I'm taking with me, this pillow never left us.
- Would you believe it?
- We took this pillow all the way to Japan.
- We landed in Vancouver with this pillow.
- And then years later, it was a down pillow, or feathers.
- We went to a place and they divided this pillow,
- and they made two pillows out of it.
- And those two pillows, we had for a long time.
- Then finally, we changed.
- And when my daughter bought a summer home,
- we gave her those two pillows.
- I think those two pillows are still in her summer home.
- OK.
- That's a great story.
- I love it.
- What role do you think luck played in your survival?
- Oh, I would say 90%.
- Can you give me a complete?
- Oh, I forgot.
- Sorry.
- I think that I was a very lucky person because many people who
- escaped by themselves, they didn't have anybody,
- they were just by themselves.
- Even though I left home and I was always very much
- doted on by my family, because I came
- from a quite well-to-do home.
- I was never by myself.
- Because the minute I left, then I joined my husband.
- And I was very fortunate because I always
- had my husband by my side.
- I mean, if we suffered, we suffer together.
- And I think that I was just about the luckiest person.
- I consider myself very lucky despite all this,
- because I always--
- we always had each other, which very few people could say that
- through the war.
- And of course, when we came to Canada, the war was still on.
- That was 1941.
- And my husband joined the Canadian Army.
- And he actually did not have to join the Canadian Army.
- Because he couldn't get a job in his profession.
- It was very hard to get a job.
- So he got a very hard job working in a factory,
- where they were carrying animals on his back,
- you know, something like beef in a packing house.
- He gets a job for a short time.
- He was working there for about 10 months or a year.
- And while he was there, he went to school.
- Since the war was on, to learn to work on a lathe.
- And he was to make tools.
- So after, he left his job and he got a job
- with Boeing, which had also a place here in Vancouver.
- And he worked there.
- So that was the essential industry.
- But that was like '43.
- And he did not have to go to the Army.
- But he said to me, I have to join the Army--
- because she could be exempt working
- in am essential industry.
- But he said, look, after the war, how would I feel?
- Here I am, a young man, and our people are suffering.
- I can not even talk about, makes me cry.
- And our people suffer so much.
- And after the war, I never contributed anything.
- I just didn't do anything.
- So he joined the army.
- And by that time, I had a little boy.
- So it was really very hard for me.
- But I never felt that it's hard for me.
- I truly never had felt that anything is hard for me.
- I really--
- [INAUDIBLE]
- OK.
- Unfortunately, I have to ask you to repeat here.
- That's fine.
- But tell me how to repeat it.
- What role did luck play in your survival?
- Do you consider yourself lucky?
- Did-- why did you survive and so many people didn't?
- When I think about my story and what happened to me,
- I think that I was extremely lucky person.
- And I have a lot to thank my husband who
- was very resourceful when it came--
- when it came to our refugee times and how to get us out.
- I don't think I could do it without him for sure.
- Why my family--
- I was the youngest one.
- And here I had a beautiful extended family, not only
- my own family, but I had many uncles, and aunts, and cousins.
- None of them survived.
- I was the only one who survived.
- My father was a very believing man.
- He was a very religious man.
- And, yet he didn't survive.
- I just could not understand that.
- And here I am, being here.
- And actually, the religious part was also,
- always, when I was a young kid a burden on my shoulders.
- Because I had to be at a certain time on Sabbath home,
- and I couldn't do certain things during the holidays
- because my father was religious.
- So, at first when I was out of the house, I felt kind of free.
- Here, I am allowed to do anything I want to.
- I didn't have any supervision of this kind.
- And yet, I survived where my father was spending time
- in the synagogue and things.
- And I never did this.
- Of course, I was too young for all this.
- I think that I was extremely lucky person.
- All through the war I was lucky.
- When live came to Canada, it was very, very hard.
- And I think my husband was taking it also much harder
- than I did.
- Maybe because he was the worrier in the family at the time.
- And I didn't-- he doing all the worrying for me.
- And mind you, I am also a worrier.
- Now that I am by myself-- my husband passed away about 12
- years ago--
- I'm doing my share.
- But I didn't-- at that time, I just didn't have to because he
- did just about all the worrying for me.
- And we brought up a beautiful family.
- We had no money we came here, nothing.
- We had 20 American dollars, that's all.
- And look at it now.
- I mean, I consider-- and we never
- took advantage of anybody.
- We just worked hard.
- We didn't have any family.
- We didn't know the language.
- We had everything really against us.
- But we had one thing which was for us.
- We were both young.
- And we are not afraid of any work.
- We were not ashamed of any work.
- And maybe that's the result.
- And I consider myself really lucky.
- I always consider myself lucky.
- I consider myself lucky as long as my family is healthy.
- That's for me the biggest luck, and as long as I'm healthy.
- But the family is--
- I'm very family minded.
- To me, the family is the most important part of my life
- and for my husband it was.
- My husband always used to say--
- my children come every Sunday to my house for dinner.
- And I always have 15 people for dinner every Sunday.
- And before my husband passed away
- we had less, because the other ones were born, a few of them
- were born after my husband passed away.
- And he always used to say, look, we
- were just two around the table and look at us now.
- And he was just so proud.
- It makes me really sad that he can see all this.
- I agree with you, family is very important.
- While you were in Japan, were you able to communicate
- with your family?
- Did you send postcards?
- Did they send postcards to you?
- What did they say?
- Why were they concerned?
- While we were in Japan.
- Sorry, I was speaking, so.
- In Japan, in Kobe, they had a Jewish Community Center.
- They called it a JewCom And Japan and Germany
- where like Axis, they were friends during this--
- they were allies during the war.
- We could send postcards to our family in Warsaw,
- even though they were in the ghetto already.
- And, of course, we used to send postcards because everything
- was censored.
- We had to be very careful.
- But what we did, we could send them food from Japan.
- So we used to send them parcels.
- Like we used to buy some sausages, rice sausage,
- and tea, and coffee, things like this which you can send.
- And we used to send them the parcels.
- And we got a few postcards from them.
- And they did receive our parcels.
- But they were always complaining they didn't
- get enough letters from us.
- And so, we were in communication.
- And I still have those postcards to this day.
- And in those postcards they never complained
- about themselves.
- Because they had to move from their apartments.
- They have to find a place in the ghetto.
- And they were all living together.
- And it was very, very hard for them.
- But in their letters, they never mentioned it.
- They always used to say, how are you managing?
- How are you?
- Because I was the youngest one at home and my husband
- was also the youngest one in his family.
- So the families were always worrying
- how does two young people, how did they manage?
- So this was the communication what we had.
- And when we got to Vancouver, the war between--
- was not on yet between the United States and Germany,
- but that was before Pearl Harbor.
- And since Nate was before in New York working for this company,
- so our families used to send letters to New York.
- And then those people from this company
- used to mail it to us to Canada, to Vancouver.
- So we were still in communication with them
- until Pearl Harbor.
- Because the minute the Americans went into war,
- all this stopped.
- When did you find out what happened to them?
- We found out one after the war.
- Can you tell me--
- Oh, I'm sorry.
- And so we're here.
- We knew about these things happening,
- that this war was on.
- But we still were confident-- when we were in Vancouver,
- we were still confident that someday we're
- going to reunite with our families.
- Because our visa to Canada wasn't an immigration visa.
- It was a visa which plainly says on the passport,
- for the duration of the war.
- That's what it said.
- But the reason we did give our landing visa,
- our permanent visa here, because my husband joined the army.
- And because-- and after the war, because he was serving
- in the Canadian forces, we got right away our visa, the--
- it's not an immigrant visa, but our permission
- to stay in Canada, a citizenship.
- And when did you find out about the Holocaust?
- We found out about the Holocaust about in--
- right after the war ended, at the end of 1945.
- I got a letter from my sister-in-law, who survived.
- And she wrote me about what's happening to my family.
- That was the most terrible.
- I have this letter translated into English,
- because it came in Polish, so that my children would know.
- And she just told us the whole story
- of what happened to my family.
- Is that bad?
- No.
- Actually, on the lab it isn't too bad.
- I heard it though.
- Perhaps you could redo that.
- We're still rolling?
- Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] see how-- what's
- going to happen with this.
- Oh, some noise?
- Yeah.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- So-- Cut.
- Oh, now I--
- OK, and rolling.
- Speed.
- Hopefully [INAUDIBLE] while I'm talking.
- Could you tell me--
- We should [INAUDIBLE]
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- When did you find out about the Holocaust
- and what happened to your relatives?
- Well, I found out about the Holocaust
- and what happened to my relatives in the--
- after the war ended.
- Because I never knew about the camps.
- I didn't know anything about those things.
- We never heard anything.
- We knew there are some terrible things happening to our people.
- OK, I'm sorry.
- We'll cut.
- And rolling.
- So, what happened to your relatives
- that were left behind?
- And when did you find out about the Holocaust
- and the concentration camps?
- And how did you deal with that information?
- After the war ended, my sister-in-law survived the war.
- And she managed to get to Palestine I think.
- And she wrote a letter from there.
- And that was the first inkling what I
- had what happened to my family.
- I had no information.
- I would try to--
- Sorry, but the saw was there.
- Let's just-- why don't we--
- starting over.
- And rolling.
- Could you tell me when you found out about the Holocaust,
- how you found out about and literally what happened
- to some of your relatives?
- Well, I found out about the Holocaust after the war.
- And I got a letter from my sister-in-law,
- who survived the Holocaust and who was in Palestine
- and she found me.
- Well, maybe that was like 1946.
- But I already heard the rumors.
- And heard about the camps, and extermination camps,
- and what was happening, about a liquidation of the ghetto.
- We knew about the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
- And we really didn't know what happened to our family.
- Maybe somehow they survived.
- And for my sister-in-law I found out
- that my family really survived until the ghetto uprising.
- They had to be working in some different factories.
- Once you had that permit to work,
- you had a much better chance to survive.
- And after-- uh-oh.
- Uh-oh.
- So we have--
- What happened to your mother and father?
- We were living in Warsaw on the principle street in Warsaw.
- We had a beautiful apartment.
- But the place was not in the Jewish part of town.
- And the Jewish part of town was designated by the Nazis
- as the ghetto.
- So my family had to move from their apartment.
- And also my sisters, who were living
- in this same part of town as my parents and my brother.
- And they had to find accommodation
- in the ghetto part of Warsaw.
- So a few families moved together.
- And they survived the war until the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
- Mind you, one of my sisters, she didn't survive,
- she and her husband.
- Because they had a little boy, who at the outbreak of the war
- was about a year old.
- So he was maybe two or three years old at the time.
- It was in 1942.
- And he was just caught-- the boy was outside
- and he was caught by the Nazis.
- And my sister and my brother-in-law,
- who were just crazy, just like anybody would be
- about his child, ran after him.
- And they just lost their life and the boy did too.
- It was just extremely tragic.
- Now, my older sister and her husband,
- and she had a little child, who was a little girl who
- was about seven years old at the time, they survived just about
- till the end, until the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
- And when the Warsaw ghetto uprising,
- my brother had a chance to escape
- to the Aryan side of Warsaw.
- But it was already too late.
- Because in the meantime, the Warsaw ghetto uprising started.
- And they were all caught up in it.
- And when the uprising ended, they still survived.
- And they were all sent to a place called Poniatowa,
- which was not far from Warsaw.
- And the Germans established there factories making
- baskets and different things.
- It was just a pretense.
- And after a month being there, they
- were all told to dig some trenches like.
- And they shot them all.
- And they finished them all off.
- And that was the end of them.
- My father, on the other hand, actually, he died in 1942.
- That's what my sister-in-law wrote.
- Because there was an epidemic of typhus.
- And he was a victim of this epidemic.
- So he died a natural death.
- And as she said, we were so crying and so desperate
- when your father got so sick, but we didn't know what
- a blessing it was at the time, that he at least died
- a natural death.
- How about your mother?
- My mother, she died in Poniatowa, in this place.
- Can you just tell me in a general way
- that you lost your family to the Holocaust and not specifically,
- and how you found out?
- I came from a large family.
- In my own family, I was the youngest one.
- I had two older sisters and a brother, and my mother
- and father, of course.
- But we came from a very large family.
- I had many aunts.
- I had many uncles, a grandfather, and a grandmother.
- I had cousins by the dozens.
- And we were a very close family, very close knit family.
- And I lost all this.
- Every one of them was killed, were lost in the Holocaust.
- They just did not survive.
- And again, how did you find out about what
- happened to your family?
- I found out from two sources.
- One of them--
- Start--
- Can I just say something, before you-- so that you--
- you see, I'll tell you what.
- In 1967-- I got this letter from my sister-in-law as I told,
- you know.
- Well, we had to--
- I need to get that story because of sound problems.
- OK.
- But I want to tell you, because you asked me again
- exactly what happened to my family.
- She-- in 1968--
- 1968, I found a cousin who survived in Paris.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- And he-- no, I don't want to tell you this story.
- But you see-- but what--
- After the war, it was already 1945 at the end.
- We were looking for our family, hoping
- through all the different agencies, if anybody survived.
- But we never got any response.
- And then, I think it was beginning or so
- of 1946, which I got a letter from a relative of mine.
- And she described to me exactly what happened to my family.
- She happened to land in Palestine.
- It was not Israel yet.
- And she just wrote to me about everything
- which happened to my family.
- And my family really ended very tragically.
- Because after the Warsaw ghetto uprising,
- which they were lucky to survive,
- somehow, they landed in Poniatowa.
- And there, they were shot by the Nazis.
- Why is it so important for you to be here telling this story?
- Why?
- It is very important for me to tell this story
- because I am the only survivor of my family.
- I don't want their deaths to be just--
- I don't want to think that they just died without--
- for nothing.
- I think that's the least what I can do to perpetrate--
- I don't know how to say it--
- their memory.
- To keep their memory alive.
- To let the world know what bestiality,
- and inhumanity, and a cruelty of one human
- being to another, for no reason--
- for only one reason, that they were
- happened to be born Jewish.
- To me this bestiality, it's just beyond comprehension.
- And I always tell this story to my children and to my family.
- And my family, luckily, they are very much interested
- in my story and what happened to their--
- first, what their routes are and what happened to them.
- That's why I went twice back to Warsaw
- with some of my children.
- Because they wanted just to see where do they come from.
- It's very important for everybody
- to know where they come from.
- And I really don't want this story to be forgotten.
- I'm not getting any younger, that's for sure.
- And I won't be too long on this Earth.
- And I just don't want this story to be forgotten.
- It's just as simple as that.
- This is my story.
- This is all I have.
- Great.
- Were you shocked when you learned
- about-- you must have heard in the news
- and stuff about the Holocaust.
- Were you shocked when you heard?
- Or did you hear piecemeal?
- Did you hear--
- When I found out after the war what
- was happening to the people who were left behind,
- I still could not believe it.
- I mean, it was just hard for me to believe.
- And we were looking for our families.
- We couldn't find them.
- We didn't know what happened to them.
- But we still didn't lose hope, because maybe, somehow.
- But when we got this letter from my relative,
- what happened to my-- that was the most--
- I still remember to this day what a devastating--
- it was the most devastating day in my life.
- I mean, it's had to say the most,
- because this is just without beyond comprehension,
- absolutely.
- What can you say?
- Here I'm left.
- I mean, everything whatever was, no more.
- And yet, many people didn't understand that at that time.
- It was so unbelievable for many local people
- to understand what was happening to the Jewish people in Europe.
- And I'm not surprised.
- Because who can wonder even?
- I tell you now, when I watch all those documentaries,
- and the new things being found in the archives in Great
- Britain, or who had in the archives of Great Britain,
- or from Israel, or all those documentaries,
- I cannot believe.
- In as much as I cannot be angry at the new,
- young German generation, because they cannot have fault at what
- their fathers did, but when I see what happened,
- I can't believe that the world forgot--
- has such a short memory and forgot what
- the Germans did to the people.
- It's unbelievable.
- Not only that 6 million Jewish people were killed,
- 25 million Russian people were killed.
- I mean, the cataclysm was so great
- that I just can't believe that those things can be forgotten.
- And just as much as I cannot feel really angry at German
- people, the young generation, yet I have something inside
- of me.
- I said, my goodness, how the world can forget something
- like that.
- It's a very good question.
- Something just start?
- Yeah.
- Do you hear it?
- Yeah, but [INAUDIBLE]
- It's pretty low.
- Tell me the story once again about--
- located in Japan, about getting the visa to Canada.
- And you don't have to talk about having--
- just your reaction of getting it.
- When we finally got our visa to Canada,
- which was very hard to get because my husband
- only got one visa for himself, and he tried and tried again
- to get another visa for me.
- And finally, he was so desperate that he cabled to me to Kobe
- to come to Tokyo.
- And he said together maybe we will be
- able to do something about it.
- So, I immediately left by train to Tokyo and joined Nate.
- And we went to this fellow who was distributing those visas.
- And Nathan said to him, listen, I will just not
- go without my wife.
- You just have to find another visa for my wife.
- And through some efforts--
- I don't know, maybe he went to this Polish embassy,
- they did manage to find another visa for me quite shortly.
- But we had very little time because we
- had to leave on this boat, which the passage was already
- arranged, within 24 hours.
- So, I had to leave immediately back to Kobe
- to pick up the few things, what we had, not too
- many, but still, like my pillow and all those things which
- so important to us.
- And I joined my husband in Tokyo.
- Then we boarded a boat in Yokohama.
- OK, how was the jet?
- Again, I heard it.
- You can tell me, describe to me again what it was like to--
- and tell me about the snow, and the dogs, and--
- Oh, OK.
- And about crossing the border into Lithuania.
- OK.
- When we decided to go to Lithuania,
- it wasn't like you take a train.
- We had to steal across the border.
- And we had a guide who was taking a few people with him.
- And he was living in the border city of Ejszyszki, which
- was on the Lithuanian side.
- And we started to walk.
- We came close to the border, by train or whatever.
- And then when we were a few miles from the border,
- we had to walk.
- And that was in the middle of winter.
- It was January.
- It was extremely, extremely cold winter.
- And the snow was just about to your waist line.
- And we had to walk across the snow.
- But the worst of it was, it was a very bright night.
- And there was-- the full moon was shining on the snow.
- So it was just like lit, like daylight,
- because the snow, the reflection off the snow.
- And we went ahead, Nathan and I, because we
- were younger than the other people behind us.
- And the people behind us, all of a sudden, we hear this noise,
- were caught by the Lithuanian border patrol.
- And we managed to escape.
- And we hid behind a little house, petrified, shaking.
- And all of a sudden, we hear these dogs barking,
- and barking, and barking.
- And we knew that the dogs are going to give us away.
- Finally, we saw a light in one house.
- It was a corner house, right on the border.
- We knock on the door.
- And the lady was good enough to let us in.
- She even gave us some straw on the floor.
- And we fell asleep because we were dead tired.
- When we woke up in the morning, the lady was gone,
- but then somebody knocked on the door.
- And that was some--
- that was our guide, who said, come on,
- you have to leave this house immediately,
- because this lady is an informer.
- And we left this house with this guide.
- And we went to the guide's house.
- And then from there-- we stayed a few hours in his house.
- And then by sleigh during the night he took us to Vilna.
- Great, Thanks.
- How old were you when you were a refugee?
- I was 19.
- OK, but--
- Oh--
- And--
- Forgot about it.
- Tell me does it seem like a whole lifetime ago?
- Well, it seems to me--
- Sorry, but tell me how old you were and--
- OK.
- Well, the war started on my birthday, OK.
- And I was 19 on September the 1st, 1939.
- To me, I felt quite mature, though my parents
- didn't think so.
- But now that I have a granddaughter who
- is 19 years old, I just can't imagine
- her to go through all what I did,
- because to me she's still a child.
- She's quite a smart and mature girl,
- but to think that I was 19 and I just left home.
- And I was not afraid, absolutely not afraid.
- The worst moment in my life-- one
- of the worst, because I had many--
- was when I left my house, escaping to the Russian side.
- And I was in this freight train.
- And I said to myself, what am I doing here?
- I was extremely scared.
- That was a very scary moment.
- And I felt like I want to go back to mommy and daddy.
- That's how I felt then.
- It was like--
- I still remember this feeling.
- It was such a deep feeling that to this day
- I remember this feeling of feeling completely alone.
- Where are you going?
- Great.
- No?
- OK.
- And rolling.
- So do you guys have any questions?
- But you're going to have to answer to me.
- Even if Norm asks you a question,
- you have to look at me.
- OK, one question that comes to mind--
- when you were in Warsaw, you were leaving
- to go to the Russian side.
- What were the last words that you said to your family?
- When I left Warsaw trying to escape
- to the Russian side, of course I was
- very excited about seeing my boyfriend, I have to tell you.
- I mean, the family is very important.
- But when you are a young girl, you
- are in love, your family, your mother and father
- become secondary, because really this man you love
- is uppermost in your heart.
- And I was very excited to go to be with him.
- I really wanted to be with him.
- So I was very sad leaving my family.
- First of all, I never expected not to see them again.
- I left, but I was going to see them again.
- My father used to tell me stories about World War I.
- And then the families were--
- they came through very bad times.
- But to me, it was sure the war won't last for very long.
- So the most unhappy I was when I found myself
- on the freight train away from my family
- on my way to see my boyfriend.
- I was very sad.
- I really felt-- that was the moment that I felt,
- I want to go back.
- And I kind of felt in my heart that maybe I
- won't see them again.
- That was the saddest moment in my life.
- Because it became true.
- Mm-hmm.
- Did I answer your question?
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- Yes.
- That was an excellent question.
- So you don't remember giving your mother
- a final hug or a kiss?
- Oh, no question about that.
- Should I say that?
- Yeah.
- Well, I was very excited to be escaping from Warsaw--
- not so much of escaping from Warsaw,
- but to join my boyfriend in Lvov.
- I never even think about the dangers of escape.
- I don't think my family either, because if they
- would know the dangers which is more than a simple border--
- we had to steal across the border.
- And they didn't even think that it's just serious,
- because my father gave me instructions that I
- have to be back in two weeks.
- So if I have to be in two weeks, of course
- I didn't take anything with me.
- As I say, I left my watch.
- I left my ring.
- I took nothing with me.
- Do you remember hugging and kiss--
- So of course, the goodbye was very sad.
- It was extremely sad.
- It was extremely sad for my parents, the goodbye,
- extremely.
- And I didn't feel the pain.
- We hugged and we kissed.
- And my sisters were still there.
- But I didn't feel the pain so badly
- until I was in a freight train with no way--
- I couldn't go back.
- And I just--
- I was there.
- It was the saddest moment in my life.
- Doug?
- Actually saw Canada for the first time from the boat?
- We came to Canada.
- It was July.
- We left Japan on the 26th of June.
- And we came to Canada.
- I think it was about 10th or 8th of July, something like that.
- The weather was beautiful.
- It was gorgeous.
- And there were a few people from the Jewish community here
- who were awaiting at the boat for those people who
- came, because we came with about other 10 people or 12 people.
- We were not ourselves only on this boat.
- And they took us to the Jewish community center there.
- And then they allocated--
- some people agreed to take us in.
- So we stayed with them for about three days.
- And then we found a house-keeping room,
- Nathan and I, for $3.50 a week.
- And we moved in there.
- And then we were just looking for a job.
- That's all we wanted.
- We just wanted to be working.
- We didn't care what and how.
- But we were excited to be in Canada.
- But we never even thought that we're
- going to stay in Vancouver, because Vancouver
- was a very small place.
- We were used to a big city.
- And besides, Nate has all the connections in New York.
- So we thought that eventually we were going to go to New York.
- But it never came to be.
- Does that answer your question, Doug?
- Mm-hmm.
- Any other questions?
- Norm, any?
- I just wondered if there was something else that--
- I think we're-- just hang on a second.
- How important was Sugihara to you?
- I think that Chiune Sugihara was a very--
- most important.
- Sorry.
- OK.
- You keep looking at Doug.
- You have to look at me.
- But let me start all over.
- I think that Chiune Sugihara was our savior.
- We never thought in different terms about him.
- But the problem was that we never knew his name.
- We didn't know his name until 1985.
- We didn't know who our savior was.
- We knew that it was a Japanese consul who
- gave us the transit visas.
- But that's it.
- We never heard about him.
- But he was our savior.
- My children feel very closely connected to it,
- because if it wouldn't be for him,
- we would have never survived.
- We would ended up like all the other people who
- didn't have the opportunity to leave Lithuania,
- because shortly after, Lithuania occupied by the Germans.
- And all the people in Lithuania were executed,
- all the Jewish people.
- So I think that, without Sugihara, I
- can only say one thing.
- We would have never survived.
- I have another question.
- Were you able to observe holidays in Vilnius
- and in Japan?
- When we're in Vilnius, there were really no major holidays
- what we would observe.
- But when we found ourself in Japan, there was holidays.
- Oh, let me start all over.
- But I don't remember.
- I don't--
- OK.
- Well, tell me the Japan story, about coming.
- OK.
- I remember that, in Japan, living together
- in this house with all those other people,
- we were observing Passover.
- And we had our Seder.
- That's the ritual meal.
- In our house, we even had matzah.
- We had everything which-- we made our own meal.
- We had fish.
- We had wine.
- And the matzah, I think, came from the United States.
- And the Japanese people, I want to tell you,
- were very, very accommodating.
- But the Japanese people, even though Sugihara gave our visas,
- issued our visas against the orders of his government,
- yet our reception in Japan was number one.
- To this extent, the Japanese people
- made sure that they have bread for all
- those European refugees, because they knew that we were not
- used to the rice diet.
- So we had to go to the Jewish community center there,
- and coming to pick up our bread, which
- was baked especially for us.
- They're very accommodating.
- OK.
- How did you feel about the Japanese
- after the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
- Well, I must say that, when I came to this country
- and shortly after, there was bombing of Pearl Harbor.
- And because of that, the Japanese people
- who were living in Vancouver were evacuated to camps.
- To me, that was a terrible thing.
- I was all with the Japanese people.
- I couldn't believe it, because I had such high image
- of the Japanese people.
- To me, they were heroes, each one of them.
- When I saw on the street, I would hug them.
- That's how I felt about the Japanese people.
- And really, it was very painful for me
- to see those Japanese people being
- evacuated from this coast.
- And I really mean it.
- It was very painful for me to see them being evacuated.
- I didn't know the language very well.
- There is not very much we could do.
- But I still remember it.
- I thought it was such an injustice.
- And I still feel very strongly about it.
- When did you learn English?
- Or did Nathan speak English?
- Well, Nathan spoke more English than I
- did, because he was for one year in the United States.
- And I started to take a little bit of English
- in Warsaw, but very, very little.
- And then I went to school here.
- Anything?
- You just sit quietly.
- So try not to move around.
- We're just going to record the sound of the room, OK?
- All right.
- I won't do this on the transcription tape.
- Rolling?
- 30 seconds.
- Yeah.
- OK.
- Good.
- Good enough.
- Thank you very much.
- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Susan Bluman
- Date
-
interview:
1999 July 12
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
4 videocassettes (Betacam SP) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Bluman, Susan.
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- Firstlight Pictures, a film production company contractor for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, conducted the interview with Susan Bluman on July 12, 1999 in preparation for the exhibition, "Flight & Rescue." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the tapes of the interview from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Exhibitions Division in July, 1999
- Funding Note
- The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:57:02
- This page:
- http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn508247
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Also in Oral history interviews of the Flight and Rescue collection
Contains oral history interviews with twenty Holocaust survivors and witnesses recorded in preparation for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's exhibition, "Flight and Rescue," which opened May 3, 2000. The interviewees discuss their experiences of their journey from Lithuania to Shanghai, China, via Japan
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