- [TEST TONE]
- Set a transcript card.
- Yeah, transcript's away, October 18th--
- August 18th, 1999.
- Yeah, we're rolling.
- OK, Max, where were you when World War II broke out?
- In my home town by the name of Janow.
- When you answer the questions, you're
- going to have to include the question
- or the subject of the question.
- So in other words, when I asked you,
- where were you when World War II started, you have to answer,
- when World War II started, I was in.
- OK?
- Because we don't know what--
- I'm going to be completely cut out.
- Yeah.
- So when did you--
- well, let's try that again.
- Where were you when World War II started?
- When World War II started, I was in my home town
- by the name of Janow.
- It's in eastern Poland.
- And when did you or how did you decide to leave Poland?
- I decided from the first minute the Russian came
- in and occupied our home town.
- I was already inquiring how to get out of it.
- How to get out of Russia.
- Do I keep going or do I answer your questions only?
- Well, you can keep going.
- I mean, I want you to tell--
- You can cut anything.
- Sure.
- OK.
- So why don't we start again.
- And why don't you tell me what motivated you to leave.
- OK.
- When the war started.
- Start at, you know.
- When the war started, our part of Poland
- fell into the Russian hands.
- From my youth, I was a Zionist and I always
- wanted to go to Israel.
- But once they occupied our country,
- I knew that there wouldn't be any possibility to get out
- from under the Russian regime.
- So I was starting to look ways how to leave my hometown
- and get out of this part of Europe.
- And the only places that we could go
- is either through the Romanian to Romania or to Vilna.
- Vilna was occupied by the Russians,
- but they gave it back to Lithuania, which Lithuania
- claimed it as its capital.
- So once we could get to Vilna, it
- would be under the Lithuanian regime.
- And from there, there might be a possibility to leave Europe.
- And in meantime, I started to ask all my friends
- which I could trust to find out ways if they ever hear of a way
- how to get there because everything was in chaos.
- The only thing, there was still a train going to Vilna
- through certain stops.
- And it was a very complicated way to get there.
- But I found out that Vilna was going
- to be returned to Lithuania.
- Then myself and another two friends,
- one by the name of Gottlieb and one by the name of Gorodecki,
- we found out that we can go to Lida.
- From Lida, I have to take a small gauge train
- to a certain city at the border of Lithuania and Poland,
- former Poland.
- Now, it was Russia.
- All right, so can you go back and tell me--
- you and a couple friends decided to leave.
- Did you leave your family behind?
- Well, I lived--
- So tell me-- you made the decision to leave,
- and what you took with you, and who you left behind,
- and what it was like crossing the border.
- OK, when do I start.
- Go ahead.
- When the Russian occupied our hometown, from the same moment,
- I started to look for ways to get out of Poland
- to Russia, whatever it was at that time.
- That time was Russia.
- And the only way that was left open
- was either Romania or Vilna.
- Which Vilna, by rumors, we knew that this
- is going to be returned to Lithuania
- and the Lithuanian government.
- And in meantime, we had some friends that lived in Vilna
- and told us that there are certain ways that you
- can come to Vilna.
- And they wrote us a letter and told us
- that the only way is you have to go to Lida,
- from Lida, backtrack with a small gauge train
- to a city on the border of Lithuania and former Poland,
- which by the name of Oswiecie--
- Swiecany, sorry.
- I don't need all the details.
- It took three--
- Hold on.
- OK.
- Tell us about it.
- It took three months to find the way how to get to Vilna.
- It wasn't a simple that you go and buy a ticket
- and go to Vilna.
- You had to go through many stops.
- And sometimes, you had to go backtrack sideways
- till we came to a city by the name of Lida.
- And from there, we went to the border
- between Lithuania and Russia, which was now
- under Russian government.
- And from that city, we had to get smugglers.
- There were special smugglers that took you over the border
- to Lithuania.
- Because the Lithuanians didn't let you in.
- And the Russians didn't let you leave.
- So what did you have with you?
- How did you?
- Was it in the snow or was it in sunshine?
- It was one of the hardest winters in my memory.
- Snow was up to my knees.
- And we had to go all night through the woods
- and through the snow till we came on the other side
- of the border.
- And the other side was also a little town.
- And we didn't know where to turn,
- but they told us the rabbi lived in this and this place.
- We went to the rabbi.
- It was, by the time we came-- from 12 o'clock to 4 o'clock,
- we were walking.
- And at the rabbi's home, of course,
- they took us in right away and gave us
- some hot food and some place to lie down to sleep.
- And we slept till about 8 o'clock.
- At 9 o'clock, there was a train going to Vilna from there.
- We have to disguise ourselves as local people, like peasants.
- And we put on peasant clothes and a peasant hat.
- And they gave us even a basket to hold
- in our hands covered with something, as if we are
- taking some produce to Vilna.
- Because the police were all around, looking for refugees
- which are pouring it into Lithuania, into Vilna.
- And this way, I came to Vilna.
- Coming to Vilna, we had there two friends
- which right away took us in.
- And the first night, we slept in their place.
- Which it wasn't much of a place.
- It slept two to a very small sofa.
- And the next day, we went to look for a place to stay.
- Of course, we didn't have too much money with us.
- But still, we had enough to get a room.
- And we found a place and we moved in there.
- And in Vilna, there was organizations
- right away supported by the United Jewish Appeal.
- At that time was the Joint Committee.
- And they organized the kitchens for people
- to come and have dinner.
- Of course, breakfast we had in our room
- and where we lived, with the family we lived.
- But dinner, we went to the--
- it was called the Club.
- It was the Zionist organization's club.
- And it was a restaurant, which was a very, very welcome.
- They welcomed us very well.
- And the food and everything was beautiful
- like in a four-star restaurant or five-star.
- And for a very nominal price.
- At that time, the price was like, say,
- 20% of a regular meal.
- And in Vilna we were looking for ways
- how to survive because we didn't have too much money with us.
- So right away, started to look to do some--
- to getting into commerce.
- If somebody want to sell something,
- I went to try to sell it for him.
- And this way, I kind of survived.
- But the Lithuanians didn't let us stay all in Vilna
- because Vilna was getting crowded.
- And besides, they were afraid of too many Polish citizens coming
- in into Vilna because actually, they
- took away Vilna from Poland.
- So they sent us out into small cities,
- dispersed is as far as it could be dispersed.
- And I with a friend of mine by the name
- of Gottlieb, Bernie Gottlieb, we went to a small city
- in Lithuania.
- Over there, we got acquainted with the Jewish community.
- And they were very nice to us.
- But we still had my money of our own,
- we didn't need their support.
- And then over there, I started to look for work.
- I come from a background of--
- my father was in the lumber business.
- And I was an expert in lumber.
- So I was young, but they I already
- knew lumber since a child.
- And over there, I got some jobs in lumber mills
- as a supervisor.
- Let me backtrack a little bit.
- Who did you leave behind?
- And how did you feel about that?
- Why didn't they come with you?
- You see, I left my parents and a brother,
- who was the last year in the Gymnasium.
- And when I went to Vilna, I didn't
- know where I'm going, what's going to be there.
- My brother begged me to take him with me.
- He was five years younger than I am.
- And I told him, listen, I am going.
- If there is a place for you or the place is good for us,
- then I'll send for you.
- Of course, my parents couldn't leave.
- We were well-established and besides that, we
- were in the lumber business, we had a flour mill also.
- And my father, my mother, they were
- born there, and with a nice house, and well-established.
- Nobody wanted to leave because you didn't know what's
- going to-- you never expected that the Germans will
- be such beasts what they did to us.
- So we figured that I'll go, one of us
- will go, and then see later how to help the others out.
- And that's why I left by myself.
- What was your departure like?
- Did you-- were you crying?
- Of course, we hugged, and kissed, and cried.
- Could you start over again?
- I was talking you, have to wait.
- Oh, OK.
- You see, it took us three months to find out a way
- how to get out of our hometown.
- And on a weekend, a friend of mine
- called me up that he found a way how to get.
- And I wasn't home, I was 40 kilometers from my hometown,
- which we had the mill there.
- And I came back right away.
- And Saturday night, we were supposed to leave.
- I came back Friday.
- Of course, I didn't tell anybody except a few--
- the family.
- And I went and said goodbye to everybody
- quietly and told them nobody should
- know that we're leaving, because if the Russian government would
- find out that we are leaving, they
- would arrest us right away.
- And then I had a few friends that I said goodbye,
- and of course, a few girls--
- one girl, actually, I said goodbye to.
- And of course, she was crying, and it was heartbreaking.
- But we had to leave, I know.
- And we left in the evening Saturday night.
- It was on December 20th.
- It was so cold that we never, didn't
- remember such a cold winter.
- So you had cold and snow, lots of snow.
- And as I told you, I went by train till Lida.
- From Lida, I took a small-gauge train to that little town
- on the border.
- And over there, we hired some smugglers who took us over.
- But we had to walk.
- You couldn't go by horse and their wagon or by sleigh.
- You had to walk all the way because you
- had to be very quiet.
- And you had to avoid from one side, the Russian border
- police, from the other side, the Lithuanian.
- And after four hours walking, it was very hard and cold.
- We came in into Lithuania, into that little town.
- And over there, I stayed a few hours.
- After having a hot breakfast, we went to Vilna by train.
- And in Vilna, I came.
- We had two friends that took us in.
- What did you take with you on this trip?
- I took with me only two changes of underwear, two shirts,
- an extra pair of pants, and an extra pair
- of shoes in a backpack.
- But I was very warm dressed.
- And I had a leather jacket but with fur underneath.
- And this way, we came to Vilna.
- Why did you hate the Russians so much
- and how did you figure out how to get out of Lithuania?
- You see, I was born into Zionist family to start with.
- Israel was our goal in life.
- As a matter of fact, I had a sister
- who left our home in 1929 and a brother
- who left in 1935 for Israel.
- And they were there.
- So I was going like home to Israel.
- It was very hard to leave Poland because you needed
- a certificate from the British government
- to get in into Israel.
- They had a quota.
- So many and so many could come in a year.
- And it was very hard, but somehow, my brother
- and my sister found a way.
- And they went to Israel.
- And when the war broke out, I was only
- thinking how to get out and get to Israel.
- And that was my main goal.
- We didn't know what's awaiting us in our hometown.
- Not that I could foresee it, nobody could foresee it.
- But one thing I knew, I don't want
- to be under communist regime.
- That I knew.
- And my goal was Israel, Israel from the first moment
- that I was conscious.
- OK.
- Did you realize that goal?
- And how did you get out of Lithuania?
- Well you see, by inquiring all around.
- First to try, I wanted to go to the Romanian border.
- By the time we found out how to get to the Romanian border,
- the Romanians closed the border.
- Didn't let in any more Polish citizens
- to go to Romania and from Romania.
- Even for transit, they didn't let anybody in.
- You're going to have to tell me, though, the shorter version.
- I appreciate all the details.
- I mean, I understand that you couldn't go to Romania.
- But you're going to have to--
- I need it in like 30 seconds.
- I know.
- OK.
- It's hard.
- OK.
- Hold on, one second, hold on.
- Wait a second.
- Someone's walking upstairs and it's
- a very sensitive microphone.
- How's his face, Eddie?
- It's holding.
- By looking around and asking around,
- we found out that the Romanian border was closed.
- They couldn't go out there.
- The only place that was left was Vilna.
- Vilna was still in the Russian hands.
- But the rumors were that Vilna is going
- to be returned to Lithuania.
- The Russians took away from Poland
- and now, they're going to give it to Lithuania.
- Of course, there were some strings attached.
- They Lithuanians had to give the Russians
- bases for some of the army and some of the air force.
- And that's why they came back Vilna to Lithuania.
- In Vilna, two friends of ours--
- not friends, but acquaintances lived in Vilna already.
- They were in Vilna already.
- They left.
- When Poland was still Poland, they left for Vilna.
- So they wrote a letter and described a way
- how to get to Vilna.
- We have Vilna covered.
- I want to know how you got out of Lithuania.
- Oh.
- In Lithuania, after they sent us out to a small city,
- I become friendly with a Jewish builder
- who built for the government, for the Lithuanian.
- OK.
- Can you start over again?
- I don't need the details.
- I don't need your friend.
- I just want you decided that you wanted to get out.
- What did you do?
- I went, of course--
- You're going to have to start over again.
- When we came to Vilna, we looked for ways to get out of Vilna.
- And we went to all the consulates there were.
- Of course, the consulates, by the time
- we came and started to look around,
- all the consulates left.
- Because the Russians didn't they don't need any consulate there,
- you have a Moscow consulate.
- And later, when they gave it to the Lithuanians,
- the capital was Kaunas.
- So they say, Kaunas they have consulates.
- But pretty soon, they closed all the consulate in Kaunas also.
- But there was a Japanese consulate,
- which they gave him two weeks to wind up his office
- and move to back to Japan.
- Because they don't need a consulate there.
- But this consul, by the name of Sugihara,
- he was one of the finest people, most men, [INAUDIBLE]
- men alive.
- And he saw what's going on, how they are trapping all the Jews.
- And he knew, probably, through the government, the Japanese,
- what the Germans having for--
- what they are planning to do with us.
- So anybody that came to him for a transit
- visa through Japan to any country in Latin America
- and in America or Cuba, any part of America,
- so he gave a transit visa for two weeks.
- So anybody had a paper, a certain paper,
- he came with this paper, and he stamped right away
- the Japanese visa on it.
- I found it out a little bit later.
- A friend of mine came to me and said that there is a way
- to get a Japanese visa.
- But I didn't have any documents with me.
- So I found out that people are forging documents and selling
- it.
- And I paid 1,000 rubles for a certificate
- that I am a Polish citizen, and I am
- waiting for a Polish passport.
- In meantime, these papers should serve me as a Polish--
- as a passport for all the authorities.
- So I came up with this paper to the Japanese.
- I went to the Japanese consulate,
- but he was already on his train back to--
- I was too late--
- back to Japan.
- So the people that gave me this passport,
- this so-called passport, gave me also a Panama visa.
- And they wanted to give me also a forged Japanese visa.
- Of course, the Panama visa was also forged.
- But the Japanese visa, I say, no, if I'm going through Japan,
- I want a real visa, not a forgery.
- I don't want to wind up in somebody else's prisons.
- So I didn't have a Japanese visa.
- But I went and applied to the Russian NKVD for a transit
- through Russia to Japan.
- They took the documents and they told
- me to come back in 10 days.
- I came back in 10 days.
- After 10 days, they posted on the wall
- who should come and pick up their visas.
- And in 10 days, I had my--
- posted my name.
- I came in.
- And the guy that gave out the visas looked at me
- and looked at the papers, and says,
- tell me, how much did you pay for this paper?
- I say, I made myself innocent, two zlotys.
- Two zlotys was the official government price
- for a document.
- So he smiles at me and says no, now, how much did you pay?
- And I made myself innocent, but he smiled and gave it to me.
- And I had the visa.
- Of course, now I had to buy tickets
- to get from Russia to Vladivostok and to Japan,
- which I got.
- It cost me 150 American dollars.
- You had to buy it from Russian interest.
- But you couldn't have any dollars in your pocket.
- So that was a dilemma.
- But still, they took it and went in.
- And when you came to the Russian interest office,
- they didn't ask you where you got it.
- They took your money and gave you the tickets.
- And I had 10 days to wait for a train.
- I took a train to Moscow, from Moscow to Vladivostok.
- But the next day, somebody came to me
- said the guys that sold you the visa, falsified papers,
- were arrested and they are giving out names.
- So you better be careful.
- I was staying at that time in Kaunas in a hotel.
- Right away, I went away from the hotel.
- And I slept, went to sleep in a friend's
- house, a private house.
- And I had a very good friend that had a ticket for next day.
- And he came to me, says, listen, give me your ticket.
- I have time to wait.
- Because all his papers were on the level, no falsification,
- nothing.
- He says, and take my ticket.
- And next morning, the train is leaving for Moscow.
- And that was a sacrifice on his side,
- because under the Russian government,
- you never knew what kind of law in the next 24 hours
- will come out.
- So next morning, I went to Moscow.
- In Moscow, they took us in in a beautiful hotel.
- Because we were as foreign citizens and as transit people.
- So they gave us the best hotels.
- Which we paid for it.
- And the minute we came there, we started
- to look for a way to get a visa someplace.
- Because we knew Panama wouldn't let anybody in.
- Because the American government closed
- the canal, the Panama Canal.
- And they didn't let anybody in into Panama.
- So I went first to the American consulate.
- And I showed them I have a Panamanian visa,
- I need an American transit.
- So he looked at me and he says, Panama is a closed place.
- You cannot get into Panama.
- So sorry, I can not give you a visa.
- From there, I went to the English consulate
- to try to get a visa to Israel.
- Can we--
- Too much time?
- The rain.
- No, that was good.
- It was a plane.
- [TEST TONE]
- Rolling.
- Could you tell me that story again?
- When the Lithuanians sent us out to a small city into Lithuania,
- dispersed most of the refugees, as many as they could--
- because they were afraid for the Polish people
- might plot against them.
- So they sent us out.
- Besides, they didn't want too many people unemployed
- in one place also.
- So I had to go through a certain city before I came to the place
- that they sent me.
- And over there, the Jewish population,
- the Jewish committee organized that right away they
- took us in and sent us to a family for dinner.
- It was Purim holiday, I believe.
- And they took us in like children,
- like their own children.
- And there was maybe 20 people at the table.
- And I was sitting and thinking, the first time
- I'm getting charity.
- Somebody is inviting me for a meal
- which is not from my family or from my home town.
- And in middle, I had to go out, and I cried like a baby.
- I never cried as hard as I cried at that.
- Then after a while, I came in and sat down
- and I finished the meal.
- Try and keep looking at me.
- You keep looking at the camera or at Eddie, I don't know.
- I do?
- Yeah.
- You keep looking over here.
- And just keep looking at me.
- Could you tell me what range of emotions
- you had on this trip, on this journey?
- On journey home--
- I mean from leaving my hometown?
- Leaving your hometown or while you were in Vilna.
- Were you afraid, were you courageous?
- No, we weren't afraid.
- The only thing we were afraid--
- after about eight months, the Russians
- came and occupied Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.
- First they gave a part to the--
- I don't want to know the--
- I just want to know, what did you feel?
- We felt again that we are trapped again.
- We are again in a trap, and how to get out from there?
- Of course, there was very few ways you can get out.
- And the only way we knew is either
- to go to Odessa to Israel or to Japan,
- through Japan to get out.
- There was one place open, which was Shanghai.
- But we didn't know much about Shanghai.
- The only thing I knew about Shanghai
- that when we were teenagers and made a lot of noise
- in the evening, so our policemen used to shout at us,
- where do you think you are, Shanghai?
- Making so much noise.
- That what we knew about Shanghai.
- So after looking for ways to get out,
- so the only way that was left for me
- was to buy falsified papers and get out
- of Lithuania through Japan.
- And once we got out of the Russian sphere,
- we didn't mind where to go.
- We didn't care too much.
- Our goal was just to get out of Russia, that was our goal.
- And with these falsified papers, I
- got the Russian permit, which was a very big thing
- to get out of Russia.
- And by buying tickets to Tsuruga, Japan
- we were very lucky, really.
- And the Russians were very nice to us.
- Because we were considered tourists.
- And tourists, they gave you the red carpet.
- Everywhere you came in Russia, any hotel,
- they gave us the best rooms, the best restaurants,
- the best food, everything.
- Very polite.
- So when I came to Moscow, in Moscow,
- we started to run around from consulate to consulate.
- I even went to the Syrian consulate and asked for a visa
- through Syria to Israel.
- But of course, everybody said no.
- So what was I--
- we're left.
- We are three days in Moscow.
- On the fourth day, we had to leave by train to Vladivostok.
- And the ride to Vladivostok took between seven and eight
- days and nights.
- Of course, we had very comfortable quarters.
- We had wagon D, Pullman wagons, and a [INAUDIBLE] cabin.
- But to get on the train, you had to show that you
- have Japanese transit visa.
- And I didn't have it.
- When I came to the Japanese consulate,
- and I showed him a cable that I got from the consulate
- from Vladivostok.
- In answer to my cable to him, I had told him
- that I had a Panama visa and I'd like
- a transit, a Japanese transit.
- So he answered me that the Japanese transit, you'll
- get in Moscow.
- So I took it for I'm going to get it in Moscow.
- When I came to Moscow and asked for a transit visa,
- he says, you are reading it not the right way.
- Well, it doesn't say that you will get in Moscow.
- You get it in Moscow, he says, but if Moscow doesn't give,
- we don't give any more visas, transit visas.
- So sorry, we can't do anything for you.
- So the only way was to get to Vladivostok.
- Because they told us, some people
- told us, that in Vladivostok, the consulate
- is also very liberal.
- And he was giving out visas.
- But to get on the train, you couldn't get on
- unless you had a Japanese transit.
- And the passport was in--
- the papers that was my passport was in the hand of the NKVD.
- When we came in the hotel, the receptionist
- who took right away before they gave us
- the rooms our passports, and the receptionist was NKVD also.
- So when you leave, you had to get your papers out.
- When it came the day that we leave,
- so I had friends on there.
- And I told him, take my valise.
- Take it to the train.
- And I'll somehow, I'll come and I'll get on the train.
- How and what, I don't know.
- But I will.
- And when they all left, I went out with them to say goodbye,
- they went all in taxis.
- And I called over a taxi, I say, please wait for me here.
- I am also going to the train, but I
- need another five minutes.
- So he says, OK, he'll going to wait for me.
- And they all left running to the receptionist.
- And as if I was running all the way, and I says,
- I forgot my passport.
- I forgot to take out my passport.
- And the taxi's waiting for me because I'll miss my train.
- So she asked me, do you have a Japanese transit visa?
- I say, of course.
- And she took out the passport.
- By some miracle, didn't look.
- And gave it to me.
- And I went on the train.
- On the train, you had to come over, there was a guide.
- The guide was NKVD, of course.
- And when you came on the train, you
- had to come over with your papers and registered.
- But I came in, I don't have it.
- Right away, they looked for a Japanese transit.
- So when I came in, the same visas another two fellows had.
- The same visas as I had.
- So he came in and asked the fellows, what shall we do?
- We cannot go and register with him,
- because he'll throw us off the train.
- So I said let's hide him in time.
- So I went into our-- we had assigned places.
- When we sat in the places, and we told our friends
- that if they NKVD man comes looking for us, let us know,
- and we'll some time get out from this wagon into another one.
- Which we did every time they came to look for us.
- They knew on this places has to be another three fellows.
- So we were on another wagon.
- When we came to the other car, we went into the bathroom.
- So this way, we avoided them for all these eight days
- on the train.
- When we came to Vladivostok, there
- came some people who were waiting for a steamer to Japan
- from Vladivostok.
- And they had-- and some people knew them.
- And they had a friend on this train.
- So they came up and we started to ask them, what do we do?
- We don't have a visa.
- He says, come down.
- The Japanese consulate is giving visas here.
- So I went over right away to the NKVD man
- and we said, listen we heard that you are looking for us.
- So he said, what do you mean?
- And he started to berate us.
- Seven, eight days I am after you and I can not find you.
- Where were you?
- What do you think you are?
- And right away, he called us over
- and took us into a black limousine, a Zim,
- which was the best the car in Russia,
- and took us to the hotel, to the best, Chelyuskin Hotel.
- And he registered us, took away the passports,
- and gave it to the receptionist, which again was NKVD and left
- us.
- And on the way, we were thinking that they
- are going to take us right away to jail and to Siberia.
- One place they could send us to Siberia.
- And of course, we were despaired, but what could
- we do?
- We couldn't do anything.
- But when he came, and he let us free,
- and gave us rooms, and all this, we were dancing from joy.
- But then it started again.
- I have to get a visa.
- Next morning, we went over to the consulate
- and showed him the papers.
- And then looked at it and says, everything is OK,
- the only thing is you have to show us
- you have landing money Japan plus tickets from Japan
- to the United States.
- Landing money was at that time about $120,
- I believe, $150, which was more than I
- could dream of at that time.
- By the time I came paying for the tickets in Lithuania,
- by the time I came to Vladivostok,
- I was left with a $5 bill and two Palestinian pounds.
- That was all.
- But I had a Sema watch, a good Swiss watch.
- So there were people that were knew order
- the city, who were waiting for a steamer to Japan.
- And they knew that there is a market for watches.
- Watches for the Russians was the first priority.
- To get a watch was a prestige.
- So I said, I can get you $50 for it.
- So I said, be my guest, take it.
- And he brought me $50.
- And I was a rich man with a $50.
- Then I went to the consulate, and the consulate,
- he told us what the problem is.
- He says, If you will show me that you
- have landing money in Japan in order
- to exist in Japan and the tickets to the United States,
- then I'll give you a transit visa.
- So where do we get it?
- So we had friend left over in Lithuania
- that couldn't get the visa.
- And I made up with them that in case we need any papists,
- we'll cable, and you'll send us out.
- So I went right away to the cable office
- and I sent a cable.
- I need landing money in Japan, and Thomas Cook and Company,
- and tickets should wait me, is waiting for me in Thomas Cook.
- And within eight or 12 hours, I got a cable
- that landing money and tickets are waiting for you
- in Thomas Cook in Tokyo.
- And you go and pick it up.
- And the Russian cables were made with strips,
- like the market used to go in strips.
- So you could arrange any way you wanted.
- It was glued on on paper.
- So I arranged it the way I figure it sounds plausible.
- And with this, I came to the consulate again next day.
- When I showed him the papers, he says everything
- is OK, but no signature.
- Who sent it?
- I say, what do I know?
- That's what I got from Thomas Cook, the cable.
- So he looked at it, he says, I don't know,
- he says, come tomorrow.
- So again was a problem, but what did I do?
- I was afraid to falsify somebody's signature.
- And I had there, Thomas Cook mentioned there three times
- of what I'm--
- I could have put down Thomas Cook.
- But I was afraid.
- But it's done.
- What's done is done.
- I came back next day, and I say, we came to pick up our visas.
- And lo and behold, we got the visas.
- And then we have to wait another five days till the ship came.
- And it was a cattle ship, of course,
- which took in 300 people.
- We slept on straw on the decks and it was terrible.
- But when the pilot left the ship coming out of Vladivostok,
- we all went up on the deck and started to dance--
- sing and dances Israeli songs.
- We were freed of chains.
- The feeling was now we are free.
- Whatever happens to us, we are free people.
- And that was the most joyous, the most dance
- and the most joyous time that we had.
- Then, after three days, we came to Japan and Tsuruga.
- In Tsuruga waited for us a fellow by the name of Yonis.
- He was the brother-in-law of the Israeli ambassador
- later to the United Nations.
- OK, I don't need that.
- So tell me, tell me a little bit--
- could you repeat the part about dancing
- and why you were so joyous?
- It's because you weren't under Russian rule?
- We came out of the Russian--
- Right, but say, say Russia.
- Wait a second.
- Wait for John to finish before you tell us.
- And then tell me what it was like to see Japan.
- OK, it was green?
- It was beautiful?
- So start with when you got on the ship.
- And why did you dance?
- Why were you so joyous?
- When we got on the ship, of course
- there was a Russian pilot on the ship taking us out of the port.
- So we waited, we were very quiet.
- Try again.
- We just had a horn there three times.
- Sorry, from outside on the track.
- So when you were leaving Russia for Japan.
- To go to Japan.
- Start clean, wait for John to finish, and then tell us.
- You have to start without me talking,
- because I can't be on the soundtrack.
- When we went on the ship to go to Japan,
- there was a Russian pilot taking the ship out of the port.
- We were very quiet and waited for him to get off.
- As long as we are on the Russian waters,
- we knew that we are not free yet.
- When the pilot left the ship and about five minutes later, we
- waited for him to go to get a distance between us
- and the Russian pilot, we went on the ship
- and started to dance and sing.
- And that was the most joyous moment of our lives
- until that time.
- Because here, we came out from a country
- that to us, it looked horrendous.
- The communist regime for us was something that I cannot
- describe.
- You see, you were in constant depression
- there because you knew there was no way out of there.
- And times will get from bad to worse.
- And that, we found out soon which it was true.
- And then when we came out of their sphere,
- we were the happiest people in the world.
- Of course, the event, three days was
- horrendous because it was the stench
- and the sickness of the people.
- Everybody was sick.
- But I didn't go down, I slept on the deck.
- Even if it was cold, I still slept on the deck.
- After three days, we came to Tsuruga.
- Over there was waiting for us a fellow
- off from the Jewish committee, from the JewCom by the name
- of Yonis.
- And he called out names that he has letters for some people.
- And my name was also called out.
- He gave me an envelope.
- I opened up.
- And I found a note from a friend that
- left before me, the same friend that gave me his tickets to go
- from Vilna to Tsuruga.
- So he sent me, if I'm not mistaken,
- three or four yen, which was--
- 20 cents a yen was either 80 cents or 60 cents.
- But it was a tremendous amount of money.
- Because when we come out on the port, the sun was shining,
- it was summer.
- And the fruits and vegetables that we saw there,
- we never saw in our life.
- Exotic fruits.
- And all the beautiful peaches, and oranges, and everything.
- And I went for one zloty, and I bought so much
- that I couldn't carry it.
- For one yen, I'm sorry, which was 20 American cents.
- And I divided right away with all my friends and everybody
- that came.
- And we had the time of our life.
- Then we went on a train for three and a half hours
- it took us to get to Kobe.
- In Kobe, they took us to they called it homes, it was hotels.
- The Jewish committee rented hotels, Japanese hotels,
- and put us about 17, 18 people in a room.
- But it was tremendous, big rooms.
- They had mattresses for us, and blankets, and linen.
- And we were free people.
- We were as happy as slugs.
- We didn't know what's going on there, of course, in Poland.
- And from there, we are looking for ways to get someplace.
- So transit was for two weeks.
- After the two weeks, they prolonged it
- for another two months, and kept prolonging it from March
- till December.
- Of course, we were looking for ways to get out.
- You couldn't get from anybody any visa,
- so we were thinking of smuggling ourselves
- on an American ship as stowaways.
- Two people did it, or three.
- And I was on the ship with them, but I didn't
- have any documents with me.
- So I figured, maybe next ship.
- And that was the last steamship that left Shanghai--
- Japan, I mean.
- And the Japanese stopped giving us
- any more to prolong our transit visas, and we had to leave.
- The only place to leave, where can you go?
- Shanghai.
- Shanghai was an open city, anybody could go to Shanghai.
- So we had for the 30th of November or 1st of December.
- And we had to leave.
- Of course, they told us about Shanghai
- that it's a terrible place.
- The heat is unbelievable.
- Just wait for the siren.
- What was life like in Japan?
- Did you enjoy it?
- In Japan?
- Were you a tourist?
- Wait for John to finish.
- Wait for me to finish asking the question.
- So what was your life like in Japan?
- Did you enjoy it?
- We enjoyed it, every minute of it.
- Sorry, start with something like life in Japan was.
- Life in Japan for us was a joy.
- It was summer, we came from a cold country.
- And there was the sunshine.
- Sorry, we need to cut.
- So you took quite a few risks.
- Yes.
- Could you elaborate on that?
- Could you start with saying, I took quite a few risks
- because I was young or whatever?
- Because I was young and there was no way out.
- But you have to let me know what you're talking about.
- You see, when we tried to get out of Japan,
- there was no place you could go except to Shanghai.
- Shanghai, they described us, was hell on earth.
- The heat was unbearable.
- People used to work in the street,
- and the sweat used to come down your pants.
- And people are dying from hunger there.
- And so many terrible things they told us.
- So we were looking for a way to get out
- to go to the United States.
- The only way you could get if you couldn't get a visa
- is as stowaways on a ship.
- Two friends of mine, acquaintances, went this way,
- went on the ship.
- And I was with them at that time.
- And I went up on the ship also.
- And I could also hide myself there.
- But then I didn't take my documents with me.
- I had no documents at all.
- And I figured, ships are coming in every week,
- and I'll do it on a second one.
- And besides, three people in one ship, maybe it's too much,
- maybe I'll be by myself.
- And that's what I went off.
- And they went away, and they came to the States.
- And I later heard that they had a difficult time.
- But somehow, they became citizens.
- From that time on, there are no more
- Americans came to call on Yokohama in the port
- because it was already close to December.
- And I had to leave at the beginning of December
- on the last day in November.
- And we went to Shanghai.
- There was no other way, no place to go.
- So we went to Shanghai.
- Of course, we were heartbroken.
- But still, we were young, so we figured, listen,
- people live in Shanghai so it couldn't be that bad.
- And we came there and I had a few friends already there.
- And they came to get me from the steamboat.
- And they took me to a room which they rented for me.
- And it didn't look so bad, it looked pretty good,
- as a matter of fact.
- I came there right away, they took me out for dinner,
- with a lot of schnapps, of course,
- and for some entertainment.
- And we had a wonderful time.
- Of course, it was hot, but the center was already nice there.
- And I couldn't see how bad it could be there.
- As a matter of fact, we had a very good life there.
- After nine days, the war broke out.
- The American Pearl Harbor was in the eighth,
- I believe, of December.
- At night, at 4 o'clock in the morning,
- we knew the war broke out because we heard explosions.
- And when we came out in the morning,
- Japanese were standing in all the corners with bayonets
- on their rifles and right away told
- us to get back in in the houses, which we did.
- For three days, they didn't let us out of the houses.
- After three days, they took all the patrols,
- they took all the police, and you were free to go anyplace,
- anywhere you want.
- So what we found out that the Americans sank their gunboat
- when the Japanese came to ask them to surrender.
- So of course, they told them nuts,
- and they opened up all the hatches and everything,
- and sunk the ship, and exploded them, some of them.
- And that was the war.
- [TEST TONE]
- OK, so tell me about life in Japan again.
- How was your life in Japan?
- When we came to Japan--
- Oh, I'm sorry.
- Camera just went into my little booth here.
- Oh, yeah, sorry.
- Sorry.
- Here we go.
- Just like, yeah, I'll have to take an inch there more.
- Is that it?
- That's fine.
- So tell me what was life like as a refugee in Japan?
- Where you were a tourist?
- How did you occupy your days?
- When I came to Japan, Japan looked like paradise itself.
- It was green, there wasn't a inch of land
- that wasn't utilized.
- And the people were the most polite, wonderful people for us
- as refugees, or as they called us, tourists.
- The reason that they were so nice to us,
- we found out being there, was that when the Japanese occupied
- Manchuria in 1937.
- The United Nations at that time was the--
- OK, we're not going to--
- No?
- You don't want to--
- We can't use that story.
- No, OK.
- Because I want to tell you why they
- were so nice to the Polish refugees.
- Yeah, no.
- No, OK.
- Just tell me-- can you hear in the background, Mark?
- No, why?
- OK.
- Just tell me your impressions of Japan,
- what your daily life was like, what--
- you know, did you play cards?
- Did you go visit Temples
- OK.
- When I came to Japan, the first day we looked around,
- of course, and we went right away
- to register in the Jewish Committee, which
- was in the center of the city.
- From there, we went to explore the city
- and see some markets full of fruits, and vegetables,
- and very little meat.
- But some fish.
- And we looked at the Japanese, and they
- were all the cleanest people we ever saw.
- And everybody was so polite to us that it's unbelievable.
- If we went someplace and lost our way,
- anybody that could help us, helped us.
- If they couldn't speak any English--
- which we didn't ourself, we knew a little.
- But somehow, they knew a few words.
- So they took us to a police station,
- where they always got somebody that could understand us.
- Either Russians spoke with the Russian, or the German,
- or any other language.
- And some of them, the richer people,
- used to put us in a taxi and take us home.
- I mean, it's unbelievable how nice they were to us.
- And our day started, of course, after breakfast.
- We went to explore places.
- There was beautiful places in the mountains.
- There was ballet.
- There was a seashore, which was white and beautiful.
- We used to go bathing for a few hours a day.
- And then we used to, in the evening,
- we used to come to the Jewish Committee, where
- all the refugees used to come together.
- And we used to see the bulletin boards
- and hear all the news, where can you go,
- what country would let you in, and this and that.
- And while we lived in the hotels, or the homes
- what they called, we had a wonderful people there.
- And we had a good time among ourselves.
- This one went to the theater or to a dance,
- and this one went here and there.
- And we spent our days really in a wonderful way.
- Because of course, we came from a little town
- and a lot of things was new to us.
- And the country was so beautiful.
- And the people were so polite.
- But main occupation was to look for places
- how do we get a visa someplace to leave Japan
- and not to go to Shanghai.
- So our time in Japan was really most of the time beautiful.
- We really enjoyed being in Japan.
- How did you end up going to Shanghai?
- What-- Wait a second, sorry.
- Yeah.
- But you know, did they force you to go to Shanghai?
- Yes.
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- That's what I want to know.
- And go ahead.
- After our two weeks of transit went by,
- they prolonged it for two months, of course
- with the help of the Jewish Committee.
- And after the two months, again for two months and two months.
- From March till December.
- When it came end of November, we got the notice
- that you have to leave Japan.
- Wherever you want to go, you can go.
- But of course, there was no country that we could go to.
- So the only place left was Shanghai.
- And in Shanghai, we had very sad stories about Shanghai.
- And they were reluctant to go there.
- But when there was no way, you had to go to Shanghai,
- you went.
- So this way, we went to Shanghai.
- And when I came to Shanghai, I saw
- that all the stories that they told us, although in some way
- it's true, but in other ways, people
- lived there like kings, some of them.
- There was a nice Jewish community.
- There where Russian troops that ran away from the World War I,
- from the revolution in Russia.
- And they were established with clubs,
- with the old the luxurious you could think of.
- Shanghai was a city at that time of about 5 million people.
- And Shanghai was called the Pearl
- or the Paris of the Orient.
- All the luxuries in the world you could find in Shanghai.
- Best restaurants, there was clubs, all kinds, and night
- clubs, and organizations.
- So you could live a beautiful life there, and we did.
- The only thing, we had to look for ways
- to make a living there.
- And we found how to make a living.
- After eight days being in Shanghai, Pearl Harbor,
- the war broke out, American-Japanese War.
- After three days, the Japanese kept us-- for three days,
- they kept us in the houses.
- You couldn't go out.
- After three days, we were free to go any place we wanted.
- So right away, I pooled my resources
- with another two friends of mine and we went out where to buy--
- money in time of war is, you can not
- do much with it except when you have merchandise so you
- can buy for it something.
- So we went out and bought six sacks of rice, 200 pounds each.
- 1,200 pounds.
- And we figured, people have to eat
- and the imports won't be anymore.
- So Japan had so much foreign merchandise in its warehouses
- that we are bursting of it because Shanghai
- was its distribution place for all China.
- So I went to--
- in Shanghai was with us also a yeshiva, the Mirrer Yeshiva,
- which they brought them over from Poland, through Japan,
- to Shanghai.
- And we went to the head rabbi and we told him
- that we have six sacks of rice.
- You have to feed 300 people.
- They had 300 students.
- So we says, we will sell you.
- We want a small profit.
- I paid so much.
- And so he got a nice, small profit, which really wasn't
- much, a small percentage.
- But for us, it was enough to live a month on it.
- And from this, we started to buy all kinds of foreign goods
- and resell it to the population, to the Jewish population there.
- And also, we started to get connections
- with Chinese merchants, which they
- were the most skillful, most excellent merchants
- in the world.
- We thought that the Jews are good merchants,
- but they could sell us and buy us twice a day.
- And we started to ask them, what kind of goods
- are you looking for?
- Or what kind of goods you want to get rid of?
- And we're starting to go and try to sell it.
- And we succeeded and we made a nice living there.
- And we didn't make money.
- But if you made a transaction once a week,
- you had enough for the week to live.
- But so we did it, and this way you existed.
- And life was beautiful in Shanghai for us.
- But the only thing that the Japanese,
- after about six months or eight months, they want
- put us in a ghetto.
- The ghetto was actually like a part of New York, like Hong--
- like the Bronx or Brooklyn.
- You could live only in the Bronx.
- Where they put us in is Hongkew, Hongkew
- was a suburb of Shanghai.
- But in that suburb were two million people
- or one and a half million.
- Chinese mostly, some Russians, and some Jews.
- And we had to find quarters there.
- And we lived there.
- We could live anyplace we wanted in Hongkew, but not
- in the main part of Shanghai.
- The main part was the French concession, the English,
- the Japanese--
- Japanese was in Hongkew, actually.
- French and English mostly.
- But you have to live only in this part of--
- and they put up barriers in each street
- that you came out from Hongkew.
- Like to go to the main part of Shanghai.
- And then they put there some policemen, civil policemen.
- They selected from the Jewish people.
- The Jewish Committee had to appoint policemen,
- who they paid a small fee.
- And in order to get out to go out of Hongkew,
- you had to get a passport.
- A pass which is good for, let's say, from 8 o'clock
- in the morning till 7:00 in the evening.
- In order to get this pass, you had
- to go to the Japanese police.
- And there was the head of the police,
- of the Jewish section in the police,
- was a fellow by the name of Goya.
- Goya wasn't a giant, he was, as a matter of fact,
- under five feet.
- And he was a scroungey little guy.
- He didn't look more like a 12-year-old boy.
- But he was a tyrant.
- When you came to him for a visa to get--
- for a passport to get out of Hongkew,
- you had to show that you have employment
- outside of the ghetto.
- And this was for us a small problem.
- We had friends and came to them, give me
- a letter that you are employing me.
- And then they gave us willingly.
- We came with this.
- And with this, we got a permit for five day, six days
- a week you could get out, except Sundays.
- And from, let's say, from 8:00 to 7:00 in the evening.
- But he was a tyrant and a stupid guy also.
- And some people who didn't know how smoothly
- to answer his questions, he used to hit them.
- That he couldn't reach them where do
- we hit a person in the face.
- So he used to stand up on a chair and hit people.
- And who got most of the beatings were the German refugees.
- Because in Shanghai was 20,000 German Jewish refugees
- and 1,000 Polish refugees.
- But the Germans were guys that were professionals,
- like lawyers, doctors, professors, chemists.
- All these guys didn't know how to go around them.
- So when they asked him a question, they told the truth.
- And the truth wasn't good.
- So he used to climb up on a chair.
- It could be a professor, a doctor,
- and he used to hit them in the face.
- And when you had to go to get the permit,
- every month you had to renew it.
- And they were dreaded it.
- We weren't afraid.
- We were very smooth in telling them what they wanted to hear.
- So we made a very nice living.
- But some refugees lived in homes.
- We lived in private rooms or private houses.
- But there were a big a part of the refugees lived in homes.
- There was five homes, I believe.
- They gave them shelter, they gave them there.
- And they gave them some provisions for the day.
- And once a day, a hot meal.
- That everybody could come, and even
- if you lived in a private room or you had money,
- you could come to get a hot meal during the day.
- But we didn't need it.
- But these people existed only on these provisions.
- And a lot of them we were really desperate.
- And a lot of them committed suicide among the German Jews.
- But otherwise, we-- myself and my friends--
- we lived a pretty normal life.
- Of course, we were unattached bachelors.
- If they said we couldn't go out of the ghetto, we played cards.
- At night, we played cards.
- We had there coffee houses.
- We used to play, in the coffeehouses,
- we used to play cards.
- Then one day, they surrounded the cafes.
- Great.
- I don't need that story.
- That was good.
- How did you finally leave Shanghai?
- How did I leave Shanghai?
- We started to look for a way to leave, of course.
- When it opened up, I had a brother and sister in Israel.
- We got in touch with them.
- They sent me papers to go to Israel.
- But somehow, the papers or the certificate
- that I was supposed to get got lost.
- It didn't get lost, somebody else got it.
- The people that were taking care on it--
- somehow, when they got the certificate,
- they divided among people, probably,
- that they knew, or cared, or from their organizations.
- So I couldn't get the visa.
- My brother and sister were despondent there.
- But the communications was very bad at that time.
- It was 1945, '46.
- So next, I started to look for a way
- to get to the United States.
- I had two uncles here and some cousins.
- So in order to get here, I had to get a letter
- from an organization that I am employed
- or they are going to employ, like a school.
- I knew Hebrew very well so they sent me a letter as a teacher.
- I'll be employed in a certain school as a teacher.
- With this, I went to the American consulate
- and I got a visa.
- And that was in 1947.
- In September '47, I left Shanghai
- and came to the United States.
- When did you find out about the Holocaust?
- And who did you lose in the Holocaust?
- Wait for John.
- OK.
- In 1945, by the end of '45, rumors
- started to come in that there was a Holocaust.
- But we couldn't grasp the enormity of the thing.
- So by bits and pieces, started to get
- the truth what happened there.
- And of course, I left a family of father, mother, a brother,
- and uncles and aunts.
- In the family was probably, in the extended family,
- about 50 people.
- And with the cousins, lots of cousins, from babies to older.
- And we found out what happened.
- And then it started, the newspaper
- started to publish what happened.
- Could you tell me again when you found out about the Holocaust
- and what happened to your family?
- We didn't know what happened to our family.
- The details, we couldn't get any.
- Right.
- But tell me when you found out what happened to your family.
- And tell me that they were killed.
- I'm not telling the story.
- So you have to tell me the story.
- The details, I found out in the United States.
- OK.
- But start with-- when did you find out about the Holocaust,
- and then go.
- We found out about the Holocaust in beginning of 1945.
- I'm sorry.
- Could you just tell me that you were in Shanghai when you
- found out about the Holocaust.
- And then tell me how long it took for you to find out
- what happened to your family.
- And tell me what happened to your family.
- In the middle of 1945, when the German-Russian War
- was finished, they started to publish
- in the newspaper about the Holocaust,
- but no details about how they destroyed the European Jewry.
- This was hard to come by.
- You had to talk to eyewitnesses.
- But then, I got letters also from Israel
- that our family is no more.
- Nobody of our family is alive.
- Of course, when the war was finished,
- I tried to send letters to my hometown,
- but they got lost on the way because communication
- was horrible at that time.
- And little by little, drips by drips,
- we found out more and more what happened.
- But I didn't know anything about my family, where they are,
- if they are alive or not until I came to the United States.
- When I came to the United States, I had friends of mine
- that I left that came out alive from the Partisans
- and from the woods.
- And I heard right away that my wife with her family
- is alive, which was--
- we are distant cousins.
- And I knew all the kids since they were babies.
- And my wife is 13 years old-- younger than I am.
- And I knew her as a little child.
- But she had a family, aunts and cousins.
- And when I came in touch with them,
- then they told me that they are alive.
- And told me that most of the people are dead.
- And then I met some people that were already here,
- some friends of mine who were the Partisans
- and came out alive.
- And they told me the story what happened in our hometown.
- That they took out all the people in 1942,
- in the fall of 1942.
- First, they put them in a ghetto and later, they
- took them out three kilometers beyond the city.
- And they shot them all and put them into graves,
- into mass graves, and covered them.
- And none of my family came out alive except one
- brother of mine, who ran away into the woods.
- But the Russian Partisans killed him.
- Him with another 16 boys just finished the middle school.
- 17, 16, 17.
- Beautiful people that I knew them as children.
- And the Russians came, the Russian Partisans
- came to the place where they were in the woods,
- and they told them that they are going to take them
- in into the Partisans.
- But they have to come two by two, two people at a time,
- because otherwise the Germans might have spies and see
- if many people are going.
- And when they took them away, about a kilometer
- from their hiding place, they killed them,
- killed them with knives.
- And in this way, they killed 16 young boys and girls.
- Except one was left for dead.
- But he was just wounded.
- And he came back to the Jewish people, the Jewish Partisans
- and people who were hiding in the woods,
- and told them the story.
- Of course, the non--
- the Jewish people were hiding from the Partisans, also.
- So they had they were in double jeopardy.
- So that's how I found out what happened.
- OK.
- Can you condense it all down and just tell me,
- I was in Shanghai when I found out about the Holocaust.
- It came in.
- But it wasn't until I got to the United States
- that I found out that my mother, and father--
- And my brother.
- --and brother were killed.
- That's all I want.
- And all my extended family.
- And many of my extended family, OK.
- All of them.
- None was left.
- Well, your brother and sister are in Israel.
- Well, but they were in Israel since 1935.
- Right.
- But we don't know that.
- We don't know that.
- But you do it.
- Oh, OK.
- But very short.
- In Shanghai, I found out in generality what happened there.
- I didn't have any details and no newspaper.
- And then--
- Sorry, sorry.
- You have to start, in Shanghai, you
- found out about the Holocaust.
- We have to know what you're talking about.
- In Shanghai after the war was finished,
- I found out about the Holocaust.
- But I didn't have any details because it
- was hard to get by any information more than
- in general.
- When I came in '47 to New York, then I
- found out actually what happened, all the details.
- And I found out from eyewitnesses
- and my whole family were killed, except for one brother that
- ran away into the woods with many other Jewish young people.
- And he was later killed by the Russian Partisans.
- I had left for my family in Israel.
- I had a brother and a sister, which left before the war.
- And this is all my family that was left.
- And all, about 50 people of my family, were all killed.
- Great, great.
- What role do you think your youth, or your luck,
- or your willingness to take risks played in your survival?
- In your story, your whole story.
- Wait for John to finish, please.
- It was all luck, except a little initiative, and a little drive
- to--
- Again, you have to tell me what you're talking about.
- So you could say, your survival or your being a refugee
- was all luck.
- The way I left my hometown and my survival was all luck.
- Maybe a small part was initiative
- because I was willing to take risk and do
- everything I can to survive.
- And that's how it happened the that I am still alive today.
- Of course, on the way, there was many risks.
- Even in Shanghai, I took risks which was a stupid risk,
- but I did take them.
- And all in all, somehow, 90% was luck.
- Because they most clever, the most intelligent,
- the most learned, and the strongest people died.
- And some of the weaker people came out alive.
- So I attribute it mostly to luck,
- except for a little initiative.
- What role do you think that you were young played in it?
- A very big role.
- When you're young, you are liable to take many risks.
- You see, I had an episode in China, if you want to hear it.
- When the war was finished, we started
- to deal in American goods, mostly.
- And we had some news from China, from Tianxin and Harbin
- and Peking that in Tianxin, for an American dollar,
- you can get a five Chinese yen.
- But in Shanghai, you can get four American dollars
- thirty yen.
- So we went.
- Again, we pooled all our resources,
- myself and another three friends.
- We sold our dollars, whatever we have.
- I had, I believe, $400.
- And altogether, we had $1,000.
- We went to Shanghai--
- to Tianxin by train to change the dollars
- and come back five for one, let's say six for one
- and be able for 400 to buy 2000 dollars in Shanghai.
- So we went by train.
- By overnighter, came to Nanking and stayed overnight there.
- From Nanking, we started to go closer to Tianxin.
- But on the way, the communists broke up
- the lines, the railroad lines.
- What they did is they took a couple of villages
- and pulled away all the ties, the railroad ties.
- And you couldn't go anymore.
- But there was one where you could
- go by foot for, let's say, 10 kilometers
- and catch another train.
- Well, they couldn't take all the railroad ties away.
- So from there, we went to the next station.
- But on the way, the communists caught us.
- And they didn't know what to do with us,
- so they took us to their headquarters.
- We were four, myself and my friends,
- plus about seven Russians.
- And they brought us to their headquarters.
- This is too long, sorry.
- Too long.
- I want to just skip around and ask [INAUDIBLE]..
- OK, tell me what--
- OK, are we rolling?
- Yes we are.
- OK, when you were in Moscow did you
- go to the opera or the ballet?
- Yes, the first night I came to Moscow.
- The first night I came to Moscow the Russian Intourist gave us
- tickets to the Moscow opera.
- And at that time they put Carmen was going.
- And I came there but we were so tired and Carmen was beautiful
- and the music was beautiful, but we fell asleep.
- We were tired from being on the train all day.
- So we were so tired that we fell asleep.
- Till this day, I regretted that I couldn't see all of Carmen
- there.
- It was the most beautiful opera I ever saw my life.
- OK, now coming to Japan and stuff
- were you able to keep in touch with your parents
- and how did you keep in touch?
- In Japan I have two postcards from my father in Lithuania
- from--
- Start--
- While being in Lithuania--
- No, while in Japan.
- Japan.
- While in Japan I got one postcard.
- That was the last postcard that I had from my hometown that
- they heard that I am going to the United States and they are
- very happy for me and they hope that I'll--
- and it was written in Russian because that
- was Russia at that time and the sender
- was always looking for foreign languages
- that they would be able to either destroy it or send.
- But in Russian the postcard they let it through.
- They didn't think of it much.
- Did they receive anything from you while you were in Japan?
- No, from Japan they--
- I don't believe it.
- I don't know if they did get it because I
- was writing every time.
- But I have no idea if they got to-- done that.
- Let see.
- Could you tell me again why you were so
- motivated to get out of Russia?
- As I told you, I was born into--
- You can't say [INAUDIBLE]
- Sorry.
- And don't go all the way back.
- Just say because you hated the Russians or--
- Because I was a Zionist.
- OK, no.
- You wanted to get out of Russia or you
- wanted to get out from under Russian rule.
- All my life I was a Zionist and my dream
- was to go to Israel, at that time was Palestine.
- Once the Russian occupied our country I knew in time
- we couldn't get out from them because we
- knew what's going on there.
- And in a way we were very well informed
- and I knew that after a while they'll
- close all the avenues of escape.
- You couldn't go out.
- So I look for ways to get out of Russia out from under the--
- Not of Russia but from under the communist regime.
- And the only way was open was Vilnius.
- And Vilnius never supposed to be given back
- to the Lithuanians which the Lithuanians made it later
- for their capital city.
- Why do you think it's important for you to tell this story?
- Why.
- You see, as a matter of fact, I should have written down
- everything but I didn't, that the closest way
- to leave some legacy for my grandchildren
- and for future generations.
- If I can contribute a little bit,
- if everybody could contribute just one letter that
- would leave some history that people
- wouldn't come later and say, no, nothing happened.
- It was just a figment of your imagination, or something.
- I've never been a refugee.
- I've never had to run from anything.
- I've never had to--
- Lucky you.
- Yes, very lucky.
- What is it like?
- Do you live day to day or do you make big plans
- or is it full of risk or--
- what's it like to be a refugee?
- To be a refugee is like any normal people.
- They live from day to day mostly except that they
- have their problems where to go and live permanently
- without any threat for your life or for your family or for--
- So most of the day so you are trying to make a living,
- you're trying to injure yourself because you are young.
- At this age all you think is of having
- enough to eat and shelter and enjoy yourself.
- But the longer you're looking of ways
- to get out to get back whatever you can put your roots in.
- My idea was Israel.
- I wasn't thinking of the United States
- or of any other country in the world.
- Only love Israel.
- But the trouble was hard to get there.
- So you start to make plans and you tried all the avenues.
- But you weren't always successful in it.
- What was your lowest point during this period
- and what was your highest point?
- The lowest point to my period was on the way from Lithuania
- to Vladivostok to get a visa, a Japanese visa because if I
- don't get it I go to Siberia.
- One country was open for me, that's Siberia.
- The second lowest time was in Shanghai
- after the American bombardment of Shanghai, which was in 1945
- I believe.
- The rumors came to us that the Japanese want to put us
- on leaky ships and take us out to the Yellow Sea and sink us,
- let the ship sink or to leave us on Ban Islands which
- [? a rock?] only birds used to stop there,
- and let us die there.
- We were making plans to run away into the interior of China
- to Chiang Kai-Shek.
- But it was a dream only because among the Chinese
- you stuck out like a sore thumb.
- But we tried to do whatever we could.
- We were talking hard where to run and how run and--
- but things got the world.
- The America started to bombard, and all of a sudden
- we had about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
- And the rumours were dead.
- What were some of your high points in this journey
- overall picture of going from Poland all the way to the US?
- What was some of the--
- The high points when the war was finished.
- Sorry, I still talking.
- The high points of my being a refugee
- was the minute we heard that the war was finished.
- We didn't know about the Holocaust.
- There rumors were only coming through the Russian news which
- we didn't trust and believe.
- And then that was for us terrible,
- and our feeling was very bad about it.
- But we didn't have the details.
- We didn't know what to believe and what not to believe.
- Our minds couldn't comprehend it.
- So we said maybe it's just rumours.
- We still hope maybe it's not true.
- How could it be a whole population to be annihilated?
- Do you ever wonder why you made it and others didn't?
- Luck.
- Most of it anyway is luck.
- Your thinking, a lot of people were
- thinking about it the same way, but you had also
- to have a little initiative.
- But I ascribe it mostly to luck.
- Initiative helps.
- If you don't do anything, you don't get anything.
- But with all this you have to be lucky.
- And do you have any questions or topics that I haven't touched?
- I can tell you an episode.
- Excuse me, I--
- I want to tell you one episode in Shanghai.
- If you want you can record it or not.
- You want to hear it first and then--
- while being in Shanghai, in Japan there
- was a Japanese consulate still.
- He constantly was working from some neutral country.
- And they were recruiting young people
- in the Polish army which were in London at that time.
- And they recruited young people to send them to Canada
- to train for the Polish army.
- So of course in order to get out of Japan not to go to Shanghai
- I will go in the army gladly.
- So we went to register.
- When I came to register there was a Jewish fellow
- which is the secretary or the secretary of the consulate who
- was sent by London.
- And he was a Jewish fellow who was in the lumber business,
- the same as my father when said the name.
- And the [INAUDIBLE] says, I knew a guy by the name of Goldberg.
- We had some business dealings with him.
- And he took down my--
- And I told him, that's my father.
- Took down all the details and says, wait, we'll let you know.
- That was in Tokyo we went.
- And we came especially overnight by train to Tokyo from Kobe.
- I went back to Kobe and I waited,
- and of course we went there for a day to the seashore to swim
- and there was nothing else to do.
- When I came in the evening I came to the Jewish committee.
- I take a look.
- My name is on the list, but the train left an hour ago.
- So what did I do?
- I went next day I went to Tokyo and I came in,
- and the fellow that I knew my father looked at me
- and says, Goldberg, what are you doing here?
- The ship left today, this morning.
- So I say, I came late in the evening--
- I mean, late in the day and I saw the list,
- but the time was left already.
- So I didn't know.
- He says, your name is approved.
- And looks in the list.
- He says, but you are on the ship.
- You are on the steamship now.
- He says, no, it couldn't be.
- What came out is that another guy with the same name as mine
- and the same age saw the name and he went
- and that was meant for me.
- So he says, now you have to wait for the next boat, which
- of course never came because it was odd in November.
- And the American ship started to call on Japanese ports.
- So that guy went to Canada and he
- had a hard time in the army because of the anti-Semitism
- in the army.
- And I had a good life in Shanghai comparatively
- to everybody.
- We had a nice life in Shanghai.
- So yeah.
- Yeah, do you have any questions or--
- I didn't go into the army.
- It was a very anti-Semitic army which they gave you
- the hardest time possible.
- And I lived a good life in Shanghai.
- How did you feel--
- when you were in Vladivostok and you didn't have a--
- A visa.
- A visa to Shanghai or to Japan--
- To Japan yeah.
- How did you have faith, how did you know that you
- were going to get through?
- I didn't.
- I did my best that I could.
- As I told you, if that wouldn't go through then
- we'd go to Siberia.
- I knew it.
- And Siberia would have been better than staying in Vilnius?
- Of course, the people in Siberia, a lot of them
- came out alive.
- Were you surprised that your resourcefulness?
- I mean--
- No.
- You see, my father was a merchant
- and my grandfather was a merchant,
- though he lived in a village, my grandfather.
- So we had initiative always.
- We always looked to better our lives.
- So I wasn't surprised.
- But the luck held out for me.
- You see, every little thing could have gone wrong.
- They could have refused, the Russians,
- to let me out because I have to give them a history
- my life, a cockamamie story how did I
- wind up in Warsaw to get a temporary passport and this
- and that.
- So everything was--
- I could have said right away it's a falsified paper.
- The seal was new, everything.
- So he took this finger if it will come off or not.
- But it didn't come off.
- They had good ink there.
- Why do you think that guard let you through?
- He might have been Jewish.
- He might have been a liberal.
- He might have hated the Russian government.
- You see, there was a lot of things like this
- because there was also a lot of Jewish in the army officers,
- Jewish officer.
- So sometimes he knew the truth from them
- what's going on in Russia.
- When I came to the hotel in Chelyushkin
- after a beautiful dinner they gave us tea with lemon.
- But what did they do?
- They give us one piece of sugar [INAUDIBLE] cubes of sugar.
- You need three.
- For big glass of tea you need at least three.
- So used to call them [INAUDIBLE] we need some sugar.
- So he used to bring us.
- I need another two pieces of sugar.
- He brought us.
- And then said, nobody should here.
- He says, we drink three glasses of tea with one piece of sugar,
- not three pieces with one.
- And he was a Jewish fellow and knew right away.
- We're still shooting.
- Let's see.
- Was your trip on the train extremely stressful?
- I mean, you're hiding from the NKVD the whole time.
- But wasn't stressful because in every car
- we had people that was looking out for them.
- When they saw them coming to this car
- right away they told us where he is
- and we waited until the last minute, then
- we went into the next and hid in that one of the bathrooms.
- But there was an episode which I have to tell you,
- and if you put it on or not I don't know.
- When we came to have Khabarovsk, which
- is the Baikal, the beginning of Siberia.
- It was 30 below 0, very cold but the sun was shining.
- When we stopped there he said we have an hour.
- We came go off the train to the station.
- And there is rest and with food.
- So of course, we have pretty good food
- on the train but fresh food and everything if you go down.
- We came down.
- There was table served with the meat and borscht and bread,
- white bread and dark bread.
- And in Russia it looked like you fell into paradise.
- So we sat down and then we ate.
- And then at the door was standing militiamen.
- And a big guy comes in, about 30 years old maybe 6
- foot 3, tall, beautiful.
- And he wants to come in.
- So he said, where are you going, the policeman asked.
- Says, I want to eat lunch.
- Dinner they call it there.
- So he says, no you cannot now.
- Let the foreigners finish eating and then you'll
- be able to go in.
- So he says, I know you what you are doing.
- After they leave [INAUDIBLE] you have to clean up
- and we'll never get anything to eat.
- So another two guys came over, took him under the arm,
- and took him out from there.
- This is what Russia was at that time.
- A second episode, we went through Siberia to Birobidzhan.
- Birobidzhan was supposed to be a Jewish autonomous region.
- And we stopped at the station called
- Biro, which was part of it.
- We came down to the station.
- We see there's a kiosk or a newspaper stand
- and a fellow standing there, and we knew right away
- that he's Jewish.
- And we started to look at the books.
- There was two scroungy books and a couple scroungy magazines
- and a newspaper by the name of Emmis
- which is Pravda in Yiddish.
- And he looks at us, says, You are Jewish?
- Yes.
- Where are you going?
- We say, we are going to America.
- All we knew is America.
- He looks at us and smiles he says, you are going to Siberia.
- You are not going to America.
- Nobody comes out of Russia.
- This is the episode if you want to include it.
- No, that's good.
- Good.
- OK, I think that's it.
- [INAUDIBLE]
- That's it.
- That's right.
- That's what I have.
- We need to roll for about 20 seconds
- of just silence of the room.
- Shall I go out?
- No, no please join us.
- Just sit there and--
- [INAUDIBLE] rolling.
- Room tone.
- End room tone.
- Thank you.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Motl Goldberg
- Date
-
interview:
1999 August 18
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
4 videocassettes (Betacam SP) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Goldberg, Motl.
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- Firstlight Pictures, a film production company contractor for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, conducted the interview with Motl Goldberg on August 18, 1999 in preparation for the exhibition, "Flight & Rescue." The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the tapes of the interview from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Exhibitions Division in August, 1999
- Funding Note
- The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:57:03
- This page:
- http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn508249
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Also in Oral history interviews of the Flight and Rescue collection
Contains oral history interviews with twenty Holocaust survivors and witnesses recorded in preparation for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's exhibition, "Flight and Rescue," which opened May 3, 2000. The interviewees discuss their experiences of their journey from Lithuania to Shanghai, China, via Japan
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