Oral history interview with Laurie Klaper Schiff

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1990.495.23 | RG Number: RG-50.061.0023

: OK.
: The first thing I'd like to know is what is your full name,
: what date you were you born, and where did you live?
: My name was Laurie Klaper--
: K-L-A-P-E-R. I lived in Vienna, Stumpergasse 22, apartment 20.
: And that is Austria.
: When were you born?
: I was born September 19, 1921.
: What is your earliest memory of Hitler?
: My earliest memory of Hitler is 1932.
: And what was happening?
: Hitler was coming to power in Germany.
: And I heard everybody talking about it
: in my family and our friends.
: What kinds of things were they saying?
: Well, they didn't really believe that he would come to power.
: But he certainly was something to be reckoned with.
: Had anybody read Mein Kampf?
: Not that I know of.
: Did anybody-- was he beginning his antisemitic propaganda
: at that point?
: Yes.
: And nobody believed that it would really--
: No, people didn't think that he would legally
: be able to come to power.
: Was anybody scared yet at that point?
: I don't really remember.
: I was only in my early teens--
: 11.
: 11?
: 1932, yeah.
: 11 years old, yes.
: What kinds of sources did you have for news?
: I mean, did you read it in the newspapers?
: Were they on the shortwave?
: Personally, I only remember hearing people
: talk, the adults talk about it.
: Had anything begun yet in Austria
: to take away the Jews' civil rights at that point?
: Yes.
: We've had a government that was very right wing.
: And it was run by fascists.
: But it was not the Nazi Party.
: OK.
: Exactly-- and we know from history
: what was going on in Germany at that--
: over the next couple of years, and the Nuremberg laws, and all
: that.
: What was going on in Austria as--
: between 1932, which is your first memory, and 1938,
: which is the Anschluss?
: Do you want to tell me more about things
: that you can remember?
: You've told me about going to the cemeteries
: and things like that.
: Tell me some things that you remember about your childhood
: or your adolescence.
: Well, I guess I had a childhood or adolescence
: like most other children in my circumstances and at that time.
: I went to school.
: I had my friends.
: Was there any anti-Jewish sentiment.
: Always.
: In what ways did this manifest itself?
: There was a quota at the university.
: What about for you directly in your adolescence?
: Well, I went to a high school-- junior high school
: and high school, where there were
: only about 15 Jewish children in the whole school.
: And we always felt like outsiders.
: Was there any kind of legalized antisemitic actions against you
: in school, things that teachers would look the other way?
: No, no, no.
: What about civil laws--
: No.
: --as 1938 came along?
: There were no Nuremberg laws--
: No.
: --type things in Austria?
: No, no, no.
: So that it was mostly just a social stigma?
: Right.
: It wasn't really a legal stigma.
: No, right.
: All right.
: Tell me what continued to change in your life as Hitler began--
: as he came to power and as people
: began to realize that maybe this crazy man.
: Well, by that time, I was 17 years old.
: And I was in my last year in high school.
: Well, what happened between the time you were 11
: and the time you were 17, as he was coming to power in Germany?
: It didn't affect us in Austria, really.
: You really didn't believe it would happen?
: Well, nobody believed that he would take over Austria.
: I mean--
: Didn't he say he would?
: I really don't remember.
: I really don't remember.
: But I do remember there was a political crisis in 1930--
: the end of 1937 or '38.
: We had a Christian Democratic Party
: in power, which was semi-fascist and antisemitic.
: But it was still better than what happened to Germany.
: And there was-- and Hitler was in the process of taking
: over the Austrian government.
: And so all of a sudden, all the Jews
: were for that particular chancellor
: that they couldn't tolerate before.
: But it was better than Hitler.
: So all the Jews were now all out for him.
: But it really didn't help.
: It didn't make any difference in the outcome of the events.
: All right.
: So that your next clearest memory is the Anschluss?
: Right.
: All right.
: You want to tell me about-- tell me about before the Anschluss,
: like four weeks before the Anschluss.
: Anschluss was in October.
: No, it was in March.
: It was in March, excuse me.
: It was in March, 1945--
: 1938.
: About four weeks before the Anschluss,
: it was pretty clear that Hitler was going to take over.
: And no matter what the people did to support the government,
: it just made no difference, really.
: Were there Nazis in Austria at this point?
: Yes.
: Were there Brownshirts walking around?
: No, no.
: But there were Nazi members, which was illegal at the time,
: but they were members of the Nazi Party
: so that when Hitler came in, he had his party members already
: waiting for him.
: But how did you feel that last four weeks?
: Very confused, and scared, and just genuinely confused,
: I would say.
: All right.
: You want to tell me about--
: did anybody get out?
: Now, we know that you didn't get out, although you had a chance.
: You mean before he came?
: Yeah.
: Did anybody get out?
: Not that I know of.
: Did anybody leave?
: Nobody I know of.
: All right.
: Do you want to tell me about the Anschluss happening?
: Well, Hitler marched into Austria on March 15--
: 14, I think, 1938.
: Where did he march into?
: Did he march into Vienna?
: No, he-- into Vienna--
: it took two or three days until--
: he personally didn't come, his troop--
: his German Army.
: And from that moment on, I was not--
: everything was closed.
: The schools were closed.
: The businesses were closed.
: It was like--
: Everybody's schools--
: Everybody's.
: --not just the Jews?
: No, everybody's schools.
: Everything was closed for I don't remember how long,
: but at least a week or 10 days.
: And then when everything opened up again and went back
: to normal, I was in my last year in high school.
: I only had a couple more months to finish the year.
: I was not allowed to go back.
: My father immediately lost his job.
: What did he do?
: He worked in a department store, which
: was owned by a Jewish family.
: And it was immediately taken over by the Nazis,
: by the Germans.
: And all the Jewish employees were
: fired without any compensation.
: And that is about all I can remember other
: than we were very scared and didn't know what to do
: or where to turn.
: Now, there were demonstrations on the streets.
: The Nazis were marching.
: And the population was hysterical with joy.
: The Austrian population was hysterical with joy.
: And even though they said afterwards
: that they were occupied against their will, it is not true.
: It definitely was not the case.
: They were overjoyed to welcome him and his troops.
: All right.
: How did you live?
: I mean, what did you do?
: How did you eat?
: Where did you get the money to do all this, to pay the bills?
: Well, of course, everybody had a few shillings
: saved up here and there.
: And so there still were Jewish stores where we could shop.
: And that went on for a few months.
: There are a lot of things that I've forgotten at this point,
: really.
: I can't remember everything.
: But then it came.
: They came out with rules that Jews couldn't-- were not
: allowed to buy fresh vegetables and fresh fruit.
: And let me see.
: I'm trying to think what else.
: And that was for the first few months.
: That was from March '38 until about November '39,
: we sort of struggled through.
: About a year and a half through this?
: Yeah.
: But during that time, a lot of people left.
: Anybody who had relatives overseas
: or in any other country in Europe left.
: Now, you--
: And a lot of people who were wealthy
: just took their jewelry, and their money,
: and their pocketbooks, and left.
: But then a lot of other people who didn't have anybody--
: any families in other countries stayed
: because there's nowhere to go.
: All right.
: Now, you've told me you had a chance to go to Yugoslavia.
: No, to Scotland.
: I thought it was Yugoslavia.
: No.
: Do you want to tell me about that, where the visa came from?
: Well, somebody we knew--
: even that is not too clear in my memory anymore.
: We knew somebody that had a relative or a friend
: in Scotland.
: And everybody was trying to get their children out first.
: My brother had left in 1938.
: He went to Switzerland.
: Did he leave because of--
: Because of--
: --Hitler?
: --yes, because they were always looking for young men.
: I didn't know that.
: And so I had an opportunity to go to Scotland.
: And I got the visa after several months.
: And then I didn't want to go because I didn't
: want to go without my family.
: So that was the end of that plan.
: Who used the visa?
: Do you know?
: As far as I know--
: I have no idea.
: I have no idea.
: And there was an aborted chance that you
: could have gotten out to Czechoslovakia
: with your family?
: Or your brother was going to get you out?
: No, my brother was going to get us out to Switzerland.
: But that didn't come through either.
: So we all stayed.
: By the way, I made a mistake.
: It was till November '39 that we struggled to-- not--
: November '38, from March '38 to November '38.
: So it almost-- it was 10 months or nine months.
: Yes.
: OK.
: All right.
: At that point, Hitler was letting us all know
: or letting everybody else know what he was going to do.
: I mean, he never made a secret of any of his plans.
: He said, I'm going into Poland.
: And he went.
: And nobody believed that he did it.
: Well, before that--
: Do you want to tell me about the kinds of things he was saying
: and people's reactions to it?
: Well, of course, everybody knows what he was saying.
: And he was saying everything that was in his book.
: And nobody believed it.
: But in 1938, when he marched into Austria, by that time,
: he had been in power for five years in Germany.
: And we rationalized that he has been there for five years.
: And there were still Jewish stores, and Jewish department
: stores, and Jews in the professions.
: And so he can't be all that bad.
: And maybe we'll have to change our way of life drastically.
: But somehow, it won't be so bad.
: And we'll be able to live through it.
: And we figured, he can't last forever because the world won't
: let him, which was our mistake.
: Because the world did let him.
: OK.
: Then when the war broke out in 1939, of course,
: all the doors were closed for us.
: And there was no place for us to go.
: All right.
: So at this point, people were making do,
: and leaving, and convincing themselves
: that it wouldn't happen and all that kind of stuff.
: But in the meantime, they had started already
: to ship people off.
: That was going to be my next question.
: Weren't the concentration camps already begun at that point?
: Oh, definitely.
: When did they begin?
: I imagine they began in 1933.
: I imagine they began.
: And did anybody know about them, anything at all about them?
: Well, I don't really remember because I
: was a child at the time.
: And I really didn't pay that much attention to it.
: And by the time he came to Austria when
: I was 17 years old already, he was already
: an established fact.
: What were you hearing about these camps?
: That they were work camps.
: And you believed it?
: And nobody ever came back?
: Right.
: But they weren't having any selections
: or transports yet in your neighborhood?
: No.
: I'm not very sure of my dates at this point.
: But after the war started, in 1940 or--
: must have been 1940, we had to leave our apartment
: and everything in it--
: our furniture, everything.
: And we had to move to another part of the city
: that they tried to make into a ghetto,
: except that they didn't close it off like they did in Warsaw.
: But all the Jews had to move into that particular section
: of the city.
: All right, let's-- wait, let's go back for a minute.
: Now, you said that--
: I'm trying to keep this as chronological as possible.
: I know it's going to be difficult.
: You said that you lived a fairly normal, but different life
: till November of 1938.
: Right.
: All right, now, you've just skipped a year.
: What happened in that year?
: The war broke out in September of '39.
: Well, I didn't go back--
: So what happened?
: Right.
: Now, I couldn't go back to school.
: And since I had to do something, I
: found out that there was a-- we had
: a very big hospital, Jewish hospital, the Rothschild
: Hospital in Vienna.
: And in 19-- it was either at the end of '38 or the beginning
: of '39, they had to let all the Jewish nurses--
: the Gentile nurses and doctors go.
: They weren't allowed to employ any non-Jewish doctors
: and nurses.
: So they were looking for personnel, Jewish personnel.
: Through the Jewish community, I found out
: they were looking for nurses.
: And I went there and applied for the job.
: And I did get a job.
: It was-- I wasn't being paid.
: I was being trained somewhat.
: But at least it gave me something to do.
: Did you get any kind of food stamps or--
: Yes, we all had food stamps, ration cards.
: Was there some kind of remuneration from this work?
: No, none whatsoever.
: All right.
: But you all had ration cards.
: Yes.
: Who distributed them?
: What was the organization of the Jewish community like?
: Well, it was like any other Jewish community.
: And like most of the Jewish communities in Europe,
: the men who were in charge had to cooperate
: with the German authorities.
: All right.
: What happened once the war broke out in Poland?
: What happened once he marched in--
: We still went along.
: --once he marched into Poland.
: Well, we still went along the same way.
: And we had to leave our apartment.
: We moved-- as I said, we moved into the part of the city
: where all the Jews had to live.
: And there were four families in one big apartment.
: Each family had one room.
: And everybody shared the kitchen.
: And by that time, I'd been working at the Jewish hospital
: already.
: And by that time, also, they had the transports
: to the east were going fairly regularly.
: All right.
: Let's go back to the ghetto.
: Can you give me anything-- can you tell me anything
: about how it was organized?
: It wasn't really a ghetto.
: So it wasn't organized like Warsaw?
: No.
: No.
: Not with schools and administrators?
: No, no, no, nothing.
: There was no Jewish schools.
: How many people lived there?
: Do you know?
: And the size of it?
: I really don't know.
: OK.
: What kind of lifestyle did people have?
: I mean, not everybody was working.
: It was very crowded.
: Not everybody was working in a hospital.
: No, it was very crowded.
: As a matter of fact, because of my job in the hospital,
: we were semi-protected from transports at the time.
: But it was very crowded.
: And the food was very--
: we didn't have too much food.
: But we didn't starve.
: And we just waited for-- lived from day to day.
: And I remember, every morning when I would leave the house,
: I would check with some of my friends,
: ring the doorbell to see if they were still there
: or if they had been picked up during the night.
: Did it ever occur to you that you'd come home
: and your parents would be gone?
: Yes, yes.
: Did that happen?
: No.
: To other people?
: No, not that I can recall.
: So it was still--
: you still managed to find some way
: to live a kind of a normal life?
: sort of.
: We had a lot of adjusting to do.
: I'm sure.
: I'm sure.
: OK, now, you said that by 1939, the transports to the east
: were going full force.
: Tell me about that.
: Well, they weren't going full force.
: Now, for instance, one day, I remember, in the hospital,
: we had to put all the old people that were patients--
: get them ready for the transport.
: Now, everybody knows now that they never
: got there, of course.
: But at the time, we did.
: Where did you think you were sending them?
: We knew we were sending them to the east.
: But we didn't know about the death camps or the gassings
: in cars or whatever-- none of those things.
: What did-- where did you think that they were going?
: We knew they were going to Poland.
: What did you think they were going for?
: In a ghetto, that they wanted all the Jews in one place.
: And then, of course, we had many, many suicides
: in the hospital.
: A lot of people committed suicide.
: Was it old people or young people?
: No, no, not really-- not young people so much--
: middle aged and older people.
: A lot of them succeeded.
: And some of them didn't.
: Can you tell me what these transports looked like?
: And how disruptive was it to the neighborhood?
: I mean, did they herd people through the streets?
: How did they do it?
: I can only tell you about the transport
: I was on when they finally ran out of people.
: And they had to take those that had been protected until then
: because of their jobs.
: You never saw any before yours?
: No.
: OK.
: Tell me about yours.
: Because they didn't herd them through the streets in my city.
: It was different in every place, I imagine.
: First, we had to go to a building, which
: used to be an old folks' home before the war.
: And from there, we were transported on trucks
: to the railroad station.
: And from there, we went to-- first
: to Theresienstadt, which was in Czechoslovakia.
: Do you know the date you were picked up?
: Yes.
: It was in September 1942.
: And on my birthday, which is the 19th of September,
: I was in that particular building
: where they assembled everybody for the transport.
: And that's the day you went?
: No, that's not the day I went.
: But I was in that particular building.
: I went a few days after that.
: And right after your 21st birthday?
: Right.
: All right, can you tell me anything
: about the transport-- the number of cars, what it was like,
: how many people in a room, how you were treated?
: In Theresienstadt?
: On the way.
: I have no recollections of the transport to Theresienstadt.
: I don't even remember how long it took.
: The only thing I do remember, when we got to Theresienstadt,
: which was a small town, a garrison, really,
: before the war.
: And we were given rooms in a building which
: was an apartment building.
: And all we had were the bare floors.
: There were no beds, no furniture.
: And we just had the few things that we brought with us,
: whatever we could carry, which, of course, wasn't very much.
: You can't even remember how many people were in a car,
: or whether you stood up all the way,
: or whether there were seats--
: Not to Theresienstadt.
: I don't--
: --or bathroom breaks, or anything?
: I don't remember anything about the trip to Theresienstadt.
: OK.
: So you got there.
: And you got put in this big apartment building.
: Right.
: And it's before you got put into the camp?
: And that was a ghetto.
: Theresienstadt was a ghetto, which had-- by that time,
: by the time we came-- already walls erected around the town.
: And there was a railroad crossing.
: And they had wooden barriers erected there.
: And they were patrolled by policemen
: so you couldn't get out.
: And once you were in there, that was it.
: You couldn't get out.
: Let me go back for a minute.
: Did you know where you were going?
: Did they tell you?
: Yes.
: We knew that we were going to Theresienstadt.
: And you knew it was a ghetto?
: Of course, that wasn't--
: it didn't have to be necessarily Theresienstadt.
: But that's what we were told.
: And it turned out to be true.
: OK.
: All right.
: Do you want to tell me what your life was like--
: what went on at that point?
: Well, there it was like in a ghetto.
: We had our Jewish--
: Was your family with you?
: Yes, my mother and my father.
: And the men-- first, we were all together.
: Then they separated the men in one part
: of the building and the women in another part of the building,
: I suppose, to give us a little more privacy.
: And there was a Jewish--
: the Judenrat.
: And they did all the talking for us.
: And they dealt with the German authorities.
: How did you deal with them?
: Not very much.
: Did you all get along?
: What was their reaction?
: I never saw them.
: What was their attitude?
: Did they do a great deal of--
: We had no idea what their--
: --kowtowing?
: I imagine so, but we had no idea what their attitude was.
: We never saw them.
: We never talked to them.
: And they were--
: I don't know how many people were at Theresienstadt
: by this point.
: There were thousands, thousands.
: And the sanitary facilities were very poor.
: After a short while, a typhoid fever broke out.
: And with no medication and no sanitary facilities, of course,
: it spread.
: And if you didn't die from hunger,
: you died from typhoid, from typhoid fever.
: Had you had your hair cut off at this point?
: No, not in Theresienstadt.
: You still--
: We had our own clothing.
: And we did have to wear the yellow star, of course.
: But we didn't have our hair cut, no.
: How did you manage to get through the typhus?
: Personally, my family and I were very lucky.
: We didn't get it, although there were people right in our room
: laying next to us on the floor who did have it.
: And some died.
: And some came through.
: But we just were lucky.
: Did you get any other diseases?
: No, no.
: The things that we've read about.
: All right.
: How long were you there?
: I was there from 1942, September 1942 to May 1944.
: A little over a year and a half.
: And during that time, I worked in a laundry, which
: was outside of the ghetto.
: And we were marched every morning under the guard
: and brought back in the evening with the guard.
: And you were doing Gentiles' laundry, Nazi laundry.
: Oh, yes Yes.
: I don't know whose laundry we did, but it wasn't ours.
: OK.
: What did you eat?
: We had rations we were given.
: But what did you eat?
: A lot of potatoes and some bread.
: We had some vegetables.
: And then we got our main meals at kitchens
: where you went there for your meal and took it home.
: Was there any-- did you get any information at this point?
: I mean, was-- did anybody have a short wave?
: No.
: You had no idea what was going on in the world?
: No.
: Absolutely none?
: None, except that some people had connections
: with the outside world.
: They had friends or fiances, like a friend of mine
: was engaged to a non-Jewish man.
: And a few letters did come through.
: Once in a while, we got a food parcel
: from some non-Jewish friends.
: I would also guess that as new people came,
: they brought more current information with them.
: Right.
: What kinds of things did you hear?
: Well, we heard that the war wasn't
: going too good for the Germans at that point.
: But it was still so far away from us,
: it really didn't make too much difference
: for the immediate future because they were shipping people
: out as fast from Theresienstadt as they
: came into Theresienstadt.
: But we were always hoping.
: And you didn't get any-- did you get any information about what
: was going on in the concentration camps
: at that point?
: Yes, we heard rumors.
: What did you hear?
: That the work camps weren't work camps at all and that people
: were shot.
: We didn't know anything about the gas.
: But we did hear that people were shot
: and did not get to the work camps.
: Or there were no war camps.
: Did you know about the ovens?
: No.
: So you didn't hear anything about any of that?
: Uh-uh.
: Did you hear about Warsaw?
: About the uprising?
: No.
: Oh, let's go back for a minute-- what happened--
: I completely forgot to ask.
: What happened to you during Kristallnacht?
: As it happened, that day, I went to visit
: a lady we knew who was an older woman in her 70s.
: And she lived quite far away, in another part of the city.
: And I had gone there in the morning.
: I was going to spend the day with her.
: And she lived in the suburbs, really.
: When we had to go to the bathroom,
: we had to go all together or none at all--
: or not at all.
: And the Blockalteste who was in charge of the--
: us, she had to take us.
: And she was very fast with the rubber--
: yeah, a rubber hose that she used
: to use all the time because we were never fast enough.
: When did you-- is this when you got your number?
: No, I got my number as soon as we got to Auschwitz.
: Do you remember that it hurt?
: No, it didn't hurt.
: It didn't hurt.
: It was just like a tattoo.
: So that's all I can say about Birkenau.
: I remember, there was a young girl there.
: And I don't know what she was.
: She had some kind of a job there because she
: looked cleaner and better-dressed and better
: health than most of them.
: And she came and gave me and my girlfriend a toothbrush
: then a piece of salt. She had been there longer.
: And that's about all I can remember of that day.
: That's the way it was, day in and day out.
: What did you do all day?
: Standing at attention to be counted.
: This was just a form of degrading us,
: taking their hate out on us.
: Was there ever any kind of smuggling
: of food and infighting in the camp
: or anything among the women?
: Not that I know of.
: There was no food that you could fight over.
: You got your bowl of soup and that was it.
: You couldn't get-- you didn't get near a kitchen or anything
: else.
: And you had no information from the outside world at all?
: Oh, no, no, no.
: I mean, that was the lowest, the lowest I've ever been, really.
: Can you tell me anything else, any incidents
: that you can remember?
: I remember the orchestra in Birkenau.
: That's not the same orchestra as the orchestra in Auschwitz?
: No, there was no orchestra in Auschwitz.
: There was an orchestra in Birkenau, which
: is the other side of Auschwitz.
: Auschwitz is sort of a catch-name for the whole place.
: But it was really divided in two parts.
: One was Auschwitz, and one was Birkenau.
: Birkenau was women-only.
: And Auschwitz had partitions for women--
: it was partitioned off--
: parts for women, parts for men.
: There were factories.
: There were the inmates' work.
: There were the Buna factories, there were rubber factories,
: there were ammunition factories nearby where some of the people
: worked.
: But Auschwitz is really a catch-name for the whole area.
: I remember seeing the orchestra go down
: to the gate in the morning and come back up
: in the evening, which was ludicrous in the first place,
: an orchestra in a place like this.
: Do you have any idea why they did it?
: No.
: We never-- in all the years, in all the years,
: we could never figure out why they did what
: at what particular time.
: There was never a system to anything the Nazis did.
: They never followed any plan.
: They could never anticipate anything.
: Because we tried very hard to figure out any kind of system
: that we had.
: But you just couldn't figure it out.
: I know that this is ludicrous, but at any point,
: was there any religious activity?
: No.
: But when I was still in Auschwitz with my family
: and we had the Russian prisoners of war next door to us,
: one of them somehow had a violin with him.
: I don't know how he got it there, but he did have it.
: And he used to play a Hebrew melody.
: Apparently, he was Jewish.
: He used to play a Hebrew melody, which
: is performed during the funeral, during Jewish funerals.
: Every day?
: Very often.
: And they looked very emaciated.
: And many of them looked like they couldn't last another day.
: And they probably didn't last very long.
: All right.
: So you were in Birkenau with your girlfriend?
: Right.
: What happened?
: Well, after we were there for about a month, again,
: we were told, if anybody wants to volunteer
: for a work transport.
: And now, I remember wanting to volunteer for anything there
: because you--
: as I said before, the less visible you were,
: the better off you were.
: We figured that we couldn't survive there very long.
: It was just impossible, it was so filthy and ridden
: with sickness and disease.
: And we figured, either we'll die here shortly
: or we'll die someplace else.
: But maybe-- we did know that they used
: slave labor in their factories.
: So we thought, maybe, it really is for a work transport.
: In any case, we can't lose anything
: because we just couldn't live like that any longer.
: And we did volunteer.
: And there was then a whole train-full of young women that
: had volunteered--
: cattle cars, of course.
: And we could sit down in them.
: We didn't have to stand up.
: And again, we went on transport.
: And that was about the end of June.
: And after riding on the train for a couple of days,
: at that point, they didn't lock the doors on the trains.
: They left them open, I remember.
: Was there any impulse to fall out?
: No, none whatsoever because we knew we were in territory where
: nobody was going to help us.
: Everybody could tell from a mile away that we were prisoners
: from a concentration camp.
: We couldn't mingle with the population.
: So there was no way for us to do anything.
: After a couple of days, the train stopped.
: And we got off at a place which looked like paradise to us.
: It was in the woods.
: It was green.
: It was clean.
: There was a camp there with barracks and straw mattresses.
: But everything was very clean.
: Where was this?
: It was in Upper Silesia.
: Does it have a name?
: Was Gross-Rosen.
: And apparently, there had been people there before.
: Because it had been built by concentration camp inmates.
: I'm sure of that.
: How could you tell?
: All these camps have been built by concentration inmates.
: And that's where we wound up.
: And it turned out to be a labor camp, really.
: And the food was just as bad and just as little
: as any other place.
: But that didn't really bother us too much because by that time,
: we were used to very little food already.
: And if you were young and if you were healthy,
: you had a chance of surviving.
: Now, you told me at one point about what they
: used to do to you on Sundays.
: You said they used to give you a very salty--
: Oh, yeah.
: Sundays was the best meal of the day.
: It was--
: Everywhere?
: No, no, no, in this particular camp, Gross-Rosen.
: It was-- oh, in Auschwitz, we used
: to get sauerkraut soup almost every day.
: But I'm surprised I still like sauerkraut.
: But there, in Gross-Rosen, Sunday
: was the best soup of the day.
: It was made with pork, I suppose,
: some kind of meat and potatoes.
: And it was very thick.
: And it was very good.
: To us, it was good.
: Today, I probably wouldn't eat it.
: But it was so salty that for the rest of the day,
: we would drink water until by evening, we couldn't move,
: we were so waterlogged.
: I really used to look forward to that
: because it was a thick soup instead of thin soup.
: Now, that particular camp was a little better as far
: as the sanitary conditions were concerned.
: We had ovens-- stoves in the rooms.
: They didn't give us any coal or wood to heat.
: But we took care of that ourselves,
: which I'll explain later.
: And we did have places where we could go for a shower
: if we had any soap.
: And if we didn't have soap, we washed without soap.
: So it was a little better in that respect.
: What about clothes?
: Oh, we were still wearing the same rags
: we got in Birkenau and the same shoes, which by that time,
: were threadbare and had holes in the soles.
: And I worked with several different things.
: I worked at putting posts--
: telegraph posts into the ground.
: I worked at putting up fences.
: I worked at filling lorries which is those cars that they
: use for coal--
: filling lorries with rocks and gravel.
: And then I worked in a munition factory for the longest time.
: We made some kind of shells.
: And the work didn't bother us because we
: figured, as long as we worked, we were useful to them.
: And they were going to leave us alone.
: Did they?
: Yes.
: All of you?
: Yes.
: Now, I don't know what would have happened if the war had
: lasted another two years.
: But at that particular point, they didn't need us.
: After all, we worked for nothing.
: Did you ever find out what happened to the people that
: were there before you?
: No, we never knew even who was there before.
: We had all SS women as guards.
: And we all worked outside the camp.
: Do you know how many women were there?
: Oh, I would guess about 1,000.
: And we all worked outside the camp.
: Now, were several things that I do remember
: about this particular camp.
: For instance, something occurred, which to this day,
: I can't explain.
: All of a sudden, quite a few people
: would get attacks in the middle of the night
: during their sleep.
: I would compare it to--
: Epilepsy.
: --epilepsy.
: But it wasn't epilepsy.
: They would start foaming at their mouths.
: And they just throw around with their arms and legs real wild,
: and sort of moan and groan.
: And it would last for a while.
: And then it would stop.
: And when they woke up in the morning,
: they didn't remember a thing.
: Do you think it was in the food?
: I don't think so because not everybody did it, got it.
: It didn't happen to everybody, but to quite a few people.
: There were no experiments here?
: No.
: No.
: And they never went into the-- we did have a hospital ward.
: But nobody went in there unless they
: couldn't help it because it wasn't a very good idea
: to be sick.
: And it really frightened the rest of us who didn't have it.
: And this-- we didn't know where it might lead to.
: So this girlfriend and I, we talked it over.
: And we said, if it happens to either one of us,
: under those circumstances, do we want
: to be taken to the hospital?
: Luckily, it didn't happen to either one of us.
: It did happen to people who were in my building, in my room.
: That's the one thing I remember.
: And the other thing I remember, since we worked outside
: of the camp, we worked together with civilian workers
: that the Germans had brought in from Holland,
: from Poland, from all kinds of places.
: They were non-Jewish.
: And they were civilian slave laborers.
: They lived a little better.
: They lived also in camps.
: And they were allowed to go out.
: They were locked in.
: And they got a little bit better food.
: And they had their own clothing.
: But they still had to work for, I don't know--
: I don't think they got paid for the work either.
: But some of them had radios.
: They did get mail from home.
: So they knew what was going on in the world.
: Did you get any information at this point?
: And at this point, we did, because we weren't
: supposed to talk to them.
: But of course, when you work with someone side by side,
: you do talk to them.
: And there was a young fellow--
: Well, before you go into that story, what kind of information
: did you get?
: What were you hearing at this point?
: That was in 1944.
: And things were going very bad for the Germans, which
: really helped us a great deal to try even harder to survive.
: Were you hearing about the Russian front?
: Oh, yes.
: And the Americans?
: We heard about the landings in France,
: that the Americans had landed and that the Germans
: were driven back from Russia.
: And we heard all about that.
: We got every day-- we got the news from some of these people.
: And in particular, there's one fellow
: that I worked with, he was from Holland
: and apparently had a radio.
: Or I don't remember whether he got a newspaper or--
: he must have had a radio.
: Maybe they had an underground organization.
: I don't know.
: But he brought us all the news every day.
: Were you ever in contact with any underground organizations?
: No.
: Any resistance?
: No, never.
: Did you know anybody that was?
: Yes.
: Can you give me any information about that?
: Yes.
: I'll cover that later.
: OK.
: And this-- we also, working outside,
: we were able to get from some of those people coal, and food,
: and bread, and soap, and articles of clothing
: that they could spare.
: And we smuggled it into our camp.
: So it was consequently a lot easier there for us
: than it was at Auschwitz-- obviously, not for us.
: Every once in a while, we would open the boards in the ceiling
: and hide our surplus food up there because we
: had inspection twice a day.
: And while we were standing outside being counted twice
: a day, they were inspecting our barracks for items
: that we weren't supposed to have.
: And this one SS woman, particularly,
: who was always checking our building, she looked like--
: the SS woman, she looked like a very mean person.
: She had a very pinched face and probably was a nothing
: and a nobody in civilian life.
: And the fact that she could lord it over us
: really went to her head.
: And she was very, very cruel.
: In fact, there was another SS woman who were--
: I talked at one time.
: We were sitting there working.
: And she was sitting next to me.
: And she had listened to us, to the girls talking.
: And she asked me about my education, and my school,
: and about music, and this, and that.
: Because we talked a lot about music.
: There was one girl that I was friendly with.
: She was a music student before she had been picked up.
: And so this SS woman said to me, when
: I listen to the girls talking, I never
: even heard of such things.
: So that's the kind of people they were.
: So that was one of the reasons life
: was a little more tolerable there.
: We had-- everybody brought something back.
: And we had coal for our stove.
: We could warm our room up.
: And we had a little more to eat.
: And we got the good news that the war
: was going bad for the Germans.
: There was something else that I wanted to bring up.
: About the boy.
: Oh, yes.
: And as-- that was in 1944.
: As the winter came, and it got very cold, and it was snowing,
: most of us didn't have--
: nobody had the right clothing.
: We had no coats.
: We had no jackets.
: We had no stockings.
: A lot of them, a lot of the girls
: didn't have any shoes anymore.
: So it really was a problem.
: Many girls had to go to work wrapping their feet
: in newspaper or in rags.
: And it was really very, very tough.
: And this one SS woman that I mentioned before,
: who said that she never even heard of the things
: that we were talking about among us, I approached her one day
: and asked her if she would send a letter for me for some--
: to a friend of mine.
: And she said, yes.
: And I sent a letter to a non-Jewish woman
: that we had known in Vienna before the war
: and asked if she could send me some warm clothing
: and a pair of shoes.
: And she did.
: And that SS woman didn't give me the whole package
: because I saw her show up the day after she gave me my part
: that she thought I should have.
: She showed up in a brand new sweater and blouses.
: And I saw all kinds of things that she hadn't worn before.
: But that was all right with me.
: She gave me a sweater.
: And she gave me a pair of hiking boots
: that this woman had sent me, which really saved my life.
: So I didn't care what she kept for herself, as long
: as she gave me the shoes.
: Then there was another SS woman we had.
: She was a middle-aged woman.
: And she had a little more feeling than some of them.
: Because one time, I had impacted my foot on something.
: And the infection was rising up.
: You get a red streak up.
: And it was an hour's march home from the factory.
: I really couldn't walk because my leg was very bad.
: So she made me sit down on a cart that some of the women
: had been pulling with things that we
: had to take back and forth.
: She had me sit down on it.
: And so I didn't have to walk back to the camp.
: And she said to me, someday, you'll be all right.
: So there were some--
: How did the infection pass?
: We did have-- I think I mentioned
: before-- we did have a hospital ward there
: with doctors, inmate doctors.
: And I guess they must have had some kind of medication,
: a few medications.
: I really don't remember.
: I went there.
: And they kept me in the hospital there to treat me.
: And I stayed overnight.
: And the next day, I heard that the SS was going to inspect.
: And I got out of there very fast.
: And so I guess whatever medication
: they gave me must have done the trick because it was all right.
: OK.
: And this Dutch boy?
: Yes.
: As winter wore on, January, February, and we
: got all the news how bad it was for the Germans, then we--
: This is 1945?
: Right.
: Then we heard that the Russians are very near our camp.
: The Russians were coming from that direction.
: And we heard that the Russians are very close to the camp.
: This girlfriend and I, we both were from Vienna.
: Did each other before the war?
: Yes.
: Then there was another girl from Vienna,
: which we had become friendly with in the camp,
: and two girls that were from Czechoslovakia, from Prague.
: And we decided-- of course, first,
: we speculated, how is it going to be when the Russians come
: and liberate us?
: What's going to be?
: Are they going to shoot us first?
: Or are they just-- are we going to wake up one morning
: and the SS will be gone?
: Then we thought, well, we should prepare somehow
: for in either case.
: Then we heard that they were going
: to take all-- the whole camp, going to put on a long march
: to another camp.
: So in that case, we decide, we better
: find out where we are in--
: Conjunction.
: --conjunctions to our home.
: And I asked this Dutch boy if he could get us a map.
: And he got us a map of Germany and this whole part of Europe.
: And we started what would be the easiest way,
: if they put us on a long march to another camp--
: we had no intentions of going anywhere--
: how we could make ourselves disappearing, independent.
: In the meantime, he had brought us the map.
: And everything was fine.
: In the meantime, the Russians were coming closer.
: But we didn't know that they were several camps, quite
: a few other women's camps very close all around us.
: They were all what they used to call Aussenkommandos
: of Auschwitz, satellite camps of Auschwitz,
: all work camps, labor camps.
: And all of a sudden, all these camp
: came into our camp, thousands of women.
: They were sleeping every place--
: outside, in the dining hall.
: It was just unbelievable.
: I remember one woman, she was, I think, from Poland.
: She came there.
: And she gave birth there.
: And of course, she wanted to protect the baby.
: It was so late in the game, she certainly
: didn't want to be sent to Auschwitz with a baby
: and killed, which they would have done.
: Well, how do you keep a little baby from crying?
: But I hope-- as far as I knew, they protected her
: and the baby, her friends.
: And the last I knew, they were all right.
: Then there was another woman in our group,
: in our original group.
: Wait, let me ask you, do you know who
: the father of that baby was?
: So you don't know if she was raped?
: Oh, I doubt it very much.
: She probably had-- was pregnant when-- maybe she
: was from Hungary.
: They took the Hungarian Jews so late in 1944,
: she probably was pregnant when she came in.
: Then there was another young woman
: who was in our original group in that camp.
: And she was pregnant.
: And she was due any time.
: And it was maybe a week or two before our camp was broken up.
: They did, ultimately, take all of us,
: with all the women that had come from other camps,
: and send us on a march.
: Well, we just knew rumors where they were going to take us.
: We didn't know exactly.
: But they said-- the rumors were that we were
: going to go to Bergen-Belsen.
: About a week or two before they broke up the camp,
: this woman took off.
: Somehow, she escaped because she didn't
: want to have the baby in camp.
: And she didn't want to lose her life so late in the game.
: And I heard afterwards that she made it,
: after the war was over.
: I heard that she made it.
: She had the baby all by herself and in a field someplace.
: And then she-- when everything was over,
: she stopped a farmer, who came by with a horse cart.
: And she told him some kind of story.
: And he took her.
: At that time, all of Europe was on the march,
: those people running from one place to another.
: And you sort of could blend in with the population.
: Anyway, so when they ultimately did break up the camp
: and sent us on the march, we went along for a few days
: until we decided, if the camp--
: if the march goes this way, we have to go that way in order
: to get where we wanted to go.

: We-- the five of us took off.
: And that was only possible because we
: didn't have the regular SS guards on that transport.
: They were really-- what they used
: to call the home guard, the old people that they
: had put into uniforms.
: And they were soldiers.
: They were not SS.
: And they watched us.
: And they were carrying guns.
: But they didn't--
: I suppose at that point, they really didn't care.
: They didn't miss us.
: And we also knew that we didn't want
: to wind up in another camp.
: It was just too late in the game for us to lose our lives now.
: And we spent the next four weeks walking home.
: After a couple of weeks, we got to the border of--
: Czechoslovakian border.
: You mean, nobody stopped you?
: No.
: What we did-- one of the girls had had her hair shorn
: because she did something.
: I don't remember what it was.
: She did something.
: And as punishment, they shaved her head off.
: So she had very short hair, like an inch all around.
: So she had to wear a scarf all the time.
: And we used to stop at farmhouses
: and tell them some kind of story that our parents were
: evacuated by the Germans.
: They ran away from the Russians, and we
: got lost, and things like that.
: And they believed us because that's what--
: that what was happening, actually, at the time.
: There was so much confusion.
: And the farmers would give us food,
: and would let us stay overnight, and were generally pretty nice.
: Of course, they didn't know who we were.
: Now, I had-- and that was the winter.
: I had a black wool coat.
: I don't even remember where I got that.
: But it had a big patch in the back with stripes on it.
: So when I tore off the stripes, because I couldn't very well go
: with the stripes, there was a-- they had cut out
: a hole underneath in the coat.
: So I had a big hole, square hole there.
: And so we had to cut out another part of the coat
: and sort of cover that up.
: It was really-- thinking back now, I couldn't do it today.
: And if somebody have told you two years or five years sooner,
: you would have said, I can't do that today either.
: I think if you would need to, you could be able to do it.
: And one of the girls, she had wooden clogs.
: And they would stick to the snow until she
: would have about eight inches of snow on her,
: sticking to her shoes, and couldn't walk anymore.
: So we had to stop every few minutes
: till she got the snow off.
: It was really-- and one night, I remember very clearly,
: it was in the winter and the snow on the ground.
: And we were walking and walking.
: And we had to keep away from the main roads,
: stick to the small roads, and make ourselves very invisible.
: And it was getting late.
: And there was no farmhouse in sight.
: And we were hungry and we were tired.
: And we decided, well, we'll just have to sleep outside tonight.
: That's all we can do.
: And that's exactly what we did.
: We stayed outside all night.
: We didn't sleep very much.
: But we lasted through the night.
: And after two weeks, we got to the Czechoslovakian border.
: And three of the-- two of the girls that--
: whose home was in Prague, they went over the border there.
: And they went home.
: And we just kept on going.
: Sometimes, we stopped trucks and asked them for a ride.
: And one time, we stopped a military truck
: and asked them for a ride.
: Who's military?
: Nazis?
: German-- German soldiers.
: They give you a ride?
: They sure did.
: They didn't know who we were.
: And in fact, one of the soldiers really
: tried to make a play for that one girl that was with us.
: And the way we looked, I don't know.
: He must have really been desperate
: because we were a sight.
: We hadn't washed in weeks.
: Our clothes were nothing to speak about, believe me.
: But anyway, it was really funny.
: We had our funny moments too.
: And everything went pretty smooth,
: except for a couple of times when
: the farmers were suspicious.
: But we got out of that too.
: And I was back in Vienna in February of 1945,
: when Vienna was still under German occupation.
: Where did you go?
: I went to this woman who had sent me
: the shoes and the sweater.
: And she too-- I had sent her a postcard that I'm coming.
: Well, I don't even remember how I got the postcard
: or how I got the money for the postcard,
: to tell you the truth.
: But I did send her a postcard from several hundred miles
: away because I didn't want her to faint
: right away when she sees me.
: And I want her to know that I was coming.
: And I sent another woman who was a friend
: of my mother's, also non-Jewish, a card that I was coming.
: And the first place I went to, this woman,
: who sent me the shoes--
: What about Topolski?
: I didn't even think about her at the moment.
: And I knocked on her door.
: And there I was.
: And the first thing I did, I took three baths in a row.
: We burned our clothes, my clothes.
: And she gave me clothes to wear.
: But I couldn't stay with her because she
: was being watched by the Germans because she was a socialist.
: And she was being watched by the Germans.
: And she was very nervous having me there one night, even.
: Then I said to her, OK, I'll go to this other friend
: that we have.
: I'll go to her.
: And I did go to this other woman the next day.
: And I stayed with her for oh, a couple of weeks.
: At that time, there were air raids every night.
: Vienna was very heavily bombarded at that time.
: And we had to go into the basement every night.
: And people got very curious.
: Who is this girl all of a sudden?
: They hadn't seen me there in five years.
: And where does she come from also?
: This woman happened to be from the country.
: And she told her I was a niece of hers
: that came in from the country.
: So then I had another friend, a friend of mine, a young couple.
: And they were also non-Jewish.
: And I got in touch with them.
: And they told me to come there and stay with them for a time.
: And I stayed with them for, well, another two or three
: weeks.
: And then March or April, I don't remember anymore--
: was either March or April when the Russians came into Vienna.
: And I was very happy to see them, on the one hand.
: On the other hand, I had another problem.
: The Russians were looting and raping all over the place.
: And I thought to myself, now, if after all that,
: I'm going to be raped by a Russian,
: I won't have time to explain to him who I am or what I am.
: First of all, I can't talk Russian.
: He can't understand me.
: And that would be really too bad for me.
: And that really bothers me an awful lot.
: So we had worked all kinds--
: I believe it.
: I believe it.
: As glad as I was to see them--
: but we had worked out a very elaborate system.
: They had a dumbwaiter in the kitchen.
: So if there was any kind of trouble with the Russians,
: this girl-- this friend of mine and I,
: we were going to go into the dumbwaiter.
: And they were going to take us up all the way to the attic.
: And I don't know what else.
: But anyway, we worked out all kinds of plans.
: And that's--
: Did you ever have to do anything with any of those plans?
: No, no.
: We were lucky we didn't have to.
: One of the things that I've always wondered about
: was whether or not the Jewish women,
: at any point at all in this entire eight-year tale,
: were being used for sexual purposes
: by Nazis, or Russians, or anybody.
: I mean, to me that's the ultimate degradation.
: Well--
: What about that woman who could get you the soap I don't know--
: I didn't know her.
: And I never saw her again.
: She was just a girl that had been there probably
: longer than I. And she looked like she
: had some kind of position there where she had access to things.
: Because she was better-dressed and she
: looked cleaner and healthier.
: And she just wanted to be nice and gave us something
: that we really needed.
: I don't know about her.
: But I don't know anyone personally.
: But I have heard that they used Jewish women as prostitutes
: and that they lived in their own houses, these women.
: But I never had any access to these things.
: I never saw any of the living quarters of the SS.
: I never spoke to a woman who had that experience.
: I just don't know.
: But I have heard that that was the case.
: All right.
: You want to tell me about the resistance?
: I didn't-- I know that there was a resistance, of course.
: And I didn't know how many Jewish people
: were in the resistance.
: I didn't know about the Warsaw uprising
: at all until after the war.
: But after the war, I met a man.
: He was a doctor at the Jewish hospital, where I went back
: to work after the war
: Is this Victor?
: No, No.
: And he had-- he told me that he was with the Yugoslavian
: resistance.
: And I asked him questions about it.
: And he told me, it wasn't all that it was cracked up
: to be to be Jewish and in the resistance because they really
: didn't care for the Jewish people,
: even in the resistance groups.
: And he thought that was the only way
: he knew how to save his life.
: Was there any Jewish resistance?
: I've heard after the war that there
: were Jewish resistance groups in Lithuania,
: in Russia, in Poland.
: Do you have anything else that you want
: to add, any random thoughts?
: Well, I don't really know what to say because there were six
: million Jews in camps or more--
: probably more than six.
: Six million Jews died.
: And there are six million stories
: at least because everybody's experience was different.
: How did you find out your parents were dead?
: Well, frankly, when I came back and when the war was over.
: I really didn't expect them-- to see them again
: from what I've heard in the meantime.
: But nevertheless, I always, always waited.
: And when I heard any kind of noise
: outside the windows at night, it woke me up because I thought,
: maybe it's my mother or my father coming back and calling
: up to me that they're here.
: Were you in the same house?
: No, I was with friends, with that young couple
: that I spoke of before.
: But they knew them too.
: And I figured, if any of them get back,
: they will contact the people we knew before the war
: and find out where I am.
: And so for a while, for several months--
: when people kept straggling back--
: every week or so, a few would come back from here, and there,
: and everywhere.
: I was hoping, maybe, by a miracle, both of them
: or one of them would come back.
: Because there's one of the girls that
: was with us when we escaped, her father did come back.
: I don't remember where he was, but her father did come back.

Overview

Interviewee: Laurie K. Schiff

Physical Details

Language: English
Extent: 2 sound cassettes (60 min.).

Rights & Restrictions

Conditions on Access: There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
Conditions on Use: No restrictions on use

Keywords & Subjects

Topical Term: Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives. Holocaust survivors--United States.
Personal Name: Schiff, Laurie Klaper.

Administrative Notes

Holder of Originals: One Generation After
Legal Status: Permanent Collection
Provenance: The interview with Laurie Klaper Schiff was conducted by One Generation After, a Boston based group of children of Holocaust survivors, for the One Generation After oral history project. The tapes of the interview were received by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on January 7, 1990.
Special Collection: The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive

Record last modified:: 2023-11-16 08:10:04
This page:: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn510162

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