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Oral history interview with Gerald Hirsch

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1993.A.0094.13 | RG Number: RG-50.150.0013

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    Oral history interview with Gerald Hirsch
    Transcript
    I was born in 1925, the 4th of May, in Aachen,
    also called Aix-la-Chapelle, in Germany.
    Did you grow up in Aachen?
    I was in Aachen for approximately three
    to four years--
    five years.
    And I don't remember too much of it.
    And afterwards, I moved to Dortmund.
    And you grew up and went to school in Dortmund?
    Yes.
    As a matter of fact, I went to school there
    until I was about 13, at which time was the regulation
    that you had to go to a Jewish school, at which point
    I left my local school and went to a school in Dortmund.
    Actually, I was living in Dortmund Hombruch,
    which was a suburb of Dortmund.
    During all the time that you were going to the regular
    school, the Volksschule in Dortmund Hombruch,
    did you have as many non-Jewish as Jewish friends or--
    Yes, I would say I had more non-Jewish friends
    than Jewish friends since the Jewish community
    was rather small in the area that I lived.
    When you say the Jewish community was rather small,
    you mean in the small suburb or in Dortmund itself?
    In the small suburb.
    Dortmund was a rather large community.
    And it had several synagogues, one
    which I remember especially, which I might want to tell you
    about a little later on.
    OK.
    But in this suburb, in Dortmund Hombruch,
    did you belong to a congregation there?
    Yes, I belonged to a congregation,
    which, as a matter of fact, happened
    to be in a different town.
    And the congregation there was somewhat large,
    which was comprised of different surrounding communities.
    Was this an Orthodox or a Liberal congregation?
    It was Liberal.
    As you were going to school, from, I guess, 1931,
    '32 on, you grew up then with mostly non-Jewish friends.
    How did Hitler's coming to power in '33
    affect your relationship with them?
    I would say that the friends that I had,
    it didn't affect it at all, although there
    were some instances that kind of were surprising to me
    after Hitler came to power.
    But the age that I was in, you generally
    don't expect any special change.
    Right.
    You said there were some things that were surprising to you.
    Yeah, well, it has to do with some students
    that I wasn't especially friends with
    but kind of shied away from me.
    And I remember one special instance
    that sticks in my mind.
    And that came as a real shock to me.
    There was one student that I practically didn't know at all.
    And one fine day he confronted me at a intersection
    and, without any provocation, knocked me
    in the throat and the eye.
    And this is something that stays with me to this day
    because, at the time, I didn't really realize why.
    And later on, of course, came the explanation.
    When you say later on came the explanation,
    who made the explanation?
    He did.
    He did?
    Just because I was Jewish.
    After he hit you?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    As you were growing up in this school,
    you mentioned that the friends that you
    had stayed your friends.
    Yes.
    What about the teachers?
    Did they ever cause any problem?
    No, no problem.
    Children like to belong, especially at that age.
    Did you begin to notice a great number of them
    belonging to the Hitler Youth?
    Yes, there were some students that I
    remember belonged to it, although my relationship
    with them was normal.
    And I would say that, speaking about belonging,
    I wanted very badly to belong to an organization in Dortmund,
    which was a trolley ride away from where I lived.
    And naturally, my mother and grandmother
    were kind of protective at that time,
    and probably with rightful reasons.
    And they did not especially allow me
    at that time to go to Dortmund to belong to that organization.
    After this incident that you mentioned
    before where this fellow came and hit you,
    do you remember going home and telling your parents about it?
    I don't quite remember that aspect of it,
    although I remember it came--
    it did hurt quite a bit, but the effect from it,
    the mental effect from it, was more than the
    hurt that I had that particular day.
    Right.
    What do you mean by the mental effects?
    Well, at that time, I realized that being a Jew in Germany
    was something special and that, well, we better watch out,
    you know?
    That must have been a very rough feeling
    for a kid of 11 years old.
    Yes.
    Yes, I was 11, 12 years old at the time.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    How did you feel about being a Jew in Germany?
    How did you feel about being a Jew at that point?
    Well, being that young, you don't give it
    that many thoughts about it.
    And as you grow older, you think back.
    And you get to be more philosophical
    as you grow older.
    But at the time, I didn't give it that much thought.
    When a young person is in an unusual condition
    but not especially realizing it, you
    feel like, well, this is a normal condition
    and not knowing that it is an unusual condition.
    Did any of your other friends come to your aid?
    You mean at that particular--
    Either at that particular time or at any other time.
    Well, I guess the aid consisted in not
    discontinuing being friends.
    And that was enough for me.
    Were they able to continue being your friend
    and still belong to the Hitler Youth, if that was the case?
    There were one or two instances that I remember faintly
    where the relationship cooled on account of that.
    But by and large, the relationship
    were maintained at the same level, yes.
    What type of business was your father in at that time?
    My father, at the time, was in the cloth business,
    the textile business, to sell to different tailors.
    And he went all over to sell his--
    Was he a sales representative?
    No, he was in business on his own,
    but it was a relatively small business.
    And he went to different tailors in the area to sell textiles.
    Was his client--
    I used the word, "client."
    Were his customers mainly Jewish or non-Jewish as well?
    I think they were both.
    But I do remember certain customers that
    were specifically Jewish, yes.
    When Hitler came to power in '33, was his business affected?
    Yes.
    In what way?
    Yes, it diminished.
    It did.
    Markedly so?
    Yes.
    Do you remember the discussions at home
    at this point of possible emigration
    or what to do about the situation?
    The thing that somewhat sticks in my mind
    is my grandfather, who died shortly
    before Hitler came to power.
    Approximately half a year before things
    started rolling, he said, if Hitler comes to power,
    this will be very bad for the Jews.
    And unfortunately, his prophecy became true.
    Did your family believe after he came to power that
    [SPEAKING GERMAN] or--
    No, we, like, I'd say, 95% of Jews in Germany,
    underestimated the implications.
    And I saw this movie, A Ship of Fools.
    And what sticks in my mind in that particular--
    I mean, I remember a lot of different instances,
    but what specifically sticks in my mind is where this gentleman
    says, well, you see here?
    I have the Iron Cross.
    And nothing is going to happen to me because I
    fought in the First World War.
    And when they see this, nothing is going to happen to me.
    And this was the natural inclination of a lot of Jews.
    Did your father fight in the First World War?
    Yes.
    And my father, in a way, happened
    to have that same opinion, until very drastically
    on the Crystal Night.
    He happened to have been in Dortmund selling,
    and he stayed with somebody.
    And I only knew about it later that he was beaten.
    He was unconscious in a gutter for X number of hours,
    which I don't know.
    And it happened that several months later, I
    would say probably three months after that particular instance,
    he felt that it would be of no use to stay in Germany,
    and he illegally went to Holland.
    And I remember his goodbye.
    And this is the last time that I saw him.
    It is?
    Yes.
    We'll come back to that in a second.
    I just would like to go back for a moment to the school.
    You mentioned that, in 1938, you had to go to the Jewish school?
    Yes.
    You were 13, you said, so it would be 1938?
    Yes.
    And in that connection, I would also
    like to tell you that on this particular Crystal Night,
    nothing happened to my mother, my grandmother, and myself,
    who were together at that time.
    And since it was a small town, there were, I would say,
    no more than six Jewish families.
    And we were told later that [SPEAKING GERMAN]..
    Do you understand?
    No harm can come to this--
    No harm should come to them whatsoever.
    They shouldn't be touched, including myself.
    But this we didn't know until some time thereafter.
    And the following morning--
    we are not knowing anything of what happened--
    I went to school as usual.
    And that is the Jewish school now, in Dortmund.
    And no sooner did I arrive that the teacher there said,
    well, we have to go on a trip, my class.
    And I, together with my class and possibly another class,
    went by foot about 10 minutes to the neighboring major Dortmund
    synagogue.
    And one thing I also remember for life,
    and I see it as if it was yesterday.
    We went into the major entrance of the Dortmund synagogue.
    And as I entered, I see at the [INAUDIBLE],, the front,
    I see the stones, the Ten Commandments.
    And as if on command, it toppled down,
    and it broke in a hundred pieces.
    And this is the first thing that I noticed.
    And I thought it was something unnatural happening
    because this is something you don't expect.
    And of course, then I saw that there
    were workmen who toppled it down because of the damage done
    to the Ten Commandments, the stones, as it came down.
    And this is something I won't forget.
    And this is the first inclination
    I had that something unusual was amiss.
    When you say there are workmen, there
    were workmen there destroying the building?
    Or had it already been destroyed the night--
    It had already been destroyed the night before,
    which I did not realize.
    But I suppose that the workmen there at the time
    were there to topple it due to the fact
    that it would have caused-- there was a hazard.
    It was already damaged.
    What condition was the building in when you came there?
    The general condition was not too bad, as I remember.
    But the religious areas, especially the front,
    were defaced and destroyed.
    And we were there specifically-- the reason why
    we were there is to clean up.
    To clean up?
    Yes.
    This was a teacher from the Jewish school who took you?
    Yes, yes.
    Was she a Jewish-- she or he a Jewish--
    She was a Jewish teacher, yes.
    Yes.
    On whose instructions?
    Do you know?
    No.
    Apparently they were told to come to the synagogue,
    and I guess he must have known what happened.
    But as for myself, this is the first inkling
    that I had that something was wrong.
    How did you feel seeing this synagogue which
    had been so defaced?
    It was a terrific shock.
    Was there any discussion among the kids or with the teachers?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes.
    What was the line of discussion at the time, if you
    can remember?
    Well, I don't really remember.
    It was just that we were all very shocked.
    It must have been very hard to walk in there
    and to see what kind of damage.
    Well, this is something that will stay with me for life
    because I am not basically, quote, "that religious."
    But in certain areas that--
    when things happen to the Jewish people,
    you feel not 100%, but 200% Jewish.
    In fact, did that thought come to you at the time,
    that you felt even more Jewish?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes, absolutely.
    It reinforced my belief in the Jewish religion and Jewishness,
    yes.
    Do you ever remember going home and speaking to your parents
    about--
    I mean, you were a young kid-- about being Jewish
    and why you were singled out in Germany and the feelings
    that you were having?
    Well, no, not specifically in that vein,
    but it was enough to read some of the magazines, for example.
    Gee, this is so long ago.
    You bring back very, very old memories.
    But I remember there was a newspaper section that
    was built near a street where you could read the latest news.
    And there was one section that was reserved for Der Stürmer.
    And out of curiosity, I went there a number of times
    and read what was written there.
    And I think, more than anything else,
    reading the articles in Der Stürmer brought home to me what
    it was like to be Jewish because of the lies
    and other propaganda that was written in it.
    It's interesting.
    What you saw in the Stürmer, was that
    reflected in what you were seeing in your daily life?
    Or was your daily life different from the--
    the Stürmer was--
    I'm having trouble with the same word--
    was specifically violent and very vociferous
    in their anti-Jewish--
    Well, looking back to it, Der Stürmer, to me,
    it had the same caricatures like the Americans
    drew of the Japanese during the Second World War.
    That's what the caricatures that the Stürmer drew
    of the Jews and any undesirables that they felt
    were undesirable.
    And so the big lie, I think, was very effective in Der Stürmer.
    And I think it did contribute to the prevailing
    atmosphere in Germany, yes.
    How did your parents try and protect you--
    I mean, emotionally-- from all these experiences?
    Well, as I had said previously, I
    wasn't that specially aware of the grand scale
    of what was going on.
    But specifically, these two instances
    that I related to you of this boy punching me
    and the thing with the synagogue in Germany,
    and of course, the following revealing nature of what
    happened to my father--
    also, naturally, there were other areas
    where my uncle made some kind of remark someplace
    in a restaurant.
    And the following day, he was taken to the Gestapo,
    and they did a so-called number on him.
    Was this also in Dortmund?
    And this was also there, yes.
    When you say a so-called number--
    Well, he was violated, you know, the atrocity.
    He had his fingers pressed and things of that nature.
    But he was released.
    And naturally, all these additional violations
    to the human spirit and body contributed
    to our final decision to leave Germany, naturally.
    I have to backtrack just for a minute.
    At the time that you went to the Jewish school,
    that was before Kristallnacht?
    Yes.
    Am I correct?
    Yes.
    OK.
    Were you told specifically that you
    could no longer enter the regular school
    you had been attending?
    Yes, that was the reason.
    That was the reason why I went to the Jewish school
    in Dortmund, yes.
    Who informed you of this?
    This I don't remember.
    Do you remember leaving the school
    that you had gone to for all those years?
    Do you remember your last day?
    No.
    No, I don't remember my last day.
    I did go to France by myself.
    Or should I-- should I--
    No, I meant the last day that you
    were leaving the school, the regular school before you
    went to the Jewish school.
    No, I don't remember that.
    Did it bother you to leave all these friends
    that you had been with?
    Naturally, naturally.
    But being a young person, you're resilient,
    and you take things in stride normally.
    How did you feel about the Jewish school?
    I liked it.
    I liked it.
    I felt more at ease, I must say, there.
    When I was in the other school, there
    was always some kind of a strangeness as it developed.
    But when I went in the Jewish school,
    I felt considerably different.
    That I do remember, yes.
    The other school-- Dortmund was--
    or that area was predominantly Catholic.
    Is that--
    Yes, yes, Catholic, Protestant.
    Did you notice any difference between the Catholic kids
    and the Protestant kids in terms of their reactions?
    No, I wasn't aware of that at the time.
    OK.
    It was just a--
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now, you mentioned on Kristallnacht
    that your father was in Dortmund?
    Yes.
    How did you find out what happened to him?
    This was about two or three days later when I saw him,
    when he came to me with a big bandage over his head
    because he had been hit over the head.
    And he related to me what had happened.
    During those two or three days, you had no idea where he was?
    No.
    You and your mother and--
    No, I had no idea.
    Do you remember an atmosphere of being really afraid of what
    had happened to him?
    Well, as a matter of fact, I must also
    relate that when we became aware of what had happened,
    at the time, my mother lived with my grandfather
    and grandmother in their own house, which
    had been rented by a butcher who now conducted the business
    that my grandfather had.
    And when we became aware of what had happened,
    the parents of the butcher, who also lived now in our house,
    took me in in Dortmund because we were afraid of--
    or rather my mother and grandmother were afraid
    at the time that something there--
    they would pick me up as well, because they picked up--
    I remember one friend of mine, a Jewish friend that I had,
    of whom I have not heard from since,
    since that particular night.
    And he was my age.
    And he was picked up by the Gestapo?
    And he was picked up that particular night.
    And, gee, these are very old memories that just come down.
    Who arranged for you to go to Dortmund,
    to go to this butcher's parents' house?
    The butcher himself with--
    my grandmother or my mother asked him
    whether they would be willing to do that.
    And when we did know that, that's what happened.
    I was there for several days.
    Did you realize the purpose of your going there?
    Yes, yes.
    When you were there, were you restricted at all
    as far as going out or--
    Yes.
    I stayed there.
    I stayed put.
    Inside?
    Inside.
    These people were non-Jewish, I take it?
    They were non-Jewish, yes.
    And then you mentioned three days later
    your father came back, so I assume that you had also
    come back by then?
    Yes.
    When your father came back and related
    what had happened to him on Kristallnacht, how did you--
    It was a traumatic experience which
    is still with me to this day.
    It must have been quite traumatic
    in terms of your father had believed that Hitler would not
    gain that much strength.
    Yes, if anything, that, I am sure,
    gave him the impetus to leave Germany.
    How about your mother?
    Was she more anxious to leave than your father at an--
    Well, you know, this was still rather early during the Hitler
    regime.
    And when I went to Dortmund was a rather precautionary measure
    that I wouldn't be picked up.
    But still, there was this prevailing belief
    that women and children would not be touched.
    And so the desire to leave Germany, of course, was there,
    but not really as strong as it became subsequently.
    Between the time your father came home
    after Kristallnacht and the time he left for Holland, how would
    you describe the atmosphere?
    Oppressive.
    How did that show itself inside your own house?
    Well, we were talking more about it.
    And there was not a day that went
    by that we didn't talk about the events, the past events.
    And naturally, I was still in shock from--
    not of what happened to me, but of what happened to my father.
    And we realized that things were rather serious.
    Was he still in his business at this time?
    Yes.
    Was his business--
    He did not have an open business.
    He had a business of going to different tailors
    and selling his wares.
    I see.
    Did these tailors, were they still buying from him,
    the non-Jewish ones?
    Yes, although the business was drastically curtailed,
    especially after the 9th of November.
    [AUDIO OUT]
    Getting a little bit ahead of myself.
    No, no, that's all right.
    What were the possibilities discussed during that time
    as far as emigration?
    Well, there were several possibilities
    that presented itself.
    But I would say 90% of it revolved
    around going to America.
    And that was the final goal of all of us.
    Now, I couldn't tell you in a specific time frame,
    but I'm just recalling as what we were thinking about
    because another uncle of mine left subsequently,
    then another uncle, so.
    For America?
    For America.
    How did you go about trying to get to America?
    Did you have relatives?
    We had some very far relatives who
    were willing, at that point, to give us an affidavit.
    However, since our number was far removed
    from the prevailing numbers to leave Germany,
    that looked, to us, like years ahead.
    And I must say that my father, as I said, about three months
    after the Kristallnacht, left for Holland.
    How did that come about?
    How did that decision come about?
    That decision came about because I'm
    sure he felt that men would be in terrific jeopardy
    and that women were, as of that time, still relatively safe.
    It was unthinkable that women and children
    would be touched at all.
    I mean, that was Germany, the culture, the cultured country.
    And it's something that a lot of people
    say, well, how come the Jews didn't
    realize what was going on?
    Because things were rather unthinkable.
    It was unthinkable to put something
    on like that on television the way
    it really was, like this latest series, The Holocaust.
    I would say it's better to put this on television,
    even in a watered down form, than not at all.
    Not for the people that lived through it, but for the coming
    generation, it is imperative that this shall not
    be forgotten.
    Going back to your father's leaving for Holland,
    what opportunity presented itself for him to go to--
    Yes, now, this was a rather simple, alternate thing for him
    to do.
    He, of course, knew--
    he had a lot of contacts in Aachen, where I was born.
    And Aachen is close to Belgium, as well as Holland.
    As a matter of fact, I remember going there
    because all the three countries converged in the area.
    So he knew several people who knew of certain areas
    that you could get into either Belgium or Holland,
    in areas that were not supervised by soldiers that
    would prevent you from going.
    So he went.
    One night, he left.
    And he went to Holland at that time.
    You were still only 13 years old.
    Yes.
    Were you an only child?
    Yes.
    That must have been a very difficult thing to--
    Yes.
    And naturally, as I said, I remember him departing.
    And he practically didn't get his trolley at the time
    because he wanted to stay with me till the last moment.
    There are certain things in your life that you never forget.
    And of course, this is one of them.
    So about approximately a half year later,
    I went on a visitor's pass to France--
    not an immigration visa because at the time
    we did still not get it--
    knowing full well that I would never return to Germany.
    And my mother and my grandmother were still in Germany
    at the time.
    And we were hopeful that the immigration number
    would come up soon so that they would
    be able to leave to Germany.
    They would be able to leave to--
    To America, I'm sorry.
    And there were so many other things that happened,
    which within the confines of this interview, is rather--
    I cannot tell.
    Well, when your father left for Holland,
    how did you plan to reunite, if that was the plan when he left?
    The idea at the time was to leave Germany.
    And he knew that I was going to leave Germany to go to France--
    He knew this?
    OK.
    --and eventually, getting the visitor's--
    I'm sorry, the visa to go to America.
    And I had felt that this would be the final destination
    and that it might take just about two or three months
    until that would happen.
    And as it turned out--
    I mean, I could talk about it for hours,
    why this particular thing did not take place.
    The war came in between.
    And maybe I talk a little bit more about it.
    Well, when your father left for Holland, did he think he was--
    you mentioned that the goal was America.
    Yes.
    How did he feel about safety in Holland?
    Well, since this was pre-war, and since there was no inkling
    that Germany subsequently would attack
    Holland, et cetera, et cetera, he must have felt rather safe.
    OK.
    Were you in contact with him after he left?
    Yes.
    You were in written--
    I take it, in written contact and letter?
    Yes.
    What happened to him after he left that night?
    Well, shall I tell you the story of my father
    as it pertains to him over a period of about three years
    or so?
    Mm-hmm.
    [AUDIO OUT]
    OK.
    We were at your father.
    Yes.
    What happens to him after he leaves?
    Well, as I said, about three or four months after he left,
    I was in France on a visitor's pass, as I said before.
    And we were staying in-- we were in correspondence.
    And he, at the time, moved from Holland to Belgium.
    Illegally again?
    Illegally again, yes.
    And I arrived in France at Strasbourg.
    And soon thereafter, Germany--
    rather, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany.
    And Strasbourg had to be evacuated because it
    was right at the border.
    And so I moved to a different town in France with my--
    by the way, I was staying with my--
    this is another part of the story,
    but I would like to concentrate that somewhat later.
    I just want to concentrate on my father right now.
    Anyway, he was then in Belgium at the time
    that I was in a town called Alencon in France, which
    I moved further because of events
    that happened with Germany invading Holland and Belgium.
    Alencon is still in Alsace-Lorraine
    or further into France?
    No, Alencon was more in the interior of France.
    As a matter of fact, it was approximately 100 miles
    from Paris.
    OK.
    All right, just to--
    And subsequently, as the Germans progressed
    into Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, then France,
    at that point, I lost touch with him.
    And later on, I received a letter from him
    from a camp in the southern part of France called Récébédou.
    And I was still, at the time, in the northern part of France.
    And to tell you about what happened to my father
    after that, is somewhat disjointed
    because a lot of things had happened in between.
    OK, so maybe we ought to take it--
    Come back, OK.
    OK?
    OK.
    Now, your father was then in Holland,
    and you left for France.
    What brought about this decision to leave for France for you?
    Well, because, at the time, we realized
    that it would be the best thing to do
    considering the conditions in Germany at the time.
    Did you have a place to go in France?
    To my aunt and uncle.
    In Strasbourg?
    In Strasbourg, who were already in France, residents of France.
    They had been German, though?
    They had left Germany?
    They had been German, and they had left Germany, yes.
    OK.
    All right.
    Now, on the day that-- again, this was 1939,
    so you were 14, right, when you left?
    I was close to being 14, yes.
    OK.
    As a 14-year-old boy, the day that you left--
    you mentioned how traumatic it was the day
    that your father left, but it must
    have been equally difficult on the day that you left.
    Yes, it was difficult knowing that I would go by myself.
    But naturally, the younger you are,
    the more hope you have in the future.
    And I felt that, in due time, I would be
    reunited with the whole family.
    How did you feel about your mother and grandmother?
    I felt that, within a relatively short period of time,
    that they would be able to go straight to America.
    Do you remember your mother on the day that you left?
    Yes.
    I remember one specific thing that
    happened the day that I left, which was rather funny.
    I was blonde at the time, but apparently I
    wasn't blonde enough for my mother.
    And she took some peroxide and made my hair still
    blonder so that it would appear that I would look like an Aryan
    when going over the border.
    And as a matter of fact, I remember
    another funny incident.
    As I went over the border, I made fun of the Germans,
    not realizing that I was still in German territory.
    But everything went all right.
    Who did you go--
    you mentioned that you made fun of them.
    Did you go with anybody?
    No, I went by myself.
    You just met people on the train, is that--
    No, I--
    --when you said you met--
    No, when I made fun of the Germans,
    it was right at the border.
    It was right to the authorities, to the German authorities
    themselves.
    And I didn't realize that I was still in German territory.
    [LAUGHS] What was their reaction to that?
    Well, I think they were rather non-committal
    because [LAUGHS] I made several remarks,
    but apparently nothing happened, so.
    The reason I asked you about the--
    if you remembered your mother, it
    must have been quite hard for her.
    Your father had gone a couple of months earlier.
    Yes.
    And you, as a 13, 14-year-old boy.
    Yes.
    Did she ever express the difficulty
    that she must have been feeling?
    Well, it's not necessary for a parent
    to express a new feeling.
    True enough.
    I was just thinking, I grew up with my grandparents too.
    And I know that especially, your wife
    said before, a grandparent can be very
    indulgent of grandchildren.
    Yes, that's right.
    Well, you went straight there to your aunt and uncle
    then, in Strasbourg?
    Yes.
    OK.
    How long did you stay in Strasbourg?
    Up until the point where Strasbourg
    was evacuated due to the fact that now
    that France was in war with Germany.
    OK.
    So this is, what, May 1940, with the invasion?
    Or you had to get out--
    Strasbourg was evacuated probably, oh, I'd
    say three or four months after France declared war.
    And there was this so-called--
    I think they called it the twilight war, where
    there was more of a war of words than of guns at the time.
    It was very static because the French government felt that,
    as we all know, that the--
    they felt very safe behind the Maginot Line.
    And since the guns were pointed towards Germany,
    fixed in one position, they felt quite comfortable.
    But anyway, just as a precautionary measure,
    they did evacuate Strasbourg.
    And if I am at liberty to recall something
    that happened subsequently, after we moved from Strasbourg,
    which is also one of the things that you remember for life.
    And there was an occasion that my aunt had
    to go back to Strasbourg after Strasbourg was evacuated,
    and I went along for the ride.
    And it is a fantastic sight to see a city that was thriving
    and live to be completely empty, devoid of everything.
    The entire city was evacuated?
    The entire city.
    The thing that I remember is that on every street corner
    there was a little container with food.
    And the only thing that you saw moving,
    except an occasional gendarme and soldier,
    were dogs and cats.
    You think that the city was populated by dogs and cats
    rather than by people.
    And it was a rather eerie sight to see.
    I'm sure that's true, but can I ask
    what was the purpose of her going back to--
    Yes, the purpose was that my aunt and uncle had
    a haberdashery store, which was a little bit more than that,
    but-- and they had merchandise therein.
    And the idea was to save as much of the merchandise as possible
    towards establishing another store further in the center
    of France.
    France, OK.
    Now, I have to get back.
    One more thought occurs to me.
    When you left, were you able to take any money along or only
    the 10 reichsmark?
    No, I think I took very little money along,
    whatever it was at the time.
    10 reichsmark is possible, yes.
    Do you remember when your father left, whether--
    No, I don't know of any particulars
    of what happened to him after he said goodbye to me
    until the time that he was in Holland.
    OK.
    The reason I ask that is simply in terms of living in Holland,
    as far as getting--
    Oh, what he did take with him that established somewhat
    his living?
    He, I believe, had a few diamonds.
    And yes, he did have diamonds, as I probably
    can relate to you later.
    And he must have sold by and large what he had to--
    Something convertible.
    Into money, yes.
    OK.
    And you were living with this aunt and uncle
    so that money was not a problem as far as you were concerned?
    No.
    OK.
    When you went to Strasbourg, did you go to school there?
    Yes.
    How did that-- did you speak French?
    No, I did not speak French.
    And within a relatively short period of time--
    I would say within about three months--
    I was able to converse.
    What about the feeling that the French were, at that time,
    very anti-German?
    Did you feel any of that in school?
    No.
    No, I did not.
    The kids were very--
    Yes.
    --readily accepting?
    Kids are kids the world everywhere.
    But kids can sometimes be very cruel.
    Yes, it's true, as I had found out, yes.
    OK.
    So after Strasbourg was evacuated, where did you move?
    We went to a place called Bourbonne-les-Bains.
    It's probably not even on the map.
    Say it again?
    Bourbon?
    Bourbonne-les-Bains.
    Les-Bains, OK.
    Now I know how to spell it.
    [LAUGHTER]
    What sticks in my mind about that is,
    we were living in a really like a castle,
    with all of its unmodern fixtures, et cetera, et cetera.
    How unmodern were the fixtures?
    Well, there were outhouses and whatever,
    but that's the best we could come up with at the time.
    We were living together there with another family.
    How were you able to come up with this?
    How were you able to find this?
    I don't remember.
    Somebody did.
    But very shortly after that, we moved
    to a place called Alencon in France,
    which was approximately 100 miles away from Paris.
    Do you remember your aunt and uncle
    getting any help in terms of information
    to move to Bourbonne-les-Bains or Alencon?
    No, I don't remember the particulars about that.
    I do remember that we lived in Strasbourg--
    I would say I lived in Strasbourg about a half a year.
    Bourbonne-les-Bains was about a period of about maybe
    two months.
    And Alencon was a period of approximately,
    I would say, a year.
    Now, during all this time, it's about a year
    and a half, almost two years.
    Yes.
    Did you have contact with your father as well as your mother?
    Yes.
    During that period of time, there was a idea
    that my mother and my grandmother
    would be able to leave Germany by way of Russia.
    Trans-Siberian?
    Trans-Siberian, but that kind of didn't work out.
    And in due time, it so happened that they went by way of France
    through Paris.
    And my aunt had a pass to go to Paris
    and happened to see them in Paris, even though I did not.
    And from there, they went to Portugal, and from there
    to America.
    So at that point, I knew that they were safe.
    OK.
    You mentioned that your aunt had a pass.
    She needed a pass to go from Alencon to--
    Oh, yes.
    At that time, you needed passes wherever you went because this
    was already in times of war.
    This was already occupied?
    No.
    No, Paris was not occupied.
    OK.
    All right.
    But you did need-- you needed a pass then for--
    I might have the time frame somewhat mixed up,
    but it was a fact that my mother and my grandmother
    did go from Germany to France through Paris, where
    my aunt saw them.
    Now, when your mother and grandmother got the visa,
    you had, I take it--
    I'm making the assumption that you had applied,
    the four of you, for the visa?
    Yes.
    They only were able to get two at that time?
    Well, first of all, since my father at that time
    was already in--
    Holland.
    --out, that possibility was not open to him at the time
    because he was illegally in another country.
    And since I was already in France,
    that possibility, through some legal technicalities,
    also was not possible.
    But later on, it became possible that I
    was able to get the visa from the United States.
    But this is somewhat later.
    But at that time, when your mother and grandmother went,
    that was not possible for you to join them?
    No, because that was a different set-up for some reason.
    And they were able to go at that time, yes.
    And they went at night, when nobody knew that they went.
    They went also.
    They didn't leave any message for fear
    of that they might be stopped.
    Be stopped by the German authorities, you mean?
    Yes.
    I should backtrack.
    Just one question occurred to me.
    When your father left, did he just--
    what did he do about his business?
    Nothing.
    He just left?
    Period.
    OK.
    All right.
    The day that your mother and grandmother came through Paris
    and your aunt went to see them, I
    would guess that you would have very much liked to have gone--
    Yes, naturally.
    --to Paris.
    It was out of the question?
    That's right.
    She was at the time, if I remember correctly,
    a French citizen at that time.
    And my aunt at the time also was able to cut some red tape
    with the authorities because some people could be bribed.
    And therefore, she was able to go.
    Was this your mother's sister?
    No, this was my mother's brother's wife.
    Had they set up a haberdashery store in Alencon?
    Yes.
    OK.
    When your aunt came home that night
    and you found out that your mother and grandmother were
    on their way to America, from then on, France--
    I'm just trying to get the time frame.
    France became occupied after that?
    Yes, but I would rather relate the story of my being in France
    from Alencon on.
    Oh.
    I think that would be the best way to go about it.
    OK.
    All right.
    Well, anyway, my mother and my grandmother then, at that time,
    I knew were safe in America, received letters from them,
    wrote them letters.
    I was still in Alencon at the time
    when my father was in this camp in Southern France.
    He had written to you then from Récébédou?
    Yes, Récébédou in southern part of France, yes.
    OK.
    [AUDIO OUT]
    Well, subsequently, events became somewhat traumatic
    in France.
    I must-- I couldn't, as I said before, within the time
    frame of this interview.
    I cannot tell you everything about what happened.
    But I try to give you the highlights.
    My aunt and uncle had also a child.
    And also, my aunt's parents were in France as well.
    And they lived close by.
    And then came the time--
    I couldn't tell you the exact time frame,
    but I can tell you this, that there came a time when my--
    the parents, especially the father of my aunt,
    was interned in France.
    And naturally, there were the associated heartaches with it.
    And my aunt was a rather active person.
    And she was able to, as I said, before cut some red tapes,
    and try to visit them, and have them
    released as well in France.
    You say them.
    That's-- that is my--
    her aunt's-- my aunt's parents, as well as, for a period
    of time, my uncle was interned in France.
    This is--
    I must say, my aunt became a French citizen,
    whereas my uncle did not.
    OK.
    So he was--
    OK?
    So that was the explanation for the fact
    that my uncle was interned as well.
    Because he now became an alien in France because he
    was still German.
    So my uncle was interned.
    And my aunt was able to release him.
    And we were living for a while together in--
    as I said, for about a year in [FRENCH] France,
    where we made a relatively normal living.
    And at that point, Germany overran Holland, Belgium.
    And the debacle in France began.
    And I was one of the thousands-- millions,
    if necessary that went down the roads of France during the--
    you've seen movies of it, of the Germans following
    the masses of people.
    And that's when we evacuated.
    That's when we left [FRENCH],, going south, going where--
    we had not really a specific goal.
    It was just to get away from--
    The Germans.
    --from the Germans.
    And the thing that is remarkable or--
    about what happened in France is that during that period,
    most of the roads in France were absolutely
    clogged by civilians.
    So one of the reasons why the Germans were
    able to win that fast was because the French Army really
    had no way of getting anyplace fast because the roads
    were clogged by civilians.
    Right.
    And we made out to meet at a certain point.
    The we being yourself and your aunt?
    That is, my uncle at the time was someplace else.
    I don't quite remember all different instances,
    although I could find out.
    My aunt, who is still living in California,
    she has a fantastic memory in addition to her diaries,
    which would help her.
    But at the time, I remember specifically
    the clogged roads and that my--
    at the time, my aunt was together with her girl.
    The parents were in a different car.
    We were three cars going south.
    I was in the car with a befriended family.
    My aunt and the girl was in a different car.
    And the parents were in a different car.
    As it is, in times of war and of turmoil,
    things go different than you think.
    And there came a point during that period
    where I didn't know where anybody else was.
    And neither did anybody else know from each other,
    meaning that I was by myself with this befriended family.
    My aunt and girl were someplace else.
    My uncle was someplace else.
    The parents were somehow separated of my aunt so that
    the whole family unit--
    nobody knew for several months where each other one was,
    to do through all different kinds of circumstances.
    And at the time, I was in the so-called occupied zone.
    At the time, there was an occupied and unoccupied zone.
    And when we knew, subsequently, where the unoccupied zone was--
    as a matter of fact, when we were still
    in the occupied zone, we--
    the Germans overtook us.
    I remember the German Army and et cetera.
    But they didn't bother us at the time.
    But naturally, we knew that it wasn't
    going to last for very long because things
    were in a turmoil.
    That must have been a very frightening experience
    to be all cut off--
    Oh, yes.
    --from one another.
    Yes.
    As I said, the best I can describe
    it was very traumatic for all of us.
    I mean, looking back to it, it's like a bad dream.
    You don't think this thing can happen.
    You don't think this is real.
    This is something.
    This is-- but anyway, we went--
    this befriended family, again, went at night,
    including myself, through a road which was still not
    guarded properly into the unoccupied zone.
    And where we finally landed up was
    a city called Limoges, which you probably heard of.
    You mentioned that you had a car during this time.
    Yes.
    You were going by car.
    Yes.
    Were you able-- all this happened so quickly.
    Was there any problem as to--
    I mean, where did you sleep?
    How did you eat?
    Somehow, we managed during that time.
    Somehow, we-- as a matter of--
    How did you?
    I mean, did you go to farmhouses?
    I don't quite remember all the instances.
    But where we finally did land up happened
    to have been the farmhouse when we were still
    in the occupied zone.
    And in due time, that farmhouse was taken over by, I believe,
    some German officers.
    And when we knew that, that was another incentive for us
    to be one-- try to be one step ahead of them.
    When the German officers came there,
    did they have any idea that you spoke German or were German?
    No, no, because the befriended family, they--
    while they were Jewish, they were originally French Jews.
    Yes.
    And so, as I said before, we went
    to the city called Limoges, where I was with this family.
    And the first link in the chain that brought us back together
    again, all of the whole family unit, as I said,
    the first link of that chain was I was walking in Limoges
    on the street, when somebody tapped me on the shoulder
    and said, hello, Gunther, which happened to have been my uncle.
    That must have been an incredible moment.
    I mean, like truth is stranger than fiction.
    And of course, this is something else distinctly in my mind.
    But to go back to my uncle who tapped me on the shoulder,
    subsequently, I understood that he was with the English Army.
    He was part of a unit of--
    other than English persons, who were
    trying to help the English in doing whatever they could to--
    against the Germans.
    However, when the time came at the Dunkirk fiasco--
    or victory, if you could call it,
    by the fact that they saved so many lives,
    they are going back to England, the English and French
    had one thing to say to the people that tried to help.
    And they wanted to go with them, naturally, to England.
    In French, it's called [FRENCH],, in German, [GERMAN]..
    And I guess, in English, you could
    call it just take care of yourself
    and go wherever you want to go.
    So they didn't want to--
    they did not want to take him with them.
    Now, this was the uncle that you had lived with in [PLACE NAME]??
    That's correct.
    And he had somehow made contact with this English unit
    or whatever?
    Yes.
    All right.
    So now, he met you in Limoges.
    That's correct.
    Was he there with his family?
    No.
    He was by himself.
    He was just by himself.
    OK.
    He somehow, from Dunkirk, made his way
    to that particular town, somehow.
    How he got to Dunkirk is--
    that was during the time after you had split up?
    Yes, yes.
    OK.
    Now, while you were living in Limoges, what was living
    there like for you in terms of what was your daily routine?
    Living in Limoges was, if you remember, I told you,
    it was the unoccupied zone at the time, which
    later on, also became occupied.
    This was a different time frame again.
    But at the time, it was unoccupied.
    And the living there was relatively normal.
    I went to school there, as a matter of fact.
    This is the reason why I'm in the field that I am now.
    Living there, there was a school called ORT--
    ORT.
    And there were three different things that we could study.
    And one of the things was electronics.
    And this is what I had taken up at that particular school
    in Limoges.
    And I stayed with that particular field.
    Why did you go to an ORT school as opposed
    to a regular school in Limoges?
    Because at the time, I was 16 years old, close to 16,
    or around there.
    Yes.
    And I felt that the time comes that I try to take up something
    with which to make a living.
    Speaking of that, you had been living
    with this befriended family in Limoges.
    Yes.
    So again how did you all earn a living
    during that-- how long were you in Limoges,
    about a year and a half?
    In Limoges, I would say I was about a year or so,
    maybe a little less than that.
    How did you--
    Because my total time in France was three years.
    Right, OK.
    Because when I came here, I was 16 years old.
    For that year in France, how did you try and earn a living?
    I had helped my uncle and aunt in the store in Strasbourg.
    I helped them in Limoges.
    As a matter of fact, I went to some other rather wealthy
    people who had a business in sacks--
    potato sacks, grain sacks, rice, whatever.
    And I was there to support them and help
    in that way to make a living.
    To make a living, yeah.
    You mentioned your aunt too.
    Did she come to Limoges?
    My aunt, subsequently, also came to Limoges so that
    my the parents of my aunt, through circumstances that I
    don't remember, but somehow, as if by some miracle,
    between all of that happening-- because you have to have lived
    through this kind of a turmoil in France to realize that this
    was a miracle that five people--
    it wasn't that much of a miracle of five people
    to be spread apart.
    But it was a miracle for five people
    to come back together again.
    What were conditions in France?
    Were the-- food, I assume, was rather scarce because of the--
    Excuse me.
    Go ahead.
    Conditions in France were quite bad.
    You had to get up 6 o'clock in the morning
    to stand in line for three hours to get a half a loaf of bread.
    Butter at that time was unheard of, it was margarine.
    And then it wasn't a pound or half a pound,
    it was in an eighth of a pound that
    had to last for maybe three days for a family of five persons.
    So everything was rationed.
    There was very little fresh fruit.
    And no matter, any forms of life-sustaining items
    were in scarcity.
    And what also sticks in my mind quite a bit is that whatever
    you had for life-sustaining items,
    you had to stand in line--
    not for 15 minutes, not for an hour, but for hours.
    And then when you finally did get it, you had ration coupons.
    And somehow, we were managing, despite it all.
    You mentioned, if you had ration cards,
    you were also registered as living in Limoges.
    Yes, yes, yes.
    Right?
    Was that a problem as far as being--
    not being a citizen?
    No.
    No, it was not a problem because a lot of people
    were in the same shoes that we were at the time.
    Because you have to visualize that
    the southern part of France was now
    inundated with all kinds of people,
    with refugees, with people which, for their own reasons,
    wanted to get away.
    And so that there was a--
    quite a sorted population in the southern part of France
    at that time.
    You-- at this-- during this whole period,
    you were still in contact with your father?
    During the time, that this major debacle took place,
    I was not in contact with my father due to the fact
    that the mail and everything else was an impossibility.
    However, when we were in Limoges,
    I again was in contact with my father, who at the time,
    still was in the same camp.
    What happened to your father from [FRENCH],,
    as far as you know?
    Well, this is now a later time period.
    Eventually, got my visa, and I came to the United States.
    How did you get the visa?
    I mean, how-- did you go about applying for it from Limoges?
    Well, yes.
    Finally, I did get my visa.
    But the remarkable story on that is that there, the time frame
    is important.
    When I was-- when I did get the visa,
    it was something like two or three
    weeks before Pearl Harbor, the incidence of Japanese bombing.
    And there were two ships berthed in Marseille,
    France reserved for the purpose of having
    people go that were supposed to go to America
    have a seat on them.
    And it so happened that I--
    there were 300 persons waiting for 15 seats that
    were left on the second-to-last ship
    to leave France for the duration of the time
    that America went into the war.
    And 15-- I was one of the 15 of 300
    that got a seat on one of the boats leaving France.
    How did you arrange that?
    Luck, I guess luck.
    And naturally, the boat was somewhat overloaded.
    And we went to-- from there to Oran, Africa.
    We went through Africa to Casablanca.
    From Casablanca, we went to Cuba, from Cuba to America.
    Because at that time, the reason why
    we went in this roundabout way is already,
    there was a danger of U-boats at the time.
    And so I can consider myself very lucky the way it did
    happen finally.
    On the day that you heard that you had gotten the visa,
    how did you feel?
    Oh, I felt great.
    Yes.
    Because it meant to go to America and to be
    rejoined with at least part of my family.
    On the other hand, I had mixed feelings
    because I knew my father was still in the camp.
    But to come back to my father, I did go to America.
    And I arrived in America two weeks after Pearl Harbor.
    And as I said, there was only one more boat after that.
    And everything else was cut off for the war years.
    From-- there was no evacuation from France possible.
    Because by then, subsequently, later on, this is--
    my aunt and my uncle still were in France.
    And my-- the parents also still were in France.
    And my uncle, subsequently, again
    had to hide because at that point,
    Germany occupied the whole of France.
    How long before Germany occupied Limoges did you leave?
    Oh, I guess, I would say, probably three,
    four months or so.
    While you were in Limoges, did you
    realize that the unoccupied state was tentative?
    Did you think it was tentative?
    Well, let's put it--
    let me put it to you this way, the human spirit
    always hopes for the best.
    And that's the time--
    that's-- you-- at any given moment, you hope for the best.
    And you somehow like to believe that wishful thinking.
    And this is one way to survive.
    Who took you to Marseille from Limoges?
    My uncle.
    He did-- he took you?
    Yes.
    When you boarded the boat in Marseille,
    you mentioned that it was kind of overcrowded.
    Yes.
    And was the trip to the United States pleasant?
    Yes, it was pleasant because of the expectations
    to be reunited, naturally, when you landed in New York.
    Did your mother meet you at the boat?
    Yes.
    My mother, my uncle--
    several uncles-- and naturally, it was a very nice reunion.
    There's one thing that sticks in my mind.
    I went off the boat to meet them, say hello.
    And coming back to where I had my baggage, a very
    valuable blanket, a camel hair blanket was stolen right there.
    That was my--
    Out of the suitcase?
    No, it was on the suitcase.
    And since I was kind of taught and since I believed
    in trying to watch my belongings,
    I ran back into the boat, seeing if it was still there.
    But it was gone.
    It was too easy to take, huh?
    Yeah, right.
    Did you go-- had your mother had an apartment at that point?
    Yes.
    We were all living in--
    at 162nd Street, near Broadway.
    And of course, I have mentioned this a number of times
    when relating back to the period, that when I came
    is, naturally, the instance of going on the ferry,
    and seeing the Statue of Liberty,
    and having the sight of the lower portion of New York,
    you would think that, well, this is the land of milk and honey,
    and liberty, and et cetera.
    And unaware-- I remember, my uncle,
    he was coming back from the scarcities in France.
    I wasn't much of a smoker.
    I smoked once in a great while.
    So he gave me a cigarette.
    And I smoked a cigarette to the very end.
    And my uncle said, well, you don't do this in this country.
    You only smoke it half.
    And then you throw it away.
    And that somewhat impressed me, although I wasn't quite sure
    whether that was the thing to do.
    Going back, just-- you mentioned this uncle here
    in the United States meeting you.
    On that day that your uncle took you to the boat in France,
    did he have expectations, the uncle in France?
    Did he have the hopes of reuniting
    with you in the United States?
    Yes.
    They did, yes.
    Was he-- when you said goodbye that day, what was his mood?
    Well, his-- if I remember correctly,
    naturally, it was a hard thing to say goodbye
    because we have lived through a very trying period, which
    for me was like, this is the end.
    My trying period is over.
    Whereas for him, his future at that point was rather hazy.
    You say-- you said that your trying period was over.
    What were your expectations of New York, of the United States?
    I should put it differently.
    Well, it was like going from hell into heaven.
    But my expectations were limitless--
    I mean, boundless.
    When you came to this apartment in Washington Heights,
    how had your mother earned a living?
    All this time that she was alone with her mother?
    She was working in a neighboring restaurant as a cook.
    Had she done anything like this in Germany?
    No.
    No.
    She was active in a butcher store, selling, et cetera.
    What were your first impressions of their lifestyle in New York?
    It was a very cozy arrangement.
    We had one room.
    We had several rooms, but divided with different family
    members.
    And it was a rather--
    very happy family at the time.
    When you say several rooms, you mean one rented the apartment.
    And then you divided the rooms?
    Yes, that's correct.
    Your grandmother was there too?
    Still living, yes.
    OK.
    How did you proceed to try and earn a living in the beginning?
    Well, I remember writing my father, who was still
    in [FRENCH] at the time.
    I sometimes have a way of overblown sentences.
    But I had written a letter, saying in German, [GERMAN]..
    Do you understand?
    Yes.
    And so I said, well, I'm going to go out and shine shoes
    or whatever I can do to help earn a living.
    And it so happened that looking back, I--
    one of my first jobs were to bring out clothes
    from a member of the tabernacle called Frederick.
    I don't know if you remember them.
    And subsequently, I was working in a food market.
    I was working there.
    Bring out clothes, you mean-- was it a--
    Delivering clothes.
    It was delivering clothes.
    Was it a tailor?
    A cleaning store.
    OK.
    And the food market, and I was working as a busboy.
    How did you get these jobs?
    By asking the different areas around.
    And I felt that it's time for me to start helping the family
    and start to make a living.
    And did you speak English?
    No.
    As a matter of fact, at that time, I was in an age
    that I could have entered George Washington High School.
    And at the time, they said, well,
    he cannot speak a word in English.
    We cannot take him.
    And the same thing went for a junior high school.
    And I finally ended up--
    I was 16 at the time.
    I landed up with children seven and eight years old
    in a public school in a class for new Americans.
    But most of the children were seven, eight, nine years old.
    That must have been awful.
    It was awful.
    But I felt comfortable knowing that in no time at all,
    I would know enough to speak, which I subsequently
    did, within three months, to master
    the language enough that I could enter a high school, which
    I did at the Samuel Gompers Vocational High School
    in the Bronx, where I continued my studies in electronics.
    I see.
    Did you-- after this time in the school to learn English,
    did you want to go to Samuel Gompers?
    Or did you want to go to George Washington?
    Or was there a choice?
    Well, I think, after I was able to speak
    a relatively intelligible English,
    I probably could have had the choice.
    But I felt that I wanted to right away enter
    into something that would be more
    towards making a living, which I felt was
    the more practical thing to do.
    You meant-- you remembered the electronics from the art school
    in Limoges.
    Oh, yeah, sure.
    Sure.
    That was what you wanted to do.
    Yes.
    I became hooked.
    When you left Samuel Gompers, how
    did you gain your first opportunity in electronics?
    Well, the history of my studying is rather fragmented.
    I couldn't finish my studies in Germany.
    I couldn't finish my studies in France.
    And again, here, I was in--
    when I went to Samuel Gompers Vocational High School,
    I jumped grades from the first grade into the third grade,
    from the third grade into the fifth.
    Because as I gained more knowledge and mastery
    of the English language, the teachers
    realized that I wasn't really in my proper grade.
    And I possibly could have gotten into the seventh, which
    at this time was interrupted due to the fact
    that I went into the Navy.
    Right.
    OK.
    Hold on just a second.
    Let me backtrack for a minute.
    When you went to Samuel Gompers, one thought
    occurs to me-- that was not the neighborhood high school.
    So you were more with American kids
    than with German Jewish refugee kids, as in George Washington.
    Yes.
    Did you-- was-- did you find that difficult at all
    in being with mostly Americans?
    No.
    Did they realize that you were of German background?
    I suppose so, but it didn't make itself felt in any way.
    They didn't make you to feel as--
    I used the word as a refugee or as a German?
    No, although I remember one time, when I went--
    that was before I had a somewhat mastery
    of the English language.
    That was before.
    But I was able to speak somewhat fragmented.
    I was in a shoe store.
    And I recall, for some reason, which I don't remember,
    this woman said something to me about being a quote "refugee"
    and all the connotations that it had with it at the time.
    And I remember, with as little English as I knew,
    I gave her a piece of my mind, which
    I felt I was very able to do at that time.
    When you say all the connotations
    that went with refugee, what does that mean?
    What did it mean?
    Undesirable, in the case of whoever was using that word--
    somebody undesirable that was not invited into the community.
    Today, if we-- if our kids would have to go through some
    of the experiences that we're talking about now--
    in Germany, you're undesirable because you're a Jew,
    in France, you're undesirable because you're a German,
    in the United States, you're undesirable because you're
    a refugee--
    Yes.
    --that's pretty hard to take after a while, in terms of it--
    in terms of your kids, if you had
    to think of them going through that.
    Well, I tried to tell my girls of some of the events that
    had happened, but not in the way-- come here,
    I want to tell you something.
    I tried to tell them in a way of a--
    during the course of something that is just
    happening and casually relating to them of what it was
    in the times past to be a Jew.
    And I'm sure they got the message.
    And this being just here this morning,
    I feel that by having this interview,
    I probably am doing something better
    having this interview here than being
    in a synagogue discussing it.
    OK.
    In terms of-- you mentioned, too, that when you went from--
    when you were in Gompers in the seventh term,
    you got your notice from-- your greetings note.
    Yes, yes.
    You were only here a couple of--
    Two years.
    Was it two years?
    Two years, yes.
    How did you feel when you were drafted?
    Well, this was another episode that was rather funny,
    as it turned out.
    At the time, the enlisted people,
    the people that were drafted, had
    to go to the Grand Central Station.
    And you go through a routine of processing.
    And there were two tables left that you had to go through.
    And the table before the last table,
    I was asked, well, in what branch of the service
    would you like to go?
    And I said, well, I like to go into the Army Signal Corps
    because I felt that was the closest thing to my chosen
    field.
    Oh, I said, always, I said--
    I've said to myself, oh, that's great.
    And then in the last table that you went through,
    he says, well, what branch of--
    what-- yeah, what branch of the service?
    I said-- and I said, in the army.
    Oh, no, what would you--
    I'm sorry, where would you like to go?
    What theater of war would you like to go?
    I say, well, I would like to go to Europe.
    Because I had every reason to go to Europe.
    And so the last table, he said, well,
    you're in the United States Navy.
    And I say, what?
    Here, you asked me where I like to go.
    And you say, I'm in the Navy.
    I said, what branch is in the-- what--
    oh, you're in the Seabees.
    I said, what's the Seabees?
    I said, I wanted to go in the Army Signal Corps.
    He says, the Seabees are something like the Army Signal
    Corps.
    OK, I'll take the Seabees, although I
    had no choice over it.
    Why--
    PS, I did not go to Europe.
    I went to the Pacific area.
    Why did you want to go back to Europe?
    Well, since it was a matter of more--
    closer relationship with the-- that particular war theater
    than to the Asiatic theater, which was--
    which meant in the Japanese area, I felt more--
    I had a reason to be in that area than there.
    So that's why I chose Germany--
    I mean, to chose Europe.
    Did you feel at all that--
    And I felt that if I had to shoot at anybody,
    if necessary, I'd rather shoot somebody--
    a German rather than a Japanese.
    OK.
    Understandable.
    When you were drafted, this must have been particularly hard,
    in a way, on your mother.
    I mean, she had said goodbye once.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    And to say goodbye again--
    Yes, this is true.
    But in the time frame that we're talking about now,
    this was 1943.
    And I must go come back a little earlier
    and say the history of what happened to my father.
    I did write several letters when I was still here.
    And then I did not hear from him anymore.
    And subsequently, the indirect news that I received from him
    is because my aunt, and uncle, and family
    that were living in France came to the United States
    and gave me some correspondence that he still
    wrote from that particular camp in southern part of France.
    And thereby, I had a lot of more different news and things
    how my father felt. He was a rather very good writer
    of cards and letters.
    When you say how your father felt,
    did he express in those letters his feelings?
    He was very literate in all sorts of ways.
    And now, more so than ever, rereading some of the letters--
    as you grow older, you read more into it
    and understand it more so of what things were at the time.
    Even when you're 18, or 19, or 20 years old,
    your comprehension, and your understanding,
    and your feelings are different when you're 40, or 45, or 50.
    And anyway, I-- since I didn't hear from him anymore,
    my aunt brought the news that they didn't know either
    of what had happened to him.
    And of course, it was assumed that he died.
    Where, we don't know, how we didn't know.
    She mentioned something about trucks
    that went north and a lot of people
    that never arrived at the--
    wherever they were going to go.
    You never were able to get word through the Red Cross?
    Well, since that time, it was extremely
    painful to go into the matter of what happened to him.
    Because he knew what the eventual result
    was going to be anyway.
    And my family and I let things lie for a while.
    And it was only in the last six years--
    about six years ago is when I received through the--
    I was getting to be more interested again
    because it was something that--
    it was just too painful to reopen.
    But anyway, about six years ago, a friend of mine
    wrote to the Red Cross.
    And at that time, I received the news
    that I have papers to show that he went by train.
    And this is reinforced by what he
    wrote because I have his last card to me and to my family
    and friends with the train to Auschwitz, where he died.
    And I remember the last card he wrote,
    that it was a train with women, children, cattle train of all.
    He wrote the card from the train?
    I don't know if I want it later.
    When you-- before you went to Samuel Gompers High School,
    or during the time you were there,
    you had odd jobs in Washington Heights.
    Yes
    Is that-- you mentioned the shoe-- no,
    you mentioned the bringing out from Fredericks.
    Yes.
    And so on.
    Yes.
    And then you went to high school.
    And during the last term, you got your notice.
    Yes.
    OK.
    It wasn't-- I had several terms to go.
    But it was before I finished my studies.
    That's what I meant.
    OK.
    So you found yourself in the Seabees.
    Yes.
    OK.
    Typical army aplomb.
    Yes.
    OK.
    When you did-- did you go overseas?
    You mentioned it.
    Yes.
    Right away, I have to recall something that has happened.
    At the time, it--
    you had a five-year wait to become an American citizen,
    I believe.
    Right.
    However, the-- I was in the Navy about three months, or four--
    no, it was more than that.
    It was about six months.
    Anyway, it doesn't matter.
    And so I was in the country for about two and a half years.
    And when you had to go overseas, at the time,
    there was a law that you had to be an American citizen.
    And naturally, I was looking forward
    to becoming an American citizen, except I
    didn't know that I was going to be
    an American citizen that soon because there was
    one day that they took all the aliens of my company,
    or several other companies, and we
    went-- we were stationed near San Francisco.
    We went to San Francisco to United States District Court.
    And we were really boarding up, and studying
    about all the questions, and about the presidents,
    and the States, and whatever, Constitution.
    And so we were rather very surprised.
    We were lining up in front of the judge.
    And when the judge said, well--
    he said, well, I know what--
    you know what you're here for.
    And you probably studied for this very well.
    So I will not bother you with that.
    And the mere fact that you are in the service
    and that you will be going overseas
    is good enough for me to grant you American citizenship.
    And before you know it, the whole thing was over.
    And you were American citizen right there and then.
    Did you go to this court with other German Jewish boys
    mostly?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Were there many in your company?
    I would say, proportionately, yes.
    Were you shipped overseas with them too?
    Yes, to Hawaii.
    Did you-- the reason I ask that is did you
    tend to stick together?
    Or did you socialize with mostly the other guys?
    Well, we had a tendency of getting together.
    But there was no distinct effort made to just stick
    to our crowd, so to speak.
    Because in the real sense of the word, it was--
    if I want to digress slightly--
    and at this point, I can say, of what
    is most wrong with America, if I were to say it in one word,
    I'd say it is irresponsibility.
    I could explain that a little bit further and maybe later on.
    And then, again, what is most right with America,
    I would say, it is freedom.
    And if you wanted to taste freedom, even unconsciously,
    as somebody who has come through something like that
    is to intermingle with as many groups as possible
    and to understand other groups of people.
    And when I was in the service, this is exactly what I did.
    And this is exactly what others did
    to understand this great country we call America.
    You mentioned the word irresponsibility.
    You said, we could come back to it later.
    Yes.
    But in what way did that show itself then?
    At that time, I would not have said what I am saying now,
    this word irresponsibility.
    I am saying through the 35 or some-odd years
    that I am living in this country.
    And I could elaborate.
    And now, I'm-- what I'm saying now, also,
    you have to understand in the context of this.
    I have not lived in any other country.
    And this may very well be the case
    in other countries as well.
    This may apply for other countries as well.
    But I can only talk from knowledge, firsthand experience
    of this country.
    Countries as you knew them 30 years ago
    or how I perceive them, people in general
    were very responsible.
    People in general here are responsible.
    But ingrained in it is a irresponsibility
    in certain areas of government.
    There is a irresponsibility in throwing paper on the street.
    There is a irresponsibility in city government.
    There is irresponsibility as far as some aspects of unionism
    is concerned and other areas.
    And to be responsible, especially
    in the areas of, for example, your job--
    a job, at the time, meant to be absolutely
    responsible for what you do and take responsibility for it.
    However, here, it is not how much
    you can do for the job in a lot of areas,
    but how little you can do and get away with it,
    and not to be proud of the type of work that you are doing.
    Now, again, I'm saying this of what I know from here.
    This may very well be the case in different countries now.
    So this is not a put-down as such.
    But it is as I see it.
    But this is a way to weigh against the good sides
    of America.
    The good sides of America by far outweighs the negative sides.
    And if I-- if somebody would say,
    I should go back to Germany, I would rather
    have bread and water for the rest of my life in America
    than to go to Germany, with the possible exception of Israel,
    than any other country.
    Sometimes, somebody that you love, you can criticize.
    And you feel like you have a right
    to criticize because your love is only
    so much to grade a foreign.
    And this is the way I feel about America.
    It's a nice sentiment, in terms of--
    do you feel that America afforded you the opportunity
    that you hoped it would have?
    Yes.
    I say with certain limitations that if you put enough effort
    into what you're doing, you can get as far
    as your knowledge, your intelligence, and some
    of the breaks that can bring you.
    Of course, there's one thing that I know at this time,
    this is not the land of milk and honey.
    But it is the land of freedom.
    Again, certain special areas in the country, freedom
    is not as--
    is still a word--
    it's something that you would like to have
    in certain minority groups.
    But by and large, it's something that I can
    say this is what America is.
    Not the land of milk and honey.
    And when you first came here, you
    thought it probably would be the land of milk and honey.
    Why do you think that--
    what changed your mind?
    Changed your mind it's probably a bad phrase.
    But what changed that opinion?
    Well, I think, in order to make a living and to advance,
    you have to put a lot of effort into it.
    The other countries in the world where
    you work five, six hours a day and make a living,
    naturally, the standard of living isn't as high.
    And you are not--
    within that context, you are-- you
    accept the standard of living in the country that you live in.
    And you're-- by and large are satisfied.
    But in this country, your standard of living is high.
    And to achieve a reasonable standard of living,
    you have to put out.
    And you have to spend long hours in general
    by the average person to obtain what you think
    is adequate for you in life.
    When you returned home from the CBs, from the army,
    how did you get back into the electronics business?
    Well, when you're in electronics,
    I think it's probably, for a lot of people,
    like a love affair, which you try
    to always enhance your knowledge because that's
    the state of the art.
    And you try to keep up with everything new.
    And so it was, even when I was in the service,
    that the closest thing to electronics that I got to
    was an electrical warehouse.
    And also, I went to a school in Honolulu,
    where they taught electronics-- electrical items.
    And when I went back here-- as a matter of fact,
    I had taken a high school equivalency test
    while I was still in the Navy, which at the time
    was accepted in every state except New York and California.
    I had passed that, naturally, with flying colors.
    But that didn't do me any good until after I
    went to the RCA Institute and I took a course there.
    And when I afterwards showed the completion of the course,
    I went to my former high school and
    where I received my high school diploma.
    And did you come back to live in Washington Heights?
    Yes.
    During-- again, how did you find your first job
    when you came back?
    Like millions of others, through the United States Employment
    Service.
    OK.
    And while you were-- what did you
    do with your free time for recreation?
    Well, I hung around with the neighboring groups and friends.
    Did you join any clubs or organizations?
    Yes.
    I joined the Tabernacle Youth Group at the time.
    And I have very fond memories of that period.
    Were your friends then mostly of the German Jewish group?
    At that time, I would say yes, since I was rather
    spending a lot of time of the group in the Tabernacle
    at that time.
    Yes.
    Would you say that your friends today
    are still more of the German Jewish group or more
    of the American?
    My friends today, most are of the German Jewish group, yes.
    Why do you think that has persisted?
    Well, I think it's probably more through circumstances
    rather than--
    the design rather than that I wouldn't look out
    for making friends with other persons.
    The friendships that I have now have been in existence
    for a long time.
    And you have a tendency to stick to old friendships, naturally.
    In your employment, you mentioned
    that you got the job through the United States Employment
    Service.
    Did you meet many Americans through your job?
    No, it was a rather short period that I was working there.
    And the reason why I had to leave is kind of noteworthy.
    This was shortly after the war.
    And the company was very nice and very cooperative.
    It happened to have been the--
    was something that you might be familiar with, Helene Curtis,
    is products for the beauty shop.
    And all throughout my subsequent life,
    I tried to stay within the--
    my field of endeavor.
    And I repaired hair dryers at the time.
    And the reason why I was laid off
    is because I had a job of somebody who left that company
    to be in the service.
    And he came back from the service.
    And it was the law at that time when you left at a certain job,
    you had the first priority when you come back
    to retain that same job.
    So I had to leave at that time.
    Oh, so this other serviceman came back?
    And got that-- the job that I had, yes.
    And from there on how did you proceed in electronics?
    Well, I had a number of other jobs.
    My history is rather fast to tell.
    I worked for a number of firms, including Emerson Electronics
    and Fisher Radio.
    And it was during a spell of inactivity for about three
    or four weeks that I was laid off because it was summertime,
    because they didn't have enough work for Emerson
    that my aunt, who lived with me in France, who now had
    a store in the Bronx, said to me, well,
    across the street from me--
    from her is a radio store which was going out of business.
    And I jokingly said, oh, well, maybe I buy the whole business.
    It turned out I did with a partner, who
    I had for a year and a half.
    I was in the same location for 21 years.
    And what made me close was rather--
    not that especially unique, which
    happened to a lot of stores, is that the landlord
    abandoned the building.
    And I went on vacation.
    And when I came back, the ceiling
    fell down because of the water leaks.
    And I did not, since that time, open up
    another store, although I felt I would want to.
    And I'm now working in New Jersey.
    You mentioned that you bought this store.
    Yes.
    You had been in the army.
    And you were only here two years before.
    Were you able to have enough capital to make the investment
    to buy it?
    Well, I must say, I was the proud possessor
    of $500, which was a great sum of money at that time.
    That was in 1948.
    And I borrowed some additional money,
    which I subsequently repaid.
    And I made a go of it.
    You mentioned that now, you're in New Jersey,
    you're employed in electronics.
    I'm employed in New Jersey, yes, in Bogen Electronics, which is
    a division of the Lear Siegler.
    I'm working in the engineering department.
    I just would like to come back, just for a moment,
    to your mother.
    During all this time, you mentioned
    that she was working in a restaurant in Washington
    Heights--
    Yes.
    --around 116th?
    Oren's Cafeteria.
    Which?
    Oren's Cafeteria.
    In looking back at--
    how would you say that your mother
    adjusted to living in America?
    She adjusted very well.
    And the prevailing attitude at the time
    was that, as opposed from some groups of people
    today that come to this country, to try
    to Americanize as fast as possible
    and to be within the mainstream of American life.
    And the idea was to be become a productive member
    and a contributing member of the American society and the--
    in the neighborhood that we lived in.
    In terms of her life, she probably had a better--
    a more comfortable life in Germany
    than she did, certainly in the beginning years--
    Absolutely.
    --here.
    Yes.
    Did that show itself in her--
    did you feel that about her, that she felt that?
    Did you--
    No.
    No, I did not.
    I did not because the freedom afforded here,
    the atmosphere was so much--
    how should I say--
    enhancing to one's being, then the gathering storm,
    as to say, that there was in Germany, yes.
    Did she miss some of the luxuries
    that perhaps she had in Germany?
    Well, some people-- this is a matter of individualism.
    Some people can't stop talking about, oh, it was so good then.
    We had this and we had that.
    And we were up that high.
    But in the case of my mother and my family,
    we were glad to be here.
    And we were not given to complaints.
    OK.
    I just want to go on to your children just for a second.
    Do you feel that you were a different parent
    than the parents of your children's
    American counterparts?
    Do you remember?
    Yes, that was hard.
    Naturally.
    Yes.
    How so?
    Well, it's simply a matter of--
    well, you bring to your children what
    your background brings to you.
    It's as simple as that.
    You're the-- your own life experiences are kind of--
    is transposed into what you give your children.
    Have your children ever pointed up to you
    that you were different parents than, let's say,
    their friends' parents?
    No, not really directly, but possibly indirectly they did,
    yes.
    Do you think of yourself today as more a part
    of the American mainstream or more a part of the German
    Jewish community in New York?
    That's a tough question.
    I consider myself more in the American mainstream, yes.
    OK.
    When you say it's a tough question, why do you say that?
    Because as I said, I like to do more
    within the Jewish community.
    And somehow, I did not put into action what I feel, which is--
    which I don't feel very good about.
    Happens in day to day.
    Right.
    But my interests are rather multifaceted.
    And like a lot of people, feel that you're American first
    and you're Jewish second.
    And sometimes, it's a hard thing to reconcile.
    And sometimes, you have mixed feelings about it,
    especially in the times that we live in,
    especially with Israel.
    And these kind of feelings, I think,
    probably will become more pronounced
    as it relates to Israel.
    Also, the parallel between that in Germany.
    Yes.
    It was very gratifying to me to know that several years ago,
    when the war started in Israel, that there
    were a lot of yeshiva boys going around in the area
    and collecting for Israel.
    And within no time at all, they collected thousands of dollars
    spontaneously.
    And this was a very gratifying thing to know,
    that something like this can happen in this country.
    In terms of-- you brought up something interesting.
    In terms of your children, do you
    think they think of themselves more as Americans?
    How should I put that?
    Do you think they think of themselves
    as Americans first, or Jewish first, or simultaneous?
    I don't really know.
    The reason I ask that is only because they
    don't have the same experience.
    That's right.
    I don't really know.
    I wouldn't want to say something that I am not really sure.
    I don't-- I think it's a hard question.
    I think it's a hard question for all of us, in terms of--
    I don't want people-- have you ever been back to Germany?
    No.
    I have not been.
    And I don't think, up until now, I
    could have brought myself to go back to Germany.
    However, I do intend to go to Germany
    one of those years for two reasons and two reasons only.
    And that is-- one is to visit the grave of my grandfather,
    who I mentioned briefly at almost
    the beginning of the interview.
    And the other thing is, hopefully, to go with my wife
    and to show her where I lived and, consequently, for myself
    to go where my wife was in Berlin
    and to get an idea of where she lived.
    But more so than that, much more than that,
    I'm looking forward to a visit to Israel,
    whenever the opportunity arises--
    comes up.
    OK.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Gerald Hirsch
    Interviewer
    Rosalyn Manowitz

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    3 sound cassettes (60 min.).

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The interview with Gerald Hirsch was conducted by Rosalyn Manowitz. Rosalyn Manowitz wrote an account of the experiences of survivors who were members of the Hebrew Tabernacle Congregation for distribution to its members. The interview was given to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on October 13, 1993.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:17:39
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn510616

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