Advanced Search

Learn About The Holocaust

Special Collections

My Saved Research

Login

Register

Help

Skip to main content

Print

Oral history interview with Cornelia Knottnerus

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1984.1.1.10 | RG Number: RG-50.157.0010

Search this record's additional resources, such as finding aids, documents, or transcripts.

No results match this search term.
Check spelling and try again.

results are loading

0 results found for “keyward”

    Oral history interview with Cornelia Knottnerus
    Transcript
    This is an interview with Cornelia Knottnerus,
    a rescuer from Holland.
    We would like to know what motivated you
    during the war to help those people, especially Jews.
    Mhm.
    Well, there were several reasons for it.
    I was raised in a very Christian family, where we grew up
    with the Old Testament stories and with the stories of Abraham
    and Jacob.
    And when the war started and we saw
    that all those horrible things were happening to the Jews,
    it was to us like they were touching God himself.
    And we had such a love for God's people
    that we could never be a part of this.
    And also I think I grew up in a family
    where we were very helpful.
    We lived in a small town where we still
    had neighbor duty, where neighbor helped neighbor.
    And if somebody died in the neighborhood, people would help
    or they were sick.
    And I don't think we made a big deal out of it.
    Mother used to say, we are in the world to help each other.
    And so it became an automatic thing,
    that if somebody was in need, we would help,
    and especially with the Jews, like I said before,
    we were raised with a deep love for God's people.
    And to us, it was like they were trying, God himself,
    to see you know what.
    And to us, it was shocking.
    So when my brother lived in another part of the country,
    and when he had those people for us,
    my parents didn't hesitate and take them in
    and loved them and nurtured them and took care of them.
    And also, my one brother who was in the police force,
    he was in the Navy when the war started.
    And then when the war was over, he automatically
    was brought into the police force,
    and they were forced to pick up the Jewish people, sometimes
    old people who had to be carried out
    on stretchers and small children who really couldn't hurt a fly.
    And so this whole police squad, this whole police force,
    there were about 10 men, they all said,
    no, it's our religious belief, and our conscience
    won't allow us to pick up those Jewish people.
    And they said, well, if you don't do it,
    you go to the concentration camp yourself.
    And so my brother spent two years in a concentration camp
    for refusing to arrest Jews.
    And he was one of the lucky ones.
    He came out alive after two years.
    And after he came back, skinny and bald and everything,
    he survived.
    He went right back in the underground
    and helped again, like blowing up railroad tracks,
    and the forces would drop weapons
    to close to where we were, and he would pick them up.
    And so he got right away in the [? force. ?]
    And the Jewish boy, he stayed with us,
    and we then had to go in our hiding ourselves.
    Because my dad worked for the railroad, and the quislings,
    there was a part, a small part of the Dutch people,
    they were on the German side, and they took over our house.
    And so this boy came along with us.
    We were then with 10 people in a small chicken coop.
    And he stayed with us, and he was liberated with us too.
    And he was just a wonderful boy.
    He was only 16, but he had to be a man.
    He had to grow up real fast.
    How this boy came to you?
    Well, through my brother.
    See, my brother had contacted us.
    And he lived in another part of the country,
    And He would contact us, and he would bring-- he
    was just one family member.
    His father survived too, but we got the boy then.
    That was a friend, a old friend or?
    No, we didn't know the people.
    No, see, and for safety reasons, the less you knew the better off
    you were.
    Because, see, we had a family, and we
    had to rehearse that we would not say anything.
    We didn't know.
    The less you knew the better off you were.
    So if people would-- if your house was ransacked
    or they would come and search your house,
    the less you knew the better off you were.
    You didn't the people, and you didn't know.
    Later on, of course, we met the father.
    And the father survived too, and the boy.
    But the girl we had, her father and mother did not survive.
    They were taken to a camp.
    Yes, and the girl, is she still alive?
    The girl?
    She is.
    She still lives in Holland, and she is married to a man.
    And his family-- he was forced to see his children being gassed
    in the concentration camp.
    And she married this man.
    And we still consider them a part of our family,
    and she does us too.
    And so then at one time we had a Dutch family
    who were helping Jews too but were betrayed.
    And this boy from the Dutch family, he
    stayed with us for a long, long time too.
    And his whole family was involved too,
    but they were betrayed.
    They had a Dutch Jewish family living
    under the floor of their house, and so they all
    had to escape real fast.
    And very often you had people like that too, who
    were involved with Jews themselves but were betrayed
    or something like that.
    And we had to hide them too, so it
    was just a real involved thing.
    So who was the main rescuer in your family?
    How old had you been?
    Well, see, I was only 13 when the war started.
    And I was 18 when the war ended.
    And my father and mother were--
    see, the whole family was involved.
    Of course, my father and mother were the main.
    If they wouldn't have done it, I'm
    sure we wouldn't have been a part of it too.
    We were too young.
    But my father and mother instilled in us right away
    this love for other people.
    And so we grew up with that, and then of course
    once we were involved, we had to do our share too.
    Once our house was ransacked and they threatened us
    that if we didn't say you know who was in the house.
    And we had had at that time two people,
    and we had a false closet.
    And so they knew there was something wrong there.
    And so they threatened us that if we didn't tell,
    then we would be taken to a concentration camp.
    And as young as we were, I don't know what it was.
    We didn't say anything.
    Did you understand it at that time?
    And they got away.
    They turned the house--
    Did your parents talk to you about it?
    Oh, yes.
    You knew?
    Oh, yes.
    We knew very well what was involved.
    What is going on?
    And they said even if we were taken away that we should not
    say anything.
    We should-- if my father and mother
    would be taken to a concentration camp,
    to just be brave and let them be taken and not say anything.
    No, we were very well aware what was going on.
    Where did you live, you say, in this place?
    Ermelo.
    It's E-R-M-E-L-O. And it was it's a small town.
    It's a small town?
    In Holland, yeah.
    And how did you--
    how did you rescue these people, taking them to your house
    and again shifting them to another safer place?
    Yeah.
    Sometimes we had to.
    Sometimes-- at one time, we had the one boy
    who was a Dutch boy who was involved with rescuing too.
    And there was another Dutch diver they used to call him.
    They used to dive.
    They were underground, so to speak.
    And when our house was ransacked,
    we had to dress them up as a couple in love,
    as a boy and a girl.
    And then we had to move them on because it wasn't safe for them.
    And so my brother in the other part of the country
    had to do the same.
    And so as long as nobody knew, they
    could stay with you for a long time.
    And then through the underground,
    with secret messages and codes, they taught you then
    that it wasn't safe, so then sometimes you
    had to move them on again you.
    But how do you remember the Germans when they came in
    and how all this rescue operation started?
    Well, I tell you what it was.
    The first year when the Germans occupied Holland,
    it wasn't as bad.
    It was bad, but first Holland was a rich country.
    We had lots of food and everything.
    And so they took everything away from us.
    We had to turn in the copper and the valuable things.
    And they ate us.
    They took everything because Germany had prepared for war
    a long time already.
    So first they took everything that they could use.
    Well, then it started in a small way.
    They picked up the men.
    They had to go working for the Germans.
    And it was just like a snowball.
    And once it started rolling, it couldn't stop.
    People were fighting back.
    So it started with a small way.
    The news had to be brought so you would bring papers around
    secretly, the paper, what was going on in the world.
    And we had radios hidden all over,
    and we would listen to the radio.
    And then we would know that this person was going to be arrested.
    So we would help him, blowing up railroad tracks.
    Then all those people who went underground,
    the divers and stuff, they all had to have coupons and money.
    So from somewhere we had to get money and coupons and false IDs
    to those people so that they could keep on living.
    And so and then in '43, '44, that's
    really '42 when they started really getting meaner.
    The meaner they got, the more intense the underground became.
    Did you get some Aryan papers for these people?
    Papers?
    They lived on Aryan papers?
    Did you get papers for them?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes, my father himself, because, see,
    he was working for the railroad, and they had to go on strike.
    So my father himself at one time when he had to go in a hospital
    had to have false IDs.
    Yeah, they had to have that.
    But we did not get them like the Jewish people.
    Yes.
    They wore the star and everything.
    And so of course, for them, if they looked very Jewish,
    it was just best to just keep them in hiding and stuff
    like that.
    Do you remember the names of these?
    Yes, the boy's name is Leo, Leo Vromen.
    And it's V of Victor again.
    And it's R-O-M-E-N. Leo Vromen.
    And the girl?
    And the girl is--
    I don't know her maiden name, because at that time like I say,
    we didn't remember all.
    But she is married to Van Maarsen.
    And it's Netty is her first name.
    And Netty is spelled N-E-T-T-Y And it is Van--
    that's V-A-N Maarsen, M-A-A-R-S-E-N.
    And she still lives in Holland.
    You have contact with her?
    Oh, yes.
    With both of them?
    Leo Vromen, once in a while he will let us know.
    I think he worked out of the country for a while too.
    And once in a while, we hear from him.
    But the girl, she lives in Holland,
    and yeah, we have contact with her all the time.
    In fact, she knows about this too,
    and we let her know that I was going here.
    Yes.
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    And she is the one who married the man,
    and he is a very nice man who was for years married,
    and like I said before, was forced to see his children being
    gassed.
    So as a child, you say you have been only 13 years old.
    When the war started.
    When the war started, when this rescue operation took place
    in place in 1943 you say?
    I would think.
    Wouldn't you think that it was then
    that they became more intense with arresting Jewish people?
    Yes.
    Yeah, at first they started you had to wear the yellow.
    The yellow star.
    Then they were not allowed to travel from the place.
    Yeah.
    They were not allowed.
    They were forced to wear the yellow star,
    and then they were-- so everybody was to recognize them.
    And then they weren't allowed to go into places.
    And it got from bad to worse.
    It was finally they were carried away, so to speak.
    And I've seen that myself because I've
    seen an old lady being carried out on a stretcher,
    was just too old to do anything.
    And so we saw it.
    Holland had a lot of Jewish people.
    And so--
    In this small place of Ermelo you
    say there were many Jewish people?
    Not too much in Ermelo, no.
    There were a lot of them came--
    Amsterdam had had many, many Jews.
    Amsterdam is known for a lot of Jews.
    How many Jews you had--
    But we had some.
    And I know we had and Professor Kohnstamm.
    He was a German professor, and he wore the star,
    and he went underground.
    Because when we were liberated in our town, he came.
    He had saved a bottle of champagne,
    and he came walking to the street,
    and one of the American soldiers put a piece of chocolate
    on his star and went that the war was over.
    It was all done, he came to the street, him and his family,
    they had survived.
    They were very well liked and very well known.
    How did you take the part--
    I mean, you as a small girl, how do you feel that?
    I mean, how much you did as a rescuer?
    I mean, how you accompanied your parents
    in this rescue operation?
    Well, I think we were proud.
    We were proud that the Dutch people and especially my family,
    that they stood up for injustice.
    And that we had to be a part of that, we were proud of that too.
    When my brother went into a camp for his principals,
    that he was brave enough to stand up
    and say I do not believe in this, that we as children
    were just as proud.
    And we did our share.
    You knew what you were doing.
    Yes, we knew very well what we were doing.
    And like I say, 13 years old, you're a child,
    but yet you're not a child.
    And then when all those things were
    happening so fast all around us, and we grew up real fast.
    And by the time we were 14 or 15,
    we weren't really children anymore.
    We had to do our part.
    When mother told us that this girl is coming and is Jewish
    and told us all about it, we were not
    to tell our friends that we had a Jewish girl,
    and we were not to speak out and everything.
    And so we were instructed.
    And so if we wouldn't have been a part of that--
    The girl.
    So we knew very well what was going on.
    And I think we were proud of our parents.
    So can you remember?
    I mean, what did you do during this time
    when this girl and boy were staying in your house together?
    What did you do?
    We were as a family, I think.
    And we learned, because we were Christians, and the Jewish girl
    especially who observed all her Jewish holidays
    and Jewish things, and we knew, like I
    say from the Old Testament stories, but for the rest,
    we knew.
    We learned from her, that she went in her room fasting
    for two or three days when she had to fast.
    And she did this and was all away from her family all
    by herself that I think we gave her the love as a sister.
    She was taken in in our family, and she
    became a part of our family except
    that we could not share her.
    Just she had to stay within the family.
    And it was the same with the boy.
    Because he was with us the last year of the war,
    when we stayed in this chicken coop,
    and we didn't have nothing.
    And so he shared.
    We went out to the farmers and picked up
    whatever we could get to eat.
    You know and we had an aunt and uncle staying with us.
    And another girl who had no parents,
    so we were all forced together.
    And we had no light, so we would put a bike upside down
    and had the light from the bike.
    And we would take turns reading.
    And I mean, like this boy, he was just a child.
    And he would sit there with his watch,
    and whoever's turn it was, he would say it's time now to stop,
    and it's somebody else's turn to turn the wheel from the bike.
    And I think as us as children, he impressed us.
    Here he was isolated from everything,
    and he was a Jewish boy.
    And so all the fear in his heart,
    but still he was so grown-up.
    And when my uncle and myself and him,
    we had to go way up north on our bikes to get food,
    and he went right along with us, which of course he was a child.
    But still he must have had that fear all the time.
    Did he talk to you about it?
    Yes.
    Oh, yes.
    Yeah.
    And his father, later on my sister--
    his father lived in another city,
    and my sister stayed with the father for a while.
    And his wife had gone somewhere else,
    so my sister was taking care of the father.
    And was he was very, very nervous.
    Of who?
    Of that Leo Vroman.
    Of the boy?
    Yeah.
    Did you get any contact with the family?
    I mean, this boy had contact with his parents?
    What's happened to his parents?
    No, Vromen.
    Let's see.
    Now, I can't remember the first name because, see,
    we knew so little.
    Yes.
    The less you knew, the safer it was.
    So my parents didn't say, well, the father--
    because for safety reason, a lot of things were--
    because if they ransacked your house
    and they found a lot of names, so you didn't keep no names.
    Someone reported you?
    Why they ransacked the house?
    Well, yeah.
    See, we had this false closet.
    And yeah, they reported us.
    And they took the fireplace away from the wall--
    Some of the neighbors saw the children there?
    I don't know who did that.
    Because, see, you didn't know, except my father worked
    for the railroad, and there was a German
    who always stood guard at the railroad,
    where my dad was working.
    And for some reason or another, he liked my father.
    And so my father said, well, when he comes to the door,
    I hope it is him.
    And so he came to the door, and he said, a Freund from Bahnhof.
    And my father says, well, that's a nice friend who comes
    in the middle of the night.
    And so when they went around, he was
    the one who took out the stick of that false closet,
    and nobody else was looking.
    And I don't know if he knew that there was something wrong,
    and right away he pushed that stick back in,
    and that was the chute to that false closet.
    And so then they left, and we had sort of a flat roof
    in the back of the house.
    And so they said-- well, they were talking amongst each other,
    and they said, well, we knew there was somebody here.
    And so then one of the soldiers, he said, well,
    maybe they could have jumped off the flat roof.
    And so we thought, well, if they believe that, we won't--
    So we said, well, they must have jumped off the flat roof.
    And so we all had a guard by our bed.
    Yeah.
    Your parents were religious, you say?
    Religious?
    Yes.
    Yes, my parents, we were raised in a reformed church,
    and we went to a Christian school.
    They were Protestants?
    Protestant school, yes.
    Did you go to the church?
    Oh, yeah.
    And we every morning, we started with a Bible story,
    and we had pictures all over the classroom.
    Well, we claimed Abraham, Jacob, and just like you do.
    They were--
    Did you take some of them, the children also?
    The boy and the girl with you?
    They prayed with us, you mean?
    No, to the church.
    No, they did not go with us to the church.
    No, no.
    They did not go.
    For safety reasons, they couldn't go, no.
    That they had the Aryan papers?
    Well, they kept-- especially the girl, she was very
    and still now, she keeps all her holidays.
    And so I think that we as children
    were so impressed by her that they were so, so far away
    from home, and they were--
    Did you get some connection--
    I mean contact with the parents with both
    of them, the girl and the boy?
    The girl's--
    The parents knew where the children are?
    Not at that time, no.
    Not at that time?
    No.
    And see, the parents of the girl,
    they were taken away already.
    They lived in a different city.
    And through my brother, we got this girl.
    And so the parents, and I think her sister, survived,
    survived too.
    But her parents, they died in a concentration camp.
    You say through your parents you knew the girl, but how?
    I mean, you did not talk about, I mean, how they come,
    how they come to your house.
    See, that was my brother.
    You see, OK, he had contact.
    He was in the underground.
    He does that?
    My brother.
    How many children you were in the family?
    We had six children in our family.
    Six children?
    Yeah.
    In our family.
    Two brothers and four girls.
    And so he would contact my dad, and he would say,
    now I have this Jewish girl here,
    and can you find a place for her?
    Or this Jewish boy?
    And so sometimes we had to find another address.
    See, at one time we had, oh, I would say four or five people
    who were in hiding.
    Well, we had a big family ourselves,
    so sometimes we had to send them on to other people.
    And so then at one time, my brother said to my dad,
    here I have this Jewish girl, and she needs a place to stay.
    And so we would take her then.
    If sometimes we lost a boy who had
    to go to another place for safety reasons,
    but we would right away take another one back again.
    So you really saved--
    I mean, like your whole family was rescuing.
    In full, yeah.
    Yes, like a network.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    They were operating.
    Right.
    And through the resistance and the resistance network--
    Right, through the underground.
    The family-- I mean the underground
    contacted the family, and then you
    did whatever it was proper for you to do.
    Right, yeah.
    That's how.
    See, we were all-- we didn't do anything like that on our own.
    And I know maybe some people did.
    There was even talk that maybe somebody did it for money.
    They knew this rich Jewish person and said,
    well, I'll take him in, and so he'll pay me.
    Now, in our case, that wasn't done.
    We did it through the safe channels,
    through the proper channels, through the underground channels
    that everybody was involved, and that if you contacted
    this person or he contacted you, that you knew what he was doing
    and where he was involved with.
    And that was all done as less papers or words as possible.
    So that for safety reason that everybody
    was protected who was within that organization.
    And once in a while, a leak would come out or they would
    very often--
    how do you call that now?
    Punish, interrogate people to the point
    like they would shine light in people's eyes for hours.
    They'd torture people.
    Some people broke down.
    Who is to judge?
    The Germans were mean.
    And so once in a while, they picked up a person
    from the underground, took him along, and they became weak,
    and they would say a few names.
    And so then of course it was it was very dangerous.
    You say that the children, how long they stayed with you?
    With your family.
    Well, I would say that each of them--
    close to a year, I imagine.
    The boy did anyway, because he stayed with us for--
    A year?
    Yeah, I imagine that they did.
    Yeah, because the boy was rescued with us.
    And we were-- let's see.
    It was in the fall that we went through that,
    and he was with us then already for a long time.
    And we were liberated in the spring.
    And that last year, the last winter of the war
    was the worst year.
    People--
    So they came very late.
    Yes.
    When he came to you.
    The girl earlier in the war.
    The girl earlier.
    How long the girl stayed there?
    Well, I imagine that she was there too like eight, eight,
    from eight months to a year.
    Until the liberation.
    No, she was not with the liberation to us.
    From us she went somewhere else, and I don't remember
    where because that was--
    What did you-- what did you--
    For safety reason.
    For safety.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    So you say that every time some different people came, but--
    Dutch and Jews.
    And sometimes just people who were involved also
    with the Dutch-- with the Jewish rescuing
    but were then betrayed themselves.
    And we had one family, Bosman was their name,
    and they had this Dutch--
    they had this Jewish family.
    And they had to go in hiding for the rest of the war,
    and they lived close to we were.
    They lived in a chicken coop too.
    And so they were involved also with the-- and so
    very often that they had to go in hiding themselves
    because they were risking their lives too.
    Yes.
    So your family rescued Jews and as well Dutch.
    Oh, yes, Dutch people too.
    Also.
    Yeah.
    So they were acting during the war time--
    In the underground.
    In the underground and in a rescue operation.
    Right.
    And my brother, see--
    Yes?
    When he came out of the camp--
    he came out of the camp, that was in, I think, '43, '44.
    And it was the last year of the war,
    and they was close to the liberation.
    So everything became more intense.
    And we were in hiding.
    And our house, the quislings took over our house.
    And while the quislings were in there, our house was bombed.
    And the whole back of the house was totally destroyed.
    Was-- yes?
    Was there anyone caught in this operation?
    Not in my--
    Someone from your family or someone from your--
    Friends.
    Rescuers?
    Oh, yeah, friends.
    Yeah.
    They were?
    Yeah, they were.
    We had one family was in our town,
    and there was the father and two sons.
    And they were-- three sons.
    They were taken out of the house and just killed right there.
    Yeah.
    So how would you summarize the whole thing?
    What was the main reason that you
    rescued, why you rescued these people whom you rescued?
    Well, I have a paper here, and I have written this from a book.
    And I have written some of it down,
    and I'll see if I can find it here.
    Corrie Ten Boom, her family was--
    she has written a book from--
    The Hiding Place.
    --where you had to rescue the other people.
    Well, in the age group between 18 and 55 or 60--
    What kind of people there?
    A lot of the men, they were students, sometimes
    students, university students, sometimes Dutch people who
    were involved with the rescue of Jewish people
    and were then betrayed themselves.
    Men in the age that they would have
    to go to Germany if they were caught, in the age--
    So how would you say it with just these few words?
    Who were these people?
    What kind of people whom you rescued, the non-Jewish?
    Well, Dutch people who were in danger.
    I wouldn't know.
    Persecuted by the Germans.
    Yeah, persecuted by the Germans.
    People persecuted by the Germans.
    Yeah.
    OK And these people were people whom
    you knew before the war or they were all strangers?
    Strangers, mostly.
    Yeah.
    Mostly strangers.
    Some of them we knew, but mostly strangers.
    Were there also persons who were close friends or acquaintances?
    Yeah, one.
    We had a relative stayed with us, a relative.
    OK.
    When you decided to rescue, was this a quick decision?
    Did you think about it for a long time
    or did that vary according to the occasion?
    I would say, like I mentioned before, it
    started in a small way.
    It was done little by little.
    And so eventually you went into it deeper and deeper.
    I don't think we thought about it.
    We didn't think it over.
    It was something-- what needed to be done at that time, we did.
    So it was a quick decision?
    Sometimes it was a quick decision, yeah.
    And you say also varied according--
    To the need at that time.
    Yeah.
    You got deeper involved.
    Yeah, you got deeper involved.
    When you made the decision to rescue,
    how much risk did you feel you were taking?
    Well, we knew we were taking big risks.
    We all knew that.
    Maybe--
    Great deal of risk?
    Some risk?
    Yeah, great risk.
    We knew that.
    Yeah.
    When you made the decision to rescue,
    how concerned were you about the risk you were taking?
    Were you very concerned, somehow concerned, not very concerned?
    We were concerned, but I think we knew
    that we were doing God's will.
    So I don't think that we were as fearful
    as we might have been if we didn't have that strength.
    So what would you say, somehow concerned?
    Yeah, somehow concerned.
    And you say that when you rescued,
    were you asked for help by the person whom you rescued, or you
    did offer the help or someone who was approaching you
    and asked for your help?
    Yeah, we did it mostly through the safety channels,
    through the underground.
    Yeah.
    Approached by the underground.
    Sometimes it was an impulse that somebody would say,
    now, I have this person, and I don't know what to do.
    If we knew this person who approached us,
    we would help too.
    We would not do it if we didn't know
    the person who approached us.
    Because that was too risky.
    So everywhere in the underground,
    mostly males or females?
    Oh, both.
    Male and female.
    Yes.
    In what month and year did your rescue activity first begin?
    Well, I would say that that really started right
    after the war in a small way.
    We were right away, I think, involve.
    when we were occupied by the Germans,
    we started right away in the underground with papers,
    listening to the radio.
    And then as the war went on, it became more involved
    all the time.
    '42?
    '43?
    Yes, all through the war years.
    But when it began?
    I would say it began right when we were occupied, in '41.
    '41.
    And which month?
    Well, I wouldn't know what month.
    OK.
    Let's say the last month of '40.
    Yeah, right in the beginning of the war.
    And how long did it continue?
    Right up till we were liberated.
    [LAUGHS]
    End of the war.
    That was April.
    We were in our town.
    We were liberated April the 17th in 1945.
    Our town was liberated.
    Was there a time when someone put a pressure on you
    to stop your rescue activities?
    Yes, people said that we were just stupid to do that.
    Who was the person who put this pressure on you?
    Well--
    What was your relationship with these people?
    Sometimes neighbors would say I don't know why you stick out
    your neck like that.
    Males, females?
    Yeah, both.
    Neighbors?
    Neighbors, yeah.
    Friends.
    So what did you do when they pressured you?
    Well, just the same.
    We said that we had to live with our conscience,
    and they had-- for not doing this,
    they would eventually have to live with their conscience.
    And it's just like we took a risk, they didn't take the risk.
    So in the end, I think us taking the risk could
    live with ourselves, even if it meant bad things.
    So you just continued.
    I mean, you just ignored their--
    Yes, yes.
    Ignored their sayings and pressure.
    Right.
    Yeah, we ignored it.
    And continued to risk.
    Right.
    Ignore those sayings.
    Did anyone praise your rescue activities during the war?
    I didn't get the--
    If anyone praised you for your rescue activities.
    Oh, praised, you mean?
    Praised.
    Yes, praised.
    After the war, yeah, I think people--
    During the war.
    Yeah, during the war too.
    People did because they knew that they could count on--
    Who were these people?
    What was your relationship to these people?
    Well, relatives.
    Relatives would and people in our church, our fellow believers
    from church.
    Men and women?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Did you receive any compensation for your rescue activities?
    No.
    Were you or the person whom you rescued arrested sometimes?
    Not that I know of.
    It could be maybe that some of the people
    we moved on to other places.
    But as far as I know, not the ones we helped.
    You say that you have contact with the person
    after the war whom you rescued?
    Yes.
    You still have the contact?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    She knows that I'm here now too.
    Yes.
    Yeah.
    Was there any time when you gave aid to someone
    and you regretted it?
    No.
    No.
    You always did it with the right way to the right person.
    Did you discuss your rescue activities
    with any members of your family?
    Yeah, we did it with each other, within our immediate family.
    Yeah.
    And what was their feeling?
    Well, we were pretty much all in one mind and one spirit,
    I would say.
    We all agreed what we were doing.
    Did you discuss your rescue activities
    with any of your friends?
    No, except our friends in the underground
    once we could know who could be trusted for sure.
    Otherwise, you didn't discuss anything with anybody.
    During the war, how many of your neighbors
    knew about your rescue activities?
    Would you say that almost all of them knew or some
    of or none of them?
    Some of them knew.
    Yeah, some of them knew.
    Did they approve or disapprove your rescue activities?
    I imagine that some of them approved and some of them
    disapproved.
    I think the ones who knew and knew our motives, they approved.
    And after the war, did your neighbors find out
    about your rescue activities?
    Yes.
    They approved or disapproved?
    They approved.
    Approved.
    Were you involved in bringing Nazis to justice after the war?
    Did we bring Nazis to justice?
    Yes.
    Yes?
    Yeah.
    Oh, yes.
    What way?
    Oh, the one I told you earlier, the Jewish professor
    who was standing there, and there
    was one man who had been a quisling all during the war.
    And he was standing along the road
    when we were liberated waving the Dutch flag.
    Well, he was just caught right now.
    I mean, they were dragged out.
    They were brought into a public place, and they were harassed.
    The girls who went out with the Germans, they were shaven bald.
    And we remembered each and every one of them
    who had been on the wrong side in our town.
    And I tell you, they didn't come off very good at all.
    And they still remember it now, some of them.
    Maybe you didn't understand my questions.
    To justice.
    The Nazis, the Nazis.
    Did you complain after the war?
    Did you bring them to justice?
    Yes.
    The Nazis.
    The Nazis?
    The German Nazis?
    As much as we could.
    We came into-- yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    I thought you meant the Dutch people who
    were on the Nazi side.
    No, no.
    The Nazis.
    The Nazis.
    Yeah, we did.
    With what way?
    Well, we--
    You reported them somewhere?
    Yes.
    If we knew, and we supported if they were brought
    to justice by somebody else.
    We supported their-- yeah.
    How much influence does your religion
    have on the way you live your life at the present time?
    Does it have a great deal of influence,
    some influence, not very much influence, or no influence
    at all?
    A great deal of influence.
    A great deal.
    Yeah.
    Are you involved in helping activities
    in the community, such as volunteer work with charities,
    school, churches, or anything of that sort?
    Church, yes.
    We are very involved with church work.
    What are you doing there?
    Well, I've held offices in our women's organization
    in the church, and we work for world relief and mission
    work and all that through the church,
    through the women's organization and the church.
    Have you spoken about your war experiences
    in any public places?
    Yes, I've done it in a school close to where I live,
    and in my church.
    When was it?
    Well, it was just since this spring.
    I went into a school.
    The town where we live now, we moved there about six years ago,
    and so they asked me through--
    This spring?
    Spring '84?
    Yeah, in '84 in a school.
    And in a church?
    In a church.
    Yeah, after I came back from California last year.
    The church and school was in your city?
    Yeah, in the city where I live.
    So both.
    They both were this area?
    Yeah.
    Do you have any children?
    Yes, I have three children, and we
    have three children of Arthur's, my husband's brother.
    Their parents died, and those three children
    are living with us.
    The oldest is in college, but the two other children
    are living with us.
    How much do your children know about your rescue activities?
    Well, we talk.
    We have talked a lot about that to them.
    Yes.
    Quite a bit, yeah?
    Do you think they were influenced in any way
    by what they know about your rescue activities?
    I hope so.
    Were they influenced?
    I hope so.
    How?
    Well, I think that we're trying to tell them
    that freedom is not to be taken for granted
    and that the Americans, we are so sure of everything
    and that this will never happen again,
    and we always have to be aware.
    What they think about you, the children?
    I think they're very proud of us.
    They're very proud of my parents and us that we did that.
    Yeah.
    And you think your children strongly approve your--
    or disapprove or somehow disapprove all these things?
    Well, they approved.
    Strongly or somehow?
    Well, it's hard for a child to understand what went on.
    But I would think that if they could realize--
    it's hard for them to place themselves in a world like that,
    but I would say they would approve strongly.
    Yes.
    And your present neighbors know about your rescue activities?
    Yes, some of them do.
    Yeah.
    And they love to hear about it, and they--
    yeah, I think they're very much--
    They approve?
    Yes.
    What would you tell today young people
    if a party with goals similar to those of Nazis came to power?
    If the Nazis came to power?
    If they would come, a party like the Nazis would come to power,
    what would you tell them?
    Oh, I would just tell them, look.
    Look all that happened.
    Look into history and let never anything like that happen again.
    To be very, very aware and learn from what has been done.
    Learn from the experience.
    Yes.
    The previous experiences.
    Mhm.
    Is there anything what came to your mind
    now what you would like to say, something more about your rescue
    activity?
    Well, I think like I said earlier, I
    think if we would have all worked more together, if more
    people would have been brave and more people would have--
    if we didn't have so many people who were on the wrong side,
    if all the people would have banded together,
    Jew and non-Jew alike, everyone, I
    think that we maybe would have been able to save more people.
    We had a lot of people who were not brave.
    So if we would have more people like you there, yes?
    Well, that would have been nice.
    I don't think that we set out to be heroes.
    We did it with God's strength.
    We couldn't have done it without his strength.
    And I think just to know that we were within his will,
    that we did his will that we can have a clear conscience
    and that we did it for that reason.
    You said that not everyone has this conscience.
    No, not everybody had this courage, I don't think.
    And I think we had the courage because God gave it to us.
    We couldn't have done it.
    Nobody can be a hero, I think.
    We didn't do it for that reason anyway,
    but nobody can do that without God's help.
    We are not very much without him.
    We would like to begin by asking some questions about you
    and your family during that time when you were growing up.
    First of all, in which country were you born?
    Holland.
    In which city?
    Ermelo.
    How do you spell it?
    E-R-M-E-L-O.
    E-R-- E-R?
    E-R-M-E-L-O.
    E-L-O. Where did you live for the longest period of time
    when you were growing up?
    Oh, about two weeks to--
    No, where.
    Vacation?
    No, no.
    Where did you live?
    In which city?
    In Ermelo.
    In Ermelo.
    Yeah.
    The city where you have been.
    Yes.
    Now, I would like you to look into this booklet
    and to answer me what you think.
    Did you live in a large city?
    Ours was called a village, I would say.
    Small city.
    Village?
    Village.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Again, how would you describe the neighborhood?
    I mean the neighbors when you were growing up?
    Were they very friendly and helpful,
    somehow friendly and helpful, not very friendly
    and helpful, and so on?
    Very friendly and helpful.
    What was the month and the year of your birth.
    The 14th of April, 1927.
    Now, we would like to make a list of the people who
    lived in your household during the time you were growing up.
    I don't need their names, just their relationship
    to you and their ages when you were 10 years old.
    So that would have been in 1937.
    1937.
    Would you like to think back in 1937, who were the people who
    were living in your house?
    My father and mother.
    Father, mother.
    And two brothers.
    Two brothers.
    And three sisters.
    One brother and another brother.
    And three sisters.
    Three sisters.
    Sister, sister, sister.
    In which country your father was born?
    In Holland.
    In Holland?
    Yes.
    And mother?
    Oh, everybody was born in Holland from my family.
    All of them.
    Yeah.
    Now, what was the age of your father
    when you were 10 years old?
    Yeah.
    My mother was 50.
    Because she was 40 when I was born.
    And my father was 47.
    He was a little younger than my mother.
    And your brother?
    My brother was about 12 years older than I was,
    the oldest one.
    The oldest.
    And let's see.
    My other brother was about--
    So 12 years older than you?
    Yeah.
    He was 22, yes?
    Yes, and the other one was 24.
    And my sister was--
    one of them is 10 years older than I am.
    So she was 20 at the time.
    And my sister--
    15 and one, 12.
    When I was 10.
    Yes.
    So that include everyone who was living
    in your household in 1937?
    Yes.
    All were born in Poland--
    I mean in Holland, you say?
    Yes.
    Do you remember what kind of work
    they did when you were 10 years old?
    Every person who was older than 12 years old.
    Oh--
    Your father, what was your father?
    My father worked for the railroad.
    My mother was a housewife.
    Railroad worker?
    Yeah, railroad worker.
    And mother was a housewife?
    Yes.
    Let's see.
    My brother.
    One brother?
    Yeah, 22.
    The brother of 22.
    Let's see.
    The other one was working.
    He was working--
    The 22?
    Yeah, the 22-- no, he was in the Navy.
    Yeah, he was in the Navy.
    In the Navy?
    In the Dutch Navy, yeah.
    And my other brother was working for an--
    yeah, drawing technical--
    I don't know how you would say that.
    Technical drawing
    Yeah, technical drawing.
    And my one sister.
    Let's see.
    How old were they now?
    My sister.
    They were--
    One was 20.
    She had a housekeeping job, 21-year-old.
    And the others went to school.
    The 15, student.
    Yes.
    Who was the head in the family?
    My father.
    The head of--
    He was the main wage earner?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Now please look on the page three.
    How would you describe the relationship
    between the members of your family when you were growing up?
    What would you say your family was--
    I would say we were very close, very close.
    Before-- again, page four.
    Before the war, was your family very well-off financially?
    Quite well-off and so on?
    I would say we were neither rich nor poor.
    Yes.
    That is--
    That's right?
    Very good.
    Yeah.
    That's fine.
    Before the war, was your family thought
    of as being upper class, middle class?
    I would say middle class.
    Yes.
    Who was the person in your household
    who had the most influence on you when
    you were being brought up?
    I would say my mother.
    Your mother.
    Now we are talking about your mother.
    What kind of work did she do?
    You say that when you have been growing up, housewife, you said?
    Yes.
    She was a housewife.
    Why she had an influence on me?
    I don't know.
    Yes.
    And us, as children, was of her cheerful Christianity.
    She was a very loving, helpful, joyful person,
    very, very always upbeat and helpful and cheerful.
    I'm sure she had her down days, too, but on the whole,
    she had a--
    sure.
    Did you mother attend elementary school?
    Yes.
    Gimnázium or high school?
    No, she was a nurse, was in nurse's training.
    Yes?
    Yes, my mother was a nurse.
    So she, we would call it probably as a apprentice.
    No, it's nursing.
    Yeah, nursing, nursing student.
    And do you say that she was a Protestant?
    Yes, we were Protestant.
    What do you think that, how much influence the religion had
    in the way she lived her life, a great deal?
    Yes, a very great deal, yeah.
    Now, you turn to page 7.
    That was page 6.
    Yeah, I know.
    Did she fear that people from other religion
    were very different from herself?
    Somewhat different, I would say.
    Somewhat different.
    Yeah.
    Did she ever talk about the Gypsies?
    The Gypsies?
    Yes.
    Yeah, we had a gypsy camp in our town.
    She talked?
    Yeah.
    What she said.
    What she tell you?
    What do you mean?
    About the Gypsies, what kind of people they are.
    Well, at that time, she told us we had to be careful for them
    because they stole a lot in our town.
    [LAUGHS] They did a lot of stealing,
    but she was fascinated by them, also.
    They were very colorful people, very different people,
    but they did do a lot of stealing in our town, chickens
    and whatever they could find.
    Would you say admired them?
    Yeah, she was fascinated, I would say, yeah,
    by the way of living.
    They were very musical and colorful.
    They looked colorful.
    Yeah.
    Did your mother ever talk to you about the Jews?
    Yes.
    And what did she tell you?
    Well, that they were God's people.
    They were God's chosen people, very special people.
    What else?
    Something more?
    Well, that they were good business people,
    that they were very, very supportive of one another.
    We had, in Amsterdam, they were very prosperous.
    The Jews were very prosperous in Amsterdam.
    They were very much see the Amsterdam as the diamond city,
    you know?
    They were very, very good business people.
    Yes.
    What do you think were the most important things
    you learned from your mother?
    Well, Mother had three loves, and they
    were her country and her royal family and her church.
    It means to love your country?
    Yes very, very much.
    And she was very stubborn about it.
    We used to tease her about it, how loyal she was.
    Love your country, love your.
    Church, and our royal family.
    She was very, very supportive.
    Now, please look at page 8 at the list
    of qualities on this page.
    And for each one, please tell me whether you feel you
    learn this quality from your mother.
    To be self-confident?
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    I would say she taught us that.
    To be independent?
    Yes, very definitely.
    Take responsibility?
    Yes.
    Take chances?
    Yes.
    Make your own decisions?
    Yes.
    To be adventurous?
    Yes.
    To help others?
    Yes.
    They are.
    On the page 9, looking at this list of qualities on page 9,
    please tell me whether you feel that when you grow up
    you were self-confident?
    Mm-hmm.
    Independent?
    Yes.
    Able to take responsibility?
    Yes.
    Willing to take chances?
    Yes.
    Able to make decisions?
    Yes.
    Adventurous?
    Yeah.
    Helpful of others.
    Yeah.
    During the Second World War, did you mother ever
    help Jews in any way?
    Yes.
    Now you can tell what you wanted to say.
    What kind of thing did she do to help Jews?
    Well, I think that she was, during the war,
    was the strength of our family.
    She was, I mean, Mother was there, you know?
    She even, if we didn't have much food,
    she made something out of nothing.
    And she was always there to encourage everybody.
    Tell what she did.
    A mother--
    What she did to help the Jews.
    To be a mother to them.
    I would say.
    The ones who stayed with us in the house,
    she was a mother to them and she was--
    She tried to be, a mother to them.
    Yes, the to them.
    But they were missing, and she was very caring and very loving
    to them and would literally have given her life, her own life
    to for them.
    Before the Second World War, was your mother
    a member of a political party?
    Yes.
    What was the name of the party?
    AR, Anti-Révolutionnaire, but it's AR it stands for.
    Yeah.
    Anti-Révolutionnaire?
    Yeah, Ant-Révolutionnaire party.
    There was a conservative party.
    And that's not just--
    it says the record complete name, not just initial.
    Anti-Révolutionnaire.
    OK.
    After the war started, did your mother
    belong to a group that opposed the German Nazis?
    I don't know if it was certain group but could come--
    she was in the underground.
    I don't think there was a group openly,
    you know, I mean, came out because she
    belonged to the underground, like everyone else.
    She belonged to the underground.
    Oh, yes.
    Don't you remember what was the name of this?
    Just underground?
    I don't think it had a special name.
    No, it was just they had special code names for giving messages,
    but I don't think it has a special name.
    It had only code names.
    And she was responsible for--
    she did, personally, she brought money to the people,
    my dad was responsible for the people
    in the underground who were on the strike from the railroad.
    And she brought them all the money, and she did that.
    Walked for miles every day to bring him that money.
    What kind of things did your mother do to oppose the Nazis?
    Well, she did support the underground
    and supported my dad, whoever we brought in or my brothers,
    you know?
    She was fully behind him and supported him in every way.
    And support her husband.
    Yeah.
    And who worked against the Nazis?
    Yes.
    In underground.
    Right.
    Yeah, they worked as a team.
    Now we are talking about you.
    I would like to ask some questions about you
    during the time when you were growing up.
    Did you attend elementary school?
    Yes.
    What kind of elementary school did you attend?
    Was it Protestant?
    Yeah, Christian Protestant school.
    Christian.
    Did any Jews attend your elementary school?
    Not in the town where I lived, no.
    No.
    Now would you like to see page 10.
    Were there many Jewish students attending
    your elementary school?
    No?
    No.
    Oh, that doesn't pertain.
    Did you attend gymnasium or high school?
    I went to a special girls' school.
    Lyceum?
    Lyceum, no.
    I would call it a household school, a domestic school
    for girls, I would say, where girls learn to be domestic.
    Not high school.
    Yes, a girls' high school, maybe.
    Girls' high school.
    Home economics, yeah.
    Yeah, that would be better?
    Was it a Protestant?
    No that wasn't--
    Non-sectarian?
    Yeah, non.
    You graduated also?
    Yes.
    Which year?
    Let's see, it was during the war.
    It must have been in '43.
    Yeah, '43.
    '43.
    Yeah, I was there during the war.
    Now, in this high school, did many Jewish children go?
    I would say just a few, maybe.
    A few?
    Yeah.
    Not very many.
    Page 10, yes?
    Did you have any trade?
    Trade?
    An occupation?
    Yes, for which you had to apprentice?
    Well, I went to that school, and then I worked in an office
    for a while.
    So that wasn't a trade.
    No.
    What was your religious affiliation
    during the time when you were growing up?
    Were you Protestant?
    Yes, Protestant.
    Now page 11.
    During the time when you were growing up,
    how much influence did your religion have on the way
    you lived your life?
    A great deal of influence.
    Page 12.
    During the time when you were growing up,
    did you have many close friends?
    Yes, I had a lot of friends.
    Many?
    Yes, I would say many.
    When you were with your friends, were you
    usually leader or a follower?
    A leader.
    A leader.
    Were any of your close friends, very different from you,
    in terms of religion or social class?
    Most of the friends I had went to the same church.
    They weren't very much different.
    Yeah.
    During that time you were growing up,
    were any of your close friends Jewish?
    No, we didn't have too many Jewish people in the town
    where I grew up.
    But did you know any Jews?
    Yes.
    During the time you were growing up
    was there a particular person that you admired very much
    and wanted to be like when you grow up?
    I don't know.
    Well, when we grew up, we--
    It was a person who you admired.
    And you said when I grow up, I wanted
    to be just like she or he?
    I can't remember anybody in particular.
    I know when we grew up, Hollywood was really big.
    You know, we would clip out the pictures and save.
    And I can't really remember one in particular.
    Yeah, the boys all admired Roy Rogers
    because he was really the cowboy star.
    So what was the quality that you admired in this person?
    I would say a certain strength of character.
    Strength?
    Yeah.
    Yes, strength of character or who did something
    really brave, like Florence Nightingale or somebody
    like that.
    Now we are interested in your feeling
    about various group of people.
    Before the war, did you have any feelings
    about people with educational background different from yours?
    Turn to the page 13 now.
    Oh, had a different background.
    I grew up in a time that educated was only
    for rich people.
    So I think that we, there was very much a class
    system in our town, in Holland.
    So only the rich studied and the rest did this, sort of us.
    A definite class system there.
    You had some feeling.
    I would say we had feelings about that.
    Yes.
    Now we have a scale here.
    We chose from the best to the worst.
    And I would like you to answer it using the seven points.
    There are seven point scales on this page.
    Number 1 means thought well of them and so on.
    What would be the closest, the way
    you felt about people with educational background
    different from yours.
    On a scale from 1 to 7?
    The highest one is did nothing wrong.
    I would say we thought well of them.
    Of the you would put it for to 1?
    Yeah, I would think so.
    Yeah we thought, well of them.
    During the war, did you your feeling
    about people from different educational backgrounds changed?
    No, unh-huh.
    Now you turned to the page 13.
    Using the same scale, please tell me what is
    the closest number, the way you felt during the war about people
    from different educational background.
    I would say 1, thought well of.
    Yes.
    Before the war, did you have any feelings
    about people of nationalities different from yours?
    Nationalities different from ours.
    And go to the page 16.
    OK, 16.
    No, sorry, 13.
    Well, at that time, we were not so up to date with other people,
    but I would say that we thought well
    of most of the people we knew, the different nationalities.
    But do you feel different?
    Before the war, did you have any feelings
    about people of nationalities different from yours?
    You had any before the war, yes?
    I don't think--
    Before the era, when the war, yeah--
    Before the war, I don't think so.
    But then after the war, we did, after we had the experience
    with the Germans.
    Now during the war, did your feeling
    about people of different nationalities changed?
    Yes, it changed.
    Yes.
    Tell me the number of the scale, what
    comes closest to the way you felt during the war
    about people of different nationalities?
    On page 13.
    7, I would say, because we did not
    think very well of the Germans.
    I don't know if that's the right answer.
    No, no, you don't.
    You did not understand the question.
    OK.
    The nationalities different, probably it means the Jews, no?
    The Jewish.
    Oh, I thought maybe that the Nazis were meant
    of that, the nationalities.
    Because we have Dutch Jews, too,
    This is also, it's an interesting question
    that I have to make a point something here,
    because it can be anyone.
    Yeah.
    Please tell me the number on the scale
    that comes closest to the way you felt during the war
    about people of different nationalities.
    It could be anyone.
    Yeah, see, that's a tricky question,
    really, because if you say another nationality,
    we did not think well of the Germans, you know?
    So if I would say, well, that would not include the Jews.
    Yes, could be Germans.
    Could be Italians.
    Could be any nationality.
    Oh, I don't know.
    That's a hard question to answer.
    I'll put a question mark.
    Yeah 13, 12.
    This done under the scale that comes closest
    to the way you felt during the war
    about people of different nationalities.
    I think includes all different nationalities.
    Yeah, well, then, I did not think well of the Nazi Germans,
    but if that refers to the Jews, then that's not a good question.
    Before the war, did you have any feeling
    about people of religious different from yours?
    No.
    On page 13, what number of the scale
    comes closest to the way you felt
    about people of different religion before the war?
    1, we thought well of different people.
    Yes.
    During the war, did your feeling about people
    of different religion change?
    Not really, no.
    What number of the scale comes closest
    to the way you felt about people in different religious?
    I think I thought well of them, the same.
    Before the war, did you have any feeling
    about people from social classes different from yours?
    Yes, we had feeling for that.
    What number of the scale come closest
    to the way you felt about people of different social classes?
    I would say 2.
    During the war, did your feeling about people
    of different social classes change?
    No.
    Which, the number on the scale that comes closest to the way
    you felt during the war about people
    of different social classes?
    I would say 2, also.
    Before the war, did you have any feeling about Jews?
    Yes.
    What number of the scale comes closest
    to the way you felt about Jews before the war?
    Number 1.
    During the war, did your feeling about Jews change?
    No.
    What number on the scale comes closest?
    1.
    Before the war, did you have any feeling about Gypsies?
    Those Gypsies, yeah, I had feelings about the Gypsies.
    What number on the scales come closest?
    Well, I would make it maybe a 3, because we
    had our feelings about it.
    Yeah.
    And this feeling, during the war, changed?
    No.
    Unh-uh.
    On page 13, again, where you would put--
    Yeah, I would keep them at the 3 scale.
    3?
    Before the war, did you have any feeling about Nazis?
    Before the war.
    Before the war, yeah, we had our feelings about the Nazis.
    We didn't know too much about it.
    What number, in this case, comes closest
    to the way you felt about Nazis before the war?
    Before the war, well, let's put them in a 6,
    because we didn't know that much about them.
    So probably this question, what we left out,
    it relates to the Jews, because here now,
    this special, where we put the question mark.
    And I would like you to complete this one after.
    During the war, did your feeling about the Nazis change?
    Oh, definitely.
    Where would you put them?
    If there was a lower number, [LAUGHS]
    I would put it lower than a 7.
    7.
    Now, again, you have to turn to page 22.
    OK.
    It's sad to see a lonely person in a group.
    I strongly agree, agree, disagree.
    Do you have the answers here?
    22.
    Page 22.
    What do you say?
    Shall I repeat it again?
    Yes.
    It's sad to see a lonely person in a group.
    A lonely person in a group?
    Yeah.
    It's really sad to see when someone is lonely in a group.
    Yeah.
    What do you say?
    But I don't understand.
    What should I do?
    Strongly agree or agree?
    You have to choose one of these answers.
    Do you strongly agree or agree, disagree?
    That would be unpleasant to see someone who is sad in a group.
    Oh, oh, yeah.
    I can't quite understand what.
    How do you feel after you say it?
    Do you feel for that person?
    Yeah, I feel.
    I agree, you know?
    Is that the right word for it?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yeah, I would strongly agree to.
    Strongly?
    Yeah.
    I get nervous if others seem nervous.
    I get nervous when others seem nervous.
    Yes, I feel sort of for them.
    What is your--
    1.
    1?
    OK.
    Bringing bad news to people upsets me.
    Yeah, 1.
    The words of a song can move me deeply.
    Yes, 1.
    I get very involved with my friends' problems.
    Yes.
    My moods are affected by the people around me.
    2, I would say.
    I get upset when my friend is upset.
    2.
    I like to watch people open presents.
    1.
    I get very upset when I see someone hurt.
    1.
    The feeling of people in books affect me.
    1.
    Seeing people cry upsets me.
    1.
    I usually stay calm, even when others worry.
    2.
    Yeah?
    I stay calm when others worry?
    Yeah.
    You feel so?
    Yeah.
    I would say 2, yeah.
    My decisions are not influenced by people's feelings.
    Yes, I agree with that.
    2?
    1.
    I feel bad if people around me are sad.
    Yeah, I agree there.
    Yes, I feel bad.
    Which number?
    1.
    This is strongly agree, the 1.
    Yeah.
    I get very upset when I see an animal in pain.
    An animal in pain.
    2.
    It upsets me to see helpless people.
    Yeah, I strongly agree on that.
    No.
    4.
    I feel that I have much to be proud about myself.
    1.
    I am able to do things as well as most other people.
    1.
    I wish I could have more respect for myself.
    4.
    I take a positive attitude about myself.
    1.
    In general, I am satisfied with myself.
    2.
    Should always leave room for improvement.
    Yes, you are very moderate.
    At times, I think I am no good at all.
    2.
    Now check the box that comes closest
    to your opinion about each of the following statements.
    And that will be true and false.
    On page 23.
    Sometimes an individual's ability is not recognized.
    True.
    Students' grades in school depend on their own efforts.
    True.
    Getting what I want has little or nothing to do with luck.
    True.
    When I make plans, I am almost certain that I
    can make them work.
    False.
    Getting a good job depends mainly
    on being in the right place at the right time.
    False.
    Who gets to be boss is the person
    who is lucky enough to be in the right place first.
    False.
    Many times, we might just as well
    decide what to do by flipping a coin.
    False.
    Many times I feel that I have little influence over the things
    that happens to me.
    Ah, true.
    There really is no such thing as luck.
    True.
    No?
    You don't believe?
    There's not such a thing as luck.
    You can be lucky, you know?
    You don't believe in luck?
    There is little one can do to alter his fate.
    There is little one can do to alter his fate.
    Oh, that's false, I would say.
    All success in life is outside of our own control.
    Ah, false.
    If a person tries hard enough he will reach his goals.
    False.
    Most persons have a lot of control over what
    happens to them in life.
    False.
    What happens to me is largely my own doing.
    False
    Ultimately, no one is going to care
    much what happens to you when you get right down to it.
    That's false.
    If you don't watch yourself people
    will take advantage of you.
    False.
    If you risk my life to save an acquaintance.
    Sorry.
    I would risk my life to save an acquaintance.
    Acquaintance.
    That's one of those questions again.
    Would you risk your life?
    Would you save an acquaintance?
    Yeah.
    I don't know.
    People are usually cooperative.
    Yes, I would say, that's true.
    I would risk my life for a stranger.
    That's true or false?
    See there are such questions, if you were there.
    I don't think you can answer that fully, you know?
    Risking your life.
    We risked our life for strangers, really.
    Yes.
    Would you do it again?
    Yeah, I would think so.
    Yeah, there is not an answer.
    False or true.
    I would risk my life for a stranger.
    If someone jumps in the water--
    Yeah, see, you know, when a man--
    yeah, I think if you saw a person, then you would.
    You don't start deliberating whether you're going to do it
    or not.
    Yes.
    What's the time now?
    9:05.
    I think maybe I should--
    I was reading it, but it says also in there.
    Maybe I should give it to you.
    Then you could--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Yeah, where were you living for the longest period of time
    during the war, in what place and country?
    In Ermelo, Holland.
    Would you like to spell it again, please.
    Ermelo is E-R-M-E-L-O.
    Page 14.
    Was it a large city, no?
    A village.
    Did you live in a house, an apartment, or other?
    A house.
    A house?
    How many stories did this house have, not
    counting the cellar and attic.
    Two.
    Was there a cellar?
    Yes.
    Was there an attic?
    Yes.
    Did you own your own home?
    Yes.
    Or pay rent?
    Owned.
    How many rooms were there in your home, not counting
    bathrooms.
    Six.
    Other than the members of your family
    who were living with you during the war,
    were there any other relatives living in?
    No.
    How many different families of your relatives lived in Ermelo?
    None.
    Before the war, were there any Jews living in your community?
    A few.
    Yes.
    A few?
    Yeah.
    Did you have a sense of belonging in the community?
    Did you feel like an outsider?
    No, we had a sense of belonging.
    Now, I would like to make a list of people
    who were living in your household
    before the war broke out in 1939.
    I don't need their names again, just their relationship to you
    and their ages in 1939.
    '39.
    So I was 12 years old then.
    If some of them had left the home?
    No.
    Who were living in your household in 1939?
    1939.
    Immediately before the war
    All of us except my oldest brother.
    He was gone already then.
    So mother, father.
    Father.
    Yeah, Mother, Father.
    Mother, Father, one brother and three sisters.
    One brother, one sister, one sister, one sister.
    In 1939, your father's age?
    Let's see, 1939, my father's age.
    He was two years older than I said before.
    Yes.
    It seems, well, my mother was 40 when I was born.
    So when I was 12, she was 52, and my father was then 48.
    Yeah, my father was young, 48.
    In 1937, your father was 50.
    I mean, 47.
    Yeah, so now in 1939, two years older isn't it?
    Yeah.
    49.
    Yeah.
    49.
    Your mother was 52 then.
    Mm-hmm.
    So we just add one brother.
    Which brother was it?
    The youngest one was still living.
    22.
    He was 22 and now is 24.
    Well, they were not living there either then,
    because he was in the Navy.
    They're not living there.
    Maybe.
    Do you want to stop?
    OK.
    Yeah, my father and mother and my two sisters
    in '39, my father and mother, and my one sister
    was 16 and the other one, 14.
    One sister was 16.
    Yes.
    In 1937-- I mean, '39.
    '39.
    Does that come up there?
    No.
    How old did you say?
    17, maybe.
    The two youngest?
    17 and 14.
    Right.
    And they were all born in Holland?
    Yes, mm-hmm.
    And what they were doing?
    Well, they--
    Father, at that time?
    Well, father was working for the railroad and mother, housewife.
    And the others were students.
    Yes.
    Does that include everyone who was living
    in your household in 1939?
    Mm-hmm.
    Yes.
    Now I would like you to see the page 16.
    Before the war, were you very well off financially?
    I would say 3.
    Neither rich nor poor.
    17.
    Before the war, did you think of yourself as being upper class?
    3, middle class.
    Did you get married during the war?
    No.
    So then you did not have any children.
    No.
    I better not.
    [LAUGHS] No.
    Yeah, because this is again relating to the children.
    What kind of work did you do just before the war?
    I was in school.
    Now, during the war, what was your main job?
    I mean, you have been in school and before, you
    told me that you had been learning as a nurse,
    also in school.
    It was different from the one what we discussed or the same?
    Well, my mother was a nurse.
    Oh, your mother.
    Sorry, sorry.
    Yeah, and I went to school, to that special girls' school,
    home economics school.
    Oh, yeah, the girls' school.
    Yeah, the girls.
    During the war-- this is page 18.
    The answer.
    Did you have some close friends?
    Few close friends?
    1.
    I had close friends.
    Few close friends or no close friends?
    Number 1.
    Some close friends.
    Yeah.
    Number 2, isn't it?
    No.
    Except, they have 1, 4, 5.
    Maybe they--
    Page 18.
    Yeah.
    See?
    Yes, and here, then they made a mistake here,
    because it's 2, 4, 5.
    Yeah, I think there's numbers.
    OK.
    So they did not have, they did not marry.
    This is to your husband.
    Page 19.
    That is also for wife or husband.
    This, I suppose, if I were to be married and had family
    during the war.
    Before the Second World War, were you
    a member of a political party?
    I was too young then to be a member, so no.
    After the war started, did you belong to a group
    that opposed the Nazis?
    Well, yeah.
    Like we said before, we all belonged to the underground
    except it didn't have a special name.
    What was the name of the group?
    Well, it didn't have a special, you know,
    just resistance movement.
    Resistance movement, that would be a--
    What kind of things did you do to oppose the Nazis?
    Ah, well, almost anything.
    But with my family, the blowing up of railroad
    tracks and bringing messages, money to divers.
    Bringing messages.
    Yeah, delivering, the news, underground news.
    Blowing up the--
    Railroad tracks.
    Hiding of weapons, you know?
    During the last year, they would drop
    the weapons and the resistance forces, and we would hide them,
    you know?
    And helping people who needed homes
    and bringing money to people who were underground.
    Before the Nazis.
    Yeah.
    If someone needed your help, would you
    be more likely to help someone you know?
    Page 20.
    3, I would say.
    Wouldn't make any difference.
    Are you tired?
    No, are you?
    No, just, I ask.
    We are nearly finished.
    Now, during the war did you ever help any Jews?
    Yes.
    Now you can answer everything.
    What kind of things did you do?
    Slowly, that I can write it.
    OK.
    They usually got you through the resistance movement,
    through the underground.
    But what kind of things did you do for them?
    Providing them with shelter, with a place.
    Providing shelter.
    And a safe place to stay.
    Shelter.
    Food?
    Food and clothing, a home.
    Message, warning?
    Yes, warnings, messages.
    Support.
    I think that was very important, too,
    that we gave them encouragement and support
    and that they came into a loving home
    where they found that support.
    Because I think that was very often, that they,
    especially with children who were separated from their family
    and to give them that love and support.
    And sometimes, even if you had to find another home for them,
    then to still encourage them and give them
    that support that they needed to endure, find different places.
    Yeah, sometimes that was necessary.
    Hiding places.
    Yeah, hiding places.
    What else?
    And too, sometimes, it was possible to let
    them know that the rest of their family was OK.
    To give them mainly support, I would
    say, to encourage them, too.
    I know you have read The Diary of Anne Frank.
    How this one lady constantly keeps on coming back and brings
    them messages and brings them the food,
    so that they are encouraged to keep up their spirit.
    Yeah, to keep up the spirit and to encourage each other.
    And they look forward.
    For that to be a connection between parents and--
    Yeah, to, if it is at all possible,
    to let them know what the rest are, what the family is doing
    and that they are safe, so to give them that support
    Was there ever a time when you wanted to help the Jews
    but felt that you could not?
    Yeah, there were times that you felt
    like you wanted to help more.
    And it wasn't always possible, you know?
    What were the circumstances that you wanted to help
    and you could not?
    Lack of space in your home, that you wanted to take more in
    and that you just simply didn't have the room or the finances
    to feed them all.
    Because it took money to feed all those people.
    Yes.
    During the war, were there any leaders that you admired?
    Oh, Churchill, for sure.
    Winston Churchill, we admired him very much, yeah.
    He gave us a lot of encouraging messages on our radio.
    Who else?
    I would say Eisenhower, the liberators,
    you know, the people who liberated us and our Queen.
    Our royal family, I think, was very much admired in Holland
    for the strength they took.
    Queen Astrid?
    What was her name?
    No, Wilhelmina.
    Wilhelmina--
    Oh, Wilhelmina.
    --was our Queen.
    Queen Wilhelmina.
    Yeah, she was very, very well loved, very admired.
    Well, what were the things you admired about, let's say,
    Churchill?
    Churchill, I think their strength and their honesty.
    Churchill never told us lies.
    He said this blood is going to cost blood and tears,
    and he didn't.
    He just said it as it was.
    But he also had a strength.
    Eisenhower?
    Eisenhower, I think, also was a great leader.
    Mainly for the strength, I think, that they encouraged you,
    and they didn't give up or give in.
    They had good leadership and feelings with Wilhelmina?
    Yeah, also I think that she was kind of a plain woman,
    but she had so much strength of character.
    Strength of character, I would say.
    People admired General Patton very much, too, in Holland?
    No, I don't know which one is we lived in Germany, France,
    Poland, or others.
    Page 27.
    Page 27.
    Between 1939 and 1945, were you ever unjustly treated
    by any government officials?
    Oh, we were all unjustly treated by government officials.
    What was it?
    Well, I mean, by being occupied, your freedom being taken away.
    I think we were all unjustly treated.
    Our home--
    Government and government officials?
    Our home was taken away from us.
    And when was it?
    When was it?
    Our home was taken away?
    When was it?
    Which year?
    In 1944, we had to leave our home.
    What happened?
    My dad was on strike, on a railroad strike,
    and they took over our house.
    So we had to leave, and they took out our house.
    And then my brother was put into a camp by the government,
    you know?
    Strike.
    Their home was taken away.
    And brother?
    My brother was put into a concentration camp for two years
    by the government.
    Really?
    For refusing to arrest Jews.
    You did not mention it before.
    I did tell about him.
    Did you?
    Yeah.
    That he was put into concentration camp?
    At the very beginning.
    At the very beginning.
    Yes, for hiding Jews.
    No, remember that I told you that he
    had to go into the police force and that they were--

    Overview

    Interview Summary
    Cornelia Knottnerus, born April 14, 1927 in Ermelo, Netherlands, discusses her experiences as a teenager during World War II in a family that worked with the Dutch underground; her family’s motivations for working with the underground, including their Christian beliefs and their community’s emphasis on helpfulness; the progression of their involvement from the beginning of the occupation through the end of the war; her older brother’s assignment to the police force, his refusal to follow orders to arrest Jews, and his sentence to a concentration camp for two years; her father, who worked for the railroad and helped people obtain coupons and papers; her family’s false closet in their home which was used to hide people; housing a Jewish girl, Netty van Maarsen; feeling like she was a sister and remaining in contact with her; housing a Dutch boy whose family had worked with the underground and had been betrayed; being aware of the risks of working with the underground; being taught by her parents to hide their activities; the search of her home by German soldiers, one of whom lingered at the false closet door and may have been aware of it, but moved on; the bombing of the house; her family going into hiding in a chicken coop along with a 16-year-old Jewish boy and others; using a bicycle light as an overhead lamp and taking turns using it to read; being liberated; feeling that her family did what they did “with God’s help” and that if everyone in her community had actively worked to protect the Jews many more people could have been saved; and talking with her children about her experiences and speaking at churches and schools.
    Interviewee
    Cornelia Knottnerus
    Date
    interview:  1984 September 16
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Council

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    2 sound cassettes (60 min.).

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council interviewed Cornelia Knottnerus on September 16, 1984 as part of the international conference "Faith in Humankind: Rescuers of Jews During the Holocaust" held at the U. S. Department of State, Washington, DC.
    Funding Note
    The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:18:41
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn510786

    Additional Resources

    Transcripts (2)

    Download & Licensing

    In-Person Research

    Contact Us

    Also in United States Holocaust Memorial Council, Faith in Humankind oral history collection

    Oral history interviews from the United States Holocaust Memorial Council, Faith in Humankind collection

    Oral history interview with Eve Bergstein

    Oral History

    Eve Bergstein (née Nisencwajg), born September 12, 1936 near Krakow, Poland, describes her to a large, close-knit family, only two of whom survived Auschwitz; her mother living in the forest with a partisan group and father being caught and killed in trying to escape a labor camp; living with a Catholic family, the Szumielewicz’s, and being disguised as their orphaned niece; being taken to a convent to be hidden; the bombing of the convent; living under a downtown building with her uncle and many other people for nine months; turning to Catholicism, eventually being put in an orphanage in Schirmeck, France until arrangements were made for her to go to Canada to live with her mother’s sister and her family; moving many times and wanting to live a normal life; suppressing memories to the extent that she forgot how to speak Polish; believing that people can survive almost anything; her Canadian husband and having three children; returning to Judaism; organizing a Holocaust teaching group; and feeling that she has an obligation to continue her Jewish legacy.

    Oral history interview with Annette Berman

    Oral History

    Annette Berman (née Kupfer), born on May 3, 1924 in France, describes extensive support given by Christian friends (the Bernaille family) after restrictions on Jews were put in place; the Bernailles managing to get her and her mother to a farmhouse, where they stayed for two and a half years; being supported by another farm family, while her father was caught while trying to leave and was jailed; becoming part of the underground, carrying out assignments (changing road signs, burying parachutes) even while German soldiers were staying at the same farmhouse; liberation in 1945 and returning to Paris to the Bernailles by hitchhiking; finding her father at the synagogue talking to soldiers, one of whom is now her husband; her feelings of guilt because she was not in a camp and survived; her family surviving as a unit; and the Bernailles' motivation for having done all that they did simply as a matter of principle.

    Oral history interview with Janny Blom

    Oral History

    Janny Blom, born October 16, 1915 in Almelo, Netherlands, describes living in 17 different foster homes starting when she was 10 years old; becoming aware of changes starting with the July 12, 1942 round-up of Jews; feeling closest to the foster parents with whom she lived for four years and learning from them about how to be thrifty, clean, honest, industrious, and good to all people; working as a dental assistant for Dr. Freidenburg (also spelled Vreedenburg) with whom she and her husband became good friends; hiding the Freidenburgs in their home; her husband carrying out assignments for the underground; moving to Michigan after the war; giving lectures about the war in schools, women’s clubs, and Methodist church circles; her children knowing about the rescue activities during the war; and how her message to children is never to have Nazism ever again and that totalitarianism is a bad state of affairs.

    Oral history interview with Sjouke Bouwme de Vries

    Oral History

    Sjouke Bouwme de Vries, born August 31, 1923 in a small friendly village in Holland to a very close working class family; how along with her family and fiancé, she helped in rescue activities during World War II; receiving support from members of the underground movement; having rescued 33 strangers altogether; the everyday pressures, risks, and the sense of it being unrecognized for their efforts; how after the war she and her family continued their commitment to helping others by feeding and providing clothes for survivors; not speaking publicly very much about her experiences but that she would do the same things again if needed; and how the most stressful time during the war was when they were hiding Jews in their house.

    Oral history interview with Knud Dyring Dyby

    Oral History

    Knud Dyring Dyby (alternative name Knud Dyring-Olsen), born in Denmark on March 28, 1915, describes being raised in a non-political Lutheran family; being aware of what was happening to the Jews after 1940 but not seeing any persecution until 1943; getting involved in the underground movement; his activities collecting weapons and making photographic engravings for the underground papers; being a boatman in the Copenhagen police department and asked to take Jews in his boat to Sweden; taking them to Swedish fishermen who were his friends; the logistics of transporting Jews to Sweden, which involved meeting Swedish boats outside of Swedish ports rather than going right into Sweden; not remembering names but ferrying 30 to 40 people; having many close calls during those runs; not being paid money for the rescues; how the refugees were given money by a Danish-Swedish rescue group and by other Jewish refugees and, later, the Swedish government; receiving thank you notes from many of the people he helped; and liberation on May 5, 1945.

    Oral history interview with Herman Graebe

    Oral History

    Herman Graebe, born June 19, 1900 in Solingen, Germany, discusses working for Organisation Todt as an engineer and being assigned to a project in Zdolbuniv, Ukraine in 1941; convincing officials that his secretary and interpreter, Rosalia Warchiwker, whose husband had been killed by the SS, was not a Jew and that she should not wear the yellow star; hearing reports of Jews being killed but being denied information by Organisation Todt; making ID cards for 500 of his Jewish employees that said they were contracted to work for him and could not be taken elsewhere; providing food for Jews who were, for their protection, listed as employees on a railroad project but were not actually employed; fearing he might be killed for helping Jews, but feeling it would be dishonorable to himself and his country to do nothing; hearing that there was to be a mass execution of Jews in Rivne, Ukraine and taking 130 of his workers to Zdolbuniv under the guise of having them treated for lice; being told by an official that there was to be no mass execution, but hearing of a conflicting report from another official; witnessing a mass killing in October 1942; and not being believed by other German citizens when he told them that Jews were being killed.

    Oral history interview with Annelies Herzl

    Oral History

    Annelies Herzl describes living in Amsterdam, Netherlands in 1943 after getting out of a concentration camp and being hidden by a retired couple who were part of the underground resistors; being taken to Utrecht, Netherlands via train by Eric Braun [sic] to a home with five children and working as their maid; escaping just hours before the home was searched and staying with an elderly Catholic woman for several months until Eric Braun took her to a new house where she stayed until being liberated in May 1945 by the Canadians; and feeling that she would not be able to do what all of the rescuers did and be as courageous and generous.

    Oral history interview with Harry Jaarsma

    Oral History

    Harry Jaarsma, born June 3, 1914 in Balk, Netherlands, describes growing up in the Christian Reform Church and how his religion influenced his decisions during the Nazi occupation; losing his laundry business in Amsterdam when he was called to serve in the Dutch Army; being aware that patients and staff of the Jewish psychiatric hospital in Apeldoorn, Netherlands were taken away by the Nazis, but feeling he could not do anything to intervene; becoming an inspector of the Evacuation Service in 1943 and inspecting homes in the countryside to find places for people who had been evacuated by the Germans; encountering Jews hiding in homes and not registering them; obtaining a quarantine sign from a doctor to hang on the door of a home where Jews were hiding to deter the Germans from entering the house; working with the underground in various ways, including identifying hiding places for Jews and transporting Jews to safety, aiding those wanted for slave labor by the Nazis (including non-Jews), and hiding a Jewish woman in his home; hitting a car of SS officers while transporting two Jewish boys to a hiding place; stealing supplies from a German office, being investigated, and avoiding punishment because the detective was his friend; hiding his underground work from his family; not knowing the names of those he helped; being arrested by the German police but being let go on the recommendation of an officer whose bicycle he had helped fix earlier in the day; leaving the Netherlands in 1949 after failing to get financial help to restart his business; resettling in the United States; not keeping in touch with others with whom he worked in the underground; feeling that his experiences strengthened his religious beliefs; and sharing his story with his children.

    Oral history interview with Mary Schroder Moen Jacobs

    Oral History

    Mary Schroder Moen Jacobs, born in 1930 in a suburb of Utrecht, Netherlands, describes spending most of her life in Amersfoort, Netherlands beginning in 1940; hiding four Jews (a young man, a young woman, and a couple) in their house from 1942 until liberation; remembering that time as dangerous, tense, and very difficult; the two times that the Germans came to their house, once to search and the other to house two German soldiers, all while the Jews where hiding in one room next to the Germans; the network of 40 to 50 people who were involved in the rescue activities; how her mother was her role model because she always wanted to help the underdog or less fortunate and do all she could to sustain life; immigrating to Canada in 1955 after having first lived in the United States for a short while; and writing a book (as Maria Jacobs) about her experiences, “Precautions Against Death” (published in 1984 by Mosaic Press) along with a few other publications.

    Oral history interview with Carl Heinz Kneuman

    Oral History

    Carl Heinz Kneuman, born in Bydgoszcs, Poland in 1922 (note that Mr. Kneuman dedicates his interview to Dr. and Mrs. Wolfgang Heubner), describes moving to Berlin, Germany in 1932; his sister getting married and moving to the United States; Dr. Wolfgang Heubner discovering that his institute was being used as a clearinghouse where humans were being used as guinea pigs for new medications; the country’s general strife at the time; hearing about the activities of Kristallnacht in 1938 from his sister, who arrived home completely upset by what she’d seen; how both his father and mother were active in helping Jews escape, as they could not tolerate injustice; the political terror at that time; his father being involved in the black market and how the highest-priced commodity at the time was saccharine since sugar was not available; becoming a journalist because of his experiences during the war; and helping French co-workers who were working with the Danish resistance groups.

    Oral history interview with Rose Koenigsberg

    Oral History

    Rose Koenigsberg, born in 1914 in Velichovky, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic), describes her life teaching in Ralova until March 1939 when the Hungarians occupied the entire town; being arrested but then later being released to return to Velichovky where she lived fairly comfortably until 1944; going into hiding towards the middle of 1944 after they began to feel the pressures of being Jewish; being discovered and arrested by Hungarian guards and then going to Berehove, Ukraine before their transport to Auschwitz; staying with her sisters throughout her time at the camp; the terrible food and the poor clothing in Auschwitz; eventually moving with her sisters to Zittau (a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen), where she worked in an airplane factory; holding various positions at the factory until the camp was liberated by the Russians; returning home to Czechoslovakia and soon being reunited with the rest of her family; and moving to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Jane Laufer

    Oral History

    Jane Laufer (née Rosenblum), born in Poland on July 25, 1922, describes growing up with a younger brother; being aware of the war because so many people were coming from Austria; her memory of September 1, 1939 as a big propaganda day and being told to leave; walking with their luggage; hiding in the woods; Germans making them move to the ghetto starting in in May 1941; remaining in the ghetto until September 1942; the deportations of people to work camps; being helped by some nuns; a priest preparing a passport for her so that she could work in a restaurant, where she worked until 1944 when the restaurant closed; being liberated by the Russians on January 21, 1945; going home and finding that the Russians had taken all the food so there was literally nothing to eat; living in the Black Forest to hide from the Russians and eventually moving to Munich, Germany for a few years; going to the United States in September 1956; the effects of the Holocaust on her; experiencing nightmares, sleeplessness, and stress; and her reasons for never returning to her home town.

    Oral history interview with Margot Lawson

    Oral History

    Margot Edith Lawson, born April 3, 1909 in Mannheim, Germany, discusses her life in Germany leading up to World War II; growing up in a Catholic family with many Jewish friends; studying in England, Italy, and Spain; her family being aware of and concerned about the persecution of Jews; seeing Hitler Youth on her street; her family’s housekeeper’s husband being accused of speaking against Hitler by members of Hitler Youth; moving with her family to Amsterdam, Netherlands near the beginning of the war; witnessing the mistreatment of Jews in Amsterdam; being given American money by her father, a representative of General Motors, to use to buy her way out of conflicts with Nazis; working with an organization to forge papers for Jews and smuggle Jewish children out of Holland; delivering clandestine newspapers; being taken in for questioning by German authorities for criticizing the Nazi Party or for breaking curfew; being jailed after breaking curfew; witnessing poor conditions in the jail and the sexual abuse of prisoners; the ransacking of her house by Germans who were looking for papers she had hidden there; meeting with the head of the Dutch Nazis, criticizing Nazi policy, and telling him that the Germans would never win and that he would be a prisoner one day; encountering the same man after the war and testifying against him at his trial before he was hanged; her feeling that her faith made her willing to take risks because she was not afraid to die; and how she remembers her wartime experiences now that she lives in the United States.

    Oral history interview with Eva Lewin

    Oral History

    Eva Lewin (née Lipschutz), born in 1925 in Swinemünde, Germany (now Swinoujscie, Poland), describes having one brother, Hans, who was four years older; having a nice childhood until 1933 when they had to move to Berlin, Germany; how her family tried unsuccessfully to emigrate; trying to get papers so that she and her brother could go to a kibbutz in Palestine in 1939, but her papers did not go through; being contacted by a Quaker woman, Mrs. Landmann, in England who arranged for her to go to a farm in August 1939; going on the children’s transport to London and being taken in by a woman who ran a youth hostel; staying with a couple who ran a school; going to the United States after the war to become a nurse; continuing her connection with Mrs. Landmann, who is now 95 years old and has a tree planted at the Avenue of the Righteous in Israel; how Mrs. Landmann worked every day to get affidavits for children without being paid; and Mrs. Landmann’s sacrifice to save about 70 children.

    Oral history interview with Barbara Makuch

    Oral History

    Barbara Makuch, born in Russia in 1917, describes growing up mostly in eastern Poland, in a Catholic family; being approached beginning in 1942 by several Jews seeking help; sheltering Malka Glass, a six year-old girl, for approximately six months, telling neighbors that Malka was her cousin; how, as it became more dangerous, she found a convent that agreed to accept Malka; helping another Jew, Sophia Price, by buying her a train ticket to a large city; aiding a pediatrician, Dr. Olga Lilion, by telling the director of the school at which she worked that she had a friend who needed a job; helping to save another young Jewish boy, Stefan Jacobchek, by getting him enrolled at the school; joining an underground organization that provided false documents, money, and food to Jews in hiding; acting as a courier and being caught by the Germans; being held in prison for a month, but being released after the Germans were bribed; being sent to Ravensbrück, where she remained until the end of the war; making her way back to Poland and later traveling to Canada, where she met her husband; settling in Montreal; staying in touch with several of the people she saved during the war; and being recognized for her heroism by Yad Vashem.

    Oral history interview with Alice Meilof

    Oral History

    Alice Meilof (née Prviksma), born in the Netherlands 20 miles from the German border, describes being 14 to 19 years of age during the war; her brothers and sisters; her father, who took in three Jewish boys brought to him by the underground; having to move the boys from time to time; how the boys helped her father in his work as a butcher; the hiding place in their house, which was simply a hole in the floor with a carpet rolled over it; the Germans never coming to search the house; her father’s motivation to take in the Jewish boys because of his belief in the Christian Reformed concept of “to do something good is normal”; her mother providing farm food to people who had escaped the bigger cities of Rotterdam and Amsterdam; how her father was in command of a region of the underground; her work as a messenger; how nothing could be spoken out loud since neighbors or others might overhear and report their activities; the lack of food in the big cities such that people were eating tulip bulbs and their pets; housing five policemen for two nights; her emotions when they were liberated by the Canadians; and still feeling sorry for the German soldiers in their defeat.

    Oral history interview with Halina Melnyczuk

    Oral History

    Halina Sophia Melnyczuk (née Zahaikiewicz), born February 21, 1921 in Przemysl, Poland, describes her two brothers and one sister; growing up in a vaguely religious Ukrainian Catholic family that was not political; living in an apartment building where they were the only non-Jews; how when the war started in 1939 they had as many as 30 Jews living with them and their housekeeper threatened to turn them in to the Nazis; moving to another apartment in 1942 because the old one had heavy damage from shelling; how the new apartment was across from the police station; the liquidation of the ghetto in 1943 and taking in a young couple, Edek and Eda Scheffler, whom they hid by camouflaging the pantry to look like bookshelves; sharing their rations and sometimes selling items from their apartment to buy meat; instances when it seemed they’d been found out; being on the list to be transported to a concentration camp in Siberia but deciding to emigrate instead; leaving everything behind, including the Schefflers, who now live in Israel; living in Kraków, Poland; fleeing to Vienna, Austria in 1944; how the war did not change her religious beliefs but left her more tolerant of other people; and her belief that the most important thing is to do good deeds.

    Oral history interview with Tjitske Mulder

    Oral History

    Tjitske Mulder (née Hoogeveen), born June 23, 1909 in Westermeer, Netherlands, describes growing up in a very close family with five brothers and two sisters; her father, who was a dairy farmer and a member of an anti-revolutionary party and the underground; her father teaching her that the most important attribute was to be independent and to ignore social class structures; getting married in Bergum, Netherlands in 1930 to a barber; having two sons in the small city of Sneek, Netherlands during the war years; how in Sneek Jews were always well thought of; her and her husband’s first rescue activity moving a Jewish girl from one hiding place to another; hiding the parents of the Jewish girl, whom the Gestapo were chasing; an interesting subterfuge they used when the Gestapo came to their house; remaining friends with the girl, Lydia; speaking frequently publicly about their activities; their children and grandchildren, who are as strongly supportive of what they did during the war; their willingness to help anyone, whether they knew them or not, and doing so without regret; the friendship that grew between the two families when they lived together, praying, singing, and arguing together; her husband’s belief that Hitler was doing wrong by the Jews and how his own inner voice told him to help, as the Bible was his guide; and how they were given no money to keep the Jews in hiding.

    Oral history interview with Wanda Ollbryska

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Irene Opdyke

    Oral History

    Irene Opdyke, born in Kozienice, Poland, describes growing up in a close, Catholic family with four younger sisters, all of whom were taught always to keep an open heart, to be helpful; joining the Polish army then hiding in the forest after Poland was defeated; being very brutally treated by Russian troops and eventually being sent to an ammunitions factory in Poland, where she acted as a server; being sent to the front in Poland, close to the Russian border where she witnessed horrendous brutalities carried out on Jewish families; being moved again to work in the laundry room of about 300 Germans and the local head of the Gestapo in Ternopil', Ukraine; befriending 12 Jews working there and creating an information network; becoming the housekeeper to a German major and managing to hide Jews in the cellar in an underground area under the gazebo; the liquidation of the ghetto in early 1943 and taking the 12 Jews to the forest to join others in hiding; building a bunker where the Jews stayed until the Russian Army liberated them; joining the Polish partisans to help in the fight against the Russians and eventually being arrested and put in detention; escaping by jumping out a window; going to Krakow, Poland; going to the United States in 1949 and becoming a US citizen; working in the garment center in NYC; getting married to a man who worked for the United Nations; and the tree planted in her honor on the Avenue of the Righteous in Jerusalem.

    Oral history interview with Jacob Oversloot

    Oral History

    Jacob Simon Oversloot, born in Rotterdam, Netherlands, describe growing up in a family that was not religious and not political; his six siblings; living in The Hague, Netherlands when the war broke out and working at a department store in the furs section; people arriving from Poland and Germany starting in 1938; the German occupation and Germans shipping staple goods to Germany, leaving nothing for residents; taking in his close Jewish business acquaintance (Leo Krell) along with his wife and son when they were going to be transported to Auschwitz and hiding them from 1940 to 1944; making fur coats with this man; the persecution and deportation of the Jews; never witnessing acts of violence against Jews; his hatred for the occupying Germans and refusing to follow their laws or do what they told him to; no one in their family knowing that he and his wife were hiding Jews; how they kept the Jews safe; getting foods from the black market and from the underground movement; restarting his fur business after the war, until 1950 when he moved to Canada; how his rescue activities strengthened his inner faith and that he would do the same now; and his lifetime friendship with the family he hid.

    Oral history interview with Alice Paulus

    Oral History

    Alice Paulus (née Rijskamp), born in 1915, describes being newly married with a five month old baby when she and her husband began their rescue activities; helping to rescue five people; one couple staying with them for two and a half years in hiding; how many of their friends would not help the Jews, thinking it much too dangerous; believing it was their Christian duty; the most stressful time during the war when her second child was born and there was no hospital, few medicines, and bombs dropping on the city; conducting rescue activities from October 1942 to the end of the war in May 1945, but continuing to host the couple because there was no place for them to live; how three of her husband’s brothers also hid Jews; speaking to church groups often when they first came to Ohio in 1957-1962; speaking in the pubic schools; the major influence religion now has on how she lives her life; and her admiration for Winston Churchill and the Holland leadership for being very honest.

    Oral history interview with Marion Pritchard

    Oral History

    Marion Pritchard, born November 7, 1920 in Amsterdam, Netherlands, describes her apolitical family; her brother; her family’s Jewish friends; how her father was upset with the Dutch government because they didn’t just open their borders to refugees; her work finding foster homes for Jewish children and also hiding Jews; how her family did not know all of what she was doing, which was for their safety; the widespread antisemitism in Holland; being imprisoned for six months in a jail in Amsterdam after being caught with friends who put out an anti-Nazi newssheet; being threatened and intimidated, but not physically abused; leaving Holland in 1945 to work with the United Nations in displaced persons camps in Germany; becoming active with Zionists trying get to Israel; going to the United States in 1947; her thoughts on Elie Wiesel; her husband, who was a liberator at Buchenwald; and her belief that you must do the right thing if you can find out what the right thing is.

    Oral history interview with Mary Barys Szul

    Oral History

    Mary Szul (née Barys), born in 1928, describes being 15 years old and living in a little village in Poland with her mother, brother, and sister at the start of the war; rescuing a total of four people, the first being a widow with two small children, whom they hid in the attic in the summer and in a bunker built under straw in the barn in the winter; being caught by the Germans and being badly beaten then jailed for two weeks; being freed and finding her way home, a 70 mile trek; going to Austria to a displaced persons camp; going in 1948 to Canada, where she found the Jews she had rescued and ended up living with them as family; the reason she got involved in rescue activities; how her rescue activities started in May 1943 and continued for 18 months; her neighbors’ disapproving of her family’s rescue activities when they found out about them after the war; and her life now in London, Ontario.

    Oral history interview with Magda Trocme

    Oral History

    Magda Trocme, born in 1901, describes her rescue activities during WWII in the French village of Le Chambon sur Lignon; Philip Hallie’s book, “Lest innocent blood be shed,” which describes the French village Le Chambon as a safe haven for Jewish escapees; working with the Quakers; one of their first rescued Jews, Hanna Hirsch, and the quasi-underground arrangement for refugees, so that she eventually ended up in Switzerland and then Queens, New York after the war; how the French people got involved with rescue activities and inspired others to help; the daily routine during the war and the large numbers of refugees who were sharing their house; the difficulty in explaining the rescue activities to their children so that the refugees wouldn’t be discovered and how it was a matter of constant problem-solving and resisting in small ways; being very aware of the danger they were in but never considering not helping; her husband’s arrest because he was the organizer of the rescue activities and most responsible; her husband’s release after the war was over; leaving Le Chambon in 1960 and moving first to Versailles and later to Geneva, where her husband was a minister; and visiting Yad Vashem in Israel, where a tree was planted in her husband’s honor.

    Oral history interview with Andrew van Schilfgaarde

    Oral History

    Andrew van Schilfgaarde, born in 1933 in The Hague, Netherlands, describes growing up one of seven children; being members of the Christian Community Church but not being particularly religious or political, though they did vote; having many Jewish friends; being aware of the persecution against Jews as his friends dropped out of school and were deported; the vacated homes being looted or taken over by the Germans; his attempts to listen to the BBC and being caught with a radio, which was a forbidden item; stealing food to survive and selling the food back on the black market; hiding Jews for a few days in the attic before they went on to another house, then to France, and then to England; how his neighbors were a problem because they might report them; the role of resistance groups as the contact point for the rescue activities; how human values change due to starvation; leaving Holland in 1956 and going to the United States; having a landscape business then working in the food and drink business; not discussing his wartime experiences with his wife or friends; his life-philosophy to live day by day; and knowing that the past cannot be changed but something like the Holocaust should never happen again.

    Oral history interview with Ann van Veldhuizen

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Johanna Vos

    Oral History

    Johanna Vos, born December 29, 1909 in Amersfoort, Netherlands, discusses her upbringing and the influence her parents had on her life; her family’s religious background in the Christian Reformed Church; moving frequently as a result of her father’s job as a military officer but living in Leiden for most of her school years; dating a Jewish boy at age seventeen despite her parents’ disapproval; leaving home at age 20 to go to Paris, France; studying at the Sorbonne and working in Paris as a freelance journalist and as a delivery person for a Dutch grocer; marrying a German artist against her parents’ wishes and later divorcing; living in Laren, Holland during World War II; marrying her second husband and having children; becoming involved in activities to help Jews, first by helping her Jewish friends and then joining the Dutch underground; wearing the Star of David in solidarity with the Jewish population; falsifying papers and smuggling the belongings of German Jewish refugees into the Netherlands; serving as a messenger; hiding more than 36 people in her home, most of whom were Jews but some of whom were intellectuals or others targeted by the Nazis; her husband picking up weapons airdropped by Allied forces for the resistance; the killing of an author by the Gestapo and the capture of a fellow member of the underground; being confronted by the Gestapo at her home; facing the challenge of hiding small children who did not fully understand their situation; coping with the mental breakdown of a woman hiding in her home; her husband’s pension through the Stichting 1940-1945 and his suffering from “Twenty Year Syndrome;” and her thoughts about her actions during the war.

    Oral history interview with Theresa Weerstra

    Oral History

    Theresa Weerstra, born August 6, 1907 in Wijckel, Netherlands, describes her father Hans Peopjes, who was a fisherman, and her mother Arendje Roskan; her eight younger siblings, who were all girls; growing up in a family that was not religious but taught her to be generous to everything that is living, from flowers to human beings and never to be prejudiced; living in IJlst in Freisland province when the war broke out; getting married to Martin in 1930 and moving to Chicago, IL that same year during the recession but returning home soon thereafter; living two miles from the Nazi headquarters for the Netherlands; living near a large antisemitic population; taking in an orphaned young Jewish girl, which opened the door to helping many, many more Jews, some of whom she remains in contact with; hiding places they created in their home; housing 18 Jews at one point; receiving help from friends, who got them extra ration cards; delivering a baby born to one of the Jewish couples; the large network of people working in the rescue effort and using codes to relay messages since as there was only one phone in town; and how she is still upset by the Holocaust and does not consider herself a hero.

    View All 30 Items in the Collection