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Oral history interview with Leon Gross and Molly Gross

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1992.A.0128.39 | RG Number: RG-50.165.0039

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    Oral history interview with Leon Gross and Molly Gross
    Transcript
    --that has a sister that they both survived the camps.
    And he wound up in Canada.
    Your wife has a sister?
    Right.
    Was she in Europe, too, your wife?
    Yeah, she's also a survivor.
    She's also a survivor?
    Yeah.
    Please, I want to talk to her.
    Help yourself.
    We want to help you.
    We want to help this cause in any shape or form.
    What I'm doing is I'm focusing more on after the war
    and how the people adapted here.
    Right.
    Because there's so much that has been written on the Holocaust.
    I think it's time also to write something about after the time.
    Yeah, success or failure of after the war.
    Right, the survivors, like my parents,
    like yourself, we didn't just curl up and die after the war.
    And I wouldn't want that 50 years from now,
    survivors' history should end with their liberation
    from the camps.
    It should end with what they did afterwards.
    And I think that that is important.
    I think it's a terrific cause.
    There's never going to be enough written about the Holocaust.
    But we cannot permit what happened to these individuals
    that went through the horrors and concentration camps and what
    happened, how they managed, what happened with their children.
    Where were you born?
    I was born in Poland in a small community near Kielce.
    Kielce.
    It's Congress Poland.
    Where the pogrom was?
    Near Kielce.
    In fact, I was in a forced labor camp
    that turned into a concentration camp.
    Ammunition factory.
    Only maintained about 500 men and women
    of Jewish origin in Kielce.
    That's the place where they had the pogroms.
    Right.
    And you were-- the community that you were born in,
    what was the name of it?
    Pinczow.
    P-- how is it spelled?
    P-I-N-C-Z-O-W. Pinczow.
    Mm-hmm.
    You were born in what year?
    1924.
    And you had how many brothers and sisters?
    I was the oldest in the family.
    And I had five more sisters and brothers.
    One brother and four sisters.
    One brother and four sisters.
    One brother and four sisters?
    Yes.
    They were children.
    Did they make it through the war?
    Nobody survived.
    You're the only one.
    The only one survived.
    And your parents?
    My family were very reasonable, large.
    And they were literally, literally hundreds
    of people that are related.
    Not only related, most of these families were interwoven,
    cousin marriages like in the old New York--
    Your name was Gross then?
    Yes.
    And there is not a trace of anybody that survived.
    Not your parents?
    Not really, no.
    In other words, I interviewed an Alex Gross.
    Well, a good friend of mine in Atlanta.
    Alex, a very successful individual,
    very successful businessman.
    But not related to you.
    He's from Munkacs, Hungary.
    Right.
    Now, he claims he was lucky, but anyway, OK, go ahead.
    Right.
    There are thousands of people named Gross in America.
    Yeah, well, most of them stem from changing of names, too.
    Mine is slightly changed.
    The meaning is the same.
    Instead of G-R-O double S, my original name is G-R-O-J-S.
    But it still means large.
    Which in Yiddish means gross.
    Right.
    Outright, [? grojs, ?] big.
    English term "gross" means a lot of things.
    Probably so, yes.
    Positive, negative.
    [LAUGHS]
    There's also gross pay.
    Right.
    12 dozens, a gross.
    Right.
    Why not?
    And you went to cheder or did--
    Yeah, I went to public school.
    My era in Poland, we were compelled
    to go for up to the age of 15 to school.
    It wasn't observed maybe fully, but it was compelled.
    Observant family?
    Your family was observant?
    Semi-observant family, more the socialistic side.
    My father was a worker.
    Were they Zionistic at all?
    Very Zionistic-oriented.
    Hashomer Hatzair?
    No, I was in Hanoar Hatzioni.
    You know what that is?
    Mm-hmm.
    Yes.
    That's as I say, Yom Kippur, very active.
    Zionist youth group.
    Right, Zionist youth group.
    And did-- what did your father do?
    Well, he came also from a family of six.
    And in his youth, they owned land.
    And he had a flair for land operating.
    And the one that was--
    he learned the trade of fine cabinetmaking.
    But his aims and his pursuit was orchards, fruit orchards.
    Obsthandler, Obsthandler.
    Obsthandler.
    Fruit handler?
    Fruit handler, yes.
    And we used to contract farms one year
    or two years in advance.
    Small, little, poor little Polish peasants
    that had a few trees.
    And we used to pay them some money in advance.
    And we might-- we wound up having maybe 10,
    15 of these obligations to some of these people,
    which was a good season.
    We made a living.
    If it was a bad season, we were starving.
    Was it mostly a Jewish city, this community?
    Yeah.
    Well, I'm sure I don't need to tell you
    that most of the Jewish communities--
    I mean, most of the village cities, so-called cities,
    they were predominantly Jewish.
    Right.
    And the peasants lived in the outlying area.
    Right.
    I paid a visit to my father's hometown in 1972,
    so I got a picture.
    Yeah, we're contemplating-- we're contemplating too,
    sooner or later.
    Although my heart, I'm very sensitive.
    Don't be surprised if it's going to break my heart,
    touching some subject.
    I'm very sensitive, and I'm afraid that I
    won't be able to bear it.
    In fact, I missed an opportunity to go with Gary Rosenberg.
    He is a very powerful psychologist and a very, very
    good friend of ours.
    We were contemplating going, but I wound up
    buying a condominium in Miami, and I
    got stuck, money-wise and time-wise.
    But going along with somebody with this kind of moral support
    would be very, very ideal.
    If I go myself, I'm bound to wind up a failure.
    The trip might wind up-- the trip
    might wind up to be a failure.
    Because I do--
    I am bothered.
    I'm bothered with what transpired
    and how things happened and what happened.
    When-- while I want to discuss more after the war,
    maybe you can tell me briefly where you were during the war.
    OK.
    I wound up to be in Buchenwald.
    And I was in Buchenwald a period of time.
    I was liberated in Buchenwald.
    And from after the liberation, I pursued
    to find some of the family and wind up in Frankfurt am Main.
    Before you were in Buchenwald, where else were you?
    I was in Poland, as I told you, in Kielce, which
    was an ammunition factory.
    And they used me very well.
    And apparently, that helped me survive too,
    because there were many times that I was taken away
    from the group to be executed, to be liquidated because I
    was a puny little thing.
    But the chiefs of the operations always came back and insisted
    that [SPEAKING GERMAN]
    Yeah, for the work.
    Many times.
    You see, the administration of the camp,
    it's going to be like anywhere else-- politics,
    cliquish, clannish.
    I was an outsider.
    It might be of interest to you.
    You see, as young as I was, I was working
    with a Gentile underground.
    It wound up that when the liquidation
    of our little community, I wound up in the woods a day before.
    I wound up in the woods before because there were false alarms.
    And there were, out of 6,000, 7,000 Jews in our community,
    we were 83 people that run away and day before on the tip
    of Gentiles that what's going to happen to the city.
    We were at all the time, all the time
    briefed what is transpiring.
    And we happened to be the ones that believed that this
    is actually happening.
    How come you were tipped off by them?
    Did you have closer relations?
    No, there's a long story that you might not even
    want to go into it.
    I preserve-- I preserve--
    I preserve-- I don't think even this was-- now, like, I
    preserved a starter pistol.
    You know what I'm talking about, a starter pistol?
    Not a shoot pistol.
    Because we were handling these orchards, and kids and people
    used to come and rob us.
    So my father managed to have a starter pistol.
    Couldn't manage-- he couldn't afford
    to have a real pistol, a license.
    We had a starter pistol, which was legal.
    When the Nazis occupied our town,
    my father says, take that pistol and throw it into the river.
    Instead of throwing into the river, I went to the basement,
    and I dug it into the ground.
    And then I showed off--
    To all the surviving, of my surviving, I have one answer.
    It's sheer, sheer luck.
    And it was never meant for me to be executed or die.
    I have one answer to your religion and my religion,
    to any belief that we are born with a number.
    When that number comes up, nothing will happen.
    We die.
    Because I have no really, really good explanation why that puny
    little poor fellow Leon Gross survived
    while intelligent and money-rich people
    and powerful, strong physical people couldn't survive.
    And I survived.
    I was a very, very puny little fellow,
    reserved, introverted, not wild, not wise, not smart, not
    very well educated.
    I survived.
    Other ones who were in the same area didn't survive.
    So I came to a conclusion.
    There is one answer.
    The number was up, you had to go.
    And this gives you a little answer
    to what I tried to explain you.
    I hid it.
    I survived.
    I think, in that way, I was a little brave.
    I also want you to be aware that group sent me off,
    the group that I went to the woods, Jews that
    was supported by Christians.
    I did not have direct contact with the Christians.
    I was organized by the Jewish groups.
    Having that starter pistol was a big deal in the group.
    I wouldn't reveal until I was in, solid in.
    I gave it to them, or I presented to them.
    I was also--
    I was in the woods for a few weeks.
    And that was late in fall.
    Was rough and tough.
    And again, I was a puny little fellow.
    And there were a few older people.
    So the group-- was too much for the group,
    so they sent us off to little remnants of people that were not
    sent out from the towns.
    Our towns were liquidated in one town, in one time, one shot.
    Other towns, they were leaving remnants of people
    to reveal hiding of goods and Jewish businesses
    and materials of all kinds.
    So that group only found one way-- to send us off to a place
    where they were still liquidations to be done.
    Once again, my luck, they had a request
    for people to take to forced labor.
    And I was sort of an unwanted person
    in a small community like this because I was promoting.
    I was promoting sentiment.
    I was promoting revolt against it.
    I was promoting.
    I was spreading the story what happens in Treblinka.
    I knew exactly what's going on in Treblinka.
    What happened in Treblinka?
    Yeah, I knew exactly what happened in Treblinka.
    Already at that time.
    In what year was that?
    In 1942, at the end of the year.
    But where were you spreading this?
    In the village?
    Wherever.
    Yeah, in my town.
    But you had not been taken away yet.
    In any place I went.
    In my town.
    We were organized.
    And we were told what's going on.
    The majority of the population, Jewish population wouldn't
    take it, wouldn't believe it.
    In fact, we were the outcasts for spreading false rumors.
    It was inconceivable by normal people,
    although the conditions were terrible.
    Didn't that infuriate you, fill you with frustration?
    Well, look, we live-- we were still living.
    We ourselves had problems.
    And we had to go between the lines because in some instances,
    we were threatened that we were going to be
    exposed to the authorities.
    By who?
    By Jewish organizations.
    You see, in a lot of these small communities
    in Poland, which is very important to know,
    people were starving, starving, hungry.
    People were sick.
    I had typhoid fever, too.
    But a lot of people, whole family, typhoid fever.
    Nobody died in my family.
    But see, people lived.
    And now and then, the Nazis came around,
    and they murdered here a couple and there a couple there.
    I'm talking about in the area I come from.
    But the community was whole, 6,000,
    7,000 they murdered in the first couple of years.
    They murdered 300, 400, 500.
    And if somebody came and created true statements,
    it appeared to be chaotic, that we're creating chaos.
    And we knew that by taking any action that the city is
    going to suffer.
    So I told the Jewish authorities.
    Tried everything and anything to keep things quiet, peaceful.
    And every moment that a person lived through was precious.
    Most of the population were so [? geared ?] that there is--
    first of all, you have to realize
    that Poland, especially small communities,
    are very, very, very religious.
    And it was inconceivable for these people to accept that God
    is standing somewhere in a corner and cannot do nothing
    about it.
    It was difficult. They claimed-- a lot of claimed this is
    [NON-ENGLISH].
    I don't know if you know what that means.
    Resurrection is coming.
    Messiah is coming.
    That's why we have to go through all this bitter hunger, sickness
    and all.
    And they wind up also, at the very end, if they've
    seen already that they are facing,
    so they claim, if this is God's will,
    this is what we're going to do.
    That was another philosophy, theological philosophy.
    And people like-- they had a little bit of--
    little bit going and advance thinking and accepting things,
    they were not too welcome, not [INAUDIBLE].
    So now, you went to Kielce.
    Now, so In any event, I was a few weeks
    in the woods and the underground.
    That particular group found the most convenience for them.
    And they made a decision that they
    take these puny little ones, and they send us
    to another town, which its name is Dzialoszyce.
    And within a couple of days, within a couple of days,
    the local authorities, Jewish, caught up with maybe
    only maybe 8 or 10 people.
    And they arrested us in.
    Normally, these people were shot.
    Normally, they were shooting daily, left and right people
    that were intercepted.
    My luck was that they needed a few people in Krakow.
    Krakow?
    Krakow and Plaszow.
    It's a very important force.
    They were concentration camps.
    I'm well aware of Plaszow.
    And I lasted in Plaszow three days, and I ran away.
    If you ask me how the camp looked like,
    I couldn't tell you.
    Because when I got there, the next day I went to work.
    And I worked-- right away, they sent me
    to work, which was a few kilometers.
    We had to walk to work.
    And the camp was getting paid for the forced labor.
    So in order to get paid, they issued these walking--
    to these working people time cards.
    When we got in, we gave them the time card.
    When we got out, they gave us back the time card.
    A very important point that I'm making here,
    to prove my theological theory that if the number is up,
    nothing helps.
    Otherwise, you're smart.
    You can be the smartest.
    Nothing will help.
    And that time card I happen to have in my jacket.
    In any event, I was there three days, and I ran away.
    And I went back into the woods, which was about 60,
    70 kilometers.
    Tried to locate the group.
    I couldn't.
    And I was caught by some guys.
    It just wind up that the man in charge that did help Nazis.
    He's a fireman, volunteer fireman.
    And the police, they work with them.
    They worked with them Nazis.
    Maybe under pressure they had to.
    But this guy knew my family.
    And when I was caught by that one individual,
    a lowlife that took me to this particular individual who
    was the chief of the firemen.
    And that fireman recognized me.
    And he told me right away, hey, you're in danger.
    You're going to be so and so.
    So this is an important point.
    I understand.
    My senses drove me--
    came up with these philosophical smartness
    that I never possessed.
    I said, my father is in the woods.
    I wanted to leave a trace, that if he's going to liquidate me,
    somebody behind me.
    I said, I came to get something organized
    in town, some bread, some food.
    And this guy is trying to interfere with me.
    He says, look, you're not allowed to be here.
    And he gave me a wink, and he says--
    he told the other guy to get lost.
    And he told me--
    when the other guy left, he told me, I'm going to let you go.
    And he sent me to [? Biernik, ?] a little town where there was
    only about 60 people out of 10,000 Jews.
    And he told me a name of an individual
    that he knew to go and see him.
    And he knew that this guy was still alive.
    And I did.
    About that incident, about the time cards
    is an interesting story, which is
    very good for your book writing, how things-- how people survive.
    I had to walk 27 kilometers.
    And I was already 3 kilometers from my destination.
    And he stopped me, this farmer.
    He was carrying two pails.
    You know, Europe used to have carriers.
    And I passed the guy.
    And the last moment, he says he's
    going to stop me and find out who the heck I am.
    He recognized that I'm Jewish.
    He was doubtful to stop me.
    Anyhow, I was already tired, scared, and exhausted.
    So I wouldn't run away.
    Normally, I would stop.
    So I walked back.
    And he says, are you Jewish?
    I said, sure.
    What are you doing here?
    I said, I'm a courier for the Nazis.
    What do you mean you're a courier for the Nazis?
    I go like a real wise guy.
    Go through my pack and put in a note.
    There was no more than maybe five, six lines in German.
    I said, this is my document.
    I knew that the damn Pollack is not going
    to know how to read German.
    I knew it.
    But he's going to make believe he knows.
    And I made him believe.
    And he said, no, I cannot believe you.
    I wouldn't believe you because it's hardly any Jews.
    I says, well, let's speed it up, and let's
    go moving because I have to be there in another half an hour,
    and I'm late.
    It was luck.
    You see, the same thing happened the same day in the morning
    that the Christian that I was led to take me to the police,
    I told hi my father's in the woods.
    Never dawned to me, never--
    You wanted to join him.
    So he would be challenged in case he takes me to police.
    And if the war is over, he was-- in other words,
    there was a threat to him.
    If I didn't say that, he would have taken me to the police.
    Why was there a threat to him if your father was in the woods?
    Your father was doing what?
    So supposing my father will survive,
    there's going to be evidence that he took me
    to the police and [? I was shot. ?]
    It was luck that you had the time for it.
    But it was not luck--
    It is-- what I am-- what I am admiring is how ideas came up.
    It's not luck.
    Well, it's not the brightness.
    I was not.
    I have to admit.
    No, it's not brightness.
    What I am admiring is how certain people
    are able to administrate in an emergency.
    And you're one of them.
    Right.
    OK.
    I mean--
    That you had the time card, but you
    know what the Hebrew saying is about mazel.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Be in the right place at the right time,
    and to do something about it.
    See, that might be a good term.
    You come to senses at the right time.
    You took advantage of the opportunities
    that luck gave you.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Well, call it whatever you want.
    I mean, I don't think--
    I don't think that you could do--
    that anybody could have made it through the war without luck.
    Right.
    Some people, when they get lucky,
    they do something about it.
    Others, they don't.
    You thought of yourself to say that this time card means
    that you're a courier.
    You thought it yourself to say that your father was
    in the woods.
    And you decided yourself to escape from the camp
    after a few days.
    Plaszow was a camp run by Jews as well as by Nazis.
    Mostly, right.
    Most of the camp.
    The same thing was in Kielce happened.
    All the forced labor camps.
    It was a terrible camp.
    They had set up-- they had set up--
    they had Jews set up.
    They in turn-- you take--
    not necessarily Jews to forced labor camps.
    Most of the camps.
    In Buchenwald, the administration, you had 60,000,
    70,000 people at the same time.
    I mean, it was a city.
    The internal administration, all the functions
    were done by the people.
    Were you sent from Kielce to Buchenwald?
    Right, well, sometimes explain it.
    Another miracle-- I call them miracles.
    When the Russians were pursuing the Nazis in '44,
    they took us from Kielce.
    And we were rated as good, mechanical-oriented people.
    And that's why the Nazi came down a few times,
    that the interior, the Jewish administration of the camp
    was trying to get rid--
    You see, I was an outcast.
    I was an outsider because I was not from the--
    Kielce, the HASAG, the camp consisted of these Jewish groups
    from three little towns.
    So every group supposed to be 100, 150.
    And they kept themselves like a group.
    Busko-Zdroj, Chmielnik, and Wislica, Vayslits in Yiddish.
    When I was sent from [? Biernik, ?] the guy--
    the guy that--
    Right.
    Suffered the same thing.
    When I came in after the guy stopped me and I told him
    about the document that I had, I stood in that town
    for a few days.
    And I was intercepted by Jewish--
    but mind you, a Jewish lowlife which the Nazis shot.
    And he was an outright outcast.
    And they were shooting same day, days before, people.
    My luck was that they requested from their town, which
    the majority of the camp's people, Jewish people, slaves
    were from Chmielnik.
    They requested from the 60 people
    that still remain some more labor, people for labor.
    And I was latched into these.
    So I was in a camp, an outsider.
    I was from a different town.
    And if they needed to reduce somebody, the first they picked
    is one of these strangers, so-called.
    You see, but the Nazi didn't let me go.
    Why?
    Because I was an efficient worker.
    This is my life, my success in life.
    I had barely any school.
    It didn't have to do with the Holocaust,
    But I worked for one of the big corporations
    in America, in clothing, ladies fashion.
    And now, I outlasted people with doctor degree in engineering.
    I outlasted very high-educated people
    because somehow I applied myself better than most of the people.
    I worked maybe harder, whatever it is.
    Right.
    The same thing applies in the concentration camp.
    He was slapping me every so often as a Jew.
    But every so often, he also gave me a piece of bread.
    And every so often, he saved my life.
    So there was some way in which he came to like you.
    He liked my work.
    He wanted my work.
    He wanted my work.
    He wanted my work.
    There was a place, Skarzysko.
    Right.
    It's exactly the same camp.
    In fact, it's the same company.
    Skarzysko.
    Skarzysko.
    Right.
    And the name of the company was HASAG, Hugo Schneider
    [? Aktiengewerkschaft. ?] And they also
    had an operation in Czestochowa.
    And I tried--
    I'm getting off a little off the track.
    I'm afraid, but I'm tempted.
    I tried to tell you.
    But I tried to tell you is when the Russians were
    running the Germans--
    defeating the Germans.
    They took us-- they wanted to place us into similar work.
    In other words, HASAG, from Skarzysko,
    wanted to place us in Germany to go on with production,
    ammunition production.
    And somehow, they couldn't manage.
    And they took us into a cemetery.
    I couldn't tell you how many we were at that point,
    but we must have been there maybe 200 out of 5.
    And we stood more than a day for making a decision.
    I realized after the war that it was a decision
    either to shoot us or to place us somewhere.
    And they decided that they gave us to dig bunkers, or ditches,
    against Panzer, against tanks.
    And then after a few weeks, somehow the Germans--
    the Russians stopped pushing them hard.
    Somehow, they got organized, and they send us to Czestochowa.
    In Czestochowa, they had exactly the same company
    had also factories.
    And after a very short period of time,
    they sent us to Buchenwald.
    We left Czestochowa the day that the Russians were coming in.
    No, about eight, nine months.
    Eight, nine months.
    Yeah.
    And what were you doing there?
    Once again, sheer luck.
    I was taken to a group that went every day to work.
    We walked a few miles, or sometimes they
    took us by train to Weimar.
    Buchenwald is right near Weimar, about 8, 9 kilometers.
    And we were cleaning the streets.
    That was another facet that made me live through,
    because as we cleaned streets and bombed houses,
    we found food.
    And it was not--
    I was not that hungry most of the time.
    And I was also utilized.
    And in Buchenwald, you stayed in a barracks for workers, right?
    Right.
    Did you see-- you saw people dying?
    We weren't other people--
    there people are like ants.
    We didn't-- things got--
    in my time in Buchenwald, it was not the torture
    that I can report.
    Because I was there at the last-- the end.
    '44.
    Right.
    The conditions-- the conditions were so poor
    because the Nazis themselves were hungry.
    I can verify that the Nazis, if we find food,
    they were looking forward for us to hand them some food.
    Now, this was already the beginning '45 that these
    things--
    if we found potatoes, and we cooked some potatoes,
    they were tickled to death if we slipped them.
    They would sit down, eat with us.
    But if we slipped them--
    How come they didn't grab them from you?
    Embarrassing or God knows what.
    They should be embarrassed?
    Well--
    To take your food?
    They were killing Jews.
    Well, actually, how did we cook them?
    We cooked them in any kind of dish, in a can.
    Whatever we found on the street.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    I mean, to share with the inmates--
    The Untermenschen.
    Untermenschen, right.
    Now, after the war, where did you go?
    Did you go to a DP camp?
    Yes, I was in Landsberg for a very short period of time.
    Because I didn't-- first of all, I had family in America.
    I had my mother's brother was an American.
    And I looked forward to get out.
    I looked forward to make something out of myself.
    I wanted to go to school.
    I did not like what I'd seen in Landsberg.
    I thought there are better things.
    And there were better things.
    What did you see there that you didn't like?
    Well, it was confined.
    It didn't have no contact with the outside.
    People were just sitting around?
    Sitting around.
    And I was 21 years old.
    And I wanted to go to school.
    I was looking at worse to get out.
    I'll find something.
    Find a train or something.
    So we were going on a train.
    We were sleeping.
    I was riding on the roofs of trains.
    Yes.
    I don't know if anybody ever told you that.
    There were trains were so packed with their own.
    Everything was disrupted.
    If there were any trains, they were
    moving at enormous slow speed with all kinds of stops.
    I didn't have no obligation.
    I didn't have no address.
    I didn't have nowhere.
    No country.
    So two or three guys got together.
    And we were going from one place to the other.
    On the way we stopped.
    I had an identity and immigration card,
    if you want to see our immigration card.
    We stopped.
    And local governments were more sympathetic,
    in some cases were sympathetic.
    And they let us have some cards.
    Everything was rationed for food.
    Weren't you afraid when you went on the roof, if you went through
    a tunnel?
    Very good question.
    So dangerous.
    So you lay down.
    There's always room.
    It's good you're a skinny guy.
    No, there was always enough.
    No, it's never-- but you are so right, especially when we
    got out from München.
    And this is the area is already mountainous a little bit.
    And we wouldn't go south.
    We went north, Frankfurt, Wiesbaden.
    We were going that direction.
    I mean, we were going that direction.
    Took us maybe a week, maybe more.
    You were going through the mountains.
    Tell me, did you meet your wife at that point or later?
    No, no, no.
    We met in 1949.
    Where?
    In America?
    In Canada.
    Now, when you-- who brought you over?
    HIAS?
    I came on a--
    I came on a so-called contract to Canada.
    As a laborer.
    No, the institutions-- well, sort of.
    They were hiring.
    Is that how you call it?
    Lumberjack?
    People that are working in the woods.
    Lumberjacks, yes.
    And tailors.
    Institutions did go out of their way
    to sponsor because you just couldn't go to Canada.
    Anyway, you had to have a sponsor.
    Tailoring.
    I was learning tailoring.
    This is never mentioned.
    Where?
    My family came from tailors, except my father.
    My mother's parents were tailors.
    So my mother's a tailor.
    My mother's brother was the master tailor.
    And when the war broke out, I finished public school
    seven years.
    And I started working because it was important.
    If you are a worker, they treat you with forced labor
    or send off to forced labor camps.
    Because it started out with forced labor
    before concentration camps.
    I'm sure you're aware of that.
    At the beginning, the concentration camps
    were for political and for very serious--
    and not for Jews.
    If Jews only that category, intelligence they were after.
    That was concern, not--
    all other ones were created--
    Now, can you see if it did-- did it pick up any?
    So it was advisable and it was practical.
    A little plot.
    It was advisable.
    It was practical to work.
    You were less subjugated to harassment
    and forced labor within the local area.
    They used to take us and do all kinds of stuff.
    I mean, ridiculous stuff.
    So I was--
    I didn't have to comply with it.
    Not comply, but I was left out as a result of working,
    having a trade.
    In any event--
    So who was it that contracted for you here in Canada?
    The Union.
    Which union?
    International Ladies' Garment Workers Union.
    ILG.
    Did they work together with the Joint?
    Right.
    Right.
    OK, this was a way to help.
    It was an accommodation contract.
    Right.
    And I was in a Jewish displaced person camp.
    What year did you come?
    It started in '47.
    I came in the late '47.
    In second year, I was on the boat. '48.
    You left to Canada?
    To Canada.
    Did you leave from Bremerhaven?
    Yes.
    And what was the name of the boat?
    General Sturgis.
    Sturgis.
    Right.
    It's a well known book.
    S-T-U-R-G-I-S.
    Yes, that's the word.
    What was the trip like?
    I have pictures.
    I'm a daredevil.
    I fly a plane.
    You have pictures?
    I go waterskiing.
    I fly a hot air balloon.
    Anything, you name it.
    I go out hunting.
    I go out shooting.
    Mainly because you believe in luck.
    I really don't know.
    No, I mean--
    What I mean is this.
    Do you believe-- it sounds to me like you
    believe as though you've led a charmed life.
    Yeah, I'd love to.
    Yes.
    There's no question about it.
    That there was-- that for some reason--
    I mean, do you feel in some ways,
    like if you do something daredevil,
    I didn't survive the Holocaust to die on some stupid trip.
    I'm going to make it.
    Absolutely.
    Well, it's ego and showmanship.
    You name it, you name it.
    You're right.
    But you have a point.
    You survived much worse.
    Right.
    Now, when you came over on the boat,
    you said you have pictures of the boat?
    Yeah, I have pictures how rough that ocean was.
    And I managed to sneak out from the portholes to make pictures.
    We came in, like I told you, end of December and January.
    And I have pictures where the boat is standing at that level.
    And I made pictures.
    And you had a camera?
    Yes, I had--
    Where'd you get a camera from?
    Don't forget, this was after the war.
    And that was already a couple of years.
    And a camera and a pair of boots, high boots
    was the symbol for a young man in Germany.
    Everybody wanted to carry a camera.
    A camera?
    And not only just a camera, a fancy camera, a Leica.
    Had to be a Leica.
    You had a Leica?
    Right.
    Did you do any--
    We paid-- we paid $40 for that Leica.
    Mind you, I lost the darn thing.
    My son lost it for me.
    Did you do any black marketeering during that?
    No, I worked-- very, very little.
    I worked for the UNRRA, for the immigration set up.
    As what?
    Well, I worked a little bit in the office.
    I was in charged in Zeilsheim, Frankfurt,
    actually in Frankfurt am Main in Zeilsheim.
    I was partially in the police.
    And after the police, I worked in the administration
    supplying heat, made sure that people were not freezing.
    So I had to go out and peddle for wood.
    I didn't have a fancy stove, wood and some coal.
    And I also went--
    I also did have a lot of scoops.
    I had one of the most prominent professors, a Nazi.
    He was an official card holder.
    But Professor [? Sauer. ?] We don't hear from him,
    but he was one of the major discoverers, or inventors,
    in photography that is now being practiced.
    He was telling us that time and improved that.
    He improved technically.
    This Professor [? Sauer ?] was one of the first
    to be able to photograph things beyond the wall, through sound.
    So tell me, you had a camera.
    Right.
    And you had a pair of boots.
    And what kind of boots were they?
    Well, like military boots.
    That was a symbol of a young man.
    You don't have any pictures of yourself in those boots?
    Yeah, no.
    And when you took pictures of the water,
    did you also take pictures of the boat?
    Yes, I have pictures.
    I don't have-- can you-- you know
    where I have these pictures from the boat when I came?
    They're upstairs somewhere.
    I have some.
    But you've seen the pictures.
    Yeah, on the boat.
    You were cooking on the little stirrer thing, the little--
    Yeah.
    If you ever-- if you ever find those pictures--
    You want someone--
    --send them to me.
    I'll try to get them printed in the book.
    Because--
    This is something that came through the United States
    you're talking about?
    Yeah.
    Well, let me ask you about the General Sturgis landed where?
    In Halifax.
    In Halifax, Nova Scotia.
    Right.
    Yeah, I've been there.
    So when you landed in Halifax, what was your first impression?
    Well, first impression was enormous, was terrific,
    was good.
    Very, very happy, naturally.
    I was a serious young man.
    I was always out to--
    perspective-- no, looking for things
    to elevate me to do something.
    You were 24 at the time?
    In '47.
    Yeah, 23, 20-- going on 24.
    Right.
    I did some school.
    Never accredited.
    No evidence in Germany.
    I do have a little diploma, maybe for--
    I have a little diploma of going to a course to--
    not actually-- it's a course.
    It's a thing to train, like designing and pattern-making,
    short course.
    So you came-- from Halifax, you went where?
    To Montreal?
    No, to Toronto.
    To Toronto.
    Right.
    And how long did you stay in Toronto?
    I stayed in Toronto till '54.
    '48 to '54.
    Till '54.
    I found a book here.
    This is the picture from--
    This is going-- this is going--
    this is going-- that was underway to the boat
    in a camp, a special camp.
    And this is from--
    And that old man there was also traveling.
    But where is this?
    This is near Frankfurt, a resettlement center.
    OK, I have a series of these pictures.
    I don't know if-- he's seen these.
    He's seen these.
    Let me see then this one.
    I have looked at these darn things God knows how long.
    This family came on the boat.
    And this is on the boat, actually.
    But I'm going to look up some pictures.
    This was in-- what happened?
    These pictures are of Bremerhaven.
    On the way to the boat.
    Because Bremerhaven, the boat is anchored quite a distance
    from the Bremerhaven.
    This is a picture.
    I actually cannot substantiate anything.
    This is my first picture in Buchenwald.
    This is a barrack in Buchenwald.
    But again, it doesn't give you that much.
    Tell me, where are you in this picture?
    In the back.
    That was maybe three or four weeks after.
    That's not in Buchenwald.
    I haven't looked at these pictures in God knows how long.
    Let's see.
    But I wouldn't want-- you couldn't send me a picture.
    That's your only copy.
    Is there a way in which today they
    can make a copy of a picture like this?
    But this is on the boat, a family of good friends of mine.
    It's a very interesting picture.
    Yeah.
    And I can name the names.
    And I can tell you what it is.
    Who are they?
    Mr. And Mrs. [? Cohen. ?] He's a manufacturer
    in Toronto, a manufacturer-- clothing manufacturer.
    Let's see.
    No, we don't-- you don't have these pictures I'm talking
    about.
    What's he doing in this picture?
    He's a tailor.
    And he had a little baby.
    Is the baby in there, too?
    [? Adam ?] [? Cohen. ?] Is the baby there, too?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    He doesn't come out--
    still visits.
    Yeah.
    OK, let me go on a little further to this question.
    You worked in Toronto for how long?
    Six years.
    Six years.
    And then where did you live?
    See, being that I married Molly in 1951,
    and she had a fantastic relationship with her sister,
    they both survived in similar circumstances that I did--
    she was in one of the camps--
    that they even named their camp the Puppen camp.
    Puppe camp.
    That means the beauties.
    Beautiful?
    Puppen.
    Dolls.
    Yeah, a doll camp.
    Puppenlager.
    Puppenlager.
    They had 100 girls.
    They picked up the--
    I'm not going to brag, but they picked out
    the most-- the nicest-looking girls for that.
    For 100 girls, they picked out from--
    In town.
    I mean that particular town at that particular time.
    Where?
    What town?
    This was-- well, I was from Bedzin, Poland.
    Oh, from Bedzin.
    And then this was Sosnowiec was a Durchgangslager.
    They used to come there and bring all the people there.
    From there, they selected the different camps.
    So they picked out 100 girls for this particular camp.
    100.
    So they picked out--
    I was a young kid, but I stood on my toes behind my sister.
    And I looked up, and I looked nice.
    So they picked 1, 2, 3.
    Just pointed.
    What year were you born?
    Pardon me?
    What year were you born?
    '28.
    1928.
    '28.
    And so you were 13 or 14.
    14, 15.
    Yeah.
    And who else was there besides your sister?
    My sister.
    Did you have other brothers?
    I have two brothers in Canada.
    I have two brothers in Canada from before the war.
    They came in 19--
    Before the war?
    Yeah, 1930 and one came 1935.
    So they were here before the war.
    They did not go through the Holocaust.
    And of course, we were at home, my parents and two more brothers
    and my sister.
    It was four kids left, and two were in Canada.
    So there were six altogether.
    And two didn't make it.
    Two didn't make it.
    One was shot in concentration camp.
    And one evacuated at the beginning of when
    the war broke out in '39.
    He evacuated to Russia.
    In other words, they were--
    how do you say it?
    They were evacuating.
    And they went as far as Russia, and they remained there.
    And I have never heard from him since.
    You think he might be alive?
    I don't know.
    I don't think so.
    If he would, he would have been in touch with my brothers
    because he knew that we have brothers in Canada.
    Your parents didn't make it.
    My parents didn't make it.
    My parents perished in Auschwitz.
    And my sister and I were the only one that survived in camp.
    Do you know a family named [? Nagrocki? ?] Through Bedzin?
    Bedzin?
    No.
    They lived-- I just thought there
    are a couple of common points that I
    thought I would make for you.
    One is that they were from around Bedzin,
    though they worked there.
    The other is-- they live in Birmingham.
    Simon [? Nagrocki, ?] the tailor.
    Oil has to be applied all the time,
    otherwise the tools will burn.
    All the dies and everything would burn.
    Can you believe it?
    We were working with these machines,
    and that oil always spraying.
    And naturally, it got on your body.
    We hardly took a hot bath, hardly changed clothes.
    So a lot of them rotting away.
    Naturally, it's been all these years, so many years,
    so it healed up.
    I was a young man.
    But if you look well in, or a doctor, if I go
    to a skin doctor, he appreciates.
    He can tell.
    And I have holes all over my body.
    And at one time or another, they were all infected.
    From that oil.
    From the oil and the unclean, unsanitary conditions.
    Lucky you made it.
    I was lucky.
    Yeah, but I managed to help myself.
    One way or other.
    Risk sometimes, risk life.
    What did you do in Canada, practice?
    Tailor, in tailoring.
    You see, again, I was a poor little tailor.
    And the Canadian industry, from ladies garments,
    made a point to help anybody showed--
    it was a good excuse to get people out.
    Was it a Jewish industry?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    And were the Jews there nice to you?
    Exceptional.
    I have no-- I cannot take no--
    people were looking at us odd at various times.
    Some people were critical.
    Critical.
    Some people suspected that only a survivor
    could be a collaborator or nothing, or things
    of that nature.
    Do you ever get the feeling that some people are talking
    about that, that they feel that people look at them
    and say, what did you have to do to survive?
    Right.
    Well, you also have to realize that unfortunately, you
    have to admit, including myself, I'm not a scholar.
    I didn't go through--
    I didn't go through diplomas or university and things like that.
    So our knowledge was limited.
    And the old-time immigrants, unfortunately,
    have to admit, most of the people that came to the United
    States or Canada where they were forced out,
    we like to think it's because of freedom and discrimination.
    But people didn't make a living.
    People were so low key, so low in intelligence.
    And they came to the United States
    and worked day and night to make a success, driving a--
    not driving a car, driving a horse and buggy
    and pushing a push cart.
    Let's face it.
    Now, what do you expect from these people to think?
    How come my family perished and you little thing,
    how did you manage unless you worked with them?
    That was the easiest way to explain why one survived
    and the other one didn't.
    And when you think back about it,
    what do you think was the key ingredient to surviving is luck?
    Period.
    You don't have any question.
    Yeah.
    Well, you must have another album somewhere
    with pictures from the camp.
    We have little pictures, too.
    OK, I'll look.
    Yeah, yeah.
    I'm very interested in--
    I wish I would have prepared that before.
    Go ahead.
    What about the survivors who are not Jewish?
    How did they relate to you?
    Most of us, most immigrants that came to this country,
    I'm not no spokesman for survivors or for immigrants.
    Where do they wind up?
    We wind up in ghettos.
    We hardly had anything--
    Jewish areas.
    Jewish areas.
    Did you live around Bathurst Street?
    You better believe it.
    Bathurst and College, was Spadina and College.
    You also have to realize it's 40 years ago.
    I'm going to be speaking there for Holocaust commemoration week
    next month.
    Really?
    And I was in--
    I spoke in Toronto two months ago.
    I speak maybe 30 times a year.
    Not on this subject necessarily, on other books or whatever else
    I do.
    I think one of the people here knew--
    [INAUDIBLE] somebody there knew other stuff
    I had written in a different area.
    And one of those little [INAUDIBLE]
    In wintertime, they--
    I know that Bathurst was a Jewish area.
    I still remember seeing Hasidic kids
    ice skating on Bathurst Street in one of those little parks.
    Yeah, in winter time, the community--
    Right.
    I'll tell you, Bathurst and Dundas,
    there is on Bathurst and Dundas.
    They had a little ice skating ring.
    So what prompted your departure from there?
    Why did you leave?
    You see, being that Molly survived with her sister,
    and their relationship is uniquely sister-like,
    and being that her brothers that managed to escape before
    the Holocaust to Canada lived far away from civili--
    I call it civilization, although it's pretty civilized,
    in Edmonton, Alberta, we felt, or she
    felt, that she wants to be close to her, either the brothers
    or sisters.
    And she chooses her sister because it
    was the right choosing, that I can verify today
    after all these years.
    And we got to live close after what we went through.
    Look where we wound up.
    And my sister's in Philadelphia, and I'm here.
    OK, we got--
    At that time, they were in Edmonton?
    No, no, no.
    we-- OK, we were in a displaced person camp.
    And my sister married there.
    And I was still single.
    I came to my brothers to Canada.
    I came on the paper, the--
    Immigration paper.
    --papers.
    My sister came through the HIAS.
    As a displaced person.
    I came as a--
    As an immigrant.
    Not as a displaced person.
    On the privileged quota.
    Because?
    I came as a child, in other words,
    as a young kid to a brother.
    Single.
    As a dependent.
    Dependent, yeah.
    Right.
    And my sister was married already, so.
    And my brother-in-law was born in France, in Paris.
    So he came under the--
    Privileged quota.
    The French quota.
    I was on the Polish quota.
    She came up on the French quota, and she
    went to the United States.
    And the French quota is privileged.
    We didn't know that when you go to the United States,
    we will go to Canada.
    Well, it's only across the border.
    So you move over there.
    What's the difference?
    But when we came, we realized that have
    to wait for your quota.
    You have to wait five years or more until you get your visa.
    So she remained in Philadelphia, and I remained in Edmonton.
    And after a while, about two, three years later,
    we went to visit my sister.
    And we met in Toronto.
    And that's when we got married in Toronto.
    And then we decided that we were--
    It's like a crazy coincidence that you live near Edmonton.
    Yeah.
    There's a place near Edmonton called Jasper.
    And there's a place near here called Jasper.
    Right, right.
    Jasper.
    Two different-- but I was in Jasper in--
    and do you know something else?
    Quite a few, like 15, 20 survivors were sent to Jasper.
    I wrote on it.
    I don't think any of them remain.
    And if you know of any, I'd be very interested.
    No.
    We don't know anybody in Jasper.
    But you see that everybody who was sent--
    like I wrote on it.
    In Birmingham, for example, you see--
    We know [? Dora. ?]
    [? Dora. ?]
    [? Veselin? ?]
    Yes, very good.
    How do you know her?
    Well--
    We made a point to look for people that we
    have something in common.
    We went-- in fact, we went together to Atlanta.
    She also worked with ammunition, I think.
    I don't know.
    He is a very--
    how should I say?
    First of all, he--
    difficult with him to be lively.
    He's always, always peaceful, quiet, don't bother me.
    I love to go and love to talk and love to--
    He's not an outgoing person.
    Right.
    So we gave up a little bit on him.
    You have to realize also, we met him about five years ago.
    And for the last three years ago-- for the last three years,
    I'm not local at all.
    I come and go.
    I just came from Philadelphia.
    I'm going back to Philadelphia.
    And so it's difficult.
    This is a very small town.
    We're the only survivors.
    And survivors kind of stick together not because--
    but they have something in common.
    Go ahead.
    |
    Something more in common than.
    And this Tuscaloosa, we've been here for, what, 17 years?
    17 years?
    And it's been our home.
    But we never got too close to anybody.
    Hasn't it been difficult for you here?
    It was at the beginning because of the children.
    My son remained.
    We used to live in Philadelphia.
    My son remained in Philadelphia.
    Went to college.
    He didn't want to leave because he didn't want to lose
    the credits or whatever.
    He remained there, and I brought my daughter here,
    brought her here.
    She was 12 years old.
    And she went to a junior high school
    here, high school, college, and medical school.
    In fact, she just graduated Saturday.
    She became a doctor.
    Mazel tov.
    Thank you.
    Where did she go to, the University of Alabama?
    Yes.
    No.
    Yes, she went to UAB, in Birmingham.
    Tuscaloosa and Birmingham.
    It's one campus.
    Is she married?
    She's married.
    She's married a doctor.
    And now she's--
    Where do they live?
    They married in Birmingham.
    And--
    He's from Birmingham?
    He's from Mobile, Alabama.
    From Mobile.
    Jewish?
    Yes, Jewish boy.
    And he is-- he's an OB/GYN, gynecology.
    And he's doing his second year of residency already.
    And she finished her school here and did all her rotations
    here and in Birmingham.
    And she graduated Sunday from UAB,
    from Birmingham Civic Center.
    Thus we had two graduation.
    And she's now in Memphis.
    And she's doing her rotation pathology.
    And your son is--
    My son--
    How many children do you have?
    I have two.
    Two.
    My son lives in Philadelphia-- in New Jersey, actually.
    He's older?
    He's older.
    He's 6 and 1/2 years older.
    And he is also in the medical field.
    He is in blood banking.
    He's a specialist in blood banking and--
    Where is that?
    In Cherry Hill?
    Yes.
    He lives in Cherry Hill.
    Is that near Philadelphia?
    Right.
    Yeah, he lives in Malton.
    But it's close-- it's close-- they're both-- across the street
    is Cherry Hill.
    And he works in Philadelphia.
    He's running a lab there in the hospital.
    Manager of a lab, and he's doing all the [INAUDIBLE]
    and forgot the name.
    And he's married?
    He's married.
    He has two children.
    Who did he marry?
    He married an American girl.
    American girl.
    From Philadelphia, his high school sweetheart.
    And they've been married for 11 years.
    Also Jewish?
    Yes.
    But American?
    American, yes.
    Not--
    Had to be Jewish.
    Not a survivor.
    Had to be Jewish.
    What if it hadn't been?
    Would be a very serious problem.
    [LAUGHS]
    But when you live in Tuscaloosa--
    And yet I'll tell you--
    The odds increase.
    And yet I'll tell-- the odds increase.
    But my kids, I'm proud of them.
    And I'm not claiming all the credit.
    This guy is a very sharp guy.
    Who?
    Not him.
    But we know a [? Schnapper ?] in Philadelphia,
    which has been president of the Holocaust survivors.
    It's not the same.
    I know.
    In and out.
    I know it's not the same.
    But [? Schnapper ?] is a very odd name.
    Could be relative.
    You have a Gross there, Michael Gross.
    Who is that, Michael Gross?
    Chicago.
    Who is from Atlanta, Gross?
    Chicago, you said.
    Huh?
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Yeah, that's from Chicago.
    Right.
    Of course.
    No, no.
    He interviewed-- he interviewed Gross in Atlanta.
    Henry [? Eisenbahn, ?] you know him?
    Very familiar.
    From where?
    He's around Birmingham.
    Jewelry.
    Yeah, well, you see, we met these people.
    Wiesenthal was here, and he and the community
    got together all the survivors.
    Wiesenthal, the community made a point.
    They honored Wiesenthal in Birmingham.
    They also honored the survivors and the liberators.
    There were quite a few liberators.
    It was a fantastic evening.
    And they had a lot of--
    These kind of guys you'd like to talk to.
    They were fantastic.
    Yeah, military, some of them with ranks.
    What was it like when you met the liberators?
    Oh, fantastic.
    It was a fantastic feeling.
    They brought albums of pictures that were taken after the war
    as they were liberating, beautiful pictures.
    And they're Birmingham or Alabama residents?
    They're around there.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Fairly around.
    We didn't know.
    Who found them?
    They looked into them.
    Who found the survivors to have enough--
    Well, the word gets--
    the word gets through fast.
    Yeah.
    Sure, the word gets through.
    I mean, they--
    Tell me, you started to say something about--
    so it's tough to have an outcome that your kids would marry Jews
    living in a place like here.
    People live in big cities like Chicago
    and their kids marry out of the faith.
    In Atlanta--
    Well, it's true.
    Again, I mean, the world doesn't come to an end,
    but I am very, very Jewish-oriented, motivated.
    And I cannot tolerate, sell away my Jewishness for anything.
    You can buy my religion for next to nothing.
    But the identity-- and I like to put this in writing all
    the time--
    that we must-- we are forced.
    We cannot compromise with our Jewishness because sooner
    or later, if my daughter was converted,
    if not this generation, next generation,
    they're going to dig him up for the grave and throw them
    to the dogs like they did in Germany and Austria.
    Whether you want it or not, you got to stick to your own.
    Not because of religion, because the nature of this world
    demands that you stay where you belong.
    You don't belong nowhere else.
    Unfortunate or fortunate.
    The Nazis were digging people out of the grave.
    Fourth, fifth generation.
    And this is bound to repeat itself.
    And I wouldn't give it to Hitlerism
    to eradicate my background, my heritage.
    You think that if there had been no antisemitism
    you would still identify as a Jew?
    Maybe not.
    Maybe not.
    I'm looking for humanism.
    It's not available all the way.
    Do you go to temple?
    Yeah, I do very much.
    I support it.
    If I want to be the big chief, they'll
    make me the big chief at temple.
    What kind of temple is it?
    It's a Reform.
    I support Reform temple.
    Because if I won't support the Reform temple, nobody will.
    As a Jew.
    Yeah, if I won't support what's available, I don't like it,
    fine.
    But if I say I don't like you and pick a bone with it,
    who's going to support it?
    Who's going to speak up?
    Tell me a little about Tuscaloosa.
    How many Jews live in Tuscaloosa?
    You have in Tuscaloosa a couple of 100 Jews, for sure.
    There's maybe 70, 80 supporting-- partly supporting
    or supporting the temple.
    The rest don't do anything?
    The rest are assimilated?
    Right.
    Most of the Jews here are integrated.
    In other words, they are Americans.
    Don't be offended.
    The intelligentsia, unfortunately,
    will compromise and shy away.
    Let's face it.
    They're intermarried.
    If the wife is Jewish, then the man is not Jewish.
    OK.
    I feel-- I feel it's a must because it's not what I want.
    The world wants it that way.
    We have a lot of converts here.
    A lot.
    Yeah, I feel that--
    are you suspicious?
    After all, when they're converts,
    they still bring together family that
    didn't convert, their family, their cousins, their brothers.
    I am a very small individual.
    I cannot dictate.
    And I'm not angry.
    I'm critical.
    But there's a difference.
    I think there's a difference between angry
    and being critical.
    I cannot see no way out but stick to my heritage
    because of what I experienced in my life.
    My experiences lead me to believe that religion,
    to some extent, I didn't--
    I don't deny complete religion, but I do-- generally I do--
    is responsible for what happened to Jews.
    The churches were promoting.
    And I like to put it in writing, if I could.
    The churches were promoting antisemitism in my time,
    and, from what I learned, before my time.
    They were passive.
    They had the power.
    They were strong enough.
    They could have promoted.
    They could have helped.
    And they didn't.
    And I don't think they will change yet.
    And I cannot see where it's going to change.
    So religion, as far as I'm concerned, was good 5,000,
    4,000, 3,000 years ago.
    But once they broke up, once the world
    got a little more scientifically knowledgeable in transportation,
    communication, and then you start
    getting Buddhism and Catholicism and naturally our religion,
    from whatever was good for the existence
    of the so-called civilized animal,
    it turned to be a disaster.
    Do you think there's a God out there?
    You know what?
    I do believe if there is, I am supporting in a way
    Harold Kushner's philosophy.
    If he is, we cannot hold him responsible for everything
    that's happening on this ground, on this earth.
    He can help us.
    But most of the religion are leaving it to the God,
    whether Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or our God.
    And there's no way that I can support and promote
    this thought.
    Because what happened, and if God permit to do,
    well, he is no good.
    So if he exists, how could he permit?
    Well, again, he was not the authority and the full power
    to help.
    He is there.
    He can be of great help.
    And if--
    You don't think he interferes?
    He is not-- he's not-- he's not powerful enough to lead
    the world for a better world.
    Because it's not better than it was.
    If he was powerful enough to create it,
    why wouldn't he be powerful enough to lead it?
    It was created.
    If it was created by a superpower of God
    or anything in that area, it is not--
    it was not done with perfection to run it.
    Like a human-- like a human--
    like a superhuman, like a father.
    Supposed to be my father.
    If my father will keep slapping me every day
    and cut me to pieces and murder--
    being six in the family and murder every day another kid,
    now, what am I going to think of my father?
    Supposed to be my father.
    What did you do to me?
    So in a sense, you believe because you can't take the idea
    that he would do--
    I would like to believe.
    I would like to believe, but I cannot believe.
    I cannot believe from what I've seen,
    from what I've lived through.
    With the permission of a superpower,
    Jesus Christ of God or Buddha or whoever it is, Muhammad,
    how in the world, if you have power,
    just because Joe Blow is sinning,
    take little children by the legs and hit them against a post?
    If at one time or another, if these guys were paralyzed,
    if one time or another somebody would show up from heaven
    and say, well, that's the end of it, that's enough,
    how can I keep subscribing to a myth that
    has done things of that nature?
    I'm stunning a lot of Christian clergymen.
    I speak in the universities.
    And I pick that subject.
    And everybody is gobbling it up graciously.
    There is no way.
    I mean, it's simple for bystanders.
    Well, the world is sinning.
    The world is sinning, and the world is going to pay the price.
    Price of what?
    Why don't you go first and pick up all these most miserable
    people that do all these things in the world and put them
    to sleep or cripple them that they cannot do it?
    Or show me one time that you've done it.
    Scare these people.
    You're coming to all Jewish people that
    devoted in Poland their life as big segment, I would say 60%,
    70% of the Polish population were
    living for nothing but for God.
    Every moment of the day, they lived with God.
    Not just lived.
    They were thinking God and talking to God
    and pleading with God and praying with God.
    A lifetime, 70, 80 years old people that never in their life
    committed a sin.
    And you take and put them to sleep in gas chamber?
    What's interesting is that many of them still believe.
    Even if they did it.
    In others words, you talk to the Jews after the war--
    You're right.
    I mean, I don't know your way of thinking.
    You're right.
    They're still thinking.
    I cannot-- I cannot accept,
    I'm not supporting them.
    I'm just saying--
    I cannot.
    I cannot accept it.
    And the majority of intelligent people
    that I take this course, not here.
    Some of them are sympathetic with my past
    and will not argue with me.
    I take a strong position, and I cannot see where--
    I came across only a few months ago Harold Kushner.
    I hope you know who I'm talking about.
    When good things-- When Bad Things Happen To Good People.
    OK?
    I had seen him on the Christian programs on the television.
    And I had seen him.
    That was something that I really liked.
    And since then, I subscribe that if there is a God,
    and there might be a God, that probably--
    There is a God.
    There is a God.
    OK, I'll give it.
    There is a God.
    If he is responsible, he's no good.
    But if his theological explanation stands,
    I can subscribe to it.
    Namely, that what?
    That God created the world, and he was giving us to manage it.
    And if we manage it right, if we have a little problem,
    we come to him, he'll try to help us.
    We cannot depend that he is going to lead us and he's going
    to do it for us like we always believed.
    Like, religious people believe he is actually doing,
    he's taking care of it.
    He's not.
    I'm going to have to take care of myself.
    He's going to help me.
    Of course, if we do a bad job of managing it
    and innocent people suffer--
    How many and at what rate and in what fashion?
    In what fashion?
    The world is sinning.
    They came in and tried to murder all the Jews
    and murdered a third of the Jewish population
    because Joe Blow or somebody was--
    And if this is with anything responsible--
    I mean, I can be punished for what I'm saying right here.
    My God, go ahead, kill me.
    But I cannot accept it.
    But he's not an atheist either.
    Well, that's pretty close to it.
    No, he's not.
    Call it-- don't look for excuse for me.
    No, no.
    I'm responsible for what I say.
    I'm an old man.
    I do debate.
    I do debate.
    And no matter which way, I throw the coin,
    it comes to the same thing.
    It is beyond--
    I cannot dictate to God.
    But you're asking me a question, I got to tell you.
    I don't go around and talk on the subject every day
    and profess every day what I'm trying to reveal to you.
    What are your activities here?
    You said you spoke at the university.
    We talk on the subject.
    I answer--
    Where are the papers and interviews?
    Oh, no, they're [? doing ?] someone.
    They interviewed you here?
    Oh, here.
    Right here I did an interview.
    They say.
    This is clever.
    It's good.
    Good for your interview.
    You came all the way from New York to interview me.
    Let me give you a version of the [? Clem ?] County people.
    Doing what?
    I came down here in '73.
    From?
    Philadelphia.
    As a manager of a plant that has about 300 or 350 people.
    Fine-- manufacturing.
    Strictly manufacturing.
    Fine, fine ladies apparel.
    Very, very prominent.
    Beg your pardon?
    Remember, [? a people sale were? ?]
    Well, it's [? Janet ?] and [? Logan, a ?] very prominent
    company out of New York.
    Within these 350 people, there were
    a number of people that have never, never seen a Jew.
    At least, they insisted that they had never
    dealings with Jews.
    Even though the company's owned by Jews.
    Right.
    And they were admiring, here comes with an accent.
    And a big segment of these people feel, to this very day,
    that we are the chosen.
    It is true that at no time, at no time
    did I reveal my identity, how I feel about things.
    But I did identify myself very strongly Jewish, very strongly
    Jewish.
    And I did tell them about what happened,
    in general terms, what happened in the world,
    in Europe, especially in my experience.
    The subject was always touched.
    And what is so interesting is that a very big percentage
    will tip their hats for a Jew, not knowing him or knowing him,
    and feel that we still are the leaders in religion,
    in their religion.
    We are.
    They insist we are the chosen.
    And there's a big, I would say, sympathy,
    sympathy in the churches for Jewish religion.
    OK, now, on the other hand, if you
    want to talk about antisemitism, it
    is on a very small scale from my observations.
    I never felt in Tuscaloosa, living here 16 years,
    I don't-- never felt any bigotry.
    I could go into some detail on these things,
    but I don't think it's the time for it or the time.
    It's something I'm very interested in.
    My assistant, my assistant, my right hand
    was a sister-in-law to the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.
    Your assistant?
    For 15 years.
    At no time would I, could I detect
    or did I detect antisemitism behavior, antisemitic behavior.
    Do you think maybe she didn't agree with her brother-in-law?
    No.
    She never-- we never had an antisemitic problem, period.
    By the way, if you want to say something,
    I don't use names unless you give me written permission.
    That means everything that I would
    publish you would see first.
    I'd rather get the story and know it anonymously than not
    get the story.
    So if something happened--
    The grand wizard, the old-time known guy in the Ku Klux--
    Shelton.
    Yeah, Bobby Shelton.
    Robert Shelton.
    I met the guy.
    I didn't have a conversation with him.
    I met him at a funeral to that lady.
    Lady's mother died, or his mother-in-law died.
    And I met the guy.
    We shook hands with.
    Would she ever talk to you about the Klan?
    Not really.
    So you don't know--
    I mean, she probably was careful with you, right?
    Right.
    I made a point with my staff--
    that time, we had a staff of 20 people.
    And I made a point, who I am and what I stand for.
    And I put it point blank.
    It's a business, and there is no room
    for any discrimination, Black or white or Jew or non-Jew.
    And it stuck for 16 years.
    Well, maybe because it's parnasah,
    they would keep their views out of it.
    But you don't know what they thought.
    I mean, did she invite you to her home?
    Yeah, I was-- yeah, many times.
    Socializing.
    We are parted, and I go fishing with her man.
    You are parted?
    We are parted.
    I'm not working.
    I'm retired.
    Right.
    You go fishing with her husband.
    And I called up, and.
    I go fishing with her husband.
    He comes and pick us up.
    What is the relation?
    Her sister was married to Shelton?
    Right.
    Is he still alive, Shelton?
    Yes.
    And does he live here?
    Yes.
    Tuscaloosa?
    Yes.
    He was in jail, too, for a period of time,
    before my coming.
    And when you go fishing with the guy, you never discuss religion?
    I suspect that they are sympathetic in a way,
    or they will not--
    they will not say anything to harm their family
    relationship, period.
    They wouldn't want to go into a discussion on that.
    Therefore, we never motivate this kind of a discussion.
    I had discussions.
    I invited people that work for me to my speeches
    pertaining to the Holocaust at the university.
    And they came?
    Some of them came.
    Do you think that some of these people
    might be Klan sympathizers or members?
    I made a point.
    I made sure that these people are--
    I was just going to say that when
    he came to here, to [INAUDIBLE], and he found out
    that she was their sister-in-law,
    he took her in the office, and he plainly told her,
    I'm Jewish and this and that.
    I put it--
    What did you tell them?
    I put it right in the front that I happen to be Jewish.
    Holocaust survivor.
    And I'm aware that you are a sister-in-law of Bobby Shelton.
    And there's just no room for any nonsense.
    Because if you want to stay in the job, politics of any kind--
    you have to realize we had a lot of-- we have 20%--
    We are obligated to have 20 and more percent Black.
    By federal law.
    And if there was any discrimination,
    it has to stop because it's going to be enforced.
    And I had a full power over 300 people.
    When did you tell them this?
    Their first day when I came to work.
    1973.
    Yes.
    I was informed--
    At that time, the Klan was even stronger.
    It was closer to the civil rights business.
    Not really.
    Why?
    Well, I have never seen the Klan.
    Was it in '68 when Wallace was standing and not permitting--
    Earlier.
    '65, '4.
    I know they marched Selma in '65.
    No, but you know he stood in the front of the university
    and didn't permit--
    I forgot the names.
    And this was a few years later, and I--
    see, the antisemitism--
    He just told her that he's the boss here, not--
    Right.
    You told her there's no room for any antisemitism.
    No room for nonsense.
    What did she say?
    She agreed.
    She says--
    What did she say?
    She says, we are here to work, not to play politics,
    not to have--
    they pledged to work with me.
    Let me ask you, what was her job?
    She did my work.
    I was the boss.
    But what work?
    Let's say to manage an operation of over 300 people
    takes a lot of effort and a lot of doing,
    keeping records, checking what people do, checking needs.
    Right.
    But she was not a worker.
    She was-- no, she was a supervisor.
    She was a supervisor.
    Right.
    That's I say she was my right hand.
    Normally, people have assistants.
    She never had a title of assistant.
    She was not pressing herself.
    And the company wouldn't offer it.
    OK, most of the plants had assistants.
    I hardly have enough assistants.
    So what she was was a supervisor.
    She was a supervisor.
    Was she a nice person?
    A very, very practical--
    She's a nice person.
    But because we know who she is, we always
    think that she's an antisemite or whatever.
    No--
    I'm always afraid.
    I was always watching.
    I was always watching.
    I was always watching.
    She'd hug me.
    Hi, Molly.
    No, but I did not believe it.
    That's the way it is in the South.
    In the South, everybody hugs you and kisses you and smiles.
    Miss Molly.
    I lived in Georgia.
    You lived in Georgia?
    Where did you live in Georgia?
    I don't [? talk good. ?]
    My first teaching job.
    Oh, you do live or you live?
    I did.
    He did.
    But I mean, I know the South.
    I went to school in Missouri for four years.
    Well, so you have a pretty good feel for it.
    She is a very--
    I've also been in those kinds of factories.
    She's an authoritative individual.
    She was a person-- in fact--
    in fact, she operates-- she is managing only a fraction,
    1/10 the size operation here already for three years,
    four years.
    And she's doing a good job.
    And when I see her, when I go in to see her,
    she's crazy about Leon, Mr. Gross.
    And I have--
    But I don't trust her.
    You can't trust her.
    I can't because I know who she is.
    I just can't.
    Well, I always--
    I was always looking out who I'm dealing with
    and what I'm dealing with.
    And I'm looking for a fight.
    In other words, if you smelled some antisemitism,
    you'd make an issue of it.
    You wouldn't let it go by.
    I had one guy.
    I had a worker, an ordinary worker.
    He was a young kid.
    And I treated him.
    And I made a--
    I made a mistake for quite a few years.
    He worked in my place.
    And he did work with the Ku Klux Klan.
    But he was an ordinary worker.
    I could have taken-- thrown him the hell out any time,
    all the time.
    When I found out--
    And this is organized labor.
    The first thing you label is discrimination all kind of job.
    But I gave him the [? rep ?] [? vest. ?] That's the only
    time.
    There's only one young man that I
    had to dispose of from the position.
    But I took the fight.
    And I handled it.
    And he had to go.
    Why?
    What he had--
    He had to go.
    Why did you have to expel him?
    Because you knew he was in the--
    He was the best worker in the world.
    But he was a Ku Klux Klan.
    And I wouldn't want--
    I wouldn't want to provide a living for the guy.
    He didn't say anything antisemitic, did he?
    No, he didn't.
    Never, never offended me.
    He came in here, cut my lawn.
    Afterwards?
    No, no.
    We didn't know.
    We didn't know.
    How did he was an organizer?
    Did you see him organize?
    A Black guy.
    A Black guy found out.
    There were times that he's hesitant.
    If I ask him to--
    don't you see, it's a matter of making a living.
    This young man was getting paid.
    He was a salary, not a time worker.
    Our industry is based on piecework.
    Piecework.
    OK.
    Well, he was a cutter, which is a little upgraded job.
    And most cutters are working big time.
    If we in season, if we run out of season, at certain times,
    we have no work, I always tried to give him
    some work, an extra dollar.
    OK, I looked out for the guy.
    But I asked him for things like private
    to come and cut my lawn or a paint job or something
    like that.
    He was not too keen.
    And as a result, I was tipped off
    that he belongs to the Ku Klux Klan.
    Period.
    And he was only maybe 22, 23 years old.
    And I went right out.
    I didn't give him no more extras.
    I only gave him what I had to give him.
    And I didn't even give him what I had to give him.
    He had to go.
    Did you tell him?
    You gave him some excuse?
    You see, I personally don't handle it.
    [? Margaret, ?] she had to handle it.
    The girl had to.
    This girl had to handle it.
    This girl?
    Right.
    But she didn't know why you were doing it?
    I don't think so.
    No, she probably understood.
    She suspected.
    She probably suspected.
    They didn't have enough work.
    They laid him off.
    Don't you think-- what about [? Margaret? ?]
    What about her husband?
    Was he a member?
    No.
    I don't think so.
    Now, this guy was more obvious.
    I mean--
    Yeah, he was not obvious.
    He behaved reasonable on the job.
    He was a very good worker.
    But the fact that he belonged in the Ku Klux Klan,
    I wouldn't give him the satisfaction
    to make a living out of a Jewish guy.
    I was the boss.
    It's my factory.
    But you never had any repercussions?
    None whatsoever.
    None whatsoever.
    I didn't even suspect that he's going
    to get even with me or he's going to hurt me.
    Never worried.
    Never worried.
    And if he had to, if he comes with a gun,
    I'll shoot his brain out myself.
    I'll pick a fight with a guy like this.
    You should meet your neighbor in Mississippi.
    Gilbert Metz?
    There was a-- they put up a cross.
    I don't know how you would feel about this,
    but they put up a cross on city property in Jackson.
    And he felt that religion and Christianity is what really
    is at the root of antisemitism.
    It's the way I feel.
    And so he took them to court.
    And they dumped garbage on his lawn.
    And CBS News came down.
    They interviewed him.
    And he won.
    Because you don't have a right to put a cross.
    I know.
    I know of the case.
    You don't have a right to-- this cross was put up--
    it was lit around Christmas time of the year.
    And people would see it for hundreds of miles around.
    Right.
    Now, he-- you believe that, right?
    You bet.
    That Christianity is at the root of it.
    So how are the Christians here different?
    They're different because--
    You say they respect the Jews.
    They believe they're the chosen people.
    Aren't they the same?
    Don't they have the same teachings?
    I mean--
    No, they don't.
    No, they don't.
    I mean, don't they believe that--
    Catholicism.
    Catholicism.
    I accuse Catholicism of being the biggest bigot.
    They don't deviate.
    They don't deviate one bit from their covenant.
    Is that right?
    I think that's the right term.
    Covenants, yeah.
    Yes.
    Most Catholics are antisemites.
    Antisemitism was preached wide open
    in churches in Europe, all over Europe.
    In Poland.
    In Poland.
    Now, to go back to your basic question that you said before,
    the difference here, you also have
    to realize that this is redneck country.
    If they go to these little churches
    and they run into a bigot, they are like sheep.
    They'll buy it and try to live with it.
    Most of them.
    Most of them.
    Even the clergymen.
    You look who the leaders--
    you lived in Atlanta.
    Maybe Atlanta is too big of a city.
    I mean--
    Very Baptist.
    Yes, I mean, they talk.
    They all have their time.
    They are so far behind.
    It's getting better because communication is so much--
    but 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you didn't have television.
    These people I can visualize were like in Europe,
    far behind in thinking, in modern way to look at things.
    Somebody came to tell them the Jews are no good,
    the Jews are no good.
    But if you go back to Europe, the Christian indoctrination
    was much, much, much far advanced
    within their philosophies, with their beliefs.
    And they knew how to motivate these people to go
    to murder Jews, pogroms, because the masses didn't have
    one year of school and the churches
    provided their own schools.
    The public schools were teaching more religion
    than actually science or anything else in these days.
    Because everything was controlled by the churches.
    All true here.
    And down in this country, again, we're talking about--
    But the Baptist Christians, they believed that the Jews
    were God's chosen people.
    You still have today--
    They also believe that you can't be saved unless you believe
    in Jesus Christ and accept him.
    Right.
    And you haven't accepted him.
    OK, you have here--
    you have here in the last 20 years,
    through television, media, and a very powerful movement
    of conservatism that's being helped hand in hand
    with churches trying to establish
    a state, a religious state, or have
    much more influence than the Constitution will permit
    at this point.
    You wind up-- what I'm trying to bring out
    is that the philosophies are popping up like philosophers
    and theological philosophers, that are tremendously improved,
    but there are some that are very dangerous to anything
    in this world.
    The philosophy of Armageddon, and I'm
    sure you know what I'm talking about, that is popping up
    and the mental--
    that Armageddon is coming, is terrible--
    terribly dangerous to anything and everything,
    and especially to Jews.
    The latest philosophy of Jimmy Swaggart,
    I mean, it is undermining everything that this world has,
    possesses.
    Because it says there'll be a great conflict.
    And the Jews-- they are calling that Armageddon philosophy.
    And it comes, I think, from Jimmy Swaggart or his movement,
    that Israel is going to fight with Russia.
    God is going to set up a war between Russia and Israel.
    And who's going to win?
    And Israel is going to win, but 60%--
    60% of Jews-- of Israel and Jews in the world
    are going to perish.
    And the rest of them will have to accept
    or will accept Jesus Christ as the savior.
    But Leon, this is what the Baptists are saying.
    And you live here.
    And all these years you lived here,
    and you know that this is part of their religion.
    So what do you think was going through their minds
    when they met a Jew?
    I mean, they'll be nice to you and say we respect you.
    And you know how it is.
    Sometimes a person will say, well, I don't like Jews
    in general, but I like you.
    Well--
    I mean, did you ever feel it?
    Yeah, sure.
    That's all I'm asking.
    First of all-- first of all, it doesn't register.
    It didn't register so far.
    It doesn't register.
    I don't think it registers.
    The public is not intelligent enough
    to thrive and adapt and live it.
    I don't think so.
    I talked on the subject with a few Christians.
    The public, but you said they're like sheep.
    If they get a minister to tell them that, they'll follow him.
    Right, right, right.
    It is not-- it is not promoted yet, from my observation,
    to the extent where we're facing an immediate danger.
    But the thought, the idea, is dangerous.
    And I'm sorry, I'm going to take you back to what I said before.
    We got to protect our interests and live as Jews
    and not subscribing-- not help.
    So there's really-- there's no salvation in conversion.
    By conversion, right.
    Would you say that?
    There's no salvation in conversion.
    This is what I'm leaning into.
    Right.
    No matter which way you throw the coin, it falls the same way.
    When you vote, do you vote Republican or Democrat?
    I vote Democrat most of the time.
    Although I voted for Nixon, I still
    think Nixon was the greatest man.
    For what reason?
    What did he do, do you think?
    I think Nixon did very good for Israel, although he had
    some staffing that was against.
    He was a supporter at one time, maybe, of the olden days.
    What was the Egypt's name?
    Who?
    You know, branded all the famous Jews as--
    Agnew?
    Well, no, that was the biggest--
    that was that stupid.
    No, I'm talking about in the '50s.
    Oh, Dulles?
    No, no, no.
    Branded all the famous people as communists.
    Oh, McCarthy.
    McCarthy.
    Yeah, he was supporting at one point.
    But he prosecuted Alger Hiss.
    Alger Hiss, right.
    But you thought for Israel and for--
    Even today, I think he was--
    he had tremendous qualities that since then--
    And yet look what happened.
    The Watergate thing killed him.
    Yeah, well, look, they're all living in scandals.
    But if you take a guy like Carter,
    was a [INAUDIBLE] a typical redneck--
    You must have lost at least one night's sleep.
    A night after, after all the whole interview.
    Because the interview is about when the Holocaust
    picture was on the--
    Christianity has learned very little.
    Yeah, I do pick [INAUDIBLE].
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    I'm blunt.
    I mean, listen again--
    There's another interview.
    This man just--
    If I had a diplomatic course at the university, I would think--
    The Weinberger Center programming people,
    where the Gestapo were good people,
    good family men who do all the things that good citizens do.
    They just acted like monsters.
    This is the frightening thing.
    It was Dr. Weinberger who knew of my other work.
    That's another thing that we didn't
    like when he said it either.
    Like he wanted to take you out for lunch in the worst way.
    I have to tell you.
    I have to tell you that I have four kids.
    When I leave my family for eight days
    so many things happen while I'm gone that I come back,
    I have mail this high, because I'm chairman of my department.
    I have a consulting firm.
    I'm involved in many civic activities.
    And my kids are all ages--
    15, 14, six, three.
    And my wife works still.
    She's a speech therapist and she's writing a novel.
    And for me to have picked up like I did now
    and go away for eight days, which
    is how long I've been gone, is something I have very--
    I haven't done it in years.
    Let me tell you.
    Let me tell you that, Jerry--
    So tell him I'm sorry.
    Yeah.
    Jerry is a very, very devoted man pertaining to this.
    Well, he's teaching.
    Yeah, he's now on sabbatical leave.
    He's on sabbatical?
    Yeah, he just came back from Poland.
    He's got so much material.
    It's unbelievable.
    He's not told me that.
    Well, Did you make some--
    did you make some copy?
    Let me just read through the article, OK?
    Well, this all kinds of articles.
    Because maybe there was something
    here that I would like to quote in the book,
    and I like to quote it from the newspaper.
    Where is the one with the [INAUDIBLE].
    With the girl.
    I don't know where it is.
    It's laying in there somewhere.
    No?
    Where?
    You had from the bank to send something.
    Yes.
    Where is it?
    Now, you said here--
    it says here, he added that this is an article called "He
    Survived Nightmare of Holocaust," by Diane Ludlem,
    L-U-D-L-E-M. And it appeared on Sunday, April 23, 1978,
    in the Tuscaloosa News.
    It appeared, I see, right after the film--
    The film was shown in the town.
    That's where they came to interview us.
    And you say you were reliving part of your life.
    It says here, "He added that the television program did not bring
    back any painful memories.
    Quote, 'I have been hardened.
    The pains are there, but the pains are immaterial.'"
    Is that really what you meant to say?
    I mean, don't a lot of things bring back memories?
    Yeah, well, you see, naturally, when
    I talk to you, maybe if I have to repeat it,
    I might say it different because it puts you in certain moods.
    You understand?
    It's how sometimes that brings out statements,
    and sometimes it doesn't bring out actually what you want.
    You mean, if you're talking to me,
    it's going to be different if you're talk to her.
    Probably.
    I mean, let me ask you this.
    Yes, you see, I like to put in a-- sometimes I put in a plug.
    I put in a plug.
    Yeah.
    I mean, if you are challenging-- if a girl sits here,
    and she comes up with some idiotic things, and pushing me,
    then I got to come back.
    I says, it's a shame.
    I wish the goddamn Nazis win the war.
    But you don't mean what she means.
    You understand?
    Yeah.
    Sometimes you're led into things of making statements.
    I mean, I am sure that when you saw what was going on
    in that show, that you had--
    that it reminded you of things.
    It could not have--
    Oh, my god, I cannot-- some of these things I don't--
    I have most anything on television I have on tape.
    I have a library there of maybe 40 or 50 tapes of all kinds.
    And you know what?
    I don't watch it.
    Tapes of what?
    Anything pertaining to the Holocaust,
    especially, anything pertaining to Judaism,
    including good things, good Jewish show.
    But when it comes to these things, it's killing me.
    It's killing me to watch it.
    Of course.
    I mean--
    You see, it breaks me down.
    So sometimes I run away from it.
    I assume that you had dreams about the war,
    and probably still do.
    What are you talking about?
    The fantastic things.
    I dream not too long ago, my little town,
    the way I hid not from the Nazis,
    but from a general attack, a military attack,
    you hear, from the old, old planes.
    They didn't have the jet planes.
    And where I lost a leg.
    I lost a leg.
    And it was so actual.
    It was so life, running, trying to run into a sewer.
    And they hit me no more than maybe 10 yards--
    five, six, more, 10 step.
    And they hit me and I lost a leg right there.
    And I have seen it.
    It was so real.
    I've seen the leg.
    And that's why I woke up.
    How long ago was that?
    Only a few weeks ago.
    And the plane was not a modern plane.
    It was an old little plane.
    An old Nazi plane.
    An old Nazi plane.
    Messerschmidt or something.
    Yes.
    Do you--
    As a [INAUDIBLE]
    Did anything happen in your life, in real like that.
    I mean, did you hurt your leg while you were walking somewhere
    or anything like that?
    No.
    Out of the blue sky.
    How often do you dream like that?
    Not really.
    Molly dreams.
    Molly dreams an enormous amount, but not necessary,
    not necessary Nazi things.
    So I do not.
    Do you dream-- let me ask you, when
    you think about the Holocaust, do the things about it
    bother you more now than they did 25 years ago or less?
    I would say less.
    I would say.
    See, again, it depends on the mood.
    I want to tell you what my question is.
    Yes.
    I want to tell you the basis of the question.
    A lot of people I talk to say to me that it bothers them
    more now because--
    and this is the case with you too--
    they're retired.
    They have more time to think about it.
    When they were younger, they were raising their families.
    No.
    You see, in the short and in the short scope of what a diameter,
    I'm terribly hurting.
    Now vice versa.
    I can live with what happened.
    I mean, I have to live with it.
    But what bothers me is of the more serious nature--
    my children, my grandchildren, the future.
    This is a very serious concern.
    And not only concern.
    It bothers me and anybody I talk to about us.
    The fact that it is way, way, way
    after we were liberated, way, way after we
    already in God's country--
    which it is God's country, no question about it.
    It is paradise, paradise on Earth.
    I use that term all the time.
    This is a country of paradise in comparison,
    from what I know now, from even before the Holocaust.
    So I can compromise.
    And I appreciate my existence, my survival.
    But when you see what is happening to Jewish causes,
    whether it's Israel, whether it is
    the long-range outlook, the way I look at it, it bothers me.
    And actually, it's bothering me.
    It hurts me to think the insecurity, the potentials.
    And I mentioned before when the recorder was off,
    that this country can be another Holocaust because there
    is too much going outside law.
    The gangsterism, as I mentioned before.
    You didn't record it.
    Knowing the whole 1900s, if this is permitted,
    and what we see where other violation of human rights
    of law, the law, the way it's interpreted,
    the way it's handled.
    The latest adventures and the successes
    of the churches on television.
    The conservatism.
    Boy, all these things worry me for the future.
    Did you tell your children about the war?
    We talk to the children.
    We talk with the children on the subject, yes.
    They really appreciate it and they really like it.
    I feel that they agree with me on most of the subjects.
    Molly, do you talk to your children about the war?
    Yeah, they know, that we talk about them.
    And they ask tool.
    They ask a lot of questions.
    Even my son-in-law.
    How do you think--
    We were watching-- what did we watch?
    War and Remembrance.
    War and Remembrance, yes.
    And he was sitting with us.
    And in fact, he was taking notes.
    He's asking us questions while he was watching the movie.
    He says at one point or another they want to write a book.
    Yeah, they want to write.
    But they want to write.
    They want to backtrack our family.
    They should do that.
    Yeah.
    And so they want to get together.
    The three of them wanted to--
    the my son-in-law, my daughter, and my son.
    It would be great if they did it.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    But right now they're so busy with their work.
    I want to ask you.
    This now, this is an interesting article,
    and I just want to repeat it.
    The other article, I don't think too much of it from what I see.
    But here's an article that's called--
    it appeared.
    It's called "1945--
    Gross in Death Camp, Freed by US," by Dale Grisham--
    G-R-I-S-H-A-M. And it's called--
    it appears in the Tuscaloosa News Sunday, September 16, 1979,
    on page C1 in the Life and Leisure section.
    Now, you say here that you had two good reasons
    for supporting resettlement of South Vietnamese family
    in America.
    And I see that the whole article--
    Where the boat people came, right.
    I see the whole article here is about the boat people.
    Yes.
    And you say your first reason is the good standing
    of the US in foreign affairs, and that our forefathers were
    nothing but escapees from persecution.
    That goes on.
    There's an interruption.
    And then you finish off by saying that our forefathers--
    And then you say that your second reason
    has to do with the fact that you yourself
    suffered as a displaced person 40 years ago in Nazi Germany.
    And as a result, when you see this, you feel-- you say that--
    maybe this is something that you said--
    oh, I see you're the manager of Deborah Knits, it's called.
    Local manufacturing.
    A local manufacturing company.
    And you say, here you see no way out
    but to help refugees at any cost.
    "Those who would deny help to these boat people
    should think of their own past hardships
    and remember why their forefathers came here.
    America is a land of people who left oppression
    for opportunity."
    And then the guy said to you, well,
    people have enough trouble finding jobs here for people.
    And you go on to say--
    it would be nice if I found it.
    Yeah.
    That "Unemployment"-- I'm quoting you--
    "is circumstantial to the refugees.
    Five years ago, there were no Vietnamese here
    and there was unemployment.
    So the percentage of refugees.
    We possibly can and do help cannot upset the economy."
    Well, it might be worse.
    Then you say my-- now you have employed
    several Vietnamese workers in your clothing plant.
    "My heart is with them all the way.
    I did that and will again because I feel it is right.
    I did it too, because I have been a victim
    and a displaced person.
    Those who have lived through that stress
    understand their anguish.
    There is such a place as the little country of Israel,
    which was the first country to stretch out its hands
    to Vietnamese struggling to live on the high seas."
    And this goes on on page--
    all these quotes are from page 2C.
    Now, would you say that when it comes to Blacks,
    you're also pretty liberal in your attitudes?
    Yeah.
    You see what happened these days, in the city here,
    the city sponsored some people.
    In fact, the--
    And the community and the newspaper was against--
    --sponsored the whole family too.
    And we sponsored.
    Isn't that a shame?
    Yeah.
    And the newspaper had articles against.
    They're taking our jobs away.
    There were movements in the country--
    I don't know if you remember--
    not to let--
    Even today.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --not to let them in because they take away
    the people's jobs.
    Now I mean, it's ridiculous.
    It's silly.
    10,000, 20,000, 50,000.
    On 250 million people, a half a million people should come in.
    So what the hell do they going to do?
    They're going to upset.
    Sure, some people might be deprived.
    But the Blacks are different, though.
    And they've been here 200 years.
    Many of them are on welfare.
    Many of them have not made up much of themselves.
    What's their problem?
    I mean--
    Well, the problem is that we need to motivate,
    and talk, and do things that leads to solve the problem.
    There's a million and one things that needs to be done,
    and it's not being done.
    If you're talking about Black, they need to be more educated.
    The system has to-- first of all,
    you have a system in the United States
    that I might sound more critical than I really am, but I
    am critical on things like abuse in the administrative behavior,
    or handling things pertaining, let's say, to handouts.
    People have a tendency to go and get double or triple
    of their shares.
    I don't blame the people.
    I blame the system for not clearing their system.
    Do you find that the Black workers in your place
    are good workers?
    Yes, I find they're good workers.
    Just as good as anybody else.
    They need-- [INAUDIBLE] over all for a guy that went through
    Holocaust, that was persecuted and discriminated,
    I cannot visualize myself having one little bone
    of discrimination, antisemitism--
    I mean discrimination, OK?
    I'll show partiality.
    But there is a difference.
    From my observation, there is a difference.
    I did quite a bit of work in Central America.
    And it takes, in Central America,
    it takes about three people to do the same work
    that one person does in America--
    the same work, the same volume, the same standards.
    This is not that I say.
    You find it on statistics.
    Fortunately--
    So what I'm trying to say is, there is a difference,
    as a practical and experience manager
    in that particular industry, in the sewing industry.