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Oral history interview with Jack Novin

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1992.A.0128.85 | RG Number: RG-50.165.0085

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    Oral history interview with Jack Novin
    Transcript
    And we stayed there.
    And my wife grew up in Brooklyn.
    She was born there.
    And in 1972, I was giving a course on survivors.
    So I took her to see Auschwitz.
    And I took her to Poland, because I
    felt that, as a person born in America,
    it was important for her to see what happened there.
    And she wanted to go.
    And--
    Have you been to Israel?
    Oh, yes.
    As a matter of fact, I taught at Hebrew--
    I would like to go there.
    You've never been to Israel?
    I'll be going.
    I just got tired this week, so.
    He says he's going.
    So-- but I didn't pack.
    I didn't pack yet.
    Matter of fact, one of my friends
    is speaker of the house now in Israel in the Knesset.
    Who's the speaker of the house now?
    Berel Shilansky.
    Dov Shilansky?
    Yeah, he was just elected.
    How do you know him?
    We grew up together.
    We were in school together.
    You're from Lithuania, from Shavl?
    Yeah.
    Right.
    We went to school, and we lived, like from here.
    Six years ago--
    I could hit my golf ball to his house.
    Six years ago, one of his friends
    came here, that he never knew was living.
    Really?
    Came here for a sabbatical.
    A professor University of Haifa.
    He came here.
    He's in history.
    What's his name?
    David, David Golan.
    But he lives in--
    you know, Israel.
    He came to New York.
    He came on a sabbatical to Harvard.
    So he came to New York.
    And he went in Lithuania, they have a survivors organization
    there.
    He looked at the names.
    And he find my name.
    And he came up.
    We live by [INAUDIBLE] came up from Dachau.
    And I went to one hospital.
    He went to another one.
    They told him that I was dead.
    And I was told that he was dead.
    And that was the end of it.
    Amazing.
    He went to Israel in 1946.
    And I came here in '49.
    And I never knew he was alive.
    And when he came to New York, you
    know, before he came to Harvard here,
    so he went to Jewish Lithuanian organization there,
    and he find my name in there.
    So he told them, it's some mistake.
    He's dead.
    And they told him, he's in Boston.
    There was a convention that weekend, too, in New York.
    And he met met--
    A memorial, there's a memorial [INAUDIBLE] in New York.
    And he met people in New York there.
    And one of us from Boston came and told me,
    he sees me in Boston.
    So when he came here, he called me right away.
    And sure enough, he stayed here.
    A matter of fact, he stayed longer
    for my daughter's wedding.
    The year was up, already.
    He supposed to go back to Israel.
    But he stayed another month, so he could be here
    for my daughter's wedding.
    What was the reaction when you first saw him?
    You must have been--
    Well, when he called me on the telephone,
    my hands started shaking.
    I just-- at first, I couldn't believe it.
    Someone called me, said Yankele, [YIDDISH], you know?
    And I used to speak Yiddish.
    And I--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Can speak Yiddish.
    There's not too many people known by Yankele.
    It was [YIDDISH] Yiddish.
    And I said, he said [YIDDISH] Last time I saw him was in '45.
    And that was five years ago-- almost 40 years back.
    And I can't [INAUDIBLE].
    I just told him I just--
    Sure.
    And I just couldn't--
    So.
    I couldn't get myself together.
    And then, I mean, right way, he stayed in Brooklyn.
    He had an apartment there.
    How many children do you have?
    Two, my daughter and a son.
    A daughter and a son.
    Yeah.
    And they're both married?
    No, my daughter is married.
    She is [INAUDIBLE] My son is still single.
    Yeah.
    How old is he?
    He
    Was 29 or 30?
    He's 29.
    29.
    Today, that's not old for being single.
    No.
    You know a girl?
    Do I know a girl?
    You know, usually, when you try to set it up, it doesn't work.
    Got to let it happen by itself.
    Who are you staying with on Fuller street?
    Friend of mine.
    You wouldn't know him.
    Sandy Goldfuss is his name.
    It's in the phone book.
    But he's a computer programmer.
    And I know him from the time I was a kid--
    Yeah.
    --in New York.
    Were your parents in the concentration camps, too.
    No, my parents were in hiding.
    They ran.
    They had-- they had various adventures.
    They ran from one place to another.
    They went from Antwerp to Paris, from Paris
    to Marseille, and then from Marseille into the woods.
    And then they went into Switzerland.
    And I was born in Switzerland right after the war.
    But they had my brother with them.
    My brother was born in '39.
    Yeah.
    Most of my father's brothers and sisters
    were killed in Poland, and in the camps,
    in Auschwitz and Dachau.
    And his own parents were--
    they almost made it.
    It was 1944.
    And for a piece of bread, a 12 year old Polish kid
    gave them away.
    And they took the whole group of them
    that were hiding in the cellar to the edge of town.
    And they shot them into a grave.
    And that's what happened, basically, to my family.
    So my father came by boat.
    Did you come by boat?
    Yeah.
    Did you come from Bremerhaven?
    He thought he was going to die on the way over.
    I came from Naples, from Italy.
    From Naples.
    Huh, that's interesting.
    That's unusual.
    I think that maybe, as far as I know, I was only one, maybe,
    the first time.
    Was not supposed to leave.
    I lived in Munich after the war.
    In '46, when you were liberated, you lived in Munich.
    Yeah.
    I was liberated and with brothers to Munich,
    from the Alps.
    They took us from Dachau.
    We were on a death march.
    We were marching from Dachau to Tyrol in the Alps.
    They call it the death march.
    And we were almost there.
    And at night, they put us, because they
    were-- the German Army was pulling back.
    So they didn't want us to interfere with traffic.
    So they put us, overnight, in the woods to sleep overnight.
    And overnight-- it was May 1st.
    It start to snow.
    We woke up May 2nd, we're all covered in snow.
    And there was no Germans.
    They were all escaped over the night.
    So they took us.
    And they stay over there in a German hospital.
    I was sick.
    And then from there, they transferred us to Munich.
    Used to be-- there used to be a [? reactional ?] there,
    for the Gestapo and SS, the headquarters.
    And they put all the survivors up there.
    There was camps for us.
    I stayed there for months.
    And then, matter of fact, from there, the younger kids,
    they took to Israel, a lot, the Haganah.
    Did you think of going to Israel at any point then?
    Yeah.
    The reason I came here, because my father was alive.
    My father had a brother here.
    He came here in the First World War.
    I never knew him.
    But my father always kept talking about,
    he had a brother here.
    But I didn't know where he lived.
    And then, finally, I remembered, Boston.
    You were born in '23, 1923?
    '24 is my birth.
    But the paper says '22, but I came with the [INAUDIBLE].
    So I never bothered changing it.
    So--
    So you-- did your father come here first?
    No, I came first.
    So but then we didn't know.
    I knew my father, he was in Boston.
    I found out that he in Boston.
    But I didn't know how to find him.
    So Leonard Bernstein-- you know Leonard Bernstein,
    the conductor?
    Leonard Bernstein?
    He came to Feldafing in Munich.
    He gave a concert--
    you know, the camps, the survivors.
    You were in Feldafing?
    Yeah.
    Do you know that there's a book about Feldafing?
    No.
    By Simon Schochet.
    Do you remember the name, Simon Schochet, S-C-H-O-C-H-E-T.
    I have the book at home.
    It's Schochet.
    Schochet.
    Schochet.
    I remember.
    Schochet.
    There's a whole book.
    Matter of fact, I worked in the police department,
    in Feldafing, to keep-- you know,
    before I went to work in the hospital,
    in the dental laboratory.
    But I was in Feldafing.
    I came from Feldafing here.
    I'll tell you something else.
    There are other people from Feldafing.
    There's a few here.
    Elias Epstein.
    Epstein?
    Elias.
    I don't know--
    Elias Epstein.
    There's an Epstein here.
    Zalman Epstein here.
    No, this one lives in New York.
    He's talking about in New York.
    Yeah, that's his nephew, I bet you.
    What's the name now?
    What does he do?
    Yeah, it must be his brother.
    He's from Poland, I think.
    Oh, no, this one Lithuanian.
    And Epstein.
    Epstein, there's a million Epsteins here.
    Yeah, but there's Epstein in New York.
    He came to Shavl to live in New York.
    And there's one here.
    His uncle is here.
    Well, did your father, did he--
    He came--
    --he lived through the war?
    Or did he come here--
    Yeah, my father.
    He only died about 13, 14 years ago.
    No, my father dead 20 years now.
    20 years, really?
    That long.
    And he made it.
    Yeah.
    He made it through the war.
    Was he with you during the war?
    Not all the time.
    The last year, in Stutthof, in Dachau, he was--
    He was with you.
    Yeah.
    And he made it through the war.
    Yeah.
    And then did he come here together with you or?
    I came first.
    You came first.
    And what year did you come.
    '49.
    '49?
    So you were in Feldafing until '49?
    Yeah.
    And then how was it that you came through Naples?
    When my papers came through.
    Make sure it's correct.
    Now, I've got a job [INAUDIBLE].
    When I got my visa to go here, and I went to the embassy
    in Munich.
    And they told me that my ship leave from Naples.
    Because everybody was going from Bremerhaven-- everyone
    was going.
    So I said, this from Naples?
    I didn't care where you going from as long I'm going.
    Maybe it was a better ship.
    So we went by train from your Munich to Naples.
    We were in Naples there.
    We stayed there for a while.
    And then it took us from Naples.
    We took the boat.
    Your wife was saying something.
    Now I remember the first name.
    Roda.
    Roda?
    Yeah.
    I'm Will.
    You were saying something about the trip, about what--
    Oh, he said he thought he was never
    going to live to see the United States.
    What did you mean?
    He was so seasick.
    I was so seasick.
    You got really sick?
    I never believed I'll make it to here.
    He don't want to go on a boat now.
    Is that true, you don't like to go on a boat now?
    No.
    Is it because of that experience?
    Yeah.
    To this day?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, he wouldn't go on a cruise,
    even though it's not the same kind of ships.
    I'm sure you didn't have first class.
    Oh, no, It was an army.
    An army boat?
    What was the name of it, do you remember.
    General Hahn.
    General Hahn, H-A-H-N?
    Yeah.
    Yes, I know that boat.
    Yeah.
    Well, a lot of people came over on these boats.
    And you know what they used to do?
    The same boats used to go back and forth.
    We slept like on hammocks.
    This I don't know.
    You slept on hammocks?
    Yeah, that's what was.
    You mean a piece of string?
    Yeah, it was-- it used to move.
    No wonder you got sick.
    Yeah.
    It was an army-- because they had to.
    There were some beds, maybe someplace else.
    But they had so many people there, they needed more rooms.
    So they put us in.
    And they was like sardines, everybody was crowded in there.
    And the men slept in one section, the women
    in another section?
    Yes.
    Even if they were married, right?
    You didn't get a-- you didn't get a special room.
    No.
    Were the people on the boat nice?
    Yeah, the people were nice, yeah.
    I knew the people.
    A lot of people that I knew from Feldafing
    were over there, four or five kapos,
    that was friends, who I knew from Feldafing.
    So we kept-- they kept an eye on me.
    I was so sick I couldn't walk.
    So who gave you the affidavit to come here?
    They did.
    The HIAS.
    The HIAS, yeah.
    But was there an individual person here
    that gave you an affidavit?
    No.
    The Jewish-- the Joint.
    Because you couldn't find the uncle in Boston, right?
    They have to find an uncle, my uncle, who couldn't sponsor me,
    because he was a poor, working man.
    He worked as a tailor in a shop here.
    He was never married, never could read in an English paper.
    All his life, he was--
    The Shul and The Fowards, that's all he knew.
    The Shul and The Forwards.
    Two things.
    Do they still have The Forwards?
    Yes.
    That's all he knew.
    It doesn't come out as regularly.
    Yeah, he used to read the Forwards
    and go in shul every morning.
    He used to daven Friday and Saturday in shul.
    That's what he knew.
    And he couldn't sign for me, because how can he sign for me?
    He had no money.
    They have to have a guarantee that I
    wouldn't depend on government.
    So he was no help.
    So the Jewish--
    They sponsored you?
    Yeah.
    When you landed, did you land in Boston?
    In New York.
    In New York?
    Yeah.
    And how is it that you wound up in Boston?
    Well, they felt that I have an uncle here, maybe it be better,
    because I was a stranger.
    I had nobody in New York, no family, nobody.
    They felt, maybe, it would be nice to be
    here because of my uncle here.
    So that's how they--
    And who met you at the boat?
    Nobody.
    Was it the HIAS?
    The HIAS, yeah.
    Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty--
    Oh, sure.
    --when you came in?
    Sure.
    What was your first impression of America?
    Well, first of all, I didn't know what the Statue of Liberty
    was, because I never had heard about it.
    Nobody told you anything.
    Nobody talked about it.
    Nobody knew about it.
    And a couple of years back, I took my children down there.
    Quite a few years.
    Yes, the kids were small.
    I just wanted to see for myself.
    He might have still been in New York.
    And in fact, he'll tell you a story
    how, when he first came to New York,
    he might still be-- he might have still
    been riding on the subway.
    What happened?
    Well.
    I'll be back in a minute.
    I came here December 22, so almost before Christmas.
    And I had some friends of mine, who
    came here a couple of years ahead of me,
    and I know from Feldafing.
    So they called me.
    And [INAUDIBLE] come to visit, to go out with them.
    And they spoke already English.
    Some of them were even in school already.
    So they said, New York, they're going to go on Times Square.
    They said, it's beautiful there.
    There's people marching and bands playing.
    So I said, fine.
    So they came to the hotel.
    Where did you live, in what hotel?
    Hotel Marseille?
    Marseille.
    On 103rd Street and Broadway?
    Right.
    Yeah.
    How do you know?
    Oh, you hear from somebody else?
    They also have this--
    Yeah?
    --a couple of years.
    I know about that hotel.
    That was a famous hotel.
    That's right.
    It was a white hotel--
    Yeah.
    --with a marquee.
    Yeah.
    And it was--
    I wonder if it's still there.
    It is still there.
    Still there, huh?
    It doesn't look the same, but it was
    a beautiful hotel at one time.
    Yeah.
    But they took over the whole hotel.
    I know.
    What was the hotel like?
    It was nice.
    They had nice homes there.
    Everybody had his own separate room.
    You didn't have a roommate?
    No.
    And where did you eat, in a dining room?
    In the dining room, they served us breakfast, lunch.
    Nice dining room?
    Yeah, it was very nice.
    And the serve us nice kosher food-- meals, because I guess--
    to me, first of all, I was never kosher.
    Of course, I was just [INAUDIBLE] the war.
    Before the war, my family was kosher.
    But that's about it.
    But they served kosher food, everything there.
    And it was nice.
    Anyway, I stayed there.
    So my friends, they lived in Brooklyn.
    So they came up to the hotel.
    They picked me up, and we took the subway down to Broadway.
    I mean Times Square.
    Brooklyn?
    Or Brooklyn or Brookline?
    Brookline.
    I mean--
    Brookline, Mass?
    | in Brooklyn.
    Brooklyn.
    Brooklyn, yeah, I'm sorry.
    So they came to the hotel.
    Excuse me, but how were they your friends?
    You knew them from?
    From Feldafing.
    I see.
    Yeah.
    So they came to the hotel.
    How did you get in touch with them?
    Oh, I know they were in New York.
    Because they left two years ahead of me.
    Oh, and they wrote you letters.
    We used to write each other, you know?
    And they had jobs.
    They were working already.
    And they were already like Yankee doodles,
    like compared to me.
    Yes.
    I had $5 when I came in New York, I got off the boat.
    $5?
    Yeah.
    So what happened?
    So they came to visit?
    So they came New York.
    And we went down to Times Square.
    I remember it was five or six stops
    from my hotel to Times Square.
    That's right.
    103rd, 96 to 86.
    Something like that.
    79.
    So we got to Times Square.
    We walked around.
    There was people.
    I mean, there were so many people
    in Times Square, New Year's Eve.
    And it was then New Year's Eve?
    New Year's Eve, yeah.
    This was right after you came.
    Yeah, a week later.
    I came 22nd.
    I came before Christmas.
    And that was right New Years.
    You remember Christmas in New York?
    Yeah.
    What did that look like?
    Nothing.
    I was in a hotel.
    I didn't know where to go.
    We stayed in a hotel with the boys and kibitzed.
    I didn't know where to go.
    I couldn't-- I couldn't speak English.
    Couldn't go on the subway.
    If somebody didn't come to get me, I couldn't go no place.
    On top of that, I had no money neither.
    So what can I do?
    Where were you going to go?
    No.
    So I stayed in hotel.
    We used to kibitz.
    They had-- just walking around the block there.
    I go for a walk around there, but I couldn't go too far.
    What would you kibitz about?
    Oh, what's going to happen here, what you going to do,
    and how things are going to work out.
    You know, a strange country, and you
    couldn't speak, you have no friends, no relatives.
    And the friends, they had their own life to do, already.
    They had the rent.
    They're working.
    They couldn't spend much time with you.
    They had their own life to take care.
    Sure.
    So we were walking around in Times Square a couple hours.
    By that time, it was already getting late, about 2 o'clock.
    I get a cup of coffee, there, in Times Square.
    And I said to the guys, thank you.
    I'll go back to hotel.
    So they said, they'll go with me.
    I said, don't bother.
    I know how to get home.
    I said, I'll take the subway downstairs.
    And it's six or six times, whatever it is.
    I go out and arrive in a hotel.
    You're sure about it?
    I said, sure.
    No problem.
    So they take me down to the subway.
    And they put the money for me there.
    And I got--
    I realized there's upstairs and downstairs,
    there's south or north.
    So the first subway, it comes up, I get on it.
    And I'm driving.
    And I get off.
    I'm [INAUDIBLE] stops [INAUDIBLE].
    I get out.
    I say, this is not a place I'm supposed to be.
    So I get back on the subway.
    And I'm riding.
    And I get off it again.
    And again, another station.
    I don't know where I am.
    And so I asked people.
    I had a piece of paper, written the address.
    I couldn't speak, so I showed the paper to the guy.
    He said, go downstairs.
    Now I don't know about downstairs or upstairs.
    So I go upstairs.
    I don't know different between upstairs and downstairs.
    You didn't know English.
    I didn't speak English.
    And half the people was drunk--
    New Year's night.
    And I'm going up and down, up and down the subway.
    I'm riding.
    It's already 3 o'clock.
    It's 4 o'clock.
    So at 5 o'clock, and I'm still in the subway.
    By that time, I'm getting dizzy.
    And I met my wife in a subway.
    It's New York.
    It's on subway.
    So I didn't know.
    I was getting dizzy.
    And I was hungry.
    I said, to myself, that's the end of me.
    I'm going to die right in the subway.
    And I know, everybody ask people questions.
    They tell me.
    I didn't know what they're talking to me.
    What do you mean, you were going to die in the subway?
    Were you afraid that something would happen, someone
    would mug you or something?
    Yeah.
    I was hungry.
    I was exhausted.
    I couldn't even walk anymore, I was so tired.
    And I never on subway in my life, you know?
    Why didn't you go out into the street?
    I didn't know how to get out.
    I couldn't read the signs.
    Interesting story.
    You couldn't get out, because it's
    upstairs, downstairs, south, north.
    I didn't know.
    So you couldn't leave the subway.
    No.
    From the time you got in--
    You only had the subway.
    --at Times Square.
    Times Square.
    Three hours later?
    Yeah.
    I'm still in the subway.
    They wrote a book about this, you know.
    It's called, Subways Are for Sleeping.
    And I was never--
    and I was never in a subway in my life.
    And there's no air in the subway.
    I couldn't breathe.
    I never used to it.
    I never in a subway in my life.
    So I felt dizzy.
    And I said, Jesus.
    So about 5 o'clock, I am sitting there in the subway.
    And at that time, it was quiet-- nothing, people in the subways.
    And I said, I'll see, maybe a policeman will come by or some
    of the others, maybe they'll help me.
    And just this time, a man walks by, an older man.
    That time he looked to me like maybe 55, 60 year old man.
    And so I walked over to him, and I show him the piece of paper.
    He said to me, he says to me, you speak German or Yiddish?
    I said, yeah, I speak Yiddish, German.
    It was a Jewish man.
    So he says, [YIDDISH].
    So I told him the story.
    He said to me, you're kidding me.
    He said, I came here this country, he said,
    when I was two years old.
    It's the best country in the world.
    Come on, I'll take you home, he said.
    And I was only a couple of blocks from the hotel.
    I never knew about it.
    That was lucky.
    So he took me out from the subway, called a cab,
    put me on a cab.
    He said America is a golden land now.
    He said, some day, you'll be good to somebody else.
    Paid the cab and took me--
    took me-- the cab took me to the hotel.
    I was almost--
    When I got the hotel, it was almost 5:30 in the morning.
    So I got in my room.
    I couldn't even get undressed.
    I just laid on the bed.
    I fell asleep like a light.
    I was out.
    About 10 o'clock, my friends, who wen out at night before,
    called me to find out if everything's OK.
    There's no answer.
    I couldn't hear the phone.
    I was out like a light.
    So they called the desk to find out if I came home.
    I don't know.
    He said, we'll check.
    So they knocked at the door.
    No one answered.
    So they thought I was dead.
    So they opened.
    The kid opened the door.
    Here I am laying on the bed, out like a light.
    They thought I was dead.
    So we went and tuck in.
    They went to me.
    They woke me up.
    I woke up.
    What happened?
    So I told them what had happen.
    So that I was so tired, I came home.
    It was almost 5:30 in the morning.
    I was out--
    I was over four hours, 4.5 hours on the subway.
    Some story.
    Tell me when you were in Times Square--
    Yeah.
    --do you remember what it looked like?
    When your friends took you down--
    Yeah, there was millions of people.
    Millions of people going back and forth and kissing each other
    and hugging each other and yelling, happy new year,
    something, drinking-- everybody was with bottles
    in their hands drinking.
    It was just--
    I never seen so many people.
    I mean, I came from a town where I was born was only--
    my town was 30,000 people.
    But Feldafing was bigger, right?
    I mean, with Feldafing, you had already been--
    Oh, yeah, I told you, but in Munich, but not
    like New York, 8 million people.
    The whole country of Lithuania was only 3 million there.
    Mostly white, the people that were in Times Square?
    Yes, was white.
    And I was in New York, now, I got down this road in--
    [INAUDIBLE] was Black.
    Now.
    Yes, now, you don't go to Times Square.
    We were in New York a few months ago for a wedding.
    I couldn't-- I couldn't believe it, the difference.
    It's like a different city.
    I used to go to a convention, every year--
    Oh, no.
    --just conventions.
    No.
    And we used to walk around.
    And you used to walk around on Times Square.
    Hey.
    Hey.
    Hi .
    He would like-- you guess what.
    You're leaving [INAUDIBLE]
    I want to see the fashion weekend
    because it's very attractive.
    No.
    Yeah, on the outside, it's flashing.
    You can't see it on this side.
    That's what he's after.
    Just like my kids.
    How old are yours?
    Mine?
    Here, I'll show you.
    They have different ages.
    They have-- They run from--
    They run from--
    They run-- They run, sometimes, from the parents.
    Last night, we had to chase them two blocks.
    This is-- let's see.
    This is the youngest.
    This is Deborah.
    She's three.
    This is Joseph.
    Adorable.
    He's six.
    Thank you.
    This is Alan, who's now 15.
    He just turned 15.
    And this is Jeffrey, who's 16.
    You got like two--
    Two families.
    Like two families.
    15, 16, 6, and 3.
    That's nice.
    You know what happened?
    Nice looking kids.
    They all got curls.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    They're adorable.
    Beautiful children, yeah.
    Does your wife got curly hair, too?
    Yes.
    Yeah.
    Here's my wife in our wedding.
    As I remember, we had a nice challah.
    That's a long time ago.
    That's 20 years ago.
    20 years?
    So you finally got a girl?
    Well, I'm retiring now.
    I think I've had it.
    That's enough really.
    Well, although they must--
    don't they help you with the big-- the bigger ones.
    They are.
    They are there in Israel this summer.
    They're working on a kibbutz.
    When they're home, they're very, very helpful.
    So you only got two of them here with you?
    I only have two of them with me.
    They went touring or something.
    So tell me, you're going to Israel now for the first time.
    I hope to go.
    You hope to go the first time.
    Yeah.
    Did you want to go sooner over the years?
    I was always busy.
    He never took off the time.
    I had my own business all the years.
    And I was--
    This is the dental?
    Laboratory, yeah.
    Did you run the laboratory?
    Yeah.
    He owned it.
    You owned the laboratory?
    I owned for 30 years.
    For 30 years?
    And how big a business was it?
    I had five people at one time.
    That's big for a dental office.
    What did you do?
    What does a dental office do?
    Dental-- mix.
    He makes--
    We make it.
    The material?
    No, the teeth for the dentist.
    Let's say you go to the dentist, and you have teeth missing,
    right?
    You need dentures.
    That's what--
    I see.
    So you felt that if you took off for a week or two--
    Well, he closed for a week, but a week is not enough.
    A week is not enough to go to Israel.
    No, because you jet lag.
    You need to have time to recover.
    That's right.
    Yeah.
    And there was no way you could really give it up.
    I mean, if it's your own business.
    No.
    No.
    Don't change the temperature.
    Matter of fact, I just brought some home.
    [CHILD SHOUTING]
    Newspaper clippings.
    Look here, I was working.
    This is a Jewish Advocate, 1965.
    Yeah.
    Anyone like a drink?
    Yes.
    Oh.
    For me, no, thank you.
    I'm fine.
    I'll have some ice.
    Elections committee of the New Americans Association
    of Greater Boston, Jack Novin, Reverend A. Heckler, chairman,
    Jack Novin, and Benny Zaleski.
    Are these people still alive?
    No, he's dead.
    He's dead.
    He's dead.
    That's what you said to me before, better to do it now
    before it's too late.
    This, Joshua Rayner.
    Yes.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    No, those are people from the CJP.
    From the CJP.
    And I had-- I had it in my house.
    I tried to raise money for the CJP.
    And I had him in my house, a speaker from the CJP.
    Dad, do you want a drink?
    That's Combined Jewish Philanthropies?
    Right.
    Now, to go back to this thing about the--
    I was very interested in what you
    said at the beginning of our conversation.
    You said that you were fighting for 20 years
    to have this Holocaust Memorial set up.
    This is not the same thing.
    No.
    [INAUDIBLE] Jack Novin, Ari Shapiro.
    All right, come on.
    Yitzhak-- Now, the question to me
    is, why were they giving you such a hard time?
    I mean people have been setting up memorials for long time.
    They didn't want to spend the money for it.
    They had some little dinky light that somebody had donated.
    Who?
    They had a little light?
    Yeah, they had a little thing.
    A little.
    How many of the people in the--
    Survivors here?
    --belong?
    Is this a Conservative temple?
    Yes.
    [?
    In Milton? ?] It's the same one that Joshua [? Weiner ?] belongs
    to.
    That's right.
    So how many survivors are there in the temple?
    In temple?
    A matter of fact, we just raised maybe six, seven.
    Six, seven?
    Yeah.
    Not survivors, really.
    They came from Europe, but some of them were, like your parents,
    they were hiding in Poland.
    Little survivors made it.
    There's me, Joshua, Philip [INAUDIBLE].
    No, Philip wasn't either.
    No, he wasn't.
    [INAUDIBLE] Here, the survivors, there's maybe three.
    Three?
    The rest of them, like some were in Russia during the war,
    some were in Poland in the war.
    But really, camp survivors is Joshua and myself, and maybe
    one more.
    I'm not sure now.
    What about Erlitz and Tate?
    They were none in camps.
    So what were their reasons?
    Just that they were cheap?
    They just didn't want spend--
    They didn't want spend the money, those excuses.
    And all these excuses and excuses.
    And they had something more.
    And they need money for that and money for that.
    And they--
    Milton is not a big town, like Newton and Brookline
    and those kinds of places.
    And I always fighting for that.
    And by the time, I was going to the temple.
    I told them, like last time, matter of fact,
    our temple was raising money to pay off a mortgage.
    I'm not a rich man.
    But I gave one of the highest amount of money
    for donation to pay off the mortgage from temple.
    And we had a big dinner that night.
    And they burned--
    The mortgage.
    --the mortgage That night, I called up the president
    and I said, right now, we don't do anymore.
    It was a new president.
    It was Henry Stoller.
    I say, if nothing is done, I'm leaving the temple.
    I'm going to write to every newspaper,
    Jewish paper in the country, tell them
    what you people are not doing.
    And I'm going, that temple is so bad, I said,
    there's nobody going to come into your temple anymore.
    And that's when he start doing action on it.
    He said, Jack, from now on, I'll take care on it.
    And he organized it then.
    Then we got another president after who came in.
    And that's what they started on a--
    about a committee.
    And I said, I'll raise the money for it.
    I'll even get to donate the money.
    So for the Torah, the Torah was $2,000.
    And we had no money.
    Because a lot of times, [INAUDIBLE]
    Well, the Torah was $1,000, and they needed a case.
    And the case, at least, there's $1,000 involved.
    So I said, I'll raise the money between our survivors.
    So you call survivors.
    You know, some of them--
    Hard to give?
    Yeah, like the money goes, like I'm taking for myself.
    It's like pulling teeth from someone's mouth.
    What is it Izzy Geller?
    He's-- was he?
    Izzy was, I think, yeah.
    So he belongs--
    What made you give that amount that you said
    was more than what the person in your position
    would normally give?
    What prompted you to do that?
    I felt that I was one of the lucky ones.
    I'm not a religious man, but it's
    I'm fighting with myself here about religion.
    Because I was brought up-- my zayde was a rabbi.
    And my father at least was--
    during the war, I seen what's going on.
    I lost.
    Your religion.
    But I still fight it.
    It could either go to another.
    I'm not-- I'm confused, because I survived the Holocaust.
    I just survived open heart surgery eight months ago.
    So I'm still--
    But I'm a good Jew.
    And I don't have to be religious to be a good Jew.
    That's what I feel about it.
    I never turned down, like I said before here.
    I always worked Jewish occasions, Jewish organizations
    all my life.
    And I felt it was important for them to get rid of the mortgage.
    I said, as my kids went to Hebrew school there,
    both of them.
    My kids got bar mitzvah.
    They got married in temple.
    I know that inside I felt I am.
    Well, I think that it's very important what you do.
    I think that my experience has been,
    traveling around and interviewing survivors,
    that they give-- that they tend to give more,
    that they tend to be more involved in Jewish organizations
    than the average American Jew because of what they've
    been through.
    Yes, people that I did business, all the years, with--
    Did Ed Brady see him in a camp?
    No.
    Your Dr. Fiore?
    Dr. Fiore is a doctor who I worked with.
    I'm so sorry.
    This is a-- explain to me what this is.
    Says, "thank you for correcting an impossible dental problem
    and also for being so kind and patient with me.
    I'm deeply grateful."
    Yeah, he sent it to him, because--
    "Josh, I thought you would like to see this--"
    Jack.
    "--your help in this matter was an important phase.
    Regards, Dr. Fiore."
    So you now these are people who appreciated what you did.
    Yeah.
    He's a professor at the dental school.
    Did you train to be a dental technician in Europe?
    Yeah, in Germany, yeah.
    In Feldafing?
    They let us, people sending doctors, patients--
    "Thank you, Jack, I am sincerely grateful [INAUDIBLE].
    Just the thought of having dentures
    before I got frightened, I can honestly say my father
    has dentures.
    I never expected to do this well.
    My relatives and friends are amazed at how natural they are,
    and that they haven't changed my facial appearance at all.
    My brother-in-law still can't believe they are not real.
    Many, many thanks again and may God
    bless you with health and happiness, always.
    [INAUDIBLE] gratefully, K. [PERSONAL NAME]."
    Patients.
    Did you help at all in this business?
    Were you involved in it?
    She did the bookkeeping.
    I was just doing the bookkeeping and stuff like that.
    And doctors.
    Doctors, I did business with.
    "Happy New Year, Jack.
    It's a pleasure to do business with you, sincerely Tim."
    Let me ask you something.
    When you think back on your achievements in life,
    you mentioned different things with respect
    to the synagogue and this.
    What are you most proud of?
    My wife and my kids.
    Your wife and your kids?
    Yeah.
    That's more important than the business.
    It's more important than the shul.
    Yeah.
    The kids are around there after vacation.
    What's in here?
    Does that blue on go in the envelope?
    Yeah.
    What does your son do?
    What does your son do?
    My son is an accountant.
    Yeah.
    And does he live around here?
    In Brighton?
    Not far.
    He lives in Brighton.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Good kid.
    And your son--
    He's lives in different places.
    Some of his stuff is still here.
    Oh, yeah?
    Well, that's good.
    He keeps the connection.
    He might be still here, too, pretty soon.
    He comes with the laundry, here, every Sunday.
    When she moves, he might be moving back for a while.
    He spend too much time there.
    What about your son-in-law?
    My son?
    Your son-in-law?
    Yeah.
    Right.
    Yeah.
    You have contact with him?
    He lives here too, now.
    He lives here, too.
    Yeah.
    So you're good parents.
    You're helping out the kids.
    Yeah, we're helping out the kids.
    Yeah.
    Two more weeks, they're back in the house.
    They've been here since April.
    What does your son-in-law do?
    He works for his family.
    They have a sportswear business.
    Sportswear business.
    Sportswear business.
    Where is he from?
    Manufacturing.
    No, he's from here.
    He was born in this town.
    And his parents?
    Parents are here, too.
    The grandmother was from Hungary.
    Yeah, grandmother came over, but the parents were born here,
    already.
    He's Jewish, I think--
    Oh, yeah.
    --your son-in-law.
    Let me ask you a question.
    Did he ever think about this, what would have happened
    if, say, your child would marry somebody that's not Jewish?
    What if the marry?
    I mean, how would you--
    I wouldn't-- I would very be upset about it.
    I'd think-- I would think, I would never
    have anything to do with them.
    And I told my daughter when she went to college.
    I told her that, too.
    Where did she go to school?
    University of Rochester.
    So she had a possibility of meeting someone not Jewish.
    Yeah.
    I told her that, how I feel about it.
    She got her MBA at Northeastern.
    An MBA?
    And he went to Northeastern, my son.
    You tell them, you'll never have anything to do with him.
    And you probably made that clear to them
    right from the beginning.
    My son, I know.
    My son always had the Jewish friends.
    And he went to college here.
    But she went away from college.
    With a girl, it's different.
    And I told her, I always said that I can't stop you going out.
    But I said, don't come here, because I would never
    approve of it.
    They can do it alone.
    But you can't stop them, even, if they want to get married.
    Sure.
    Did your children ask you about the war
    when they were growing up?
    My kids?
    I made a mistake with my kids.
    I never spoke to my kids about my parents, about my camp time.
    They know nothing about it.
    They know I was in the camps.
    I know.
    I just never--
    Wanted to protect them.
    Never talked about it with them.
    I don't think they'll believe me,
    because I, myself, don't believe it,
    the things I wake up every night from.
    I'm up every night thinking about the [INAUDIBLE] wedding.
    I don't believe myself, so how can
    I expect people to believe in the stories?
    And really, who cares?
    You feel that way, today, about your peers?
    Yeah.
    You think--
    Nobody cares.
    They listen to you, and it just--
    My kids went to camp.
    Your kids?
    They went to camp in the summer.
    And Jimmy thought that that's where
    he learned how to play golf, because he always heard
    him say he was in the camps.
    My son.
    He thought he went to play golf in camps.
    My kid thought I went to play golf.
    And he knew I was in camp, so he thought
    that's why I learned to play golf.
    Because he went to camp.
    They taught him golf there.
    He went to summer camp.
    For summers, you go to Jewish camps in summertime.
    So they didn't teach him anything
    in school about the Holocaust?
    Not nothing.
    Nothing-- Milton schools.
    Let's that still another problem I have Milton Temple,
    yes, oh, yes.
    It's not just Milton, the whole country, matter of fact
    up to five or six years ago.
    Now, the schools in the country, temples,
    never taught the Holocaust.
    It's only in the last 10 years that the survivors, like us--
    Why?
    When you grew up, did you learn about it in school?
    Or you went to Hebrew school?
    Did you ever taught Hebrew school?
    No.
    It was never taught '50s or '60s.
    The last 10, 15 years--
    And by that, by the '70s, I was out already.
    That's right.
    OK.
    The last 10, 15 years, like I told
    before, we're all getting old.
    And it's getting to a point now, another five 10 years,
    may be none left of us.
    So we start talking about it, more and more.
    And all of a sudden, it's gone to be now, they speak, you know,
    in high schools and that and that.
    But if the Hebrew schools-- so how can
    you expect public schools to think about it,
    if Hebrew schools, themselves, never even.
    I ask, once we had a principal in temple, here.
    I said, you're teaching them these Jewish escaped from Egypt,
    I said, 2,000 years ago.
    But your grandchildren-- but the grandparents,
    who survived the Holocaust, who got killed in camps.
    You're talking about 2,000 years back.
    It just happened.
    I said, it happened just now.
    Nobody talks about it.
    What did he say?
    Nothing.
    Nothing was done.
    And so just I never talked about it, because we talked about it,
    they think you're looking for mercy.
    And you want to make a big thing about it.
    To me, it was never a big thing about it.
    Because I know nobody will believe me anyways.
    So I never talked to my kid about it.
    And now I feel so bad.
    Maybe, I shouldn't spoke to them, for years back,
    and done the whole story about the grandparents,
    would happened to them.
    They never know about it, because I never
    talked about it again.
    That's a mistake I made.
    And I'm sorry, now, I never.
    Well, you're correcting it right now.
    And you can still do more.
    No.
    I don't know.
    Now, they big, have their own--
    she has her own family, her own kids.
    Now, she has your own problems.
    She's going to listen?
    I'm going to be bothering her with what happened,
    with my problems?
    I'm going to see her.
    She's buying a house, now.
    They're going to move to a house.
    She got another aggravation without my tsuris to tell her,
    you know?
    Well, at least you told the temple.
    At least, today, people seem to do more about it.
    They do more about it, because, like I
    said before, they find out it's because people
    have books written now, there was never a Holocaust.
    So it's very important, you see, to speak out at this point.
    All of a sudden, you know these books are written?
    The people still-- people deny, there was never a Holocaust.
    Sure, I know.
    Sure, I know.
    I know it well.
    So that's why I felt that, before it's too late.
    So now, since we achieved it, in temple,
    to put up that memorial, so each year, for yahrzeit,
    we have a speaker in temple, on Friday night.
    [INAUDIBLE] on Shabbat, they serve coffee,
    and we have a speaker, a survivor.
    Anne [? Lebowin, ?] I don't know if you met her over there,
    and me--
    Joshua's wife.
    --we're the permanent chairmen.
    You met Joshua's wife when you were there?
    No, she was doing something.
    She was busy with something.
    Yeah, but she and my wife are the chairmen ladies.
    So we get a speaker every year.
    How is it for you, as an American married to a survivor?
    I mean, my experience was, in interviewing the survivors,
    that they said that the American Jews,
    they didn't know from them, they didn't understand them.
    And they didn't talk to them when they came here.
    Some of them looked down on them.
    How is it for you?
    In other words, I mean, you must have a special insight
    that many other American Jews do not have.
    Because you know someone--
    Well, there's a lot of his friends
    that are married to Americans.
    Most of my friends are married to an American girl.
    Most of my friends.
    It's interesting, because--
    I found it very difficult, at first, when I first got married.
    Whenever I went somewhere, I didn't know
    what they were talking about.
    How many times?
    Yeah, when I got married--
    Once we went, to New York, to a convention.
    And we were going to go to see a play in the theater.
    I stood in line.
    I'd go, how long to get these tickets?
    All of a sudden, somebody knew he was there and called him
    and stuffed him-- us away to a party.
    Should have gone to the play.
    In Long Island was it, no?
    I don't know, but wherever it was, no, not one person
    spoke English.
    They were all talking to each other in Jewish.
    I don't really understand Jewish.
    I can understand a few words, but not like they speak.
    By the time I figured out the first word,
    they were all through, you know, when you talk fast like that.
    So I--
    So she was--
    I was sounding like an idiot all night long, talking to myself.
    Did you discuss your experiences with your wife over the years?
    No.
    Not much.
    No.
    Not much.
    And then, also, a lot of parties around here.
    When you'd get together with most of them,
    they'd all speak in Jewish.
    Half the time, I didn't know what they were talking about.
    Well--
    That was the only thing that I found a little bit difficult,
    when you go someplace and nobody talks to you
    and nobody talks to you or nobody
    lets you know what they're talking about.
    They could be talking about you, and you wouldn't know.
    I know that, yeah.
    Tell me, when you first came here, though, did anybody--
    what were the people like to you when you first arrived?
    Truthfully, when I came here, after being here six months,
    if I had $100 in my pocket, I'm going back to Germany.
    Why?
    That's how bad it was here.
    Well, first--
    That's how bad it was.
    How long did you stay in New York?
    A couple of months.
    A month, I think.
    A month or a month and 1/2 maybe.
    A month and 1/2.
    Don't touch the water.
    But why do you say, if you'd had $100, you'd have gone back?
    What happened to you, immediately?
    Because that was the fee back.
    Because when I came to Boston--
    Interesting.
    I came to Boston, right?
    So the HIAS put me up in a home, with some Jewish family,
    in Dorchester.
    They had some of the old Jewish folks, just Jewish people.
    And they put me in a room there with some people there.
    And they used to give me $20 a week.
    The HIAS put you in a room in Boston.
    Yeah.
    Where?
    In Dorchester.
    Somebody's house.
    In someone's house?
    You became a [YIDDISH], a renter?
    Yeah.
    They got a home for me, everything.
    People allowed, people that have homes, it was like income,
    so they used to rent out to refugees.
    So they rent a room for me there.
    And used to give me $20 a week, the HIAS.
    So I had to pay $8 a week for my rent.
    $12 were left for heat and food and laundry
    and taking the subway, looking for a job, for $12 a week.
    You could eat a lot for $12 a week.
    $12 a week?
    $8, I pay for rent, so I left with $12.
    I had to go look for a job.
    I had to take a bus, which I found was $1 a day,
    it cost me for traveling back and forth.
    What kind of work were you doing?
    I have a dental laboratory from my profession.
    I couldn't speak English.
    So I should go to-- and then my father was still in Germany.
    So from $12, I used to save up $5
    and send my father to eat in Germany.
    [?
    How you got him the ?] $5.
    So I used to eat one meal a day.
    I said, God, I'm hungry.
    I used to sleep just like a night.
    I was in bed, because I was hungry.
    I was getting dizzy from hunger.
    I said, that's America?
    In Germany, I had a job.
    I was working in a dental clinic.
    I was making a living.
    I had a nice apartment.
    And here, in golden America, I said, I'm hungry.
    Well, what's America?
    I find I can't get a job.
    I went to look for a job.
    I couldn't speak English.
    The guy said to me, in a dental laboratory, what can you do?
    How can I explain?
    I didn't know what he was talking to me.
    So I couldn't get a job.
    I was hungry.
    I had nobody, no friends here, nobody can help me here.
    I said, what good is it?
    If I had $100, yeah if figured I could take the first boat,
    a plane, or whatever it was.
    I was going back there.
    I said, I was hungry for 5, 4 years in concentration camps.
    Now, I come here and to be hungry?
    And again, I have to starve to death here?
    At least, in Germany, I wasn't hungry after the war.
    I got a job.
    I was working.
    And I was teaching.
    I was teaching for the ORT.
    You know the ORT
    Yes.
    They had a school in Munich.
    I was an assistant teacher there,
    for the dental laboratory, for the kids to teach them a trade.
    So I had an income, and I wasn't hungry.
    I was dressed nice.
    I was making--
    I hate Germany, but, at least, I wasn't hungry there.
    Here, I came to America.
    I said, what good is that?
    And finally, the HIAS got me a name
    to go for a Jewish man for a job.
    I went to interview.
    He spoke Yiddish, because he came as a kid from Europe here.
    And he gave me a job.
    I had to work for nothing.
    Because he knew that HIAS give me $20 a week.
    So he said, why should you pay me?
    And I asked the boss of me.
    So he says to me, you got to work for nothing before you
    learn how to speak English.
    And I knew the business, already.
    He owned the lab?
    Yeah, and there's two people working
    for him, two young Christian boys,
    that I knew more than they knew.
    I used to show them what to do.
    They were making money.
    And I wasn't getting paid.
    He wasn't paying a penny.
    Not a penny.
    Well, what is knowing English have to do
    with working in the dental lab?
    Did I know any laws, that this was against the law?
    Did I know anything?
    I didn't know anything.
    Couldn't you complain to HIAS?
    To whom?
    The HIAS.
    They were happy that they got me--
    They figure, I'll get used to it.
    I'll learn.
    But they didn't mind helping me out.
    But you figure, eventually, I'll learn something,
    and I'll get independent.
    Or I'll start--
    Yeah, but without any money, how could you
    start your own business?
    No, no.
    I mean, I'll get a job eventually.
    And make it.
    You'll be able to say you have experience.
    Yeah.
    And another [? small thing, ?] I figure, I get a job with pay.
    And he took advantage of me.
    Everybody worked eight hours, seven hours.
    Everybody go home.
    He says if I do his errands.
    I used to work 10 hours a day.
    He figure he got a slave, here.
    And I broke [? my ass. ?] I didn't know any better.
    And after six months, people in the building there,
    with our laboratories, offered me
    some jobs, because they knew I could do the work.
    So I came here, one day, to him.
    And I told him, I said, I cannot work anymore for nothing.
    By that time, I could read [INAUDIBLE] English.
    I going already to school at night.
    So he says to me, you greenhorns, all right.
    You come to America.
    You want to get rich.
    I said, rich?
    I said, I just want to eat.
    I don't want get rich.
    I just want to eat breakfast and dinner.
    I don't want to get rich.
    I said, right now, I'm having one meal a day.
    I said, I'm hungry the whole day here.
    So he gave me $20 a week.
    The other guys were making $50 a week, $40.
    And I did all of the work, mine and theirs.
    [AUDIO OUT]
    I say to myself, I'll learn as much.
    Someday, I'll [INAUDIBLE].
    And one thing I said to myself, one thing, that I did
    stay there.
    He was one of the best dental technicians in Boston
    I ever seen.
    He was a craftsman.
    You don't find too many around like that.
    Even if he was an [INAUDIBLE]?
    I figure to myself, I learn as much as I can.
    Someday, I'll be better than him.
    And someday, he may be working for me.
    And I watch him like a rock.
    He made a move with me, I watched him.
    Every time I had a minute, at least,
    I used to watch what he's doing.
    And I learned whatever I could as much as I could.
    And I was with him for four years.
    Four years?
    Yeah, then from $20, he gave me then $30, then $40.
    And then four years later, a salesman came up to me, one day.
    He said to me, Jack, I want to see you, lunchtime,
    in the building.
    He said, there's a guy, a laboratory, [? famous ?] chemist
    way out the other side of town.
    They're looking for a man like you.
    He said, he's paying good money.
    I said, how much they pay?
    He said, whatever you make, he will double.
    I was making $40 a week.
    So I said-- he said to me, I'll set up the appointment.
    Go and see him.
    He said, if you're not working, go and see him.
    I went over to see him.
    I walk in.
    And the guy said, well, what I can do?
    I need a job.
    He says to me, I'll start off at $90.
    So I said, I thought the guy was kidding me.
    Here, I'm making $40.
    The man's offering me $90.
    So I said, it must be a joke.
    I said, are you kidding me?
    So he looked at me.
    He said, no.
    He said, you want the money?
    You can do the work.
    I said, I'll be glad to give you $90 a week.
    I said, fine.
    I said, I'll give them notice.
    So I go the next month.
    I told them, I said, I'm leaving the job.
    He said, what's the matter?
    I said, I can make $90 a week now, not $40.
    I said, and not kiss anybody's tuchus every day.
    He says to me, you mean, after all that I did for you, now
    you're going to leave me?
    I said what you did for me?
    You worked for him.
    I said, I worked for you, for nothing, for months.
    And then you pay me $20 a week, I said.
    And you did for me?
    I said, I did for you more than you ever did for me.
    So I left, and I went to work with that goyishe fellow.
    I worked for him.
    He didn't offer you $90 at that point?
    This guy, the first guy you worked for.
    Yeah.
    Did he say to you, I'll give you $90?
    No.
    He wouldn't.
    No.
    He reached his limit.
    No.
    No, he thought I was cheating him.
    But when I left, the following week, I didn't show up.
    I told him, I give notice.
    He called the house.
    He's going to give me $90.
    I said, you're too late.
    I'm already working on my other job.
    So I went to work for the other job.
    And it was a Greek fellow.
    And--
    Is he dead?
    Yeah, he's dead by now.
    So I worked for him two years.
    The second year I was there, the Jewish holidays
    came up during the week.
    So I took off the Jewish holidays.
    I wouldn't work.
    And for two years, I was never a day late and never a day sick.
    So it came payday, Friday, he deducted it,
    two days for the Jewish holidays.
    That bothered me.
    I said, George, I said, how long I work here?
    He said, two years.
    I never missed a day?
    He said, no.
    Have I been sick in two years?
    I'm a minute late?
    He said, no.
    I said, how come you took me off from my Jewish holidays?
    He said, Jack, it's your holiday.
    See, if I pay you, I got to pay the other help, too, the Goyim.
    I said, George, but you paid them so far.
    And I say you cannot afford to pay me for two days of Jewish
    holidays in two years of work here?
    I said, I didn't want to work for you anymore.
    That means you have no respect for me.
    I said, I'll be leaving you, George.
    He says, wait a minute.
    He tears out the check.
    And he runs back home.
    Come back with a new check, paying me.
    I said, no, George, you didn't appreciate me, I said.
    I worked here for two years.
    I broke my back.
    I said I built the business for you, up.
    But that time, I already spoke English.
    I was over there for years.
    Rosh Hashanah, it was?
    Was Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, yeah.
    Yom Kippur came out on the weekend, that time.
    Rosh Hashanah came out during the week.
    So I said, I'll be leaving you, George.
    By that time, a friend of mine told me,
    Jack, that a Jew fellow in Newton, [INAUDIBLE] out there.
    He has a laboratory.
    He's looking--
    Just let me ask a question a minute.
    Did you think he was an antisemite?
    Well, sure.
    I find out, later on--
    I heard this from a Jewish dentist, who didn't [INAUDIBLE]
    said, he was known in Framingham.
    He was never a Jew-lover.
    Because I told him I'm leaving.
    That's the way.
    It just didn't turn out.
    He asked me how come?
    I told a story.
    Oh, Jack said, why is so surprised?
    I said, why?
    He said George is annoying.
    He never loved the Jewish people, anyway.
    He never had Jewish friends in his life.
    I didn't know.
    But he needed me, so he paid me.
    So I went to work for a Jewish guy in Newton.
    He started me off at $100 a week.
    And I worked there.
    That was a big operation.
    There was more people there.
    And I took over, there, on the business.
    And after a year-- and two years, I was there.
    And the man had a heart attack, one day, during working hours.
    He went to the hospital.
    And I took him to hospital, I drove him down.
    He almost died in the car.
    I should have called an ambulance.
    I took him myself.
    And he was off.
    He was off sick for three months.
    And I ran his business, for him, for three months,
    the whole operation for him.
    And when he came home from hospital,
    he called me in one day.
    And he gives me a check with some money.
    I said, Morrie, what's this?
    He said, that's my thanks for you for [INAUDIBLE].
    I said, you owe me nothing.
    I said, what for, I said?
    I worked for you, I said.
    You were good to me all the years.
    So you were sick.
    We have to owe me nothing.
    I wouldn't take it.
    How many years did you work for him?
    Two years.
    And the people--
    But it was nice that he offered.
    Yeah, very nice.
    So he was a mensch.
    He was a mensch And he was good to me.
    And he was-- and when I worked there,
    the people who worked there, we had a big, big [? gold there.
    ?] They used to steal.
    When I was working there, I used to stop it.
    I could say, not my business.
    But when I took over, I called the help in.
    I said, guys, Morris in the hospital.
    And I'm running the place now.
    If any of you takes as much as a penny off of this place,
    you're out of a job.
    If you want something, ask me.
    Because I don't want to be covering things
    I don't know about.
    The guys worked their ass off for me.
    They really worked for me.
    When he came back, the business was going the same,
    just like he was there.
    But that time, I decided, if I can run his business,
    now, it's time to have my own business.
    So I came in one day and I told, him, I
    want to go into business for myself.
    He said to me, whatever I can do for you, I'll do it.
    Just if you need money, whatever you need.
    I said, no, I'll go.
    I said, the only thing I'll ask you,
    I said, in case, I don't make it on my own,
    can I get a job, with you, back?
    He said, the door is open for you, anytime.
    You want to come back, there's a door open for you.
    But he said, I hope you don't have to come.
    I want you to make a success in the business.
    How many dental businesses, like that, were there in Boston
    at the time?
    Oh, a lot.
    So he didn't feel you would be a direct competitor to him?
    Oh, no, no, because I'll have a different neighborhood.
    I was maybe 15 miles away from him.
    You mentioned something, before, about the greenhorns, this guy.
    What were the American Jews like, in general,
    when you met them and they saw that you came from Europe?
    Well, I was disappointed in most of them.
    They look down on me-- on us.
    The American people--
    I mean, if you're born, like here, if they are born here,
    they were more sympathetic and more
    helpful than the greenhorns who came here, before,
    like before the First War.
    And they thought--
    They were more insecure.
    They came here from Europe before the First War.
    But they didn't realize, when I was born, 40 years later,
    that's not the same Europe.
    But they came from these shtetlach with no training.
    They never saw a car till they get to America.
    Well, I was born with cars in Europe,
    already, with headlights.
    They thought that Europe was still way back.
    Pardon me, the shit house still in the backyard.
    They thought we are still living with the lights, with the lamps.
    And I told them that, oh, you want to see a car?
    I said, well, what do you mean, see a car?
    When I told them, I saw a car, they
    thought I was lying to them.
    What mean, you seen a car?
    We never had a car in my town.
    But he didn't realize that he came here in 1918.
    Now, America didn't have cars neither at that time.
    Was only a few cars in 1918 here.
    In 1918, not every house had lights in America.
    And not every house had a shower in his house eight years ago.
    They thought that people lied to them.
    They were down on us.
    In the time, so, when you opened up your own business,
    what happened then?
    Well.
    But no, I got married already before that.
    When did you meet?
    We met at a Jewish dance.
    No.
    No, when.
    I said when?
    When?
    Well, we were married in 1956.
    I don't remember.
    Yeah, I think it was a year or two before.
    Maybe a year or so.
    So that before you opened your own business?
    Oh, yeah.
    You opened it in '59?
    He opened it the day she turned a year old.
    My daughter was a year old that day, on her birthday.
    She was my lucky child.
    He was in business 30 years this March.
    This March, was 30 years I was in business.
    And I met her.
    She was working.
    She actually had a good job.
    She's a chemist.
    You're a chemist?
    Yeah, I was.
    I was.
    She doesn't work anymore.
    I haven't worked as a chemist since she was born.
    I wouldn't take a chance doing it now.
    What?
    Where did you go to school?
    University of Massachusetts.
    At Amherst?
    Uh-huh.
    I graduated in 1952.
    She an old bag already.
    That's pretty good.
    Not too many women.
    It wasn't so common for women--
    Not too many women, that's right.
    --college in '52.
    They only took 100 students the year
    I was there at University of Massachusetts.
    That's all that got in.
    And your major was chemistry?
    Chemistry and food technology.
    So you were married in '56.
    Where did you two meet?
    At a dance, a Jewish, a Jewish dance they had in town.
    I don't remember.
    I can't even remember where it was.
    It was-- I think it was John Hancock Hall or something.
    Who sponsored it?
    Jewish groups?
    Some Jewish groups, yeah.
    Jewish groups.
    I don't know.
    Yeah, some Jewish organizations used to sponsor dances.
    I went with a cousin of mine, who's now dead a long time.
    That's where we met.
    And then we got married.
    And then David was born.
    And I decided, the day of her birthday, March 9,
    I'll go in business, because she was lucky child.
    He was doing a few jobs in the house at night.
    Your father survived the war?
    Yeah.
    Your mother didn't.
    My mother died in camps.
    And you had brothers and sisters.
    I had two brothers.
    One is here.
    One is here.
    Where does he live?
    I haven't seen him in years.
    Haven't seen him in years?
    No.
    He cracked up for a while.
    He got married.
    He married a shiksa, that I wasn't happy about it.
    But it's related to the war, his problems?
    Yeah.
    He's older or younger than you?
    Younger than me.
    Does he live in New York or?
    No, he lives around here, someplace,
    in Queens or [INAUDIBLE] someplace.
    I try to find out.
    I invited him to my son's [YIDDISH].
    Never came to anything.
    Not my son's bar mitzvah or anything.
    When you first came to America, was it different then?
    Oh, yeah, it was different.
    But I even paid for his weddings, for divorces.
    I paid for his divorces.
    And my father came here.
    My father lived with us till the day he died.
    Well, not quite-- till he got sick.
    Till he got sick, I mean.
    He went--
    Was he able to work when he came?
    Yeah, he was a tailor.
    He was a tailor.
    A tailor, yeah.
    Worked for Kennedy's.
    Just like his brother, he worked for the Kennedy's as a tailor?
    Yeah, Kennedy's Department Stores.
    Here, in Boston, was a department store.
    They called it Kennedy's.
    He was a tailor over there.
    I'm sure you regret it, about your brother,
    but what can you do?
    That's the life.
    What can you do?
    But he's your only brother, right?
    He doesn't want to.
    He's mad, because I was upset, because he never.
    He ignored my father.
    He never used to come to my father to visit.
    He was always--
    Only came when he needed money.
    He needed money, something, he should come to me.
    He needed money to bail him out, because he had tickets
    for parking or trouble there.
    He needed a lawyer for divorce, he came to me.
    When he needed money, he came to me.
    Otherwise, never seen him.
    And then he had a nervous breakdown
    and spent time in hospital.
    I had to take him out.
    They kept him there.
    But so I figure, I'll leave him alone.
    Well, maybe someday.
    I hope.
    Maybe he'll come.
    I hope.
    Maybe he'll come back.
    We never lose hope with family.
    Oh, no.
    People make [INAUDIBLE] sometimes,
    and then they see 10 years, 15 years.
    Anyway.
    So you went in the business.
    And you set it up, and it became a successful business.
    Yeah.
    I worked day or night.
    I opened up business.
    I worked seven days a week, worked 14, 15 hours.
    Seven days a week?
    Yeah.
    Whenever-- I had no help.
    I couldn't afford to hire anybody.
    I had to do everything by myself.
    So I used to work all kind of hours, worked Saturday, Sunday,
    worked 12, 13, 14 hours a day, whatever I have to.
    If you're [INAUDIBLE] got build up a business.
    Most of my dentists are with me for 30 years, my customers.
    From the day I opened, I still, up to this day.
    And now you're going to Israel?
    Right.
    Yeah.
    You're not sure, right?
    You're waiting till you see it?
    I'm waiting till I've seen the tickets and we're packed.
    All these years, he had an excuse, right?
    No, that was not an excuse.
    Because he was working.
    But now?
    So he said he's going.
    But like I said, I'm not packing until I see the tickets.
    Did you make the arrangements already?
    Well, I'm going to go--
    Not yet.
    I hope to go at the end of this fall.
    We have friends that are waiting for him to decide, too.
    I have a lot of friends, who, if I'll go--
    they're American friends.
    Listen, you'll get treated well there.
    You'll have Shilansky.
    He's an important fellow.
    There's a whole bunch of people, who are survivors from Shavl,
    there.
    There's maybe about 10 or 11.
    Your man David said he was going to get them
    all together if you ever went.
    Is there a Shavl society in New York?
    I don't know.
    Not a Shavler, a Lithuania, a Lithuania society.
    Do you belong to it?
    Yeah.
    From here, do you go there sometimes?
    I used to go.
    I used to go.
    I used to go.
    But I haven't been the last 10 years.
    I haven't gone.
    They have a memorial each year.
    But I go to more--
    Epstein still go to it.
    One of them goes there, but I usually
    go to memorials, here, in Boston.
    Why did you stop going?
    I don't know.
    It's too much for me.
    I get back-- takes me a couple of days, till I get--
    Like the same thing, I was a witness to a Nazi trial.
    You were a witness?
    Yeah.
    And that shook me up so bad, it took me months
    before I came out after that.
    How did they get-- you were in Stutthof and Dachau?
    In Dachau, yeah.
    No, they got back from Shavl, from the ghetto.
    Oh, this was a [?
    Nazi working with the government. ?]
    He keeps having the government come in here interviewing him.
    I had a government that came here.
    Where's the letter from the guy?
    A couple of months ago, a guy got killed in a plane crash.
    Was it Bernstein?
    Yeah, Bernstein was in it.
    He was working for the government.
    He worked for the government.
    Trying to export Nazis.
    To deport.
    Yeah, deport, I meant not export.
    He got killed.
    It's the same principle.
    He got killed in that plane crash that crashed in Ireland.
    I seem to remember something like this.
    He was on his way back from Israel or something.
    I seem to remember that.
    Where do you [INAUDIBLE]
    There's a letter from him.
    I don't know.
    Yeah, Michael Bernstein, assistant deputy director
    of [INAUDIBLE].
    Oh, you typed out the thing and stuck.
    This is not long ago, April 22, 1988.
    Yeah, but they've been coming over the years.
    That was one of the last ones.
    Plane crash.
    Quest ended by plane crash-- so you knew
    this fellow, Michael Bernstein.
    One of more than 5,200 attorneys employed died in the crash
    of the Pan American flights, the one--
    the one by Lockerbie.
    The one that crashed in--
    Yeah, in Ireland, yeah.
    The one that crashed in Ireland.
    He worked in a small, crowded office.
    Where is this reported, in what newspaper?
    It was the Boston Globe.
    It was the Boston Globe.
    In the Boston Globe.
    Worked for an inconspicuous section
    of the Justice Department.
    And he was 36 years old.
    He was a young fellow, whose job was to denaturalize and deport
    Nazi collaborators.
    He was a Nazi hunter.
    And,
    Well, I thought maybe you knew about it.
    I now remember it.
    But I had only skimmed it.
    There was not a big article about it in The Times.
    I still want to see the letter.
    This is a letter he sent you?
    Yeah.
    It says--
    Or one of them.
    One of them.
    This is just all over the house, someplace.
    I'll give you--
    Some girls came one year.
    Yeah.
    Dear Mr. Novin, on April 8, 1988, the US District Court
    in Chicago set aside Antanas Virkutis' US citizenship,
    thereby granting the relief sought by the US
    and foreign [? suit. ?] Because of Virkutis seriously impaired
    and deteriorating physical condition,
    the US has decided against taking
    the potentially futile further step of bringing a deportation
    act.
    On behalf of the US Department of Justice,
    I want to thank you for your readiness to provide evidence
    to make good this case.
    Please feel free to call me collect at the number below.
    If you wish to discuss the resolution of Virkutis case--
    and it's signed by Michael Bernstein, who
    was an assistant deputy director, Office of Criminal
    Investigations.
    And he gives you his telephone number.
    Now, when was it that you testified?
    Well, that was in another case.
    It goes back--
    They kept coming back to come up with a [INAUDIBLE]
    This goes back to the ghetto in Shavl.
    In Shavl ghetto was a hanging.
    So he's talking about this thing.
    This one here?
    They keep coming.
    They kept coming to the house.
    They came to my house, two lawyers from Washington,
    a couple years ago.
    Was another trial for some Nazis.
    Another Nazi, yeah.
    But one case was a couple years back.
    It was
    Oh, a long time-- the kids were little.
    18 years ago, there was a case that happened in ghetto.
    It was a hanging.
    Oh, it was before your father died.
    And you didn't want to go because of the [INAUDIBLE].
    That's right.
    To Germany.
    It was over 20 years ago.
    They wanted him to go to Germany.
    And it was a hanging.
    And the commandant, Nazi, they caught him in Germany.
    And there's only a few left from us
    from Lithuania, who were at ghetto at the hanging.
    I was a kid that time.
    And the want me to go to Germany to testify there in [INAUDIBLE].
    And I refused to go to Germany.
    My father was sick.
    He had a heart attack.
    And I told them, I wouldn't go to Germany, because I won't go.
    I have bad memories.
    And I wouldn't go.
    But I'll be glad to testify any place in this country,
    in the German embassy or whatever,
    in Boston, to the consul there.
    I'll be glad to give my testimony about this.
    I will not go to Germany.
    So they keep going back and forth, back and forth.
    Finally, they decided that I cannot do in Boston,
    because Boston is a consulate not an embassy.
    And the German ambassador is in New York.
    Would I be come into New York if they
    bring the whole, the lawyer and the prosecutor,
    and the whole caboodle to New York?
    I said, yes.
    I'll be able to go to New York any time.
    So they set up a date.
    And they brought in a state prosecutor
    and his lawyer and a judge, all from Germany, to New York.
    And I went to the German Embassy in New York.
    But I wouldn't go to Germany.
    You didn't want to go there.
    No.
    What do you think about all these trials?
    What's your opinion about all this?
    I think they should go on.
    That people--
    You think they should?
    Wait, Leslie, if she screaming, it comes in on the tape.
    It's OK.
    It's fine.
    So what will happen?
    Because it goes on there, at least people
    don't forget about it.
    And if it weren't for the trials,
    there's thousands of Nazi going around here,
    murderers going around here free.
    And I think a lot of blame is our own government, right here.
    They brought them in here, knowing who they were.
    Like the lawyers who came here, from Washington,
    from their department, they said, the government
    brought them in.
    They knew who they were.
    Did they tell you why they brought them in?
    Did they explain?
    The reason they brought them in, that time,
    because they were all against communism.
    That was the big excuse, because they were fighting communism.
    You believe that?
    It's bullshit.
    That's what I thought.
    What do you think is the reason they brought them in?
    Because they didn't care.
    Can explain the Nazis by the Germans,
    just count the people who hated the Jewish people.
    They figure, why bring in all the refugee Jews
    and not bringing the Germans in?
    Don't forget, we're the best country in the world.
    But the Jews are not the favorite people in this country.
    And I think a Jew will never be a president in this country.
    You don't think so?
    Even though Kissinger was the Secretary of State.
    You know, something, he couldn't be president.
    That's a different story.
    He can be a Congressman, can be a Senator, everything.
    Do you think-- a Jew can never be a governor here,
    Mr. [INAUDIBLE].
    A Jew will never be a governor, here, in this state,
    although it's a Catholic state.
    Although Dukakis' wife is Jewish.
    Is not Jewish.
    Is [INAUDIBLE].
    I was going to ask you about that since you
    live in Massachusetts.
    The grandmother used to be my neighbor here.
    The grandmother?
    Yeah, came from around the corner.
    Her grandmother.
    Used to live around the corner.
    Her father's mother.
    She's dead now.
    Some people said that she didn't like being Jewish.
    No, she never did.
    And she never belonged to a temple.
    She never went to anything.
    Who, the grandma?
    The grandmother used to go with all--
    my father used to be friendly with her.
    But your father was never active.
    Because your father was never--
    yeah, the father, no.
    He plays with Pops Symphony.
    He was never with any Jewish people, organization
    or anything.
    Nothing to do with Jewish people.
    I heard that her mother wasn't Jewish.
    But I really don't know.
    Her mother wasn't Jewish.
    The father was Jewish.
    But the mother wasn't Jewish.
    Her mother was not Jewish?
    I don't think so.
    I don't know.
    Don't--
    No, I'm telling you, I know about it.
    I don't think she--
    I don't think.
    I think she's only half Jewish.
    No, the father.
    The father is Jewish.
    I think that that's [INAUDIBLE].
    She was never married to a Jew in her life.
    This was the second marriage.
    The first husband was not Jewish either.
    He wasn't Jewish.
    And they never [? stick. ?] And the kids
    are all brought up in church.
    None of them is anything to do with Jewish religion.
    So what's there?
    She now is, for politics, she's active now with the Holocaust,
    and here, there.
    So politics not because--
    She's--
    Her sister's married to a customer of his.
    Did you think he would have made a good president?
    Who, him?
    I don't know if he would really.
    I vote for him.
    You did vote.
    Yeah.
    But a good president, I don't know.
    Why did you vote for him?
    Why not Bush?
    I don't-- first think, I'm a Democrat.
    And the second thing, I didn't like Bush's group at that time.
    I know.
    The group is in Polish, and the clubs
    that even, the organizations that supported him.
    And if one of his managers was one who supported
    all the Nazis deportation.
    He was against deporting Nazis from this country.
    I remember that, now.
    Yeah.
    I remember that.
    You remember?
    Oh, sure he had a whole bunch of people.
    There was a whole group.
    And they resigned-- a big thing.
    They resigned.
    But they were still his advisors, not officially.
    It's not for that business, would you have voted for him?
    I really don't think I would.
    I don't think Bush was my favorite.
    I mean, let me ask you another way.
    When you vote for someone, do you--
    I consider a lot.
    What do you consider?
    I consider a lot the [? concentration camps.
    ?] I can see Israel is very powerful.
    I was going to ask you that, because I
    know that Bush was seen as being fairly pro-Israel.
    And Reagan was pro-Israel.
    Reagan was one of the best Israeli friends.
    You voted for him?
    No.
    You didn't vote.
    Oh, yeah, the second time.
    Yeah, first time--
    was good.
    Who you vote for first?
    Was Carter, I think.
    Mondale, I think.
    Mondale, I'm sorry.
    That's right.
    Mondale-- I voted for Mondale.
    But Mondale was one of the best friend to Israel
    Jewish people ever had in this country.
    Mondale, is he the one that ran with Ferraro?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    No, and I think that was the second time.
    Mondale was the second time.
    And Carter was the first time.
    Mondale was one of the best friends
    Jewish people in this country ever had.
    I didn't vote for Carter.
    I voted for Reagan.
    Mondale and Humphrey.
    Remember, before Humphrey was--
    '68.
    Yeah.
    Humphrey.
    And then came Mondale, took his job.
    And he was one of the best friends Israel--
    Jewish people in this country ever had.
    Do you think what happened to you in Europe,
    do you think that there's a possibility of something
    like that happening, here, in the United States?
    No question about it in my mind.
    No question.
    No question in my mind.
    You listen.
    You listen to the talk shows.
    You ever listen to Face the Nation--
    I mean, Crossfire?
    I didn't listen to it.
    But I know about--
    Pat Buchanan, all them guys.
    Well, he's a conservative.
    Right.
    He's the one who arranged for Reagan to go to the cemetery.
    In Bitburg.
    You ought to listen to them guys on the talk shows
    or read the papers in The Boston Globe.
    Do you ever listen?
    How many good headlines about this was going on.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    I don't see them, I mean, anything that, every day,
    there's thousands of people killed in Lebanon,
    between the Arabs and themselves.
    I don't see the headlines in the papers every day.
    Or what the Bulgarians did to the Turks, now.
    Even now.
    Right, every day, look for it.
    In Iran, Ayatollah, how many people
    did he kill, now, in Iran between themselves?
    There's not big headlines.
    But thank god in Israel--
    I don't care.
    I don't say Israeli are right.
    Don't get me wrong.
    I don't say everything he's doing is right there.
    A lot of things I don't agree with them,
    what they're doing there.
    I think it's awful, what they're doing there, too.
    And I think Israel has a big problem between themselves.
    Because there's 10 Jews and 50 parties.
    That's nature.
    That was in the camps.
    That was in the ghetto, the same thing.
    There was 10 Jews, and there was 10 fights.
    Do you think that if in the ghettos that there
    had been less than 10 parties or 10 groups, do
    you think that the Jews would have had
    a better chance of surviving?
    Then I'd probably say, you were fighting an organized army.
    That's a different ballgame.
    And we were helpless.
    Nothing we could do.
    We were locked in behind the wires,
    without anything-- hunger, starved, weak.
    What could?
    When you were in the camps, did someone in particular
    help you to survive?
    No.
    Were there people who helped you?
    Nobody.
    Nobody.
    Who could help?
    Everybody was in the same boat.
    Was a matter--
    If anybody tell you help, it was strictly luck.
    So I survived because of plain luck.
    I was young.
    I was healthy.
    I could work my head off.
    And that's the only thing, I survived.
    Otherwise.
    I.
    Joshua was also at Stutthof.
    Yeah.
    Did you know him there?
    No.
    Did you ever see him there?
    No.
    No.
    No.
    When you came to Stutthof, were you
    with a group of people from Shavl?
    From Shavl, yeah, they brought in.
    Did they help each other?
    They took the whole ghetto from Shavl, directly,
    from the ghetto.
    Just like they took his ghetto.
    Yeah, the same thing.
    And they took us by train to Stutthof.
    So we were all different Shavl there, all together.
    But what could anybody help you?
    They were all just in the same boat.
    We had nothing to do.
    They took away all your clothes.
    They gave you a uniform.
    That were the end of it.
    But someone could maybe organize a piece of bread for you
    or something like that.
    Everybody with a piece of bread was
    lucky to keep him for himself.
    People stole from their own children.
    Fathers took away the bread from their sons,
    and sons from the fathers.
    You saw that, yourself?
    Sure.
    Seen it.
    People turning like animals when you're hungry.
    Not everybody, but you see people,
    some were stealing piece of bread from his own father.
    Now, you had your father with you, right?
    Yeah, in Stutthof and in Dachau, we were together.
    Was he dependent on you to some extent?
    My father helped me out, because my father
    used to support me in camp.
    My father was lucky.
    He was a tailor.
    They were looking for tailors in camp.
    My father used to do all the tailoring for the Gestapo.
    You were only about 18, right, when you were in Dachau.
    When I got in.
    So my father used to do all the suits and uniforms.
    He custom made clothes for the guards and for officers.
    He usually bringing me a loaf of bread.
    He used sneak it in with the Germans.
    Do you think you would have survived without him?
    If you could have?
    Well, I survived three years without knowing where he
    were-- the first three years.
    Where were you the first three years, in the ghetto?
    They were, in family, ghetto, but I
    was in working camps, airport, I was building airports.
    Where, in Poland?
    Lithuania.
    Oh, Lithuania, you were building it.
    Yeah, from Shavl.
    Did you ever remember any time when
    you came really close to death?
    I mean, you were close the whole time.
    I mean, do you ever remember when
    they were getting ready to shoot you or something like that?
    Yeah.
    On my march from Dachau.
    We knew we were going to die.
    They were taking us up to the Alps to be killed.
    So how did you make it through that march?
    Because you were strong?
    I guess so, yeah.
    Because I was young, and I could walk.
    People died.
    The whole-- from Dachau to the Alps, in Tyrol,
    there was a line of death--
    lined up all the way.
    Every minute, people were dropping dead.
    Every minute.
    I heard some stories of some people
    who ran away from the line.
    Did you ever think of doing that?
    You couldn't afford to run.
    The dogs were right behind you.
    There were dogs.
    And where you going to run?
    You're in uniform.
    Where you going to run?
    To the Germans, that [INAUDIBLE] already.
    Why didn't they shoot you right on the spot?
    Why did they take you to the Alps?
    There was too many.
    In the Alps, they had mass graves dug up.
    See, they couldn't fit it in.
    There was thousands and thousands.
    They didn't want to-- they knew that they didn't
    want to leave any traces.
    So in the Alps, they got mass graves.
    There were put everybody in and cover over, and know
    one would ever know about it.
    How long were you marching?
    Four days.
    Four days.
    Yeah.
    No food and water.
    They gave you some?
    Bread and water once a day.
    Tell me, in the camps, there were people
    who did bad things, right?
    I mean to survive, sometimes you'll do anything.
    And I don't pass judgment or anything.
    They were stealing.
    They were stealing your shoes, your clothes from you.
    I mean in wintertime, it was cold.
    People used to freeze to death.
    I walked around one winter, my legs and my feet were that big.
    They were swollen from hunger and from cold.
    You could hardly walk.
    You had no clothes.
    You didn't have anything to wear.
    You just, in the concentration camps,
    wore the striped uniforms.
    That's all.
    And you walked outside, and 5, 10 below 0 temperature,
    in the cold.
    Do any people who survived together,
    with you, on that march that are still alive?
    Are you in touch with them?
    Yeah, the one in Israel.
    The one who is in the Knesset.
    Shilansky.
    Shilansky.
    And my other friend, the professor--
    Golan.
    --Golan, yeah.
    Are there any people in America who were with you on that march?
    On that march?
    Not in Boston.
    There is, in New York, I think a few.
    I don't know if he's alive or out.
    They were a doctor.
    Were there any Jews in the camp who seemed to enjoy or seemed
    to enjoy their job if they were kapos?
    Kapos?
    There was few kapos.
    Jewish?
    Yeah.
    Did they make it after the war?
    Yeah.
    They made it.
    Some of them got beaten up after the war.
    In Germany, the guys beat them up.
    But after a while, it's forgotten about it.
    But they're still Jewish, you know?
    And some of them went to Israel.
    And some of them went to America.
    Some.
    Some of them, yeah.
    Yeah.
    Sure.
    Everybody was fighting for survival.
    And some people didn't care how they did it,
    even if they had to turn in you and point a finger on you,
    that you stole something.
    Like my brother, he got beaten so bad.
    We were going to work in the morning in camp.
    And he turned around, and he stole a potato--
    two potatoes.
    We walked by a farm.
    We were working a farm.
    And then he bend over.
    He [? picked bread. ?]
    And the kapo pointed to the guard
    that my brother stole the potatoes.
    When we came back to the camp, they tied him up to a pole.
    I guess that didn't help much neither.
    He's younger than me, a young kid.
    Sure.
    They took him apart, almost.
    And the kapo turned him in.
    Well, when you think back on this whole experience
    and everything, what do you feel you learned about human nature?
    That's a good question.
    You know, you learn a lot from that kind of condition,
    who people are.
    When things goes good and everything is nice,
    everybody is your friend.
    I find out, even when I came here,
    I had people, who came here, refugees
    who came before me, right?
    What happen?
    I didn't have a job.
    They have, already, jobs.
    They were going out on dates and going to dances.
    They had a car already.
    I didn't have a car.
    I was just-- they were here a couple years ahead of me.
    And so when we go out to the beach or whatever,
    so each one used to pitch in a $1 to put gas in it.
    A whole day, they just wouldn't talk to me.
    It came Saturday, we should go out, they never called me.
    Because I didn't have $1 to put gas in the car.
    So they wouldn't take me to the beach with them.
    So you learned from that.
    I never forgot it, neither.
    Later, when I go independent, when I join a private company,
    and I start playing golf, I never
    had anything to do with them.
    And they called me, a snob.
    I say, I'm not a snob.
    Because you forgot, I didn't have $1 to put gas in your car.
    I wasn't good enough.
    Now, I said, I don't need you guys.
    Not too much now, because to me, you're really not.
    You're not really friends of mine.
    But even so, you want to be nice to people, right?
    I'm still nice.
    I never ignore them.
    And if they should come to me for something, I never.
    They used to come to me.
    They used to break their teeth, come into me to help them out.
    I never even charged them.
    But I never-- not do that there.
    I mean, I wouldn't go over there.
    I wouldn't associate with them.
    But they came to me, never let him down.
    Always talk.
    I never think.
    But I wouldn't socialize with them.
    Socially, I would not do with them.
    When it came to me, their problems,
    used to call me every day, some guy come over there.
    Always help them out.
    But socially I will not deal with them.
    They weren't embarrassed to come to you?
    No, they have the nerve to come to me
    and asked me or keep bugging me to help them.
    I never even charged them.
    Never asked for $1.
    Just I do a favor.
    Goodbye, Charlie.
    Go away.
    Socially-- nothing to do with them.
    Did you ever feel that if you would
    explain to people, what happened in the camps,
    that they wouldn't understand it anyway?
    That's why I never bother.
    I don't think they'll understand.
    Because I don't understand.
    Now, you said to me that sometimes you
    feel like it wasn't even real.
    Is it possible to feel that way--
    Sometimes.
    --after all, you went through.
    You take some things what has happened, and you wonder,
    did it really happen?
    Because there's some thing, can a human--
    a human really do things like that--
    take a baby and throw him to a dog?
    You stop, really.
    How do you think it was possible to do something like that?
    Well, that's how people turned in.
    They took people for nothing.
    They just shot them and kill them for nothing.
    They killed people.
    I was walking in the airport building--
    what do you call it the hangars for the planes?
    A hangar, you call them.
    Yes, a hangar.
    Yeah.
    We were on top of the roofs.
    Working, putting the roofs on.
    And just for fun, the Nazis used to push you down from there,
    see how long it'll take you to drop dead and get killed--
    for fun.
    That was fun for them.
    They go behind you and just-- phtt.
    And they used to stay and laugh and used to applaud.
    They used to figure out how long it will take before you're dead.
    Didn't you look at these people and say to yourself,
    they're animals.
    Yeah.
    That's right.
    But we couldn't do nothing about it.
    Isn't it amazing when you think about it, that these people went
    back to their homes, in Germany, after the war,
    and they raised families.
    And they run the government.
    Who you think run the thing?
    Who are, after they war, the government in Germany?
    The same Nazis, who came in, came back,
    and they run the government.
    So when you see younger Germans today,
    who were not alive during the war, how do you feel about them?
    That's a good question, too.
    Like I'm a golfer.
    And I like golf.
    There's a German golfer now playing
    in America, here, Langer.
    And every time he plays, maybe it's wrong for me,
    I shouldn't do it.
    But every time he play, I say, I hope he loses.
    Or Boris Becker, the tennis, the German tennis player.
    Becker, the tennis player, yeah
    Steffi Graf.
    Yeah.
    Maybe they have nothing to do with the war.
    But I feel his father maybe was involved in my mother's death.
    You can't help that.
    It's nature.
    This p