- Tape.
- It's running.
- Trudy, I'm speaking in Brengen, in Switzerland, outside Zurich.
- Benglen, Benglen.
- Benglen, Benglen, the 12th of October,
- 1994 with Gertrude Trudy Solarová.
- And we're having a conversation about music
- and about Trudy's musical life and acquaintances in Prague
- and in Pilsen, and so on.
- I want to say to the following.
- This is how we start.
- Edith Kraus told me that you owe her a piece of bread.
- Do I?
- Yes.
- And I said, Edith, what piece of bread?
- Because Trudy wanted to play the Italian concerto of Bach.
- Yeah?
- There were no notes in Terezín.
- Ah, yeah?
- And Edith said, I wrote it down from memory.
- Oh, and I did.
- And Trudy said she would give me a piece of bread.
- Tell her, please.
- I'm still waiting for the piece of bread.
- Oh, thank you so much, I'll say.
- Do you remember that?
- No, I don't.
- But I'm very pleased about it.
- I'll give her this piece of bread.
- And I say her very, very, very much
- thank you for it because I don't remember it.
- And I'm ashamed.
- I really don't remember it.
- But do you remember wanting to play the Italian concerto?
- Yeah.
- And I did play it, of course.
- I did play.
- And she wrote it for you?
- That I don't remember.
- She said, she wrote it down from memory.
- I don't remember.
- It's amazing if she did it.
- I know.
- It's amazing.
- I didn't know that.
- I know.
- I know.
- I know.
- I know.
- Look, OK, let's go back and just say a few words
- about your own musical background--
- where your education was, what you were doing before Terezín.
- Oh, I started music like a little baby.
- I was about, oh, only six years.
- And some-- I used this horn of a car and cried,
- mommy, mommy, mimi.
- And they to the piano.
- And they looked for the tune.
- And they found it.
- And they said, oh, she's not even going to school.
- But let her teach music.
- And I had a very nice teacher which
- was not a very good teacher.
- But then after one year, two years, she said, it's a pity.
- Let her have a better teacher because she's very musician.
- So and I had a professor, which was Hilda Stern,
- I remember, was her name.
- I think Hilda Stern.
- And she was the assistant of Eduard Steuermann.
- You know his name?
- Sure, of course.
- Yeah.
- And then I got to Steuermann.
- I was a pupil of Eduard Steuermann.
- This was in Vienna?
- Yeah, in Vienna, still in Vienna.
- And in '38, when Vienna was occupied by Hitler,
- my father was Czech.
- Czech nationality, I was obviously the [NON-ENGLISH]
- in school, you know?
- So I went-- one year before, I had not even
- finished a gymnasium, but I went because I went to Prague
- and joined-- it was a German gymnasium in Mikulandská
- in Prague.
- And I went to William Kurz, not the first year, after--
- I had first year to do with school.
- And so after one year, and it was about '39, I suppose,
- I went to Kurz William Kurz.
- And you know his name from [GERMAN]..
- And he taught me.
- And there, of course, I met Gideon
- because he was absolutely number one at that.
- That was in the master class?
- It was.
- I couldn't join in a class.
- It was the Jews.
- Oh, I see.
- And I was a private pupil, like every Jew there.
- We couldn't go to--
- I would have gone to the master class.
- I could not.
- So he went.
- And he took me like a master class, but privately.
- And you do know it.
- I'm very, very amazed about that.
- But he didn't ask money from me.
- Did he teach you at home or in the school?
- In his home.
- In his home?
- Yeah, in his home.
- And at that time, did you still have--
- --on [CZECH],, in Prague, in [CZECH]..
- And I remember exactly, once, it was very mad about it
- because I had to make my earning to live.
- And I gave lessons in German in Prague.
- And being from Vienna, it was no problem for me
- to teach German, of course.
- And I had to earn my money for a living for playing my room,
- by the room.
- And I hired a piano.
- And so I was busy.
- And I was going to school, of course.
- And he thought, I'm--
- Professor Kurz, of course, thought
- I'm absolutely lazy because I didn't work as much as he
- wanted because I was busy.
- Once, he took the--
- had the musics, the musics--
- The notes.
- --the notes, yes.
- And he throw them against the door.
- And without this, you're getting buried.
- And I remember sitting there on the staircases,
- and weeping, and weeping, and couldn't get out.
- I held out.
- But you continued with him even so.
- Of course, it did.
- And then they had two months of vacances, you know.
- And they had no school and no lessons.
- And I worked eight hours a day.
- And when I came and I played him, he was very astonished.
- And he got up.
- And he embraced me.
- And kissed me on the forehead.
- And from this moment, it was absolutely changed.
- Up till then, it was a few months,
- he showed me his, this--
- how to say, this--
- unsympathetic-- how do you say in English, his--
- Displeasure.
- --displeasure, yeah.
- And from this moment, he was so impressed
- because I learned in these two months
- a whole-- it was a sonata.
- I don't know.
- I think-- which was it?
- I think the a whole sonata.
- It was the 30--
- What was 31?
- It was the number--
- Tempest?
- Tempest, yes, and then had the first album
- of the Chopin etudes.
- And that is hard work.
- Chopin, obviously.
- And then in two months, as you know,
- it was very-- he was very thrilled.
- And from this moment, he behaved to me with very--
- absolutely with-- he honored me, somehow.
- With respect.
- With respect, yes, that's it-- very, very nice.
- He changed so much.
- And of course, I remember all of them.
- And Gideon was very-- and he had in his place in [CZECH],,
- he had every--
- I don't know exactly.
- But he had once in a year or twice a year, he
- had performances, private performances.
- In the apartment?
- In his place, yeah.
- Because he was living with Eliska,
- also, I believe, at that time.
- No, no, no.
- No?
- He had his own place?
- Oh, no, I talk about Kurz, excuse me.
- Oh, still about Kurz.
- Yeah, I talk about--
- I [CROSS TALK] about Kurz, yeah.
- Oh, Kurz, I understand.
- And he had hit performances.
- And I played only once because the others played much more
- often.
- And always when Gideon played, it was really--
- an [GERMAN].
- What is it in English, an [GERMAN]??
- [GERMAN]?
- [GERMAN]
- I don't remember.
- Never mind, I'll catch it later.
- It was-- it was a big thing when he played.
- Do you remember some works he played at that time?
- He played, I remember one--
- I remember him, it was "Appassionata" playing.
- It was [INAUDIBLE].
- Yeah, I remember the "Appassionata" of him, yeah.
- I liked it so much.
- Yeah.
- And then Gideon went to Terezín.
- I didn't know it, but Kurz told me that he was very sad.
- And not long after that, I had to go.
- We were aufgeboten.
- It was a-- we came-- became a letter where my transport
- number was AU1772--
- AU1772.
- And you went with your--
- did you have family?
- I absolutely--
- No, you were just there yourself.
- I was absolutely by my-- my sister went to England.
- She went like a cheery child, exactly--
- she was with me in Prague about two months.
- And then she went because she was
- at the age she could go to England.
- On the Kindertransport?
- Kindertransport.
- And I was too old for that, a half a year too old.
- So my sister went to England.
- And I was occupied by myself.
- Before you had to go yourself, you obviously
- knew that people were going to Terezín.
- Yeah, but that--
- You knew about it.
- But had you gotten your notification,
- do you remember when you got your actual notice to go?
- Yeah, in May '42.
- And I went in May '42.
- A fortnight before I got it, I know that--
- in what is the second half of May,
- I don't know exactly the day, maybe the 15th or--
- and quickly.
- Did any reports come back to those of you
- still in Prague about what Terezín was?
- But now comes the interesting thing.
- Now, I want to tell you.
- And I went to Kurz to say him.
- And he said, don't worry.
- I'll let know Gideon.
- And he'll take care of you.
- Don't worry, he said.
- No.
- And the first thing he said, do you want to stay?
- Shall I try to hide you?
- And I said, no.
- Excuse me.
- And I said, no.
- I don't want the risk for you.
- It's great of him.
- He offered me to hide me.
- I said, no, I don't think so.
- And then he said, if you go there, don't worry,
- because Gideon will take care of you.
- And he, I don't know which connection he
- had to Gideon, maybe via Eliza, maybe,
- I don't know whether Eliska.
- I know-- I don't know.
- But he got--
- He wrote to him?
- I don't think he wrote him.
- I don't know.
- But he left--
- He left a note with somebody.
- --note to somebody.
- And really don't know.
- I'm very interesting to know.
- I would like to know how it happened.
- But I don't know.
- And when I came out, it's a very interesting thing
- because my life is saved by Gideon.
- You know it from the book maybe.
- Because I know and the whole transport was a Straftransport.
- And it went directly to Poland.
- There was no Auschwitz still at that time.
- It was some-- it was Auschwitz [? family ?] camp, I think.
- And a few ones, about--
- I don't know, four or five--
- or I can't say how much, but a few ones
- were kept immediately, taken out of the transport, which just--
- which didn't stay even a night.
- They just went away from--
- I don't know.
- Maybe we stayed the night.
- But I didn't see them because I was--
- when we arrived by transport, they called a few numbers.
- And amongst these numbers were AU1772.
- And out I went.
- And this was in Terezín?
- It was in Terezín.
- And the rest went on.
- The rest went on.
- So no-- and my life is really saved by Gideon.
- That means that he would have known.
- First, he knew you were coming.
- And--
- Yeah, do you know?
- --so now, he would have known you're going.
- Yeah, because he were aufbaukommando.
- You know, he had the chances.
- And he knew the names of the list.
- He had the chance to get information, the right ones,
- or to have some immediately.
- And so I was really saved by Gideon.
- Let me ask you, too, just to back up a minute.
- When you knew him in Prague, was it
- only in the framework of both of you studying with Kurz?
- Or were you personally friendly with him also?
- No, and I honored him.
- I was shy.
- He was like a star to me.
- It's like me being a human being and he being a real comet.
- I didn't.
- I got very close to, near to him in Terezín.
- And we got friends in Terezín.
- And how did that start?
- I mean, so you arrived.
- So I arrived at and he took care of me.
- He really, he was like a brother.
- Had a family member here there, I had nobody, but I had Gideon.
- And he was great, really.
- So and he said to go to the Jugend--
- The Jugend Madchenheim.
- Oh, yeah, Madchenheim.
- And then I had to do with children there.
- And he arranged, really, more or less,
- my being there, a very convenient and comfortable one,
- I must say because I had with a nice girl a bed together.
- And then he, when we had to-- he didn't know, probably,
- about that.
- There was a horrible piano there and monster piano.
- And he repairated it, all the strings which were broken.
- And here he was as--
- he was a master of repairing glory, his mechanic work,
- all he did.
- You know about that, probably.
- And they brought it to the camp.
- Yeah, and then I had a chance to practice.
- And then he said, you do the watch, then,
- because we will make an evening for Beethoven sonatas.
- And you will play the watch then.
- And I did it.
- Did you have notes or it was from memory?
- I had notes.
- That you brought with you?
- No, never.
- You found some there?
- No, Gideon gave it to me.
- He was absolutely the leader.
- So I started working to [NON-ENGLISH]..
- And once-- and no, I must interrupt it
- because at the same time, meanwhile,
- Rafik Schachter started to do the [? proranka ?]
- for [NON-ENGLISH].
- OK.
- And now, I start with Rafael.
- Rafael, at this time--
- in the meantime, Rafi started making his [INAUDIBLE]..
- And I was singing.
- I was very--
- Rafael, remembered me somehow, Erna
- Grunfeldová because he was her friend.
- Rafi was her friend?
- Rafi was her friend, yeah.
- And he was--
- I feel always like a little fit brother.
- He was fat, a little roundy.
- And I mocked myself about him.
- And I liked him very much.
- And so when he started, of course, I was in the choir.
- And the husband was in the choir as well.
- I was in the alt-- now, it's funny.
- Did you--
- I was-- and then my husband was in the highest tenor.
- And it's funny, no?
- And once, I-- now, going back, as a Dachkammer,
- we practiced by march time.
- Because I had a date.
- We had a date where we had to have it.
- Gideon was very serious.
- He said, now, you work.
- And you have it.
- And there came blond, a chap.
- And said, are you Trude Reis?
- I said, yeah, Reisová.
- And I said, yeah.
- May I please listen to your practice?
- Of course, and if you don't talk, I don't mind.
- And then when I went next, our proby for the [? proranka ?]..
- And was this on the fixed-up piano in the attic?
- That was the fixed one.
- But then we had a proper in the [INAUDIBLE] with Rafael.
- And then he came to me.
- And they said, talking about music.
- And he said he's playing, he's a student.
- But he is playing organ.
- And I said, that must be marvelous.
- That must be the queen of all the--
- or the king of all the instruments
- because you can do so much.
- And you use your feet and so on.
- And so we got in touch.
- And Gideon taught me [GERMAN].
- But he was not happy about me.
- I think nobody would have been.
- I was most stupid for that.
- But this was private lessons?
- There in Terezín, you know.
- Yes.
- Yeah, he said, you should do something about.
- In this direction, he was really-- you know,
- he got the order of his master, of Kurz, to keep me--
- how to say that--
- yeah, to go on with me in working.
- So you had enough free time to do this
- besides what you had to do?
- Yeah, we did it the evenings, of course.
- I had evenings, evenings, at about 6:00,
- or 7:00, or 8 o'clock.
- Then I had once a week a lesson with him in harmony.
- But that was not too bad, but counterpoint, I hated.
- And he was amazed how stupid I could be.
- And once, he said--
- he called me [NON-ENGLISH].
- And he said me always you, in German Sie, or in Czech, you,
- as--
- not you, like friendly, you like Sie, you know, in German, you.
- Yes, sure, Du/Sie.
- Sie.
- Did you speak in German or Czech?
- Czech, always Czech.
- We spoke only Czech with Gideon.
- Always Czech, yeah, only [NON-ENGLISH] or Sie.
- [CZECH]-- now, I start Czech.
- Eliska told me once, I don't--
- he's only two persons, he says, he says Sie.
- It's her, his-- he had a girlfriend,
- a very nice girl, a blonde one, in Terezín, and me.
- The others, he says Du.
- The only two which I was a bit closer to him later.
- And once, he said, I told you, I don't
- know about this blond chap.
- I don't give my finger for him.
- But he'll be your partner, I think so.
- And he was right.
- And that was Gustav?
- That was Gustav, that's right.
- And he knew him, of course.
- And I made them know each--
- I introduced them.
- So did you have the concert?
- Yeah.
- Who else played?
- Gideon.
- What did he play?
- Which Beethoven?
- "Appassionata."
- He played the "Appassionata."
- And was it the third or just the two?
- Yeah, it was the third.
- And it was-- if I know the name, he was from Brno.
- He was older.
- Oh, Bernard Kaff.
- That's right.
- You help me.
- I say, I see.
- I see the person for wise.
- But I don't remember his name--
- Bernard Kaff.
- And he played--
- I don't know what.
- No, I don't really.
- I can't remember.
- But he was professor already.
- He was professor.
- And he was third one.
- We were three.
- And how was the audience?
- Oh, great.
- Yes?
- Yeah, great.
- Yes.
- All up in the attic.
- I know that attic.
- We've recorded for the BBC film in that attic.
- Yeah, it was great.
- And this professor was very busy.
- And had-- we were mocking him.
- We were laughing about him because he had a--
- do you say "stum"?
- Oh, a stump-- he had what's called a dumb keyboard.
- A dumb keyboard, yeah.
- Dumb keyboard.
- He had a dumb keyboard.
- And he was always practicing.
- And I said, what is he doing?
- It's no sense in it, I mean, if you don't listen what you do.
- He was so practicing always on this instrument,
- which had no voice.
- That was Robert Schumann wrote these house rules
- and maxims for young musicians.
- Yeah?
- And he said, practicing on a dumb keyboard is the same
- as having a person who cannot speak teach you to speak.
- Oh, that's right.
- I thought I didn't know.
- But I found it like that.
- And we were very laughing about him, even Gideon.
- Because he was always practicing this with his piece of work,
- dumb keyboard, as I said.
- Yes, I remember that.
- Oh, we were both musicians.
- As a matter of fact, I remember Krása
- because I liked "Brundibár" there very much.
- You heard "Brundibár?"
- Yeah, and I knew him.
- I knew him, of course.
- Did you know him from Prague?
- No, no.
- Only in Terezín.
- Only in Terezín.
- And when you say you knew him, you got to know him personally?
- No, of course.
- We met, all of us met.
- Of course, we did.
- And we had lots of discussions or so.
- But I was not friendly with him.
- I was very friendly with Gideon.
- I was very friendly with Rafael, but not with Krása.
- But I appreciate this is very much.
- I liked it so much.
- It's a sweet, it's really.
- How was he as a person?
- Strange.
- Strange?
- Yeah, strange, somehow strange.
- I don't know.
- I could get very warm with Rafael.
- And I could get--
- I wouldn't say warm with Gideon, but very intellectually warm.
- With Rafael, it was a feeling like a family member.
- With Gideon, it was more, it was always a little--
- like saying me always Sie, and [NON-ENGLISH],, not Trudy,
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- And it was always a cultural and intellectual contact.
- Yeah.
- And he was like--
- yeah.
- I had too much respect for him.
- I think I was--
- I felt a little girl with a--
- I tell you, with a comet.
- Because he was not only a pianist, which he was great,
- but he was so bright in mathematics, in everything.
- Everything, I just knocked and I talked to him.
- He knew so much that he was impressing me.
- And I was not even 19 years old.
- It's very easy to be to impressed, of course.
- He was not much older than I am, about four or five years.
- But he knew so much.
- And I felt so stupid.
- Did you hear him perform besides that?
- He gave several recitals.
- And he played chamber music with Pavel Kling, and Freddie Mark.
- Yes, of course, I was always present.
- Great kind of concert.
- Yeah, yeah, of course.
- And there was a good--
- if you would like to know about music,
- so it was a very good string quartet we had.
- Of Karel Frohlich?
- Yeah.
- Karel Frohlich and then Heinrich Taussig, Roman Zusman,
- and Freddy Mark.
- Freddy Mark.
- And Freddy Mark was the best of them, if you ask me.
- Really?
- Yeah.
- It was the best, absolutely the best of the four.
- He was the best.
- Do you remember the pieces on any program that they gave?
- No, I was always when they had their--
- how do you call [NON-ENGLISH]?
- A rehearsal?
- Not really, a program, a rehearsal.
- They always informed me.
- I was always present.
- Because they gave one program, which started with Gideon's
- Fantasy and Fugue for string quartet and then a Beethoven
- Opus 18.
- Yeah, that's right, the 18.
- Yeah, that's right.
- So you were at that concert?
- No, only to hear this.
- Yeah.
- So you probably heard the Fantasy And Fugue,
- which he wrote for them there.
- Ah, maybe.
- And if you didn't at the time, when you hear--
- That I'm glad.
- Thank you very much.
- --the recording, it will refresh your memory.
- That may be.
- Yes.
- It's a long time.
- It's a long time ago.
- And any chamber music when Gideon was the pianist, trios
- or piano quartets?
- Yeah, I heard it.
- Yeah, I heard it.
- Of course, only rehearsals.
- No, I heard one.
- Oh, no, I remember I heard one, one performance.
- I see it.
- I see it for me.
- I don't know where it was.
- I see it, how it happened, but I can't remember where it was.
- It's-- it was amazing.
- Yes, it was one rehearsal.
- And Karel Frohlich, I remember playing there.
- Do not know whether I to met with him.
- Does he live?
- Not anymore, but he did until the '70s.
- In the 1970s, he passed away.
- Oh, where did he play?
- Well, he continued his career.
- Where?
- I think in the States and Europe.
- He finished living in New York.
- Pavel Kling, I met two or three years ago
- because he's a friend of my daughter's family.
- Yes.
- Let me jump a minute just because we touched on it
- and go back to Hans Krása.
- You said he behaved sort of in a strange way.
- Did you hear, besides "Brundibár," any of his music?
- Oh, yes, because I once--
- he was keen to show me his works.
- And I was really interested, and he felt I'm interested.
- So I remember me--
- it's always, I see now, it's 50 years ago.
- And I see myself in the age of 18-19 sitting near Krása.
- It was some--
- I remember him so quiet, a bit little red-haired
- and a little too with strange because he was-- he was seen.
- And I would say, his face was a little like an U, a U,
- so this form.
- And he-- and you can't exactly say what was so funny in him.
- But he was a little funny.
- Little funny, even just his voice--
- because I'm a musician, I'm depending on voices.
- And I like the voices when they are relaxed and low [GERMAN]..
- Did he have a tense, higher voice?
- A little higher, yeah.
- And it was-- I can complete with his looking--
- it looked like in his voice was actually a unit, a unit for me.
- When he showed you these pieces, did he play it for you
- or just show you the score?
- No, he sang.
- He sang.
- Was it one of his string trios, maybe?
- No, yeah, maybe it was.
- But he had no instrument.
- And he showed it to me, the song and the dance, write it.
- And he showed me his notices.
- And he sang.
- And I always liked him very much when he--
- his music was gay, somehow, I find, gay.
- And in the time, was not gay.
- And I appreciated that very much.
- And I myself was a gay person, a very gay
- and a very [? riff ?] person.
- And I liked that on him.
- Now, here's something that would interest us very much.
- Did you attend, by chance, a recital with--
- what was his name--
- Walter Windholz--
- No.
- --and Rafi Schachter playing the piano.
- No.
- OK.
- No, no.
- Because they did lieder.
- And they did Ullmann's songs and Hans Krása's songs.
- So you wouldn't have heard that.
- No, no, yeah, no.
- You wouldn't have heard that.
- No.
- Maybe I was away already.
- When did you leave Terezín?
- No, if I knew that.
- The big musicians left in the last transports in October '44.
- I left earlier.
- You left before?
- I left before, yeah.
- So maybe that's the reason why I don't know these things.
- I left before.
- Yeah.
- It could be.
- It could be
- I left before.
- It could be.
- Did you have any contact or remember anything of Ullmann?
- I didn't even know him.
- You didn't know him?
- No.
- And you didn't hear any of his music?
- No, no.
- And what about Pavel Haas?
- I knew him, yeah.
- Yeah.
- Did you by chance--
- if you would have heard it-- it was in April '44, he did
- a recital--
- no, he didn't do the recital.
- It was Karel Berman and Rafi Schachter
- Oh, yes I know well.
- They did Beethoven, Dvorak, Smetana,
- and Pavel Haas's Chinese songs.
- Yeah, yeah.
- You heard that first concert?
- No, I didn't hear it.
- The concert, I didn't hear.
- But I heard them working, yeah.
- You heard them working.
- Because Rafael showed me.
- Ah, but only the start.
- Maybe I went away before this was.
- Could be.
- Could be.
- It could be the reason because Rafael would have told me.
- Yes, yes.
- And did you hear Edith Kraus performing?
- Of course.
- Yes?
- Yeah.
- Recitals and so?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- She was she was a active person.
- Yes.
- Yeah.
- Yes.
- She gave an all Bach concert.
- Yeah, yeah, very much.
- Yeah.
- And [INAUDIBLE],, I remember, as well.
- I think so.
- And she played Mozart.
- To whom do I owe the piece of bread?
- Edith.
- Oh, that's great.
- That's a history of my life.
- I will-- I'll tell it to everyone.
- You see--
- I don't remember.
- She really did write it, the concert for me?
- I didn't know it.
- if she tells it, it will be true.
- Sure.
- And Edith is very--
- she's very modest.
- And sometimes, you have to really prod
- her to get information.
- For example, for a long time, I knew
- that she gave the premiere at Ullmann's request,
- of the sixth sonata.
- But I didn't know.
- I said Edith, one day, what was the program?
- She said, oh, a recital.
- Silence.
- Said, what did you play?
- Well, I opened with Kreisleriana Schumann.
- Then I played Ullmann number six.
- And then I played the Brahms F minor sonata.
- Did you by chance hear that program?
- No, sorry.
- No, no, no.
- No.
- Maybe I was away.
- Yes, yes.
- No, I'm sure I was already away, which I'm
- sorry because I missed a lot.
- Yeah.
- What were your feelings being in this camp,
- having Gideon to look after you a bit,
- becoming friends with Rafi Schachter and so on,
- but not having family, and knowing
- what the conditions were, and certainly
- suffering a bit-- or a lot, as everybody did,
- and having a fear of what's really coming?
- We don't know.
- And transports are going on.
- Not at all, I must say.
- Did you feel it?
- No, I must have been absolutely idiotically stupid because I
- really was an optimist.
- And I was a--
- I had some instinct I will survive.
- And I didn't bother.
- I really did not bother.
- I tell you, if my child asks me, Mommy, why don't you
- tell about the concentration camp,
- I say always, I don't know what I should tell you.
- I can only since I'm an adult tell you the things
- I have the responsibility.
- I pay for it.
- And I am very careful because I have the responsibility.
- But there's one thing, I always feel like a bird.
- You can shoot a bird.
- It has no responsibility.
- And I felt the whole time easy because I
- had just no responsibility.
- The other ones who hurt me had the responsibility.
- And they had to suffer for it, but not I. That is my freedom.
- And that is why I don't suffer about all.
- And I had a bad time in the concentration camp.
- I don't talk about it.
- It's like having a pneumonia or a very hard grip or something,
- and flu.
- But you said, you did have a bad time?
- A very bad time.
- If you ask me, I can tell you.
- But it was a very bad time.
- I tell you, it was really a bad time.
- But I can't-- it's like having a bad flu with-- or something,
- and you have a high fever.
- But it gets over and you don't remember it.
- Do you remember a very bad flu or a pneumonia
- where you had 40 degrees and you were suffering?
- Not really.
- And that's the same with my whole time.
- But was your music, your music-making,
- your music-hearing, was this something so dominant
- that somehow, it compensated for the very bad time
- that you also had?
- Yeah.
- I could always believe in musics here.
- I could even listen to musics if I had none.
- I could really, if I wish, I could today.
- I sit down and I hear some concert which is in my brain
- or in my memory.
- But not even that.
- I think it's a naivete which kept me free from all.
- I am somehow--
- I stay till my death a child--
- not childish, but a child.
- You can't harm a child, really.
- It can be unhappy.
- But it won't suffer for long.
- It will weep.
- And that's my way how I survived.
- Did you hear any of the big performances?
- Did you hear the Verdi Requiem?
- Did you hear any operas?
- Of course I-- did you hear?
- So you heard Verdi?
- Of course.
- [VOCALIZING]
- I start to.
- That must have been tremendously exciting.
- Oh, it was absolutely high spot.
- See, Verdi was absolutely the high spot
- in my music life in Terezín.
- It was the high spot.
- And was Gideon playing the piano, the orchestra part
- of the piano?
- Yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, that must have been.
- No, it was Rafael.
- No, it was Rafael.
- He conducted?
- He conducted.
- And then yes, Gideon, yeah.
- And he played in the rehearsals.
- He played as well.
- Yeah.
- But it's a concert Gideon played, yeah.
- It was-- the choir was, I would say, professional.
- And Berman was singing.
- His voice was not strong enough.
- But he was very clear.
- But this girl, the blonde, what was her name?
- [PESONAL NAME]?
- Yeah.
- She was so good, it's a great thing.
- She was so good.
- She was the alto or the mezzo?
- Yeah.
- Yes.
- Who was the soprano?
- I don't remember who without looking.
- Who else is on there?
- Ada Schwartz?
- Yeah.
- Ada Schwartz played.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Richtig, yeah.
- You remember the name, I remember the faces.
- You know, I see the person singing.
- And the tenor was David Grunfeld.
- [GERMAN], yeah.
- Tell me anything you remember of Grunfeld.
- Not much.
- I don't know him.
- Don't know him.
- Did you have any contact--
- two musicians that I'd be very interested.
- One was a young boy, maybe 17 years old, named Robert Dauber.
- He was a cellist and a pianist.
- And he played cello in the quartet part of "Brundibár."
- No, sorry.
- Have I seen him?
- I don't know how he looks.
- And the other one was Zikmund Schul.
- No, neither.
- No?
- No.
- Neither of them.
- No, neither one.
- Tell me, did you hear any of the light music?
- Did you hear the Ghetto Swingers jazz band
- playing in the Stadtkapelle?
- Absolutely not.
- Not light music?
- No I didn't.
- I was not interested.
- So you wouldn't have heard cabaret of Karl Schwenk.
- Oh, Karl Schwenk was a very good, a close--
- I know that Karl Schwenk.
- Oh, Karl Schwenk was in love with me.
- So it's very--
- Oh, please, tell.
- I'll tell you why afterwards.
- But tell everything that you can remember of Karl Schwenk.
- I can't because it hurts me.
- My heart is bleeding.
- It's so hard.
- Karl Schwenk was such a nice chap, so sweet.
- And I felt so sorry for him because he was in love with me.
- And I could really not feel his feelings.
- But I liked him so much.
- And I feel guilty, somehow, because he was--
- How did you meet?
- What brought you together?
- I mean you were in a different world of music than he was.
- He was in theater and cabaret.
- Yeah, of course, but he--
- I was really interesting him.
- So here, he just asked me.
- And he just started talking to me.
- And he asked me if I could not go comment and have
- a look at his things.
- And I had.
- He really was looking for me.
- So that's the way how we got in touch,
- a young man and a young girl.
- But unfortunately, he was not my type.
- I had Gustav already.
- Yes, of course.
- So did you hear?
- Yeah, of course.
- You heard some cabarets?
- Yeah, of course.
- Schwenk was a friend of mine.
- But he's not a musician.
- You asked me about musicians.
- No, well, but he's--
- I'm not only interested just in musicians.
- But Schwenk was a good friend of mine.
- And he made these cabaret songs.
- Yeah, he made so.
- And he was such a clever person, somehow clever.
- Very clever, really.
- And we had chatters about--
- we could sit-- he always found a place.
- I see myself.
- I can't tell you where it was.
- I see myself on a bank, in a shadow, and talking together,
- and because he was seeking for my presence, you know.
- Was it up on the-- how do you call it these ramparts?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- You would go up above it?
- No, no, it was--
- no, not that.
- It was in the hidden room.
- No, the [NON-ENGLISH].
- No, no.
- That's where I went with my husband before [INAUDIBLE]..
- That's where.
- And then we had now a funny things with my husband.
- When we walked on the [PLACE NAME],,
- these green places, yes, there were three trees.
- One was beautiful.
- And we called him the Beethoven.
- One was lovely, and it was our Mozart.
- And we said.
- And we had-- all the trees had a name.
- It was so.
- We are always musicians.
- And we said, how must the world be if there are lots of trees?
- These three trees were the world for us, especially
- the Beethoven.
- Was a huge tree with many, many leaves.
- Oh, was beautiful.
- When did you marry your husband?
- It wasn't in Terezín.
- In Terezín.
- In Terezín?
- Yeah, the first marriage.
- But we also married again in Prague, of course.
- After the war?
- Yeah, after the war.
- We were second-- twice, we were twice.
- This is.
- And the marriage in Terezín, it was with a rabbi?
- It was Jewish marriage?
- No, we-- it was--
- we were registrated.
- Yes.
- That's all.
- You couldn't make more.
- And we got a huge present of cucumbers and tomatoes.
- And also, we had a bit of--
- Oh, a luxury.
- We had luxury.
- What luxury.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Who could even somehow find it to give you such things?
- Oh, yeah, they were working in the agriculture.
- They were a friend of ours, was working there
- in the agriculture--
- how do you call the district.
- And she brought us, this whole fruits and all the things,
- yeah.
- Yes.
- To go back for a moment to concerts,
- I suppose that you must have heard Alice Herz-Sommer play?
- Of course.
- Yes.
- I know her very well.
- Does she live still?
- In London.
- Does she live in London?
- Yes, yes, she does.
- Do you see her sometimes?
- When I'm in London, yeah.
- Can you please tell her to give her my-- can you do that--
- I will, I will.
- --and tell her my address?
- I'll give-- when I'm back, I'll make a note of it.
- I'll send you the address of Edith.
- I'll send you the address.
- Yeah, of Alice Herz-Sommer, I would--
- yeah.
- Also, sure.
- Sure.
- That would be very interesting.
- They would be delighted.
- That's very nice.
- Now, that was-- by the way, and I interviewed her.
- I spoke with her.
- I didn't really make an interview.
- She's Dutch.
- She lives near Amsterdam in a small town.
- I've forgotten her name.
- I can't remember it at the moment.
- You must have been gone by the time the visit of the Red Cross
- was in June '44.
- Yeah.
- And when they were filming the propaganda film.
- You must not have known about it.
- No.
- No.
- No.
- Where did you go from Terezín?
- First to Auschwitz.
- And I was not long in Auschwitz, how long--
- not long.
- So you went to a labor camp?
- Yeah.
- And I was delivered in Mauthausen.
- And with a bad, bad, bad TB because there
- was a Polish girl, beauty of a girl, typically Jewish beauty--
- black eye, black hair.
- And she had some tremendous red cheeks, the cheeks were red.
- And she was high fevered.
- And when she died, she had a [NON-ENGLISH]..
- How do you call it in English?
- Blood lungs.
- How do you call it?
- A rupture.
- Yeah, a ruptured blood.
- And when-- and I hold her in my arms.
- And then she was so thirsty.
- And I gave her water out of my S shoes.
- And I did not care.
- If somebody dies and wants water,
- you don't think about your S shoes.
- What is S shoes, your drinking cup?
- No, we had one thing where we had for tea, for soup.
- It's such like a soldier.
- And you put.
- Oh, I see.
- It's like a pot.
- Yeah, a pot.
- S shoes-- S shoes.
- In the propaganda film, I've seen one picture in particular,
- two ladies are going down the street near maybe
- the Magdeburg kaserne.
- And they're carrying these pots.
- These S shoes, S shoes, [GERMAN],, S shoes.
- [GERMAN]
- And as a matter of fact, when we went in the transport
- before they were delivering, before we came to Mauthausen,
- then we met our needs in this.
- And then we had our drinks of this, where we had that.
- And we were like--
- it was a lot for 30 kettles.
- And there were about 100 persons.
- And we couldn't really sit.
- We were standing like sardines.
- And you couldn't even move.
- And everyone-- it was a train.
- That's not important.
- Well, what do you remember of hearing Heda Grabova?
- She was a good voice.
- Yes?
- You heard some program?
- Yeah.
- Sure.
- Did you hear it-- you know, there
- were concerts of Jewish music.
- No, I haven't heard it.
- Local recitals of Jewish music.
- No, I have not heard it.
- All the music I had was always in connection,
- yeah, in connection with Gideon and Rafael.
- Now, maybe you heard because they were on it.
- There were four concerts produced
- by Viktor Ullmann for the Studio für die Neue Musik.
- No, I have not heard it.
- You didn't hear it.
- I had heard about it, but I have not heard it.
- And there was a song cycle by Gideon called "Die Best."
- I have so unfortunately not heard it.
- A pity, that's a pity.
- But you have not heard that?
- Pavel Kling played in that concert.
- He remembers it.
- I have not heard it.
- And that is the one main major--
- When was it, please?
- When was it?
- '44?
- I think it was-- no, no, it was before.
- Earlier?
- '43, perhaps.
- Oh, maybe I was--
- I was months ill with encephalitis in Terezín.
- It was two months, two months out of all, I was in a hospital
- there.
- I had encephalitis.
- It was one of the four cases which were, for two months,
- paralyzed.
- I could move.
- But I got out of it.
- You didn't hear any programs where he was a pianist,
- but he played accordion before there were very many pianos,
- Wolfi Lederer?
- The name, I know.
- He gave a recital with Karel Frohlich.
- Yeah, I know him.
- And they played Kreutzer sonatas accompanying on accordion.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- You heard it?
- Yeah.
- That must have been very strange.
- I didn't like it.
- I hated it.
- I can imagine.
- I think I heard it and Gideon did.
- And we said both said with a curse.
- We cursed, really.
- Yeah, I think that was not nice.
- No, I don't like it.
- Well, it was just out of desperation
- to do with whatever you have.
- And if you have something, you do it,
- even though it sounds bad.
- Maybe.
- But we are not tolerant enough.
- Since you had to do with, well, maybe with the children,
- there was the poet--
- she was a poet and other things.
- And she was in charge of the children's infirmary, Ilse
- Weber.
- She was a nurse.
- I know the name.
- And she accompanied herself sometimes
- on some of her own songs, which was--
- But she was a bit older than I am.
- Was she older?
- She would have been.
- Yeah, I know.
- I know.
- I know her, yeah.
- I remember a little.
- And she used to sing some of her songs--
- [GERMAN]
- Yeah.
- You might have heard her.
- Yeah.
- I suppose.
- I don't think she played at concerts.
- No, no.
- No, there was one, one poster in the Karl Herman collection
- actually has her on a program.
- Yeah?
- Or at least her songs.
- I don't remember.
- I don't know if she played or not.
- I don't think she played.
- But somebody sang her songs.
- That may be, yeah.
- Somebody sang her songs.
- You were in Mauthausen in the labor camp?
- Yeah.
- That was a mixed camp for women--
- women and men?
- It was only men.
- Only men.
- And in the desperation, we were hunted because the Germans
- were hunted from the Allied.
- So we arrived there.
- And there were women as well in the last time.
- There were all kind of people there.
- But then when we got out, we were
- absolutely sure because we looked more than horrible
- after two months is almost nothing having eaten
- or very little to drink.
- And the hygienic conditions were undescribable.
- So when we got out, we stunk.
- And it was horrible.
- So we were sure, we go just now, after knowing all,
- we go straight into the gas.
- And when we got out, the one German, the SS, an old one
- told to me, you are lucky.
- Since yesterday, the gas is not working anymore.
- OK.
- Oh, my.
- So close.
- You were really so close.
- Since yesterday, he told me or two days before.
- So they did not work.
- So who liberated that camp when you were
- there, Russians, Americans?
- This?
- That's now amazing.
- They all came?
- No, they-- no, that is amazing.
- They had an agreement that we should be--
- and they delivered from the American.
- So the Russian were first there.
- But they did not dare to deliver us
- because it was an arrangement.
- And that we should have been delivered by the Americans.
- It was all so funny.
- Yes.
- So they came, the Russian came.
- And I must say you, you are American.
- And I-- no, I was wrong.
- The American were first.
- The Russian came the next day.
- And we should have been delivered by the American.
- It was just a--
- [NON-ENGLISH], playing chess.
- And me speaking like now, you have
- heard it, a little English, so they asked,
- who has learned to speak German, Czech, and English?
- And I have been.
- So they said, you help interpreting.
- I said, I don't mind.
- And I must say you, these small, little soldiers
- were primitives of the American, very primitives.
- Young ones?
- The young ones, they told us.
- And they thought its where--
- how to say where?
- How in-- I don't know.
- I lose.
- Verdienst-- verdienst-- merit, merit, merit, I know.
- It's their merit that they are in this position.
- And the very high intellectual person
- which were in the Czech camp were just animals.
- But they look a little like animals.
- And it's primitive.
- And I was furious.
- And they were two days.
- And they gave me lots of clock watches and I don't know what.
- I didn't want it.
- I didn't.
- I really wanted to be rude to them.
- And I told them, you behave.
- You don't give me something.
- You behave to the people which which are educated,
- and you are just kettles against them.
- I told them.
- And so I lost my job.
- [LAUGHS]
- But to tell you the truth, it must be amazing for you
- because when they claim, the American, to deliver us,
- we had the biggest loss of lives through their unknowledges.
- They gave milk, normal milk, to people, which had not
- eaten I don't know long.
- And then they couldn't handle it?
- No, they died just like that, and so on, and so on.
- And they had a camera.
- And the Americans use their camera like today the Japanese.
- Anywhere was a camera.
- And they made snaps of these people which we are lying,
- and [INAUDIBLE] swollen stomachs, and so.
- And I was so furious.
- I was so furious, I could have stopped them
- and killed them at the moment.
- And then they came the Russians, who had suffered a lot.
- I don't care about a communisms or not.
- But they had suffered, the soldiers.
- And they did not have milk and all these conserves.
- But they had a heart.
- They had life.
- And they embraced, they embraced all these people,
- which were very dirty.
- And that, I liked it.
- Yes.
- There's a book that I just read by a lady.
- Now, she's called, I think, Helen Lewis.
- She lives in Belfast many years.
- She was Czech.
- And she was a dancer.
- And she was in Auschwitz and other camps.
- But also, she was in Terezín for a while.
- And she also was asked by Rafi Schachter
- to choreograph the dances in The Bartered Bride of Smetana.
- And she did an evening with Gideon, maybe with an actress
- also.
- And Gideon created the music for the piano, which he played,
- and for which she danced.
- Yeah.
- You don't remember?
- No, sorry.
- Because it was a very special program.
- I would have liked to.
- Was a very special program.
- I would have loved to see that.
- Yes.
- No, no, no.
- And I know a wonderful, wonderful lady
- in London, Zdenka Ehrlich today.
- She was Zdenka Fantlova.
- I know that name.
- You know Zdenka.
- She was--
- Yeah.
- --she was Vashti--
- Yeah.
- --when they did the play Esther.
- Yeah, I know her.
- And she became an actress in Terezín.
- Yeah.
- And she tells the story that in that same attic,
- with that same piano, they did a play of Moliere.
- I don't know that.
- And Gideon made the music.
- Oh.
- And they stayed late to put things away, and clean up,
- and so on.
- But he?
- Probably improvised.
- Improvised, yes.
- Yes.
- And she said, he said, sit down, I'll play you something.
- And he played her, I think, a Chopin etude
- and some Scriabin in that smoky, strange atmosphere over there.
- Yeah, yeah.
- So then you came back to Prague?
- Yeah.
- And meanwhile, I would have told you,
- you should have heard playing him.
- He was a really great pianist.
- He was really great pianist.
- He was not only musician, he was bright in his intellect.
- That Ullmann reviewed one of his concerts.
- Yeah.
- And he said, he represents the kind of-- oh,
- how did he call it--
- maybe something like the [GERMAN] kind--
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- --our younger generation of pianists.
- He was so thinking, yeah.
- And he had great praise.
- But he said, as much as he plays from the head,
- we hope also this generation and Gideon
- would begin also to add a little bit more from the heart.
- Did you feel it?
- Yeah.
- A few have said that wonderful pianism,
- wonderful intelligence, not quite as warm as maybe later
- it would have developed.
- See, if I told you about my relationship to Gideon,
- it's the same in the personality.
- Yes.
- I told you.
- Yes.
- I was-- with Rafael, I had the warmness.
- With Gideon, I had the brain, the intellect.
- It was absolutely different.
- So it fits--
- It fits.
- --this description of his performance.
- It is exactly what I had in my feelings.
- And when you came back to Prague,
- then you got back to music?
- You continued your music.
- Of course, I did.
- Yes.
- And because Kurz was not alive anymore,
- I had first to cure my TB, of course.
- Sure, right.
- I had an open TB.
- But then I studied with Ilona Kurz, which was--
- His wife.
- --no, his daughter.
- Ah, his daughter.
- Yeah, his daughter, Ilona Kurz Stepan and [? Pavel ?] Stepan.
- Was she related to Pavel Stepan the pianist?
- Pavel Stepan is the son of her.
- Ilona Kurz Stepan--
- And he was the first to play Gideon's sonata--
- Yeah, I'm sure.
- --in '46.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- He was the first, yeah.
- Yeah.
- Pavel Stepan is his son.
- Right.
- And he's still active?
- Yeah, he's still active, yeah.
- Still active with many, many recordings, and so on.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Well, thank you very, very much.
- You put out, I think, much more than you
- imagined that you would.
- This, well, I did.
- And you have very warm, and wonderful, and articulate,
- and elegant memories, which will be very appreciated
- by a lot of people.
- And I'm very grateful because I have not
- had these feelings and these memories since about 50 years.
- It's an age.
- And a lot of people who, somehow,
- were approached much later have had the same experience.
- Yeah?
- It's wonderful.
- But it's very precious.
- Thanks.
- Thank you.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Gertrude Solarova
- Date
-
interview:
1994 October 12
- Geography
-
creation:
Switzerland
- Credit Line
- United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
2 sound cassettes.
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Solarova, Gertrude.
Administrative Notes
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- Emilie Berendsen Bloch, Benjamin Bloch, and Ariel Bloch donated the archive of Professor David Bloch to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in 2012.
- Funding Note
- The cataloging of this oral history interview has been supported by a grant from the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 09:37:24
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn558991
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Also in Professor David Bloch collection
Archive of Professor David Bloch, musicologist, founder and director of the Terezin Music Memorial Project, and Israeli institute devoted to the documentation and study of music and music making at the Theresienstadt concentration camp in the former Czechoslovakia and at other localities under German occupation during the Second World War.
Cigarette case
Object
Oral history interview with Ulrich E. Simon
Oral History
Oral history interview with Alexander Singer
Oral History
Oral history interview with Elsa Deutsch
Oral History
Oral history interview with Pavel Fuchs
Oral History
Oral history interview with Willi Groag
Oral History
Oral history interview with George Hartman
Oral History
Oral history interview with Tomas Lenda
Oral History
Oral history interview with Martin Roman
Oral History
Oral history interview with Margit Silberfeld
Oral History
Oral history interview with Georg Steiner
Oral History
Oral history interview with Max Dauber
Oral History
Oral history interview with Paul Kling
Oral History
Oral history interview with Avivva Bar-on
Oral History
Oral history interview with Tomas Mandel
Oral History
Oral history interview with Yosef Klein
Oral History
Oral history interview with Shoshana Heyd
Oral History
Oral history interview with Arieh Zemer
Oral History
Oral history interview with Michael Flack
Oral History
Oral history interview with Manka Alterova
Oral History
Oral history interview with Tomi Spencer
Oral History
Oral history interview with Ruth Elias
Oral History
Oral history interview with Robert Kolban
Oral History
Oral history interview with Uri Bas and Kobi Luria
Oral History
Uri Bas discusses his musical family; the beginning of the war; being sent to the Terezin ghetto on one of the first transports when he was 13 years old; playing the violin and even continuing music lessons in the ghetto, especially harmony; hearing the music in Terezin played in different venues; a song that stayed with him over the years which is a ballad about a pirate [he sings some of it in Czech and reads his translation in Hebrew]; the music in evenings in the ghetto beginning at the end of 1942 to 1943 and which was dedicated to performances and musical entertainment, including cabaret evenings; and being sent to Auschwitz in the fall of 1944, when he was 16 years old.