- 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go ahead.
- OK.
- Would you please identify yourself and tell us
- a little bit about your background?
- Well, my name is Martin Donald, formerly Dorffman.
- And when you say identify myself about the background,
- where should I start?
- When were you born?
- I was born May 2nd, 1920 in Berlin, Germany.
- And would you tell us something about your family,
- your immediate family?
- My father's name was Robert Dorffman, my mother's name,
- Frieda Dorffman.
- Her maiden name was Gutterman.
- I had a sister by the name of Erna Dorffman.
- We lived in Germany.
- I was born, as I mentioned before, in Berlin.
- And had lots of other family, close family,
- such as cousins, uncles, nephew, nieces, all kinds of family
- there.
- We were approximately a family of 30 people, living in Berlin.
- Furthermore, we had at least another 15 to 20 relatives
- on my father and mother's side, especially on my father's side,
- living in Leipzig, Germany.
- And most of them in Leipzig were in the fur industry.
- Because Leipzig was the fur industry,
- the fur business of Germany.
- What did your family do in Berlin?
- My father and mother were in the clothing business.
- And we had quite a substantial business in the early '30s.
- Of course, later on everything was
- changed because the Hitler regime
- went after Jewish merchants and so forth.
- And it became increasingly difficult.
- What is your first memory of Hitler
- and of the rise of Nazism in Germany?
- Well, I am still aware today that Hitler came to power
- in January of 1933 in Germany.
- And I cannot exactly recall how it shaped up in '33 or '34.
- But as time went on, of course, it
- became increasingly difficult.
- How so?
- By, number one, the concentration camps
- were opened up for Jewish people and even for non-Jewish people.
- If I recall correctly, until about 1937
- you could still live without being attacked or followed.
- But I do remember that in November of '37
- a purge took place.
- And the Germans looted and rioted and went
- into businesses, synagogues, after Jewish households.
- And it was a absolute miracle that we survived at that time.
- How did your parents explain to you
- what was going on at the time?
- Unfortunately, my parents were always of the opinion,
- if I remember correctly, that things would change,
- that it would be a passing trend,
- and it would not go on forever, and it would go back to normal
- again.
- I couldn't argue very much at the time with them.
- Also, I saw it differently because I
- was young and inexperienced.
- So there was a part of you that knew that it wasn't just going
- to go away?
- I had the feeling that it wouldn't.
- And so did my sister.
- And my parents, like I mentioned before,
- were of different opinion, unfortunately.
- And we were hoping against odds maybe that they were right
- and we were wrong.
- How did the other members of your family feel?
- When it came to the so-called older people-- and by old,
- I don't mean real old, real old.
- But I do mean not the younger people.
- They felt the same way as my parents did.
- They were hoping also and thinking that it has to come
- to a point where this cannot go on any further.
- And unfortunately, instead of getting better, of course,
- over the years it went much worse.
- What kind of experiences did you have at school?
- I left school when I was approximately 14 years old.
- My father always wanted me to learn the fur business.
- Because he felt that number one, he
- felt that a trade would always be good
- no matter where I would be.
- And number two, it was some sort of a family business
- because brothers and sisters of his and close relatives,
- they all were in Leipzig in the fur business.
- And I guess in the back of his mind
- he was maybe hoping that one day I
- would also go there and work with them
- and be part of their business.
- So I started in 1934.
- I looked for some work in Berlin.
- And I found a furrier that had a retail store in a section
- called Nurnberger Strasse.
- And he was of Polish descent but had lived
- in Germany for quite some time.
- And as a matter of fact, just before I went with him,
- he married a non-Jewish German lady
- that turned out to be a wonderful person and in the end
- saved his life and made it possible
- for him to escape Germany.
- And I stayed with this concern.
- And he really taught me a lot of things about the fur business
- until 1937.
- He was Jewish?
- He was Jewish himself.
- And he had two brothers that were Jewish and also
- in the fur business.
- And they also had retail stores in Berlin.
- By the end of 1937, my father felt
- that I should learn more about the raw skin business instead
- of knowing how to cut a fur coat.
- And I went with another firm to learn more about raw skins.
- At that time, of course, we had already tremendous difficulties
- to survive in Berlin.
- From time to time, raids took place by the police.
- They at random came to apartments
- where Jewish people lived.
- And, of course, without any provocation or explanation,
- arrested Jewish people only to be sent to concentration camps,
- and so forth.
- I had several experiences where my father and I
- were informed by some German people
- that we might be the next on the list, and so forth.
- And we kept on running to a few different places in Berlin
- at the time, hiding, coming out, going back again.
- And it was very, very difficult.
- Meanwhile, also, my father couldn't continue
- being in business anymore.
- It was very difficult for us to exist.
- And unfortunately, we had let it go
- by over the years without my parents
- and other members of the family trying to get out of Germany.
- To retract, I meant to say that they were still
- thinking, in the early stages, that some changes will
- take place.
- And that, of course, never happened.
- We had some relatives on my father's side
- at the time living in London, England.
- And my father--
- I can't recall exactly--
- either spoke with them on the telephone
- or we were in correspondence, of course.
- And in 1938, they informed us that they
- would try their best to get us over to London,
- my sister and me only--
- they couldn't do nothing for my parents--
- to try and continue to learn the fur business.
- I also had, at the time, a cousin, a close cousin of mine,
- and a girl cousin.
- Because in our family actually, in Berlin, two brothers
- married two sisters.
- And each brother and sister had a boy and a girl.
- My sister's name, I do not recall whether I mentioned it,
- was Erna.
- And my cousin's name was Leon Dorffman.
- And his sister's name was Ruth Dorffman.
- In January of '39, out of the blue sky,
- we were called, if I remember correctly,
- to some sort of authority.
- And I was told that I had permission
- to go to London, England to further my knowledge of the fur
- business.
- And my cousin and his sister, their papers came through, too.
- Somehow my sister Erna's paper were mislaid or lost
- in the shuffle.
- She never got permission to leave Germany
- and eventually ended up to be killed in a concentration camp.
- In January of '39, I remember like today,
- when I was in a position to leave Berlin,
- having been such a close family, it
- was a terrible thing for my parents to see me go
- and for me to go without my parents.
- My mother came to the train station in Berlin.
- And as the train pulled in, I will never forget,
- she had tears in her eyes.
- And she said to me, Martin, my dear,
- I have a feeling I will never see you again in our lifetime.
- And unfortunately, it was so.
- I came together with my cousin, Leon Dorffman, to London.
- His sister came about three weeks later.
- We arrived in London.
- And as you know, London always has fog and rain.
- We arrived at Victoria station with maybe less than $10
- in our pockets.
- We were given to understand by our parents
- that we had a wonderful family in London
- and they would help us when we get there.
- We did not speak any English.
- Downhearted as we were, we went to the telephone
- to call our relatives, who at that time
- lived in Golders Green, only to be
- told by the maid of the house that they could not
- be disturbed this evening.
- And we were given to understand that there
- is a lot of Jewish relief organizations
- that help people that come from Germany or other countries.
- But the agencies would not open before Monday morning.
- So in the meantime, we should go and look
- whether we can get in for a couple of days,
- until the agencies open up, whether we can get in
- to the Salvation Army.
- Still today when I see my cousins in England,
- we talk about this incident.
- And I don't have to tell you the way we felt, having just come
- from home, and looking for a close, warm relationship
- with relatives in London, the way
- we felt of what happened to us the first day on arrival
- in London, England.
- We did find shelter for the couple of days.
- And on Monday morning went to the Woburn House
- in London, where we registered and where I also
- knew that someone wanted to give me the chance
- to further my knowledge in the trade
- that I had learned in Germany.
- Also my cousin that would have liked to stay in London with me
- had to go on to Glasgow, because people had given him
- papers in Glasgow, Scotland to stay and help him
- to get on his feet.
- I found some people that took me in as a boarder in London.
- I started to work for this particular company, again
- as an apprentice with very, very little money.
- And my most important goal was to learn the English language
- so I'd be able to communicate with the English people
- and get the know-how and learn and see what it is all about.
- My cousin Leon Dorffman, who still lives in London today,
- went on to Glasgow where we had some very poor relatives that
- actually even couldn't afford to support him
- for a short period of time.
- But they were so nice to him and did so much for him
- that until the day they died, he was forever grateful to them.
- Having seen what kind of a family we had in London
- when they treated us on our arrival the way
- we never expected they would, I kept completely out of touch
- with them.
- I wasn't interested and in any way proud
- to call people like this my family.
- I wasn't used to it.
- We were a very, very close family, always.
- As I mentioned, I started to work.
- Things were very tough in the beginning.
- But somehow, one survives, especially when you're young.
- I tried my utmost, through a number of Jewish relief
- organizations in London, to see whether there
- is any possibility of getting my parents out of Germany.
- I knew with my sister it would only
- be a month or two because I was hoping the papers were just
- mislaid, and she had permission to come,
- and they would find the papers and she ultimately
- be in a position to come and join me in London.
- Unfortunately, this never took place.
- I did everything possible to get them out of Berlin,
- of course not knowing how long it would be
- or whether a war would take place.
- But as you well know, in September of 1939,
- war broke out between England and Germany.
- And every hope that I ever had to get my family out
- in these 6 or 8 months that I had arrived earlier
- in London, every hope was gone.
- There was nothing I could do anymore.
- What did they tell you when you tried to get them out,
- when you went to the relief organization?
- What did they say?
- They had tremendous lists of people to bring out,
- on their list, even.
- So they couldn't do much.
- It became increasingly more difficult,
- coming closer to '39, to leave Germany.
- I also mentioned to them that I had some very influential
- people that were my relatives, by the name of the Sachs
- family.
- And to my knowledge, I believe they got in touch with them
- once or twice.
- But I was then given to understand
- that this would be a lost cause for them
- because they're just not willing to help.
- Because according to them, they helped so many other people.
- And they just had come to the end of the line
- and couldn't help anybody else anymore.
- Even so, the Mr. Sachs was a brother of my father's father.
- And my father knew him very well.
- This is the family in London?
- This was the family in London.
- That wouldn't take you in when you first got there?
- The same family, yes.
- OK.
- And I had made quite a few friends.
- And of course, I was forever grateful that I was over there.
- Because had I been in Germany, it
- would have been a different story.
- So I was always talking about one day
- joining the army, and the British army,
- and get an opportunity in my own way,
- hopefully, to fight against the Germans.
- Unfortunately, in the beginning of the war
- it looked for quite a while that Germany
- would be in a position with their fifth column and air
- support to invade England.
- And the country, for quite a while
- in the early stages of the war, was
- in a tremendous uproar and afraid
- that this might happen any minute.
- I lived at that time together with a friend
- in order to share the expenses for the room
- that we had rented from someone.
- One morning, we both go downstairs to go--
- we lived in Stamford Hill, which was area where quite
- a few Jewish families lived.
- We are on our way down to go to work as usual
- and take the bus into the city.
- And right in front of the door of the house where we
- rented a room is a police van.
- And the policeman comes out.
- And he says Martin Dorffman, my friend's name at the time
- was Henry Brooks, we have to take you in for questioning.
- Don't worry, the officer even said.
- I remember that.
- You'll be back.
- It's just routine information that we need from you.
- Little did I know at that time that because of the fear
- that spread all over England at the time,
- that they didn't care whether as a German
- you were a Jewish, non-Jewish, or whatever.
- They took you in.
- They send you to a camp.
- And they wanted to make sure that you are not
- a fifth column for the Germans, and that everything is all
- right with you, and the information
- that you gave them earlier are correct.
- And they were so afraid at the time
- that they couldn't do it in a way of getting to the people
- by not taking them into the camp.
- They picked them up all over London, Scotland.
- Wherever a German Jew would live,
- he was taken in to be interrogated
- and eventually, hopefully, cleared.
- So they wanted to make sure that nothing could go wrong.
- The situation became very bad because it really
- looked like Hitler would be successful in invading England.
- And they took several ships of German non-Jews and Jews.
- And took the people, instead of looking
- into their history in England, they took them to Canada.
- They had permission to take them into camps in Canada.
- I recall we were put on a ship in Liverpool, England.
- And that ship was full of German of prisoner of wars.
- And we were mixed on the same boat with them
- as Jewish-German refugees, which was a terrible, terrible thing.
- On the way over to Canada, we were very fortunate.
- Because one or two of the boats were
- torpedoed by the German navy.
- And hundreds of people lost their lives.
- Our ship was fortunate.
- We made it into Canada.
- But tremendous incidents took place on the boat.
- Because I would say we were, maybe,
- 150 Jewish people on the boat.
- And there must have been prisoners of war
- that were taken by the English, I would say, about 800.
- Terrible fights broke out on the boat
- because we did not want to have anything to do with them.
- When we finally reached Canada, we
- were put in the same camp with them.
- And we went on a hunger strike.
- And we refused to eat.
- And we wanted to identify ourselves 100%
- that we are Jewish people and we run away from Nazi Germany.
- And here they are putting us together, again,
- with German prisoner of wars.
- I recall that they were the most arrogant German people
- that I've ever met.
- They used to march every morning in the camp,
- and sing their songs, and so forth,
- being convinced that it would only be a short period of time
- they would be liberated and Hitler is on the way
- to conquer the world.
- Due to the strength that we had within the little group
- of about 130, 150 Jewish people, Jewish men,
- we were in a position to make ourselves
- known to the authorities that were in charge of the camp.
- And within 90 days, our cases were cleared.
- And we were sent back to London, England with an apology
- that what has happened was very unfair to us,
- but could not be avoided.
- And we were set free to go about our own business.
- Was it the hunger strike that really attracted
- the attention of the--
- I think what attracted the attention of the authorities
- was that a lot of times we had incidents of fights.
- We had incidents that we refused to have anything
- to do with them.
- We kept to ourselves.
- We only wanted to see the people that are in charge
- and explain and plead our cases with them.
- And explain and show them how wrong
- they were, what was done to us.
- Where was the camp in Canada?
- Do you remember?
- Ontario, Canada.
- Having gone back to London then, finally,
- after approximately 90 days, it could
- have been a little less than 90 days, I really
- tried to understand in my own mind what has taken place
- so unexpectedly.
- And I didn't want to judge harshly their behavior
- in what they had done to us.
- And I came to the conclusion that there
- was room for forgiveness.
- Because like I mentioned earlier before,
- that it was a terrible situation in the early months of the war
- between England and Germany.
- Because everybody was so afraid that invasion of England
- was imminent.
- After I was finally able to deal with the situation,
- after I came back to London, I started
- to work again for a few months.
- But I became very restless, always wondering and worrying
- what could happen, or has happened,
- to my family in Germany.
- I had some other friends.
- A couple did join the army at the time.
- Another couple did not.
- They weren't quite ready.
- Also, in the later years, it became compulsory
- that they had to join.
- In late 1940, I guess I came to a point
- where I said, well, I should now also participate in this war.
- Not working in a war factory, but just going to war
- and see what I could do.
- I went to the offices where the recruiting took place.
- And I offered my services and was
- told it will take a couple of weeks or so
- and I will hear from them, which I did.
- And I believe it was towards the end of 1940
- or the very early part of 1941 that I was informed
- that my services have been accepted
- and that I should report to a training center.
- I believe it was at the time in Ilfracombe, if I'm correct.
- I think it was Ilfracombe, which was about eight hours by train
- out of London.
- I stayed in the training center for quite a while,
- did service all over England.
- After I came out of the training center, I was in the artillery.
- And in my opinion, coming back occasionally to London, England
- on furlough, I had to give the utmost credit
- to the English people to go through what they went through
- during the German air raids over London
- and other parts of the country.
- Every night, for a long period of time,
- the bombers used to come and do tremendous damage to London
- and many other places.
- I'm trying to remember some dates now.
- Apparently 18 months or so before the invasion
- took place of Normandy, I was approached
- by some people in the military to come in for an interview.
- It turned out to be with reference
- of joining the intelligence corps,
- being transferred for reasons of my knowledge of German,
- which turned out to be a tremendous asset eventually.
- And I was asked whether I am interested, in case
- I will be sent to the continent, whether I
- would like to change my name prior to going over there.
- Because there was this tremendous danger
- that I could be captured by the German army.
- And my name being a typical German name,
- by the name of Dorffman, could do me some harm
- if I get captured by them.
- I was also informed that if everything being well
- and I get back, that I could always
- take back my name of Dorffman.
- And in the meantime, I can choose any name I wanted.
- I do not remember today what gave me
- the idea of changing my name to Donald.
- Because I had a lot of problems with the name of Donald
- because my first name is Martin.
- And I choose my surname as Donald.
- And many a times people reverse my name to Donald Martin
- instead of Martin Donald.
- To jump the gun a little bit, when I came out of the army,
- I could have changed my name back.
- For one reason or another, I didn't do it.
- I am actually sorry I didn't do it,
- because that is my real name, Martin Donald.
- And I should have changed my name back to Dorffman.
- My cousin also was in the army in the later years, Leon
- Dorffman, that I referred to before.
- He did change his name back to Dorffman.
- I didn't do it.
- But I'm afraid it's a little bit too late now.
- [LAUGHS]
- We were trained with reference to eventually invasion
- of the continent and which then took place in 1944.
- And I was attached to a regiment with intelligence.
- And we ended up at the beaches of Normandy.
- I really do not like to talk that much about it.
- Because unfortunately, we were together
- with a Canadian division which was almost wiped out
- on the beaches of Normandy.
- And terrible, terrible casualties took place.
- But in the long run, we succeeded.
- We worked our way inland.
- I went through France, eventually through Brussels,
- into Germany.
- And one day we found ourselves just outside Hamburg, Germany,
- ready to fight to take over the city.
- We were fortunate.
- The mayor of Hamburg at that time,
- against the instructions of Adolf Hitler,
- surrendered the city.
- He saw, apparently, the handwriting on the wall.
- And even so, he was, what we later found out,
- instructed by the German high command
- to fight to the last wall of the city.
- He did not do it.
- And he gave up.
- And consequently, we were able to go in there
- and take the city without too much loss of life.
- Of course, the city had been bombed
- prior to that for months, like so many other cities
- in Germany.
- And it was a tremendous sight to see
- how much damage was done there.
- I have a question that may jostle you up
- as far as keeping track of time is concerned.
- And I hope that doesn't happen.
- But the last we heard about your family in Berlin
- was when you said goodbye to them at the train station.
- What, if any, communication did you
- have with them before you joined the English army?
- What did you know about what was happening to them?
- I had communications from them in the form of some letters,
- that I kept on sending them letters
- and they kept on sending me letters.
- Many of the letters never arrived.
- But I actually had contact with them
- until the war broke out with England.
- They couldn't write much.
- And they didn't have to write me much because I knew
- how much suffering they must have been going through,
- or gone through.
- I couldn't help the situation.
- I knew the war was on and there was
- nothing I could now do anymore.
- I was only hoping, and that went through my mind
- all the time, that by a miracle maybe they would survive,
- or they would be able to hide, and I
- would see them after the war again if I survived myself.
- We then came into Hamburg.
- And after a month or six weeks, I
- was attached with a section of the intelligence corps
- to a war crime commission, discovering war crimes
- in Hamburg and making arrests.
- The first thing I had in my mind was
- how can I get to Berlin after the war
- and see what has actually happened
- to the many members of my family, especially
- my parents and sister.
- I had a very understanding commanding officer.
- It was a brigadier general.
- And he was very dear to me.
- And for some reason, he understood my situation more
- than anybody else.
- In private life, he was an attorney in Leeds, England.
- And he had a wonderful heart.
- And he made it possible for me within about 60 days--
- now it could have been a little more, just when
- the war was finished--
- to get permission from the British for me to go to Berlin
- and see what actually happened to my family,
- if I can find it out, or if I can't.
- I do not forget that I finally was able to get to Berlin.
- The street that I lived on before I left Germany
- was the Kaiser Strasse 33 Alexanderplatz in Berlin.
- There was nothing there no more.
- The street was completely in ruins.
- I tried to get as close as I could.
- Because I knew exactly where the house was standing at the time,
- which was a small apartment house.
- And I got as far as the house was concerned.
- But everything was hanging in ruins
- and blocked off and barricaded, that nobody
- was allowed in because it was just too dangerous to get
- into the house.
- I made a lot of inquiries, whatever I could around it.
- I stayed in Berlin, I think at the time, three days.
- It was too early.
- I just could not find out exactly what
- had happened to my parents.
- I only knew one thing, that my parents and my sister
- were taken away from there in 1941
- and taken to a concentration camp.
- I came back to Hamburg.
- And as time went on a little bit,
- I had some connections in Berlin with some Jewish organization.
- And they looked high and low for my parents,
- what camp they could have ended up in, and my sister.
- And they could not come up with an answer.
- In the end, I believe, I was given
- to understand there was a possibility that they ended up
- in a concentration camp by the name of Theresienstadt.
- But it has never been proven out 100%.
- To go back to my time in Hamburg, which now the war was
- over, I had, of course, a tremendous hate and misgiving
- towards any kind of German that I would come across
- on the street in Germany, in Hamburg because
- of the terrible tragedy that had taken place where not only so
- many Jews lost their lives in concentration camps
- and were tortured, but I also had lost an entire family
- of maybe 50 people.
- And none of them were alive anymore,
- according to what I was able to establish.
- I was young at the time.
- Nothing frightened me.
- I was only looking for some sort of revenge in a small way.
- By serving for the crime commission,
- for the war crime commission, I had the opportunity
- to be in touch with a tremendous amount of people
- that, number one, I was looking for,
- or number two, that came into headquarters willingly
- only to be too happy to denounce some
- of their former Nazi friends.
- Just to mention how badly and strongly I
- felt towards the Germans, I could not
- control my temper in many ways.
- And at times when I made certain arrests,
- let my emotion run away with me.
- As time went on and I, again, try
- to recollect all my thoughts, I had to come to the conclusion,
- in order to keep my sanity, that I just have to simmer down.
- And I have to take the things the way
- they are because life goes on, either for better or for worse.
- I spent approximately 18 months in Hamburg, Germany,
- interrogating, arresting German war criminals and others.
- It was a very interesting and satisfying time for me.
- Because in my own small way, I could show them
- that they never accomplished what they intended
- to do in the first place.
- Just to mention one very interesting case,
- I was on duty one evening at headquarters.
- And a telephone call came through,
- which was eventually referred to me.
- And I was given an address in Hamburg
- where supposingly, the, at that time, German foreign minister
- von Ribbentrop was hiding out under a different name.
- I was given to understand that it
- would be impossible to recognize him,
- but that he is definitely the person.
- And we should interrogate him and we will find out
- that it is von Ribbentrop.
- In no time did we leave headquarters
- and were on our way to the place and address given to us.
- We broke down the doors of the apartment
- and found von Ribbentrop in bed.
- He didn't even deny that it was him.
- Of course, being of such high position as this man
- was at the time, we had to immediately inform
- the higher British authorities about our capture.
- And in no time was he taken away and eventually was
- tried at the Nuremberg trials in Nuremberg, Germany.
- Did you talk to him?
- I talked to him for approximately not even
- five minutes.
- But he more or less gave me to understand that number one,
- he doesn't want to talk, and number two, he
- does not deny his identity.
- So it wasn't a question of identifying him.
- It was just a question of arresting him and handing him
- over to the proper authorities for further interrogation,
- and so forth.
- I had a lot of interesting cases in Hamburg, Germany
- and felt very good that I was able in my own way
- to get this satisfaction and that God was good
- to me, that I was alive to take care of certain things
- that I didn't know how they would end up.
- Unfortunately, all my family was gone.
- Out of the close to 50 people, I did not even
- find a single relative that was still alive.
- Most of them, of course, had died or tortured to death
- in concentration camps.
- And if any one ever got to anywhere else,
- I have never been able to find out about it
- or identifying such person.
- I was in the army until late 1946,
- when I was offered, with my commanding officer,
- to be transferred to headquarters in Paris, France.
- The offer was very tempting.
- I was very fond of this gentleman who, in the meantime,
- became a full general and wanted to promote me also.
- And I had to make up my mind within two weeks
- either to move with him to Paris, France
- or to ask for my release from the army
- as I felt that my job was done.
- Taking everything into consideration and this part
- of my life, I spent about six years,
- close to six years in the army.
- I figured that if I want to go back into the civilian life
- and further whatever I intend to do,
- I have got to get an honorable discharge from the army
- and go back to London and see what I can do there.
- And that's exactly what I eventually did.
- I had been in touch with the general until he died in 1952.
- He was one of the finest gentlemen
- that ever anybody could meet.
- What was his name?
- His name was General Spence, Richard C. Spence.
- I came back to England.
- I was discharged.
- I started to work in the fur business.
- I was very fortunate to meet my wife.
- And eventually, on June 15th, 1947, we got married.
- Unfortunately, my father-in-law died in London.
- And his dream had always been to come to the United States.
- And his wife and, of course, my wife, which was his daughter,
- they did like the idea of at least being
- able to fulfill his dream and come to the United States.
- So in November of 1947, my wife and I first,
- we came to the United States and we've ever been ever since.
- Where was your wife's family from?
- I'm sorry?
- Where was your wife's family from?
- My wife's, on her side, they were all from Poland.
- But my wife was born in Berlin because some people came
- from Poland to America, some people
- went from Poland to Germany.
- And this family, part of the family went to Germany,
- and her parents lived in Germany when she was born.
- How did they wind up in England?
- They had some false papers that they
- were able to get for money.
- They had the right connections.
- And they were able in the last minute in 1939
- to get out of Germany and come to England.
- I have another question.
- During the time that you were on the continent,
- making your way towards Hamburg, did
- you receive any knowledge or information
- about the concentration camps?
- Or did you come across them as you were going east?
- The only camp that I saw, and that was after the war,
- was Bergen-Belsen.
- And I don't have to tell you what that must
- have looked like at that time.
- Did you see it soon after its liberation?
- Two months after its liberation.
- And what was still there?
- People were still dying at the time.
- They were so undernourished that they just
- couldn't be fed back to life.
- It was impossible, with all the medical help
- that was available to them then, unfortunately, it was too late.
- One of the things that you mentioned
- before was that throughout the war,
- or at the end of the war, one of the things
- that you really wanted the Germans to know loud and clear
- was that they hadn't accomplished what
- they had set out to accomplish.
- What do you think that was?
- What would you have liked to have
- been able to tell them at the end
- that they hadn't been able to do?
- Well, they intended to conquer the world.
- There's no doubt in my mind.
- That madman thought he could do everything.
- And in the beginning, it looked very prosperous for him.
- But very fortunate for us, it never happened.
- And you were living proof that that hadn't happened.
- Because you had survived it and, in effect,
- had really been a part of the process of stopping it,
- it seems.
- Absolutely.
- And I was very proud of it, that I
- was given the chance to do so.
- Yeah.
- How did you feel towards the people you grew up with,
- the Germans that you grew up with?
- I never saw anyone again.
- Really?
- Never.
- After I left Germany in early 1939, I never saw anyone again.
- The Germans and just a couple of people
- that were able to go to different countries
- at the time from Berlin, I was able-- especially a good school
- friend that I had in 1934.
- He was able, in the last minute, to get out to Belgium.
- And then eventually he made his way to America.
- And we were happy to see each other coincidentally again
- in New York.
- But with reference to any of the people that I grew up
- with or went to school with, grew up
- with would not be the right word because it
- was in the early days.
- And they started already at the time in 1933,
- actually, to slight towards the Jews.
- There is no question about it.
- So I didn't have many German friends that I associated with.
- But I never saw any one of these people again.
- He had some false papers that they
- were able to get for money.
- They had the right connections, and they were able,
- in the last minute, in 1939, to get out of Germany
- and come to England.
- I have another question, during the time
- that you were on the continent making
- your way towards Hamburg, did you
- receive any knowledge or information
- about the concentration camps?
- Or did you come across them, as you were going east?
- The only camp that I saw, and that
- was after the war, most Bergen-Belsen.
- And I don't have to tell you what that must
- have looked like at that time.
- Did you see it soon after its liberation?
- Two months after its liberation.
- And what was still there?
- People were still dying at the time.
- They just couldn't be--
- they were so undernourished that they just
- couldn't be fed back to life.
- It was impossible to--
- with all the medical help that was available to them,
- then, unfortunately, it was too late.
- One of the things that you mentioned before
- was that, throughout the war, or at the end of the war,
- one of the things that you really
- wanted the Germans to know, loud and clear,
- was that they hadn't accomplished what
- they had set out to accomplish.
- What do you think that was?
- What would you have liked to have
- been able to tell them at the end,
- that they hadn't been able to do?
- Well, they intended to conquer the world.
- There's no doubt in my mind.
- That madman thought he could do everything.
- And in the beginning, it looked very prosperous for him.
- But very fortunate for us, it never happened.
- And you were living proof that that hadn't happened,
- because you had survived it.
- And in effect, had really been a part of the process
- of stopping it, it seems.
- Absolutely.
- And I was very proud of it, that I
- was given the chance to do so.
- How did you feel towards the people you grew up with?
- The Germans that you grew up with?
- I never saw anyone again, really, never.
- After I left Germany in early 1939, I never saw anyone again.
- The germans, and just a couple of people
- that were able to go to different countries
- at the time from Berlin, I was able, especially,
- a good school friend that I had in 1934,
- he was able, in the last minute, to get out to Belgium.
- And then, eventually, he made his way to America.
- And we were happy to see each other, coincidentally, again,
- in New York.
- But with reference to any of the people that I grew up
- with or went to school with--
- grew up with, would not be the right word,
- because it was in the early days.
- And they started already at the time in 1933,
- actually, to slight towards the Jews,
- there is no question about it.
- So I didn't have many German friends that I associated with.
- But I never saw any one of these people
- again after I left Germany in 1939.
- How do you feel about the Germans and Germany now?
- It depends on what age group you're looking into.
- If it is the age group which is slowly dying out,
- of the original Germany that started all the problem,
- I have no feeling towards them at all.
- The new age group, people that are in their 30s and 40s now,
- that have not either been born when the war started or were
- little children, I really cannot speak for them.
- I, personally, have very little feeling for Germany.
- And will have none until the end of my life.
- What is the effect of your war experience
- been on your relationship with your children?
- I have never talked very much about my life in Germany,
- or my war experiences with my children.
- I have always somehow shied away from it.
- If you would ask me why, it would be very difficult
- for me to answer and give you a good reason for it.
- I'm trying to catch up a little bit,
- and I hope it's not too late.
- What would you like the world to know about your experience,
- as someone who survived the war, and a Jew who survived the war?
- What I would like the world to know
- is that they should be on the alert, on guard,
- and remember what has happened to almost 11 million people,
- innocent people.
- And to watch, because if nobody is
- there to watch and pay attention to it, it can happen again.
- But if people are aware of the atrocities,
- and the terrible things that took place,
- and the millions of people that got tortured and killed,
- if the world is aware, it can never happen again.
- I guess we're-- if you have anything else you'd like
- to add.
- Otherwise, we'll go ahead and close off.
- No, it would mainly be--
- you're not interested about my life in the United States,
- which doesn't come in?
- He's not taking it now, is he?
- She's still taking it?
- Sure, I'd like to hear more about that,
- and the effects of your experience on your life now.
- You mean, in the United States?
- Sure.
- You mentioned you came to New York in 1947?
- Well, I came--
- I had some cousins.
- I had some cousins in the fur business in New York.
- And I came with my wife in 1947.
- We came on a boat called the SS America.
- At the time, to us, it was a tremendous luxury.
- The cabins were like toilets in the United States--
- very, very small.
- But to us, it was a fantastic experience,
- and a beautiful luxury.
- Took us seven days, because when we
- lived in England at the time, even,
- everything was still rationed in '45, '46, '47.
- You couldn't get the foods that you wanted to.
- And here, you come on a luxury liner
- like this, and eight meals a day, and just unbelievable.
- Unfortunately, my wife was expecting our daughter,
- Florence, at the time.
- And she didn't enjoy it, because she was almost sick every day.
- Because in November, in any given November of any year,
- the waters are very rough across the Atlantic.
- So she didn't feel too good.
- But we came here.
- We had some family here.
- Everybody was wonderful to us.
- We are still very close today.
- Unfortunately, a couple of members of our family
- have since passed away.
- I went into the fur business--
- first, I worked for a cousin of mine.
- Then eventually, opened up with another couple
- of partners together.
- Stayed in the fur business in New York until 1960.
- Then came to Dallas, Texas, and was also active in the fur
- business for another two years or so.
- My daughter, well, she might not like
- to hear that when she was born and her birthday, because
- of her age.
- Of her age?
- I mean--
- [LAUGHTER]
- No, our daughter was born in--
- was one of my greatest birthdays,
- birthday present anybody could ever get.
- She was born on my birthday, May 2nd, 1948.
- And our son Mark was born in September 8th, 1950.
- So we have a daughter and a son.
- And of course, I haven't said much about my wife,
- but she is about one of the greatest
- girls you can ever meet.
- She's a wonderful-- has always been a wonderful wife to me,
- a wonderful mother to her children.
- And wonderful daughter to her mother,
- and she's just a wonderful girl.
- And then, we came to Texas.
- And like I mentioned before, I was
- in the fur business for another two years, or so.
- At that time, the fur business was very, very tough here.
- I eventually left the fur business
- and went into manufacturing of picture frames.
- I went with a friend of mine from New York,
- that I knew from New York, into business together.
- And God was good to us.
- We built up a wonderful business.
- Unfortunately, he wasn't enjoying to the end,
- he wasn't able to see it because he died about five years ago,
- at a very early age.
- I kept the business for another five years,
- and then, I sold it to a national concern.
- And for about two years, I have retired.
- Gone into different investments.
- Given my wife a chance to enjoy her life a little more,
- and try to do some traveling.
- Became active in some very charitable organizations.
- My main organization, above all, is the Memorial Center
- for Holocaust Studies here in Dallas.
- I am active in it, and I hope to continue being active in it.
- And again, I come back to one thing--
- we must not shut our eyes to anything,
- and keep our eyes open and never allow such atrocities again
- for generations to come.
- When did you finally reconcile with your relatives in London?
- Never.
- Never?
- No.
- I have never visited them again.
- They died in the meantime.
- You know, they were much older.
- But I could never forgive them.
- How about their children or grandchildren?
- Their children are still alive.
- And I have nothing to do with them.
- Nothing?
- No.
- I just could not forgive, because I felt at the time,
- where there is a will, there is a way.
- And they could have helped.
- Maybe it would have been too late for my parents
- to come out, because the war broke out then.
- But maybe, if they would have helped,
- we would have been able to get them out in time.
- When you were growing up, did you grow up Orthodox or Reform?
- My father was quite a religious man.
- He would not work on Saturdays.
- He would not smoke on Saturdays.
- I always remember, I had to get out of his way
- because he was a heavy smoker, and when
- he couldn't smoke on Saturdays, he was hard to talk to.
- But as soon as he had his first cigarette
- after Shabbos was finished, he was the sweetest guy
- you can imagine.
- Did your feelings about religion change at all
- while you were fighting in the war,
- and after seeing what happened?
- I am not as religious as my father used to be.
- Because of your experience?
- I believe in religion.
- But I'm not as religious, and I have not brought up my children
- to be very religious.
- But of course, they know the heritage,
- and they're proud to be Jewish.
- But not as religious as my European background was.
- I think we're at a stopping place.
- I want to thank you, on behalf of everyone involved
- in this project, and wish you continued health and success.
- Thank you very much, and I want to thank you for having me.
- It is an honor to be here, and at least state some of my life.
- And I appreciate you calling me in here
- and giving me this opportunity.
- Terrific.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Martin Donald
- Interviewer
- James Pennebaker
Alan Griffin - Date
-
interview:
1985 November 10
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
2 videocassettes (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Personal Name
- Donald, Martin.
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
Dallas Holocaust Museum, Center for Education and Tolerance
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- James Pennebaker and Alan Griffin of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies conducted the interview with Martin Donald on November 10, 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History branch received the tapes of the interview from the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies on July 17, 1991. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the interview by transfer from the Oral History branch in February 1995.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:08:59
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn506595
Additional Resources
Transcripts (2)
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- See Rights and Restrictions
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- This record is digitized but cannot be downloaded online.
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Also in Oral history interviews of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies
Contains interviews with 31 Holocaust survivors in the Dallas, TX area
Date: 1985-1992
Oral history interview with Helen Biderman
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Helen Biderman (née Prengler), born April 21, 1928 in Luków, Poland, describes her four brothers; her parents; growing up in Poland; the chaos of the beginning of the war; the roundup of Jews by the German Army on October 5 and the subsequent execution near a church; the deportations from Luków; going with her family to a nearby town; being forced to live with several families; the winter of 1940; her parents hiding while she stayed with an aunt; being moved to a ghetto with the other Jews; hiding with her family in an underground space during the deportations; being discovered by a Polish fireman hiding in various places; staying for seven to eight weeks in her grandfather's underground bunker with 17 members of her family; hiding with a German woman who owned a brick factory; being found by the Germans and the death of her younger brother; life in the ghetto from the end of 1942 to May 2, 1943; the attempt by some Jews to form a resistance group; falling ill with typhus; being attacked by a German Shepherd; hiding outside the ghetto; her parents reopening their business and staying until April 1945; moving to Katowice, Poland for a year then going to Munich, Germany for three years; her family getting papers to move to the United States; getting married and living in New Orleans, LA; how the Holocaust brought her family closer together; and her feelings about Germans.
Oral history interview with Max Biderman
Oral History
Max Biderman, born February 11, 1917 in Luków, Poland, describes his family; growing up in Poland; the beginning of the war; his family hiding during the roundups; the execution of Jews by the German Army; being caught with two of his brothers and forced to walk to Siedlce, Poland, where they were put in jail; being marched to a town 20 kilometers away and escaping with one of his brothers; returning home and hearing of the deportations to Treblinka; the creation of a ghetto in 1942 during the New Year; hiding during a deportation and the death of one of his brothers; living in the ghetto; working in a German factory; avoiding another deportation by hiding in the woods; contracting typhoid; witnessing the shooting of one of his brothers; being hidden by a Polish couple; hiding with several other Jewish boys; being hidden by a Polish farmer named Bronkevitch; defending themselves against a group of 40 armed men (possibly the Armia Krajowa); hiding in the forest; his group taking revenge on a farmer who denounced hidden Jews; reading newspapers; the arrival of the Russian Army; returning to Luków; finding the Prengler family (he later married Helen Prengler, RG-50.045*0001); going to Brest-Litovsk (Brześć Litewski), Poland after the war; going to Katowice, Poland then Munich, Germany; immigrating to the United States in September 1949; his children and grandchildren; not sharing his story with his children until recently; visiting Poland in 1984 and showing his children where he hid; the importance and danger of having a gun during the occupation; and testifying against a war criminal.
Oral history interview with Ala Danziger
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Oral history interview with Bela Einhorn
Oral History
Oral history interview with Marie Fauss
Oral History
Marie Fauss (née Lucet Marie Selek), born August 25, 1925 at Pont-à-Mousson, France, describes her Catholic mother and Jewish father; visiting the synagogue with her father when she was four years old; her education; beginning college when she was 12 years old; her father reading Mein Kampf and warning her of Hitler’s intentions; her family’s Jewish and Catholic friends; her father deciding she should attend Catholic church; the invasion of Poland; the scarcity of coal; being out of college in July 1940; being warned by an Italian of the impending invasion; her fear of the Germans; fleeing with an Italian family south on minor roads; seeing an exodus of people moving south as they arrive in Nancy, France; being in Nancy during a bombardment; the German restrictions during the occupation; the taking of a census; the round ups and deportations; rumors about concentration camps; taking in other refugees; collaborators; becoming silent and withdrawn; being required to take German at school; being interrogated six times and having their house searched by the Germans; being beaten by interrogators; her belief that the mayor betrayed her to the Germans; being told to report to the town square to be sent to a work camp; being taken to a farm that produced food for a concentration camp in Lorraine; being taken out of the camp after three months with the help of her father; contracting tuberculosis; the arrival of American troops in September 1944; the Germans burning the college and hospital; how the war affected her; and getting married in 1945.
Oral history interview with Max Glauben
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Oral history interview with Bela Goldberg
Oral History
Oral history interview with Henry Goldberg
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Oral history interview with Alli Itzkowitz
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Oral history interview with Mike Jacobs
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Oral history interview with Miriam Joseph
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Oral history interview with Abram Kozolchyk
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Oral history interview with Leo Laufer
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Oral history interview with Helen Neuberg
Oral History
Helen Neuberg (née Chaja Miemacher), born December 12, 1926 in Ostrowice, Poland (possibly Ostrowiec in powiat sokołowski), describes her Orthodox family; growing up Jewish and her interactions with Gentiles; the German invasion; the restrictions placed on Jews; people being killed for breaking the curfew; her experiences in the ghetto; hiding during the deportation of her family, all of whom perished in Treblinka; witnessing acts of brutality and cruelty; obtaining false papers; moving to Warsaw, Poland; finding work as a waitress in Stuttgart, Germany, where she lived in fear of discovery; being aided by a Jewish American solider after the war, who assisted her in finding relatives in North America; meeting her husband, who was a survivor of concentration camps, in a displaced persons camp; and immigrating to the United States with her child and husband.
Oral history interview with Jack Oran
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Oral history interview with Sol Prengler
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Oral history interview with Lori Price
Oral History
Oral history interview with Ann Salfield
Oral History
Oral history interview with Rosalie Schiff
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Oral history interview with William Schiff
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Oral history interview with Jack Stein
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Oral history interview with Erica Stein
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Oral history interview with Manya Wozobski
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Oral history interview with Greta Zetley
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Oral history interview with Leon Zetley
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Oral history interview with James Hirsch
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Oral history interview with Alegre Tevet
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Oral history interview with Zohn Milam
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Oral history interview with Eva Nanasi
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Oral history interview with William Schiff
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