- Diane, is this where all the survivors give their stories?
- [INAUDIBLE]
- This is Dr. Diane Plotkin interviewing William Schiff,
- SMU, October 22, 1991.
- OK.
- My name is William Paul Schiff.
- I was born and raised in Kraków, Poland.
- I was once interviewed, but I'd like to be interviewed again
- to let the world know what's happened
- and the future generation know what's happened.
- Because what's happened to Jewish people
- can happen to any people in any time in any century.
- And preventing of it, I am making my statement again.
- I'm telling my life again, how this happened in my case.
- I was born and raised in Kraków, Poland.
- I have a brother and sister.
- The war broke out in Poland in 1939.
- I was turning 20 then.
- I have a sister, 21 then.
- My brother was 18.
- And my both parents were young too.
- My father was 46, and my mother was 44.
- Sixth day, I think, of October, or seven-- right
- now, from beginning of the war, was just took a few days,
- the Germans were in Kraków.
- Kraków was located not far from Czechoslovak border,
- close to the biggest mountains in Europe, Carpaths.
- And after when the German declared the war,
- Poland has just few planes.
- They barely have an army.
- And German cover that with planes.
- And about fourth day or fifth day,
- they were already in Kraków.
- Right now, when they came to Kraków,
- they right now started with Jews.
- First thing they did, they took away everything Jews own.
- You couldn't own your own store.
- You couldn't own a factory.
- You couldn't employ people.
- A few days later, they start taking us
- to work just to humiliating us.
- For instance, like cleaning streets, working breaking
- rocks, or any kind of common labor,
- they used to use Jews for it.
- For instance, in my home were three people,
- me, my dad, and my brother were all young.
- Each one of us has to go out two times a week to do the work.
- We are not paid for it.
- You call it German zwangsarbeit, which means you have to work.
- I was going four times a week, replacing my father twice.
- My dad was a barber/beautician.
- He has his own store.
- Has about three or four employees.
- We lived very close, about a couple blocks from the store
- where my daddy has it.
- And each time he went to work, took about several months.
- He went to work.
- Then we have an order that Jews cannot own property anymore.
- He didn't have choices.
- He signed over his store to an employee, which one
- worked for him almost 10 years.
- He was a Gentile.
- Well, German systematically start tightening out our life.
- Each night, from different families, people used to--
- German police used to come in and take people out,
- taking them to prison.
- The people, whoever they took disappeared.
- And we were living in fear.
- Not counting the size of this, we have to go to this work.
- Took like the several months.
- Then they found another way to torture us.
- They took me-- how would you call?
- I was working in mountains--
- hard labor, to hit rocks and put in wagons and moving them.
- This was the work I was assigned to it.
- This took several months too.
- After about almost-- after almost a year,
- they start talking about putting us in ghetto.
- Oh, I have forgotten say another story.
- In beginning, I made a mistake.
- In beginning, when the German came,
- we have an order to leave the city.
- I just have forgotten to tell it in the beginning.
- And my uncle, and fifth day when the German came in--
- before the German came in, they will have order
- to leave the city.
- And I took-- this is the most important part I have forgotten
- to say it in the beginning.
- We have order to leave.
- My uncle came in.
- He was about 15 years older than me.
- And my daddy believed in him.
- And my mother ordered me.
- I looked at my mother dirty.
- And whatever she told me I did for her,
- just because I believed in her.
- Everything she said, I believed in it.
- And she ordered me to take my dad and my brother,
- which one was then--
- I was then already 20.
- My brother was about 18 still.
- My dad was, like I said before, 46.
- And with my uncle--
- and then I have another uncle, which
- was a little older than me.
- He is now in States.
- I brought him here.
- We left city because it was ordered
- that if men don't leave the city,
- they will kill off all young men.
- We walked like this almost three weeks.
- And German were bombarding us awful.
- Wherever you turned you saw this, just dead body.
- Was not opposition at all.
- Before I came to Lemberg, which is a large city by the road,
- maybe 200 miles from Kraków, officer
- stopped me, give me a gun, which one I never have.
- I never, never used a gun in my life.
- Gave me a soldier's jacket, and go ahead, fight.
- We'll go give you bullets later, but wasn't time.
- This way we came to Lvov, which one is Lemberg.
- When we came to Lvov, this was almost two weeks later,
- Russia declared war against Poland too.
- And together with Germany, they made a pact
- and hit us from all the sides.
- When we came on the Russian side, they just are--
- a man who was in charge, he was just a lieutenant,
- gave us order to give up.
- We just pick up the arms, Russian
- came in, took their guns from us, and told us go back home.
- I took my dad and my brother, and we both moved back home.
- And then when we came back home, this thing
- started where I just saw the beginning.
- Now, I said before in beginning that I was working
- in this mountains, hitting rocks and putting in special wagons
- and moving them.
- This took about maybe till about 1940, '41.
- We lived this way in fear.
- People were disappearing.
- They used to come to the city each day.
- Well, every-- any soldier has a right to come in and kill.
- If he didn't like somebody, just pulled a gun
- and kill whatever he could.
- Wherever you turn, wherever you went and stood,
- you saw just dead bodies.
- This was before ghetto.
- In 1940-- in this time, I met my wife, Rosalie.
- This was about two months later, after war, I met her.
- She came-- I have a young cousin, which
- used to come and visit us.
- She was her friend.
- And she brought another friend.
- The other plane brought her.
- And through her I met Rosalie, and we started dating then.
- We used to spend almost each day together,
- each day running around.
- But I was tied up with my family.
- My whole life was just the family home.
- I was the only one who was taking care of it
- because my dad, he became like a child.
- He couldn't operate his store.
- He was scared.
- And then life was to get worser and worser and worser.
- And my parents depended more and more on me.
- I was the only one.
- I don't know how they could.
- I was just a boy, like I said, 20.
- And I used to make all decisions about food,
- about everything in the house.
- And we lived like this almost time
- when the ghetto started, when they start telling us
- about going to ghettos.
- This was, I think, somewhere around '41.
- They started moving us to ghetto.
- But not everybody has a right to go into it.
- You have to have a pass or work on certain jobs
- that they let you in there.
- Rosalie was just with her mother,
- which will be my wife now.
- A little sister, but she was then about
- around, I would say, 17 years old because she was about two
- years afterward, or 18--
- has a sister about 14 and a little brother 10 years old,
- and a mother, which one was a woman not
- capable to do anything because she
- was depending on her father, which
- one was a good situated person.
- They lived fully well on this time.
- Not enough I have to take care of my family,
- I used to go take care of them too, helping it out,
- whatever I could.
- And this way our life passed, till they start
- talking about going to ghetto.
- Well, my family has a permission go to ghetto.
- But Rosalie's not.
- Where she was--
- I'm just talking about the close family
- because I don't mean she had about-- we
- have both the big families.
- For instance, I have family almost about 30, 40 people.
- There were little kids.
- I was the oldest boy from the second generation.
- I have older sister one year, but I was the older boy
- in the second generation.
- And they were kids till about three or four years old.
- But what I was in, most of them, everybody
- used to take care of himself.
- A lot of my family left the city.
- But my family was there, and Rosalie's mother with the kids
- was there.
- They have family too, but everybody
- has to take care of themselves.
- And they start moving to ghetto.
- We got the pas move into ghetto.
- Rosalie's family didn't.
- I moved her to a small town outside ghetto,
- rented her a room and moved her with her mother and the three
- kids-- and the two.
- They were, all together, three kids.
- And I, with my parents, we moved into ghetto.
- We have two rooms, two very, very small rooms.
- But we have two small rooms.
- In ghetto, life was awful.
- Awful.
- They were giving us very little food.
- Most of the people couldn't live on the ration they give us.
- From Jewish community used to take care of us,
- but they didn't have anything.
- The Germans were asking more and more from the Jews,
- to give him money, and give him jewels, give him whatever
- we could to keep us in ghetto.
- We have a really tough, awful, awful, awful hard life.
- German used to come in for any reason
- and just when they got mad, they used
- to kill people on the street without a reason.
- They used to tight up of us.
- Everywhere you move, you saw dead people.
- Each day, each day you were not sure,
- or you be not next day, the next one.
- And I used to--
- we used to wear the Star of David, a band
- with the Star of David.
- On doors in ghetto, they used to stay.
- Polish police watching us, under supervision of German.
- But the German was just coming and going,
- but the Polacks were watching us.
- And I used to go out almost each week
- to visit Rosalie at the small town.
- And one day when I visit her, I notice
- that they have a market where they're
- selling any kind of different thing, including chicken.
- And I came home and told my mother about it.
- Now, let me make the remark--
- to going out from ghetto, I have to buy myself off
- from the Polish policeman.
- I was taking a chance.
- Then I took the band off, claiming that I am not Jew.
- And this way I went and visit Rosalie with her mother,
- to help them.
- And that's the way I used to do it almost each week.
- Then one day I came home and told my mother
- about this market I saw that day selling product.
- And I mentioned her chicken.
- I didn't know much about chicken, but when I came home,
- I decided--
- I took my mother with me.
- I smuggled her through this to this little town.
- And she showed me how to buy chicken.
- Here, if you're buying any chicken
- you want them lean, not fat on it.
- But there was opposite.
- If it was lean, people wouldn't take it.
- You have to buy expensive chicken.
- I mean, fat chicken to make it expensive.
- And my mother used to show me how to touch
- him to figure out of the--
- if the chicken are fat.
- We both went on this market.
- We bought chicken.
- I left my mother in one of the building, indoor.
- Then came came back to the border of the policeman.
- And then I smuggled my mother with the chicken together in.
- Now, how I was smuggling the chicken, I will explain to you.
- I used to put on very country clothes, junky clothes,
- very junky, put overcoat.
- I didn't put on my arms, just over me.
- My mother sew me off about five, six, sack--
- sack, you know?
- From how you call it?
- Any cloth.
- And I used to put two in back, two on my side,
- and two on front.
- And I used to cover them with the jacket I wear.
- This way I could choke him because--
- I closed him.
- It's just I made holes in the sacks to keep him alive.
- Because if you wouldn't bring him alive,
- they wouldn't buy him.
- It has to be kosher.
- And if it dies, it's not kosher.
- I did it for almost, gosh, almost all the time
- we were in ghetto.
- I remember several, several times I went out.
- You see, I always needed help because I
- have to leave somebody with the chicken
- somewhere outside before I am buying off somebody on door.
- Each time I was buying him off, I took a chance.
- Maybe they turn me in.
- And this is the way I was visiting
- Rosalie, too, with her mother.
- Then several months later they decide
- they're going to move all Jews back in ghetto from everywhere.
- Then I went out, took her, Rosalie, with her mother,
- brother, sister.
- I moved them in, in ghetto.
- I have then, I think, that's what I remember.
- I have a pass to go after them.
- I don't remember exactly how it was.
- And they-- and found them one little room without windows.
- And that's what they moved in.
- It's just about a block away where
- I was living with my family.
- And then I have two families to take care of.
- And that's the way I was going out almost a year.
- In between they were killing us.
- Just things were going on worser and worser.
- Each day people disappeared, like I said before.
- Each day you were afraid they may come to your house.
- They didn't care if they were women or children.
- For instance, any soldier could come in just for kicks,
- come in and just pick you up.
- If you say something, just shoot you for kicks.
- This way we lived all these years.
- Then I remember one time I went out on this market.
- Rosalie was still my girlfriend then.
- She was, most of them, in my home with my mother
- when I went out.
- They both were sitting waiting for me.
- And I went on market.
- And market didn't open.
- I waited about four hours there before they open it.
- And this was-- over the hours, my mother
- expected me to come back home.
- And I bought some chickens, brought them home,
- but I came late at night and it was dark.
- I found my mother on the door.
- She was with Rosalie together.
- She turned gray in one day.
- Just I can't talk.
- Excuse me a minute.
- And I remember next day, I just packed and go.
- My mother wouldn't want me to go,
- but she didn't said anything because somebody has to do it.
- You know what's the funny thing I don't understand.
- I did it over two years to save them.
- They all of them are gone and I am alive.
- It just doesn't make sense.
- Does it?
- Then I remember one day, one day--
- I'm sorry, the way that I act.
- They decided they're going to make the ghetto smaller.
- Who has a job, who has a job, they let him stay.
- Who didn't, they has to take him in transport.
- Now, before this happened, I was sent
- to work with a group of people.
- I was-- this was over, oh, about few months
- before they closed the ghetto.
- I couldn't go each day anymore for the chickens
- because they found work for me.
- I used to go out to a factory, working, how you would say,
- a nail factory.
- You know, nails which you put--
- which you put things together-- nails, yeah.
- And they start sending me there each morning.
- Then I couldn't go out so often anymore.
- I used to cut down once a week, sometime on Sunday
- when I didn't work.
- And one day they decide they're going to transport people out
- from ghetto.
- They said they're going to move them
- to a different part of town, that they
- have more comfortable life.
- And we didn't know.
- Who could believe it?
- Now, let me get back to another thing.
- I remember when we used to sit and talk about it,
- my dad used to warn me and beg me to leave before they put us
- in ghetto, to escape to Russia, to pay and leave everything,
- go to Russia.
- But I just-- first thing, I hated communism.
- I never believed.
- I was young, just a kid then.
- But I never believed in communism
- because I know human nature.
- It will never work.
- You can't make people equal.
- It's impossible.
- And I would never believe that Germany would do what he did.
- They were the door to culture.
- The German language was all over the world.
- They were the smartest people, the cleanest people
- in the whole world.
- Who could believe that they will do something like this?
- And I didn't believe.
- My dad warned me.
- And I wouldn't believe in it.
- I remember a lot of people used to escape to Russia,
- leave this country go to Russia.
- Some they caught, some didn't.
- But if you made it, you have a chance.
- Here we know that we didn't have a chance.
- But I wouldn't go.
- And I didn't believe that they will kill.
- Because of me, nobody went.
- I just-- wonder is me, how could they depend on me?
- But they did.
- And because of me, they didn't.
- I feel kind of bad conscience because of it,
- because I didn't listen.
- And because of me, nobody went.
- They stayed and depended on me.
- It's just-- then I--
- where I was on it?
- You were in the ghetto [INAUDIBLE]..
- Remember when we were in ghetto, they start sending--
- they start talking about sending people out.
- And my mother came to me and ordered me to stay here.
- I have a job because I was going to this nail factory each day.
- I have a job.
- My brother was doing something inside, has a job.
- My sister has a job.
- But my parents didn't.
- And they told that whoever doesn't have paper to stay,
- they're going to shoot him.
- And I try tell him that I--
- cover him-- put him somewhere, that I hide him somewhere.
- But they wouldn't listen.
- They said, no.
- I have a very, very Orthodox religion-- my daddy wasn't, but
- Mother was awful religion, very modern but religious.
- And I used to respect it.
- And they ordered them to join the transport.
- I want to hide him, but my mother ordered me no.
- She said, you stay here.
- Take care of whatever is left.
- She even told me, I left my daughter and my son with you.
- You stay and take care of them.
- Well, I have saved--
- from time I was a young boy, I always make more money
- than anybody else.
- I always have a--
- how do you say, click to it, that I know how to get around
- to make money some ways.
- But I know how to save it too.
- I never spend it, like some other people, for anything.
- I used to have it--
- I always had my family in mind because when I was a boy--
- I didn't mention to you about it--
- I was the only boy who didn't work.
- My sister went to college before war.
- My brother went to college.
- And it was kind of hard.
- High school used to be like college.
- And I used to always go to work, helping out home.
- Now, I didn't have to bring money home.
- They never asked me.
- But I just feel always that somebody has to do it.
- And I did it.
- Same way, now in war, she ordered
- me to stay with the kids.
- I have saved up money, which she didn't expect it.
- She's wondering where I got the money, how I saved it up
- because most boys, they blowed it, went and spend it like--
- I was grown up, very young.
- From the time I was a boy, 16, 17,
- I never loved sports or games.
- I never smoke, I never drink, but I love night lives.
- And this was not cheap either.
- But besides all these things, I used to know how to save money.
- And whatever we have, whatever I have saved up,
- I give my parents.
- And they took it and went with it.
- And I was left.
- You know, they torture us all during all this time.
- They took a week, that we didn't even
- have time to think about it.
- A week later, they took Rosalie's mother,
- with her sister and brother.
- They want to take her, but she want to stay with me.
- And mother told her that she can't leave her.
- You see, we are dating almost two years,
- but who was thinking about marriage, about anything.
- It was so everything upside down.
- You know, we just were thinking about surviving.
- And she told me she cannot leave.
- She cannot leave.
- She was going to leave in no condition.
- I said, I know I have to marry her.
- And that's what I'm thinking about it.
- And I will.
- And when they took her mother, with her sister,
- the little brother I remember, same time
- they took my brother, which was a year younger
- than me, one and a half year younger, and my cousin.
- And when they took them, we start kind of not
- be sure if this is the right things we're doing.
- But everybody was doing.
- You couldn't make a decision what to do.
- How could you make this?
- Whatever you do, it's wrong.
- And if you hide him, they used to go around and check.
- Whomever they caught hiding, they killed him right away.
- How could you make a decision?
- I remember they-- her parents-- her mother
- with the brother, sister, they took.
- They took, and I have a note from my cousin--
- they brought it from the wagons--
- that all young men they put outside.
- But my brother was so smart, he saved his life.
- He ran away and got himself to transport.
- Three days later I found out that really these boys
- what they took out, they brought them back to ghetto
- because they were young boys for work.
- She couldn't be smart.
- You can you imagine how this affect me, living with it.
- And then-- but after we got settled down,
- it wasn't time to settle down.
- I moved to Rosalie to our apartment.
- We liquidate her apartment.
- It wasn't too much to liquidate.
- We left everything.
- Whatever furniture was in her house, I moved into our.
- And she moved in.
- I was left with her and my sister,
- already about a year older than me.
- She moved in with her sister.
- But two days later we married.
- Married-- this was a marriage, but we have obtained witness,
- and we have a Jewish wedding then.
- We brought somebody in from the city that will be--
- not actually in city that we're married.
- And after we're married, I moved in with my wife
- in the second room.
- And my sister was living in her room by herself.
- This took but around, I would say, several weeks.
- One day I went out to work and came back from work.
- I noticed that they're again transporting people
- from ghetto.
- But they didn't took Rosalie.
- I don't know.
- Some little German told her to be [GERMAN]..
- You know what this means?
- You're a good looking girl.
- Left her-- just luck.
- Everything was just depending on luck.
- He left her.
- And I came back, and I have her back.
- And I found my sister too.
- Where my sister was, I don't know even.
- Then they were they were tightening up on us.
- You see, they didn't give you time even
- to think about other things, just about survival.
- I was talked in many times to join the underground.
- But how could I?
- All these years because I took care of my mother, my parents
- and her mother.
- Now I have just two left.
- How can I leave him?
- And then I was afraid.
- I was afraid, if I go and they find out,
- they were shooting the rest of the family.
- How could I take a chance like this?
- Then they made the ghetto smaller.
- They moved us in together in one room with about eight people,
- one small room.
- And I remember, for my family it was just me,
- my sister, Rosalie.
- We were then married.
- And then were a mother with a son
- and a daughter, two or three other people, all together.
- Just can't even explain to you how we lived.
- This wasn't living.
- Rosalie's grandmother was still alive.
- I remember, she used to go visit her.
- How she survived, I don't even know.
- But I remember she used to go visit her.
- And they start tightening up on us all the time,
- more and more killing, robbing.
- People were still-- anytime you turn, people were disappeared,
- or somebody was killed, or somebody was tortured.
- We lived like this, I think again, several--
- two, three, or four months.
- Then they moved us to Plaszow concentration camp.
- This was around, oh, I would say, three miles maybe
- this time, about 5 or 6 kilometers from where
- the ghetto was.
- And you just could take with you whatever you could.
- I know I took my wife with me.
- And my sister stayed there.
- She send all pick us up.
- And then, you know, I was waiting
- until they get her up there.
- And beginning when they took us in ghetto,
- I could become a policeman.
- You know, the Jewish policeman to watch young people.
- But you have to be nasty, you know, to beat your own people,
- robbing people.
- And I just couldn't do it.
- I went out first day.
- And it just didn't work for me.
- I just-- they throw me out right away, just boot me out of it.
- I just couldn't do things like this.
- How can you just [INAUDIBLE].
- But a lot of people did it, just to save themselves.
- It's just hard to explain what hunger, poverty, and will
- to live can do to people.
- It's awful.
- Everybody turned against you.
- If it comes to life, mother used to--
- I remember when they moved us to ghetto,
- mothers used to leave kids to save themselves because they
- didn't have choices.
- And in ghetto, they close us in in barracks,
- men separate, women separate.
- They were just like shelves.
- It wasn't so bad in Plaszow as it was
- in Auschwitz, when I was later.
- But the women were separate, and the men were separate.
- And you have to just sneak in to see--
- I have to sneak into see Rosalie or to see my sister.
- But when I was then in ghetto, I still have--
- I know they brought from somewhere my aunt
- with my sister, with small, three little kids.
- The kids were about around--
- I was there early in 20s, 23 or 24.
- No, I was about 23--
- 22, 23.
- And she has still small, little kids.
- But the youngest was about three, five, and maybe eight.
- Then I have one of my mother's brother.
- He was, too, my uncle, but he was older than me.
- He was in Polish Army.
- They took him in prison, and then they moved him there.
- Now, this, my other sister with the three kids,
- she has a husband, too, with her.
- Then Rosalie has an aunt with a small cousin, which
- one was about seven years old.
- And they know about everything about families.
- I remember one day I came home, and they drag Rosalie out
- to work.
- Well, I never have a position there.
- But I always could get myself out from work because people--
- see, Jews were doing what they were ordered.
- But if a Jew have any power, they always
- could get away with everything because they never bothered me.
- And I remember, they took her to work.
- I just came out.
- They took her out.
- They didn't say the work.
- And where I was working--
- see, we used to systematically starve there
- because you couldn't live on the food they give you.
- They used to make Appells.
- For instance, somebody escaped.
- They took his family, made on front--
- they put all the people outside.
- And they hang on front of everybody, kids.
- I remember one time, they hang a little boy.
- The boy wasn't more than 15 years old.
- And the rope broke.
- See, it's an international law, when the rope breaks,
- you should let him go.
- He picked him up again and hanged him.
- And when the rope was breaking, he just shoot him in the head.
- And we stayed and watched this.
- We were watching it.
- And this happened almost--
- this was just a daily routine each day.
- When I was going out to work, I was going out to work.
- They were picking us up, German soldier.
- Really was a German soldier.
- It was the Ukrainian, which would work with the German.
- And they were worser than the German soldiers.
- They hated us just because we were Jews.
- Even Polacks hated me.
- I remember that one time they were carrying me,
- and a boy just came with a knife and hit me.
- I still have a place here where he cut me with a knife,
- put a knife in my hand and just told me
- that the time has come Jews.
- It's for you this way.
- And the Ukrainians just laughed and took us to work.
- And another-- next day happened to another boy this way.
- I was going out like this several--
- oh, many times, several weeks, or even months.
- And I decided that it's hard to make a living.
- I noticed that they have aluminum.
- How you call it?
- Blocks, aluminum, small aluminum blocks.
- I just plain stole them and smuggled them in in ghetto
- and sold them.
- And this way we made a living.
- Was another way out.
- I remember one time, somebody told the watchman, something
- fishy about him and check him.
- And I have it here in back pocket.
- And he took me outside.
- And that's just plain luck.
- Took me from top to bottom and checked me,
- but I didn't touch my pocket in back.
- And he let me through.
- That's just plain luck.
- People will tell you there were heroes-- just plain luck,
- couldn't be a hero.
- Then in this work, there was in charge one Polish engineer.
- I don't know.
- I would say-- I would say all Polacks hate Jews,
- but just 90%.
- There were few of them maybe helped, but 90%.
- And he just used to torture us there in work.
- I worked there but I--
- well, let me put it this way.
- I never have a grade up, but I was always
- having a job that I was telling other people what to do.
- I couldn't get on top because if you get on top,
- you got to be mean and beat.
- And I just couldn't do things like this.
- It just wasn't--
- I just-- I just didn't have it--
- to save yourself.
- And I remember one day it happened, one of our boys
- did something.
- And this Polish engineer came and hit him.
- Well, I ignored it.
- And I ignored it the second day.
- Then third day, I just couldn't stand it.
- And I came nice to him--
- why did you do it?
- And he said, you dirty Jew, shut up, and hit me too.
- I said, why did you hit me?
- He hit me again.
- And I said, you better stop it because it's
- a limit what a person can take.
- He hit me again.
- When he hit me again, I just hit him back.
- And we start fighting.
- What's happened, the whole group start fighting.
- And they took us over-- we were about 11 boys.
- It was my fault because I created the whole problem.
- But I didn't mean wrong.
- You know, just a limit-- you can take what you can take.
- They accuse us of sabotage.
- And then came a group from concentration camp
- to bring us up.
- We were about, I think, about 11 boys there.
- When we were marching, one of these watchmen
- said, oh, don't be a stupid Jew.
- Give me whatever you have and run back or they will kill you.
- You know they will kill you.
- But then how could I go?
- He said, I'm going to close my eyes.
- Run.
- How could I go?
- If I would run, I have upstairs, like I told you,
- there was my wife, my sister.
- There was an aunt with three small kids, her husband,
- and another uncle.
- And besides this was a law.
- For one man who escaped, they killed 50--
- first, the man's family, closest and closest friend.
- Now, how could I escape?
- How could I?
- I remember there was one boy, he has a wife and children.
- He wanted-- and I keeped him with power
- not to let him do because first they
- would kill the whole group.
- They would kill us anyway.
- Sabotage, we know we're going for that.
- And he talked me into it.
- I wouldn't do it.
- And we came up.
- I remember, I came upstairs.
- Rosalie was standing crying, watching me.
- She asked me what's happened.
- What could I tell her what's happened?
- My luck again, which was plain luck.
- Before they brought me up, they caught 50 people smuggling
- food.
- Before they caught him with smuggling food in ghetto,
- they took a group of prisoners, made him make a big hole,
- put all 50 in a hole, put around all these Ukrainian
- what worked for them, and shoot them, and buried them.
- And they brought me a half hour later.
- When they brought me, he was so eaten up with these dead people
- and saw young boys coming in.
- He just said, well just beat him up
- and let him go to work, hard work.
- You see, a lot of people will tell you what heroes they were.
- It's just plain luck.
- What could you be a hero?
- And then I could escape, but how could I?
- And I know what I'm facing when I went up.
- But how could I?
- He even told me, what's the difference?
- They're going to kill them anyway.
- But I said, at least not on my account.
- I couldn't live with it.
- How could you live with it?
- I remember they brought me up, put me in hard work.
- They beat up everybody.
- But it just happened, they were all boys from my town.
- They know me.
- They didn't even beat me up.
- They just let me go through.
- They didn't-- a few they hit, but me they didn't even hit,
- and put me in work.
- And I remember, Goeth was his name, the man in charge to it.
- He used to go out.
- You have to salute and answer him a question very straight
- when he asked you.
- And if not, he shoot you.
- My luck again, he approached me.
- And I just lost my tongue.
- I didn't know what to say.
- He just pushed me and went away from me.
- Plain luck, I'm telling you.
- I'm just wondering about the whole world, how it is.
- And then I couldn't get out anymore.
- See, I was-- they wouldn't let us--
- they wouldn't-- they stopped the whole group.
- They wouldn't let us out.
- We're working in ghetto.
- This happened about a week or two.
- Then they decided, after two or three weeks,
- they're going to send me out again and let me go to work.
- I went to work.
- This man never bothered me anymore, never hit anybody.
- I was kind of scared to smuggle anymore
- because he was especially watching me and especially
- checking me.
- And one day I came up, and Rosalie was gone.
- I turned white.
- Then, how they didn't kill me, I don't know.
- I used to jump on everybody, beat everybody, hit everybody.
- [CRYING]
- Excuse me.
- I'm sorry.
- They tried to keep me.
- They called police.
- They beat me.
- I just didn't care.
- Put me down to hard work--
- I couldn't help myself.
- One day, second day, and then I notice a transport.
- People were going-- sending people to transport.
- My sister, I just have my sister and this uncle.
- He was my cousin.
- I don't-- they begged me to settle down.
- But I just couldn't get myself together anymore.
- And next transport they have, I run into it.
- Because I told you, it's going to same direction
- they sent her.
- But they sent us to Auschwitz.
- You know, when they put us in a wagon we're about 12 people.
- When we hear Auschwitz, you're already
- dead because it's a death camp.
- They kept us in a way like this, three or four days.
- Then we came to Auschwitz.
- They took us clothes off.
- I remember there was this thing.
- I have little snapshots with me of my family,
- and they took it away from me.
- They shaved a person from top to bottom,
- your head, everywhere, put me in clothes, put me in a barrack.
- First thing, they put us, and they segregate, left, right.
- I was very skinny, but I have big bones.
- It was my luck, what saved me.
- They always put me right because left was straight to the oven.
- And I went segregation like this, through about three days.
- We didn't work.
- They just-- they just beat us, hit us.
- You see, in the beginning I used to jump and hit.
- But then you reached a point that you were scared.
- You don't want to be tortured.
- You don't want to be beat.
- And then I was by myself.
- I didn't care anymore.
- Just I plain didn't care.
- Because when I would escape, there was no way to escape.
- They were watching you from all sides.
- Then one day they told me you were assigned to Raisko.
- You know, they tattoo us.
- They put the numbers.
- When you lived there, in Auschwitz, you were not-- you
- didn't have a name.
- You just have a number.
- You were just a plain number.
- They never called you with a name, just a number.
- And the barrack where they put me,
- we were about around 119 or 120 people.
- In charge, we have red signs, what mean political.
- We didn't have-- we didn't wear, in Auschwitz,
- the Star of David, just a red sign-- political prisoner.
- And then were the green prisoner,
- which one were gangsters, murderers.
- One of them, a German, was in charge.
- Now in particular barrack where I was,
- shouldn't be more than 118 or 1120 people.
- And each day they added two, three, four.
- This means they let him know that they shouldn't have more.
- Whom he didn't like, he just beat him to death
- or kill him to death.
- No, not regular death, just torture him, beat him,
- then throw him out.
- I mean, each day two people disappeared.
- Some I saw what he did to them, but what could you do about it?
- And then one day--
- I was there about a few days.
- I was assigned they said Kommando Raisko.
- Raisko were the place where the crematoriums are.
- I just realized this was my end.
- I was scared.
- If I do anything, that man is going to shoot me.
- I told, I'm going to wait for occasion then I can escape.
- I remember in between--
- when I can escape.
- But wasn't a way to do it because the concentration
- camp was about around--
- 50 miles all over was just concentration, both sides.
- Everywhere was just concentration camp,
- different side of camp.
- They send me to Raisko.
- Well, I thought it's the end.
- When they send me there, they send me to a laboratory.
- I remember, they sent me to a part where Dr. Miesel,
- I remember his name.
- He was a professor.
- He was finding medicine to cure diseases.
- It was a Jewish fellow, and they forced him to do it.
- When they tried it on me, I didn't see him.
- Then after they tried, they--
- he was making medicine to cure diseases.
- And they were trying it on human.
- And I was brought.
- I was the Guinea pig.
- And they tried it first.
- They tried it when they brought me.
- And it just happened, it was good.
- See, whatever happened, it's just
- I don't know how to call it because a lot have
- called themself heroes.
- But it just was good.
- And when I got eye-to-eye with him, he liked me.
- Right now, he got kind of-- kind of he liked me.
- We start talking to each other.
- He told me about his life, about his daughter, which one she
- has on Irish papers in town.
- And my luck again, his assistant got sick--
- same day.
- He came to me and offered me that he
- wants me to work with him.
- And I said, well, I was never assigned here.
- What do I know about medical things?
- Don't worry about it.
- I'll help you with it.
- We'll try you.
- And he start showing me little things.
- The next day, they try--
- he made another medicine.
- They tried it.
- They tried it on me.
- He said you can't because I need him.
- My assistant got sick.
- And he prepared me for it, showed
- me a few things when they come, that I
- can show him that I know.
- Now, what you call luck again--
- he made some medicine, which they forced him to it.
- They took a Russian young boy and tried it.
- Next day he was dead.
- Serious?
- But I was working with him.
- And what I saw, well, I don't know.
- One time I saw they brung a young girl.
- I don't know that people have ideas like this.
- They put her to sleep and cut off the arm
- from inside here till here.
- And you can imagine how I'll be.
- I was standing outside to watch it.
- And took this arm, add it here, how it's going to cure.
- It was a Jewish girl too.
- Then most of them, they were bringing.
- You know, they were showing the world
- that they are killing Jews.
- But most of them they were bringing Russians and Gypsies--
- kill them same way.
- Well, it's hard to explain to you what I saw there
- during all this year, what I got used to,
- what experiments they did on people.
- I just had any kind-- any kind, just
- like they make on rats here, everything
- was experimented on people.
- And I noticed one day that they have a garage.
- And they're bringing meat in for the soldiers in this garage.
- When they brought-- For instance,
- they brought a half cow.
- Before the meat came in in kitchen for the soldiers,
- the meat came in laboratory, and they tested it wasn't poisoned
- or was not sabotage on it.
- And I watched it.
- Before war, I used to work in day.
- In nights I used to go to school because in day I
- used to work to help up home.
- I used to work on bicycles.
- And I told the professor that I would like
- to work in garage, to help out.
- What do I know?
- I know about bicycles, and I thought I can help out.
- And what's happened, they have a couple men,
- they didn't speak German.
- And I spoke--
- I understood pretty well German and could explain to them.
- They decide [INAUDIBLE] when they put me in garage.
- When they put me in garage--
- and by the way, I got in charge to the garage.
- I was the--
- I wouldn't say the--
- how you say it?
- The foreman.
- You know, whoever came to the garage, brought anything,
- they came to me and I told them what
- to do because I didn't know much about it, but I was helping.
- I was trying.
- Working on the bicycles, I was pushing myself to everything.
- Then when I came back to the concentration camp,
- I have idea.
- I came to the man who was in charge, the kapo man, you know?
- I used to go each day to these Appells.
- And I was scared one day, you know, how long can you
- get away with it?
- I give him an offer, that I know a way how to get meat for him,
- that he can have each day a good meal.
- You see, each barrack was built for [PERSONAL NAME],,
- the kapo man.
- I mean, the man in charge, he lived like a king.
- See, everybody's life depended in his hands.
- Then he has his own tailor.
- He has his own cook.
- He has his own table.
- He has his three or four boys who are sitting around him
- and helped him with everything.
- And you know, I was trying to get around him too,
- to just to save my life because it was hard for me.
- And I told him I have an idea how I can bring meat for him.
- He can eat meat each day.
- I was this, about around about then, about, I would say,
- 24 years old, not exactly.
- And he asked me, what you want to do?
- Well, I said, but you have to--
- I need-- and doing it before with the chickens,
- I have an idea how to do it.
- See, you didn't wear anything on you, just the clothes.
- You see the clothes what we have in--
- just a jacket and pants, not underwear.
- And just sandals, no socks.
- How can you smuggle in meat?
- You know, when you were coming in each time,
- they check you from top to bottom,
- see everywhere, touch you everywhere.
- I told him, well I hope you don't mind.
- It looks nasty, but it isn't.
- I told him, you sew me off a sack
- that I can put it between my legs.
- And so we go from back here and around.
- You see the idea?
- And he did it.
- And each day, when the meat came in,
- I cut off a big piece of meat.
- I don't know how--
- and put it in sack.
- Nobody saw it.
- The boys working with me, they didn't see it.
- They were-- I say "boys."
- They were men in 20s just like I was, young men.
- And when they checked it, and Dr. Miesel told me
- that the meat is good, I bend it between my legs all around
- and tied it here to my belt.
- Did you understand exactly what I did?
- And they touched me, but he didn't
- know what they were touching.
- It's kind of funny.
- And this way I survived.
- See, when I came back to concentration camp,
- I brought him this thing.
- I became his "my Jew," you know.
- I was sitting with him on table.
- He right now put me outside.
- My life-- you know, I didn't have a bad life there, bad.
- He right now sew me off tailor-made clothes.
- I was sitting with him on table.
- Everybody told you a story like this?
- [LAUGHS] Very unusual story.
- And this was in a camp where they were killing people.
- And I survived like this with him.
- You see, I wasn't anymore worried about my life
- because I gained weight then.
- I have good food.
- Well, maybe it was a selfish attitude.
- But you know, everybody has to live some ways.
- In a few days, I found out that they
- brought a group from Kraków, people I was raised with them.
- And I found there a second cousin.
- They brought her.
- She was the next--
- behind the-- how you call it?
- In another barrack.
- And I used to take out food, just helping them out
- because I have enough.
- This continued like this--
- now, what I'm going to tell you what's
- happened there, how they used to beat people and kill people.
- I didn't went any more on Appells.
- He kept me in barrack.
- And he came out, that he has his four or five
- people which will work for him.
- He knows they're there.
- And he was responsible for them, which
- means I didn't have to go out anymore on these Appells.
- I lived like this almost a year.
- He has to change the tapes.
- Isn't this a funny story.
- Yeah.
- It's amazing.
- Bobby, you want to take the--
- we got a--
- You know, I'm just telling you shortage.
- It's hard to tell you everything,
- each thing what's happened.
- I know.
- Till they started evacuating us.
- Like I said, I used to go out and helping smuggling food
- to the other barracks, to other friends.
- I had a lot of time then.
- I made a lot of friends in this hospital where I was going out,
- this laboratory.
- We became very close, all of them together.
- And I remember when, one day, we heard that the German is losing
- the war, that the American and English are pushing
- on us, especially the Russian.
- The Russian were pushing.
- And they started evacuating us.
- For instance, they took us NON-ENGLISH].
- You know these open wagons?
- Well, that's where they start that was a torture for me
- from this time, again.
- In Auschwitz, where were the most worst concentration
- camp, the death camp, I worked myself
- so hard that I could survive.
- But now, when they start evacuating,
- everything was gone.
- They took us, around 120 people in one wagon.
- And they were open wagons, see, halfway open.
- In each corner of the wagon was sitting a watchman.
- Most of them were Ukrainians.
- And whoever didn't feel good, they got-- they pulled a gun,
- shoot him, and throw him out.
- It was freezing outside.
- What I did, I took with me three blankets,
- took my shoes off, and cover myself in these three blankets.
- And I was sitting like this.
- They were giving us, I think, a portion, a little bread daily
- and water.
- I don't even know if they gave us water.
- Was raining, we have water.
- If not, we didn't have water.
- And they kept us in this wagon, I remember, from Auschwitz
- to Gross-Rosen.
- For three nights, they barely were moving.
- And it was freezing outside.
- So each day, when I went, uncovered myself,
- I saw less people.
- I saw my [INAUDIBLE] taking somebody else and throwing out.
- Or if somebody didn't feel or complain,
- they just came straight to his head,
- shot him, and throw him out.
- When we arrived in Gross-Rosen, they started taking us out.
- I don't think they took us 4, 5, or 6 alive out from this.
- Most of them who was still alive,
- they couldn't took their shoe off.
- Because it was frozen to their feet,
- just came off with their foot together often.
- I will say again that I was [NON-ENGLISH],, lucky.
- But I have sense.
- And I covered myself with these three blankets.
- That's what saved me.
- They took us out.
- I don't know, 5 or 6.
- They put us in hospital.
- Then they took us out right away and put us in barracks.
- Gross-Rosen was upside down.
- Still, they used to beat us, kick us, push us around.
- We didn't work there anymore.
- Just like prisoners, they used to take us out and just make
- appells.
- And each time somebody came out and was shaky or was broken,
- shoot him.
- Put him away.
- Each day was less people.
- I was in Gross-Rosen like this two weeks.
- After two weeks, I decide I'm going to run.
- I don't have what to lose now anymore.
- I still feel good.
- I escaped.
- What's happened, one day they put me to work.
- And I-- so was a little dark.
- I just jumped in barrack somewhere else.
- And they couldn't count us because everything
- was upside down.
- They said they were telling that the Russian is moving on us.
- And I start running.
- I walked into a German home.
- And they saw I was prisoner because I have the prison
- clothes.
- They said they will help me.
- When I went to sleep, they wake me up.
- They called police, wake me up, and turned me over
- to the police.
- They brought me back in.
- You know what they did?
- Took my clothes off from back, put me behind the wall,
- and beat me with two Peitsches until I fainted.
- After I fainted, they put me in a small hospital.
- They cure me and then put me in a barrack for a week
- and cure me.
- Then they took me outside and said
- we give you another lesson.
- You will never escape.
- They made a hole in ground and put me there,
- just like they bury people.
- Put me there for 24 hours and covered me with boards.
- And after 24 hours, they took me out.
- They said you will never escape again.
- They covered you with?
- Boards, you see, they made just a hole, like,
- you putting a dead person.
- Mhm.
- They just push me in on this ground,
- was just about five feet, not even six feet.
- And then on top, they covered with two boards.
- Air was coming in because they were in between.
- But they covered me, keep me there, 24 hours.
- With boards?
- With boards.
- That's what I said, with boards.
- Keep me there 24 hours.
- Then after 24 hours, they took me out.
- And they put me again to what they call a hospital.
- There wasn't a hospital.
- They just gave me some medicine.
- I don't even remember what they did to me.
- Then they put me in barracks.
- Let me get to my strength again.
- And they said you will never escape again.
- Well, then start pushing us again.
- Well, then, what do I care anymore?
- See, they couldn't kill anybody for me.
- Next day, I thought everything is upside down.
- Everything stopped moving.
- I run again.
- And I run like this, but I run a couple miles.
- Then I felt I cannot run anymore.
- I notice wagons, trains.
- I walked in in a wagon.
- When I walked in in the wagon, overnight,
- I waked up in the morning, I hear noise.
- When I opened the door, same time when I opened the door,
- they opened the door and start moving prisoner
- in to moving him somewhere else.
- [NON-ENGLISH],, did you understood.
- And I went, again, on transport.
- This way they brought me to Buchenwald.
- We came to Buchenwald.
- Everything was upside down.
- They were not afraid anymore Russian.
- But they were afraid now the Americans and Englishmen.
- Because they were pulling from both sides.
- They put me on this, how you call it, beds.
- They were just shelves.
- You know, we're sleeping all but this long part, five people,
- four up.
- Just like animal, just like sheep, even worse than sheep.
- And they took a group of about 40 people,
- just picked me, I ask something.
- I always was coming out with a question and answered it.
- They put me in charge.
- They used to bring soup and let me
- divide the soup to all people.
- But wasn't enough food.
- And well, I don't know.
- Maybe if I took advantage and put away part for myself,
- I maybe would survive it.
- But I was not the kind.
- I first was giving to everybody.
- And then I remember I have a friend.
- This is what you call a really friend.
- That's the only friend I have in my life, a really good friend.
- He was working with me laboratory.
- And when we came to Buchenwald, we met.
- And we were together, sleeping.
- He was to me, like--
- I was about 24.
- And he was about 38, 39.
- He was a chemist.
- He has a doctorate degree, a chemist.
- And he liked me and we became friends.
- He was to me like my older brother.
- Big heavy fellow, he was about a half head taller.
- Weighed three times-- were big like me,
- he were a very heavy fellow.
- And each time we were sitting, he was just talking about food.
- And it got me--
- how could you live like this?
- What would he eat?
- What he's going to do?
- And how he is going to eat?
- And I remember we used to get a little piece of bread, maybe
- a half pound.
- Now that's what you call a good friend.
- He tried to teach me.
- If you want to survive, you got to take this bread
- and divide it in three pieces and eat one for breakfast,
- one for lunch, one for dinner.
- And I said yes, I'm going to try it.
- And first day I tried it, I just couldn't do it.
- I was just a young kid, hungry.
- He divided.
- I divided.
- But before lunch came, I didn't have nothing to eat.
- And I remember lunch came.
- He took out his second piece of bread.
- Like I said, a big heavy fellow, and start eating it.
- And my eyes must be popped up on him.
- I was watching him.
- And he liked me.
- He took his third piece bread, what his life depended on it,
- you see the point, what he put for dinner,
- and tried to give me this piece of bread.
- And I wouldn't take it.
- I remember he used to try to convince me.
- He talked to me.
- But I wouldn't take it.
- And then he ate it by himself for dinner.
- Can imagine?
- That's what I call a good friend.
- You see, last piece bread, what his life depended on it.
- And a big fellow, I was just skinny, small.
- But I was [INAUDIBLE] to him, I was a kid.
- And we were till last minute together.
- And I remember one day, I just grabbed a potato.
- And it is potato with the skin.
- And I didn't notice it was dirty.
- And I became diarrhea.
- I started losing weight.
- I couldn't eat.
- I couldn't drink.
- And I reached a point that I barely could walk.
- And I remember they start evacuating.
- They ask everybody to stay in line.
- We're going to another place because the American
- are very close.
- There were American very close.
- And I feel that I couldn't make it.
- I just decided I went into the barrack.
- Because I know if I go out, first step I do,
- they will shoot me.
- How long I stayed there, I don't know.
- I think light turned twice, maybe.
- Then I felt that I'm dying.
- I just didn't care anymore.
- At least-- a German, not German, I just start asking for help.
- American soldier came in.
- He took me out.
- And I don't know how they even got there.
- That's a true story.
- Then they put me in bed.
- Now my luck, again.
- When they put me in bed, they brought us
- good food, tremendous good food, feeding.
- Most people throw themselves on food like animals
- and it killed them.
- I couldn't eat.
- I hated food.
- I couldn't eat because of this whole sickness.
- They put me on a scale.
- You can imagine.
- Well, I weigh now almost 190 pounds, 185, 190.
- You can imagine me weighing 69 pound, just a skeleton.
- They tried to put food in me.
- I couldn't eat.
- They feed me through my veins.
- Almost, I don't know, 5 or 6 weeks before they
- start putting food in my mouth.
- And that's what saved me.
- Most people throw themself on food.
- Stomach couldn't take it.
- It killed them.
- Well, when I stand on my feet, when the Americans were there
- ready, see they opened the doors.
- You couldn't do anything there.
- They put right now [INAUDIBLE] in your hand.
- You couldn't touch a German.
- You couldn't do nothing to a German.
- This was American law.
- I remember I met this Dr. Maisel, which one I mentioned
- you, mentioned you that he made me his assistant,
- and he still liked me.
- I saw him.
- He was sick and I was sick.
- And I stand on my feet faster than him.
- And I used to take care of him.
- He decided he wants to take me with him.
- But he just got a news from his daughter
- that his daughter is alive, that he wants me to be his son
- and go with him.
- And I said, I can't.
- I have a wife.
- How I know she's alive, I said, I don't.
- But I look for her first.
- And we decide together we're going back home.
- There was not a way to get back home.
- I took Dr. Maisel with me.
- Well, I'm sorry.
- Just wait a second.
- In [PLACE NAME],, we met a few girls, young girls,
- which one I took with me.
- There was another friend I met there.
- I took him with me.
- Then I remember we went in a train.
- When we went in this train, we were traveling,
- I think, around 2 or 3 days.
- Then one day a couple women came in.
- And they were German.
- See, when German used to have that train,
- he used to put signs on door--
- Jews, Russian, and dogs out.
- Well, when we came on the Russian side.
- They changed the signs.
- They put German and dogs out, the Russian.
- And this day I remember I was outside.
- There was a girl.
- And I just kind of--
- she looked to me Jewish.
- And she approached me.
- I used to wear little Russian boots.
- Russian, you know, the tight pants, what they wearing
- and a Russian white shirt.
- And ask me if I'm Russian.
- And I said no.
- I'm a Jew.
- I said I'm Jewish, too.
- And she joined our party.
- And then on this train, two women came in on Russian side.
- They were German women.
- When they saw them come in, they approached them and told them
- in German, [GERMAN].
- German and pigs out.
- And when they throw them out, and I
- don't know what came over me, I just couldn't let him do it.
- In this minute, I just saw two women thrown.
- Young women, mother was maybe 40.
- Daughter was just still a teenager.
- And then I fight him all the time until the train stop.
- When they stop train, they throw me out.
- They threw the women out.
- And they stop, train stop.
- After they throw me out, Dr. Maisel went out with me.
- All these girls went with me.
- This friend went with me.
- And then I was asking myself, why did I do it?
- See, I was dreaming when I get out,
- any German, I put my hands on.
- I do it.
- And then I have the first chance I remember,
- when they throw us out, we didn't have a way to go.
- We were then in Breslau already on Polish side.
- Breslau was then Polish.
- Before was Germany.
- No, this was on outskirts on Breslau, in a small town.
- They took us to a burgermeister.
- And we asked him for a wagon.
- I was the one speaking German.
- And I told him wagon.
- And he said we cannot give you a wagon.
- We need them take our kids to school.
- And I give him-- right now I say you're
- lucky you have kids to take them to school.
- We don't even have kids to take them to school.
- We like for him to then walk to school but we don't have it.
- And you did it to us.
- And I gived him three hours.
- He start arguing with me.
- What's happened, this girl which one I met,
- met a Russian officer.
- And he liked her.
- And she introduce him me, that I was her brother, to him
- and told him that we need a carriage.
- He just told the burgermeister took our
- we'll have the carriage.
- Went this way to Breslau.
- In Breslau, he took us to downtown.
- Told the girl which one house you want?
- And she just point him a house.
- He went to the house, old Deutschen house,
- threw them all out, and give us the whole house
- in the middle of downtown.
- We moved in.
- I can tell you all story details what's happened there.
- But we moved in altogether, separate.
- Well.
- And then I was trying to explain her that I have a wife.
- I have to go.
- I have to find her.
- She tries to keep me.
- Who knows?
- Maybe she's married.
- Who knows?
- Maybe she doesn't know that you exist if she is alive.
- And I said I'm still going to see, find her.
- And then I just packed and went, decide to go.
- During this time when I was there,
- what made me decision come home, some girl saw me on street.
- And she looked at me and said William, gosh, you're alive.
- Rosalie is going to turn crazy when
- she finds out that you alive.
- Didn't act funny.
- Because when she told me that she was alive,
- then I decided I'm going home.
- They still went with me, all of them,
- the whole group went with me thinking that I maybe
- don't find my wife.
- Especially the doctor wants me badly go with her.
- We went to Krakow.
- Where are you going?
- When we came, I remember I came to the city.
- When you stand on the city where you were raised, born,
- you spend your time in being 20, you remember all details.
- And I was a very advanced boy, very advanced when I was a kid.
- I already made money when I was 14 years old, 15.
- I already used to help home.
- I didn't have to, but I did it.
- I feel obligated.
- Where are you going you will find the Jewish community
- center.
- They brought me to a Jewish community center,
- which one was in downtown now.
- Well, I started looking people for--
- who are alive.
- I found one, only one.
- There is a man who was freed in Buchenwald.
- Rosalie, she found myself, that I'm alive.
- And went down the same year and saw me.
- And told me Rosalie is there.
- And then she took me and brought me to her house.
- She already knew that I was-- she didn't know already
- that I was coming.
- She fainted when I walked in.
- She lived there with about three girlfriends.
- Well, I hope she don't mind what I'm going to say.
- First thing when she saw me, she said if we met,
- she wants us to have a child.
- How can you have a child?
- We didn't have nothing to live on.
- All girls moved out from this room.
- I moved in with her.
- There wasn't a way to make a living.
- I didn't have.
- I just bought several old wrecks,
- which when I picked up here and there.
- And I went on all markets selling it.
- And that's the way we were making a living.
- Then after two weeks, then I have an uncle,
- which one came from army.
- He used to bring his packages for army.
- He was a sergeant, I think.
- And then I decided we leave it.
- And her father used to have a factory, which they were making
- insulation for buildings.
- And I have idea we picked up the engineer.
- We found him.
- And he offered us a deal.
- Why don't you stay here?
- We open the factory.
- We start working in it.
- But he-- right now, give me a point.
- You got to follow my rules.
- And I said OK.
- We made agreement that I follow his rules
- but I have to like his rules.
- And he agreed to it.
- But then when we walked out of her,
- she decided she doesn't want anything.
- We will leave everything what you got here in Russia.
- I went to my dad's store.
- The men who worked for him, I walked
- in, I recognize all the same furniture
- where my parents used to have.
- He didn't know where to put me.
- Put me on chair and give me a haircut, shaved me.
- But he said it's mine.
- I got papers to prove it.
- Yeah, it was here.
- Because my daddy didn't have choices.
- I was there when he signed it to him.
- I just walked out.
- I went to the home where I was living.
- There were strange people living.
- They didn't know me.
- We were living with Rosalie in the house where
- her parents used to live before, but above her parents house.
- She recognized her parents' furniture, but what could
- she do about it?
- We both decided that we'll leave everything.
- Walked out.
- I remember she was wearing wooden shoes when I met her.
- We just hitchhiked.
- We took a train and hitchhiked, on this--
- commercial trains.
- We hitchhiked to Austria.
- And in Austria, we have to go on American side on border.
- And there wasn't a way out to get there.
- You see, I have a passport that I was free on American side.
- But when I went to show him the passport,
- he wouldn't let me show the passport.
- He got mad and pulled a gun on us.
- American soldier wouldn't let us through, back.
- And Rosalie cried.
- She was scared.
- She wouldn't go in.
- Well, I just fooled him, what I did.
- The streetcar came.
- It was on border.
- I just took Rosalie and went around the streetcar.
- And I was pretending that I am coming from American side
- to there Russian side and showed him the American passport.
- He pushed me up and away.
- This way we crossed the border.
- And there we were living in DP camp.
- Should I tell you all the story what happened there?
- Huh?
- You have time?
- What you have to do, there were coming packages from UNRRA.
- First thing, we were living in [PLACE NAME],, which
- was a small, small, small camp.
- This was not a camp, just a group
- of people living together.
- And then we decided that she is going to get pregnant.
- We didn't have no money to live.
- And I used to go out, buy and sell, didn't work.
- Then I made a tour to Poland.
- Came back.
- We made a little money.
- And then she got pregnant.
- And then we moved into apartments already.
- They gave us three bedroom apartment, three families.
- It's just I have a small child.
- We have a small child.
- They gave us the biggest room.
- And I remember there was a couple which one we're friends
- till today.
- They want to move in.
- They came with a small child.
- And they wouldn't let him in.
- And I just kind of fight him and got him in.
- They let him stay in kitchen.
- We're crowded enough, but there was another Jewish family.
- We have to get him in.
- And I let him in in kitchen.
- We're friends till today, what a friend you are.
- And from then, I have a chance to go to three countries.
- There was United States, Canada, and Australia.
- And I told myself which one get first, I take it.
- My wife want to go to Israel.
- She even prepared herself for it.
- But in this time, I was the boss.
- I was making all decisions.
- And she was like a kid following me.
- Whatever I said was done.
- I was changed a little.
- She got American now.
- But then she followed me blindly.
- And she prepared everything go to Israel.
- But I wouldn't.
- I decided I have enough work.
- I like to live like a human being.
- And I take papers, whatever, I get it.
- The first papers came to the United States.
- They ask me what part United States I pick up.
- And I said I don't care if it's United States.
- Now the other thing what's happened, you see,
- whomever they assigned to United States
- after coming to New York, nobody would go south.
- Whoever they stopped in New York and they settled in New York.
- And this time this was in '49, beginning '50s.
- I came in '49.
- And I got the papers in '48.
- But I have some little things to take care of, to straight out.
- And after I start out, go through with it.
- We left in '49.
- This was in June.
- They brought us to Bremerhaven.
- Bremerhaven, we waited for a ship going to New Orleans.
- See, they got smarter.
- Because I waited a year, they wouldn't send me to New York.
- They send me to New Orleans, preventing
- from stopping in New York.
- Was very close to Texas.
- I was on ship three weeks.
- Now I put Rosalie in a cabin where the officers are.
- Because she has our son.
- He was exactly three years old.
- They put about 2, 3 women with three kids.
- And where I was on a ship with a whole group of people working.
- I got myself in kitchen and became
- in charge of the kitchen.
- This time I was ready to push everywhere.
- I got in charge.
- Like I said, I never reached the top.
- I was really close to it always.
- And she was sick all three weeks on the ship.
- All three weeks she was sick.
- I used to run between here and her and my work.
- This mean for my bringing to the United States,
- I was working on an army ship which
- one was coming with their soldier
- back to the United States.
- I was on the ship three weeks.
- We arrived in New Orleans beginning August.
- And I left in June.
- Can imagine.
- They kept me there a month, and here almost three weeks.
- We arrived there in the beginning August.
- We stayed overnight.
- And they brought us to Dallas in 1949 in August.
- We're now in August, passed about 42 years
- I'm in states now.
- They brought us down.
- They put us in a hotel, if you call it a hotel.
- There was a little, little, little shaggy rooming
- house close to [PLACE NAME] South Dallas.
- Jews used to live there.
- South Dallas.
- All Jewish life used to be south Dallas.
- We didn't have frigidaire.
- Frigidaire, you have to put ice in it, to have a frigidaire.
- But for me, this was luxury enough
- because I never saw a frigidaire before in my life.
- Who has them in Poland?
- In Germany, they have it.
- But in Poland, nobody has it.
- Even a bicycle was a luxury in Poland when I was raised.
- We stayed in this hotel about around 2 or 3 weeks.
- I went on street and find me a job.
- How did I found the job?
- I used to go to school studying being a machinist.
- And in day, I used to work on bicycles in the store.
- They asked me what a profession you have.
- They ask me sewing machine.
- But that's all I understood, machine.
- And I said yeah.
- They told me there are two stores in town
- they will take me down from Jewish community center.
- I waited and waited.
- They never did.
- I just walked on my feet to downtown
- and walked to the store.
- What's happened, he understood Yiddish
- when I talk to him, Jewish.
- But when he talked to me, I understood
- badly a few words in between and couldn't get through with him.
- I told him to call Jewish community center, Jewish family
- service.
- And somebody from Jewish family service came there.
- And then when they start asking him give me a job,
- he said, well, I have a porter.
- They used to be, at this time, the Blacks
- were working for nothing then.
- They were second class citizens in the '50s.
- They couldn't go nowhere.
- They couldn't drink.
- I don't know you ever lived it through.
- You can imagine how I feel after where
- I came to this kind of system.
- We're going in a streetcar.
- A Black man couldn't come in.
- He has to sit in back.
- You couldn't drink from the same faucet.
- And me, living through things like this,
- you can imagine how I feel.
- I pay him $25 bucks.
- We give him $25 bucks.
- How many hours?
- Whatever hours we need him.
- And that's the way I started.
- They give me-- told me, first day I came in,
- they give me a pot.
- I was exactly turn 30.
- They give me a pot, a broom.
- And first thing, he took me in a toilet to clean it.
- I was working like this about around two weeks.
- After 2 or 3 weeks, he said I'm pretty quick,
- whatever he tells me.
- He put me in shop being a sewing machine mechanic, helping.
- They have a mechanic there working for almost 40 years.
- Was an older man, about almost 70.
- And when I walked in, I start helping him.
- Till about three months, I used to do a better job than he did.
- They try fire him.
- When he found out they tried to fire him,
- he tried to talk me in to quit the job and go with him.
- He found somebody with him who was investing money in a store.
- And he was willing taking me on 1/3 partner without a penny
- and signed a contract just to work with him.
- And I wouldn't do it.
- Because I told my boss.
- He start crying.
- Don't do it to me.
- I just bought this store.
- I started with another man.
- I worked for him a year.
- Then he sold it to other people.
- And this man who bought it, he wouldn't let me go.
- And I was on this job about six months for this guy.
- And then this first guy, I talked him in to send me
- on repairs.
- And my luck, his repairman got sick.
- So he send me on repairs, I couldn't speak English.
- But he has all the men.
- I understood already, but I couldn't speak.
- He has an older man who understood Polish but couldn't
- speak.
- He sent me with the old man, that he be the dolmetscher
- and I be the repairman.
- And I made first day 14 calls.
- He couldn't believe it.
- And then when the older guy came back from work,
- he just plain quit him and put me in his place.
- And I became a repairman.
- Then I noticed that, well, you're making repair,
- you don't make money.
- I talked him in to make me a salesman.
- And then, well, I started with $35 a week.
- Then with this man till one year, he raised me till $70.
- People used to make $50 bucks a week
- there if you didn't have education.
- Then I asked him for a raise $100.
- If not, I quit.
- He gave me the $100.
- Then I asked him for commission.
- He gave me commission.
- Then I asked him that I can sell for better prices.
- But whatever I sell more, I want to be partner to it.
- And he went in and-- whatever I want, he give me.
- And this was the only job I have.
- I worked with him 17 years, then quit.
- And this was the mistake I made.
- Because what's happened, wherever I used to go out,
- he used to take me with him, they talked to me.
- They didn't talk to him.
- He start to tell me story.
- I don't know why they talking to you.
- You were handicapped in language.
- And I told him, not a man is a handicapped in language
- who doesn't have a language.
- A man is handicapped in language who has that language
- but doesn't know how to use it.
- Then he told me I'm getting too smart in my britches.
- I said fire me.
- He said I can't afford it.
- And I worked-- then not even this.
- He told me I am paying you.
- You're making twice so much what other people.
- I said you said it.
- I am making it.
- You're not paying me.
- But whatever $1 I make for me, I make for you $5.
- He didn't say no.
- What could he say?
- Then he built himself a commercial business.
- Put me in charge to it.
- And I helped him.
- I even lent him my [NON-ENGLISH]..
- You know what is [NON-ENGLISH]?
- What I saved up to have.
- And he promised me he's going to pay me commission.
- But he didn't pay me like the bank pays.
- He paid me like he wants to.
- And I went for it.
- And then he start pushing me back.
- He wouldn't let me in and he sold the business.
- And this what I made a decision.
- I quit.
- My son graduated from college.
- He took me into real estate.
- And I bought one building, which one was the Traveler's Lodge.
- And then went to bank, bought another one and another one
- with that money.
- Just on credit.
- I don't know.
- But it was tough.
- Hard, I couldn't keep up with him.
- You see, the building I have several of them,
- they didn't put enough money to pay employees.
- But I was on the job 17 years before I quit.
- It's the only job I have in this country.
- I start from nothing.
- And then when I have the several building,
- I didn't made enough money to pay employees.
- My wife became a beautician.
- This the first time she went to work.
- Before I didn't let her work because we have three children.
- And I always believed if you have children-- and this time
- she listened to me, you know?
- [LAUGHS]
- Now let me put it this way.
- If you do have children, children need house.
- If not, don't have them.
- And she stayed home with children.
- She started working.
- And she became a beautician.
- I don't know if she ever told you about it.
- Yeah?
- I mean, she was a beautician many years.
- And we lived in a section where Jewish people
- didn't live at all.
- There was a bad time like now.
- We couldn't sell the home.
- And we were stuck in it.
- I bought a home.
- And I was here four years.
- I had bought a big house and I couldn't afford it.
- And I was by myself working.
- Was hard.
- I worked from 8 o'clock in morning
- till 10 o'clock at night six days a week.
- And seventh day, I used to take my whole family in truck
- and go work with the whole family.
- This was our Sunday.
- And after 10 years, we sold the house
- and moved into Richardson.
- Really it's not in Richardson, it's
- on border of Richardson and Dallas on Stagecoach.
- Yeah.
- And then when I went in business.
- This is where we started in real estate, yeah.
- Then was a hard time.
- Then we did pretty well.
- Well, really how it was, I retired first time in 1967.
- Rosalie decided she's not going to work anymore.
- And we have enough money for a possible life.
- And I retired.
- And then I couldn't take it.
- I just figured out I didn't retired.
- I was just tired of working, but I was too young to retire.
- I went in and then back, and then the break came,
- break came.
- And I just worked.
- Everything started going up.
- I started buying and buying and selling.
- And I made pretty good money then.
- Now I retired pretty well.
- Oh.
- It just happened now.
- Well, I'm going to be funny about it.
- I don't do much anymore.
- I retired.
- But well, like I just said, I don't get richer anymore.
- But I don't get poorer.
- It just mean I got a good life.
- And I'm content whatever I have.
- And life goes on.
- Let us backtrack one, little one.
- Can you tell us a little bit about life in the DP camp?
- Which one?
- How many were you in?
- In Auschwitz?
- No, in the DP camp.
- After war?
- After the war.
- Well, this were not really like-- it was a DP camp.
- But we were free people we could do what we want.
- Packages were coming from UNRRA, which one they
- sent from HIAS, most of them.
- But you know, really there were most people working with it.
- Before it came to the people who needed it,
- there wasn't much left.
- And I wasn't the kind to stay in line to ask him.
- What did you do there?
- Did you have a job?
- I used to buy and sell, always peddling around
- and always make a living.
- And I used to buy the things.
- Whatever they brought, I bought it
- from the people they worked there.
- That's way I used to earn my life.
- And that's the way we were several years.
- Yeah.
- How long between the time that you crossed the border
- until you left for the United States or until you got papers?
- I was in United States-- oh, there
- was another story in the United States.
- When I came to United States, you see,
- I really didn't have papers at all.
- And when I came here with my son--
- good that you asked me about it--
- my son was already 3 years old.
- And I was already married.
- This was in 1949.
- We were already married seven years.
- And they asked me that I cannot become a citizen if I
- don't prove with papers.
- I have paper, I have to marry her again.
- And I just put my principle on it.
- I cannot marry a woman which I never divorce.
- And they said that doesn't matter,
- but still for the principle.
- I said there is another principle.
- You see, my son was born in '46.
- [LAUGHTER]
- And I'm not going to put a paper that I married in '49 or '50.
- They said it doesn't matter.
- I said matters to me.
- I have already a kid born.
- He was born four years after I got married,
- why should I put on a paper that he was [INAUDIBLE]..
- I just don't want to have a record like this.
- Why should I?
- And what's happened, they ask me to take some witness.
- And I produce a couple witness.
- And then they put me on a list.
- I applied for papers.
- And a year later, my uncle from Poland
- sent me the original paper.
- I have them now.
- And then when I took them back, they
- said they don't need it anymore.
- [LAUGHTER]
- And after being five years in this country,
- it was almost 5 and 1/2 years, they interview us.
- You know, in this time today, they asking for groups.
- But then, everyone by self was taken in.
- And you have to tell them the Constitution, what
- you know about the United States, about the King.
- And you know, I have went to a examination.
- Then my wife went to examination.
- And when we got our papers, automatically our son
- became a citizen.
- Now our second daughter, well, she
- was produced and born in this country.
- We came here with one child just.
- We were here in this country.
- We came here in August '49.
- But our daughter was born in September '50.
- This mean 1 and 1/2 years later.
- We came here and I told my wife, a boy for you, a girl for me.
- It's just we have a problem with the son.
- The son was born with a clubfoot.
- And some people told my wife that each child
- what is going to be born is going to be this way.
- And the doctor never gives us hope.
- They said that he be limping all his life.
- I used to carry him to Vienna.
- Don't even ask me how hard it was.
- He was about 1 and 1/2 year old before we got him first time
- home.
- But he works perfect.
- Big, husky, big fellow, he's 45 years old now, almost 46.
- Yeah.
- You recently, or a few years ago, you had a big anniversary,
- didn't you?
- We have our big anniversary.
- That's where the Holocaust started.
- You see, they tried to build the Holocaust.
- They couldn't get money.
- You mean a Holocaust center?
- Center, they tried talking about it, talking about it.
- I know you saw the movie [INAUDIBLE]..
- And then my son decide surprise us.
- And he made the party.
- And that's the party who really built the Holocaust.
- Because everybody, we have about 300 people,
- everything what anybody was donated
- for the Holocaust, my son paid in, I think,
- first time $20,000 or $30,000.
- And then he added another $25,000.
- And then the donation, everything went for it.
- Then each time they need carpets or something, my son put it in.
- I mean, he did it.
- And they built a library, which was
- supposed to be called [INAUDIBLE] Memorial Library.
- But they don't call it this way.
- They never started.
- Yeah.
- I know Rosalie speaks to groups.
- Yeah.
- Why won't you speak to groups?
- Why don't speak to group?
- Well, I tell you why I don't speak to groups.
- They put a small sign in this Holocaust, which one is not--
- and put it behind the door that is not visible at all.
- Then they start putting signs how much everybody gives money.
- But put us in marker that we spend just less than $5,000.
- And my son spent less than $5.
- And I just didn't like it.
- Because I don't think anybody spends so much what we did.
- How important do you think it is, then,
- to teach the next generation about the Holocaust?
- Just like I said in beginning, it's very important.
- Because things like this happen.
- Now really happen not just to Jews,
- happened to gypsies just same way like to Jews.
- They didn't advertise.
- And according to my opinion, most people
- died in this war was Russian people.
- Because each Russian, they cut, they murdered them,
- killed them, just like Jews.
- They hated Russians.
- Statistics show off in this Second World War,
- there were killed 6 million Jews.
- Other nationalities were killed just 5 million,
- but Russia was killed over 20 millions.
- And things like this happen to Jewish people
- can happen to any people.
- Because other people are still ignorant.
- Why they this way?
- It's hard to understand.
- See, we didn't ask to be born like we're born.
- But it's nothing wrong to be what you are.
- I'm proud that I'm Jewish.
- And especially what I suffered makes me more Jewish.
- But it doesn't mean the other people are not people.
- They're human beings like everybody of us.
- See, people are going in churches and preaching.
- But they don't practice what they preach.
- They believe that God knows and create the world.
- Why they don't live up to the respect everything He create?
- But it doesn't work like this, just my opinion.
- And things like this can happen again.
- We never know.
- This is how we got to prevent from happening.
- This is our world has to know about it to educate the world,
- to people to see what's happening,
- and that they know how to prevent it in case when
- something would happen.
- And then, you see, if we would have Israel,
- this wouldn't happen to Jewish people.
- Because we would have a place to go,
- which one is very important to start talking about it now.
- What happened in the ghetto?
- I am going to-- now what's happened to the ghetto.
- They used to come, soldiers, in houses,
- taking out women, raping them, picking out pregnant women
- and beating them.
- There had been a case when they took a knife stuck
- in a pregnant woman's stomach.
- They used to take the kids, beat them over the walls.
- Or when they have just for fun, they came in,
- took out, just whomever they saw, pick up and pull them out
- and pile up people like this, just
- like a hill of people, dead bodies.
- Most of them they used to torture,
- the Hasidic Jews, the Orthodox.
- They used to take them outside on street.
- They used to make them prayer on street and laugh about it.
- They used to cut off this--
- how do you call it?
- Payots.
- Payots.
- They used to cut off make funny things of the beard.
- And they usually took the clothes
- off and making clowns of them.
- It's awful, awful, how they humiliated these people,
- specially Orthodox people.
- They used to push them to certain special works.
- And this happened day after day after day.
- And like I said, most of them, each day people just disappear.
- You never know what's happened.
- Or just came in, just pulled a gun,
- and shoot whoever he wants it.
- I remember one time when they were taking transport,
- there was a woman with seven kids.
- They used to beat the woman and beat each kid after her,
- about six kids after her, and put her out.
- It's just things you--
- it's hard even to forget what they did.
- And every little thing you told them they just pulled their gun
- and shoot.
- Beat you, beat you, they humiliate you,
- they start calling you name.
- You used to tell him, yes, sir, no, sir.
- Nothing you could do about it.
- What could you do about it?
- Just made people out like puppet.
- It was just horrible, horrible what they did to people.
- And then a lot of people, you know, losing their temper.
- But each time you lose the temper, they shot you.
- What did you get?
- It just seemed like in today's life,
- somebody pulls a gun if you don't do what he tells you.
- What do you prove with it?
- You can do anything you got to do.
- And my case it was I always was afraid.
- Because whatever I did, they took 30 people, most of them
- your family.
- Who could take a chance like this?
- There were some people, I remember,
- they was in concentration camp, a man escaped.
- Because of him, they took up his family, they killed.
- And then they took 50 people whom they didn't like, killed.
- And each time they killed, they may pick up [NON-ENGLISH]
- on street.
- Everybody has to stand and watch them.
- I remember once they brought a group of people.
- They caught them with something they didn't like.
- They just made the same people make a hole in ground.
- And then they told him go in in ground.
- And they started shooting.
- And then they called the closest family to bury them.
- How could you live like this?
- It's awful.
- It's not way.
- If you would talk about what the torture they did,
- and the torture of people, that day-by-day things
- like this happen.
- And nobody could do about it.
- Like I mentioned, I remember people
- used to leave their own kids and run away from kids.
- Where did you hear a case like this, that a woman is
- going to leave her kid.
- Most of them, mother went with the kids.
- I remember there were cases that, when they took people out
- from ghetto, they told them to leave their kids.
- Some didn't.
- They just shoot her right away with the kid.
- The rest, they throw the kids in room.
- It's awful.
- And they took off on each one's with the kids
- and just took them out and shoot them, just babies.
- Ways it was, like Germans said, you know,
- they tried to convince their people
- they're not fighting anybody.
- They're just fighting the Jew.
- This was war against the Jews.
- That's what they advertised.
- Hitler even, one time I remember,
- he said that if he be in power another few years,
- if he sees a Jew once, that he's going to take his head
- and bow to him.
- Then I remember one time they were planning
- to send the Jews to Madagascar.
- Then they tried to send the Jews to Israel.
- But the English wouldn't lose their colony.
- Wouldn't let them in.
- Then they decide they get rid of them this way.
- And I made a mistake.
- Because I never believed in it.
- I just couldn't believe in my deepest mind
- that any person, cultural person, they were [INAUDIBLE]
- culture, the Germans, very smart, intelligent,
- [INAUDIBLE] people, that they would do something like this.
- And after war, nobody didn't know anything.
- And the biggest joke about is the Austrians
- said they didn't know they did anything.
- Well, I even go say about it, I even have a joke about it.
- You know, when they got to the table after war,
- Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, used to say we're not guilty.
- I'm Austrian.
- And Goebbel said, well, I'm going to jump to water.
- I can swim.
- The other one said I am go jump from a plane.
- The other one is go--
- said I'm going to blow my brains out.
- Now they ask Hitler a question.
- What are you going to do about it?
- He said I'm not guilty.
- I'm Austrian.
- And that's a good joke about it.
- And then declare Austria not guilty.
- But Austria was just guilty like the Germans.
- And if the people say they didn't know about it,
- each one of them did it.
- Now I'll be honest about it.
- You know, in each crowd, you have people, they good.
- For instance, like in Poland, when the German came in,
- when said you Austrian, if the Jews didn't come out,
- Pollocks point us out.
- This is Jew.
- This is Jew.
- This is Jew.
- This is Jew.
- In French, when he came in and told them Jews out,
- when the Jews start coming out, French people
- start coming out with them.
- And then when they start coming out, all of them,
- he asked him a question.
- If you don't quit, I shoot you.
- And he said you have to shoot us all.
- Because we're all French people.
- It's just up to environment, where you lived with.
- Now then you will see all Pollocks were this way.
- No.
- After the war, my wife came home and a Polish old man,
- Lithuanian house, he didn't touch her hand and helped her.
- But they were very small percentage of them.
- What were some of the things you saw in the camp
- that you didn't tell us about?
- In concentration camp what I did?
- Well, I told you what I saw, most of them in Auschwitz
- where they did.
- I saw how they were making experiments on people.
- What kind of experiments?
- Oh, like, I never saw.
- Just what I saw in the laboratory I work.
- They made experiment on people.
- They make connection.
- They try all serums and things.
- A lot of people died on it.
- About the worst thing I saw was just once about this operation
- where I saw they did.
- Where they tried to connect her hand to her elbow?
- Yeah, that's the really thing.
- But I know that they try a lot of serums,
- a lot of things on people.
- And I saw people crippled.
- And I saw people change.
- And most of them dying.
- Did you see children?
- No, I didn't see children there at all.
- No, I didn't see bring children there
- in this particular concentration camp,
- in this particular, just adults.
- A matter of fact, children, when they brought it,
- they killed them instantly.
- You didn't see children in Auschwitz.
- Children were not allowed in Auschwitz.
- A child came in there in Auschwitz, shoot them.
- Because there they were just keeping person
- in the place where I was, was a place
- where they used the people to perform certain work,
- could be useful for army.
- And most time I spend there.
- Now when they took me from Auschwitz to Gross-Rosen,
- there were no children anymore.
- All children were killed.
- Killing children, I just saw in ghetto.
- And I saw it in first concentration we were.
- [INAUDIBLE] were very few.
- Because they didn't give them permission to capture them.
- And if they caught, they shoot.
- But most killing of children, they used to do in ghetto.
- There was no different children or adults.
- They killed children or adults, a woman, man.
- Doesn't matter.
- Whomever they could, they beat, they tortured, they killed.
- It's just like I told you.
- So one time, in ghetto, caught a kid
- and knocked it over the wall.
- Throw it on floor.
- There were many instances that they killed them.
- They just kill for fun, now let me put it this way.
- It was the Germans.
- And who did it?
- The most intelligent people in the whole world, Germans.
- You know that before war you could go all over the world
- with the German language.
- That was English.
- That's right.
- Right?
- Am I right?
- I gotta get back to work.
- OK?
- Now there were a lot of instances
- happen what other people lived through.
- But I'm telling what I saw.
- [COUGHS]
Overview
- Interviewee
- William Schiff
- Interviewer
- James Pennebaker
Alan Griffin - Date
-
interview:
1991 October 22
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
2 videocassettes (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Europe--Personal narratives. Confiscations. Forced labor. Jewish ghettos--Poland--Kraków. Medical ethics--Moral and ethical aspects. Escapes. World War, 1939-1945--Concentration camps--Liberation. Displaced persons. Emigration and immigration--United States.
- Geographic Name
- Kraków (Poland) Poland (Territory under German occupation, 1939-1945) Poland--History--Soviet occupation, 1939-1941.
- Personal Name
- Schiff, William.
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
Dallas Holocaust Museum, Center for Education and Tolerance
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- James Pennebaker and Alan Griffin of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies conducted the interview with William Schiff on October 22, 1991. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History branch received the tapes of the interview from the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies on July 10, 1992. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the interview by transfer from the Oral History branch in February 1995.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:09:09
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn506622
Additional Resources
Transcripts (2)
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- Request Copy
- See Rights and Restrictions
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- This record is digitized but cannot be downloaded online.
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Also in Oral history interviews of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies
Contains interviews with 31 Holocaust survivors in the Dallas, TX area
Date: 1985-1992
Oral history interview with Helen Biderman
Oral History
Helen Biderman (née Prengler), born April 21, 1928 in Luków, Poland, describes her four brothers; her parents; growing up in Poland; the chaos of the beginning of the war; the roundup of Jews by the German Army on October 5 and the subsequent execution near a church; the deportations from Luków; going with her family to a nearby town; being forced to live with several families; the winter of 1940; her parents hiding while she stayed with an aunt; being moved to a ghetto with the other Jews; hiding with her family in an underground space during the deportations; being discovered by a Polish fireman hiding in various places; staying for seven to eight weeks in her grandfather's underground bunker with 17 members of her family; hiding with a German woman who owned a brick factory; being found by the Germans and the death of her younger brother; life in the ghetto from the end of 1942 to May 2, 1943; the attempt by some Jews to form a resistance group; falling ill with typhus; being attacked by a German Shepherd; hiding outside the ghetto; her parents reopening their business and staying until April 1945; moving to Katowice, Poland for a year then going to Munich, Germany for three years; her family getting papers to move to the United States; getting married and living in New Orleans, LA; how the Holocaust brought her family closer together; and her feelings about Germans.
Oral history interview with Max Biderman
Oral History
Max Biderman, born February 11, 1917 in Luków, Poland, describes his family; growing up in Poland; the beginning of the war; his family hiding during the roundups; the execution of Jews by the German Army; being caught with two of his brothers and forced to walk to Siedlce, Poland, where they were put in jail; being marched to a town 20 kilometers away and escaping with one of his brothers; returning home and hearing of the deportations to Treblinka; the creation of a ghetto in 1942 during the New Year; hiding during a deportation and the death of one of his brothers; living in the ghetto; working in a German factory; avoiding another deportation by hiding in the woods; contracting typhoid; witnessing the shooting of one of his brothers; being hidden by a Polish couple; hiding with several other Jewish boys; being hidden by a Polish farmer named Bronkevitch; defending themselves against a group of 40 armed men (possibly the Armia Krajowa); hiding in the forest; his group taking revenge on a farmer who denounced hidden Jews; reading newspapers; the arrival of the Russian Army; returning to Luków; finding the Prengler family (he later married Helen Prengler, RG-50.045*0001); going to Brest-Litovsk (Brześć Litewski), Poland after the war; going to Katowice, Poland then Munich, Germany; immigrating to the United States in September 1949; his children and grandchildren; not sharing his story with his children until recently; visiting Poland in 1984 and showing his children where he hid; the importance and danger of having a gun during the occupation; and testifying against a war criminal.
Oral history interview with Ala Danziger
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Oral history interview with Martin Donald
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Oral history interview with Bela Einhorn
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Oral history interview with Marie Fauss
Oral History
Marie Fauss (née Lucet Marie Selek), born August 25, 1925 at Pont-à-Mousson, France, describes her Catholic mother and Jewish father; visiting the synagogue with her father when she was four years old; her education; beginning college when she was 12 years old; her father reading Mein Kampf and warning her of Hitler’s intentions; her family’s Jewish and Catholic friends; her father deciding she should attend Catholic church; the invasion of Poland; the scarcity of coal; being out of college in July 1940; being warned by an Italian of the impending invasion; her fear of the Germans; fleeing with an Italian family south on minor roads; seeing an exodus of people moving south as they arrive in Nancy, France; being in Nancy during a bombardment; the German restrictions during the occupation; the taking of a census; the round ups and deportations; rumors about concentration camps; taking in other refugees; collaborators; becoming silent and withdrawn; being required to take German at school; being interrogated six times and having their house searched by the Germans; being beaten by interrogators; her belief that the mayor betrayed her to the Germans; being told to report to the town square to be sent to a work camp; being taken to a farm that produced food for a concentration camp in Lorraine; being taken out of the camp after three months with the help of her father; contracting tuberculosis; the arrival of American troops in September 1944; the Germans burning the college and hospital; how the war affected her; and getting married in 1945.
Oral history interview with Max Glauben
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Oral history interview with Bela Goldberg
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Oral history interview with Henry Goldberg
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Oral history interview with Alli Itzkowitz
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Oral history interview with Mike Jacobs
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Oral history interview with Miriam Joseph
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Oral history interview with Abram Kozolchyk
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Oral history interview with Leo Laufer
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Oral history interview with Helen Neuberg
Oral History
Helen Neuberg (née Chaja Miemacher), born December 12, 1926 in Ostrowice, Poland (possibly Ostrowiec in powiat sokołowski), describes her Orthodox family; growing up Jewish and her interactions with Gentiles; the German invasion; the restrictions placed on Jews; people being killed for breaking the curfew; her experiences in the ghetto; hiding during the deportation of her family, all of whom perished in Treblinka; witnessing acts of brutality and cruelty; obtaining false papers; moving to Warsaw, Poland; finding work as a waitress in Stuttgart, Germany, where she lived in fear of discovery; being aided by a Jewish American solider after the war, who assisted her in finding relatives in North America; meeting her husband, who was a survivor of concentration camps, in a displaced persons camp; and immigrating to the United States with her child and husband.
Oral history interview with Jack Oran
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Oral history interview with Sol Prengler
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Oral history interview with Lori Price
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Oral history interview with Ann Salfield
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Oral history interview with Rosalie Schiff
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Oral history interview with William Schiff
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Oral history interview with Jack Stein
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Oral history interview with Erica Stein
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Oral history interview with Manya Wozobski
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Oral history interview with Greta Zetley
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Oral history interview with Leon Zetley
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Oral history interview with James Hirsch
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Oral history interview with Alegre Tevet
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Oral history interview with Zohn Milam
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Oral history interview with Eva Nanasi
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