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Oral history interview with William Schiff

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1991.A.0112.21 | RG Number: RG-50.045.0021

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    Oral history interview with William Schiff
    Transcript
    Good morning, Mr. Schiff.
    My name is Irv Geidel.
    And this is Heidi Hampel.
    And on behalf of the Holocaust Center of Dallas,
    I want to thank you for agreeing to join us for this interview.
    It's my pleasure.
    OK, the first thing I want to ask you about
    is where you were born, what your name
    is, where you were born, and where you were born in Europe?
    Well, I was born in Krakow, Poland.
    It's one of the oldest cities in this country,
    on December 20, 1918.
    OK, and your full name is William Paul--
    William Paul Schiff, yes.
    William Paul Schiff.
    That's the way I was named.
    I have two names.
    OK.
    How many were there in your family?
    I have parents, one brother, and one sister.
    My parents, just like me, they married young.
    How old were your parents when they married?
    Oh I think beginning 20s, or not even 20.
    I think my mother was a teenager, just like my wife
    when I married her, she was a teenager.
    I don't think I was barely 20.
    And how old was your wife?
    When I married her?
    Yeah.
    17.
    OK.
    And you said that there were three children in your family.
    Where did you come in the line?
    I was the second.
    I was the middle child.
    You were the middle child.
    My sister was the oldest one.
    Then I was about 1 and 1/2 younger than her.
    And then I have a brother which one was 1 and 1/2 years younger
    than me.
    We were just three kids.
    And that's all my parents had.
    And we were raised together.
    OK, and I want to just ask you some
    questions now, so that I can find out
    what life was like before the war for you
    and your family in Krakow.
    For instance, what did you father do for a living?
    Well you see, when war broke out,
    my daddy was somewhere on 40s, 40, 42, or 44.
    My mother was about a year or two younger than him.
    My dad was a barber, beautician.
    He has his own shop.
    As far I was remembering when I was a kid, he was on his own.
    When I was little, I remember he was doing a job.
    But when I was starting to be a teenager, he was on his own.
    He had his own shop?
    Shop.
    And when I was a boy, about around 13
    when I finished my public school, I went to work,
    to help out the family.
    I was the only one in our family who was capable to work.
    And I was kind of very good in making money.
    I don't know how should I say it.
    You had a good head for business.
    Well, I work in this time, not in business.
    I was too young.
    But I enjoyed it, and then they needed help.
    So what kind of things did you do to make money?
    Well, when I finished school, I took a job in a store,
    repairing bicycles.
    And in evening, I used to go to high school.
    I mean I didn't--
    I was kind of occupied all the time.
    Because I used to work eight hours in the morning.
    And after school I went home for an hour, and evening to school
    for four hours.
    Well, how old were you when you first
    started working outside of the house, and making money?
    14 years old.
    14 years old.
    Not even 14.
    Yeah.
    Now you said that you were the one.
    The only one child who really worked.
    OK, why didn't your sister work?
    Well, she was the oldest child.
    She was the only girl.
    And she was the only granddaughter
    my grandfather has.
    And they spoiled her.
    And she was a very smart girl as far as I remember.
    By 20, she has already a degree of pharmacist.
    She was jumping three, four grades each year.
    She was an extremely smart girl.
    And she had a degree in pharmacy?
    Pharmacy.
    Drugs?
    At about 20 or 21, or 22 when the war broke out.
    That's why she got--
    How many years was she older than you?
    1 and 1/2 years, and she was kind of the idol of my parents.
    She was smart.
    She used to play theater when she was a girl, about six,
    seven years old.
    I remember when I was a kid, I used to be jealous of her
    because they favored her, because she was the only one
    girl, and she was the smartest.
    The smartest, she was bright.
    She in business, I don't know.
    But in school, she was very bright.
    So she was able to achieve a lot.
    In school.
    In school.
    Yes.
    And you were achieving a lot outside of school.
    Just working, yes.
    OK.
    Well, as a matter of fact, when I was a boy 14,
    I started working to help out my parents to send her to college.
    And she went to college in Krakow?
    Well, yeah.
    In Europe in this time, high school,
    you paid like college really.
    It was very expensive.
    OK.
    And I was the one who was helping.
    Now, my younger brother was just a quiet--
    well, let me put it this way.
    I was ambitious and my sister was ambitious.
    But this boy was different.
    He was just a quiet boy following
    parents, following everybody.
    And how many years were you older than him?
    1 and 1/2 year.
    So there was a year and a half between all of the children.
    Approximately, about one month's difference.
    We're about same age raised together.
    Could you describe for me, what was Krakow like?
    What kind of a town was that?
    What do you remember about that?
    Well, the ways I used to remember it before war,
    but I changed my mind now after being
    there back after 40 years, this is a very historic city.
    Which each time was a war, they give it up without a shot.
    They have a castle, historic castle,
    where they believe a dinosaur used to live, just as history,
    and all Polish kings used to live in centuries back.
    Of course, like they taught us in school, Poland used to be,
    was a big country, and has a big history.
    Which I didn't know, because I was born after the first world
    war.
    In 1918.
    '18, the war ended in 1918, and I was born after the war.
    Did your father serve in the army?
    No, not exactly.
    They never took him.
    He was in this, he was just like I would say,
    like you have a doctor today.
    He was a felczer, he was a barber.
    And he used to know how to-- they used to have medical--
    I don't know how to express myself in English.
    He used to have many ways in curing people,
    like they used to put this bańki,
    I don't know how you say it in English.
    Bunkers?
    No, I don't know how you say it in English.
    And my dad used to good in it.
    And they kept him back to help out just like a nurse.
    He was better than nurse.
    He was good in it.
    OK.
    So he was in war.
    He was in army, but he never saw the front.
    He was always in back of it.
    That's the way I remember he explained it
    to me when I was a kid.
    OK.
    So he was like a medic, a medic aid.
    Medic aid, yes, yes exactly.
    Just I didn't know the expression.
    OK.
    And they never sent him in front,
    they kept him behind when they brought their sick people
    or wounded people.
    Then he took care of it.
    OK.
    What I'm telling you about it, it's
    just ways he explained to me when I was a kid.
    Sure.
    I understand.
    What was Krakow like?
    Was it a big town, small town?
    Oh, in this time in Poland, used to be
    the second or the third largest city in the country.
    And it has about 180,000 population.
    But the life was beautiful.
    We children, we didn't have much,
    but we have a beautiful life, where
    I was a very advanced boy.
    When I was 15 years old, already I was well dressed.
    I used to go out.
    I used to be on my own.
    The life I used to like, I never liked sport.
    But I enjoyed nightlife, dancing, parties,
    things like this.
    And I was good in it and I enjoyed it.
    So you were successful socially?
    Socially, yeah.
    You had friends, and did you have girlfriends?
    Well, not one, I used to date a lot when I was a kid.
    But I was too young.
    Did you live in a ghetto?
    Was there a ghetto in Krakow?
    Yes, the ghetto started in 1940.
    I mean when you were growing up and you were 14.
    Did the Jews live--
    No.
    There wasn't exactly like a ghetto.
    It was just like you would say South Dallas now,
    for the Black people or like the Harlem in New York.
    There was a part of town where the Jews used to live.
    So there was just a section, a Jewish section.
    A Jewish section, Kazimierz we used to call it.
    That's where I was raised.
    But you didn't have to live there?
    No, I didn't have to.
    People lived there by choice?
    By choice, right.
    Exactly, my parents lived in at this time, we didn't know much.
    We didn't travel a lot.
    As far I was until war broke out, I was about 19,
    as far as I was, was but around 100 kilometers,
    about 60 miles away from my home.
    We never travel.
    We could never afford it.
    Matter of fact, my dad was the one
    who used to be better situated than the whole family.
    And we couldn't afford more.
    Can you imagine what a life was?
    They was a section of people who were really poor,
    who didn't have much, 100 zloty, just like $100 today
    was a fortune then.
    And I didn't know much, the way I was raised.
    And from the time I was a kid, 14,
    I have the ability to go out and work.
    I always made more money than also my friends working.
    Always kind of ways I sneak in, and sneak out,
    I have ability for it.
    I don't know, how would I say it.
    Like at this time, some adults used to work for 25 bucks.
    We used to have zloty, but I would say bucks
    that you understand a week.
    And I used to make 50.
    I have uncles which were in their 20s,
    and they were not even making the money I did, working.
    But I always sold.
    I always have ability for it.
    OK, now which uncles were they?
    Were they relatives of your mother or relatives
    of your father?
    Just my dad didn't have relatives at all.
    My dad has two brothers, which were living in Buenos Aires.
    They died now.
    I never met these people.
    But I have a family from my mother's side.
    And were they also living in Krakow?
    They were living-- we live close together from each other, about
    a few houses, I mean a block.
    The houses there were different like here.
    Nobody has a house.
    We all lived in apartment.
    Apartment buildings, one on top of the other?
    That's the way they were.
    There were three-- the biggest one
    was about three floors average.
    And my mother's relative, she has about two, four brothers.
    Two were my age, and two my mother's age.
    And you said you had a grandfather also living?
    Yeah, well I didn't said I have him living.
    I said that my sister was his idol, when he was living.
    But the war broke out, he died.
    He wasn't living anymore.
    And did he die before the war?
    Oh, he died a long time before war, yes.
    And he lived in Krakow?
    Krakow, yeah.
    That's the only one grandfather I remember.
    When did the war break out for you?
    I think it was in September 1939.
    Can you tell us what happened?
    Well we have an order, the government
    came to give the order, all men leave home, leave women.
    And we were all young.
    I was then about 20, I think.
    My baby brother was 18.
    And my dad was about 43, all were young people.
    And we have the order to leave the women and go.
    I wouldn't do it.
    Where were you ordered to go?
    Just away from the Germans, because the German
    was pouring in.
    German was coming from the West.
    And they told us to keep running east,
    in direction to Russian border.
    I wouldn't go.
    But then my mother's brother came in.
    He took a younger brother.
    His brother is here now in Texas.
    I brought him here.
    He's my age.
    But the older one brother, my mother's brother,
    he was about 12 years older than me.
    He came in, and he insisted we go.
    I wouldn't go.
    Then my daddy forced me.
    My mother ordered me.
    And I just took my dad, my brother, and we went with him.
    This was about, like I told I was later,
    two days before the German marching.
    They came from Czechoslovakia.
    And we lived close to Czechoslovak border,
    very close to the biggest mountain in Europe, Karpats.
    Where did you go?
    In direction to Russia.
    Lwow, they used to call, Lemberg, the direction of Lwow,
    which one today is part of Russia.
    Russia took it.
    And this way, we walked about around three weeks.
    Germany were bombarding.
    When war started, Poland had maybe three planes, no army.
    I was in army when I was running with my father,
    some officer came to me, and give me
    a jacket, army jacket, and a gun,
    which I never had a gun in my hand.
    I didn't have ammunition.
    And that's the way I was running with my dad and my brother
    and the two uncles.
    How did you feel when this was?
    Well, it was awful, for instance,
    they were just like you see people used to--
    we didn't have cars.
    Most of them will have this buggies,
    just like here in Western movies.
    And people were traveling.
    And there was a lot of this wagon
    and German was-- wherever you turned
    you saw dead bodies, because German was bombarding.
    There were thousands of planes, thousands of planes,
    I don't even know.
    German was very motorized, and Poland didn't have nothing.
    And each day, they were killing a lot of people.
    Around me, I just remember one time,
    about I would say just like from here to this corner
    there, it hit a wagon with 20 people, killed them all.
    And I was standing around.
    It was awful.
    I can't even explain what a feeling it was.
    I was just a boy, 20 years old.
    And then I was taking care of my father, you know.
    He just run like a little child, scared.
    What was his reaction?
    Awful.
    He just cried.
    I took care of him.
    As I'm wondering sometime, watching my kids,
    how could they take it.
    I just don't know.
    You mean if this happened in this country,
    how would they take it?
    How would they take it?
    Just like in today's life, they're
    all working, making good money, but you still
    have to help them.
    It just doesn't make sense.
    Yeah, I understand what you mean.
    Yeah.
    So what happened next?
    You are on the road.
    We're on the road like this about three weeks.
    I see a lot of people killed.
    And then we came to almost Lemberg, Lwow,
    and then Russia came from other side.
    You see beginning of war, Germany hit us from west.
    But Russia went with Germany together there.
    I don't know whether you know the history.
    Yeah, I do.
    At the beginning of war.
    Yes.
    And Russia hit us from other side, and then--
    but it took about three weeks we were almost in Lemberg.
    Russian army came in, and told us raise hands.
    We raise hands.
    And they just let us go.
    And said, go home.
    Now a lot of people wouldn't go back home.
    But I took my dad and my brother, went back home.
    What happened to your uncles?
    Well, they went with us.
    It's just they were separate.
    We were separate, what was the reason you see,
    Polish people were very anti-Semitic.
    And each time they saw a well-dressed Jew,
    they show him to a German.
    And I was a well-dressed boy.
    And my uncle wasn't.
    He had just work cloths, not to be bothered recognized
    being a Jew, he took his brother and went away by himself,
    and left me with my dad.
    So everybody to himself.
    That's the way I marched back home.
    I don't know.
    It took me another week or two.
    I don't know.
    Did you experience antisemitism in Poland before the war?
    Well, when I was born, well I was never a Polack.
    I was a Jew.
    You know, wherever you went, they ask you
    what are you, Polish or Jewish?
    That's the way I was raised and born.
    And that's the way I know I didn't know the difference.
    I didn't know that it existed anything else.
    It was from time I was born, that's the way I saw it.
    Then I remember before the war, used to be a president,
    [PERSONAL NAME].
    After him, came another one which one got very friendly
    with the Germans.
    And they start beating Jews in school.
    They beat up my brother, younger brother.
    And he didn't finish college.
    He just quit it.
    See, I was working to get them both to college.
    Now, my sister finished because she
    finished before war broke out.
    But my brother didn't.
    And then he became a barber and worked with my daddy.
    See, somebody has to sacrifice to work to pay the bills.
    You were the one.
    And I did it.
    Yes.
    They didn't ask me.
    I just did it.
    Were you ever beaten?
    Well, when I came back home, Germans
    started taking out people to work, just to degradate you,
    to--
    how would you say it, just make jokes out of you,
    laugh from you.
    They used to put us to cleaning streets.
    To humiliate you.
    Humiliate, yes.
    And there was an order that each week everybody has to go twice,
    starting from 18 years old, which means my brother went
    twice, I went twice.
    And twice a week, I went for my father.
    I wouldn't let him go.
    What did you have to do twice a week?
    Oh, whatever they told you.
    Just, I'm sorry.
    It's OK.
    I get emotional.
    Your tissue is right over there.
    Clean streets.
    They took me, there was a mountain,
    hit mountains, and move the rocks.
    Just whatever, just humiliate you all the time.
    How long did that last?
    Oh, until they closed us up in ghetto.
    Now before, it start even before they start putting us to work.
    How you say it?
    [NON-ENGLISH] work.
    This means, you have to work, but you are not paid for it.
    You mean like slave labor?
    Slave labor, yeah.
    And they found a job for me in nail factory.
    I always volunteered.
    They tried.
    They came after my dad.
    But I wouldn't let him go.
    I always volunteer for him.
    Excuse me.
    Take your time.
    We have plenty of time.
    You're having feelings right now.
    What are you having feelings about?
    I'm very emotional.
    About your father?
    Well.
    About the whole thing.
    It comes back.
    I was very attached to my father.
    It was a very close family.
    So it was hard on your family and you.
    Well, I'll get over with it.
    And then I start working in this nail factory.
    I used to go out almost each day.
    They used to pick us up in cars, just like slave laborers,
    and brought us back in.
    And then in '40, they decided some Jews
    have to leave Krakow, and move away wherever they want to.
    And some, they give us permission to stay.
    They made a ghetto in a part of town and told us to move there.
    Describe the ghetto.
    What did the ghetto look like?
    Well, just picked up a small part of town
    on site of the city.
    Now the city, I used to live just like here Dallas, and Oak
    Cliff.
    It was a river.
    And we used to live, the Jewish section was on this side river,
    not just like in Dallas, not in Oak Cliff, you see?
    OK.
    So it would be--
    From other side.
    Yes, OK.
    They used to call it Podgorze, Krakow and Podgorze.
    And then they moved to this other part of town.
    They took a part of town, about around three streets,
    and about seven, eight blocks long.
    And they close up with walls.
    Were they high walls?
    High walls, yes.
    Oh, about around eight feet.
    Eight feet, I don't know, maybe even nine, who knows?
    Then on top of them, they put glass, pieces of broken glass,
    that you cannot go over it.
    And by that day, made two doors from one corner
    and the other corner, and Polish police
    used to watch us under the supervision of German.
    So--
    See I never have feeling to being Polish,
    because of that circumstances.
    And after war, after I moved to this country
    and I saw that if I was kind of amazed about this, the ways
    the Black people used to live, because at the time
    I came here, they used to be place for Blacks and whites.
    Where you see, I just couldn't get over it,
    because this remind me always my past.
    But then I saw the freedom we have here.
    I just don't realize what I was living it.
    But I was never a free man.
    You mean in Poland, you were never free?
    In Poland, now, I was not--
    I was never Polish.
    You weren't.
    Here, I'm an American first.
    And you have a--
    My religion is Jewish.
    But there I was Jewish, not Polish.
    See the difference?
    So you weren't recognized as a citizen.
    No, for army, yes, but privileges, no.
    Could you vote?
    You didn't vote like here.
    They told you to do it.
    And you did it.
    And this was-- this was different.
    Everything was told to you.
    And if you were against it, you couldn't be against it.
    Because you will end up in prison.
    And this was a free country.
    We have a democratic president, which one
    the marshal of the army, he used to tell the president
    everything.
    He was a dictator.
    And he used to tell the president what to do.
    And that's the way I was raised.
    I didn't know the difference.
    I was born this way.
    OK.
    How long did you live in the ghetto?
    In ghetto, we were from 1940 till '42.
    See, they closed us up.
    They took my dad's store.
    And then they-- no, they start take away
    from all Jews, used to take away everything.
    He signed up the store to a man which
    would work for him 10 years, and put him in charge.
    Was that man Jewish or Polish?
    No, Polish, just happened this one was Polish.
    But if he would be Jewish, he couldn't sign it up to him,
    because a Jew couldn't own anything.
    Well, I tell you another story.
    I came back after war.
    Right now, and found him in this store.
    And he said, sorry.
    I love you, but god the store is mine.
    I paid your daddy for it.
    And that's what you received after the war from the Polacks.
    I just walked out.
    What could you do?
    This is what happened after war.
    You went back there after the war?
    Yeah, well, now let me go and tell you about it later.
    Let me go back where we started.
    OK.
    When you were living in-- when you got into the ghetto,
    did your whole family go into the ghetto or what?
    Whole family, brother, sister, my mother, just my parents,
    and my brother, sister.
    So your whole family stayed together?
    Stayed there.
    Stayed there, and we got two small rooms, very little rooms,
    just like closets.
    And we lived there, the whole family.
    Now, and we couldn't make a living.
    Let me volunteer and tell you the story.
    Yes.
    We couldn't make a living.
    At this time wasn't food enough.
    Somebody has to go out from ghetto,
    you see we used to wear these bands.
    And somebody has to go out to smuggle food in.
    Well, I made a decision.
    I'm going to do it.
    And what I did, I used to buy off the Polish policemen.
    The first time, I went out with my mother.
    Well, I have to start another story.
    How did it happen?
    You see, I met my wife after I came back to Poland in war.
    She was just then about 15.
    I was about 20, 19.
    And we met.
    We started dating.
    And then when they liquidated Jews in Krakow,
    and moved them in ghetto, my wife,
    she was my girlfriend then.
    She didn't have a permission with her mother to stay there.
    Her father wasn't with her.
    He escaped same time I did, but he never came back.
    He reached Russia.
    I didn't.
    And she was alone with her mother.
    She was the oldest one.
    She was 15.
    She has a sister about 13, and a little brother 10 years old.
    And I met her then.
    And well, I started dating.
    This was early.
    You see, I was an advanced boy.
    I was dating older people, older women.
    I just don't know how to go back to it, and I married a kid.
    She was a beautiful girl.
    And I just kind of went for it.
    I had to help them.
    That's where it started.
    And when they moved us to ghetto,
    her mother didn't have permission to go in there.
    She has to leave town.
    And I helped them.
    I moved him to a small town, to a small country close
    to the city where we lived.
    And I used to go out from ghetto visiting her.
    She used to take out the band by a policeman who
    used to visit her.
    And then I found out that they have market
    where they're selling chickens.
    Well, what do I know about chicken?
    I just came home and talk my mother in
    to go out with me one time.
    And she went with me.
    And we bought some chickens, and we smuggled them in, in ghetto.
    And we sold them, and we made a little profit.
    We have a chicken left, you see that profit
    was the chicken left.
    How we were doing it, money didn't have value at all.
    We just took all the eggs, clothes,
    whatever was in value then, and we traded in.
    Everything was kind of black market.
    But it wasn't, because it was all in trading
    approximate in value what they figured out.
    You understood?
    Yes, to trade.
    To trade, yeah.
    Everything was kind of like a black market.
    But it wasn't really, because we didn't pay.
    We just traded in.
    But the hardest part was to smuggling
    in by of the policemen, Polish police on that,
    because that's the people were afraid of.
    And then this was a way, about around
    I would say about three miles, which one I have to walk.
    We walked.
    But first time when I went out with my mother, I did it.
    The next day, I decided I go by myself.
    I wouldn't let my mother go with me.
    And I brought chicken, and I smuggled him in.
    How?
    Well, want me tell you the story?
    Yes.
    She sewed off a few sections from material, and I put,
    I smuggling about 4 or 5 chicken one time.
    I put each one in a sack.
    And bended, on me all around, and put an old junky coat
    on me.
    And I was walking like a junk man.
    Then when I came, I use first time I went out,
    I took my younger brother with me.
    I come close to the ghetto.
    Then left him in some door from another building
    with the chicken, and came by and bought off the policeman.
    And then, because I wouldn't take chances
    with everything, and with my brother
    especially I wouldn't take chances,
    and then when I bought him off, I just
    went back, took my brother, took the chicken,
    and smuggled it in.
    And that's the way we made a living.
    I mean this, I was doing it, we are in ghetto almost two years.
    It's a funny thing.
    I was doing it two years to save them.
    They all dead, and I was alive after the war.
    Isn't this funny?
    It's strange.
    Strange.
    I remember one time, I didn't come home in time.
    And this time I have my policeman.
    I bought him off before I left.
    I didn't want to take my brother.
    I didn't want nobody to take risk.
    I just did it on my own.
    Well, and I was supposed to be back 2 o'clock,
    and I showed up at around 6:00, 7:00.
    My mother, when I came there she turned gray in one
    day, after she saw me back by the door.
    Because if they catch me, it's dead.
    And next day, I just packed and went away,
    and she didn't said anything.
    What could she say?
    Somebody has to do it.
    Where were you going?
    Just on the market.
    I was visiting then, I was visiting my wife too.
    She wasn't my wife.
    She was my girlfriend then.
    And then they decided, after living in ghetto
    about around several months, they
    decided all Jews around area got to move to the ghetto.
    And I picked up my wife, mother with a little brother, sister,
    and her moved in.
    To the two rooms?
    No.
    To one room.
    I just found him a room.
    I figured out everything for them, helped her out with it.
    Where there were times she has some family,
    but everybody look for himself.
    Everybody had to take care of themselves by that time.
    Sure, at that time, it's a funny thing, how people too selfish.
    I don't know if it's really selfish,
    when there's life involved.
    I used to think they was selfish,
    but now I don't know anymore.
    See, you don't blame people for things
    they're doing when their life is on stake.
    And I went through this thing.
    It makes things different?
    Different, yeah.
    What happened at the end of the two years in 1942?
    Well, in 1942, they decided they liquidate.
    First, they starting-- before they starting,
    they starting evacuating Jews, which
    they used to take to the crematoriums,
    but we didn't know.
    On first transport, they took my mother and my dad.
    And they said, they send them to another place.
    You see?
    I used to have saved up money.
    I took-- my kids wouldn't do it.
    Give to them the last penny I have with me.
    She wouldn't take it.
    I wouldn't keep it.
    Then she was wondering how I got the money.
    And she ordered me.
    I loved my mother dearly.
    Take your time.
    OK.
    Here's some tissues over there, if you'd like to have some.
    It's all right.
    I get over.
    She ordered me to stay.
    That I have to stay and take care of my sister and brother.
    I did it.
    Because she wanted it this way.
    Where was she going?
    Well, they took her.
    They said they could move her to another place.
    My dad warned us that they're going to kill us.
    But I didn't believe him.
    I just didn't believe it's possible they
    can take so many people.
    I was very advanced at this time.
    I was about 20-some years old, then 21 or 22.
    I hated communism.
    And I didn't believe in communism.
    I never believed in communism, because you
    can't make people equal.
    It's impossible because of human nature.
    And my dad preferred communism.
    He said he'd rather go with them then towards Germany.
    And I-- I wouldn't listen.
    I said, he's not going to kill us.
    It's impossible.
    I just didn't believe that the must cultured people.
    The door from culture was Germany at this time.
    They were very advanced people.
    Who could believe they wouldn't do something like this?
    I feel guilty many years afterward about it.
    What did you feel guilty about?
    Because I didn't listen.
    To your father?
    He wanted to move to Russia.
    He wanted to escape to Russia.
    We have a chance, and I wouldn't listen.
    I said, no.
    I don't.
    I hate communism.
    And I hate it.
    I can't live in something I don't believe in it.
    Not just because I don't believe in communism
    is good in book, when you write.
    It sounds beautiful.
    But in life, it doesn't work.
    It will never work, because of human nature,
    because people aren't perfect.
    You can't make a perfect world.
    Just for instance, like we're living in a beautiful country,
    because of the beautiful thing people
    are taking advantage of it.
    It's the wildest jungle, the best beautiful country,
    but it's the wildest jungle.
    That's the way I see it.
    What happened to your mother and father?
    Well, they took them.
    She's supposed to write me a letter,
    never hear from him anymore.
    About a week later, they took my brother.
    And I have-- I have two cousins I
    used to take care of, and one of my cousins.
    And I let them go because, I just didn't have a way out.
    He said, he's going to take care of her.
    And I never hear from them anymore.
    And then passed several months, and we just
    realized that the people, we start
    thinking that the people are not living anymore
    that they killed him.
    And we were preparing ourselves to be killed, each one of us.
    Now, in the same week when they took my brother with my cousin,
    they took my wife's mother.
    They just give her paper to stay here alone,
    and she want to stay with me.
    And then I promised mother that she
    can leave her with me, that I'm going married her
    before we move in.
    And she was still a kid then.
    And in this condition, she decided she's going.
    And she went, and took the younger brother, the younger
    sister and brother, and left me with her.
    But still this was about a week later
    when they took my parents.
    And then we married.
    Where did they tell your mother and father
    that they were going?
    They're moving to another place.
    They don't know exactly where, but they let us know.
    The Jews cannot stay there.
    They move them around.
    Were these the Polish that moved him, or the Germans?
    The Germans moved, and the Polish convinced us
    that that the way they're doing, they were against us, Polish
    and German, they were all against us because we're Jews.
    What do I have?
    What do I know about politics.
    Was this 1942?
    This was in 1942, yes.
    Yes.
    What happened after that?
    I married.
    My wife then moved in with us.
    I stayed with my wife and my sister.
    My sister was left with me, because they
    took my brother with my cousin.
    And start this--
    I didn't have what to eat in the beginning.
    I couldn't get out from ghetto anymore.
    It was hard to get out.
    We start selling whatever we have to trade it in food.
    I lived like this several months.
    Then after they took my brother and my wife's parents,
    they made the ghetto smaller.
    They took 2/3 of it, send away a half people,
    and moved us in like, for instance, I
    was moved in with my wife, with my sister, two other women,
    and three men in one room.
    How we lived, don't even ask me?
    And that's the way we lived another six months or seven
    months.
    Then in 1942, they moved us to ghetto,
    the ghetto was moved in the same direction where my wife's
    mother used to live with her.
    But it was closer.
    It was still in Krakow city limits.
    There was an old cemetery.
    And on top of the cemetery, they built a concentration camp,
    which one they called Plaszow.
    Did you ever hear of it, Krakow, Plaszow?
    Just when I called you during the week.
    Yeah.
    And that's where they moved us.
    And then they moved us in barracks.
    I used to live with men.
    My wife with women, and my sister with other women.
    Each one separate.
    We just have to sneak in to see each other once a day.
    And this barrack we used to live about 100 people together.
    They were the shelves.
    The shelves, we were living on shelves.
    And this was in Krakow city limits?
    In Krakow city limits, but not in Krakow city.
    Not in city, just on--
    On the outskirts.
    Outskirts, just like--
    Richardson?
    Richardson is too close, like Plano.
    So it would be a matter of 10 miles maybe.
    No, you know today 10 miles in our living, it's close.
    But then even a mile was 1.5 kilometer.
    It was a long way.
    You see cities, Krakow used to be very small
    comparing to Dallas.
    Dallas is a huge city if it comes to territory.
    Population is small, but territory,
    it's almost I would say even it's bigger than New York
    City, Dallas with territory.
    Yes.
    Yeah.
    And--
    You were in Plaszow?
    In Plaszow.
    And there I couldn't get out.
    They built a little factory.
    I used to work in this little factory.
    My wife worked somewhere else.
    We used to sneak in, sneak out, to see each other.
    Did they keep the men and women separate,
    you couldn't see each other?
    We had to sneak out.
    Yeah.
    Well, I was a boy.
    I don't know I was always capable, be more than average,
    for instance, they made the Jewish police.
    You heard about it, which were taking care of Jews.
    And I never became a policeman because I couldn't do it.
    But I always have privileges from them.
    I was always-- I always have a way to get around.
    For instance, if I went in work, and my wife,
    they picked up people for any kind of work.
    If they picked up my wife, and I know about it,
    I just went and took out, they let
    me take her out, the Jewish police working then.
    Then they have to do.
    No, they didn't have to be a police,
    but somebody has to do it.
    And usually a good person couldn't do it.
    There was some rotten Jews too, you know?
    They did it.
    There are good Jews and there are bad Jews.
    Just like other people, that's right.
    And they did it.
    But I never been with them, but I could always buy myself off
    with them, you see?
    You knew you could always deal with them.
    Deal with them.
    I always have, for instance, every time
    that they touch my sister or her, I got them out of it.
    For instance, I have an accident one time.
    Well, I used to go from--
    I mentioned to you that I was working in this nail factory.
    They used to, when they moved us to this concentration camp,
    I used to-- after being there a few months,
    they start sending me back to this factory.
    Which means they took, and this time we
    have watchmen they were from Ukraine, they turned German.
    Did you hear about it?
    They did what?
    They were Ukrainian people which went with German,
    and Germany made especially army from the Ukrainian
    to work with them.
    No, I didn't know that there was a special division.
    Division, yeah.
    And most anti-Semitic countries in Europe,
    besides Poland, they were Ukrainian,
    Litwa, Łotwa, were Estonia, I don't
    know how you say it in English.
    Latvia.
    Latvia and Estonia, they hate Jews.
    Why?
    I don't know.
    I didn't live centuries back.
    I don't know.
    They just hate them.
    And it just happened, I was a Jew.
    And I still don't think it's nothing wrong
    being what you are, because you didn't ask for it.
    That's just the way it's happened.
    Not your fault.
    Well, but it's nothing wrong.
    I'm proud of being what I am.
    It's nothing wrong to be, just well,
    I am not too religious person, but people believe in God.
    They're saying that God knows what he is doing.
    They should respect what he is doing.
    If Got creates the world, then puts certain rules on it.
    See?
    I am not too religious.
    But well even, whether it is, if people believe in it.
    But they see people don't practice what they preach.
    They're not living up.
    They just believe in it, but they're not
    doing what they believe in it.
    They sent you back to the needle factory.
    And was it run by the Ukrainians?
    No.
    They were sent, they were not sending just me back.
    They send a group of young people.
    And I was one of them.
    We were watched by this Ukrainian army.
    They were taking us, just like prisoners.
    You see, they were taking us down.
    With rifles?
    With rifles.
    And in wagons or picked up in wagons, on cars.
    And took us down, and brought us back evening.
    But we were not paid for it.
    What were you making?
    Nails, nail factory.
    I don't know we were working with the machines
    to produce nails.
    It was so many years back.
    You mean like sewing needles?
    No nails for--
    Oh, nails.
    Nails.
    A nail factory.
    Nails, yeah well, my English is Chinese.
    A nail factory.
    Nails factory, yeah.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    And what's happened, well, like I
    said before, I went out there, I right now became a foreman.
    I just had the capability.
    I became a foreman.
    I could become the boss, but you see I was scared I wasn't good.
    Then you have to beat, and heat, and just I wasn't good for it.
    And I always tried to stay that I,
    to protect myself, but protect myself being a nice person.
    To do something what's wrong, I just couldn't.
    So you wanted to get yourself in a position
    where you could protect yourself,
    but you wouldn't have to--
    Hurt anybody.
    Hurt anyone in the process, OK.
    I always did.
    This mean I was kind of little foreman.
    Yes.
    And there in charge to us was one Polish engineer.
    And he must have been very anti-Semitic.
    He, each time somebody did something, he used to hit him.
    I watched him, and watched him, and watched him.
    And then I was a hero.
    I just couldn't take it anymore.
    And I came, approached him, and told him.
    Look here, why are you hitting him?
    You know he didn't do anything to you.
    Oh, he did wrong, and he started telling me,
    cussing on me, Jews.
    Just many different ways cussing on me, and said,
    you just better stay away because I break your neck.
    I didn't said nothing, walked out.
    Then this happened second time, and third time,
    and fourth time, he started threatening me.
    I said, well, you're no better than I am.
    They just putting big on you, like on me.
    And he said you dirty Jew.
    I said I'm just dirty Jew, like you a dirty Polack.
    And he raised a hand and slapped me.
    And I got mad.
    And I told him, you better don't hit me anymore.
    Because I will not let you get away with it.
    And after he hit me, I hit him back.
    And we start fighting.
    They called police.
    And everybody start fighting.
    They took us up for sabotage, and sabotage was dead.
    It was my fault, because I couldn't take it.
    Then they put us in line with about seven men,
    took us out, never happened that they brought anybody up
    that they don't shoot them right away.
    But my luck again, when they brought us up
    before they brought us, they brought about an hour
    before us 50 people.
    And they caught food, smuggling food.
    They shoot them all.
    Because they shoot them, they let
    us go, and put us to hard work.
    I don't know how would you say.
    What is this?
    I was a hero.
    Just luck.
    Somebody up there likes you.
    Well, as I see, when you young, you're foolish.
    You think you are a hero.
    But now, I see what a fool I was.
    But I just couldn't help myself.
    And I survived this too.
    They didn't do anything to me.
    They're supposed to beat us up, we're about 12 boys.
    When I came up, they know me there because I was a hero.
    They pushed me back.
    Then they beat first four or five, then
    the next one they hit, then the German went away.
    They just let me go.
    They didn't even hit me.
    But they put me in work, and I got away again with it.
    See, a lot of people will tell you that they were heroes.
    They did.
    I don't consider myself.
    It just happened.
    And like I said before, you don't have heroes, just fools.
    Because if a person told him there was something like this,
    it's just a fool.
    But being young, you're doing it,
    because you don't think much.
    That's my opinion.
    Well, maybe you didn't think.
    But maybe you had a lot of feelings.
    No, I was kind of jumpy for every little thing.
    I am a very sensitive person, very extremely sensitive,
    and I get hurt.
    I am disappointed about a lot of things today.
    See, I try to help a lot of people financially.
    I helped.
    But sometimes I ask myself, was it worth it?
    And then I'm telling myself another way,
    I'm not doing it for them.
    I do it for myself.
    To please myself that I did something good for a change,
    and if I am not good paid, I don't expect anything
    in return.
    Then I don't get hurt.
    That's the way I see life now.
    But then I was different.
    I was young.
    OK, should I still talk?
    I understand what you're saying.
    I am just volunteering, telling all my opinions.
    Well, you're telling me about your feelings,
    and how you look at life.
    On life, yeah.
    I think that's important.
    Yeah, that's the way I see life.
    And that's the way I see today's life.
    You know, just sometime I am wondering, you know.
    You're taking people, you try to help them.
    They nice how long they need you.
    But then when they reach a certain point, then they think,
    well, it's you owe them it.
    Then when you start, it's no way to quit it.
    But then I am asking myself, how fortunate
    I am that I'm always on giving side, not receiving.
    Well, you seem to have been able to do that
    throughout your life, which is--
    Oh, most of my life, yes.
    There were times I have a very, very hard time.
    OK, I understand.
    I reached a point now, I did pretty well now.
    I sacrificed a lot of things, I sacrificed
    a lot of in this country in beginning.
    I suffered.
    I was hungry in times when we have food,
    denying myself things to go somewhere, to get somewhere.
    But I accomplish a goal.
    I'm doing pretty well now.
    I'm very good off.
    How long did you stay in Plaszow?
    From 1942 till I think it was September '43.
    One day, they took me out, and I came back,
    and my wife was gone.
    I got furious.
    You went back where?
    To work.
    And after I came from work, they brought me back, she was gone.
    They brought you back to the barracks.
    To the barracks.
    I was furious.
    And I used to jump on everybody.
    I don't know how they didn't kill me then.
    I jumped on everybody, everybody, who was in my way.
    I got furious.
    I was young, and she was my life then.
    And then they start having another transport.
    They start sending out people.
    And there was a transport I thought
    is going in the same direction.
    I just jumped into it.
    Because you thought that you would catch up with her?
    That I catch up with her.
    Was it on the same day?
    Next day, second day.
    I just couldn't live there.
    I have a sister.
    I just never-- I don't know why I left her.
    I didn't thought about her anymore.
    I just got furious I just got--
    you reach a point in your life that you don't care anymore.
    And you weren't caring then.
    And then just I didn't have anything anymore.
    Well, I didn't even--
    I don't know how I couldn't think about my sister.
    I have her still there.
    What happened to her?
    I don't know.
    Now, it's another story I have forgotten to tell you.
    Let me go back to it.
    When they brought us up for the sabotage--
    Yes.
    I was expecting being killed.
    Yes.
    But then I could, there was a kapo,
    one from the Polish people tried to tuck me in,
    you don't even look Jewish.
    Who will know are you Jewish or not Jewish, just run!
    The doors are open, I'm going to close my eyes, run.
    But how could I?
    If I would escaped, whoever escaped, for one person
    they took up 50 people, and killed them.
    But first, the closest family of this person.
    And I have done then there my sister, my wife,
    and my mother--
    this was my mother's sister with three little kids, her husband,
    and then one of my uncles.
    How could I escape?
    I could.
    But I couldn't.
    And I know they're going to shoot me when I be back there.
    I even have one of the young men tried to escape,
    and I was scared.
    I fight with him, not to let him go.
    Because if one would go, they would take 50.
    They would take all of us.
    Us, I know that--
    I expected to be killed when I get there.
    Who could expect that they kill before us so many people?
    And that's the reason I came back.
    In ghetto, I have several chances.
    See, I went out.
    I didn't have to come back.
    But how could I?
    Who would feed my family?
    If it wasn't me, I was a kid, but this was my family.
    Yes, I understand.
    So you got in the transport the next day?
    You asked me a question about--
    Your sister.
    Or if I ever joined the resistance.
    No.
    This one I never did.
    Because I was the one.
    My dad became just like a child.
    So you stayed.
    I just kind of feel obligated that I have
    to take care of the family.
    Yes.
    And my brother, he was just a child too.
    Then I used to think, I don't know.
    I just feel kind of responsible.
    And that's the way I went through the whole war.
    Taking care of people.
    Especially my family.
    I was a little selfish too maybe.
    I don't know.
    What happened to your sister?
    Well, they took me with this transport, and sent me away,
    and I don't know what's happened to my sister.
    We were on this transport.
    They put us in wagons, about around 30 people.
    And then when we arrived, they said Auschwitz.
    Auschwitz, and Auschwitz was that death camp.
    I mean whoever we went there, we understood was killed.
    I know I'd be killed.
    What's happened, they brought us there,
    took everything away from us.
    I remember I have a little schnapps with me
    I used to carry, little frame my family pictures,
    and they took it from me.
    This is-- that's all I have on me.
    But they took it, everything.
    They shaved my head, took everything off on me.
    Put this tattoo number.
    Put me in a barrack with about 120 people.
    And next morning I was worked up that I'm going to Raisko.
    Raisko was the place where they used
    to put in crematorium people.
    And I just thought it's dead.
    But it just happened they sent me to a laboratory in Raisko.
    They have a laboratory there where they were
    making experiments on people.
    They put me in a section where they were making experiments
    to find this medicine to cure diseases.
    They have a Jewish doctor.
    His name was Miesel.
    And I became the Guinea pig.
    They brought me to him.
    And they tried the injection on me.
    I was their Guinea pig.
    And my luck was good.
    And next day, his assistant got sick.
    He met me.
    He looked at me, talked to me just
    like I'm talking to you now.
    He became fond of me, liked me.
    And the next day when they brought me,
    he wouldn't let the infection on me.
    They just told me his assistant got sick.
    He would like to have me for assistant.
    And they tried it on another person.
    It killed him.
    See, what you were telling me this was.
    Heroism or luck?
    You mean because he wanted you to be an assistant,
    they didn't give you a shot.
    They brought me next day to him for the same shot,
    for some another medicine he tried to create.
    But they had already given you one shot.
    Before, and it was good.
    And you survived it.
    Survived it.
    And the next day you came you were supposed to get a shot,
    but instead he made you an assistant.
    An assistant.
    He asked them to make me an assistant,
    that his assistant got sick.
    So they gave the shot to somebody else,
    and that person died.
    What is this?
    Luck.
    That's what I call it.
    And that's the way I survived with him, 3 and 1/2 years.
    In Auschwitz.
    In Auschwitz.
    I used to go out from the barracks,
    to this laboratorium and work with him.
    And I must have be good with him,
    because he kept me all this time.
    He kept me there about almost two years.
    Then I notice we have a hard time to keep up in barracks.
    They, for instance they put you in barrack, about hundred
    to people.
    They put in charge, they make a kapo, for instance,
    the man who was in charge to us was a murderer.
    He was-- we have politic signs, the red ones.
    He has a green one, which means he was a gangster, a murderer,
    who knows, whatever.
    Whatever.
    A murderer?
    Murderer, yeah.
    And he was in charge.
    In the barrack where I was they were
    bringing two people each day more, and adding two people.
    But when they brought these two, he
    couldn't have more than he has before 98 or 100, which mean
    he has a chance to kill two.
    They just told him to kill two, whatever, any way he wants.
    You can imagine what a hard time I had being a Jew,
    to survive this each day so many years?
    In beginning I used to sneak out of it.
    Then they used to take us out to making segregation, left
    and right.
    Left was to crematorium, right to work.
    And I went through one, two, three times.
    And when I was going like this after almost a year,
    working with this doctor, I started thinking
    I have to make it easy on me.
    Just how long can you survive?
    There is going to come a day that I have to go.
    I notice that they're bringing some animals, killed animals,
    to the garage from laboratory.
    Then I start talking to the doctor about it.
    And he explained to me that when they kill an animal,
    they afraid that somebody is going to put poison in it.
    Because there were a lot of people against the regime.
    That before they start using the meat,
    they checking it in laboratory, or the meat is good.
    I have idea would be good if I be working in garage.
    Now being working on bicycles when I was a kid, I told him,
    I know about cars too.
    But I didn't.
    They put me in garage.
    There was one from Czechoslovakia man,
    and one was I don't know from Yugoslavia, Slavish people.
    I start working with him, working on bicycle.
    And they were car mechanic.
    It's just I picked up the German language first.
    And after working there three months,
    I became the chief over them.
    It didn't took me a long time.
    I just became the chief over them.
    And then each time meat came in, I have idea.
    And then I made the idea work.
    Each time they brought meat when it comes to the garage,
    I cut off about around 2 kilo.
    2 kilo was about around about 4 or 5 pounds, and put it away.
    Then when they check the meat and told me it's good,
    I have to find a way to smuggle it in, in the barrack.
    Well, should I tell you how I did it?
    Well, I hope you don't mind, you're a woman.
    I went to the barrack, told the man who was in charge, the kapo
    man, the murderer.
    He was in charge.
    He was the boss.
    That I have idea I could bring him meat.
    I can't promise him for sure, but he
    has to help me with it, to sew me off some slacks.
    Is sewed me off, where I got to stand up
    to show you what I did.
    That's fine.
    Just take little pants, all around here
    with a little sack here.
    This was my idea.
    And I put here in between the meat,
    always about 2 or 3 pounds.
    And each day, I used to do it almost two years.
    They touched me one day, but I don't
    know how to explain to you.
    Did you understand exactly what I said?
    Yes.
    I understand.
    I understood too.
    So you used to carry--
    you used to carry in the meat in a sack.
    Yeah, but it's just flesh together when they touch me,
    they touch the meat, but I didn't
    know what they touched, because they used
    to touch us from top to bottom.
    Yes.
    They touched it, but--
    But they didn't recognize that it was smuggled in meat.
    Meat, yeah.
    And then when I started bringing in meat, I became his boy.
    You wouldn't believe how these people lived.
    He used to have his own tailor.
    They used to make him tailor made suits.
    Now I became his right hand.
    He has meat each day.
    Yes.
    And this why I survived 3 years, 3 and 1/2 years almost.
    Should I tell you exactly how it was?
    I was sitting with him.
    I was his Jewish ward.
    I hear, this is my Jew.
    They way, he said it, I saw how he liked me.
    But well, I was surviving.
    I didn't face any more of this segregation.
    He didn't send me out.
    Each time then in beginning, you saw this killing.
    You couldn't take it.
    But then what can you do about it?
    You just get used to it.
    You see, people are just like animals.
    You get used to it.
    And nothing you can do about it.
    And that's the way I survived till January 1945.
    What happened in January 1945?
    Russia started pouring in.
    They start bombarding.
    There was an order to kill off all barracks, and--
    To this laboratorium and work with him,
    and I must be good with him, because he keeps me
    all this time.
    He keeps me there around almost two years.
    Then I notice, we have a hard time to keep up in barracks.
    They, for instance, they put you in barrack, about 102 people.
    They put in charge, they make a kapo, for instance,
    the man who was in charge to us was a murderer.
    We have politic signs, the red ones.
    He has a green one, which means he was a gangster, murderer,
    who knows, whatever, whatever?
    A murderer?
    Murderer, yeah.
    And he was in charge.
    In the barrack where I was, they were
    bringing two people each day more, and adding two people.
    But when they brought these two, he
    couldn't have more than he has before, 98 or 100,
    which mean he has a chance to kill two.
    They just told him to kill two, whatever
    he wants-- any way he wants.
    You remember-- you can imagine what a hard time
    I had being a Jew to survive this each day so many years?
    In the beginning I used to sneak out of it,
    then they used to take us out to making segregation, left
    and right.
    Left was to crematorium, right to work.
    And I went through one, two, three times.
    And when I was going like this after almost a year working
    with this doctor, I started thinking
    I have to make it easy on me.
    Just how long can you survive?
    There is going to come a day that I have to go.
    I notice that they're bringing some animals, killed animals,
    to the garage from laboratory.
    Then I start talking to the doctor about it.
    And he explained to me that when they kill an animal,
    they're afraid that somebody is going
    to go put poison in it, because there were a lot of people
    against the regime.
    That before they start using the meat,
    they checking it in laboratory or the meat is good.
    I have an idea would be good if I would be working in garage.
    Now being working on bicycles when I was a kid, I told him,
    I know about cars too.
    But I didn't.
    They put me in garage.
    There was one from Czechoslovakia come in,
    and one was I don't know from Yugoslavia, Slavic people.
    I started working with him, working on bicycle,
    and they were car mechanic.
    It's just I picked up the German language first.
    And after working there three months,
    I became the chief over them.
    It didn't took me a long time.
    I just became the chief over them.
    And then each time meat came in, I have idea.
    And then I made the idea work.
    Each time they brought meat, when it comes to the garage,
    I cut off about around 2 kilo.
    2 kilo was about around about 4 or 5 pounds, and put it away.
    Then when they check the meat, and told me it's good,
    I have to find a way to smuggle it in, in the barrack.
    Now, should I tell you how I did it?
    Well, I hope you don't mind.
    You're a woman.
    I went to the barrack, told the man who
    was in charge, the kapo man, the murderer,
    you know, he was in charge.
    He was the boss that I have idea.
    I could bring him meat.
    I can't promise him for sure, but he
    has to help me with it, to show me off some sex.
    He showed me off where I got to stand up
    to show you what I did.
    That's fine.
    Just take little pens, all around here,
    with a little sack here, this was my idea.
    And I put here in between the meat,
    always about 2 or 3 pounds.
    And each day, I used to do it almost two years.
    They touched me when they-- but I
    don't know how to explain you.
    Did you understood exactly what I said?
    Yes, I understand.
    I understood too.
    So you used to carry--
    I did-- [CROSS TALK].
    You used to carry in the meat in a sack, yeah
    but it's just flesh together.
    When they touch me, they touch the meat,
    but I didn't know what they touch.
    Because they used to touch us from top to bottom.
    Yes.
    They touched it but--
    But they didn't recognize that it was smuggled in meat.
    Meat, yeah.
    And then when I started bringing him meat, I became his boy.
    You wouldn't believe how these people lived.
    He used to have his own tailor.
    They used to make him tailor-made suits.
    Now, I became his right hand.
    You know, he has meat each day.
    Yes.
    And that's the way I survived 3 years, 3 and 1/2 years almost.
    I tell you exactly how it was.
    I was sitting with him.
    I was his Jewish word I hear.
    This is my Jew.
    Well, he said it, I saw how he liked me.
    But well, I was surviving.
    I didn't face any more this segregation.
    He didn't send me out.
    Each time then in the beginning, you saw this killing.
    You couldn't take it.
    But then what can you do about it?
    You just get used to it.
    You see, people are just like animals.
    You get used to it, and nothing you can do about it.
    And that's the way I survived till January 1945.
    What happened in January 1945?
    Russia started pouring in.
    They started bombarded.
    There was ordered to kill off all barracks, and all Jews,
    and not just all Jews, everybody, all prisoners.
    They were most of them Jews.
    But they started evacuating us.
    They took us, put us in wagon, open wagon, halfway open.
    In the wagon I was, and it was around 120, 130,
    there was snow, cold.
    In January, it's very cold in East Europe.
    It was freezing.
    We didn't have clothes.
    They give us one blanket.
    But I don't know which way I snatched
    another blanket, how I did it.
    I don't even remember.
    I know I have two blankets when they put me in it.
    And they put us in this wagons.
    From Auschwitz to Gross-Rosen is maybe 100 miles, 150 miles.
    But they were barely moving, because all the time the aliens
    were bombarding.
    They couldn't go through.
    But the wagon was open.
    There were two watchmen from both sides.
    They were eating, but we didn't even have food.
    It was freezing.
    Everybody was freezing to death.
    Well, I feel that I am getting frozen.
    I took my shoes off, and cover myself in this blanket
    both of them, the one night pass, another night pass,
    third night pass.
    And in morning, they start taking it out.
    I think they took us out, from 120 maybe four or five alive.
    Most of them was frozen to death.
    But I remember a few times during the night
    when I opened the eyes, I saw they're taking out somebody,
    just throw them out away.
    Just throwing--
    Were they alive?
    Were they dead?
    Dead.
    Now--
    So you were in a wagon on the road--
    To Gross-Rosen.
    On the outside.
    Outside.
    On the road.
    And the wagon was not the closed big wagon, halfway, half wagon.
    So it was exposed to the weather.
    Exposed to weather.
    I was about three nights in it.
    We were 120 people.
    I remember they took us alive four, three, or four, or five.
    I don't know.
    I know when they took us, two of us has frozen--
    Feet?
    Feet, they couldn't took their shoes off.
    And I was lucky, you see.
    How I did it, I don't know.
    I just took the shoes, or this was my luck.
    I would still say I was a hero, I wasn't?
    It just why I did it, I don't even know today.
    I just took it out.
    I felt it was warmer.
    And did you manage to keep your feet from freezing?
    Yeah.
    See, I took the shoes off.
    You see, shoes is tight, it's even worse,
    because this gets frozen outside, and freezes inside.
    But when I took the shoes off, and covered myself
    in both blankets, I was keeping my own heat, and this saved me.
    Why I did it, who knows?
    And they put us to work.
    I remember they took us four or five, I saw it.
    But I saw a lot of were dead.
    They start taking out the dead people.
    And they put us in barracks.
    In Gross-Rosen?
    In Gross-Rosen.
    Well, I was there three weeks.
    Everything was just upside down.
    Everybody for every little thing, they just shoot, shoot.
    Shooting was nothing.
    I was not a person.
    I was just a thing, in a way.
    We didn't work anymore.
    They just used to take us out each day on Appells.
    And we were standing eight hours,
    and they put us back, just to keep us occupied,
    and we don't have time to think.
    What did you do for eight hours?
    Just standing straight outside.
    Sometimes they put in work.
    First first, we stayed.
    Then two days they start putting us to work,
    and I couldn't work.
    Why couldn't you work?
    Because it was cold.
    It was hard work.
    I didn't have the power.
    I didn't eat, no food, no nothing, nothing to do.
    You couldn't organize anything.
    And one time they took me to work, I escaped,
    and they caught me.
    I tried to escape twice.
    I was alone.
    I didn't care.
    Where could you escape?
    All around was just concentration camps.
    One time I got away and walked in, in a home.
    It was German.
    They said they go help me, then same evening police pick me up.
    They called the German, let them pick me up.
    They said they didn't know nothing about it,
    but they helped him.
    Were these people German?
    German, yeah.
    It was in Germany, middle of Germany.
    Gross-Rosen is in the middle of Germany.
    Yeah.
    And from there, after three weeks, one day when I escaped,
    they called police, caught me.
    They beat me then.
    You know how they beat me?
    I wouldn't believe it.
    They took my clothes off, and put me on the wall,
    and with two [INAUDIBLE].
    After this, they put me in a hospital.
    How long were you in the hospital?
    Oh, about a week.
    From hospital, they took me out, made a little hole in ground,
    just like you bury a man, put me there
    for 24 hours covered with boards in the cold weather.
    Covered with what?
    With boards.
    Boards.
    Boards.
    Just like a grave.
    Just ground, they put me there and covered with boards,
    keep me there 24 hours.
    After you tried to escape the second time?
    No, first time.
    First time?
    This was not the first time.
    This the first time when they caught me,
    when I tried to escape, yes.
    They put me in hospital.
    They beat me, put me in a hospital.
    Then when I got well, they put me down there.
    They just-- I don't know the idea.
    You see, let me say again.
    German were very intelligent people.
    What I figure out now, when the intelligent man
    finds a way to torture you, are much worse than a simple man.
    Because they know how to really hurt you.
    Make sense?
    Yes, I understand.
    That's my opinion now about it.
    Then I didn't know it.
    And after they took me out, they said,
    you will not escape anymore.
    They put me in barrack.
    I couldn't move.
    I don't know how long, two or three days.
    I didn't have what to eat to put myself on my feet.
    Did you understood exactly what they did with me?
    They buried me.
    Yes.
    They put you in a grave.
    In a grave, yeah, covered with boards,
    and then they took me out.
    First day, I stopped on my feet.
    Would you believe or not, I escaped again?
    And locked myself in--
    and as far I went, it was to a train,
    and locked myself in this train, stayed there several hours.
    After several hours, they start putting all prisoners in there
    to removing them.
    That was my luck.
    So you were in a boxcar.
    Boxcar, yeah.
    Well, I escaped.
    As far I went to a boxcar, so they start hunting me.
    I just walked into this boxcar, stayed there.
    But a few hours later, they started filling up the boxcar
    to evacuate Gross-Rosen.
    So you escaped to another part of Gross-Rosen?
    I tried to escape.
    I really got away from the barracks to a boxcar.
    And I tried to get away farther, but they
    were catching up with me.
    And I was scared.
    I walked into a boxcar.
    Yes, I see.
    And stayed there.
    I understand.
    It makes it clear now?
    Yes.
    And then I stayed there several hours.
    I hear more and more noise.
    I wouldn't go out.
    Then the noise started bigger and bigger, they start.
    Then start pushing people.
    Then nobody looked in, I just opened the door,
    and started putting prisoners in.
    And where did it go?
    After they filled us up, they sent us to Buchenwald.
    Where in this train, but this was a closed up train,
    and we were not long in it.
    I would say about several hours.
    We reached Buchenwald.
    And then they put us in this concentration camp
    in Buchenwald.
    And how long were you in Buchenwald?
    Let me figure out.
    I left in January I left Auschwitz.
    '45?
    '45.
    That took me about three days.
    I went to Gross-Rosen.
    In Gross-Rosen, I know exactly I was there three weeks.
    After three weeks, I went to Buchenwald.
    And in Buchenwald I was freed by American army in April.
    I was there till April.
    Now how I was freed, that's a story too.
    I was there a few months.
    And they didn't--
    I didn't have food enough.
    And one day, I was so hungry I throw myself on food,
    on potatoes, and eat the peels.
    And they were not clean.
    And I became diarrhea.
    And I started losing weight.
    Slow by slow, I feel that I'm dying.
    This was shortly before the Americans came in.
    Where did you get the potato peels?
    They brought potatoes.
    Some they brought you a day two potatoes.
    I just eat them with the peels.
    It's but they must not be clean, I don't know.
    And I became diarrhea.
    And I start losing weight.
    I reached a point that I couldn't move.
    I couldn't go.
    I became so weak and skinny that I couldn't stand on my feet.
    How much did you weigh?
    Well after they got me out, I weighed
    around 70 pounds, when they took me in the hospital after war.
    But let me explain to you what's happened.
    They started evacuating, because now the American-- there
    was an invasion, and Americans start
    coming in from all sides, America and English.
    The part where I was, they're saying that the Americans
    are coming in, in Buchenwald.
    They start evacuating our barrack.
    They took one part, the other part.
    And then I feel that I know that I can't walk anymore.
    And if they take me, they will kill me,
    or they kill me right away when they see me this.
    Some ways, on all fours, I moved myself under this barrack.
    Now I don't know how long I stay there.
    I know they light turned twice or three times.
    And then I felt that I'm dying.
    I just didn't care that they will kill me, I'm dying.
    What's the difference?
    I start asking for help.
    An American soldier took me out.
    I mean I didn't even see them coming in.
    And then they put me in a hospital.
    When they put us in a hospital, in the room I was,
    there was several people.
    They start feeding us really good, any kind of food.
    And this was a problem too.
    See, stomach wasn't used to this food.
    And people throw themselves on food like animals.
    My luck, I couldn't eat.
    I hated food.
    Or you will tell me that I'm was a hero too?
    It just happened.
    I hated food.
    They feed me through my veins, and that's what saved me.
    After they put me on a scale, I weighed less than 70,
    pounds 69 pounds.
    I couldn't even walk, just a skeleton.
    They took me in a hospital.
    It took me about six or seven weeks before I start walking.
    Now, you want to see one more unusual story?
    When I was working in this laboratory in Plaszow,
    I have forgotten to tell you about it,
    this was a really good friend.
    This is the really one friend I have in my life
    who, well, you could say a friend.
    You see, it's easy to give when you have everything.
    But when you give away the last piece of bread
    what your life depends on it, this
    is a really good-natured friend.
    And I have a friend like this.
    It was a German, David was his name, if I remember.
    And he was a scientist too.
    He was working in the same laboratory.
    And we became friends.
    And this time I was in my 20s, and he was in his 30s.
    He was about 11, 12 years older than me.
    He was just like, I was his little brother then.
    He was kind of a heavy, fat fellow.
    And I remember when we used to sit down in barrack,
    he used to call me German Willy.
    Willy, Willy.
    Is German W, is V, Willy.
    He used to talk about food.
    It can make you sick all the time
    talking about food what he used to eat,
    when he was just dreaming to go out and eat food.
    And I remember at this time, they
    used to give us one piece of black bread, a half pound.
    Now how much was it a half pound?
    Half pound or even a quarter of a pound.
    And black bread is heavy.
    He used to divide this piece for three pieces.
    And he said, I'm going to keep myself alive this way.
    And he ate one piece for breakfast,
    for lunch, and for dinner.
    We used to call it dinner then, today supper.
    And I just couldn't do it.
    I got my bread.
    I was young.
    I just throw myself, right to my head, I eat it.
    And I remember one day we got both this bread,
    and I watched him how he cut it in three pieces.
    I couldn't take it.
    I tried to take a little piece.
    But I couldn't.
    I divided it same way but I eat it.
    I just couldn't take it.
    And when lunch came I saw him to take out the other piece
    and eating.
    And I was sitting and watching him.
    I can imagine how my eyes were popped up
    when I was watching him then.
    And he watched sideways on me, sideways on me,
    and he just he couldn't take it.
    He took that third piece of bread and give me.
    Did you understand what I say?
    Yes, I understand.
    What I'm talking about?
    Yes.
    I'm very sensitive about things like this.
    And I wouldn't take it.
    I never took it.
    I just couldn't.
    But he would give you his last piece.
    Last piece bread.
    Not just last piece, I eat my portion.
    And his life depended on it.
    And I don't know how or where when
    they moved us from Auschwitz, I don't know where he went.
    And it was so that I don't even--
    you couldn't even think about anything, just to survive.
    Did you ever find him?
    No.
    I have never found him.
    After the war, I was freed in Buchenwald with this Dr. Maisel
    together.
    And he wanted me for his son-in-law.
    He said that he has his daughter somewhere, on Irish papers.
    And if she's alive, he would like to me
    be his son, to go with him.
    I was then about the middle 20s.
    And I tried to explain him, I have a wife.
    He said, how you know she's alive?
    I said, I don't.
    But I got to go find her.
    I don't believe she is alive but I'm going to look for her.
    Then I met some girls.
    I don't know.
    So when you got on that transport,
    thinking that you were following her
    and you ended up in Auschwitz.
    Auschwitz.
    You never found her in Auschwitz?
    No.
    She was in-- they sent her to Gross-Rosen,
    to another concentration camp.
    I found her after the war.
    Now I'm coming to it now.
    Then when, after war, after I stand on my feet
    I found Dr. Maisel.
    And he tries to talk me in to go with him.
    And I said no.
    He was from Lemberg, Lwów.
    And I said, no, I'm going first to Krakow to find my family.
    Maybe somebody is alive, especially
    maybe my wife is alive, because she
    was the last one I was with.
    Well, you see when I married her, she was a teenager.
    Now she was barely in her 20s.
    You can imagine.
    But this was my wife.
    See, my wife is four years younger than I am.
    And he decided he goes with me to Krakow.
    Well, there were a group of girls then.
    They all went with me.
    I don't know.
    I must be a good looking boy when
    I was young, taking this way.
    And we all came to Krakow, and I found my wife.
    How I found my wife, where are you going?
    First, you can imagine how I feel
    when I stepped on this ground.
    Well, there's one.
    There's another story.
    When I was coming to Krakow, I met a girl
    in a way which, I don't know.
    Really, she looked me up.
    I didn't look her up.
    And we start talking.
    Then she met a Russian officer.
    And she talked me in that she's going to introduce me
    to him that I'm her brother, to move us together
    into this somewhere.
    What he did, when we came to Breslau,
    you hear about this already?
    He took us to downtown Breslau, went down.
    Well, there's more stories to it.
    Should I tell you all about it how it happened?
    I'll tell you about later.
    Let me go this story.
    When they took us to Breslau with her,
    she introduced me that I am her brother.
    He went to downtown Breslau, threw all German out.
    In the beginning, it hurt me.
    But then I was dreaming about it.
    When I get out and in Germany, I can put my hands on it,
    I kill him.
    Because how could I?
    I never killed anybody.
    I couldn't.
    I just couldn't do it.
    I just don't have it.
    So there were German prisoners there?
    No.
    Germans living after war.
    Yes.
    See, we passed first, they put us on train on American side.
    And we drove through on Russian side.
    When you came on Russian side, I met this girl.
    Now, when I came there--
    OK, now I understand.
    --she introduced me to this officer that I'm her brother.
    She talked me into it.
    She's going to tell him I'm her brother,
    and he moved us in to this house.
    Was the doctor still with you?
    Yeah, the doctor was with me.
    There were another guy, I don't remember his name.
    There were about six or seven girls with us.
    And they all went with me.
    And then he moved us into this house.
    And we just took over the house.
    And this girl tries to talk me in not
    to go back to Krakow that I shouldn't go,
    because who knows.
    Maybe my wife has somebody else if she is alive,
    or who knows what she did there.
    And she kept me there three weeks.
    And somebody saw me there.
    They went back to Krakow and told my wife about it
    that I'm alive.
    She was somebody already before, three months
    before this, somebody told her they saw me dead.
    And now somebody came and told her that I'm alive.
    But I was in Breslau still, not in Krakow.
    But then I decided, no, I'm going to Krakow.
    And they picked all together with me,
    went with me, Dr. Maisel too.
    When we came to Krakow, where are you going?
    To Jewish community center.
    I went to Jewish community center, looking for Schiffs.
    They found one, Schiff, William Schiff,
    which was freed in Buchenwald.
    They have already my name.
    That's the only Schiff they have.
    See, they didn't have my wife, nothing.
    I don't know how it happened.
    I went downstairs, then some girl looked at me, and said,
    William, gosh.
    Your wife is going to faint when she finds you.
    And she took me and brought me to my wife's home.
    She was living in the same house where her parents used to live,
    with about three or four girlfriends.
    Some old men used to rent this apartment.
    There were three rooms, and rented them one room.
    And she lived with three girls.
    When I came there, she fainted.
    We took her to hospital.
    She actually fainted and fell down.
    She almost fell down from steps.
    I grabbed her.
    She fainted.
    That's the story.
    What did you do after that?
    Well, when I was in Germany, before we got back,
    I remember we went on streets in Germany.
    People used to rob everybody.
    I remember one day I saw a Russian boy coming to a German.
    He saw a ring on her finger.
    And he told her, give me the ring.
    She start pulling, pulling, pulling.
    She couldn't get it off.
    Then he said to another guy in German, give me a knife.
    We'll cut it off with the finger in a minute.
    She took it off, gave him.
    But I couldn't do it.
    You know, it's a funny thing, I have
    a satisfaction when I saw it.
    But I couldn't do it.
    I remember before we reached Breslau,
    the trains were not going anymore.
    And we needed a wagon.
    And we went to a--
    well, I have another story before I went out on the train.
    We were sitting on this train.
    And there came two women in.
    They looked to me both young, but I think it was a German.
    One was a mother and one was a daughter the woman was not
    more somewhere in her 40s, and the girl maybe still
    a teenager.
    And they tried to get them, and throw them.
    You see, when German used to pick us up,
    they used to make signs, Jews and dogs out.
    And Jews, dogs, and Russians.
    Russian were same way.
    They just treated Russian same way, just like Jews.
    Then when we went this train they made signs.
    German and dogs out.
    And two women walked in.
    They were German women.
    And they tried to throw him out from the train.
    And in this minute, I don't know what got over me,
    how could I do it.
    You see I was dreaming when something like this
    happened I will help it.
    I'll be the first one to raise my hands
    to do things like this, because that's what they did to us.
    Eye for eye.
    I still believe in eye for eye.
    But when they grabbed him, I just I
    have a thought that this is my mother and sister.
    And I start fighting them against it.
    I wouldn't let them do it.
    I fight him so long until the train stopped.
    I was in charge through the train.
    But they all got against me.
    They throw them out.
    They throw me out.
    They throw Doctor Maisel out.
    They throw us all out.
    When they throw us out, then I sit down and start thinking.
    Why did I do it?
    I ask myself, why did I do it?
    They were Germans.
    They were people they killed everybody in my path.
    I just have forgotten this minute that there were German,
    they were women in trouble.
    And I just couldn't see anybody suffer.
    And that's why I think I did it.
    And I remember we went to a German governor in the city.
    This was a small town, and we asked him for a wagon.
    And well I got kind of rough with him,
    because he started explaining I used to speak a little German.
    When I lived in Germany, I used to speak fluently.
    But now I have forgotten a lot about it.
    And we ask him for a wagon.
    He doesn't have.
    And I say you, got to find one.
    And he told me, if he gives us the wagon,
    he will not have nothing to move his kids.
    I said, well you're lucky you have kids.
    We don't have kids to move anymore.
    He gave us the wagon.
    And then I was sorry I did it.
    It's a funny thing about it.
    Why?
    I don't know why.
    I just cannot answer it today why I did it.
    I took the wagon, but then I was sorry I did it.
    Because he mentioned to me kids.
    From one side, I feel satisfied that I did it.
    And then I just couldn't take it,
    that was inhuman why I did it.
    That's my feelings.
    Why, I don't know.
    It's hard for you to be mean, isn't it?
    Well, it's just I don't have it.
    I never shot anybody.
    I remember I was in battle, which
    is after war, how many people I could
    take revenge, what I could do everything on the Russian side.
    But I just couldn't.
    Now you came to America in 1949.
    So you spent four years from 1945 to 1949.
    What were those years like?
    Well, when I came to Poland, I stayed there three weeks.
    You asked me a question which one I didn't answer.
    How did I make a living?
    I brought a sack with some junk with me, old rags.
    Well, I didn't have values, because I didn't have it.
    I couldn't go to somebody, take a ring off,
    or go to a house, rob.
    I just couldn't have it.
    They did it, most of them Russian people,
    without excuses.
    I don't blame them.
    I don't blame them at all because that's
    what they did with us.
    But I just couldn't do it.
    I just couldn't live with it.
    And when I came, I used to go on old market, when
    I met my wife on old market, selling
    the junk, what I brought with me, and live on it.
    Then I met a uncle, my mother's brother,
    which one was on Russian front.
    He was on Siberia and made this whole, when they pushed Germany
    from Siberia till Krakow, he came on this whole front.
    How he lived it too, he's just a simple--
    but he lived it through.
    And I met him.
    And he used to bring a little food from army.
    And that's what we lived on.
    And that's the way we stayed there about three weeks.
    After three weeks, I just took a train and left the country.
    I met a friend, which talked me in, go to Austria.
    And I moved to Austria, Linz.
    And your uncle stayed in Poland?
    In Poland, yeah.
    In Linz, after we met--
    That was you and your wife?
    I took my wife with me, yeah, I met her.
    You would never located anybody else in your family?
    I was there three weeks looking for them.
    But they told me that I can always leave it, and still
    look for him in Austria, there was just a few hundred miles
    difference.
    I was looking.
    Well, for me it was, I just couldn't get over it,
    not to see my mother anymore.
    Your mother didn't survive?
    Nobody survived.
    You were the only one from your family that survived?
    Yeah.
    That's what I said.
    The funny thing, I was feeding them all these years.
    I was putting my life on the line to save them.
    Where's the principle?
    It turned out-- it turned out you were taking the most risks
    and you survived.
    So I fed them.
    I used to go out each day, each day.
    Yes.
    So many years, I did it in concentration camp
    when I was in Auschwitz, three years with this meat.
    I came once, they caught me on sabotage, and they let me go.
    How long did you stay in Linz?
    Till 1949.
    Well, after we met, after we came to Linz,
    my wife tried to talk me into that we should have a child,
    after we met, after this war.
    I didn't want it until we have a room for ourself.
    Then I made a little deal.
    I travel.
    I made money.
    I always made money.
    What were you doing?
    How were you making money?
    Buying and selling, there was everything upside down.
    Well, there were a lot of help from UNRRA and HIAS, you see,
    they were sending packages.
    Yes.
    But well, I never got anything.
    You know, the people they work with it before,
    came to these people, they need it.
    There was nothing left.
    And I just didn't ever depend on it.
    I was not a guy I could stay in line
    to be taken, because I just don't
    feel like to take anything.
    I have to work for it.
    So it's my pride.
    That's the way I am.
    And if they would bring me something easy, you know,
    I maybe would take it.
    I wouldn't say I wouldn't.
    I was in need.
    But to stay in line, to beg, this looked to me like begging.
    Yes.
    I just couldn't do it.
    I always managed to make my own living.
    I used to live in this DP camp, going out, buying and selling.
    Don't even ask me.
    OK, well you were in a DP camp in Linz?
    In Linz, yes.
    What was the name of the camp?
    At first, I was in Hart, then I was in Bindermichl.
    Then before I got my papers, I moved to Wegscheid.
    And I stayed there, waited for the papers,
    and then I moved from there.
    How long were you in DP camps?
    I was there from 1945 till 1949.
    Four years.
    Four years.
    What happened in 1949?
    I got my papers.
    See, I have a chance to go to three countries.
    It was United States, Australia, Canada.
    Well, I really wanted United States.
    But I said, which one comes first,
    I just want to get out of it.
    You had no friends or relatives in the United States?
    I remember I have some.
    I have, my mother used to write, but as I didn't know,
    I don't remember.
    I never have connection with them.
    And after the ways the war came out, how could you
    make any connections?
    I just registered myself being a DP.
    And I received my papers in 1948.
    But then I couldn't make it.
    I have some things I have to take care of.
    In 1949, the papers came and I left.
    They brought me to Bremerhaven.
    In Bremerhaven, most people who went--
    when I got my papers they asked me what part
    United States I'm interested.
    And I said I don't care if it's United States.
    They send me to a place nobody wants to go, Texas.
    What are you going to do here?
    Raise horses?
    Who would know what Texas?
    Now, most people they brought to the United States,
    they used to bring them to New York.
    They wouldn't move south anymore from New York.
    And in this country, they don't force anybody.
    Now, me they brought to New Orleans,
    preventing for me to stop in New York,
    they brought me to Orleans.
    I was on a ship three weeks.
    I even remember the name of the ship, General Eltinge.
    Because I have a child they put my wife in a cabin
    where the officers used to be.
    They put in, this cabin she was, there was about six,
    five officers, or six.
    They put three married women with children,
    and the men sleep together with men on the barracks, just
    like the soldiers.
    OK, In 1949, was your wife pregnant, or did
    she already have a child?
    My wife got pregnant in Germany in 1946 about around--
    no, my wife got pregnant in '45 still.
    And she gave birth in '46.
    In '46, she gave birth, yeah.
    So in 1949, you had a three-year-old child.
    He wasn't even three years old.
    He finished three years on ship.
    On the ship?
    Yeah.
    And did he survive?
    You have a son?
    This is your first born son?
    First born son, he's 39 years old.
    He's 39 years old now.
    Yeah.
    And he finished three years old on the ship.
    They brought us to Bremerhaven.
    From Bremerhaven, they put us on the ship.
    And I was starting explaining to you how we sleep there.
    And we have to work on ship for bringing us,
    see for instance like cleaning.
    To pay your passage.
    Passage.
    UNRRA was supposed to pay, UNRRA or HIAS,
    but ship we worked for it.
    Well, I noticed that they have a kitchen.
    I sneak myself in kitchen.
    I don't know how it was.
    Would you believe at that day, I was the chief of the kitchen?
    No?
    You get to be chief of wherever you go.
    Kitchen, well I don't know.
    I could never reach the top in my life.
    I have a son like this.
    He is always whatever we're doing, he is better than I am,
    because he's the top guy.
    But I was the next to the top guy.
    OK.
    So you got into the kitchen.
    The kitchen, and then I became in charge of the kitchen.
    You see, I picked up a little English.
    I still have a harsh accent.
    My grammar is awful, but I used to speak a little.
    In this time, I used to speak perfect German, which
    means I was communicating.
    I was speaking German better than the other one.
    How many languages did you end up speaking?
    Polish?
    Well, Polish, I speak Yiddish, German, and now English.
    And did the family speak Yiddish at home?
    Very little.
    Well, we are a very modern family.
    I have very modern-- my mother.
    No, I mean in the old country.
    In the old country.
    When you were growing up, did your parents speak Polish?
    Polish, just Polish, yes.
    I hear the Yiddish a lot, because I
    was living in this Jewish ghetto you call it.
    There were a lot of Yiddish.
    They were coming friends to my parents speaking Yiddish.
    But they were speaking Polish.
    And then on the boat you picked up English?
    Well, I used to work with the American soldier in Germany
    before I left it.
    I met an officer.
    I see.
    So you learned English that way?
    There's another story there.
    I'll bet.
    Well, it's a little story yes, behind it.
    Well, it's not important.
    He was officer.
    So you were on the boat, and you became--
    you were in charge of the kitchen?
    Well I became the chief of the kitchen,
    and then that's the way we came to the United States.
    We came to New Orleans.
    They kept us.
    And my wife was sick all the time.
    You know, from the sea.
    Seasick.
    She's a very-- every little thing, she's sick.
    Now she's sick too when we came here.
    She has a problem.
    She gains weight easy.
    That's my wife.
    That's my life.
    So how did you get to Dallas?
    And then we're going to have to stop.
    When I told him, I don't care if it's United States,
    my papers were to Dallas, Texas.
    Specifically to Dallas?
    To Dallas, Texas.
    They brought me to New Orleans.
    From New Orleans, they took me to Jewish community center.
    They put me on a train, and brought me next day to Dallas.
    And what was your first job here?
    Well, they didn't have a job for me.
    I found the job by myself.
    How I found a job, I have only one job.
    This was the only job I have in my entire life.
    I used to go in a machinist school too, partly.
    I used to go to two schools, to a night school
    and to machining school, where I was studying to be--
    I was a very busy from the time I was a kid.
    What were you studying?
    Being a machinist.
    A machinist?
    A machinist, yeah.
    And I was going to this school twice a week
    before war, two hours.
    And they started asking me in English.
    You see, a lot I understand, a lot I didn't.
    And I used to work on bicycles, on sewing
    machines a little bit, really not on sewing machine,
    on bicycles.
    And they ask me the sewing machine.
    Well, I really didn't know what the meaning of the sewing
    machine, sewing was.
    But I understood machine.
    When he said sewing machine, I thought he means machinist.
    And I said, yes.
    He found me a job.
    The job was here in Dallas.
    I think still the company exists.
    It's a sewing machine company.
    Do you know the company in Dallas?
    He brought me down there?
    This was on about 1000 block Elm Street.
    The building is down now.
    And when he brought me there, the guy looked at me and said,
    well, I don't need him.
    I can have a black man for $25 a week.
    He said, pay him $25.
    And that's the way he started me.
    The first thing he gave me a broom, and a pot,
    and took me to a toilet.
    Clean there.
    Well, I started it.
    I was practically 30 years old when I came here.
    And then he put--
    I was cleaning and he was training me
    to being a sewing machine mechanic.
    Well, I was there six months.
    I was just doing the same job, the men,
    was doing there was working 15 years.
    He tries to put me on his place, because the other man
    was getting old.
    Then I noticed that they start selling,
    people selling people to city, delivering machines,
    and selling sewing machines.
    The men was making three, four calls a day.
    I asked him to try me out.
    And he said, you don't speak enough
    English to talk to people.
    You can communicate with us, but with them, you can't.
    Well he has an old man.
    One day this boy didn't show up who was
    supposed to go on this call.
    He sent me on his place with this other man.
    Well I made him 15 calls.
    He couldn't believe it.
    How did you do it?
    I said, no, I was running like crazy, working.
    When I work, I work.
    Well, he decided he rather sends me with the other man
    then the other men, two men for one,
    because the other man was making three phone calls a day.
    I was making 15.
    And the other man was cheap and I was cheap.
    I mean he didn't pay us maybe both what he paid this one man.
    And that's the way I started.
    Then I start speaking language.
    Well, I started for $25 a week.
    Then he started giving me raises.
    Then one day, I came in, I said I don't make enough.
    He raised it for $70.
    Well after two weeks, I came back and said, look here.
    You're not paying me enough.
    Why?
    Look at what you're making everybody.
    Works for $40 or $50.
    You just stay here here.
    You don't even speak English.
    You make $70.
    I said I want $100.
    He's not going to pay me $100.
    So I took my tools, and when I quit, he wouldn't let me quit.
    I was just bluffing.
    I don't know what I would do if I would quit.
    But I did it.
    He gives me $100.
    When I was going out, well, repairing machine,
    I start selling.
    There were most of them you see when
    you're selling sewing machine, dealing with women.
    I start talking them into buy machine, that I give them
    free service.
    And they went for it.
    I mean each second machine I went repair it, I sold one.
    When I start selling, I told him look here, I want commission.
    He said, OK, I give you 5% commission.
    Then I figure out, I can make bigger prices.
    I can sell for more, for instance, the machine was $50.
    I sold it for, I mean for $70.
    I sold it for $90.
    I made a deal with him.
    If you want me to sell it, whatever I take more
    than the price, we'd be 50-50 partners, and he agreed to it.
    He didn't want it.
    But he agreed to it.
    And I started making pretty--
    everybody was making $50 a week.
    I was already making $200.
    But I worked day and night, day and night.
    And then what's happened on this job after several years,
    I start saving money.
    See, I lived very tight, and most money putting in bank.
    He needed money for the business, expanding.
    And I took out--
    I was working for him several years.
    I took out $7,000 in lending, and after he
    saw me having the $7,000, he got scared of me
    that I take over his business.
    He started pushing me back.
    But I was scared to quit.
    And I stayed with him 18 years, saving money, hard way.
    Well, if this was in 1967, my son
    from the time he was a little boy, he's a very smart boy.
    Oh, in this case, he's just like me.
    He's just smarter than me, because when he keeps money,
    he knows how to keep the biggest part for himself.
    I didn't.
    I divided always with everybody.
    Who was my friend, I used to divide it.
    But I learned in business you can't be like this anymore,
    and I learned that the hard way.
    This was my nature.
    He talked me in to go in real estate.
    I have saved up $50,000 or $60,000
    and I bought a building in Oakland.
    Which one was the Travis Lodge.
    I don't know, you know the building.
    You know the building?
    Yes.
    This was my building many years.
    And this is the building I started with.
    My son worked in it.
    He was dating a girl then.
    And we bought this building, and he moved in there.
    Then when I bought this building, I went to a bank.
    We start thinking about expanding.
    This was after being in this country almost 20 years,
    18 years.
    It was in '68.
    He started expanding.
    Well, I decided, went to a bank, and borrowed money
    against this building for a down payment.
    And then went to another bank, and borrowed a loan
    until about three years, I have about seven
    or eight buildings, small ones.
    Don't ask me how we keep them up.
    OK, we're going to need a stop soon,
    because our time is running out.
    But what happened was is that you went into real estate.
    Right away.
    Yeah.
    And you accumulated buildings.
    Yeah.
    And you had--
    Now, I am kind of, well, there's a lot of stories in it.
    And now I am kind of semi-retired.
    I still own one, a big one.
    OK.
    And I don't operate.
    I have a crew of people which will operate this building.
    I just supervise.
    I pay them good, and they take care of it.
    And I supervise it, and then I have a lot of investments.
    And today, you're doing fine?
    Oh, very good, yes.
    Then maybe this is a good place for us
    to stop with this interview.
    And I want to thank you for sharing this with us
    and for being here.
    You're welcome.
    You're very welcome.
    We'll stop our interview now.
    See, I am not a man you have to ask too many questions,
    because I am a big talker.
    I don't know if I speak well English.
    But I--
    I understood.
    --talk a lot.
    You speak well enough for me to understand.
    But forgive me one thing.
    I get very emotional, when I talk about--
    You don't need to be forgiven.
    --when I talk about my past, because it just
    hurts to think about it.
    You don't need to be forgiven.
    Thank you for coming here.
    It's my pleasure.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    William Schiff
    Interviewer
    James Pennebaker
    Alan Griffin
    Date
    interview:  1985 November 09

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    2 videocassettes (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
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    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Schiff, William.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    James Pennebaker and Alan Griffin of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies conducted the interview with William Schiff on November 9, 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History branch received the tapes of the interview from the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies on March 18, 1991. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives received the interview by transfer from the Oral History branch in February 1995.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:09:05
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn506612

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    Contains interviews with 31 Holocaust survivors in the Dallas, TX area

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    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Henry Goldberg

    Oral history interview with Henry Goldberg

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Alli Itzkowitz

    Oral history interview with Alli Itzkowitz

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Mike Jacobs

    Oral history interview with Mike Jacobs

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Miriam Joseph

    Oral history interview with Miriam Joseph

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Abram Kozolchyk

    Oral history interview with Abram Kozolchyk

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Leo Laufer

    Oral history interview with Leo Laufer

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Helen Neuberg

    Oral history interview with Helen Neuberg

    Oral History

    Helen Neuberg (née Chaja Miemacher), born December 12, 1926 in Ostrowice, Poland (possibly Ostrowiec in powiat sokołowski), describes her Orthodox family; growing up Jewish and her interactions with Gentiles; the German invasion; the restrictions placed on Jews; people being killed for breaking the curfew; her experiences in the ghetto; hiding during the deportation of her family, all of whom perished in Treblinka; witnessing acts of brutality and cruelty; obtaining false papers; moving to Warsaw, Poland; finding work as a waitress in Stuttgart, Germany, where she lived in fear of discovery; being aided by a Jewish American solider after the war, who assisted her in finding relatives in North America; meeting her husband, who was a survivor of concentration camps, in a displaced persons camp; and immigrating to the United States with her child and husband.

    Oral history interview with Jack Oran

    Oral history interview with Jack Oran

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Sol Prengler

    Oral history interview with Sol Prengler

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Lori Price

    Oral history interview with Lori Price

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Ann Salfield

    Oral history interview with Ann Salfield

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Rosalie Schiff

    Oral history interview with Rosalie Schiff

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Jack Stein

    Oral history interview with Jack Stein

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Erica Stein

    Oral history interview with Erica Stein

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Manya Wozobski

    Oral history interview with Manya Wozobski

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Greta Zetley

    Oral history interview with Greta Zetley

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Leon Zetley

    Oral history interview with Leon Zetley

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with James Hirsch

    Oral history interview with James Hirsch

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Alegre Tevet

    Oral history interview with Alegre Tevet

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Zohn Milam

    Oral history interview with Zohn Milam

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Eva Nanasi

    Oral history interview with Eva Nanasi

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with William Schiff

    Oral history interview with William Schiff

    Oral History

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