Oral history interview with Max Findling
Transcript
- Welcome.
- I am Joseph Preil, co-director of the Holocaust Resource
- Center here at Kean College of New Jersey.
- Today, Thursday, December 3, 1992, we
- are privileged to have with us as our guest Mr. Max
- Findling of Brooklyn, who is a good friend of Mr. Naftuli
- Lax of Elizabeth.
- And both Max Findling and Naftuli Lax
- grew up together in the same town in Poland,
- went to the same school, and shared
- many of the same experiences during World War II.
- At the outset, Mr. Findling has here
- a number of pictures that we want to make sure to view,
- and then we'll get to the story.
- This is-- Mr. Findling, what is this?
- This is the picture from the outside from the synagogue
- in Zmigród.
- This synagogue was our old synagogue [INAUDIBLE]..
- I would say about 400 years old.
- And the next picture is the same synagogue?
- And this was the same synagogue--
- the inside of the synagogue.
- Is there anything you'd like to point out
- about the inside of the synagogue?
- Well, the inside was also old.
- And the ceiling of the synagogue was
- all of kind of paintings from all of kind
- religious historical memories.
- The lighting inside was not electric.
- These were always candelabras with candles.
- Yeah, very, very heavy brass.
- They would have, I would say, a couple hundred kilo each.
- Yes.
- You could not replace this.
- This was the main synagogue of your town.
- Yes.
- All right.
- After the war, how recently were you in Poland
- to take those pictures?
- This was-- no, sorry.
- This was in 1990.
- I went back to Zmigród with my son Michael and other friends.
- This is 250 meter from the road, from the main road
- going into the forest of Halbuv, where the mass killing took
- place on July 7, 1942.
- In this grave, there are 1,250 men, women, and children.
- We'll hear more about that during the course
- of the interview--
- Right.
- --as well as about the synagogue itself.
- This was a stone which was putting down
- in 1945 after the war.
- But the Zmigróder, when they came back from Russia and also
- from the concentration camp, this stone is deteriorated.
- You cannot see nothing what is written on this particular
- stone.
- But right now, we are in a project
- to put in a new stone, which are going
- to be proscribed in Polish, in English, and in Hebrew,
- which-- this will take place next year in 1993,
- approximately in the same day when this happened.
- When you say, "we"--
- We-- myself, my son, other friends from the Zmigród
- Society, from the Zmigróder, and also people from the United
- States which had donate money to this project.
- All right.
- I think for it's this one.
- No, that'll be last.
- OK.
- This is a picture which took-- it took place
- in Warzyce in the forest.
- I would say about seven kilometer
- from the town of Jaslo.
- In this grave was buried between 40 and 50 people, including
- my sister with two rabbis, which--
- the name from this rabbis was Rabbi Meilech Rubin from Jaslo
- and Rabbi Chuno Halberstarm, the Rabbi of Kolicice.
- My sister is buried here.
- My friend's mother, Esther Rosner and the daughter Malka
- Rosner.
- There is buried there Shulom Pfeffer, his wife Leah Pfeffer
- with other two daughters.
- There's buried another woman from my town, Leah Lieberman,
- with her daughters, and a lot more Jews.
- Approximately, I would say, between 40 and 50 people
- took place.
- They took them out from the Jaslo jail
- and they got killed in the forest of Warzyce.
- And this is the picture.
- Again, we'll hear about that during the course
- of the interview.
- And here--
- This is a picture I took of from the gate going into the Warzyce
- forest.
- Well, the set here in this picture,
- they don't mention here that the Jews were killed here.
- What they mention here is that Poles was killed here.
- Do you want to read--
- it's written in Polish.
- It is written in Polish.
- Perhaps I'll give you the picture,
- and you'll translate it into English.
- Yes.
- "This is the cemetery from Warzyce.
- The place from 1940 to 1944, the police in the Gestapo from
- Jaslo with other Hitler's people shot and killed groups
- of people from the surrounding area from Jaslo, Krosno,
- Gorlice, Brzeszów, and also other places.
- They put down the place that this
- happened the 25th of February, the 3rd of July,
- the 18th of August in 1943.
- Also the 18th of April, the 1st of July,
- the 8th of July in 1944.
- Here there are 32 graves which they are laying here about
- 5,000 people which they have all killed by the German --
- by the Hitler's [INAUDIBLE]."
- So all it says is people.
- People.
- They don't mention Jews.
- And they're all Jews.
- No.
- They're not all Jews.
- Most of the people, they are Jews.
- Well, later in the story, I will tell you
- how I know what happened there and how I
- know how many graves there are.
- Right.
- And now we'll go back to the beginning of life.
- Can you tell us when and where you were born?
- Your birthday and your place of birth.
- I was born in Zmigród in the 28 of July in 1923.
- I lived in Zmigród all my life.
- I was said my whole family was living in Zmigród about 200
- years.
- Zmigród is located where?
- Zmigród is located not far away from the Czechoslovakian border
- and is by-- in the Carpathian Hills.
- There is about 170 kilometer from Kraków and about 18
- kilometer from Jaslo, which--
- this was the main city in order to get to the railroad.
- So this is in Poland.
- This is in Poland.
- And your large city is Kraków, but your closest--
- The largest is Kraków.
- The closest is Jaslo.
- And how large a community was Nowy Zmigród?
- Nowy Zmigród was about, I would say, 2000 people,
- Jews with Gentile.
- But I would say about 80% Jews.
- But the surrounding Zmigród, which was most of them
- Gentiles, single Jews which they live over there.
- Then my grandfather was also born in Zmigród.
- Like I said, about 200 years, the family lived in Zmigród.
- My grandfather's name was Shimshon and the grandmother's
- Gittel.
- They had eight children.
- Five sons and three daughters.
- In the beginning, they all lived in Zmigród.
- The oldest one was Chiel, then was Chaim,
- and then was Hersch, and Abraham, and my father, Isaac.
- And then was a sister Shprinsel.
- She married in the family Leibner.
- And then was Fagarisl, married to Lank,
- and then was a daughter, Sima She married our cousin,
- Chiel Hirsch Findling.
- During this time, they emigrated from Zmigród.
- The remain in Zmigród was Isaac.
- That's your father.
- My father, and their sister Shprinsel
- who married to Leibner.
- My father, they were a very close family.
- We had other families in Zmigród like uncles, cousins.
- I would say about 50 people.
- And we lived all together, approximately
- in the same neighborhood.
- Zmigród, I would say, the Jewish people of Zmigród,
- they were religious people.
- I would say all of the people, they
- went to shul every day, at night, Saturday.
- A lot of people, Saturday, didn't
- work, because you need to have a [INAUDIBLE] is
- you didn't work certain places.
- The children from Zmigród, most of them attended public school
- in the--
- I would say it was a public school in Zmigród--
- from 8 o'clock in the morning till 1, 1:30.
- And after this, you went to cheder to learn Hebrew,
- [? Chumash, ?] Gemara [HEBREW].
- And you used to go for German lessons also.
- Because Zmigród, before the war, first world war,
- was belonged to Austria.
- Is the culture--
- Belonged to Austria?
- Belonged to Austria.
- They used to go like this.
- Then my hometown, in mine own home, we were three children.
- My oldest brother was Jacob.
- He was born in 1921.
- Then it was our sister Gittel.
- She was born-- no, Jacob was born in 1918.
- Our sister Gittel, she was born in 1921.
- Then I was born in 1923.
- What happened to Jacob and Gittel in the war?
- Jacob died of pneumonia in 1944 in camp of Skarzysko-Kamienna
- in Poland.
- And Gittel?
- And Gittel was killed in 1942 in the forest of Warzyce,
- with other people, which I'm going to tell the story later
- what happened to them.
- And what happened to your parents during the war?
- My parents got killed in Zmigród in the forest of Halbuv--
- this is about seven kilometer from Zmigród--
- with other 1,250 men, women, and children.
- So of the five people in your immediate family,
- you were the only one who survived.
- Of the five people, I am the only one to survive.
- How many survived of the eight children
- of whom your father was one?
- From the rest of the brothers.
- Brothers and sisters.
- I would say from Chiel and Chaim, nobody survived.
- Abraham, he died on normal causes.
- Yes, his wife--
- He died before the war?
- Before the war.
- His wife is in the mass grave with all of their children.
- A few of their children survived the war in Russia,
- and then they emigrated to Israel.
- Of the sister Fagarisl, yes, two survived.
- The rest were exterminated.
- Of my aunt Shprinsel Leidner, I would say
- they had about seven children.
- Yes.
- Two survived.
- One came here to the United States before the war.
- One was in Russia.
- The rest of them got killed during the war.
- So of those who remained in Poland during the war,
- of your extended family--
- and we're only talking about your father's side now--
- I was the only one.
- The only one who was in Poland during the war and survived.
- In Poland during the war and survived, yes.
- And about how many people are we talking about altogether
- on your father's side?
- Well--
- A guess, because we didn't realize--
- In this mass grave, I estimated between 30 and 40 people.
- Of your family?
- Of-- my father's family, aunt and uncles, sisters,
- lay in there in this mass grave.
- But others were elsewhere in Poland, no?
- Well, when you say others, you mean--
- Others of the family.
- Yeah, they're not-- they didn't survive.
- Yeah, they got killed in other places
- which I don't know where.
- Oh, you don't have a-- you never stopped to think about how many
- people were--
- In all, it was a couple hundred people in the family.
- In the family.
- Yes.
- And does that include your mother's family, too?
- No.
- My mother's family come from Hungary.
- Uh-huh.
- I don't know what happened.
- She had in America, two sisters and a brother.
- And she was the only one in--
- Europe.
- In Europe.
- So her family, her siblings, in other words.
- Her sisters, brother-- they left Europe before the war.
- They left Europe many, many years before the war.
- All right.
- Right, now we have you in Nowy Zmigród.
- You're born in 1923, which means when the war broke out in '39,
- you were 16 years old.
- What was the relationship between Jews and Gentiles
- in Poland?
- The relationship between Jews and Gentiles in--
- I would say in Zmigród, yes.
- It was not too great.
- For instance, I was attending the school, public school.
- I was wearing a yarmulke in the school.
- We were a couple of Jews in this particular class.
- And they used to come all with friction.
- They used to rip off the yarmulke.
- They used to bring food non-Kosher
- and used to stick in our mouth.
- And there used to always be between us fights.
- They used to call us name.
- We used to always--
- we always used to fight, yes.
- And there was a lot of anti-Semitic things in Zmigród
- also going on.
- For instance, I'll give an example,
- since I remember there was make--
- the people from Zmigród, some of them from the Poles,
- they used to make a Jew, which they called him the Judosz.
- Jud--
- Judosz.
- Judosz.
- This was the name they called him.
- Judosz.
- Y-J-I-D?
- J-U-D-O-S-Z. Judosz.
- And they used to come on Jewish holiday before Good Friday.
- When the Jewish people went from the synagogue,
- one of these anti-Semite went behind the Jew, rip him
- off a hat, or a shtreimel, yes, in order
- to make a Jew, a puppet, a Jew.
- They make a beard, with payos, with a black uniform,
- with a gartel--
- I don't know how you say in English, the gartel.
- A special belt.
- Special belt. They used to work on them till Good Friday.
- Then came Good Friday, like Thursday night, all
- the Poles from the surrounding areas
- used to come to town from small, from children, from 8 years
- to grown up up with big sticks.
- Yeah.
- They used to ask, where do you go?
- We going on the Judosz.
- This what happened.
- Yeah.
- They came to the town into the square
- of the town, which the whole square was Jewish houses.
- Just in one of the corner of the square was the church.
- And the church was very, very tall.
- They brought this Judosz on the top of the church
- and they stick him out of the window.
- And the anti-Semites, they were standing on the top
- in talking Jewish slogans about Jews, all of kind of thing.
- And this was in the church, because the church
- by themselves--
- yeah, the priest by himself was a very big anti-Semite.
- And he encouraged this on the Sunday, yeah,
- they should do certain thing to the Jews.
- And this was going on for Good Friday.
- Fun in the morning, got whole day.
- Doing by the end of the day, doing today,
- sometime was coming clashes between the Jews and the Poles.
- But the Polish police did never intervene.
- By the end of the day, they thrown down this Judosz
- from the top to the ground.
- And the Poles used to take him on two stick,
- and they were bringing him around to the Rabbi
- for Zmigród, to the head of the Jewish community.
- And they put him there standing up in the front of the window.
- They used to talk slogans like the Jews.
- They used to put garbage on the windows.
- And they was going around in most of all the street where
- Jewish people used to live till they came to a bridge where
- the bridge connected Zmigród to another small thing.
- And they put him on the bridge.
- They pour gasoline, and they put him on fire
- and they throw him down to the water.
- This was the end of the Judosz each year
- till the war broke out.
- Now when the war broke out, they want to do the same thing.
- They was thinking, this the Germans.
- If they're going to see something like this,
- they're going to be impressed.
- And they're going to help to the cause to kill the Jews.
- But this happened the opposite way.
- They didn't know what a Judosz is.
- There's so hundreds and thousands of Poles
- coming to the town, they was thinking
- that they are going to make a revolution against the Germans.
- And the German police came out and they start to shoot,
- and they kill a couple Poles.
- And they announced that these Poles
- got killed because they wanted to make
- a revolution against the Germans.
- And this ended the problem with the Poles.
- But Jewish people have stores.
- There were a couple Gentile stores.
- They used to stay--
- they used to write slogans not to buy by Jews.
- The Poles to Poles.
- There was a lot of anti-Semitic thing going on in Zmigród.
- Even in the school, the teachers,
- it was very anti-Semitic.
- Because the Jewish boys were all the time good students.
- Yeah.
- Excuse me.
- And the Gentiles didn't like this thing, because we always
- had better marks than they had.
- This always was friction between them.
- Well, this is most of the thing what happened with the Poles
- in thing.
- But not all the Poles, I would say,
- was particular anti-Semitic.
- Certain Poles, yeah, maybe, was not so much anti-Semitic, yeah.
- Or more about they wasn't and they didn't want
- to show up for the neighbors.
- Because in our street was living a couple Gentile thing.
- I did not see anything between us anti-Semitic things.
- But I would say most of them were anti-Semitic.
- All right.
- The war broke out in '39.
- The war broke out in 1939.
- I don't remember exactly--
- I would say about a week, the German were in Zmigród.
- Because once that came from the side of Czechoslovakia,
- and the Poland did not have an army on this border.
- Our big one is the other way.
- They came in.
- When they came in, most of the Jewish people
- was inside in the houses.
- They came into our block.
- They establish positions with their machine guns
- against aeroplanes.
- I remember my mother went out and wanted
- to greet them with bread and salt.
- And think they didn't want to taste.
- They thanked and she went into the house.
- In the beginning, we didn't see anything specific from them.
- But later during that time, by the end of 1939, yeah,
- one Friday, the Jewish people went to the synagogue.
- The people went out in the synagogue.
- And they went in.
- They put in gasoline.
- And they put the synagogue on the fire.
- Synagogue that we saw in the pictures.
- The synagogue what you saw in the pictures.
- They were rampaging Jewish houses.
- They wanted to catch Jewish people,
- throw them into the fires.
- Yes, I remember they knocked for us on the door.
- My mother opened the door.
- They came in.
- I had an uncle.
- His name was [PERSONAL NAME].
- He came from a small town called [PLACE NAME]..
- He was living in our house.
- And my mother put him to bed, because she
- was afraid they're going to throw him into the fire.
- Matter of fact, they wanted to take him out,
- but my mother was pleading, crying.
- They left him alone.
- The fire was boiling for days.
- Did they get some Jews to throw to the fire?
- They did not get no Jews.
- No, they didn't get no Jews.
- Would you say it was a disorganized action
- on the part of the Germans?
- I would say.
- I would say.
- But everything but--
- All they succeeded in doing was in burning down the synagogue.
- Burning down the synagogue, yes.
- So this is the end of '39?
- This is the end of '39--
- no, after the Jews had to go in to take apart
- the whole synagogue.
- I mean, the synagogue was made of stones.
- You had to take apart the synagogue in order
- to make flat.
- You shouldn't even see this anything was over there.
- Then we came to 1940.
- Still in Zmigród-- still in Zmigród,
- people used to manage to get food.
- The German-- a lot of Polish people
- used to show to the Germans which Jew was rich,
- which Jew had a store.
- They used to come and take out the merchandise
- from the stores.
- And sometimes they used to come from other towns
- and catch Jews and cut the Jews the beards.
- And it was not--
- they didn't kill in that time nobody which I know.
- But they were rampaging Jewish houses.
- They came for-- they used--
- later on, they organized a Jewish--
- like you say, a Judenrat.
- A committee.
- That's if they want anything, they
- shouldn't have to deal with the Jewish people.
- Just they went straight to the president of Jewish community.
- Who were the members of the Judenrat?
- The president of the Jewish community,
- yes, his name was Hersch Eisenberg.
- He was a single man.
- But very tall, strong, strong man.
- And he had another couple of people which I don't remember.
- I don't remember their names.
- What was the attitude towards the people of the Judenrat?
- He was-- him by himself?
- He was a very good person.
- Taught the Jewish people.
- Very respected.
- Very respected.
- But he had sometimes certain orders, yes.
- Like, they came for contribution.
- They would say they want 100,000 zlotys or more than this, yes.
- So they came to him, he used to go to people,
- and they used to--
- in the time it was possible, they used to give to him.
- Later, they came, they want people to go to work.
- Later in the wintertime, they want
- people should clean the roads.
- Because in Zmigród, when come the winter time,
- the winter was very, very rough.
- Was snow which would come to two, three yard, two yards.
- Two yards?
- Yards, yes.
- Six feet.
- That's right.
- Because sometime, you had to make a tunnel in order
- to go from one house to the other ones.
- When I remember.
- Later the year, it was not so much.
- Is the Polish people, the roads was always closed.
- The transportation in the wintertime
- was horses and sleds.
- Yeah.
- But the German, they wanted to have
- the transportation there should the army
- should be able to pass.
- Is Jewish people have to go out and work in order
- to clean the roads.
- Working days, nights.
- Clean the roads.
- They should be able to pass.
- And sometime they went to the community for people.
- Sometime they called the people in the street.
- Whoever they called, they took him.
- Then came 1941.
- They came.
- They want to-- the Jewish people should give the furs,
- because they said they need the furs for the German soldiers
- in the front.
- They want the Jewish people should
- give the gold and diamonds.
- What was the first thing you said?
- The force?
- Furs.
- Furs.
- Fur.
- Fur coat.
- Fur coat.
- The fur coat.
- Fur coats.
- Furs.
- Yeah.
- Furs.
- Yes.
- Later, they want the gold, diamonds, metal,
- all the thing where they were worth while for them.
- Whatever was possible, the Jewish people gave them.
- Then every Jew had to go to work.
- They have to have where to go to work.
- It's everybody had to find a place where to work.
- You could find places to work by Gentile, on the field, all
- of kind of places.
- Then they wanted people should go to work on the road.
- They used to build roads.
- Is-- I was working on the road building roads.
- Then I was working and they used to take people to work
- on [NON-ENGLISH].
- This is where they did digging, the digging out the ground.
- And later with dynamite, they put down in the stones
- and they exploded them.
- And is they wanted people from Zmigród.
- Is every day in the morning, a truck,
- a German truck used to come.
- And they used to take about 50, 60 people to a place, Lipovice.
- This was not far away from Dukla.
- Yes.
- And the company, the German company's name was [? Emil ?]
- [? Ludwig. ?] Bound to [NON-ENGLISH]..
- And we were working over there in this place without money.
- They used to give us food.
- And at the night, on the borders back to Zmigród.
- This was going every day.
- Every day.
- And we're in 1941, winter.
- In-- yes, in the winter.
- Yes, it was going on like this.
- This is two years after the war started.
- Two years after the war started.
- Did you have enough food in town?
- Well, we always managed to get food.
- They used to go to the Poles.
- They always managed.
- Later came a restriction.
- Restriction came in 1942.
- Jewish people couldn't go out of the town.
- Yes, you just can go till the city borders.
- I remember one instant there was a man in our town,
- his name was--
- you called him [? Shtima ?] David.
- He couldn't speak.
- He couldn't hear.
- But he was a very--
- he was a tailor.
- And he was a very intelligent person.
- Because before the war, he used to go to Vienna
- to a special school.
- He knew how to write.
- Yes, he was the first casualty in Zmigród.
- He went out from the borders from Zmigród to a Polish guy,
- what he had a place where they were making flour.
- As he went out to this guy to ask for a little flour.
- And then the German policeman, he was riding on a horse.
- His name was [? Krail. ?] He was from the Zmigród,
- the German police.
- And he caught him on the road.
- And without no asking question, he killed him.
- He shot him on the place.
- Then he called to the Jewish community house
- they should take him and bury him.
- This was the first instance what I remember what happened
- in Zmigród where they killed.
- Then came 1942.
- Was all the kind of restrictions.
- In Zmigród, you couldn't go here.
- You couldn't go there.
- But Jewish people still manage--
- you still managed to get food.
- Still managed to get food.
- Yes, it is-- I think food was not a problem.
- Yes.
- Then came 1942.
- I would say by the 6th of July, yes we
- heard was rumors in the town.
- There's a Pole youth.
- They were working for the Germans.
- And they used to call him [? Junakis. ?]
- And there was going to their forest and dig graves.
- Dig graves.
- And they were said that this graves
- is for the Jewish people.
- This was before the 7th of July happened.
- Well, we knew.
- But still nobody believed that something like this can happen.
- Is came the 7th of July.
- They came.
- They said that all the Jewish people have
- to assemble in the morning.
- And they place the name of the place [? Ball's ?] Place--
- they used to play soccer over there--
- all the families should stay together.
- And you don't have to take nothing
- with you, because this was just a short time for registration.
- I would say most of the Jews came.
- One family what I know did not came.
- This guy did not came because he was a cripple.
- As he did not came.
- Most of them came.
- I came with my father and mother, brother and sister.
- My aunt Shprinsel with her husband, with the children.
- We stood together.
- They said you have to line up on this place.
- And we lined up on this place.
- Took time.
- During this time, Polish police came, surrounded.
- German police came, surrounded the whole place.
- We still did not have too much idea.
- Yes.
- And the Gestapo came from Jaslo and they start
- to pull out people by luck.
- Young, old, children, was nothing yet.
- This-- they took out my father, with my mother, my brother,
- my sister and me was remained on this place.
- They took him out.
- They took out your father and mother only?
- And mother-- yes.
- And my sister and brother and I remained on this place.
- And they told him to go on the other side.
- Also my aunt Shprinsel with her husband [PERSONAL NAME]]] took
- them with her daughter [PERSONAL NAME]]] with
- the children, took them out to the other side.
- And other more people from Zmigród.
- Aunt, uncle, cousin, took them out to the other side.
- I saw from far away when they took my father.
- That's-- he ask a question, and one of the Germans hit him
- on the head.
- (CRYING) And blood was running.
- My mother bandaged his head.
- And I saw from-- look and look and look
- to see, yeah, what happened.
- And I saw he went on the truck.
- And they filled up trucks and the trucks went away.
- Came other trucks.
- And this was going on almost for a whole day.
- There were rumors a couple people took their life
- themselves, which-- there was one family,
- she was work in a drugstore, and she took with her some pills
- and she killed herself on the place
- and they throw her dead with the whole family on the truck.
- And this was going on like this till about I
- would say by 3 o'clock.
- It was July the 7th.
- Was a tremendous heat.
- I never saw in my life such a heat.
- And after this, for finished, yes, everybody what
- remained on the space.
- This was about 1,250 people they took away.
- A couple hundred remained on the place, most of them young.
- We had to go to a table to register.
- Everybody had like a passport and they put down the system.
- You had to register and then they
- told us to sit on the floor, because we stood the whole day.
- In came the chief of the Gestapo,
- and they said to us everybody should go home,
- and we going to work, and we going
- to remain here till the war going to be finished.
- Of course, everybody went to-- who
- remained-- went to his house.
- You came to the house crying and screaming and yelling.
- And it was terrible.
- What can I tell you?
- It was [INAUDIBLE].
- Then after a couple hours, I looked out of the window.
- I saw a truck came down from the main road.
- It was a full truck of clothing.
- Yeah.
- Is all the people what they killed in this place, Halbuv,
- everybody had to get undressed.
- And the German used to beat him up to go into the place.
- And I just know from the rumors, what they told me.
- And on the grave was putting down a piece of wood, a board.
- Each single have to go on this board.
- And they used to shove them and he fall in the grave.
- Yeah.
- And people have to go in down in the grave and put them--
- to put them straight down.
- A lot-- most of the people fall down.
- They were not even-- they were shot,
- but they were still alive.
- This was still rumors what Polish people said.
- And matter of fact, have said that after a couple of days
- here, the blood from this grave was still
- so hot that the grave opened by himself
- and the German had to come and put a chemical in order
- shouldn't come out some sicknesses.
- Then we were in the house for one week.
- After the week came an order all the men
- should assemble again on this same ball place.
- We assembled on this place, yes.
- And they took out 150 people from the older men--
- most of them young people, was a few maybe older people.
- And they told us they're sending us away to a working camp.
- And they put us in Zmigród in jail for overnight.
- And the next day, my truck came and they brought us to Jaslo
- to jail.
- And from Jaslo to jail, they had to put us on a train,
- on a cattle train.
- And we were going, like they said, you're going to Plaszóv.
- Finally, we arrive to Plaszóv Julag 1.
- That's in what city?
- This is near Kraków.
- The camp, since I remember, was not
- far-- was one side of the camp was
- by the rails from the train.
- When I came into this camp, I was
- working by building barracks.
- Because every day, they used to bring in other people
- from other town to the place.
- This was in 1942.
- In 1942.
- Do you know about what month?
- This was in July.
- In July.
- This was in July.
- This is right after--
- A week after--
- --the 1250 were killed.
- After the 1250 people.
- Yes.
- Now, when we came to Julag 1, in that time,
- the guards in the main command, they were German.
- But they wore-- in my estimation,
- they were wearing black uniforms and they had
- these red swastika on the hand.
- My estimation was that they were one from the railroad.
- This was mine.
- I figured there were guards from the railroad.
- You know the Kommandant was?
- No, I don't remember.
- Some of the Kommandants you know?
- Yes, yes, yes.
- I was in the camp.
- I was in this camp for a couple of weeks.
- Because there came rumors in the camp
- there's a couple of weeks the SS, the Gestapo,
- going to take over this camp.
- And this is going to be a concentration camp, not
- a working camp.
- Well, the way--
- Can you describe the difference between a working
- camp and a concentration camp?
- Yes.
- I did not know exactly what was the difference.
- The difference was there's the Kommandant
- was an SS man, a Gestapo.
- Which they were the one which-- they took--
- they was the one which they exterminate the Jewish people.
- They were talking, there's the Kommandant with everything
- going to become into the SS.
- In that time, I decided that I'm going
- to run away from the camp.
- I spoke to my brother.
- He told me he don't have the strength to it,
- and he doesn't want to go.
- I said to myself, one day, I go to work, and I'm out the camp
- and I'm not going to come back.
- And I took with me another boy.
- His name was [PERSONAL NAME].
- I don't know his name.
- He spoke fluent German, because he was born in Germany.
- But his family was from Zmigród.
- And when the Germans send out the people where they were born
- in Polish to Poland, he came to Zmigród because his family were
- from Zmigród.
- I took him with me.
- I went plain to the train.
- I bought myself a ticket.
- And I said-- in Kraków--
- and I'm going back to Zmigród.
- So you could have money.
- I had some money with me.
- And I went back to Zmigród.
- But going on the train, I got very, very worry about.
- Because I knew by myself, does my face look Jewish?
- And my speaking in Polish is not too great.
- Because everybody could recognize
- when I start to speak in Polish that I'm a Jew.
- I was standing just by the window looking outside.
- Nobody should see or nobody should recognize me.
- I was going with a train [COUGHING] Excuse me.
- Not too far.
- About a couple station, and I got very frightened.
- And I decided I'm going to go down from the train.
- And I went down from the train.
- And this was a small town where the name was Niepolomice.
- I went into this town.
- I did not know nobody.
- I did not know nothing.
- And mingle around the town, I saw a lot of Jewish people.
- I recognized a woman which she was from my town, from Zmigród.
- And her family was Englehart.
- So I went over to her and I ask her, are you from Zmigród?
- She says yes.
- Are you this name?
- She says yes.
- So I say my name is Mordechai Findling.
- My father's is Isaac.
- Yes, I am from Zmigród.
- She says, I know your father.
- And then they come in conversation,
- and I tell her for where I am coming.
- And she says, what did you do?
- Yes, I wish I would be in camp.
- We don't know what's going to happen here tomorrow.
- They're talking that tomorrow, they're
- going to send everybody out.
- We still have a couple days.
- Going back to Kraków but no possibility for me.
- Yes.
- I was thinking and I saw, she is yeah,
- she had a lot of friends coming into her house, Polish friends,
- Polish police.
- As my head was working, what should I do,
- how should I be able to go to Zmigród,
- I came to a conclusion.
- I ask her, I said, listen.
- I said, I have some money.
- If you know some policeman, a Polish police what
- you're good friend with him, I have
- an idea how I would come back.
- But you have to have trust in this policeman.
- If you have somebody like this, bring him over,
- and I can introduce my idea.
- And let's see what happens.
- She brought over this policeman.
- And I told him exactly what happened with me.
- And I told him what I want from him.
- I want from him he should take me to jail in this place.
- He make out a paper that he caught me as a Jew.
- And he brings me to Jaslo to the Gestapo.
- And he has to tie my hand and bring me
- to Jaslo with the train.
- And I will pay him so much and so much.
- The idea-- he liked this idea.
- And I paid him the money.
- And at nighttime, I went to jail.
- In the morning, he tied my hand like he found a criminal
- and we went--
- we took a horse with a wagon and went to the train
- and we go on the train.
- We were riding on the train.
- But he by himself got frightened, too.
- He was worried.
- And he tells me that he cannot go too far with me--
- just till Rzezsóv.
- And in Rzezsóv, he is going to give me over to the engineer
- from the locomotive, and he's going to tell him that I am
- [? a son ?] from a Polish officer,
- that I ran away from a camp.
- And this guy is a good friend of him,
- and he is going to take me further.
- I did not have another choice.
- I had to agree to his.
- And I agree to his.
- He introduced me to this engineer from the train.
- And I was riding with him.
- And then the engineer said to me, listen, I got an order.
- I cannot go further till Rzezsóv.
- In Rzezsóv, I have to--
- the train has to stop.
- Everybody has to go down from the train.
- And at nighttime, I will be back here on the train.
- Now what do I do in Rzezsóv?
- I don't know nobody from Rzezsóv.
- I am at the train station all surrounded with Poles
- and with German Gestapo.
- Everybody looks in my eyes.
- And I got frightened.
- And I look around, how would I go out from the station?
- I looked all over around.
- It was just one entrance exit out of the station.
- But this exit-- on one side was a door,
- on one side was standing two German Gestapo,
- and they looked on everybody's face.
- And everybody had to head to line up
- in order to pass the entrance.
- As I looked, I looked, finally, I saw a woman--
- an older woman--
- had on her shoulder a sack, a heavy sack.
- And she bent forwards and the sack was on her shoulders.
- I went behind her and picked up this sack.
- But I help her, and I passed by.
- And they did not see me, and I passed by.
- I went out of the station in Rzezsóv.
- I look around.
- I didn't know what I'm going to do.
- Where do I go?
- I was terribly frightened.
- I went-- when you go out in Rzezsóv from the train
- and the station, there was a big plaza all surrounding houses
- with windows.
- I went to window to window in shop to look in the window.
- Nobody should see my face.
- German walking around, you look here, look there.
- Finally, I got frightened.
- I said he is going to be my end.
- I came to a house by the train.
- Was a big entrance into the house.
- I go into this house in the door,
- and I went in the back of this house.
- And I saw over there there are five small--
- I would say toilet.
- I didn't know if it's toilet.
- It's staying there closed.
- I opened one.
- I see it is a bathroom.
- I go into this bathroom and then I lock my door.
- And I couldn't talk.
- I said he is going to be my end.
- I am not going out from here.
- And I was sitting there for a couple hours
- till I came to myself.
- And I came to myself, I opened this door,
- and I look around in the backyard.
- And I saw in one side of this backyard was a cage.
- And in this cage were pheasant.
- It was a big cage.
- And I go over to this cage and I look
- on this pheasant in this cage.
- Now behind of this cage, there were
- grass which they used to give the pheasant to eat.
- So I went underneath of this grass
- and I buried myself there.
- And I said, this is the end, I am going to die here.
- And I lay there for a couple hours.
- Finally, a guy went to this cage and wanted
- to give to eat to the pheasant.
- He picked up the grass as he picked me up.
- And I stood.
- I did-- I was not shaved already for a nice day's beard.
- He looked on me.
- And I shaked, scared.
- He looked on me and he asked me, who are you?
- And I tell him the truth.
- I said look, I want to die here.
- And I tell him I am ran away from concentration camp
- from here and I am a Jew.
- And I want to come to Zmigród and I cannot come.
- And I don't do not want to die here.
- But I am.
- I said, I am dying from hunger.
- He went into the house.
- I didn't know what he is going.
- He brought up two pieces of bread.
- And in this bread was meat.
- And I ask him, what is that?
- He said, this is pig.
- Then I said look, I said, I am a religious man.
- (CRYING) I cannot eat.
- I cannot eat this.
- And I cried for him.
- He said, good.
- I bring you other bread.
- He went in and make other bread.
- He asked me I should eat this bread, the other one.
- And I eat.
- And I came little bit to myself.
- And he talked to me.
- He was a young boy.
- Maybe he was 17 years old.
- His face, to me, look Jewish.
- But I did not know who he is.
- And I tell him, I say, look, I say, can you help me?
- He says, what do you want?
- I said, look, I have to come to Zmigród.
- In order to come to Zmigród, I have to take the train to Jaslo
- because the train just go till Jaslo.
- From Jaslo, you have to go on your foot to Zmigród.
- Buy me a ticket on the train.
- Find out what time the train is coming at nighttime.
- And I want you you should buy for yourself a ticket
- and you go with me and the station.
- People shouldn't recognize me.
- And he agreed to it.
- He took the money, he went to buy a ticket
- for himself and for me.
- And he told me when the train comes.
- And he told me exactly what station I have to--
- the station does not stop over there, just slows down.
- I'm going to jump from the train.
- Because I could not come to Jaslo.
- It's a big station.
- They could recognize me.
- He gave me all the information.
- I was waiting.
- At nighttime, he came.
- He took me and put his arm under me
- and he went with me to the train.
- I come to the train.
- He were walk in the train, hundreds of people talking.
- Was just two days or three days before liquidation of the Jews
- in Rzezsóv.
- This what this guy told me.
- And all of a sudden, this Polish guy what went with me
- tells me that these two people talk between them
- and tell, one to other man, that I looked like a Jew.
- On me.
- And he says let's better fun away fast,
- because we're both in trouble.
- And the train starts to come.
- They announce the train going to be late in five minutes.
- And he goes with me to go out from the station.
- All of a sudden, the train comes on the station.
- He goes with me on the train, and he takes me around.
- And he tells me (CRYING) should God bring you to your place.
- And I go on the train.
- I go on the train.
- And again, with my face out in the window,
- nobody should recognize me.
- Nobody should see.
- And I count the stations.
- I count, I count, I count.
- Finally, yes, I knew that after this station,
- the station comes to a little curve and slows down.
- And I have to jump.
- Is this what happened.
- Yes.
- The station start to slow down and I jumped from the train
- in a valley.
- I jumped in the valley and I was laying over there
- for a couple hours.
- I couldn't come to myself.
- Finally, it was night.
- I came to myself.
- I did not know where I am.
- I see that I am in a forest.
- I don't know what.
- And I'm going in this forest at nighttime.
- And all of a sudden, start to rain and thunder.
- It was like the world was coming apart.
- Murder.
- Going and going.
- And I did not know.
- I said to myself, probably, this is the end.
- Finally a person--
- I saw from far away something like a person is coming to me.
- Nearer, and nearer, and nearer.
- Finally, I approach a person.
- When I approach this person, I kneeled down on the floor.
- And I cross myself with a hand, like the Poles crossing.
- I crossed myself and I said--
- I said in Polish, the way the Poles said.
- And I put my hand together.
- And this man put his hand on my head and said to me like this.
- You poor orphan.
- (CRYING) When I find you here in this place, in this condition,
- in this weather, probably God send me to you.
- Come with me.
- No opportunity.
- I don't know who I am going with.
- We left you that you had jumped off the train
- into the forest in the rain.
- And there was a young boy.
- No, no, no, no.
- An older man--
- An older man.
- --was in the forest.
- And he picked me up from the forest.
- And took you to the house.
- Took me to the house.
- You're in the house.
- So what happened then?
- OK.
- When I was in the house.
- I told him this.
- I am from Zmigród.
- And I want to go to Zmigród.
- I will pay him.
- He should take the horse and the bag and take me to Zmigród.
- He agreed to it.
- We went out both together to his wagon.
- And I was sitting in the front with him.
- Yeah, and before he start to go, he
- realize that he did not take the whip with him for the horse.
- As he says to me, you sit here.
- I'm going inside into the house to bring out the whip.
- He goes to the house.
- And he comes out with his wife.
- And the wife comes to take a look whom he has.
- Then she looked at me.
- She screams.
- This is a Jew!
- Where are you going?
- They're going to kill you.
- Don't go.
- And he decided he is not going to go with me.
- Then I didn't know where I am.
- And I start to plead with him.
- I'm going to pay you.
- You go by foot far away from me and I'm going to follow you.
- And I wouldn't have no contact with you.
- He agreed.
- He went in the front.
- And I went far behind him and I told him not
- to go to main highway.
- Just through fields.
- They shouldn't see me finally I came to make a road I came
- to Zmigród.
- He left.
- I knew already how to--
- How far a distance was it?
- Not too far.
- Not too far.
- Of course, I was going a couple hours.
- I mean, it was not a three.
- I was going a couple hours there.
- But I came to Zmigród.
- Yes.
- Finally I came to my house.
- My sister knew that I'd gone to the camp because my brother
- at that time, you could write.
- But he wrote this I'm no more here.
- Nobody should find out.
- Finally, I came to the house.
- I knock in the door in the back yard.
- I knew how to come around.
- Yeah, my sister opened the door.
- there was another few people in the house.
- And they looked on me.
- they hugged me, they kissed me.
- And I start to tell them this story.
- Where all the people there are.
- What is our camp and everybody else.
- How we seen, how is it.
- I tell them the whole story.
- And also I told them why I ran away.
- and how I came back and what happened.
- I told them the whole story.
- Finally, I was in the house with my sister.
- Outside I could not go because I was
- afraid that the German police, which they knew me.
- They're going to recognize me.
- They knew that they send me away to concentration camp.
- Also, the main Jewish community was involved.
- You.
- And I didn't want they should notice I came back.
- Also, after I ran away other my two cousins ran away from
- Kraków.
- And they also came to Zmigród.
- His name, my cousin Moishe Leidner and he
- brought Shimshin Leidner.
- And they have left home a sister, Risele.
- Yes, they came also.
- But I came before them.
- And we were in Zmigród, I did not go out.
- And one of the days after a week, I
- decided I had a friend from my school times.
- Christian friend, a girl, which I went with her to school.
- I know her parents.
- I decided to go to visit them.
- This was a few, about a kilometer out of the town.
- And I was down there to visit them.
- Her father was the engineer from the wood factory.
- I came there.
- I came in.
- They were very surprised to see me.
- Because she knew they had sent me away to concentration camp.
- As I told her the whole story.
- Yes.
- And they were very glad to see me,
- and we were talking about a lot of things.
- And while I wanted to go back home,
- she says to me that she has to tell me some story.
- I will listen.
- And she says, look, in another two days the German
- going to come in and they're going to take all of you away.
- And where, I don't know.
- If you want to, you can remain here and my parents
- with me going to hide you till the war going to be finished.
- Then I said, that's a very good idea, but I have a sister.
- I can' because I have a sister.
- Well, we cannot take the sister.
- And I said, if this is the case, I have to go back home.
- Then I ask her, how do you know this?
- Then she tells me, this on from the police,
- from the German police, his name was [? Klien, ?] yeah.
- He is coming here to my house and he told me the story.
- All right.
- I went home.
- I assemble all my neighbors what are still in Zmigród and tell
- them.
- I said, look, I'm coming now from a place which I cannot
- tell you.
- and I think that today is the last day.
- Yes?
- So we should assemble and say Kaddish.
- After our parents.
- Because tomorrow, nobody going to be here.
- And we did.
- Then I said to my sister and a couple
- people, whatever is going to happen I will not surrender.
- I will hide myself.
- And I made between our house and another house,
- there was a distance I would say twice as big than this.
- Let's say by 3 feet.
- The front and the back was closed,
- I just could go on the top of the roof and take a ladder
- and put it down and run there in.
- Because if something like this is going to happen,
- I will hide over there and I will see what happened.
- In the meantime, the next day for the night
- in the front where we knew already
- from which place from which road the German comes
- is in the front by us was our window.
- We stood a couple of people in front
- of the window to watch what is going to happen.
- If this happen, whoever has this place to run going to run.
- Exactly in the middle of the night, the German came in.
- I run with my sister and another couple of girls
- into this place.
- And all of a sudden you are hearing shots.
- Screaming.
- Shots.
- They killed.
- You are screaming because I had an observation from there
- to see what is going on.
- In the assembled whatever it was made too
- many people was not remain.
- A few of them got killed in there, in this town.
- And the rest they took away and I remain over there
- in this place to see what happened over the day.
- I sit over there and all of a sudden during this day when I
- was there, the Jewish police, which is still going
- in Zmigród.
- The German came into my house and they were screaming.
- One of the Jewish police was screaming he
- knew that I was hiding there.
- He said Mordechai if you are here in the house, better
- come out because if they're going to catch you,
- you're going to get killed on the spot.
- But I did not go.
- I remained there till everything was
- quiet in the middle of the night.
- I heard it's quiet, nothing the shots.
- I ran out from over there and I had to go to a certain place
- and cross a water in order to come to a forest.
- I just want to go back.
- The Jewish policeman--
- Yes.
- --was a policeman before the war also?
- No, no, no.
- This was the Jewish police what was made from the Jews
- when the Judenrat became--
- when the Germans established a Jewish,
- let's say Jewish community like the head
- of the Jewish community.
- They see they had to have people who
- should take over this and go around and fulfill them.
- So what did you think of that Jewish policeman?
- Well, look.
- They didn't do anything bad.
- If some of them, they just want to help out.
- He came in.
- He didn't mean nothing.
- Nothing to tell me.
- Maybe he meant to tell me that I should come out
- because otherwise they're going to kill me.
- Yes?
- I should not get killed.
- This was my impression.
- But, I didn't have the intention to go out.
- I said whatever's going to happen is going to happen.
- All right.
- I went out in middle of the night with my sisters
- and other I think three girls.
- In going to our water.
- And while I'm in the middle of this water,
- I saw my two cousins that also were
- hiding, but them in the house.
- And they also went to certain place.
- I guess him where are you going?
- He told me where they were going.
- They had Pole which they gave about all their goods
- to this guy.
- And this guy said, yeah come to my house,
- and we're going to hide you.
- I didn't have nobody in the meantime like this.
- I had somebody, but I went first to the forest.
- And we were in the forest maybe exactly for two weeks.
- It was getting cold.
- We had to go down to the--
- I mean, near the forest was small little outskirts.
- You know, from Poles.
- He was one house.
- He had the other house.
- If you went into a certain house, if you paid him money
- he gave us food.
- We went back into the forest.
- Yes.
- And this was going on for a week.
- And then after one week one day, a couple Poles
- came into the forest.
- With masks.
- And they said we came, we taking you to the gentlemen police
- or you're going to give us what you have.
- I recognize their voices when they talk to me who they are.
- And I call them out by their names.
- And I told them.
- You know me.
- I am the son of Isaac.
- Where are you taking me?
- You was a friend of my father?
- And they didn't want to listen.
- I said, listen, I don't have nothing here.
- The girls had two, three, little rings here.
- You have, and you leave them alone.
- They took this and went away.
- But I figured myself if they come today,
- tomorrow they will send somebody else
- and I don't have nothing what to give.
- And I decided in that time to leave my sister
- with the other two girls in the forest.
- And I had a Pole, one, which he told me
- before everything happened, he came to our house
- and I gave him out everything what we had.
- That time my father was also handling
- with sewing machine he used to sell.
- I gave them up six, seven new sewing machines
- with other stuff.
- And he says to me, if you're going to need something, I
- always going to send you money.
- And if you are running where I live, come into me
- and I'm going to hide you.
- Then came the situation.
- I didn't have nothing what to do.
- As I left them and I went to this Pole.
- I find a place.
- I knew where he live.
- I came in early in the morning.
- And I went into the stable, where he has the cows.
- And I stood behind the door and was waiting.
- He should come in.
- As the wife came in the stable to go
- to milk the cows, when she was milking the cows
- and had the pail between the legs, I went out to her.
- And I had a beard like this.
- Then she saw me.
- She start to scream, Oh God!
- Oh God!
- This is a how to say.
- I don't know how to tell you this in English.
- But she said in Polish this is somebody
- from the other world what came.
- I quieted down.
- Be quiet.
- Bring in your husband.
- Now she went in.
- The husband came in.
- And I said to him, you told me I should come here.
- He says, look I give you our bread.
- Here is our bread.
- And go out from here otherwise I kill you.
- OK.
- I went back to the forest.
- I knew.
- I came back to my sister with them and I told him the story.
- And I said, listen, this what I don't
- know what's going to happen.
- And after a couple days after this,
- the Polish police came into the forest.
- They start to shoot into the forest.
- And they came and they came and they caught me with my sisters.
- They tied me up in chains and they brought me down
- from the forest to the neighboring small town.
- The name is [PLACE NAME] To the mayor from the town.
- Bring me.
- And there we were sitting by the mayor from the town and they
- were waiting they should bring a horse with a wagon to bring
- to Zmigród.
- Because there was a couple kilometer there.
- OK.
- Took some time.
- They brought in the wagon.
- They bringing me into Zmigród tied in chains.
- On the wagon, all the Poles look outside when
- they brought me into jail.
- Is I come into jail.
- The guy from the jail was registering me.
- He knew me before the war.
- And he was pretty good to me.
- And they put me in one cell.
- My sister in another cell with the girls.
- And I sit in jail Zmigród.
- This is not Zmigród.
- Yeah, this is Zmigród.
- Oh, you came through Zmigród already.
- Came to Zmigród.
- He bring me.
- From the other town.
- Yes.
- It's Zmigród.
- Yes.
- And the second day sitting in jail.
- In the morning, the German police is coming.
- Opening the door, comes in.
- I knew the guy very well.
- I don't remember exactly the name.
- And he speaks to me in German and says
- to me, what you were thinking?
- That we were hanging already?
- That we finish already?
- You run away.
- But we got you back.
- Tomorrow morning, you're going to be shot.
- Then he asked me, you know who is going to kill you?
- I don't answer.
- Then he tells me.
- He asked me, you know the policeman [? Klien? ?]
- I said yeah, I do.
- He is the one going to kill you.
- No answer.
- Left the door.
- Go away.
- My sister was in the other door.
- I just could communicate with her if I went to the window.
- And I just talk out and she could hear me.
- What is the news?
- I told her the news.
- This was here.
- Tomorrow morning we're going to get killed.
- And this was going on like this for about a week.
- Everyday they come, they told me the story.
- During this week it was in Zmigród.
- He was a relative for me.
- His name was Leo Rosner with his mother
- Esther and a sister Malko.
- And another couple people from Zmigród, they were hiding also.
- And the Pole would used to give them
- til he told him that yesterday they
- caught Mordechai They caught him in the forest
- and he sits in the jail.
- As they decided there's no use for them
- to sit there if they caught me already.
- So they went by themselves.
- And they gave himself up.
- And they came into jail.
- When they came into jail, there's Leo Rosner.
- He was younger from me.
- He was probably 9, 10 years old.
- The sister was two years older.
- The mother tells me, Mordechai from today
- on you going to be his father.
- And this was relative who lived door by door.
- Every day they brought in somebody else to jail,
- they caught.
- Here another one.
- Here another.
- Finally after two weeks, we were already
- a nice couple of people.
- Came a truck.
- They picked us up and they board us to Jaslo.
- To the jail in Jaslo.
- Jaslo was one of the biggest jails
- from the whole surrounding area.
- It was, I assume there was 10 floors.
- Very, very big jail.
- That brought us to Jaslo.
- Before you went in, you had to register
- and you had to take everything out whatever you had.
- I was the last.
- Whatever I have, I took it out.
- And later they ask, you have any more?
- I said I don't have.
- They just start to search me.
- They found by me $100.
- When they find by me $100, then they start the beatings.
- They use.
- They beat me up.
- They was impossible.
- They put my hand between an iron door
- till I dropped on the floor.
- And I dropped on the floor, they was
- thinking that I'm dead already.
- But I was not dead.
- I couldn't take it.
- I dropped on the floor.
- Then I was laying like this and they picked me up.
- And they brought us up on the sixth floor.
- And they opened the door from one of the cells.
- And they told me, in.
- And I was on the floor.
- Who was beating you?
- This was Polish and German police.
- Both?
- Both.
- Yes.
- And I was inside in this jail on the floor.
- And I looked around.
- There were more people there.
- Are few what came with me.
- The woman were separate.
- And we were separated.
- And I was laying.
- Was coming to me, a man with a beard.
- And with a cane in the hand.
- And he asked me--
- First of all when I looked around with who I am here.
- I knew what is going to be the end already.
- Because all of them were old people.
- Most of them were old people.
- The man asked me what is your name in Yiddish?
- And I said is my name is Motker.
- And he tells me, [NON-ENGLISH] what is your Jewish name?
- I said it again.
- And he says your name is Mordechai.
- Your name is in Jewish, Mordechai.
- From today on, your name is Mordechaii.
- Good.
- Then I ask him, could I know who are you.
- Then he tells me, I am rabbi.
- Kalisz rabbi.
- The name is [? Juno ?] [? Halbestain. ?] I am rabbi
- from Kalisz An older man.
- Very thin with a cane, limping on one leg.
- This was my description in that time when I saw him.
- Then he introduced me in.
- He says this is a Rabbi [? Mela ?] [? Rubin ?] from
- Jaslo, tall man.
- And then he said to me, this is my son-in-law.
- The Jaslo rabbi has a son-in-law that I don't know his name.
- Then were other people over there in this jail besides.
- All together during this time, I assume, we were in one room
- maybe 30 or 35 people.
- Now the situation in this room was terrible.
- The sanitation thing was terrible.
- There was one corner, which was a pail.
- And you have to go to this pail.
- Food was a piece of bread in the morning and soup.
- And not everybody ate because was not kosher.
- A whole day, you know, these rabbi I knew who they are.
- I talked to this rabbi of Kalisz a lot.
- Because he used to ask me what I was learning in cheder,
- where I went, what I [NON-ENGLISH] what kind
- of [NON-ENGLISH].
- And he knew this.
- I knew.
- My conversation with him the whole time was about Torah.
- And there was other people which--
- and some people did not care about it.
- This was going on every day in the morning.
- By 6 o'clock in the morning.
- When they were coming to the door and the were knocking,
- the guards from jail was knocking in the door.
- Everybody had to stay by the door lined up.
- And they make one of the jail off this particular room,
- he was the chief of the thing.
- Is when they open the door, the man has to tell him,
- is so many so many prisoners is here.
- First he had to tell them good morning, captain--
- whatever rank is.
- And then you have to tell him so many so many prisoners is here.
- And after this, one has to take these they
- pail with the garbage out.
- They gave in the bread and they close off.
- This was going on for a couple of weeks.
- Then one of the days that Gestapo came.
- The German Gestapo came.
- And they took us all out in the corridor.
- And then he went around.
- He ask everybody what kind of profession you have.
- Now they asked me what kind of profession you have.
- I told him I was working by the field for Emit Ludwig.
- [? By ?] Everybody.
- They ask everybody what it is.
- Come to the rabbi.
- Ask him what you are.
- He said, I am a rabbine.
- No.
- And he said he's a rabbine.
- Then they start the hitting.
- Then I cannot tell you.
- Cannot.
- No words.
- He had to run from one corner to the other one in this hallway.
- Very big hallway.
- He could not run because he was limping.
- It was murder.
- Then they took the other one.
- Then there was murder.
- It was a couple hours beating and beating and beating.
- How these men survive, I don't know this beating.
- But he survived.
- Who was doing the beating?
- The German.
- The Gestapo from Jaslo.
- Jaslo.
- Then they went to segregate.
- Were you under the impression they were trained to do that?
- They don't have to be trained because they all
- knew this thing.
- All the Gestapo knew this thing.
- And they got the lessons to do this thing.
- All this thing.
- This is the Gestapo what did the killing in Zmigród.
- This is the Gestapo what did the killing in all the surrounding
- towns from Zmigród.
- This is the Gestapo from the Jaslo.
- They were the main Gestapo from Jaslo.
- They got their orders from the--
- was in Jaslo, a [? krie ?] Schutzmannschaft.
- He was in charge, like the governor.
- He was in charge on all of this.
- And he gave them the authorization
- and they did the job.
- Finally they came to came to segregation.
- They segregated.
- They picked up 14 people from all this people.
- I was the first to pick me up.
- They picked up most of the young people.
- I already had the idea what will happen here.
- Because we knew what they did to the older people.
- They picked up about 12 people on the side, young ones.
- And then I picked up my hand and I
- said I have a question to this Gestapo.
- And I told them this.
- I have a question to ask.
- He asked me, what do you want to say?
- Then I said, this young man is my cousin.
- His name is Leo Rosner.
- And he was working with me by the [? Fillmore ?] Emit
- Ludwig [INAUDIBLE] And he is a very strong boy.
- When I said this, he had a whip in the hand.
- He start to whip me.
- And then he kicked me.
- And then he told me, take him.
- And I took him out from here to here with me.
- And after this, they took us away.
- They took us away.
- The thing isn't working.
- The time.
- Go ahead.
- They took us away out from the prison to the town Jaslo.
- They took us to the town of Jaslo.
- I knew a guy over there, a Polish guy.
- Which he was in charge of the--
- he was working for a German.
- And he was in charge of all the Jewish furniture, merchandise,
- because it was no more Jews in Jaslo.
- We had to sort it.
- The clothing with all the stuff.
- And every day, we went back to jail to sleep with nobody.
- We had to line up hand by hand and go straight to jail.
- As we were going like this every day from here to jail,
- while I was there we find a lot of stuff
- because everybody had to hide.
- You had to take the clothes.
- Look in the clothes.
- You find thousands and thousands of dollars, diamonds,
- all that kind of thing.
- Well this particular guy, his name was [? Shpuck. ?]
- He was a very nice guy.
- And I knew him from before the war.
- I was very good friends with him.
- A lot of time he asked me, could you give me that?
- I didn't have no need.
- I gave him plenty of money, plenty stuff.
- When I came, we came back to jail,
- I tried to bribe one of these guards
- from jail they should let me go to see my sister.
- Because my sister was there and my friend's mother was there.
- One of these guys tell me if you're going
- to be bring me a golden watch.
- Why.
- I said, how can I bring you a golden watch.
- How would I be able to?
- OK, finally, I brought in a golden watch and I bribed him
- and the next day he came in and he took me with my friend
- and I went to see my sister.
- And he saw his mother with his sister.
- And there were more women in this particular room.
- And this was just one time.
- Then we went end of day to work.
- We come back.
- The rabbi was still here.
- They were all happy.
- And the rabbi used to tell me, Mordechai, I
- see the yeshia going to come.
- I asked him, rabbi, how is the yeshia come?
- Take a look what they did to you.
- Take a look.
- The yeshia going to come.
- I was very believer in this particular man.
- And I believed the yeshia is going to come.
- Any day, we're going to be liberated.
- From whom I did not know.
- But he put in me such a belief.
- I believe what he told me.
- Finally Came Rosh ha-Shanah.
- They didn't let us out anymore from jail.
- No.
- Yes, we did bring out Rosh ha-Shanah.
- We had to pray.
- We prayed.
- We back out from jail.
- Brought in food, and the rabbi still said you see.
- We have food, we have everything here.
- You bring it in everything.
- Succos he said.
- We going to have a Succos here in Jaslo by the rabbi.
- And I was believe what he said.
- We're going to have a Succos here.
- In matter of fact, he said bring--
- he said you bring in everything today
- because you going to keep it.
- We're going to fast.
- We used to bring--
- I used to bring him in all the food what he could eat.
- Yes, and then came Yom Kippur Kol Nidrei.
- Came to Kol Nidrei.
- We had tallis because I brought in tallis from Jaslo,
- what the Jews left.
- Tallis with [? mesalim. ?] And we was praying.
- And praying and crying and I never
- saw a Kol Nidrei like this.
- Finally the Gestapo came in.
- This is at night?
- Kol Nidrei night.
- Yom Kippur night.
- Yom Kippur.
- Came in, was murder.
- There was such a beating.
- It was terrible.
- Everybody?
- Everybody.
- And they ripped off the tallis and they took away
- the [? sitters ?] and they took away the tallasim.
- Then the beating finish.
- Next day, we went back out to work outside again.
- Come back.
- Rabbi said, Mordechai, is coming Sukkos
- We're going to have Sukkos by the rabbi.
- And I still believe it.
- And I tell him, rabbi, look.
- But he says, we still alive.
- We still alive.
- Finally one day I came back.
- Nobody was there.
- How long after Yom Kippur was this?
- This was the second day of [? Chol Hamoed ?] sukkos.
- I came back.
- Nobody was there.
- I asked the guards, he said to put him in another room.
- OK, but you didn't have another choice.
- Next day in the morning, we went back to work.
- We 16 people.
- I saw this guy, [? Shpuck ?] and I tell him,
- [? Shpuck, ?] nobody is inside.
- He said I wanted to tell you something.
- [? Shpuck ?] is a Pole.
- He was working for the German, but he was in charge of us.
- I tell him, I say nobody is here.
- He says I wanted to tell you.
- This yesterday morning, all the people
- in jail including your sister, they
- took them to the forest of Warzyce
- and they all got killed.
- If you don't want to believe me, I'm
- going to take you to a place and you're going to open the door,
- and you're going to recognize the clothing what
- your sister were wearing.
- And you are going to recognize the clothing what
- the rabbi was wearing.
- And the rabbi was wearing clothes which a rabbi in Poland
- was wearing.
- He had a tallis coat and a special one.
- You'll recognize everything.
- What he said, he brought me to a room.
- I opened the door, I went in with my friend Leo Rosner.
- When I opened the door, I found the clothing
- from my sister, the clothing from the rabbi.
- He find a clothing for his mother,
- and he also painted picture.
- His mother had a picture with her with his sister.
- In her pocket.
- And we find this.
- What can I tell you.
- Crying, screaming.
- You could not cry anymore because you
- didn't have any more tears.
- Is we had in our mind that this is the [? yuletide, ?]
- and this is the killing, and this is a forest,
- but I did not know what was going on in this forest.
- That so many people is in the forest.
- That someday I will be able to find a grave.
- Because I didn't know.
- And after this, a couple days later, when they killed them,
- we could not go.
- They did not let us out any more from jail.
- So we had impression that this is going to happen to us.
- The same thing.
- A couple later morning, came a small little truck.
- [COUGHING]
- Excuse me.
- With two guards.
- We went on the truck, and we was going.
- And a few of us wanted to jump to truck.
- Yeah, they said as we go into this forest.
- And we were going and going and finally we
- arrived in another town, Krosno In the front of a police
- station, they came out from over there, the German Gestapo.
- And they told us to get off on the train.
- And this guy, he looked on us and tells--
- Go down from the train?
- Going down from the truck.
- No the train?
- No.
- He looked of us and says is German that we all still good
- for work.
- What this means, we didn't know.
- They told us to go back on the truck.
- and the truck went away.
- And we arrived to a train station in Krosno.
- Coming to the train station there was
- a couple wagons, cattle wagons.
- The doors open.
- And they told us to go on the train, come on the train.
- The Jews bringing from other places.
- From Dukla, from Krosno from all down that
- were working in certain places.
- And this was the end which they assembled all the Jews
- from these places to the camps.
- Well, I found that cousin over there
- in particular in this place.
- And I told my cousin, I told him the story that I was
- in a concentration camp in Kraków.
- And I ran away.
- And I assume that this train goes back to Kraków.
- In the way I said, this happened.
- This train was a couple hundred people bringing us back
- to Kraków.
- But not to the camp.
- To another place, which the name is [? Vola ?] [? Duhotska, ?]
- which this place--
- they were building over there a big hall for locomotive to fix.
- And the guy in charge of this building was a Pole.
- His name was Boris.
- He was a very nice man.
- This is the end of 1942?
- When are we now?
- This is the end of 1942.
- Because it was after the main holidays.
- Yeah, this was the end of 1942.
- And we came over there to [? Vola ?] [? Duhotska ?]
- and we was working over there.
- Everybody work by certain other things.
- Matter of fact, in one of these guards over there.
- He was a guard from the train.
- His name was [? Folska. ?] He used
- to speak Polish and also German.
- He was an invalid.
- He had one hand.
- But he was still in the uniform with a gun here.
- And he used to come in to say sometimes good words.
- And we were thinking that he is maybe one of the good people.
- He used to come in, he used to say in German,
- I would say In English, that after the rain, comes the song.
- In Polish, a better expression.
- We had a lot of trust in this guy.
- But one day he decided there were a few small children.
- He decided to take all the small children into this place
- that we were building.
- It was a hall there, and he shot all the children.
- How many?
- Maybe five, six.
- they were small children.
- I did not see it.
- But this-- we knew from this camp.
- The children were no more there.
- Is after a couple of days, this place,
- they brought us back in to Julag I one where I was.
- In Płaszów?
- In Płaszów.
- And I got back together with my brother,
- which he was still in Płaszów.
- And my friend, Leo Rosner had his father over there.
- Now, I gave him over to his father.
- Because till now I was the father.
- I gave him over to his father.
- And we used to go every day to this [? Vola Duhotska ?] out
- of work.
- Was from Julag was a couple kilometer to there,
- and we used to go every day there to work.
- You walked?
- Walk.
- Walk with guards over there.
- But the Julag, the Kommandant from the Julag
- was at that time Miller.
- He was from the SS, Gestapo, and he
- had other one from the Gestapo.
- Which I cannot recall the names.
- He was a tall man.
- Very, very rough guy.
- He killed many people in this camp.
- Many people.
- As matter of fact, he killed one of my Landsman.
- Yeah, his name was [? Shapseh. ?] [? Shapseh ?]
- [? Hager. ?] He came from Zmigród with me together.
- But he was limping on a leg, but they
- didn't see that he was limping.
- Otherwise they would kill him before.
- And he was on the train rack over there
- selling certain things.
- And Miller came up.
- He saw he was limping.
- He shot him on the place.
- Then he shot on other people in the day.
- He shot one that was his mate.
- He was running on the horses with him.
- He was a killer.
- His mate?
- He had a Jew, which this Jew took care of his horse.
- He had a horse.
- He killed many of the Jewish people.
- Miller?
- Miller.
- Finally, yes, after finally came 1943.
- We were in Julag.
- The typhus broke out in Julag.
- I got sick on the typhus.
- We were, I estimate, about 400, 500 people
- who had the typhus in one room.
- How many were in Julag altogether?
- It was a few thousand.
- It was a considerable percentage of the--
- Yes.
- The typhus was a terrible sickness.
- Temperature run very, very high.
- We were laying.
- There was no medication.
- There was nothing.
- You just need water to drink because the temperature was
- very high.
- And all of kind of rumors came.
- I just know I was laying and one day, they
- said they're going to close up the whole camp because this
- is a disease they wouldn't let out.
- All kind of rumors what happened.
- I just remember I was laying in the room.
- He was coming over to me.
- And I saw my brother was staying by the window.
- He looked at me.
- And came over to me a doctor.
- I knew this doctor.
- His name was Dr. Margulies.
- With glasses.
- A nice man.
- And he came over to me and another one, a German.
- He came over to me and he took my hand
- and he tells me like this.
- He called me by the second name, Findling.
- Findling, I'm going to give you an injection.
- Or you're going to live or you're
- going to go another world.
- He gave me the injection and I fall to sleep.
- I did not know for nothing till the next morning.
- I woke up.
- I woke up.
- I saw the windows were open.
- And they were throwing out people.
- Most of them died.
- They are throwing out people.
- I was laying.
- I was little bit probably better.
- I don't know what happened.
- Why I got there.
- Went through.
- I had over there three Landsman mine.
- Very very strong people, they died from this.
- I was laying another couple of days.
- My brother came in.
- He said come out, otherwise it's going to be no good.
- I couldn't even walk.
- They took me out to my barrack.
- And every day in the morning.
- Two people used to take me, one by this end, one by this end.
- They used to bring me this couple [? mice ?]
- to the [? Vola Duhotska. ?]
- Yeah and I was sitting in the side over there.
- This Pole, Boris, he knew from this thing is the sick people.
- He put inside to peel potatoes.
- Little while till I came a little bit better.
- Then I got sick on the dysentery.
- Got dysentery.
- I had to go back into this particular place.
- The dysentery was murder.
- You couldn't have nothing.
- There's no medication.
- They gave you peels like coal.
- Black coal.
- Didn't help you nothing.
- And screaming.
- It was terrible thing.
- Eventually, everything went all away.
- I got still alive.
- I went back to work.
- Then my brother got sick on typhus again.
- Then he went out.
- Then one day, the whole group from the [? Vole Duhotska] they
- didn't let us out more to work.
- They brought us up to the other camp in Kraków.
- We should call this Płaszów Jerozolimska.
- At this Płaszów Jerozolimska, the main Kommandant was Goeth.
- That's Amon Goeth?
- Goeth, he was--
- I particularly didn't know him.
- I saw him once riding on the horse with a shotgun.
- I just know he was a cruel man.
- He killed a lot of people.
- There was a certain place on this camp which they called
- [? Jurovagula. ?] Is they brought the people over there
- and they killed, they shot them for sport.
- He did a lot of thing over there.
- Over there was like a real concentration camp.
- Yes.
- We didn't go out to work.
- We work in the camp.
- Certain things.
- I was over there a couple months.
- And after a couple months, my brother come up to the camp.
- They took the whole Julag and they brought them up
- to this camp.
- I went to see my brother.
- He came into my barrack.
- And I said to my brother, don't go back.
- Remain here with me.
- But he was very frightened.
- He says, no, I have to go back to my group.
- He went back to his group.
- In a couple hours I heard that the whole group, they're
- sending them out from this camp.
- Didn't know where.
- I went myself voluntarily to the place.
- I wanted to go with them.
- Pole, they didn't let me anymore.
- And they went away.
- I find out later that's to send away to Skarzysko-Kamienna,
- him.
- He died.
- Where's Skarzysko-Kamienna?
- In Poland.
- Is that the name of a town?
- This is the name of the camp.
- The camp.
- Where was it.
- This is the name of the town over.
- Name of the camp.
- I assume it is not far away from Kraków some place.
- How far from Kraków?
- Not too far.
- I don't know, exactly.
- It's not too far.
- He was in this camp.
- I just knew after the war which people told me,
- my Landsman that he got sick of pneumonia.
- He couldn't talk anymore and he died.
- His wanting to go back to his group.
- He was in--
- His group came up from Płaszów to Jerozolimska.
- He came with a group of people.
- Yes.
- And he was in a certain place in this place.
- He was sick at the time?
- No.
- He was not sick.
- He got sick in Skarzysko.
- But he also had typhus.
- Yeah, typhus.
- Recovered.
- Recovered from typhus.
- So he was with his group.
- He was with his group.
- He has recovered and typhus.
- He died in 1944 of pneumonia.
- After a couple months, I was still in Płaszów Jerozolimska.
- My whole group, they closed us up in this particular camp.
- They didn't let us out for I think a couple of days.
- This is 1943.
- 1943.
- And later they said we're going to go.
- In the time when I was working, one they said well rumor
- is that Himmler has to come into the camp.
- And this is going to be the day they going to decide what's
- going to happen with the camp.
- They're going to kill everybody or they're going
- to send the people to work.
- This was just rumors.
- I know my group was working.
- They took us for two days.
- Later they took us out.
- And they told us that we going by train to Czestochawa.
- They give everybody a bread with other things.
- And we were about 500 people.
- But we did not believe.
- Because they always said a lot of things
- and come out different.
- Finally we went on the train.
- We were going on the train.
- I don't remember how long.
- For a couple of day till we arrived to Czestochawa.
- It was almost nighttime when we arrived to Czestochawa,
- they open the cattle doors.
- And there were guards over there,
- and they start to beat us.
- One German came.
- His name was, maybe his name was I think Miller.
- Yeah, he was in a yellow uniform.
- He was from the SR with the swastika.
- And he start to say to the guys not
- to beat us because we come to work here.
- And he stop to beat us.
- And he talked to us and he said that we here
- now in Czestochawa.
- And this is factory.
- What the name was Warta.
- They were making linen over there
- and we going to turn this factory over
- to ammunition factory.
- Finally, the 500 people.
- One of the 500 they make in charge of the 500.
- His name was [? Jolis ?] always also from Kraków.
- He was a German Jew speaking good English.
- He was in charge of this.
- English?
- He speak good German.
- I'm sorry.
- He was in charge in the beginning of the 500.
- And there was a kitchen.
- There were barracks for us to sleep.
- Just men.
- And our work was, in that time, we
- took out the machinery from this place and this place
- and brought in machinery to make ammunition.
- I want to get two spellings.
- You went by train.
- It sounded like you said, to "Cheznahov."
- Czestochawa.
- Correct.
- Czestochawa.
- With a T or with an N?
- Like, I wrote it down.
- C-Z- in Polish you write like this.
- That's C-Z-E-S
- No.
- E-S-T. O-C-H.
- So there's no N.
- No.
- Czestochawa.
- I wrote down Czestochawa Hasag.
- They gave the name Hasag.
- And the reason for Warta because the war there was running.
- But this factory was named Warta Is the name of this.
- Your brother died of pneumonia in what camp was that?
- Skarzysko-Kamienna.
- I wrote this down here, too.
- Skarzysko some place.
- Is that Czestochawa?
- This is Czestochawa.
- Yes.
- All right so let's make sure we have your brother's camp.
- No, he wrote down Skarzysko.
- All right.
- So you're in Czestochawa.
- You're working at the Warta Werk.
- At the Hasag Warta werk.
- Like it says.
- Hasag Warta Werk.
- Yeah.
- All right.
- How long did you work there?
- Well, I worked there from 1943 till 1945.
- So you were there until liberation.
- Till liberation, yes.
- Now, during this time, during this time
- they brought many more Jewish people to this place.
- We were one time a couple thousand people.
- In this Warta Werk They brought people from the Łódż ghetto.
- They brought people from forgot what is the name is.
- They brought people from a lot of places.
- We was a couple thousand people over there.
- In Hasag.
- But in Czestochawa, was another three other camps also
- with Jews besides this one.
- Yeah.
- You arrived at Czestochawa.
- It looks to me like we're talking
- about the summer of '43.
- Of '43.
- I don't know if was the summer.
- Maybe a little bit later than the summer.
- So you are in Czestochawa for about a year and a half
- until liberation.
- Til January.
- That's right, til January.
- That's right.
- Yes.
- How did that year and a half go by?
- The camp by it self was not too bad.
- Food was no problem.
- How come?
- I heard it was so terrible.
- Well not in Czestochawa.
- In Czestochawa we had food.
- There was bread.
- They gave us bread and they gave us soup.
- And in the beginning we were working with Poles, too.
- And some times, everybody found a Pole which
- he brought in a piece of bread.
- How was it?
- How is it that suddenly?
- Happened.
- Like I said, not everybody was like this.
- Happened.
- Happened.
- I don't think there was in Czestochawa
- was any problem with food.
- I don't think it was any problem.
- There was food.
- Particularly, I did not have no problem with food.
- And the routine was pretty normal?
- Was pretty regular.
- A year and a half of work.
- I have work.
- You work every day.
- They needed your work.
- Yes, every day.
- You work from in the morning til the night.
- And at night there was a different shift.
- Sunday I think a half a day.
- I don't remember exactly.
- Later they brought in men, and women, too
- was from other places.
- And the chief of this place, his name, German ISS man.
- His name was Barton Schlager.
- Schlager.
- Barton Schlager.
- He was a German.
- Barton Schlager.
- He was the one what took or kill most of the Jews
- from all the surrounding towns like Czestochawa, Radom, all
- the towns.
- He killed them?
- He was in charge of the killing.
- He was in charge of them.
- This was they spoke about it.
- When I arrive in Czestochawa he was not bad.
- He always used to go around with two dogs.
- We were 500 people and the [? Kolac. ?] [? The Kolac, ?]
- Mongolian.
- 500 Mongolian.
- Because we were the first 500 in Czestochawa,
- and he had a lot of belief in us.
- Because we did a lot of work in there.
- Did you have any idea of what was happening in the war?
- In what?
- In the war?
- What was happening in the war outside the camp?
- Sometimes we did have.
- Like for instance, when the Italian army, the Italian army,
- you know--
- Surrendered.
- Surrendered.
- Then we got terrible beatings.
- It's all the time when something happened, particularly,
- they used to let out to us.
- But the big news was on the Russian front.
- Well on the Russian front we did not know too much.
- We didn't know too much.
- Maybe some people had connections.
- I did not know too much.
- So you were really cut off from the world.
- Yes.
- Cut off from the world.
- I remember one time in this particular camp in Czestochawa
- I had a bread, which I bought this by Pole.
- You still have some money?
- I take of pants, you mingle.
- Yes, I had the bread.
- And I had it underneath of my shirt.
- It was a last Sunday morning.
- He and I was working.
- And a guard, Ukrainian guard, saw this.
- I have something else.
- I called me over.
- And he find by me a bread.
- And the bread was a warm bread.
- He asked me where do you got this bread?
- Then I told him this bread is what they gave to us.
- He said, they don't give you warm bread.
- They give you old bread.
- Finally, I saw I am in a big problem.
- And he says, OK, he went to the barber shop to get a shave.
- In the barber shop was Jewish barbers in this camp.
- I figure he's going to take me over there,
- maybe they will be able to talk him out, he should let me free.
- He didn't want to let me free.
- He brought me back to the station,
- and I had the idea that if this Barton Schlager going to come,
- he's going to see me.
- And he going to kill me on the spot.
- Finally, he came.
- And he saw me.
- And he looked on me.
- He asked me from where I am.
- And I told him I from the 500 from the Mongolian from Kraków.
- As he left me, he did not kill me.
- But I was still in jail in Czestochawa til
- I'm going to tell them where I got this bread.
- All right, we'll have to stop here because we're running out
- of tape.
- Running out of the tape.
- Well, we almost finish.
- We're now ready to continue the story
- that we've left close to three weeks ago.
- Today is December 22, 1992.
- You were telling us that you had been found with a warm bread.
- Warm bread, right.
- And the Ukrainian soldier had turned you
- over to the kommandant of the camp in Czestochowa.
- Czestochowa.
- And the kommandant, [PERSONAL NAME]],],
- was asking you--
- he was going to let you alone, it seems.
- You were in prison already.
- And he was asking you who sold you the bread.
- What happened at that time?
- That time, I said, I will try to find the man.
- Then they called the Jewish police from the camp,
- yes, which the head of the Jewish police, his name
- was Goodstein.
- He came to the station there.
- And he took me out from there.
- While he took me out from there on the other side,
- he had a whip.
- He gave me a few whips.
- And we went in to look for the man.
- I was looking for the man [INAUDIBLE] [? nice ?] hours.
- I said, I cannot find him.
- I don't see him.
- As he let me go, I went back to my job.
- I was working by a machine there making
- this some of the munition.
- He said, he is going to come next day in the morning to me
- again.
- Now, next day in the morning, he came
- from me again was the German, was in charge of the machinery.
- Yeah.
- I went over to him.
- And I tell him, I have to go here and here.
- Yeah, he was very mad.
- Yeah.
- And he said, I'm not going to let you go.
- Yes.
- If this policeman going to come, I'm going to kill him.
- Yes?
- Then I said, I have to go.
- Finally, he came again.
- He took me again.
- And this took a couple days.
- Every day he took me for a couple hours.
- And I went around.
- And I said, I cannot find him.
- Finally, by the end, was, yes, he let me free.
- But this policeman, Goodstein, I knew him very well.
- I was with him together in Jaslo, in this jail.
- I knew him, and he knew me.
- He says to me, in a couple of days,
- said, well, they told me this.
- While you cannot find, then the punishment for you going to be
- 25 whips on your behind.
- And we're going to come into the camp.
- Whenever somebody was supposed to-- was find him something,
- they came into camp at nighttime.
- They wake everybody up.
- And the Jewish police came in, sometime German.
- And there was a bench there.
- You had to bend down, pull down your pants.
- And they whip you.
- Now, I was supposed to get 25 whips
- in the middle of the night.
- Yeah, they called me in.
- And they start to give me whips.
- I screamed, help.
- OK, they gave me.
- The whip went over.
- Yes, and they let me free.
- OK, I went back to work, you know, this, what I was doing.
- Yes.
- And I was free.
- That's it.
- Yes.
- And I was in camp like this till 1945.
- Yeah, in 1945, like in the beginning of--
- no, in December, they took out from our camp
- about 2,000 people.
- And they sent them away, yeah, to some other camp.
- But we had already idea that something is going on here,
- but we didn't know what.
- A lot though German came, guards.
- They surrounded the barracks.
- And the next day, they ran away.
- This was going out for a couple days, was something.
- They knew something, but we didn't know what happened.
- In January, yes, like the 15th of January, this,
- we was remained already--
- I don't know how many--
- 1,500 people.
- I don't remember exactly.
- This [INAUDIBLE] came into the camp.
- And he says, everybody should assemble.
- He going to talk to us.
- And he said, there's the Russian.
- They're near.
- They're near the town.
- And he is going to Germany.
- We should go with him to Germany.
- Otherwise, when the Russian going to come in,
- they're going to kill us because we
- were working making ammunition for the German thing.
- But he didn't have too much time.
- We didn't know so much what is going on
- because a few of the guards were still
- standing at the top of the roof watching us.
- He picked up one of the guys from the camp.
- He was a driver.
- And he took him with him, and they left the came.
- But we did not know what was going on till,
- like, at nighttime.
- At nighttime, came in we heard shots outside,
- came him something, people said.
- They were inside the Russian tank came in.
- And a German was -- they were fighting, and they left.
- Yes.
- But we knew something was going on,
- but we didn't know what was going to happen here
- till, like, in the morning.
- Their guard still was on the top.
- Probably came him something-- there's nobody is in the town,
- no German, no Russian.
- We opened the doors from the camp,
- and we went out to the street, came out.
- There are nice people.
- Whoever could go, go.
- Whoever couldn't go, couldn't go.
- We went out to the street.
- I didn't know the town at all.
- We just was asking for which ways the German went.
- From which way is the Russian going to come?
- People said, the Russian going to come this way.
- OK, we went all in a column to see
- whether Russian they're coming.
- Yeah, and we went a couple of miles.
- We went.
- Finally, the Russian army came.
- I remember a tank came.
- And he stopped.
- He saw a lot of people.
- He came out.
- He ask, who are you?
- Nobody knew the language.
- Yeah.
- Then this I remember.
- I don't know if this is in my dream or this was reality.
- Then came another tank came.
- And he came down.
- And he spoke already Jewish, yes.
- And we told him we are from camp here, yes.
- And he said, well, you go straight here with this road.
- And this and this parts, the Russian already there.
- But we don't know what is going to happen here.
- When I looked around, I saw all over around.
- And the people where my eyes could
- see just Russian tanks all over that around in the side.
- And he went.
- We went.
- And I came to a city.
- We went by bus.
- Everybody went, you know, on the road.
- Finally, I came to Radom, to a big city, Radom.
- Some people remained.
- I went with other people to Radom.
- And we were there for a day or two.
- There was already a Jewish organization.
- They gave us bread.
- You know, we stayed there for a night.
- Then--
- This is still December?
- No, this already January.
- January.
- The liberation, we was already liberated.
- Then from over, that I went to Lublin.
- Yeah.
- In Lublin was already also more Jewish people,
- was a Jewish [NON-ENGLISH].
- They used to give you to eat, yes.
- But I didn't know what I'm going to do.
- But later I said, I'm going to go to back to Zmigród.
- But how I'm going to go there?
- It's very far.
- Your hometown?
- My hometown-- finally, I had a man
- over there is in Lublin, which I recognized him.
- He was from my town, yes.
- And we talked to each other.
- He said he was in Russia, coming back from Russia here.
- Finally, I went to Zmigród.
- Yeah.
- I went.
- I don't know how long it took me to come to Zmigród.
- You know?
- I went.
- I came to Zmigród.
- I came to our town.
- It was Jedlicze then.
- And in this time, in Jedlicze.
- I saw a couple Jewish people over there,
- which was over there one of my relatives over there, too.
- He was hiding by Polish people.
- Yes.
- And I told him, I'm going to Zmigród.
- Yes, I went myself to Zmigród.
- The reason I went to Zmigród is, before we left, yes,
- I put then in the back yard, I make some hole.
- And I put in a golden chain, some rings.
- I figure maybe it's there.
- I'm going to pick it up.
- I have no money.
- I have nothing.
- I went over there.
- And a couple Polish people that, in that time, 1945,
- I met over there--
- this was in the wintertime.
- We start to dig over there.
- They dig.
- I couldn't find nothing there Find it.
- The house--
- Was anybody living in the house?
- Yes, the house stood the way it was.
- I could not go into the house.
- Was living a family over there.
- I couldn't go in they didn't let me go in
- I just went to the backyard from another side and then I said
- to myself, well I had that guy which I gave him out before
- this happened-- yeah, the liquidator, in Zmigród.
- I gave him out six sewing machine
- because my father used to sell sewing machine.
- And the guy told me, if you're going to be in a need,
- come to me.
- When I was in a need, I came to him.
- He want to kill me.
- Then I went away.
- Then I am now here.
- I said, I'm going to him.
- He should give me the machine.
- I have no money.
- I came out to him.
- He looked on me.
- He was shaking.
- Yeah, he saw me.
- And the machine was standing in the room there.
- I said, look, you know me.
- He says, yeah.
- I said, you take the horse and the wagon, I says,
- and the machine and bring it into town.
- He did.
- He was very afraid.
- He did.
- I brought it into town.
- I didn't have whom to sell it even.
- People didn't have money, didn't have whom to sell it.
- Finally, I took the machine to Jedlicze.
- Where was Jedlicze.
- Jedlicze was, I don't know, about 15 kilometer from
- Zmigród, a small town.
- And I sold them over there.
- But the next day, yeah, I saw a Pole from my town.
- And he told me, you're lucky.
- He said, you're lucky you went away.
- The guy what brought you with a machine, he came at nighttime.
- He wanted to kill you.
- You're lucky you went away.
- When I heard this story, I say, there's no place for me
- anymore in Poland.
- I have to leave.
- I try to leave, to go.
- I said my first stop going to be I go to Romania.
- Yeah.
- Everybody ask me, why you go to Romania?
- My father was in the First World War, was a soldier of Romania.
- And he stood in Bucharest.
- And he used to tell us story when I was a kid that he was
- very good for him over there.
- And I said, I go to Romania, see what happened.
- The borders were open.
- You know, you could go.
- I went, took me days.
- I came to Romania.
- I came to Bucharest.
- Yeah, was already, again, Jewish committee over there.
- And you know, it was organized.
- They gave you food.
- They give you eat.
- I sit over there nice, nice couple months over there
- in Bucharest.
- Yeah.
- And then, you know, they was talking
- that the Russian, the communists,
- are going to try to give a grip more on Romania.
- You wouldn't be able to leave anymore.
- My next trip was I'm going to go to Italy, yes.
- I went from Romania, went to Hungary, Czechoslovakia,
- Austria, all going, you know, by train, by bus, keeping going.
- You're alone this whole time?
- No, with other people, were other people going to--
- I didn't know.
- People were going, you know, like everybody.
- You go.
- The border's still open, you go.
- I came to Italy.
- I came to Italy, in Italy, to a town.
- The name was Padua, a big town.
- Yeah, it was over there a camp, you know, for Jewish people,
- which they came, organized over there.
- And they gave you to eat, food, there.
- Yeah, I was a little bit in this town.
- And later, you know, I went out of the camp.
- And I had some money.
- I took myself with a friend an apartment over there.
- And I was waiting to go to the United States
- because I had here relatives.
- My mother had here two sisters.
- I had cousins here.
- I was in contact with them.
- They told me I should wait till eventually I'd
- be able to come here, but took very long time.
- I did not have too much patience over there to wait.
- As I said to myself, well, I am going to Israel.
- Yes, in 1946, yes, I went with a Jewish organization,
- you know, with the Haganah, you know.
- Excuse me.
- You knew already that you had no immediate family left?
- Yes, I knew I don't have anybody anymore because I
- didn't look for family.
- Because I know my family's destroyed,
- was all killed in Zmigród.
- Yes.
- I didn't know.