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Oral history interview with Lillian Ross

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1993.A.0088.159 | RG Number: RG-50.002.0159

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    Oral history interview with Lillian Ross
    Transcript
    [MUSIC PLAYING]
    Good afternoon.
    My name is Bernard Weinstein, and I
    direct the Kean College oral testimonies project,
    the Holocaust Resource Center.
    We are affiliated with the Video Archives
    for Holocaust Testimonies at Yale University.
    Sharing the interview with me is Melissa Silverman.
    And we are privileged to welcome Lillian Ross, a survivor
    presently living in Union, who has generously volunteered
    to give testimony about her experiences
    before, during, and after the Holocaust.
    Mrs. Ross, I'd like to welcome you.
    Thank you.
    I'd like to begin by asking you to tell us
    a little bit about the town or city where you lived.
    What it was called, and its population, and other things
    about it that are important.
    I was born in Łódź, Poland.
    Łódź was called Polish Manchester because it was
    a very industrial city, mostly textile,
    but also other industries.
    It was the second city which had the biggest Jewish population
    after Warsaw, about quarter of a million Jews lived there.
    And it had the reputation of a wealthy city because, I think,
    it was about the first and only larger
    town which had no river nearby.
    And also the smoke from the factories
    made the air very polluted.
    However to me, it was my hometown
    and I lived there with my parents.
    What did your father do?
    My father had a machinery business.
    Also sold construction and building materials,
    rails, boilers.
    This was a line that his family work for generation,
    and his father was in this line, and so was he.
    Was your mother involved in that business also?
    Yes.
    Yes, my mother came from Warsaw.
    From a Jewish prominent family because her grandfather
    was the chief rabbi of Poland, Harav Zvi Perlmutter.
    She was his oldest granddaughter.
    His distinction was that he was the first Jewish representative
    to the so-called Sejm, which was equivalent to American
    Congress.
    And he was also a personal friend
    of Marshal Pilsudski, who, about World War I,
    was in charge of the country.
    And he had a secular as well as a religious education?
    Yes, he did.
    He was a self-made man.
    He spoke several languages.
    Because I remember as a child, I came there.
    He was, at that time a very, very old man
    sitting like on a throne with a big tube.
    He was probably hard of hearing, so you
    had to talk to him through the tube.
    And he was discussing with my mother.
    He asked her what she was reading, some German and French
    literature.
    And thanks to his position, my mother
    was able to go to a Russian gymnasium, which
    was at that time unheard of.
    For the Jewish girls, she was very well educated.
    And that was our luck because she placed a great emphasis
    on education.
    And although she has only girls--
    we were four girls.
    They were trying desperately to have a son but none came.
    She felt that the daughters should be as well educated
    as sons.
    And we always, since kindergarten,
    we went to private Jewish excellent schools.
    Obviously, with your grandfather as a distinguished rabbi,
    you must have had a great emphasis
    in your home on religion, on Jewishness.
    Yes.
    Tell us a little about that.
    Actually, our whole life revolved
    around Jewish holidays.
    There was that tremendous stimulation and excitement
    before Passover or before the Jewish new year.
    Which for the children is really, very exciting,
    and means so much.
    And Hanukkah, of course, with the gifts was our favorite.
    But, however, my parents being in business
    had to be also secular.
    To each other, they spoke Yiddish.
    Mostly when they didn't want us to understand
    what they were talking about.
    But at home, the Polish language was spoken.
    And my father, who was a Hasid when he married my mother,
    had to change into civilian clothing
    to be able to conduct business with Polish people and German
    who didn't like Hasidim.
    Did he feel, in any sense, compromised by this?
    Or was he uncomfortable in that--
    I imagine that in the beginning, he probably did.
    But that must have been when I was very young.
    Ever since I remember him, he was in civilian clothing.
    But my both grandfathers wore the traditional black garb
    and hats, so.
    What proportion of the people in Łódź were Jewish at the time
    you were growing up?
    I would say it was at least half.
    I don't know exactly, but in my own world, was 90%.
    Because we lived in a predominantly Jewish
    neighborhood.
    There were some Polish people.
    But the ones that I came in contact with,
    to be frank with you, was only the janitor of our apartment
    house, and the workers who worked for my father.
    So, of course, they were very nice to us
    because they worked for my father.
    And so was the janitor who was tipped very generously.
    And I really lived mostly in a Jewish world.
    Our neighbors were mostly Jewish.
    I went to Jewish school.
    And I really thought--
    I, frankly, did not experience anti-Semitism
    until I was about 14 years old, and there
    was a parade on the 3rd of May, which
    is a great national holiday in Poland.
    And the Jewish schools were parading separately.
    And that was already before the war,
    about two years before the war, when
    the anti-Semitism was growing.
    Were they parading separately by their own choice,
    or by some edict--
    No.
    That's how they were assigned.
    There was a dancing also.
    We danced in separate circles.
    So at that time, as I was parading,
    I heard for the first time--
    people were lined up on both sides of the street,
    and as we parade by, they were shrieking at us,
    get out from Poland!
    This was--
    We don't want--
    --the Jewish contingent that they were shrieking at?
    Yes.
    Yes.
    We don't want Jews in Polish schools.
    Because there were some schools that also
    had Jewish people in them, government schools.
    So that was a great shock to me.
    When you were asked to march separately,
    when they had assigned it so the schools marched separaterly,
    were you aware at that time that that
    might have been anti-Semitism?
    Or it wasn't until you were in the parade
    and heard the shouts?
    No.
    I knew that we were second-class citizens.
    I knew it from very early.
    How?
    I think my first experience was when
    I was playing with a Polish girl, who
    was a daughter of a policeman.
    And we got in some kind of an argument,
    and she told me that, my God stinks.
    Which made me very mad, and I said, if my God stinks,
    your God stinks too.
    And then I left, and came home, and told my mother about it.
    And my mother got very pale, and she said, gosh,
    what you talking about?
    You're going to bring misfortune on our family.
    I said, but she said it first.
    If she insulted my God, couldn't I insult her God?
    So my mother said, no.
    We don't live in our country.
    This is Poland.
    This is their God and this is their country.
    And don't you ever dare to say anything like that.
    And right away you knew that you were Jewish not Polish.
    And then right away, I realized that we are not
    as good as the Polish people, and that our God is inferior,
    and that I better keep my mouth shut.
    And your parents had already absorbed that idea themselves.
    Yes.
    My parents, of course, went through the World War I,
    and a lot of persecution from the Russians,
    and from the Germans, and then from the Polish people.
    And they were used to this, and they lived with it
    the best way they could.
    So after this parade in May that you refer to,
    when they started shouting those words at you,
    did things get worse progressively?
    Or did they stay the same or did they diminish for a while?
    No, there was a increase in anti-Semitism.
    In the papers, first of all, because there was also
    increase of Nazism in Germany which was very close to us.
    Right before the war, there was the famous pogrom in Przytyk
    that the Jewish people tried to defend themselves,
    and they were all sentenced while the Polish people went
    free.
    Also they forbade the Jewish people
    to slaughter ritually the cattle.
    And we, most of the Jews, were strictly kosher,
    and they couldn't eat--
    that was not slaughtered this way.
    Now this was done by the Poles themselves.
    That was done by the Poles themselves.
    With the growth of Nazism in Germany, the element--
    I mean, Poland was always a very anti-Semitic country.
    But, luckily as a child, I didn't feel too much of it
    because our parents tried to shelter us
    from the outside world.
    That's how we grew up.
    The whole security, everything that meant to us
    was the family, and later on, the school
    which was also Jewish.
    And the outside world was hostile,
    was that something that we were afraid of.
    So your parents didn't speak very much about these things
    to you unless the subject--
    We could hear them sometimes discussing problems
    in business, where my mother who didn't look Jewish--
    she was blond and had blue eyes--
    was really the one who-- my father was the expert,
    but she was the one who was conducting the business.
    And as a matter of fact, we had one French--
    German, I'm sorry, German customer, a very big customer.
    He had a very big factory of swimwear.
    He would come by car, stop in front of our business,
    and his chauffer would go and get my mother with a notebook,
    and she had to sit there and write the order.
    He wouldn't go into the Jewish business.
    So that gave us an idea that the German people didn't like it
    and neither did the Polish.
    If you had wanted to or your family
    had wanted to leave Poland at that time--
    they saw that it was getting really bad.
    And they felt they could leave the business,
    would they have been able to?
    My mother's friend, when I was still a little girl,
    went to Palestine.
    And when she went, my mother asked
    her to find out how it is there, and maybe we will go there too.
    However, she wrote very--
    that, you have to understand was probably in the--
    I was only a very little child, so it must
    have been the '20s, some time.
    And the life in Palestine was very, very hard.
    She wrote to my mother that she had to wash her own clothes,
    that she has to clean, that she has to cook.
    And my mother did not do any of those things.
    She was a businesswoman, and we always had a housekeeper
    and governesses.
    So, of course, my mother said, how could I do that?
    And that was about the only time--
    and then the whole--
    our family had nobody that lived abroad.
    From my father's side and from my mother's side,
    they all lived in Poland, and they are all quite comfortable.
    So there was no frame of reference or comparison
    how people live someplace else.
    And then we were all very voracious readers.
    And I read a lot of books about America like Jungle.
    The American, it seemed to me that I was in heaven compared
    to old-fashioned books, which also were very bad,
    and our life was very comfortable in many ways.
    So your family had to put up with the anti-Semitism,
    and so could you?
    Yeah.
    Yeah, they always did, and they felt that's the way of living.
    And that's how we lived.
    What was life like for you as a student in school?
    Were there any overtures of anti-Semitism from the teachers
    or--
    No.
    --any other people?
    It was a purely Jewish school.
    The secondary school you went to was Jewish also?
    Yes.
    We always went to private schools,
    which were quite expensive.
    But all the teachers were Jewish.
    And the only one thing was that when
    I graduated, which was in summer of 1939,
    I had to go to a very--
    I graduated from a humanistic lyceum.
    And in order to do so, there was a delegate from the government
    sent to the Jewish schools.
    They did not trust the Jewish schools.
    And they were there.
    They gave first a written--
    there were a whole week of written tests
    in different subjects, like Latin, math, history,
    and German, and so on.
    And then the delegate personally interviewed
    each girl on their--
    because that was only a girls school.
    It was not a co-educational school.
    And very often, good students who got nervous
    could fail, which was very unfair but that's how it was.
    Did your sisters attend the same school that you did?
    Yes.
    All my sisters attended.
    And my mother, for a number of years,
    was the president of the PTA because we had the only four--
    and quite well-known in that school, I have to say,
    because each one was talented in one way or another.
    I was in charge of the theater.
    Every month, we had theater parties
    where I wrote songs and plays, and my sisters would perform.
    Did you also act?
    I didn't act too much, but my sisters
    were terrific dancers and singers, and played violin.
    And I mostly directed them.
    So you had a lot of outlets here.
    Yes, I did.
    School was, for me very, very important.
    Next to my family, which was represented
    my whole life and my security.
    It was the school that was very important.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    I'm sorry.
    I was just going to ask, that was a very happy time for you
    then?
    Yeah, it certainly was.
    I was totally fulfilled as a child.
    Go ahead.
    Were you planning also, at the time
    the war broke out, on going to college or university?
    Yes.
    Yes, my mother made some arrangements.
    I was supposed to go to Belgium because--
    I forgot to tell you that-- at that time also,
    it was very hard for Jewish people
    to go to Polish universities.
    The Jewish student had to sit separately.
    But they formed like a ghetto.
    And they used to beat them, you know, before they entered.
    And there were increasing numbers
    of anti-Semitic measures against the Jews.
    And they tried to discourage the Jews
    from getting higher education, because most
    of the intelligentsia in Poland was Jews--
    the doctors, the lawyers, the teachers.
    At what point did you first feel yourself in real danger?
    Actually, when we went--
    the summer, 1939, was the first summer
    that we did not go away--
    far away.
    You know, because usually we went with my school
    to the mountains or to the shore.
    They had some kind of a camp, you know?
    But this summer, it was like the war was already in the air,
    and my mother was afraid we should go way too far.
    So we rented a summer place.
    And the news got worse and worse,
    and people were preparing for actual war, and digging
    trenches.
    We decided to come back home.
    And we hired like a droshki that's with a horse--
    a buggy, yeah?
    And as we were sitting with the horse and buggy,
    and going back to Łódź.
    A lot of peasants, Polish peasants,
    were standing on the roads like that, and saying,
    that's the last good--
    of your good time that you're going to have.
    Now Hitler's going to get even with you.
    You won't go no more for summer vacation.
    That was the first time I realized that we truly
    have to be afraid, not only of the Germans coming, but also
    of what the Polish people would do to us.
    And I didn't realize that their hatred was so terrible.
    That's what I was going to ask you.
    Your mother said you were preparing for war.
    Did she-- did you have an understanding
    that the war was an anti-Semitic act?
    Or did you just think, there's a war in Europe,
    and we're going to be involved in this war?
    Of course, I read the papers.
    So I knew that the Germans--
    I mean Hitler was talking and threatening to kill the Jews.
    But it seemed to us that he was a lunatic,
    and that that was very unrealistic.
    How could you kill 250,000 Jews in a town?
    That seemed to us unbelievable.
    But of course, after the Germans came,
    and they started day after day different measures,
    and they were catching people like dogs in the street,
    and torturing them, and taking to all kinds of labor that
    didn't even make sense, then we realized that we were trapped.
    Can you describe for us the first days of the war for you?
    Of course.
    First of all, there was bombing.
    And we all came to my grandmother,
    my father's mother, who had a big apartment house.
    And we stayed.
    And she has also a very large apartment.
    So my father and two of his sisters with children--
    they had two small--
    one had two small boys.
    One had a boy and a girl, still infants.
    We came and stayed with my aunt.
    And every time-- with my grandmother--
    there was bombing, we had to run down and sit in the cellar.
    And it was very frightening.
    This was the first time you did that?
    Yes, yes.
    It was very frightening, but it didn't take too long.
    And Łódź was not touched at all by the bombs--
    very, very-- almost nothing.
    Because they planned right away to make it a German town.
    So they didn't want to do anything.
    Because of the industry, or because of its closeness
    to the border?
    Because of the large number of Germans who lived.
    There.
    I was going to say, the people were supporting--
    it's amazing to me that Poland didn't want Germany
    to take over as a country.
    Poland was defending itself against Germany.
    Yet they were happy that Hitler was coming in,
    because now the Jews were going to get it.
    I'm talking about peasants.
    Yeah.
    I'm talking about the peasants.
    But of course, later on, it turned out
    that that was also an opinion of a majority
    of Polish people, at least the ones that I got in touch with.
    Because they were-- even in the camps,
    when we were in the same boat, so to speak,
    they were very anti-Semitic.
    If they could discuss in front of us,
    say, the first sign when the war will be over
    will be when they take out the Jews and kill them,
    then we will know that the war is over.
    Right in front of us they said that with great joy.
    They didn't have to hide it anymore.
    It was as though--
    Yeah.
    No, I mean that was--
    they were gloating.
    They were gloating.
    And they were in the same boat, starving just like we did.
    Did they blame you for that?
    I don't know whether they blamed us.
    But you know, my last camp, where I was unfortunately
    assigned to a stube, which is like a room where there was--
    we had no place to sleep, just on the floor.
    That was so-called the Polish stube which the Polish people
    were sitting under the walls, and the Jewish people
    were in the middle.
    And we were pushed with feet from one direction to another.
    So you know, the one on the right side pushed us
    to the left side.
    And they were entertaining us with all kinds of stories about
    how the Jews--
    one woman was telling how, as a child,
    she almost got killed because a man with a big beard
    and a long nose wanted to give her a candy.
    And it was a lucky thing that her mother warned her,
    because otherwise he would kill her and take
    the blood for a matzoh.
    And this was-- this was already--
    That was already almost the end of the war.
    And it still went on?
    That's right.
    Let's go back to the beginning of the war.
    You were living with-- in your grandmother's apartment?
    Yeah, after the Germans, for a while, came in,
    my father decided, you know, that it
    was better we should move to my grandmother's apart--
    no, that was-- I was telling you about bombing.
    That was temporary.
    But later, we moved to one of her apartments.
    This was still in Łódź?
    That was in Łódź, yeah.
    And how long did you did you live there with her?
    I think it was probably late November or December
    when we were deported.
    And during that time, you didn't experience
    much of the havoc of--
    We just sat home.
    We were afraid to go out.
    Because once, I went and they caught me.
    And they beat me up, and I had to scrub the toilets.
    And that was a terrible experience.
    So since then, I was afraid to go out.
    So you knew what was happening to Jews on the streets.
    Yes, I knew what was happening.
    I knew that some of my friends, a newly married couple,
    the Germans came to them and forced
    them to perform all kinds of sexual acts,
    and were sitting there and laughing.
    And later on, those people who are very much in
    love before, just the man ran away to Russia
    and left the woman.
    So I knew those things were-- every day was something new.
    Did you have to wear-- when you went out in public,
    you had to wear the star?
    Yes, the yellow.
    We had to wear the yellow.
    But still, my father was still in his business.
    And he went every day there.
    And we thought we will just suffer through
    like everything else.
    Because my mother was telling us stories about the World War I.
    And she said they suffered plenty,
    but the things went away and she was all right.
    So the few weeks that I spent in Łódź,
    that was before the ghetto.
    They didn't [INAUDIBLE].
    Every day there was a new sign on the street.
    The doctors can't treat Gentiles,
    the factories will be taken over by the Germans,
    all kinds of things that were just making life very,
    very difficult. But we were trapped.
    We were there.
    Until one morning when we were still in bed,
    my father went to the business.
    And it was just lucky that we were all at home,
    including a maid.
    And the door opened, and my father
    walked in very pale, and behind him two SS men.
    And they said, you have half an hour.
    Pack just your personal belongings.
    And they took the money from my father's,
    you know, whatever my father gave them, and gave
    50 marks for each person.
    And then, they walked us to my grandmother's house,
    which was a very big--
    tremendous, big apartment house.
    There were, I would say, maybe hundreds.
    And all the people looking and crying because they
    saw us with the SS men going out.
    They didn't know what's going to happen to us.
    And they took us to a place where we met a lot--
    I met some of my teachers, a lot of very prominent people
    of Łódź.
    They were all-- and we had to go through a search.
    And my mother had a diamond ring that she was wearing.
    And she dropped it.
    You know, she said a jar with honey.
    She dropped it, and we went through.
    But they searched us totally, took anything
    that they wanted, and then they--
    These were SS men in uniform?
    SS men in uniforms.
    And they packed us in train.
    In a-- not a--
    you know, how do you call it?
    A train for transport, that--
    Were these the cattle cars they used?
    The cattle car.
    Yeah, that's what I wanted to say.
    With no windows, with no ventilation?
    No windows, no ventilation.
    And we were going like that, I don't know for how long.
    Because the time seemed of no consequence at that time,
    until we stopped at one spot and we saw the sign Debica
    It must have been at least two days that we were traveling.
    And that was in the evening.
    And we came to the station.
    And then we saw people running with big--
    with coffee and sandwiches.
    And those were the Jewish people who lived in that small town
    who were notified by the Germans that a transport of Jews from
    Pol-- from Łódź is coming, and they should take care of us.
    They tried to do their best.
    They assigned each family to very modest places.
    But still, we slept on the floor there someplace.
    And a lot of people, who were able
    somehow to get out some money--
    we didn't any, except the diamond
    ring which my mother had--
    decided that they're going to stay there.
    So they took you out of a large city like Łódź,
    and put you in to a small--
    To general government.
    You see, Łódź was already considered Third Reich.
    They named it Litzmannstadt.
    Yes.
    But the ghetto was not-- when I left, there was no ghetto yet.
    But the first thing was, they got rid of all the people
    who could pose some resistance, like the intelligentsia.
    They caught them all.
    I met some of my teachers.
    And they were just-- at night, they came to them,
    and they grabbed them, and took them, just like us,
    with 50 marks for a head.
    And did all these people go to Debica?
    Or did they--
    No, all-- our transp--
    I don't know what the other one.
    But our transport, which was one of the first ones to leave
    Łódź, went to Debica.
    And there, they just let us free.
    They told us, do whatever you want to do.
    And my father, having inheritance in Radom--
    a house-- decided that we should go to Radom.
    Although, his sister lived in Warsaw.
    But when he called up her, she told him
    that the whole family came running to her.
    They all got very scared, and they moved--
    at that time, you could still move somehow.
    Later on, the border was closed.
    And they stayed with her, and she says
    she has no room for six people.
    And we had the maid also, who we had to let her go.
    And we gave her half of the money that we had.
    Up to that time, your maid stayed with you?
    Yes, she was-- the SS man gave her a choice.
    He said, you can go.
    You are not on the list.
    Right.
    The list, as we found out, was--
    we were added to the list by my father's competitor,
    who was Gauleiter--
    became a Gauleiter of Łódź.
    And he wanted our business.
    And that was the reason why we were in that transport.
    Because they demanded-- they told my father that this
    oberster fuhrer wants a list of people to whom--
    who owe my father some money.
    He not only wanted the business, he also
    wanted to collect all the debts.
    And he was a German?
    German, yeah.
    So of course, my father said that nobody owes him any money.
    And we came to Radom.
    That was in December of 1939.
    And we were able to get one large room in this house.
    And we lived there.
    But of course, from the--
    Was this a private house or an apartment house?
    That was like a little apartment house that--
    right next door to us was a historical house
    that King Casimir built for his lover--
    Jewish lover, Esterka.
    So it was in a historical, like, place on a [INAUDIBLE]..
    It was an apartment house.
    But in order to get to the big room, which was a front room,
    we had to go through two rooms in which a very poor family
    lived.
    And they really-- thanks to my mother, they didn't starve.
    Because whatever we had, we tried to share with them.
    And my father, who was really-- we were left without anything.
    But he didn't give up.
    There were few iron foundries in this town, and he went to them.
    And they knew him, because they did some business with him
    before.
    And they employed him as a salesman.
    They gave him a pass.
    Because at that time, the Jews had
    to have a pass if they wanted to leave the city.
    And he was able to go around and buy machinery and parts
    for the foundry.
    And he was really able to make a living,
    because we didn't starve like other people did in Radom.
    And we were still able to help, like, that family that
    was living next to us.
    How long did you stay in Radom?
    And how long-- or in this particular location.
    In March '41, Radom became a ghetto.
    When we came, there was no ghetto yet.
    Right.
    The Jews were not permitted to go on certain streets,
    but there was no definite ghetto.
    You know, there was-- and you had
    to wear a band, a white band with a blue star.
    And I was arrested once, and went through terrible things.
    Why?
    I was walking in the street.
    I forgot to put it on.
    And a Polish young boy grabbed me.
    And then, there were some SS men coming.
    And he told me that--
    they knew who was Jewish and who wasn't.
    And I was taken to a police station and given like a order
    to appear there.
    And of course, I went--
    the whole family went through a terrible time
    the few days until I had to appear.
    And my mother went with me, and she explained
    that I just simply forgot it.
    And I was lucky that was a police station,
    and we just paid the fine and they let me go.
    But in March '41, they formed the ghetto in Radom.
    Radom was a completely different town than Łódź.
    It was a much smaller town.
    But very, very-- had a lot of industry,
    mostly leather tanneries, shoe stores.
    But they also had ceramic factories.
    And they also had iron foundries.
    So, and there were about 10,000 Jews.
    So of course, our experience was comp--
    for the first time, really, I saw what Jewish society meant.
    Because in Łódź, I didn't really have too much to do.
    All I knew was my family and my school.
    But there was a very closely-knit society
    with a real peck order, you know?
    There were rich people who were supporting the poor people.
    And they were quite well organized.
    And they were able to somehow cooperate with the Germans.
    Was there a Judenrat there?
    Yes, they were like a Council of Elders.
    And they were collecting money from the people who could pay
    and sending the poor people like to work, you know?
    At least there was some kind of a possible existence,
    not-- really not too bad until the ghetto.
    The ghetto, then we came--
    we saw a lot of starvation there, and epidemic--
    Did you have any forewarning of the ghetto coming?
    No.
    One day, just there was a sign on this
    that all Jews from those districts
    had to move within 10 days.
    And the rich people had not such a hard time,
    because they exchanged apartments
    with the Polish people.
    Of course, the poor people had a hard time.
    They would have to be assigned someplace.
    And there wasn't much room, because at that time,
    the population--
    Jewish population swelled.
    There was a big group of people from Łódź like us.
    And there were also people from adjoining small towns
    that felt more secure.
    So it was at least 35,000 people by that time in Radom.
    [SIGHS DEEPLY] So--
    Was your family able to stay together during this period?
    Yeah, we stood together all the time.
    And we even were able to employ somebody, you know,
    because my mother was not a housekeeper.
    She didn't know how to cook.
    She never cooked, she never--
    so we had somebody who was doing it,
    everything in that one room.
    But it was a very happy room, because, you know, socially, it
    was like a gathering.
    A lot of Radom, young people from Radom came there.
    And we were sitting, and talking, and joking.
    You know, it was--
    we had a nice social life.
    Except that in the evening, they all
    had to leave, because they were not
    allowed to walk the streets.
    But of course, in the ghetto, things got much worse.
    But still, my father was still able to make a living,
    without anything.
    Were you and your sisters able in any way
    to continue your education, or read, or--
    No, we were-- not only we weren't
    able to continue our education, but we were giving lessons.
    I was giving lessons to a group of younger girls than me,
    because I had a certain degree, you know?
    And my sister was really still a child herself.
    But she was very precocious and brilliant.
    She had a group of young girls.
    And as a matter of fact, one of her students,
    her husband is very active in the Holocaust--
    Roman Kent.
    That was her student.
    And her sister was my girlfriend in school.
    So we were both giving lessons-- everything in that one room.
    We made sure that the schedule--
    I'm giving lessons this end.
    Those children were really very eager to learn--
    very eager to do-- the ones that I had and she had,
    we always compared notes.
    Because that was the only stimulation that they had.
    What was the morale of your parents at this time?
    My mother was very depressed, because she left her family.
    She was very attached to her father.
    And if she really could take him with us, she would.
    But as it happened, she couldn't at that time.
    So we were constantly--
    at that time, there were still letters from Łódź.
    And he wrote us that my grandmother
    died of intestinal problems.
    This was the one in whose apartment
    you had stayed earlier?
    No, no.
    That was my mother's father.
    I didn't have a grandmother-- a grandfather
    from my father's side.
    He died.
    So you know, we still were able to send money to Łódź,
    because there was a woman whose daughter made, maybe,
    money there or something.
    So we were paying the money to the mother.
    And the daughter was giving the money to my grandfather.
    And we were supporting him all the time.
    And when Radom became a ghetto, how did your lives really
    change dramatically?
    Then, it really was--
    although, we still lived in the same one room.
    Because we were lucky.
    This was the part of the ghetto where we lived.
    But then, a few months later, they
    decided to make workshops, in this [INAUDIBLE] where
    we lived, for the German shops, you know, of tailors.
    Because they had a lot of tailors, milliners, and others.
    So we had to vacate this room.
    And we were able to get a room in a hotel--
    a small room in a hotel.
    But that was very shortly before the liquidation of the ghetto.
    Of the Radom ghetto?
    Yeah, so that was the first time that my mother
    cooked a soup for us.
    And we all enjoyed and praised her.
    And she said, I maybe--
    now I feel that I maybe missed something in my life
    by not being able to serve my family in this way.
    But she was an excellent mother.
    She was really a friend.
    She was a friend of ours, because she was so young.
    She was only seventeen.
    She was almost your contemporary in some ways.
    She was very young.
    So she was more of a friend to us.
    And all my friends, really, were envious of our relationship
    to my mother.
    It was so advanced.
    She was really--
    When the ghetto was liquidated, what
    was the first thing that happened?
    I mean, where were you?
    What happened?
    The ghetto was liquidated--
    there were two ghettos.
    There was a small ghetto in Glinice,
    and a larger one where we were on Wałowa.
    And they were already--
    my father went to Warsaw on business,
    and came very distraught, because they
    said there are transports of Jews going from Warsaw,
    and nobody knows where.
    And it's a terrible situation.
    And my grandmother was in the hospital.
    And they took her from the transport-- for the transport.
    So he was very upset.
    And then, we started to get letters from other family
    members from different towns, saying,
    maybe you will be saved.
    But it looks like we are going to go, and we don't know where.
    Please remember my child is in this labor camp.
    Everybody asked us to do something for them.
    And we were alone kept in the Radom ghetto.
    And that was on August 5, 1942, at night,
    the Glinice ghetto was liquidated.
    And then, they still missed 2,000 people.
    They had room for 2,000 people more.
    So they came early in the morning.
    And everybody ran out.
    And luckily, we were in the back, because they
    took the first 2,000.
    And that's how we were saved.
    But then we knew that the situation was very bad.
    Nobody knew where the people went.
    But everybody knew, we don't want
    to go there, no matter what.
    And people started-- there were a lot
    of weddings, people that before were just going around married.
    All women cut their hair short in case of a transport,
    because they didn't want to have long hair on account of lice.
    You knew where you might be going.
    No.
    We knew it was a resettlement--
    resettlement.
    And we were resettled once from Łódź.
    So we believed it will be something like that again.
    No, we didn't know nothing.
    Well, you would have your own quarters at least.
    But you thought that this would be another town, another city,
    another ghetto even?
    Yes, we couldn't even imagine.
    But my mother-- my mother somehow had the feeling.
    And she used-- being in this business, when there were
    leftover iron pieces, they used to take it for smelts,
    to melt it down.
    She said, I think they're going to make smelts out of us.
    And she said, maybe we should all die-- at least
    let use die together.
    And we had guests in that little room in that hotel.
    She said, let's all take sleeping pills,
    and we going to kill -- we're going to die together.
    But of course, we were very young.
    We got to live.
    And we were very angry with my mother
    for even entertaining a thought like that.
    We believed, and we were raised, with retributive justice.
    The god rewards you when you are good and punishes
    when you are bad.
    And I said to my mother, I didn't do anything wrong!
    As much as I search my soul, I can't think of anything
    that I did that is against my conscience.
    So why should I be punished?
    Why should I die?
    And so we didn't listen to my mother.
    But a lot of people committed suicide at that time,
    because they felt that--
    not because they felt how horrible it will be.
    But they just didn't want to leave their hometown.
    They were older people, sick people,
    and they were just afraid of being uprooted.
    And they figured out that will be the best way out.
    Yeah.
    And at that time, when that little ghetto in Glinice
    was liquidated with 2,000 people from the big ghetto,
    we knew already something is coming.
    Lillian, we're going to have to stop at this point
    to take a short break to change the tape.
    We continue our interview with Lillian Ross.
    You spoke about liquidation for Radom.
    What do you mean by liquidation?
    That means that from 30-some thousand people.
    I don't know how many, maybe I think 3,000.
    I'm not sure about the figures.
    But at least 90% of people were sent by train.
    We didn't know where.
    And only a small amount of the lucky ones remained.
    So you remained in the beginning?
    Yes, I remained by pure chance and luck.
    I was in the line for the selection, where
    the assessment at least took a look at my arbeits card.
    You know, I was working for the shops.
    And it said that I was a tailor, a dressmaker, you know.
    And he let me and my sister go to the right at least,
    to the people that stayed.
    However, my mother was taken to the left.
    And so were most of our friends.
    Whole families were wiped out completely.
    What about your father and your sisters?
    My father was-- first he was working
    at that time for the waterwork.
    And first, he, you know, was supposed to stay there.
    Everybody was, you know, when that thing happened, of course,
    we knew something was coming.
    There was a premonition of doom.
    And everybody was trying to escape the ghetto.
    However, we didn't know anybody.
    We were not from Radom.
    We had no contact with any Polish people there.
    Whoever somehow could maybe.
    But the experience was such that a lot of them had to come back.
    Because the Polish people were afraid to keep them.
    They were risking their lives, too.
    So my father came back to the ghetto.
    And my older sister and my sister, Helen, they were--
    stayed in their working place, you know, overnight.
    So they didn't have to go through what we did.
    So it was just my mother and my father, me,
    and my younger sister, Eva.
    When we went to the left, we saw already my father there.
    Then I looked and I saw that my mother
    was in the line, while the SS men were just not even looking
    at the arbeits card.
    They were just-- tore everything up
    and gave everybody a knock over the head.
    They were very drunk.
    And put everybody to the left.
    And thus my mother went to the left.
    And then I saw my neighbor's daughter who was left alone.
    Everybody went to the right, and she was alone.
    A young girl who suffered, really.
    And she went to my mother.
    And my mother embraced her, and that's how they both went.
    Did you get to say goodbye?
    No.
    No, not even across the--
    like goodbye, nothing.
    Nothing, nothing.
    That was the last I saw of her.
    But of course, at that time, I didn't realize what
    a terrible fate she went to.
    And I didn't realize.
    But that was, in a way to me--
    that liquidation of the ghetto was, to me, what would you say?
    The Apocalypse Now.
    That was the end of the world as I knew it.
    Did you know where she was taken?
    No.
    We just knew they took them by train.
    And on the way to the train, they left a lot of corpses.
    But I mean, at least nobody told me whether she was one of them.
    Whoever couldn't walk fast or this was just shot on the spot.
    And the rest of the people, the small group of people like us,
    was taken to two streets which were closed up.
    And that was the forced labor camp, called forced labor camp.
    So it was your father, you?
    Well, my father, me, and my sister.
    And then next day, my two sisters--
    They all came back.
    --came back.
    And they were very angry with me.
    How could I let my mother go alone?
    Why didn't I go with her?
    And I had a terrible guilt feeling, too.
    Somehow, they expected I should go, at least, with my mother.
    Although it wasn't up to me.
    But then they started the rumors that there was
    one man who escaped the train.
    And he met people while walking through the woods.
    He met a group of Jews who were working
    in Treblinka on construction of the gas chambers.
    And he told-- they told him what was the fate of the people that
    came there.
    And he decided he has to come and warn the people of the camp
    as if we could do anything about it.
    And he came and he told us.
    And nobody believed him.
    We didn't want to believe him.
    We didn't want to believe him.
    Because to believe him would mean to give up any hope.
    Not only for our dear ones, but also for ourselves.
    That things like that is possible, there was no God,
    and we couldn't abandon God.
    Because he was the only thing that we
    could think of giving us any help in a terrible situation.
    And so the man was completely ostracized.
    Nobody wanted-- everybody stood away from him.
    He was bad news.
    He was bad news.
    And of course, then the ghetto--
    then my sister, my older sister, went with her father--
    with her husband.
    She got married to Skarzysko.
    I got married, too.
    People were married in the ghetto.
    Because you have to have somebody.
    And the few people that remained and had absolutely nobody,
    they try to attach themselves to anybody-- to somebody.
    Whether it was one younger friend of mine
    attached herself to a very old man.
    But you know, just to have some solace, somebody
    to think about.
    Because my experience, the whole tragedy
    was that a person that was alone was a doomed person.
    All the time.
    And I think that the-- really, one thing that I have to say
    is about staying alive was because I was at least
    always with one of my sisters.
    I had somebody to remind me that I was once a human being.
    Somebody to remind me that there could still be hope.
    But the people that had nobody, either they adopted somebody
    and they were just like a family,
    or if they didn't have the ability to do so,
    they perished.
    They lost the will.
    They lost the will to live because there
    was nothing to live for.
    But as long as you had the link with humanity
    in one other person, you still strived to survive.
    And that's what happened to me.
    And I imagine to anybody else that tried to survive.
    Because you couldn't be alone.
    It was such a terrible, hopeless situation.
    You felt so helpless that if you didn't
    have the warmth of a hand of somebody else,
    you just couldn't make it.
    So the man you married when you were in the ghetto--
    is that the same man who's your husband today?
    Yes.
    I married him with the sound of guns
    from Warsaw ghetto that was liquidated at this time.
    In April of--
    '43?
    --'44, yeah.
    And then we went through a lot of--
    You had met him in Radom?
    Excuse me.
    Yes, yes.
    He was born in Radom.
    And so were the husbands of all my sisters.
    My other sister after me also married a Radom man.
    And people were marrying.
    You know, there was element--
    what was there to a marriage?
    It was a Sunday.
    Had to be on Sunday, because we worked the whole week.
    As a matter of fact, I didn't really
    remember my date of my wedding until I, you know,
    when I went to the rabbi to arrange
    for bar mitzvah of my son.
    He asked me for my marriage.
    And I said, I don't remember.
    I don't know.
    And he looked at me very suspiciously, and he said,
    were you married?
    You know, he was.
    I said, I was.
    I was married by a rabbi.
    And I remember it was in April.
    And I remember it was Passover.
    And I remember it was Sunday.
    So then he took out a big calendar
    and he told me that the date was 6th of April.
    I did not remember.
    It wasn't such an important-- dates were not important to us.
    Time, there was no concept of time.
    And that's what the liquidation of the ghetto meant for me.
    A total enemy a new reality with going the way of my--
    although I still have my family.
    But losing my mother meant a total collapse
    of all my values and norms.
    And we really didn't know how to behave or what to do.
    Because we were never taught to be in a situation as we were.
    How old were you?
    How old I was?
    Just in terms of, like, were you a teenager
    or were you early 20s?
    Around there.
    No, no.
    At that time-- that was in '42.
    Yeah, I was 20 years old.
    I was 20 years old exactly.
    But still, I was brought up with certain values.
    And here, all of a sudden, there were--
    and the worst thing that happened to me was when
    my mother--
    we were caught in one place.
    And we tried to move to another, you know, to be around people.
    In order to do so, we had to go through
    a like, so-called battle zone.
    You know, from last night's Aktion.
    Yes.
    So we saw corpses thrown all over, you know.
    Jewish people who were there with a religious--
    Garb.
    --shawls and garbs, all stained with blood,
    with intestines out.
    And my mother grabbed me and my younger sister
    and covered my eyes.
    That's how we went with her, you know, clinging to her.
    And she was covering her eyes.
    And I thought, if there ever should be sculptures
    of Holocaust, it should be just a sculpture of a mother trying
    to cover eyes of the children.
    To shield the children.
    To shield them from that terrible reality.
    So then after that, my mother said to me, now I can see,
    I lived in darkness all my life.
    And that shook me up terribly. .
    Because I knew what she meant.
    She was a very religious person.
    And she felt at that time that there was--
    that she has no reason to believe.
    That shook me up more than anything else.
    Did you stop believing?
    No.
    I still believed because I had to.
    I believed because that was the only way I could live.
    This was part of my personality.
    I had to have hope.
    And hope meant to believe in something which was stronger
    than the Germans.
    And I couldn't think of anything else but God.
    And the only thing that I knew, although I
    came from a religious family, I knew just one--
    Krishma you know, the prayer.
    The Shema.
    Because we weren't really religiously brought up,
    being girls, you know.
    The boys, of course, had to do it.
    But that's all I knew, you know, the words of this.
    Of the Shema.
    Of the Shema.
    And every time there was an Aktion, that's all I was doing
    is repeating.
    It was like a sort of meditation--
    now I realize that was meditation--
    over and over again those few words of the Krishma.
    And that helped to keep my sanity.
    Yeah.
    And where did you go from there?
    We went through one--
    I have to mention that, you know, the heroism of my sister.
    Because one day--
    Which sister?
    My younger sister.
    Eva?
    Eva, yeah.
    She was working for [INAUDIBLE],, which
    was the outfit of girls that was looking through clothing
    of the people from Treblinka.
    As a matter of fact, she found a sweater of my mother.
    And she brought it home.
    And we wore-- every day, one of us
    wore it, trying to get some warmth from it.
    But we still did not realize.
    Or we didn't--
    I don't know.
    We just did not realize.
    We just thought that it was hot and my mother left the sweater.
    And I was working at that time in the kitchen, you know.
    The ghetto, one day, I think it was in December of 1943,
    all of a sudden the ghetto was surrounded
    and they took out all the people who were in the ghetto.
    Me and my father, I took into the kitchen, too.
    Because I was not a dressmaker.
    I couldn't work as a dressmaker, although I was [INAUDIBLE]
    count as a dressmaker.
    And they took us--
    we had to walk to Szydlowiec, which was a small town,
    I think three or four kilometers from Radom.
    And then we found a few thousand Jews from surrounding villages.
    And it looked to me like that was the end of the line.
    And we are there to get--
    nothing good will come.
    And I was in terrible state of such deep depression
    the only thing that kept me alive was my father.
    Because I knew if I will get away with myself,
    he will really go completely to pieces.
    And then all of a sudden, I felt like going.
    You know, I was laying there on the floor,
    like the rest of the people are waiting our fate,
    I decided to go outside.
    And then I see a German truck coming.
    And I couldn't believe my ears when
    the driver said, "is there Abram Kronenberg, Lillian Kronenberg?
    Abram?"
    I said yes, yes.
    They said, where is your father?
    I grabbed my-- I ran and luckily I was able to find my father.
    And I said, father, somebody sent for us.
    And my father said, your mother in heaven--
    he probably realized-- must have sent to get us out from this.
    And then a woman attached herself to him
    and said to the driver, I'm his wife, please, I am his wife.
    And he asked my father, is that also your wife?
    My father said, yes.
    So they took her through and they brought us back to ghetto.
    My father cried and said my mother performed the miracles.
    But it happened-- when we came to ghetto,
    I found out that my sister, Eva, worked at that time
    at [INAUDIBLE],, and she saw, you know,
    the SS men were constantly coming and taking,
    picking out jewelry and other stuff for themselves.
    And among them was Obersturmführer [Personal name]
    who was one of the most ferocious SS men,
    He was father of six children.
    And during the liquidation, he taught to the SS men
    how to save bullets by crushing children's skulls
    against the sidewalk.
    My sister approached that man and begged him to save me.
    But only, she practically threatened him.
    She said, you are a father of six children.
    Just imagine how would you feel if your dear ones
    were taken away.
    Please, do everything and bring my father and my sister back.
    And that was unheard of for a man like that.
    Instead of taking her and sending her with us,
    somehow got some kind of a pity.
    And he sent that truck.
    And that's how we were saved from Szydlowiec
    and the rest of the people were sent to Treblinka
    from this transport.
    Then we dealt with people that were completely unpredictable.
    When we came back first to the ghetto, there was like a--
    they picked few people that had Palestinian relatives
    and Palestinian papers.
    And a lot of them lost their children.
    So other people gave them children, you know,
    to go on their-- the papers.
    And this group reached Palestine.
    And we got some news about it.
    And strangely enough, among those children
    who were attached to strange people
    was the first ambassador to Egypt.
    I think his name was Friedman, but I'm not completely sure.
    He was one of the children that a woman
    who lost her own children took him to Palestine.
    So then there was a hope that the Palestine somehow
    tries to get some people, save some people.
    And especially when there was one Aktion
    that only people who were--
    they started to register people who
    have relatives in Palestine.
    And of course, everybody wanted to be on the list.
    We didn't have any relatives.
    We lived at that time in a room that was infested with rats.
    It was cold.
    But there was a little hiding place there.
    At that time, I worked for the Air Force.
    And one night, I had to work later.
    And instead of the SS escort, I got
    an officer, which right away I could see was a darling.
    And very shortly after we left, a woman joined us.
    And you could see that they were in love.
    And he started to talk to me like to a human being, which
    I wasn't used to.
    And he asked me, do you have family?
    And I said, my mother was resettled.
    And when I said that, I could see him exchange a glance
    with that woman.
    And he said, promise me one thing.
    When there will be a resettlement in the ghetto,
    do anything, but don't go.
    Hide, do anything you can do.
    But don't go.
    That, of course, shook me up a lot.
    But then as we were nearing to the ghetto, he got scared,
    and he said, I'll take you.
    Don't say that to anybody that I told you that.
    But of course, I told that to my family.
    So when the day came that all the Germans surrounded
    against the ghetto, we hid in that hiding place
    infested with the rats.
    And that's how we went through this.
    So only people who were registered--
    1,500 people stayed in the ghetto.
    Everybody else was sent to Treblinka.
    That, of course, gave us a hope that it
    is good to have some Palestinian connection.
    So Purim was coming.
    And they ask for a list of intellectuals.
    And everybody tried to be on the list, but they desired--
    they demand at least a college degree for it.
    But of course, people somehow--
    there was a big group of people, at least hundred or more,
    who didn't have the degrees and tried
    to somehow get on the list.
    And they came out and everybody gave them letters.
    And everybody was so envied.
    They were dressed in their best.
    And they went and they put them in the trucks.
    And the minute they left the ghetto, we saw it wasn't good.
    Because the truck was joined by Ukrainian Army,
    Ukrainian soldiers.
    And surely enough, they were massacred in the cemetery.
    But some of them, somehow, begged.
    The knew the Ukrainian.
    And they said, we weren't on the list.
    We came by mistake.
    They came to the ghetto and they were telling us
    the whole story.
    Of course, we knew that the situation was very, very bad.
    Then on in this day in November on 1943,
    the ghetto was completely liquidated
    and the rest of the people were sent to Szkolna, where
    was the ammunition factory.
    And that was already a camp with a barracks.
    And, well, this SS men.
    Every night, they checked feet, where you had clean feet
    and beat people senseless.
    How could you have clean feet if there was no sanitary condition
    or anything?
    It was very atrocious, I think.
    At that time, I was already very on the last leg, so to speak.
    I saw there was absolutely no hope.
    And that's why, when one day, in a march,
    they took all the older people and children who were
    left and put them on the list.
    And they said if the family want to join them, they can.
    I decided for me and all my sisters, all family,
    and my husband, whose parents were also taken--
    we decided to go.
    We don't care, we'll go with them.
    And they took us to the station, put us in the cattle cars.
    And of course, when we looked around and saw who are we with,
    old people and that was that.
    However, we came to Majdanek.
    And to our biggest surprise, they
    took us to the shower, which I thought that was the end.
    Verily, when we felt that the water came,
    we couldn't believe.
    You expected gas?
    We all expected gas.
    Because that time, we already knew.
    And the whole transport went through with it.
    With the children, with the older people.
    They took us through it.
    We came there, Majdanek was already Judenfrei.
    There were no Jews except for hundred women
    and hundred men who were left from the massacre.
    And I met some of my beautiful girls,
    all young, beautiful girls, and very strong, handsome men.
    And they told me how Majdanek was
    one day completely liquidated.
    Because they found a gun there and they shot all the people.
    And people were just sitting in their excrement,
    just waiting for death.
    And then in the last minute, they
    picked hundred girls and hundred boys.
    And they stayed there to sort out the clothing or valuables.
    They were wearing special garb with a big letter
    A, which means Aktionenjuden, Jews who witnessed the Aktion.
    So of course, they knew they were doomed
    unless there will be a miracle.
    And they were really very--
    they were very happy, of course, when
    we came, that there were some.
    That gave them hope.
    And the children and all the people,
    that we all went through.
    And some of them really adopted.
    You know, like there was one older woman.
    So they adopted her like a mother.
    They washed her hair, they were very
    nice to her and everything.
    And we were all full of hope, because we knew that the news--
    that there was one woman, a Polish woman,
    who was married to a Jew and who was taken with her sister,
    went with her daughter, who was a Mischling, half Jewish.
    She lived, or worked in the office.
    And she was friendly with our stubenalteste there.
    And she came every night and told us all the news.
    And she was telling us that the Russians are approaching
    and that the Germans get terribly beaten.
    And there was really hope in the air.
    And spring was coming, too.
    That was April.
    And really, I remember standing behind it a while and looking.
    There were some trees and birds.
    And I was so envious.
    I said, gosh, if I could change in a ward
    and just crawl through that barbed wire,
    maybe I could be saved.
    And it was really beautiful weather
    that you felt like living.
    And I'm sure that the poor hundred
    girls felt the same way.
    They were full of hope, too.
    But unfortunately, one day, that woman from the office
    came and told us that our transport is going to go.
    And their transport is going to go
    in a different direction, which already gave us very bad--
    we knew that it wasn't good.
    So if it was that woman who was treated as a mother,
    all of a sudden, of course, became
    an object of terrible hate.
    And her daughters, adopted daughters
    said, how come that you, an old woman, will be able to survive
    and we're so young, we'll have to go to our death?
    And I gave some of my friends my coat and everything.
    Because they said they will escape.
    And also, a lot of women--
    there was one woman who had a brother in England.
    She gave me an address of her brother, which
    I kept maybe until Auschwitz.
    And she wanted me to tell him how she went to her death.
    And they went one day.
    The next day, they put the rest us all in striped garbs.
    And we went to Plaszow.
    And about 150 people died in Majdanek
    of starvation and epidemic.
    But our families went untouched.
    We came to Plaszow, which was a terrible camp.
    And right away, our men were isolated, kept in quarantine.
    Because the Jews in charge, when they
    heard that the only survivors of Majdanek came,
    they figured out they must have a pool with the Germans
    to be alive.
    So they said that there was typhoid in the mountain.
    And they quarantined so they couldn't work and do anything.
    And they were just starving to death
    unless they had some women who could bring them some food.
    Me and my sister were lucky.
    We were selected to go to a brick factory, where
    work was very hard.
    We had to push barrels with the bricks.
    But we were able to buy some food from the Polish people
    that worked there.
    But of course, to bring that food in the ghetto,
    or in the camp, was a very dangerous thing.
    Because they could shoot you on the spot.
    But we had to do that.
    Because otherwise, our men would die of starvation.
    So every time we passed this, we felt that was the end of us.
    But somehow, maybe because we had
    the striped garbs or something, our transport went through.
    But we saw others getting caught,
    being punished and beaten and everything.
    Was your father still with you?
    Was your father one of the men?
    Yes, yes.
    My father was-- my father, and my husband,
    and my sister's husband, we were all together
    except my older sister, who was in Skarzysko
    at that time with her husband.
    So we were able to feed our men this way.
    Then one day in July, they took us and the men,
    who were of course by now skeletons, most of them,
    to Wieliczka, which was the salt mines.
    And they had the airplane factory in the air.
    And that was a very terrible day,
    because that little piece of bread that we got there, me
    and my sister, we gave away to my father to keep him alive.
    So of course, we both could not work.
    Every time we came from the ups and sunlight hit us,
    we both fainted.
    And we knew that that was the end.
    But then one day, they took us away.
    And I remember, me and my sister took our bread,
    our last bread, to my father to say goodbye.
    And my father started crying and threw the bread back at us.
    It was the first time he threw like this.
    And he said, I don't want the bread, I want my children.
    Of course, nothing could be done.
    And we were taken away back to Plaszow.
    In Plaszow, we were a few days, and they made--
    oh, I forgot to tell you, before that, we lost my father-in-law.
    There was a selection of older people and young children.
    And all the children from Majdanek that survived
    went at that time.
    That was Shavous.
    All the action took place during the holidays.
    The Jewish holidays.
    So that's how I know, because we have a Yahrtzeit
    for my father-in-law.
    And also, the reason a lot of them went
    was that shortly before that, they took all the people
    from our transport and we had to donate the blood to the wounded
    German soldiers, which was really terrible thing.
    First of all, the logic behind him.
    Here, it was an [GERMAN] to even come near a Jewish person.
    And here, they took our blood to save the German soldiers.
    And of course, by saving the German soldiers,
    a lot of our people by that time were Moslems.
    The people were--
    Muselmenn.
    Yeah.
    And they went, a lot of people went at that time.
    And then one day, they selected a few people.
    And I was among them, but not my sister.
    And they made like a place in the middle of Plaszow,
    where they put the wire around it.
    And they put the group of people there.
    And of course, I knew that was the end of me.
    I have no sister.
    I have nothing to live for.
    But my sister dug a tunnel under this.
    Because she was very small and skinny.
    And she went through.
    And we fell in each other's arms.
    And now, we knew that we didn't care about anything.
    We were together.
    And that's how they took us to Auschwitz.
    And in Auschwitz, we survived the selection.
    We still-- when we came to Auschwitz,
    we didn't know what Auschwitz was.
    And a man was there working.
    And I started to-- you know, picking up the clothing.
    And I started to talk to him.
    And he was from Lodz.
    And I said, what kind of a camp is that?
    And he said, this is our family grave.
    I said, what you mean?
    He said, you have here the Jews of the whole.
    But, you know, very fast and worried,
    because he was afraid to tell me this.
    Anyhow, I was very angry with him.
    How did he dare to bring me such news that couldn't be true?
    But then of course, when there was a selection,
    and they took a lot of our women, and of course,
    all the children, and they set them apart,
    we still didn't know.
    We still didn't know.
    We were in the barracks.
    We were still me and my sister, my mother-in-law.
    We went through and they shaved our hair completely.
    It was a terrible, especially I could see my mother-in-law,
    who had the most gorgeous head of hair, auburn, [INAUDIBLE],,
    really.
    And she cried terribly when she lost her hair.
    And after that, they walked us.
    And then we saw a tremendous big bonfire.
    And although, we did not know now, but still,
    such a fear gripped our hearts that everybody
    started crying terribly.
    Of course, most of the people there
    had people in that bonfire, but they didn't know it yet.
    But when we came through Birkenau,
    and we met Czechoslovakian Jews, and Jewish from other,
    they didn't make any bones about it.
    And then there was the smell in the air.
    And there was still the--
    we could see the transport coming and going.
    So then the terrible truth was right, open before us.
    And in Birkenau, we were still we
    met my sister from Skarzysko.
    She was the only one who somehow had her hair.
    And she was able to exchange with somebody
    from another block before they tattooed our numbers.
    So she knew we were all four together laying on the bridge.
    And I started to get terrible fainting spells.
    I couldn't stand.
    At the Appell, we've got to stand for hours.
    And finally, my sister tried to do everything to pick me up
    and I find the Blockalteste [INAUDIBLE]..
    I had to go to a hospital to [INAUDIBLE],, which
    was of course for me the end of the road.
    I went to the hospital.
    I had typhoid.
    And I was like in a dream world, you know, from the high fever.
    I didn't know a lot.
    All I knew was either they brought me food,
    I couldn't eat it.
    And of course, when the fever subsided, I was released.
    Of course, people grabbed my food.
    And I was a living skeleton.
    I had absolutely no strength.
    On top of it, I developed like a boil
    on my back, which got infected and got worse and worse.
    And my shoulder blade was sticking out.
    You could see the flesh and bone.
    So of course, I was not a candidate
    for the long survival.
    However, the doctor, a Hungarian woman doctor,
    she took pity on me.
    And after she attended to everybody, I was the last one.
    She put some dressing, something on my-- trying to relieve this.
    Of course, she couldn't close it up.
    But at least to keep it less infected.
    And as she was sitting with me after a whole day
    of very hard work.
    So she worked very hard there.
    And she saw plenty of death, I have to tell you.
    We started to talk about literature.
    You know, she was a very intelligent woman.
    And she read a lot of books.
    French and Russian.
    And of course, I did, too.
    And we went in that--
    it's ridiculous, but that's what we were doing.
    We found a great solace.
    For both of us trying to escape through literature
    in another world.
    And then one morning, she came to me and she said,
    you better get out of here.
    Because the word is that it's going to be a selection.
    And of course, you are candidate number one.
    I don't have to tell you that you'll be it with the way
    you look.
    And I said, how can I go?
    I can't walk.
    How can I leave?
    She said, if you want to leave, you crawl.
    You do anything, but get out from here.
    Luckily, the [INAUDIBLE] wasn't too far from the block
    where my sisters were.
    And I crawled with my force there.
    And then my sister grabbed me.
    And they put me on the bed and tried to somehow
    make my life bearable.
    But the wound was getting worse and worse.
    Then my two younger sisters decided
    that they'd better leave.
    They saw that I was lost, a lost cause.
    And my older sister had a heart condition.
    Since a child, she had rheumatic fever.
    And she wasn't doing very well either.
    Also, her husband was taken in Auschwitz.
    And she knew about it.
    In order to save her, some of her friends
    wrote a letter that he was safe and he was sent on a transport.
    And that gave her a will to live.
    And she said she will stay with me in Auschwitz.
    Maybe she will get the word.
    Because her husband knows that she's in Auschwitz.
    So he will notify her where he is.
    So my two sisters went in, I think that was in November '44.
    They started transport.
    They were one of the first ones.
    Took all we knew, we said goodbye, and they went.
    And after they went, we, the two of us, completely went apart.
    Also, thank god we were two.
    But still, we were missing them so badly
    that although we knew that it was not realistic and all this,
    we decided to go, too.
    That maybe we will meet my sisters.
    So when next time they'd ask for people on a transport,
    we showed up.
    And they took us to a big barrack.
    Were you more healthy now?
    I was able to walk.
    But I still looked to the Muselmann.
    And my wound was wide open.
    So we went to the barrack.
    And we didn't know what to expect.
    Then all of a sudden, I see some doctors coming in.
    And among them, that woman, that Hungarian woman doctor.
    They came there to check people for scabies.
    Because the Germans were very afraid that a skin disease,
    it would--
    you know that terrible itch.
    The Germans were terribly afraid of it.
    And they wouldn't enter a block until they
    were sure there was nobody there with scabies.
    When she saw me, she almost fainted.
    She said, what you are doing here?
    She said, are you in a hurry to go to a gas chamber?
    Can't you wait till they take you?
    I saved you from the [INAUDIBLE] and now you go by yourself?
    I started crying.
    I said, I don't--
    I want to be with my sisters.
    She said, you better get out from here.
    And she attached me and my sister
    to the people that had scabies.
    And they took us to the block for the scabies.
    And next day, when we came, we decided to go and see
    what happened to that block.
    We went there and we found in a little room
    a number of people locked up.
    And they knew what they were locked.
    Who didn't go through the selection.
    And they had some bread.
    So they threw the bread at us and said, eat.
    Eat.
    Because we are-- we will go, we can't enjoy it anymore.
    We don't need bread anymore, where we are going.
    And remember, if you survive, you
    tell them what happened here.
    So we went back because we took the bread.
    Because what else was there to do?
    And this then-- they took us from, there was a Birkenau .
    In this camp was a Birkenau that was only a transport camp.
    You know, people didn't work there.
    One day, they took the rest of the people.
    And they took the Birkenau working camp.
    That was the most terrible thing I have ever seen.
    Every minute, there was selection.
    And I knew already that was the end of me.
    And one day, they sure enough took us out.
    And they took our role numbers.
    At that time, I had the tattoo number.
    And my sister.
    And we didn't know where we are going.
    Where's your father and your husband?
    We left them in Wieliczka.
    We didn't know what happened to them.
    I told you that it--
    you know, my father threw the bread at us.
    And that was the end I saw him.
    Anyhow, one day, they took our numbers and I started crying.
    I thought that I won't go through the selection
    with my wound.
    And my sister, because I was so helpless, that I just wanted
    to have somebody with me.
    That's all I wanted to have is at least that one sister.
    And my sister said to me, if they take you, don't worry,
    I go with you.
    And that gave me great solace.
    Although I knew that that was a sacrifice on her part.
    But I still felt secure.
    When we went through the selection,
    I went first, and my sister sort of tripped
    and, like, fell on me.
    And she covered my back.
    And that's how I went through.
    And they took us to Auschwitz.
    In Auschwitz, we were in a block,
    where we were working in a--
    as dressmakers.
    Fixing the clothes of the--
    this was a block that was, like, to show off
    where the red Cross came.
    So it was fairly clean.
    We had, each one of us got a bed with a blanket, which was,
    at that time, a [INAUDIBLE].
    We didn't have to go out for an Appell, which at that time,
    it was winter.
    That was a tremendous plus.
    And they had also an infirmary, where they started
    to treat my would until it--
    It healed.
    --got well.
    At that time-- yeah, but food was very scarce.
    We had no contact with the other blocks except
    through the fence.
    And I met there a friend of mine from Radom.
    And she asked me whether I need anything.
    And I said I could use some food.
    We were starving.
    So she said she was going to work, out.
    And she said, we have plenty of food.
    There is always-- they throw out the soup.
    I said, could you bring me something?
    She said, I will try.
    So she was walking every day miles with a heavy soup thing.
    And brought us the soup.
    Me and my sister.
    And that was--
    I believe it saved our life.
    But there were already-- we knew that the war
    was coming to an end.
    And there were air raids.
    But of course, not directly in Auschwitz, but close by.
    And there were rumors that the Russians
    have come closer at that time.
    So I went through a terrible thing.
    I had to witness the hanging of two girls who gave dynamite
    for the crematorium.
    One of the crematoriums was finished.
    And they hanged two young girls.
    And we were told that everybody has to look at them.
    If they will see that somebody averts the eyes,
    they will be shot on the spot.
    And those two women were really heroes.
    And one of them cried.
    And one of them was very agitated, of course,
    and she said, remember, sisters, revenge.
    That was her last breath before she was hanged.
    In January one day, they came and said
    that we are leaving the camp.
    Whoever wants can stay.
    I begged my sister to stay.
    Because I knew that she had a bad heart.
    And she won't-- at that time, I was stronger.
    She won't be able to maybe walk.
    But she was so sure that her husband was safe, she said,
    I have to leave to see him after the war.
    And she said to me, what chance do we have here?
    Look who's staying here, just children and older people.
    Do you think that they will let them live after all this?
    But as soon as the other people walk out,
    they will finish them.
    As it happened, she was wrong.
    We could have saved ourselves five months
    of extreme suffering.
    We had to go to a warehouse to get shoes.
    Because we were, in that block, we
    were walking in the wooden Dutch shoes.
    And there was a woman there with me.
    And she picked a pair of very fancy shoes.
    And I said to her, are you crazy?
    After all, you will have to walk.
    And she said, for the first time, I feel like a woman.
    I can't take it off.
    Look how nice they look with my leg.
    I saw that woman walking with her feet
    bandaged, with her clothing.
    She tore up her clothes and this.
    And you could see the blood soaking through it.
    And I was thinking to me how vain some people could be.
    To feel like a woman, she probably paid with her life.
    Because whoever was left behind was shot.
    We were like cattle.
    We were.
    And everybody wanted to be-- nobody
    wanted to be in the back.
    Because he was shot.
    And I witnessed a son and a father.
    So the boy was maybe 15 years old.
    And the father couldn't walk any longer.
    And the son lay down and kissed the boots of the SS soldier.
    And he shot both of them.
    And I don't know really how long we walked
    or I don't know what gave us both the strength.
    My sister, especially.
    We somehow came to a train, which took us to Ravensbrück.
    In Ravensbrück, we were assigned to a [GERMAN],,
    which was full of Christian Scientists and lesbians.
    The combination.
    On one hand, they were sitting and praying.
    On the other one, the lesbians were cavorting.
    And of course, the--
    We have just about a second.
    Can we stop now and--
    Oh, sure.
    --continue?
    I don't know how we're going to be able to do it.--
    We continue with Lillian Ross's narrative.
    Continue with your story of Ravensbrück.
    No, Ravensbrück was a terrible camp.
    It was a camp of living skeletons.
    Because the people there stayed for years.
    And that was in Germany, where the food was really
    very scarce.
    And it was unbelievable how the people lived.
    They were just-- they didn't gas them, they starved.
    They starved.
    And it looked like that will be our fate, too,
    because we were totally isolated in this camp, you know.
    Nobody even came close.
    I mean that Lager.
    The [GERMAN].
    Oh, the only way to get food was through your German,
    the woman who was in charge.
    And of course, a lot of the girls
    that came from Auschwitz--
    and a lot of them were very good-looking.
    And you know, they were, they had--
    who stayed in Auschwitz to the last minute.
    You know, they had positions.
    That they were well-fed.
    They went for it.
    So there was a lot of stories there.
    It was very interesting, in a way,
    to see how they were competing for her attention.
    Because she was a lesbian, too.
    And trying to get some food.
    And luckily, one day, they took us on a transport.
    And we really couldn't believe they put us in a passenger
    to Pullman's cars with heat.
    And they gave each a small care package to eat.
    You can't imagine what that means, to feel warmth.
    When we sat down on the soft seats
    and we felt the warmth coming through it,
    we felt that that must be the end of the war.
    And especially, when we've got a little ration of things
    that we didn't see for such a long time.
    That gave us a tremendous hope.
    We came to Neustadt-Glewe.
    That was a camp that was an Air Force factory.
    But there was no work for us.
    They just kept there all in the camp
    and gave us a daily ration of food.
    I had the bad luck, again, to go with that Polish [GERMAN],,
    which I told you.
    And the bread that we got, one for 10 or something like that,
    mostly was molded.
    So of course, the molded bread was distributed
    among the Jewish people.
    And the [GERMAN] elders that I suspect
    she must have been a Jew who was posing as a Polish apologized
    to me.
    And she said, what can I do?
    If I give you the good, they will kill me.
    And I was her favorite, because she
    used to bring me papers, German papers
    that I've translated for her.
    And from the papers, we could see
    that the war was almost over.
    As I told you, that's all the Polish people were waiting for.
    They should take us out and kill us.
    Then they will really know the war was over.
    But the starvation was terrible.
    We really, we couldn't go on.
    My sister was already on her last leg,
    and so was I. Because the last two days,
    they didn't give us any food at all.
    And we could see through the window
    the officers of the Air Force coming in and going out
    in civilian clothing.
    And the English planes were flying and dropping leaflets--
    keep courage, we are coming, we are close by, the Allies.
    How could you-- you could talk to people
    who were dying of hunger.
    And lice.
    Lice-- that was a terrible thing.
    We were just covered with them.
    That was tough.
    But there was one thing that was helping us to survive.
    And that was everybody was grouping
    around me and my sister.
    And we were telling them about my grandfather's Purim fast.
    What she was cooking.
    My grandmother was a terrible cook.
    And it seems, not knowing at that time the psychology,
    I was using imagery to keep those people alive.
    Because every day, they came to me like for food,
    to listen to what?
    To the strudel and all good things.
    And I was talking for hours, describing the smell and this.
    And that really kept us alive.
    Till finally one day, you know, you could see those people,
    it was something was in the air.
    And then all of a sudden, like a big scream went
    through the camp.
    And somebody started to scream the Americans,
    the Americans are here.
    So of course everybody, even the skeletons like us got up.
    And hooray, where?
    And then the German black--
    the camp, the SS woman came in, and she said, children.
    Children, mind you.
    Be quiet.
    The Americans are here, but not yet.
    They come very soon.
    Just keep quiet and everything will--
    and stay in your rooms.
    Stay in your rooms.
    Everything will be all right.
    So being used to being ordered, we just stood in our rooms.
    We stood and stood, but finally, one woman so got curious,
    and she went out.
    And she went to the room where the SS woman was.
    The room was empty.
    And she came back, and she said, there is no SS woman.
    As we could hardly walk.
    But we crept out from the block, and we
    saw there were no guards on the towers.
    The calm camp was deserted.
    All the Germans ran away.
    And then what do we do?
    We all went to the warehouse, like a bunch of crazy people.
    Because we were all starving.
    And there was a-- the warehouse was closed.
    But there was a little window, like in the cellar.
    And we somehow managed to clip in through the window and get--
    and the warehouse was full of food.
    They just didn't give us anything to eat.
    And I just took some crackers, because I
    felt that's all my stomach could with.
    And I grabbed a bag of crackers, and I came out in the air.
    And I begged my sister, I said, come, let's go out,
    let's sit and eat.
    And she said, no.
    She wants to look for something.
    I could have killed her.
    I said, what are you, crazy?
    I said.
    Because a few days before, we got a care package.
    Which was sent, was divided.
    One in four among the Gentiles, and one in 17
    amongst the Jewish people.
    So she got a little bit of sardine.
    And she wanted to have the same taste.
    I just went out.
    And I was sitting there.
    And I could see the girls.
    There was a truck that the SS woman left
    with clothing and everything.
    The ones that still had strands that worked in the kitchen
    going through clothes and taking out beautiful underwear
    and everything, and grabbing these things.
    And I was sitting there and thinking to myself,
    are they crazy?
    What do they need that thing like for?
    Why don't they go for food?
    And I was sitting and waiting and waiting,
    and my sister didn't come out.
    And I was sure that she's already finished there,
    you know?
    And finally, finally, I saw her.
    And when I saw her, I started to scream at her.
    I said, what, you crazy?
    She had a can of sardines.
    I said, for that, you risk your life?
    So she said to me, be quiet.
    Don't you realize it?
    We survived the war.
    And then, it hit me.
    We really did.
    I couldn't believe that we really did survive the war.
    Then we went to the gate.
    The gate was open, deserted.
    But strangely enough, I couldn't close it.
    Because I was not used to go by myself.
    We were always escorted.
    And finally, one of the girls said, let's try.
    We can do it now.
    And she closed.
    And the rest of us closed, too.
    And that was a feeling of such terrible freedom,
    to be able to walk by yourself, not escorted
    and to go wherever you want to go that I just
    couldn't believe it.
    And then, we came back to the camp,
    which of course, by that time, looked terrible
    with excrements and vomits.
    People who started eating after starvation.
    And one of the Polish women, she grabbed bacon, raw bacon,
    and ate.
    I think she died.
    And she was screaming something awful.
    Anyhow, we still didn't see anybody.
    We know the camp was deserted.
    But then we saw Russian soldiers.
    And they said, be quiet.
    And tomorrow, we're going to give you food.
    Next day, they set us up together,
    and they took out a cow, which they divided in four quarters.
    And they gave every 10 people a quarter of a cow.
    Of course, that contributed to more death.
    Anyhow, they told us to go home.
    And I said, I have no home.
    Where are you from?
    Poland.
    Go back to Poland.
    So me and my sister and two other women baked some little
    crackers and put it in a pillowcase.
    And we went walking to Poland.
    And then one little town, there was some kind of a castle.
    And they assigned us to a Polish man,
    who stole the horses from the woman he worked for.
    And he was going with them.
    He was a fireman going to Poland.
    So we went with him.
    The final [INAUDIBLE] we went by train.
    We came to Lodz.
    Of course, it was a terrible thing, you know.
    We went to my grandmother's house.
    And the janitor recognized us.
    I mean, we told him who-- he did not really recognize us.
    But when we explained to him and this, he believed us.
    Because we didn't look like human beings.
    The hair was just starting to grow a little bigger,
    and we were skeletons.
    He gave us an apartment.
    We had to lay on the floor, no furniture.
    But we were happy with it.
    And then every day, we were going
    to the council, Jewish Council, to look
    for the list of survivors.
    And then one day, a woman came in and asked,
    could you direct me to the Kronenberg sisters?
    And I looked at her and her voice and something strike me.
    And all of a sudden, I cried out, Aunt.
    And she was scared.
    She couldn't believe it.
    I said, this is me, Lillian, your niece.
    I must have looked very terrible.
    Because back then, of course, she knew when I told her.
    How did she look?
    She looked good, she looked good.
    She survived as a Gentile in Vienna.
    She had her hair, she was dressed very nicely.
    She was still herself.
    We were not human anymore.
    Whose sister was she?
    What?
    Whose sister was she?
    She was sister of my father.
    The only one that survived from his family.
    It was her other sister, also was as a Gentile.
    But she was denounced by the Polish people.
    I mean, her husband was denounced.
    With the children was denounced.
    And then she could have lived.
    But she went herself to the SS and said
    that the woman knew that she was keeping a Jew just
    to get even with her.
    Because she said, she has no reason to live anymore.
    So that's how they died.
    That's what my sister Mary Ann told me.
    Anyhow, when she came, our situation
    became a little bit better.
    Because we had a relative.
    You know, that I hardly know.
    But she knew him, you know.
    And he had a beautiful house and a big apartment.
    He gave us a room there.
    And we lived there until I found out
    that my sisters are in Stuttgart.
    And that was that man who showed me the picture of my sister
    with Eisenhower.
    I couldn't believe him.
    Because I was already taken.
    Somebody else came and said, he has a message from my father.
    And I gave them money.
    And of course, it turned out that he was just
    out to get the money.
    And my father was not alive.
    But when I saw the picture, I have to believe him.
    And then he just wanted to go back to--
    he just wanted to leave Poland.
    And my aunt didn't want to leave.
    Because she found out that her husband survived in Russia.
    And she had to wait for him.
    So me and my sister and my husband smuggled the border.
    Where'd your husband left?
    How did you find your husband?
    What?
    Oh, my husband came after the war.
    Somebody told him.
    A friend of mine was looking for her husband in Germany.
    And when she saw my husband, she told him
    that she saw me in Lodz.
    So he came to see me in Lodz.
    And we went to Czechoslovakia, and from Czechoslovakia
    to Germany.
    There I was reunited with my sisters.
    We were four again.
    But I tell you, frankly, we couldn't go out together
    in the street.
    Not even two.
    Because these people were so decimated.
    There was unheard of that four sisters should survive.
    And we were really afraid to be seen together.
    Because people were very envious.
    I don't blame them, you know.
    They told me straight points.
    You know, how come that the four of you are alive
    and I can't have even one?
    So my sister, younger sister, got a job
    as a secretary of the director of UNRRA.
    And she was one of the first ones
    to go to the United States.
    And she gave the job to me after she left.
    And I worked there.
    And in the meantime, my older sister got very sick
    and she died.
    But of course, that was a result of all the experience.
    The doctors couldn't just believe that she survived.
    She said, she survived on sheer will to live.
    And then I came to United States in March of 1945--
    '49, '49.
    Came to United States.
    And I tell you, it was a great shock
    me to see that there is a country that
    was not touched by war.
    I just couldn't believe it.
    You had expected the United States
    would be like in the jungle?
    Was it like that to you?
    No, I knew what to expect because my both sisters were
    here already.
    And they wrote letter.
    And they told me they were both working and saving money.
    But having a very hard time living in the East Side
    and Williamsburg.
    Walking five stairs.
    But we had it much easier because my husband had
    a family, wealthy family.
    And they took us in.
    Where did you live?
    In Newark.
    And so it was easy.
    But it was for me to tell.
    You know, to see that family doing so well.
    And to realize that there are Jews
    who were not touched by the war, I just couldn't believe it.
    Because as long as I was in Germany,
    the Germans were suffering, too.
    Everybody was touched by the war.
    So I was just one of the victims.
    But here, all of a sudden, I realized
    that by the fate of geography, we
    were really terrible victims.
    That if I wouldn't live in Poland at the time I did,
    I could have been a different person.
    And I could have helped my family.
    So that was, of course, a shock to me.
    But there was no time for shocks,
    because I had to make a living.
    The family was very good to me.
    But you know, I had to support myself.
    Which we did.
    I worked, my husband worked.
    And of course, we had to struggle financially quite
    badly.
    But we were able to raise two children, who turned out,
    thank god, very nicely.
    What is your husband--
    or what did your husband do?
    You know, my husband, his first job was as a dental mechanic.
    He was a dental mechanic.
    But he didn't make enough money.
    So his uncle took him as a shipping clerk in his business.
    And then later on, he went in and out
    of this in a netting business.
    And he was doing better.
    But we were struggling very badly.
    So was my sister.
    Were you ever able to talk with your children about--
    No.
    --these experiences?
    No, no.
    I'm glad you asked me.
    Because I didn't tell my children about the Holocaust.
    I just couldn't bring myself to destroy their childhood.
    Did they want to know?
    They never asked me.
    They must have known that you came from Poland.
    They found out.
    Yes.
    No, sure enough, they must have found out something.
    Because they were sort of raised together with my two nephews,
    Eva's two boys, who had a grandfather, also a survivor.
    And I'm sure that he told them something.
    But I personally didn't tell my children anything.
    Because I was trying desperately to give them a good childhood
    and to believe that life is good.
    And how could you believe life is good if I could tell them
    a story like that?
    And later on, of course, my girlfriend came from Israel.
    She was a psychologist.
    And she came here to teach in college
    how to tell the children about the Holocaust.
    She was very shocked when I told her
    that I didn't tell my children.
    And I said to her--
    because according to psychology, as you know,
    any truth is better.
    Because my son told me once, of course,
    when he knew it already.
    I said, how did this affect you?
    He said, I was growing up with a feeling
    that there is a terrible secret in my family.
    And I was afraid to ask about it.
    And that's when I told her that.
    She said, you see?
    I said, no, I don't see.
    I agree with you that a secret is no good psychologically.
    But not in a case like that.
    It's better to grow up with a feeling of a secret
    than to grow up from a child up knowing
    that the world can be able to do such terrible things.
    So you're going to show them this tape and that's
    going to be their first account of their own?
    No, no, no.
    My younger son went to Israel.
    And that was the first time he was brought face
    to face with Holocaust.
    And when he came back, he took me aside, and he said--
    you know, he's a doctor now.
    He was always very scientific.
    So he said, Ma, if it wouldn't hurt you too much,
    could you just tell me the sequence of the events
    to explain to me how a thing like that was possible?
    He said, I can't understand that.
    Then of course, I just came out and told him.
    Not everything.
    There were things I just couldn't tell him.
    But at least, I explained to him how we were deceived
    and how we were trapped later on.
    And there was nothing that we could do about it.
    And of course, we felt very close.
    And he, I imagine, must have told my oldest son about it.
    But one thing I have to say that was in favor of my not
    telling my children.
    My son went to Albert Einstein Medical School.
    And he was rooming with a doctor's son from California.
    And their parents lost the whole family in Holocaust.
    And the boy grew up with they were constantly talking about.
    And he grew up.
    When he found out that my son is the son of survivor,
    he said, gosh, do I feel sorry for you.
    If I had to go through such a terrible thing,
    I imagine what you must have gone through.
    My son said, I had a very happy childhood.
    So I knew that I was right.
    He found out and it was a terrible shock for him.
    And there is a lot of anger with him.
    But at least he was old enough to deal with it at that time.
    So I didn't want--
    so at that time, I didn't know nothing about psychology.
    And I see that my--
    That your instincts were right.
    --instincts were right not to tell.
    Because my older one grew up feeling about a secret.
    But my younger one didn't.
    He was just happy.
    So that's it.
    And you've been a student here?
    And you graduated from Kean College.
    Yes, I graduated in 1980 when my both sons
    left the house to go to, you know,
    schools, different schools.
    I decided to do something for myself.
    And I have to tell you, those were the best
    five years of my life.
    I picked psychology, of course, because I
    wanted to understand what made me survive
    and what made people animals.
    I can understand while I survived.
    But I can't understand.
    Still, I can't understand how people
    are able to do such terrible things to another people.
    I still can't understand it.
    Do you think, in large measure, your survival
    was due to the fact that you had your sisters and the closeness
    with them?
    Yes, yes, that was very, very--
    also, logically, my survival was due-- first of all,
    there were a lot of people that helped me.
    You know, like that woman who was bringing to me
    this soup, carrying that thing.
    That Hungarian doctor who saved my life twice.
    A Jewish policeman who told the man
    that I was a good dressmaker.
    A lot of things like that.
    But the main thing was that I was never
    in an action that was complete.
    There was always selection.
    Therefore, there was whatever slight,
    but there still was a chance that I could slip through.
    It would be a complete thing, like in Lublin or in Russia,
    when they did, I won't be able to do anything.
    But in this case, somehow, it seems like--
    I mean, I don't know what it was, a fate or something.
    Because when my sisters, they gave us up completely.
    You know, they left us in such a bad state in Auschwitz,
    that they had absolutely no hope of us ever being alive.
    When they found out--
    because I wrote.
    I sent a letter that we are alive,
    they just felt it was a miracle.
    We have no more time, Lillian.
    Thank you so much.
    You're very welcome.
    I hope your story will someday be written down.
    I hope that people will understand and prevent
    occurrence of such terrible things.
    Thank you.
    Well, you're welcome.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Lillian Ross
    Interviewer
    Bernard Weinstein
    Date
    interview:  1987 December 09
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of the Holocaust Resource Center at Kean University

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    3 videocassettes (VHS) : sound, color ; 1/2 in..

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Copyright Holder
    The Holocaust Resource Center at Kean University

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Ross, Lillian.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    The interview was donated to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum along with other interviews between 1993 - 1997 by the Holocaust Resource Center at Kean College (now Kean University).
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 07:57:10
    This page:
    http:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn507637

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    Time Coded Notes (English)

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    Oral history interview with David Kempinski

    Oral History

    David Kempinski, born on July 21, 1921 in Praszka, Poland, describes his youth in Wieluń, Poland from 1927 until 1939; hiding during the bombing of Wieluń on September 1, 1939; a roundup of Jews in Wieluń on August 9, 1941; his transport to Poznań, Poland; his time in a "Reichsautobahn" labor camp; his transport to Regensburg concentration camp; his life in Kreising (Krzesinki), Poland; his time working in a lumber mill in Rzepin, Poland; his transport to Britz; his transport to in Birkenau concentration camp; his transport to and work at I.G. Farben from September 1944 until January 1945; selections in the camp; his time spent in Sachsenhausen, Oranienburg, and Flossenbürg concentration camps in Germany; liberation from Dachau concentration camp on April 29, 1945; his time in Feldafing and Landsberg am Lech displaced persons camps in Germany from 1945 until 1949; his move to Switzerland; his life in Israel from 1949 until 1957; and his life in the United States.

    Oral history interview with Eva Kempinski

    Oral history interview with Eva Kempinski

    Oral History

    Eva Kempinski, born in 1925, discusses her childhood in a Polish shtetl; her family; the bombing at the beginning of World War II in her town on September 1, 1939; her public school education; her move to Warsaw, Poland from Łódź, Poland in December 1939; life in Warsaw; her father's transport to Treblinka concentration camp; her move to Majdanek concentration camp with her mother in 1943; her mother's extermination in Majdanek; being transferred to Auschwitz concentration camp and her life in the camp; working in a munitions factory in Czechoslovakia from December 1944 until her liberation by Russians on May 8, 1945; her emotions at the time of liberation; her feelings about the United States and the response of American Jews to the war; her return to her shtetl; her move to Slovakia and Austria; her move to Palestine as part of the first group of Agudat Israel; her life in Palestine; her move to Switzerland in 1958; her move to the United States in 1964; and her ideas about her children, her grandchildren, and the concept of continuity.

    Oral history interview with Clara Kramer

    Oral history interview with Clara Kramer

    Oral History

    Clara Kramer (born in 1927) discusses her childhood in Zholkva, Poland (now ZHovkva, Ukraine); her memories of a "vibrant" Jewish life in Zholkva before German invasion in 1939; antisemitism in the 1930s; her recollections of the slow changes to Jewish status in the town after 1939; the April 1942 Aktion in Zholkva; the curfew in Zholkva and transports to Belzec concentration camp, starting in the summer of 1942; her time helping people who jumped off transport trains; her time hiding for 22 months after the November 22, 1942 Aktion with her family and others in the home of a Polish family, the Becks; her memories of Mr. and Mrs. Beck and their daughter; her trip to the Zholkva ghetto with her mother and Mr. Beck and his daughter; the Judenrat (Jewish council) in the Zholkva ghetto; the March 1943 Aktion; a fire in the Becks' neighborhood on Palm Sunday, April 20, 1943; her sister's death on April 20, 1943; liberation by the Russians; her time in a displaced persons camp in Germany; descriptions of her diary that she wrote in throughout the Holocaust; and her post-Holocaust American-Jewish activism. Also contains a photograph of Clara Kramer at age 15.

    Oral history interview with Rose Kramer

    Oral history interview with Rose Kramer

    Oral History

    Rose Kramer, born on January 21, 1921 in Beuthen, Germany, discusses her childhood in Bedzin, Poland; her father's death before she was born; the death of her mother when she was eight years old; her recollections of the importance of economic survival; her family not paying attention to the Nazis; her three years in a ghetto; her transport to Auschwitz concentration camp; her transport to Ravensbrück concentration camp and then to Neustadt-Glewe; her memories of liberation from Neustadt-Glewe concentration camp; her time in Feldafing displaced persons camp; her memories of learning of one brother's survival; her travel to the United States in 1949; and her divorce from her first husband after ten years and her marriage to Mr. Kramer.

    Oral history interview with Rae Kushner

    Oral history interview with Rae Kushner

    Oral History

    Rae Kushner, born on February 27, 1923 in Novogrudok, Poland (Navahrudak, Belarus), discusses her childhood community of Novogrudok; her family's middle class life style; her father's fur business; the Russian occupation in 1939; the Russian deportation of wealthy families to Siberia; her memories of Jewish parents hiding children to protect them from deportation; her memories of the German occupation in 1941; her memories of the establishment of a ghetto in a suburb of Novogrudok by the Germans; her recollection of the number of Jews (350 of the original 30,000) who survived the ghetto; the murder of her mother; the digging of an escape tunnel in the ghetto by 70 young men and her brother, Chonon; her brother getting lost after leaving the tunnel; her family joining a partisan group led by Tuvia Bielski; living in a forest for nine months; fleeing to Czechoslovakia at the end of the war; her marriage in Hungary; her memories of secretly crossing the Italian border; life in a displaced persons camp in Italy; her family's journey to the United States in 1949; and her reflections on the role of the United States and other counties in preventing Jewish immigration from Europe before, during, and after the war.

    Oral history interview with Mayer Lief

    Oral history interview with Mayer Lief

    Oral History

    Mayer Lief, born August 18, 1908 in Lemberg, Galicia (Lʹviv, Ukraine), discusses his childhood; his schooling in Lemberg; experiencing antisemitism; his experiences in the Polish Army; his family's attempts to emigrate from Poland to the United States in 1939; the Russian occupation of Lemberg and Eastern Poland in 1939; the German invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, and Mayer's capture that same day; digging mass graves for the Germans; the issuing of armbands and the establishment of the ghetto in Lemberg by the Germans; living in the ghetto beginning in November 1941; his move to and stay at German Army facilities until June 1943 due to his skills as a locksmith and safe cracker; his imprisonment in Janowska concentration camp in Ukraine in June 1943 and his eventual escape from the camp; his purchase of false papers in August 1943 in order to avoid capture by the Germans; his life in a suburb of Lemberg until the liberation by the Russians in 1944; traveling to Poland in 1946; his time in a displaced persons camp in Germany around 1946; immigrating to the United States in 1949; his time in Boston, MA and New York; arriving in Elizabeth, NJ and reuniting with his mother; his marriage in 1954; and his work since his arrival in the United States.

    Oral history interview with Isak Levenstein

    Oral history interview with Isak Levenstein

    Oral History

    Isak Levenstein discusses his childhood in a town near Lublin, Poland; moving to Kraków, Poland to live with his uncle after his parents' deaths; his education in Kraków; his work as the owner of a pots and pans factory; getting married on December 29, 1931; the size and professions of the Jewish population in Kraków; his membership in Mizrachi and Hechalutz Zionist organizations; antisemitism in Kraków in the mid-1930s; the banning of ritual slaughter in Kraków; Polish collaboration with the Nazis; the murdering of 1.2 million children by the Nazis during the Holocaust; the saving of Jews by very few Poles; the hiding of his wife's family in a bunker near Kraków and their eventual murder; his and his wife's move into the Kraków ghetto in 1941; his memories of the instructions given to the Judenrat by the Nazis; the deportation of Jews from Kraków to Treblinka and Auschwitz concentration camps; his memories of Jewish religious observances in the ghetto; his time in hiding in order to escape selections; a comprehensive round-up that took place in the ghetto in 1943 and the hiding of his family in a bunker during the roundup; his imprisonment in Płaszów concentration camp; his effort to save his family by bribing a German commander; the hiding of his children in the bunks of Płaszów concentration camp for 14 months; his inability to save his children; his qualifications as a metal worker; his time in Oskar Schindler's Gross-Rosen and Brünnlitz factories; his memories of Oskar Schindler; his wife's time in Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen concentration camps; his and his wife's search for relatives after the war; his thoughts on the differences between the Poles and the Czechs after the war; his and his wife's visit to Theresienstadt concentration camp; his separation from his wife between October of 1944 and August of 1945; their immigration to the United States after World War II; visiting Israel 25 times; and starting of a construction company with two other Schindler Jews in New Jersey.

    Oral history interview with Sally Levenstein

    Oral history interview with Sally Levenstein

    Oral History

    Sally Levenstein, born in 1909, discusses her childhood in Kazimierza Wielka, Poland; the Jewish community in Kazimierza Wielka; the death of her father in 1918; her education in Kazimierza Wielka and in Kraków, Poland; the relationship between the Gentiles and the Jews in Kazimierza Wielka; getting married to Isak Levenstein in 1931 and moving to Kraków; the size and level of religious observance of the Jewish community in Kraków; her social life in Kraków; her involvement with the Jewish National Fund; the birth of her two children in 1932 and in 1937; the start of World War II in 1939; the betrayal of her sister by a Polish neighbor; the arrival of Jews in Poland, deported from Germany; the establishment of the Kraków ghetto; her work in a factory making stockings for German soldiers; her memories of selections that took place in the ghetto; the Judenrat and the Jewish police in the ghetto; the establishment of Płaszów concentration camp in 1942; the liquidation of the Kraków ghetto in 1943; hiding in a bunker with her children for 70 days near Kraków; her husband's imprisonment at Płaszów concentration camp; her memories of searching for food for her children while in hiding; her husband's smuggling of the children into Płaszów to be with him; her time hiding in the factory where she worked; her voluntary movement to Płaszów concentration camp to be with her family; the help that she received for her children from Mrs. Rosner; the roundup of all the children in Płaszów; her and her husband's inability to save their own children; the move of her husband and other family members by Oskar Schindler to his Brünnlitz factory in Czechoslovakia; her deportation to and time in Birkenau concentration camp; her memories of selections by Dr. Josef Mengele for the gas chamber; her aimless work while she was imprisoned in Birkenau; Dr. Menegle's experiments on inmates in Auschwitz; her transfer from Birkenau to Auschwitz; being in a death march to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp and the shooting of those prisoners who stopped marching; her experiences in Bergen-Belsen and her bout with typhus while in the camp; her time in a hospital during the time of liberation; the death of inmates from over-eating after liberation; an invitation to the survivors by the Queen of Portugal to come to Portugal after World War II; her search for her family after the war; her reunion with her husband in Kraków and their return to their apartment there; the help that they received from the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency; their time in Vienna, Austria and in Bindermichl displaced persons camp; the birth of her daughter in Bindermichl; her family's immigration to the United States in 1949; their life in New York and their move to New Jersey where her husband started a construction company; and her reflections on the Holocaust.

    Oral history interview with Manya Mandelbaum

    Oral history interview with Manya Mandelbaum

    Oral History

    Manya Mandelbaum, on August 16, 1919, discusses her childhood in Debica and Kraków, Poland; the Jews' relationship with the Poles inside and outside of Kraków; antisemitism in Poland in the late 1930s; the start of World War II in 1939 and her memories of radio announcements urging the Jews to flee from Poland; her attempted escape east to Russia in 1939; the German bombings that forced her to return to Kraków; the anti-Jewish laws and Nazi proclamations in Kraków; her time in the Kraków ghetto; her marriage to Simon Mandelbaum in 1940; the deportation of her parents in 1940; her movement to Płaszów concentration camp; the gassing of children in Auschwitz concentration camp; her work for the Madritsch firm making blouses (Julius Madritsch’s factory in Płaszów); the deportation of Jews to Mauthausen and Auschwitz concentration camps; the shooting of her brother in 1945; her deportation to Auschwitz and the conditions there; her transport to Hamburg, Germany, in January 1945 to work in a plastic factory and a beating she received from a German guard there; her observance of Passover in the camp; her escape from the factory with four other girls and the help that they received from some Poles; the arrival of British and American soldiers in April 1945; her time in Bitterfeld, Germany and in Prague, Czech Republic after the war; her travel to a hospital in Wels, Austria to find her husband; her reunion with her husband in Poland; the help that they received from the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; their immigration to the United States in 1949; their life after the war in Brooklyn, NY and Elizabeth and Hillside, NJ; her ability to talk about the Holocaust with her children and grandchildren; and her love for the United States and Israel.

    Oral history interview with Allen Moskowitz

    Oral history interview with Allen Moskowitz

    Oral History

    Allen Moskowitz, born on March 27, 1923, discusses his childhood in Brusnica, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia); his family's move to Svidnicka, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia) in 1937; his time in Yeshiva in Šurany, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia) in 1939; his move back to Svidnicka at the outbreak of World War II in 1939; his parents' distrust of the Germans; antisemitism in Czechoslovakia; his family's obtaining false papers and hiding in Czechoslovakia; the German occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1944; his mother's hiding with a Gentile family who subsequently forced her to leave; his capture by the Gestapo in 1944; his imprisonment in Sered concentration camp as a Mischlinge; his interaction with Nazi Commandant Alois Brunner; his mother's work as a cook at an inn; his transport to Sachsenhausen concentration camp in 1943 and his subsequent march to Heinkel concentration camp; his march to Siemensstadt concentration camp; his transfer to Ohrdruf concentration camp; a beating he received in Ohrdruf; his ongoing belief in God and religion; the morning roll calls in Ohrdruf; the Kapos in Ohrdruf; his march to Crawinkel concentration camp; the shooting of prisoners on their way from Crawinkel to Buchenwald concentration camp; falling ill with typhus; the liberation of Buchenwald by the Americans; his return to his home town and his reunion with surviving members of his family; his discovery of the fate of his father and 14 year old brother; his family's immigration to France and then to Palestine at the end of World War II; his later immigration to the United States via France after World War II; the role of Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandel, his rabbi and “hero of the Holocaust”; the fate of his extended family members during the Holocaust; his life in Brooklyn, NY; his marriage and his life in Elizabeth, NJ; his decision not to talk about the Holocaust with his family; his feelings towards the Germans in World War II; and his thoughts on what can be learned from the Holocaust. Also contains a photograph of Allen in 1946 and a photograph of him in 1993.

    Oral history interview with Sonya Oshman

    Oral history interview with Sonya Oshman

    Oral History

    Sonya Oshman, born on December 17, 1922, discusses her childhood in Novogrudok, Poland (now Navahrudak, Belarus); growing up in a wealthy family; her family's near deportation to Serbia by the Russians; her Polish neighbors being sometimes helpful and sometimes antisemitic; her sister's death in a German bombing raid; the elderly and the very young being murdered first; young people being used in forced labor; her memories of her father before his death in a concentration camp; her family's escape from a ghetto through a tunnel; the "Aktion" in the ghetto following their escape; her brother's immigration to Israel following liberation; her five years in a displaced persons camp in Italy; and her move to the United States with her husband in 1950. Also contains two photographs of Sonya (one is dated June 1988 and the other is undated).

    Oral history interview with Liesel Mayerfeld

    Oral history interview with Liesel Mayerfeld

    Oral History

    Liesel Mayerfeld, born in 1933, discusses her early childhood in Frankfurt, Germany; her memories of pre-war life in Frankfurt; her memories of Kristallnacht in November 1938; her father's deportation to Buchenwald concentration camp during Kristallnacht; her move to the Netherlands with her sister following Kristallnacht; her life in the Netherlands with her uncle; her mother's work to get her father released from Buchenwald; her father's release from Buchenwald; her father's travel to England in July 1939; her mother's travel with an infant son to England in August 1939; moving to England in January of 1940; her family's move to Detroit, MI in 1940; her reaction to American culture and the English language; her brother's move to Israel; and her current life in Elizabeth, NJ.

    Oral history interview with Lisa Reibel

    Oral history interview with Lisa Reibel

    Oral History

    Lisa Reibel, born in 1930, discusses her childhood in Novogrudok, Poland (now Navahrudak, Belarus); her memories of her siblings, specifically her sister, Rae Kushner; her memories of the Russian occupation in 1939; the German occupation of 1941; the thriving Jewish community in Novogrudok; her reaction to her sister's murder; the murder of 5,000 Jews in December 1941; her plan to dig an escape tunnel out of the Novogrudok ghetto; crawling through the tunnel at night; hiding in bushes, barns, and underground bunkers; Tuvia Bielski's partisans; liberation by the Russians in 1945; her time in a displaced persons camp in Italy; her move to the United States in 1949; and her life in Brooklyn, NY, and in Elizabeth, NJ. Also contains photographs of Lisa Reibel in 1994 and one of her at an earlier date.

    Oral history interview with Paul Schmelzer

    Oral history interview with Paul Schmelzer

    Oral History

    Paul Schmelzer, born September 3, 1916 in Gwoździec, Poland (Hvizdets', Ukraine), discusses his life before World War II; antisemitism in Poland; his time serving in the Polish Army from 1937 until 1939; being a prisoner of war in 1939; living in the Gwoździec ghetto; his time in the ghetto in Kolomyya (Kolomyia), Ukraine; being in numerous slave labor camps in Ukraine; his numerous escapes from the Germans throughout the war years; meeting his wife, Susan, in Tolstoye (Tovste), Ukraine, in 1941; hiding in the homes of many different Polish farmers; moving to Chernivtsi, Ukraine before liberation; his time in various displaced persons camps administered by the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration in Germany and Czechoslovakia; moving to the United States with his wife and son in 1949; living in Bronx, NY from 1949 until 1970; and moving to Elizabeth, NJ in 1970. Also contains a photograph of Paul Schmelzer in 1988.

    Oral history interview with Susan Schmelzer

    Oral history interview with Susan Schmelzer

    Oral History

    Susan Schmelzer, born on February 23, 1923, discusses her childhood in Zaleshchiki, Poland (Ukraine); antisemitism in Zaleshchiki; the Russian occupation of Zaleshchiki from 1939 until 1942; the German occupation of Zaleshchiki in 1942; the mass murder of 2,000 Jews from Zaleshchiki in November 1942; her secular, public school education; moving from Zaleshchiki in order to continue her education; her move with her family to the ghetto in Tolstoye (Tovste), Ukraine; performing slave labor in the fields outside of the Tolstoye ghetto in March 1943; meeting her future husband, Paul Schmelzer; the murder of her parents and sister along with 3,000 other Jews from the Tolstoye ghetto; her time hiding with her future husband and a girlfriend until they were liberated by Russians in March; moving with her future husband to Czernowitz (Chernivtsi), Ukraine after liberation; getting married to Paul Schmelzer in Czernowitz; moving to Germany; immigrating with her husband and son to the United States in 1949; and her life in the United States after 1949. Also contains a photograph of Susan Schmelzer in 1987.

    Oral history interview with Adela Sommer

    Oral history interview with Adela Sommer

    Oral History

    Adela Sommer, born in 1923 in Tluste, Poland (now Tovste, Ukraine), discusses her early life in Tluste; her education at Hebrew school; antisemitism in Tluste; relations between Gentiles and Jews in the Tluste area; the German invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941; the attacks against Jews before the Germans arrived in Tluste; the protests against anti-Jewish activities by two local priests; the setting up of a ghetto in Tluste; the restrictions on the movement of the town's Jewish population; the German Aktion of May 27, 1943, during which 3,000 people were killed; the family's construction of a bunker in an old attic; the help of Hungarian soldiers in disguising the crying of a baby hidden in the attic from the Germans; the deliberate introduction of typhus into the Jewish population in order to label them as contaminated and the effects of typhus; her work as a knitter in a neighboring village; the efforts of one German to protect Jews from an Aktion; her work with the sick; the death of her mother on February 17, 1944; the shooting of her sister and her sister's family; her liberation by the Soviets in March of 1944; her work as a bookkeeper in a Romanian brewery; her invitation to a displaced persons camp in Ulm, Germany, by her cousin, the camp's director; going to the displaced persons camp in Ebensee, Austria; going to Föhrenwald displaced persons camp in Germany; the birth of her twins in 1947; her immigration to the United States on March 13, 1951 with the help of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee; and her life in Elizabeth, NJ, and the need for survivors to speak about the Holocaust.

    Oral history interview with Jack Spiegel

    Oral history interview with Jack Spiegel

    Oral History

    Jack Spiegel, born on March 17, 1918, discusses his childhood in Łódź, Poland; his reaction to being the only surviving family member after the Holocaust; his family's life in the ghetto in Warsaw, Poland; smuggling food into the Warsaw ghetto; traveling secretly to Brzeziny, Koluszki, and Opatów, Poland; his reunion with family in the Warsaw ghetto; his deportation to Minsk and then Babruisk (Bobruysk) in Belarus; the Bobruisk concentration camp; the regular Sunday murders at Bobruisk; working in the camp kitchen; his work at Flossenbürg concentration camp; transports between camps; the walk to Dachau concentration camp; working in a V-2 rocket testing tunnel; being liberated by Americans on April 29, 1945; his convalescence in Lyon, France, for eight months; moving to Israel in 1948; immigrating to the United States in 1960; and his life on Staten Island, NY. Also contains a photograph of Jack Speigel and his family in the 1920s.

    Oral history interview with Abraham Zuckerman

    Oral history interview with Abraham Zuckerman

    Oral History

    Abraham Zuckerman discusses his childhood in Kraków, Poland; his memories of Jewish and Gentile relations before World War II; his memories of forced labor in Kraków after the Nazis took over; the establishment of the Kraków ghetto; his memories of rationing in Kraków; his move, with his family, to Dukla, Poland; his transport, with his family, to Biala Podlaska, Poland; his memories of forced labor in Biala Podlaska; his return, with his family, to Dukla; his family's transport to and subsequent dissapearance from Dukla; his transport to the Rzeszów ghetto in Poland; his transport to Plaszów, Poland; his transport to and time in Julag concentration camp in Plaszów, Poland; his work in Schindler's enamel factory, for a year, until Aug. 1944; his memories of Oskar Schindler; his transport from Schindler's factory to Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria; his memories of forced labor in Mauthausen; his transport to and time in Gusen concentration camp in Austria; his liberation by Americans from Gusen on May 5, 1945; his move to Linz, Austria, after liberation; his life in Bindermichl displaced persons camp in Austria from May 1945 until May 1949; his memories of meeting and marrying his wife, Mina, in Bindermichl; his move, with his wife and the first of their three children, to the United States on May 29, 1949; and his life in New Jersey after 1949. Also contains a photograph of Abraham Zuckerman in 1935 and one of him in 1991

    Oral history interview with Paul Gast

    Oral history interview with Paul Gast

    Oral History

    Paul Gast, born in Łódź, Poland on November 16, 1926, discusses his childhood in Łódź; his reaction to being the only survivor in his family after the Holocaust; his father's murder in the 1939 Aktion in Łódź; his move to the Łódź ghetto in 1940; his work in a factory in Łódź; his memories of primitive ghetto conditions; his transport to Auschwitz; his separation from his mother at selection in Auschwitz; his transport to Braunschwieg concentration camp; his memories of Ravensbrück concentration camp; his memories of Watenstedt, a labor camp in Germany; his description of horrible conditions at Ludwigslust concentration camp; seeing Russian soldiers cook human flesh at Ludwigslust; his liberation by American soldiers in May 1945 from Ludwigslust; his move to England in 1945; his education in British schools and universities; moving to New York in 1952; his military service in Korea; his move to Oklahoma; and his life in Verona, NJ.

    Oral history interview with Mina Zuckerman

    Oral history interview with Mina Zuckerman

    Oral History

    Millie (Mina) Zuckerman, born in September 1925, discusses her childhood in Humniska, Poland; the German occupation of Humniska in 1939; the air bombings of local refineries in 1939; her work, from 1939 to 1942, in nearby Brzozów, Poland, carrying stones for roads; being forced to move, along with the rest of the Jewish population from Humniska to Brzozów in 1942; life in Brzozów; her school friend, Helena Kerda; hiding with her father, mother, and older sister in the home of Michalina Kerda, Helena's mother, in Brzozów from 1942 until 1944; her father's secret trade of goods for money with a Polish man named Krekovsky; the liberation of Brzozów in August 1944 by the Russians; moving to Budapest, Hungary with her family in the fall of 1944; receiving food and clothing from the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS) and the Red Cross while in Budapest; her time, with her family, in Bindermichl displaced persons camp in Linz, Austria from May 1945 until 1949; meeting her husband, Abraham Zuckerman, in Bindermichl in 1947. At the conclusion of the interview, Mina Zuckerman invited her friend, Helena Kedra Bocon, to share her memories of Mina's time in hiding in Helena's mother's home in Brzozów, Poland. Also contains a photograph of Mina Zuckerman at age 8 and one of her at the time of the interview.

    Oral History interview with Henry Butensky

    Oral History interview with Henry Butensky

    Oral History

    Henry Butensky, born on August 12, 1922 in Harlem, NY, discusses his childhood in Bronx, NY; how his parents and siblings emigrating from Palestine; his Jewish home; his enlistment in the 71st U.S. Infantry in 1942; his memories of wanting to help his fellow Jews in Europe by fighting in the U.S. Army; his memories of traveling to Europe for battle; his memories of occupying the I.G. Farben factory following the German evacuation; his memories of General Patton's order to capture young Nazi resisters; his memories of Wels II concentration camp; his memories of emaciated prisoners in Wels II; his memories of communicating with a Wels II prisoner in Yiddish; his memories of Straubing labor camp in Germany; his memories of corpses in ditches at Straubing; his time in Gunskirchen concentration camp after liberation; his memories of the bodies of prisoners, who attempted to flee, in the woods around Gunskirchen; and his recollections learning of Auschwitz through a friend after World War II.

    Oral history interview with David Dorfman

    Oral history interview with David Dorfman

    Oral History

    David Dorfman, born on January 22, 1933 in Brussels, Belgium, discusses his childhood in Brussels; crossing the English Channel enroot to Liverpool, England from Antwerp, Belgium; his move to the United States with his father in 1939; his parents' marriage of convenience; his mother's and his siblings' experiences in Gurs concentration camp in 1942; his mother becoming pregnant by a guard in Gurs; his mother receiving permission to leave the camp to give birth to his sister Claudine; his mother escaping along with the newborn Claudine; his mother joining the Maquis French underground group in 1943; his mother's second marriage to an Auschwitz survivor; growing up in New York, NY; his sister's move to the United States from Switzerland in 1947; expressing his Holocaust memories through his art; his mother's death being an inspiration for his art; his artwork of Bergen-Belsen, Chelmno, Nordhausen, Majdanek, and Ravensbrück concentration camps; expressing the human extremes of tenderness and cruelty in his artwork; and his life in Mine Hill, N.J. Also contains photographs of David Dorfman in March 1956 and in 1993.

    Oral history interview with Max Findling

    Oral history interview with Max Findling

    Oral History

    Max Findling, born in Zmigród, Poland on July 28, 1923, discusses his childhood in Zmigród; antisemitism in Zmigród; the formation of a Judenrat in Zmigród in 1940; performing forced labor during the winter of 1941; the Gestapo in Zmigród; his transport from Zmigród to Jaslo, Poland in 1942; his time in prison in Jaslo; being sent to Płaszów concentration camp in July 1942; escaping from Płaszów after two weeks; hiding in Poland; returning to Zmigród and hiding; performing forced labor in Jaslo; his sister's murder with 40 or 50 other prisoners in the forest outside of Warzyce, Poland; being transported from Jaslo to Julag I concentration camp in Płaszów, Poland; his bout with typhus in 1943 while in Julag I; his transport to and time in Jerozolimska concentration camp (most likely part of Płaszów); his brother's death from pneumonia in Skarzysko-Kamienna concentration camp in 1944; his transport to and time in Hasag concentration camp in Czestochowa, Poland; Georg Bartenschlager, a S.S. officer who was in charge of Hasag; being liberated from Hasag by Russians; returning to Zmigród; his time in Bucharest, Romania; his time in Padua, Italy; his time in Israel; his marriage in 1949; immigrating to the United States in 1955; his testimony in a trial in 1972 at the request of the American Jewish Congress in Drawsko Pomorskie, Poland, against Germans accused of killing Jews; and his life in the United States. Also contains a photograph of Max Findling in 1949 and a photograph of him in 1976.

    Oral History interview with Lilly Gottlieb

    Oral History interview with Lilly Gottlieb

    Oral History

    Lilly Gottlieb, born in 1925 in in Vienna, Austria, discusses her childhood in Vienna; her recollections of antisemitism in Vienna; Kristallnacht in 1938; her mother's wool and yarn business; her uncle's deportation to Dachau concentration camp and the return of his ashes in an urn; getting a United States visa; her parents' money in banks in the US; her father's journey to Belgium and going to Belgium later with her mother; living in Antwerp, Belgium and experiencing antisemitism; the German invasion of Belgium; her father's time in St. Cyprien, Les Milles, and Gurs concentration camps; thinking that their escape was an adventure; leaving France for Casablanca, Morocco in 1942; traveling to Cuba via Jamaica in 1942; living in Cuba from 1942 to 1948; marching in solidarity with other Jews in Havana; moving to the United States in 1948; returning to Cuba in 1952; leaving Cuba in 1961 to escape Castro's regime; her recent visits to Vienna; and her life in the United States.

    Oral history interview with Zygmunt Gottlieb

    Oral history interview with Zygmunt Gottlieb

    Oral History

    Zygmunt Gottlieb, born on December 9, 1923 in Kopychyntsi, Ukraine, discusses his childhood in Kopychyntsi; his orthodox upbringing; the poor conditions before World War II in Kopychyntsi; his memories of antisemitism in Ukraine; his memories of the Russian occupation from 1939 to 1941; his memories of the German occupation from 1941 to 1944; his recollections of the Kopychyntsi ghetto; his transport to the Kamionki labor camp; his recollections of 65 survivors of the original 5,000 to 6,000 Jews of Kopychyntsi; his memories of Aktions in Kamionki; his memories of the Ternopol labor camp; his escape during an Aktion; his memories of hiding in the barn of a Polish officer; his memories of hiding with his father and other relatives in an underground bunker; his liberation by the Russians in March 1944; his enlistment in the Soviet Army; his release from the army due to the fact he claimed to be a teacher before the war; his memories of testifying at a Mannheim war crimes trial; his travels to Vienna, Austria and Munich, Germany after the war; and his life in the United States after May 1951.

    Oral history interview with Alice Lefkovic

    Oral history interview with Alice Lefkovic

    Oral History

    Alice Lefkovic, born July 8, 1926, describes her childhood in Brezova Pod Bradlom, Slovakia; the antisemitism that followed Slovakian independence in 1940; her father's deportation to Majdanek concentration camp in 1941; attempting to flee to Hungary, her arrest, and her subsequent release due to the intervention of a mysterious benefactor; eventually arriving in Hungary with the help of a family member; reuniting with family members in Budapest, Hungary; deportations of Jews from Hungary in May 1944; being deported to Sered concentration camp in Czechoslovakia; her subsequent transport to Therensienstadt concentration camp; participating in forced labor while in Theresienstadt; her liberation by the Red Army; her life in Prague, Czech Republic following the war; her immigration to Israel after World War II; and her immigration to the United States in 1967. Includes photographs of Alice Lefkovic in 1947 and 1989.

    Oral history interview with Charles Levine

    Oral history interview with Charles Levine

    Oral History

    Charles Levine, born June 15, 1915 in Augustów, Poland, discusses his childhood; the immigration of his brother to the United States in 1923; being drafted into the Polish Army in 1939 and his wagon trip to the Soviet Union while in the army; his return to Augustów after his military service; his memories of Augustów under Soviet rule; the German invasion of Augustów on June 22, 1941; his time in the Augustów ghetto; his memories of Chaim Mordechai Rumkowski; being deported to Bogusze concentration camp on November 2, 1942 and his memories of the atrocities that took place in Bogusze; the transport of 6,000 Jews to Treblinka concentration camp and their murder there; being sent to Birkenau concentration camp in January 1943; building the crematoria; the killing of 24,000 Jews in the crematoria in Birkenau; the gassing of his sister and parents in Birkenau; receiving a tattooed number 85719 while he was in Birkenau; the extraction of gold from the teeth of dead prisoners; being sent to Gross-Rosen concentration camp in January 1945; a Romani camp in Gross-Rosen; the hanging of an escapee in front of the inmates in Gross-Rosen; being transported to Buchenwald concentration camp in February 1945; doing forced labor in Weimar, Germany; digging graves for German soldiers; being liberated by American soldiers April 13, 1945, and his memories of General Dwight Eisenhower's visit to Buchenwald shortly after liberation; traveling through Europe after liberation; the shooting of one of his friends by a member of the Armia Krajowa; his time in a displaced persons camp in Italy; his marriage in 1947 and his immigration to the United States in 1949; his life in New Jersey; and his personal reflections on the Holocaust. Photographs of Charles Levine in Italy in 1945 and in 1992 accompany the interview.

    Oral history interview with Eva Laks

    Oral history interview with Eva Laks

    Oral History

    Eva Laks, born in Ryki, Poland, on March 10, 1922, describes her family's move to Jankowiec nad Wisla, Poland, after a fire; antisemitism in Janowiec nad Wisla, Poland; the arrival of German troops in Janowiec nad Wisla in 1939 and the evacuation of the Jews from the city; living with her family in Zwoleń, Poland; being deported with her father to a concentration camp; her imprisonment at Skarzysko-Kamienna concentration camp and her work in an ammunition factory; the evacuation of the prisoners of Skarzysko-Kamienna and their forced march to Leipzig, Germany; being liberated by the Russian Army during the march; traveling to Kraków, Poland and staying in a house for concentration camp victims; her marriage and move to Prague, Czech Republic; moving to Landsberg am Lech, Germany; the birth and death of her first child; immigrating to New Orleans, LA in 1950; moving to New Jersey; and the death of her first husband and her second marriage. Photographs of Eva Laks accompany the interview.

    Oral history interview with Naftali Laks

    Oral history interview with Naftali Laks

    Oral History

    Naftali Laks, born on June 1, 1922 in Zmigród, Poland, discusses his childhood and his family in Zmigród; walking 60 miles towards the Russian border before being captured by the Germans; laying railroad tracks; the Germans burning and destroying synagogues and houses of study; the summer of 1942 when 60 percent of Zmigród's population was liquidated in a pogrom; the liquidation of the Zmigród ghetto in 1943; his sister's sexual assault by a policeman in Tarnów, Poland; his deportation to Płaszów concentration camp and subsequently contracting typhus; the Skarzysko-Kamienna concentration camp and staying alive with the help of his sisters; being transported between several concentration camps, among them Buchenwald, Flossenbürg, and Mauthausen; the terrible conditions at Mauthausen; his reaction to seeing American bomber planes; Passover in 1945 at Mauthausen; British Spitfires firing on transport trains; American troops liberating Mauthausen; his search for his sisters in Czechoslovakia; his journey to Israel with his sisters and his life there from 1952 to 1959; moving to the United States in 1959; his marriage in 1961 and his wife's death in 1969; and his remarriage in 1972 and his life with his new wife, also a Holocaust survivor. Also contains four photographs; one of Naftali Laks' family in 1938, one of his home in Zmigród, Poland, and 2 of Naftali at a mass grave site in August 1993.

    Oral history interview with Leonard Linton

    Oral history interview with Leonard Linton

    Oral History

    Leonard Linton, born on January 1, 1922, discusses his training in the Military Government of the United States Army; his language abilities; his service with the 82nd Airborne Division during the occupation of Ludwigslust, Germany; his memories of the Nazi mayor of Ludwigslust; his experience during and after the liberation of Wöbbelin concentration camp; helping nurse concentration camp survivors at a railway station; and his opinion that General James M. Gavin's crossing of the Elbe River saved the lives of the Wöbbelin prisoners. Photographs of Leonard Linton in the mid-1940s and 1993 accompany the interview.

    Oral history interview with Henry Lowenbraun

    Oral history interview with Henry Lowenbraun

    Oral History

    Henry Lowenbraun, born on August 1, 1922 in Lancut, Poland, discusses his childhood in Lancut; his imprisonment in the Rzeszów ghetto in 1942; the killings and Aktions that took place in Rzeszów; his illness with stomach typhus; his selection in the ghetto for labor; escaping from the ghetto to the forest near Lácut and his time hiding there; his voluntary return to the ghetto in the spring of 1942 to be with his sister; being transported to Szebnie concentration camp in the spring of 1943; the shooting and hanging of inmates by the commandant in Szebnie; the Appel in Szebnie, during which every tenth prisoner was executed; the commandant's receiving of a death sentence after World War II; his movement to Mordarka, Poland to a train station in 1943; the murder of a large group of Kraków Jews in Mordarka; the train ride to Auschwitz concentration camp in the fall of 1943; his interaction with Dr. Josef Mengele; a beating that he received in Auschwitz for not picking up a stone; his movement to Monowitz concentration camp, a subcamp of Auschwitz, to work in the I.G. Farben Buna factory; the bombing of the Farben factory; the hanging of two inmates at the Appel at Monowitz; a death march in January of 1945 to Glebowice, Poland; his 12 day cattle train ride to Nordhausen concentration camp, a sub camp of Dora concentration camp; his illness with pneumonic pleurisy; the liberation of the camp by troops led by General Dwight Eisenhower while he was in the hospital; his time in Degerloch displaced persons camp near Stuttgart, Germany from 1945 to 1949; his marriage to his wife in 1946; the fate of his family during the Holocaust; his immigration to the United States on April 6, 1949; his life after World War II in Brooklyn, NY and Newark, NJ; and his general reflections on the Holocaust. Also contains a photocopy of a document that certifies Henry as a concentration camp prisoner, a photocopy of a photograph of Henry in his concentration camp uniform dated 1946, and four additional undated photocopies of photographs.

    Oral history interview with Paul Monka

    Oral history interview with Paul Monka

    Oral History

    Paul Monka, born in 1920 in Bedzin, Poland, describes his childhood in Bedzin; his father's textile business; his time studying in Piotrków Trybunalski, Poland; his memories of antisemitism in Piotrków Trybunalski and throughout Poland before, during, and after the World War II; his family's involvement in Zionism; his memories of a curfew and other anti-Jewish laws in Bedzin after 1939; his recollections of demeaning forced labor in Bedzin after 1939; his recollections of the Bedzin ghetto; his encounter with the Gestapo while working in a factory in Silesia; his subsequent arrest and time in solitary confinement in a Gestapo prison in Katowice, Poland; his time in the hospital after surviving solitary confinement and meeting Yanek; his acceptance into the Armia Ludowa resistance group by Yanek; his memories of selections from the Bedzin ghetto; his escape from Bedzin to the Armia Ludowa headquarters in the woods; his recollections of the formation of a Judenrat in Bedzin; his sabotage actions as part of the underground movement; his sister's illness and death from tuberculosis; his liberation by Russians; his memories of Zavatsky, the Polish General; his time as Security Chief of Silesia after the war; his memories of the Muselmänner who survived Auschwitz concentration camp; his recollections of the death marches from the camps at the end of the war; his feelings of bitterness toward the United States for refusing to accept his sister for immigration and for the lack of response in general; his time in Italy from 1945 to 1946; his work for the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee and for the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; his move to the United States on November 21, 1949; and his life in the United States after 1949.

    Oral history interview with Walter Nachtigall

    Oral history interview with Walter Nachtigall

    Oral History

    Walter Nachtigall, born in 1931 in Vienna, Austria, discusses the jubilation in Austria during the Anschluss on March 13, 1938 and the overt antisemitism that followed; his experiences during Kristallnacht in Austria on November 9, 1938; his father's imprisonment in Dachau concentration camp during Kristallnacht; going to England and Scotland along with his sister in order to avoid Nazi persecution; staying in Dysart, Scotland with a Christian family (James and Isa Salmond) during the summer of 1939; the release of his father from Dachau and his parent's immigration to Edinburgh, Scotland; his Jewish education by a Christian clergyman; reuniting with his parents and their immigration to the United States in 1939; and visiting Scotland in the late 1950s.

    Oral history interview with Judah Nadich

    Oral history interview with Judah Nadich

    Oral History

    Judah Nadich, born on May 13, 1912, discusses his role as General Dwight D. Eisenhower's adviser on Jewish affairs and displaced persons camps in 1945; his role as senior Jewish chaplain in the European Theater; the plan for non-Jewish and Jewish displaced persons after the World War II; President Harry S. Truman's designation of Earl G. Harrison, Dr. Joseph J. Schwartz, and a Commission to Europe to investigate the living conditions for displaced persons; Rabbi Stephen S. Wise's recommendation to General Eisenhower to appoint a Jewish adviser; visiting Dachau concentration camp in Germany shortly after its liberation in 1945; his time in Frankfurt, Germany, and his memories of meeting the only surviving rabbi of Frankfurt; visiting Feldafing displaced persons camp; General George S. Patton's feelings towards the Jews; General Patton's jurisdiction over displaced persons camps in Bavaria, Germany, and his demotion; the recommendations he made for improving the conditions in the displaced persons camps; visiting Landsberg displaced persons camp and the workshops that were set up in Landsberg for Jews; meeting with David Ben Gurion in Paris, France, and travelling with him to Zeilsheim displaced persons camp; Ben Gurion's emotional speech to the survivors in Zeilsheim; the singing of Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem by the survivors; his book entitled, Eisenhower and the Jews; the percentage of displaced persons who wanted to go to Israel versus the percentage of those who wanted to go to other places; a tour of a hospital for children at St. Ottilien, Germany; the "religious problems" he experienced after his time in Germany; his departure from the rabbinate to become the Jewish Displaced Persons Director for Germany; working on a United Jewish Appeal campaign; returning to the rabbinate in 1947; and his reflections on the Holocaust and displaced persons camps. Also includes a photograph of Judah Nadich when he was the guest of honor at the Jewish Theological Seminary Dinner accompanies the interview.

    Oral history interview with Herma Rappaport

    Oral history interview with Herma Rappaport

    Oral History

    Herma Rappaport, born in Vienna, Austria in 1924, discusses her childhood in Vienna; Kristallnacht; her family being put on house arrest for five days; a Gentile neighbor helping her family; moving with her mother to the Jewish section of Vienna after Kristallnacht; the release of her father and the physical abuse he suffered at the hands of the Germans; her father's stroke; being sent to England on a Kindertransport; arriving in London, England, and her life in the Woolwich section of the city living with a Jewish doctor and his wife; being in Wales at the outbreak of World War II; being in London during the German bombing raids; her mother's death in Theresienstadt in April 1944; he