- My name is Norma Stern.
- Today is May 22, 1985.
- I'm here to interview Emilie Lellouche, who
- is a survivor of the Nazi Holocaust.
- I'm doing this under the auspices of the Oral History
- Project, Jewish Community Council of Greater Washington.
- The purpose of this interview is to add
- to the oral history of the Nazi Holocaust
- so that through this living memorial,
- future generations will know what happened.
- With this knowledge, hopefully we
- can prevent any such occurrence in the future.
- My name is Norma Stern.
- Please tell me your full name.
- Emilie Lellouche, nee--
- I mean, born--
- Eichtersheimer.
- That's a long name but.
- What city were you born?
- I was born in Ittlingen. That's in Baden,
- and it was close to the next larger
- city would be Eppingen or Sinsheim, in Baden.
- Was called Unterbaden.
- I was-- want the date?
- Yes.
- I was born February 5, 1915 in Ittlingen, where already three
- generations of the family.
- And the business my father was in
- was the construction supplies, everything that one
- needs for construction.
- Could you tell me who was in your household before the war,
- before you left Germany?
- In my house-- before I left-- immediately
- before I left Germany, it was only my mother and myself.
- My father died in 1930, and my brother, who
- was six years older, had left--
- [CLEARING THROAT] excuse me-- could have gone in the family
- business, but decided not to because there were already two
- cousins of his in the business.
- So he decided to leave home, and he resided then in Berlin.
- What were your parents' names?
- My father's name was Markus, and my mother's name was Mathilde.
- And she was born a Lion, L-I-O-N,
- and was born in the upper part of Baden, in Ettenheim,
- not far from Freiburg in the Black Forest.
- And what year was your brother born?
- My brother was born in 1909.
- What was his name?
- His name was Felix--
- Felix Paul.
- And how long had your family lived in Germany?
- Really, all their life.
- Because like I said, the Eichtersheimer family,
- I realized when we visited in 1964, the cemeteries--
- there were three generations buried
- in the cemetery in Ittlingen.
- Did anyone in your family serve in the German army?
- First World War?
- Oh, yes.
- My father was in the German army.
- In fact, when I was born, he was still in the Russian--
- he was gone for four years.
- He came back from the Russian frontier,
- and he was very sick man then.
- And I don't think he never really completely recovered
- from this horrible ordeal.
- I mean, it was a great hardship, and I
- was born beginning, of course, of the war, 1915.
- Was your family politically active?
- Not really.
- Maybe my brother.
- While growing up, I could remember
- that he might belong to some kind of a youth group then--
- of course, the left wing group, of course, you know.
- But not too much.
- And then the difference in age was so great
- that I really couldn't recall.
- But my parents really would never--
- Did they take part in elections before Hitler came to power?
- Oh, I would think so.
- I mean, they were always good citizen.
- I mean, one was a good citizen.
- One was a good Jew, but one was a good German citizen upholding,
- of course, the laws.
- And I remember then--
- well, that comes later on, the inflation, all that.
- My grandfather had bought all those bonds
- to support the war efforts and everything else,
- so that showed that they were, of course,
- a good German citizen.
- At the same time good Jews, of course.
- Did your grandparents live nearby?
- My grandfather.
- One of my grandfathers, in fact, lived in the same house.
- This house was built around 1900, 1901.
- And of course, very solid with all the elements [PHONE RINGING]
- that should have gone into it.
- You were telling me about your grandfather?
- Yes.
- So my grandfather-- so this house
- was built for two families, really.
- And so my grandfather lived in the upper story,
- on the upper half of it.
- And had a housekeeper.
- And my mother's father also was alive.
- And he lived in Ettenheim in their home town
- where she was born.
- I never got to know my grandmothers.
- Grandmothers gone already, but I had much pleasure
- to be together with the grandfathers
- and visiting mother's hometown.
- And then also when my grandfather came visiting
- was always a big event.
- How far away were the two towns?
- Well, let me see.
- One was Unterbaden, and the other
- was Uberbaden, maybe a train ride of about six, seven hours.
- What was your parents' educational background?
- Well, it was the business life.
- Of course, my father was a businessman.
- Like any businessman in Germany or in Europe,
- would have his apprenticeship, which was very thorough.
- And then there was a business that already
- came from my grandfather.
- And there were three brothers.
- My father, had two brothers, and the three brothers
- went to the business together while the father was still
- overlooking it.
- And afterwards, of course, it became their responsibilities.
- And all three went into the war.
- That's the reason, of course, afterwards, that was
- the hardship that came about.
- Now, the women, after my mother's--
- my mother would tell us-- is, of course,
- couldn't even go into higher education at that time.
- I mean, it just started.
- But then again, big family and so on.
- So it was a basic--
- what we call elementary school.
- But they were rather thorough.
- And then came, of course, the--
- then came the cooking school, and the finishing school,
- or going into one of the finer homes
- and learn the whole idea of to keep a fine household.
- Or take the responsibilities of the household, of course.
- Was your family religious?
- Yes.
- Did they belong to a synagogue?
- Oh, yes.
- Always belonged to the synagogue.
- And there also was a small town where I was born.
- There was a nice, lovely synagogue.
- And I think the one who taught me that [? Lira ?] Hertz--
- I mean, the instructor, his name was Hertz--
- he also would conduct the services.
- Because you wouldn't have a rabbi in this time,
- but he would just be the overall man, and very thorough.
- And at the same time, I think he also was a shochet.
- He was just about everything in the small town,
- but very thorough.
- And that's the way I have my Hebrew knowledge from him.
- And--
- From the teacher?
- From this teacher-- the teacher, the rabbi, the one who
- was just an all-around person.
- And I would say that my Hebrew knowledge
- is thorough because of him.
- At five, six years old, I would recite the prayers.
- And so it was a very wonderful relationship
- that one would have.
- Did you go to these lessons after your public school?
- After public-- always after public school.
- What kind of synagogue?
- Would it be considered Orthodox by our standards,
- or conservative?
- I would think so, because we didn't have conservatism.
- You know, conservatism came much later.
- And so in Germany it only existed, I would say, orthodoxy.
- And then later on came the reform,
- which I never embraced, really, when I came to this country.
- I always had a conservative.
- Did your family keep kosher?
- Oh, yes.
- Were you a member of any Jewish youth groups?
- No, not really.
- I think the youth group, like, we had like a--
- my brother belonged to--
- well, more like a comparative to Girl Scout or Boy Scout,
- this type of thing.
- But I can't remember that there were any Jewish youth
- groups in this town.
- Was your family interested in Zionism?
- My uncle-- my immediate family, my father and mother,
- I can't remember.
- But I had my mother's youngest brother.
- My mother had nine sisters and brothers, and her youngest
- brother, Sigmund, or Shlomo, or what they call him later on.
- Anyway, Sigmund.
- Sigmund.
- He got interested in Zionism very early in his life, like 15,
- and then really--
- and got the whole family, I mean, to donate, and so on.
- But his interest was right there.
- And also, he did then went to Israel, to Palestine.
- When was that?
- Yeah, that was while I was in--
- let me see.
- I can't think of this.
- In '30-- 1938, he emigrated and married there
- also an ardent Zionist person that he knew from Berlin.
- And they went to Israel.
- And they have two sons there now.
- What kind of school did you go to before the Nazis came
- to power?
- Well, first, I had three years of elementary school.
- In fact, most people needed four years, but then I took a test
- and I got in after three years.
- And went to a hauptschule.
- The difference between hauptschule and gymnasium
- was that the hauptschule would go up to the [GERMAN],
- and then you would go to the gymnasium for your Abitur.
- That would be three more years of schooling.
- Those both were, of course, paying schools.
- And my Hochschule was in Eppingen. Eppingen was about,
- I don't know, it's maybe, I would
- say, about six, seven kilometers from Ittlingen.
- But you would take a little train, go every day,
- and take your lunch.
- And I had a lunch, and then I would go to some friends
- where I eat my lunch, and then go back.
- And that's where I got my education.
- And it was a very thorough education.
- And of course, most likely, I would have gone to Eppingen
- until the [GERMAN], which would have
- been six years of this particular schooling.
- And then would go to Sinsheim, where it--
- Sinsheim I was a little further.
- And there, I would have gone for the Abitur, which would
- have been three more years.
- But in 1930, my father died.
- And then, of course, it became very difficult.
- A bit difficult financially.
- Of course, by that time, the war had ended,
- and then the difficult part in Germany arrived then.
- And due to this, of course, this is when Hitler came to power.
- Because after the war everything was gone.
- The shelves were empty, the inflation came,
- and one was almost impoverished.
- And my father died then in 1930, and it
- was only a chest infection, and couldn't be saved.
- So then my mother decided that I had to leave school,
- but I had just finished my [GERMAN],
- which of course, is a certain, what do you call it?
- You know, many people only went that far.
- I mean, you had a good education when you came out,
- because I came out at 15 rather than at 16,
- had six years of French, five years of English.
- I mean, you had a rather thorough education.
- But anyway, the time came that it was difficult.
- So I left school.
- And with my mother, we moved then
- to Eppingen, which was the town that I went to school.
- And I applied for a job at a bank, [GERMAN], in Eppingen.
- And that was a [GERMAN], meaning from a larger bank,
- that the seed was in Heilbronn.
- Heilbronn was the next larger city,
- and Heilbronn actually was in Württemberg
- while we were in Baden.
- And I started working there, and it went well.
- Because it was an interesting job because the bank was small.
- And you would get all the different parts of the bank.
- I mean, you would learn from one transaction to the next,
- and be introduced to all the different--
- and the same time, you were required
- to go twice a week to a business school, which really, then,
- give you a thorough business education.
- Let me go back.
- In your hometown, were there many Jews?
- Well, not too many.
- I would visualize maybe 40 families.
- My grandfather was, for many years,
- the head of the congregation.
- And that meant the same time being
- responsible to collect we call dues now, but, I mean,
- it was almost a tax.
- Because the congregation had to sustain itself.
- You see, you didn't have rabbis in every city.
- You had a main rabbi that overlooked
- a whole part of the country.
- And I used to hear him say how you try to find out
- how much one owns, and how much one supposed to give,
- and how the wealth is sometimes-- well,
- they've showed a wealthy life, and yet still
- wasn't ready to give.
- There was something that I always remember,
- and I think this might indicate something special.
- In those small towns, you would definitely not
- show off your wealth.
- In contrary, you would go through the streets,
- and a lot of very subdued, and dressed simple--
- good clothes, but simple.
- The father, I mean, the men, would carry their top hats
- in a--
- they wouldn't wear them.
- In a bag?
- In a bag, and would take them to shul, and then wear them.
- Just no jewelry.
- Not to be obvious show-offs or anything like this.
- I thought that always impressed me very much in that respect.
- I think the reason was that one had a wonderful understanding
- with the community, but just one would always feel why as a Jew
- you would be a show-off.
- So this was a--
- Did the Jews live in one area?
- No.
- We were definitely what we would call
- raised in a Christian world.
- I mean, we were the minority, and we
- were intermingling with others.
- And why sometimes my grandfather would say,
- well, you shouldn't be going with this girl, or this,
- or that.
- But mainly, this was also because there were a little
- that he think beneath this financial, or something
- like this, or cultural, or whatever.
- But no, you definitely would grow up in a mixed society.
- I mean, you wouldn't--
- How were the relations between the Jews and the Christians?
- Well, like I said, if you follow this type of philosophy
- that you don't want to show anything above,
- that you are part of a community,
- it would go very well.
- There were some incidents.
- I mean, I remember very well, and I just
- mentioned it the other day when I was at a convention for ORT
- to one of the young women.
- I mean, we talk now, you see, of course, unfortunately,
- we have to live with antisemitism.
- One incident I had in my years in Hochschule,
- and that was a young French teacher.
- And one of the young women, one of the young pupils,
- called me a dirty Jew.
- And of course, that was--
- I mean, I was terribly embarrassed,
- I cried, and I went home, and talked to my mother.
- But at that particular point, which
- wasn't too far from the rest of the disaster that happened,
- you were able to talk to a teacher.
- And my mother would go up and talk to this teacher,
- and he appreciated the complaint.
- In turn, talked to the young woman, and maybe to the parents.
- I can't remember exactly.
- But I know one thing, that she excused herself and became
- very good friends after that.
- So those things were possible.
- You see, you could--
- it was there, but you could defend yourself.
- I mean, it's--
- And then you started working in the bank in Eppingen?
- I started working in the bank in Eppingen.
- Was that a larger town?
- That was a larger town, about 3,000 inhabitants.
- And that was--
- I worked there until 1933.
- Was there a Jewish community there?
- There was a Jewish community.
- In fact, I don't want to go into details, but I just
- had some news from someone who gave me a--
- that I haven't heard from this town in years.
- And I got a resumé of something that appeared in the paper
- now how they discovered elements now
- that actually, the Jewish community dates back to 1350 50
- or something.
- In fact, they have a 1,000 year celebration now.
- Anyway, but while this was then, of course, between '30 and '33,
- the disaster started.
- And the news over the radio, and the [NON-ENGLISH] hurling out
- Jewish slogans.
- And I can never forget when finally, they
- ordered the shochet and everything,
- everything was brought to that marketplace.
- And we lived right next to the marketplace,
- and they burned books, and all our--
- anything that had to do with Judaism
- that had to be brought there and destroyed.
- In '33?
- That was in '30.
- Maybe it was already in '32 because it was starting in '32.
- It also started-- we had very close friends then
- who were in business in this town-- in fact,
- in the same business and my parents were.
- And this family, Marx, like I said, were very good friends.
- And they came and wanted to close his store.
- And while he was getting into such a terrible rage,
- and he went up, and he got his Iron Cross set, of course,
- he had gotten during the war--
- during World War I during the war.
- But nothing, of course, helped, and they closed up his store.
- And so it became very difficult. And then
- in 1933, in Spring, then when Pesach came around,
- my uncle, my mother's brother who lived in Switzerland,
- invited us to come to spend Pesach with him
- since my father was dead.
- And so we went.
- But then my uncle advised my mother
- that I really shouldn't go back because then the young people
- were really already endangered, that you never
- know what could happen.
- And so I left my job, and I stayed in Switzerland
- for a while.
- And my mother had to return by herself.
- Well, one couldn't stay in Switzerland
- because one couldn't find a job.
- So I had family in Thionville-- that's in Lorraine--
- and they were wealthy family.
- Was my father's side.
- And every cousin that--
- I was the youngest in the family--
- had always spent some time with his family.
- You know, just some kind of a highlight in their lives.
- So we wrote, and I went there.
- I stayed there for six months.
- Of course, I perfected some of my French.
- Now, the French that spoken there, of course,
- is not a pure French because it was always--
- one time it was German, and then came French.
- And so it was a kind of a mixture.
- But it was an interesting--
- I mean, I learned a lot.
- Mainly that my cousin had just had her second child,
- and there was a nurse.
- And I watched that.
- I mean, since my mother hadn't had
- a chance to give me any kind of knowledge in that way.
- But that, too, became impossible.
- How could you stay there?
- I mean, as a young girl, something had to be done.
- Your career was interrupted.
- You had to find another something to do.
- Did you have any problem--
- What to do?
- --leaving Germany?
- Leaving Germany.
- Leaving Germany meant You could go to France,
- but you were not allowed to work.
- No work permit were permitted after this in that time.
- You see, they always were strained for work themselves,
- and they didn't--
- So the thing was, like I said, they let you come in,
- but what to do?
- So my cousin had a family in Paris,
- meaning her husband had a sister living there.
- So she wrote, and back come this flowering letter
- that I never forget in my life.
- It sounded just fantastic.
- I have this person.
- Person come, and she can stay with us.
- And the address, the address was fabulous.
- It was right on the Bois de Boulogne, it sounded, of course.
- And yes, she would offer me something to do in business.
- So I did, of course, immediately pack up and go.
- When was this?
- And that was in 1933, in the fall.
- Where was your mother at this time?
- In Germany.
- My mother had moved then--
- let me see.
- Yeah, my mother, since she was all by herself,
- had moved in to Freiburg.
- In Freiburg, she had one sister who had been living there
- for many years--
- I mean, established and everything.
- And so she went there, rented an apartment,
- and was very ready to find something to earn money,
- or to at least to survive.
- She rented a large apartment, and Freiburg was one
- of the large university towns.
- So what she did, she rented an apartment not too far
- from the campus, and would rent to students in that way,
- survive in a way that she was comfortable, just to survive.
- The meantime, I arrive in Paris.
- Of course, the address was lovely,
- but my room was, of course, under the roof, meaning the maid
- quarters.
- That part wasn't bad either.
- I mean, after all, this was what could one expect, right?
- It was sad, but it had-- that was--
- and then she introduced me to the business world.
- Of course, when you learn a foreign language,
- even you can be very good at it in school.
- When you get to the country it's, of course,
- very difficult to speak.
- And that was, of course, one of the problems.
- And the business was a lovely little shop
- across from the Louvre, Rue de Rivoli in Paris.
- And a lovely area, of course.
- This woman didn't know anything about business.
- It was just like an investment that she made,
- and had one manager in there.
- Well, this manager, of course, wasn't very delighted
- when I came in because she thought
- she put me in as some kind of a spy
- to let her know because she knew I was--
- What kind of business was it?
- That was a lingerie.
- It was a lingerie.
- Everything was handmade.
- We would buy the fabric from the silk manufacturer from Lyon.
- We would buy the laces, and then you
- would have workers coming in, mainly Armenians at that time.
- They would take the fabric, and the lace,
- and everything that needs to be to complete a garment,
- take it home, and then bring it back.
- And at the store was a little corner
- where we would iron out the garment,
- and then put it in stock.
- Other things would be cut out, and then sent to,
- what do you call that, cloisters?
- The nuns.
- And they would do the embroidery,
- and then it would come back.
- So it was the finest.
- And it was, of course, nice element.
- I mean, nice.
- But the difficulty, of course, was
- with this woman who just hated me because of this situation.
- But I survived that, too, until somebody
- must have talked and found out that I was working.
- She never gave me a salary.
- All I had was food, and lodging, and maybe
- a tiny little bit of pocket money.
- But even that, of course, wasn't allowed.
- So the police start bothering her.
- So she would pay off the police for many months.
- And there was a time where I was working with a hat
- on, meaning that I looked like a customer rather
- than an employee, and the police would be on the other sidewalk,
- near the Louvre.
- So we did on.
- The only-- I mean, it was a hard life.
- I mean, you can imagine by yourself, barely 18 years old,
- and never left home, and all the risk of the big city,
- and that household.
- But I decided that I was going to learn this language
- as thorough as I can, meaning that I try not to get together
- with my German counterpart.
- Because every time you tweak your own language again,
- the next day you come back, it's that much harder.
- There was a cousin sometimes that I was invited,
- and I would go.
- But otherwise.
- And I was, in a sense, thankful for what
- I was doing because there were many, many young people who
- got into households, were taken in au pair,
- and they worked so hard and mainly taking care of children
- and doing, really, the real hard work, or others
- landed in the streets.
- There were many that became prostitutes, and just
- out of necessity, or out of just no jobs.
- So in that respect, I thought I was rather lucky outside,
- like I said, there were incidents
- in the household that were not always very easy to take.
- How did you travel from Switzerland to France?
- Do you remember?
- Well, you take trains at that point, right.
- And then came a time, of course, that then for a while,
- I was able to see my mother once a year.
- I would still go back to Freiburg
- and see her until about-- that was '35, '36.
- In '37, it was already dangerous to go back.
- Then I met her once in Switzerland.
- And in '37, in fact, we got some money
- to go to Italy for some kind of a spa or whatever that was.
- And she stopped in Paris, so that
- was one of the highlights at that period.
- But from that time on, from '37, I couldn't-- no travel was
- advised anymore.
- And we just wouldn't see each other.
- Was your mother thinking of leaving Germany?
- Was she trying to get out?
- She was, but there was no way.
- You couldn't-- you know, we didn't have any family
- in the United States.
- You couldn't go anywhere.
- Well, I would have tried, but I had no power either.
- You see, I was just surviving.
- My brother was in Berlin.
- He still had his business until it came the crystal night,
- and that's when my brother was taken.
- My brother, of course, involved in business, hard working.
- Always told it wouldn't happen to you.
- So he never made even any effort.
- I don't know it would have helped because, like I said,
- we had no family in the United States.
- Where was he taken then?
- He was taken in Berlin.
- He was taken into a concentration camp,
- and you can imagine I don't even remember.
- It must not have been too far from Berlin.
- It one of the--
- I mean, it was a concentration camp,
- but not yet shipped out to--
- not too far.
- Can't remember anymore.
- But OK, that was then end of '38, and--
- yeah, end of '38.
- And then I got the news that he was in the concentration camp.
- I had this one fellow who used to come
- to the store, a Turkish Jew who always wanted to be waited
- by me for some reason.
- I had to wait on him.
- I had a friend, a woman friend in Marseille.
- He bought the most beautiful things.
- And one day, we got to talk about this, and let me see.
- Yeah, then he told me that there are lawyers that
- do business with this type of--
- in this area that I might be able to get a letter, what they
- used to call, from a lawyer and send it
- to the German authorities to this camp
- where my brother was in.
- And well, I didn't have much money,
- but I realized then that the little
- you can save in life very often just helps you
- for such an emergency.
- And I did have enough accumulated
- to buy one of those letters that we bought.
- This letter promised the authorities,
- If you relieve Mr. Eichtersheimer now,
- he would emigrate in such and such period--
- maybe in a month's time, in two months
- time, I can't remember anymore--
- and would leave Germany.
- This was all a money game, but it was done.
- So fortunately, I got that letter.
- I sent it to him, and they released him.
- Then after that came, of course, a big question, where to go.
- Because this letter also was given like--
- they came out little states like we talk now.
- Now we recognize like Honduras, all those little Central
- American states.
- But nobody knew of them before.
- I mean, I think I knew my geography,
- but I never heard of those little states.
- So those little States profited from all this
- from our terrible mishap.
- So I got my brother out, and then came by coincidence-- then,
- this man came back again to the store, and I said,
- now what I need, I need my brother--
- to get my brother out of Germany.
- Not talking about my mother who was still
- there, too, but my brother.
- Well, he said, maybe I can help you.
- He was an obnoxious person, and I was afraid like anything
- even to deal with him.
- But I always said it wouldn't have been my brother's life,
- I certainly wouldn't have done it.
- But God was with me.
- I had an appointment with him that evening
- to meet him next to my place then
- because the woman bought a second place.
- And that was then hotel, that was [NON-ENGLISH].
- That was the second store.
- He opened [NON-ENGLISH].
- There was a street where the American Express was
- on, and behind a grand hotel, and next to it was a hotel
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- He said, you meet me at the bar tonight at the hotel
- [NON-ENGLISH].
- Well, with a terrible anxiety, I met this man at the bar,
- and not knowing what's going to happen.
- All this having my brother, of course, in mind.
- Fortunately, he came with a young man,
- and he said, here we are.
- And I brought Gaston along.
- And that, of course, was a certain relief.
- And he looked decent more than him, at least,
- not to be by myself.
- And he said that we went to the dog races.
- Let's see, I don't get this mixed up now.
- Well, that's the way I met my husband.
- That night, we went to the dog races, and beautiful atmosphere
- and all this.
- But we ate.
- But this guy, all he had in mind was to gamble.
- So while he gambled--
- The Turk?
- The Turk.
- The ladies would come and take the bets at the table, you see.
- And we were talking.
- And I was talking, of course, with Gaston.
- And after a few hours that he was all involved and all this--
- and, of course, I must say that, of course,
- he know Gaston, since he brought him along.
- And so that take off that pressure off me,
- knowing that I would be completely dependent on him
- to get this visa to go somewhere.
- After a few hours, and my husband said--
- Gaston said, Emilio, you're not really
- interested in this young lady.
- Can I, if you don't mind, I take her home?
- He said, OK.
- So Gaston took me home, and left me at the door.
- Of course, you know, my place was
- up in the sixth, seventh floor.
- And you had to go through the concierge,
- and you had to be careful, who there.
- And then he asked me my name.
- And we do have my born name right on the--
- so for a Frenchman to remember Eichtersheimer was quite a task.
- But he said, good night.
- And we discovered, of course, that we didn't
- work far from each other.
- So I worked [NON-ENGLISH], and he worked just around the corner
- in this travel office.
- And Emilio at that time worked with this travel office
- because he did all those manipulation
- between those small states, and get those letters,
- and to really, really take advantage
- of that whole situation.
- Money was no issue.
- He just throw down while everything that--
- it was practically blood money, and he throw it around.
- Was Gaston French-born?
- Gaston was French-born.
- Gaston was born in Marseille, and was quite a bit older.
- He was 34 years old, had never left Marseille, only about
- a year before to take this job in Paris.
- The next morning, I opened the store at 9:30.
- By 10:00 a little messenger came over from Gaston already with
- a long letter and so on.
- Oh, before he left me that evening,
- he proposed to marry me.
- So that was always his story.
- Now I have to tell it because.
- And so Madame Kahn, of course, was the name of the lady
- that I worked for.
- Leah Kahn.
- And she called-- the business place was called LeKa,
- So she took Leah--
- you know, the two letters from her.
- And Mrs. Kahn, while she had morals that certainly wouldn't
- be highly commended, she thought she certainly
- instilled the morals into me.
- You know, don't go out, don't go this, that.
- But when she heard that I met Gaston,
- that he was a friend of very good friends of hers,
- she kind of felt, well, you know, she gave--
- I didn't have to ask her OK, but, I mean,
- she, too felt comfortable in that respect.
- And, she was quite surprised, and impressed, and so on.
- Well, through this relationship, of course,
- I got then the visa for my brother to go to Bolivia.
- Did you have to pay money for that?
- I had to pay money for this.
- And then the biggest thing came.
- The money had to be found to finance his trip to Bolivia.
- How did you get the money?
- Part of that money, he was in Switzerland.
- And so we used some of this little money
- that we had that also--
- that my uncle was in Switzerland.
- And I can't really-- you know that, it really escaped me.
- I certainly didn't have the money.
- So it must have come from the money
- that we had in Switzerland.
- Fortunately, there was somebody that also helped us later on.
- So Gaston asked me every day if I would marry him,
- and we became-- every day we met.
- And we met, and we spent all the hours outside
- of the working hours together.
- And that was in end of '38.
- That happened the end of '38.
- In '39 then, in April, my brother,
- we got that visa for him.
- And he got his passage, and he came to Paris.
- He met Gaston, and I traveled with him.
- And his steamer left from La Rochelle.
- That was a different port that is the Southwest of France.
- And I took him there.
- And he left for Bolivia.
- My mother, of course, still in France--
- still in Germany.
- And we made plans to get married.
- I finally, after about six months--
- well, for Passover, we went-- for Passover, Gaston
- introduced me to his family.
- His family also had never left Marseille
- until Gaston came to Paris, and then he had them come to Paris.
- Because he was, really, the one who supported his mother
- and father.
- So they had an apartment in Paris,
- but in the extreme part of-- the other part of town completely.
- But Gaston came every morning to pick me up.
- And from where I was, we walked to the opera, which
- was about 45 minutes walk.
- And, I guess, though, at the--
- for Pesach, he invited me to his family.
- And of course, the parents were delighted.
- Jewish girl, good family.
- They came up from Marseille?
- They came up from Marseilles and lived with my husband.
- My husband rent an apartment, and had his parents liquidate
- their apartment in Marseille.
- And they lived together.
- I wanted to ask you something.
- You were in Paris during Kristallnacht, is that correct?
- As I recall, one of the so-called reasons
- that Kristallnacht began was because of the murder
- of a diplomat in Paris.
- Do you remember anything about what the newspaper said,
- or what happened in Paris around that time?
- The Jewish reaction?
- You know, that I really don't remember.
- I'm sure it was--
- they had raffles at time.
- You would be taken in, it happened to me once or twice,
- that they checked on your papers when you were out in the street.
- And then get you into the paddy wagon
- or whatever you call it here, and take you to the police.
- Excuse me, what was the term you used? they had, like, roundups?
- Yeah, roundups, right.
- Yeah, roundups.
- That must have been in this particular-- this was the time
- that they started.
- But I can't remember too well this particular incident.
- Just escaped me.
- But then, of course, the result was that my brother's ordeal
- then came upon.
- Well, we had--
- I don't know.
- I generally didn't concentrated too much anymore on this.
- Like I said, I kept away mostly from my German counterparts,
- and so I was maybe less involved than others
- who would always meet.
- Now, we did meet, like I said, at one time or the other,
- and I was taken into that.
- But then you kept again separate.
- And I don't think it brought too much hardship for me.
- I mean, I know, like I said, I was once or twice
- in those raffles, what they call the raffles, when they come.
- Did they check your--
- They checked your papers, your passports,
- and you always have to have papers.
- And of course, you didn't have work papers.
- So of course, they were wondering
- how you survived in this.
- I presume that once or twice, this woman had to get me out
- of this situation.
- That was the good part of it.
- In fact, I forgot to tell you that when
- it became so difficult about working
- there that the police really--
- and she had paid off the police, she constantly was--
- she knew people, how to contact them and pay them off.
- Then came a time where she could not do it anymore.
- Then she changed the business into a society
- and took me in as a partner.
- As a partner who, of course, with no rewards or anything.
- But it was publicized.
- I used to have this--
- there used to be a publication that came out
- in the business world, and--
- Is that like a corporation?
- Yeah, a corporation.
- And she took me as a partner.
- So you see, it was a hard life.
- I mean, there was nothing easy about it,
- but it was just so much better than being in the street
- with others.
- And people used to come into our place,
- into the place and friend of hers
- and said, why are you here with all
- your knowledge and the language, and why you work for her?
- And this and that, but for me, this was the only salvation.
- Then, of course, after I met the parents and so on,
- we got married.
- When was that?
- In August 12, 1939.
- And the civil marriage.
- And then, in fact, I have the ketubah here, 19.
- And then the 13th, the next Sunday,
- we were married at the synagogue.
- And that was the synagogue [NON-ENGLISH],
- which was a Sephardic synagogue.
- The sad part, of course, that I just discovered.
- And I discovered-- I took out my mother's passport
- the other the day.
- And I realized, and she always told me,
- that she had everything prepared to come to the wedding.
- And I see that the passport was issued with a J, as you can see,
- the 17th of August.
- I mean, that was--
- yeah.
- Now, we were married the 12th of August.
- How did that go?
- Well, anyway, she tried.
- It's just that she tried everything she could.
- They told her that they would give her the passport,
- they would issue the passport, issue a visa
- to come to the wedding, and she had everything ready from top
- to toe.
- And was never given the permission.
- So, of course, the wedding was without my mother,
- with any of my relatives.
- None of my relatives would be there.
- I see on your mother's passport she has the middle name Sarah.
- Yeah.
- Well, and that was with Hitler, all the names were given Sarah.
- I with my-- I came here.
- I never had a middle name.
- And you can see it here, the ketubah,
- that Sarah was added to my name.
- And I eliminated when I became an American citizen,
- I dropped the Sarah again.
- So after I married Gaston, I became a French citizen
- through marriage.
- And the first thing we were doing
- was trying to get my mother out of Germany.
- And that was not an easy task, as you can imagine.
- The Gestapo had already come about three times to get her.
- But after that, she was--
- she had a bad heart.
- And two occasions, she was hospitalized in a Catholic--
- Freiburg was a completely Catholic population.
- And the nuns would protect her.
- And in this miracle, she was not taken.
- Everybody else had already left Freiburg.
- She was one of the few left.
- And Gaston started making all the necessary steps
- to bring her over.
- She, in turn, would go to public school.
- She wanted to start learning French because she
- thought this is going to be it.
- She's going to be coming to France,
- and nobody had thought that we ever had
- to leave France at this point.
- So she, in turn, had to do the big task.
- Meaning by the time we got all the papers then
- which was, of course, not easy.
- My husband Gaston would travel wherever I had to go.
- And I mean, how did it go?
- I mean, she was still in Germany.
- Then the war broke out.
- We married August 12.
- The war broke out end of August.
- Gaston was mobilized January 1 to report
- to his outfit in the south of France
- because that's where he always lived.
- And I stayed back, of course, in Paris.
- Went to work every day, and stayed in my--
- and the parents were-- and I was together with the parents.
- What do you remember about the war breaking out?
- How did your life change?
- Well, we had, of course, it did change a lot.
- And when they start, we had to go into the cellars in Paris.
- We had bombs.
- And then, of course, there's the [? dietary ?] situation
- came when Gaston had to leave, you see, and I became pregnant.
- It wasn't until--
- I mean, here he was.
- He was in southern part of France.
- We were there.
- I went to work, but then came a time
- where it became very difficult. And the owner left then,
- you see--
- left Paris.
- She had a property in the south of France,
- and I had the whole responsibility
- of this whole business.
- And I stayed there until two days before Hitler came in.
- Then, of course, we had the blackouts,
- and we had the every night at the cellars,
- and the sirens going, and the destruction of everything.
- Then that night, when we knew they were marching in,
- there was a little van from the business world,
- and the driver was there.
- And he just came in time to take us--
- the parents, a sister of Gaston's, two cousins.
- And by that time, like I said, Madame Kahn had left,
- and she left a bulldog behind her.
- So we had the dog in there, too, and off we went.
- Left everything behind.
- I took one suitcase where this cousin from the States
- had sent some diapers in view of being pregnant.
- And you just surprised what you take at those moments.
- And off we went on the road.
- Everything was blacked out.
- You couldn't see anything.
- And you went on the road, and you followed everybody.
- The government was leaving Paris, going to Vichy.
- And whatever you saw here in the newsreel,
- that's where we were, just behind all those cars.
- And the thing that always amazed me
- is at that point to watch what people would take.
- You saw cages with birds, you saw little animals, you saw--
- I mean, sometimes things that you said,
- why did they take that, rather than something more important?
- On that road, we had the bombs above us.
- We had to get out the car, and lie down on the ground,
- and come back.
- And we came as far as--
- I tried to remember that name this morning.
- So hard.
- I think it was called [NON-ENGLISH].
- It was about 10 kilometers outside of Vichy
- before you got to Vichy.
- Those were little villages.
- And what they did with all those refugees, they opened the store,
- they opened the haylofts, they opened whatever they had.
- And that where we would be sleeping and managing.
- I don't know how.
- I mean, you don't know how you got the food.
- We don't know--
- I know one thing, that this old father, who was then
- already like 75, had about the hardest time to adopt him,
- to be with all those people lying around and no privacy.
- So you slept in a hayloft?
- I maybe could have been possible to figure out how long we were
- there, but I cannot say.
- But one day, a savior came.
- Gaston's family, the husband, from--
- they lived in Bordeaux, he had three sons.
- So they did not take him to the front line.
- He worked in a factory, and he came what
- I would call up with his car.
- Because there was no congestion then, because nobody
- was coming that way.
- And he came and picked us up.
- What was his name?
- Tangy, he was--
- T-A-N-G-Y. What was his first name?
- Goodness, I can't remember this minute.
- You know, Tangy was the family name.
- Oh, silly.
- Oh, you can tell me later.
- Yeah, when it comes back to me.
- And that, of course, saved our life.
- How could he find you?
- How was he--
- Well, there was some way of communication
- where those refugees were stopped, you see,
- because they were all behind the lines.
- So he just took a chance.
- Because there were no communication.
- So he took a chance, and he found us in all this mess.
- And we all crawled into this car with, like I said, about eight,
- nine people.
- And he took us down there, and then we were all
- grouped in that one apartment.
- Where did he take you?
- In Bordeaux.
- To Bordeaux.
- We were in Bordeaux for a few days, managing in that apartment
- until the Vichy government then left Vichy and came to Bordeaux.
- So again, we had the bombs because they were following
- the government to Bordeaux.
- There, she was in a modern apartment house,
- And there was no cellar.
- So what we were told, we were going in the open.
- So when the siren came on, we ran out,
- and we ran out in the open, in the parks,
- and wait for our destiny.
- And survived somehow.
- It didn't take, I mean, just few short days that
- after the defeat of France, and the German would walk in
- and would come in to Bordeaux.
- Marching into Bordeaux, it didn't take but a few days
- until the whole city was systematically
- robbed of everything.
- The stores were emptied out.
- The food, the clothing, the shoe stores-- anything,
- it was just systematically done.
- When was this?
- This was in July, 1940.
- Beginning of July.
- We managed-- my sister-in-law, Marcel, and myself--
- used to go some in the morning, what
- you would call a marketplace, but all you
- could find maybe potatoes and something like that.
- Would carry them home.
- Feed this family with three growing boys, and of course,
- the rest of the cousins, and the parents,
- and everybody who was there.
- Then I came to the conclusion.
- I said, what shall I do?
- I mean, here I was pregnant eight months.
- I just could not feel--
- I was just in a stage I could not
- have this child with those German all around.
- So I finally, when they repaired the bridges that,
- of course, were destroyed, I took the first train
- that was established from Bordeaux to Marseille.
- Because my husband was still in the South of France because that
- was the Italian border that they had to protect it earlier.
- And got to Marseille.
- Did you have any trouble getting on a train?
- The train-- we didn't have any trouble to get on the train.
- The only thing, it was the first train.
- And I was so afraid, I mean, after all,
- not knowing what happened.
- So, the only thing my brother-in-law
- told the conductor, look out for that lady or whatever.
- But I mean, there was very little one could be done.
- It was just a terrible, terrible train ride.
- And every time the train stopped very sudden, I thought,
- this might be it.
- This baby might come.
- I had no way of knowing how--
- --housing, so finally, what I found
- was one little room with one little burner
- to make a little meal.
- And that's the way I lived for a few weeks.
- And then Gaston was discharged from the army.
- And he came to Marseille.
- So at least he was there when the baby was about to arrive.
- But still, in that--
- Why was he discharged?
- He was discharged in July in-- of 1940.
- I think I have the paper.
- Why was he discharged?
- Well, that was the end of the--
- Oh, I see.
- OK.
- The war was over.
- I think I had it last night.
- [FRENCH]-- the 25th of June, 1940--
- I think that was it.
- It's not exactly the discharge paper.
- But it was here.
- Then-- well, of course, it was-- then
- we had to get out of this little room.
- Because we came back from the hospital
- with that-- with the baby.
- And well, the hospital, that was another ordeal.
- But anyway, we got then in a little-- in a rooming house,
- a little room.
- And that was terrible.
- And 10 o'clock, they closed the lights.
- And I was very anxious to do--
- to bring up that child the same thing
- that I saw this nurse doing it at my cousin's home
- that I talked about before.
- And it didn't work.
- At 10 o'clock, they closed the light.
- I couldn't wake the baby.
- I could-- and then I had to get up during the night.
- It was full of bugs and everything else.
- I mean, it was a terrible situation until finally, then,
- we, with much searching-- because the whole town was
- over--
- was filled with all those refugees that came.
- Because Marseille then was still unoccupied.
- And people were trying to save their life coming down
- To that area.
- So finally, we did find an apartment on the Cours Lieutaud,
- on the third floor.
- And it was, quite decent.
- What was the baby's name?
- The baby's name was Mireille--
- M-I-R-E-I-L-L-E. In fact-- wait, no,
- Gaston just came for the birth.
- And so we got that apartment.
- And it made life a little easier--
- in fact, to a point that OK, now,
- everything is going to be all right.
- I mean, this part wasn't occupied.
- And we can survive.
- And then, of course, came--
- then he started doing all the paperwork for my mother's--
- for my mother to come to France.
- And there, we must give credit, of course.
- I just don't know how she did it.
- My mother-- and after the papers were all ready,
- my mother had to go to Wiesbaden to get an exit visa
- from the Gestapo, from what they called the Armistice
- Commission that was established in Wiesbaden.
- She went.
- Here was a woman, she knew very well, she
- could not sit on a bench.
- She could not stay in a hotel.
- She couldn't do anything.
- She confronted those tall Gestapos.
- And another miracle-- she got her exit visa.
- When it came to a point, which, of course,
- coming later, when we got to the American consul,
- and my husband showed him this-- he saw that passport,
- he would not believe it.
- He said, it must be faked or anything like this.
- But my husband spoke English well enough
- to talk to this-- to the consul in Marseille,
- and explained that it's the reality, that that's what it.
- So my mother was finally--
- she got a passage.
- He got-- she got her train ticket that, of course,
- also, she had to go through way of Switzerland.
- And she got to see her brother in Switzerland.
- She was-- she--
- well, the thing-- while we were robbed of everything in France,
- she saw it all-- every night, she
- heard, all through the night, all those big trucks coming in
- with all the food and everything.
- So when she came to Switzerland, she had a little food with her.
- Because my uncle told her, don't you leave that food here.
- Emilie has nothing to eat.
- And that was the truth.
- I mean, we just-- then it really started.
- We just didn't have anything to eat, and the black market,
- and whatever.
- I nursed the child.
- I lost 30 pounds at that point because I just--
- we had-- at that-- then it start with--
- I just saw that last night, that you actually
- had to be in-- you see, to subscribe to the-- that you
- were a Jew.
- That was in Marseille then.
- And even, I was--
- I never realized that, that we had
- to do it with that child, who was just one year old, not
- even a year old.
- And you too-- and had to make a declaration
- that she was as a Jew.
- Well, each person had it.
- OK.
- Well, these are the exit?
- No, those were just to have--
- this is when it started with--
- in Marseille to be recognized as a Jew.
- You had to register.
- OK.
- So these are like registration cards--
- Registration.
- --from Marseille--
- From Marseille.
- --with your family's names.
- And status of Jews.
- You see that this--
- and that must have been the date when you had to be done.
- It was the 25th--
- the 25th of July in 1941.
- You were telling me about your mother.
- And where did she go after Switzerland?
- After Switzerland, then by--
- she came-- she was able to come to Marseille.
- And this was, of course--
- nobody can believe it.
- When was it that she arrived?
- She arrived in 1941.
- See, the child was born.
- She was in-- it was in the--
- I don't know if it mentions in her passport.
- I guess we should find.
- Yes, December '41.
- When did she arrive?
- The 12th of July, July 12, she left Germany.
- And she arrived, of course--
- she doesn't-- right.
- Early that year, in '41, my uncle from Luxembourg
- arrived and needed also help.
- But I don't think I should go into all those details.
- But he was the one--
- we tried to save him.
- And he did come to France.
- And unfortunately, he never made it.
- I mean, it was just a terrible thing.
- But he told, then, Gaston, you have to do something.
- You have to try to leave France.
- I mean, it's time.
- Because as a Frenchman, why do I have to leave?
- I mean, it's so embedded.
- He lived there for all his life, 35 years, outside with that one
- exception to go to Paris for one year.
- Excuse me.
- Did you have any special problems
- because you were a German Jew as opposed to being French-born?
- Yeah, I had some in Bordeaux, definitely.
- And it was a sad feeling, that.
- Because at one time, I don't even
- know how the family would have reacted if something
- would have happened.
- I would hope that nobody--
- but it was-- it came very close to that, to that point.
- Gaston's family?
- Gaston's family.
- And if they did, how would I blame them?
- But it always remained in my memory
- as a sad moment in my life that one time, I overheard.
- And they said, well, they are after the German Jews here.
- What about the Vichy authorities when you were in Marseille?
- Did they treat you any differently?
- Well, you see, because like I said, up to this point,
- Vichy had nothing to do with Marseille.
- That was still the unoccupied-- see, France was divided.
- So that was-- see, we got out before the Vichy government came
- to Marseille--
- I mean, have any power to the--
- so on this advice, and on this, really, insistence of my uncle--
- and my uncle asked by Gaston, do you
- have family in the United States?
- He said, yes, I have first cousins.
- So Gaston wrote.
- And it's one of the-- of the cousins
- that's Louis Alfandri who lived here in Washington,
- really took this very seriously.
- He was a good man.
- I'm sure he had to be a good man to do all this.
- But he also worked at it very diligently there too.
- We don't know exactly his motives.
- The times were hard here.
- But maybe he thought, with--
- maybe we come with money.
- It doesn't-- I don't know what motive.
- But anyway, he was very, very dedicated.
- And he made up his mind that this should succeed.
- His wife also had a very-- had a--
- she worked for Wallace at that time.
- She was a secretary.
- And so she was-- had some influence,
- but not really that much.
- Then Louis, who really tried, and got in
- to know this one woman at the State Department.
- And he went every day to see.
- Well, first, of course, he had to provide an affidavit.
- He didn't have the means.
- So he approached his sister-in-law.
- And I just saw this the other day.
- It was actually an interesting document, the United States
- affidavit of support.
- And that, the Wolf, this Gertrude was his sister-in-law.
- And she was married to same Wolf, who had--
- at this point was quite wealthy, meaning
- he had quite a bit of real estate here.
- So that's $100,000 real estate, which, of course,
- at that time was quite a bit of money.
- And here, it says, please help my cousin
- to join me and my family soon.
- And you might be sure that we will do our utmost that they
- shall not be-- that they shall become self-supporting and make
- a good living.
- So after this affidavit was, of course--
- Excuse me, how were the Wolfs related to Louis?
- Sister-in-law.
- Rose Alfandri's sister was Gertrude Wolf,
- who married that same Wolf.
- I am sure that Louis Alfandri must have gone every day
- down to see this woman--
- I can't remember her name--
- while we were going and while were lines every day,
- every day on that consulate in Marseille.
- And that consulate every day came out
- with new regulations and new regulations.
- And I still feel that this was the downfall of everything.
- Because the people--
- I mean, my uncle, who had everything, and had money,
- and money hidden in his suitcase, money all over.
- He would have never been in charge of anybody,
- had a good affidavit, never made it.
- So by some-- another miracle, our papers came--
- let me see-- just before Pearl Harbor, before the consulate was
- closed down.
- And that was, of course, in 1941, in September.
- So you can see that--
- when was this?
- This was interesting.
- In January-- in January, we started--
- no, was it June or was it January?
- June.
- June?
- So it-- couldn't be, no, 1941.
- Can you imagine?
- I didn't even know how close it was--
- June 1941.
- And we got the paper in September.
- I mean, that's just amazing.
- What about your mother?
- Now, my mother.
- And I can just see-- and that's really remarkable.
- I still don't know where Gaston had the courage
- to put my mother's name somewhere.
- Because that affidavit is really only made for the three of us.
- So that's still-- it's not--
- I wouldn't-- I couldn't call it a puzzlement,
- but it was just a lot of guts, presumably,
- that he had to put her name in one of those papers that was
- requested afterwards to get the visa.
- Because we could never have.
- See, it had to be done under the French quota.
- Because the French quota was the only one that wasn't filled.
- The German quota-- see, I--
- by marriage, I came under the German-- under the French quota
- otherwise.
- But she was a German.
- I mean, so you see?
- OK.
- She-- you're showing me an affidavit of support
- from the Wolfs.
- From the Wolfs.
- And showing that Gaston and Emilie and--
- Mireille.
- --Mireille can come into the United States.
- That's right.
- So then, of course, came the difficult part
- of finding passage.
- Because that was then after Pearl Harbor.
- And so well, you would-- the HIAS
- was about the only thing that could help you with that.
- And again, we had--
- there were-- since Gaston was in that travel business before,
- he knew quite a few people in--
- in fact, he worked for one group,
- then, in Marseille after he came back.
- That lasted for a little while.
- And maybe they were helpful.
- Anyway, it was the HIAS who had two ships leaving yet
- after Pearl Harbor.
- And we were lucky to get onto one.
- And it was called the Guinea, SS Guinea.
- The Guinea was a vessel that usually
- would do the coastline of Portugal
- with a capacity of about 200 to 225 passengers.
- The HIAS booked 600.
- Were they mostly Jews?
- Where did the money come from?
- All Jews.
- Where did the money come from, that passage?
- It cost $500 a person.
- So luckily, in Switzerland, we had this little money
- that came from my father's insurance
- that my uncle had the wisdom of transferring to Switzerland.
- My mother had saved from my time practically of birth silver,
- silver settings.
- And when things became very difficult,
- my uncle used to have chauffeurs that would come.
- Because he lived just on the Swiss frontier
- and would come over and transport
- a little bit every time.
- So that silver was there.
- And that silver was sold.
- And that silver saved us, paid for this passage--
- $500 a passage, three times--
- three passages, $1,500.
- What we had was one little cabin.
- This was your mother?
- Was your mother with you?
- Yeah, my mother was with me.
- So it was really four of you?
- Four of us.
- With the baby, OK.
- With the baby.
- But three passages had to be paid.
- We got one little--
- one room with a narrow bed that my mother occupied--
- and my mother was quite a heavy lady--
- with that little baby next to her-- for us, nothing.
- I have to say before how we got, in fact, to the ship.
- But on the ship, my husband was sick from the first day.
- We would wander around with the night, go up to the deck.
- At 2 o'clock, they come to-- they washed the deck.
- Then you go somewhere else again.
- And of course, then came the shortage of food.
- There came the shortage of water.
- There came illnesses.
- There came death.
- And we were three weeks on that boat.
- Before we got to the boat, we left Marseille by boat to Oran--
- Where is that?
- --there to-- Oran in North Africa.
- There to-- well, we slept.
- But that was just a night from there to--
- two nights to get to Oran.
- In Oran, they put us into trains that
- were locked, what do you call [FRENCH],
- that you couldn't escape.
- I mean, the cars were.
- And from there, we were transported to Casablanca.
- We had one-- two days in Casablanca, luckily.
- This custom--
- What did you eat on the train?
- Did you have any provisions?
- Very, very little.
- You could sometimes, when the car stopped,
- when there was some-- sometimes on the platform,
- you could buy a hard-boiled egg or something like this.
- But in Casablanca, fortunate enough,
- there were-- oh, it was Isidore Tangy, by the way.
- It worked on me.
- My brother-in-law's name was Isidore.
- OK.
- So Isidore Tangy had family in Casablanca,
- meaning a sister and a brother.
- And they took us on, which, of course, was a big help.
- So we had one night of rest, and clean-up, and so on
- until we boarded this terrible ship.
- And what can I say?
- The ship-- like I said, the food ran out.
- All the-- originally, all they brought on this ship
- was rice and fish.
- And it was just that at the end, that wasn't even left.
- Then we stopped-- the ship stopped in Bermuda.
- In Bermuda, the authority came on, the English,
- and checked us out.
- Then we had another stop in Cuba.
- In Cuba, the Cuban came on.
- And they tried to sell you an orange for $1,
- at that time, money we didn't have because you
- couldn't take out it.
- Well, you could.
- I mean, there wasn't much money that we could take out.
- Excuse me.
- Did your mother have to pay an exit tax from Germany?
- Well, whatever-- she had to leave everything.
- And you could only take out 10 mark at that point, you see.
- So everything had to be paid in advance.
- And everything was left.
- Did any of you know English?
- She didn't know English.
- My husband knew English very well
- because he came to this country when
- he was 18 years old to perfect himself in English.
- His sister was here, a secretary with the consulate,
- with the French consul in New York.
- So his-- and the only reason he went,
- of course-- he had to promise his father that he would go
- back to do his military service.
- Otherwise, his father would never have allowed.
- So he was here from 18 until-- from 18
- until he was 20 years old.
- And then he returned to do his military service.
- So he spoke English fluently.
- My English?
- Of course, I had five years in the Hochschule.
- So it just took time to get yourself acquainted with it
- again.
- So that wasn't-- that part wasn't quite so terrible.
- I mean, it was still a hardship.
- But I mean, it wasn't as much that anybody else.
- Where did the boat land?
- The boat land in New York.
- Did you go through Ellis?
- January 15.
- Did you go through Ellis Island?
- No, not anymore at this point.
- The baby was, of course, almost starved.
- It was-- it took a long time to get her back to.
- But we landed in New York January 15
- after this ordeal of four weeks on the boat
- and met the cousins who were--
- there was-- all were very kind then.
- And we stayed in New York, then, two weeks.
- My husband came immediately to Washington.
- And Louis Alfandri tried to get him a job, tried
- to get us housing first.
- The housing was very difficult to come by when
- we came-- when we arrived here.
- So first, we were in a little-- in a terrible place,
- furnished room with rats and everything else.
- But luckily, they-- this Mr. Wolf
- was in the building business.
- They had to stop it, of course.
- But they had just finished two apartments.
- And so we were able to get one of these.
- What was-- what were your first impressions of the United States
- when you came over?
- Well, overwhelmed and overly happy and overly just thankful
- for every--
- for everything-- thankful for everything,
- not afraid of work, not afraid of anything, just to be here
- and to be alive and to be free.
- And we knew that we would succeed if we had our health.
- And it worked that well.
- It was-- it was hard life.
- And we knew-- we knew it would be a hard life.
- But we were just not afraid of hard work.
- And there-- it had its consequences.
- I mean, after about six months, I was here.
- I didn't-- it didn't work too well.
- But afterwards, we--
- How did you feel when the United States entered the war?
- Well, that, of course, was a terrible--
- we had-- we used to have the radio on during 2
- o'clock in the morning and listen all hidden.
- And it was a little hard for me.
- It still is because our hope, when
- we listened to that radio at 2 o'clock in the morning
- was Roosevelt. We just felt that he had to do it.
- And he had-- well, it's--
- I mean, like I said, with the English
- that we understood and all that, that was our hope.
- So it was to my great dismay at times that--
- when I hear that people say, Roosevelt was fault--
- as fault-- at fault at this and that,
- and that the Jews didn't have a chance.
- I-- for us, at that point, he was our hope.
- I mean, nobody can erase this particular idea.
- And-- because what could we?
- It was a terrible thing.
- And then, of course, the boat, it
- was all blacked out during that whole time.
- But like you say, the months when America went
- into the war, that was despair.
- We didn't really-- first, we never
- thought we were going to make it.
- We had the visa.
- But how are we going to get out?
- Now, we had the visa.
- And now, how we go, go, get out?
- I mean, the consul-- and nothing was there
- to relate to the States anymore.
- So I guess, the HIAS really did the job
- at that particular point.
- The authorities that were on the boat with us,
- they couldn't help us very much.
- And sometimes, we thought they had the good food.
- And we nothing to eat.
- But that was just part of the--
- of another stage in this.
- It is the-- it-- really, it was--
- you never thought you would make it.
- I mean, there's just--
- you hang on to a thread.
- I mean, people tried anything on that boat.
- The women went in.
- They slept with the cook.
- They slept with this one to get a piece of bread, to get this.
- I went in, I said, with the child,
- just a potato, just something to hold them up.
- And nothing-- you just--
- you just were hopeless.
- You just were waiting.
- My husband was-- they came and looked at him every morning.
- He was lying on a bench.
- They thought, that's it, you see.
- And some did perish.
- I mean, we had some that were.
- So it's-- for a long time, you tried to erase all that.
- Of course, you wanted to survive.
- And you wanted to go on.
- And I would remark one thing.
- And I really felt that through this immigration.
- Like for instance, my mother, who went to sea, who went,
- was not afraid to go and see this Gestapo.
- What gives you that strength at those moments?
- One doesn't really know.
- Somebody else would have said, OK, I perish.
- That's it.
- No.
- And arriving here too, I feel that the women
- were much stronger and much more forceful to make it.
- You had the academic men, the doctors,
- the lawyers who came here, couldn't do a thing.
- It was the woman who really went out and did their--
- the work.
- I mean, did-- the survival came right from--
- I think, from the woman's part rather than.
- You came into Washington.
- Yeah.
- Then we came into Washington in February 1942.
- In fact, it was a coincidence because this Wolf's third son
- was born in-- just in this period of time.
- And we came in '42.
- My husband got a job at the Giant, putting up groceries.
- I started with the Giant, cutting up chickens
- two weekends.
- And then I start working with the--
- then Luca went around with me and said, well, maybe we
- find something else.
- And then I start with a cleaning store.
- The name was Kent.
- They used to have a chain of stores here.
- I think they had about 30 stores.
- Dry cleaners?
- Dry cleaners.
- And there, of course, after about six months,
- I just about broke down.
- Because it was hard work, eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours.
- There was no limit, taking the names of people,
- ask them to spell the names.
- And it was mostly in Black areas.
- So with my limited English, you can imagine what happened.
- But made it through.
- And then it happened that the sad destiny of a family
- became something that made us help to survive.
- It was a very, very sad incident.
- While I was working at Kent, at this dry cleaning store,
- I met a German doctor, by the way.
- And we talked.
- And he was selling--
- well, I met him, right, because he was
- collecting money for insurance.
- They would collect for one week.
- People would pay a weekly--
- a weekly-- what do you call it-- toward their policy, the--
- Premium.
- --premium.
- And he had-- we had--
- he must have heard me talk.
- And we had to talk in German.
- And he said, well, we should meet.
- And so one evening, he came with his wife.
- Was he Jewish?
- He was Jewish, Jewish doctor from Berlin.
- And he was trying to sell policies.
- So with the little money I made, how much did I make?
- I took out a policy, $500, and the daughter would--
- Mireille would be 15 years old for her education.
- And so we got-- became friends.
- And they came to visit.
- And even this Mrs. Wolf by then had already
- learned a little more the ropes.
- And she said, don't tell anybody what you know because then they
- take advantage.
- Give you some advice.
- Well, the same year, that saddest thing
- happened to those people.
- Came-- the holidays came.
- And the mother came to visit this Mrs. Wolf and the husband.
- And they had this little business in the Northeast.
- That's the way she started.
- That's the way I'm saying.
- I mean, he could hardly do anything.
- But she got this little store from this Jewish man.
- And he-- she took in dry cleaning.
- And in the back-- they lived in the back.
- And the man downstairs in the basement, he arranged a shower
- and so they could live behind that store.
- This is?
- This is Mrs. Wolf.
- Mrs. Wolf?
- Right.
- The holidays came.
- The Mrs. Wolf's mother came to visit from New Jersey, where
- she had another daughter.
- And in turn, they visited that evening some friends.
- They come home, they approach the door
- of the business of that little place where they lived.
- The husband had left already.
- Somebody brought him there.
- And oh, he went back by bus.
- I don't know.
- A car came, missed the curb and killed both of those ladies.
- Then this Mr. Wolf came about a week or so afterwards.
- So he didn't know what to do for maybe a month after.
- And he was at the door and approached--
- --telling me that Mrs. Wolf and her mother died.
- Died.
- And Mr. Wolf came and asked me if I possibly
- could take over the store.
- There were some clothing left that people--
- that the customers had left and that he
- was unable to pay the rent.
- And if I could possibly pay the rent and then in turn
- take over the store and just reimburse him
- for the merchandise that was there.
- Well, like I said before, you are raised,
- I guess, with this in mind, that you always
- keep one penny for the next day or whatever.
- I had already saved with this little income $60
- to pay the first month of rent.
- And so it began our life in the business world.
- Gaston was still working for--
- I had then-- because the hours that Gaston had with Giant
- were--
- was a real hardship.
- Because the stores were in Arlington.
- It took him two hours to come home.
- He'd come home at 11 o'clock at night.
- So I convinced one person at Kent
- to take him in in this cleaning business,
- making inventories in the different stores.
- And they accepted that.
- And so Gaston was doing that for the company.
- Where were you living at this time?
- Southeast, Massachusetts Avenue Southeast.
- And while I was trying to build up,
- whatever we call build up this place, he was still working.
- And then after a while, when we thought we
- could survive with one in, with just the little store, we--
- he came in with me.
- And so that's the way we lived.
- We made a living in the store.
- We brought it up to a certain level.
- And when we got here, we got--
- I made it a point to be--
- get involved in the--
- my Jewish heritage again.
- And I know that the first holidays, I took a ticket for $3
- and went to the Southeast Congregation.
- And they had a--
- well, two or three services going in one of different--
- at different halls.
- And so it started out to be quite a good life.
- My mother was with us.
- My mother could keep house and in the most economical way.
- She could take care of Mireille, whom we later
- put in a little nursery school because it was easier.
- And my mother, resourceful like always,
- start doing repair work for the business
- and earned her own little money that, in later time,
- we encouraged her to spend by visiting her families,
- that there was one sister.
- One sister was left in Germany.
- She had married a non-Jew in an earlier time, of course,
- like before.
- And while there too, had a hard trip during that time.
- But anyway, she was left.
- And she was visiting-- visiting her brother in Switzerland
- and then eventually visiting Shlomo in Israel.
- And that was a highlight, really,
- when she was able to do that.
- And so--
- Did you have any special problems
- adjusting to this country?
- I don't think so.
- Not really.
- Did you associate mostly with refugees?
- Well, our household, of course, was so much different
- from others.
- Because Gaston only spoke French.
- My mother only spoke German.
- And--
- But he spoke English, Gaston.
- Gaston spoke English, yeah, perfect English--
- French and English, of course.
- But Mother spoke German.
- And he didn't speak a word of German.
- So that was, of course-- well, Mother, of course, made--
- her goal was a big effort to learn the language.
- And of course, she had a little--
- it was a little easier for her because the time,
- the child was growing up.
- What we really didn't come to was Gaston's parents.
- I think we ought to add this to it.
- Because they did really-- the father perished.
- Should we get this into the?
- Yes.
- Yeah, right.
- Because when we left in--
- when we left in December, in--
- that February, in February '42, it became very bad.
- This is when they came into Marseille, when
- Marseille became also occupied.
- And unfortunately, they were with their family in--
- well, we don't know.
- It would have happened in Bordeaux too.
- Because the brother Isidore was taken.
- And he perished.
- That's my brother-in-law in Bordeaux.
- In fact, then, they moved to Toulouse.
- And he perished.
- The parents were in Toulouse.
- But then my father-in-law said, oh, nothing's
- going to happen to me.
- I'm 77 years old.
- And they won't bother me.
- They came back to Marseille.
- And well, I'll write again some of the correspondence they did.
- Never thought anything would happen.
- They were taken.
- Was 77 years old, she was 75.
- There, there was a camp, where they got everybody together,
- was called Les Milles in-- by the--
- near Marseille.
- And the mother, for some--
- who knows what the reasons were?
- She-- they let her go out, let her come back to her domicile.
- And the father, Moise Lellouche and Claire--
- Claire Lellouche is the mother's name
- was then-- the father was taken and perished.
- And I just saw yesterday this--
- Did the mother die?
- And the mother died in her own bed though.
- And luckily, she died in 1948.
- And Gaston was able-- was the first plane that
- actually-- the first that he could take after the war.
- And he went and saw her just before she died.
- And where did his father die?
- And his father died-- and it's just here--
- is the-- this was done--
- I think Elie had done that later on.
- Here, this is when it was certified that he died
- [FRENCH]--
- the 28-- the 28th of March 1943 at Lublin, Majdanek.
- You never heard much of this, did we-- did you?
- Yes.
- In Poland.
- And he was born [GERMAN]--
- '60-- '67.
- So he was 87--
- 70.
- What is this document?
- It's from the French government?
- This document was made afterwards, presumably
- to reconstitute his destiny, what that--
- Gaston's brother had that made.
- This is made by the--
- by Marseille.
- It's called an X-ray at the registers of the civil act.
- That is to certify, you see.
- Because after all, we didn't know.
- Right?
- OK.
- This is a judgment that was done by the tribunal, by the--
- by the Civil Tribunal de Marseille.
- The first-- it was done the 1st-- the 1st of February, 1956.
- [FRENCH]-- this is the tribunal declares the death--
- the death of Moise Lellouche at that-- at the--
- yeah.
- What other family members perished?
- And then Isidore Tangy--
- Isidore Tangy was taken--
- this family, Tangy, who was--
- lived then in Toulouse with their three sons.
- And they all went into the--
- they all helped the underground.
- And so did Isidore.
- And Isidore was just on the way to contact
- a woman who had-- who had just heard will be taken
- and got himself into the same situation.
- He was a tall man, 6'4", who knows what,
- 6'4", broad and strong.
- And he perished in one of those-- in the death march.
- His wife, Marcelle, oh, who we lost about eight years ago--
- eight years ago now, while she was still in France,
- went with a group of women and had the courage to--
- and went to the place where she was told that he succumbed,
- that he ended his life.
- He was-- they said, he was down to 70 pounds and was just then.
- So in fact, this family survived, so to say.
- They did.
- Because she survived with her three sons.
- The two sons still live.
- They were both in the underground and came back.
- He was very sick, very sick.
- But he recovered.
- And Jean fought with the French.
- And he came back.
- And the youngest, Jacques, who resides here now
- in the United States, also escaped by a miracle.
- He was taken by some nuns.
- The mother let him go.
- And they were in front of this monastery to destroy it,
- when, by some way, some thoughts, the men said, stop it.
- And they were able to survive the Germans.
- And so he came here.
- I mean, he's had a hard life.
- He was-- his life was--
- he was 14 years old then.
- And we made the papers.
- And he came here with his mother, then, in 1947.
- What about Gaston's sister?
- And Gaston's sister came here with us.
- I mean, she's the one who we made the papers and the--
- well, there was another sister who also came here.
- The other sister emigrated about the same time we did.
- In fact, she came a little earlier.
- She had a better passage.
- She came-- she came before us.
- What about your grandfathers?
- They were-- they died a normal death.
- One of them died in 1928.
- And then the other one, see, they were already old.
- One died 80 years old.
- The other one-- the other one became 91.
- So it was--
- How did you feel when the war ended?
- Do you remember?
- The war in France, you mean?
- No, the war in Europe, when the Allies won.
- Well, I only know about the time the French finished the war.
- That's why we still-- we were still in--
- I was in the street in that place near Vichy
- when it came over the radio that the French had lost the war,
- you see.
- Of course, then came the time, like I
- said, going to Bordeaux with this--
- and then the German came in, occupied.
- Then we came to France unoccupied.
- When we left France, of course, it was German occupation,
- you see.
- No, I actually meant in the United States,
- when you heard that Germany was defeated.
- Oh, well, of course, that was--
- ah, there is moment for the--
- you just felt that justice was done.
- You couldn't think of anything else.
- And it took me a long time.
- I mean, I never-- really never had a desire
- to go back to Germany.
- And not even-- for a long time, I
- couldn't even think of associate with Germany.
- But then again, you have to have a certain compassion to people.
- I mean, they were not--
- after all, life goes on.
- And so the first person I met was--
- not first-- really, yeah, I guess
- the first Christian person I associated with was in 1963,
- '64.
- We moved into a high rise in southeast-- into Maryland, then.
- It was southeastern part, where Maryland and all this
- joined, southeast area.
- In Prince George's County?
- Yeah, but just on the border line there.
- And then in 1964, this is when we took vacation.
- And we had a car.
- And we visited my family in Lorraine.
- And then when Paul Bloom said, now, it
- would be time for you to go and see anyway the cemetery
- and see how--
- you ought to go.
- So we drove.
- And that-- I'll give you this incident.
- It was quite interesting.
- So we drove.
- And was easy to find.
- Our routes were marked beautifully.
- We got into this little town that I was born, right?
- It was high noon.
- And in fact, it was just-- it happened
- to be, it was August 17, the day my father died
- after the regular calendar.
- We stopped the car--
- it was a French car, it was a Peugeot-- in front of my home
- I was born.
- And I just get out of the car.
- And I showed Gaston this big house.
- Across the street, a woman who ran out of the house, dear
- Emmy and recognized me after all those years.
- Here was this Christian family, of course.
- They lived just across, had a daughter my age, Erika.
- But here was this thing about my grandfather.
- I shouldn't be with Erika.
- But as a child, this is--
- you do anyway.
- And they were honest people who--
- and she used to come and help my mother out when a company came,
- everything like this.
- I mean, it's the most amazing--
- so she said, you must come for coffee.
- So I said, well, first we go to the cemetery.
- She explained to us the cemetery.
- We went to the cemetery.
- Cemetery?
- Amazing, like an oasis between lovely little homes
- around, kept in order.
- The monuments, they're not damaged.
- Three generations of the Eichtersheimer family
- buried there.
- We were not there--
- was about enough maybe to say a prayer.
- A man comes running in.
- He was the one who had purchased the house
- from the last Jewish family who owned it.
- Because when we moved, we sold the house to this Jewish family.
- Because the Jews had to leave.
- So this family came in.
- This family-- this man, while I wouldn't remember him maybe
- as such, but I remember the family, the name was Graff,
- which I almost--
- I don't remember.
- They had sons my brother's age.
- And they were very good friends.
- And those people were definitely not pro-Hitler.
- Because those are the ones that my brother
- used to be in a youth group together.
- But what, what else?
- Anyway, they bought-- they got the house--
- not bought because it was always left.
- Now, we have--
- OK, now, we have the invitation to come to the house, which,
- of course, pleased me in a sense,
- because I would see exactly the interior of the house, which,
- by the way, was spotless.
- Of course, the house had nothing but the best material in it.
- But it was kept just.
- And we had a glass of wine in the backyard,
- which of course, was lots and lots
- of yardage, where we had before a vegetable garden, and berries,
- and all the trees that you can imagine or the fruit trees.
- In the backyard, they built another house for the brother.
- And while we were going through the stables,
- instead of the horses--
- because we had horses when I grew up.
- Those were the horses that were used then
- to transport the building material.
- Were two Mercedes Benz-- things we're doing well for the people.
- All right.
- We left that.
- Then we went across to see the Hofbauer.
- That was their name.
- He was the old man.
- And here was a woman.
- She was going to make coffee.
- So Gaston takes the thing and grinds the coffee
- with the old-fashioned grinder.
- And she makes coffee.
- The old man tries to talk.
- We could hardly understand, but he
- wants to come through, telling us what happened,
- and why does the Graffs have the house,
- and how did it happen with the Jews.
- This was Erika's parents?
- Erika's parent-- Erika's parents.
- The first thing she told us, that Erika was dead,
- that she had two grandchildren.
- The youngest was a boy.
- When he was 16 years old, that was the time
- when Hitler took all those youngsters
- and threw them to the Russian frontier.
- That was that last--
- and that where he perished.
- There, I felt, as a human being, how can not one also feel and--
- the sufferings of this grandmother?
- Right?
- I mean, after all, we grew up together with that Erika.
- She-- why should he-- why should she have that destiny?
- I'm sure she didn't ask for it.
- She didn't look for it.
- And after the coffee, in a lighter note,
- she brings out a cake, specialty of my mother's, the Linzer torte
- that my mother used to make all her life,
- that everybody know about it.
- So it's an amazing thing.
- My brother, who never went back--
- who had, by the way, come--
- in 1946, we made him the papers to come here.
- And he established himself here.
- He came from Bolivia and came here.
- And in 1968, when we had the riots here,
- he lost his business.
- And he decided, then, that he want to go back.
- He wanted to take a trip.
- I mean, he worked very hard when he came to this country.
- And finally, he took a little time off.
- And they went back to Ittlingen. And they went back
- to Mrs. Hofbauer.
- And what did she serve him?
- She served him the challah that my mother used
- to make every Friday night.
- So it's an amazing--
- it's amazing story.
- Was that your only trip back to Germany?
- That's the only time I went back to Germany.
- We went back to France, of course,
- because Gaston-- it took him years and years
- to get the feel that this is going to be it, you see.
- And it took years-- it took maybe two or three trips
- until he realized the past is not what the reality is.
- And that he-- but his love-- when
- you are-- when you have lived in a country for 34
- years-- and a good life, because the French had a good life.
- It was hard for him too.
- Could you tell me a little bit more about your family life
- here, about your daughter?
- Did you--
- Well, then the daughter--
- Mireille grew up-- we had-- in the southeast area.
- Then the school was a little too crowded.
- So we put her in a private school.
- She was at a congressional school in Arlington.
- They came to pick her up.
- And she had six-- five years then.
- And then we took her out in order
- to get to know other friends.
- And she finished her school.
- She was graduating in Anacostia High School in 1958.
- And then 1958, we took her to Europe, in fact.
- We closed the store for 10-- for 10 weeks,
- something that one couldn't do anymore--
- and really enjoyed.
- And her father thought that would
- be the time for her to know how and her country
- where she was born.
- And of course, her country is really here.
- But after all, she was born there.
- And she applied to different-- she had gotten some scholarships
- here.
- She was a very fine student and a very fine pianist--
- nothing but pleasure to her grandmother and her parents.
- She applied to the University of Pennsylvania.
- And finally, we decided-- we said, well,
- we felt that it would be a big expense.
- But we would.
- So she did.
- And we paid for one year.
- And the second year, she was already
- able to get a scholarship.
- She was the editor of the newspaper there.
- And so she graduated in '62.
- And as a-- and her major was Russian, which, of course,
- we had no Russian in our family.
- But she understood that there was a demand for it.
- And she-- her minor was French.
- And she had worked two summers at the Library of Congress
- in that division.
- And they told her that she had a job ready for her if she--
- when she comes out of the--
- after graduation.
- So May 23, 1962, she graduated and started
- working with the Library of Congress immediately.
- And well, she had dated, of course, during her university
- years, she was--
- I think it was in a month before she met Bob
- at the Library of Congress.
- And they had things in common.
- Bob had been stationed in Germany for three years
- during his stay in the Air Force.
- Was he Jewish?
- No.
- And they got to know each other.
- And Mireille fell in love.
- And this it-- it was love.
- Was a little difficult at time.
- It was-- Bob-- she brought Bob home.
- Then in-- for 4th of July, we had a cookout.
- And she brought Bob.
- And my mother enjoyed speaking with him because he's-- had
- learned some German over there.
- She was, of course, sad that Mireille didn't embrace
- young man in her own religion.
- But love was much stronger than the reasons.
- And they continue their friendship.
- And Mother died.
- She didn't see-- to see Mireille getting married.
- When did she die?
- Mother died January 23, 1963.
- And Mireille got married, then, in March 21--
- was it 20 or 21?
- All I know is one is her birthday
- and one is the anniversary.
- I think it's 21, 1963.
- So Mother had nothing but pleasure and happiness.
- And she really was a very-- like I
- said, in everything she undertook, Mireille
- was successful and gave much, much, much pleasure.
- Now, the marriage was the thing that saddened,
- of course, my mother and myself.
- But after all, it was her life and her happiness
- had to be first.
- Has she remained a Jew?
- No.
- He wouldn't convert.
- And Mireille would never--
- she never felt that it was the right thing to--
- it had to come from the person.
- And they stayed here for a while.
- Then they-- they both were linguists.
- Bob also was a specialist in Russian.
- So they went to France and lived for a few years in France.
- And then they came back and brought--
- they came back in '70--
- in '69.
- Simone was born then, the first grandchild
- was born in France, August 10, 1969.
- And then they came back with Simone.
- And we had a few-- two years here with them.
- And then they decided for another--
- then they decided to go to Sweden.
- And in Sweden in 1972, Maya was born, the second grandchild.
- And they stayed there for 12 years.
- And they came back two years ago.
- And after they were here a few months, about six months--
- Mireille did-- I mean, she had started to get, I mean,
- with the Jewish--
- mingle, really, the Jewish congregation in Stockholm.
- And at home, they kept the holidays.
- And they also kept the Easter and Christmas.
- So the children were introduced in both religion.
- And when they came here, in-- after about four or five months,
- Maya uttered her desire to do her bat mitzvah.
- That must have been a little longer, maybe when
- they were here one year, since she started last summer.
- And February 9 this year, Maya had her bat mitzvah at Beth El.
- And she did a wonderful job, beautiful voice.
- And she did very, very well, and to that great pleasure
- of this grandmother.
- Was just the most wonderful thing that happened in my life,
- to see her taking that step.
- And so we're grateful.
- Have you talked about your experiences to your daughter?
- Yes.
- And Mireille now, we've got very much involved in the work
- at Beth El.
- In fact, she is doing their yearbook there.
- And she works very closely with the rabbi.
- Is she a member there?
- Hmm?
- Is she a member of Beth El?
- Yeah, yeah.
- She's a member at Beth El.
- And--
- Have you discussed your experiences
- with your grandchildren?
- Do they know about your history?
- They know partly, but not in details.
- But I think off and on they heard of our experience.
- And of course, Mireille also went back with them to France
- and visit the cousins and heard then the--
- they heard about their grandparents--
- I mean, their great-grandparents destiny [INAUDIBLE].
- Does her family still observe Christian holidays also?
- I think they still observe Christmas.
- I mean, Bob was never really religious.
- I mean, he's not affiliated with anything.
- It's just out of no deep religious conviction,
- I would think.
- He lost his mother very young, and at a very young age,
- and was raised then by a cousin.
- And the remarkable thing that happened,
- that after Bob married Mireille, his younger brother, who
- is six years difference, met a Jewish girl in New York,
- and he married a Jewish girl.
- But there, it was a different--
- I understand they were more forceful or whatever,
- that he did convert to Judaism.
- What about your career and your involvement
- in Jewish organizations?
- Yeah, well, I can say that it didn't
- take me long to get involved in our Jewish life.
- In fact, we were one of the founders of the, first,
- of the synagogue that was founded in Southeast
- Washington, B'nai Jacob.
- And we were the founders.
- We went.
- We stayed with them all the way through
- with merging with a group that was called the C Street.
- That was a group in C Street.
- And then there was a group--
- wait a minute.
- I don't know which one we joined first.
- But at the end, the three of them come together.
- And then there was Highland.
- And we all three joined at the end,
- and it became Shaare Tikvah out in Maryland.
- Are you still a member there?
- No, I left the membership when we came here.
- But there I was very active.
- I was president of Sisterhood for two years.
- I also was one of the founder of the ORT group
- out in Southeast Washington that we founded in 1944 or '45.
- '44, I think.
- 1944.
- I knew already of ORT from Paris,
- and was always my favorite.
- I mean, I knew it from Paris what they had done.
- And so when I heard about it here, and some of the friends,
- you know, tried to form a group, I was right there with them.
- And we formed that group in '44, and I've
- been a member ever since.
- Like I said, Sisterhood, I was president two years
- at that time, B'nai Jacob.
- And when we moved here, which was in 1975.
- So that shows you that we were about the one who
- stayed out the longest.
- All our friends and everybody else
- had already joined the exodus that started years ago.
- And when we came here, a while, it
- would have been actually to my advantage for once
- to be close to a synagogue, because when Israel was just
- about getting finished, something, like, very
- often in life, I called up immediately, of course,
- and I got someone on the phone that just didn't react.
- No seeds, no this, that.
- And then I met some-- a friend that I
- had from way back from southeast, the Goulds.
- And Esther said that they had joined Beth Tikvah in Rockville.
- So we discussed joining them.
- Of course, now myself, I've been a member since 1975 or 1976
- at Beth Tikvah.
- Do you think your wartime experiences influenced
- your feelings as a Jew?
- I would think so.
- But in the bottom of my heart, I think I was--
- my Jewish-- what is it-- ness, or being a Jew,
- was always very, very strong.
- I mean, like I said, it goes back to this [?
- Lera ?] Hertz.
- When I was five years old, I used
- to be proud to sit on my grandfather's knee
- and say the bench and all the Shema or whatever this was.
- I guess it just is in you.
- And when I had those hard years in Paris,
- that really there was no time.
- And this woman who was actually was Jewish,
- but had no understanding, I used to run at Yom Kippur night--
- I mean, Erev-- to try to get into a synagogue.
- I can still see myself rushing out of that store
- and running to and just squeezing
- in a little place where they're all, like here, filled
- at Yom Kippur time.
- And the next day I just would go and fast
- and be all by myself in the street at night,
- coming out from the shul.
- But I didn't--
- I always felt a very deep feeling at religious feeling,
- more than my husband, who's actually grandfather
- was a rabbi, if you wish.
- But I gave-- we had to give up things when we arrived.
- For instance, the kashrut laws, maybe, it was really a hardship.
- And maybe that feeling, maybe you
- can say I wasn't strong enough maybe.
- I could have done it if I had, really.
- But this kind of--
- But I don't think it's so terribly important, if you just
- have--
- everything is important.
- But it's the deep feeling of my religion has always been.
- I mean, it's just.
- And now, even things that I didn't have here anymore,
- like I guess I wouldn't do the bench or anything like that.
- If I would go, if I was, when I was president of Sisterhood,
- and would go to conventions or anything, or anything, anything
- that comes up, and it just overwhelms me.
- And I just-- and the knowledge of those prayers and everything,
- they never, never failed.
- They just stay.
- They just stay with you.
- Like I said, when I was seven, eight, nine
- years of hardship in France that I couldn't practice anything.
- It comes back just as strongly when you are able to--
- if you want to expose yourself to it again.
- So I'm very active now, of course, in ORT.
- And I've been president--
- What is your position?
- I'm in a chapter of--
- I am a member of the Parkside chapter the last nine years,
- and I've been president for two years.
- I just finished my presidency now in June,
- and I will serve on the regional executive board from now
- on, and still be, of course, having
- a portfolio for my chapter.
- Is your husband still working?
- My husband is deceased.
- My husband died.
- When did he die?
- In July 1981.
- 17th of July.
- It was the 17th again.
- After a long illness.
- And in fact, after we gave up the store in 1960,
- he wanted to close the store because it became very
- difficult. There became robberies
- and hold ups and things like this.
- So he gave up the store.
- And I started my second career.
- I started with Garfinckel's in 1963,
- and worked downtown 13 years.
- And when I came, when we moved to Rockville,
- I worked for five years at the Montgomery Mall.
- And only in 1980, after his illness
- had been diagnosed as cancer, leukemia,
- he begged me not to retire.
- And so I did, and been retired ever since.
- And devoted most of my time to my charity work.
- I work with the Jewish Community Center.
- I'm a docent at the Goldman Art Gallery at the Jewish Community
- Center.
- And like I said, I've given a lot of work to--
- a lot of my time to ORT.
- Have you been to Israel.
- Yes, we went to Israel in 1964.
- This was our 25th wedding anniversary,
- and that was an extended trip.
- I haven't been back since, because--
- not because.
- I mean, there's no other reason.
- But our travel afterwards, as you can see then,
- Mireille went to Sweden.
- And she stayed 12 years.
- So our aim was back to Sweden to see the grandchildren and so on.
- So some of our other, maybe, dreams that we had about travel
- had to be postponed.
- Did you or your mother ever receive war reparations
- from Germany?
- Mother received very little, because we really hadn't done--
- I don't know.
- I think either it was because this city really didn't have--
- not as much publication on it, or it just wasn't--
- so finally, it was my uncle in Israel
- that kind of worked on it.
- And so, yeah.
- Are you a member of the survivors group
- here in Washington?
- No, I'm not.
- Did you attend the Washington Conference two years ago?
- No.
- Do you read Holocaust literature.
- Yes, I do, because I get them now.
- And of course, since I'm president, mainly,
- because I get all the literature from the Jewish Community
- Council.
- I was active with the Jewish Community
- Council and I was president of Sisterhood,
- or always active in--
- I mean, outside of being president at that time,
- of B'nai Jacob, I always was active on the board,
- and for quite a few years delegate to the Jewish Community
- Council.
- So I get all the literature.
- Yeah.
- And we all has--
- it's a big issue with all the organization now, right?
- I mean, we bring it up at the meetings,
- and had speakers, and--
- How do you feel about Germany today?
- Well, I don't know.
- With what we had now, the experience, we just, our--
- what this president did.
- And then again, when I listen to the Israel president--
- The president's visit to Bitburg.
- Yeah, yeah.
- That was very disturbing.
- Very much so.
- Do your war experiences--
- I was really very hurt about this.
- Yeah.
- I just couldn't, couldn't agree at all.
- I mean, it's just--
- and it just happened.
- That incident was still discussed
- when I was just at a convention, a ORT
- convention in Philadelphia.
- And we had, this topic was still very up there.
- And we had workshops on it, and a forum,
- in fact, a forum with a--
- a forum, in fact, with a reformed rabbi
- and a survivor from the Japanese that were incarcerated.
- And this rabbi-- and I thought--
- I think we brought it up, some people.
- But this rabbi was very strong--
- I don't know how about your feelings are--
- that one should go to Russia and have the feel how bad,
- how things are, and how--
- I don't know.
- I really don't know how we can get across
- to people with this aim.
- And we said, well, should this be sponsored?
- And he said, no.
- I mean, people should make a special effort,
- and do it on their own.
- And he feels that he has done it.
- And he got a much different feel than to all the news literature
- that we get, and the newsletters, and so on.
- So how do you feel about this?
- I mean, is this--
- have you had that ever come up in your experience, that
- like him, that he feels that we should make an effort here
- to go and visit Russia?
- Well, I can talk about it later.
- Oh.
- How does your war experiences still
- affect you-- or does it still affect you?
- The what?
- Your memories of the war years.
- Do they still affect you?
- Well, I mean, you never--
- your memories are there and you have moments.
- I think it comes mainly during our holidays.
- I think holidays always bring back much more the memories,
- even if you think of it during the other parts of the year.
- But I think holidays are really the one that--
- when all that comes back, how it could have been,
- how your life was completely distorted.
- I mean, when I think the dreams you had,
- and they were just shattered.
- I mean, you thank god that the way you came out,
- but it always comes back.
- It doesn't leave you.
- When you see of the career you hoped to achieve,
- the ambitions you had as a young person.
- And it was-- the only thing we can hope
- and pray, that it never, never will happen again.
- And it's terrible when you hear of incidents that we have here
- now, which we know will happen.
- And we know that antisemitism is here and is here to stay.
- But it's much more prominent at this point, I think,
- because of the type of government
- we're having to live with.
- The Reagan administration?
- Yes.
- It looks like we're going backwards rather than forward.
- I think there were times in my life-- it was only--
- I would think that it was when you
- asked a question of survival, that you are trying to forget.
- You are trying to put it all in back of you.
- I don't know if that happened to other people.
- Of course, I knew people that never
- really wanted to talk about, and never wanted to hear anything.
- I mean, I didn't--
- I was never that type.
- But I know there were times where one just
- had to go forward, and try to make it.
- And so maybe now, when you said, when I heard about this,
- I, at first, I hesitated, really, at first.
- I thought, well, but maybe this is
- a time where one should reflect, and let the next generation know
- exactly what can happen when you live,
- try to live a normal, honest life.
- Because I'm sure, when you heard other life stories, it's--
- each one must be so different.
- But I think what was different here,
- that one, the ancestors, I mean, they were really
- part of this regime.
- I mean, it was you were part of it.
- You were not isolated from it.
- I mean, there might have been some restriction
- at one time or the other.
- But those three generations that we can look back.
- I think they just, they were able to carry a normal life,
- to aspire to what their intelligence
- and their willingness would allow.
- So I think that makes it a different--
- makes it quite different.
- Is there anything else you'd like to add?
- Not at this moment.
- I'm sure there are some-- maybe things come back, but--
- Thank you very much.
- Well, you're very welcome.
- I mean, I hope--
- I see that you have your mother's identification card.
- Yeah.
- From Germany.
- This is the Kennkarte.
- That's the Kennkarte.
- Matilda Sara.
- I think I mentioned it, that also they
- put Sara on mine, right?
- And that was issued the 19th of April 1939.
- I wonder if that date had a reason, because actually, it's
- kind of much later, that one thought--
- maybe it had to do at the time--
- no, it's not.
- It was earlier than what-- much earlier than
- when she applied for that exit visa to come to our wedding.
- What is this?
- '44?
- This is, yeah, that's the number.
- That's going to be her number from then on.
- I was just wondering what this date is.
- 18th of April, '44.
- Yeah, what is-- well, they made it out five years.
- Mm-hmm.
- I see.
- So it's a five-year identification card.
- Five-year identification.
- Did she ever have to wear a star?
- You know, I don't remember her telling me.
- It's possible, but I can't remember.
- But I mean, this is, of course, the J card, right?
- With that, I'm sure, must have gone the band, don't you--
- I think so.
- No.
- OK, is there anything else you want to add?
- I don't think so.
- I am sure I forgot things, but I--
- at this point, I think this is--
- And this is my father's death certificate, you see.
- So many things happened in August in our family.
- Well, this is something.
- I said the 17th, when we were in Eppingen,
- but it's really the 18th he died, 18th of August.
- Just one day difference, 1930, when we got to the--
- I told you, that's when we happened to be at the graveside
- again.
- I'd like to go there together, and--
- Were you able to take any photographs out of Germany
- with you?
- No.
- And that's why I was always sad about that.
- All those things were left, mainly because we
- thought my uncle would come.
- Don't forget, we couldn't take anything along.
- I mean, there was nothing.
- There were no more suitcases left.
- There were nothing at all.
- I mean, you just could take whatever.
- So many things we just left because we
- had no way of carrying them and taking.
- I mean, so many things were left in Paris already when
- I had to flee from Paris.
- And then again, the things-- and all my-- everything.
- Everything was lost.
- My mother had sent things.
- My whole-- when she knew that we are marriage,
- she had furniture ordered, and everything had sent also.
- Well.
- OK, thank you very much.
- Well, you're very welcome, [? Jean. ?]
- OK you were telling me that, you know Marie Louise Kennedy, who
- has also been interviewed by the Oral History Project.
- Yes.
- It was a coincidence that I would meet Marie Kennedy
- by way of my cousin.
- My cousin, the family of my cousin in Thionville,
- that I mentioned before, was hiding at the same village,
- or where Marie and her family spent,
- I think, almost like four years in during the war.
- And while Marie was visiting in France,
- my cousin said, well, my cousin is working
- at Garfinckel's in Washington.
- And Marie said, well, I must get to know her.
- And because I don't work, far from it.
- I'm at GW Hospital.
- And Marie came, and we became friends,
- and we were friends ever since.
- And I advised her with her wardrobe, and we had--
- very, very, very happy that we became friends.
- OK, thank you.
- You're welcome.
- This has been Norm Stern interviewing Emilie Lellouche
- about her experiences as a survivor of the Nazi Holocaust.
- This interview will be included as a valuable contribution
- to the oral history library of the Oral History Project,
- Jewish Community Council of Greater Washington.
Overview
- Interviewee
- Emilie Lellouche
- Interviewer
- Norma Stern
- Date
-
interview:
1985 May 22
Physical Details
- Language
- English
- Extent
-
3 sound cassettes (60 min.).
Rights & Restrictions
- Conditions on Access
- There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
- Conditions on Use
- No restrictions on use
Keywords & Subjects
- Topical Term
- Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)--Personal narratives. Holocaust survivors--United States.
- Personal Name
- Lellouche, Emilie.
Administrative Notes
- Holder of Originals
-
Jewish Community Council of Greater Washington
- Legal Status
- Permanent Collection
- Provenance
- The interview with Emilie Lellouche was conducted on May 22, 1985 as part of the Jewish Community Council of Greater Washington's oral history project to document Washington, DC area survivor's experiences of the Holocaust. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum received the interview on May 26, 1993.
- Special Collection
-
The Jeff and Toby Herr Oral History Archive
- Record last modified:
- 2023-11-16 08:19:47
- This page:
- https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn511502
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