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Oral history interview with Ferenc Weiss

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2016.234.1 | RG Number: RG-50.030.0891

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    Oral history interview with Ferenc Weiss
    Transcript
    This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    interview with Mr. Ferenc Weiss on August 15, 2016,
    in Brooklyn, New York.
    Thank you very, very much, Mr. Weiss,
    for agreeing to speak with us today.
    You're very welcome.
    I'm going to start with the most basic questions.
    Can you tell me what was your name when you were born?
    7 19, '24.
    7 17, 1924.
    So your date of birth was July 17, 1924.
    And what was your name when you were born?
    Ferenc, F-E-R-E-N-C.
    How do I pronounce it?
    "Fer-enz"?
    Pardon me?
    Do I pronounce it "Fer-enz"?
    Ferenc.
    F-E-R-E-N-C.
    OK.
    And where were you born?
    I was born in Satu [INAUDIBLE] Hungarian.
    Was this a small town?
    Or was this a larger city?
    It was a big town, a very big city.
    Mhm.
    And there was more non-Jewish people living there.
    We were there probably by 25 families,
    which means 25 of us, maybe 30, 32, but I don't know exactly.
    I was too small to describe then.
    OK.
    But that town and the non-Jews was probably about 50,000.
    Wow.
    That was a very big city.
    So you were in a place where Jews were really in a minority.
    Not many Jews at all?
    Well, accordingly, there were a lot of Jewish people.
    Because 25 or 30 families, 30 persons, or you call it family,
    that probably could be a month, but an average by,
    let's say, say four kids, or four in the family.
    That was probably amount by 75,000.
    Yeah.
    Figure out.
    OK.
    I'm a little confused by the numbers.
    Excuse me for a second.
    Can we cut?
    Sure.
    Sorry, Mr. Weiss.
    There were things I weren't hearing.
    Are you saying 35,000 families?
    Thousand, yeah.
    Well, that's a difference.
    Yeah.
    That's a difference.
    I tell you the truth, I didn't count them exactly,
    all of them.
    You didn't go around counting.
    In every family, about three, four kids in the family.
    So you put that together, it amounts to a big amount.
    That's right.
    Yeah.
    That's right.
    We could say probably, at least, 100,000 people.
    Yeah, sure.
    Yeah.
    Remind me of the name of your town again.
    Because I didn't hear it.
    What's the name of the town you were born in?
    I didn't tell you the name because you
    didn't ask me for it.
    Sorry.
    Where were you born, that was the question.
    I was born in that state I just said.
    And the name was--
    should I repeat the name again?
    I repeat it three, four times.
    Because it was Hungarian Romania, Hungarian back again.
    Because the Germans take away from the other country.
    And they gave it for this country.
    So otherwise, we speak both languages.
    Because you were confused.
    You were by 10, 15 years in two different countries.
    And we spoke both of the languages at that time.
    So you spoke which languages with--
    German, Hungarian, and then that was the standard language
    in the land.
    And what we spoke, we could spoke Yiddish.
    We spoke Hebrew, maybe, and the other languages.
    But both language why I mentioned
    is a two different language, Hungarian and Romanian.
    Because the Hungarians with the Romanians,
    they were fighting for for ten years [INAUDIBLE] before.
    And some of them won.
    And some of them didn't.
    But when the Germans came, they wanted
    to be nice to the next county they should be quiet,
    keep quiet.
    So they take your life in this country about for 10, 15 years.
    And it was a generation, I mean, kids,
    and they only know two languages when they spoke.
    So we spoke Romanish and Hungarian.
    Because we went through a certain time.
    But we was leaving and facing both countries.
    Not in the same time--
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    --it was probably by then 15 years, at least,
    different time.
    It can get confusing.
    It get confused.
    But when the Germans decided something,
    they didn't ask about confusing.
    [LAUGHTER]
    They dissolved that language.
    Yeah.
    But anyway, this is what I was.
    So I remember very good the Hungarian time and very good
    the Romanish time.
    I could tell you all different it was.
    The Romanians, they walked with rubber shoes.
    Not exactly rubber shoes, shoes what you
    suppose you got in 10 pieces--
    how you say it--
    a Has four wheels, right?
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    Not wheels, I mean,
    With the rubber, the tire?
    The rubber was round.
    This I remember very good.
    I'm not talking about the rich people,
    but every people, just every day, walked with the--
    with the--
    Rubber soles?
    Rubbers.
    Yeah, yeah.
    That was so old-fashioned.
    And that's what-- didn't have but to shame you.
    But their whole life was shame.
    Well, so, like many people who were poor.
    Were rather poor.
    Yeah.
    And they walked with the Jews, I remember.
    That was the Romanian.
    The Hungarian was a more high standard.
    And even they were poor at that time.
    And what the middle class, which faced the world, life, they
    tried to behave differently.
    But those people who were unable to sign their names, or because
    by us was not a new thing that people
    were able to sign their names.
    Because the old-fashioned life was terrible.
    The Hungarians hated the [? Romanians ?]
    not everybody went in school right away.
    Yeah, yeah.
    And I remember even our people, which they called yeshiva,
    they were a little more high standard.
    But it came through--
    they came to your community.
    Because suppose I was in a different time in my life.
    I was never at home when I became, let's see, 13 years.
    Oh, so you moved?
    When you were 13-years-old, you moved to a different town.
    I did.
    They took me.
    I didn't moved.
    Who took you?
    Because I was-- my parents, my father, I suppose.
    I had to buy a ticket and go there to the next town.
    Now the town was so behind that they
    wanted to know for everybody's existence
    who they are, more or less, not every more or less.
    Yeah.
    They took a census.
    So we went-- we lived in a different town.
    They were very strict.
    They had registered "we" not "they."
    When I say "we" not "they," had to register
    by the police station.
    So as we arrived in the same day,
    and what name is us and so and so.
    Because the only connection we could have--
    there's no such a thing.
    Call up my father, should leave, because average people did not
    have telephones.
    Of course not.
    Yeah.
    When you wanted to make a telephone call,
    either way, you had to go up to the post office, which
    was a big building.
    And then you came there, we had to wait about probably
    half hour connection.
    We were told we were the next, because even the telephone
    company didn't have a lot of telephones
    to give service for the people.
    So we had to wait for a while to be connected.
    When we were already in that particular city,
    which I just said that we had to go and register by the city.
    I don't mean by the police, but the city.
    Tell me the name of that place you
    went to when you were 13 years old.
    What was the name of that city?
    Baia Mare.
    Yeah.
    That's Romania.
    In Roma-- and how far was it from your hometown?
    Oh, probably about 50 miles.
    And tell me again.
    Because my hearing is bad, the name of your hometown.
    Mine is bad too.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    [LAUGHS] The name of your hometown because I
    don't remember catching.
    Szatmárnémeti.
    Szatmárnémeti
    Two names.
    OK.
    Satmar is S-A-T-M-A-R. Satmar.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    When you-- all right, maybe you wanted to read it
    in Hungarian language.
    You had put a--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Dash.
    A dash?
    A dash.
    OK.
    And That means a Satmar.
    Ah.
    Then otherwise, you wouldn't be able to read it.
    And so right away, two parties had to come to the post office.
    OK.
    Speak to each other not at home--
    Yeah.
    --but on the telephone line.
    This is the way it was like at that time.
    We were standing by the post office, both of us,
    supposed you want to speak to the telephone.
    Either the fellow who was home in the other town.
    Yeah.
    Either-- not either, both of them.
    And the party, the second party, which was a different--
    another name already, another family, wanted to talk to them,
    the post office will connect to him, and he was standing by.
    So if I understand it right.
    Let's say you're in a town, and you
    want to speak to someone in another town.
    Another town.
    You go to the post office.
    The post office.
    The post office will connect you--
    To the post office in that--
    To the post office.
    And they send someone--
    To both post offices.
    Yeah.
    Not to individual-- because the individual--
    both of them didn't have no telephone.
    Right.
    They were not able to talk to each other.
    OK.
    And a lot of time, half we didn't
    understand because the mechanical system was lousy.
    I don't know how you spell lousy.
    L-O-U-S-Y.
    All right.
    Next time, I write it down.
    And so-- but my parents or somebody else in the family
    were not able to talk to me on the telephone.
    Suppose I went away to that school.
    Uh-huh.
    Right.
    Because I was-- mainly my life was yeshiva.
    I don't know what is it, yeshiva.
    It means for you a Jewish school.
    OK.
    Right away, my father was very religious.
    And he spent his life with slavery work that I remember.
    I don't know.
    I don't want to jump.
    You wanted to--
    I'm going to ask a lot of questions,
    but my first one right now was when
    you were sent away to that other town was
    that to attend a yeshiva?
    Yeshiva.
    OK.
    That was the purpose of your going?
    And the government expected that you should go--
    register wherever you go.
    Yeah.
    That was the system.
    That was the system.
    It was the system.
    Because otherwise they would not know about us.
    Exactly.
    So speaking about education, writing was to follow the--
    I wouldn't say the average people, but a lot of people
    who came from a very nice family,
    and they didn't know how to write either Romanish--
    OK.
    Either Hungarian.
    And there was one language, Yiddish language.
    Sometimes you have to interpret it.
    A lot of people from us, they know Romanish or, I suppose,
    Hungarian.
    Right?
    And they would be connected with the government.
    Yeah.
    And some people were not able to cooperate
    with the language, where we were, because we
    were in Hungarian or Romania.
    So right away, this is the only one what
    the government wanted to know--
    really where you are, where you came from.
    So how would we do it?
    Some kids who were not able to go,
    the reason was not able to know what language or one language
    is for some simple reason, because money again.
    Yeah.
    Money again.
    You were not able to do a continuation
    with the regular language because it was very--
    not very-- today money would be nothing.
    But there it was expensive.
    There, money was a terrible thing.
    So instead--
    So somebody didn't have the money to know both languages.
    Instead-- yeah.
    Correct.
    Instead of give education for that money,
    they would feed the children.
    Yeah.
    It was true all the time because to have--
    buy bread or milk was--
    average people was something--
    It was a hardship.
    --to write in the history.
    Yeah.
    Because sometimes it happened that not both child would
    have milk, would say you'll have it tomorrow.
    Was that in your family?
    This is-- no.
    No.
    My family was followed because we
    were a family of 13 children.
    Wow.
    There were 13 children.
    My father, himself, is the only one
    to support the whole family.
    Wow.
    And again, I can't go in depth, because it hurts me very much.
    It hurts.
    So let's talk about other things right now.
    It's a matter of fact, in this case--
    you should remind we.
    We have to, because--
    Yeah.
    I'm going to go back a little bit.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I want to go back to the beginning, because we feel--
    and we talk a little bit ahead.
    We come back.
    Yeah.
    And I forget.
    We'll fill in the story.
    It's OK.
    But what I want to do is see if I've understood you correctly.
    So what I'm going to do is repeat
    what I think you told me, and you tell me
    if I'm right or not.
    You lived in a town called Sat--
    Szatmárnémeti.
    Yes.
    Szatmárnémeti.
    I could spell it to you if you want.
    Yeah.
    I guess I do.
    I do.
    Let's start from the beginning.
    But what was it both ways.
    If you spell it both, Hungarian and Romanian, it's already--
    Different.
    Different.
    That's OK.
    So Szatmárnémeti is follows--
    S-Z--
    OK.
    A--
    OK.
    T--
    Uh-huh.
    M--
    Mhm.
    N-- I'm sorry.
    N.
    N.
    Uh-huh.
    N like nothing.
    OK.
    [CHUCKLES]
    E--
    OK.
    M--
    OK.
    E again--
    OK.
    T-Y.
    OK.
    But the difference, it's when I say T-Y in the top you have
    to make--
    A little sign.
    A dash.
    A dash.
    That's how to write your name to read it
    from the very beginning.
    OK.
    So when I say Nemety--
    Mhm.
    And on the E need the--
    Mhm.
    Again, after the T--
    Nemety was N-E-M-E-T, but you wanted to know to read the T,
    also Nemety--
    Mhm.
    You have to put again--
    A little sign.
    A little sign.
    Well, you know, it may sound simple to you,
    but for us it's very important.
    Because the people who are going to be listening
    to your interview and who will be writing a summary for it,
    they will want to know specifically where you came
    from, and you just told them.
    You just spelled out the name so there
    can be no mistake about it.
    And that's-- and the other thing that I find interesting that
    you tell me is that your birthplace,
    like many others in the region--
    you could be born and grow up in the same place
    and never move and be living in several countries.
    You could be part of Hungary.
    No, you couldn't--
    Or Romania, because the borders change.
    Yeah.
    You couldn't only if you register wherever you go.
    Yeah.
    They were very--
    Oh, that's true.
    They were very strict.
    --strict.
    Why were they very strict?
    Because they themselves couldn't have a cooperation with the two
    parties, only if you register in the town where were you--
    where you are.
    Not where you're born.
    But where you're living.
    Where you're leaving now.
    This is the only way.
    Yeah.
    They were very strict in that.
    I can imagine because there are-- when two countries want
    the same territory, they usually don't get along very well.
    Correct.
    You know, and so they want to know who is one of us
    and who is not.
    More.
    More.
    It's a matter of fact, if you would not
    register where you go--
    Yeah.
    --even in the same country, you will get a penalty,
    a penalty when they caught you.
    Yeah.
    Because otherwise they don't know you.
    Now, tell me, was your family from this place
    for generations, or had they come there from someplace else?
    They didn't come.
    They come-- they were born in Romania, which I just
    said was Hungarian and Romania.
    Yeah.
    So your father grew up and your mother grew up in--
    No.
    My father grew up in a different town,
    a different country, Hungarian.
    At the time, when he was Hungarian,
    then we were Romanian.
    As a matter of fact, we didn't have any connection with them,
    only if you spend a little money and go to the country
    and see them because one time was Romania, one time
    Hungarian.
    OK.
    So the border-- for instance, I--
    it's very funny.
    When I was over 13 years, if I wanted
    to go to the other border, my father wanted--
    I mean, never when I was small--
    later one, when I grew up, and they were very strict,
    he could come and go to my city where
    I was born because it was that town where we had to be.
    But-- when I was--
    when my parents was Hungarian, I was not able to go to them.
    But that time, I was--
    I wasn't born yet.
    Ah yeah.
    But when-- probably when he wanted to come to the country
    where I was born before.
    He wasn't able to go, only with the passport, make-believe.
    Yeah.
    With a passport.
    So anyway, make the story short, when I wanted to go in one city
    where he was born, he was legally already in a different
    state, Szatmárnémeti.
    Szatmárnémeti.
    Yeah.
    He became Romanian before he was Hungarian.
    So he was born in the Hungarian--
    the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
    When he was born, it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
    That's what I understanding.
    Yeah.
    Then I didn't-- I was born.
    You wouldn't know.
    You weren't born then.
    I wasn't born.
    But it came at a time when my parents wanted very much
    that I should go to the Hungarian
    where he was born to learn there.
    Ah.
    So the only way--
    they didn't let us, anybody, go ahead
    and go into town in a strange country, wherever you wanted.
    Of course.
    It took time.
    It took money also to travel.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    But I was climbing on the field, I remember.
    When I was about 15 years old, 14,
    I was especially ashamed to say it,
    but there was a special man who would take you over
    to other border, to one border to the other when I grow up
    there.
    So does that mean-- was it legally?
    No.
    No.
    It was illegally.
    No.
    It's illegally.
    Illegally because there was a lot of complications
    to be lived there.
    OK.
    Because when I went to live there,
    I went to live there at least for one year.
    And it was a terrible loss in all the interactions.
    If you wanted to stay there, go to a strange country.
    It wasn't so easy at that time.
    No.
    So I'm ashamed to say it, but I have to say it.
    Probably my parents--
    I mean my parents--
    I was small that time.
    Of course.
    And I remember I was climbing in the middle of the night
    on the floor with the man who--
    On the fields?
    On the field, correct.
    As a matter of fact--
    You weren't alone.
    So many people were smuggled.
    Maybe four or five people from parents together.
    As a matter of fact, it happened to me one day--
    well, not one day, in the middle of the night,
    it was very funny that I was walking
    the night with the people--
    with that man who told us where to go.
    And all of sudden, he got very, very scared.
    What happened?
    Some-- [INAUDIBLE] Yiddish, English, [YIDDISH]..
    Of Yiddish.
    What is it?
    [YIDDISH]
    It's an animal.
    I mean a rabbit?
    An animal, yeah.
    A rabbit maybe?
    A rabbit, a rabbit.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Jumped out in the field in the middle of the night
    and scared him.
    It was terrible.
    [LAUGHTER]
    All right.
    So much for this.
    So let me-- let me understand something.
    I want to ask about--
    you said your father--
    you had 13 people in your family.
    Yeah.
    That means your mother, your father, and how many children?
    I had-- we were together.
    We were seven brothers.
    OK.
    Four sisters.
    Seven brothers and four sisters.
    And where in that list were you?
    The youngest?
    The oldest?
    The middle?
    I was the fourth one.
    The fourth oldest?
    Yeah.
    OK.
    And were you-- did you have an older brother?
    I had one brother older.
    OK.
    And the other ones were sisters.
    And why-- were all of the boys going to be sent to yeshiva?
    Or was it just the older children?
    Only when they get old.
    OK.
    But all the boys are to go to the yeshiva?
    More or less.
    It wasn't so easy, because of the money.
    OK.
    To keep up and all this.
    How did your father support this family?
    That was our life all the time.
    What was his business?
    What did he do?
    That's also a funny thing.
    We had some cows.
    OK.
    All right.
    Four or five cows, I don't know.
    And the time-- they feeded them of course.
    They have to feed them for milk throughout their life.
    OK.
    And they-- at that time, they gave us milk.
    The cows gave milk.
    Sure.
    And I still remember--
    I don't know-- they did it.
    When I went to smaller school, all right--
    OK.
    When I stay home, my father told us,
    he organized that we should go and help my sisters.
    No way it would happen today.
    Would go a girl, 18 or 20 years old, and schlep a can of milk.
    That's right.
    That's right.
    How many cows did you have?
    No.
    Wait a minute.
    OK.
    OK.
    I'll wait.
    Well, it was probably four or five cows.
    OK.
    And I had to do it.
    My brothers had to do it.
    My sisters had to do it every morning.
    You could think about--
    Had to help each other.
    Help.
    I helped my sisters.
    My sisters did what the parents told them, because they
    were a little bigger.
    They used to schlep that in the city
    and give everybody in a can.
    So you used to deliver fresh milk?
    Before I went-- fresh milk.
    Before I went-- before I went into school in the morning,
    let's see.
    It had to be in the morning 9 o'clock in the school.
    We had to wake up at 6:00, 7:00--
    whatever it is.
    You can imagine that I do that.
    But the difference is-- the difference
    is he had no child would do it, even your father would tell you
    10 times.
    Yeah.
    But the difference is the respect
    was so high with the parents that we
    do everything-- everything what they told us to do.
    Soon after I finished with my sisters, we were three--
    three brothers who helped the sisters,
    schlepping it everywhere.
    I don't know how I did it, how we did it.
    The respect would be so high that we had it do it.
    After we finished, we helped our sisters.
    Deliver it, huh?
    Deliver it and give for everyone, whatever they wanted.
    You went in the school.
    And only then-- only then you went to school?
    Only then, yeah, we did.
    But I remember we did it a couple years.
    Mhm.
    This was the life.
    So your fa-- so what it was is that you--
    No, I didn't finish.
    OK.
    OK.
    So you-- I'm sorry.
    It's OK.
    You were asking me--
    You're the storyteller.
    You were asking me how did they make--
    A living?
    --a living from the four cows.
    Yeah.
    Which is 11 and 13 with the family kids.
    That's right.
    My father was a very handy man, and the handy man's knowledge
    forced him to do whatever he could.
    OK.
    He was a glazier, cutting glasses,
    glasses for somebody who has a broken window, somebody--
    he didn't--
    he didn't work for everybody.
    It was a very big city, who did it--
    the storekeepers.
    OK.
    But he did it privately.
    And whenever he find out that somebody needs a broken window,
    he would schlep.
    You could figure just to get out--
    you ever carry glasses [INAUDIBLE],, how heavy that is?
    They're very heavy.
    Did he have any-- any horses or anything?
    At that time was not such a style to go ahead
    and bike, a bicycle.
    Or go ahead make four wheels.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Something to carry it.
    Because it was money.
    Yeah.
    With that money he would buy food for the kids.
    That's the style of life.
    So he'd better struggle.
    We could-- we could do the same thing, what I just mentioned.
    My sisters schlepped with the--
    Milk.
    Milk with the thing.
    And they wouldn't have to schlep it with their hand.
    And they did it with the hand because with that money
    you could buy--
    Food.
    So he did-- he did--
    he went to place to place wherever
    somebody needs a window.
    He didn't put an advertisement or something.
    That was too expensive.
    You had to go to place to place.
    Hard work.
    Hard work.
    Very hard work.
    And you carried-- did he carry the glass with him?
    Yes.
    Did it-- did it break as he was carrying it?
    It happened sometimes, it could break.
    Yeah.
    Because if you weren't able to schlep so much.
    But don't ask.
    So what I want to come to this conclusion.
    When I grow up, I became--
    I became by 13 years old.
    I became a little more thinkable what's life.
    Yeah.
    And I see how my father--
    Worked.
    Worked.
    And I couldn't take it.
    And I decided that I would learn a trade or something maybe
    I could help my father.
    But my father was very strict.
    Mhm.
    He was religious.
    He definitely wanted all the children--
    well, it was by 9--
    it was by by 7 boys who had already grow up big.
    Yeah.
    He wanted they should have them all education, not to work,
    only in Hebrew education.
    Don't ask.
    To tell my father this, it hurts me very much.
    Yeah.
    I wasn't able to tell him because I
    know he's going to tell me it's not your business.
    There is a God.
    He takes care.
    He was afraid that I would get spoiled.
    Like today, some education goes into hell.
    Yeah.
    Excuse me my English.
    It's OK.
    Because when they became updated, modern,
    they spend their money for nonsense things, they become--
    morale, everything is throwing away.
    This way it looks like today, the killing and shooting that
    is connected with that--
    with this and with my parents' problem for the Germans,
    what the Hungarians did to them.
    God pays back.
    But I don't want to go in--
    We'll go in-- we'll do that later.
    This conversation, this is what happened.
    Life is so up morale, not--
    not normally killing and shooting.
    It don't mean nothing.
    Of course.
    But in my life, what we read in the newspaper
    that somebody killed somebody, it's all very--
    with the newspaper, would stay in newspaper
    in the headlines couple of months.
    Yeah.
    Killing.
    A killing?
    No such a thing, no way.
    Nobody heard of such things.
    Nobody heard of such.
    Nobody did such things.
    Besides, the people were not educated,
    and that was good too.
    Because if you take an average kid, even a 20-year-old,
    today the kids from 15 years know how to shoot.
    That's what happen incidentally.
    They shoot their own mother.
    Because they know-- they don't know exactly what a small
    child--
    they see their father has a gun.
    He is wondering to see how it works.
    Yeah.
    So suppose he does--
    by mistake he shoots his own father.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    These things they didn't exist at that time.
    No.
    No.
    They didn't.
    There was no such a thing.
    People could-- I mean you should see in the paper
    how one killed each other.
    Yeah.
    Oh my goodness.
    We're talking about weeks.
    So what do you want to bring it out altogether?
    I don't know if we got away.
    OK.
    It's OK.
    But I will-- you're telling me one--
    you're telling me exactly what I want to know.
    It's just we're going sometimes a little forward,
    a little back.
    Correct.
    So--
    So your father--
    So my father did struggle a couple years.
    He carried merchandise by hands.
    And slowly they know him, knew about it.
    They did not call because we didn't have telephone.
    But somehow, they-- we would know it.
    So they would call him, come fix a window, you know?
    Yeah, yeah.
    So this is the way we knew it.
    So he-- so he--
    So it bothered me very much.
    So did you--
    That he's schlepping every day.
    Did you tell him you wanted to learn a trade?
    I decided that I must tell my father--
    not my father-- in nature with the mother you walk,
    you talk much closer than with a father.
    Mhm.
    The father's, by general nature, strictly.
    Yeah.
    Strict.
    We did not.
    So I couldn't go ahead and tell my father
    I want to learn a trade deal to help you a little bit.
    Yeah.
    But did you tell your mother?
    I decided for my mother I can tell it.
    Yeah.
    I could tell it.
    So I went to tell her.
    I says, this is my thinking.
    Yeah.
    And I was already then fourth, fifth child.
    I was much younger.
    I was about 17, 18 years old.
    And I told my mother she should live in peace, live in peace.
    Who knows what they did.
    But anyway-- that I would like to learn a trade.
    Because I can--
    I can look at every morning my father just schlepping
    such heavy glass all day because the milk--
    what my sisters, and me, and brothers helped
    was not enough for--
    for so many persons to support, to survive.
    So he did both jobs to this way--
    Of course.
    --maybe he could--
    Did anybody of your older siblings help him?
    That's the problem with my--
    my sisters helped with milk.
    That was enough.
    I see.
    My brothers-- I would gladly do it.
    My older brother would gladly do it.
    But he didn't want we should spend our daily time only
    with working.
    He was a very generous father.
    He was.
    He wanted more for you.
    Not only him.
    That was the style.
    Respect him.
    I would never say to my father, not even that word
    "you," no such a thing.
    I would go around and say, maybe my father, if you wanted,
    I could do this or do this.
    But to tell my father, this what I want to do it.
    I wouldn't ask him permission.
    Mind your own business.
    No such a thing.
    We would-- like I just said, my mother decide--
    I decided that I'll tell my mother,
    and my mother will tell the father that this man, your son,
    has in mind.
    She told me, listen.
    She was very surprised that a boy like me thinks like this.
    Yeah.
    [SNORTS] She felt sorry for me.
    She says, I would do it gladly, but you
    know your father's going to tell me you--
    you're not the supporter.
    Or I'm not a supporter.
    God is supporter.
    He was very religious, you know?
    Yeah.
    So I don't know how he did it, how he--
    he doesn't tell me every daily life.
    It's not my business.
    I wouldn't ask him.
    But she says, all right, I'll tell daddy.
    What don't expect that I am going to be with success.
    Yeah.
    Of course, she would not bargain with him either.
    Of course.
    That was another life.
    And finally, she decided she'd tell my father--
    look at your son.
    He has such a good idea.
    Maybe he was-- you let them know--
    let them know that he should get the idea that--
    I don't know how to say it.
    That you'd learn a trade.
    That I'd learn a trade.
    So he said, what do you think about?
    I wasn't there when he told my--
    Mother.
    --mother.
    What he said-- when my mother came back, he says,
    I should not--
    she should not worry about it because he's
    struggling in school.
    There is a God in the world.
    He'll-- He'll give me--
    Help.
    Help.
    He'll give me-- every day, the daily life,
    I'll find something--
    always find something to help for the children.
    And that [INAUDIBLE].
    And she said, you were screaming at me.
    When she came back, she told me, your father
    was a little screaming at me.
    There is a God in the world.
    I shouldn't worry about it.
    And that was finished.
    When he said no, respectable.
    OK.
    They didn't fight each other.
    And I came back.
    I didn't give up.
    I finally-- I went to my aunt.
    My aunt was a widow.
    And she struggled, of course.
    Maybe she just struggled like my father,
    because she had an open business.
    She became a widow.
    The little business before he died--
    OK.
    Her husband.
    And of course, maybe they helped-- they did help--
    for the parent, for the father.
    Mhm.
    They sold wood for fire in winter.
    In Europe, it was the style at that time,
    if you wanted to be--
    there should be heat in the house,
    you would buy a bunch with wood.
    Mhm.
    And make a fire out of it.
    In winter that would give you--
    Heat?
    Heat.
    Yes.
    No such a thing, steam.
    Yeah.
    Maybe the very, very modern state.
    So did you heat by wood or coal?
    By wood.
    OK.
    And later on, I remember I grew up, we did it with coal too.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    But not like this that you were heating with the steam.
    Yeah.
    You would have a little, something--
    whatever you call it.
    You would make a--
    put it on the fire with that.
    And you would throw it in the oven.
    Mhm.
    And that was longer heating than a regular--
    wood with fire would very fast too.
    So your aunt supplied your family with some wood
    from her business?
    Is this it?
    From her business.
    OK.
    She used to sell it, and they would put it on--
    on an oven, whatever it is.
    And sometimes, you'd have to watch
    for cooking very long because--
    Right.
    --slowly heating.
    Well, sometimes you have to have different types of wood.
    Some type of wood burn slow.
    Sometimes burns fast.
    Well, I got news for you.
    What?
    They-- when they had the farmer, when the farmer had the wood,
    it did that put on to--
    under waterproof, dependable roof.
    No.
    Was a plane in the backyard.
    OK.
    It was fire-- he would get from the wilderness
    and bring it home.
    And either the owner would have cut it himself piece by piece.
    And sell it--
    That way.
    Sell it.
    Wood.
    Some wood very, very wet.
    Yes.
    It didn't-- you asked me that question.
    Yeah.
    How-- he had to struggle--
    the owner had to struggle if the wood was wet,
    the owner of the wood had to sell it for cheaper.
    Because they were suffering too.
    Yeah.
    Till they get the little--
    some of the people who could afford it--
    to buy such a wood and dry one--
    Right.
    Would-- that the guy would have it some place.
    Build up something against the wa--
    the water, or the wetness.
    And he would sell that wood that would burn right away.
    Yeah.
    So you would have--
    Yeah.
    Everything was money, money.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And the quality of wood, how it burns,
    how you use it, and so on.
    Now, a few things I forgot to ask.
    What was your father's name?
    Samuel Weiss.
    Samuel Weiss.
    Yes.
    And your mother's name?
    Geta Weiss.
    Geta Weiss.
    And what was her maiden name?
    The funny thing is everybody asks this question.
    We are-- we were--
    me and my wife were cousins.
    Really?
    OK.
    In Europe, they did not make a particular thing like here.
    Yeah.
    And it was legal.
    And the funny thing is not only it--
    the maiden name was also Weiss.
    For your mama?
    For mama, yeah.
    OK.
    So her maiden name was Weiss.
    And-- and-- so it's Weiss.
    Right away, I have to change the idea.
    She was-- I don't know.
    How did it happen?
    That because she was actually Neuman.
    Her name was Neuman.
    Neuman?
    Neuman.
    OK.
    N-E-U-M-A-N.
    Neuman.
    Mhm.
    Neuman.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    Neuman.
    OK.
    Neuman.
    But uh-- how was it then?
    OK.
    So now, since we're on the question of names,
    so your father is Samuel.
    Your mother is Geta.
    Geta.
    Your oldest brother or sister, what was their name?
    Oldest brothers-- Rachel.
    Rachel.
    Rachel was her name.
    OK.
    Then?
    And the oldest was brother.
    I have to spell it.
    OK.
    Lajos.
    Lajos.
    Lajos.
    OK.
    It's L-A-J like--
    Yot.
    Yeah.
    O-S.
    Lajos?
    Lajos.
    I've never heard that name before.
    I didn't hear it neither before.
    Is he the only one who had it?
    Did you ever meet another Lajos?
    No.
    No.
    There was never a different name in the family.
    OK.
    So we have Rachel, Lajos, then?
    Then?
    Who comes after that in siblings?
    Brothers and sisters?
    Brothers and sisters.
    Yeah.
    All your brothers and sisters.
    I'd like to know their first names.
    Oh, you'll-- I'll break my feet--
    teeth.
    But I don't have my teeth already.
    Well, you could have fooled me.
    What?
    You could have fooled me.
    Those look like your teeth.
    Yeah.
    But you know, it was a good dentist.
    [CHUCKLES] OK.
    So after Lajos, who's next?
    After Lajos was Gloria.
    Gloria.
    Oh, what a lovely name.
    OK.
    So Rachel, Lajos, Gloria, then you?
    Then me.
    OK.
    Ferenc.
    Then after that?
    Then after that, not after that because there
    was a younger brother for me.
    After that, I was the one, which I mentioned before,
    Ferenc Weiss.
    OK.
    I said Weiss.
    Ferenc.
    All right.
    That was a Hungarian name.
    And in English it would be.
    Frank?
    Francis.
    Francis.
    OK.
    I had so many names that I don't--
    I could pick it up any time a different name.
    [CHUCKLES] And then after Francis, who comes next?
    After Francis comes Morris.
    Morris.
    Yes.
    OK.
    And after Morris?
    After Morris, after Morris--
    that was--
    You're Ferenc, then Morris.
    I'm Ferenc.
    Then, Morris.
    Then--
    Then, then, then comes--
    a girl again.
    OK.
    And then after her?
    After her is uh--
    I'm confused already.
    OK.
    Wait a minute.
    After-- not after her, before her was--
    was a name like--
    Xander.
    Xander was a boy.
    Xander was a boy.
    A boy.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    After her-- after him comes her name.
    OK.
    And do you remember your-- that sister's name?
    His sister's name.
    So there was Rachel, Gloria, and she would be the third sister.
    She would be the youngest.
    OK.
    I don't know what.
    She-- I'd say Feigel.
    Feigel.
    Feigel is fine.
    All right.
    So Feigel.
    So then there was Xander and Feigel.
    Yeah.
    And then after Feigel, who was there?
    After Feigel comes a boy already.
    All right.
    And what was his name?
    Uh.
    Xander.
    OK.
    After him?
    And after him, after him comes--
    see, I'm not a joker.
    How many times do I call him today?
    After him, did I-- wait a minute.
    Did I-- did I say Moses yet?
    You hadn't said Moses.
    You said Morris, but not Moses.
    Morris.
    OK.
    Morris was--
    OK.
    So shy.
    Xander I said.
    You said.
    I said.
    Now I had girls.
    Yeah.
    Sister.
    Feigel.
    Yeah.
    But I had another one.
    OK.
    I had another one.
    Smaller, already.
    Gladys.
    Gladys.
    OK.
    So I'm up to--
    I need three more.
    Of course, Gladys is English.
    OK.
    Yeah.
    But we call her different.
    How did you call her?
    Call her Feige.
    Feige?
    Feige.
    Uh-huh.
    OK.
    And then three more children.
    Three more children.
    The youngest children, who-- what were their names?
    The youngest children was--
    I said Feige.
    You said that, yeah.
    The youngest children was--
    one was born-- one was very, very young.
    One was very young.
    Mhm.
    And not so easy.
    OK.
    We can leave that.
    But you know, at least I know the names
    of some of your siblings and your father
    and your mother's name.
    That's good.
    Yeah.
    That's good.
    Was I named after one?
    Huh?
    Was your daughter named after any
    of your brothers and sisters?
    Didn't you have a Suri?
    Was there a Suri?
    Suri.
    That's me.
    That's one of the younger ones.
    Sara.
    OK.
    So Sara.
    Sara was the youngest sister maybe.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Sara.
    OK.
    So your father was a glazier and your sisters delivered milk
    to clients.
    And--
    Yeah.
    Plus my brother-- plus brothers.
    Plus brothers.
    Plus brothers.
    Yeah.
    And then sometimes your aunt, who
    had a little business-- she was a widow.
    She helped out by supplying wood.
    Yeah.
    But I didn't continue.
    OK.
    Please tell me about her.
    I figure that she is the one who more involved
    already in daily life.
    Because she-- since her--
    her husband died--
    Mhm.
    So I had to go to her.
    When you saw you had to go, it's only 20 mile.
    There's no such a thing.
    You go-- be there.
    Yeah.
    You had to figure out.
    Go by train or take a day.
    Yeah.
    That's right.
    20 miles.
    That's right.
    It wasn't so easy.
    Plus paying.
    Mhm.
    The dues.
    So I went to her, and I said, yeah.
    And it was very funny.
    I went to visit, and that adds nothing to this story.
    But she was modern, like I said, more updated.
    And I was old fashioned, I believe,
    because according to my parents, I had such long--
    I don't know how you say it.
    I'm sure it doesn't have an English word.
    Peyos?
    Huh?
    What was the word?
    What's the word?
    You say it already.
    Was it peyos?
    How do you know it?
    [CHUCKLES]
    OK.
    So I had long ones all the way down.
    And she was modern.
    She was saying, why do you need that long--
    Peyos.
    Uh-huh.
    Tell my aunt it's not your business.
    There was no such a thing.
    There was no such a--
    such a language on my Hungarian language, or any language.
    I would bend down my head and say to my aunt,
    I had decision that I'm not going to do it anyway.
    But I didn't say one word.
    We became friendly, so believe one side.
    And she-- I didn't say a word.
    Not your business.
    Of course.
    Or my father wanted strict.
    I didn't say one word.
    And I looked down my face, you know.
    This my aunt told me.
    She comes with-- one daughter of hers
    comes already with the scissors.
    And she cuts it off.
    And I was very disappointed.
    I says, what's my father going to say?
    Yeah.
    And it happened.
    She cuts off-- talking.
    We're talking.
    She didn't have your provision.
    She decided she cut it off.
    In the meantime--
    That's a shock.
    Shock.
    And I was--
    I just say everything that happened.
    Meantime, I'm supposed to meet my uncle.
    He was also religious.
    He used to cut the chickens.
    Oh.
    He used to-- was a kosher butcher.
    Kosher butcher.
    Correct.
    OK.
    And that week, that day, that night, whatever it is--
    was a remembering for a certain man, which was my help--
    helper of my father, his help.
    Was a title or something, [NON-ENGLISH]..
    An honor.
    An honor.
    An honor.
    OK.
    When I was a small child--
    OK.
    He was the one that carried my--
    the child to-- to that other who was--
    I wasn't there.
    I was there, but I--
    I was three months--
    Yeah.
    Two, three months old.
    Even less.
    I can't figure--
    So what was the--
    he carries a small child for what purpose?
    It's a Jewish tradition.
    I was born then.
    It's a Jewish tradition.
    He handled to my father.
    Are you talking about a bris?
    Was it a bris?
    Bris, yeah.
    Ah, OK.
    Just say what it is.
    OK.
    All right.
    So I don't remember.
    I was there.
    Of course not.
    Of course.
    I still don't remember.
    That night was an anniversary for that rabbi.
    Ah.
    OK.
    An honor.
    Yahrzeit
    And I--
    A yahrzeit.
    OK.
    Yahrzeit.
    And I was small child-- small still.
    For the [INAUDIBLE].
    Anyway, we should-- we supposed to meet there, you know.
    He told me at night to come there.
    And you're going to be there by the--
    By the aunt?
    By the aunt.
    And-- yeah, yeah.
    OK.
    I had my cut off.
    He says, what did you do?
    Who cut your deal?
    I couldn't-- I couldn't tell her it's my sister,
    your sister who did it because there was an aunt.
    They were brother and sister.
    I'm just saying original stories.
    OK.
    And of course, you know, it was--
    I started crying.
    Oh.
    Oh.
    I didn't do nothing.
    I didn't say a word.
    My aunt did it, which is we wouldn't say your sister.
    Of course not.
    You wouldn't say "it was your sister."
    You would say "my aunt."
    My aunt.
    Yeah.
    "I'll give her hell."
    And anyway, all kind of--
    I'll take care of her.
    And there was a rabbi standing by.
    It was devastating for him.
    And he felt very sorry and started crying.
    Aw.
    And I didn't say nothing.
    So at that time, when I was small, I was a--
    I had a good voice.
    That's what the people say.
    I was singing.
    I was praying my life by 20 years for the synagogue.
    But all right.
    He finally says, him.
    He said don't cry.
    Don't cry.
    You know, you're going to sing for us tonight.
    Oh.
    So really it was sing--
    OK.
    Singing and crying.
    --crying.
    Don't ask.
    Don't ask.
    This was forgiven.
    OK.
    Forgiveness.
    We became friends.
    All right.
    That was that story.
    Forget about it.
    But what did you-- why did you want to go to your aunt
    as far as learning the trade?
    You said you didn't give up when your mother said--
    Correct.
    Because-- thank you for reminding me.
    Because I knew that she's modern-thinking.
    She was real modern-thinking.
    She would go ahead and tell my mother
    the worry I have in my mind.
    OK.
    Because I was hoping that--
    I tried everything I could.
    Yeah.
    It bothered my life.
    To see him work so hard?
    Yeah.
    So when my father asked me who did it, I didn't--
    I couldn't do it because I figure psychologically
    it's not nice to say something wrong about your aunt,
    you know.
    So I went to my uncle, the one who screamed "you cut it off."
    And I told him, I didn't say your sister.
    I said my aunt--
    again, we didn't say--
    Not direct.
    Nothing direct.
    No.
    No.
    OK.
    My aunt did it.
    OK.
    I'm going to give her hell, I go back.
    When I go-- anyway, that was--
    she was a modern day of modern.
    So I thought that she's going to--
    I tried everything to learn a trade and help money-wise.
    So I figure she's modern.
    She's going to talk to him.
    She also said, all right.
    I'll talk to you--
    to your father.
    It was for him--
    for her sister.
    OK.
    So your aunt was your father's sister.
    Father's sister.
    And you had-- and he had another brother
    who was the one you went to and who said, who did this to you?
    Correct.
    And I said her name.
    OK.
    OK.
    I didn't say your sister.
    You said my aunt so-and-so.
    My aunt-- your people can't understand.
    Yeah.
    That was life then.
    That's only way you could control your children.
    You know-- you know that as a limit,
    you could talk to your father, and that's it.
    That's right.
    Well, in many European languages,
    in German I know that you have two words.
    There's du und Sie.
    And you know, you never would refer to your father as du.
    No.
    Never, never, never, never.
    No way.
    No.
    No.
    I just-- you said it yourself.
    Yeah.
    There's no way.
    Everything respect.
    A child or a 10, 15-year-old boy or a girl
    didn't know otherwise.
    We went in a train.
    You travel in the train, you see an old lady or an old man
    standing, she would say--
    he would say you want to take my seat.
    You know, it was very natural.
    Yes.
    We never said-- even an older man, we didn't say you.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    So your aunt said she would speak with your father.
    Did she?
    She did.
    And what happened?
    Because she felt very sorry for me.
    Oh.
    That I am think about.
    Yeah.
    And was there a different reaction?
    She give me a lot of respect.
    She said, don't worry about it.
    I'll talk-- and I'll be successful.
    OK.
    Of course, he give her also hell.
    [CHUCKLES]
    Don't ask what she said.
    [MUTTERS] So it was--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Yeah.
    Finally, her sister-- she became also a widow.
    OK.
    In a different town.
    OK.
    Her husband has a binding business, book binding.
    Oh.
    Yeah.
    And I knew--
    I learned that trade, and I went in business for this trade
    finally, you know.
    And this is a trade I learned there, which--
    From the second sister?
    From the second sister.
    Well, it has something to do with learning.
    I figure-- and I was still learning.
    Yeah.
    And I figure she is going to help me.
    OK.
    But I didn't give her an idea what I have in mind.
    You help me or you help.
    Your aunt help.
    Yeah.
    My aunt helped me or you help.
    Again, I went back--
    she went back.
    She didn't care that she got help from--
    From your father.
    Yeah.
    She went back again and says--
    now, she says, we are--
    the time is terrible bad.
    The Germans walked in in my town.
    And it became very different in the laws and everything.
    And Jewish people get fired.
    They wasn't able to work.
    They take away their license.
    So my father probably saw already what's going on,
    so she went to him.
    She says, "Listen.
    My husband died.
    I want to take in a boy-- somebody, a man, a boy,
    he must help me.
    I-- I can't do it alone, or I can't do at all.
    But I'll do it.
    And you-- you help me.
    Give me the OK that your son would help me, and I'll--
    of course, I'm going to help him out too.
    I'm going to pay for him, whatever."
    I don't know what kind of agreement--
    Yeah, yeah.
    --they had.
    He says, you go--
    tell her.
    He says, I give--
    let him go to work.
    OK.
    To you, but I disagree with her.
    Ah.
    I'm not going along.
    Disagreeing is no good, again, because not giving the respect
    to my father.
    And this is the way he died.
    He disagreed.
    And that saddens--
    I was working there maybe--
    maybe three years.
    So let me see if I understand this correctly.
    You didn't even go to the second aunt to ask her help.
    No.
    I did not go.
    But he already knew--
    The old-- already, the other sister--
    Had already-- ah.
    --told her.
    This is you-- this--
    this-- my name, they called me Ephraim.
    Ephraim.
    OK.
    My Hebrew name.
    But he says, he wants to help his father.
    She said, maybe we'll go together.
    We'll speak with him.
    And they did.
    They went together, both.
    They told him this is the situation.
    You want it.
    You need maybe money, a little help.
    And she needs assistant.
    Help.
    She's going to pay money for a strange man.
    Why don't you let him do it?
    He says, let him go, but I disagree.
    I told him my opinion of it.
    And this is the way he died.
    I was working.
    I was working by my aunt.
    I did everything.
    I don't know whether he paid for my father also.
    And that way was a lie that she said
    I promise you he's going to go every day
    to pray in the synagogue.
    I'm not going to let him be bad--
    a bad boy.
    Yeah.
    She said, she told my father, said let him go help, so you--
    but I disagreed with him.
    Do you remember saying goodbye to your father
    then when you went to your aunt's house?
    No.
    My father is family--
    with my family.
    I was working for my aunt.
    Right?
    Yeah.
    When the Germans already came.
    Already?
    They had already been there when your aunt went to your father?
    That's what you said.
    When I went to my father.
    And this-- excuse me--
    I'm going to--
    I'm going to interrupt for a second
    because I want to understand.
    At that point, you were in Romania?
    Everything was Romania, not Hungary.
    Correct.
    Yeah.
    So-- so it was-- what-- do you remember
    what year this must have been?
    Huh?
    Do you remember about what year this
    must have been when the Germans came to Romania?
    I wouldn't-- I was so small.
    It's OK.
    It's OK.
    I just wanted to get a sense that you're in Romania,
    and this is the German invasion, the Nazi invasion of Romania.
    Romania.
    OK.
    And so you're at your aunt's.
    And-- you said this was in a different town?
    A different town definitely.
    What was the name of the town?
    Mátészalka.
    Mátészalka.
    Yeah.
    And from there they took me, the Germans.
    OK.
    OK.
    But you were-- and your aunt's name,
    who at the bookbinding shop, what was her name?
    Farkash.
    Farkash.
    And that's her last name?
    Her-- that was her name too, because her husband was--
    Farkash.
    Farkash.
    And her first name?
    Weiss.
    Weiss.
    I know, but her--
    was she-- her first name as a--
    So she ran the business like Farkash.
    OK.
    It was just as a name.
    Somebody dies.
    Widow.
    She was a widow.
    Widow Farkash.
    Farkash.
    Ah, OK.
    Widow Farkash was her--
    because she wanted continue the name from the binding.
    Of course.
    Whatever she did.
    And she had to register by the city, because they were--
    she was working for the city.
    Oh, so she worked for the city.
    So this was one of her clients.
    My uncle--
    Uh-huh.
    --did also work for the city.
    So when he was working there, I would
    say 75% the city gave her wherever they need some jobs,
    books.
    OK.
    Empty pages.
    Did you like the work?
    Well, of course, I liked it.
    Well, there's work, and there's work.
    This sounds like interesting work.
    Yeah.
    Better we was binding--
    I don't know if you ever see binding.
    Never saw it.
    So that's why I'd like to hear about it.
    The thread.
    OK.
    When the printer-- we got it from the printer.
    OK.
    And the printer-- printers give it for us--
    OK.
    --to bind.
    OK.
    But the bills, whatever it is, went to the city--
    to the city.
    That's where we get paid.
    OK.
    And-- all right.
    What else?
    Well, it was-- I was asking you about--
    what-- how does-- what is involved with binding a book?
    Binding a book is, even today, if you want to make a hand one.
    Where today is a stitcher machine.
    It will stitch together every--
    All the pages?
    Yeah.
    All the pa-- not the whole bunch.
    Slowly, let's say five or 10 sheets at a time.
    You bind the book with a thread with all other parties.
    They become-- you get a cloth.
    You cover on the other side.
    But when I became a little bigger,
    and my widow was working, she was working different.
    We would get from the printer the sheets.
    Yeah.
    Became a little more modern, you know.
    OK.
    And we would sew with a sewing machine, the sheets together.
    OK.
    No more by hand.
    OK.
    That was already when her husband died.
    OK.
    That you had that machine.
    She had that machine.
    Yeah.
    She had the machine.
    I don't know how she handled it.
    And the books-- book is already sewed.
    OK.
    Then, we would take--
    we would put it on something, take and glue it up.
    OK.
    Glued the back.
    Was it cardboard?
    Cardboard on the top.
    OK.
    Every book had the cardboard with covers.
    OK.
    Cloth.
    Cloth covers.
    Cloth covers.
    OK.
    That's today.
    That's as it is today.
    Yeah.
    It's outdated.
    OK.
    Before also we weighed cloth.
    Yeah.
    But I did it by hand.
    So how do you do it by hand?
    What do you do?
    Well, when I get tired with this hand, I did the other one.
    But what is it that you do?
    You have the book cover.
    You put the cloth.
    Is it gluing?
    Is it ironing it?
    Is it heating it?
    The cloth-- the--
    well, the book is already sewed--
    OK.
    --together.
    OK.
    Now, you have to cover it with the cloth.
    OK.
    Before you did it.
    And the cloth is very simple.
    You take a piece of cloth--
    OK.
    --how big the book is.
    You cover it with the glue.
    Yeah.
    And that glue sticks together the cover--
    and the cloth-- and it's very good to save--
    maybe for two, three years, because the cloth is not paper.
    Yeah.
    It's cloth.
    And we had to size every book, how thick she is.
    If it's thin, we take a thinner cloth.
    If it's thicker, we had to take a thicker cloth.
    OK.
    And we would say--
    I would say on every book--
    the book had on both side before you want to glue it up
    had the sheet sewed together with the book.
    When we saw the book--
    Yeah.
    --we saw a blank sheet--
    OK.
    --on both side.
    OK.
    And then we would take a brush--
    OK.
    --or a glue.
    A modern machine today, they have a machine for it
    in the big cities.
    OK.
    But my aunt didn't have that.
    She had a hand one, hand, and I had to [INAUDIBLE] each book.
    OK.
    The paper on both sides.
    So that's become part of the cover?
    Huh?
    The paper becomes part of the cover?
    Part of the cover of the book.
    OK.
    OK.
    So when we glued it on, we glued it on--
    we glued it on both side.
    OK.
    It was cloth.
    It was strong enough that wherever
    we finished gluing the cloth, it would stick it together
    to the cover, depending how big the book is.
    OK.
    That's the size cloth I did.
    And they became automatically a book.
    And so did you do the process--
    There was a press.
    OK.
    There was a press.
    She would press every book.
    OK.
    After smearing--
    Yeah.
    --after gluing.
    Yeah.
    This way, this--
    [MUTTERS] I forgot already.
    I going to know from you.
    Whether you glued both side--
    Yeah.
    A ready-made cover was waiting for that book--
    OK.
    --according to the size.
    And stick in the book.
    All right.
    And sticking in the book, she already
    is covered from both side.
    The size in the book--
    Right.
    Whatever you need, you put together--
    stick in the book in the cover.
    OK.
    And we glue down before.
    Right.
    And we put it in a press on a metal steel bread.
    Turn around and squeeze it very hard.
    It would stay there maybe 10, 5 hours.
    Oh wow.
    Not-- less.
    I didn't say it right.
    OK.
    But--
    I would say average by a half hour.
    OK.
    You would press.
    You already smeared the book with the brush.
    OK.
    To stick in the book.
    In the book-- OK, in the cover.
    To the cover.
    And you press-- it comes out press, the heavy press.
    You turn the press metal half hour.
    And first of all, she makes very neat, very
    nice, straightened out with the book together.
    OK.
    And this way it would stay a half hour.
    OK.
    And take it out from the press, and it's
    a book, a ready-made book.
    You could do anything you want.
    How cool.
    And that will hold the book with the book cover.
    What a wonderful-- what a wonderful process.
    I mean, what a wonderful business to make a book.
    Yeah, yeah.
    I learned this.
    You know.
    And so each book is kind of custom made.
    Each book was--
    Each book is cut.
    If it is same size maybe, sometimes 20 book samples.
    OK.
    We'd cut with a cutter where you were able--
    a paper cutter, you call it.
    OK.
    And that paper you would take the cut of the size.
    Mhm.
    You were a cutting machine, which was--
    You had a cutting machine.
    Yeah.
    A cutting machine and that was cut to the size
    in the very beginning.
    And we have the supply, like I said.
    You put it in then on the cover, and you
    had to watch to put the size of both sides should they fit.
    And turn-- turn with the press.
    That would press it down.
    And was very strong, and that will squeeze out the glue,
    which is on both sides.
    All the bubbles might--
    All the bubbles.
    Bubbles.
    Yeah.
    All the bubbles.
    OK.
    Don't tell nobody.
    I won't.
    I won't.
    [LAUGHS] It's a trade secret.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    So did you-- what kind of books did you get?
    I mean was it all one kind of books, or was it different--
    All books.
    Like I said before, she works for the city--
    City.
    OK.
    Would take blue sheets sewn together.
    OK.
    And had to make size in the cover.
    The cover according to thickness.
    Right.
    According to the size.
    And you made it like I said before.
    But you had to glue by hand each book on both side papers.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And--
    Fit it in.
    Fit in the book.
    Did you ever look at the content of the books
    as to what you were--
    what you were making a book out of?
    What the subject matter was?
    That happened a lot of times.
    Yeah?
    But this one, what I'm talking about was blank before.
    Was not written, was not used.
    Nothing.
    It came from the printer.
    Really?
    From the printer.
    Then the government would write in it, names, and all the
    [INAUDIBLE].
    Oh, I see.
    So these were like ledgers.
    A ledger, yes.
    Something like.
    You were making things like that.
    And that was a good job because you get it from the government.
    Of course.
    Of course.
    So this is the sort of product that you could
    have many different uses for.
    It wasn't just a book to read.
    No, no.
    It was a--
    Then people would came in to buy-- whatever you call it,
    to--
    Order books or to order something?
    They would come into 10 books or five books,
    sometimes individual people would come and say, Miss,
    would you bind me that book?
    Could you-- so whatever was the prize, a surprise.
    OK.
    But sometimes people came in with 10 books.
    The books were already old.
    Yeah.
    They used it.
    It was written there, whatever, the printer, whatever.
    Of course, we want--
    you could buy a book, a reading book, a library book.
    Oh yeah.
    Like a library book.
    She had a li--
    10, 15 library books.
    And that was already used.
    Yeah, yeah.
    And she'd want to get the old book.
    She want to try to get out of it a new book.
    So to repair it?
    Repair it.
    Yeah.
    To repair it.
    OK.
    But the main living was--
    That government contract.
    Government contract.
    Yeah.
    You said that she came to your father
    when the Germans had already come into Romania.
    Yeah.
    So that meant that the three years--
    He bent probably a little bit.
    I didn't ask my father's--
    his thinking or deciding.
    But make believe that he let me go.
    He looked away.
    Let's put it this way.
    OK.
    He looked away.
    And he liked my idea probably.
    I wouldn't ask my father maybe he had a few dollars.
    You know what I mean?
    Yeah.
    So did you send whatever you earned back to your home?
    Back.
    OK.
    Back.
    Did you visit your family during this time?
    I wish it.
    I think once.
    Sorry.
    I did visit, yeah.
    Excuse me.
    You did visit?
    Yeah?
    I did visit, but he wasn't so--
    he still didn't agree with me.
    Yeah.
    But there was a diplomacy.
    OK.
    So he wasn't angry with you?
    Huh?
    He wasn't angry with you?
    I hope so.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    It was-- I mean it was-- you were doing it out
    of a good heart.
    You wanted to help him.
    But you were saying that there was already
    a German occupation in Romania.
    In Romania, yeah.
    Did that affect your aunt's business?
    Well, of course.
    OK.
    Right away, in a couple of days we got a letter
    that "sorry, we can't help you.
    Can't give you the job."
    From the government?
    From the government.
    Yeah.
    Oh, yeah.
    [TSK] That became very to problems-- big problems.
    OK.
    Life changed, everything.
    Tell me how it changed.
    Not only me.
    Yeah.
    Not-- for the whole city.
    It took away a lot of--
    a lot of other things.
    Even my father wasn't able to work.
    I don't like to talk--
    OK.
    We won't talk about that.
    We'll talk about other things.
    Two-- what was it?
    Two months.
    Mhm.
    Two months I don't speak--
    I already forgot.
    Six, eight months.
    OK.
    They called in my father, slave work.
    This is what they started.
    They didn't care if he had 11 children.
    Here, if somebody called from the government,
    he has a nice wage, get a nice check every month.
    Yeah.
    They give-- they feed the family.
    It was terrible.
    Was he moved to a different place?
    Or did he stay in the same place?
    I stayed there in the last minute.
    OK.
    Like I said, they didn't assist.
    Didn't-- they didn't have nothing but 11 children.
    Of course.
    German law.
    I went-- I never did it in my life.
    Going to ask money from people.
    I'm ashamed to say.
    I did it.
    I never did it, but I was already a big boy.
    I don't know what--
    I know what happened.
    They called in my father, like I said--
    Yeah.
    --to slave work.
    And they took him away to a different town.
    OK.
    And finally, I find out where he is.
    I went to my rabbi, where I was at yeshiva before.
    OK.
    And I said to him, maybe he could--
    Help?
    Help me with a paper to write my situation.
    I have help-- my father sending a pekel every week,
    every month.
    Maybe they let me send.
    I don't know.
    I didn't know the Germans wouldn't let you do it.
    But anyway, in my stupid head, I asked myself
    I do something, which I didn't do in my life.
    He gave me a piece of paper.
    Listen, this boy is very troubled.
    11 children with him.
    My brother they called in also.
    Yeah.
    Forced work.
    Oh, so they took your brother too.
    My brother, they called him because he was that age--
    Yeah.
    --already.
    And of course, my fa--
    but he was Hungarian army and a German army.
    They mixed both.
    And at least, I know he make--
    he survived because they give him
    to eat the very beginning when the Hungarians and the Germans
    worked together.
    But probably the government took care of them.
    But anyway, my father, they called--
    they wouldn't have nothing, help, nothing
    for my parent's children.
    And I know this hurts.
    Big, big family at home.
    And they took away the uncle, my father should live in place.
    He was not allowed to work anymore even if he had papers.
    Yeah.
    But that time, he wasn't able to work because they called him
    with no excuse how he going to survive the family.
    Right.
    Or something.
    They were not interested at all.
    And good enough, I went to--
    I went to strange people, mainly Jewish people.
    I wasn't able to talk because--
    It was so hard.
    Yeah, hard.
    And I put down the paper on the table.
    They was-- I went to rich people.
    Rich, at that time they had money.
    But in a couple days they took away from them the money.
    They didn't know it.
    Nobody know it.
    Yeah.
    Maybe it would-- what could you do?
    I don't know.
    What you were able to do.
    They did it to 11 countries.
    Yeah.
    Jewish people.
    I don't have to tell you.
    And anyway, I put down the-- wherever I went.
    I wasn't able to speak to them.
    And the rabbi wrote, "Please help him,
    because he's in a bad situation, the kid.
    And he wants to have either for the children,
    either for the family."
    So did people give some money?
    Some people gave.
    What happened?
    Did you take-- were you--
    did you do this in the town you were born
    or in the town that you lived in with your aunt?
    I did it--
    I did it in the town where I was born.
    OK.
    That's correct.
    And there were very rich people there.
    It was a gold mine there.
    Ah.
    It was a gold mine, and it was a lot of lawyers--
    OK.
    Engineers.
    And I went there.
    He send me to a place.
    Finally, I made a package.
    OK.
    I made a nice package.
    And I-- I had to find out the traveling to my father--
    should leave in peace--
    to give him the package.
    I went there.
    Yeah.
    I was away from my town.
    And finally, I arrive there with the bus.
    Yeah.
    And I find--
    I ask people do you know this name.
    Samuel Weiss.
    Samuel Weiss.
    I cried.
    Finally, they showed me where he is.
    And I-- he did labor work, but anyway, finally I arrive there.
    It was very terrible.
    What did you see?
    Nothing.
    I saw my father working, slave work.
    He says-- I showed.
    I have a package for you.
    He says-- which was not true--
    he said, "don't give it to me.
    Go-- go back to the town, where you live.
    Give it for your mother."
    Aw.
    "She loves you.
    She should give it to the children."
    [SOBS] My father--
    and I-- I walked to his place.
    I-- thank you.
    I couldn't talk to him.
    He laughed in my face.
    He said, "how are you-- what are you doing here?"
    I couldn't tell him that I bought
    a package in the beginning, that he should use it.
    So he said to me, laughing.
    "I have been off here."
    Which I can tell you, my father, the words is not true.
    Yeah.
    But he didn't-- they didn't-- they handle it very bad,
    the Germans.
    They have different laws.
    I says, I brought you some old suits.
    Half new, half old.
    I brought them.
    I wasn't able to talk but to put it down.
    In the package was some old suits--
    Old suits and foods.
    And food.
    Food.
    OK.
    But I couldn't tell the words from my father.
    I showed him what I have here.
    So he says, "why don't you just bring it to your mother?"
    He was laughing.
    He was laughing.
    [SNIFFLES] He says, "I have enough.
    I don't need it."
    It was not true.
    Yeah.
    I could tell my father, it's not true.
    Did he look very different from when you had last seen him?
    No.
    No.
    OK.
    No.
    So he said, "Bring it to your mother."
    I picked the package.
    I put it back in my bag.
    I started crying.
    Please take it.
    He said no and was laughing.
    Do you think he was laughing at me?
    No.
    He was doing it to try to make it easier for you.
    He says, "I have enough.
    They give me enough.
    Give me enough."
    You don't have no idea what they--
    but they handle all these people with slavery work.
    And not to give for the family a penny.
    Yeah.
    My parents were already poor.
    Finally, I struggled until I took back.
    I told my mother, should be in peace.
    Thought he didn't want to take the merchandise.
    Do me a favor.
    Listen to your father.
    He wants you should eat it.
    You should give the children.
    Do me a favor.
    Keep the promise.
    I promised my father I'm going to do it.
    And this I arrived.
    That was almost a year, slavery work.
    That he was doing?
    That he was doing.
    Nothing.
    Nothing, like I said, help.
    Just probably they gave food to eat
    so you're able to work there.
    That's right.
    That's right.
    And finally, I went back.
    What was it?
    You went back to your mother, and you gave her the package.
    I gave her package.
    Package.
    She took it.
    All right.
    Thank you.
    Your father wants--
    I have no idea how she survived.
    I don't ask.
    This was not normal how she survived.
    And all right.
    So did you go back then to your aunt's house?
    To your-- after you gave the package--
    I went back to--
    You went to the--
    to your aunt.
    --my aunt.
    Yeah.
    I didn't tell her.
    I only ask her permission.
    I want to go away for a couple big days.
    Yeah.
    And this is what happened.
    Oh, it was the worst.
    Did they release your father?
    Huh?
    Was your father ever released?
    Was he ever let go from this labor?
    Yes.
    They let him go because within one week they
    had to deport people with whole families.
    Everybody in the city.
    So they--
    He had to come home because he had to take care
    of his family, help packing.
    Everybody could pack a little package.
    Nothing, nothing but food or something, a little package.
    But you're not allowed to take more to--
    Do they tell them where they were going?
    To dress.
    No, no.
    I don't know how we were so stupid.
    But like I said, before we wouldn't-- we never learned how
    to fight, how to kill, how to--
    and they went like shaved sheep.
    Yeah.
    Wherever-- I don't know what they did to them.
    I have an idea what they did.
    I don't want to talk about.
    Do you know where they--
    you were with your aunt.
    And they took the whole family then?
    The whole family.
    And leave everything there.
    And do you know where they were taken?
    Who would tell them?
    They wouldn't tell them.
    They-- they put you in a transport--
    Yeah.
    --in a wagon, a train wagon.
    How do you call it?
    Cattle car, usually a cattle car.
    Cattle car.
    And they put in, my goodness--
    there was-- and that train, whatever you call it,
    was placed maybe for a 100 people.
    Yeah.
    For-- for 100--
    I meant 50--
    Yeah.
    --people place to sit down tight.
    Yeah.
    And they put in over 100 people in that train.
    They took them.
    Then they took them to Auschwitz.
    You found out later?
    I went through the same thing, but in a different way
    by my aunt.
    I see.
    Excuse me just for a second.
    So--
    So they-- your father came back?
    They took the whole--
    My father came back.
    And you know, everybody was happy.
    And finally, within one week, became law,
    everybody in the family is going.
    Where you going?
    What you're doing?
    You don't-- like I said, they took that wagon.
    And those people-- all those people were worried that
    the wagon--
    they was dying.
    We was half dead already when they arrived at Auschwitz.
    They have some pregnant woman, so this was born their babies
    in the wagon.
    And after done that, they died.
    But I don't like to talk about those--
    [SNIFFLES]
    These are things you heard about later and you
    yourself went through later?
    Yeah, true.
    Yeah.
    I think-- is everything here?
    No.
    Not yet.
    OK.
    But you can break if you want.
    No, no, no.
    You-- when did you find out your family was taken?
    Because you were far away.
    You with your aunt.
    Well, I have a family follow happiness
    to what happened to me.
    After two weeks, when I went through with it,
    when I said I shipped--
    I brought some merchandise back--
    Right.
    --to my other parents--
    Yeah.
    I already see what's going on.
    Uh-huh.
    In one week, I said to myself, I was not
    allowed to go anymore in the train, no Jews.
    No Jews, only if they have some papers.
    OK.
    But they wouldn't give papers for nobody.
    Just for the world.
    Yeah.
    For the country.
    To show that I was not supposed to travel in the train--
    Right.
    --as a Jew.
    Right.
    And if I did, I had to travel with a yellow band--
    OK.
    --and have a paper who gave me permission to--
    To go.
    --go to the city.
    Right.
    I decided I must see my parents before they go.
    I didn't have idea if they going or not, but I find out later.
    I have to go and see them.
    I don't know what's going to happen with them.
    Mhm.
    So you went on the train?
    I went in the train.
    I figured if they catch me they shoot me.
    Fine.
    Maybe it's going to--
    I'm lucky enough, I go off to my parents.
    OK.
    God give me-- God helped me at that time.
    OK.
    But anyway, I change my suit, my cap.
    I went in a plain cap as a non-Jew.
    What's the difference?
    At least, I thought it's going to work.
    I tried everything.
    If it's not going to work, what could I do?
    Mhm.
    But good enough.
    I went to the city of Satmar.
    Uh-huh.
    I bought a ticket.
    When I bought the ticket, they didn't ask me.
    There was not their construction--
    or instruction, whatever you call it.
    I buy the ticket.
    They finally-- finally they gave me the ticket, and I sit--
    I'm sitting in the train.
    What's going to happen is going to happen.
    I know already because they took other people already
    in other cities.
    What's the difference?
    And I figure I must see my parents
    before they go someplace.
    And this is what happen.
    Did you go?
    Did you see them?
    I go.
    I took a chance.
    I tell my aunt, I have to go to see my parents.
    She says, you think you could make it?
    I says, if I'm here I don't make it.
    Maybe I'll-- I'm lucky enough.
    Mhm.
    I-- that was very bad.
    I go back to my town already.
    I am already--
    I didn't have anything in my body, afraidness.
    I'm going.
    What could happen?
    Finally, I arrived.
    If you would see that, my mother started crying.
    How could you go?
    How could you come here?
    She was very happy that I'm here,
    but she asks me how did you--
    how did get to come such a couple miles.
    Nobody asked you?
    I said this just happens.
    I bought a ticket.
    And I-- I had a--
    A cap?
    Cap.
    Make-believe I'm Jewish-- not Jewish.
    Yeah.
    And I said, I'm here.
    My mother-- I want to say to hello.
    I didn't want to tell her.
    She know what-- what's going to happen with them.
    So I didn't want to tell her that I know it.
    So I said--
    I decided that I find bad news.
    They take away people.
    I don't know what's going to happen with you.
    I figured myself, what could they do?
    They going to shoot me or what?
    Yeah, yeah.
    I have to say goodbye.
    And I was crying and crying.
    My mother says, "Don't worry.
    It'll be all right."
    I says, "I come to the conclusion
    that it's not going to be all right.
    Get ready for anything you could do."
    Finally, I couldn't stay there, because meantime I had a--
    Return ticket or something?
    Not a return ticket.
    I had-- [INAUDIBLE] from the government into the army.
    Oh, you had a letter from the government into the army?
    Not a-- yeah.
    OK.
    A call-in.
    All right.
    To draft you.
    Draft me.
    And they told me that what's waiting for me.
    They not going to give me any more army suits.
    And they gonna-- it was a group.
    OK.
    And they going to put us in a camp.
    From there I go to a particular city.
    And maybe if you're lucky enough,
    the Germans are going to take over or not.
    We can't tell you now.
    So this is from the Hungarians or from the Romanians?
    Hungarian-- Romanian, Romanian.
    From the Romanian.
    Romanian.
    So there was a letter at your parents' home for you
    that you have to report--
    you're going to be in the army, and they're
    going to put you in a camp?
    This is-- I understand that correctly?
    Not-- they don't write they're going to put you in the camp.
    Oh, but they just write you have--
    But you have to go--
    you have to go to the army, and they put you
    in civilian clothes.
    Ah.
    No more army clothes.
    So did you return to your aunt?
    Or did you go where the letter told you to go?
    Well, I had still seven, eight days to go there.
    But anyway, here I am still home.
    Yeah.
    And my mother tells me--
    my mother tells me that your father is coming home.
    She still didn't let up hope.
    They had a call-in another 10 days.
    And they wrote a letter--
    OK.
    --in German and in Hungarian that you can't take nothing
    with you.
    OK.
    You only come with--
    everybody with two shirts, wearing one shirt.
    And they take-- they didn't take--
    they didn't tell you where they take you.
    Right.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    So were you there when your parents left their home?
    Wait a minute.
    So no.
    OK.
    Because I had to go--
    I had to go to register in the army.
    And I-- and I wonder should I leave in peace.
    She took me couple house--
    maybe 10, 3 house--
    10 or 15 houses.
    She came with me to say goodbye.
    Because I had to go back.
    And she says to me--
    well, she came along with me because she
    didn't know that I am--
    why should I tell her more worries
    that I have not a legal paper.
    I told her something [INAUDIBLE]..
    I have to register in the army.
    Uh-huh.
    I didn't want to tell her I didn't come to her much legal.
    Oh.
    OK.
    And-- but that time you lived in a--
    Excuse me just for a second.
    Got it?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I'm going to run out of battery pretty soon.
    OK.
    So you tell me when that happens.
    It says like another 20 minutes.
    Oh, OK.
    We'll be fine.