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Oral history interview with Robert "Roy" Budway

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2020.202.1 | RG Number: RG-50.030.1084

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    Oral history interview with Robert "Roy" Budway
    Transcript
    This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    interview with Mr. Robert Budway on August 31, 2020.
    And Mr. Budway is in Washington, DC.
    I, the interviewer, Ina Navazelskis,
    am in Falls Church, Virginia.
    The interview is being conducted via telephone,
    and it is an audio recording.
    Mr. Budway, first of all, thank you
    very much for agreeing to speak with us today.
    And I am going to ask--
    I'm going to start our interview with the most basic questions,
    and we go from there, OK?
    Yes.
    OK.
    All right.
    So can you tell me what is the date of your birth?
    I was born in August 2, 1928 in Oak Park, Illinois.
    That is a part of Chicago city.
    Oh, so August 2, 1928.
    And that was one of my questions, where were you born?
    So you were born in Oak Park, Illinois.
    Yes.
    And what was your name at birth?
    My name was first Robert.
    And I have initial Roy after my father.
    And our last name, of course, is Budway.
    Budway.
    So tell me-- I mean, we're going to be talking about
    Czechoslovakia and the years that you spent
    in Czechoslovakia growing up and the war years--
    how is it that you came to be born in Chicago?
    My mother was at that time--
    she was not an immigrant.
    She had lots of relatives there, and she was not
    the only person from the relatives in Czech
    who were visiting United States.
    Their relatives brought three girls on--
    they were visiting Czechoslovakia, obviously
    after First World War.
    And they find these two brothers and sisters and had children.
    And my grandparents were Czech, and they
    have only one daughter.
    So for me, when I grew up, it was a puzzle,
    why would they let my mother go alone
    to Chicago, the United States.
    But it was meant only temporary.
    But mother did like that and was very independent woman.
    And she married my father, whose name was William Roy Budway.
    And he was a native of Canada, Ontario.
    And did he have any Czech background at all?
    My Czech background comes from the fact
    that the family, the young family of my parents,
    obviously was the victim of the economic downfall of which
    was called Depression.
    And my father was-- they were both young,
    and they were not financially able to really carry on
    with young family.
    I was only one year old when the crash
    spilled loose in the United States
    and everywhere in the world.
    So I was only one year old when that happened.
    And I understand that my father kept looking for work.
    And the more he kept looking, more he
    was leaving out of Chicago, west.
    And my mother, eventually, respond to her parents
    in Czechoslovakia, pick up the boy, and come home.
    So I did appear, in what was mother's home, about in 1932.
    I wasn't four years old.
    OK, but--
    I--
    --we want to go back a little bit.
    Your father, you say he is from Ontario.
    But was he-- did his ethnic background,
    was that also Czech, or was he--
    No, no.
    No.
    I believe the family was actually in Ottawa, Ontario.
    OK.
    And they must have been there a couple of generations already.
    Why they'd emigrate suddenly to United States, I don't know.
    But I know that my father was you born there.
    And the family moved from Canada slowly to New York State
    into Illinois.
    And that is where my mother met my father.
    That's where they married and began family.
    And I was the only child of that family.
    And did you ever know your father?
    Yes, I have learned to know much more, almost 40 years later,
    who he was.
    He introduced himself and call himself.
    And there was a reason how it happened.
    Because I had unfortunately had a very sad episode
    about visiting Czechoslovakia during the communist regime.
    And I was apprehended as somebody
    who was charged with espionage and with other acts
    against the communist regime.
    And I was tried on charges espionage.
    And case received quite a bit of publicity,
    not only in Europe but actually in the United States.
    And that's how my father make connection
    that this person is me.
    He's strong.
    And that's how I reconnect with my family
    again here in the United States.
    That's amazing.
    So that means that this took place in the Cold War years
    when you were arrested.
    And it's outside of what we are going to talk about today.
    But this is an answer to my question about
    did you know anything about your father.
    And so if I understand what you're saying properly
    is that sometime in during the post-war years,
    you visited Czechoslovakia, you were arrested,
    you were charged with espionage.
    The case received a lot of publicity,
    not only in Czechoslovakia but in the West.
    Your father saw this, learned of it,
    and made the connection that this is his son who
    is arrested in this way.
    Is this correct?
    Am I understanding it properly.
    That is correct.
    OK.
    The only thing I can add, besides charge of espionage,
    I was also charged with subversion.
    Oh my, OK.
    And just to let us know, at this point,
    what year did this happen?
    This happened 1962.
    I had visited the country before, 1957, '59, and 1962.
    I was very sure of myself that I'd conduct myself properly
    and that I'm safe.
    But I obviously make a mistake.
    Hmm, well, perhaps towards the end of our interview
    we will talk about this.
    But right now, I'm going to go back to your childhood.
    And so back to when your family, that
    is your mother and your father split.
    Yes.
    Do you have any memories of your father
    when you were still a young boy, a toddler,
    about three years old when you left for Czechoslovakia?
    No, I don't.
    I suddenly simply wake up one day,
    and I was in a small farmhouse in small village
    in Western part of the country.
    It was called, itself, Czechoslovakia.
    And I don't remember anything my connection with Chicago,
    the place of my birth and anything,
    how did I get into Czechoslovakia,
    and how did I find myself in small village,
    which was called Těchonice.
    Těchonice.
    And so in other words, you have no early memories
    of Chicago at all.
    No, I don't.
    OK.
    And from what you understood later,
    was your parents split one of--
    did they split from one another or was it
    simply a case that your father went looking for work
    or did he abandon the family or did your mother
    give in to pressure from her own parents?
    What happened?
    I believe-- I believe that it was inevitable.
    They didn't serve.
    And I finally met my father.
    Whatever he say to me, it's very much same
    what my mother did say.
    They were young, and they simply didn't
    have a chance in the situation, which economically
    was getting worse and worse.
    She hold on for a couple of years, as it's clear.
    Because when the economic crash came, I was hardly a year old.
    And when I find myself with her traveling
    without remembering anything, I was close to be four.
    So I still have some knowledge of some baby English.
    Because my Czech grandmother demonstrated many years
    later that she still remember that they
    tried to communicate with me, and mother
    taught her a few English words.
    But that I don't remember.
    That I only heard from my grandmother.
    OK.
    So your first memories really start when you are in the small
    town or small village of Těchonice.
    Is this how you say it?
    Yes, that is correct.
    It is in the region at that time--
    the region was Klatovy.
    Klatovy was what we would compare to county capital.
    But at that time, that was far away from the little village
    of Těchonice.
    It goes up Western part of a country.
    Yeah, I've looked on the map, and it
    looks like it's close to the Southwestern part.
    In other words, not far from the border of Bavaria in Germany.
    And if you go further South and you'd come to Austria.
    Would this be correct?
    Yes.
    OK.
    That is correct.
    But of course, for me at that particular time,
    Bavaria was far away place.
    Of course.
    My outlook for a number of years was just the village
    of Těchonice around a cluster of few villages,
    because Těchonice was a parish for these other villages.
    Ah.
    And that-- the other villages were called Velenovy,
    Strážovice, Neprochovy, Žďár.
    Velenovy will become important, because I will have something
    to say about my friend, Václav Florian.
    OK.
    So can you spell Těchonice so that in the future people would
    know specifically?
    They would be able to accurately find it on the map.
    How do you spell Těchonice?
    OK, I will try.
    Let me see.
    Start with T-E-C-H-O-V-I-C-E. And, of course,
    on the second letter after T, there is a little comma.
    So it's pronounced, Těchonice.
    OK, I have something that has T-E-C-H-O-N-I-C-E, Těchonice,
    not with a V. Which would be--
    and it looks like it's not so far from this Klatovy
    that you mentioned.
    Mm-hmm.
    Is this the--
    I would not-- there are, of course, similar words.
    There are similar places, like [INAUDIBLE]..
    But that would be near Klatovy.
    But Těchonice is a unique place, because I did not find any
    other Těchonice in entire country.
    OK, OK.
    Tell me a little bit what it looked like.
    All right, Těchonice had about 52 families.
    So the population those days was roughly always between 200,
    250 souls living.
    And it was unique to me that inspired
    that in was very homogeneous.
    Těchonice did have, actually in its pool house,
    a family from Germany.
    They came from Munich.
    And however, the parents of that family
    spoke nothing but German and never really mastered much
    of any skill to communicate with anybody but in German.
    Their children spoke Czech very well,
    and I was friendly with them.
    There were also two families from Austria, from Vienna
    mostly.
    They must have been coming into village
    after the war, which Vienna, of course,
    was reduced to a small--
    economically to a small [INAUDIBLE]
    for people like that.
    So they went there.
    And then there was a one family, which had--
    sometimes certain generations would call them [NON-ENGLISH],,
    That was I understand Jewish family.
    However, I knew that house as [NON-ENGLISH],,
    because that was later on clear to me that there was an older
    man, and he was grandfather of my friend whose name was Václav
    and nickname was [? Véna. ?]
    And he apparently was son of his mother.
    Her name was Julia.
    And father's name was Václav.
    And he came from village of Velenovy.
    That I didn't know then.
    Because he had actually--
    his parents were living in Velenovy.
    That will become important point to reference
    later on in my story about this family.
    OK.
    So right now, thank you.
    But for right now, what we're doing is
    we're trying to get the context.
    So the context, if I understand it so far,
    is Těchonice has about 250 plus people living in it.
    And--
    That is--
    Correct?
    That is correct then.
    Then, at that time--
    at that time when you were growing--
    At that time.
    --up there in the '30s.
    And that it was a rather homogeneous place.
    There was one young German--
    well, there was a German family there.
    And the children spoke Czech but the parents only German.
    And then there were two families from Austria who were there.
    And then there was the two families who were Jewish.
    Is that correct?
    Only one family.
    Only one family that was Jewish?
    I'm trying to explain that there were in the village people who
    would refer to this Jewish family when it was,
    I believe already, in 19th century known as Schwartz.
    Schwartz.
    You mean like the word S-C-H-W-A-R--
    And that family apparently have only one daughter.
    Her name was Julia.
    And she married outsider, Václav Florian.
    The outsider was from village of Velenovy And there were younger
    generations like me, we refer to the house always [NON-ENGLISH],,
    while the older people were calling them [NON-ENGLISH]..
    I see, OK.
    So the daughter's maiden name--
    It's the same family.
    Yeah.
    The daughter's maiden name was Schwartz.
    She married someone named Florian.
    And they had a child who was your friend.
    Yes, he also have a brother, younger brother,
    whose name was Slava.
    His Czech's name Slava.
    He was about three years younger.
    But I was very attached and very friend for much of our growing
    up.
    With Véna or Václav.
    And there was a reason for it.
    We did not know how it happened, but we could trace it
    eventually, as we were growing older why we were still
    close to make us friends.
    Well, what was-- what kind of conclusion did you come to?
    Because of her [INAUDIBLE] mother's name,
    were just simply called, Jula.
    And I found out that my mother and Jula were the same age
    and were friends in school, apparently very close friends.
    I do have a diary, which my mother kept.
    And there are three entries from Jula Schwartz.
    And they did have a small grocery store.
    And therefore, when my mother came back
    from the United States, somehow along, her friend Jula
    have two boys.
    And my mother had one.
    And I was very close--
    I was only one year apart from Jula's boys Václav.
    And so I already come as a kid very close [INAUDIBLE] when I
    went to--
    when mother went to shopping, which
    was rarely, into the house of this grocery store, which
    was run by her friend Jula, whose name no longer was
    Schwartz because she married Florian.
    Got it, got it.
    So let's go on describing other parts of Těchonice.
    So the rest of-- you say that this was a place where there
    was a parish, which means there was a church,
    at least one church in Těchonice.
    Was that correct?
    Yes.
    And was it a Catholic church?
    Yeah, it was a Catholic church, yes.
    And does that mean that most of the people
    who lived there, aside from the Jewish family, were Catholics?
    Yes, and particularly my friend, Florian, house resident
    right next to the church.
    Oh, I see, I see.
    And was that in the center of town,
    in the center of Těchonice.
    I beg your pardon.
    I did not hear that.
    Was that in the center of the village of Těchonice,
    the church?
    I did not understand.
    OK, can you hear me better now?
    Yes.
    OK.
    I was asking whether or not-- where
    the church was located in town.
    That is our churches were located in the center.
    That also play important part, because my house was located,
    or my home at that particular time,
    on the other side of the village.
    And as a five- or six-year-old kid,
    it was already adventure to walk from one end of the village
    with mother or without mother to the house of my friend,
    Václav Florian.
    OK.
    Describe for me, a little bit the village, itself.
    Did it have-- did it have paved roads?
    No, it wasn't very--
    It was one of those many, many villages in the Western part
    of a country.
    It's economic dependent on agriculture.
    There were a few tradesmen, and none of them
    could afford to live on trade alone.
    They all had to have a small land to grow food.
    And I believe the Schwartz were exactly
    in the same situation like everybody else.
    Some may have a larger holding in that village,
    because the family from which my grandfather came out
    was a large owner of--
    OK.
    The only back why so many of his brothers and sister
    ended in Chicago, apparently before First World War
    is that it was a large family.
    My grandfather comes from family of 10.
    And five of them immigrate to Chicago
    well before First World War, possibly already even
    at the end of 19th century.
    OK, that explains a lot.
    That explains a lot why there would be
    so many relatives in Chicago.
    Yes.
    So what was your grandfather's name?
    In other words, what was your mother's maiden name?
    It was-- my mother's name was maiden name, Marie Sebesta.
    And I will spell the Sebesta, S-E-B-E-S-T-A. And of course,
    S would have little hook, again.
    So it will be pronounced, Sebesta.
    Sebesta.
    And so your grandfather's name was Sebest?
    Sebesta.
    Sebesta.
    And his first name was František, which means, Frank.
    OK.
    And was he from the same village or from someplace else?
    No, his family already probably lived
    in village more than couple of generations.
    I do trace these five generations back.
    Wow, that's a long time to be able to trace back
    five generations.
    That brings you into the 17th century.
    Yes.
    So they were there for a long time.
    They were, I believe, the second largest land owners
    in the village, that family.
    But of course, because having so many children,
    five went to America, and the rest of them
    did have to have about three.
    My grandfather, his brother, and his sister--
    two brothers-- they all have a little holding
    from the large estate, which was, of course,
    diminished through best [INAUDIBLE] existence.
    So it meant that the children split
    the large estate between them.
    Yes.
    And about how many hectares did your grandfather have?
    I believe anything between five or six.
    That's not a lot.
    You know that?
    No.
    Yeah.
    Was he able to feed the family on five or six hectares
    of land?
    He did not have a large family.
    He come from large family, but his only daughter
    was my mother.
    OK.
    And he had no sons?
    Yeah.
    And he did manage very well.
    Somehow along everyone managed.
    I had the impression of my childhood
    that everything was fine.
    There may have been one or two families which definitely
    had a difficult time.
    And one was the German family.
    You mentioned that, yeah.
    Because it remains still a question and puzzle to me
    why weren't they suddenly there.
    They must have gone shortly before my arrival there.
    Mm-hmm.
    OK, so they hadn't been in that area.
    Now the town, Těchonice, was it part of what we know
    as the Sudetenland?
    No.
    No, this was the only German family.
    I believe nobody later on when I think of German invasion
    and occupation of a country.
    I believe 99% of people never come
    in contact with any Germans.
    OK, OK.
    So let's go back now about village life
    and how your grandfather and grandmother lived.
    Can you tell me what they grew on the five or six hectares
    that they had?
    The biggest crop, which was fast money, was, of course, potatoes
    and of course, sugar beets was also biggest crop.
    But they grow mostly wheat.
    And livestock, of course, was also very important.
    But it was never but maybe four cows and some few pigs
    and chickens and geese.
    And that was exactly practically the case of everyone
    who lived there.
    OK.
    And what kind of home did you have?
    Would you repeat that?
    What kind of home did you have?
    In other words, can you describe the house that you grew up in?
    I must admit that I felt very privileged.
    The house was at the edge of the village near West
    of [INAUDIBLE].
    And it was rather large for many other houses there.
    I lately find out that originally it
    wasn't meant to be some kind of inn, in Czech called "hospoda".
    Therefore, it has a large four rooms, which was unusual.
    Aha, OK.
    And did--
    And it has [? well ?] located at the beginning of the village.
    So it has a number of advantage.
    I felt very good.
    And there were a number of families nearby.
    And everyone had [? quite a bit of ?] children.
    So obviously I did have many friends immediately as a child.
    And I definitely was very quickly at home there.
    The only thing what set me out different in the village
    was my name.
    And that was up when--
    that was what quickly become a little bit
    uncomfortable for me.
    Because my mother had a habit to use my nickname
    and call me in English, Bobbie.
    And I did not like the name.
    [LAUGHING]
    And that set me immediately apart in school.
    And at the beginning, of course, Czech version of Bobbie
    was Bobik.
    So I was known as Bobik, even to my good friend, Veca Florian.
    He called me Bobik, and I called him Veca.
    OK, how do I spell both nicknames?
    Bobik?
    Mhm.
    B-O-B-I-K. And I have a comma on, so it was sort of "Bobeek."
    And I didn't like it, because sometimes some little dogs
    were called the same way.
    Oh.
    And I begged my mother not to call me that way.
    But she did have some difficulty to remember.
    [LAUGHING] And your friend Florian's
    nickname, how do we spell that?
    Veca, it was just there too many Vecas, too many Václav.
    So it was a usual name that was common,
    and he had no difficulty with his nickname.
    It was called, V-E-C-A.
    Veca.
    And I have no problem when he called me Bobik,
    because I know how we meant it.
    Yeah, that makes a difference to a child.
    Yes.
    OK, so did your grandfather--
    was he an active farmer as you were growing up?
    He was one of those wonderful grandfathers,
    which a great many literary people write
    about grandfathers.
    He was definitely-- my grandparents, both of them,
    were loving and caring people.
    And they were very happy having somebody in the house.
    Because they both come from large family.
    And at the beginning, the purpose
    was what do we do when we get old?
    So obviously, they count on me as somebody
    who eventually will take over.
    They did not say it, but I could feel it already
    from a very early age that I was their little boy who
    was everything to them.
    So in other words--
    So I live in very loving family.
    I never had any--
    I never experienced hunger.
    I've never experienced anyone for anything.
    So I've never experienced any abundance of anything.
    Uh-huh.
    Now, was your mother happy coming back
    to live in her village after having lived in Chicago?
    After living in Chicago, I find very quickly by the age of six
    that she regretted that she left the Chicago.
    Because I was no longer aware that such a place like
    America exists.
    And once in a while she was working hard on the fields
    and it was hot and sweaty, I remember her
    suddenly standing up, looking in the sky,
    and wiping the sweat from her forehead and say,
    "For this, I came back from America."
    And I remember that.
    And that became also something I kept in my mind.
    It's [INAUDIBLE] and great, itself.
    And it was also a problem when I finally
    got arrested, because I was charged,
    not only [? with espionage ?] but that I
    imported fuel rocks, which supposed to have uranium--
    what supposed to have been uranium ore.
    Oh, excuse me.
    This is something that goes much later on in your story.
    And in some ways it's--
    Yes, but I just want you to know more that at about age six,
    I was aware that I was somebody who was outsider.
    OK, that's the important part, that your mother--
    I was aware of being outsider.
    Because even when I went to school, I was aware
    I was outsider, because I was not immediately registered
    in this school.
    There was some problem with my citizenship.
    In what way?
    I believe that I didn't know that time,
    but my uncle, brother of my father,
    was a mayor of the little village.
    Who was he to you?
    He was the brother of your grandfather?
    Yeah, and he was a mayor.
    And I think he's smoothed that situation.
    Because I believe that it was a young country.
    When I went to school, the country was only 15 years old.
    And therefore, it did not have yet
    all these legal requirements with United States
    that's not clear.
    I was not admitted immediately to school,
    because I was not denied education,
    but there was a question that I would have to pay fee.
    Aha, I see.
    Because--
    Because--
    --you were a foreigner.
    --I was not a citizen.
    I see.
    Because you're born in the United States
    and you have US citizenship, then you
    are regarded as a foreigner.
    And foreigners pay fees.
    Was this the--
    Right.
    --understanding of it?
    That is clear.
    That is exactly what the issue was.
    And of course, in that village, that
    was a rather sensation and odd that it would happen.
    Tell me--
    But it did happen, in my case.
    It, obviously, did not happen in the case of the German boy.
    Interesting that it didn't.
    But that's closer to home rather than the United States,
    which is across the ocean.
    So it was some consular issue and some law.
    And of course, director of the school was aware of it.
    Nobody else in the religion would have dreamed about it.
    OK.
    So here's another question about village life
    and what kind of economic development there was there.
    I want to ask about modernization.
    I asked before if the roads were paved.
    Now I want to know was there electricity
    throughout the village?
    Yes.
    The electricity was-- and I remember when the electricity
    came to the village.
    It may have been hardly a year or two later,
    because I was already aware what was going on.
    Because there were a few electricians who
    lived in the house, because our house
    was big, during that time when the electrization was going on.
    So I was just sort of a kid who always
    looking what they were doing.
    So electricity came about 1934 or 1935.
    But running water was already there.
    OK, so you had indoor plumbing?
    Yes, running water was there already.
    The roads were not paved.
    They were all dirt road.
    And it was a typical agrarian type
    of village, a farming village where smell of manure
    and running birds and animals and something so normal
    that we didn't think much about it.
    We have little ditty song about the Těchonice how it look.
    We may have been a little derogatory.
    I remembered it would be difficult to translate it
    in English.
    Because it was all colloquial titles
    to make fun over the village.
    Because it rhymed well with nothing but manure and so on.
    Well, so did the kids make up this song?
    I beg your pardon.
    Who made up this song?
    I think it was kids.
    And it must have been generation before us, because it properly
    passed from kids to kids.
    But otherwise, surprisingly there
    was a cultural life going on there.
    It had its own dynamic.
    It went around the years, periods, you know.
    Spring was, of course, always exciting.
    Because in the spring, there was a village festival.
    The village did have a volunteer fire
    department, which was, of course, consisting
    of nothing much.
    It has a theatrical production, at least
    one production per year or maybe even two during the winter.
    It has a school with three classrooms.
    This is also going to be important
    when I talk about my friend, Florian.
    Because each classroom had two grades.
    Except the last classroom had four grades.
    So obviously it was a challenge for the teacher.
    Of course.
    But all teachers did try to also [INAUDIBLE]
    contribute something, so we children have a play too.
    And of course, we did have two grocery stores.
    One was actually collective done by the priests.
    So it was not competition for a main store or Schwartz store,
    you know.
    And it did have a bakery.
    It had a butcher.
    It had a number of interests in the family from out here.
    We're all either seamstress or tailors.
    And tell me, did it have a cinema?
    No.
    And did it have a library?
    It had a library.
    And I'm well aware of how many books there
    were in that library.
    It has [INAUDIBLE] public lib...
    [NON-ENGLISH] means village library,
    which consists hardly about 50 books.
    OK, OK.
    And it was, again, a volunteer housed
    in the house of one father who I have
    learned to know later in life too, because I
    was desperate to read.
    And after I exhaust the school library, which was also
    hardly 50 books, then I was given a tip, why don't you
    go to see so-and-so.
    They have libraries.
    So I find out yes, it has a library.
    OK, OK.
    But it consists about of 50 books,
    little shelf in a farmhouse.
    So was there anybody who had a radio?
    Yes, I, in fact, make so many [INAUDIBLE]
    about the problem of communication.
    It has about, I believe, about five places
    whom I haven't read.
    And one of those was school director.
    One of them would be the parish priest.
    And I know that two pops would have a radio.
    My friend, Florian, did not have a radio.
    We did not have a radio.
    And a bakery had a radio.
    So there were about five radio receivers in the village.
    I saw a newspaper I [INAUDIBLE] that I did come in contact
    with the newspaper.
    That is a complicated story.
    And in 1936 and '37 I was able already to read well.
    And my grandfather was getting a newspaper, which described
    all Spanish Civil War.
    So I was though, informed.
    Already, I had-- six or seven-year-old
    that there was a country in Spain, and it was in war.
    And I was intrigued by all these names like, Franco
    and Madrid and Barcelona.
    Also [INAUDIBLE] I did not realize
    that I was getting fascist propaganda, because these
    were fascist paper.
    Were they printed in Czech?
    They were printed in Czech.
    And they were not nobody really actually subscribe to that.
    They were sent there by the fascist party,
    which was lead by former General Gaidar was his name.
    And apparently, there were three people
    who were loyal to this General Gaidar.
    And their loyalty was not because he's been a fascist.
    His fascism was more or less directed
    Italian type of fascism.
    Gaidar was a regular soldier during First World War.
    And three men in this village was serving in his company.
    And he was a corporal, and they, therefore,
    were very faithful or loyal to their former corporal.
    And apparently, I was under impression later on,
    when I find out who it was, that there
    were only three people in that village who were fascist.
    But to my horror, last year, I visited the country again
    and visited and learned to know there is a library--
    there is a chronic village historian
    who recorded what was going on in the village for maybe 400
    years.
    And I did get access in the neighboring village,
    a little town we just call Stríbrné Hory in my town,
    Nalžovské Hory, and I found out that there were parliamentary
    elections in the country in 1935.
    And I have some memory about it.
    And I found out that out of that village,
    I expected only to find three fascists.
    But unfortunately, I was horrified,
    and I had the statistics of our result of the election.
    There were 25 fascists.
    Wow, in small--
    In that village.
    And 25 out of 250?
    Yes.
    And the fascist party had become--
    actually, since it was a politically very fragmented
    country and every village was, too, in that village alone,
    I believe there were 11 different parties.
    My goodness.
    Well this is an interesting type of situation.
    Because many places, if you were to talk
    about farming villages--
    and the place that you described sounded very remote,
    in some ways, extremely remote because
    of the economic development in it, what stage it was at--
    most people would be apolitical, particularly if they're
    farmers and for what is important to them
    are the seasons and whether or not the crops will grow.
    But if--
    True.
    --what you're describing now sounds
    like people who had political views, you know,
    that they had some kind of engagement
    in a point of view and a world view
    and a political kind of sensibility.
    Did you remember the grown-ups talking about politics?
    Yeah, yes and no.
    As I say, political figures in that village
    puzzles me even today.
    I know the result of those parliamentary elections
    that there was even one commoner.
    But I knew correctly who the communist was.
    Because that was the librarian.
    Really?
    That was a librarian.
    And the reason I know it, because no grown-up men
    would talk to somebody who is only 10 years old.
    And I find myself on some grazing field
    where the cows, and he was there too.
    And he started to talk to me.
    And he let me know that he was a communist,
    and he talked solely about Russia.
    He apparently felt that I'd conclude.
    That must have been going in his mind
    that I'd be receptive, because I was reading all these books.
    Oh, I see.
    So I knew who was the communist.
    But I felt that I knew who could possibly be only the fascists.
    I felt it would be the miller [INAUDIBLE]
    and grinding for flour mill and the baker and my grandfather,
    because they were the faithful soldiers who
    would serve the emperor during First World War in the Balkans.
    So this--
    And the corporal was [PERSONAL NAME] [? Gaidar, ?]
    who become famous general during the First World War,
    because he deserted the Austrian army and then find himself
    in Russia where he made the name for himself,
    and after the war--
    of his daring.
    He was sent to a military school to France to Paris
    and become well-known military man.
    But he was corrupt and was caught.
    And as a result of it, [INAUDIBLE] out of the army.
    And he founded a political party.
    And it was called [? BLIKA ?],, which was a fascist party.
    So are you saying that your grandfather was a supporter
    of this particular man?
    Yes, they were.
    And as I know my grandfather's background as a young man,
    because from large family, one of the brother of his father
    was a priest in Vienna.
    And what you do sometimes with so many children,
    they would send--
    if there were any kids problem, they would send them to Vienna.
    I'm talking before the First World War Vienna.
    Right, mm-hmm.
    And the priest, the uncle would take care of them.
    And my father and my grandfather had a position in Vienna
    by learning the trade as a tailor.
    And that my grandfather political orientation in then
    Vienna was very socialist.
    He was a follower of Karl Renner,
    who was one that time a socialist mayor of Vienna.
    And my grandfather would run out of Vienna
    because he took part in some demo socialist demonstration,
    and his boss knew it.
    And that time in Austrian empire,
    if you didn't behave in one place, you were sent back home.
    I see.
    And that's how my grandfather from socialists ended
    in Těchonice and during the First World War in the Balkans
    war and where he met this future fascist leader.
    And I believe that is because he never--
    my grandfather died at the age--
    in 1944.
    He never really didn't know what fascism was and how it ended.
    So I believe all these fascists absolutely in Těchonice were
    babes in a wood totally unaware what they were part of.
    I see.
    And did your grandfather ever talk politics to you?
    No, he did not.
    I do remember on that year, 1935 elections,
    that I happened to post some posters on a house on the side
    on the wall of the house.
    He did not use anything in the village except his own house,
    advertised few posters, because they
    received these posters again.
    And I [? circulate ?] those newspaper,
    because none of those three fascists which I knew
    wouldn't spend money on newspaper.
    They would send this paper free.
    And they have to circulate them.
    And I was one of--
    I carried from our house to the next house.
    And during that time, I read them.
    So can you tell me were there any other newspapers that
    made their way to the village, or was it only this one?
    I believe the priests had one Catholic newspaper, which was
    a Catholic well-known paper.
    And I see them, but I believe they circulate only
    from the priest to one of other village,
    the one of other house.
    And I only remember they were coming to buy subscription,
    because I collected stamps.
    And the boys who carried those paper gave me the stamp.
    So I am aware only two paper.
    One apparently was Catholic paper.
    I believe it was called "Lidové noviny."
    And it was a Catholic paper.
    Because I know the biggest, strongest party
    at that in my time was agrarian party.
    And then there was, of course, a Catholic party,
    which was for [? lidová strana ?]..
    And what about news of the government
    and people like President Masaryk and so on,
    was there any kind of government newspaper?
    Was there any Democratic--
    No.
    --newspaper?
    I am not aware of anybody-- certainly,
    I am sure that a school director would have newspaper.
    But I don't think so that anything ever
    come out of school house.
    I see, I see.
    If I have ever learned anything in that village,
    it was to be Czech.
    And that I have learned in school.
    And if I have learned any "ism," it was nationalism.
    That was there [INAUDIBLE] and a mostly young generation,
    not particularly in my generation.
    And how do you explain it?
    How do you explain if that was a very strong kind of sentiment?
    I have often engaged in sort of a reflection
    and analysis of the situation, which I was there.
    Because I find that village very hard-working people
    who understood what they were doing.
    More or less, they were serious people
    that took care of their family.
    And they were not practicing any evil-doing.
    Yes, there were a few frivolous little things out there
    that somebody would argue about, some little piece of land
    or anything.
    But otherwise, it was a religion which
    presented to me quite harmonious way of living and sharing,
    I think, and particularly family.
    I did not find there any antagonism against each other.
    I did not find any party--
    they were dancing during winter dances, which
    were called [INAUDIBLE] or balls,
    and which was usually sponsored by some political party.
    The agrarian party would have definitely ball.
    Then there were tradesmen, which few tradesmen.
    They would have ball.
    The firemen would have balls.
    And as I say, they did support of such activities,
    but they were very thrifty.
    Everyone was very thrifty.
    Going to the high school was not something every kid can aspire
    there to go, because high school was located already two hours
    of walk in the little town of Plánice.
    And because Těchonice were not part of the investment when
    school was built, you have to pay fee.
    And therefore, I find myself in that high school,
    and my grandparents have to pay a fee.
    And the fee was going high.
    And I will talk later on, because Veca Florian too
    went into that high school.
    That means his mother and his family
    have to pay a fee too, because they
    come from village Velenovy.
    And they were not part of the early investment
    in the school, which was built at the turn of the century.
    And it was explained to me later on why I had to pay a fee.
    And therefore, out of the village of Těchonice,
    there were hardly two or three kids who went to the high
    school.
    So if I understood right, when it comes to education,
    the school that you had in Těchonice had three rooms,
    you told me?
    Three rooms, yes.
    Yeah.
    And in two of the rooms, it was two classes each.
    So that means four grades.
    Yes.
    And in one room, it was four classes.
    So that means eight grades in total.
    So after--
    Right.
    --eighth grade, that's when you had
    to go to the high school in [? Planovy ?]??
    Is this what you're saying the town was.
    No, after or I could go already in Plánice at the fifth grade.
    Otherwise, if I didn't go, I would get out
    of elementary school eighth grade.
    And that would be end of my education.
    OK, and at what grade?
    You say first grade you could go to [? Plánovice ?]??
    From the fifth grade.
    Fifth grade, five.
    I finished fifth grade.
    And at sixth grade, I went into Plánice.
    Got it, Plánice.
    And there you continue into what would be
    the equivalent of high school?
    Yes.
    And from there it was normal time.
    Again, I have the opportunity to go to gymnasium, or some trade
    school, or some specialized school [INAUDIBLE]
    business schools and things like that.
    That, of course, in my case, would be a wartime.
    And that was already, as a foreigner, a restriction.
    OK.
    We're not there yet.
    I'm still talking your childhood in the 1930s
    and wanting to find out more about it.
    Can you tell me, did anybody have an automobile
    in your town?
    No.
    Not at all.
    It would be rare if we saw--
    I think we saw a number of automobiles that can
    be count on one hand per year.
    And it would be a real show.
    All kids will be simply [? aping ?]
    on a car has passed through.
    And it would also never be really a private automobile.
    Although.
    I must correct myself.
    I have an uncle who was younger brother of my grandfather
    who was high military official.
    He had, at that time, a car already in the yard.
    He visited the village in the army car twice in my time.
    That must have been exciting.
    Yes.
    And I did not see him, because my grandparents,
    or particularly grandmother--
    when he arrived, he arrived without announcement.
    And he was seen in the distance walking to our house,
    grandma quickly called me and put me in the cellar,
    because I was barefooted and rather--
    and i was very sad.
    Every kid was, though.
    I wasn't certainly something they did not want to advertise.
    So I had never really face-to-face met my uncle
    who was so high until 1945.
    And he was instrumental that when
    I announced that I am going to leave the country
    and join United States Army, nobody in my family was for it.
    And when he arrived, I was already
    grown up to 18-year-old.
    And I met him for first time.
    And when he heard it, he approve of it.
    And in fact, everybody in the family finally accepted it.
    Well, isn't that interesting, you know,
    what kind of an effect it had?
    So this was when my question started
    with does anybody have a car, and it goes to the one person
    whom you knew who just came to visit 2 times.
    And the first time was not very successful,
    but the second time sounds like it made up for it.
    A funny footnotes to this story is when I arrived finally
    after about five years--
    I was in the Army of Occupation in Germany--
    when I arrived to Chicago and reconnected
    with mother's family, younger generation who
    remember mother and remember me as a baby,
    they all asked me about this uncle.
    Because from their parents, they heard
    nothing but great stories.
    I jokingly say to them, "I don't remember him well,
    because every time he come on visit,
    I was still in the cellar."
    [LAUGHING]
    And so they have fun to hear this story,
    because they already know.
    Because he eventually become [INAUDIBLE]
    where he was also sentenced to get [INAUDIBLE] Germans
    caught during a war.
    And he was in number of concentration camps.
    And somehow he survived.
    And somehow he get back to the army.
    And the first two years he become brigadier general.
    OK, tell me this part.
    When during World War II, how was it
    that he got sentenced to concentration camps?
    What happened?
    What I know, he was already doing [INAUDIBLE]
    a Republic very high ranking army officer.
    He commanded a certain large group of army
    in Slovakia, where he become responsible for certain defense
    region of Slovakia against possible invasion from Hungary.
    And so he obviously already had a reputation
    and had quite an education.
    He was the only, out of 10 children,
    one who was given education already
    during the Hapsburg monarchy.
    He was getting education, not only in Bohemia, but also
    in Austria.
    And he also, during First World War,
    deserted from Austrian army and joined the Czechoslovakian
    Legion in Russia.
    And he have also what they call particularly
    in the move all the way across Russia to Siberia.
    I was evacuated from Vladivostok come after First World War.
    Almost three years after the war,
    he become also one of the elite in the army.
    OK, the Czechoslovak Army.
    Czechoslovak Army.
    And obviously, during the [INAUDIBLE]
    of Czechoslovak state.
    He also was a personal assistant to one
    of the general and general staff, General Elias.
    Elias become a prime minister during the occupation
    who was executed.
    So obviously, he had too many connection with--
    Excuse me, General Elias became a--
    Elias, yes.
    --prime minister during which years?
    He was a prime minister during early years of the occupation
    when a political hat was there.
    He was prime minister under President Hacha.
    OK, can you give me years?
    Because I don't understand the significance until I
    know what years these meant.
    When you say Protectorate, do you
    mean when the Nazis already invaded?
    Yes, Nazis were already in power.
    When he become a permanent minister,
    then the Nazi occupied the country on March 15, 1939.
    There were two prime ministers who changed greatly,
    because there were number of resignations
    until finally the country become Protectorate
    of Bohemia and Moravia.
    And with the president, who was no longer president
    of a count--, he was called [NON-ENGLISH] president,
    which was interesting title.
    I can't simply translate it.
    It's OK.
    But he was mostly a state president.
    And he was assisted by take--
    he was assisted by minimum--
    the Czech did not have much of a government.
    It was a source of a schedule.
    For lack of words, I do have it, but I can't explain it.
    Excuse me.
    Maybe I'm asking too many questions on this.
    The real question was what happened
    with your relative who was this high military officer
    under the Nazi occupation?
    What was his fate?
    I believe this must have taken place in 1940,
    when he become a prime minister.
    He was actively in touch with a British group in London.
    And that was what happened.
    There were hardly about six positions in the government.
    And he was President Hacha's--
    actually, he was very close to the president.
    I have both of them [INAUDIBLE] actively and secretly
    communicating with England on this affair absolutely
    somebody.
    I do know very well that history,
    but I can't just suddenly put it in short.
    No, no, it's OK.
    i don't mean to ask you the history.
    It is truly your relative that I was interested in.
    And what is his name?
    What is his name, your relative, the general?
    General Elias.
    E-L--
    Was that your-- your grandfather's brother
    was General Elias?
    No, oh my-- no, no, no, my grandfather young brother
    was called Sebesta too, accept he was called Joseph.
    Joseph Sebesta.
    Joseph Sebesta.
    And he was known by fancy nickname, Pepa, Uncle Pepa.
    Uncle Pepa.
    And when you say Uncle Pepa, you shake.
    And he was a idol.
    He was somebody to look up.
    An Uncle Pepa ended very badly under any regimes.
    OK, so what happened under the Nazi regime to Uncle Pepa?
    That was my real question.
    But obviously, he was very demobilized
    immediately by the US.
    The Czech Army did have--
    and as a defense of the Republic,
    they did have an organization among top.
    No military personnel who have [INAUDIBLE] certain expertise.
    I believe his expertise was in administration.
    And he was-- there were controversies, [INAUDIBLE]
    I believe in 28 regions.
    And each of them had secretly had
    been responsible already organized some action how
    to plan for defense of a country and in case
    where the country is going to be independent again
    that they were able to immediately establish Civil
    Rule or some organized system.
    And he was a part of one of this--
    his assignment was part of Slovakia, that I know.
    And apparently, that was all secret.
    In fact, there is a book.
    And I have sent the book back, back
    to some relative, some distant relative,
    who was interested because somebody published book.
    And one chapter was describing his role.
    In case [INAUDIBLE].
    In Czech, it's called [CZECH],, resistance.
    OK, now I have the word.
    The worst part of planned resistance, which military
    planned before they were demobilized.
    Some left, of course, abroad to England to Russia.
    But some of those who stayed in were organized secretly,
    and he was a part.
    And apparently by 1940 or '41, he too
    was arrested on the city of [? Platno ?]..
    And I think his first trial he was tried for treason.
    I know that there-- and there were two types of treason.
    And then he was also tried a second trial
    for treason was in Berlin already.
    Then he was someplace in East Prussia
    that I know already during the German occupation.
    And then from somehow along how he get
    evacuated from East Prussia all the way and ended in Bavaria.
    And he take-- because of his military expertise,
    he took part of--
    And I know the name of Bavarian town
    which was [INAUDIBLE],, which was supposedly resisting
    our American advances.
    And he'd become a organizer of resistance and also
    the American Army.
    So he, in fact, ended actively and for a few weeks
    as a soldier.
    And he received very high awards from the US Army.
    I do not have this information on my fingertips, because--
    No, no, I mean, I sorry.
    --I do have it in my files.
    No, no, no, I am sorry, because I'm
    asking distracting questions.
    But when you said he had been arrested by the Nazis,
    that's when my ears picked up.
    And I wanted to know what was he arrested for,
    where was he imprisoned, and what happened later?
    And it turns out that it's quite complex.
    It's not--
    It's complex, and it was treason.
    There were two charges.
    One against that and one of them was a treason
    and then a high treason.
    Now I get it, "velezrada," treason against state
    and then high treason.
    Well, those are usually charges that end in execution.
    Yes, and that is a surprise that it did not.
    Because it was suddenly keep moving from Berlin
    to some obscure place in Prussia.
    So when you say--
    [INAUDIBLE] concentration camp.
    Yeah.
    So this is the other thing that needed to be established.
    When you say he kept moving, that means he kept--
    he was in prison, and his prison location
    was changed from one place to another.
    Yes.
    But he was not a free man.
    No, he was not a free man.
    And that he was not executed is one
    of those good fortune for him.
    Yeah.
    And then he ends up in Bavaria, again,
    one must assume, in prison.
    And so therefore, if you--
    you may not know this, but it would
    have been a unique way of providing resistance
    and helping the Americans while you were still
    a prisoner in a concentration camp.
    That would be one of my questions
    is how do you do that?
    OK, I believe he was participating
    in one of those marches, which they called dead marches.
    Ah, I see.
    And that's how he found himself in Grafenau.
    Now I know it.
    It was called Grafenau.
    Grafenau
    Yes, Grafenau.
    And that's where he ended and when
    he was discovered by the American Army
    that he has military expertise.
    He immediately organized group.
    And he participated in capitulation of Grafenau
    and two other places.
    I see.
    And he'd become-- he'd become later on when he finally
    get in the country.
    A commander of the Western part and ran [? what is called ?]
    have military district where he was actively.
    There are pictures of him with even the General George Patton.
    That's amazing.
    I mean, he sounds like he was quite an unusual person
    and, of course, had quite an unusual destiny.
    And an experience is what happened to him during the war.
    And did you ever meet enough?
    You met him afterwards, because he's
    the one who told your family that he approved that you
    would leave for America.
    Did you ever hear him tell any part of his story to you?
    This happened about in 1947.
    And it must have been in April.
    I was getting ready.
    I already know where to report [INAUDIBLE]
    and military attache already had my papers.
    And I was just waiting for a certain date,
    and suddenly he appear in his new general's uniform.
    I make the runs, because he visited my grandmother,
    mostly because she was a widow of his brother.
    That was-- he was a gentleman [? every inch. ?]
    And then he find me there.
    And that is the first time I was able to face him already
    as a grown-up now.
    I did not have to face him in a barefoot.
    And then he said that he knew all about my existence.
    And he said, "What are your plans?
    What you doing?"
    And when he find out, then he said,
    "You're doing the right thing.
    You go as fast as you could.
    And you are going to have, not only good meals,
    you're going to [INAUDIBLE]."
    He absolutely knew a great deal about US Army.
    And he assured grandma and everybody,
    "He is doing the right thing."
    Because he, himself, apparently knew
    that situation in Czechoslovakia was not going to end very well.
    I left Czechoslovakia about hardly nine months
    before the communist took over.
    And apparently he knew something.
    OK, and his name was Joseph Sebest?
    Joseph Sebesta.
    Sebesta.
    Just like my mother's name.
    Sebesta.
    Your mother is Marie Sebestova, and he was Joseph Sebesta?
    Yes.
    As you know, the Czech female names were always end in ova.
    Yeah, yeah.
    OK, thank you for sharing that about your uncle.
    He seems-- of your grand uncle, actually,
    you know, your grandfather's brother.
    And let's go back now to your town.
    So one of the questions that comes to mind--
    when you were telling me that you
    were reading newspapers and learning about the Spanish
    Civil War and that this was a fascist paper,
    one of the questions is that if they
    were printing news about the Spanish Civil
    War or propaganda, was there news
    about the neighboring country, Germany, in those newspapers
    as well?
    And was there news about Adolf Hitler?
    And how much did people know there
    in your village about what was going on in Germany?
    Well, by the time of 1928, the village
    suddenly, to my surprise, was actively following what
    was going on in Germany and the threat to the country.
    I believe that some of them did get the message when
    Austria deplored Anschluss.
    I do remember that I did not know the meaning of the word
    Anschluss.
    But I do remember one illustrative newspaper
    magazine, which was called [INAUDIBLE] where the word
    Anschluss was a headline.
    And being a reader, I kept reading it
    and wondering what it means.
    But I knew already that country was true getting to be intense.
    And I do believe that tension already spilled already
    in our attitude toward our German classmate,
    who was [INAUDIBLE] to know just quarrel on [NON-ENGLISH] means
    hunt, German hunt.
    I see.
    So in other words, did that change?
    Did people start treating this boy differently?
    No, it was us kids.
    I believe the village had a healthy respect for his mother.
    Because she has a very hard-working person.
    There a very hard work-- she contributed
    a great deal of labor to lots of farmers who need help.
    And she need, of course, help from them too.
    Because it was very poor family.
    The husband was sort of indifferent.
    I had a very, very interesting encounter,
    which [INAUDIBLE] his attitude.
    Because when the Czechoslovak Army declare first mobilization
    in 1938 in May, I was the only kid
    in one place with the radio where
    the people were listening.
    I was the only--
    I don't know why my mother took me there.
    OK.
    It was in one of the pub, one of the beer hall, hospoda,
    the Czechs say.
    And there was a--
    I did not-- when I think of it, I was amazed how aware suddenly
    the people.
    I did not think of them that they'd
    think of a country where we could [INAUDIBLE]..
    Because the mobilization was declared that evening.
    And by morning, I could see how readily
    some of the fathers of my classmates were marching--
    received their marching orders and how they received already
    the announcement.
    The end of announcement was President Beneš [INAUDIBLE]
    a mobilization.
    And in that moment, where I was sitting with all those people,
    everybody get on its feet, because they
    played the national anthem.
    And everybody got on its feet, except him.
    So the radio plays the national anthem.
    Everybody is listening to the radio,
    because Beneš is declaring mobilization.
    Yes.
    And everyone stands up, but this man does not.
    No.
    And what happened, everybody patiently
    wait until the anthem was over.
    Then the young people begun to attack him.
    And of course, [? older ?] have to separate him.
    I kind of wonder if sometimes in my analysis of those events
    if he knew what was going on?
    Why did not he get-- why didn't he get up?
    Did he not speak Czech?
    And he did not speak Czech.
    But yet his name was so Czech, "Soukup."
    He was on the mercy of the village, because you lived
    in what is called pool house, which
    was supported by the village.
    Wow.
    What was his last name?
    What was the reason that the family find itself there?
    And that both parents--
    his wife definitely was Bavarian.
    She was definitely not able to master one word in Czech.
    He, I would not know if he knew Czech,
    because he never spoke Czech.
    What was his name?
    But his children--
    Yeah.
    And his children were as Czech as I was.
    What is his name?
    What was his last name, this man?
    The last name was Soukup.
    And that's a Czech name.
    That's not a German name.
    Soukup is S-O-U-K-U-P, Soukup.
    Soukup, Soukup.
    I do not know the first name, but I
    believe it would be Hans or Jan in Czech.
    Because his son, only son while he had three girls,
    were called Hansa, which is nickname for John, Jan.
    I see, I see.
    OK, OK.
    So this was the radio broadcast of mobilization?
    And was yes before the Munich Agreement
    or after the Munich Agreement?
    That was before.
    That was the first Czech mobilization.
    That was in May.
    The second mobilization took place [? alright ?]
    in September same year.
    But this was the first signal of tension,
    first awareness of everyone, then
    the world is not going to be same again.
    Village was changing.
    Well, that's interesting, yeah.
    I think it was changing.
    I found out that there were suddenly
    people who really besides their work
    and thinking only about substance and existence,
    they suddenly were aware of the country in danger.
    And you are 10 years old at this time?
    I wasn't even 10 years old, because I would be in--
    I was nine and 1/2.
    Got it, got it.
    OK.
    Nine and 1/2.
    And then did like--
    so Munich Agreement happens the same year.
    I believe--
    That Munich Agreement happened, yes, on the fall.
    Yeah
    In the fall.
    The Munich Agreement did not mean the end of the country.
    It meant that country with dismembered and put
    on the ruins and on the knees.
    It meant capitulation and its assertion
    of great deal of territory.
    That was a different story, which
    happened then 1939 in March.
    That was the end.
    That also bring great changes.
    And it affected not only me, but also Václav Florian.
    OK, so let's talk first about how
    did this Munich Agreement-- what effect did
    it have on your village and, if anything, on your family?
    Munich Agreement did not have much of any effect, only
    awareness that there will be--
    that we are not safe.
    OK.
    There were maneuvers also conducted.
    I think they were early swing maneuvers.
    These maneuvers suddenly army appear in Těchonice within
    a few hours.
    And they have a maneuver.
    And I do realize and know--
    at that time, I did not know--
    that the maneuvers were defensive move.
    When the army show up under some maneuvers,
    it was already giving up the part of the country.
    Because they appeared in Těchonice for a couple hours
    and kept moving into inland.
    And that is a different story.
    The entire village was then up in a up.
    Because they knew that the war is imminent.
    But that the village, itself, this
    was the first time that you had seen army maneuvers
    in the village at all?
    Yes, this is the first time I have seen any man in uniform,
    besides my uncle from distance.
    OK.
    And was your village part of the territorial changes?
    Or did you stay within Czechoslovakia proper?
    I did not get a sense of your question.
    OK.
    My question is after the Munich Agreement,
    you say the country is divided, yes?
    Yes, the country become divided, because Slovakia also
    become in a political crisis and division of the country become
    imminent.
    And it come apart then following year,
    six months later in March.
    OK.
    Munich is a source of a disaster in a waiting room.
    It's waiting.
    Got it.
    [LAUGHING] That's a very interesting way to put it.
    But it sounds quite accurate, disaster in a waiting room.
    You know, you have one disaster, you're in a waiting room,
    you know another one's coming.
    Yes, another's coming.
    It was imminent that country would not be
    able to economically survive.
    It was absolutely not feasible because then in Těchonice first
    appear a first refugee.
    He was a young guy, only two years older than me,
    from Carpathia, from a distant part of the Republic,
    which was called Podkarpatská Rus.
    And it is known in [? atlas ?] in the Western part [INAUDIBLE]
    as Ruthenia and today, part of Ukraine.
    That's right, that's right.
    And why was this person a refugee in Těchonice?
    I think he had some distant relatives.
    And it was again the miller, one who identify
    as one of the fascists.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Now, you'd mentioned very early on that your best friend was
    Florian, Václav Florian, yes?
    Yes.
    Did you boys talk to one another about what's
    going on here about all these changes?
    Yes, Václav Florian, at that particular time,
    was still in Těchonice.
    OK.
    He would leave as the family would leave
    when his grandfather passed.
    And his grandfather passed in a good time, if I might say.
    Because as an old man, he was a Jewish.
    But his grandson was Mischling, half-Jewish.
    OK.
    And during this crisis, his grandfather passed away.
    And as a result of it, the family then moved,
    because the father of Václav was better of being in other
    neighboring village, because his parents had a better condition
    for him to farm.
    They had better farms.
    He did not need to be in Těchonice with a small grocery
    store and few fields.
    So obviously, family moved.
    That was a time when we parted.
    Although we were very close and we visited each other
    at least for one year we were in contact with each other
    until he too went to high school.
    Then we reconnected, because then that is--
    if you want to continue and talk about what happened to me
    and to Václav how we parted, then I continue that way.
    OK, hang on just a second.
    I want to ask a few questions before we go there.
    And the first one is his grandfather was named Schwartz,
    that was his last name, yes?
    Yes.
    And do you know when he-- you said he passed at a good time,
    so probably before the war starts.
    Do you know about what year this was
    or even what month it might have been?
    I believe it was definitely a year.
    It was someplace like the end of 1938.
    OK.
    So the Munich Agreement has happened?
    The Munich Agreement already did happen when he passed.
    OK.
    And his wife that is Florian's, Václav's grandmother,
    had she already--
    She was-- I never met her.
    She was no longer alive.
    Because only grandpa was there when in 1932 when I arrived
    and when I finally made connection [INAUDIBLE]
    good friendship.
    He had only grandfather, just Jewish grandfather
    in Těchonice.
    But he had grandparents on his father's side nearby village.
    OK.
    Velenovy.
    Got it.
    So we were talking about Václav, who's half-Jewish,
    his mother Julia, who is entirely Jewish,
    and his father, who is not Jewish but who is Czech.
    Yes.
    Is that correct?
    His mother was called, Jula.
    Jula.
    And his father's first name, do you know what that was?
    The first name was--
    I do not know the grandfather's first name.
    No, no, no, the father's first name, Mr. Florian's first name.
    Oh, Mr. Florian, Václav.
    He was Václav, too.
    The father was Václav.
    OK.
    And Václav Florian, the father, was not Jewish?
    No, he was not Jew.
    OK, OK.
    So we've got that established that--
    now, were there any other Jewish families aside from this one
    in the village?
    No, there was not.
    And I could come--
    I have colorfully it really, in my mind went through about five
    to six villages all around, which were sort of satellite
    of Těchonice.
    None of them.
    I believe that this was a Jewish family,
    which may come there much more earlier than 19th century
    and that the Jewish community was more in places like
    Horažďovice and Plánice, [PLACE NAME],, small town.
    In a small village, they were simply a rarity.
    And this were the Schwartz.
    OK, OK, thank you.
    Thank you for laying that kind of background for me that
    in your part of the world in your part of this southwestern
    part of Czechoslovakia in this circle of small villages
    of which Těchonice was sort of the center,
    it really was the only Jewish family around.
    And to find more, you'd have to go to towns, actually,
    towns in the district rather than villages.
    Right.
    Is that--
    You have it right.
    OK.
    That is exactly as I experienced and as I remember it.
    OK, so now let's talk--
    I do know--
    Yeah?
    I can't identify then what Jewish families
    would be other places.
    But definitely, this is not in Těchonice or around Těchonice
    at all.
    Yeah, OK.
    And that was your world.
    When you were a young boy just about
    to become a teenager, age 10, 11, 12, and so on,
    that is your world.
    You don't go beyond that area.
    You don't travel beyond that area.
    I live my life very intensely up there.
    And it became--
    I must admit that the roots of my upbringing are Czech.
    Of course, it was not my home.
    And I did regret that I have to leave it.
    As my mother regretted leaving Chicago,
    I was leaving with regrets.
    But I did the right thing too.
    And I was fortunate to be able to do it in time.
    OK, and we'll come to that.
    But right now, we have those big years
    that is the central part of our story.
    And that's from, I'd say, 1939, you say March 1939
    until the end of the war.
    And I would suggest that we talk a little bit about this time
    but also postpone to have a part two
    of our interview another day.
    How would you--
    Yeah, that's fine.
    Yeah?
    Because we're talking in detail, and I'd
    like to capture all of this detail.
    Mm-hmm, yes.
    All right, so let's go to what happens to Těchonice in March
    1939, half a year after the Munich Agreement?
    It [? come a shock ?] and it became clear
    that the morning on March 1939, which suddenly
    early in the morning we find ourselves
    assemble in part of the village and reading in a poster
    that the country ceased to exist and then become
    a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.
    And for first time, every announcement
    became in German and in Czech.
    At that particular time, we were still going to school.
    We were shocked and in sort of disbelief.
    And our teacher was a local from nearby village.
    He was a former army officer, who
    only a few months ago was mobilized
    ready to defend the country.
    And he had to explain to us what happened.
    And I would give you one example.
    Because for first time, suddenly we
    have learned that we must listen carefully,
    and we must also be careful what we say and to who we talk to.
    Our classmate was the German boy, Hans.
    He was still in Těchonice, and he was still our classmate.
    And we did that morning suddenly teachers sent him on errand.
    Unusual, because usually he would send teacher on errands
    send girls.
    I don't know why, but on errand.
    And usually it will be something show
    up getting message to director who school was two floors.
    So he sent him on errand.
    And he wasn't coming out of that errand right away.
    We did not know why.
    But that was done the teacher took time
    to inform us in confidence what is
    taking place, what we can expect,
    and how we should behave.
    And it comes many years later that I did contact the teacher.
    In fact, I contacted him many years later.
    And I remind him and thank him how he talk to us.
    And he say, yeah, had to arrange that with a director
    to send the German boy on a run, because he did not
    trust that something else might come out of it.
    But I personally have found out that that was no fear,
    because Hans had become as Václav Florian was my good
    friend.
    Hans have become my lifetime friend too until he died.
    Oh, my goodness.
    Oh, my goodness.
    So the half-Jewish boy in town was your close friend
    and so was the German boy, Hans?
    So it was, but I am responding to your question.
    People began to be careful there were changes.
    And us children in school, we were beneficially a few things.
    Because we are Czech army, of course,
    have a great deal of supplies.
    And it was food supplies and sugar, particularly too.
    We were getting extra ration of sugar and honey
    from the reserve, which apparently
    was someplace stashed as a reserve for the army.
    So obviously, there were some kind
    of benefits of all what was happening.
    The kids did have it, you know?
    Because--
    What did the teacher say?
    Excuse me to interrupt, but what was-- first of all,
    what was the name of the teacher, if you remember it?
    And what did he say?
    When he was talking to you when he
    sent Hans on this long errand, what was he telling you?
    Well, he was a very patriotic teacher.
    He was from neighboring village, also parishioner of Těchonice.
    So he understood very well.
    He knew history of the kids.
    He also knew very well where I come from.
    Because when my mother arrived with me on this godforsaken
    place, she had to get out of this railroad station,
    and it was winter and walk with me.
    And first village was his village, and stop in his house,
    in his father's house, who happened
    to be friend of my grandfather.
    So he absolutely knew of my arrival in that village.
    So obviously, he knew who he was talking.
    And he [INAUDIBLE] not to forget who we were.
    It was a patriotic in a way speech.
    But he cautioned us about being careful and not to be talking
    to anybody just not to even say to anybody what
    he's telling us.
    I could no longer recall.
    But it was simply that we would have to part with all symbols.
    And he point out the picture of the first president
    of the Republic that will be all removed.
    And he also allowed us to watch from the window
    the march of German army in the distance.
    Because being a second floor, we had good view and a distant
    highway, which was [INAUDIBLE] because the highway going from
    South of our country from [PLACE NAME] [? Budejovice ?]
    moving to [? Strakonice ?] [? Horažďovice ?] passing.
    We could see that there was a movement in the highway.
    Yeah, yeah.
    And we could see him being in a state of shock.
    We did not know if we had to be sorry for ourself or for him,
    because he was in pain.
    And I could not repeat the words after all that time.
    But I know the reason we understood
    why he sent Hans Soukup out of classroom for errand.
    He didn't want to talk openly to him.
    He had every confidence that we will do what he is asking us.
    I see, I see.
    And what was his name?
    His name is Behensky.
    His first name is Václav.
    The country is full of Václavs.
    [LAUGHING] It's true, it's true.
    And how--
    Behensky, it's a little long name, but I spell it.
    B-E-H-E-N-S-K-Y.
    Thank you.
    Yeah, it's right, Behensky, B-E-N--
    B-E-H-A-E-- I'm sorry, I start all over.
    OK.
    B-E-H-E-N-S-K-Y, Behensky.
    Thank you.
    Thank you, very much.
    Well, you know it's a rare thing at a time like that
    for a teacher to kind of warn and guide his students.
    Because no one talks to you publicly.
    There is no newspaper to tell you what's going on.
    There is no news.
    There is no-- and people report that over and over again
    that when changes like this happen, there are rumors.
    Rumors are everywhere.
    But there isn't hard information.
    And there isn't any kind of guidance,
    because people get frightened.
    Immediately, what he says to be careful about who you speak to,
    that's how public life turns.
    Whereas the day before you could share whatever views you had.
    When changes like this happened the second day,
    well, it can become dangerous.
    I have asked later in life many Czechs of my age
    who live in a town that they get a different experience than we
    in a village.
    I know that there were attempt to listen to radio.
    The radio play nothing but one just sound.
    It was actually-- I have learned to know it was
    Smetana's symphonic poems from "The High Castle,"
    which was in Czech called "Vyšehrad."
    It's was tones, first three tones of a play on harps.
    And it evokes our source of a historical, mythic past
    of the country, something going thousand years back.
    Wow.
    I'm sorry.
    I hear the sound.
    I'm sorry.
    It's OK.
    That's OK.
    I hear the sound.
    I know the poems.
    And that was all what we heard on radio that day.
    There was no announcement, except it
    must have been well prepared some place
    in the region of Klatovy that these posters were
    posted immediately.
    They did not address invasion, just occupation of country
    took midnight.
    By morning 8 o'clock, these posters
    were everywhere already in the entire region.
    That's amazing.
    So how quickly they are who deliver them, I would not know.
    But it must have been by motorcycle
    by the region of town of Klatovy.
    It must have been some gendarme going around
    and keep posting this announcement.
    Because countryside find it only like that.
    Wow.
    And then later on, apparently, I know that again mother took me
    to the inn where they tried to listen to the radio,
    and there was no announcement, except this [? song ?] from
    Smetana "My Country," which is in Czech called, "Má vlast."
    And it's a first symphonic poem, which is called "High Castle."
    It's a castle when you enter to Prague from the south
    of a country called Vyšehrad.
    I know that area.
    I know that area.
    I know what you mean.
    It's--
    And that was what was going on hour an hour
    until we gave it up.
    Because I don't know when regular broadcasting
    start that I don't know.
    But I know that people listened for hours to [INAUDIBLE]..
    It did not.
    The only thing was the posters and that's it.
    And from a distance, they could see the movement of troops.
    But Těchonice, including all these little villages I named,
    did not see any Germans on that day.
    OK.
    And what about Václav Florian, was he still in your--
    No, Václav Florian, at that time, what I'd described,
    was in a different class.
    He was in the second class.
    He was in the fourth grade.
    OK.
    But he--
    This is very interesting question.
    I did not ask him-- he did not have the--
    the class he did not have the problem.
    Because it was a class only of Czech.
    And I considered Václav, and everybody considered him
    as a citizen of that village and citizen of the country.
    OK.
    So the teacher was a lady.
    She did not have to go to this cautious approach.
    I'm sure she told them something similar.
    OK.
    Because she was the wife of the director.
    So they must have met early in morning
    and apparently agreed how they would
    do to tell these children.
    Fortunately, school had something about 120 children
    from four different villages.
    That's a lot.
    That's--
    That was a lot that my class was a largest of it all.
    I believe it was well close to 50.
    And you were in which class at this point?
    I was in the fifth--
    first class, but fifth grade.
    You were in the--
    OK.
    And Václav was in fourth grade.
    So he was in a different classroom.
    Got it.
    And it was after this year that you would go to Plánice?
    Yes, that would take two more years.
    Not year, actually year and half more.
    Then Václav was no longer in Těchonice.
    He was in a school on the village of Velenovy.
    And Velenovy was hardly 20 minutes,
    half an hour from Těchonice.
    And the road to Plánice sort of merge in a different places.
    And we, therefore, were able to reconnect again.
    We saw each other daily when he finally went to high school.
    OK.
    When Václav went in high school, I was already in the second
    year of high school.
    Václav was in the first year.
    And we walk together from village of Zborovy.
    About hour every day, we see each other
    in the recess noontime.
    We also saw each other afternoon walking [? on our ?] way.
    I visited him sometimes when there
    was a holiday in his village.
    He visited me.
    But that did not last too long, because his days in high school
    were counted, as was mine.
    Because we will then arrive to a critical year of 1942,
    where our lives changed.
    OK, at that point--
    I'm sorry that I'm interrupting.
    But I think that at this point it would be good for us
    to pause.
    I'm going to stop the recording for right now.
    This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust
    Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Robert Budway.
    Today is September 1, 2020.
    And we are going to pick up where we left off yesterday.
    And Mr. Budway, please take it forward.
    In school year 1941 and '42--
    in '41 beginning in September, that particular time,
    and in June 1942 it was the most eventful period of time
    for-- in my own personal life and including my friends
    and including my teachers and including the entire town
    of Plánice, where we were going to school.
    I will briefly describe what it was going to school.
    I was, at that particular time, the only pupil going from
    Těchonice and--
    or the village of Velenovy, where my friend Václav was
    already living for last two years.
    [INAUDIBLE] [? by ?] and we usually
    joined together in the village of Zborovy
    and continued to walk about one hour to our school.
    And we walk mostly on foot because it was rare
    that a young guy would have bicycle those days.
    And so that was our connecting.
    Every day we spent at least a couple hours together.
    When we that morning enter Plánice,
    where our high school was located,
    and you entered the main square, it might have been more than
    dozen of us youngster, mostly between age 12 and 14 or 15.
    We may have been, as every youngster group,
    a little noisy and a little boisterous.
    But we noticed at the end of the square a family which we knew
    was Jewish because by that time the yellow star of any member
    of Jewish family was highly visible in Plánice.
    We knew already a great deal of what was happening, too.
    So this-- excuse me to interrupt just for a second.
    You're saying this is a particular day that you go
    to school, you walk to school with your friend Václav.
    Do you know about what month it was,
    whether it was fall or spring?
    It was the spring.
    And it's important because that would be the year, in May--
    it was something in March.
    And then it's May there would be the assassination of Reinhard
    Heydrich, who came--
    who was acting protector who came with the Final Solution
    aim, as everybody know in history.
    We did not know that.
    But that is the important period of time
    when everything suddenly began to move fast.
    And everybody was affected by it one way or other.
    And Václav-- this Jewish family was the first sign of it.
    And Václav was that very same day also affected by it.
    That is the day--
    I estimate it must have been in March.
    So that's two months before Heydrich's assassination.
    More or less, yes.
    Can I continue?
    Mm-hmm.
    Please.
    We just were quite suddenly--
    we start in to whispering.
    And it was first time I realized that I had already
    been going to school for two years,
    I never saw Jewish children.
    But in this particular case I saw that family.
    I think it was a family of five or six.
    There were children there, too.
    And they too have a star.
    That was the first time I saw Jewish children in that town
    with stars.
    And there was a--
    also, realization that there were native [INAUDIBLE]
    students in that and they never mentioned anybody,
    any child, any Jewish child.
    Neither did I saw any in classroom in the school.
    So Václav didn't wear a star.
    I beg your pardon?
    Václav Florian did not wear a star.
    No, he did not.
    And his mother Jula did not wear a star.
    That is interesting thinking in what was going through at least
    my mind, because I knew intimately and closely Václav
    and his family.
    Not everybody in that town or in Václav classroom knew that
    Václav is from mixed marriage.
    Neither did we talk about this thing.
    And I have already, in my previous talk,
    mentioned how isolated certain villages were.
    They were not directly, every day
    affected by the new rules and regulations,
    which was much more visible in small town where all of the--
    where there were more a different kind of--
    there were already a bureaucracy in small town.
    And obviously, they would carry on with their job also,
    enacting all these rules and regulations which
    was coming on us so fast.
    Even we children just simply gave up to follow all of it.
    In Plánice-- excuse me.
    In Plánice was there a German presence?
    Were there any German soldiers?
    Would you just repeat it again?
    Yeah.
    In Plánice where you went to school,
    was there a German presence?
    Germans were not present.
    This is what you're asking?
    Yes.
    I mean, as far as the occupying authorities.
    No.
    There was a-- there was a gendarme who declared himself
    as a German Volksdeutsche.
    He was there previously, during First Republic and so on.
    Suddenly-- his name was Oberhell.
    And that will be very important to know in this talk, too.
    I take a note of it.
    Mr. Oberhell was a--
    served in some capacity as a town gendarme.
    He wore, from time to time, a uniform.
    And his wife was Czech.
    His name, obviously, Oberhell, was German.
    But of course, he must have lived
    in this town in the family for many, many years
    because his daughter also went to school in that high school.
    But at this particular day when I'm describing,
    she was no longer in high school.
    She already was in German high school in entirely different
    town, Klatovy.
    That is a footnote, but I clear up, simply,
    a few things about Oberhell.
    I did not personally talk--
    ever talk to him, encounter him.
    I only from time to time saw him in uniform.
    It was a protectorate type of uniform.
    It was not a German uniform.
    I see.
    But he was carry on, of course, certain duties there.
    And those duties I cannot today describe and would not know.
    But I know that his wife would play important part
    in a disaster which came few months later on,
    after Heydrich's assassination.
    But I don't want to get ahead.
    I would like to be a little bit chronological of what happened
    to Václav Florian.
    Sure.
    Sure.
    So I go back to Václav Florian.
    Before you do-- excuse me.
    Before you do, I want to make sure I
    understood Mr. Oberhaus' name.
    Is it O-B-E-R-H-A-U-S?
    Oberhaus?
    Yeah, I-- Ober, yeah, like German, O-B-E-R.
    And I don't know that "hell," Oberhell,
    but I believe it's H-E-L-L.
    So it wasn't Oberhaus, it was Oberhell, H--
    yeah.
    He lived, definitely lived in quite a big house
    at the beginning of the town, because I would see him
    early in the morning--
    not only, but most of us would see him either getting out--
    and I believe he has this job as a town gendarme
    probably for many years, because the town did have a city hall.
    And in the city hall, I think, was some small court
    which took, usually, care of small cases.
    And because people from the villages, from town to town--
    I know they had to go to Plánice, to the court.
    So there was a court there.
    But it must have been very--
    court which dealt with small cases.
    And it did have a city jail.
    It probably was--
    I never saw the jail, but I knew where it was.
    And it was up within the city hall, which was rather
    architecturally not important-- an important building, where
    I know occasionally is even someone from villages
    would spend a day or few days.
    So that was probably Mr. Oberhell's job.
    And of course, Mr. Oberhell declaring himself
    as Volksdeutsche--
    that set him apart during occupation,
    that you were on guard to be very careful what you say
    and how you behave, because Mr. Oberhell was probably
    not as mean and dangerous as he looked, but it was his wife
    who, later on, I learned--
    who was-- who caused a great tragedy in that town.
    But again, that is not part of what
    I want to say what happened this particular day walking
    to school.
    OK.
    Let's go back to that.
    Now, but we are getting in at school.
    Our school began already 8 o'clock--
    so very early.
    This, what I'm describing, must have
    happened between 7:00 and 8:00.
    We already knew that this group, this family
    is not the first one who was ready for deportation.
    But this was the first one we saw in such early days.
    And this, for me, was the first time
    I saw children with the star.
    And we heard, of course, in Czech that they were getting
    ready for so-called [NON-ENGLISH],,
    which I understand in English would be assembly point.
    Where that assembly point was I wouldn't
    know because that early morning there
    were a few people out on town who talked to this family.
    I know that they were upset.
    I saw tears.
    But we were quiet and didn't say much to each other.
    I see.
    And we went in classroom and we began our school day.
    And usually at 10 o'clock we would have a recess.
    And that recess would be done in the building
    because we didn't have a playground.
    There was only a garden.
    And it was a building which was built
    at the end of 19th century, with high ceiling, big walls.
    So we would have recess usually 10 minutes before 10 o'clock.
    And we would be walking those halls, quite orderly manner
    of boys on one side, girls on the other side,
    sort of circular way.
    And then we would talk.
    But this particular day when we had the recess,
    suddenly two friends of Václav Florian run to me because they
    knew that I was very close to him.
    And they excitingly and upsetly tell--
    report to me that Václav was taken suddenly out
    of the classroom and that it was the director of the school who
    himself came to the classroom.
    Oh, wow.
    And-- the director of the school.
    Yeah.
    And talked to this group to their teacher.
    The teacher happened to be Václav's homeroom teacher.
    And Václav was fortunate--
    his homeroom teacher actually taught Václav already
    in elementary school in Velenovy.
    So Václav and the teacher were acquainted to each other.
    And Václav felt comfortable with the teacher.
    And that teacher is going to be playing important part
    in this story, too.
    And apparently the teacher instructed Václav to take
    everything what he has around his desk, which was unusual.
    We didn't have much, but it was unusual request.
    And everything was carried out of where the director
    and teachers together out they took Václav out
    of the classroom.
    This is what was reported to me by the students
    during my recess.
    And then teacher quickly appoint somebody
    to take care of the classroom.
    And then, when teacher come back--
    it took some time before the teacher came back.
    That's what they tell me.
    He told them discreetly and with--
    exactly with some great discomfort what happened,
    that Václav will not be coming back.
    Oh, wow.
    And he told them that Václav has left school and is on his way
    home.
    And that is what caused me the turmoil.
    This is what have, I believe, affected me more than some
    of Václav's close classmate, because I knew him too much.
    And I felt it was a great deal of humiliation to suddenly
    walk out of the building alone.
    And he had to walk two hours alone back home.
    And I suddenly was aware with some anger.
    In fact, I feel sometimes this anger.
    But it was anger.
    And I almost felt--
    and I took the anger on the teacher and the director.
    But it was not-- anger not where I yell or scream.
    It was inside me.
    I felt, at that age, that directors and-- particularly
    director and the teacher had some power, some--
    that they can make decision and that this
    was really uncalled for.
    I'm now really emotional.
    I'm sorry.
    That's OK.
    That's OK.
    And so I was angry.
    Years later on I find out that my anger
    was displaced because both the director and the teacher
    did more than I had ever dreamed they would do.
    But at that moment I was angry.
    And I was angry, and I did felt very badly about what Václav
    had to go through.
    And I say to myself, I will visit him
    in his village between--
    soon as I will have time to do.
    So I must admit I didn't do that,
    because there were other things which was happening.
    So I-- was the last time I have saw Václav.
    That was the last time I have saw him for many, many years.
    Really?
    That day that you went to school together.
    For many, many years.
    So this--
    Together, yes.
    We met many years later.
    But to finish the day is that Václav was going home.
    And of course, his mother already
    was apparently also at home, ready to actually
    be taken away.
    That I only heard through the grapevine talk which
    takes from village to village--
    takes a few days to get this news.
    And that was also the day, apparently,
    his mother was taken away, but not his father.
    And what about him?
    Was he taken away that day?
    Václav was still in the village.
    And he would be there for the rest of the war.
    But he would be there and he would not be carrying,
    apparently, star because I--
    he never mentioned that to me.
    But he has younger brother.
    His younger brother was in elementary school
    in the village.
    So they were two boys suddenly without their mother.
    But their father was with them.
    Then I have learned that few weeks later the father
    was taken away.
    But by that time they already knew
    that the mother was going in Terezin.
    But they didn't-- but it was a different-- the father,
    he was in some place I don't recall,
    know the name of the place.
    But it was in central part of Bohemia.
    And he was in the labor camp.
    Labor camp and concentration camp
    were two different things, because I
    can speak of labor camp because eventually I would end, myself,
    in labor camp.
    But there were differences between concentration camp
    and labor camp.
    So they could communicate more with him.
    But he could not come home.
    And they did not see their father from that day, 1942,
    which was probably in March.
    Yes.
    They did not see him until 1945, in the middle of May.
    So their father survived.
    Father survived.
    They would also see-- the mother survived, too.
    She would come about few weeks later.
    So by 1945, at the end of May, family was reunited.
    Now, Václav--
    That I know.
    I did not-- that I know very well because I met Mrs.
    Florian, Václav's mother.
    I met her because she come visit my mother.
    But I am too much ahead of them.
    I just want to know that I was misplaced
    in my anger against teacher--
    So tell me how--
    --because Václav--
    I have a couple of questions at this point.
    Václav and his brother, then, stay in the village.
    But both parents are taken away.
    Yes.
    Does that mean they go into hiding,
    or they live normally like they had before?
    No, they're not going to be hiding.
    Václav parental-- the grandfather,
    his father's parents, were in the village.
    So they took over the care of the boys.
    I see.
    They were taken of the-- here's another word which we did not
    know.
    Their Aryan grandparents took care of them.
    And that was another word which we did not understand
    [INAUDIBLE] the language, because words like
    antisemitisim, Aryan--
    these were-- are words which we did not fully understand.
    But anyway, Václav was under the care of his grandparents
    and spent the rest of the time in that village.
    So tell me, why didn't you see him?
    Why was it that you didn't reconnect
    with him after he had left school and ended up staying?
    That is my trouble.
    I get-- within a few months I was in trouble, too.
    I see.
    And it did require a certain amount of time
    to get to that village, because I have to go to school.
    And somehow [? along ?] I always say I'm going to do it,
    I'm going to do it.
    That is what I was angry not only with teacher-- then
    I began to get angry with myself.
    I see.
    I see.
    So that is what the anger was.
    But when I finally met Václav after many years and asking him
    about that horrible day, that day how he [? walked him. ?] He
    corrected me.
    What did he say?
    He gave me interesting information.
    He say that both teacher and particular director
    were very discreet and explained to him very much what happened
    and why they had to do what they did.
    And the director walked with him all the
    away from school to the end of the town and promise
    to visit him.
    And he did visit him.
    At the end of school year he brought to him
    certificate that he completed that school year anyway.
    Interesting.
    Interesting.
    The director's name was [? Liperick. ?] And we did
    not-- as kids we did not exactly--
    he wasn't our favorite.
    We told him he was too disciplinarian, that he
    was a person with empathy--
    with lack of empathy for children.
    But in fact, Václav corrected me.
    And I was stunned.
    After so many years, my anger was waste.
    That happens sometimes.
    But tell me this-- what did--
    I find out that those teachers actually were far more
    concerned about our welfare, and particularly about Václav.
    And that director, [? Liperick, ?] actually did
    something what I would have never expected
    from anyone to do--
    to visit him even a couple weeks later in that village,
    what Václav told me.
    And at the end of school year bringing him what is in Czech
    called [CZECH],, which means that he was--
    he did receive, actually, very good mark,
    he say, on subject which he didn't even study.
    So that is what I learned on that particular day.
    But things took incredible speed.
    Before we knew--
    Hang on a minute.
    Before we go there--
    keep your thought there.
    But before we go there, you say many years later Václav tells
    you why they took him.
    So what did they tell him when they took him out
    of the classroom and he had to go home?
    What was their explanation to him
    as to why they had to do it?
    I learned that it all happened.
    They told him that this had been a receipt
    or a directive from city of Klatovy,
    from so-called Oberlandrat.
    Oberlandrat, that was a German office in Klatovy
    where there was, apparently, a department also
    which dealt with--
    which the antisemitic-- enforcing the antisemitic law
    and rules and regulations.
    So the Oberlandrat knew that there was such a person
    as Václav Florian?
    Right.
    Right.
    No, but it took some time--
    I see.
    --apparently, because we are already almost--
    close to three years the German occupation.
    That's right.
    That's right.
    But--
    It took some time.
    Was it, then, just a coincidence that it's the same day
    that you see this German family with the stars,
    that the two events have nothing to do with each other?
    The German--
    Now, that's--
    Is that so?
    That is a good question.
    I have also told of it.
    I believe that this order probably was coming,
    and it was probably coming on somebody's initiative
    that things are--
    they are not moving fast enough, that the local jurisdiction,
    which was the mayor's office of Plánice--
    mayor's office of any little town in the country
    were-- most of them were reluctant to carry these orders
    to the letter immediately, because I
    can give one example, a very interesting example
    later on which happens in a place called Velhartice.
    So that would explain it, because I attended
    only a couple of years ago an interesting exhibit
    in a Czech embassy.
    And I don't want to go.
    And there I find out something-- how this thing really
    actually work, how these local mayors were
    receiving these directives.
    And they have to carry it on.
    I see.
    I see.
    Because many actually carrying them out--
    Václav apparently was, at that day, identified as Mischling.
    I see.
    I wasn't identified yet as an alien--
    an American at all.
    I see.
    A few other questions before you go on chronologically.
    So for all intents and purposes the two events
    were not connected.
    But it could have been that a directive came down
    to speed things up.
    And getting that family prepared to go to the assembly point
    and getting Václav out of the school were those manner
    in which things were speeded up.
    That is my speculation.
    And it would had been.
    And it is probably 100% accurate.
    The next question I have--
    [INAUDIBLE] because these things were suddenly appearing not
    only in the little town of Plánice,
    but it was appearing nearby, in Horažďovice, too.
    So in Czech they would call it a "razia."
    Ah, "razia."
    Of course.
    It's a roundup.
    It's a roundup, basically.
    And I want to ask at this point, what kind of a young person was
    Václav What kind of a personality did he have?
    And what kind of a personality did his parents have--
    personalities?
    And were they very religious, or was--
    on either side, or was that something that
    wasn't very important to them?
    Václav seems to had a personality of his mother,
    very kind and sharing things.
    And he was a type of a--
    I might have been a little bit domineering type of a person.
    I might have been person to led him to those little boy
    type of adventure, going into forests and things like that.
    He sort of followed.
    So you were the ringleader, and he's the one who--
    No.
    He was more or less introvert.
    I see.
    So was he [INAUDIBLE]?
    But the generosity and good--
    something so nice about him was, I think, from his mother.
    I see.
    And something from his Jewish grandfather,
    because his Jewish grandfather-- if his Jewish grandfather was
    left to attend the store where the young couple has
    to go to-- we children, with few pennies,
    would go into the store.
    And I think literally he would give away the store.
    [LAUGHTER]
    So he must have fond of the children.
    He went into that jar, and instead of giving you two candy
    for 10 haléřs he would give you four.
    Aw.
    So we know very well, the gentleman as
    soon as we saw the oldest-- the [? young ?] going
    to the fields, then we knew old Mr. Schwartz is in charge.
    And we would be going.
    Well, children are very wise and very quick about such things.
    They know where their interests lie.
    And it's in the candy jar.
    So you mentioned that this razia was happening
    in another town nearby as well.
    What was the name of that place?
    This was Horažďovice.
    Horažďovice.
    Yeah.
    And, no, Horažďovice I can tell you far more,
    because Jewish presence was very--
    far more bigger than Plánice.
    I could not tell you how many families were in Plánice were
    Jewish-- most likely dozen.
    But Horažďovice I can easily give you some statistic
    because I was interested in Horažďovice in many--
    very early, and visited only twice during the wartime--
    once before the wartime and one after,
    once with my grandfather and one with my uncle.
    But that means-- excuse me.
    I'm going to interrupt.
    I'm sorry I'm doing it.
    But in other words, what happened in Horažďovice is not
    something you witnessed yourself.
    No.
    No.
    I witness other thing in Horažďovice.
    But the presence of Jewish community was far more--
    I think that in that particular section
    of the region of Klatovy that probably
    was a bigger community, Jewish community and presence
    than anywhere else.
    And you probably might have some records in your museum about
    Horažďovice.
    So let's go back to what you were telling me before.
    And that is the chronology of events of what happens after
    Václav is taken out of school and life goes on.
    And so what happens with you?
    Before we know, Heydrich's assassination.
    And the Heydrich assassination brings the end
    of any isolation in any place in the entire protectorate,
    Bohemia and Moravia, because after the assassination
    happened every hamlet, every village, every corner
    of the West are searched.
    The country was under martial law.
    I see.
    The country was under martial law.
    And I remember when it affected me.
    It was Saturday.
    I was not in school.
    I was in Těchonice, in the village, before noon.
    I was just bored and just sitting on big stone there.
    And most people in the village were in the fields.
    They were doing sort of a late spring
    type of work in the fields.
    And children were not required there.
    So I was there.
    And suddenly there is a tremendous panic.
    And my mother brings [INAUDIBLE] home
    but did not inform me what is going on.
    She had run into her cellar and start
    bringing in jars, clay jars of her creams and butter
    and throwing it all to the pigs.
    And suddenly neighbor's yelling, come, my children, my children.
    She did have quite a children.
    I thought that she didn't care about them.
    But she was absolutely--
    the people were simply not rational.
    Well, what-- excuse me.
    Let me see if I understood things properly.
    Your mother comes home, rushes in,
    and takes food that is cream that she
    has in a jar, and butter, and milk and things like that,
    and just feeds it to the pigs?
    I think she was under a bit--
    I know that, I don't think, because I
    remember the reason she did that thing, she thought--
    she already knew the Germans were in the village.
    I did not see it because I was at the end of the village.
    And apparently somehow, along without cell phone
    and other things, the people in all of these fields
    quickly knew what was happening.
    They--
    But tell-- yes, but tell us-- excuse me.
    Someone listening to this in the future
    will not understand, why would someone,
    when the Germans are coming into the village,
    run to take their butter and cream and feed it to the pigs?
    What does that have to do with one another?
    I will clarify.
    Her feeling was the Germans are coming for food.
    And of course, that was called hoarding.
    And of course, for that she would have to answer.
    And that was violation of laws.
    She could have ended--
    she would be lucky if she ended in the little cell in Plánice.
    She would end, probably, someplace else.
    And so she was mistakenly thinking
    they're going to do a house search for food.
    OK.
    But that was her first thought, is that it--
    That was her first thought.
    But the neighbor-- why was she suddenly concerned
    about her children?
    She must have-- knew a little more.
    And I think I can figure out why she knew more.
    She was not concerned about food,
    because my mother even offer her to take it from her.
    And she certainly had so many children,
    she would need that food.
    But she didn't plan it.
    She kept running-- my children, my children.
    So she must have known already that there
    was a village in the country called Lidice,
    and that Lidice was liquidated by the Germans.
    That it was not well known yet.
    But I think she had a relative who
    was close to village priest.
    And there must have been already knowledge of this.
    I did not know it.
    Neither did my mother know it.
    But there might have been people who already
    knew that this is coming.
    And apparently she felt differently than my mother.
    I see.
    I see.
    She reacted differently.
    So the first sign is that there's this panic.
    And your mother thinks--
    Yeah.
    And it was also first time this village ever
    come to see Germans.
    That's important, too.
    Because they never even saw Germans.
    This is the first-- and they arrived in great force.
    They arrive in large glory.
    I don't know, [? Even ?] 40 or 50.
    Many years later on I find it was a detach--
    attachment of Ordnungspolizei.
    I don't know if you know anything about Ordnungspolizei.
    Tell me, what is the Ordnungspolizei?
    But they already have a reputation burning
    and killing people in Poland.
    Ah.
    Well, there was the Einsatzgruppen that would--
    that were killing squads in Eastern Europe.
    Yeah, are basically in the Einsatzgruppen,
    but even one which was called Ordnungspolizei.
    I see.
    So they did the same sort of thing.
    Yes.
    They did the sort of same thing.
    And they must have come from a different place,
    maybe from Strakonice.
    And they went from village to village.
    And they selected Těchonice noontime.
    They're called the people of God.
    And what did they do?
    When they arrived, what happened?
    When they finally arrived in our house there were three of them.
    And within a moment my life--
    between that moment I realized that my life
    changed for quite a bit, because when they entered in the house
    they did have a few pictures like picture of a bicycle,
    picture of a gun, a picture of a raincoat.
    They wanted to-- they showed them to everybody in the house,
    and if they had seen this article.
    These paper-- these article was left
    on the site of the assassination of Heydrich in Prague.
    So to identify.
    But they were interested more into find out
    who lives in the house.
    And every house already, by that time,
    have social registration, a card, and which every person--
    this is, of course, one of the German occupation directives.
    Every house already have for years,
    during the occupation, this important registration card.
    It have every name, listed every person
    who live in the house, where he was born, when he was born,
    name, all particulars.
    This registry was important because ration cards
    were issued on the basis how many people were in the house.
    I see.
    I see.
    Now, our house was a little funny
    because there were three groups of people living
    in it-- my grandparents, whose name was Sebesta;
    my mother, who remarried and have different name;
    her husband, my stepfather.
    And she have another two children.
    And they were called [? Slivorn. ?]
    And then at the end there was Robert R. Budway,
    born in Oak Park, Illinois.
    Oh my goodness.
    And that was something she was--
    my mother absolutely not prepare.
    She was totally off with trying to get rid
    of her cheese and butter.
    Yeah.
    There were many things in the house which would have been--
    which immediately attracted them as they
    went into her best room, where there was on display all
    her knickknacks from Chicago.
    There were three big pillow, decorative pillow,
    which apparently she pick up in dime stores.
    And one of them has a picture of our first president, George
    Washington.
    The other had a picture of our hero, 1927.
    That was Lindbergh.
    And the third was a picture of Abraham Lincoln.
    And there was preamble of the Gettysburg speech.
    I did not know it.
    I know it today.
    And that was prominently all laying around.
    So obviously I was the target, immediate target.
    What did they do?
    First of all, they want to know more.
    And as-- the communication was problem.
    However, my grandma spoke perfect German.
    She was educated in a convent in Nepomuk, where they were--
    apparently she knew perfect German.
    Grandpa knew a lousy type of German, Viennese, which
    was nothing but full of slang.
    So he did not communicate.
    But it was Grandma who took over.
    My mother was simply out of control.
    She was not capable to function.
    But Grandma show herself what kind of person she could be--
    tough, and absolutely knew how to handle those Germans.
    It was unbelievable to watch.
    I already knew some German, so I understood how firm she was.
    I understood her intonation.
    She was making pancakes.
    Then she suddenly softened up and asked
    them to sit down and start to serve them pancakes.
    Oh, my.
    And they must have loved that.
    But they requested that Mother come up
    with the travel documents, passport, all of that thing.
    She brought her passport and documents
    in which I was, of course, listed, because in my case
    there was more documentation because Mother could not
    leave me--
    leave with me from United States.
    It was quite a bit of documentation.
    She had to have lots of court documents.
    So they went through it.
    And they immediately wanted to take me with them.
    Then Grandma absolutely pulled me back of her skirt
    [? around stove ?] and say, no.
    She will go.
    She point to her daughter and say that my mother
    will go with them.
    And then someplace-- I don't know how she accomplished that.
    And that's that Mother didn't have to go.
    But all the documents were confiscated.
    And she received the certain documentation
    and was asked, in such and such a time,
    to report to Klatovy, to Gestapo's office,
    that these documents will be there,
    that I will have to be listed and register as alien.
    So until that point you had all kinds
    of identifying documents from the States,
    from the United States.
    And I presume it must have been a birth certificate and maybe
    a passport, or if she-- you were listed
    in your mother's passport.
    But something that identifies you
    as being born here, in the US.
    Yes.
    And when you say your mother couldn't handle it,
    was-- did she fall apart?
    Did she cry?
    Was she nervous?
    No, she did not cry.
    She was simply very nervous.
    She was not able to get herself together.
    I believe it was-- she was overcome fear over me.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    That must have been that.
    I never questioned her later on that.
    But I look on Grandmother entirely different way
    from that day.
    Well, what kind of impression had
    you had of your grandmother before then?
    I think she was strong, resolute.
    And she was not giving any inch on anything.
    She could solve problems.
    She could solve problems.
    And she was confident [? and ?] [? things. ?] And she could
    dissect details.
    She stands for no nonsense.
    She was the disciplinarian.
    Grandpa was what is called very liberal,
    very permissive person.
    He allow me to do anything.
    But Grandma, no.
    She was strict.
    She was strict.
    She was apparently trying to make up for absent father.
    Ah.
    Now, was your mother's husband, your stepfather,
    there at the time?
    I didn't get the--
    I see.
    There were more people registered in the house,
    including two other children that your mother had.
    And--
    Everybody.
    Everybody was--
    Everybody had to be, at that moment, in the house.
    So everybody witnessed what I'm describing in the family.
    Everybody.
    My mother then went to Klatovy immediately next day.
    And we had some friends there.
    She stay there a couple days.
    They told her everything she had to take with her,
    including my picture, which she had.
    And she came home with a new document, new ID for me.
    And that was unusual.
    And because everyone in protectorate, at certain age,
    has to have what was called Kennkarte, ID cards.
    Yes.
    ID card.
    That was another word which we have to learn, Kennkarte.
    That was another Nazi Deutsch.
    So you had to learn words like Aryan, words like antisemitism.
    Yeah, Aryan, antisemitism.
    We did not know what it really, fully means.
    We began to guess, but fully we did not understand.
    Mother came with a document which was very impressive.
    It was a nicely, with a good cover passport.
    And it had a Hakenkreuz, the swastika.
    A swastika, mm-hmm.
    It has the Deutsches Reich, I think.
    Fremdenpass.
    So a foreign pass.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And it was not in Czech.
    It was all in French and Czech--
    French and German.
    And did you get back the American documents
    or did they keep those?
    The pass declared me--
    what was important about that Fremdenpass,
    that I was declared as being stateless, "staatenlos."
    Oh, that's interesting.
    I was declared "staatenlos."
    Means very well that I no longer--
    am no longer--
    I was totally under the mercy of German authority
    in the protectorate, Bohemia and Moravia.
    And I was at the mercy how long I could stay.
    There was a stamp there which allowed me
    to stay there for six months.
    And after six months I must personally
    present myself with the document, with the passport,
    with the Fremdenpass, to the Gestapo in Klatovy to renew.
    So but tell me, did she-- did they give her back
    your American documentation?
    No.
    Or did they keep it?
    They keep it.
    They keep it.
    They keep it.
    That I regret, because I will learn
    much more about my departure from United States
    at the age of four.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    I would not-- but my mother somehow did not
    give them my birth certificate.
    She had them apparently separate away.
    If she had it together then I would
    have been completely lost.
    So but this also means that they--
    in essence, they destroyed-- as much as they knew,
    they destroyed evidence that you're
    a citizen of the United States.
    Yes.
    And that whatever protection that
    might have offered at that time, if any,
    because by 1942 they are--
    the two countries are at war, even though the States doesn't
    land in Europe until-- the Americans don't
    land in Europe until June '44.
    You are then, as you say, without any kind of legal--
    you are at their mercy.
    You are stateless.
    Yes.
    I was just simply at the mercy of the German--
    of Gestapo, not even Oberlandrat.
    Already I was no longer dealt even
    with Oberlandrat, which would be more civil.
    And how old were you?
    At this point, how old are you, when this all happens?
    At this point I was not 14 yet.
    I wasn't 14.
    So that was a shock.
    But that was not the end of the shock.
    I would not dwell so much what it meant and what--
    where the consequences of this development for me
    for the rest of the war.
    I do not intend--
    I don't know if it is of any interest.
    But--
    Of course it is.
    Of course it is.
    Within days-- that was Saturday.
    By Tuesday Mr. [? Goresh, ?] the teacher of Václav Florian,
    was executed.
    Oh, wow.
    His wife was executed.
    The mother of one of my classmen was executed.
    That took place in Plánice.
    Oh, wow.
    Plánice.
    Now, that is different story, because the wives
    of the teacher, Mr. [? Goresh, ?] who was
    Václav's teacher--
    with her another lady, who was mother of one of my classmates,
    was Mrs. Novak.
    They were apparently shopping in a green grocery Shopping.
    They were buying some potatoes or something.
    And there was the wife of the--
    Oberhell's wife present.
    And apparently they talk about the assassination
    on Reinhard Heydrich.
    And the ladies make some innocent remark about that.
    And she carried that remark to her husband.
    And her husband, at that particular day,
    was visited by somebody from Oberlandrat from Klatovy.
    And it all fall in places.
    So they-- any--
    this was martial law.
    Country was on martial law.
    This was immediately-- they were immediately
    arrested, that very day.
    Those ladies who said these things?
    You see, her husband was not arrested,
    the teacher, because he was teaching.
    He was not arrested.
    But he apparently acted like my mother.
    He apparently cause scene, and they arrested him too.
    And why was the director of the school arrested and executed?
    No, he was not.
    He wasn't caught making any remark anywhere.
    This was not connected to Václav Florian at all.
    I thought you said the director--
    I thought you said the director of the school was executed.
    No, it was the teacher, the Václav teachers.
    Homeroom teacher.
    So was it the lady homeroom teacher who was arrested,
    or her husband?
    I will try to clarify it a little better.
    Teacher was Mr. [? Goresh, ?] who was a man who taught
    in the high school and taught and was a homeroom teacher
    of Václav Florian and my teacher on geography.
    And his young wife, who was pregnant with child,
    and another lady were shopping.
    And they were overheard make some remark.
    And that remark, I understand, that they
    agreed that good happening that Heydrich was assassinated.
    They approve of it.
    How they approve it nobody really
    can tell, what language they used and what terms they used.
    But so they were overheard by Mrs. Oberhell [INAUDIBLE],,
    wife of the town gendarme, who is Volksdeutsche.
    I thought you said she was Czech.
    He was a Volksdeutsche, but she was Czech.
    She was Czech, but he too spoke Czech.
    He was--
    Got it.
    I understand now.
    So she goes home and tells him, and he tells the visitors of--
    who are coming from the Oberlandrat from Klatovy.
    And of course, they have to act.
    He had no choice.
    He most likely-- in fact, after the war
    he was exonerated, but not his wife.
    His wife was executed, too, after the war
    in the restitution court.
    Oh.
    There was a tragedy [? compiled ?]
    was going on all after the war, continuously,
    because he himself would have not done it, in spite
    that he was a Volksdeutsche.
    So was it his--
    He would not have done that.
    But he had to act.
    So in other words, one can assume that when she went home
    she tells him, but in the presence of these visitors.
    Right.
    And the visitor was the men from Oberlandrat.
    OK.
    And so--
    In official capacity.
    So then the three people are arrested--
    the two ladies who share their opinion when they were shopping
    and then that geography teacher for yourself and the homeroom
    teacher for Václav, who's the same person.
    And his name was Mr. [? Goresh, ?] right?
    Yes.
    And then what happened with these people?
    Well, they were taken immediately.
    There was-- they were taken immediately to Klatovy.
    And they were immediately--
    within, apparently-- that was martial law.
    They were taken to the forest, which was called Luby--
    L-U-B-Y, Luby.
    It was outside Klatovy.
    And that was the killing field.
    They were not the first one to be killed there
    that particular day.
    And why-- and again, but then again I come to this question--
    that the two women are taken because they say these things,
    has a direct connection.
    But why is one-- why is the husband,
    why is the teacher taken?
    Because he was not the one reported by Mrs. Oberhell.
    He was executed, I think, day or two days
    later because we was acting up.
    He lost control, apparently say even worse thing publicly--
    I see.
    Front of these official, of German official.
    So he was immediately arrested.
    So it was-- his wife is taken and he loses his temper.
    He says something that gets him into trouble.
    Yes.
    It was understandable--
    Of course it was.
    --because I believe his wife was seven months pregnant.
    Of course it was.
    Of course it was.
    So he obviously lost--
    not temper, he lost senses of himself.
    And he scream.
    And he apparently-- if his wife only
    say some small little thing about good riddance of Heydrich
    or something, he say far more worse.
    And how did you learn of these things?
    This little very-- village learned very quickly,
    because immediately posters were printed
    and publicly pasted all around the town everywhere
    as a reminder of what is happening.
    And the posters state the name, the execution, where, and why.
    Oh, wow.
    And I have learned later from my classmate whose mother
    was executed that day too that they
    had to pay for those posters.
    In fact, he told me 500 korunas to pay that these posters were
    plastered everywhere in that town as a warning
    to rest of the people.
    Oh, my.
    Oh, my.
    This was going everywhere.
    If Plánice was what I'm describing,
    Horažďovice were far worse.
    But Plánice is what I saw, what I felt, what I know.
    I knew the people.
    I see.
    I see.
    And I was just as--
    well, in fear what is going to happen to me--
    Well, I can imagine.
    Of course.
    You were a 13-year-old boy.
    --with my Fremdenpass.
    So this is how the situation was at that particular time.
    This is the time when I witnessed Václav's humiliation
    and his family misfortune--
    his mother gone, his father gone--
    and teachers and other people being executed,
    and me suddenly find myself to be stateless.
    What happens then?
    Well, I have also a number of restriction,
    like all Jews did have restrictions I, however,
    was permitted to finish school.
    You were permitted to finish school?
    Yeah, I was permitted to finish school.
    But I could not be going into any other school any more,
    be it trade school, some professional school.
    All school of higher learning were anywhere closed already
    in a protectorate.
    They were closed.
    University were already closed as a result
    of some students uprising first year
    of the occupation in Prague.
    The schools were already closed.
    Only up to high school and some professional,
    like business school and things like that.
    I could no longer [INAUDIBLE] go.
    I have one restriction, which was fine with me.
    I could not be employed in any defense industry.
    That was all right with me.
    [LAUGHTER]
    Yeah.
    So--
    But anyway, I have many restriction.
    Also, my ration card was different.
    There were number of ration card.
    For example, the Volksdeutsches get different ration cards.
    The German official had a different ration card.
    A protectorate citizen had a different ration card.
    And people that are stateless, like me,
    have a different ration--
    the Jews have even worse.
    Jews were completely on the bottom.
    So these were the restrictions.
    So I knew that I-- and I, of course,
    had to report to Gestapo.
    And 50 Reichsmark paying for fee.
    That was a lot of money for somebody
    who wasn't making even one Reichsmark.
    Yeah.
    That's true.
    So does that mean the family paid for this 50--
    Well, yeah.
    At the beginning family pays for that.
    But at the end I pay for it because I was then--
    when I finished school, selected to work
    in a German hotel in Klatovy.
    And that was a completely where German--
    was 90% a German clientele.
    All the German high-ranking officials
    which ruled the entire district in the region of Klatovy,
    including city of Klatovy.
    And, of course, for military from Gestapo, from NSDAP.
    Again, I will start as a waiter.
    I have to interrupt at this point
    because there are certain parts between what you just told me
    and working there that I'd like to cover.
    So they allow you to finish school.
    But does that mean finishing that academic year or finishing
    all of the grades of the high school that you're attending
    in Plánice?
    Yes, I was able to graduate out of high school by 1943.
    So that meant that when this all--
    I was still one year there as stateless person--
    in school.
    I understand.
    So I'm going to try to get the chronology right.
    So Heydrich is assassinated in May, 1942.
    Is this correct?
    Yes, that is correct.
    The tragedies I have described was--
    the ending 1942, in May.
    So all of these things that happen
    happen very quickly after his assassination.
    So it's sometime in the second part of the spring,
    whether it's May, June, or something like that,
    that the authorities declare martial law.
    They come to your village.
    They discover that you have American citizenship.
    And you become stateless.
    So that means that the school year in 1942 is finished.
    The school finished within a couple of weeks, correct.
    Right.
    So the next school year they allow
    you to go for the school year of 1942 to--
    fall to spring of 1943.
    43-- and then I received my graduation papers
    from the school in 1943.
    And from that moment I was required
    to report to so-called "Arbeitsamt,"
    which was a labor office.
    And as a stateless person I--
    therefore they selected for me because there were
    restrictions where I can work.
    I see.
    So but nevertheless--
    And what I can do.
    Yeah.
    In 1943, when you finish your schooling, you're still, then,
    only 14 years old, going to be 15 years old in August.
    So you're still a very young person at that point.
    Yes.
    I was not 15.
    Yeah.
    And you have to then go and register
    with the labor department, this Arbeitsamt.
    And the Arbeitsamt then gives you this job at the hotel?
    Yeah, it was called Hotel Central.
    And it was under German control, under German ownership--
    I don't think it was ownership.
    And of course, there was incredible coincidence--
    the director of the hotel, or hotelier, whatever we call him,
    was--
    name was Alois Binder.
    And he has a mistress who was Fraulein Pressmar
    from Stuttgart.
    And they both were former employee of Baron von Neurath.
    And who is Baron von Neurath?
    Baron von Neurath was the first Reichs Protector
    of Bohem and Mahren, Bohemia and Moravia.
    I see.
    He was also first Reichs Aussenminister in Adolf Hitler
    first government.
    After him come Ribbentrop.
    Baron von Neurath was well-known diplomat
    of the Weimar Republic.
    Baron von Neurath also ended in Nuremberg
    in the dock as a war criminal.
    So I was really in quite interesting situation.
    And I learned fast.
    But it's also a rather elite type
    of-- even if you have very humble kinds of duties,
    it's an elite place to work while they're
    in control of the country.
    Or was it not?
    I mean, that's my impression, is that this Hotel Central,
    if it has all this type of clientele--
    then you are working for the cream of the Nazi crop.
    That is exactly what it was.
    However, of course, there were certain difficulties into it,
    too.
    I was treated at times, by the all-Czech personnel,
    very nicely.
    Anybody I have not, even in Arbeitsamt,
    who were Czech clerk who had to execute
    all of these directives, they--
    I was treated with great deal of discretion and empathy.
    I was treated, in a way, just like Václav was treated
    by director of the school and his teacher.
    I see.
    I must admit the Czechs who have to do this dirty job were
    in sympathy and empathy with--
    they realized who I was and what situation I find myself.
    They tried to make it as easy as they could.
    So do you think that they're the ones who
    made the decision for you to be at that particular hotel?
    I don't know.
    But in fact it was my--
    it meant to be tough.
    It ended, actually, as quite an education.
    I have really learned something about Germans
    of that generation.
    And I have learned something about, really what matters
    and what they stand for.
    I have observed them at a close range.
    I have some interesting experiences.
    I have survived that thing.
    And of course, I did spend almost more than a
    year and half.
    From the hotel I was then eventually sent to labor camp.
    Let's talk about the year that you were--
    year plus, some months, that you were at the hotel.
    And so we're talking now from summer of 1943 until when?
    To 1944, sort of close to the end of 1944,
    I was functioning there and learning the trade to be,
    waiter, and serving the German clientele.
    Occasionally I would also encounter other clientele.
    And there is one amusing Frenchman who
    had taught me a little English.
    But that's footnote.
    So did you speak any kind of German at this point?
    Oh, I was already--
    I actually had a better knowledge of German when I
    [?working at there?] because German was required all four--
    three years in high school I had German.
    I see.
    Everyone in protectorate had to learn German.
    German was a must.
    So I walk in Hotel Central with rather good German.
    And by-- within a couple months I was pretty good in German.
    So tell me about some of these things
    that you say you learned when you saw things up close,
    when you saw what Nazism was.
    Tell me about some of the episodes that
    stick in your memory.
    Well, the episode was they also have--
    it was a very modernistic, art deco
    type of hotel built during the First Republic.
    It was the best hotel.
    Of course, Germans would have nothing but the best.
    Therefore all of the Parteitage all of the Partei meetings
    would be housed in the hotel.
    So all the Nazi party meetings would be held there.
    Yeah, they would be all held in the hotel.
    There would be visitors arriving, which would maybe
    arrive from the Reich itself.
    They would be either military or they would also be civilian.
    And they would also be artistic.
    For example, I have saw one of the greatest opera
    stars in Europe, a Jew.
    Her name was Erna Sack.
    And manage-- I did not serve her.
    I only clean after her.
    So I had been witness to a lot of interesting--
    You say she was a Jewish person?
    Erna--
    I beg your pardon?
    I thought you said she was a Jewish person, this opera star.
    No, I don't get--
    I'm lost.
    You said that there was an opera star in Europe
    that you cleaned after.
    And you gave me her name.
    Do you hear me very well, or not?
    No, I possibly don't hear you very well.
    You mentioned an opera star.
    Opera star.
    Yes.
    The opera star was apparently coming
    there to entertain the troops, because there
    were three garrison of troops.
    Klatovy had a large amount of German military--
    I see.
    --including-- and it's the upper headquarters,
    including Gestapo, including the Wehrmacht.
    So they were a large group.
    And the opera star was apparently
    coming as all military were entertained by German artists.
    What was that person's name?
    Her name was Erna Sack.
    S-A-K?
    S-A-C-K. She was the greatest opera soprano on Europe
    at the time.
    Well-known in United States, too.
    I take a note of it because I was in [? awe ?] of that.
    Some of the Germans, the big-shot military with the--
    I was stunned.
    Well, so--
    And they were, of course, also interesting situations.
    More-- the personnel were all Czech.
    I was the only stateless.
    We were serving the German upper crust
    of the occupation in Klatovy.
    And I was the only stateless.
    Humiliating thing for me was, for example,
    to get my breakfast early morning.
    Kitchen was downstairs.
    And there were maybe 14 or 15 small plates.
    And on every plate was our breakfast.
    Let's say-- I would make one example.
    The Czech, the protectorate citizens, would have two--
    on the plate, two slices of bread with jam
    and a slice of margarine.
    My plate would have only one slice
    of bread and not margarine, but I would have the jam.
    Oh, my.
    And that's because of your ration card?
    Yes.
    And that was the humiliating thing, to pick up my food.
    Was always a little less than the Czech.
    And their rations were not abundant, too.
    Did the Czechs, though, in their behavior--
    those who were citizens of the protectorate--
    did they treat you differently?
    Or did this--
    My co-workers, no.
    I was-- actually had an excellent relationship.
    They were amazed that I'm American to begin with.
    And they, of course, were entirely
    in sympathy and [? same ?] feel that I
    have to go through what I have to go.
    And I was very close to them, develop close friendship
    and relations with all Czechs who were employed in the hotel.
    I have a correct relationship, too,
    with the German administration of the hotel.
    Yes, Fraulein Pressmar acted like--
    jokingly we say if Adolf Hitler would have 50 Fraulein
    Pressmars he would win the war.
    [LAUGHTER]
    Because she was definitely--
    I would not call her Nazi, but efficient, strict.
    That German efficiency.
    She was a picture of German efficiency.
    And she arrived early in the morning in the-- her rooms
    of the-- the restaurant room.
    And we were cleaning.
    I mean, we were working.
    We were working.
    If we were a little reluctant in something she used her hand--
    I mean, she was free with her hand.
    I see.
    So--
    And she used it.
    She would slap people.
    That's it.
    And I did get a few times, too.
    But I don't think that it was done--
    I think it was done because of her zeal of efficiency.
    Somehow [INAUDIBLE] we have tremendous respect for even
    that--
    it was sort of life-- hate and love relationship,
    because we learn great deal.
    Everything have to be just right.
    In German, pünktlich.
    She knew how to run the hotel.
    She was efficient.
    She was a picture of efficiency.
    Were there other personnel who were German
    or who were part of, let's say, the bureaucracy?
    Occasionally they had younger sister would come.
    And there was another Fräulein Hart.
    Fräulein Hart old German lady, and far more different.
    She was far-- she did not communicate with us,
    but when she did we saw a person who care about people
    [INAUDIBLE] people.
    These were the German personnel.
    They really run the hotel.
    Each of them have some responsibility.
    Fräulein Pressmar had the--
    actually, the restaurant and everything related to it.
    Fräulein Hart had [INAUDIBLE] the most--
    the [?team of?] personnel which dealt with the rooms
    and housemates and things like that.
    So everybody had-- the personnel in kitchen
    was Czech, was Czech.
    The boss, which was Alois Binder,
    was, of course, overseeing all of it.
    I have an interesting episode to relate.
    In my early days, when I was only
    serving beer, where I wasn't yet skilled enough,
    he was sitting with one German officer.
    Apparently he was a Stadt officer, Stab.
    And I mistake by Stab by Stall, which is office of the stables.
    Oh, God.
    And when I [? clean, ?] I try to do it with outmost
    correctness and tried to do it with certain elegance.
    And I put the stein of beer in front of him
    and say, jawohl, Herr Stallmeister And he jump.
    Instead of Stab I said Stall.
    So Stab--
    And he was offended.
    And my boss was sitting with him.
    My boss, though, was laughing and explained and cooled
    down the officer.
    So I would recognize that he was human.
    So your director, Alois Binder, saved you at that moment.
    Yes.
    And he was fluent in Czech, too.
    So obviously he must have been suited in German.
    I see.
    And received this plush job and control of the hotel
    as a reward being Czech cook of Baron von Neurath.
    That was a high position.
    And Fraulein Pressmar was probably
    something else in the household of Baron von Neurath.
    So therefore, that's why she was so knowledgeable
    and skillful and stickler for detail.
    How did you feel serving all of these people who were--
    who had such high positions in the--
    who had such power, basically?
    It was all pretense.
    It was all pretense.
    But we work many long hours.
    And the closing time was 11 o'clock.
    And at 11 o'clock many of them were not prepared to leave.
    And we were be standing on the side,
    and I daydream I would win the war
    and how I will take the ashtrays and how
    I will throw that ashtray on this and that officer,
    and that person.
    So obviously, there was lots of--
    and one of my colleagues did incredible thing.
    If I say this thing, it just remind me
    of George Orwell, who wrote something
    "ups and down in Paris."
    And we describe the way it is in the rich in Paris
    with all the fancy food.
    What can waiters do?
    But this particular older friend who
    was a waiter who was far more experienced, when he--
    before he took the food for German officers
    out of kitchen he had to pass through a passage of steps
    sometimes.
    I dare to say not only would spit in it,
    sometimes he would take a piece of meat and take a bite of it
    and put it back in the sauce.
    Oh, God.
    And we would learn how to treat them,
    for example, of their ration card,
    because they have a ration card.
    We developed skill of absolutely stealing.
    Well, how did it work?
    Oh, there were so many clever ways.
    We would carry a plate of desserts out of a kitchen.
    I was able to put six plates in my--
    I learned how to do six plates carried in one hand.
    It was interesting how you do it with your fingers.
    And I was able to squeeze even one more.
    It was very hard and difficult. That
    was the danger-- that everything can collapse that pyramid,
    you know.
    Of course.
    But what did it mean--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    When you--
    And every waiter had the scissors.
    The scissors was cutting the ration card.
    There was a way--
    regular soldiers were easy prey.
    They didn't pay much attention to how you cut the ration
    card when you were standing in front of them
    and taking their order.
    You would therefore learn to [? whisk ?
    your scissor and taking that fifth,
    five grams of fat, maybe.
    And you learn these skills.
    And it was a sport to cheat the Germans.
    And we done very well.
    So but when, let's say, you cut off more
    from their ration card, do you then
    have the chance to use that?
    Or is this simply--
    is there any benefit to you in a concrete way, or is this just--
    In a concrete way it was benefit,
    because I definitely learned German,
    which came in handy when I was in labor camp.
    Because that is later.
    My German was beginning to be so fluent that I
    can engage in any subject.
    And I will repeat only one episode.
    There was a situation in the restaurant itself.
    We served for lunch and dinners.
    There was one section which was in a easy--
    we call it boxes.
    The people had separate easy cushion an easy type of a chair
    where people were separating table.
    So they did not really have to look into each other plate.
    And it was called the boxes.
    And we have this Frenchman with his wife
    who suddenly show up in hotel from somewhere
    and speak in very loud French, and acting obnoxious, as we
    expect all the Frenchmen would.
    Nobody wanted to serve him.
    And somehow I ended serving him.
    And he somehow find out that I'm a stateless
    and that I came from America.
    And he start call me Monsieur Bobby.
    Monsieur Bobby.
    Yeah.
    So I become a Monsieur Bobby.
    And next-- and that was his--
    he was so called in German [GERMAN]..
    That was his table.
    And I would be serving him.
    And Monsieur [? Argiacon ?] required a great deal
    of service and attention.
    And there was a neighboring [GERMAN]
    that was Frau Ruprecht.
    Frau Ruprecht was the wife of chief of the Gestapo.
    And she would be sitting with her in-law,
    with the Gestapo chief's mother.
    And I would have to serve them, too.
    And she was tremendously impatient
    that I pay great attention to Monsieur [? Argiacon. ?]
    For her I was Herr Bobby.
    And for Monsieur [? Argiacon ?] was Monsieur Bobby.
    And Monsieur [? Argiacon ?] was very loud and very noisy.
    And she was annoyed.
    And she called me and tell me in nice German,
    tell that Frenchman--
    Herr Bobby, tell that Frenchman that he
    should slow down and remember he is not in Paris.
    And Monsieur [? Argiacon ?] understood German, too.
    And he immediately-- she didn't even finish.
    He told me, Monsieur Bobby, tell that woman-- he
    called her woman.
    He did not call her--
    I have to call her gnädige Frau.
    And so he--
    I didn't have to tell much because he--
    tell that woman to remember that she is not in Berlin.
    Oh, God.
    [LAUGHTER]
    He was absolutely [? that. ?] So I bow.
    I politely bow.
    But [? actually ?] my heart was--
    I was so delight--
    I love this moment.
    That was my finest moment at the hotel, my time
    in Hotel Central, where I did--
    pretended politeness, bowed to gnädige Frau Ruprecht.
    And I did not-- and anyway, translate Monsieur--
    or get-- relay to Monsieur French--
    Monsieur [? Argiacon's ?] message.
    I didn't have to relate it because she understood.
    She already-- but I related.
    [LAUGHTER]
    So these were-- there were many more moments.
    It was a moment where one learned
    how to outwit German, how to outwit every--
    Was there danger involved in any of this?
    There was a great deal of danger.
    And I only say one more episode which was truly danger.
    And it involved everyone, maybe about five
    of my fellow co-worker, waiters, and including myself.
    And it happened exactly on D-day.
    On June--
    And it happened on Tuesday.
    Tuesday was the day when hotel was closed.
    During the war there was a closing day
    for every business, one day.
    And only the hotel serve breakfast.
    And for that only one waiter was required to serve breakfast.
    And the rest of us were sleeping or having a good time.
    This was the day of rest for us.
    But this waiter who happened to have the duty
    on that 4th of July [INAUDIBLE]
    4th of June.
    --4th of June, when that D-day happened--
    there was a beautiful--
    because of German, we had beautiful radio.
    It was big set.
    It has many speakers and many things.
    One could get on the radio besides German classical music,
    which it mostly played--
    many stations.
    Of course, the Reich.
    And one can also get even England.
    Also, could they do BBC?
    Yes.
    And somehow along this particular breakfast
    morning this--
    on duty was, he's one of my co-workers.
    His name was Ludwig.
    And he was on.
    And he played with the radio knob.
    And there was nobody at this moment for breakfast.
    Usually it was very few people.
    And it was morning time for him.
    And he played with this radio.
    And he dialed the BBC.
    Oh my goodness.
    And he suddenly heard of the invasion.
    And he drop everything and run into room
    where we were sleeping and announce what is happening.
    Wow.
    And from this moment we-- and the next day we, of course,
    already-- it was announced on protectorate news, too.
    But we knew it already when it wasn't announced yet.
    We were few people in that hotel who knew it.
    But we kept it to ourself.
    But however, next day, before lunch,
    we have a small little place, a room, where we had early soup.
    All of them were eating soup.
    And one German-- usually we felt isolated and we felt secure.
    We felt we can say, among ourselves, anything
    which come into our heads.
    And somehow there was a very sharp-looking officer.
    He has been in hotel for some time.
    And he was absolutely sharp.
    And he was rather elegant and distant.
    He was a captain.
    He was young.
    And we don't-- and he-- of course we spoke to him
    in German all the time.
    At this particular time we thought we were secluded.
    We thought we were absolutely not earshot with anybody.
    And we certainly was debating how the Germans are getting it
    in Normandy.
    And we did not know-- for some reason he was walking by.
    And he listened to us behind the door.
    Oh.
    And he heard everything.
    And he [? burst ?] the door.
    And he look at us.
    And we knew this was a disaster.
    We knew-- by now we knew what it meant would happen.
    And he start to talk absolutely Czech, beautiful Czech.
    Oh my.
    And he told us, you-- he told us, you little fools.
    You ought to be careful.
    He gave us dressing down, and all in beautiful Czech.
    And we were so stunned.
    And we ask him, how come that you--
    we did not know that you can speak Czech.
    And he let us know he was a former Czech officer
    in the Czech army on the First Republic.
    Of course, he was Sudetendeutsche,
    Sudeten German.
    Oh my.
    Oh my.
    So were we lucky?
    You were.
    And we learned a lesson.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    And I will stop.
    There were many other episodes.
    But this one was eye-opening.
    We were caught on-- and there were six of us.
    And I will not go into detail how we, as teenager,
    absolutely green, raw--
    how we described Germans and what fun
    we had about the invasion, because by now it
    was clear the invasion was proceeding in Allies' benefit.
    We knew that that would be the end.
    And we [? act ?] and we were reckless.
    And I just want to say one thing.
    We mentioned, both of us, that it was June 4th.
    It was actually June 6, 1944, that D-day happened.
    But that's quite an experience, because you could have ended up
    just like your teacher and his pregnant wife
    and the other lady very easily.
    We knew it immediately.
    At that moment, when he opened the door
    and saw him in that sharp uniform.
    I do realize that because of his expertise
    in Czech that he must have been important
    in some Nazi organization in the town.
    But it was military.
    It was army.
    And his rank was captain.
    His rank--
    So we knew-- but after that time we did not know
    that he spoke Czech.
    So we learned quickly not to speak
    front of somebody and thinking that they might not
    understand Czech or German.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    But it was for good fortune nothing come out of this.
    I do not know how long he was there,
    but he didn't report anything, including
    to the proprietor of the hotel.
    Otherwise we would have known.
    He absolutely kept it to himself.
    And he gave us a good dressing down.
    That's quite an experience.
    I can understand why it stayed in your memory.
    It is in my memory because it was a close call.
    Was there any time when it didn't end so well,
    when there was danger and somebody paid
    the price for some kind of interaction
    with any of the clientele?
    No.
    And of course, there is Frau Ruprecht.
    I must go back to Frau Ruprecht.
    Frau Ruprecht appeared to me like exotic gypsy
    from the Balkans.
    But she was immaculately make up and everything make out
    of leather, everything well to do.
    We knew that she was--
    she was the wife of the Gestapo chief of the city of Klatovy.
    We knew she was important.
    We only communicate with her in German.
    But after the war, that is another story.
    Of course, she absolutely stunned us.
    Suddenly, after the war, she knew Czech too.
    Hm.
    Was she a Sudeten German?
    There is another episode which happened already
    in 1945 and in another place because she was apparently
    released after the war from Czech prison
    and ended on the way into Germany.
    And she stopped in a hotel, another hotel where
    I was already working after, and as a--
    and come to me.
    And suddenly, go [INAUDIBLE].
    She [? was ?] [? and ?] she recognized me and want to have
    a meal and talk to me in perfect Czech.
    But of course I had to decline the meal because the boss would
    not serve this German.
    Oh.
    That's a footnote to Frau--
    Ruprecht.
    --Rubrecht, because I recognized from then on,
    be careful to speak any language from somebody
    you think they might not understand you,
    because they will.
    There's always this.
    But that's a different story I might tell later
    on [INAUDIBLE].
    Well, mentioning what happened or what the-- your interaction
    was in the post-war year, immediate post-war,
    is also related to our topic, because she
    crosses your path again.
    And she was the wife of the Gestapo head.
    So that's not an inconsequential post.
    And the hotel proprietor where you
    worked after the war clearly knew who she had been,
    knew who--
    Oh, yes, because he would-- he certainly,
    before every meal was served--
    lunch would begin 12.
    The proprietor of the hotel or the director of the hotel
    would pass by all these [GERMAN]..
    And we bow to them and would use the German word [GERMAN]..
    So obviously he knew everyone.
    And we learned very quickly who these people
    were, too, because we have to know their station
    or what was--
    whatever.
    She was gnädige Frau.
    Of course she was Oberlandrat and so on.
    But what I'm interested-- what I was talking
    about now is after the war, after she was released
    from prison and she crosses your path again
    and you're working in a different hotel
    and the proprietor does not allow you to serve her.
    He knew who she was.
    We would be find ourself in a situation in Hotel Slavie
    in Zelezná Ruda, where I encountered those two Polish
    students who want--
    Jewish students who want to escape to East Germany and I
    am helping them.
    That was the place after the war.
    And I-- if I--
    you want me to explain this I would carry on and tell you
    how that happened.
    The proprietor of hotel was no longer proprietor.
    He was called, in Czech, "národní správce."
    He took control of the hotel from a German.
    This was a reverse situation.
    And the proprietor was Mr. Otto Tomasek.
    And he was a former inmate of Dachau.
    Oh my goodness.
    Oh my goodness.
    So obviously he watched for things like that.
    And Frau Ruprecht was apparently,
    after the war, apprehended in Klatovy and put in a jail.
    But for some reason she was released after--
    apparently, after a couple of weeks in jail and receive
    a ration card, and apparently [? ex-- ?] travelled on her own
    way into Germany.
    She had to take train from Klatovy to the border,
    which was Zelezná Ruda.
    And before she get out of train she
    have to cross the border in the proper place
    by the railroad station.
    She stopped in the only hotel who was open.
    And it was us, the Hotel Slavie, where
    I am already newly employ after the war,
    back in the hotel business.
    And my new boss is former inmate of Dachau.
    And what town was this in?
    Zelezná Ruda.
    That is a sort of a tourist attraction, mostly for skiing.
    This was not during ski season.
    A ski season was a big thing.
    And in German it's called Markt Eisenstein.
    On the other side it is called Bayerisch Eisenstein.
    And it isn't a good connection if one want to get to Munich.
    I see.
    So it is--
    And it was a border crossing into the Germany.
    I just looked it up online.
    Zelezná Ruda.
    And it is-- yes, in German called Markt Eisenstein.
    And it's in the Plzen region of the Czech Republic.
    Yes.
    And so this was the place where she walks in
    and you are working after the war.
    Yes.
    And your proprietor, who doesn't own the place
    but who manages the place, is a former inmate of Dachau.
    Right.
    And he knows-- he sees that either she's just a German,
    or did he know, actually, that she had
    been the wife of the Gestapo?
    He knew very well already that because the--
    her entrance in that restaurant, in that hotel
    was right at 2 o'clock.
    It looks to me like she planned it on purpose
    because by that time there was nobody
    in the restaurant itself.
    The lunch was over--
    lunchtime was over.
    And she suddenly entered with great bravado,
    recognized me, and yell on me, I have a ration card.
    Can you serve me something?
    I was taken quite back.
    I was almost back to days of gnädige Frau Ruprecht I seated
    her.
    I seated-- I was overwhelmed by her assertive conduct.
    Yeah.
    And she speaks Czech.
    Yeah.
    For the first time.
    This was a revelation to me.
    At that time--
    I never, during that time, knew that she
    was capable to talk Czech.
    This is a wife of former Gestapo chief of Klatovy.
    And suddenly here I am, 1946, probably, I think, in August.
    Suddenly she makes this grand appearance.
    But I think my boss, Mr. Tomasek,
    the ex-inmate of Dachau, must have been alerted by somebody
    else who saw her walking into hotel, who must know it,
    because in that particular place almost everybody knew
    each-- everybody, because there weren't too many people
    yet in that region after the war.
    I see.
    I see.
    It was still in a region where Germans
    had to play the reverse role.
    If the Jews were-- carried the yellow [INAUDIBLE] I mean,
    yellow star, Germans were marked with a white armband.
    They all had to wear the armband.
    After the war?
    After the war.
    And they would not be served and admit in any place--
    Czechs were playing the reverse.
    I see.
    Czechs were behaving-- getting even.
    So whatever happened to Mr. Ruprecht
    the head of the Gestapo?
    Well, obviously that is a mystery.
    I would never know that she was released--
    apparently she must have--
    and that she was foolish to be--
    I think her husband must have left her and run away.
    Ah.
    Yeah.
    He must have left her and run away because--
    and she was foolish enough to stay in Klatovy
    because I was not in Klatovy at the end of the war, really.
    Or I just-- at the end of the day.
    But then it was coming I was in labor camp.
    So I really don't know why some of these officials
    didn't run in time out of Klatovy,
    because they must have known what will end--
    what will happen to them, that some of these people
    were caught.
    But some of this not.
    The Gestapo chief of Frau Ruprecht
    was apparently not apprehended.
    He must have run out and left her there.
    I see.
    And she apparently could not give them any information.
    This is my guessing.
    I see.
    I see.
    This all-- [INAUDIBLE] at this moment I'm guessing I
    was just only shocked that she made the appearance,
    that we crossed again, because much has happened
    from the episode I am describing,
    Frenchman and Frau Ruprecht.
    Much had happened.
    Of course.
    Of course.
    So let's go back to that point and let's go further
    in the sense that you are working in the hotel
    until late 1944.
    '44.
    '44.
    Then what happens to you?
    Then, of course, the situation in Germany
    and situation for Germans have deteriorated
    to the point the shortage of labor was obvious.
    And they were looking for every possible resources.
    And they were building, also, defenses against invasion.
    And I was suddenly, as a staatenlos,
    as a stateless person, easy target to call to an Arbeitsamt
    and assigned to the labor camp, and transport--
    thereby transport from-- all the way to the very East front,
    to Silesia again, and to the Russian front.
    And I was assigned to build defenses
    because German army was retreating so fast.
    And somebody else had to quickly find defense position for them.
    So when you say Silesia, Silesia sounds like it's Poland.
    Were you in Poland?
    Yes, that was on the border of Poland, Silesia.
    It was and still--
    it was Czech, Silesia, but on the border of Poland.
    There's a big city I can locate.
    Czech city would be Olomouc.
    Olomouc.
    In Germany Olmutz.
    Olomouc.
    And Polish, [PLACE NAME].
    That area.
    It was a desperate situation because Germany
    was squeezed on--
    from the East, from the North, and from the South,
    from Hungary and Austria.
    [? Both ?] Soviet army was actually cutting the Germans
    from Slovakia.
    So I was in the northern part as one of their laborer to do
    these defence.
    Well, tell me, so you were sent to a labor camp.
    So you get dismissed from the hotel.
    Yes.
    I was released.
    It wasn't dismissal.
    I simply was simply called [INAUDIBLE]..
    And because of my staatenlos thing
    I was simply [? found ?] as a candidate before they
    would call anybody else.
    And there was a large contingent they had already.
    In my situation it was probably exactly what was happening
    in Plánice when I was observing these Jewish family to be
    a roundup for assembly points.
    The assembly point was Klatovy from-- other young people
    were suddenly assembling and ordered
    on a train transport from Klatovy all across to the East.
    It took couple days to get there.
    Ordinarily it should have been between about 10, 12 hours.
    I know that we were on the train a couple days
    because it was a--
    [? wood ?] was slowly [? whooshing ?] everywhere,
    from every side in the German--
    Germany itself and close to occupied Bohemia and Moravia.
    And trains did not move.
    Trains would stand, sometimes, idly, in same place for hours.
    And I believe the train--
    I estimated a couple times there could have been anything
    to 300 of us on this train.
    And were you-- what kind of facilities was the train?
    Was it a regular passenger train or was it a cattle car?
    No, it was-- you have a--
    on display in the Holocaust Museum
    you have a display wagon of a--
    where Jews-- people were transported
    to concentration camp.
    It was something close to it.
    I see.
    So it was like a cattle car.
    But it had benches.
    It had benches.
    We could sit.
    So it's a little different.
    It wasn't as bad what you have on display in Holocaust Museum.
    Because I remember visiting your Holocaust Museum quite often.
    And I put my hand all the time on that thing which
    you have on display there and tried to feel something,
    because I feel some--
    I'm debted to visit.
    I see.
    And so-- yeah.
    We were even given little package of food.
    It was terrible, but it also was not very good.
    It was a local bread.
    And it must have been so bad, because we all had gas.
    The smell was terrible.
    I won't talk about that.
    But it was not as bad what you have in Holocaust.
    So it was like a cattle car, but you had a place to sit.
    It wasn't--
    Yes.
    Right.
    There was a place to sit.
    And there was even some toilets where we could get into.
    I see.
    So it wasn't as bad.
    And we were provided, at the beginning, with some food,
    but not during the trip at all.
    So here's another question.
    You say it was near Olomouc.
    What was the specific labor camp name?
    That is [INAUDIBLE] you see, this
    is a different [? beast ?] than concentration camp.
    It did not have a name because this was all emergency
    action by desperate Germans to build defenses and build them
    fast and quickly by forced labor.
    And anybody who get caught in--
    like, in my case would get [? him. ?]
    And therefore we were build--
    we were housed in abandoned building,
    school building usually.
    So if you didn't have a name, near what town--
    in addition to Olomouc, was there another place
    that it was close to?
    Yes.
    I think where I would call this [? area, ?]
    because this is something where we could not orient ourselves
    so well.
    But I know it was called Repcin.
    How do you spell that?
    R-E-P-C-I-N. Of course, "R" will have the, again,
    [INAUDIBLE] so you have Repcin.
    And it was school.
    We did have certain liberties.
    It was something where Václav father was exactly.
    That was the motto of the labor camp.
    Now, excuse me, I'm looking for a place name.
    So it was-- you're saying that it was in a place
    called [? Zepcin? ?]
    [? Zepcin. ?] I think it was outskirts of Olomouc.
    I see.
    So it's really close--
    it's really close to Olomouc.
    Yes, it's very, very close.
    And because we were marching, then, up North to build these
    fortifications we were--
    in the camp we was in the hands of the director
    or whatever you will call people who were operating
    the place where we were sleeping and eating,
    and were operated by Czechs--
    by Bohemians and Moravians.
    However, the work was supervised by Germans,
    by-- it was supervised, I would say, by expert engineers,
    and also guarded--
    we were guarded by not SS, or we were not guarded by Gestapo,
    but older men in what was called Storm Troopers.
    Storm Troopers.
    But the Brownshirts.
    They were armed.
    They have rifles.
    And you were building what kind of fortifications?
    Mostly, I think, for retreating artilleries,
    because I am very familiar how it was builded.
    The reason for it is that within a couple days the engineers,
    who were interested in efficiency and build it--
    they were not interested how we live.
    They were not interested to make our lives miserable at all.
    They were interested in efficiency to build it.
    It was the Storm [? Trooper ?] who
    were guarding us for security and safety or for anything.
    They, therefore, needed somebody to translate,
    because I was surprised that nobody knew German
    as well as I knew.
    And in one ditch by which we were describe how to do,
    suddenly everybody was lost.
    And the engineer suddenly recognized that--
    I don't know how it happened, that I did say,
    is it a-- oh, a 50 centimeter?
    Is it an 80 centimeter or so?
    And he just told me, one and a half meter deep.
    And so before he knew it, I spoke German.
    And he make me a Dolmetscher.
    Dolmetscher is translator.
    Translator.
    Translator.
    Translator.
    And of course, that relieved me from digging.
    However, it was something I didn't really--
    I realized it within a few days.
    I didn't want it to be because, in fact, I
    would be in concentration camp called Kapo.
    I would be the favorite German.
    You would be the favorite person of the Germans.
    I was their favorite because I have to translate it.
    All these boys who were very much same age--
    some younger, some older.
    I have to translate it.
    So I was the German lackey.
    And their resentment was quick.
    Was it really?
    And I realized that.
    So I quickly switched.
    I quickly, instead of following the order,
    following the direction how to--
    which direction to dig, which direction to do,
    what to do, I quickly say, boys, this is what he is saying,
    but this is what I think you should do.
    Don't do that.
    Do this.
    He say do it 20 centimeter here.
    Do it 10.
    And in spite, I play what Czech used to call "Švejk."
    [LAUGHTER]
    You understand--
    Yeah.
    --what "Švejk" is [? it mean? ?]
    Well, "Švejk" is that novel written about the good soldier,
    Švejk.
    I believe it was in the beginning of the [INAUDIBLE]..
    I simulate everything.
    I just make everything in fun.
    I play a dangerous role, too, because it
    backfire on me, because these engineers were no fools.
    Within a couple days they recognized what I was doing.
    I was caught.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    And what did they do?
    And it was consequences of it.
    And again, I was lucky.
    But that's-- I [? am spending ?] time on this.
    I will continue.
    Yes, please.
    So I find myself to be Dolmetscher.
    But I quickly recognize that's the role I did not want it,
    because I actually was more popular play American.
    And I play the American.
    And I played to the hilt. And I was
    sort of mystery guy of their--
    what I was doing them, that was a mystery to everyone.
    And I could play it like Hitchcock.
    Wait, this you have to explain to me.
    So you-- what I has been able to follow
    is that in order to avoid the jealousy and the anger
    of your fellow Czech laborers, forced laborers,
    you then tell them the wrong instructions.
    And in a few days the German engineers
    catch on to what you are doing.
    Because when then they did construction of this defense
    position-- the positions were apparently
    planted for heavy artillery, for heavy guns,
    because it was circular.
    And he recognized we were building entirely
    something else.
    And so what did they do to you?
    So he knew-- he recognized that in spite
    that I was fluent in German I wasn't
    giving the instructions what he was giving
    me to tell and translate.
    So what kind of measures did he take against you for this?
    He recognized and he stopped.
    He come, and there was a ditch.
    And it separated me from a ditch.
    And he let me know.
    He say, I know what you are doing.
    I know.
    And you are going to be sorry for that.
    And he-- in fact, I--
    he actually revealed himself that he didn't trust any of us.
    And he knew that we were not to be a reliable worker,
    that he has people who are forced to do it.
    He knew it.
    And he always tried to scare us and tell me
    about what is coming, that we are
    naive that we think that the Russians are
    going to liberate us.
    And he really let me have it.
    And of course, that was it.
    And I immediately wised up and tried
    to figure out how to create some kind of excuse.
    I know he didn't believe me.
    But I came with the excuse that I had misunderstood that it was
    [INAUDIBLE].
    And he said, you let me-- you explain it to me.
    And so when day was over and we marched back into the camp
    I relate this thing to the director
    of camp, what happened to me.
    The director of our camp knew that I was staatenlos,
    that I was American.
    And [? he ?] [? had ?] all this empathy.
    And he say, you are in danger.
    You have to write letter.
    Let's state this thing.
    You have to disappear.
    And was the director of the camp Czech or was he German?
    He was Czech.
    He was a Czech teacher who apparently was also
    a forced laborer.
    And so but the German engineer said
    that you have to speak to this Czech director?
    That's the reason I have confidence to relate to him
    what I did and what situation we are all.
    It wasn't only me.
    It was all of those workers who were building it wrong way.
    I see.
    I see.
    Because therefore I had to report this in order
    to let me get into that school.
    So I did report that thing.
    And [INAUDIBLE].
    So we come--
    Excuse me.
    Something is wrong with the sound right now.
    I don't hear you very well.
    I hear you very well.
    Now it's better.
    Now it's better.
    Now, the director said, we must write-- at least
    we start with the letter.
    And we start with the letter.
    And we did with the letter.
    And then I say, well, how do we end this letter?
    Then I realized that-- let's play real Nazi.
    I realized that is the first time and only time--
    and this is where I would call myself the collaborator.
    I signed the letter with Deutscher Gruss, heil Hitler.
    And who was the letter addressed to?
    To the chief engineer.
    And what did you write to the chief engineer?
    I write to him excuse that I did not understood the direction,
    that I regret that we [? that-- ?]
    I promise that we will do much more better.
    It was nonsense.
    Of course.
    Of course.
    It was nonsense.
    I handed the letter next day to him.
    He look it.
    He read it.
    He read the letter without comment.
    He put the letter in his pocket.
    But the problem was the SS man--
    not the SS, SR, NSDAP man.
    The old-- his name was Miller.
    Because he watched that continuously.
    He was actually not only watching me
    and the laborers and [INAUDIBLE],,
    he also watched the engineer.
    I believe they didn't trust each other, too.
    So I more expected worse from the Storm Trooper
    who was in uniform of--
    the well-known uniform which Adolf Hitler
    appeared so many times, the Brownshirt uniform.
    So of course, the engineer was in the army fatigues,
    a thing [? like that. ?] I knew that he was the chief engineer,
    that he has a certain rank and certain knowledge and ability.
    And he was interested in job being done and done
    fast and accurately.
    So he didn't say anything.
    And to my surprise, I was left to work on that day.
    And everybody, of course, who knew--
    all these workers, all these boys
    who were my co-conspirators knew that I was in a jam.
    They knew that worse will happen to me.
    They immediately change.
    They recognized that I had to play straight, and therefore,
    accept everything I have to say.
    But the director of the camp knew
    I would be eventually in trouble.
    So he figure an ingenuous way to get me to do something else.
    He knew that I had some background
    as a waiter in a kitchen.
    So he find work for me to be oversee in the kitchen.
    And I was suddenly deployed by him in the kitchen detail.
    And he knew that I couldn't be there too long,
    that I would be inquired from either the engineer
    or the Storm Trooper where I am.
    So he told me, you will have to get out of here.
    So you have to escape, basically.
    You have to escape.
    And of course I know where the railroad station were.
    And he said, pick up two other boys with you.
    And I pick up two boys from my region,
    from the region not too far from Plánice.
    In fact, one was from Plánice and one was from village
    of Neprochovy.
    And we are going such and such a time evening.
    We're going to be let out.
    And we're going to go railroad station, the main railroad
    station.
    And we going to get to Prague.
    So you go to the main railroad station in Olomouc.
    Olomouc, yes.
    But because we already live couple months in such isolation
    we really didn't know the changes
    which took place all in the town, in the city,
    and at all in the country.
    The railroad station was in chaos overcrowded.
    There was no departure.
    There were no what was called departure or arrival.
    there was no schedule posted anymore.
    There were just haphazard train moving and going and coming.
    There we faced the biggest challenge and danger.
    And this is about when?
    Is this now-- we're talking the winter of 1945?
    We are talking, already, April.
    Oh, we're talking April.
    We are very close to the end of the war.
    So you are in this labor camp.
    In Olomouc, in the railroad station,
    I believe Adolf Hitler is still alive.
    But he is-- it must be around--
    it's after his birthday, so it must be well after 20.
    So but let me establish this, then.
    You were in the labor camp for four months, five months?
    How long were you there?
    About four months.
    So it's right after New Years that you're in the labor camp.
    Yeah.
    These were months which took a tremendous change.
    In fact, the front in the West were going faster than
    in the East.
    I find later on that the Americans
    were holding on the gates of Klatovy
    while I was still in the East.
    Yeah.
    They were actually moving fast from the West
    then they were moving east.
    So here we were.
    But it was a complete chaos And there
    I endangered, again, the situation.
    My two Czech compatriots were depending on me,
    with my knowledge of geography and German, to take the lead.
    So I was very naive.
    Today you would call it stupid.
    I asked nicely, politely the German three soldiers who
    were-- apparently had drunk, laying close to the floor,
    if they know which is the next train going next to Prague,
    because we could not see anything.
    And I did not realize that they were drunk.
    And they were deserters.
    That I didn't know, too.
    But they reacted.
    Very drunk.
    And they were on that [INAUDIBLE]
    and they have gun right away aim on my head.
    They were just-- my two--
    bodyguard?
    No, they were not bodyguard.
    My-- I'm sorry.
    I'm a little confused.
    But I know what I'm talking about.
    I know.
    I know.
    My two Czechs are standing by.
    And I know this is my moment of true.
    Should I throw myself on the ground and roll,
    because I know they will shoot?
    And that is a process, a mental process
    with how quickly should I act?
    And suddenly one of my Czech compatriots there,
    who knows nothing but few words in German,
    throw himself with open arms on the German
    and call him comrade, comrade.
    And I run.
    I clear out.
    That was my way out.
    And different part of station.
    And I don't know how long it took, but our--
    my savior did find us hiding--
    a little [? of ?] [? that, ?] too.
    And he had cigarettes.
    He had number of things.
    And he laughed.
    He say he-- all he did was to kept cursing in every curse--
    Czech word he ever know and curse them.
    And they were just drunk, and they gave him stuff.
    But he never find out any departure of train
    and never find anything.
    We quickly arrive that there were vigilantly
    walking through the railroad station,
    and they were Hitlerjugend.
    And they were apparently looking for these deserters
    of the Wehrmacht.
    This was probably why these three German drunk soldier
    react to my polite German.
    Oh, I see.
    That was why they react with that-- how they react.
    I was too nice.
    And that was, I think-- we realized that we're not going
    anywhere asking any questions.
    So we get to the station, to the ramp of the station.
    And there stands train.
    And it was direction going to Prague.
    We just get in the train.
    And it move about in half an hour.
    But we knew immediately we went on the wrong train.
    It was train loaded with wounded soldiers from the front.
    It was horrible.
    I realized this was a military train.
    And we hardly pull out of city of Olomouc,
    and it actually was--
    not derailed.
    We did not know that a partisan action and resistance were
    already waiting out of cities.
    And we simply have to get out of train.
    Train derail.
    So they derailed the train?
    They [? redail ?] the train.
    There was emergency.
    And there was an action of partisan.
    It was again our not know--
    four months in this isolated-- we were not totally isolated,
    but we did not know that that situation in the country is not
    the one--
    when we were riding from west to east,
    that we were in a war zone.
    That things had changed so drastically,
    because you had been so isolated for so-- for those four months.
    There were no [INAUDIBLE],, no regulations [INAUDIBLE]..
    No civilians were allowed to travel certain distances
    unless you have a paper and reason
    to go someplace, which we did not have.
    There were number of emergency rules
    which we knew nothing, which we have
    to learn as we're going out.
    We did not know that there is such a resistance,
    a partisan group already moving, attacking, already
    retreating Germans, and that we get
    by mistake in military train.
    And we didn't get too far.
    But at that moment when the train did have to stop
    and was derail.
    And everybody was going out and half of it
    was in a different direction, we realized,
    clear out of here and on foot.
    No more trains.
    And so what did you do?
    From on on my two compatriots has to depend on me.
    I had a good knowledge of geography.
    Excuse me.
    I need to interrupt for a moment.
    There is some other kind of noise going on
    as you're speaking.
    Can you-- are you jiggling something?
    Because there's some other kind of noise that I'm hearing.
    OK.
    I will check quickly with my-- check with my son.
    He may be doing something downstairs.
    No, no, no, no, no.
    It was very close to the telephone.
    It was-- were you handling something?
    It's stopped now.
    It's stopped now.
    So let's keep on going.
    I think it's my wheelchair.
    Ah, maybe that's what it is.
    Maybe that's what it--
    I will therefore lean forward.
    I won't [? do it. ?] Well, we start to go on foot.
    And it's a long way from east, from Silesia, to West Bohemia.
    Of course.
    Of course.
    And I don't-- and we encounter many, many things.
    But we were somehow--
    guardian angel-- we made it.
    And I am not going into one air raid when we find ourselves
    trying at the passing Prague.
    And we were already in the center of Bohemia.
    We were getting close to city.
    And we want to get into Plzen.
    And we find out there are no trains.
    Then we find out the American Air Force
    has a total control of airspace.
    And anything which move on--
    they were just waiting for and attacking everything.
    And we witness one of attack.
    One railroad station from which we were hoping we
    would be able to travel a little short leg to Plzen.
    From big city already we're in the territory
    which we knew what to do.
    But that was not to be.
    There was air raid.
    And it was on.
    And on that station, apparently, there
    was a young Hitlerjugend guy.
    And how did he find himself there, standing against window?
    I was standing [? next ?],, but in a safe place.
    And somehow, when the air raid come
    and everything start to move and windows start to come up,
    he was apparently hit by this flying glass.
    But I did not know that.
    I didn't see that.
    I only can conclude that is how it happened, because I managed
    to get out of railroad station.
    I managed to get across the little creek, which
    was like little river, across to a few bushes
    where I would hide.
    Was this in Plzen?
    That was in that little town called Sdice.
    You might not-- it's on the way to Plzen.
    But we are not in Plzen.
    I see.
    That was where we were hoping we would catch train.
    I see.
    We were told that sometimes evening train might move.
    And we were hoping, by watching and sitting in that station,
    waiting, that train might come.
    It was wishful thinking.
    That's how we were caught in this little station in--
    railroad station in Sdice.
    How do I spell Sdice?
    Did you find it?
    No.
    Can you tell-- can you spell it for me?
    S-D-I-C-E. It's right south from Prague.
    It's on our way--
    Sdice, and then come Beroun and Rokycany.
    It's very close-- it's hardly 40 miles from Prague.
    Got it.
    Got it.
    And from there we were thinking we get into Plzen.
    And from, with some local train or some way
    we will get to West part of our country.
    I would go to my Těchonice.
    The other guy would go to his town of Plánice.
    And I could clearly give them directions.
    I knew where we were.
    How did you get to Prague, eventually,
    from Olomouc to Prague?
    We walked.
    You walked.
    You walked to Prague.
    We walked.
    And we found out we could--
    we find out that we could not travel from Prague
    to Plzen at all.
    There we find out that we were lucky, on a railroad station
    to find, when we asked to buy a ticket--
    and there was a young girl who was maybe
    hardly year older than me.
    And she quickly could see that we were running.
    And she quickly tell us, I can't give you
    a ticket because you don't have any paper that you
    need to go to Sdice.
    But I am going to give you ticket.
    But I can-- no, she said, I can't give you ticket to Plzen,
    but I give it to you to Sdice, because after Sdice
    comes Kontrolle.
    Oh, I see.
    And so you can get--
    and maybe later in night you might find a train.
    So we were fortunate, again, to get just a little hop.
    Little hop.
    And there we find ourselves waiting for the [INAUDIBLE],,
    for the train which may come, because as I say,
    American Air Force, with planes which we call divers,
    [CZECH] or something--
    they dive.
    They simply are accurate.
    And they finish anything which move.
    And they-- apparently there was something
    on the railroad station.
    There were some trains and something.
    And that was the attack.
    And we were just caught in.
    And there was a little creek, and I find myself across,
    laying and hoping that I will survive this attack.
    And next to me is this Hitlerjugend guy.
    And he-- I admire his belt. I admire his knife.
    He have knife, sort of a German type of Hitlerjugend have--
    I simply was in [? awe ?] of that part of his uniform
    and his corduroy pants.
    And he was picking--
    he was bloody.
    He was picking up eyeglass parts out of his hand.
    And he was cursing.
    Verrückte Amerikanische.
    Oh, he was yelling and speaking.
    And he find every curse, German curse on the--
    cursing the American gangster.
    Yes, because--
    And I say to myself, if he only knows one of them
    lay here right next to him.
    [LAUGHTER]
    That's right, that one of these--
    That was the irony of-- irony of that.
    I see him as the day.
    I see his hand.
    I see that blood.
    And from then it was over.
    I reunite with my two friends because this, of course--
    and things like that, at that age--
    we pledge each other friendship and that we stay to each other.
    But when moment of truth arrive we all scatter and every man
    for himself.
    Sure.
    This moment was clearly learning.
    I learned something about myself,
    that I was concerned suddenly by my safety
    and they were concerned about their safe--
    but we finally reunite and decide, no more ever
    try anything.
    Just walk.
    So you decide at this point you're going to walk.
    Well, and don't try to go through my main highway.
    Forget about going straight.
    You're looking for-- from now on we fully
    realized we were in [? just-- ?] we were in war zone.
    We realized country was full of surprises
    to us, full of unexpected things.
    And we did find ourselves, even in our walk,
    into a situation where I was in danger more
    than my two Czech friends.
    We were in a little town called [? Venishep ?] or something.
    And there were two gendarmes--
    these were protectorate gendarmes, Czech policemen.
    But we call them četníci.
    And one was younger, one was older.
    And they absolutely knew quickly that we were running,
    we were on the run.
    We were absolutely in sad shape.
    We were also hungry.
    And we were also dirty.
    And the youngest stop and want immediately identification.
    He want immediately Kennkarte.
    And I have to come with my Fremdenpass.
    And he was so zealous.
    Apparently he did not understand English, neither--
    I mean French.
    And neither did he understood French and-- or German.
    But the older [INAUDIBLE],, I remember
    how he talked Czech to him.
    I remember that his name was [? Pepic. ?] [? He goes, ?]
    [? Pepico, ?] [CZECH],, which meant, just leave it.
    Let them go.
    Leave it.
    But this guy was determined that he would detain me.
    But the older one somehow convinced him, let me go.
    So we get we had to be even more careful
    not to even go to any place at all, just looking for forest.
    But anyway, there is more to it, but I
    think I'm taking you away from you--
    what you want to really hear than telling you
    about my homecoming from this forced labor camp
    during upheaval, which was at that time 1945,
    at the end of April in central of Europe.
    Well, this is--
    I was waiting until we--
    I was wondering, first of all, are we
    at the end of the war yet?
    When you're going through this you
    say that you escape from Olomouc about the time
    that Hitler's birthday had passed.
    And that's April 20.
    And then there's only three or more weeks
    left before the war ends.
    So were all-- was this entire trek from Olomouc
    back to Western Czechoslovakia taking place
    during those three weeks?
    Yes.
    For this trip we took more than week--
    I know.
    --what I'm describing.
    My homecoming I was not in shape to do much walking or doing
    anything.
    My feet were bloody.
    My homecoming-- I won't describe that right away.
    But if I will continue, then, we finally make it in the south
    of our country, call in the city of Blatná.
    Blatná is the southern part Czech--
    and we are close.
    I already know that we have to turn to the right, to the west.
    And I already know that it will take a matter of hours
    and we will find ourselves on the road home.
    But we spend the night in the railroad station at Blatná
    because we did not want to spend it outside.
    And there was hardly anybody inside the railroad station.
    We are spending it in the waiting room that night.
    And it was a night of--
    where we were close to a point we
    have had it, as they say here.
    We are absolutely-- are we going to make it?
    We have to try.
    We are not only in sad shape, we are hungry.
    Of course.
    We are hungry.
    And we are afraid to any [? ask ?]
    and come to contact with people.
    And we know we are close.
    So we have to make it.
    We get out early in the morning, early,
    before anything we can-- and we get in country road.
    And we finally get into a little town which--
    and this is early in the morning.
    And we suddenly know that we are close to the war zone.
    We heard artillery.
    We already know that on the left side of-- us
    we hearing the front.
    So we are a little bit--
    [? let's ?] [? play. ?] We begin to be a little bit like
    a chicken.
    Well, of course.
    You're scared.
    Who wouldn't be?
    We begin to-- and we were hungry.
    And we are moving into the village, which later on I
    realized was called [PLACE NAME]..
    And we moving in a hill.
    And on the road is a farmer.
    And he's doing something.
    And he take one look on us--
    he take one look on us and he says, boys, let's go with me,
    [CZECH].
    I mean, he did not ask anything.
    And he took us in his farmhouse.
    And it's the beginning of the village,
    beginning of the village.
    And he get us in the farmhouse.
    And his wife-- and he order breakfast for us.
    And lord, she make eggs for us.
    And there was coffee.
    There was bread.
    Well, it was unbelievable.
    It was unbelievable.
    We were fed suddenly.
    And he gave us very good direction of where to go,
    what to do.
    He may have introduced himself, but in that confu--
    in that shape we were like in trance--
    Well, you were--
    --because I mentioned that if anything bigger thing had
    happened in me until--
    on this episode it was this.
    Forget the German encounter.
    It was this encounter of somebody
    human and compassionate and giving us to eat
    and giving us direction.
    And we are not showing much of gratitude.
    We are just taking.
    And I was [? bad ?] all my--
    all years about this encounter, that I
    neglect to ask about the man name, everything.
    But I remember the hill.
    I remember the farmhouse.
    I remember it so well.
    It has ending, and it is not a good ending,
    because I remember him 1962, on my visit, when
    I visited tourist as a Czech--
    as American tourist and being--
    and I'm being taken into custody and charged
    on espionage and subversion.
    During my stay in 1962 and visit I reconnected with this man.
    I reconnected and find out that his name was [? Maching ?]
    [? Novak. ?]
    And I came to visit him with [? Brenda ?] early
    in the morning as a tourist, as a business--
    as a grown-up man who had been around the world
    and suddenly remembered that this
    was the place where I met somebody with so much help
    and compassion.
    And I wanted to say thank you.
    And it was unbelievable.
    I find out so much that this was true patriot,
    true person, true character.
    And he-- soon as I appear, early,
    on his courtyard where I met him after so many years, he say,
    I know.
    I know.
    I know who you--
    you are one of them.
    I met you.
    He recognized me, too.
    And he [INAUDIBLE] went in the house
    and he ordered same breakfast.
    Oh, gosh.
    Oh, gosh.
    And he talk.
    And I let him know who I am and what I--
    I take his address.
    And I say, I'm staying in such a place, Těchonice [INAUDIBLE]..
    I'm just visiting here.
    I just dropped in.
    And I'm glad I find who you are.
    And I will let you know, and I certainly will remember you
    when I go back to America.
    Well, I gave a goodbye and was very emotional.
    And of course, within a few days he pick up his son--
    they have a motorcycle.
    And they drive and find the village of Těchonice visiting--
    with the intention to visiting me.
    But I wasn't in the village because I was always
    someplace else.
    But they visiting my grandmother.
    So there they make connection.
    They left a letter for me.
    And this letter was [? find ?] [? up ?] when I was arrested,
    on my possession, and his address.
    And I'm not going to do that, because this
    is long and complex and horrible story--
    how it ended for a man of character because he was draw
    into my affairs [? are, ?] which was nothing but stupid
    and foolish thing.
    I was not a spy.
    I was not there to do any subversion or anyone.
    I was just naive person who had--
    full of nostalgia, want to retrace steps which
    were so meaningful in my life.
    I'm going to summarize this a little bit
    and see whether or not-- you tell me whether I understood it
    properly.
    What you're talking about is, in the last days of the war,
    before you even reach home, when you and your two friends,
    your two compatriots are at your--
    are at the final stages, where you
    haven't eaten, where you're hungry,
    where you've been walking for such a long time--
    and one morning-- and you're avoiding people
    and you're avoiding train stations because they
    could be dangerous for you.
    And one morning, as you were already
    in the Western part of the country,
    you meet up with this farmer who takes you home, who feeds you,
    who--
    so you have some food and sustenance for the first time.
    And you feel bad because when you leave you don't say
    thank you or you don't remember his name or whatever.
    You don't acknowledge that as much.
    And so the next time you are able to,
    which is when you visit the country in 1962--
    and that's about 17 years later--
    you stop by.
    You visit him.
    You say hello.
    You leave your name.
    He knows who you are.
    And he then goes and leaves a letter for you
    in your town, where your grandmother gives it to you.
    And then, during this visit is the time
    where the Czech socialist Soviet authorities arrest you
    for espionage.
    They find this letter.
    And he, in some ways, is--
    has a great many unpleasantness because he is then
    involved in your case.
    Is that correct?
    It is so correct that you make me feel ashamed--
    Why?
    --because you summarize this beautifully.
    It was exactly-- that is a short and precise
    what it was all about.
    So in other words, you had wanted
    to say thank you to the man.
    And--
    That was the purpose.
    --because of your contact of wanting to say thank you
    he then gets into trouble.
    And was he able to extricate himself
    from this trouble in 1962?
    Yes.
    I was eventually, as you know, released six months later,
    was eventually reaching back Washington, D.C.,
    and assume my normal life, and with much more
    chastised with my experience, but much more richer.
    And I kept least written contact with him.
    I send him at least greeting.
    And I kept minimum contract with him in writing.
    But very careful knowing my experience what happened.
    But in his case, because he was a [? patrioted ?] Czech and he
    apparently had a large [? farmer, ?] and his farm was
    confiscated.
    His family was driven out of that village
    into entirely different region.
    And he died naturally as a result of it
    in very early age, which was only not--
    he was only 67 when I learned from his son where he died
    and under which circumstances.
    And certainly, I feel guilty.
    I see.
    So are you saying that as a result of your visit
    the authorities realized he had a big farm,
    and then they confiscated it from him?
    That is, he came into the attention of the authorities.
    Yes.
    That's tough.
    That's really tough.
    And then I find--
    can I continue?
    Yes, please.
    When I finally arrived to Těchonice--
    and, as I say, our house is at the end of the village road
    to Plánice I was only left with my--
    one accomplice, who had two hours more to go to Plánice.
    I saw my grandmother splitting wood in the courtyard.
    But she did not recognize me.
    She did not even much pay attention when I--
    Excuse me.
    I'm hearing that noise again.
    Oh, my problem.
    I'm sorry.
    She apparently did not recognize--
    I must have looked horrible.
    And she did not recognize who am I. And then I suddenly spoke.
    Did she come out with [INAUDIBLE] and that country
    and that [INAUDIBLE] this is [INAUDIBLE] Bobby.
    And Jesus, Maria, this is Bobby.
    This is [INAUDIBLE].
    And from that moment there was a commotion.
    They put me on some chair.
    They put some water on my feet.
    And I must have passed out.
    And I must have slept very long hours, maybe two days.
    Maybe two days.
    And when I did woke up I did [? explain ?] I already
    learned that Adolf Hitler was dead.
    I already learned from them that war is nearby.
    And I already learned from them, you sit tight.
    Don't go anyplace.
    And I suddenly felt I should visit Klatovy.
    But that would be [? suddenly-- ?]
    and unfortunately, I wouldn't listen to them.
    And there was no way to get to Klatovy but walk.
    Why did you want to go to Klatovy?
    Because I want to know what was happening in Hotel Central
    and with all my friends there.
    And I was also a little worried about that I was really,
    actually, illegally on the way.
    I want to reconnected.
    I did not know that Klatovy was close to war zone.
    It was plain stubborn and foolish.
    But anyway, I made it to Klatovy.
    And I pick [? up ?] a day.
    It was May 5, May--
    5th May.
    And it was a very historical day.
    I couldn't pick up a better day to be in Klatovy,
    because when I arrive and head for Hotel Central
    I found it was no longer Hotel Central.
    It was made out to be an army, Lazarett,
    which is a temporary hospital, taking care of wounded.
    Simply hotel was not there.
    So I turned back.
    And now as I walk to the main square,
    suddenly sirens and everything incredible commotion start.
    I did not know.
    I find it was interesting that when I entered Klatovy
    it was quiet.
    There were very few people on the road, practically nobody.
    I should have paid attention.
    That was odd.
    Klatovy and people in Klatovy knew far more
    than I can ever get.
    They knew and they expected, this
    is the last day of German occupation,
    because this was a day that suddenly, German signed--
    German authority in Klatovy signed capitulation of Klatovy.
    Excuse me, something happened again.
    I didn't hear you.
    The Germans did what in Klatovy?
    Germans did sign-- they signed the--
    Capitulation?
    They capitulate.
    They capitulated to Czech authority.
    And the Americans were not too far.
    Americans were actually a few miles back of Klatovy.
    I see.
    And I happened to be, in that moment,
    in Klatovy on the day of liberation.
    That's amazing.
    I just pick a day to see the end of war in Klatovy.
    And it was different day in Těchonice,
    where I also [INAUDIBLE] It was a different thing to be there.
    And of course, the excitement and everything
    was unbelievable that day, when suddenly all of those flags--
    where all those flags came up from--
    Czech flags, American flags.
    And then all these people on the square and the commotion.
    But it was not without violence, because I think everybody
    was too enthusiastic to--
    it was euphoria.
    It was just-- everybody act irrational, including me.
    What did you do?
    Well, in that moment I was standing in Klatovy.
    And I was trying to destroy my German ID.
    I have a document which [INAUDIBLE]..
    And I was tearing it apart.
    That was the wrong thing to do.
    Fortunately, I did not have my Fremdenpass,
    because I would be without ID.
    I was-- as people were trying to get rid
    of German sign, German symbol, German this.
    I was trying to do something visibly.
    So I tried to get rid.
    When you say you try to get rid, were you
    trying to get rid of your Kennkarte, your ID
    card, or your Fremdenpass?
    I did have a written recommendation which--
    and it had my picture.
    And the picture would have been interesting show me, really,
    the way I look at that age.
    I had tremendous loss of weight.
    I certainly looked fake.
    And I would have liked to show what it was like,
    the end of war, that I did not look right.
    I destroyed it.
    I destroyed it.
    But I suddenly-- suddenly there was a commotion and big crowd
    of people.
    These were Czech vigilante-- let's call them vigilante--
    who took the laws into their own hands prematurely,
    before Americans entered the city.
    And they went into a location where Gestapo was.
    And they went in the location where the NSDAP headquarters
    was.
    And they apparently located Herr Green.
    Herr Green was an absolutely harmless Storm Trooper.
    And he did not look like German super man at all.
    He was obese.
    He looked like an ape.
    He certainly was not a picture of a super race, super man.
    And he was actually not even second fiddle.
    He was actually nobody in that organization of NSDAP.
    And he was actually [? pulled ?] to stay in that headquarters.
    He was absolutely-- he looked abnormal, subnormal.
    And he must have asked someone.
    He must have [? shoot ?] out of the headquarters of the NSDAP
    building.
    And he was apparently captured and beaten.
    And [? on ?] the entrance of Herr Green with the vigilante
    was nothing but [? mass ?] of [? blocks. ?]
    Well, was he beaten to death or was he still alive?
    He was not beaten to death.
    Irony, again-- he lived long enough--
    and I have actually find out, when I was, 1962,
    in a jail in Plzen.
    I [? simply ?] find up somebody who remember Mr. Green.
    He was imprisoned in [? Renumines ?] in-- near
    a city called [? Februm. ?] And he was still there in 18--
    I mean, 1957.
    So Herr Green survived.
    But at that time, at that day, he
    did not look like survive-- not like he would survive.
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    They were not-- what was left at that moment I will not
    describe in detail.
    But I already went and stayed there,
    waiting for Americans to arrive.
    There were delegations.
    There were everything.
    But Americans were not coming.
    And I was waiting.
    And it was already 6 o'clock evening, 7 o'clock.
    And I knew it will take me four hours to walk back
    to Těchonice, home.
    So I finally left, 7 o'clock.
    And that was the wrong thing, to walk that night
    when Klatovy was liberated--
    walk during the night on the main road back to Těchonice.
    I encounter lots of German army personnel.
    Some of them I would not know their ranks or what branch
    of service they belonged.
    They were, of course, fleeing and trying to get out.
    They must have the bad conscience.
    And somehow or another I made it to place which is called
    Nalžovské Hory today.
    From there, which is hardly half an hour to Velenovy,
    where Václav's--
    to Florian's home.
    And it is night.
    It's practically midnight.
    And I did not know this little town
    and little village of Velenovy has also vigilante.
    And there was a little turn and there was a little
    bushes and little--
    some-- this tree.
    And there was a shortcut.
    And I get that shortcut during the night.
    And suddenly I'm being hugged.
    The vigilantes were--
    Czech vigilante was waiting in the night.
    And they have only a flashlight.
    And they asked for identification.
    And I'm already so close to home.
    And I had nothing but that Fremdenpass.
    And when they see Fremdenpass with Hakenkreuz, with swastika
    and with all of that thing they are ready to shoot.
    They think they got the Germans.
    And they had with guns.
    They have weapons already.
    They had [INAUDIBLE] [? now. ?] But anyway,
    before they [? do ?] [INAUDIBLE] I talk Czech to them.
    They call somebody, and somebody come around.
    And it is one of my classmate from high school.
    His name was František [? Labart. ?]
    And he say to them nicely in Czech, [SPEAKING CZECH],, which
    means, boys, you are dumb.
    This is Bob from Těchonice.
    So they would have made big mistake.
    And there are lots of apology.
    And they let me go.
    And I kept going to Těchonice.
    I expected that some fools in Těchonice are going to be
    vigilante, too.
    But I glide into Těchonice close to midnight.
    Nothing.
    Těchonice were rather sleepy already.
    And went to sleep.
    And early in the morning I wake up suddenly.
    There's a great deal of commotion.
    Somebody's running.
    And everybody is calling Maria [CZECH]---- that's in Czech--
    we need you.
    We need you.
    Americans are here.
    And everybody, apparently, in the village
    remembered that she is the only one who
    can communicate with them.
    She's the one who was in Chicago.
    Yes.
    So she knew that she could communicate.
    So I [? get way ?] ahead.
    My mother, of course, wouldn't run into her early attire
    from cows and everything.
    So she put some clean dresses or something on.
    And meantime I made it.
    I run.
    And sure enough, in the middle of village
    there are three Jeeps.
    And they are GIs.
    I think there were about six of them altogether.
    And they have machine guns, wire close to the Jeeps.
    And I think this is apparently an advance patrol, advance
    patrol.
    And they are suddenly in the middle of the village.
    And all people all around.
    And I come.
    And everybody made [? room ?] for me because they also think
    that I might know English, or sure I knew because Monsieur
    [? Argiacon ?] taught me a few phrases.
    And it was all very English.
    I bow and say--
    I say, how do you do?
    [LAUGHTER]
    And this GI-- and GI, they busted in laughter.
    Incredible laughter.
    And I was taken away while they were laughing.
    I know from little later--
    I just didn't realize, within hardly two years
    I will be wearing same uniform.
    That's amazing.
    Two years.
    And was an absolutely-- and with my little [INAUDIBLE],,
    I am so and so.
    Good morning.
    Suddenly my mother appear.
    And that I never knew about mother--
    up to my date that was a different woman
    than when she was facing the Ordnungspolizei in the house
    search, when she was lost and did not know what to do.
    This woman suddenly knew exactly what to do.
    She was in no time in full swing and conversation
    with them, answering every sort of questions,
    including when all the women will arrive and ask her
    in Czech, [? Marchino, ?] ask them
    how is our Pepi doing in Baltimore, which was funny.
    [LAUGHTER]
    That's funny.
    It was funny.
    This old woman had her relatives in Baltimore.
    Mother's laughing too.
    I say-- so she asked them where they are from.
    And these boys were actually from places like Ohio.
    I remember it sounds funny, Ohio, to me at that time.
    And they were also from Pennsyl--
    but thankfully they were not from Maryland.
    And they knew nothing about Pepi from Baltimore.
    However, the old woman was not entirely off base.
    I learned after many years that actually, her grandson--
    that was her grand--
    her grandson was actually in Sušice in US Army.
    Isn't that interesting?
    Yeah.
    But at that time it sounded that she was asking
    for the impossible thing.
    But that's another side of the story.
    But that actually is finally--
    I am feeling, finally, I am in Těchonice.
    Country is liberated.
    I am seeing a liberator.
    I am seeing Americans.
    I am one of them.
    And I am feeling glory.
    I am feeling great.
    And that day-- that day I never forget.
    And of course, they wouldn't stay in Těchonice
    because they--
    as mother told me later, they were advanced patrol.
    And they were sent on a patrol because Těchonice were
    surrounded by forest.
    And they were, of course, [INAUDIBLE] mother,
    did she see any German, did they have any weapons?
    Things like that.
    Yeah, of course.
    Things like that.
    And of course, then they thanked her.
    And of course, all the people around her
    are asking of Mother--
    of course, they call her [? Marchino-- ?]
    ask her-- because they were smoking,
    ask them for a cigarette.
    And before I know my mother--
    I never knew could actually ask for things.
    I would be little ashamed.
    Without any shame she asked them for this and that.
    And of course, that's the first time I saw chewing gum.
    I saw this because she was without shame asking them
    for things, including cigarettes.
    Amazing.
    Amazing that-- yeah.
    But it was--
    And of course--
    This was May 5th?
    Was this May 6th or May 5th?
    This was May 6 already.
    This is morning 6.
    This is after Klatovy.
    And there is, therefore-- and they are being [? known ?] they
    are in large number in town of Stríbrné Hory,
    today Nalžovské Hory, which is hardly our--
    and so that day everybody who was anybody in that village
    and could walk walked to Nalžovské to see the US army.
    I was ahead of time.
    By the time I met my mother, who was [? on the hill. ?]
    She had number of things.
    She had a can of tuna fish.
    She had some cheese.
    She had some tooth powder.
    She have so many things-- so she have chocolate because she was
    asking left and right .
    She was in talk with them and talked
    with the women who were, of course,
    eager to find out what should they cook
    for these Americans, what--
    the Americans have enough to eat.
    They didn't need to.
    But they did cook for them.
    And I witnessed a first American field kitchen in the war
    because they were feeding the troops who were stationed
    and temporarily occupying this little town,
    which was an important [? point ?] on the way
    to Klatovy, on the way to Horažďovice,
    on the way to Sušice.
    It was important point.
    How many of [? them-- ?] they have tanks.
    They have communication systems.
    That was enough for local population
    to see that the army was well supplied and abundance
    of everything, and that they were generous to everyone.
    And then they set up the field kitchen.
    And there were, [? I ?] [? remember, ?] [? a ?]
    [? place ?] distributing food.
    We could see how they well-- they were organized
    and how well they were fed.
    And they suddenly had two crates of oranges.
    There were children there in line
    who were looking who never saw oranges.
    And what was interesting--
    the army who was in charge--
    I wouldn't know who was it then--
    lined up the little kids for oranges.
    And I remember that we-- all the kids want to get in line, too.
    But he's only gets the children who were up to maybe
    age of six or seven.
    But everybody get oranges.
    So from then on my situation's entirely different.
    I and Mother suddenly got important-- we find ourself
    that people suddenly looking for information
    and looking for [? reference. ?] I couldn't give much,
    but my mother certainly have lot of things to say.
    That, however, created problem for her later,
    when the communist regime established power
    in Czechoslovakia.
    That was her problem.
    Well, I'd like to--
    I was no longer in the country.
    But that was our best time for her and for her to--
    I realized that she knew English very well,
    that she could commune--
    she told me later that there were times where
    I think she must have stumbled.
    She said there were certain terms, military
    which she did not know about.
    For example, I know that she have
    problems with arms and guns.
    Ah, yeah.
    So with her-- she knew what the guns was,
    but apparently she mistake a few things.
    She said that took her some time to figure out
    what they really were after.
    But otherwise her communication--
    because they actually want her to stay there and be
    communicating with them.
    She stayed absolutely for absolutely a day there.
    I did not see where she was in some military post,
    I think in some place where they have radio station.
    They sent us immediately some [INAUDIBLE] communication
    system.
    And that's where she was.
    I was with the rest of the kids around.
    So that is the end.
    I'm not-- was the end for Václav in Velenovy because he was
    there, too.
    So I think that there are just a few things for us
    to cover later.
    I don't think that we're quite yet at the end of your story.
    You have a-- there are a few more questions that I have.
    And I would like to schedule another day.
    Can we do that?
    Would that work for you?
    Tomorrow?
    Tomorrow I cannot, but Thurs--
    Which day?
    It would be Thursday, probably around 3:30,
    something like that.
    Would that work?
    That's fine.
    That's fine.
    I will only think that the most important thing for you
    would be the story of the Polish student.
    And also, I want to find out what
    Jula told your mother when she comes back from Theresienstadt.
    That would be interesting.
    OK, fine.
    I will be ready.
    I am home almost every day.
    I don't think so--
    my son is going out and shopping himself.
    This is a continuation of the United States Holocaust
    Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Robert Budway.
    And today's date is September 3rd, 2020.
    So, Mr. Budway, when we stopped speaking the other day,
    it was just about the time when you experienced liberation,
    first in Klatovy and then in your own home
    village of "Technovice."
    Is that correct?
    Yes, Těchonice.
    Techonice.
    And you mentioned something about how your mother's English
    became something quite valuable at that time
    because American soldiers appeared.
    American soldiers were the ones of the Allied forces
    who liberated that part of Czechoslovakia.
    So can you tell me what happened next,
    and how did this affect your family?
    At that junction, of course, there was excitement,
    there was hope, that life will entirely be different,
    and we will revert back what it was like before the war.
    That was a fiction, which was quickly dissolving day by day.
    I knew that I could not stay in Těchonice for too long,
    that I had to continue somehow my career as a waiter.
    So I left after all this excitement and after everything
    to Klatovy.
    Yeah, I'm listening.
    I left for Klatovy.
    I quickly recognized that there will be not easy things
    as it was before because Hotel Central was at that time
    occupied by a German hospital.
    The hospital was cleared quickly.
    The Americans moved in.
    The owner of the hotel was nowhere in sight.
    The Germans were no longer in streets.
    And they were now in assembly places,
    in turn either in the public places and military.
    They were not visible.
    And, of course, I heard they were treated quite harsh.
    But my problem was how to reconnect again
    with life in Klatovy and do something useful.
    Hotel Central was definitely out of the question
    because it was devastated.
    And the Americans finished it quite well even there,
    because they were short time only.
    And I hang around.
    And I make connection with them.
    I don't know if it is worth to talk
    about my experience of reconnecting
    with my countrymen?
    Tell me about it because did you let
    them know, for example, that you are an American citizen?
    Yeah.
    I didn't have to do that very much because I have a problem
    where to find a living space.
    I have to look for a room.
    That, of course, means that I have to go to the city hall.
    And, of course, the worst situation, then personnel
    in the city hall change in spite that Americans
    were real combat, open arms, and there was jubilation.
    There was a new constellation formed.
    And the city was no longer what it
    was when it was united against the German occupation.
    Now city began to be fragmented.
    Political situation began to be visible.
    The countries who had only four political parties, that
    was a definitely good development, instead
    of having 20 during first Republic.
    However, [INAUDIBLE] were visible in places
    like city hall.
    The city hall suddenly to be called the National Council.
    It was called "národní výbor."
    I would translate it as a National Council.
    These councils where in every village, every little town
    suddenly.
    Somehow mostly even wherever I was,
    they were dominated by members of Communist Party.
    That became clear although their aims was not clear and visible.
    But I was no longer--
    it wasn't easy to move in that city hall.
    When I requested that they find a room--
    and there should have been lots of spaces because Germans were
    out--
    the city definitely did have enough
    to accommodate one single guy.
    I find difficulty definitely and hostility.
    So as I walked out at city hall, on the corner
    was already military office which
    deals with civilian security.
    It was American military office.
    And, of course, I no longer was showing my Fremdenpass pass
    to anybody.
    But I did have my birth date certificate from Oak Park.
    So I walk into the place and somehow
    along, I manage to communicate what my problem was.
    And was your problem--
    And--
    --excuse me me-- was your problem that you couldn't find
    room, or was your problem that you
    didn't have identification papers that
    reflected who you really were?
    I was already more or less to be exploring around.
    I was already seeing I have a other problem than identity.
    It was my nationality.
    It was my state citizenship.
    From people I received nothing but good reception.
    I was welcome.
    But the official National Council office
    and few other places were certainly not receptive
    because they were in communist hands.
    That I did not fully understood and even could really
    operate as I could do today.
    So I'd walk with my [? complain ?]..
    And apparently whatever I communicate,
    they did understood that as a citizen of the United States,
    just had some difficulty.
    So they look on my birth date certificate,
    and they wrote one of those little memo,
    to whom it might concern.
    This is the American--
    Which--
    --military authorities?
    Yes.
    That was US military authorities,
    which was temporarily right on a corner
    not too far from a city hall.
    So it happened very fast.
    And I was received well.
    My certificate certainly caused some interest.
    And there was a quick response.
    A young soldier who must have been a corporal and must
    knew how to type, in fact, went to the commanding officers
    there, who were obviously next door.
    And it was very quick.
    And I had a little paper, which say who am I
    and how should they treat me.
    At that particular time, I certainly
    could not translate what they wrote.
    But I know it today.
    And I have many copy of it to make sure
    that I don't lose anything.
    So that was my--
    finally I could use it as some sort
    of identification, who am I?
    And I went back to the city hall.
    And within that same couple hours,
    there was incredible change.
    The little note produced is resolved.
    I was getting settled in a nice little room
    and not too far from Hotel Central.
    Unbelievable.
    And my new landlady was very nice, very accommodating,
    and therefore, I attach myself to Hotel Central,
    which I visited, where the Americans were already in.
    And out showing that little paper.
    And so I was sort of appendage to them
    and tolerated and, in fact, suddenly
    being consulted on a few things.
    So if I understand this, when you
    went into the office of the US military authorities
    on the corner of the same street where there was the city
    hall with this National Council, they,
    based on your birth certificate, write
    a letter-- a short note that says, to whom it may concern.
    And that note says that you are a US citizen.
    Is that correct?
    It identifies--
    Yeah, and that I should be treated as such.
    And then you take that and go back to city hall,
    and their attitude changes In the sense
    that they find a room for you all of a sudden.
    The landlady is nice.
    And it is very close to Hotel Central,
    which is where you had worked as a waiter before?
    But now--
    Yeah.
    --it's under American control.
    And you are somehow rather attached to the Americans
    who are running Hotel Central.
    Is that correct?
    Yes.
    They were not running the hotel.
    They just simply move in and had their headquarters there
    because it had room for the official deed offices
    in order to be--
    when they clear it out from--
    because prior to it, it was German military hospital,
    which was called "Lazarett" already for the casualties.
    And they established themselves.
    And I was very able--
    I knew what the hotel was all about.
    So you didn't speak any English at that point?
    I just have some vocabulary.
    I did have after all, a few lessons from Monsieur
    [? Argiacon ?] who once upon a time
    was also a guest in the hotel.
    That is during the German occupation.
    So the little English I did have--
    Excuse me, have you mentioned this person to me before?
    I beg your pardon?
    The person who you had a few lessons with,
    who was this again?
    I didn't hear the name of--
    That was the Frenchman, Monsieur [? Argiacon ?]..
    Can you--
    --who was the temporary guest--
    who was a mystery guest and who I met
    before I went to labor camp.
    So can you spell his last name for me?
    Because it's not--
    That would be difficult because it was French.
    I only know the pronunciation, [? Argiacon ?]..
    [? Argiacon ?], OK.
    So Mr. [? Argiacon ?] gave you a few lessons in English?
    Yeah.
    And that's what you were using at this point?
    Yes.
    And, of course, those few days with Americans
    already, I was picking up the words here and there.
    So I was able to communicate a few things because I must have
    communicated all right with that office, where they gave
    me there's a little piece of paper, which says,
    to whom it may concern.
    So they understood that I had some difficulties.
    And what did you basically do for the Americans headquartered
    at Hotel Central?
    What were some of your functions?
    There are a few little things I did.
    But there was one, which was eye opener for me.
    They, for example, wanted to hire male dishwashers.
    And they asked me if I can help them to hire somebody.
    In fact, they gave me actually carte blanche hire someone.
    And I had to politely--
    I was shocked because that was a first confrontation how
    the culture in the United States and in Central Europe
    differ because no man in Klatovy inspired that he
    would love to be near America, would
    be employed as a dishwasher.
    I told them the impossibility for me to--
    Why?
    Was it a demeaning or menial position?
    Is it one that women generally had?
    As far as I know at that time, that was a woman's job.
    I see.
    It was ingrained in every male, I believe, in that country,
    in that city, and as far even than me.
    I see.
    And--
    That's why I was ready to do it myself just to be near that.
    But I would not have been happy about it.
    So I communicate to the impossible.
    So that is an example of some of the things I did.
    But they also therefore solved the problem easily.
    They apparently went in to one of the German military detained
    place where the German soldier who surrender--
    POW, prisoner of war.
    And they find out about a dozen every morning.
    And I, of course, was useful because these Germans
    did just little menial works, which would
    have been considered demeaning.
    And I did have suddenly some sense I was supervising.
    Suddenly, my position--
    I was telling these German soldier, who I only a couple
    of months ago serve beer, I was telling
    them what to do for the American in the hotel.
    So my position was quite turned over.
    Of course.
    The roles changed.
    Some of them even had a skill as barbers.
    So they were-- there was plenty for these Germans.
    And they were willing and eager to do
    that because when the Americans had finished their lunch
    or dinner or whatever in the kitchen, which I knew only
    too well, whatever is left, the German--
    I was directed to tell them that they can carry it off.
    And they were eating outside.
    So they obviously get that there were plenty things
    for them to acquire, which they did not
    have in the place of their detention.
    For example, the barber was getting his tips in cigarettes.
    That's a big currency.
    And that was a very priced item for anybody, and particularly
    for German POW.
    So that is what I did.
    Occasionally, I did find some temporary job
    in some restaurant and hotel when they have something to do.
    But outlook for me to be fully employed was diminishing.
    And even I, not even 17, could see that time is changing.
    Economics is changing because many people
    were leaving into a border region, the former Sudetenland.
    There were plenty of opportunities in Sudetenland.
    In the former Sudetenland?
    Now--
    Yes.
    --was the former--
    Because the Czech were occupying that.
    And Czech wanted to, of course, bring as more back
    the former border region.
    They did not call it Sudetenland.
    It was a border region.
    It was called "pohraničí" in Czech.
    And that's where the opportunity for somebody at my age were.
    So it didn't last long.
    I probably lasted in Klatovy a little over three months.
    Now was that such that the opportunity
    in the former Sudetenland was there
    because there were no more Sudeten Germans?
    Or were they still living there?
    They were still there.
    But later on-- of course, when I finally get into job and post
    there, they were--
    in fact, the Czech administration
    and Czech new wave, which was coming in
    to take over not only the administrative situation there,
    but of properties were behaving exactly
    as the Germans were behaving against the Jewish population
    because all German did not have to wear a yellow star.
    But every German was marked with the white armband
    on their right hand.
    So they were marked exactly same type
    of restriction Jewish population faced during the war
    or during a time of protectorate,
    the Germans were facing same restrictions.
    They couldn't, for example, go shopping.
    Every time they went-- they could not
    go into any movie, any entertainment.
    They could not go to the hotels where I was working.
    We could clearly say when I know some of the restrictions
    Jewish population face at the beginning of German occupation
    in Bohemia.
    The Germans were treated exactly in Czech, Sudetenland,
    exactly as they were treating Jewish population
    in 1939 and 1940.
    And--
    That's it.
    And what opportunities in this area were available for you?
    What made it attractive for you to go there?
    I had heard, of course, about these opportunities.
    Nearby-- close, not too far from Klatovy,
    hardly more than hour by train--
    was a well-known tourist attraction called Zelezná Ruda.
    German called it Markt Eisenstein.
    And it was located in beautiful spot,
    what Czech used to call Sumava.
    Sumava would be translated by German Bohmerwald.
    And I would translated in English, Bohemia Forest.
    That was a ski resort.
    It was a good ski resort, particularly wintertime,
    not so much during summertime.
    Of course.
    And were you able to find work here?
    Oh, soon as I arrived, I was immediately
    hired because there was only one hotel which
    was open and accessible to anyone who
    was able to use this facility.
    After all, the German owner was still in the hotel,
    but new and so-called national caretaker,
    which in Czech was "národní správce."
    All these places were to be nationalized.
    Legally, it wasn't done yet.
    The Czech government in Prague couldn't be so fast.
    But everything was already ahead of time.
    This new owner was Mr. Tomasek and his wife.
    The one who had been in Dachau?
    One who had been in Dachau, former inmate in Dachau.
    And on top of which, his wife was a Russian Czech.
    She apparently was left as a child, Soviet Union
    after the revolution and knew perfect Russian.
    She was a nice lady.
    She was a lady, every inch of her,
    and treat everybody with courtesy and politeness.
    She was a wonderful new boss.
    She was a great replacement for Fraulein Pressmar.
    I was treated as a human being.
    And Mr. Tomasek because I think he was definitely--
    I think he spent more than four years in Dachau.
    So he was really survivor.
    And mentally he had moves where he did not act--
    where otherwise he was a very decent guy.
    But both of them, of course, were
    a member of the Communist party because they have priority.
    He not only had the priority to get this property because he
    was a political prisoner--
    a former inmate of the concentration-- but he
    was also a registered Communist Party member.
    This is how you get ahead.
    In that time, in former Sudetenland,
    if you're coming from inland and want to acquire property.
    So here's a question.
    If you were a communist, you had no difficulty
    to be assigned some enterprise and some control.
    And you were designated as "národní správce."
    I would call it national caretaker.
    So here is-- a couple of thoughts run to my mind.
    Number one, are the Americans still
    in military control at this point of that territory
    that you are in?
    Yes and no.
    Americans present in West Bohemia were there.
    But they did not come as an occupier.
    The Czech have control.
    Americans were present was temporary there.
    Within four months, they'd be gone back
    into a zone of occupation of Germany.
    That was one of my questions because what
    I had remembered reading is that they
    reached Pilsen and stopped.
    And then didn't go further, and then eventually retreated to--
    or went back to, as you say, being
    the occupying force in Germany, in particular Bavaria,
    in the southern zone.
    So they did not interfere in any kind of civil administration
    or civil structures or authorities
    or anything like that?
    No, not at all.
    They were just temporarily there.
    They were not alone.
    Of course, most of the country was--
    I wouldn't call it occupation.
    They were liberated from Soviet Union Russia.
    You have to remember that Prague and much of the country
    was liberated.
    American presence in the West Bohemia was in line with
    Karlovy Vary, going down all the way to Budějovice and Karlovy
    Vary in Carlsbad and [PLACE NAME]..
    Yeah, I know the area.
    It's the really western part down to--
    if you say České Budějovice, then that means on the border
    of Austria.
    Correct.
    That becomes important, that region.
    American presence-- I know that by September, they were gone.
    And when did the expulsion of the Germans
    take place, after the Americans leave?
    That expulsion was, of course, already in a making.
    Some Germans, of course, left on their own initiative.
    They had probably those who left quickly.
    They didn't feel comfortable.
    And they probably know why.
    But it was after all decided finally
    in the Potsdam Conference, where the Allies met with--
    as you know, the Potsdam Conference.
    But it's important to clarify their position in Europe.
    And, of course, the German population,
    not only in Czechoslovakia, but even in Poland,
    was already isolated for it to be eventually resettled.
    They are words how to use--
    how it should be eventually--
    the Czech political scene.
    And it was understandable even to me
    that certain segment of Czech government
    do very well already in London.
    The future German-speaking Czech population,
    which was German but Czech, that their life together
    into that new resurrected country
    will not be possible, that there is another political angle.
    But I don't think so that is what you really wanted to know.
    And I will not go into it unless you want me to.
    No.
    For me, it is simply--
    again, the central part of this story is what you experienced.
    So when I ask about this, it is usually
    how you came across this.
    Did you see it happen?
    Did you--
    I will stick to it.
    And since I know that's something that happened,
    I wondered whether or not you being in that area,
    were a witness to it.
    I find myself to observe all of this.
    And I find myself, to my surprise,
    in sympathy and empathy with the Germans what they are facing.
    I know that most Czechs were, good riddance,
    and they deserve it.
    Some did, but some did not.
    I no longer-- slowly and surely was not for collective guilt.
    I didn't see everybody deserve what I was seeing.
    I see.
    And is this when you--
    what you were seeing is when you are based in this new hotel--
    or this hotel that Mr. Tomasek is running--
    and you're in Zelezná Ruda.
    And that's where you see things take place.
    Is that right?
    Right.
    And I think we can finish that story because there
    is, within a year, interesting encounter with refugee which
    running from all across Czechoslovakia into Germany.
    And I was then connected to this situation, which happened
    in Poland, Kielce, in 1946.
    But that is yet to come.
    At this moment, I knew nothing about Poland and Kielce.
    But I quickly learned in that region
    because that the region was something because something was
    happening there all the time.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    What was happening where all the time, Kielce?
    I saw, for example, that little town--
    that little resort-- was slowly being Bolshevized.
    The presence of Zelezná Ruda of Czech was mostly military
    and gendarme.
    A gendarme was the local.
    And then there was the what is called [CZECH],,
    which actually were guarding the border and crossing the border.
    It mainly elite group and their families.
    They were coming back to take control of that region.
    And the crossing border was--
    the border was hardly located.
    Within 20 minutes, I would be right standing on the border.
    And there was a lot of legal and illegal going.
    But it was the political situation which was developing.
    I find out that we were the only hotel for almost a year which
    existed.
    Therefore, if I was during occupation, in Hotel Central,
    the Parteitag [INAUDIBLE]--
    I was watching Communistic Parteitag evenings
    because the Communist Party was forming and holding
    their meetings in the hotel where evening, I have to serve
    them beer and listen to them.
    So what was the name of the hotel in Zelezná Ruda?
    It was, first of all, much propaganda.
    It wasn't unreal to me because it
    was reminiscent of what I experienced in the Hotel
    Central.
    Symbolically, even it was practically,
    graphically happening same thing what
    I had seen in Hotel Central.
    I understand.
    A large dining room was decorated
    in the war, huge, big picture of Adolf Hitler.
    Underneath was a little stand about his [INAUDIBLE]..
    That was in gold.
    And here in the Hotel Slavie after the war,
    it was a huge big job Joseph Stalin.
    And President, of course, Benes, was there too.
    But everything what I saw, it hit me,
    even that I was not even 17.
    So here's--
    I don't know why it hit me.
    I just was reacting--
    as a teenager, I was reacting.
    And I did not know how to control my feelings.
    So I showed it either facially or sometimes laughing,
    some of the things I heard.
    In no time, I was persona non grata.
    So I actually caused my situation in Zelezná Ruda to be
    hard and untenable.
    How long--
    I started--
    How long were you in Zelezná Ruda for?
    I was left Zelezná Ruda 1947, early in spring.
    I will get to it, how did it happen.
    Yeah, but first I want to know, how long were you there for?
    So when did you arrive in Zelezná Ruda?
    I arrived in Zelezná Ruda probably at the end of August.
    1946?
    1945.
    1945.
    So--
    I left definitely by-- in 1947 in May, I was gone.
    I know that.
    So it's less than two years that you were Zelezná Ruda?
    Yes.
    And you see it change.
    You see it change and become much more ideologically driven.
    And the ideology is a Communist ideology.
    And you--
    That is accurate.
    And you mentioned that local elites were part
    of these special gendarmes?
    Is that--
    Yes.
    --correct?
    So when they came back, it was not
    like outsiders coming into the area.
    What emerged was the local Communist Party sympathizers,
    who became prominent.
    Is that correct?
    Yes.
    But I'll add something to it.
    The people who were coming back to that region,
    into Zelezná Ruda, those who were driven by Germans during
    the Munich Agreement, there were very few coming back.
    Most of the people were newcomers.
    And in fact, some of them were, in no time,
    called gold diggers, Czech was called "zlatokop,"
    looking for something to get hold on, mostly stealing.
    But the military, they already the infrastructure which
    control the city council, the national council,
    the control of the border for a post office.
    And very important was the railroad employee.
    They were coming there--
    they had jobs to do.
    But other people were coming there
    for other purpose and other reasons.
    I see.
    And you're saying most of those reasons were to--
    They're no good.
    They were to benefit from the--
    They wanted to get benefits.
    And they have much to gain because as I say,
    civil rights for the German native
    were simply out of there.
    If they did have any, nobody really respect them.
    So it was that Czech who were running--
    of course, in Zelezná Ruda later on, I find out I was not
    the only foreigner.
    I was really not work on because they want
    to make it homogeneous Czech.
    But you were also Czech?
    Yes and no, because I didn't start to act like a Czech.
    There were a few Italian families there.
    There were even Dutch families.
    I happened to learn to know them.
    I also know why they were there.
    The Italian families were longstanding.
    They must have come there in the 19th century
    because this was a region, which was building the railroad
    at the end of 19th century.
    And Italians were pretty good on digging tunnels
    because there were a number of tunnels there.
    So I think Dutchmen was there because he
    have a hotel on a very nice location.
    However, he was not able to open.
    He was not exactly treated as a German.
    But that's a different story.
    Let's concentrate what--
    Yeah, let's concentrate on what is happening to you.
    Now I have a few questions.
    In that time that you're in Zelezná Ruda,
    is that far from your village of Těchonice?
    It is far, yes.
    That was definitely already quite a distance.
    And I was happy to be in Zelezná Ruda because I liked
    the nature.
    I liked the history of it.
    It was a well-known place.
    Czech writers of 19th century wrote great many story,
    which I actually read as a kid.
    So I was feeling very good to be where I was.
    But I was not happy about have things happening to me
    because I wasn't marching to the tune.
    It would have been easy to become a member of the labor
    union and this and this organization, which
    I was blessed to join in instead just become simply
    as one of them.
    But I was--
    What was it about this new system that you didn't like?
    For example, I already make my first contact
    with the United States Embassy.
    And I was already presenting my application
    for better ID, so I do not have this hate for Fremdenpass.
    And I presented my birth certificate,
    and I was acknowledged already by the embassy,
    that I have the right to a passport.
    So this is the embassy in Prague?
    You went--
    This is the embassy in Prague.
    So you went to Prague?
    OK.
    That gives me the confidence-- and that gives me the attitude.
    I acted in Zelezná Ruda--
    I felt I would eventually have a proper ID.
    I had not requested that passport in the United States
    with the intention that I will leave.
    I just want to have some legitimate papers
    that I'm there.
    Now one of the reasons I--
    And I couldn't get Czech paper.
    One of the reasons I ask whether your home village was far away
    or not is that earlier in our interview,
    you mentioned that there was this grand uncle,
    your grandfather's brother, who visited you there.
    And when you told him you wanted to leave and go to America,
    he approved of your plans.
    Now this visit, this time when you met him,
    was during the time you were living and Zelezná Ruda?
    Or had you left there already?
    No.
    I met him already when I was ready to go
    to join the US Army, almost a year and half later.
    So this is after you leave Zelezná Ruda.
    You return to Těchonice?
    Yes.
    At this time, I do not know anything
    about where about my uncle or my grandfather's younger brother.
    I did not know that.
    So let's talk now a little bit about when
    you're at that hotel, how you meet
    these two Jewish Polish students, who cross the border.
    Tell me about that incident.
    That would be-- by 1946, I felt at ease.
    And I have a co-worker and good friend that
    would become a lifetime friend.
    His name was Jaroslav Rubac.
    He played an important role.
    We did it together.
    He was year younger.
    And we were the only waiters working in that hotel.
    And it was 1946.
    We did hear through the news and in paper and through radio
    that there was something going on in Poland.
    And when we read it, we just were
    shocked because we just suddenly get a new word, "pogrom."
    I did not know much about what the word "pogrom" meant at all.
    And Kielce was quite a distance from Zelezná Ruda.
    Neither did I know where Kielce were.
    How little did I know that very soon,
    Kielce will come to me to Zelezná Ruda.
    Pure coincidence.
    So we knew something going on.
    But we also knew in August that there
    was a big international hoopla of international student
    union--
    it has a very fine fancy title, which I
    wouldn't be able to translate.
    It's sponsored, of course, by Moscow, by Communists,
    by politicians, to organize-- they
    were trying to catch young people, and particularly
    students.
    And they have a big international meeting.
    And Prague was very proud that they
    have a first great meeting of youth
    from all over Europe, which was not true.
    Only east was meeting there.
    Now that was what we knew.
    And we did not go anymore into it.
    But it was still going on because Czechoslovakia
    government have a difficult situation how to deal
    with the Jewish population.
    Whatever it was in Poland were suddenly
    picking up and leaving Poland.
    And most of them choose crossing Czechoslovakia
    into West Germany.
    They didn't choose East Germany.
    So they started crossing the border in very places where I
    was on labor camp during the Germany, in Silesia,
    mostly in place, Náchod.
    You're talking about Olomouc then, when you were in Olomouc?
    Yes, I was in Olomouc.
    But Náchod was not very much because the Czechoslovakian
    government somehow did not want to let loose this population
    at will and keep going across without some control.
    Apparently they must have been pressed
    either by Polish government, either by occupation authority
    in West Germany, because they were definitely
    threatened to be flood with a couple thousand refugees.
    So I'm going to stop there--
    So Czechoslovakian government created a camp in Náchod.
    And they tried to hold on this Polish-Jewish diaspora which
    was pouring in.
    So they are not lose, completely crossing the--
    they tried to act as humanitarians to begin with.
    That's what press say.
    And they tried to always draw pacify Polish concern and also
    occupation of authority in West German, like the British
    and French and Americans in West Germany.
    They tried to control who won't get there
    and how do they get there.
    That was obvious even to me at that age.
    And at this time, as I'm talking,
    nobody up here yet in Zelezná Ruda.
    But I know the Polish Jews were detained around city of Náchod.
    And just to make it clear, because we're not
    talking about this in any detail,
    but the reason why there is this stream of Jewish refugees
    from Poland post-war in 1946 is because there
    is a pogrom in Kielce, where several dozen Jews are killed?
    Yes.
    And that is what spurs this exodus from Kielce for sure
    and from other parts of Poland as well.
    And so they're coming into the Czech lands,
    wanting to get westwards.
    And the Czech government creates this holding place near Náchod
    for them.
    And this is where at which point you are explaining to me how
    those two Jewish students come to Zelezná Ruda.
    Is that correct?
    Correct.
    You have it absolutely right.
    I like the way you say holding.
    Yes, Czechs were creating holdings.
    And Czech work was very busy trying to act humanitarian.
    The Polish two students, which I'm going to talk,
    didn't come that way.
    They choose even better way.
    They apparently had opportunity in students
    to join that student international meeting, so
    called, a European movement of young people.
    They apparently find an easy way to get right into Prague
    by join this Polish student organization
    and took part, apparently, in that Congress,
    which was held in Prague.
    And by that time they were orienting themselves
    in the country, and I assume this is how they find out
    Zelezná Ruda as a point to get into West Germany.
    So how do they cross your path?
    Tell me the specifics of how--
    And that I can be very specific because that
    was the biggest adventure I have participated in.
    But I understood those two Polish students very easier.
    It was, I believe, beginning of September
    because we had no business.
    Vacation was over and everything.
    We have hardly few guests.
    And suddenly, early, around 11:00--
    before noon-- and we would serve only few dinners to begin
    with--
    they came, two students.
    And they came and asked for breakfast.
    And they came, and they were highly visible
    because they carry on their hats their student Polish hats
    or caps, which were so visible, nobody--
    they certainly went the wrong way about it
    to come to the border the way they were dressed.
    So they immediately attract our attention.
    They have some knowledge of Czech.
    But it was very bad.
    So we used communication of Czech,
    and whatever Polish we understood too.
    Were these--
    Then we just--
    Excuse me, let me ask a bunch of questions here.
    We are talking about two young men, is this correct?
    Not any girls?
    Yes, [INAUDIBLE] young men who arrived and ordered breakfast
    before noon.
    And they arrived with dressed as a student
    with a Polish insignia signs, which
    was odd, which was definitely something nobody
    saw ever before.
    And did they stand out in any other way,
    aside from the way they were dressed?
    No, they didn't-- because they were decent,
    and they have light luggage, it was sort of a--
    in Czech they would call "taška."
    They have very little with them.
    And they have their breakfast.
    And only when they [? start ask ?]
    [? for paying ?] then suddenly one of them ask me because I
    was their head waiter.
    I had to take the money from them.
    And they asked me which way they can cross into Germany, just
    like that.
    There was nobody in that restaurant at that moment
    but my friend and them.
    Wow.
    So they took a risk.
    And they asked that.
    So I assume that he's asking the legal way.
    So I assumed I will show to him, oh, you keep going this road.
    And you go get to the border.
    And then I realized he hesitate.
    And he say, no, I don't mean that way.
    And that way, which way?
    And he pointed out right there, out of the window,
    he could see the forest.
    And that was-- I never heard that.
    I was there already more than a year,
    but certainly nobody asked me that.
    Now, I say, that's something interesting.
    And I called my co-worker quickly to come in.
    We find out that to be sure that we understand it,
    we could not carry that in half-Czech, half-Polish,
    so we asked if they understood German.
    They did.
    So our communication start more or less in German.
    Their German was good.
    I believe ours was a little better.
    But at any rate--
    I start--
    --now you could talk to one another?
    So we start definitely-- all was done in German from then on.
    And we just recognize that this is--
    we did not recognize right away a reason.
    We didn't get it.
    But soon as we got it, when they say, we are Jew,
    and we are from Kielce--
    if they were from Kielce, I don't
    know because I don't know if they were students in Kielce.
    But certainly they say we are Jews.
    And we're running from Kielce.
    And they explained why they came where they come.
    They come from Prague because they attend that Congress.
    That was their purpose they came into Prague.
    And their purpose coming in Zelezná Ruda was continue
    to go.
    There we were immediately at that age, and they were--
    I don't think so they were or over 20.
    I think they were all around 19, 20.
    And you at this age--
    at this point, how old are you, 17, 18?
    At that age, I'm going to be 17.
    So you are younger than they are?
    Yes, I was definitely younger.
    But I understood what they want because it was only
    a couple of months ago, I was on the run like they were.
    This probably was one of the response-- an impulse for me
    to be part of their scheme.
    I can identify with some of the things they were doing.
    So what happened?
    I grasped quickly their reason.
    There was no more question about why for me.
    I was willing to help.
    So what did you do?
    So I reach-- can I talk?
    Absolutely.
    I'm saying, so what did you do?
    I consulted my friend, and we just decide that--
    we'd told them how to go about--
    exactly pointing to that hill and to that forest.
    Then we just realized-- my friend and I--
    that that's not a really safe way, that we really
    don't know that was a say way.
    We knew that was the direction.
    But we didn't think it was safe.
    So then we decided on a different scheme,
    right open and daring.
    Zelezná Ruda have actually two railroad stations and one stop.
    The main radio station, which was very small,
    which visitors would arrive at the beginning of Zelezná Ruda,
    direction coming from Klatovy.
    And that was small.
    The final station was at the border.
    And there was a stop because from the arriving station,
    the train had to go through the tunnel.
    And when that train goes through the tunnel,
    it announced itself where it is.
    There was big whistle.
    And it usually took couple of minutes, the train
    to make that tunnel.
    Soon as it got out of a tunnel, there was a little stop.
    And it went right hardly 100 yards from our hotel.
    And there was a little platform.
    And when the train arrived already out of the tunnel,
    it stopped at that platform.
    And usually some railroad employee
    would get out to [INAUDIBLE].
    There was simply no more any people
    in the train except some railroad employee
    or somebody who might like to go all
    the way to the border from the town,
    might board that train in those few minutes,
    had a free ride all the way down.
    And that was our point where we started to scheme
    how to get them across to the border
    because we knew exactly how it'd look at the big station, which
    was a big huge station.
    It was built during also Hungarian Empire.
    Half of it belonged to German.
    And half of it belongs to the Czech.
    And on the left side of the station was more forest.
    And that was only hop into German side, which was
    called Bayerisch Eisenstein.
    And if you arrive through that forest
    station on a train, which is almost empty,
    and exit the train on the left side, not on the right side,
    with some direction, you are in no time free into Germany.
    The scheme was that as we were explaining to them where they
    came on board, this train on the platform, which is stopping,
    and what to do when they get in main station,
    they were hesitant.
    They did not get the scheme.
    So suddenly I say to John--
    I will call him John--
    at that time his name was Jaroslav.
    I would say, why don't we go with them?
    And it was [? instinctive ?].
    And it was fast.
    We go with you.
    And we knew very well that we could only do it certain time.
    Train were leaving just like that.
    We knew the schedule of the train,
    that there'd be a scheduled train at 3:20,
    which would emerge from that tunnel,
    and we can board that train.
    So we devised the situation for them,
    that I and John will go first, and they
    will come a few minutes because they will have enough time.
    Train will announce itself by loud whistle.
    That means it will take couple minutes before train really
    come to the platform, where we could board it,
    that I and John will be the first one to get on.
    And they will go on the end.
    They choose different [INAUDIBLE]
    same thing, that we don't go together,
    and that they take Polish caps off,
    which they get immediately.
    So they don't have that [INAUDIBLE]..
    And then we travel all the way to the station.
    And at the end when it stops, and come to Poznan,
    that station will be received by station master, which
    is red cap.
    And he may be the only one standing
    on the right side of the train.
    Then my friend will take a raincoat--
    it was a little bit drizzly--
    will take a raincoat.
    And when he exits the train on the right side, somehow along,
    he is going to have a difficulty with his raincoat and throw it
    such a way that it shows that he is in trouble with his raincoat
    and cannot quickly get out.
    And I will be coming out same time,
    except I'm facing into left side, which they will exit.
    Of course, the left side, where train
    was already boarded, but for somebody at that age,
    they have to hop over.
    And I would-- it was a decoy.
    Major part-- we both play important part.
    My part was simply to see before they jump that there
    is nobody on that side.
    And I can point to them the direction
    because it was right from there nose, hardly 50 yards
    the forest.
    I see.
    And my friend will struggle with his raincoat
    in case we are facing on the station platform somebody who
    might observe this.
    Did it work?
    And, in fact, it was a possible and easy solution.
    You must remember at that time, border
    was not fortified as it would be a year later.
    It was a different kind of border, different situation.
    I'll describe what the border was later on.
    Let's proceed with this scheme, which worked perfectly.
    Station master was asking train for pass, station master.
    So we didn't even have to pretend this great gymnastic we
    want to do with the raincoat.
    We did not even have to worry about my job
    because there was nobody on that side.
    They could clearly jump and exit.
    And I watched when they were practically hardly
    a few yards at the forest entrance.
    And I could turn to say, John, no need.
    We can get out.
    And it was over.
    It was done fast.
    And I think there were maybe two people who
    may have exited the train besides the station master,
    standing there with his red cap.
    This was sort of a railroad yard where trains parked.
    It was like a parking lot for a train.
    And that was the final stop.
    And we exited the station very easily
    without being noticed because at this point,
    I and John was not thinking about how to cover ourselves.
    We just realized that we have no cover story and nothing in case
    we were stuck.
    Were you stopped?
    So we thought-- we would be stopped by somebody, boys,
    what are you doing?
    Because we were known--
    everybody in that region know each other
    because it was still in flux of immigration.
    And people moving in the region.
    But my question is--
    We are the two waiters of one hotel alone.
    But my question is were you--
    did anybody stop you?
    And how did you get back?
    No, that was easy already.
    We get out of the station, and we took a road
    because there was direct road, which we originally
    suggests to those students.
    But that would be for people who are legally traveling
    by car, by any means--
    foreigners-- that was the normal crossing over.
    I see.
    We send them into a legal situation.
    Yeah, because they--
    And we were able to walk--
    it might have take us 20 minutes, half an hour walking.
    But during that walk back, we suddenly
    got a little bit cold feet, what did we do?
    What happens if they get caught?
    And we were preparing story in case they talk.
    But our story today right now [INAUDIBLE]..
    Everybody would knew what we were doing if we late,
    somebody.
    But so far, nothing.
    We arrived back to the hotel.
    But we knew one way where we would be sure
    that they were successful because being only hotel,
    if somebody get, by the police patrol
    or by the border patrol, caught, he
    would be brought into this town, in the local village holding
    jail.
    And if it was evening, we in the hotel
    would get a call from the gendarme
    and he would request one meal, two, three meals,
    and we would carry it to the jail.
    So we knew that people did get caught.
    And we knew that we could figure out
    if our two Polish students of Jewish descent would be caught.
    And we knew that between 6:00 and 7:00
    would be the time that we would be
    getting called because most of the time, we get to get called.
    And then somebody carry the food.
    And we did not, of course, see the prison.
    So we were definitely not ourselves
    during those couple hours as we were serving two later dinners.
    We were waiting for that telephone to ring.
    And we were certainly not alert to pay attention.
    We were tense, I'm trying to say.
    It was not fear, but tension.
    So did they call?
    Or did they make it?
    No call.
    No call?
    So by 8:00, we were smiling.
    And yes, we were having little schnapps
    ourselves-- we done it.
    [LAUGHS]
    We were successful.
    And the only footnote to this, is irony,
    that hardly within a year, I would be using same place
    to leave Czechoslovakia.
    I would, however, do it differently.
    I would not exit the left side.
    I would exit on the right side through hands
    of the Czech control and be moved into the American part
    because Germans were not at time in control of the border.
    And Americans were very lax.
    I don't think so they passed the border check.
    So obviously anybody who make it, as these Polish students
    did, they were safe.
    So here's--
    And I did it only a couple months, about in May.
    I remember it was in May.
    And my friend John had to do it hardly
    within seven months later.
    But he has to do it the Polish-Jewish way.
    He had to do it illegally because situation
    in Czechoslovakia was no longer what it was,
    what I described what we did.
    The border was tight under control with--
    controlled not only with dogs, wires, contraption--
    we are talking about a different situation.
    I am already in Germany.
    I'm already at that time stationed
    in an entirely different place.
    I am a soldier of the United States Army stationed
    in Oberusel, in [? Taunus ?],, and that is outside Frankfurt.
    So I want to wrap things up with your leaving Czechoslovakia.
    And the last time you told me about what was going on with
    you is when you say that you became a persona non grata
    at this hotel, Zelezná Ruda, because you are showing
    your feelings and your opinions of most of these Communist
    Party activities that are going on there.
    And what makes you decide that you
    need to leave Czechoslovakia?
    Because you say at the beginning-- you were telling me
    earlier, when you wanted those papers from the United States,
    originally it wasn't because you intended to leave the country.
    What made you change your mind?
    That is a good question.
    And I forgot to point it out before this event.
    I did have many difficulty on the city hall.
    We call it at that time "národní výbor," or National Council.
    I've become a definitely hard case for this one
    Communist city hall because every time I
    went there for something, like I needed ration card for winter
    cold.
    I would need to, let's say, call before winter
    because I would need lots of things
    that ration cards were, for example, exempt.
    And I would encounter this cynical officials, who
    just look on the little book and find out there, of course,
    I was Americans.
    And they did not need to look in the book already.
    I was already well known for my outspoken
    and for my abrasive conduct--
    again, Bolshevization of this little town.
    And I was already no longer serving beer on evening when
    Communist Party of Železná Ruda met in the Hotel Slavie.
    In fact, I no longer call Hotel Slavie Hotel Slavie.
    I call it the Red House.
    Were you still working there?
    So I obviously--
    Were you working on there still?
    What?
    Were you still working there?
    Oh, yes.
    Mr. Tomasek was very--
    in Czech is the word "trpěliví."
    He was very tolerant.
    He did have a patient with me.
    Particularly, his wife, she was certainly on my right.
    She was maybe amused by some of my outstanding act of defiance
    and all of it. so--
    Tell me, what were some of your acts of defiance?
    Because you just let me know that you didn't like it.
    But you didn't tell me what you did that would
    make you a persona non grata.
    It was my conduct when I was told--
    in plain, direct language number of times, look,
    you need an overcoat.
    Well I just only a couple yards the Americans
    are across the border.
    Why don't you get it from there?
    Or if I wanted coal, fuel for heating
    the place during winter, well, the British
    are controlling the route.
    You can get it from the British.
    In fact, I was not welcome in Zelezná Ruda by certain
    populations, not all.
    Many I was actually a good symbol of how
    to stand against something what they saw
    was not right to begin with because Communist act
    obnoxious.
    I will tell one simple--
    I was already told in the US Embassy
    about how should I behave, that I should not, for example,
    join any organization.
    So obviously, here come [INAUDIBLE] trying
    to enlist me into labor union.
    At that time, Czechoslovakia was only one union and member
    of the-- chairman of the union were Antonín Zapotocky,
    hard Communist.
    And Antonín Zapotocky will become a president one day
    of the socialist country, which at that time,
    he was only chairman of the labor union.
    Once in desperation, I want to get rid
    of this agitator who just bring me the papers to join.
    I throw 50 korunas in his direction,
    and I say, if this a question of money, then here's your money.
    And to my horror, next day, he wrote me a letter
    that I am a member of the labor union in good standing.
    Apparently I had already--
    in those two years I had, [? the stamps ?]
    were all three years I had.
    Mr. Budway, I want to summarize things.
    There are a couple questions I have.
    Can you tell me why the US Embassy did not
    give you a passport?
    They couldn't do it right away.
    They did have [INAUDIBLE].
    At that time, embassy was not issuing passports.
    My birth certificate had to get to the State Department.
    And from then on, they have to verify it.
    They had to verify even my--
    even I gave them my address of one of my relatives in Chicago.
    They have to verify it.
    So that's number one.
    It took some time to do it.
    And then one other point I wanted
    to ask you is that during the German occupation,
    you learned very quickly that it was very dangerous to show what
    you thought and what you felt because you could be paying
    with your life for it, like those ladies who were shot
    because they talked about the positive way of Heydrich's
    assassination.
    So you learned that that's dangerous.
    But you let yourself react during this Soviet or this more
    Communist kind of atmosphere and control.
    Didn't you feel afraid?
    Didn't you feel that maybe it's not safe to do this?
    I knew that it was really obnoxious.
    And perhaps as a teenager, I did not
    have yet the skill to control what I do and how I think
    and [INAUDIBLE].
    Excuse me.
    But however, it was after the war,
    I had a new sense of confidence.
    I was no longer [INAUDIBLE].
    Mr. Budway, something is happening with the noise.
    I don't hear you very well.
    So is something moving at your location?
    My fingers because my hand is getting a little numb
    holding the receiver.
    I see.
    I'm so sorry.
    So I will stop.
    I'm so sorry.
    I know it's a long time.
    But we are coming close to the end of my questions.
    So your understanding that is it's not wartime anymore.
    It's post-war.
    And so you feel somewhat safer?
    You feel that there's not going to be the same high price
    for any kind of honest reaction that you
    would have had to pay had this still been the Nazi time?
    Correct.
    And I have protection.
    After all, yes, I will say, I was somebody.
    I was American citizen.
    That meant a difference?
    That made the difference.
    I was outspoken.
    And I acted that way.
    In fact, those who were anti-Communists,
    they expected Americans to behave that way.
    And I behaved that way to be daring.
    I see.
    Fearless.
    And I had enough to be starting off.
    You were tired of it, tired of being--
    Yeah, I was tired of it.
    And I knew slowly and surely, that as much
    as you like the country, as much I felt tired
    because I'd experienced all the humiliation,
    all the upside down with the rest
    of the people in the country, I did not feel suddenly
    that I have any future there.
    I recognized it.
    And it sounds like there was enough people who
    treated you like an outsider?
    Yes.
    That--
    They were.
    And particularly those in power or in some power,
    be it in any office--
    the only office which was friendly to me
    was post office, where I received everything.
    And it was in hands of somebody else completely, in opposition.
    Now, railroad?
    No.
    Police?
    No.
    City council?
    No.
    I was safe, of course, in hotel and Mrs. Tomaskova and Mr.
    Tomasek.
    I could afford to act the way I act.
    They already accept me for what I was.
    So did you leave Czechoslovakia directly from Zelezná Ruda?
    Yes, because I knew the situation.
    And when I finally got my passport,
    and of course it wasn't easy to leave because at the embassy,
    they did not expect--
    they just issue a passport, and here you are.
    How to get to United States, that was my problem.
    But there was a perceptive clerk-- he was a vice-consul--
    who suggested-- and he called military attaché--
    that I could join the US Army.
    There was a replacement depot in the city of Marburg,
    when Americans of my type were all around in Europe.
    I was not the only American.
    I might have been the only American
    in the west part of Bohemia, in that situation.
    But there were lots of Americans, kids of my age,
    in places like Denmark, Norway, Holland, and, of course,
    England and Scotland, and big amount of them were in Germany.
    So the US Army did have replacement depot,
    where they train American born who were in Europe.
    We were volunteers.
    And we were welcome.
    The reason is because the rest of the soldiers who spent war
    in Europe want to go home.
    So we will welcome as a replacement.
    So this is the idea you get from the military attache at the US
    Embassy in Prague, that that should
    be the place that you go?
    Yes.
    Did you have a chance to say goodbye to your mother
    and to your--
    Oh, yes.
    That was done properly.
    I have actually [INAUDIBLE] who was high-ranking officer.
    He knew where I was going.
    I now have his blessing to go.
    The only thing I have got baggage.
    Železná Ruda.
    The baggage is a figure of speech.
    When I find myself in Germany, in training,
    that is under the episode which I
    felt I experience what I would call antisemitic situations.
    But I'm not going to talk about it.
    The only thing that--
    because I knew few languages and slightly even Russian,
    on my resume when I finished basic training,
    I was sent to Oberursel.
    And Oberursel was headquarters of ECIC.
    It stands for European Command of Center Intelligent Army--
    I wasn't doing any intelligence work there.
    Because of my profession as a waiter,
    I was helping to run offices, dining room, and club,
    and I was in charge of German personnel there.
    However, I communicate with my friends in Zelezná Ruda
    everywhere.
    And I, of course, wrote where I am.
    I did not say what ECIC meant.
    But I was being watched by Czech Communist country in power
    in 1948.
    And they watched my movement.
    And they knew with who I was in contact.
    And obviously, I was also the cause that my friend John with
    two other friends illegally left when Communists came
    into Zelezná Ruda and make it a forbidden zone,
    where nobody could come because they control--
    now the Czech were fleeing.
    It was not the Polish Jews who were fleeing.
    Did your mother ever experience, or your grandfather,
    any kind of repercussions?
    Grandfather no longer lived.
    Mother, yes, of course, that is another thing
    because I was reckless.
    I wrote about anything and everything I saw.
    I was drunk with freedom.
    Not only I could do whatever I want,
    I was having a nice uniform, great meal, I could travel,
    I have almost $80 every month, I could travel, and I did.
    And when Czech Communists took over and did all that,
    I suddenly was visiting with number young people from
    Zelezná Ruda who knocked on the gate of my army base in which I
    work because they knew.
    And they came.
    And then even my fellow soldiers who
    were guarding the entrance to the army base,
    they keep laughing.
    And they keep calling me.
    And they say, Budway, your Czech cousins are here again.
    And they laugh.
    They say, you must have many cousins in that country.
    [LAUGHS] Yes.
    But my question is, did your mother,
    who stayed in Těchonice, did she experience any unpleasantness
    because of what you were doing and the fact that you had left?
    Obviously, yes.
    And she had other idea because she more or less--
    I might have inherited my sassiness or my belligerence
    from her because even in that little village,
    she was acting as daring.
    So she was on a Communist list immediately.
    She did have difficulty.
    And eventually, years later when I was already a civilian
    and wanted to invite her to visit the United States again
    and visit Chicago and to come and say hello to her younger
    generation, which she know in Chicago,
    she received very quick answer, absolutely--
    it was in two sentences--
    she had no chance.
    That is another story.
    And it's a long and complex story.
    But she did not--
    and she, of course, was unwillingly, unknowingly
    a part of what would it be like a subversive war
    because these Czech friends--
    of course, I help them financially and many ways--
    and finding places to live and going, and things like that.
    But one problem they have to communicate with home,
    to let their people know at home where they are if they're safe.
    And there was no direct mail communication--
    civilian mail.
    You're talking when you're still in--
    While deep in Germany.
    Yeah, when you are still in Germany in 1947 and so on,
    that they have no--
    Yes.
    I was using my Army--
    APO, Army postal organization--
    I'm using any communication to Czechoslovakia-- at that time
    Communist Czechoslovakia-- by, of course, my letters
    arrived with US Army stamps.
    My mail would be going to England and London
    being flew back to Czechoslovakia.
    And, of course, I was a mailman for all these Czech refugees.
    I took their mail.
    I mailed it to my mother.
    And my mother was the mailman.
    She was the one who delivered it.
    I see.
    So she unknowing was doing something would become--
    or her pride-- because before they were--
    and because of that, people in the countryside
    have learned to know if they have somebody in their family
    who left the country, how do you try to trace them?
    And this was what incriminate me in 1962, a spy, placed to be,
    explained to them that time that I was only
    a corporal who was in charge of offices, dining room
    and probably I was in charge of German personnel,
    they wouldn't believe it.
    Thank you for answering that because you mentioned
    in the early part of our interview
    that when you returned to visit in 1962,
    you were arrested as a spy.
    And this provides some of the explanation
    for whatever rationale they might have had to do so.
    And I'd say that with this, we are probably
    at the end of our interview.
    And you've covered a really wide range of events
    and provided us a picture that is both complex
    and very detailed.
    And I thank you for that because it is unusual to be able
    to hear such a story, where you start from Oak Park, Illinois,
    and then are in the small village of Těchonice.
    And talk about what happens to your friend, Václav Florian,
    and other Jews that you see during the Nazi occupation,
    your own experiences there, and then give us at least a little
    sense of what happened after the war ended in those post-war
    years, and that although it had been liberation,
    it was not necessarily freedom.
    And--
    That is true.
    And so is there anything else you
    would like to add to this interview before I conclude it?
    Only that-- very quickly because in Zelezná Ruda,
    I encountered one gentleman whose name was Arnost Zajic.
    And he had a pastry shop.
    Before we coming to Zelezná Ruda,
    he has a pastry shop into little town of Velhartice.
    Little did I know this gentleman was a true good soul
    and good Samaritan.
    I have learned just only recently
    what work he did in Velhartice, helping three Jewish families
    during the early days of antisemitic enforcement
    of the rules, which were--
    they eventually ended in Terezín.
    Mr. Zajic and his family find a way how to send packages.
    He developed even a recipe of certain gingerbread,
    which was--
    I just on my last visit in today's Czech Republic
    learned more--
    because I was given the little booklet--
    learned a little more about Mr. Zajic's activity.
    All of the three families which he supported,
    with his gingerbread, during almost five years in Terezín
    survived to come to tell him thank you.
    And Mr. Zajic, of course, did survive the Nazi
    and doing what he was doing, but he did not
    survive Communist regime.
    That injustice was a pain I just learned a year ago
    because there was local writer who write about his story.
    And to my surprise in that little book, which
    was given to me, my name is also named
    by the family of Mr. Zajic, that my name is fully
    and properly spelled in that book.
    I feel that Mr. Zajic at that time
    already showed himself if I was showing it
    abrasive and teenage way, Mr. Zajic
    was showing it humane and nice way.
    He was truly a good Samaritan.
    So he help during the war.
    And how did I find about it?
    That is another story because I find it
    by visiting Czech embassy about 10 years ago, where
    there was a special exhibit.
    The exhibit is called People Who are No Longer With Us.
    And one panel have a story of Mr. Zajic [INAUDIBLE]..
    It had that Mr. Zajic did not respect
    any Nazi antisemitic law.
    He conduct himself how he always did to all of these customers,
    and never mind if they were Jewish.
    And do we spell his name Z-E-I-T-Z?
    Zajic is Z-A-J-I-C. And Arnost.
    Arnost Zajic.
    And--
    A real person who helped.
    If I only helped two Jewish students, it was different.
    This man really helped people.
    Did you know him personally?
    I know him personally.
    Family knows him personally.
    I even received his son, who was studying medicine,
    in Oberursel.
    But I did not know that there was a writer now
    who is collecting information about people like Mr. Zajic,
    and that are children in today's Czech Republic
    who are actually finding Mr. Zajic's story by being given
    a task by a teacher to go and investigate about people
    who are no longer among us.
    And I believe it was a ninth grader, who
    must have visited today's mayor's office in Velhartice
    and apparently went into archives
    and get a number of documentation.
    And one was, of course, during wartime,
    when Mr. Zajic is clearly incriminated by his refusal
    not to share his Jewish custom, and particularly children.
    They could come any time, anywhere.
    Mr. Zajic simply would not obey.
    Thank you for bringing his name to my attention.
    And thank you again for what you have shared with me
    over these past few days.
    In the name of the museum, we're very grateful.
    I very much appreciate it.
    And I will say now that this concludes the United States
    Holocaust Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Robert
    Budway on September 3rd, 2020.
    And you are in Washington DC, and I
    in Falls Church, Virginia.
    Thank you again.
    Yes.
    It was pleasure to do it.
    I only apologize that I get sometimes emotional--
    Oh, that's not a problem.
    --and intense.
    I apologize for it.
    The person who cries to me in heaven for justice
    is Mr. Zajic.
    And Václav Florian, who I am very happy to say is living
    a long life and living it among his grandchildren and among his
    family.
    He's alone now, but he's doing well.
    That is good news.
    That is very good news.
    And thank you for bringing this to that conclusion.

    Overview

    Interviewee
    Robert Budway
    Interviewer
    Navazelskis, Ina
    Date
    interview:  2020 August 31
    interview:  2020 September 01
    interview:  2020 September 03
    Geography
    creation: Washington (D.C.)
    Credit Line
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Extent
    3 digital files : WAV.

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    There are no known restrictions on access to this material.
    Conditions on Use
    No restrictions on use

    Copyright Holder
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

    Keywords & Subjects

    Personal Name
    Budway, Robert.

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Provenance
    Ina Navazelskis, on behalf of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Oral History Branch, conducted the oral history interview with Robert Budway on August 31, 2020 and September 1 and 3, 2020. The interview was conducted remotely during the COVID-19 pandemic.
    Record last modified:
    2023-11-16 08:06:30
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn722660

    Additional Resources

    Transcripts (3)
    Time Coded Notes (3)

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    Also in United States Holocaust Memorial Museum oral history collection

    Contains interviews with Holocaust survivors, concentration camp liberators, rescuers, relief workers, former POWs, and people of different social and ethnic backgrounds who were targeted by the Nazis and their collaborators or witnessed the events of the Holocaust

    Date: 1989-2023

    Oral history interview with Chil Rajchman

    Oral history interview with Chil Rajchman

    Oral History

    Chil Rajchman, born in June 1914 in Łódź, Poland, describes his childhood; leaving with his sister to go to Pruszków, a town near Warsaw, where they were interned in the ghetto there; working at a railroad labor camp while in Pruszków; being sent with his sister to Warsaw, where they obtained travel documents allowing them to go to Lubelski, Poland; being forced to travel by foot to Lubartów, Poland in October 1942; his deportation to Treblinka, where he worked as a barber shaving victims’ hair before they entered the gas chambers; escaping Treblinka and hiding with various people as he headed for Warsaw; moving on to Piastów, Poland, where he obtained false papers; remaining in Piastów, where he took part in the Polish uprising of August 1944; and remaining in hiding in Warsaw until he was liberated on January 17, 1945.

    Oral history interview with Nesse Galperin Godin

    Oral history interview with Nesse Galperin Godin

    Oral History

    Nesse Galperin Godin, born in 1928 in Siauliai, Lithuania, describes her family’s work in the dairy business; the German occupation of Lithuania in 1941 and the establishment of a ghetto in Siauliai; starting to do forced labor in 1943 when she was old enough to work; being deported with her mother and her brother to Stutthof in Danzig, Poland in 1944; working in various sub-camps of Stutthof until she was put on a death march in January 1945; her liberation by Russian soldiers in March 1945; and her immigration to the United States in 1950.

    Oral history interview with Eddie Willner

    Oral history interview with Eddie Willner

    Oral History

    Eddie Willner, born on August 15, 1926 in Germany, describes how his father had felt that his family would be safe because he had fought in the German Army in World War I; being separated from his parents and sent on a train to Brussels, Belgium, where a Jewish refugee organization placed him with a Dutch family; his parents’ move to Belgium in 1939 and seeing them on weekends until the war broke out in May 1940; the arrest of his father and his deportation to an internment camp in France; remaining with his mother and tracking down his father in the Pyrenees Mountains; living in the house of a French priest; getting caught with false identification cards with his family and being sent to Drancy; his deportation out of France and toward the east on September 12, 1942; arriving in Auschwitz, where his mother was immediately gassed while he stayed with his father; his transfer to a work camp in Lazy, Poland, where he worked on reconstructing bombed-out railroads; enduring harsh conditions, especially in the winter months; losing his religious faith after the war; returning from his work detail one day to discover that his father had been selected for the gas chamber during the day; the bombing of the train on which he was being transported to Buchenwald, escaping, and being liberated by American troops; staying in the Frankfurt displaced persons camp and then searching for his family in Brussels after the war; and immigrating to the United States in December 1947.

    Oral history interview with Lisa Dawidowicz Murik

    Oral history interview with Lisa Dawidowicz Murik

    Oral History

    Lisa Dawidowicz Murik, born on November 5, 1925 in Ostroh, Poland (Ukraine), describes her family; attending public school until the outbreak of war in 1939; the German occupation of Poland and having to endure forced labor; working on a labor detail to construct a railroad station; by 1942 having built a shelter in her family’s basement to hide from the Nazis who were rounding up Jews in the ghetto; later fleeing into the Polish countryside, where a poor Polish farm woman gave them refuge hiding in the potato bin of her barn for sixteen months; surviving on a daily ration of a quart of water and one potato each; finding out that they were liberated in 1944; returning to Ostroh and then going to Łódź, where she met her future husband, a refugee from the Soviet Union, during her stay; leaving for Germany, where she and her future husband spent time in German displaced persons camps in Berlin and Eschwege; and immigrating in 1949 to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Ernst Weihs

    Oral history interview with Ernst Weihs

    Oral History

    Ernst Weihs, born in 1908 in Vienna, Austria and describes his family; his father’s participation in World War I and returning to ask for a divorce from his mother; moving out to the country with his mother and having a difficult life; getting baptized and attending church at the age of 11; finding a job as a gardener to support himself; returning to Vienna in 1928 and living near his father and stepmother; being declared Jewish, having to wear the star, and quitting his gardening job; working for a summer with a Jewish Agency to train for living in Palestine; living in a Swedish mission house associated with the Lutheran church and managing its gardens; working with a Guildemester organization that brought food to people until 1942 when the Germans closed it; being deported to a ghetto in Theresienstadt, Czechoslovakia and then to Auschwitz; his transfer to the Kaufering labor camp, where he worked farming nearby fields; remaining in Kaufering until the spring of 1945, when he had to evacuate toward Dachau; being liberated during the march to Dachau by American troops; getting married and having a baby after the war; and immigrating to the United States and raising his daughter as a Lutheran.

    Oral history interview with Agnes Vogel

    Oral history interview with Agnes Vogel

    Oral History

    Agnes Vogel, born on January 1, 1924 in Debrecen, Hungary, describes her childhood; attending a special school in a Catholic Convent in 1939; being rounded up in June 1944 and put on a transport to Auschwitz; ending up in Strasshof, a transit camp in Austria; starting on a transport toward Bergen-Belsen, a concentration camp in Germany, but turning back to Strasshof because of an air raid that destroyed part of the railroad; her liberation by Soviet troops in 1945; and immigrating to the United States after the war.

    Oral history interview with Dora Goldstein Roth

    Oral history interview with Dora Goldstein Roth

    Oral History

    Dora Goldstein Roth, born on February 1, 1932 in Warsaw, Poland, discusses her family and early childhood; her father’s participation in the Zionist movement; being forced to live inside the Vilnius ghetto; her deportation to the Kaiserwald-Riga, Dinenwerke, and Stutthof camps with her sister and mother; seeing her mother die from hunger; her sister's death in the camp; difficult memories including mass rape of camp inmates, forced labor, and struggling to survive from day to day; deciding while she was still in the camps that she wanted to immigrate to Palestine after the war because she wanted to be surrounded by Jewish people; her liberation by Russian forces; staying in a Jewish hospital for three years to recover from injuries and disease; immigrating to Israel in 1952; getting married and having children; her identity as a mother and Holocaust survivor; and working for the United Jewish Appeal.

    Oral history interview with Yocheved Arie

    Oral history interview with Yocheved Arie

    Oral History

    Yocheved Arie, born in Vilnius, Lithuania on February 15, 1928, discusses the German occupation of Lithuania; how her father and brother were taken away while she and her mother had to go to the ghetto; poor sanitation in the ghetto; aktions in the ghetto carried out by the Germans; the deportation of her mother to Estonia; reuniting with her mother in Estonia; being transported to Stutthof; going to Gdansk where she was forced to make railroad tracks; being liberated along with her mother and several others on the second day of a death march shortly before the end of the war; her postwar return to Vilnius where she and her mother found no survivors from their family; trying to immigrate to Palestine, but remaining in a displaced persons camp in Germany for three years; immigrating to Jerusalem; living with her mother for 40 years until her mother’s death; and her deep understanding about the heroism of Jewish mothers during the Holocaust.

    Oral history interview with Leo Hanin

    Oral history interview with Leo Hanin

    Oral History

    Leo Hanin, born in 1913 in Vilnius, Lithuania, describes his family; his parents’ decision to escape increasing persecution in Europe and move to Harbin, China, where they had a relative, in 1916; the lively Jewish community but not having many relations with the native Chinese; attending a Russian school in Harbin until 1929; moving with his brother to Shanghai around 1934 to attend a British school; getting married in 1936 and moving to Kōbe-shi, Japan to do work for a textile firm; assisting the Joint Distribution Committee in New York to arrange for funds to be sent to Japan to support refugees coming over from Europe; his participation in a Zionist organization and moving to Israel in 1948; staying in Israel for two years and then moving back to Japan; his experiences with helping people adjust to life in Kōbe-shi and immigrate to the United States; and dealing with the rumors that the Jewish leadership of Kōbe-shi stole money donated to them to help refugees.

    Oral history interview with Walter Schnell

    Oral history interview with Walter Schnell

    Oral History

    Walter Schnell, born on April 16, 1904 in Strehlen, Germany (Strzelin, Poland), describes his family and childhood; going to study crystal and porcelain in Berlin, Germany in the early 1920s; having to sell his family’s porcelain and glass business in 1937 because anti-Jewish business laws were becoming too strict; moving to Wrocław after the business sold with his sister and parents; working for a family friend in a wholesale business in Wrocław; his arrest during Kristallnacht and being sent by train through Weimar and on to Buchenwald; being forced to watch the hangings of those prisoners who had escaped from the camp and been caught; being called into the camp’s main office on the second day of Hanukkah and told that his parents had booked him a passage for Panama; finally securing a passage on a ship from Wrocław to Genoa, Italy after jumping through much red tape with Gestapo officials in Wrocław; staying in Genoa for a short time until he traveled on a boat to Shanghai because he did not need official papers to get in; settling in Hongkou, the Jewish suburb of Shanghai; Allied planes accidentally bombing the Jewish quarter of Shanghai; the creation of a Jewish community with its own traditions in Shanghai, including establishing nine hundred yeshivas, keeping kosher, and maintaining a synagogue; discovering that his mother and two cousins had made it to New York; and joining his family in New York after the war.

    Oral history interview with Erna Tebel Stern

    Oral history interview with Erna Tebel Stern

    Oral History

    Erna Tebel Stern, born on October 28, 1901 in Krotoszyn, Poland, describes her childhood; her father’s experiences when he served in the German Army against Russia during World War I; moving to Wroclaw, Poland after the war; not experiencing much official discrimination when Hitler first came to power because her father had served in the German Army; her family’s decision to flee from their home in 1938 when they discovered that prison camps existed; her parents’ capture and deportation; managing to escape to Brussels, Belgium, where she, her first husband, and her brother boarded the S.S. St. Louis and fled for Cuba; her brother’s and first husband’s deportation to an internment camp in Gurs, France after the St. Louis had to return to Brussels; going into hiding from 1940 to 1942 in Brussels, where she met her second husband; attempting to flee in 1942 to Switzerland, where they were imprisoned for a short time and then released to the Salvation Army; moving to Bern, Switzerland, where she worked as a housemaid until the end of the War; returning to Belgium in 1945 with her second husband and opening a blouse manufactory; and marrying her second husband in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Gerda Blachmann Wilchfort

    Oral history interview with Gerda Blachmann Wilchfort

    Oral History

    Gerda Blachmann Wilchfort, born on April 24, 1923 in Wrocław, Poland, describes her family and childhood; experiencing antisemitism and losing friends after Hitler came to power; her memories of the destruction of Kristallnacht; a cousin in Cuba attaining visas for her and her parents to immigrate to Havana, Cuba; booking a passage on the St. Louis and being forced to return to Europe after Cuba and the United States would not accept the ship; arriving in Antwerp, Belgium and signing papers that said they would not work and would accept their status as a refugee; living off a small budget from the United Jewish Appeal; crossing the Belgium border into France by foot but not finding a much better living situation; discovering a castle in the French countryside in which to stay for a few nights; returning to Belgium and moving back into their old apartment building, where they stayed for a couple of years; becoming a seamstress to make some money for her family; joining an underground group with her mother and crossing into France and then Switzerland; finding an apartment building in which to live; discovering that Hitler had died and that the war was coming to an end; and immigrating to the United States to create a new life for herself and her family.

    Oral history interview with Gidon Arye

    Oral history interview with Gidon Arye

    Oral History

    Gidon Arye, born in Vilnius, Lithuania in 1928, describes growing up in an upper middle class family; moving into the Vilnius ghetto in 1941 and being separated from his family; living in the Vilnius ghetto throughout the war and sometimes hiding or working illegally; avoiding the early deportations; escaping roundups and going to the Kailis work camp; smuggling his way into the same work camp that his father; reuniting with his father at the Heeres-Kraftfahr-Park work camp, where they worked for an elderly German fixing automobile machinery; surviving in the camp for some time and avoiding Nazi Aktions and a transfer of inmates to Kaunas, Lithuania; Nazi soldiers retreating from the Allies throughout July 1944; going into hiding with a local carpenter who was an acquaintance of his father from before the war; leaving Vilnius through Poland, Germany, and then France in 1945 with his father and fiancée; and immigrating to Israel in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Carl Knuemann

    Oral history interview with Carl Knuemann

    Oral History

    Carl Knuemann, born on November 15, 1922 in Bydgoszcz, Poland, describes his family and childhood; moving to Germany in 1932 because his father had German citizenship and was a businessman; his father not finding a job and contracting tuberculosis, which allowed him to get a pension from the government since he was a veteran of World War I; his father’s work with Doctor Goerdeler and Albert Einstein in plotting against Hitler; working as a courier in the underground movement; his memories of Kristallnacht; escaping to Hungary after the war broke out and then returning to Berlin once the Nazis invaded Hungary; meeting a Dane in a restaurant and joining the Danish resistance movement by running guns between locations; being drafted and sent to Denmark; his father being too ill to participate in the July 20 plot against Hitler; working in the German armament industry in 1943 and sneaking information out to Allied contacts; and his considerations on his participation in the resistance movement during the war.

    Oral history interview with Michael Vogel

    Oral history interview with Michael Vogel

    Oral History

    Michael Vogel, born on November 29, 1923 in Jacovce, Czechoslovakia, describes moving to and growing up in Topol'čany, Czechoslovakia; the takeover of Topol'čany by the Hlinka Guard in 1939; his deportation to the Slovak-run Novaky prison camp in 1942; his deportation to Auschwitz in late 1942; working in forced labor in camps around Auschwitz, first in the Buna works and then in the Birkenau "Kanada" detachment, where he unloaded incoming trains; his transfer by cattle car to Sachsenhausen and then to Dachau as the Allies neared in late 1944; his final transfer to the Landsberg sub-camp of Dachau; escaping during a death march from Landsberg by hiding in the woods; his liberation by United States forces two weeks after escaping; following the 74th Tank Battalion on their tour through Germany and Czechoslovakia; swearing himself into the United States Army at a G.I. Camp Home Run in Le Havre, France in November 1945 and receiving American citizenship; taking a position doing laundry at Camp Home Run; and eventually immigrating to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Nina Schuster Merrick

    Oral history interview with Nina Schuster Merrick

    Oral History

    Nina Schuster Merrick, born in Rokitno, Poland in 1929, describes growing up in a religious family; attending Hebrew school as a child; hiding with her family in the woods during the 1939 bombing raids; her family’s forced move into a ghetto in Berezdiv, Ukraine when the Germans invaded Poland; forced labor, including peeling potatoes for German soldiers; the SS raid of her home in August 1942 and jumping out a window to avoid getting caught; hiding in the woods and eventually being taken in by a sympathetic Ukrainian general, who was involved with a partisan group; learning to be a nurse and working in the partisan group; the General sending her to Moscow, Russia on February 18, 1943, so she could attend technical school; working in a Moscow factory, where she remained until after the war; going to a Jewish collective farm in Germany; an aunt from Washington, DC contacting her in February 1947; and immigrating to the United States to live with her aunt in late 1947.

    Oral history interview with Eva Rozencwajig Stock

    Oral history interview with Eva Rozencwajig Stock

    Oral History

    Eva Rozencwajig Stock, born on January 15, 1919 in Kozienice, Poland, describes her family; the establishment of the Kozienice ghetto in 1939 and moving into it; bribing officials to have her family taken together to Skarżysko-Kamienna, a forced labor camp in Poland, during the liquidation of the ghetto; managing to move her family to Szydlowiec and then to Pionki, Poland, where they worked in an ammunition factory; the deportation of her father and brother to Mauthausen, where they both died; being deported to Auschwitz with her mother and sisters; their transfer to Bergen-Belsen and then to Elsnig, a sub-camp of Buchenwald in Germany; returning to Poland at the end of the war and then leaving in 1949 for Israel; and immigrating to the United States in 1959.

    Oral history interview with Ivo Herzer

    Oral history interview with Ivo Herzer

    Oral History

    Ivo Herzer, born in Zagreb, Yugoslavia (Croatia) on February 5, 1925, describes his early childhood; the introduction of anti-Jewish, Serb, and Romani legislation in 1941 by the Croatian Ustaša government; his arrest at sixteen years of age by a Croatian official and going to a transit camp in the outskirts of Zagreb for a short period until an Ustaša officer told him to return home; escaping with his family in July 1941 to the Italian-Croatian border and ending up in Gospić, Yugoslavia (Croatia); being put onto a military train, returning them to Croatia; escaping the train with the help of smugglers; moving to Susak, Croatia, where they hid for one month; Italian authorities sending his family and about sixty other Jewish refugees to Crikvenica, Croatia, where they lived under Italian protection in the Italian zone in Yugoslavia; the Italian authorities placing the Jewish refugees in a camp in 1942 until 1943, when the Italians brought them and two thousand other Jewish refugees into one camp on the island of Arbe, Dalmatia (Croatia); the Italian surrender to the Germans in 1943 and fleeing to southern Italy to the Allied occupied part of Italy; traveling with his family to the Croatian island of Vis and getting picked up by a British military ship and taken to Bari, Italy; the British directing his family to Taranto, Italy, where they were placed in a camp under British control; leaving the British camp and traveling to Bari; working as a translator and typist for the British Army in Bari after he was liberated; moving to Rome, Italy to work for the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee from 1946 to 1948; and immigrating to the United States in 1955.

    Oral history interview with Boleslaw Brodecki

    Oral history interview with Boleslaw Brodecki

    Oral History

    Boleslaw Brodecki, born in March 1921 in Warsaw, Poland, describes his family; the German invasion in September 1939; boarding a train with his sister and escaping to Rostov, Russia while she went to Prużana, Poland; rejoining his sister in Prużana after the German invasion of Soviet territories in June 1941; entering the Prużana ghetto and staying there until he was deported to Birkenau in the winter of 1941 or 1942; being marched to Auschwitz I and then to Swietochlowice, Poland, where he worked in a machine factory making parts for airplanes; being sent on a forced march as the Russian army approached; arriving in Mauthausen and working in a nearby factory; being marched to various camps including Gräditz-Bareza, Flossenbürg, and Theresienstadt; his liberation in Theresienstadt by Soviet forces in 1945; going to a displaced persons camp in Landsberg am Lech, Germany in 1945 and getting a job as a policeman; meeting and marrying his wife, Sonia Brodecki, in the camp in December 1945; having a son and then immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Irene Weber

    Oral history interview with Irene Weber

    Oral History

    Irene Weber, born in Sosnowiec, Poland, describes her family; attending a Polish school until she was about 10 years old, when the war began; the immediate effects of the war on her family, including the closing of her father’s business and the German raids on her home; her father and brother secretly educating her at home; receiving a work card and having to cut thread at a factory; being taken from the factory and sent to the Gliwice labor camp; discovering that her father had died of a heart attack shortly before her deportation; staying in Gliwice from March 1943 to May 1945, when she and others were evacuated from the camp because the Russians neared; being taken care of by some of the older female prisoners; her liberation by the International Red Cross in May 1945; being taken to a hospital to recuperate; having no desire to return to her hometown and see the destruction there; staying on a farm instead of going into a displaced persons camp; going to school in Munich, Germany with the help of the UNRRA; and meeting her husband and deciding to immigrate to the United States with him.

    Oral history interview with Josef

    Oral history interview with Josef

    Oral History

    Josef, born on June 25, 1915 in Vienna, Austria, describes his family; moving to Przemyśl, Poland when he was a child; fleeing to Lwów, Poland after the war broke out in 1939; returning to Przemyśl, which came under Russian occupation when Poland was divided between the Russians and the Germans; the German invasion on June 22, 1941; German troops issuing decrees restricting the rights and opportunities of the town’s Jewish population; moving into a designated Jewish ghetto in Przemyśl; meeting his future wife Stefania Podgófrska, who helped his family by smuggling food and other supplies to them in the ghetto; losing both of his parents during a ghetto Aktion; his deportation from the ghetto on November 18, 1942; using pliers he had in his pocket to cut through the wires covering the small window in the train car and jumping out of the train; getting slightly injured but being able to walk to Lipowice, Poland, where a friend provided him with shelter for a night and smuggled him back into Przemyśl the next morning; immediately going to Stefania, who hid him in her apartment for several days until he could smuggle himself back into the ghetto to be with one of his brothers; Stefania obtaining false papers for him and a few of his friends in the ghetto and finding a small cottage where they could hide; leaving the ghetto to meet with Stefania and her younger sister and to construct hiding places; hiding in the cottage with thirteen people for almost two years; his liberation by Russian troops and marrying Stefania; moving to Kraków and then to Wrocław, Poland, where he graduated from dental school; and immigrating to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Stanislaw Soszynski

    Oral history interview with Stanislaw Soszynski

    Oral History

    Stanislaw Soszynski, born on February 24, 1931 in Warsaw, Poland, describes his neighborhood in Warsaw on Swietojerska Street; the destruction of Warsaw and the Germans opening the Warsaw Ghetto; living in an apartment where the front part was on the Aryan side, and the back part was on the ghetto side, which helped smuggling operations later in the war; going out of the ghetto area to get milk and sell it to support his family; his memories of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising; the massive destruction of the ghetto after the uprising; and the uprising in 1944.

    Oral history interview with Abraham Lewent

    Oral history interview with Abraham Lewent

    Oral History

    Abraham Lewent, born in July 1924 in Warsaw, Poland, describes his family; entering the Warsaw ghetto after the German occupation; hiding in a crawl space during a 1942 German raid and witnessing the capture of his mother and sisters; being deployed for forced labor nearby but escaping to return to his father in the ghetto; remaining in the ghetto until the uprising; his and his father’s deportation in 1943 to Majdanek, where his father died; his transfers to Skarzysko-Kamienna, Buchenwald, Schlieben, Bisingen, and finally to Dachau; and his liberation by American troops.

    Oral history interview with Miriam Storch Lewent

    Oral history interview with Miriam Storch Lewent

    Oral History

    Miriam Storch Lewent, born on June 26, 1926 in Zamość, Poland, describes her family and childhood; fleeing her home when the Germans invaded Poland in 1939; her family’s internment by Soviet forces and being deported to Siberia; cutting down trees to earn food rations near Tomsk, Russia; the Soviets releasing her and her family when the Soviet Union went to war with Germany in June 1941; her two brothers registering with the Russian Army and the rest of her family settling in Kazakhstan, where they lived for the rest of the war; her father teaching Hebrew to Jewish children in their new home; attempting to return to Poland after the war but encountering too much antisemitism; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Liane Reif-Lehrer

    Oral history interview with Liane Reif-Lehrer

    Oral History

    Liane Reif-Lehrer, born in Vienna, Austria in November 1934, describes growing up in a middle-class family; obtaining a passport in 1938 to immigrate to the United States but not being able to go when her father, a dentist, killed himself because he had to close his practice; traveling with her brother and mother to Hamburg, Germany in 1939 to board the St. Louis, which was bound for Cuba; arriving in Cuba and having to return to Europe, where they ended up in France; getting a visa to immigrate to the United States after staying in France for two-and-a-half years; traveling through Spain and leaving Europe from Lisbon, Portugal on the S.S. Exeter and arriving in the United States on November 10, 1941; living with the sister of Liane's father and her children in New York; earning her Ph.D. in chemistry from the University of California at Berkeley and working for many years as an Associate Professor at Harvard Medical School; and now working as a consultant and a writer.

    Oral history interview with Preben Munch-Nielsen

    Oral history interview with Preben Munch-Nielsen

    Oral History

    Preben Munch-Nielsen, born in 1926 in Snekkersten, Denmark, describes growing up in a Protestant family; attending school in Copenhagen; the German invasion of Denmark in 1940; becoming a courier in the resistance and being one of the youngest resistance fighters; helping to hide refugees in houses near the shore and to get them on boats to Sweden once the Gestapo began hunting down Jews in Denmark in October 1943; taking refuge in Sweden in November 1943 and joining the Danish Brigade, in which he fought as a soldier for eighteen months; helping to smuggle arms into Denmark for resistance fighters; and settling in Denmark in May 1945 after the war.

    Oral history interview with Anny Rubinstein Kast

    Oral history interview with Anny Rubinstein Kast

    Oral History

    Anny Rubinstein Kast, born in Poland in 1926, describes moving to Belgium when she was two months old; her family and her childhood in Belgium; attending school in Antwerp before the war; the German invasion of Belgium on May 10, 1940; someone reporting to the Germans that her family was the only Jewish one left in their neighborhood and then being picked up a few days later; living with the aunt of a friend during her family’s deportation and taking on a false identity; studying German, English, and mathematics lessons during the war; her liberation in 1944 when the English troops entered her town; her uncle finding her and opening up a fur store in Antwerp to support her and other surviving family members; immigrating to Israel after the war; and getting married in 1967.

    Oral history interview with Helen Waterford

    Oral history interview with Helen Waterford

    Oral History

    Helen Waterford, born in Germany in April 14, 1909, discusses her 1933 marriage; her move to Amsterdam in 1934; working for many years to help Jews from Germany relocate to the Netherlands; going into hiding in October 1942 with her husband but without her daughter; the Germans discovering them on August 26, 1944 and interrogating them for two days about the network of people who assisted them in hiding; her deportation to Westerbork and then to Auschwitz-Birkenau; her husband’s death in Auschwitz; remaining in Birkenau until October 1944, when she was forced to work in the Kratzau factory in Czechoslovakia; going into a prisoner of war camp, where she remained until her liberation; traveling to a displaced persons camp at Plzen, Czechoslovakia; returning to the Netherlands, where she reunited with her daughter; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Thomas Ward

    Oral history interview with Thomas Ward

    Oral History

    Thomas Ward, born on August 10, 1921 in St. Louis, MO, describes joining the army when he was twenty years old; serving in General Patton's Third Army; working as a part of a three-person reconnaissance team in the Third Cavalry division; liberating 18,000 prisoners from the Ebensee concentration camp on May 5th, 1945; liberating a neighboring camp for women several days later; taking photographs in the camps (which he sent to the Supreme Allied Command); and his views on Holocaust denial.

    Oral history interview with Fred R. Wohl

    Oral history interview with Fred R. Wohl

    Oral History

    Fred R. Wohl, born in 1914 in Baden-Baden, Germany, describes growing up in Germany after World War I; leaving to work on a farm in Switzerland in 1932 for four months; working in Athens, Greece in 1935 and trying to get a Greek passport for fear of what the Germans were planning; moving to Nicosia, Cyprus in March 1939 with the help of the British Ambassador to Athens; the German invasion of Greece and being interned with refugees in a camp next to the Nicosia prison; being sent to a hotel-camp in the mountains with his father but soon being released; the Nazi invasion of Crete in 1941 and preparing for evacuation; traveling to Tel Aviv, Israel and then to Mwanza, Tanzania; working in a gold mine and contracting black water fever in Tanganyika, Tanzania; and immigrating to the United States in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Norbert Yasharoff

    Oral history interview with Norbert Yasharoff

    Oral History

    Norbert Yasharoff, born in 1930 in Sofia, Bulgaria, describes the anti-Jewish measures enforced by the Nazis when World War II began; Bulgaria joining the Axis Alliance in March 1941, allowing German troops to pass through Sofia; the expulsion of some Jewish families to Poland in March 1943 and a bloody protest soon after; leaving with his family to Pleven, Bulgaria in May 1943 and staying with family members; attending a Gentile school while in Pleven, where his teacher did not force him to perform the Nazi salute; his liberation on September 9, 1944 and returning to Sofia with his family; immigrating to Israel in December 1948; joining the volunteer air force, where he trained as a radar technician; graduating with a degree from Tel Aviv University in Political Science and residing in Israel for twenty years; and working in an American Embassy for nine years until he immigrated to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Frank Meissner

    Oral history interview with Frank Meissner

    Oral History

    Frank Meissner, born in Třešt̕, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic) in 1923, describes his family; joining a Zionist youth group and traveling to Prague, Czech Republic to live with other members of the group in 1937; the group’s fear of anti-Jewish Nazi policies and subsequently leaving Czechoslovakia to settle in Denmark; attending agricultural school at the University of Copenhagen; receiving a call in 1943 from his landlady, who warned him to not return home because the Gestapo had been looking for him; being smuggled onto a fishing boat to Sweden, where he finished his education; traveling to England in September 1944 and starting to contact his family but learning that they had all been taken to Theresienstadt (Terezin) and eventually to Auschwitz, where they perished; returning briefly to Prague and then going to Denmark in 1946; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Mina Perlberger

    Oral history interview with Mina Perlberger

    Oral History

    Mina Perlberger, born on December 25, 1918 in Tyczyn, Poland, describes growing up in a strict Hasidic Jewish family; the German invasion of Poland while her family was in the process of moving to Kraków in 1939; her family’s assignment to do forced labor outside of Tyczyn; working as a black market trader until 1942, when her family's home was seized by the Gestapo; being forced into the ghetto in Rzeszów, Poland; the deportation of her parents to Auschwitz in late 1942; escaping the ghetto with her younger sister and hiding with a Polish farmer in exchange for a payment; hiding with the farmer for 21 months until the Soviet Army liberated them in 1944; meeting her future husband, a Soviet Jew, in Blażowa, Poland; marrying her husband and moving to Austria after the war with the help of a Jewish organization; and immigrating to the United States soon after arriving in Austria.

    Oral history interview with David Klebanow

    Oral history interview with David Klebanow

    Oral History

    David Klebanow, born in 1907 in Barysaŭ, Russia (now Belarus), describes his family and childhood; fleeing to Kiev, Ukraine in 1917 after the Russian Revolution and then to Białystok, Poland; becoming a doctor in 1937 and then being drafted into the Polish Army in 1939; returning to Białystok when he was released from the army and then marrying his wife; being taken to Kaunas, Lithuania and then to Riga, Latvia with his wife; performing abortions to save the lives of pregnant women and staying in Riga for two years; his deportation to Stutthof and then to Danzig, from where they were liberated on March 10, 1945; his wife dying of tuberculosis; working at the Munich University Hospital as an obstetrician after the war; noticing genital abnormalities, sterility problems, and a higher rate of miscarriages among women who had survived concentration camps; and immigrating in 1951 to the United States, where he joined the obstetrics department at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York.

    Oral history interview with Franz Wohlfahrt

    Oral history interview with Franz Wohlfahrt

    Oral History

    Franz Wohlfahrt, born in 1920 in Velden am Wörthersee, Austria, describes growing up in a family of Jehovah's Witnesses; the arrest of his father in 1936 for peddling in the street as part of his activities as a Jehovah’s Witness; the German annexation of Austria in 1938; refusing to go to a Hitler Youth meetings and say the “Heil Hitler” greeting, which resulted in German troops monitoring his activities; the execution of his father on December 7, 1939 and his brother soon after because they refused to participate in the war and fight for the German state; the general persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses during World War II since they would not worship Hitler; agreeing to do work for the German state but not participate in military exercises, which resulted in his imprisonment in a dungeon for thirty-three days in 1940; being transferred to the Gestapo office in Graz for further questioning; his deportation to a work camp at Allweiter Rodgau, in the Hessen-Nassau province, because he would not fight for the German state; being saved by a camp commandant’s wife because he painted wall paper for her; his liberation by Allied troops while he was still in the camp; and returning home to find that few people he knew had survived.

    Oral history interview with Tove Schöbaum Bamberger

    Oral history interview with Tove Schöbaum Bamberger

    Oral History

    Tove Schöbaum Bamberger, born on October 8, 1934 in Copenhagen, Denmark, describes growing up in a wealthy family; her father’s ownership of a men’s clothing business; attending first and second grade at a Jewish school before her family fled from Denmark on October 2, 1940; taking a train to the seaport in Snekkersten, Denmark and then traveling on a fishing boat until a Swedish ship intercepted them at sea and took them to Sweden, where they settled in Malmö; her father working in a chocolate factory and selling artificial teeth; her mother selling lingerie; attending school with her sister; returning to Copenhagen on May 28, 1945 to find her family home and store undisturbed; and immigrating to the United States with her husband in 1956.

    Oral history interview with Morris Gordon

    Oral history interview with Morris Gordon

    Oral History

    Morris Gordon, born in Latvia, describes immigrating with his father to the United States; growing up in New York, NY; attending City College and Columbia University; being ordained as a rabbi in 1940; volunteering for the military in 1942; his participation in The Flying Tigers; going to India briefly then Burma; traveling through the jungles of Burma to get to different camps and getting lost three times; taking his Torah with him everywhere he went; arriving in Shanghai as a Jewish chaplain and being greeted by a large Jewish community; conducting a Bar Mitzvah with a boy; his memories of the Shanghai Jewish ghetto and its schools; and receiving a chalice from a Catholic chaplain during the war to help him perform his services.

    Oral history interview with Raya Markon

    Oral History

    Raya Markon, born in 1911 in Vilnius, Lithuania, discusses her childhood; going to college for one year in Toulouse, France; getting married in Paris, France in 1936; her husband's mobilization into the French Army in 1938; her escape from Paris two days before the German invasion in 1940; returning to Toulouse to take refuge with friends and the birth of her son; getting a visa to the United States and difficulties in obtaining an exit visa from France; and her and her family's immigration to the United States in November 1942.

    Oral history interview with Ernest G. Heppner

    Oral history interview with Ernest G. Heppner

    Oral History

    Ernest G. Heppner, born in 1921 in Germany, describes his experiences with antisemitism in his youth; participating in a Jewish youth organization; his father’s positive experiences running a factory in the mid-1930s; being kicked out of school and learning how to weld; losing any sense of hope for German Jews after his experiences on Kristallnacht; his family being forced to sell their house and considering immigration; he and his mother getting a place on a steamship to Shanghai, China by giving the captain of the ship some of their Impressionist paintings; arriving in Shanghai in March 1939; his mother finding a job with a youth committee; communicating through letters with his father and sister back home a few times before never hearing from them again; participating in the British Boy Scout Association in Shanghai; seeing the Imperial Japanese Naval Landing Party come into Shanghai after Pearl Harbor and acting as a British spy; the Jews of Shanghai being forced into a ghetto-like area of the city in February 1943; finding a job in a bakery and meeting his future wife in the ghetto; getting married shortly before the end of the war and going to work for the American occupying forces; his memories of life in the ghetto; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Emanuel Mandel

    Oral history interview with Emanuel Mandel

    Oral History

    Emanuel Mandel, born in 1936 in Riga, Latvia, describes his family moving to Budapest, Hungary when he was three months old; his family; his father’s work as a cantor that led him to travel around and work in several synagogues in Europe; not understanding that he could not have or do certain things because he was Jewish; the German invasion of Budapest in early 1944; his deportation by cattle car in June 1944 to Bergen-Belsen with his mother; developing pneumonia and not having access to much food while in the camp; developing a sense of comic relief, like by calling a German troop “Popeye,” to survive; participating in a Red Cross inspection of Bergen-Belsen; in January 1945 being taken by German soldiers on a train towards the German-Swiss border and being released in Switzerland, where they were cleaned and fed; traveling to Saint Gallen and then to Caux, Switzerland to stay in a displaced persons center; reuniting with his father after the war; his mother’s decision to go to Heiden after the war to run a one-room school house for six- to fourteen-years olds to learn Hungarian; immigrating to Palestine by a British troop carrier in September 1945 and living in a kibbutz, where his mother took charge of the day shift cooking; and immigrating to the United States in March 1949.

    Oral history interview with Leo Bretholz

    Oral history interview with Leo Bretholz

    Oral History

    Leo Bretholz, born on March 6, 1921 in Vienna, Austria, describes his childhood; his father passing away in 1930 and becoming a father figure for his two younger sisters; long-standing antisemitic attitudes transforming into excessive violence after the Anschluss in 1938; the arrest of his friends and his mother encouraging him to flee to Luxembourg, where he had an aunt; being arrested three days after he arrived in Luxembourg, questioned for several hours, and released to a train station; returning to Luxembourg and staying with relatives until he had the opportunity to cross the border into Belgium on November 9, 1938 and go to Antwerp, where he found distant relatives and stayed until May of 1940; receiving an affidavit and visa from an aunt in Baltimore, MD to immigrate to the United States but being unable to leave because Pearl Harbor was bombed the day he was scheduled to go; obtaining the necessary documents to cross into Switzerland in October 1942, but getting arrested and taken to Rivesaltes; his deportation to Drancy, another French detention camp, where he stayed for a short time before he and other prisoners were loaded onto cattle cars for transport; escaping deportation by bending the bars covering one of the train’s windows and squeezing through and jumping out of the train; making his way to Paris, where he obtained a false identification card; his arrest in December and then being sent to prison for nine months until he went to a forced labor camp in Septfonds, France; escaping from the camp and contacting a friend who got him in touch with an underground resistance group in Saint-Vallier, France, which he joined in November 1943; helping children cross the border into Switzerland, making false ID cards, and relaying messages between various resistance organizations; working with the resistance after D-Day and helping the Allied forces; and receiving an affidavit from his aunt in Baltimore that allowed him to immigrate to the United States in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Paul Matasovski

    Oral history interview with Paul Matasovski

    Oral History

    Paul Matasovski, born in Bacău, Moldavia (now Romania) in December 1933, describes his family and early childhood; his family getting a radio in 1933 to find out what Hitler was doing in Europe; the political situation with the Iron Guard and General Antonescu; the Jews having their radios taken from their homes but receiving news by passing around sheets of paper; attending a Jewish high school until the end of 1942, when he was sent to work in a textile factory; participating in sabotage activities until he was arrested in the spring of 1944; remaining in a prison near the Carpathian Mountains until Russian forces liberated him; his knowledge of transports and concentration camps during the war; the composition of the people in his underground group and their activities; and returning to his hometown to help clean up the mess after the war.

    Oral history interview with Zelda Piekarska Brodecki

    Oral history interview with Zelda Piekarska Brodecki

    Oral History

    Zelda Piekarska Brodecki (Americanized name, Sonia Brodecki), born on July 27, 1928 in Sosnowiec, Poland, describes her family; the German occupation of her town and her family having to close their business; entering the Sosnowiec ghetto and being forced to work in a factory; her deportation from the ghetto to a forced labor camp near Wrocław, Poland; her transfer in 1943 to another labor camp in Klettendorf, Germany (Klecina, Wrocław, Poland); Russian troops liberating her at an ammunition factory in Ludwigsdorf, a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen in Germany; returning to Sosnowiec after the war and meeting her cousin there; moving to the Landsberg am Lech displaced persons camp, where she met her husband, Boleslaw Brodecki; and living in Germany until 1949 when she and her husband immigrated to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Stefania Podgórska Burzminski

    Oral history interview with Stefania Podgórska Burzminski

    Oral History

    Stefania Podgórska Burzminski, born in Lipa, Poland, describes her family and childhood; helping her parents run a farm until she decided to move with her sister to Przemyśl and work in a bakery; the Russian invasion and not noticing much of a change in life until the Germans ousted the Russians; living in an apartment near the ghetto and witnessing people being deported from it; developing a relationship with a young man named Josef, who was Jewish and lived in the ghetto; having to explain what a Jew was to her little sister; helping to smuggle food into the ghetto for Josef and his family; moving into a large apartment and taking Josef and twelve other Jews in with her; having an SS man insist upon taking a room in her apartment and always living in fear that he would kill the Jews living there; and her liberation by Russian forces.

    Oral history interview with Rose Galek Brunswic

    Oral history interview with Rose Galek Brunswic

    Oral History

    Rose Galek Brunswic, born in Sochocin, Poland in 1920, describes her family; learning Hebrew and participating in a Zionist organization in her youth; moving to Warsaw in the mid-1930s; being forced into the Warsaw ghetto and living with twelve other people; her parents being shot during a roundup; going into hiding with the underground in March 1941; leaving her hiding place and finding another one in the city with an old work friend of her father; being caught by the Germans during a raid and sent by cattle car to Berlin; using her false papers to get a job on a farm; pretending to be a Seventh Day Adventist and playing the organ for the church; getting in trouble for not having the proper identification and having to do translations for a judge as penance; her liberation by American soldiers in 1945 when she was still working on the farm; meeting a Jewish soldier and marrying him; staying in a displaced persons camp after the war until she immigrated to the United States to live with her uncle; and settling in Buffalo, New York, where she attended school.

    Oral history interview with Renée Schwalb Fritz

    Oral history interview with Renée Schwalb Fritz

    Oral History

    Renée Schwalb Fritz, born in 1937 in Vienna, Austria, describes her family; her father leaving for the United States in 1939 and fleeing with her mother to Belgium; the German occupation of Belgium in 1940 and going into hiding in a convent, where she remained for two years until the Germans became suspicious; the underground taking Renee to a Protestant family's farm and then to an orphanage; reuniting with her mother after the war and discovering that she had survived Auschwitz; joining her father in the United States five years later; going through high school in the US with much difficulty; attending Boston University; and marrying an American man soon after she graduated from college.

    Oral history interview with Martin Spett

    Oral history interview with Martin Spett

    Oral History

    Martin Spett, born on December 2, 1928 in Tarnów, Poland, describes his childhood; the German occupation of Tarnów in 1939; his family losing their apartment in 1940; hiding in an attic when the first massacre of Jews occurred; having to finally register as a Jew in May 1943 and go to Bergen-Belsen, where he was allegedly to be part of an exchange for German prisoners of war; being liberated on April 13, 1945 by Allied troops during his transport to Theresienstadt; spending some time in Belgium after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Ion Cioaba

    Oral history interview with Ion Cioaba

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Niels Bamberger

    Oral history interview with Niels Bamberger

    Oral History

    Niels Bamberger, born on October 21, 1928 in Würzburg, Germany, describes growing up in a religious family; fleeing from Germany to his mother's hometown of Copenhagen, Denmark in 1932; his family being warned of imminent danger on Rosh Hashanah of 1943; their local grocer helping them to escape to the port town of Snekkersten, Denmark (the closest point between Denmark and Sweden); receiving help from the local resistance forces and hiding in houses until their group of over two hundred could be transported in row boats; a Swedish military boat intercepting his family at sea and taking them to Sweden; attending school in Lund, Sweden while his parents opened a small restaurant; his family’s return to Denmark on May 28, 1945 to find their old home undisturbed; and getting back on his feet after the war.

    Oral history interview with Ray Buch

    Oral history interview with Ray Buch

    Oral History

    Ray Buch, born on September 18, 1920 in New York City, NY, describes his parents and their emigration from Ukraine; joining the US Army in November 1942 and going into training in Louisiana and Texas for a year; being shipped to England in September 1944; fighting in the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944 and encountering fighting and violence; finding out about the concentration camps and death camps; his unit’s attempts to bury people who had died alongside the roads; arriving in Mauthausen on May 10, 1945 and the scenes of people and depravation he witnessed; forcing the German citizens to bury the dead; spending about thirty days in Mauthausen and then moving around to other camps, like Dachau and Ebensee; and the sacrifices his unit made for the sake of the freedom of Europe and the United States.

    Oral history interview with Nina Kaleska

    Oral history interview with Nina Kaleska

    Oral History

    Nina Kaleska, born on April 11, 1929 in Grodno, Poland (now Hrodna, Belarus), describes having a pleasant childhood; her family not being perceived of as Jewish because of their Aryan looks; experiencing antisemitism among her childhood friends in 1938; joining the Young Pioneers after the Russians invaded in 1939; her father’s imprisonment for three to four months for political reasons; the German invasion in 1941 and the formation of two ghettos in Grodno; the Germans selecting one of her cousins, who was considered an electronics genius, for forced labor but then killing him; peasant families offering to hide her and her sister but rejecting because she did not want to be separated from her family; being deported with her sister to Auschwitz in 1941; the death of her sister three months after they arrived; becoming sick in the camp several times and only being saved because of the help she received from a woman named Martha who worked there; being asked by Dr. Mengele if she was Jewish because she did not look Jewish; having to stand guard while the head of her lager had sex with some of the most beautiful women in the lager; going on a death march and being liberated by Allied forces on May 5, 1945; and her immigration to England and then to the United States with the help of the American Joint Distribution Committee.

    Oral history interview with Judith Meisel

    Oral history interview with Judith Meisel

    Oral History

    Judith Meisel, born on February 7, 1929 in Josvainiai, Lithuania, discusses her childhood; moving to Kaunas, Lithuania shortly after her father’s death; being forced into the Kaunas ghetto in 1941; her family’s deportation in 1944 to Stutthof, where her mother was killed; escaping with her sister from a death march out of Stutthof by hiding in a coal bin; receiving shelter in a Catholic nunnery; developing typhus and posing as a Christian in a hospital in Danzig, Poland to receive treatment; finding work on a farm with her sister; moving to Copenhagen, Denmark, where she was sent to school; her liberation on May 5, 1945; living with a Jewish family in Denmark for some time after the war; immigrating to Canada in 1948; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Thomas Buergenthal

    Oral history interview with Thomas Buergenthal

    Oral History

    Thomas Buergenthal, born in 1934 in Czechoslovakia, describes his family; moving with his family to Žilina, Czechoslovakia in 1938 and facing persecution from the Hlinka Guard; moving to Katowice, Poland and registering with the British Consul; leaving for England on September 1, 1939 but being stopped near the Russian border when their train was bombed by Germans; having to march with a group of refugees to Kielce, Poland and go into its ghetto; the deportation of his grandparents and twenty thousand other ghetto inhabitants in August 1942 to Treblinka while he and his parents were sent to a forced labor camp in Kielce; surviving a massacre of Jewish children and then being transported with his parents to a factory where they made wooden carts for the Eastern Front; his deportation in August 1944 to Auschwitz-Birkenau, where he worked in the laundry as an errand boy; getting separated from his father and never seeing him again; being forced on a death march to Gliwice, Poland and then to Heinkel concentration camp in Oranienburg, Germany in January 1945; his transfer to a sub-camp of Sachsenhausen; his liberation on April 27, 1945 by Russian soldiers; marching with the First Polish Division into Berlin, Germany and Siedlce, Poland and then being placed in a Jewish orphanage in Otwock, Poland; his mother finding him in 1946 and smuggling him into the British zone of Germany; living in Göttingen, Germany and attending high school there; immigrating by himself to the United States in 1951 to live with his uncle; his mother remarrying and staying in Europe; attending Harvard Law School and becoming a professor of International Law at the George Washington University Law School; and serving on the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the United States Holocaust Memorial Council’s Committee on Conscience.

    Oral history interview with Leif Donde

    Oral history interview with Leif Donde

    Oral History

    Leif Donde, born in 1937 in Copenhagen, Denmark, describes his upbringing in a religious but not Orthodox Jewish family; the German occupation of Denmark in April 1940; seeing the German police begin to arrest Jews in early October 1943 and fleeing with his family by train to the Danish city of Nykøbing Falster, south of Sjælland island; being smuggled by a fishing boat to safety in Sweden; arriving in Trelleborg, Sweden after an eleven-hour nighttime boat ride in October 1943, during which they passed through a German mine field; attending school in Sweden while his parents worked in a garment factory in Uddevalla, Sweden; his family returning to Denmark after the end of the war; and settling in Denmark, where he serves as the Consul General.

    Oral history interview with Elizabeth Kaufmann Koenig

    Oral history interview with Elizabeth Kaufmann Koenig

    Oral History

    Elizabeth Kaufmann Koenig, born in Vienna, Austria on March 7, 1924, describes her family and childhood; enjoying the rich cultural life Vienna had to offer before the war; her father’s placement on the Nazi blacklist for being a liberal writer and journalist; attempting to leave Austria and go to France but getting arrested and sent to prison; escaping to Cologne, where her mother managed to attain three visas by giving up some of her jewelry; moving to Paris, where her father found a job as a reporter; attending art school in Paris and meeting her future husband; the deportation of her father and brother to concentration camps when Germany declared war on France; her father’s return home for a short period until he had to join the French Army; running away from Paris and going through several cities until she arrived in Blois, France and began to search for her father; getting separated from her family and asking about their whereabouts wherever she went; reuniting with her mother in Barcus, France; finding a teaching job in Le Chambon-sur-Lignon, France through a family friend who lived there; her family receiving special visas to move to the United States on December 7, 1941 because her father was an intellectual; attending college in the United States; and marrying Ernest, the man she had earlier met in Paris.

    Oral history interview with Max Amichai Heppner

    Oral history interview with Max Amichai Heppner

    Oral History

    Max Amichai Heppner, born on October 15, 1933 in Amsterdam, Netherlands, describes growing up as an only child; his parents’ escape from Berlin, Germany in 1933; the Nazi invasion of the Netherlands and missing a boat to escape to Sweden; losing several of his family’s possessions to the Nazis; his mother getting captured during a street raid but then being released by a Nazi commander in August 1942; escaping into the countryside with his parents and finding various hiding places with another family; going into hiding with underground forces and then with a farming family; dealing with frequent Nazi raids; meeting several downed Allied pilots while in hiding; his liberation by Scottish soldiers on September 24, 1944; his mother’s attempts to shield him from much of the devastation of the war; and immigrating to the United States to live with his mother’s family.

    Oral history interview with Charles Bruml

    Oral history interview with Charles Bruml

    Oral History

    Charles Bruml, born in Prague, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic), describes his family and the Prague Jewish community; being about 28 years old and working in an import-export firm in 1938 when German troops marched into Prague; his family’s deportation to Theresienstadt and finding a job in the camp’s Technical Department; making paintings during his internment that are displayed at the camps today; his deportation to Auschwitz on January 11, 1942 and getting tattooed; being transferred to Buna (Monowitz), where he worked as a painter for the SS men until January 18, 1945; being forced to walk to Gleiwitz, because the Russians neared, and then to Bergen-Belsen, where the Red Cross liberated him; and meeting his wife in Prague as they both tried to sort out the fates of their families.

    Oral history interview with David Pollack

    Oral history interview with David Pollack

    Oral History

    David Pollack, born in Prince Albert, Saskatechewan, Canada in 1922, describes growing up in a mildly Jewish family; enlisting in the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1942 but not being accepted as a pilot because of his poor eyesight; being trained as a radar technician and stationed first in the Queen Charlotte Islands and then in England in 1943; joining a mobile radar unit outside of Weimar, Germany in 1945 and visiting Buchenwald, where he was shocked by the horrors of the camp; speaking, with the aid of a translator, to many prisoners, taking the names and the addresses of their relatives who were in other countries, and contacting these relatives to inform them that the prisoners would soon be arriving in displaced persons camps and contacting them for help; returning to Canada after the war; and keeping up correspondence with some of the survivors he had helped to reunite with their families.

    Oral history interview with Eugene Lipman

    Oral history interview with Eugene Lipman

    Oral History

    Rabbi Eugene Lipman, born in Pittsburgh, PA on October 13, 1919, describes his family; graduating from Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio; being sent overseas as an army chaplain in April 1945; after the war helping Jewish survivors at Buchenwald and Dachau before being sent to Plzen, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic); joining the Haganah, a group that cared for Jewish survivors and refugees as well as secretly transporting Jews to Palestine; continuing his work with the Haganah in Regensburg, Germany; going home to the United States for a short time in April 1946 but returning in late 1946 with his wife to continue to aid Jews by providing many with false identity papers for them to leave Europe; and returning to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Hetty d'Ancona de Leeuwe

    Oral history interview with Hetty d'Ancona de Leeuwe

    Oral History

    Hetty d’Ancona de Leeuwe, born on May 1, 1930 in Amsterdam, Netherlands, describes her family and early childhood; her father losing his business after the German invasion; the deportation of several of her friends and family in 1942; her father’s participation in the Dutch underground newspaper; leaving Amsterdam in October 1943 and separating from her parents to live with a Dutch Gentile family for two years; her liberation by American and British forces and staying with her foster family for a few months until she reunited with her father; and marrying a Jewish man and immigrating to the United States with him after the war.

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral history interview with Marty Glickman

    Oral History

    Marty Glickman, born in 1917 in the Bronx, NY, describes growing up with parents who were immigrants from Romania; attending Syracuse University, where he was a track athlete chosen to compete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics in Germany; being one of two Jews on the United States Olympic track team; arriving in the Olympic Village and being told that he and Sam Stoller, the other Jewish runner, were to be replaced in the 400 meter relay by Ralph Metcalf and Jessie Owens; hearing from the head coach of the Olympic track team that the substitutions were made because the Germans were said to be hiding their best sprinters but believing that he was really replaced because Avery Brundage, president of the American Olympic Committee, did not want to further embarrass the Nazis by having Jews run and win a race; serving in the United States Marine Corps in the Pacific during World War II; going to the Marshall Islands; and his friendship with Jesse Owens.

    Oral history interview with Susie Gruenbaum Schwarz

    Oral history interview with Susie Gruenbaum Schwarz

    Oral History

    Susie Gruenbaum Schwarz, born in 1931 in Schlüchtern, Germany, describes her family; moving to Dinxperlo, a village located close to the German border in the Netherlands in 1933; the German invasion of the Netherlands on May 10, 1940; Jews no longer being allowed to own businesses or to attend schools; going into hiding when they heard that the Jews would be rounded up for deportation in 1943; living with her mother in a barn attic that was barely big enough for them to both lie flat; beginning to write a cookbook-diary in 1944 to pass her time; becoming extremely ill because of a lack of ventilation in her living quarters; recovering from her illness but remaining weak; having to leave her hiding place toward the end of the war because of increased Nazi raids; her liberation on April 1, 1945 by Canadian troops; returning to their former village with food and money supplied to them by the farmers who had hidden them; returning to school as her family tried to re-build their lives; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Hessy Levinsons Taft

    Oral history interview with Hessy Levinsons Taft

    Oral History

    Hessy Levinsons Taft, born on May 17, 1934 in Berlin, Germany, describes her family and childhood; her parents having her photo taken in 1934 and the photo ending up in a Nazi magazine labeled as a beautiful Berliner baby; her family’s decision to run away to Paris, France, where they were when it fell to the Germans; moving to the French coast near Bordeaux with her mother and sister while her father remained in Paris trying to find a way for the family to leave; her father securing visas for the family to travel to Cuba, where she and her sister began to attend a British school; immigrating to the United States in 1948 and settling in New York, NY; and eventually getting married and starting a family.

    Oral history interview with Bella Jakubowicz Tovey

    Oral history interview with Bella Jakubowicz Tovey

    Oral History

    Bella Jakubowicz Tovey, born on September 18, 1926, in Sosnowiec, Poland, describes growing up in a Jewish family; the German invasion of Poland in 1939 and losing her father’s factory and their family furniture; being forced to move into the Sosnowiec ghetto and to work in a factory there in 1941; her family’s deportation to the Bedzin ghetto in 1942; her deportation to the Graeben sub-camp of Gross-Rosen in Germany in 1943 and then to Bergen-Belsen in 1944; her liberation in April 1945; and immigrating to the United States in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Ruth Krautwirth Meyerowitz

    Oral history interview with Ruth Krautwirth Meyerowitz

    Oral History

    Ruth Krautwirth Meyerowitz, born June 23, 1929 in Frankfurt, Germany, describes her childhood; facing intensifying antisemitic measures that resulted in the loss of her father's business and the closing of her school in the late 1930s; her family’s deportation in 1943 to Auschwitz, where her father was killed; her selection for forced labor and being assigned to work on road repairs; working in the "Kanada" unit sorting possessions brought into the camp; her transfer to the Ravensbrück concentration camp in Germany in November 1944; being sent to Malchow, where she worked in a munitions factory making bullets; her liberation by American soldiers in May 1945 during a death march from the Malchow camp in Germany; traveling to Frankfurt with her mother in August 1945 with hopes of finding the rest of their family; and immigrating with her mother to the United States in early 1947.

    Oral history interview with Peretz Milbauer

    Oral history interview with Peretz Milbauer

    Oral History

    Peretz Milbauer, born in Brooklyn, New York in October 1915, discusses his life up to World War II; teaching history before he was drafted into the United States Army; being sent overseas in July 1944 and arriving to his station in Remse, Germany on December 5, 1944; liberating prisoners from a death march in Wałbrzych, Poland in December 1944; gathering a list of names of survivors from the death march and sending the list to American newspapers and magazines in an effort to help survivors contact their relatives; and also liberating prisoners at Ebensee, a sub-camp of Mauthausen in Austria, in May 1945.

    Oral history interview with Judah Nadich

    Oral history interview with Judah Nadich

    Oral History

    Judah Nadich, born in 1912 in Baltimore, Maryland, describes his life until World War II and training to be a rabbi; enlisting in the army as a chaplain after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor; serving as the senior Jewish chaplain with the United States Army in the United Kingdom and then in France during the war; having his first contact with survivors of Nazi oppression in France; helping Parisian Jews re-build their community; being ordered to Frankfurt, Germany as the Jewish affairs adviser to General Dwight D. Eisenhower and reporting on conditions in displaced persons camps; and returning to the United States in late 1945.

    Oral history interview with Hana Bruml

    Oral history interview with Hana Bruml

    Oral History

    Hana Bruml, born on May 30, 1922 in Prague, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic), describes her family and childhood; attending a Zionist elementary school; meeting Rudolph Schiff and marrying him on November 14, 1939; the German invasion of Prague and her father losing his business, receiving ration tickets marked with a “J,” and only being allowed to do certain things at specific times; the deportation of her parents in July 1942 to Theresienstadt followed three weeks later by her and her husband’s deportation to the camp; working in the camp hospital as a nurse; the death of her husband and the development of a romance with Bruno, who worked as an internist in the camp; the special treatment of Danish Jews and a few prominent Austrian and German Jews in Theresienstadt; seeing doctors perform several abortions in the camp to save women; her transport to Auschwitz-Birkenau in October 1944 and seeing Dr. Mengele; and remaining in Auschwitz until May 5, 1945, when she was liberated.

    Oral history interview with Benjamin Meed

    Oral history interview with Benjamin Meed

    Oral History

    Benjamin Meed, born on February 19, 1922 in Warsaw, Poland, describes his family; traveling with a friend in 1939 to Russian territory to escape Nazi persecution; returning to Warsaw because they could not support themselves; joining an underground movement that provided a library and schooling for children; smuggling people to the Aryan side of Warsaw when the ghetto was established; helping his family escape to Praga Południe, Poland, where they hid in a cemetery; beginning to work with a woman named Vladka who was also involved in underground activities; posing as a Christian with Vladka during the war in order to facilitate their work in the underground; moving his hiding place to a bunker which he had built after the Warsaw uprising; jumping onto a Red Cross truck after his liberation to escape persecution by Germans and Poles after the war; reuniting with his parents after the war; and marrying Vladka in Warsaw ten days after liberation.

    Oral history interview with Johanna Neumann

    Oral history interview with Johanna Neumann

    Oral History

    Johanna Neumann, born on December 12, 1930 in Hamburg, Germany, describes her early childhood; her memories of Kristallnacht on November 10, 1938; her family’s decision to leave Germany as anti-Jewish measures intensified; obtaining visas for Albania and leaving Germany without many of her possessions; crossing into Italy and setting sail for Albania on March 1, 1939; remaining in Albania during the Italian and German occupations for a total of six and a half years; finally being liberated after a battle between the Germans and the Albanian partisans in December 1944; spending some time in an Italian displaced persons camp at the port of Tricase in the Lecce province of Apulia in southern Italy; immigrating to the United States in September 1946; and living briefly in Israel for three years from 1969 until 1971.

    Oral history interview with Alice Lang Rosen

    Oral history interview with Alice Lang Rosen

    Oral History

    Alice Lang Rosen, born in 1934 in Lambsheim, Germany, describes her early childhood; the deportation of her family to the Gurs camp in France and then to Rivesaltes when she was six years old; the French Red Cross taking her out of the camp and hiding her from the Germans by placing her in a children's home, then in a convent, and then with various Catholic families; being sent to a children's home near Paris after her liberation; having her name put on a list of Jewish children from all over France, which was being compiled by a Polish rabbi; her father tracing her from this list and reuniting with her in Germany in 1946; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Jay Ipson

    Oral history interview with Jay Ipson

    Oral History

    Jay Ipson, born June 5, 1935, in Slobodka (Vilijampolė), Lithuania, describes growing up in religious, well-off family; his father's attempts to move his family to Russia but being turned back at the border; losing their home in the move and moving in with his grandmother, whose house was in the Kaunas ghetto; witnessing the deportations from the ghetto; escaping the ghetto with his mother and father in November 1943; hiding in a farmer's hay wagon and then in one room under the care of a poor, religious Polish Catholic family; his father's construction of a hiding place under the Polish family's potato patch; hiding with all of his extended family in the underground bunker; being liberated by the Russian army; moving back to Kaunas with his parents; attending Jewish school; being forced to run away from Kaunas after his father was declared an enemy of the Soviet Republic; changing his last name to Butremovitch and getting false papers; hiding with a Jewish family in White Russia; leaving Warsaw, Poland and traveling to Germany; receiving help from a German man to cross the border to the American occupied-zone of Germany; living with a German family in Prinz Regenten Strasse in Munich for nine months; immigrating to the United States to live with his aunt in Richmond, VA in June 1947; and joining the US military during the Korean War and becoming a colonel in command of an aviation unit.

    Oral history interview with Margaret Jastrow Klug

    Oral history interview with Margaret Jastrow Klug

    Oral History

    Margaret Jastrow Klug, born on June 8, 1923 in Rogoźno, Poland, describes her family and childhood; her brother’s immigration to Scotland before the war; the beginning of the war and being arrested because someone had given them her name; jumping from a window of the jail to avoid deportation to Auschwitz but instead being injured and staying in a hospital for two months; being deported to Auschwitz, where she worked in a factory; getting married and having a daughter after the war; immigrating to Israel in 1949; returning to Germany soon after because the climate in Israel was too uncomfortable for her; and immigrating to the United States in the mid-1950s and settling in Atlanta, Georgia.

    Oral history interview with Solomon Klug

    Oral history interview with Solomon Klug

    Oral History

    Solomon Klug, born on July 9, 1923 in Krzepice, Poland, describes growing up in a religious family with one sister and three brothers; seeing his mother and brother shot in his backyard; his deportation in 1940 to Annaberg, Germany, where he worked building the Autobahn; being transferred in 1943 to Markstadt, Germany, where he built bridges, and then to Fuenfteichen, a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen, in March 23, 1944 to work in an ammunitions factory; his transport to Wolfsberg, another sub-camp of Gross-Rosen; being sent to Politz, Czechoslovakia, Bergen-Belsen, and finally to Barth-an-der-Ostee, a sub-camp of Ravensbrück; going on a three-day death march after his evacuation from Barth-an-der-Ostee; his liberation on April 30, 1945; going to Berlin, Germany after liberation and meeting his wife Margaret; immigrating to Israel, where they lived for four years, and then returning to Nuremberg to spend a year in a displaced persons camp; and immigrating to the United States in 1955 and settling in Atlanta, Georgia.

    Oral history interview with Helene Baraf

    Oral history interview with Helene Baraf

    Oral History

    Helene Baraf, born July 24, 1927 in Antwerp, Belgium, discusses her family and her childhood in Antwerp before World War II; her family's move to the United States in 1937; her return to Belgium with her mother and brother in 1940; traveling to France with her family by train and on foot after the Germans entered Belgium; her family's life in Lille, France; her brother's arrest by the Gestapo and eventual deportation to Auschwitz-Birkenau for failing to properly display his Star of David on his coat; her and her mother's arrest by the Gestapo and their escape during a round up; their rescue from a small hiding place by the members of the underground resistance; her time spent hiding in a convent with other Jewish children in Lille; her attempts to conceal her identity with an assumed name and falsified identification documents; her move from the convent to a "Protestant community" in Roubaix, France, where she attended high school and remained with her mother until after World War II; her friendship with a girl from Roubaix whose family sheltered her and her mother for period of time during the war; the divorce of her parents shortly after the war; and her life in the United States after 1969.

    Oral history interview with Morris Kornberg

    Oral history interview with Morris Kornberg

    Oral History

    Morris Kornberg, born in Przedbórz, Poland on January 6, 1918, describes growing up as the youngest of seven children in a strict Orthodox family; the 1939 German invasion and being forced to work in a factory in the ghetto; his imprisonment in Końskie, a prison in Poland, and then in Radom, Poland and Jawischowitz, a sub-camp of Auschwitz; working in a coal mine and receiving special treatment by SS men because of his memory for numbers; his transfer to Troeglitz, a sub-camp of Buchenwald, in January 1945; the evacuation of Troeglitz on April 9, 1945 and escaping on a train with two others; getting caught and forced on a death march to Leitmeritz, a sub-camp of Flossenbürg, and then to Theresienstadt, where he was liberated; staying in a sanitarium outside of Stuttgart, where he met his wife; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Michael Diamond

    Oral history interview with Michael Diamond

    Oral History

    Michael Diamond, born on July 10, 1919 in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), describes his family; his draft into the Czech Army in 1939 but being forced to work in army camps clearing snow off roads and highways when the Slovak State was created; his transfer to Liptovský Mikuláš, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), where he repaired weapons and became a Slovak-German language interpreter; being moved to Vrútky, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), where he had to clean old uniforms; working as an electrician in eastern Slovakia; escaping into hiding in the forest but soon getting captured by the Gestapo; his transport to Sered, a "Sommerlager" in Slovakia; attempting to escape from a transport train and then being sent to Sachsenhausen, Heinkelwerke, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, Neuengamme, and Mauthausen; working as an engineer and repairing railroad engines; ending up in Wurttemberg, Germany, where he was marched deeper into Germany as the Allied forces approached; and hiding in a peasant's empty house in Germany until he was liberated by Soviet soldiers.

    Oral history interview with Abraham Malach

    Oral history interview with Abraham Malach

    Oral History

    Abraham Malach, born on May 12, 1935 in Zwoleń, Poland, describes his family; entering the ghetto in Radom, Poland in 1940 and remaining there until 1942; spending 1942 through 1943 at work camps in Poland, where he worked as a messenger boy; his deportation to Auschwitz in 1944; being removed from the group headed to the gas chambers at his first selection by a female Kapo, who molested him and bribed him to keep silent by giving him food for his family; running away to a monastery when Auschwitz was liberated; eventually being taken by nuns to a United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency camp; reuniting with his parents in 1946 in Krakow, Poland; his parents sending him to Israel to finish his high school education; and immigrating to New York, NY after high school when he was admitted to Columbia University.

    Oral history interview with Michael Bernath

    Oral history interview with Michael Bernath

    Oral History

    Michael Bernath, born on February 14, 1923 in Szikszó, Hungary, describes growing up in a family with eleven older siblings; working in Budapest, Hungary as a furrier in 1943 and always getting harassed; joining the underground movement in Budapest and working for American and British intelligence services; the German invasion of Hungary in March 1944 and Hungarian gendarmes rounding up five thousand Jewish people from his town and transporting them to Kassa, Czechoslovakia; being forced into a slave labor camp with about 35,000 other men; his deportation to the Schachendorf concentration camp in Austria in the winter of 1944 and being forced to dig trenches and train tracks in the Austrian Alps; Russian forces liberating him and returning to Budapest to live with his aunt and uncle; and his immigration to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Kate Bernath

    Oral history interview with Kate Bernath

    Oral History

    Kate Bernath, born in August 27, 1927 in Szikszó, Hungary, describes her family and childhood; living a decent life until March 1944 when the Germans occupied Hungary; dating a man to keep herself amused before the occupation; being rounded up and sent to a ghetto in Kassa (Košice, Slovakia); her deportation to Auschwitz in May 1944; her transfer to a factory in Augsburg, Germany to work in a Messerschmitt factory; hearing Allied bombings every night toward the end of the war; her transfer to Mühldorf, where she had to clean up debris from bombings; the guards disappearing one day and escaping to a farmhouse, where they were caught by an SS soldier; her liberation on May 1, 1946 and going to the Feldafing displaced persons camp; returning to Amsterdam and reuniting with her pre-war boyfriend; and getting married in Leipheim, Germany and then immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Paul Kovak

    Oral history interview with Paul Kovak

    Oral History

    Paul Kovak, born on December 6, 1938 in Trenčín, Slovakia, describes being born a Jew but converting to Roman Catholicism with his parents; his father’s work as a professor at a small agricultural college; not having to wear the yellow star because of his father’s indispensable position at the school; going into hiding in the second home of a farming family in the mountains in late August 1944 at the time of the Slovak National Uprising; staying in hiding until April 1945, when they were liberated by Russian and Romanian troops; living in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia until 1981; and immigrating to the United States in 1981.

    Oral history interview with Abraham Kolski

    Oral history interview with Abraham Kolski

    Oral History

    Abraham Kolski, born in 1917 in Izbica Lubelska, Poland, describes his family; the German occupation of Poland and going into the Czestochowa ghetto, where he did forced labor at a metal factory; his deportation on October 2, 1942 to Treblinka, Poland, where he performed forced labor searching for valuables in the clothing of gas chamber victims; participating in the Treblinka uprising on August 2, 1943 and escaping the concentration camp with nine other friends; hiding in a cellar of a home near Treblinka for the remainder of the war; eventually being liberated by the Russian Army; remaining in Poland until 1948, when he married and left for France; immigrating to the United States in 1954; and testifying as a witness to the events at Treblinka in the war crimes trials at Düsseldorf.

    Oral history interview with Sylvia Kolski

    Oral history interview with Sylvia Kolski

    Oral History

    Sylvia Kolski, born on September 15, 1925 in Tarczyn, Poland, describes her family and childhood; moving with her aunt, uncle, cousins, and parents into the Warsaw ghetto; working for a tailor in the ghetto; hearing rumors that the Jews would be killed on July 22, 1942; hiding money in her clothing, so she could bribe people to save herself; seeing several major deportations from the ghetto; escaping from the ghetto and staying with a family in the countryside; her liberation on January 16, 1945 and returning to Tarczyn; moving to Łódź, Poland, where she met her husband, and then to Paris, France in 1947; and immigrating to the United States when the Vietnam War began.

    Oral history interview with Steven Springfield

    Oral history interview with Steven Springfield

    Oral History

    Steven Springfield, born in 1923 in Riga, Latvia, describes his experiences as a child; the German occupation of Riga in 1941 and having to go into the ghetto; the massacre of about 28,000 Jews from the ghetto in late 1941 at the Rumbula forest; being transferred with his brother to a small ghetto for able-bodied men; his deportation to a labor camp near Kaiserwald in 1943; being moved to Stutthof in 1944 and forced to work in a shipbuilding firm; surviving a death march in 1945 with his brother and being liberated by Soviet forces; accepting a position as an interpreter for the Russian Army; his incarceration by the Russians for allegedly supporting the Nazis but being released when the charges were disproven; locating his pre-war girlfriend and marrying her; moving to Berlin, Germany with his wife and brother; and applying for a visa and immigrating to the United States on March 10, 1947.

    Oral history interview with Liny Pajgin Yollick

    Oral history interview with Liny Pajgin Yollick

    Oral History

    Liny Pajgin Yollick, born in 1924 in Hague, Netherlands, describes growing up in a wealthy family; the German occupation of the Netherlands in May 1940; her mother’s plans to escape after her father died; spending six months with her mother and sister trying to escape through southern France by pretending to be Protestant, obtaining visas to travel through Spain and Portugal, and going on one of the last trains to cross into Spain after the Germans took over southern France; boarding a Portuguese ship bound for Dutch Guiana and being placed into a refugee camp; the exiled Dutch government’s arrangement for her to finish her education; and immigrating to the United States, where she worked for some time in the Dutch embassy in Washington, DC before settling in Texas.

    Oral history interview with Fred Bachner

    Oral history interview with Fred Bachner

    Oral History

    Fred Bachner was born on September 28, 1925 in Berlin, Germany and describes his family; his brother’s and father’s deportation to the Polish border after Kristallnacht; moving to Poland in 1939 to join the rest of his family; his brother being taken to a work camp in Poland in 1940; his deportation to Markstädt, a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen, and then to Groeditz and Faulbrueck before he was sent to Auschwitz; loading and unloading coal and cement for I.G. Farben, a German industrial company; going on a death march out of Auschwitz to a camp near Dachau, where he found his brother; being placed on another train that was ambushed by British fighter planes; jumping off the train with his brother and hiding in the surrounding area until they located the American soldiers; staying at the Feldafing displaced persons camp after the war; reuniting with his father and immigrating to the United States with his father and brother on January 3, 1947; and being drafted into the United States Army during the Korean War.

    Oral history interview with Murray Pantirer

    Oral history interview with Murray Pantirer

    Oral History

    Murray Pantirer was born on June 15, 1925 in Kraków, Poland and discusses his childhood; the German occupation of Kraków in 1939; separating from his family on several occasions in an attempt to find food and other necessities; finally being confined to the Kraków ghetto; his and his brother’s deportation to Płaszów, Poland to do forced labor; his transport to Auschwitz in May 1944, then to Gross-Rosen, and finally to Brünnlitz, a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen, to work for German industrialist Oskar Schindler; his liberation on May 10, 1945 and discovering that he was only one of nine family members to survive; returning to Poland after liberation but deciding to leave because of the lingering presence of antisemitism; moving to a displaced persons camp in Linz, Austria, where he met and married his wife; arranging to immigrate to America through the American consul in Salzburg, Austria; and immigrating to the United States on the S.S. Marine Fletcher in January 1949.

    Oral history interview with Barbara Marton Farkas

    Oral history interview with Barbara Marton Farkas

    Oral History

    Barbara Marton Farkas, born on May 4, 1920 in Beliu, Romania, describes her family and childhood; living in Beliu until 1937, when her family sold their house and store and moved to Oradea, Romania; being refused entrance into the university in 1940 because of the anti-Jewish laws implemented by the Hungarian government, which then controlled the northern Transylvania area; training in a hospital laboratory and working there until the German invasion of Hungary in March 1944; leaving the hospital, which was occupied by the SS, and starting work at a photo company; first wearing the Star of David on April 1, 1944 and going into the Oradea ghetto in May 1944; her family’s deportation to Auschwitz, where she lost her parents; her transfer to Weisswasser, a sub-camp of Gross-Rosen in Germany, where she worked in a chemistry lab and then in the Cathode Workshop; staying there from October 1944 through February 1945; her transport through several camps after March 1945 to avoid the approaching Soviet army; ending up on the German-Danish border at Padberg, Germany; the Red Cross assisting the survivors with food and shelter; being taken to Malmö, Sweden the next day and then spending some time in a hospital in Landskrona, Sweden; returning to Romania to study in Cluj from 1946 to 1951; graduating as an industrial pharmacist; immigrating to Israel in 1961; and immigrating to the United States in 1968.

    Oral history interview with William Farkas

    Oral history interview with William Farkas

    Oral History

    William Farkas, born in 1916 in Arad, Romania, describes growing up as an only child in a middle class family; attending the Arad Jewish school and studying business administration after high school; joining the Romanian Army after school; not experiencing antisemitism until 1940 when he was expelled from the army because he was Jewish; the Iron Guard coming to power in September 1940; being ordered to report for deportation to labor camps in July 1941 and going to a work camp in Sighişoara, Romania, where he worked as a miner demolishing mountains for a new railway line; being sent home until 1942, when he was transported to Valea Homorod, Romania and then to Kinapist, Romania to do railway work; claiming he was an electrician in 1943 and going to a camp with three friends in Timişoara, Romania, where they worked as auto mechanics in a military garage for one year; his transport in 1944 to Doaga, a labor camp in Romania, where inmates built cement fortresses; hearing that Soviet soldiers were approaching Doaga and being liberated on August 25, 1944; returning home via Bucharest and reuniting with his parents in Arad; finding a wife and immigrating to Israel with her in 1954; and immigrating to the United States in 1961.

    Oral history interview with Sheila Perec Etons Bernard

    Oral history interview with Sheila Perec Etons Bernard

    Oral History

    Sheila Etons Bernard (née Sala Perec), born on February 18, 1936 in Chełm, Poland, describes her family and early childhood; her father’s deportation to a labor camp after the war began and never seeing him again; hiding in the shack of a Polish policeman for almost two years with her mother; her mother dying because of a blood clot in her leg; going to a children’s home in Germany for two years; immigrating to Palestine to live with one of her uncles; joining the military, where she met her husband; immigrating to the United States in 1963 because her husband had family in the US; and her thoughts on how the war has affected her life.

    Oral history interview with Frima L.

    Oral history interview with Frima L.

    Oral History

    Frima, born in 1936 in Volochys'k, Russia (now Ukraine), describes her family; trying to escape to White Russia with her family after the Nazi invasion but being forced back to live with some distant cousins; her father’s capture by the Germans to serve as an interpreter for them; her sister and mother being forced to work at labor camps during the days; entering the Volochys'k ghetto; getting caught by Germans and claiming that they were not Jewish, which resulted in them going to jail; escaping with her mother and sister to hide in the attic of a barn, where they were almost discovered but managed to escape; the intensifying pogroms against the Jews by Russian and Ukrainian collaborators; pretending to be Christian and going into hiding with an old family friend; eventually reuniting with her mother with the help of several generous Gentiles and staying with her until the end of the war; going into displaced persons camps in Bavaria; going to school in Germany for two and a half years and then moving to France; immigrating to the United States in the 1950s and meeting her husband there; and her considerations on how the war has affected her life.

    Oral history interview with Esther Terner Raab

    Oral history interview with Esther Terner Raab

    Oral History

    Esther Terner Raab, born on June 11, 1922 in Chelm, Poland, describes growing up as one of two children; the Soviet occupation of her town in 1939; the German invasion of Chelm in 1941 and her family being forced into a ghetto; moving to Siedliszcze, Poland and eventually moving into the ghetto in Siedliszcze; her transport to the labor camp at Staw Noakowski, Poland for a short time before she and her brother were sent to Sobibór in December 1942; arriving at Sobibór three days before Christmas in 1942 and being forced to work in a knitting factory in the camp, knitting woolen socks; witnessing the gassing of Jews at Camp III of the Sobibór compound; participating in the camp uprising of October 14, 1943 but getting wounded during the escape; fleeing to the countryside and getting sheltered by a former customer of her father; reuniting with her brother, who had escaped during a previous transfer; remaining hidden until 1944, when the region in which she hid was freed by the Soviet Red Army; following the Red Army to Berlin, Germany and settling there for a short time after the war; marrying a man in Berlin and then immigrating to the United States shortly after the end of the war; and serving as a witness at the trials of Nazi criminals in the 1965-66 trials in Hagen, Germany.

    Oral history interview with Guy Stern

    Oral history interview with Guy Stern

    Oral History

    Guy Stern, born on January 14, 1922 in Hildesheim, Germany, describes growing up in a Jewish family; attending a German school, where he had many non-Jewish friends; losing several of his friends after 1933 when they joined the Hitler Youth; his family’s decision to move to the United States after they began to experience increased levels of antisemitism; leaving Germany with a group of children in November 1937 and arriving in New York, NY; moving to St. Louis, Missouri to live with distant relatives; graduating high school in June 1939 and trying to help his family immigrate to the United States; discovering that his parents had perished in the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland; attempting to enlist in the US Army in 1941 but being turned away because of his German heritage; receiving a draft notice in 1942 and being trained in military intelligence because of his familiarity with the German language; training at Camp Ritchie in Maryland; working as an interrogator and uncovering the deeds of several war criminals; going to Buchenwald the day after it was liberated and seeing the horrible conditions there; returning to the United States after the war, attending Hofstra College, and then earning his Ph.D. from Columbia University in German Literature and Culture; and helping other survivors write about their Holocaust experiences.

    Oral history interview with Toby Stern

    Oral history interview with Toby Stern

    Oral History

    Toby Stern, born on July 15, 1920 in Vișeu de Mijloc, Romania, describes growing up as the youngest of six children; marrying when she was seventeen or eighteen; going into hiding with her family shortly after the war began; having one child and miscarrying another while in hiding; her deportation to Auschwitz with her mother and her three-year-old son; giving her child to her mother to carry, since both were guaranteed to be killed, which allowed her to survive; having to do forced labor making uniforms in the camp's tailor shop; going on a death march in early 1945 from Auschwitz to Ravensbrück and then to Malchow, where Russian forces liberated her; going to the New Bromberg displaced persons camp and then returning to Vișeu de Mijloc in search of her husband and family; finding all of her brothers but not her husband, who was rumored to have died in Russia; immigrating to Germany after the war and remarrying while there; and immigrating to the United States in 1950.

    Oral history interview with Ion Butnaru

    Oral history interview with Ion Butnaru

    Oral History

    Ion Butnaru, born in 1918 in Huși, Moldavia (Romania), describes his family; working for a small newspaper before the war until he was drafted into the Romanian Army in November, 1939; being transferred to the military zone in northern Moldavia in the spring of 1940; his expulsion from the army in August 1940 because he was Jewish; being ordered to return to his regiment to work with the battalions in the Carpathian Mountains on September 1, 1940; being sent back to Huși to clean streets in the summer of 1941; his deportation to a concentration camp in Tîrgu Jiu, Romania, where he remained for four months; returning to Huși, where he was placed in a local camp in the courtyard of the Jewish community and had to wear yellow badges; witnessing the Iron Guard Rebellion in January 1941, during which many Jews were killed; his father being falsely accused of being a communist and getting badly beaten; being forced to clear the streets of snow until the summer of 1942, when he was sent to Bolgrad, Ukraine and then to several other villages in Bessarabia in a forced labor battalion; getting moved to another camp near Bîrlad, Romania in 1943; the Romanian Army surrendering to Soviet forces in August 1944; and immigrating to the United States in 1976.

    Oral history interview with Jeanine Gutman Butnaru

    Oral history interview with Jeanine Gutman Butnaru

    Oral History

    Jeanine Gutman Butnaru, born on June 25, 1925 in Bacău, Romania, describes her childhood and family; moving to Bucharest, Romania in 1938; her involvement in the underground resistance movement in Bucharest; working as a volunteer in Jewish hospitals; witnessing the Iron Guard Rebellion of January 21-23, 1941, when Legionaries killed Jews and burned downed their houses and stores; the 1944 American bombing of the railroads that cut the Germans off from Ploiești, Romania, which was rich with oil; hiding in her family’s cellar during the heavy bombardments because Ploiești was near Bucharest; Soviet troops entering Romania at the end of the war; meeting her husband in the Writer's Union; and immigrating to the United States in 1976.

    Oral history interview with Cecilie Klein-Pollack

    Oral history interview with Cecilie Klein-Pollack

    Oral History

    Cecilie Klein-Pollack, born on April 13, 1925 in Yasinya, Ukraine, describes growing up as the youngest of six children in a Jewish family; the death of her father when she was nine years old; her expulsion from high school after the Hungarians annexed Ruthenia; being threatened with deportation and subsequently going into hiding in Budapest, Hungary after her mother and sister were briefly imprisoned there; fleeing to Horinc, Ukraine, where they stayed for a year until her brother was taken for forced labor; moving with her mother to Nyíregyháza, Hungary, where arrangements had been made for her to apprentice in a dental laboratory; traveling to Budapest when she heard that her oldest sister had been arrested and finding out that she had been sent to a labor camp in Bačka Topola, Yugoslavia; traveling to Bačka Topola to arrange for her sister’s release and then returning to Budapest, where she became engaged to her future husband Joe Klein; the German invasion of Budapest in March 1944 and joining up with her and Joe’s families in Chust, Ukraine; being forced into a ghetto and then transported to Auschwitz; arriving in Auschwitz and being sent to Birkenau with her sister; being sheltered by the Blockältester who liked her because she was a talented poet; her and her sister’s transport to Nuremberg and Holleischen; their liberation from Holleischen by Russian troops and returning to Czechoslovakia, where she reunited with her fiancé and married him in Budapest on August 21, 1945; and immigrating to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Fred Schwartz

    Oral history interview with Fred Schwartz

    Oral History

    Fred Schwartz, born on October 30, 1928 in Kotaj, Hungary, describes his childhood; his father’s deportation to a labor camp in 1940; taking over his father’s job delivering seltzer water with his brother; knowing very little of what was happening in Europe from 1940 to 1944; the German invasion of Hungary; the organization of Jews into their town synagogues as the Germans prepared them for deportation; his deportation to Birkenau with his father, mother, and brother; discovering later after the war that his mother had died in Bergen-Belsen; his transfer to a work camp in Wolfsberg where he had to dig tunnels through mountains; being forced on a death march as the Russian forces neared; arriving in Mauthausen where he was liberated by American forces; staying a displaced persons camp for two years until he relocated to Paris, France; waiting to receive an American visa; going to the United States without legal papers and almost being sent back; and reconciling with his past.

    Oral history interview with Abraham Malnik

    Oral history interview with Abraham Malnik

    Oral History

    Abraham Malnik, born on January 31, 1927 in Kaunas, Lithuania, describes his childhood and family; the Russian invasion of Lithuania in 1940 and losing most of his family’s belongings; the brutal treatment of Jews by Lithuanians; the establishment of a ghetto in Kaunas that held about thirty thousand people; the Lithuanians beheading the local rabbis; being saved during a selection because his father knew the chief of police; his father’s work in the ghetto fire department; being forced to do several jobs like make toys for German children and clean dirty clothes from the front; the Germans and Lithuanians intensifying their battle against the Jews after the loss of the battle at Stalingrad; being on the last transport from the ghetto to Dachau, where he had to help build a factory for Messerschmitt and pick up dead bodies; his transfers with his father to Flossenbürg and then another camp; getting a German officer in trouble because he attempted to sexually abuse him; his transfer to Theresienstadt, where he was liberated by Russian troops on May 8, 1945; immigrating to the United States without knowing anyone or speaking English; and settling in Washington, DC with his wife, who was a Belgian Holocaust survivor.

    Oral history interview with Lilly Appelbaum Malnik

    Oral history interview with Lilly Appelbaum Malnik

    Oral History

    Lilly Appelbaum Malnik, born in Belgium in 1928, describes her family and childhood; her father's move to the United States; waking up one morning in 1940 and discovering that the Germans had invaded; her sister who was taken into hiding by a farmer who later turned her in to the Germans because she would not have sexual relations with him; living with her aunt in the countryside after having her tonsils out; returning to find that her mother and brother had been deported; hiding her Jewish identity and doing odd jobs for the Germans; going into hiding with a Belgian girl with whom she had worked; being caught and deported on the second-to-last transport before the liberation of Belgium; arriving in Birkenau and receiving her identification number and work assignment to the kitchens in Auschwitz; a death march to Bergen-Belsen; the arrival of Allied soldiers at Bergen-Belsen; being taken away by the Red Cross to recover from typhus and physical injuries; returning to Belgium and reuniting with her aunt; and immigrating to United States to be with her father.

    Oral history interview with Masha Loen

    Oral history interview with Masha Loen

    Oral History

    Masha Loen, born in July 1930 in Kaunas, Lithuania, describes growing up in a religious family with three sisters; her father hiding her family and other Kaunas Jews under the wooden floor planks in his home; being separated from her family in 1941 and taken to the Stutthof concentration camp in Poland; performing forced labor in Stutthof until 1945, when she was taken on a death march as Russian troops approached the camp; making it to a Russian hospital after the German soldiers abandoned the death march; traveling to Łódź, where she found her father who had been liberated from Dachau; taking a transport to Austria; and immigrating to New Orleans, LA in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Madeline Deutsch

    Oral history interview with Madeline Deutsch

    Oral History

    Madeline Deutsch, born on April 29, 1930 in Berehove, Czechoslovakia (now in Ukraine), describes her childhood; Hungary taking over her town on November 9, 1938; living under the Hungarians until March 1944 when the Germans invaded; living in a ghetto for two weeks until her transport to Auschwitz, where she and her mother stayed in for one week; being moved near Wrocław, Poland to work at an ammunition factory; her and her mother’s liberation by Russian soldiers on May 8, 1945; discovering that both her father and brother had died; staying with her mother in a displaced persons camp for four years until March 9, 1949 when the two immigrated to the United States; and marrying and having two sons in America.

    Oral history interview with Amalie Petranker Salsitz

    Oral history interview with Amalie Petranker Salsitz

    Oral History

    Amalie Petranker Salsitz, born in 1922 in Munich, Germany, describes growing up in a Zionist family; moving to Stanislav, Poland (now Ivano-Frankivs'k, Ukraine) when she was a young child; the Russian occupation of Poland in 1939 and the loss of her father’s business; seeing her sister move to Palestine with her new husband; her family’s arrest by the Gestapo in October 1941; moving into the ghetto until her father was deported in 1942; escaping to Kraków, Poland, where she passed as Aryan; working as a chambermaid and finally obtaining employment at a construction firm in Kraków, where she remained until January 1945; traveling to Munich and Palestine after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Norman Salsitz

    Oral history interview with Norman Salsitz

    Oral History

    Norman Salsitz, born in 1920 in Kolbuszowa, Poland, describes growing up in a Zionist Hasidic family; making a failed attempt to immigrate to Palestine in 1938; unsuccessfully trying to join the Polish Army in September 1939; the occupation and destruction of his town; escaping to Russian-occupied Poland for a short period until he returned to Kolbuszowa; going into the Lipie labor camp in 1940; running away from the camp; working for the Germans, building garages for the Wehrmacht; his deportation to the Pustków concentration camp in late 1940; being beaten; escaping from Pustków and moving to the Czechowice ghetto; escaping from the ghetto in November 1942 and helping to establish a partisan unit in the forest near Kolbuszowa; obtaining false documentation with which he joined the Armia Krajowa; fleeing to Germany after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Frederic Bernard

    Oral history interview with Frederic Bernard

    Oral History

    Frederic Bernard, born on August 7, 1912 in Chernivtsi, Romania (Chernivtsi, Ukraine), describes his family; studying medicine at Karls University in Prague, Czechoslovakia; attempting to enter Hungary in 1941 but being turned away by the Hungarian gendarmerie and placed in a ghetto in Oleyëvo-Korolëvka, Ukraine with over 1,500 Jewish people; hiding during an Aktion in 1942 that exterminated most of the ghetto and then later escaping with his wife Gusti; finding a hiding place with a Polish man in a barn in the woods; the Polish man encouraging him to join a Polish resistance group; finding a new hiding place with Gusti in 1943 and joining a Russian resistance group; becoming a courier for the resistance because of his Romanian language ability; joining the Polish Army, where he practiced as a doctor; and immigrating to the United States in 1950.

    Oral history interview with Isaac Bitton

    Oral history interview with Isaac Bitton

    Oral History

    Isaac Bitton, born on March 31, 1926 in Lisbon, Portugal, describes his family and childhood; the small Lisbon Jewish community in which he grew up that hosted thousands of Jewish refugees before and during the war; his family’s work running a soup kitchen to help the Jewish refugees; immigrating to Palestine with his brother aboard the ship Nisassa; being forced into an internment camp when he arrived in Haifa; joining the Palestine Police Railroad Division and then the Jewish Brigade; spending some time in Antwerp, Belgium for the Jewish Brigade but soon returning to Palestine to work for the British military; participating in a movement to encourage the illegal entry of European refugees into Palestine; working with the underground forces of the Haganah, a movement dedicated to preparing for Israeli independence; and his immigration to the United States in 1959.

    Oral history interview with Max Haber

    Oral history interview with Max Haber

    Oral History

    Max Haber, born on December 31, 1904 in Essen, Germany, describes his family; attending an Orthodox Jewish school in Germany; moving to Hamburg, Germany and working as a businessman there until 1933, when he moved to Kolomyia, Poland to live with his brother and sister; moving to Katowice, Poland, where he was able to find work; joining the Revisionist party in 1939 and trying to immigrate to Palestine on an illegal transport through Romania; the British Ambassador to Romania telling the Romanians to withdraw his visa since the British were restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine; returning to Kolomyia and staying there until the Soviets invaded in 1939; trying to escape to Romania with his brother-in-law but getting caught and imprisoned; being moved to Kiev, Ukraine in March 1940; receiving a five-year prison sentence and getting transported to Yartsevo, Russia; his transfer to the Mostowits labor camp in Russia, where he was forced to cut trees; his liberation in March 1944 and taking a train to Kotel’nich, Russia with other prisoners; staying with several Russian Jewish families until he found a Ukrainian family who housed him for a short time in exchange for German lessons; traveling to the English zone in Germany; and reuniting with his brother in 1951 in Israel.

    Oral history interview with William P. Levine

    Oral history interview with William P. Levine

    Oral History

    Major General William P. Levine, born in Duluth, Minnesota on July 1, 1915, describes growing up as the oldest of four brothers; his draft into the United States Army in 1942 and completing Officer Training School in 1943; entering the Intelligence Unit as an Artillery Officer in 1944; being sent to England and later traveling with a unit that began in the Netherlands and worked its way south towards Dachau; moving into Dachau on April 29, 1945 and helping to give out food and medical care to the former prisoners at Dachau; and returning to the United States in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Leo Schneiderman

    Oral history interview with Leo Schneiderman

    Oral History

    Leo Schneiderman, born on August 18, 1921 in Łódź, Poland, describes his family and childhood; the large Jewish population that had comfortably developed within Łódź before Hitler came to power; Poland preparing for war by drafting young men into the army and by digging trenches; the German invasion and fall of the Polish Army in September 1939; being tricked by the German government to head towards Warsaw with his younger brother and father; returning to Łódź and being forced into the ghetto with his whole family; the closing of the Łódź ghetto in 1940 and the realization that the community needed to organize its own services and methods of self-support; each of his family members taking a job in the ghetto, including his work as a tailor; illegally teaching Yiddish in the ghetto; not understanding why there had to be deportations from the ghetto without realizing the severity of the camps; his deportation to Auschwitz in August 1944; his transport to Kaltwasser, a labor camp in Silesia, to do construction work for a short period until he was transferred to Lärche and then to Wolfsberg, where he worked in a hospital; being forced onto an open cattle car for a deportation and being thrown food while passing through Stará Paka, Czechoslovakia; his liberation by Allied Forces; and speaking for the prosecution against Herr Krison in a 1978 trial in Bochum, West Germany.

    Oral history interview with Adam Starkopf and Pela Starkopf

    Oral history interview with Adam Starkopf and Pela Starkopf

    Oral History

    Adam Starkopf and Pela Starkopf, both born in 1914 in Warsaw, Poland, describe their childhoods and families; Pela’s decision to study at a Warsaw law school before the war; getting married in 1936 and having a daughter in 1941; entering the Warsaw ghetto in 1940; escaping from the ghetto in 1942 by drugging their daughter, so she seemed to be dead; pretending to go to the Jewish cemetery outside of the ghetto to bury their daughter but never returning; their daughter getting tuberculosis and her six week treatment in a hospital; being helped by non-Jews; hiding on the Aryan side as Catholics; their daughter’s discovery that she was Jewish after the war; immigrating to the United States in 1947 on a United States Navy transport; Adam taking various jobs until he opened sporting goods factory; and getting involved in the Penny Project, which began in 1989.

    Oral history interview with Carla Heijmans Lessing

    Oral history interview with Carla Heijmans Lessing

    Oral History

    Carla Heijmans Lessing, born in 1929 in Rotterdam, Netherlands, describes her family and childhood; the German invasion of the Netherlands in 1940 and experiencing harsh antisemitic measures; going into hiding with her mother and brother in August 1942 with the assistance of a Catholic priest who helped Jews find hiding places; leaving their first hiding place after three months but, with the priest’s help, finding a new shelter in Delft, in which they hid for thirty months; and her liberation in May 1945.

    Oral history interview with Edward Lessing

    Oral history interview with Edward Lessing

    Oral History

    Edward Lessing, born in the Hague, Netherlands on May 8, 1926, describes moving to the United States in 1929; returning to Delft, Netherlands in 1932 because of the economic depression in the US; entering trade school in 1942 to become a tool maker but having to leave because Jews could no longer attend public school after the German invasion; splitting up from his family after the invasion in October 1942 and finding a place to hide with a farmer, who employed him as a farm hand; relocating to hide in a convent in the Hague with his mother; the German raid of the convent in December 1943, during which he escaped, but his mother was taken to Bergen-Belsen; reuniting with his father and brothers in their hiding place in an abandoned cottage; remaining in this cottage through May 1945 when they returned to Delft; his mother’s liberation from Bergen-Belsen in late 1945; and immigrating with his family to the United States in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Werner Goldsmith

    Oral history interview with Werner Goldsmith

    Oral History

    Werner Goldsmith, born in Erfurt, Germany on November 13, 1928, describes his family; the expulsion of Jewish children from German schools in 1938; the death of his father in 1938 and moving with his mother to Berlin, Germany; his mother placing him in the Auerbach Orphanage while she lived with another Jewish woman in West Berlin; his mother arranging for him to be placed in a transport to France while she traveled to England; living in the home of a French count until the invasion of France in 1940; the count being taken prisoner in Germany in 1940 and going into the care of the Oeuvre de Secours aux Enfants; unsuccessfully attempting to flee to southern France and getting separated from the other children when he was placed in the Rothschild orphanage, where he remained for nine months; moving to Marseilles, France in the spring of 1941; receiving an emergency visa in September 1941 to immigrate to the United States because he had relatives there; getting on a transport from Marseilles to Portugal and then embarking on a Portuguese freighter and sailing to the United States; and living in Jewish foster homes until he reunited with his mother in 1946.

    Oral history interview with Beatrice Pappenheimer

    Oral history interview with Beatrice Pappenheimer

    Oral History

    Beatrice Pappenheimer, born in October 1932 in Lauterbach, Germany, describes her family and childhood; her parents having to register with the local police; moving to Karlsruhe, Germany after her father had to give up his business in 1936; starting school in Karlsruhe but experiencing much antisemitism; being forced to leave school in November 1938 because of a law forbidding Jews from public schools; the Gestapo forcing her and her family from their house and onto a train in 1939; arriving in the Gurs camp and contracting dysentery; her transfer to the Rivesaltes camp; her mother placing her on a truck run by the Oeuvre de Secours des Enfants and moving into homes in France; reuniting with her sister, who had gone through terrible times in the camps; the bombing of France that picked up in 1943; receiving letters from her grandmother in Palestine, her aunts in New York City, NY, and her uncle and aunt in London, England; arriving in London to be with her uncle and aunt; immigrating to New York City in October 1947 to live with her aunts and attend high school; and her thoughts on her wartime experiences.

    Oral history interview with John Komski

    Oral history interview with John Komski

    Oral History

    John Komski, born in 1915 in Galicia, Poland, describes growing up in a Gentile family; having some Jewish friends at the Academy of Arts in Kraków, where he graduated from in 1939; leaving Kraków when the Germans invaded but returning to join the resistance; escaping to Czechoslovakia, where he was caught by Slovaks who turned him in to the Gestapo; being rounded up in 1940 with 756 other Poles and deported to Auschwitz, where he worked in the architect's office; helping to create the museum in Auschwitz in 1941, collecting items of interest from the incoming inmates; escaping from Auschwitz to a small village, where he received false documents from the underground and boarded a train to Kraków; getting captured in Kraków and sent to prison; his transport to Auschwitz-Birkenau and then to Buchenwald, where he worked as a kitchen chef; his deportation to Gross-Rosen, where he worked in the labor relations office; being transported to Hersbruck towards the end of the war and then forced on a death march to Dachau, where he was liberated; and his immigration to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Curtis Whiteway

    Oral history interview with Curtis Whiteway

    Oral History

    Curtis Whiteway, born in Newburyport, MA on November 3, 1925, discusses his draft into the United States Army in December 1943; his basic training in Fort Knox, KY and intensive training with Rangers; transferring to Camp Maxie, TX, where he joined the 99th Division and immediately went to England; crossing into France with his division and participating in several skirmishes with the Germans; fighting the Third Panzer Division, which helped to push American forces further into Germany through the Siegfried Line; fighting near Cologne, Germany and encountering several concentration camps; helping to liberate the few surviving prisoners at Ohrdruf; going south into combat after the arrival of the Red Cross; reaching Dachau 3-B and then liberating the Moosburg prison camp (Stalag VII A) in Germany, which had about 30,000 prisoners, including some American prisoners of war; going to the Landshut sub-camp of Dachau to meet up with English and Canadian troops; and his assignment after the war to work temporarily in Cherbourg, France.

    Oral history interview with Lore Baer

    Oral history interview with Lore Baer

    Oral History

    Lore Baer, born August 26, 1938 in Amsterdam, Netherlands, discusses her childhood in Amsterdam; how her family moved from Germany to the Netherlands in 1933; developing a close relationship with her maternal grandfather, who was arrested by the Gestapo and taken to Bergen-Belsen, where he perished; her family's relationship with Elsa and Sam Izaaks, members of the underground resistance; her time in hiding with the Schouten family and becoming friends with Cornelia Schouten; her memories of living as a Catholic in order to conceal her identity as a Jew; hiding in various places on the Schouten family farm in order to avoid the Germans; her difficult separation from the Schouten family at the end of the war and her readjustment to life in Amsterdam; immigrating to the United States with her parents and settling in the Bronx, New York; and returning to the Netherlands to visit with members of the Schouten family several years after moving to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Erich Kulka

    Oral history interview with Erich Kulka

    Oral History

    Erich Kulka (né Erich Schön), born on February 18, 1911 in Vsetín, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic), describes his childhood and family; being raised as a conservative Jew; attending a trade school, where he studied forestry and then worked in the family lumber business; smuggling people through the woods after the German annexation of Austria; being caught, arrested, and tortured by the Gestapo in June 1939; being released from prison in August 1939 and resuming work with the underground; his second arrest in 1940, when he was taken to Dachau as a political prisoner and then transferred to Auschwitz, where he was assigned to a work detail with a group of five in the Birkenau camp; assisting in resistance activities in Auschwitz; going on a death march as the Soviets approached and then put on a train from which he escaped; fleeing from Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring in 1968; living in Vienna, Austria for three months; and how all his family now lives in Israel.

    Oral history interview with Cornelia Schouten

    Oral history interview with Cornelia Schouten

    Oral History

    Cornelia Schouten, born on January 21, 1920 in Huizen, Netherlands, describes growing up as one of five children of a Christian farming family in Oosterblokker, Netherlands; one of her brothers serve in the Dutch Army and fight against the Nazis in 1940; the arrest of her father and uncle during the German occupation of the Netherlands because they were striking in protest of the occupation; her family’s decision to harbor those who resisted the Nazis, including members of the resistance and men who were drafted for forced labor; sheltering the young Jewish girl, Lore Baer, for over two years; Lore’s parents emerging from hiding after the war and reclaiming their daughter; reuniting with Lore several times after the war; and eventually immigrating to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Drexel Sprecher

    Oral history interview with Drexel Sprecher

    Oral History

    Drexel Sprecher, born on March 25, 1913 in Independence, WI, describes his family; his education at the University of Wisconsin, the London School of Economics, and at the Harvard School of Law; receiving a position on the Labor Board in 1938; his enlistment in the United States Army after the US declared war on Germany; being sent to London, England, where he was assigned to the Inspector General's office; later serving as a prosecutor of Nazi war criminals in the Nuremberg Trials; and prosecuting Baldur von Schirach, the leader of the Hitler Youth.

    Oral history interview with Bela Blau

    Oral history interview with Bela Blau

    Oral History

    Bela Blau, born in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia) in 1910, describes his family; getting married in 1930 and moving to Zilina, Slovakia; serving in the army for eighteen months and then working as a salesman representing a photo company; having a son in 1937; being dismissed from his job in 1938 because of his Jewish background; being arrested by two Hlinka Guards one day after Yom Kippur in 1942; his and his family’s deportation to Auschwitz, where he was placed in Block 10 and worked on building a bridge above the River Sota; doing writing jobs for an illiterate German Kapo because he spoke German; being assigned to the Kommando Kanada until May 1943 when he became a scribe and met his future second wife Magda; going on a death march in January 1945 from Auschwitz-Birkenau to Mauthausen, where he spent one month until he was transferred to Gusen, where he worked as an engineer fixing petrol tanks, gas tanks, and the wings of Messerschmitt planes; his transfer to Gunskirchen on May 1; and United States forces liberating him on May 7, 1945 in Gunskirchen.

    Oral history interview with Magda Blau

    Oral history interview with Magda Blau

    Oral History

    Magda Blau, born on August 19, 1916 in Michalovce, Czechoslovakia (Slovakia), describes growing up in a Jewish family; becoming a kindergarten teacher; the German invasion and her deportation to Auschwitz, where she worked scrubbing floors for three months until she became an assistant to the block supervisor; being put in charge of the barrack for medical experiments in the autumn of 1942 and becoming the protégé of Dr. Eduard Wirths, the garrison physician; later working in an office and becoming the concentration camp commander of the camp for Hungarian Jews; getting a job counting potatoes in a kitchen and then a job as a concentration camp supervisor in a fabric production facility; going on a death march on January 18, 1945 to Malchow, where they were liberated by the Soviet Army; settling in Prague, Czech Republic for a short time and then immigrating to Israel; and finally immigrating to Australia in 1965.

    Oral history interview with Barbara Ledermann Rodbell

    Oral history interview with Barbara Ledermann Rodbell

    Oral History

    Barbara Lederman Rodbell, born in 1925 in Berlin, Germany, describes her childhood; moving to Amsterdam, Netherlands in 1933 with her family; becoming friends with Anne Frank and her family; the German invasion of the Netherlands in 1940; her boyfriend getting her false papers through his underground contacts; the deportation of her mother, sister, and father to Westerbork and then to Auschwitz; working for the resistance and surviving using her false papers; helping other Jews find hiding places; joining a ballet company for two years after the war; and immigrating to the United States in November 1947.

    Oral history interview with Jerry Slivka

    Oral history interview with Jerry Slivka

    Oral History

    Jerry Slivka, born on July 11, 1915 in Western Ukraine, describes his memories of the Soviet takeover of Russia; moving to the neighboring town of Povorsk, Ukraine with his family; participating with the Zionist movement and joining a kibbutz; moving to Łódź, where he worked as a manager of a village store from 1939 to 1941; entering the Polish Army in 1939 but settling in Soviet-held territory after the takeover of Poland; joining the reserves of the Soviet Army; escaping a German attack and seeking refuge at Soviet military headquarters; being sent to a labor camp in Stalingrad (Volgograd), Russia and then to the railroads east of the Volga because the Soviets were suspicious of him; working in a coal mine near Moscow, Russia for one-and-a-half years before he was freed; his interment in Italy until he could return to Łódź in 1946; and immigrating to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Rochelle Blackman Slivka

    Oral history interview with Rochelle Blackman Slivka

    Oral History

    Rochelle Blackman Slivka, born in 1922 in Vilnius, Lithuania, describes growing up in a Jewish family; the German occupation of Vilnius in June 1941 and moving into the ghetto with her family in October; her mother’s death in the ghetto; the liquidation of the ghetto in 1943 and being transported to the Kaiserwald concentration camp in Latvia and later to Stutthof; her father’s murder in an Estonian prison camp because he had served as a Jewish council member; her experiences in the camps until she had to go on a death march, during which the Soviet Army liberated her; beginning to make her way back to Vilnius with her sister but instead going to West Germany; separating from her sister while they both awaited permission to go to the United States; learning nursing during her stay at a German displaced persons camp; immigrating to the United States and arriving in Massachusetts on May 18, 1949; working as a nurse’s aide in an American hospital; and meeting and marrying a Holocaust survivor in the United States in 1952.

    Oral history interview with Francis Akos

    Oral history interview with Francis Akos

    Oral History

    Francis Akos, born on March 30, 1922 in Budapest, Hungary, describes his childhood; attending a music academy, from which he graduated in 1941; becoming the concertmaster for the Budapest Jewish Community Cultural Center orchestra; being drafted for forced labor into the Hungarian Army in 1943; getting captured with other Jews in Budapest while on leave from the army to get fresh clothes; being sent by train to Neuengamme on November 4, 1944; playing violin in the camp; his evacuation from Neuengamme on May 3, 1945 and being transported by the ship Cap Arcona, a passenger liner that was evacuating refugees from West Prussia; the British mistakenly attacking the Cap Arcona and three other prisoner ships, which resulted in eight thousand deaths; returning to Budapest after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1954.

    Oral history interview with Beno Helmer

    Oral history interview with Beno Helmer

    Oral History

    Beno Helmer, born in 1923 in Teplice, Czechoslovakia, describes his childhood and family; using his foreign language skills to land small movie roles before the war; attempting to settle in Hungary with his family before the war; his family’s deportation to Łódź in 1939 because they did not have immigration papers; arriving in the Łódź ghetto and staying there until he had to begin doing forced labor outside the ghetto in 1942; securing a job posing as a non-Jewish German and collecting information for the underground and becoming an expert at derailing trains; returning to the ghetto when his father became sick and remaining with his family until they were deported to Auschwitz after the liquidation of the Łódź ghetto; his deportations to Gross-Rosen, Krupp Bertha-Werk at Laskowitz-Meleschwitz, Buchenwald, and Ludwigslust; his liberation by American soldiers while in a Russian prisoner-of-war camp; attempting to get back to Poland and on the way joining a Polish forced labor group that was later incorporated into the Russian Army; spending time hunting for Nazi war criminals after the war; and living in Europe for several years until he immigrated to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Jerry von Halle

    Oral history interview with Jerry von Halle

    Oral History

    Jerry von Halle, born on December 2, 1922 in Hamburg, Germany, describes his family and childhood; learning the Hitler salute in school and having to fly the Nazi flag over his house on holidays; moving to Amsterdam, Netherlands with his family in 1933 to get away from the Nazi party in Germany; the German invasion of the Netherlands; the Gestapo arresting and sending him to prison; being sent to Mauthausen with his brother and other boys but returning because he claimed to have tuberculosis; learning to be a shoemaker to avoid deportation; hiding in a house in the countryside with his family but returning to Amsterdam with his mother; going into hiding with his mother in the small apartment that belonged to one of his former teachers; his hider being caught and arrested four weeks before the end of the war and having to find a new place to hide; his liberation by Canadian troops; being arrested after the war with his mother because of their German passports but shortly being released when the authorities realized through what they had been; and immigrating to the United States in 1945.

    Oral history interview with Fritzie Weiss Fritzshall

    Oral history interview with Fritzie Weiss Fritzshall

    Oral History

    Fritzie Weiss Fritzshall, born in 1929 in Klyucharki, Czechoslovakia (Kliucharky, Ukraine), discusses her childhood; her father immigrating to the United States but being unable to arrange for her entire family to come over before the war began; no longer being able to attend school and experiencing increased tensions with her neighbors after the German annexation of Czechoslovakia; being forced to move into the ghetto with her family; being loaded onto a train after spending several weeks in the ghetto and arriving in Auschwitz two and a half days later; pretending that she was 15, so she would be old enough to work; her assignment to carry rocks between two places; being sent to the gas chambers during a selection but getting rescued just before she entered the gas chamber itself; working in an airplane factory with six hundred women; running into a forest with a friend and walking to a town that had been liberated by the Russian military; being given an apartment, food, clothing, and medical attention by the Russians; returning home to find her house destroyed; living in her grandmother’s house with other survivors and living off of the money her father sent her; learning that she had an uncle who had survived and sneaking across the border into non-communist Czechoslovakia to reunite with him; and immigrating to the United States in 1947 with her father.

    Oral history interview with Ralph Codikow

    Oral history interview with Ralph Codikow

    Oral History

    Ralph Codikow, born in 1930, in Kaunas, Lithuania, describes his family; the German occupation of Lithuania in 1941 and his brother shortly thereafter being shot at the Seventh Fort; his and his mother’s confinement to the Kaunas ghetto, where his mother saved them by pretending to be married to a male friend; his mother using her husband’s Lithuanian military service papers to forgo deportation to the Ninth Fort; being saved by his work in a ceramics factory when the children’s Aktions were decreasing the number of children in the ghetto; his and his mother’s deportation to Stutthof, where they were separated; his transfer to Landsberg, a sub-camp of Dachau in Germany, and then to Dachau and Auschwitz-Birkenau; contracting measles but being considered healthy enough to go on a forced march to Buchenwald, a concentration camp in Germany, in the winter; his liberation at Buchenwald in April 1945; moving to France after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Ruth Borsos

    Oral history interview with Ruth Borsos

    Oral History

    Ruth Borsos, born in 1923 in Frankfurt, Germany, describes her family; moving to the Netherlands after Kristallnacht in 1938; her and her father obtaining permits to sail to the United States but not being able to do so when Germany invaded the Netherlands in May 1940; her deportation to Westerbork in 1943 and then to Bergen-Belsen in 1944; being interned with her father in a camp near the Swiss border when an exchange agreement with the Allies broke down; being chosen to be traded for German prisoners because of their foreign passports; their liberation from the internment camp by French forces on April 23, 1945; spending some time in a United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration camp after the war; returning to the Netherlands in 1947 and receiving a visa to immigrate to the United States; and marrying another Holocaust survivor, whom she met in Washington, DC.

    Oral history interview with Simone Marguerite Lipman

    Oral history interview with Simone Marguerite Lipman

    Oral History

    Simone Marguerite Lipman (née Weil), born on April 4, 1920 in Ringendorf, France, describes her family; participating in a Jewish scouting organization, Les Eclaireurs Israélites de France, with her brother; moving to Strasbourg, France, a city with a vibrant Jewish community; graduating from high school in 1938 and moving to southern France to care for her elderly grandmother; relocating to Blâmont, France because of fears of Nazi invasion; training in early childhood education and working at a private school in Paris, France for a few months until she returned to take care of her mother who was extremely ill; the German invasion of France in May 1940; packing up her family’s belongings and driving towards southern France; arriving in Périgeaux, France, where her family had to register as Jews; going to the Rivesaltes camp in France to work for the Organization for Children’s Rescue, for which she distributed food, cared for the children, and tried to find ways to get them out of the camp; helping to rescue hundreds of children with the Catholic Church after the Nazis began to round up children in late 1942; working to reopen many children’s homes after the war ended; receiving a scholarship from America’s National Council of Jewish Women for her work during the war; moving to the United States in 1946 to attend Tulane University, where she received a master’s degree in social work; returning to Europe, where she trained employees of children’s homes to deal with the special needs of young Holocaust survivors; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Shony Alex Braun

    Oral history interview with Shony Alex Braun

    Oral History

    Shony Alex Braun, born on July 14, 1930 in Transylvania, Romania (possibly Cristuru Secuiesc, Romania), describes his family and early childhood; learning to play the violin at age five; the occupation of his town by Hungarian forces in 1940 and by the Germans in 1944; being deported to Auschwitz in May 1944; his transfer into the Natzweiler (Struthof) camp system in France and then to Dachau, where American forces liberated him in April 1945; his immigration to the United States in 1950; and becoming a professional composer and violinist.

    Oral history interview with Doriane Kurz

    Oral history interview with Doriane Kurz

    Oral History

    Doriane Kurz, born in Vienna, Austria in March 1936, describes her family and early childhood; moving to Maastricht, Netherlands and then Amsterdam, Netherlands in 1939 for her father’s business; experiencing several Nazi air raids over Amsterdam; Dutch Jews losing their businesses in 1942; her parents being imprisoned for trying to escape from the country and then getting deported to Westerbork; her father’s transfer to Auschwitz on November 10, 1942 and never being heard from again; her mother’s return to Amsterdam to take care of her and her brother; going into hiding with two farmers in the countryside; her capture and deportation to Westerbork with her mother and brother at the end of 1943; their transfer to Bergen-Belsen; contracting typhus in March 1944; being liberated by English troops while on a train ride; going to a displaced persons camp in Maastricht in June 1945; her mother’s death in March 1945 due to cancer; and immigrating to the United States in July 1945 with her brother to live with her uncle.

    Oral history interview with David Lieberman

    Oral history interview with David Lieberman

    Oral History

    David Lieberman, born in Częstochowa, Poland on December 31, 1925, describes his family; living through pogroms as a young child; having to move into the town’s ghetto and perform forced labor after the German occupation; seeing many of his family members deported to camps; his deportation to Treblinka, where he escaped after eleven days by cutting a hole in the fence with wire cutters that he had stolen; running with two friends to the house of a nearby farmer who put the three onto a train headed back to Częstochowa; reuniting with one brother, his sister, and his mother upon his return; being taken to another concentration camp, where he worked in a munitions factory as a bullet maker; the camp’s liberation and traveling by train to Karlovy Vary, Czechoslovakia, where he entered a United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency camp; traveling to Italy with the intention of taking a boat to Palestine but being returned to Karlovy Vary by the Italian government; and soon immigrating to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Laura Margolis

    Oral history interview with Laura Margolis

    Oral History

    Laura Margolis, born in Constantinople, Turkey in 1903, describes her family; immigrating to the United States in 1908 and settling in Ohio; becoming a social worker for the Jewish Welfare Society of Cleveland after graduating from college; joining the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee and going to Havana, Cuba, where she was in charge of sheltering and feeding Jewish refugees; her transfer to Shanghai, China in May 1941, where she aided over 8,000 Jewish refugees; her capture by Japanese forces after the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and going into an internment camp; faking an illness to be transported to an American hospital, where she knew a doctor; the doctor lying about her health and refusing to release her from the hospital; returning to the United States as part of a prisoner of war exchange in 1944; being sent to Barcelona, Spain in 1945 by the JDC to aid Jewish refugees; helping to organize a parcel-sending program to former prisoners of concentration camps after their liberation; moving to Israel in 1953; and returning to the United States in 1983 to retire.

    Oral history interview with Paul Strassmann

    Oral history interview with Paul Strassmann

    Oral History

    Paul Strassman, born on January 24, 1929 in Trenčín, Czechoslovakia (now in Slovakia), discusses his father’s work as an army officer for Austria-Hungary in World War I; the antisemitism his family experienced in the 1930s, which led them to consider escaping the country; his father divesting his share of his business; getting baptized, so they could avoid deportation; going into hiding in late August 1944; his father’s brief emergence from hiding and getting caught by the Gestapo, who sent him to Sachsenhausen; joining the Jegorov Brigade, a partisan group, in September 1944 and remaining in it until April 1945; joining the Czech Army in April 1945 as a noncommissioned officer and going to his station in Bratislava, Slovakia until the end of the war; remaining in Czechoslovakia but leaving just before the Communists took power in 1948; living briefly in Paris, France and London, England before immigrating to the United States in October 1948; and discovering that he was the sole survivor of his family.

    Oral history interview with Ernest James

    Oral history interview with Ernest James

    Oral History

    Ernest James, born in 1920 in Ord, NE, describes his family; joining the California National Guard in 1940; holding the position of sergeant and being called into active service in 1941; being stationed along the coast of San Francisco, CA and then going on to serve as platoon leader and company commander of the 238th Engineer Combat Battalion in the later years of the war; his unit’s attachment to the 1st Army and the 7th Corps; landing in Europe, where they swept through France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany; reaching Nordhausen in April 1945 and finding workers from a V-2 missile and arms plant; ordering the German civilians to begin burying the large number of people who had already died; and assisting in the guarding of a nearby camp containing approximately 80,000-100,000 military prisoners of war.

    Oral history interview with Chaim Engel

    Oral history interview with Chaim Engel

    Oral History

    Chaim Engel, born in January 1916, describes growing up in Łódź, Poland; his experiences with feeling different as a Jew growing up; fighting in the Polish Army during the war and getting captured as a prisoner of war; being released and traveling to Lublin to work as a farmhand; his father’s and step-mother’s transport to Sobibór in June 1942; going to Izbica Lubelska with a friend to join a partisan unit; being caught and sent on a transport in September 1942 with about eight hundred people to Sobibór, where he worked sorting the clothes of people who had come into the camp; getting beaten for stealing pants on a couple of occasions; meeting his future wife Selma when they were both assigned to sort clothes; participating in the Sobibór uprising and escaping with Selma to a farm where they stayed until June 1944; his liberation by Russian troops and going to Parczew, Poland, where he and Selma had a child and started to re-organize their lives; moving to Holland, where they stayed until 1951 when they immigrated to Israel; and his and Selma’s immigration to the United States in 1957.

    Oral history interview with Selma Engel

    Oral history interview with Selma Engel

    Oral History

    Selma Engel (née Wynberg), born in Groningen, Netherlands in 1922, describes her family and childhood; moving to Zwolle, Netherlands when she was seven years old; her family’s ownership of a kosher hotel; her father dying of a heart attack in 1941; the German invasion of the Netherlands and the confiscation of her family’s hotel; moving with her mother into the home of another Jewish family; receiving help from a Catholic priest in 1942 to hide in a non-Jewish family’s home; never seeing her mother and brothers again; hiding in a nurse’s home in Utrecht, Netherlands for a few months until she moved into another family’s house, where the police soon discovered her; being sent to an Amsterdam prison for three months; her deportation in 1943 to the transit camp in Vught, Netherlands, from which she went to Westerbork, where she worked in the laundry room; her transfer to Sobibór, where she had to sort clothes and clean the woods and railroads; contracting typhus; meeting Chaim, her future husband, when they had to dance in front of the Germans; escaping with Chaim from Sobibór during the uprising and hiding in the woods for several weeks; staying with a farmer in exchange for money for nine months; the farmer taking her and Chaim to Chełm, Poland in 1944; their liberation in July 1944; immigrating to Israel in 1951; and immigrating to the United States in 1957.

    Oral history interview with Morris Engelson

    Oral history interview with Morris Engelson

    Oral History

    Morris Engelson, born in 1935 in Paberze, Lithuania, describes his family; his father’s work in the grain business; the Soviet invasion in 1939; the German invasion in 1941 and forcing the Jews of Paberze into a ghetto; dressing up as a peasant woman with his mother to escape the ghetto that was soon liquidated by the Einsatzgruppen in September 1941; moving around and hiding in different farms with his mother; being smuggled to the Lithuanian-Polish border and ending up in another ghetto; reuniting with his father in April 1943 and hiding in a barn and then a farmer’s attic; moving westward towards the end of the war and arriving in the American zone in Germany; going to a Berlin displaced persons camp and later to the Gobrasa displaced persons camp in Bavaria after the war; and immigrating to the United States after four years.

    Oral history interview with Lonia Mosak

    Oral history interview with Lonia Mosak

    Oral History

    Lonia Mosak, born on July 20, 1922 in Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki, Poland, describes her family; moving to Ciechanów, Poland when she was young; attending a separate Jewish school in Poland and serving in a Zionist youth group; completing her school education in 1936; becoming seriously ill with typhus after the German invasion of Poland in 1939 but recovering even though Jewish physicians could not use medicine to contain the epidemic; her internment in Neustadt, a labor camp in Germany; being split up from her family in 1942 and transported to Auschwitz, where she remained until January 18, 1945 doing forced labor; being forced on a death march to Gross-Rosen and then to Ravensbrück, where she was liberated by the Soviet Army on April 30, 1945; returning to Ciechanów after her liberation; residing for short periods in Łódź and Bialystok to await the return of her last brother from Russia; marrying in Austria after the war; immigrating to a Polish-Jewish neighborhood of Chicago, IL in 1946; and having two children and eventually bringing her brother to the United States.

    Oral history interview with Agnes Grossman Aranyi

    Oral history interview with Agnes Grossman Aranyi

    Oral History

    Agnes Grossman Aranyi, born on May 2, 1936 in Budapest, Hungary, describes her family and childhood; her father being drafted into forced labor camps from 1939 until 1942 when he was finally deported; attending Jewish school until 1942 when the war began in Hungary; the restrictions on Jewish life in Budapest; being warned by a friend to disappear because he knew that the round-ups were to begin soon; meeting a woman who worked for the underground and who took them to live as Christians in a Swedish house set up by Raoul Wallenberg; the Germans invading their home and forcing them into a ghetto; the Russians arriving to liberate the Budapest ghetto; living under Russian oppression until 1956, when she escaped to Austria with her fiancé during the Hungarian Revolution; and immigrating to North Carolina shortly thereafter.

    Oral history interview with David Bergman

    Oral history interview with David Bergman

    Oral History

    David Bergman, born on May 3, 1931 in Beckov, Czechoslovakia (present day Velykyĭ Bychkiv, Ukraine), describes his family and childhood; the German occupation of his town, previously annexed by Hungary, in 1944; his deportation to Auschwitz in late 1944; being transferred with his father to Płaszow, Gross-Rosen, and then Reichenbach an der Fils; being among three of 150 people in a cattle car who survived a transport to Dachau; being placed on a train to Innsbruck, Austria three days before the Americans arrived in Dachau; his liberation while on a death march from Innsbruck toward the front line of combat between United States and German troops; going into in an American hospital and rehabilitating; traveling to his old family home and finding it occupied by a Russian family; discovering that everyone in his family except him had perished; immigrating to the United States, where he settled in Cleveland, Ohio; and joining the American military to fight in the Korean War.

    Oral history interview with Lila Lam Nowakowska

    Oral history interview with Lila Lam Nowakowska

    Oral History

    Lila Lam Nawakowska, born on November 24, 1924 in Stanislawów, Poland (Stanislav, Ukraine), describes growing up in a large family; the invasion of Poland in 1939 and the Soviet occupation of Stanislav until June 1941, when the Soviets withdrew, and the Germans entered and constructed a ghetto; her father becoming the chairperson of the ghetto’s Judenrat because he was such an influential businessman in their community; remaining in the ghetto with her family until December 1942, when they were able to obtain falsified Aryan papers and escape on the eve of the ghetto's liquidation in January 1943; renting an apartment in Warsaw, Poland and remaining there until the Warsaw uprising, when she was transported to Mauthausen; briefly spending time doing forced labor in Steyr, a sub-camp of Mauthausen and in Znojmo, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic); her liberation by Soviet soldiers in May 1945; and reuniting with her mother and future husband shortly after the end of the war.

    Oral history interview with Yaffa Rosenthal

    Oral history interview with Yaffa Rosenthal

    Oral History

    Yaffa Rosenthal, born in Solotvyno, Czechoslovakia (now Ukraine) on October 7, 1926, describes her family and childhood; her experiences with antisemitism as a child; the Ukrainians taking over her town in 1938 and learning in a different language in school; her father losing his job and having to work in mines and on a cattle farm to support his family; receiving a notice that her family would be taken away in the early summer of 1941; her deportation to Yasinya (IAsinia), Ukraine and then being marched toward Galicia, Poland; escaping from the Germans and going to live with her uncle in Oradea, Romania and then with her sister in Budapest, Hungary; having a somewhat normal life until the German occupation of Hungary in 1944; hiding in the Budapest ghetto until January 1945 when she was liberated by Russian troops; trying to survive after the war and receiving help from the Swedish Red Cross; reuniting with her sister in Debrecen, Hungary and then returning with her to Budapest; participating in the Budapest Zionist organization and immigrating to Israel in 1948; getting married to an American man in 1959; and immigrating to the United States to settle in New York, NY.

    Oral history interview with Eve Wagszul Rich

    Oral history interview with Eve Wagszul Rich

    Oral History

    Eve Wagszul Rich, born in Kovel', Ukraine, describes her family and childhood; the German invasion and having to move into the ghetto; the Germans bursting into her home one night and killing her father in front of her; immediately running away into the forest and going to nearby villages, where she met peasants who gave her some food; going into hiding with a group of Carmelite Nuns; the Germans discovering her and sending her to Majdanek; escaping with a friend during a transport and going to Bavaria to work on a farm; her liberation by American forces; and immigrating to New York to live with her grandmother’s sister.

    Oral history interview with Magda Mezei Lapedus

    Oral history interview with Magda Mezei Lapedus

    Oral History

    Magda Mezei Lapidus, born on July 18, 1923 in Budapest, Hungary, describes her family and childhood; attending the Commercial Academy of Budapest for two years; first realizing the danger posed by the Nazis when they invaded Austria in 1938; seeing several young Hungarian men shipped out to labor camps starting in 1941; her brother being taken away to a labor camp in 1943; the German invasion of Hungary on March 19, 1944; being forced into the Budapest ghetto and living in the Star of David House; her father returning to live with them in June 1944; being forced on a march with her father to the outskirts of Budapest, at which point she was separated from her father and never saw him again; hiding in a bush on her march and ripping her identifying star off and returning to Budapest to reunite with her mother and brother; going to the Spanish Legation near the ghetto and receiving a safety pass to move into a house protected from German invasion; remaining in the house until January 18, 1945, when the Russians liberated Budapest; and discovering the fate of her father.

    Oral history interview with Avraham Ronai

    Oral history interview with Avraham Ronai

    Oral History

    Avraham Ronai, born on September 14, 1932 in Budapest, Hungary, describes growing up in a religious family; attending a secular public school and a Jewish school at night in Budapest; not experiencing many difficulties under the pro-Nazi Hungarian regime; the German invasion of Budapest in March 1944 but not really suffering until the Nazis took full control over Hungary in October 1944; the Nazis rounding up Jews into ghettos and deporting them; seeking help at the Spanish Embassy in Budapest and receiving a space in a Spanish safe-house due to the efforts of Giorgio Perlasca; remaining in the safe-house until the Soviets liberated Budapest in 1945; and immigrating to Israel in 1949 because of the oppressive Hungarian Communist regime.

    Oral history interview with Eva Konigsberg Lang

    Oral history interview with Eva Konigsberg Lang

    Oral History

    Eva Konigsberg Lang, born on April 1925 in Budapest, Hungary, describes her childhood and family; the Jewish community losing several of its rights when the war began; her relatives arriving from Czechoslovakia to live with her; being forbidden to attend school after March 1944; receiving a protective pass to get food; hearing that the wife of any man in forced labor would not be deported and getting married in 1944; hiding in a Spanish protective house on St. Paul Street and getting food supplies provided by the Jewish Council; the German occupation of Budapest; forging a telegram to prove that they were under Spanish protection and to save themselves from the Arrow Cross; and reflecting on how certain Spanish diplomats saved her life during the war.

    Oral history interview with Cornelius Loen

    Oral history interview with Cornelius Loen

    Oral History

    Cornelius Loen, born in Novi Sad, Yugoslavia (now Serbia) on May 2, 1922, describes growing up with a Jewish father and Gentile mother; the German invasion of his town on January 23, 1942 and German troops killing two of his uncles; escaping with his family to Budapest, Hungary, where they lived for ten months; his deportation to a forced labor camp in Hungary, where he remained until 1944; escaping to a nearby barn, where he hid for three days, during the liquidation of the camp; Russian troops liberating him while he hid in this barn; walking to a nearby displaced persons camp, where he met his future wife Masha; taking a Russian transport to Budapest and reuniting with his parents; discovering that his father had survived a concentration camp and his mother had helped to hide and save many Jewish people after her family was taken away; and immigrating to Los Angeles, CA in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Thomas Blatt

    Oral history interview with Thomas Blatt

    Oral History

    Thomas Blatt, born in 1927 in Izbica Lubelska, Poland, describes growing up in an Orthodox family; the establishment of a ghetto run by the Germans after the war began in September 1939; working in a garage, which protected him from early ghetto roundups; trying to escape to Hungary with false papers in 1942 but getting caught; his and his family’s deportation to Sobibór, where his family was gassed immediately; the Germans choosing him as a laborer because of his mechanical skills; participating in and escaping during the Sobibór uprising on October 14, 1943 by escaping through the wire fences and avoiding the land mines; going into hiding with a friend on several farms; hiding in a stable and then in an abandoned brick factory; working as a courier for the Polish underground; and immigrating to the United States in 1959.

    Oral history interview with Anita Magnus Frank

    Oral history interview with Anita Magnus Frank

    Oral History

    Anita Magnus Frank, born on January 29, 1936 in Emmen, Netherlands, describes her family; her move to Breda, Netherlands, where her family was living when the war broke out; the German invasion of 1940 and being told to leave because the Germans were going to bomb the town; walking thirty kilometers to a farm, where they stayed for five days; returning to Breda and experiencing increased persecution; obtaining false passports and assuming Dutch names to shield their Jewish identities in 1942 (Verified from other sources, the name of the individual who assisted Anita and her family was Govardus Pinxteren, who was later honored as Righteous Among the Nations); going into hiding first in a non-Jewish neighbor's home and then in a Quaker family’s home in Bilthoven, Netherlands; living as “normal” Dutch schoolchildren except having to hide their Jewish identities and constantly being in fear; leaving their hiding place in August 1944 because the Quaker family was too scared to keep them; returning to Limburg with her parents; the liberation of Limburg in September 1944; returning to Breda in April 1945 and living in an uninhabitable, bombed house for six months until they could move into a bigger and better house in the same town; and immigrating to the United States on December 7, 1952 because antisemitism was still a problem after the war.

    Oral history interview with Guta Blass Weintraub

    Oral history interview with Guta Blass Weintraub

    Oral History

    Guta Blass Weintraub, born on January 22, 1924 in Łódź, Poland, describes her childhood and family; her experiences with antisemitism in her youth; attending a private, Jewish, all-girls high school until the German invasion in September 1939; moving from Łódź to Wierzbnik-Starachowice in December 1939 because of fears about what the Germans had planned; the formation of a ghetto and having to share a home with at least one other family; meeting her future husband when he came to her home in the ghetto asking for her father to make him a suit with special pockets; being rounded up in the ghetto’s marketplace and sent to labor camps; managing to smuggle out some pictures with her as she, her mother, and her father were taken to a woodworking camp; surviving several shootings and experiencing starvation; her deportation to Auschwitz in 1942 and staying there until 1944, when she was transferred to Ravensbrück; her liberation by the Swedish Red Cross; and traveling to Sweden to recover.

    Oral history interview with Henry Schmelzer

    Oral history interview with Henry Schmelzer

    Oral History

    Henry Schmelzer, born in March 1924 in Vienna, Austria, describes growing up as the youngest of four children in a middle-class family; graduating from a Jewish high school in 1938 shortly before it closed; his brothers fleeing, while he and the rest of his family endured Nazi raids on their home until they were evicted; his father losing his business and having severe depression; escaping to England on December 18, 1938 and finding refuge at a children's camp; remaining in England throughout the war and living with a group of young Zionists; enlisting in the British Army in 1943; being sent to a mountain unit, the 52nd Division; receiving his degree at the London School of Economics; spending 18 years in Israel; and immigrating to the United States in 1969.

    Oral history interview with Helen Liebowitz Goldkind

    Oral history interview with Helen Liebowitz Goldkind

    Oral History

    Helen Liebowitz Goldkind, born in Volosyanka, Czechoslovakia (Ukraine) on July 9, 1928, describes her childhood and family; the Hungarian occupation of Czechoslovakia and going into a ghetto in Uzhgorod, Ukraine; maintaining religious traditions in the ghetto; the Germans taking over the ghetto and deporting her and her family to Auschwitz; her transport to another camp and hearing bombs going off during the train ride; arriving in a German camp and working in a munitions factory; going on a truck with two hundred other girls to Bergen-Belsen, where English troops eventually liberated her; the Swedish Red Cross offering to take care of her and others in Sweden; discovering that only one of her sisters survived the war and had immigrated to the United States; and following her sister to the United States, where she settled in New York, NY and got married.

    Oral history interview with Johanne Eva Liebmann

    Oral history interview with Johanne Eva Liebmann

    Oral History

    Johanne Eva Liebmann (née Hirsch), born in 1924 in Karlsruhe, Germany, describes her family and childhood; her family’s deportation to the Gurs camp in southern France in October 1940; being rescued by the Children's Aid Society in September 1941 and hiding in a children’s home in Le Chambon-sur-Lignon, France until 1943, when she obtained false papers and crossed into Switzerland; discovering that her mother had died in Auschwitz; getting married in Geneva, Switzerland in 1945 and having a daughter in 1946; and immigrating to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Max Liebmann

    Oral history interview with Max Liebmann

    Oral History

    Max Liebmann, born on September 3, 1921 in Mannheim, Germany, describes his family and childhood; attending school until December 1937, when he had to quit because of the antisemitism he was experiencing; his memories of Kristallnacht; his father travelling to Greece and Italy to do business since he could no longer do it in Germany; he and his mother being called into a Wehrmacht office shortly after the war began in September 1939; being made to do forced labor harvesting fields in East Germany; being deported with his mother to the Gurs concentration camp in France; playing the cello as part of several concerts given at Gurs; meeting his future wife in the camp through a connection his mother made; managing inventories for French camp officials; his transfer to the Talluyers camp in July 1942; escaping to Le Chambon, France to reunite with his girlfriend for a short period until they both had to find hiding places; finding a guide to take him through France and into Switzerland; arriving in Ouchy, Switzerland and receiving work papers on December 22, 1942; reuniting with his girlfriend in Switzerland on February 28, 1943 and marrying her in Geneva on April, 14, 1945; having a daughter in 1946; and immigrating to the United States in 1948.

    Oral history interview with Giorgio Perlasca

    Oral history interview with Giorgio Perlasca

    Oral History

    Giorgio Perlasca, born on January 31, 1910 in Como, Italy, describes growing up with a father who worked for the Italian government in Padua; fighting in the Spanish Civil War and later taking a position in an Italian trade firm; working around Eastern Europe after Italy entered World War II in 1940; maintaining an official position with the Italian Trade Commission and living in Belgrade, Yugoslavia in 1941 and 1942; continuing to work for the Italian government until the fall of Admiral Miklos Horthy in 1944; his internment by the Hungarian government from April to October 1944 after the Germans took control of Hungary; escaping his internment with falsified papers provided by a member of the Swiss Diplomatic Corps; adopting a Spanish nationality because of his veteran status from the Spanish Civil War; posing as the Spanish Charge d'Affaires after the flight of the appointed Charge d'Affaires for Spain in December 1944; helping to establish of several safe-houses in Budapest to shelter Jews under Spanish protection; coordinating his efforts with representatives of other neutral nations, including Raoul Wallenberg of Sweden, and the representatives of the Vatican, Portugal, and Switzerland, to shelter and save Jews from deportation; and returning to Italy to start a family in February 1945.

    Oral history interview with David J. Selznick

    Oral history interview with David J. Selznick

    Oral History

    David J. Selznick, born in Anykščiai, Lithuania in 1912, describes growing up as the youngest child in a large family; going to Ukmergė, Lithuania to study at a yeshiva in order to become a rabbi; his father’s death shortly before his twelfth birthday and becoming the legal master of his father's estate; deciding to sell off his family's farm and livestock and move to Kaunas, Lithuania; attending a Yiddish night school in Kaunas and working during the day as a retailer of office supplies; his experiences with antisemitism, which hurt his business; selling his business to two Christians but remaining as a silent partner; receiving a visa to serve as a diplomatic envoy to New York because of his business connections but instead deciding to leave for Portugal; returning to Kaunas in 1936 because he was worried about his mother and sisters; his deportation to the Kaunas ghetto in 1941; performing forced labor until late 1944 because he had worked for the ghetto Kommandant; smuggling food to the Jewish prisoners in the ghetto; escaping during the liquidation of the Kaunas ghetto in July 1944 and fleeing into the countryside, where he hid with some other Jews; his liberation by the Soviet Army; and immigrating to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Elisabeth Model

    Oral history interview with Elisabeth Model

    Oral History

    Elisabeth Model (née Dittmann), born in Bayreuth, Germany in 1897, describes her family; getting married in 1922 and moving to Amsterdam, where she worked as a sculptor; returning to Germany after Kristallnacht to help her mother emigrate; helping her mother sneak into the Netherlands with the help of a Dutch underground organization; her husband being imprisoned for one month by the Nazis after being falsely accused of smuggling money into the Netherlands; bribing a woman at the Spanish Consulate to give her and her husband exit visas in 1941; traveling to Madrid, Spain; and eventually arriving in to New York, NY in 1942.

    Oral history interview with Joseph Levine

    Oral history interview with Joseph Levine

    Oral History

    Joseph Levine, born in Molodezhnyi, Russia on July 20, 1907, describes the difficulties his family faced in World War I; his family’s immigration to San Francisco, CA on February 12, 1917 and then settling in New Haven, CT; attending Franklin and Marshall College and then the graduate school for Jewish social work; working with the Jewish Board of Guardians for six years until 1941; starting to work as a parole officer in 1941; joining the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee in 1945 as a social worker; going to Schwandorf, Germany, where he worked with many Polish Jews; his transfer to Dachau in October of 1945, where he also worked closely with the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; bearing witness to the war crime trials at Nuremberg; and returning to the United States, where he worked as the executive secretary of the Indiana Jewish Historical Society.

    Oral history interview with Eugenia Blau Szamosi

    Oral history interview with Eugenia Blau Szamosi

    Oral History

    Eugenia Blau Szamosi, born in Transylvania in 1914, describes her family, childhood, and growing up in Budapest, Hungary; her experiences with antisemitism in Hungary; marrying in November 1941 and having a son the following year and a girl the next; her husband avoiding forced labor by spending time in a mental hospital; having to move into the Jewish section of the town and wear the yellow star after the German invasion of Hungary; escaping from the Budapest ghetto and looking for a flat in town; pretending to be a Transylvanian refugee because she had Aryan looks; returning to the ghetto to work with her husband in a children’s home and await deportation; getting the supplies to make shutzpasses for people; getting Spanish passports for her and her husband, which helped to save them from deportation; her family’s liberation and her husband’s work for the International Red Cross after the war; and immigrating to Israel in June 1949.

    Oral history interview with Irene Dynkiewicz Silver

    Oral history interview with Irene Dynkiewicz Silver

    Oral History

    Irene Dynkiewicz Silver, born in January 1933 in Łódź, Poland, describes her family and the Jewish community in her town before the war; her family’s move to Warsaw just as the German bombardment of Warsaw began; the establishment of the Warsaw ghetto wall; learning how to read and write from one of her cousins; wearing a kerchief and putting on lipstick to look older and avoid deportation during ghetto-round ups; going into hiding in January 1943 with a woman who had managed to attain a Christian identity for her; not being able to leave the home in which she hid and reading to pass her time; attending school for the first time after the war; traveling to London with several other children to attend a boarding school established by a rabbi; and immigrating to Brooklyn, NY in January 1950 to live with her aunt and uncle.

    Oral history interview with Alice Lok Cahana

    Oral history interview with Alice Lok Cahana

    Oral History

    Alice Lok Cahana, born on February 7, 1929 in Sárvár, Hungary, discusses her childhood; her relationships with her parents, grandfather, and siblings; her experiences in the ghetto in Sárvár, which was situated in a brick factory; her work with children in the ghetto; her deportation by train to Auschwitz; her experiences in "C Lager" of Auschwitz; her memories of selections by Dr. Josef Mengele; her successful rescue of her sister Edith from the infirmary in Auschwitz; her survival of the Auschwitz gas chamber because of a malfunction in the chamber; her memories of camp guard Irma Grese; her transfer from Auschwitz to the Guben concentration camp where she worked in an ammunition factory; her participation in a death march with a group from Guben; her escape and subsequent return to the death march group; her separation from her sister in Bergen-Belsen; her evacuation from Bergen-Belsen and transport to a hospital in Sweden; her reunion with her father in Hungary; her illegal immigration to Israel by boat; her return to Sweden with her husband Moshe Cahana; the Cahana family's move to the United States; and her thoughts on the rescue efforts of Raoul Wallenberg in Hungary.

    Oral history interview with Eva Brust Cooper

    Oral history interview with Eva Brust Cooper

    Oral History

    Eva Brust Cooper, born in 1934 in Budapest, Hungary, discusses her childhood; living on the Pest side of the Danube River; her memories of the German invasion of Hungary in March 1944; the various types of persecution experienced by the Jews in Budapest including the wearing of yellow Stars of David; her father receiving papers from Raoul Wallenberg to avoid deportation; the family's time in hiding in various locations around Budapest; her and her mother's attempts to appear Catholic by going to church, learning the Catechism, and acquiring false identification papers; her family's return to Budapest at the end of World War II; her father's participation in negotiations with Adolf Eichmann in hopes of reducing the number of Hungarian Jews to be deported; her family's immigration to the United States and their new life in New York City; and her activities with various Holocaust survivor groups.

    Oral history interview with Jacob Vogel

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Frieda Belinfante

    Oral history interview with Frieda Belinfante

    Oral History

    Frieda Belinfante, born in 1904 in Amsterdam, Netherlands, describes her family; being raised without a religion because her father was Jewish and her mother was Gentile; the death of her sister in 1915 after an appendectomy and the divorce of her parents soon after; the death of her father in 1923 from natural causes; not being surprised by the Nazi invasion of the Netherlands; getting married in 1931 and divorcing in 1936; becoming the first female conductor of a professional orchestra in Amsterdam; participating in the cultural commission of Amsterdam and receiving instructions from the Nazis about what artists should or should not do; making false identification cards to help save people; discovering her homosexuality but trying to keep it a secret during the war; living disguised as a man for three months; taking on a new female identity and fleeing to Switzerland; participating in several activities of sabotage with other gay and lesbian refugees; returning to Amsterdam after the war and discovering the fates of the members of the resistance group in which she participated; immigrating to the United States in 1947 for a change of scenery in her work; participating in a string of concerts in the US; and her life in America.

    Oral history interview with Philip Vock

    Oral History

    Philip Vock, born in 1929 in Paris, France, discusses his family background and childhood; the German invasion of France in 1940; the confiscation of the family business by the Germans; antisemitism that he encountered in the media and in personal contacts; leaving the occupied zone of France in 1941 and finding refuge in a town on the Spanish border; the German occupation of their town in November 1942; fleeing to Nice, France, which was occupied by the Italians; being denounced to and arrested by the Gestapo as they were preparing to move to another town; being transported to Drancy concentration camp in 1943; life in Drancy and the possibility of escape from the camp; his deportation to Auschwitz concentration camp in 1944; the intake process at Auschwitz and then his outside work detail; the black market within Auschwitz; a death march in January 1945 as the Allies were approaching the camp; life in Buchenwald and liberation; returning to Paris in April 1945; the return of his mother and uncle; and nightmares that he had after liberation.

    Oral history interview with Joseph Gatenio

    Oral History

    Joseph Gatenio, born in 1929 in Thessalonike, Greece, discusses his childhood; the German occupation of Thessalonike in 1940; his deportation from Greece with his family in 1943; the week-long journey to Birkenau; selections at Birkenau; the deaths of family members; his participation in the camp orchestra; how orchestra members helped him survive; being forced to leave the orchestra; the brutality of the SS and Kapos; being transferred from Birkenau to Henkel, then Sachsenhausen, Ohrdruf, Sachsenhausen again, Neubrandenburg, Ravensbrück, and finally Ludwigslust; the appalling conditions in the camps; staying in Ludwigslust until May 1 when they were transported to another camp; his liberation by American soldiers the next day; joining the Russian liberators and wandering throughout Europe for a few months; returning to Thessalonike in December 1945; and the long-term effects of his experiences during the Holocaust on his well-being.

    Oral history interview with Mariette Moscovici

    Oral History

    Mariette Moscovici, born on January 24, 1916 in Iasi, Romania, discusses her family; her father, Hani Garfiender, who was a merchant and owned a store for travel items; her mother, Cecile Garfiender, who was a housewife; attending Alexandru Labrian elementary school; attending Institute Notre Dame for high school; living in Iasi on Cuza Voda street and later on Ice Bratianu street; Rumania entering the war on June 22, 1941; German soldiers entering on the night of June 29, 1941 and taking away all the Jewish men from the shelter; going to the Jewish community the next morning to ask about the fate of the Jewish men and not receiving an answer; stopping at a friend’s house on the way home to warn the men in the family about the arrest of the Jewish men; being stopped on the way home and directed into a convoy; finding her mother and sister in the convoy; being taken to the police headquarters; more Jews arriving at the headquarters wearing pajamas and night gowns because they were taken without anytime to get dressed; the women and girls being released while the men and boys over the age 13 were detained; the chaos of the scene; her father arriving at the shelter in the afternoon; the numerous false alarms to concentrate the population in shelters; the German soldiers enter the shelter around 5pm and demanding their jewelry and money; giving one of the soldiers her money and being instructed by the soldier to go home and not enter the shelters; leaving her aunt’s house with her family the next morning (June 30, 1941) and going home; seeing posters on wall that state the “Communist Jews” of Iasi have been arrested and killed and the rest of the population can continue their lives; staying home and not knowing what happened to other people; going to a market with her cousin dressed like peasants and seeing dead bodies on the street; Jews not being allowed to travel; and the propaganda in the news.

    Oral history interview with Henry van den Boogard

    Oral history interview with Henry van den Boogard

    Oral History

    Henry van den Boogard, born in Holland in 1915, discusses his childhood in Tilburg, Netherlands; his early education and seminary days; his ordination to the priesthood and first mass in 1942; his memories of Jews being helped by non-Jews in the Netherlands; his personal activities with the resistance movement in southern Netherlands such as making false identification papers for various persons, smuggling children into the Netherlands for hiding, and finding hiding places in homes for Jews and other persons; his dealings with the black market in the Netherlands in order to clothe and feed people in hiding; his reflections on antisemitism in the Netherlands; the German invasion of the Netherlands in 1940; the feelings of native Hollanders toward the "Dutch Nazis"; and his life after World War II in the United States where he worked to integrate Catholic churches in Virginia.

    Oral history interview with Jack Moss

    Oral History

    Jack Moss (né Jakuv Mozelsio), born in 1924 in Łódź, Poland, discusses his family background; his encounters with Polish antisemitism; his family's feelings about the possibility of a German occupation; the restrictions imposed on Jews by the Germans; the lucrative business that the Germans brought to his father's tannery; odd jobs that he did at the request of the Germans, including helping to tear down a statue of Tadeusz Kościuszko in Plac Wolności; a German friend who agreed to be a stand-in owner of the tannery, so it would not be confiscated; his uncle, aunt, and other family members fleeing to Tomaszów Mazowiecki, Poland for safety while he and his parents stayed in Łódź; the return of his sister and cousin from Tomaszów Mazowiecki; and how the rest of his family in Tomaszów Mazowiecki perished while he and the others who remained in Łódź were saved.

    Oral history interview with Boleslaw Dytlow

    Oral history interview with Boleslaw Dytlow

    Oral History

    Boleslaw Dytlow, born in 1932 in Pruszków, Poland, describes growing up in a Romani family; the German occupation in September 1939; moving to Warsaw, Poland with his family and earning money there as a musician; being captured on the streets in Warsaw in late 1942 and delivered into the Warsaw ghetto; meeting other Romanies in the ghetto and forming a plan to escape; escaping to the Aryan side in the spring of 1943; leaving Warsaw and only traveling by night; being ambushed by German soldiers on the outskirts of Kielce, Poland; successfully overpowering the Germans and escaping back to Warsaw; and remaining hidden outside of Warsaw until the end of the war.

    Oral history interview with Mel London

    Oral History

    Mel London, born in 1923, discusses growing up in the Bronx, NY with immigrant parents; his awareness of the political situation in Europe before World War II; his concern for family in Europe; his identification with being Jewish; enlisting in the United States Army signal corps in May 1943; going to Officer Candidate School; antisemitism he encountered in the army and prejudice because of his friendships with black soldiers; seeing the aftermath of World War II in Europe; his knowledge of the Nuremberg war crime trials; becoming a documentary filmmaker; the request to interview Albert Speer after his book "Inside the Third Reich" was published in 1970; preparing for the interview; different attitudes towards Speer among Germans of different generations; and his perceptions of Speer.

    Oral history interview with Henry Cohen

    Oral history interview with Henry Cohen

    Oral History

    Henry Cohen, born in 1922 in New York City, NY, describes growing up in a family of Jewish immigrants; receiving a master’s degree in city planning from Massachusetts Institute of Technology; enlisting in the United States Army in 1944 and fighting with the infantry during the German campaign; his appointment as the director of the Föhrenwald displaced persons camp in Germany in January of 1946; leading the camp until July 1946; and returning to the United States to teach at the City College of New York.

    Oral history interview with Gisela Feldman

    Oral History

    Gisela Feldman, born in 1923, discusses her first encounters with antisemitism in Berlin, Germany after Hitler came to power in 1933 and her political awareness at that time; her father's deportation to Poland in 1938 because he was a Polish citizen; the confiscation of her family's apartment; being barred from going to school; her mother obtaining visas to Cuba and booking passage on the SS St. Louis; her father not being able to leave Poland in time to join them on the SS St. Louis; departing with her mother and sister from Germany in 1939; the atmosphere on board the ship; their arrival in Cuba and the announcement that their visas were no longer valid; the desperation of some passengers on board; sailing near the coast of the United States during the return journey to Europe; her family being selected to disembark in England; her job as a domestic in a convalescent home for Jewish refugees in Broadstairs and then as a nanny for a family with two children in London; her involvement in war work, making uniforms and gunpowder bags; meeting and marrying her husband in London in 1943; her mother's attempts to get permission for her father to emigrate from Poland; and her life in England after the war.

    Oral history interview with Bert Fleming and Irene Fleming

    Oral History

    Bert Fleming and Irene Fleming describe how Bert grew up in Warsaw and Łódź; Bert’s family’s deportation to Hannover, Germany before Kristallnacht; Bert’s deportation from Hannover in 1938, receiving aid from the Joint Distribution Committee, and going through the camps; Irene witnessing people being smuggled from her ghetto and fleeing to Siberia; Irene holding on to her violin through her time in the camps; their experiences with Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski and his relationship with the Nazis in the Łódź ghetto; Bert having to shave his head and watch people steal food while in the camps; Bert’s work in several different factories and the transport of all of the goods he produced to Germany; and their immigration to New York and life after the war.

    Oral history interview with Norman Belfer

    Oral history interview with Norman Belfer

    Oral History

    Norman Belfer, born on September 27, 1922 in Wodzislaw, Poland, describes growing up in an Orthodox Jewish family; the German invasion of Wodzislaw in 1939 and hiding in his family’s factory warehouse until they were discovered; the confiscation of his father’s feather and down business; being forced to clean roads around the town with other youth; going to work for a nearby German company while the rest of his family went into hiding in an underground shelter outside of Wodzislaw; his family’s capture and transfer into the Kraków ghetto; returning home, where he retrieved some of the money his family had buried before they had left; hiding for several weeks in his father’s former factory; joining his family in the Kraków ghetto; the liquidation of the ghetto on March 13, 1943; his family’s transfer to Płaszów, where an SS guard shot his father, and his mother and sisters were sent elsewhere; being transferred with his brother to Mauthausen, where they volunteered as carpenters until they were sent to Melk; digging tunnels and moving machinery for several months at Melk with his brother; going on a barge to Linz and then going on a death march to Ebensee; his liberation by American forces on May 5, 1945; walking to Salzburg with his brother but deciding to go to Palestine through Italy; and remaining and working in Italy until he immigrated to the United States in 1950.

    Oral history interview with Carol Stern Steinhardt

    Oral history interview with Carol Stern Steinhardt

    Oral History

    Carola Stern Steinhardt, born on March 8, 1925 in Nieder Ohmen, Germany, describes losing her non-Jewish friends after 1933; her experiences during Kristallnacht; attending a boarding school in Bad Nauheim until the Gestapo stormed it and harassed students; her father’s deportation to Buchenwald; her mother’s and sister’s arrival in Bad Nauheim; going to Berlin to do hard labor at an airplane factory until her deportation to Auschwitz in March 1943; her selection to be a camp “beautician,” which involved cutting the hair off of incoming prisoners; reuniting with her sister in August 1944 and learning that her parents had died; going on a march to Ravensbrück in January 1945; staying in Ravensbrück for four weeks until having to march to Malchow, where she worked in the camp kitchen; her liberation by American forces in May 1945; her internment in the Kammer displaced persons camp in Austria; and immigrating to the United States in July 1946 on an army transport.

    Oral history interview with Haim Shmueli

    Oral History

    Haim Shmueli (né Heinz Ruman Shmoll), born in 1935 in was born in 1935 in Usti nad Labem, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic), describes his family and childhood; his mother’s conversion to Judaism, which she renounced when Hitler came to power; moving to Germany in 1938; his father’s involvement in the underground movement; his deportation to Theresienstadt and his memories of the children’s part of the camp; participating in the propaganda movie filmed in Theresienstadt; his liberation from Theresienstadt in 1945; reuniting with his father after the war; and immigrating to Israel with his father in 1949.

    Oral history interview with Itka Zygmuntowicz

    Oral History

    Itka Zygmuntowicz, born April 15, 1926 in Poland (possibly Ciechanów), discusses her family and childhood in Poland before World War II; her experiences with antisemitism before the war; relations between her family and Gentiles in her hometown; her knowledge of politics as a child and involvement in the Zionist movement; the German occupation of her hometown and the restrictions that the Germans imposed on the Jewish population; the confiscation of her family's valuables; a beating that she and her mother suffered at the hands of the Gestapo for not revealing information; her family's deportation to the ghetto in Nové Město in 1941; the liquidation of the ghetto in 1942 and the mass deportation to Auschwitz; her arrival at Auschwitz and her separation from her parents and younger siblings who perished in the camp; finding a friend named Binna in the camp; her forms of spiritual, mental, and physical resistance as a prisoner; her contact with the guards in the camp; her experience sorting the belongings of dead prisoners in the "Kanada" warehouse; a death march in January 1945 to Ravensbrück concentration camp and then a transport to Malchow concentration camp; her liberation during Passover in 1945; recuperating at a hospital in Sweden after the war through the help of the Swedish Red Cross; living in a displaced persons camp in Sweden; leaving the camp with two friends and getting a job; meeting and marrying her husband and the birth of her son in 1948; and her immigration to the United States in 1953.

    Oral history interview with Gertrude Granirer Flor

    Oral History

    Gertrude Granirer Flor, born in 1921 in Chernivtsi, Ukraine, discusses her childhood; the lack of antisemitism she encountered growing up; the Soviet occupation in 1940 and the confiscation of Jewish property; Soviet propaganda and the pressure to inform on others; the arrest and execution of her step-father; involuntary deportations by the Soviets to Siberia, including the deportation of her mother; escaping from a deportation and finding refuge at the conservatory of the Universitatea din Cernauți; meeting and marrying her husband, Sam; the German occupation of Chernivtsi; German restrictions and the establishment of the ghetto in Chernivtsi; the help that the mayor of Chernivtsi extended to the Jewish population; deportation by train to a stone quarry where she and her husband stayed for several weeks; her husband telling the Romanian authorities that he was a dentist, so that they would be transferred to a work detail in a hospital; being liberated by Russian partisans after being in hiding for several days; returning to Chernivtsi and joining the Czech Army; being part of the liberation of Prague, Czechoslovakia (Czech Republic); immigrating to South America with a stopover in the United States on the way; living in Columbia with an uncle on his coffee plantation for six months and then immigrating to the United States; her feelings about her new country and the difficulties she experienced as an immigrant; and how her experiences during the Holocaust have affected her life.

    Oral history interview with Renee Scheuer

    Oral History

    Renee Scheuer, born in 1909 in Vienna, Austria, discusses her childhood; antisemitism in Vienna before World War II; her and her husband’s arrest in November 1938 and the order to leave Austria in three days; traveling to Cologne, Germany and then to Belgium on foot; living in a refugee camp in Antwerp, Belgium; the occupation of Belgium by Germany in 1939 and their attempt to escape to France; returning to Belgium and living in Brussels where they had to wear Star of David badges; receiving a notice to report to a concentration camp; she and her husband going into hiding in Brussels in 1942 and staying in different hiding places until liberation in 1945; the feelings that she had during the events of the Holocaust; the resistance of the Belgian population against the Germans; the fates of her mother and sister; returning to visit Vienna in the 1970s; her immigration to the United States in 1950; and settling in New York City.

    Oral history interview with Bent Melchior

    Oral history interview with Bent Melchior

    Oral History

    Bent Melchoir, born in Denmark, describes growing up with a father who was a rabbi; the ease of relations between Jews and Christians in Denmark; the help that the Danish Christian community gave to the Jewish community to help them escape to Sweden; raising money with his brother to get Jews out of Denmark; the Danish resistance movement; leaving Copenhagen and arriving in Sweden by small boat; returning to Denmark three weeks after liberation; his surprise at the jubilant welcome given by the Danes when the Jews returned; the re-opening of the local synagogue for the fall holidays in 1945; and working on behalf of Soviet Jewry after the war.

    Oral history interview with Reuven Paikowski

    Oral history interview with Reuven Paikowski

    Oral History

    Oral history interview with Renata Laqueur

    Oral history interview with Renata Laqueur

    Oral History

    Renata Laqueur, born on November 3, 1919 in Brzeg, Poland, describes growing up in Amsterdam; never considering herself Jewish and attending a Christian school as a child; the German invasion in 1940 and registering as a Jew; her father’s decision to volunteer for the German Army as a medical research officer; her marriage to Paul Goldschmidt on December 24, 1941; becoming involved in the underground movement with Paul; her arrest on February 18, 1943, when the Gestapo took her to a prison for ten days until her transfer to the Vught transit camp in the Netherlands; her transport to the Westerbork transit camp, from where she was soon released because of her father’s connections; being arrested again in November 1943; her and Paul’s transport to Bergen-Belsen on March 15, 1944; writing a daily diary about her experiences in the camp; her liberation by the Soviet Army on April 23, 1945; recovering from illness in a field hospital outside of Dresden; spending a week in a displaced persons camp near Kassel; returning to Amsterdam on July 26, 1945; and immigrating to the United States through Canada in 1952.

    Oral history interview with Carl Hirsch

    Oral History

    Carl Hirsch, born in 1912, discusses his childhood in Vienna, Austria and Chernivtsi, Ukraine; his schooling in mathematics and engineering in his university studies; his work as a civil engineer and service in the Romanian Army before World War II; his first experiences with antisemitism when Romania occupied Chernivtsi and when he lived in Bucharest; Soviet occupation of Chernivtsi from 1940 to 1941; the deportation of business owners in Chernivtsi to Siberia; the Soviet withdrawal in June 1941 and Jews fleeing with them; the takeover of the town by Germans and Romanians and the persecution of Jews; finding a job with the railway, so he would not be taken for forced labor; the establishment of the ghetto in Chernivtsi; his marriage to Lotte; witnessing deportations from Chernivtsi; the influx of Romanians into Chernivtsi; the return of many Jews who had fled with the Russians; the integration of Chernivtsi into the Soviet Union in 1945; leaving Chernivtsi and living in Romania from 1945 until 1961; and immigrating to the United States in 1962.

    Oral history interview with Lotte Hirsch

    Oral History

    Lotte Hirsch, born in 1918 in Chernivtsi, Ukraine, describes her childhood; her encounters with antisemitism while she attended university; the Soviet occupation of Chernivtsi from 1940 to 1941 and having to stop her university studies and work in a factory; witnessing deportations to Siberia carried out by the Russians; Romanian and German troops taking over Chernivtsi and establishing a ghetto and several restrictions on the Jewish population; hearing about executions carried out by the German and Romanian soldiers; how her fiancé Carl was able to obtain an exemption from deportation because of his profession as an engineer; her marriage to Carl in a civil ceremony in the mayor's office; life under the occupation; witnessing more deportations in 1942; receiving better treatment after a new governor of Bukovina was instated; the return of Carl's cousin from deportation to Transnistria; her liberation by the Russians in 1944; and her immigration to the United States in 1962.

    Oral history interview with Walter Meyer

    Oral history interview with Walter Meyer

    Oral History

    Walter Meyer, born on May 31, 1926 in Kassel, Germany, describes growing up as a Catholic in a diverse religious community in Düsseldorf; his experiences during Kristallnacht; joining the Hitler Youth in 1940 but then deciding to organize another group to oppose the Hitler Youth; his recruitment into a military academy, to which his father did not allow him to go; assisting French prisoners of war in 1943 until the Gestapo caught him and placed him in a Düsseldorf prison; his transfer to a prison near Frankfurt, where he remained until the spring of 1944 when the prison director recommended him for the army; his deportation to Sachsenhausen and then Ravensbrück; escaping from Ravensbrück and hiding with a farmer who lived nearby; returning to Berlin and then Düsseldorf; recovering from tuberculosis after returning home; and immigrating to the United States in 1958.

    Oral history interview with Dora Kramen Dimitro

    Oral history interview with Dora Kramen Dimitro

    Oral History

    Dora Kramen Dimitro, born on January 22, 1922 in Eišiškės, Poland (now Lithuania), describes growing up in an Orthodox Jewish home with her parents and three siblings; attending Hebrew and Polish schools and experiencing antisemitism; the Russian arrival in Eišiškės in 1939; losing their rights as Jewish citizens when the Germans invaded in 1941; the Germans ordering them to assemble at the synagogue, where they were kept for two days and nights before many were taken away and shot; escaping with her boyfriend with the help of a Lithuanian police officer; the murder of most of her family on September 25 and 26, 1941; going to the Radun ghetto, where she met up with her father, sister, and boyfriend and stayed for ten months until they decided to escape because of ghetto liquidation warnings; running into the woods and trading valuables for food and clothing; living in the woods until late 1942 or early 1943 when they moved into the Hrodna ghetto in Belarus because they had heard of its better conditions; the transports from the ghetto two to three months after her arrival; fleeing to the Nacha Forest in Belarus; joining Jewish and Soviet partisans and staying in their underground bunker through the winter; hiding in homes or in the forest until the Russians liberated her in July 1944; returning to Eišiškės but fleeing when a group of Poles attacked the few remaining Jews there; marrying her boyfriend and living in Vilnius and Warsaw before moving to Israel in 1957; immigrating to the United States in March 1959 with her sister's help; and giving birth to a son soon after her arrival in the United States.

    Oral history interview with Herma Barber

    Oral History

    Herma Barber, born in 1921 in Vienna, Austria, discusses her childhood; experiencing antisemitism after the Anschluss in 1938; her and her parents' unsuccessful attempts to immigrate to the United States and their decision to go to Yugoslavia instead; their journey into Yugoslavia by foot; their arrest in Zagreb, Croatia and spending a week in jail; being confined to the town of Samobor after their release from jail; deportation by the Ustaša in 1941 to Mostar, which the Italian military occupied; being moved to Čapljina by the Italians; traveling to Split, Croatia without permission and being arrested and put in jail by the Italians for a week; being moved to Dubrovnik, Croatia, where she worked in a restaurant and also did knitting for a store; not having enough to eat; going to an Italian-run concentration camp in 1943; their escape from the camp to a partisan-controlled area of Yugoslavia; being in the same town as Randolph Churchill during a British diplomatic mission to the partisans in Drvar in 1944; moving constantly with help from partisans; she and her parents escaping separately to Bari, Italy in 1944 and 1945; her life in the refugee camp at Bari and her marriage in 1946; and her parents' immigration to the United States in 1946 and her immigration to the United States in 1949.

    Oral history interview with William Zeck and Belle Mayer Zeck

    Oral history interview with William Zeck and Belle Mayer Zeck

    Oral History

    William Zeck (born on March 3, 1915 in New York City, NY) and Belle Mayer Zeck (born on February 22, 1919 in Port Henry, NY) describe their families and childhoods; Belle's work as a New York lawyer and getting a job working for the General Counsel of the Treasury and working on the Foreign Funds Control Bureau; helping the bureau to enforce the Trading With the Enemy Act, which forbade communication with and transmissions to German occupied countries; working on a book analyzing Yugoslavia’s financial laws and investigating Germany’s external assets in the United States; Belle becoming an unofficial expert on German financial affairs at the Department of the Treasury and attending the commission for the Allied nations to outline the principles of law for prosecution and trial of Europe’s major war criminals; Belle meeting William when they were both preparing for the Nuremberg Trials; the deterioration of Belle's health as she prepared for the trials and having to go home; Belle returning to Nuremberg in 1947 for the start of the trial; going back to work for the Department of the Treasury to organize the reconstruction loans for the United Kingdom, France, and Germany; their friendship with Telford Taylor; and William’s return to the United States after six years.

    Oral history interview with Michel Reynders

    Oral history interview with Michel Reynders

    Oral History

    Michel Reynders, born on June 29, 1930, in Uccle, Belgium, describes his experiences as the nephew of Father Bruno Reynders, who ran a rescue network that saved about 350 Jews; growing up in a tight-knit Catholic family; helping Father Bruno in his efforts to hide Jewish children by coercing local families to take them into their homes; being unaware of antisemitism until the war; helping a young girl who had fled from Fascist Italy; the German occupation and the following food shortages, imposed curfews, censored textbooks, and Jewish transports out of Belgium; beginning to observe the restrictions placed on Jewish neighbors in 1942 and realizing that it was primarily Jews who were being taken for forced labor in Germany; his introduction to the resistance movement around the end of 1942 and serving as an escort and messenger for his uncle's rescue service; initially having no idea that the children his uncle asked him to escort were Jewish or that Father Bruno was secretly hiding them throughout Belgium; eventually understanding what his family was doing and that his uncle's actions were secret and extremely risky; his family's decision to hide several Jews; graduating from medical school in 1959 and immigrating to the United States in 1961; and being named as the Honorary Vice-Consul of Belgium.

    Oral history interview with Marthe Hoffnung Cohn

    Oral history interview with Marthe Hoffnung Cohn

    Oral History

    Marthe Hoffnung Cohn, born on April 13, 1920 in Metz, France, describes her childhood; being forced by the French government to move out of Metz along with all of its other rich families; moving to Poitiers, France, where, in June 1940, Jewish refugees started coming; attending a Red Cross nursing school in Poitiers; escaping with her family to the unoccupied side of France in the summer of 1942; the arrest of her sister Stephanie, who later died in Auschwitz; becoming involved in resistance and rescue operations, which enabled her to get her parents, grandmother, two sisters, and a cousin to the unoccupied zone of France; finishing nursing school in Marseilles; leaving Marseilles for Paris, where she lived with one of her sisters and found a job with a family that did not know she was Jewish; joining the French Army after the liberation of Paris; doing intelligence work for the Army because she could speak German; going undercover as a German nurse and receiving two Croix de Guerre medals, signed by Generals De Lattre and De Gaulle, for her work; going to Vietnam with the French Army after the war; and immigrating to the United States in 1956.

    Oral history interview with Miriam Kabacznik Shulman

    Oral history interview with Miriam Kabacznik Shulman

    Oral History

    Miriam Kabacznik Shulman, born on June 26, 1918, in Eišiškės, Poland (Lithuania), describes her childhood; her father’s death of typhus during World War I and living with her mother and two brothers; the Russian arrival in Eišiškės in September 1939 and the nationalization of her family’s tannery business; the Lithuanian takeover in 1940 followed by the German invasion on June 23, 1941; the German implementation of edicts that restricted and isolated Jews; the murder of most of the town’s Jews by an einsatzgruppen squad between September 25 and 26, 1941; the help their family’s friends and co-workers gave them throughout the war by hiding money and providing information and hiding places; hiding from the Germans from 1941 through 1944, when they were liberated by Russian soldiers; returning to their home in June 1944 to find an elderly couple living there; deciding to allow the couple to stay and inviting about twenty other Jews to live in their home; living through a Polish pogrom in 1944; fleeing to Vilnius the day after the pogrom and never returning to her home; spending the next years of her life in several displaced persons camps; meeting her future husband Norman in an Italian prison; and immigrating with Norman to the United States, where they had two children.

    Oral history interview with Anna Szyller Palarczyk

    Oral history interview with Anna Szyller Palarczyk

    Oral History

    Anna Szyller Palarczyk, born on July 21, 1918 in Kraków, Poland, describes her family; studying law in Kraków before World War II; working for the underground organization Armed Struggle Alliance; the arrest of everyone in her underground group in June 1942 and their deportation to Montelupich, where they faced harsh interrogations; her transport on August 17, 1942 to Auschwitz, where she was selected as a cleaning woman for Lauder Kommandant Otto Schmidt; walking to the Birkenau camp and being admitted to the sick-room in Birkenau for flu-like symptoms; her experiences in camp with having little food and seeing dead bodies lying around her; the women guards, including Margot Drexler (Dreschel); Katya Singer, who was from Mariková, Slovakia and was appointed as a Raportschreiberin (assistant to the guards) and her activities in the camp; making friends in the camp, which helped her to survive emotionally; the roll calls and selections she went through; the black market in Auschwitz; the Red Cross sending packages to Jewish women in the camps; concerts that were played sometimes in the camps; discovering the fates of her family and friends after the war; and seeing the Russian Army unite with the American Army during liberation.

    Oral history interview with Steven Galezewski

    Oral history interview with Steven Galezewski

    Oral History

    Steven Galezewski, born on May 11, 1923 in Inowroclaw, Poland, describes his childhood; joining the Polish underground in Mińsk Mazowiecki, Poland; recalling that, in 1940, the Nazis ordered all the Jews to wear an armband with the Star of David; the relocation of his community into the Mińsk ghetto at the end of 1940; the liquidation of the ghetto on August 21, 1942 and the survival of only 282 tradesmen who were still useful to the Nazi war effort; participating in underground activities, which included blowing up buildings or means of transportation; his resistance unit being sent under Soviet command; being stationed in Lublin, Poland; providing security for the public hanging of five SS officers in Majdanek in 1944; remaining in Soviet hands from March to July 1945; being perceived by the Soviet Union as a potentially subversive element supporting the Polish government-in-exile and then receiving a prison sentence from the Soviets; his transport to Siberia, where Polish guerrillas freed him; escaping into the American zone; joining the Polish Army in Italy but returning from Italy in 1947 and joining the British Army; immigrating to the United States in February 1951; and joining the US Army in 1956.

    Oral history interview with George Havas

    Oral history interview with George Havas

    Oral History

    George Havas, born in 1929 in Mukacheve, Czechoslovakia (now Ukraine), describes the Hungarian takeover of his town after the Germans took the Sudetenland; his father no longer being allowed to practice medicine; the German takeover of Mukacheve in March 1944; his transport to Auschwitz on May 15, 1944; learning after the war that his father had died in the Sonderkommando uprising in Auschwitz; being transferred to Mauthausen and then to Ebensee, where he stayed for one year until liberation; working in the tunnels at Ebensee, where he was able to make contacts and bring back news; the death of his brother and several of his friends in Ebensee; his liberation on May 6, 1945 and leaving for Prague on June 7; and immigrating to the United States in 1947.

    Oral history interview with Maria Rosenbloom

    Oral history interview with Maria Rosenbloom

    Oral History

    Maria Rosenbloom, born on December 26, 1918 in Kolomyia, Poland (Ukraine), describes her Orthodox Jewish family; learning the violin and playing it every weekend in the Hatikva before the war; feeling increased antisemitic sentiments and fleeing with her family into the Carpathian Mountains; attending a special gymnasium for girls in Poland; starting university in 1936 in Lvov, Poland (L'viv, Ukraine) and never being allowed to sit down because she was Jewish; vacationing with a boyfriend in the Carpathian Mountains until the Soviet invasion on September 1, 1939; getting married in 1940; the Soviets taking away her father’s store because of nationalization policies; opening a pharmacy with her husband in 1940 in a small town called Glen-na-novaria [phonetic] and being pestered by the Russians for condoms; the Nazi invasion on June 21, 1941 and registering with the troops; contracting pneumonia and being treated with leeches; moving into the ghetto after Passover in 1942; working in the ghetto soup kitchen; escaping from the ghetto on Christmas in 1942 and going to live with her friend Blancka; discovering the fates of her family during the war and finding a job in a German hospital; taking a train to Warsaw, Poland in April 1943 and hearing rumors about what was happening to the Jews; living in fear that she would be caught because of her prominent Jewish features; joining the resistance movement; the chaos of the Warsaw uprising in 1944; having to join a Hitler parade in 1944 in an attempt to fit in; taking a train to Heidelberg, Germany hoping to reunite with Blancka; the German surrender of Heidelberg to the Americans and deciding to learn English; working for the US Army and then the Joint Distribution Committee; immigrating to the United States in September 1947; and becoming a social worker.

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