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Oral history interview with Anthony Chudzik

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 2015.20.1 | RG Number: RG-50.030.0785

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    Oral history interview with Anthony Chudzik
    Transcript
    This is a United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    interview with Mr. Anthony Chudzik on January 24, 2015
    in Westchester, Illinois.
    Thank you very much, Mr Chudzik, for agreeing
    to speak with us today to share your story,
    to share your experiences.
    I'd like to start the interview at the very beginning.
    Before we go into the war years, I'd
    like to get a sense of what your life was like before the war,
    before it all started.
    So I'll start with the most basic questions.
    Could you tell me the date you were born?
    I was born on April 27, 1927 at the place called
    Krolewiec in central Poland.
    That's near Lezajsk.
    Is Lezajsk a town or a district?
    Town.
    And Krolewiec, was that a town or a village?
    Krolewiec was a small village.
    It was a small village.
    And you're saying in central Poland?
    Yes.
    So was this West of Warsaw?
    It was Southeast.
    It would have been Southeast.
    Southeast of Warsaw.
    OK.
    So was it in the Eastern part of Poland
    even though it was in the middle?
    No.
    As I say, in the central part of Poland.
    But then in 1932, my family moved to Eastern Poland,
    which was Kresy Wschodnie.
    The district was Tarnopol.
    Tarnopol.
    OK.
    OK.
    This is the Eastern part.
    Which was then overrun by Russians.
    OK.
    We'll come to that.
    Thank you.
    Let's stay with Krolewiec.
    Since you moved in 1932, you were only a young boy then.
    But do you have any memories of Krolewiec at all?
    Yes, I have pretty good memories.
    It was a fairly well organized village, very new,
    as a matter of fact.
    And it was close to a village of importance, was Wola Zarczycka.
    Wola Zarczycka?
    Yes.
    And why was that village important?
    Because all the homes were pretty new.
    It was a new village.
    And as I remember, houses were pretty nice
    for that period of time.
    A lot of them were brick with large lots.
    Buildings were quite new.
    What was the economy of Krolewiec?
    What did people make their living from?
    I really don't know--
    What did your family make their living--
    My father was a builder.
    So he used to build homes and also larger objects,
    like school, or even he helped to build or renovate
    a church, a village church.
    I see.
    And other people are probably just maybe working in the forest
    because there was a forest nearby.
    So in timber.
    Was it an agricultural place?
    Were there many farmers?
    Yes, mostly agricultural.
    Yes.
    OK.
    And do you remember the house that you lived in
    or the place you lived in in Krolewiec?
    Yes, I have some memory of the house.
    It was frame house, wood frame.
    Was it also new?
    Yes, it was fairly new.
    And it had other buildings for the animals.
    Farm animals were kept in there.
    And also the ones where they kept the grain.
    So you had a barn and a stable?
    You had a barn for--
    Yes, there was a stable.
    And as a matter of fact, the stable was a brick building.
    That's pretty unusual.
    Yes.
    And I remember there were a special facilities
    for the animals where everything was run down.
    And I mean it was pretty clean.
    Oh, you mean where you could wash down
    the dirt from the animals?
    Yes.
    Yes, it was a concrete floor.
    And of course, there was also a lot of straw on it.
    But underneath, there was a concrete floor with gutters.
    So you could wash out--
    wash the area where the animals were living.
    And, of course, there was a separate place for horses
    also because we had cows and horses.
    Did you have any other animals besides cows and horses?
    Well, I had a nice dog, a German shepherd.
    It was called Rex.
    Oh, Rex?
    Yes.
    That's such a universal name for a German shepherd.
    Well, yeah, it was--
    The King.
    --a very good, very intelligent dog.
    Yeah.
    Did your father build this place too since he was a builder?
    No, it was already there because when
    he left his village where he was born, he moved into this--
    it was called a colony really.
    It was a colony.
    Colony.
    Kolonia in Polish.
    But it was a straight street, a very straight street.
    And houses on both sides of the street.
    And there was a church.
    There was a blacksmith there who was very busy all the time.
    I spent some time watching how they were putting shoes
    on the horses.
    It was interesting to watch.
    Yeah.
    For a little kid.
    And then there was a carpenter.
    There was a big place where the owner was the carpenter.
    He built furniture and all sorts of things.
    So that's about all I can recollect.
    Well, that's a lot.
    That's a lot.
    Yes, and I remember there was a pond
    and at the end of this colony.
    I spent some times catching the frogs in the pond.
    Did your family have land near the house?
    You kept farm animals.
    You kept cows and horses.
    Yes.
    And what were they used for?
    The cows, I can imagine for milk.
    Well, the horses were used to work on the farm.
    So in other words, you lived on a farm.
    On a farm.
    No, the farm was attached--
    or the house was built on the farm
    because every owner had a lot behind the house let's say,
    a lot of area where they would raise
    grain and cabbage and potatoes.
    You know, one of the reasons I focus on this
    is because it is in some ways unusual for people to--
    it doesn't sound like you lived in the middle
    of an agricultural place insofar as you had a street,
    you had both houses on the side of the street.
    And it sounds almost like a small residential area but not
    a place that's a farm area.
    Yes, some of those habitants, or the people who lived there,
    were of German extraction.
    Oh, really?
    Yes.
    So it was even referred to like a German colony.
    Really?
    Yes, because there were Polish people and some
    German people were living in there.
    So the buildings I can recall were brick buildings
    and pretty substantial.
    They're not dilapidated or anything like that.
    I think it was a fairly new colony.
    OK.
    Let's turn now a little bit to your family.
    Did you have brothers and sisters?
    Yes, there were four of us.
    Two sisters-- four brothers and two sisters.
    So can you tell me their names?
    The oldest was Jozef.
    Then, Franciszek, Roman, and there was Maria, Stanislawa,
    and I was the last, Anthony.
    So you were the youngest child?
    The youngest child.
    And the difference between them were 17 years.
    My oldest brother was born in 1910.
    And I was born in 1927.
    So the difference was 17 years, over 17 years.
    I see.
    So you--
    --the family.
    And I was the last one.
    You were the baby.
    Baby, yeah.
    Were you the favorite?
    I don't know.
    Now, you mentioned that your father
    had come from someplace else, the village where he was born.
    Yes.
    Does that mean that everybody in Krolewiec
    came from someplace else because it was a new colony?
    Most of people probably came from different areas,
    from around the villages, because I
    think it was a fairly new settlement,
    let's say, like outside of this larger village, Wola Zarczycka.
    I see.
    But it had its own name, Krolewiec.
    But right now, when I look at the maps and everything,
    it's just Wola Zarczycka.
    Wola Zarczycka.
    Yeah, which is quite a large village now.
    Yeah, maybe it just expanded and absorbed it.
    Expanded a lot, yes.
    Expanded.
    OK.
    Where had your father come from?
    What was his birth town--
    hometown?
    He was born in Czarna, near Lancut.
    Lancut is a city.
    It was probably about 10,000 inhabitants.
    And it was known because there was a castle owned
    by the Potockis family, which in Polish history,
    Potocki is a very well known--
    Were they nobility?
    --name.
    Were they nobility?
    Nobility, yes.
    I see.
    And was your mother from the same place?
    Yes, not from the same village but from the same district.
    Maybe seven kilometers or like five miles area, the radius,
    radius.
    OK.
    Now, I didn't ask earlier.
    What was your father's first name and your mother's
    first name and maiden name?
    My father's name was Jakub and mother
    was Karolina, maiden name Walat.
    Walat, OK.
    Walat, yes.
    So part of her family was also lived in the same place.
    My uncle lived in the same place.
    You mean in Krolewiec?
    In Krolewiec?
    Yes, yes.
    But I'm talking about the early life
    because in 1932, my father bought some land
    in the eastern part of Poland because there were huge farm
    farms owned by counts, hrabias in Polish,
    and they were dividing the land for purchase.
    And a lot of people then purchased this land.
    So we moved from that original area
    into the eastern part of Poland.
    And that's where most of my youth--
    of course, that wasn't long because from '32 to 1940 when we
    were deported to Russia, it's what--
    only eight years.
    But that's where I spent my youth up to the age of 13
    OK.
    We'll come to that.
    Now, I just want to do a bit of comparison.
    Your father owned the land in Krolewiec?
    Did he own it?
    He owned the land and buildings, yes.
    He was a builder by profession, but he also owned a little farm.
    All right.
    How many hectares was the farm?
    Four.
    Four hectares.
    Four hectares including the orchard,
    which was right by our house in the back of the--
    the lots were very wide.
    Yeah.
    Well, four hectares is--
    it's maybe small for a farm, but it's
    an awful big area for a lot of land, for a piece of land.
    Yes, I think it was just average.
    Four or five hectares.
    Could you feed a family from the four or five hectares?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes.
    So how many hectares did he buy in Eastern Poland?
    Seven.
    He bought seven hectares because it
    was called folwark, which is like a large farm owned
    by a count.
    And they were dividing the land after the war.
    It was government program--
    Land reform.
    --to break up these large--
    Estates.
    --ownerships.
    So people were able to buy some.
    People who had some contribution in obtaining the independence
    of Poland were given land.
    But my father did not get.
    He bought it.
    He bought it.
    He bought it, yes.
    He was a bricklayer and a builder.
    OK.
    Tell me this.
    Seven hectares compared to four is not that much more.
    I mean it is double.
    But he moved his family across Poland for that.
    What was the motivation?
    Because it was seven hectares rather than four?
    First of all, the land there was much better in the Eastern part
    because it part of the Ukraine, which was--
    it was called the feeding area for Europe.
    It was the breadbasket of Europe.
    Breadbasket for Europe.
    And I don't know why he didn't buy more.
    But actually, that was it.
    But as I said, farming was part time
    actually because his main income was from--
    Construction.
    --being a builder.
    Yeah.
    So did he build--
    was there already a house on that land
    when you moved there or did he build it?
    What did that place look like?
    Well, that was another example where
    the land was being divided because it was owned by hrabia,
    which is count Szlosek.
    Szlosek.
    Yes, he owned a huge amount of land.
    And people were buying like--
    I remember seven new possessions started on that land
    where he sold out.
    OK.
    So seven parcels of land?
    Seven parcels from this original--
    Estate.
    --big land.
    So some bought more.
    And others, you know-- but they were,
    again, fairly new subdivision because there
    was a village, an old ancient village.
    And then this new area was built on the land that was subdivided.
    OK.
    And paint me a picture with words of what this place looked
    like when you were growing up.
    Did it also have one street with brick houses on each side?
    No, it was more like scattered.
    There was small streets.
    Could you see your neighbors from your own house?
    Yes, we could see neighbors.
    As a matter of fact, we were close to four families.
    OK.
    And were the--
    --four families all around and just connected with the road
    and then little drive-ins.
    Did your father build the house you lived in there?
    I don't think so.
    No.
    No, I remember the house.
    Tell me about the house.
    It was rectangular with two large rooms and two smaller
    rooms, which was a kitchen and like a entrance,
    a pretty big entrance with an attic.
    So the whole family lived in the rectangular house
    in the four rooms?
    In the rectangular house, yes.
    There were two big bedrooms, let's say,
    for the father and mother.
    And then for the children, there was this other room.
    And we lived, sisters and brothers.
    But by that time, my oldest brothers were already gone.
    He was an editor of a newspaper in the city of Rowne.
    So he didn't live with us.
    He only came for visiting.
    And then other brothers who had their own families.
    So that was only five of us, the parents and two sisters
    and I that lived in that house.
    I see.
    So the three other brothers had already left?
    Your older brothers?
    Yes, all brothers had their own families and--
    Did they also move to Eastern Poland?
    Yes, yes.
    We all moved together, let's say.
    But my oldest brother didn't marry at that time.
    And then the second brother, Franciszek,
    married and had his own house and worked in a different city.
    He moved away from the home.
    What city did he live in?
    Zloczow.
    Zloczow.
    Zloczow.
    He was a railroad worker.
    He worked on the railroad.
    And the oldest brother, like I said,
    he was an editor of the newspaper.
    And then Roman was in school yet.
    And after he finished school, he got married very early.
    He was only 20 years old when he married.
    And they moved away and had their own house.
    Was your father--
    Did he finish high school?
    No, he did not finish high school.
    As a matter of fact, he only had like four years
    of primary school.
    And your mother?
    Oh, mother was just taking care of the house and family.
    She never worked.
    Well, I would say that she worked a lot.
    Well, she worked at house, in the home.
    But she never--
    She never had a paid job.
    --brought in the income or something like that.
    Your older brother who was the editor of the newspaper
    in Rowne, you said?
    Rowne.
    Rowne.
    Rowne.
    Rowne is where?
    The Eastern part, very close to the Russian border.
    Russian or Ukrainian?
    No, Russian.
    Russian
    At that time.
    OK.
    Soviet or--
    Before the war.
    I'm talking this is before the war.
    Before World War Two or World War One?
    Before World War Two, yes.
    This period that we are talking about
    is between the two wars, First World War and the Second World
    War.
    So, let's frame from 1920 to 1940.
    But excuse me.
    The reason why I am being more precise
    is wasn't that the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic
    or was it the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic?
    Was it the Soviet border?
    It was Soviet, yes.
    So Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    The Ukrainian area or--
    There was no Ukraine.
    There was no Ukraine at that time.
    Ukraine was never a state.
    It was just an area--
    Got it.
    Got it.
    --that was within Polish borders.
    And some were in the Russian borders.
    I got it now.
    Thank you.
    Thank you.
    I got it.
    But it also then was close to where your family lived?
    That is, Rowne was closer to the village
    where you eventually settled.
    Tell me again the name of that village near town Tarnopol
    where you lived from '32.
    I forgot the name.
    Oh, it was Palikrowy.
    Palikrowy.
    Palikrowy, near Podkamien.
    Near Podkamien.
    They're all on a map.
    Podkamien was a pretty well-known city
    because of abbey.
    Dominican abbey, which was famous for that whole area.
    There were pilgrimages.
    And people would come to this abbey
    because they said there was a picture
    of our lady of the rosary.
    And Podkamien-- the abbey was on a hill
    well-known for that time and that area.
    Now, in this new place that you lived,
    were there are also German settlers there as well?
    No, no, no.
    This is Eastern part of Poland.
    There were Ukrainians and Russian people mostly.
    Ukrainian and Russian.
    Were there any Jewish people?
    Oh, yeah, there was a lot of Jewish people.
    They were busy with commercial.
    They owned businesses, stores, and all sorts of things
    like that.
    So about how large in total was the--
    now, the village you lived in was
    close to Podkamien or part of it?
    Very, very close.
    Three kilometers, which is like two miles--
    two miles from Podkamien was the village of Palikrowy.
    And that's where that gentleman Szlosek had his lands
    and then sold off to--
    seven families lived in that area.
    Part of them-- my family, like my uncle bought some property.
    And then my married aunt, which was another family, bought some.
    And the rest-- there were three families that my--
    Were your family.
    --my family.
    Further, you know, like uncle and aunt.
    So in addition to your own nuclear family,
    you had an extended family in this new place
    that everybody had moved to?
    In this place.
    But in addition, there was four other families too.
    Yeah, yeah.
    That sounds like it must have been
    nice to have a larger family even though you had moved,
    that you have aunts and uncles and cousins.
    Yes, that's right.
    They came from the same village of Krolewiec
    when they decided to buy this land
    in the eastern part of Poland.
    Tell me-- did your father and mother--
    I mean that your brother, your oldest brother,
    ended up being an editor of a newspaper speaks
    to that he probably went and had more schooling
    than your father had.
    Oh, yes.
    They all had a good education because they
    were sent to schools in Krakow, which is--
    Oh, really?
    Yes.
    The oldest and the third in line studied at the Krakow
    higher education--
    high school.
    High school.
    Yes.
    And Franciszek, who was the second,
    he was more into carpentry.
    So he was a good carpenter, and he didn't want to study.
    He was working as a carpenter.
    Did your parents have a value for education for the children?
    Did they want--
    Absolutely.
    Yes.
    They both stressed that you must have education.
    They stressed it.
    And that's why they made sure that they did get education
    if they wanted to.
    But like I said, Franciszek wasn't much interested.
    Excuse me.
    I think-- I still have a cane that my brother made.
    Oh, really?
    I have a cane here.
    We'll show it.
    We'll film it later.
    All right.
    Now, your sisters, did they also go to school?
    Yes.
    They finished primary-- seven years.
    Seven years.
    Seven years.
    I mean, they didn't go to higher school but seven years.
    Two of them were like junior college I think--
    There were other--
    --because normal education in Poland was six years.
    And then like seven or eight was--
    eight was the living thing.
    And then you could go higher to--
    it's called gymnasium, gimnazjum.
    Gimnazjum, gymnasium.
    I don't know why.
    But gimnazjum was-- it was six years, then two, and two,
    two in the gymnasium and two in liceum, which was high school.
    OK.
    So gimnazjum was-- it was two years
    gimnazjum, two years liceum.
    And that kind of was the equivalent of a high school.
    High school.
    After that, you could go to University.
    I see.
    And were they public schools until the eighth year?
    Was it public education?
    Yes, it was public education.
    Compulsory.
    Mandatory.
    And then beyond that, was it still--
    Beyond that, you could just send--
    So then it was tuition.
    --send your children to higher education.
    OK.
    Then it was that you had to pay in other words.
    Yes.
    OK.
    You mentioned the Dominican abbey that was in--
    Podkamien.
    Podkamien.
    Was your family very religious as well?
    Was your family Religious
    Oh, yes, yes, yes.
    Both parents were religious, especially my mother.
    She brought us up in a Catholic religion.
    And yes, I attended mass every day.
    Every day even?
    Every day because I served at the mass.
    You were an altar boy.
    I was an altar boy all the time.
    So I had to walk two miles--
    yes, two miles to serve at the mass.
    And was this in the morning?
    In the morning, yes, before going to school.
    That's quite a schedule.
    It was quite busy.
    Quite a busy schedule.
    Tell me a little bit about home life
    and I'd say maybe the atmosphere in your home.
    Well, father was usually busy with building.
    Like he was building homes.
    And in addition, he built the community center,
    a large community center, similar,
    with a stage and seating like a small theater.
    And I remember when they finished that-- of course, he
    wasn't himself.
    He had help.
    And even the city government, or the village government,
    was involved in it because they wanted this.
    So they built a community center.
    And for the opening for this community center,
    they bought a huge radio console.
    It was maybe five feet long and one of those with the record
    player and things like that.
    It was very new at that time.
    So for the opening of this community center,
    they purchased this thing.
    And they had an opening.
    So everybody from the village came.
    And it was a huge, huge event.
    And a celebration.
    Celebration.
    They put this radio on on a stage.
    And of course, you could listen to any programs you wanted.
    But I don't know what was the program then, probably
    some music or whatever.
    But I remember that day when everybody came--
    And celebrated.
    --and celebrated.
    This was a big, big day for the village.
    And does that mean that people didn't have their own radios?
    Very rare.
    Very rare.
    Or if they had, it was a crystal radio.
    And I remember operating this crystal where you had a needle.
    And there was a little silicon piece.
    And you had to dig into this to--
    Hear anything
    --to get some radio station.
    No.
    No knobs.
    Nothing at that time.
    At least that's what I remember for myself.
    But this console already had everything, knobs and lights
    inside with scale.
    So it was different.
    But people normally didn't have that.
    I mean some people had small radios.
    But the crystal kind.
    And I did have a radio with phones.
    And so you--
    No speakers.
    There were no speakers.
    Oh, really?
    Well--
    At that time?
    --I'm talking about my experience.
    I don't know--
    That's what all we want is your experience.
    Yes, yes.
    So did the radio in the community center
    become a source of information?
    It was also information and entertainment.
    Because there was music, people, they had dances and everything
    for this music that came through this console.
    Yeah.
    So young people were very happy to have
    that opportunity for a dance and meet girls and boys and--
    It's fun.
    There was fights over girls.
    Yeah.
    There was an incident when one guy was stabbed.
    Really?
    Yes, over a girl.
    It's things that come to my mind, yeah.
    No details, but there was such a thing.
    How large was the village?
    How many people, you would say?
    Oh, the village was about 300 people altogether.
    So let's say divided by four or five, maybe 60, 60 families.
    Mm-hmm.
    And were all of them Polish?
    No, no, no, not all of them.
    Mostly, the local people were like Ukrainians,
    or we call them Russki.
    We didn't--
    Distinguish.
    --distinguish a Russki.
    That's Russian.
    But basically, they were Ukrainians.
    OK.
    Did they have their own church?
    Yes, they had the [POLISH],, which is a Orthodox church.
    And school was common.
    We all went to the same school.
    And we had a lesson in Ukrainian or Russian.
    Oh, you did?
    It wasn't pure Russian.
    It was like English--
    they call it something simple, plain.
    OK.
    OK.
    Basic.
    Basic, yes.
    Basic Russian.
    So at school, we had to have one hour of this language.
    Even though-- this was still an independent Poland?
    Yes, it was independent Poland.
    But the territory, the eastern territory
    was mainly inhabited by people of Russian descent
    or Byelorussians.
    Yes.
    Now it's Byelorussians, Ukrainians.
    I see.
    I see.
    Were there also Jewish people in the community of 300?
    Yes, yes, Jewish people were businessmen.
    They owned businesses, stores, lawyers, doctors.
    They were all Jewish.
    Did you have a doctor?
    Did your family go to a doctor?
    Yes, yes.
    There was a doctor.
    And I had an opportunity or a necessity to use their services
    because I climb--
    I was climbing the stairs to go to the attic,
    and I fell, and I lost teeth.
    Ah.
    Still some teeth missing.
    So the doctor had to--
    and then dentist had to do something.
    But I was all blood, and everything was--
    I fell like seven feet.
    That's a lot.
    Yes, from the ceiling all the way to the bottom.
    That's a lot.
    But otherwise, there was a doctor in the village.
    Yes, people used to go to the doctor on--
    somebody broke a hand or arm or something like that.
    So, I even remember his name.
    He was called-- his name was Krompiec.
    Krompiec?
    Krompiec.
    He used to fix--
    basically it was accidents where they broke a leg or a arm.
    So he would set the arm or the leg and--
    Yes, he was--
    --he'd take care of these things.
    That's the kind-- but he was also for other ailments.
    But I don't know.
    Not many people used the doctors.
    Basically, mothers took care of everything.
    Yeah.
    The unpaid mothers.
    [CHUCKLING]
    Were there Jewish children also in school?
    No, there were weren't.
    In the village, there weren't any Jews.
    They came from Podkamién, from a little town.
    I see.
    I see.
    But they would come, horse-driven vehicles,
    and brought stuff on it.
    Or there was a store in the village.
    But it was owned by a local person of Polish--
    Descent.
    --ethnicity.
    But they would bring stuff to the store.
    So you mean traders?
    Like traveling traders would come?
    Traveling, or suppliers.
    I was-- maybe call it a supplier.
    There was a store owned by a local guy,
    and they would bring stuff into this store.
    Everything you could buy.
    Basically, I was interested in candies, candies or--
    but you could buy school supplies, pencils, notebooks.
    It was just a small store for--
    with shoelaces and things like that.
    So Podkamién, about how large was it population-wise?
    Podkamién was about 10,000.
    Ah, so your village was about 300--
    three miles away from a place of 10,000 people.
    Yes.
    So you're close to a town.
    Really, it's a town, a large town.
    But because they must have then had a railway station?
    Did Podkamién have a railway station?
    No.
    No?
    In Podkamién, there was no railway station.
    The closest was 24 kilometers, was Brody.
    Brody.
    I see.
    That was closest where there was a station.
    But Podkamién had the hospital and the court.
    OK.
    Like a local court.
    Mm-hmm.
    Did anybody-- you mentioned that when some of the merchants
    would come by, they'd come by in horse-driven wagons.
    Did anybody have a car either in your village,
    or was it common to have a vehicle?
    Oh, yes.
    I mean, almost everybody-- all the owners had some kind
    of vehicle--
    I mean a car.
    --to drive around.
    An automobile?
    No, no, no.
    That's what I was after.
    No automobiles.
    No, no.
    So nobody had an automobile.
    No, nobody had an automobile in the village.
    But there was a expressway--
    no, not expressway.
    But it was a well-built road between, let's say,
    Brody, Podkamién, and then Zolochiv.
    But it was like outside of the village.
    So there were automobiles traveling on that road.
    You could see them.
    Was it asphalt?
    Was the road asphalt?
    Not really asphalt, but it was hard, hard gravel, but well--
    Well packed.
    --maintained.
    Packed, yes.
    But not tar, no.
    Not asphalt. And one other thing.
    There was a railroad going--
    railroad tracks were going about two miles from the city.
    And there was a very fast short short--
    maybe two carriages, and it was called Luxtorpeda.
    Luks torpedo?
    The luxury torpedo?
    A very fast moving vehicle with two wagons.
    Really?
    And it was-- everybody run--
    if we knew that it was like 3 o'clock, it would be passing.
    Everybody run towards to be close to it, to watch it.
    And it's a woom.
    It just passed real fast.
    And I was one of those that--
    Would run?
    --liked to watch it.
    Watch it, yes.
    But it was outside of the village, but it was tracks.
    So it was on tracks?
    It was on railroad tracks?
    Railroad tracks, yes.
    And there were regular wagon-- no, transport for goods trains.
    OK.
    But this was for passengers, this Luxtorpeda.
    Oh, really?
    I mean, this Luxtorpeda was for passengers.
    So if they wanted to go to a larger city,
    they would go by this way?
    Yes, they would go to Podkamién.
    And from there, they could go somewhere else.
    North or South.
    Brody, Zolochiv, those larger area--
    larger cities.
    Did people talk much about the larger world
    outside of Podkamién and the village and this area?
    Did the events of the 1930s, like Pilsudski's death in '35--
    Yes.
    Was this something that was--
    It was a big event, right.
    Everybody took part in it.
    There was a meeting, of course, and funeral somewhere else.
    But people were following it, following on the radio
    and listening to the radio.
    As much as you remember, was news of events outside Poland
    talked about or reported or discussed,
    such as Hitler came to power in Germany?
    I know that my father used to meet with his neighbors.
    And they had some get-together, let's says,
    get-together at some places.
    So they talked about the politics and things like that.
    But children were--
    I was 13 years old.
    That was at the top of this area because--
    so we weren't-- I don't think we were interested in any--
    No, of course not.
    But I remember getting a newspaper.
    Oh, yeah?
    We were getting a newspaper at the house,
    and my father read the paper every day.
    What was the paper?
    Echo Kresowe.
    Echo Kresowe.
    So echo of--
    Eastern, or the eastern part.
    Did you get the newspaper your brother edited?
    Yeah.
    And what was his newspaper called?
    From?
    From Równe.
    What was his--
    From Równe.
    Yeah.
    What was his newspaper called, your brother's?
    Echo Kresowe.
    Oh, I see.
    So that was the paper.
    That was the paper.
    I see.
    I see.
    I have a picture of my father reading the paper.
    Oh, really?
    I can show you--
    I'd like to see it.
    --later.
    Yeah.
    And so the news in that paper, would it
    contain news of not only Polish events but international events?
    Yes, international events, but mainly
    what was going on on the border with Russia.
    And even at that time, there were some misunderstandings
    on both sides of the border.
    Do you remember any of these incidents--
    No, no.
    --that were reported?
    I don't remember any incidents.
    But I know that people were interested in what was going on
    along the borders because at the time already,
    there were some questions between Russia and Poland.
    OK.
    So there was a bit of nervousness.
    There was a bit of nervousness.
    Oh, yeah, there was.
    Yeah, there was a little.
    OK.
    Tell me, at home, who were you closest to?
    Of your family, who was the person you were closest to?
    Well, my older sister.
    Stanislawa?
    Stanislawa.
    And yeah, I used to get in trouble with her all the time.
    Why?
    I was annoying her.
    I was pulling her hair.
    So this is just a small incident,
    but I did something to her.
    I pulled her hair or something then,
    and then she started chasing me.
    So I went into the bedroom and knelt at the bed
    and started saying prayers.
    So I thought she won't touch me.
    That'll save you?
    She won't touch me.
    But no, this didn't help.
    I still got a lot of--
    A whack or two.
    A whack on the--
    Yeah.
    On the back.
    That was about all.
    But otherwise, yeah, we always had something going on
    between us, and not the older sisters
    because she was all right.
    She didn't get too much.
    You didn't annoy her too much.
    No, I didn't get in trouble with her.
    OK.
    What about your parents?
    Were you closer to one parent or the other?
    Well, I was close to my mother because my father was constantly
    away from the house.
    He was very busy.
    All day, he was very busy with his business.
    So just school.
    And I mentioned before we had the cows.
    So I would-- after school, I would take them to the pasture
    and--
    Take care of them?
    --watched them.
    But it wasn't much problem.
    We had a property along a river, a little river that
    run through our possession.
    And they were just at that pasture.
    But you had a lot of duties for a small-- well,
    not a small child but a growing child, if you're an altar boy
    and then you go to school and then afterwards, you
    have the chores with the cows.
    Yes, that's all true, all true.
    And somehow I managed.
    Did your mother--
    I had got-- used to get into trouble, too.
    Because at one time over that river,
    there was an area where village women would
    come to wash their laundry.
    There were special areas prepared, like wooden planks,
    and were--
    I don't know whether you're familiar with the way they
    used to wash their clothes.
    Show me.
    I mean, tell me.
    The had little pallets, and there was water in there,
    very clean, of course.
    And they had raised, like, benches.
    And they would--
    Pound it?
    They would pound their--
    Their clothes.
    --clothes, their clothes, and then dry them.
    So in other words, there was like--
    you sat on a bench, and there is this pallet in front of you,
    a raised pallet.
    Yes.
    And then you have some mechanism, some wooden paddle
    or something?
    Just a little paddle, right.
    A paddle, and you pound the clothes.
    You pound the clothes and rinse--
    Any soap?
    --rinse in the water.
    The water was constantly flowing.
    So it was clean.
    And after they had enough of pounding,
    they with take it out, because there
    were like poles and with a rope between them,
    and they would hang it, hang the--
    And would they use any kind of detergent or soap?
    Yes, there was like a powder.
    But it was probably, I think, when you
    burn something and what's left.
    Ashes.
    Ashes.
    They used to use some ashes from special woods.
    That's--
    And that would clean the clothes?
    Yeah, I think.
    Well, these are things that we don't know anymore.
    I don't know, but that's what they used.
    And then they would hang them.
    Or before they hang, they would put them on.
    I was a very naughty boy.
    So I took some dirt from the street and--
    Throw it in there.
    --throw it in there because this thing for washing,
    this was under the bridge.
    The road was above, river underneath.
    And there were these benches specially built for the women
    to wash their clothes in.
    And then they would put up, and I took some dirt from the road
    and threw it on.
    And then--
    Would they catch you?
    --one lady started running after me.
    It was about two kilometers to the forest or a little forest.
    So I barely reached that thing while she was still
    running after me.
    But I hid in the bushes and--
    She didn't find you.
    And then I had to avoid her as much as I could
    because I knew that--
    She could recognize you.
    --I earned some punishment.
    [LAUGHS]
    But that's just things that I can--
    Yeah, the things you start remembering.
    Yeah.
    And did she recognize you then?
    Oh, of course, we knew each other.
    Yeah.
    But it was just--
    I don't know.
    You were a kid.
    Bad boy.
    Bad boy.
    Very bad boy.
    Well, no, generally, I had a very good opinion because I
    was a good student at school.
    Did you have a favorite subject?
    Geography.
    Geography, math.
    And I always liked math, even here.
    After I studied at the college and things,
    I was quite good at math.
    And I was able to tutor--
    Others.
    --others, yeah.
    Even in the later days when I went to college,
    I tutored in math.
    Got it.
    Now that's--
    And was history taught at school?
    Yes.
    History, geography, drawings.
    We had drawings, basic drawings.
    Some people had talents for drawing animals and things
    like that, so they were recognized.
    And the teacher would help to develop--
    That talent.
    Yeah.
    Yes.
    It sounds like actually a very nice life.
    Yes.
    Sorry.
    It's OK.
    I'm emotionally--
    Cut a little bit.
    Because I think that--
    Oh, no, don't touch.
    Hang on a minute.
    There were opportunities for everybody.
    Mm-hmm.
    Yes.
    That was-- yeah.
    School was good.
    Teachers were very nice.
    And opportunity for everybody.
    Let's--
    Somebody with a talent and ability or desire could go high.
    At the time, the government was very conscientious
    and tried to help right after Poland regained independence
    in 1918.
    The government used to be very conscientious
    and that they did everything that they
    could to help farmers, professionals to get on,
    get ahead.
    And those 20 years between 1918 and 1940
    or '39 when war started, it was a very intensive development.
    I can vouch for that, remember that.
    Government was very helpful.
    They were giving loans for the farmers to develop,
    to buy equipment.
    We already had mechanized machinery
    to sow instead of sowing like these from about a pouch.
    Then you had machines to--
    To sow the--
    --to sow the grain and pick up potatoes.
    There were machines that you pick up the potatoes.
    I enjoyed--
    It was a change, yeah.
    I enjoyed doing all those things and help.
    And I was very interested.
    We had our own machinery at home to cut the--
    to burn the hay together, bale--
    Oh, so put it--
    yes, bale the hay.
    Yes, baling machinery to wrap up things like that.
    It was very interesting, but not long enough.
    Poland didn't have enough time between the wars.
    So let's talk a little bit now about how
    things start to change.
    You're born in 1927.
    Yeah.
    And in 1938, you're 11.
    In 1939, you're 12.
    Yes.
    Can you remember--
    I'm talking about 1940, which was almost 13.
    Almost 13.
    Because I born in April, and in February,
    we were deported from that area by the Russians to Siberia.
    Before we get there, I want to talk about all
    of the events that led up to that.
    Yeah.
    So do you remember where you were when World War I broke out,
    when Germany invaded Poland?
    Do you remember that time, that day?
    Oh, 1939.
    Yes.
    September 1.
    Yes.
    I think we were probably in school.
    We were at school that time.
    How did you learn that the war started?
    Well, through the radio, radio, and it
    spread real fast through the village.
    What were people talking about?
    They were afraid that--
    first of all, September, let's say, 1 to September 17
    when the Russians came in, it was a very short time.
    So we were afraid that the Germans would come close to us
    because Germany took over the western part of Poland,
    invaded the western part and occupied real fast.
    But they still didn't come to us.
    Did you ever see a German soldier?
    No.
    Never.
    OK.
    No, not at that time.
    I saw them later.
    But no.
    And then on the 17th of September,
    the Russians came into Poland.
    And did you see--
    Invaded the eastern part, completely half of Poland.
    So I remember them coming in on tanks.
    Tell me about that.
    What did you see, and when did you see it?
    Well, first, the village didn't have very good roads.
    They were like dirt roads.
    And they came in tanks.
    So they would raise a lot of dust and everything like that.
    And some people, because the population was mixed,
    some were of Russian descent, let's say, or Ukrainian
    and some Poles.
    So those Russian people would welcome them with flowers,
    and they would throw flowers at the soldiers.
    And they were happy, waving, things like that.
    We were not happy.
    We knew that they are not our friends.
    They are our enemies.
    Was it expected that--
    I mean, did you expect to see Russian soldiers?
    Or was it just something people were waiting to happen?
    No, no, no.
    It was sudden, came in, because there was no like radio programs
    with news on a regular basis.
    So no, we only saw them when they came into the village.
    So it was complete surprise?
    It was a complete surprise.
    And they came on tanks on dirt roads instead of maybe just
    armored cars on tires.
    No, it was horrible.
    It was terrible.
    And we're scared.
    We absolutely-- well, we didn't know what to do.
    But everybody was interested to see what's going on.
    And right away, the local people, those Ukrainians,
    formed like militia.
    Militia?
    OK.
    And they declared themselves friends of the Russians.
    So are these people you actually knew?
    Yes, that we knew.
    We went to--
    They were your neighbors.
    --school together.
    They're our neighbors and my friends that I played with.
    But ethnic background was different.
    So we were scared.
    And it was really bad because we didn't--
    the Ukrainians killed a lot of people then.
    Really?
    When the Russians came in, they take like revenge or something
    like that.
    What would they have been taking revenge for?
    For some personal maybe misunderstandings or quarrels
    or something like that.
    I don't know.
    I didn't have anything against anybody.
    My father was very well liked in the village.
    He was very well liked because he was helpful.
    He was in such a profession that everybody--
    They needed him.
    --needed, right.
    Whatever they needed, he was there to do it.
    And yet, they were very--
    completely turned against us.
    I still can't understand that because I
    think that they lived peacefully until the very end
    when the Russians came in.
    So everybody was friendly and everything else, helpful.
    But when the Russians came in, they already
    put armbands, those local Ukrainians.
    And they started cooperating, collaborating with the Russians.
    But it wasn't wrong because the Russians then arrested
    those people--
    Really?
    OK.
    --who were so friendly towards them.
    They arrested them, and they send them somewhere
    nobody knew them.
    And what had happened with the Polish police?
    I mean, there was Polish police, and then this [POLISH] comes
    and they disarm them?
    Well, they disarmed, and I don't know whether they arrested
    or no or just let go.
    OK.
    But, yeah.
    What about your father's business?
    Was he continuing to work, or did he
    stay at home when all of this was taking place?
    Did life go on?
    No, life went on.
    But it was a very short time, really,
    because September to February--
    and February, we were taken away from there, from our place.
    Did you go to school?
    I was going to school all the time, yes.
    Did school change?
    Did the school--
    Oh, well, yes, yes, because first of all,
    right, they forbid us to say prayers because we used to--
    before lessons started, we used to say short prayers
    in the school.
    But when this took place, when the Russians came in,
    they forbade praying in school.
    So that was the first indication that--
    It's different.
    But we still try to say prayers before,
    but privately, let's say.
    The teacher wasn't in this class and never took part.
    Before, teacher would guide us with the prayers.
    But after that, that stopped completely right away.
    Did your teachers change?
    Did the teacher change or the same teachers?
    No, no.
    Teachers didn't-- the teachers remained.
    And they were all fine.
    All the time, they were fine.
    They had to be probably very careful with what they taught.
    But of course, it changed.
    What else changed besides not being able to say prayers
    at the beginning?
    Did the classes change?
    Did the curriculum change?
    No.
    Curriculum continued, continued the same way.
    OK, Even Polish history?
    Until all the way to the time that they deported us.
    So September to February, beginning of February.
    Nothing changed.
    The same teachers and--
    And the same subjects.
    --the same subjects, yes.
    Were there soldiers that--
    did you see soldiers staying in the village?
    Or did they pass through and then left?
    No.
    Some stayed, and they took over the administration, all
    the offices where the trustees, village trustees probably, you
    would call them then.
    So they took over these offices, and nothing substantial to me.
    Nothing substantial took place.
    We carried on with the schooling,
    and we could say prayers and sing Polish songs
    and everything.
    No problem.
    The people who took over, the authorities
    that took over the village sort of administration--
    Yes, administration.
    --they were not local.
    They were from the occupiers.
    Or were they local?
    No, they were-- some were local.
    And they hadn't been arrested.
    At the beginning, when they put those armbands and everything,
    they declared themselves friends,
    and they actually welcomed those local people.
    Welcomed.
    I call local people those that lived there in the village
    before we came in, before my father bought some land there.
    Yeah.
    So they were local people.
    Right.
    So they were very friendly towards Russian
    because they were mostly of Ukrainian.
    They spoke Ukrainian at home.
    And, of course, at school, we had regular classes
    in Russian or Ukrainian.
    But you said they were then arrested.
    So who replaced them?
    You said that some of the Russians
    arrested-- the Soviet army arrested some of these people.
    Yes, they did.
    And then were they replaced in the municipal--
    Replaced with some of those Ukrainians
    who were able or maybe a little more educated
    that could carry on.
    And were these people--
    They took over.
    And Russian soldiers, Russian soldiers in uniforms,
    they are running stuff.
    I guess one of the--
    what I'm trying to get at is after the local Ukrainians, who
    then welcomed the Soviet forces, they're there for a while,
    and then they're arrested.
    The people who eventually started running the village,
    were they local, or were they strangers?
    The ones who were around when--
    No.
    They were both, maybe--
    Both.
    --higher positions were Russians.
    Got it.
    But at the lower level, they were the same people,
    the same people.
    But they were cooperating better.
    Got it.
    And there were soldiers in the streets.
    Yeah, there were some.
    Not a lot, but there were soldiers in the street, yes.
    Yes.
    And did your father continue working?
    Yes, he was working.
    Mm-hmm.
    Carried on.
    How did the atmosphere change?
    OK.
    This was into the winter, September to February.
    So it was right into the winter.
    So everything slowed down in the village.
    Because he's a builder.
    Of course.
    Of course.
    Yeah, slowed down.
    But it went fairly normal, fairly normal.
    OK.
    Life.
    Do you remember how you celebrated Christmas that year?
    Well, yeah, I remember.
    It was very sad, very, very subdued.
    Although at that time, religious was not forbidden,
    and you could still go to church.
    And I carried on the same way.
    You were an altar boy still.
    Yeah, still.
    And the masses were sad and everything.
    People went to church.
    But it was very subdued.
    Yes.
    OK.
    Were there any arrests?
    Were there any arrests at that time?
    Well, there were some arrests right away.
    But later on, things quieted down,
    so there was nobody revolting, let's say, against the authority
    or anything like that.
    There was no reason to.
    Mm-hmm.
    Were there any Polish military units or officers
    or soldiers who had been in the area when the Russians came in?
    No.
    There were no--
    So there was no Polish military presence.
    No military presence, no.
    OK.
    Not organized.
    But my brothers, because--
    they were at war.
    So they were on the front.
    Western?
    Western against Germans.
    So when Russians came into this eastern part of Poland,
    they ceased to exist as soldiers.
    They took their uniforms off and went into civilian.
    And there was--
    Came home?
    No Polish soldiers at that time, no.
    OK.
    So let's go up to February.
    In February, it was dead of winter.
    Yes.
    Tell me what happened.
    Well, early in the morning on the 10th of February,
    I think Saturday, they came in.
    It was still dark outside, maybe 5 o'clock, something.
    We all asleep.
    So they started banging on the doors.
    Open up.
    Open up.
    So I don't know who was the first.
    Father, Mother got up, went to the door, opened the door.
    They came in.
    There were about five Russian soldiers with guns--
    no, rifles, with rifles with bayonets.
    And first of all, they said, do you have any weapon?
    [RUSSIAN] That's in Russian.
    [RUSSIAN]
    [RUSSIAN] Do you have weapons?
    My father says, no, I don't have any weapon, although he did
    have a rifle hidden somewhere.
    But that was useless.
    He didn't even say nothing because he couldn't get to it.
    Or even if he could, he couldn't do anything
    because there's many of them, these Russian soldiers, well
    armed.
    So they say, pack up.
    Start packing up because you are going
    to be taken away from here.
    And says, you do not belong.
    You do not belong to here.
    He says, Father, what?
    This is my land.
    No, it's not yours.
    We are taking over.
    It's no more, no longer it's yours.
    You have nothing.
    Just pack up whatever you can, food and some clothing.
    Because they came with those vehicles, carriages.
    Horse-drawn?
    Horse-drawn carriages, yeah.
    And they said, here, pack up what you want or what you can.
    Take some warm clothing and some food.
    And they were well, like I say, armed.
    You had to obey their others.
    I mean, Mother was resisting.
    Whatever Father and sisters, maybe even I,
    put on this vehicle, she would throw off.
    She was very unreasonable with them.
    She didn't-- she couldn't comprehend this,
    what's going on.
    Why are you taking us away?
    Where are we going?
    We don't know, but you have to move.
    We'll take you away from here.
    So she was throwing things off.
    And the soldiers would put some food,
    let's say, food or clothing back on the vehicle.
    She would throw it back.
    And they threatened her.
    If you will continue like this, we'll shoot you.
    This is what the soldiers said.
    And my brother-in-law started talking to my mother and says,
    you have to do what they tell you to do because otherwise, it
    may end tragically.
    That's what he said.
    So she calmed down.
    And we put some stuff on these carriages,
    and then they drove us away from our home.
    How much time had they given you to do this?
    Oh, maybe hour and a half.
    It was something like that.
    No more than two hours.
    We were on the way.
    But they took us--
    this, I remember.
    I'll tell you why.
    Took us to the local school because there
    was room in the school, classes and everything.
    There was assembly hall.
    So they put all these people together in this school.
    And I remember that I had a violin at home.
    So I sneaked out from the school, went back to our house,
    which wasn't far, maybe half a mile.
    So when I entered the house, the soldiers were already
    cooking eggs and bacon and everything else, smells nice.
    And they're having a good time in our dining room.
    So I took the violin.
    I could have run away somewhere to some neighbors or something
    like that.
    But I didn't.
    I took the violin.
    And I went back to my parents, which were held in that school.
    But I saw this scene where they already having good time
    on the food and everything.
    So imagine, I see--
    really terrible thing to even imagine
    how these people felt, that they have to leave everything behind
    for what?
    Why?
    Why are you taking--
    no compensation, no reason, no nothing.
    Just--
    You never told-- you were never told why you--
    No, you never told.
    He says, this doesn't belong to you anymore.
    State is taking over.
    State means Russia, Soviet Russia.
    The state is taking over your possessions and everything.
    And they forced us out by taking us to the school.
    They kept us there for several hours
    because it was early in the morning.
    But I think by noon, they moved us
    to Podkamién, which is the town, because they had better
    facilities there, larger.
    And they put us in a courtroom, large, big hall
    where normal trials were taking place.
    I want to ask something.
    In the school where they put you, do you recognize--
    were there other people there from the village
    who were also taken?
    Yes, yes, there was.
    My uncle was taken.
    But strange thing, his family was--
    the parents, they had two girls and two sons.
    So these authorities, whoever they were,
    took the father, my uncle with two sons,
    arrested them just like us, but left the mother and the girls
    in the house.
    They left them there, for whatever reason.
    They wanted-- the father and mother wanted to--
    Be together.
    --get together.
    But they didn't allow.
    No, you stay.
    Who decided that?
    I don't know.
    But this is happening.
    I see it right now how it happened.
    So they were deported, this father, my uncle, and my two
    cousins, deported to Russia the same as us.
    But the mother and girls were left behind.
    And they lived there all through the war.
    It makes no sense.
    It makes no sense.
    But this is what happened.
    And my uncle and [INAUDIBLE] were together in Siberia
    with us.
    So tell me, what other neighbors did you recognize?
    Well, there were Ciaglo.
    There was Klak, Klak, K-L-A-T, Klak.
    Klak.
    Kurcaba, which was my aunt husband, my family.
    And they had a daughter and a boy, my cousin, right,
    my aunt son.
    Did you know pretty much everybody
    who was in that school gymnasium?
    We lived on the same--
    like area, the same district.
    Mm-hmm.
    But the village had 300 people.
    Well, that was village.
    The village is here, and this little compound--
    Is there.
    --of seven families--
    Is there.
    --which purchased that land, which that landowner had,
    were here.
    And the people who were in the school area
    only came from the compound or not from the village,
    or from the village, too?
    No, no, nobody from the village.
    I see.
    So it was not even the whole--
    Only these people that came originally
    came from the center of Poland that purchased this land.
    So the soldiers who came into your home,
    you didn't recognize them.
    You didn't know who they were.
    No, they were Russian, Russian soldiers.
    But somehow--
    Never saw them in my life.
    But somebody must have told them that this family
    and this family--
    Yes, yes.
    And, of course, they were these Ukrainian people
    who took administration, this village administration.
    They said, oh, these are the people.
    But everybody knew because we were
    like a newcomer from the central [? foreign. ?]
    So we lived in that area.
    That's a part of Westchester here.
    OK.
    But the village was over there.
    And we were only this compound, seven families.
    And nobody else from that larger village was deported?
    No.
    Nobody.
    Only these people that came several years--
    Before.
    --before and purchased the land and lived there until this
    happened.
    OK.
    Yes.
    And so when you were taken to Podkamién, in that courtroom--
    Yes.
    --were there more people from other places?
    Yes, there were a lot of other people
    from [PLACE NAME],, Nakvasha, Peniaky,
    the small villages where similar people were
    leading, similar people like us, who
    came from other parts of Poland and purchased the land there.
    There were other villages.
    I see.
    So they are together.
    And from then on, they moved us to the railroad station
    in Brody, 24 miles--
    not 24 kilometers away on the horse-driven carriages.
    Yeah.
    So it took a day.
    In the morning, before noon, to Podkamién.
    They kept us there for a while.
    And then in the afternoon, they drove us
    to Brody, which had the railroad station.
    And there were already freight trains and boxcars,
    wooden boxcars on the railroads.
    And they put us in these railroad cars, shut the door,
    and drove us away.
    What did it look like inside those boxcars?
    Well, there was wooden platforms, I think two levels.
    So they put, let's say, two families in each.
    Oh, I don't know, for instance--
    Oh, I don't think you should get up.
    Sorry.
    No, that's OK.
    Maybe [INAUDIBLE] like a book or something like that.
    OK.
    Should I pause or--
    No, no, no, no, no.
    OK.
    Imagine this is a freight car--
    OK.
    --with the doors over here, just like you see, the same kind.
    Hang on a second.
    When he's showing on the book, do the book.
    Yeah, I'm ready to.
    OK.
    All right.
    So focus on the book when he's showing the book.
    OK, so yeah.
    So you're showing me something.
    So here's the freight cars.
    Yes, boxcar just like you see now taking goods all over.
    Brown, mostly brown, with a door here and a door here, right?
    Right.
    A sliding door.
    And this part, there's like a center.
    And this part, they had platform.
    They built platform, two levels.
    And they put two families on top and two families on the--
    depends on the family, maybe three families
    if they're small family.
    But there was like seven, eight people on this wooden platform
    inside this freight train.
    So there would be--
    these levels would be wooden levels.
    And you would be lying down or sitting up in these--
    You couldn't-- you had to go on knees, because regular,
    if you put two platforms, divide that height, which is, what,
    maybe eight feet.
    OK.
    So you had to--
    Slide in.
    On your knees.
    And then anybody--
    And then just laid down.
    There was straw on the wooden planks.
    OK.
    And on this straw, you just lay down and--
    Was everybody crammed in?
    So there were people--
    Very, very close together.
    And did anybody stay in that middle area standing up?
    No, in the middle area, there was a metal--
    what do you-- heating, heating stove,
    a stove, metal stove with pipes going out and a hole in,
    let's say, over here, a hole for a restroom.
    I see.
    And people put up a sheet just for some privacy.
    But they didn't care.
    I mean, they were just providing a hole,
    and you had to use it whenever you needed.
    And there was this stove where you could boil your water.
    If you got water.
    Well, yeah.
    There was a pail.
    A pail of water.
    A pail of water.
    And I mean, this is the beginning, right?
    So you could boil this water and nothing else.
    But they told us to take some food.
    So people would take whatever they
    had, maybe bacon or bread basically, cheese,
    things like that, eggs.
    So whoever was more industrious, as they take more,
    and that was a good decision.
    Others didn't take much, and they were starving.
    And so it meant that those soldiers
    who were yelling at your mother were doing you a favor because--
    I mean, it's ironic.
    But they were saying, take the food.
    Take the food.
    Take as much-- yes, take as much as you can, basically
    food and warm clothing.
    That's all they told us, yeah.
    Warm clothing and food.
    And since this was February, were there snow drifts outside?
    Was there a lot of snow at that point?
    Was it cold?
    There was a lot of snow.
    This was a very heavy winter, a lot of snow.
    But as soon as they put us in those freight trains,
    it was on the railroad tracks.
    Yeah.
    And you say there was a stove.
    Yes.
    Was there wood to heat it?
    Was there something there to heat--
    No, coal, coal.
    There was coal.
    They provided some box or some kind of a vessel to hold coal.
    And they would provide this coal every time
    they stopped on this trip.
    So they give you more coal.
    Did it keep it warm or not really?
    No, because it was as cold as it is now or colder.
    No, no, no.
    There was frost inside of this freight train, inside.
    And about how many people were in that one boxcar?
    In our car, there were I think about 40, 40 persons.
    So there was like four different platforms where you could--
    it's only about 10 to a platform, yes.
    It's exactly-- because my platform had nine people.
    We were close together.
    Was it your whole family?
    Yes.
    Well, whole family, that means my parents
    and one sister and me.
    I see.
    Four of you and five other people.
    Four of us.
    OK, did you know any of the other people
    who were in the car?
    Oh, yes because the other people were my brother with his wife
    and two sons, young, nine years and seven years.
    And it's just beginning of a horrible--
    they all died--
    Oh, my.
    --on the journey because there was no food, cold, pneumonia.
    Who knows?
    My father-- ah.
    Yeah, that's--
    So tell me about the journey.
    Tell me about it.
    Well, when they put us into these trains,
    the transport was quite the long transport.
    And it started to move east, east from Poland.
    It was in the city of Brody.
    Yeah, I said that's where the station was.
    And we started the journey.
    So next day, the journey actually start the next day
    because the first day was 10th of February,
    was just moving from the house to the station.
    And next day, the train started moving towards Russia.
    Did anybody tell you where you were going?
    No, nobody told us.
    But direction, we knew that we are going east.
    How did you know that?
    East, west, south.
    I mean, you were able to tell-- were you able to see through--
    was there any place to see through?
    Oh, yes, yes, there was.
    Sure.
    There were little openings like small windows,
    about the size of that block.
    Mm-hmm.
    Oh, the one-- I see.
    Yeah, yeah.
    Small windows there.
    And somebody would be looking through?
    Somebody, yes.
    I was looking through it all the time.
    Tell me what you saw as you--
    Well, I saw little villages and under the snow.
    These were always covered with snow.
    So whatever.
    Trees, rivers, roads.
    I could see that.
    Yeah, the first day when you're moving out,
    were you able to look through that little kind of window
    outside?
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    So could you tell when you left Poland and entered the Soviet
    Union?
    Was you able to tell that or not?
    Yes.
    First of all, the Polish railroad tracks
    are narrower than the Russians.
    So when you came to the border between Poland and Russia,
    they had to change the wheels or--
    Aha, they had to narrow down--
    to go to-- or they widen up?
    Wider.
    So it took some time before--
    and they had technique.
    They had ways of doing it, and it was all pretty efficient.
    So they just changed the whole wheel assembly.
    The same box, they lifted up, changed the wheels,
    and off we went to Russia.
    So we knew that we were going to Russia.
    And wherever they stopped it for changing these wheels,
    that was the border.
    That's right.
    That would make sense.
    That was the border.
    And as far as I know--
    I have some notes that I took.
    Four days it took us between our house and the time
    we reached the borders--
    Oh, really?
    --in Russia.
    It was four days.
    Four days?
    Four days.
    I would have thought it wouldn't take so long because--
    It shouldn't.
    It wasn't that far.
    But it took time--
    To get there.
    First of all, when they took us to Brody, a lot of other people
    would be coming.
    So they were gathering this transport.
    They were arranging a long transport, maybe of 40 carriages
    or something like that, a long transport.
    But there were only few from our place and few from others.
    And I know these people because I met them later in Canada.
    On the same transport?
    No, no, that they were taken the same time.
    Yeah.
    And, yeah, in the same transport, right.
    So it took some time to full--
    to organize the complete--
    So fill up all the cars.
    Fill out.
    OK.
    Fill up all those, yeah.
    Yeah.
    Because from us, there was not enough for a one wagon.
    But from other places and, like I say, Peniaky, [PLACE NAME],,
    Kutyshche.
    I remember those names from--
    they are still there.
    OK.
    I want to stop right now for a second.
    OK, this is a continuation of the United States Holocaust
    Memorial Museum interview with Mr. Anthony
    Chudzik on January 24, 2015.
    And before the break, Mr. Chudzik,
    we were talking about the day and the time of year
    when your family was thrown out of their homes
    and put on the train.
    On the train, yes.
    And we stopped pretty much at the area
    where you had been describing to me the border where the train
    cars are lifted and the wheels are
    exchanged for the wider rails of the Soviet railway system.
    Right.
    Tell me, after that, after you passed
    into the territory of the Soviet Union proper,
    about how long did the journey take?
    It took two weeks or just under two weeks.
    I think maybe 11, 12, 13--
    12 days.
    12 days.
    12 days, because that's 10 and 22nd we were at the destination,
    which was in Archangel district.
    And the place was called Shenchuga.
    Shenchuga?
    Shenchuga.
    And it was a small settlement where there were already some
    families lived there who were moved by Stalin from Ukraine
    to that area in about 33rd--
    1933, 1934.
    It was that area when or the time where Stalin
    moved a lot of Ukrainian people and Byelorussian people
    into that--
    we call it Siberia.
    OK.
    Archangel.
    So that could have been-- that could
    have been during what eventually became the famine,
    the famine in Ukraine in those years.
    Exactly.
    Exactly.
    That's the time.
    OK.
    A lot of people were moved from Ukraine
    to those areas, and their--
    Would you say they were deported as well by being moved?
    Yes.
    They must have been deported.
    Just took-- they were taken out of their homes and sent
    there, sent to that area.
    So tell me, geographically, this--
    how do we pronounce it?
    Archangel.
    Archangel.
    Arkhangelsk areas.
    Where is that in the Soviet Union?
    Is it in the--
    just where is it?
    Where do we find it?
    All right, it's almost north of Moscow.
    Archangel is the port on the Bering Sea, I think.
    Up north.
    And it goes through another city of Vologda.
    Vologda.
    Vologda is one of the larger cities.
    And it's like a railroad center.
    From there, there are different directions
    that they had the tracks built.
    So tell me, in this 12 days that it took to get there,
    what were the conditions like in the cattle car?
    We were able to get out of the wagon or whatever.
    How can you call it?
    Cattle car.
    Cattle car.
    Cattle car?
    Yeah, goods train, cattle car.
    When the train stopped to take water,
    as a locomotive was filling up with water and maybe fuel,
    then people were able to get out of this transport
    and just maybe walk or go to a--
    because usually it was like by the station, railway station.
    So they could go there and maybe purchase something like bread.
    On some stations, there was bread available.
    Or get boiled water, which they called [RUSSIAN]..
    [RUSSIAN]
    In Russia, [RUSSIAN],, which is just boiled water.
    But you could use it to make something like tea
    or whatever you had to put into it.
    And sometimes it was two hours stop, maybe three hour stop,
    and then everybody would get back.
    Of course, it was guarded.
    There were, every few wagons--
    or, yes, yes, I call it wagon--
    there were guards, Russian military guards.
    So they were watching everybody.
    You couldn't get too far away from where the station was,
    where the train was stopped.
    But normally, the train was put on a side track,
    and there was nowhere to go, really.
    So there wouldn't be towns that would be connected
    to these railway stations.
    No, there were towns, yes.
    There were towns?
    There were towns.
    But nobody was allowed to leave towards the town.
    Where there people in your car, in your wagon who spoke Russian?
    Oh, I suppose, yeah.
    I spoke Russian.
    Even so?
    Even as a young--
    oh, because of your studying in school.
    In school, we were learning Russian in school.
    Yes.
    And were you able to, when you stopped in these places,
    to get a sense of where you were geographically?
    Oh, not really, because if you ask, and I did ask also--
    so they said, because it was war.
    So they say, military secret.
    We're not allowed to discuss anything.
    They couldn't tell you.
    But there were names on the stations.
    So we could read the name of it.
    Moskva is easy.
    M-O-S--
    Did you stop through Moscow?
    We went through Moscow, yes.
    Our transport went through Moscow, towards north
    to Vologda.
    And then a little past Vologda, there
    is Kenosha, similar name to this Kenosha in Wisconsin.
    Really?
    Well, ko or K--
    Kenosha or Kenosha.
    And there is a track going toward northeast towards Kotlas.
    Kotlas.
    Kotlas is larger city again on the Dvina River.
    Dvina, Dvina.
    Mm-hmm.
    So they took us on that.
    So people were able to at least get out and get some hot water.
    Get out, get water, or even purchase something or exchange,
    let's say, and purchase because nobody
    had the money at that time in rubles.
    But exchange, you could exchange anything, shoes.
    Do you remember if your family traded anything?
    Yes, we traded some.
    Like, we traded shawl, a shawl.
    Or we had some extra shirts, so we could trade it.
    Or blankets were very, very desirable,
    but people kept some blankets for themselves
    because it was cold, and there was only
    one metal stove in this wagon.
    Mm-hmm.
    Did anybody get sick on that way there?
    Yes, people got sick.
    And out of about 60 people, nine died on the journey.
    In your wagon?
    Yes.
    And my brother's two sons, little guys--
    one was nine years old, and the other was seven years old--
    they died.
    We think that it was from pneumonia,
    but nobody could tell for sure because there were no doctors
    to tell you what the disease was or what the element was.
    So in 12 days--
    Yes, 12 days.
    Exactly 12 days.
    And if we stopped at the station,
    people were allowed to get out of the wagon and either walk.
    Or people took a opportunity to do the natural--
    Functions.
    --functions or get this boiled water, which it was very, very
    important for everybody.
    [RUSSIAN] was very important.
    We could get some boiled the stove,
    but there was no way of getting water anywhere because there
    was only one pail provided.
    And so that water didn't last.
    But people gathered snow and melted the snow on the stove
    and drank that water made from snow.
    So your brother's two children, your nephews, who died--
    Yes.
    --did they die at the end or in the middle of the journey?
    Oh, it was in the middle, in the middle of the journey.
    And they didn't have any burial.
    People who died during the journey
    were left on the railroad platform where there always--
    there were always corpses already as we were, let's say,
    passing through these stations or we stopped at the stations.
    So there were people, dead people, corpses on the platforms
    are ready to be moved somewhere.
    But we don't know where.
    I mean, whether they do, just cemetery or whatever.
    And were the two little boys left there as well?
    Yes, left there against wishes.
    They wanted to bury them, but there was no chance
    of anything like that.
    No chance.
    I can't imagine how your brother and how
    their mother must have felt.
    Oh, terrible, terrible.
    They were crying and their despair, and it was awful.
    Absolutely terrible.
    But that was-- nobody carried.
    The guards didn't care.
    And people who were the engineers--
    here they call them engineers, who
    were in charge of locomotive, they couldn't do anything.
    They were just given orders to go whatever.
    Drive the train.
    Yeah.
    Pardon?
    They were given orders to drive the train.
    Yeah, drive the train.
    Or the trains were put on a side track, and they were--
    we were waiting for a couple of days maybe.
    Because the 12 days, I mean, it's not that far.
    You could do it in one day, really,
    if it was going all continuous.
    But they were stopping.
    Yeah.
    Were there old people who died as well in your car?
    Oh, sure, sure, there was old people,
    even from my distant family.
    Because my brother's-- my brother's wife--
    wife's sister, married sister, were also with us.
    So her husband passed.
    He was maybe 50 years old or something like that.
    So people were dying.
    What did you see when you got to the final destination?
    Well, we got to Podyuga, which was a little town where
    the station was.
    From there on, we were taken by sleigh driven by horses on snow.
    Mm-hmm.
    During the winter, they use sleighs.
    OK.
    Am I pronouncing it right or no?
    Yes, you are.
    You are.
    Yeah.
    So they put us on sleighs.
    And some people were forced to walk behind, they who could.
    Children and older people could sit in the sleighs.
    And they drove us from this railroad station
    to the final destination, which was
    a settlement inside the forest.
    There was an opening, a large opening,
    and there were log houses.
    Mm-hmm.
    They were built like twins.
    It was one big log house with a wall in between--
    I see.
    --separating these two.
    And there was a door here and a door here.
    And you could just enter through this door into the large room.
    And the whole families were there.
    I mean, a large family, maybe seven, eight people,
    because there were families like that.
    So there was only one family.
    But otherwise, there were two families,
    either a three or four.
    So there were two or three families put
    into each of these big rooms.
    And there was a iron stove here and a bed, bed made of wood.
    And there was straw for mattresses
    in a box, a wooden box.
    Would this be one bed in each corner for each family?
    No.
    By one-- let's say it was a room smaller maybe than this.
    So there was just a bed made of wooden--
    Planks.
    --planks, planks.
    Yeah.
    And the whole family was in one bed.
    But if you have--
    Parents and me and we're all in one bed.
    And then did other families have another bed in the same room?
    No, there was only one bed.
    In the whole room?
    In the whole room.
    So if you were a family that was given one room,
    then you were OK.
    So the family-- otherwise, there were two families in a bed.
    In one bed?
    Yeah.
    How could they all fit?
    Well, what do you mean?
    They just went to bed and slept it like on a platform,
    on a wooden platform.
    There were no beds or mattresses.
    No, no, no.
    I guess I'm trying to get a sense of if you had one room,
    and you had two families in it, and there was only one bed,
    how can two families fit on the one bed?
    Well, there were about six people
    could fit in a bed like that.
    It was not a regular bed.
    It was just--
    A raised platform?
    Raised platform, yes, with some sides and lot of straw.
    And you just lay there.
    OK, and it was in the middle of the room or to the side of it?
    No, maybe toward the corner, yes.
    I see.
    Maybe toward the corner.
    But there was not much room for anything
    other than just sleeping.
    Mm-hmm.
    That's all.
    And were these rooms already occupied by other families
    when you came or were they empty?
    No, when we came in, they were all empty.
    These log cabins were empty.
    So they just assigned several people or one family
    or two families to one room.
    And it started up like that.
    So it was almost similar to being in the wagon,
    in the carriage on the way.
    Yeah.
    Except that it was larger and made of logs.
    And it didn't move.
    And it didn't move.
    No, no, it didn't move.
    Like the carriage.
    You can see these log houses in movies
    or in Canada or something.
    They're putting log-- little log cabins, they call them.
    Log cabins, that's exactly what it was.
    And was it-- you say there was a stove in there.
    Yeah.
    Did it heat up the place, or was it frosted like the--
    No, no.
    It gave a little warmth.
    But it was used for cooking, too.
    If you had something that you could cook,
    then you could cook on that stove.
    But after we-- that was during the journey, right?
    You're talking about--
    Yes.
    But similar situation was at the destination
    where they took us to Shenchuga, that settlement.
    So the homes were just like I just describe.
    And you would get cooked meal at the dining room.
    There was a large dining room, a community dining room where
    they provide you with food.
    You didn't have to pay for it.
    So is this the first time that the authorities actually
    fed you, and up till then, you had
    to eat whatever you had taken with you?
    Yeah.
    Well, they were given--
    they were giving bread.
    At every station, they were giving bread.
    OK.
    Maybe one loaf or two loaves, depends on the number
    of people in the family.
    So everybody would get out and received an assigned--
    Portion.
    --portion.
    OK.
    And about how many of such log cabins were there
    in this settlement?
    This is only from my memory because I
    know how they were distributed.
    So maybe there were about 30.
    So it was large for a settlement in the middle of the forest.
    In the middle of the forest.
    But there were like a road and these little cabins
    on both sides and then another row and another row.
    So there was, yes, probably maybe 30 and 40.
    And the forests, were these--
    There were people already living in half of it.
    I see.
    Because those people were deported to those areas
    during that famine.
    Got it.
    Yes.
    But half or almost half of that [RUSSIAN],, we call it--
    it's a settlement--
    was empty.
    Did anybody come at that point?
    And when you got to that settlement,
    did they tell you why you were there
    and what you were going to be doing?
    Was there any official announcement?
    Yes, yes, they were tell--
    you are here to work in the forest until you [RUSSIAN]..
    In other words, until you die.
    But it wasn't this word die is not a regular death,
    but if you--
    by the time you just end your life.
    [RUSSIAN],, it's more towards the animal.
    Animals, they die also, right?
    We use this-- at least I think we use the same word for animals
    and humans.
    But over there, it was different for animals.
    The animals, they're just ending their life.
    So you are here until you end your life.
    That's all.
    They will always tell you that you are here
    to work until you die.
    You could hear it from every guard
    because there were armed guards over there.
    It was like a military compound.
    And so was it surrounded by a fence?
    No, there was no fence.
    The fence was natural habitat.
    Where could you go?
    Forest and nothing.
    There was a river, a large river.
    Nobody could pass probably, unless he knew how to swim.
    But where could you go?
    On the other side of the river?
    I did swim that river, although, as I say, I was only 13 years
    old to begin with and then 14.
    So did they tell you what the work was?
    What was the work that everybody had to do?
    The work, mostly men and able women
    were assigned to cut timber.
    They were cutting timber, woom, and then cutting
    these shorter pieces, about a yard long, three feet long.
    And somebody would put a cubical or something, like three
    by three.
    And then they would tie it with a rope.
    And the guy responsible, supervisor, a Russian guy,
    would come and stamp these pieces.
    He had like a hammer, and he put a stamp on every one.
    It was funny.
    Well, now it's something.
    But some people would cut the ends very tiny,
    cut it off during the night or something like that,
    and they said, well, this is what we did today.
    So he would stamp it again, but it was the same cubicle.
    So in other words, they cut--
    They were cheating, people were cheating the authorities,
    let's say.
    So that meant they'd cut the end that he had stamped.
    Yeah.
    And they cut the stamp off, and they left it
    as if it hadn't been, and then they used the same cubic feet
    of logs for the next day.
    For the next day.
    [LAUGHS]
    But It wasn't that--
    I mean, it's not that typical, really.
    Yeah, not that often.
    Not that often, but it happened.
    I know that happened because my brothers used to do it.
    Yeah.
    What kind of instruments did they use for cutting logs,
    for cutting the trees?
    Oh, handsaws.
    Handsaws.
    Handsaws, a big saw about five feet
    long with big teeth and a handle at each end, and they would--
    So all of this was, let's say, from human energy, no machines
    at all.
    There were machines at a sawmill.
    I see.
    Because what happened, they cut the wood, timber,
    and they put them in the river.
    And they would float those logs on the river to a place
    where they had sawmills.
    And there were machinery with hooks, metal hooks,
    that would constantly rotate like this, big chains maybe
    12, 14 feet long.
    And this chain would go into the river,
    and there were men who were guiding
    the logs towards this machine.
    And the hooks came, brought the logs on the shore.
    And there were people who took the logs again,
    human strength, human force, and cut them into shorter pieces
    and put them into these cubicles.
    And from then on, they would move them on trains to paper--
    Paper mills.
    --factories or paper plants.
    So what was the wood that was being cut?
    Was it pine?
    Pine.
    Basically pine, yes.
    Mm-hmm.
    Yes.
    One like that's growing out here in this--
    And did you-- you were so young.
    Were you put to work as well?
    Until I was 14 years old, I was forced to go--
    I mean, forced.
    I liked to go to school.
    But it was a very short time.
    When we arrive there in February,
    I went to school because there were schools
    for the Russian people there.
    So until I was 14 years old, which only a few months,
    then I could stop going to school and go to work.
    And this is what I did.
    Because I didn't want to go to school there.
    So I started working when I was 14 years old.
    I was allow--
    I was authorized-- I was authorized
    to take up employment.
    But up to 14, no.
    You had to go to school.
    And so you said there was a school for the Russian kids.
    Yes, yes, a regular school.
    OK, so in addition to the Ukrainians
    who had been deported, was there like a regular--
    were there regular Russians who weren't prisoners
    of any kind who lived there?
    That's right.
    That's right.
    All settlements.
    People lived there for many, many years.
    OK, generations or something.
    Yeah, maybe generations.
    But who knows?
    And did some of them live in different kinds of quarters
    than the one you described?
    No, the same kind of quarters, except that people would--
    to expand, they built a little shed by that log cabin
    or they built like an entrance so that normally, you
    would enter from outside, like even here.
    I don't have anything, yeah.
    But you could build a little--
    Pre-entrance.
    Yeah.
    Pre-entrance.
    So they were improving whatever they could do,
    or they just live the way it was provided.
    What about the camp administrators?
    Since they were the officials--
    Oh, they had beautiful, beautiful buildings.
    Oh, did they?
    Yeah, they had beautiful buildings, large.
    I remember, because my father who was a builder, he worked--
    they put him to work right away.
    And the building that was there was falling apart.
    So he almost rebuild it, and it was like a mansion, painted
    white and everything.
    Sometimes you can see those in the movies, big, big homes.
    So that's part the commandant or the main administrator lived.
    And did they have families?
    They had families, yes.
    But they were armed, and they were just
    like a military personnel.
    OK, so you were the prisoners, and they were the guards.
    We were prisoners, but we are not
    prisoners in the sense that we couldn't go out
    or anything like that.
    But within that area, yeah, we could move freely.
    OK.
    Freely.
    But there was nowhere to go.
    Nowhere to go, unless somebody wanted to risk--
    Well, going out in the winter into the forest to cut trees,
    did people--
    were they given the kind of clothing that you would need
    or not?
    No, no, no.
    Whatever we brought with us--
    That was it.
    --that's what they used.
    Maybe later on, because then they
    started paying for your time that you worked in the forest.
    People were paid, so you could probably buy little better--
    Was there a store there?
    There was one official store.
    There no privacy-- there was no private enterprise, nothing.
    But there was a store.
    And usually, you could buy shoes specially adapted for the cold.
    They were made out of fabric, fabric with some cotton
    inside or whatever.
    Wool?
    Cotton wool?
    Yeah.
    Yeah.
    Cotton wool.
    I have pictures of those things here.
    You can see how they looked.
    And what else would be in these stores?
    Oh, they had lot of champagne.
    Really?
    Yeah.
    You enter into the store, so all the shelves
    were full of champagne bottles.
    And you could buy it if you had money.
    But I don't think-- and they were selling bread.
    But bread was rationed.
    You were allowed, for instance, half a pound of bread.
    And you had coupons.
    You tendered the coupon and then get the bread for it
    and pay for it.
    But just give you an example.
    When I reached the age of 14 years old, I started working.
    And I was supplying fuel to those steam boilers.
    You had to constantly feed steam boilers
    to produce steam to operate the machines.
    And I worked as one that was supplying the fuel
    to these large boilers.
    And these were the machines that were--
    Taking the wood out--
    Of the water.
    And then they were also cutting.
    But at the sawmills, they have mechanical saws,
    big saws like this.
    So they were operated by steam.
    Every machine that was there was operated by steam,
    no electricity, by steam.
    Interesting.
    So there were big boilers, constant, and supply tubes.
    They had systems built pretty well.
    Organized.
    Were you warm as you were doing this?
    Was this kind of a job that people
    would have wanted to have because of the conditions?
    Or is it a difficult job?
    No, no, no, no.
    You had no choice.
    You were assigned.
    I know.
    You are going to do this and you this and this.
    You couldn't--
    I understand you couldn't choose.
    You couldn't choose.
    Yeah, my question is that, was it
    a good job to have in the conditions?
    Or was it one that was too difficult and nobody
    wanted to do it?
    There was no other work available, only timber.
    Everything was timber.
    Cutting wood, cutting to smaller pieces,
    cleaning it, removing the branches.
    Was your work outside?
    Outside all the time.
    Outside.
    It was outside.
    They were cutting the trees, big tall trees, cleaning them,
    then cutting shorter, putting them on like pallets and--
    And supplying the fuel to the steam boiler
    was also something that was done outside?
    Oh, yeah.
    Yes, outside.
    Yes, outside.
    And there were four of us that were responsible for supplying
    the fuel to the boilers.
    And we had a little carriage on four wheels that
    were on tracks, regular tracks.
    We had to push this to where the other people were cutting
    the wood to shorter pieces.
    We collect those ends, put them on the thing,
    and take it to the boiler.
    So it was the ends of the wood that was the fuel.
    Yeah, for these boilers.
    For these boilers.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    Yes.
    So it was the scrap wood that you were--
    Scrap wood or whatever was left, because they
    were cutting certain lengths, equal lengths,
    but there were leftovers.
    So this leftover we picked up and hauled it to the boiler
    area.
    OK.
    And so in your own barracks, did you also
    have some of this scrap wood to heat your own barracks or--
    Yes, yes.
    Yes, yes.
    OK.
    Was it allowed, or was it--
    Sure, it was allowed, plentiful.
    OK.
    Yeah, you could-- whatever you needed for the little stove,
    you could have it, could have it.
    Was there anything that, let's say,
    of these materials, of what you found in the forest
    that you couldn't take, that wasn't
    allowed to be used for your own purposes?
    No, no, there was nothing.
    No.
    OK.
    Everything-- well, I mean, I can't imagine what really--
    Well, sometime I've heard of people
    who got in trouble because they were accused of taking hay that
    wasn't supposed to be taken.
    And sometimes--
    Well, yeah, maybe if there were those state farms.
    Of course.
    That's right.
    You couldn't do that.
    But there was another instance where we stole--
    me and my sister, Stanislawa, younger sister--
    we were stealing cabbage because there was a state farm nearby.
    And they had a large--
    I don't know-- maybe an acre or two acres of--
    they were growing regular cabbage.
    So we would steal the cabbage from this field.
    And you didn't get caught.
    We didn't get caught.
    But we did it during very bad weather.
    The storm was terrible.
    There was raining and things like that.
    Nobody will be out at that time, but we were.
    We had some sacks and put some heads of the cabbage
    into the sacks, brought it home at night.
    Mother right away started cutting
    the head, the cabbage into the sauerkraut maybe,
    put in these small containers.
    And you had at least some sauerkraut.
    And then we had sauerkraut, yes.
    Were you hungry in this place?
    Oh, many times, yes.
    Many times were hungry because food was short
    and bread was strictly rationed.
    What was it that you ate?
    What were you given--
    Potato and basically soup made with fish.
    So they would, let's say, cut the heads off of a fish,
    and the fish would go to some restaurants or something
    like that.
    And the heads, they would make soup with the heads.
    So it was like a clam chowder.
    [LAUGHS]
    A very particular kind of clam chowder.
    Yeah, no.
    But they were heads, head fishes floating.
    And it was very popular.
    Yeah.
    Well, it sounds also it probably was somewhat healthy,
    that as much as there was very little,
    fish is generally healthy.
    Well, yeah, no, but usually, they always--
    there was some vegetable that they could use, make soup.
    But as I say, basically, they were community dining rooms.
    Yeah.
    And there was a large dining room with tables.
    And everybody was allowed certain amount of--
    Of food.
    --food.
    So you go to this dining room--
    And you get either--
    --for breakfast, for lunch, and for dinner.
    And when I was working, I was paid four rubles
    and five kopek, kopek.
    OK.
    Like $0.05.
    Was that a weekly wage?
    No, daily.
    That was the daily wage.
    Four rubles and five kopek, kopek.
    Each food was one ruble.
    Each time you went to eat.
    Each time you want to eat at the dining, it was one ruble.
    And the bread that were assigned was one ruble and five kopek.
    So that was my daily wage.
    If I wanted to buy all the bread that I was allowed,
    then there was nothing left.
    But sometimes I didn't buy.
    I only bought two portions of bread.
    So I spent two rubles and had two rubles spared.
    So then I could do something else with this money.
    I see.
    I see.
    And that was day from day, day after day after day.
    What happened with the older people?
    Did people continue to get sick?
    No, they continued to die.
    There were a lot of people that were dying.
    Lot of people died during the short time that we were there.
    I would say about 200 people died.
    And later on, I got a better job because I
    decided to become a shepherd.
    So those local Russians who lived there for many years,
    they were born there and everything, they were free,
    right?
    So they had goats.
    Each family had one or two goats.
    So they needed a shepherd to tend to these goats.
    So myself and my mother, we decided to get that job
    or take the job if nobody wanted it or couldn't or whatever.
    So I used to have a little wooden piece like this
    on a string, and I had two little pieces of wood
    like the orchestra guy has.
    Oh, yeah.
    mm-hmm.
    And I used to do the pum-para-rum-pum,
    pum-para-rum-pum in the morning about 5 o'clock.
    And these goats start coming out of their sheds on the main road.
    And when there was about 350, 400 of them gathered together,
    then I took them to the pasture.
    And I took care of them during the day,
    and they were just feeling on the grass.
    Right.
    So you would just mind them.
    I would mind them, take care so no one was lost.
    And in the evening, I brought them back.
    And each one knew where she belongs.
    It was funny.
    I just brought them into this little village,
    and they found their own homes.