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Henry Feingold

Film | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.166 | RG Number: RG-60.5060 | Film ID: 4606, 4607, 4608

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    Henry Feingold
    Transcript
    (film slating)
    Do I begin?
    No.
    OK.
    The question about American Jewry is a very difficult one
    and it's simply this.
    How was it that an American Jewry with the richest
    infrastructure of any ethnic group in the United States,
    emerging from the Depression faster
    than any other group in the United States,
    with the chairman of the three major committees in Congress
    associated with rescue, Solomon Bloom, Samuel Dickstein,
    and Emanuel Celler, all headed by Jews, and in addition,
    having very close positions to that wonderful inner circle
    that Roosevelt kept about himself.
    How was it that, with such political weapons,
    American Jewry was not appreciably
    able to move the Roosevelt administration on the rescue
    issue?
    It's a fascinating question.
    It is.
    And the question is, whether there is not
    a kind of messianic fantasy about even mentioning the idea
    that there was such a thing as American
    Jewry as an American Jewish community in the 1930s,
    a figment of a messianic Jewish imagination.
    As a matter of fact, there were many Jewish communities
    in the United States.
    And when the crisis was upon them,
    they literally came apart the delicate bridges
    that bound them together simply did not hold.
    Today the issues which seem to divide them
    seem unbelievably unreal.
    The first one, of course, was how
    to approach the Nazi menace, and even if there was
    such a thing as a Nazi menace.
    And those old uptown factions headed
    by the American Jewish committee who
    remember the Germany of Beethoven,
    the Germany of Schiller, thought that power--
    Excuse me.
    You mean that these people belonging
    to the American Jewish committee were original--
    Originally German.
    Although their power and their presence
    had been dissipated over the years,
    there were not that many German Jews involved anymore.
    Many downtown, many Eastern Jews, or the sons and daughters
    of the Eastern Jews, were now in positions of power.
    Excuse me.
    You make a difference between the uptown
    Jews and the downtown Jews.
    Well, I use that division classification.
    It's an old classification that goes back
    to the beginning of the century when
    the Jews, the original German Jewish migration,
    moved to the Westside.
    They were then called uptown Jews and they,
    it refers to Jews of the reformed persuasion
    because American Jewry was not only
    divided politically and culturally, but also
    religiously.
    Who were of German background and far better
    established economically than the more recent arrivals,
    although the difference was beginning
    to shrink by the 1930s.
    It was beginning to grow much.
    Now these Jews, of course, had traditionally
    been disturbed by loud and emotional displays.
    As early as 1905, Oscar Strauss is
    wondering whether unseemly displays of protest to pressure
    the administration really work.
    We call it Shtadlanut.
    They believed in quiet diplomacy.
    They believed that power would ultimately moderate Hitler
    and that the crisis was a temporary one.
    All one had to do was hang on.
    But this was an old traditional Jewish way of--
    Yes, the tradition.
    Pleading with the gentile.
    Right.
    Now, the issues, as I say, were first on whether there
    was a menace.
    And then, of course, on more concrete things
    like the possibility of mounting a boycott against Hitler.
    And the issue was also political.
    Many of the uptown Jews were not as entranced
    by Roosevelt. As were the sons and daughters of Eastern
    Jews, which had a much more universalistic approach
    and had been, since the beginning of the century,
    drunk with the idea of democracy and with the welfare state.
    The idea that government had a role
    to play in helping the poor.
    It was a philosophy that their parents believed them
    and they, of course, bought it wholesale.
    You said, drunk.
    Drunk with the idea of democracy.
    I say drunk because Jews are the only ethnic community United
    States that had intragroup elections.
    Two between 1910 and 1920 and one in the 1930s
    to see who should rule the community, who should govern
    it, as if there was a possibility
    in the voluntaristic setting that we had
    of governing American juries.
    If one could order a Jew to his Jewishness, of course
    that was highly impossible.
    I say drunk because they really bought the idea
    that democracy could work.
    So much so that between 1908 in 1921,
    the Jews actually formed a kehilla,
    reminiscent of the old kehal, to govern themselves.
    This was a group that was coming to terms with America
    in far different terms than other ethnic groups.
    Now the question, of course, was on whether we can assign
    such a group responsibility.
    As Meir Kahane does, as Elie Wiesel
    often does, whether this group actually failed.
    And I would suggest to you that a very close look
    at the documents indicates that perhaps Nahum Goldman is right.
    Perhaps we were not quite ready to accept
    the mantle of leadership that had been ensconced
    for centuries in Europe.
    It came to us so precipitously so suddenly.
    Perhaps our leadership wasn't very intelligent.
    Perhaps it lacked stature.
    But those who took a conscious betrayal I think
    are being unjust, perhaps unintelligent, perhaps
    even lack of will, but betrayal never.
    As a matter of fact, one could safely
    say that virtually every single one of the techniques used
    later by the Civil Rights movement
    to move the American government in a certain direction
    was initially conceived by Jews during the 1930s.
    From theater techniques, from mass protests,
    the problem was, of course, that the Roosevelt administration
    was not attuned to a problem central to our own kin
    and that really brings us to the second question.
    And that is, are we assigning American Jewry in the 1930s
    a responsibility for action which their power did not
    match?
    Are we tilting with windmills?
    And the reason why I say that's an important question
    is because the assumption behind the idea that American
    Jewry did not do enough is based on one
    of the basic facets of Jewish political culture in Europe.
    And that culture is this, that assumption
    is this, that there exists in the world
    a spirit of civilized goodness that is ready to intercede
    for Jews if Jews mobilize it.
    And what happened is that we failed to arouse
    that spirit of civilization
    Now we looked for it in the Oval Office.
    One looks for it in the Vatican.
    One looks for it in London.
    But how Jews came to the notion that between Kishinev
    and Auschwitz there was such a spirit that
    cared in the world that could be mobilized for them
    is a strange phenomenon.
    And yet, if one reads that famous--
    Kishinev, you mean the pogrom.
    The pogram of Kishinev, yes.
    If one reads the cable by Louis Marshall
    to the pope in 1915 asking him please
    to intercede to stop the depredations against Jews
    in Poland and receiving no answer or an indifferent
    answer.
    One could understand that in 1942
    when we asked the same thing there would be no answer.
    There was no spirit of civilization.
    (film slating)
    Let me give you an example of what
    I mean by that illusion of a civilized spirit.
    In 1943, a message was sent to Szmul Zygielbojm in London
    that he ought to do everything, including starving himself
    to death with other Jewish leaders
    to arouse the consciousness of the world.
    What a bitter irony.
    Zygielbojm had already given up the idea
    that there existed such an animal in London,
    but the people sitting right on top of Treblinka
    are still talking about a conscious of the world.
    It was such a difficult thing.
    So all pervading to root it out and it
    has a long history in Judaism.
    From the national minority rights
    clauses at the Treaty of Versailles and the idea
    that Judaism can be protected even
    in Poland by legal clauses.
    And that was a very, very hard thing to get away with.
    And it is the assumption, on which
    the indictment against American Jewry
    rests, that there existed such a spirit
    in the oval office of Roosevelt, and that we
    failed to arouse it.
    And I really seriously wonder if we're not misreading the New
    Deal history.
    Now, let me get to another point then,
    on the illusion of centrality, another illusion
    in Jewish political culture.
    And that illusion is that the Jewish question
    and that Jews in general, are more important than they really
    are.
    It is an illusion shared by the antisemitic imagination, which
    imagines that Jews have power behind the scenes,
    and conspire to rule the world.
    Now of course, one can answer very simply,
    that a people who is really powerful
    does not lose one out of three of its members
    in a catastrophe like the Holocaust, which
    is the surest evidence that it is an illusion.
    But paradoxically enough, Jews, perhaps because
    of their own weakness, would love
    to believe that because they own The New York Times
    or they own CBS--
    which they don't really do--
    that they really have such power.
    It was in fact, the reason why the whole question
    of priorities was so bad.
    It was a weak and vulnerable people
    that was destroyed in Auschwitz, not
    a people who had power anywhere in the world.
    And the fact is that they were powerless.
    And we define that powerlessness by saying, the surest
    meaning in the international arena was a lack of options.
    An inability to have alternatives
    about what to do, not only in Europe but in America as well.
    Yes, you mean that this weakness and this powerlessness
    existed--
    In America.
    --amongst American Jews too.
    Precisely.
    And one could really see it from several points of view.
    In 1936, when Roosevelt entered his second New Deal,
    most ethnic groups lessened their loyalty to him.
    The second New Deal was a more radical one, and by that time,
    some people had had their fill.
    The Jews, on the other hand, together with Black Americans
    actually increased their proportion of their vote.
    By 1940, Jews were giving over 90% of their vote
    to the New Deal.
    A new threat--
    To the second New Deal.
    To the second New Deal.
    A new political party had to be created, the American Labor
    Party, so that Jewish socialists could
    give their votes to a highborn Episcopalian
    without compromising their principles.
    It was a fascinating display.
    Now that really means the following,
    that so strong was the Jewish love affair with Roosevelt--
    because of his domestic policy not his foreign policy--
    that Jewish leaders, like Steven Wise and others,
    could not threaten Roosevelt with a loss of the Jewish vote
    if he did not do their bidding on the rescue issue.
    As a matter of fact, it was quite the reverse.
    The archives are full of letters from Jewish leaders asking
    Roosevelt's secretaries to please send a letter confirming
    him or supporting him for a position
    in a Jewish organization.
    So strong was that bind, that tie to Roosevelt,
    that it could not be removed.
    And in a sense, Jewish leaders were then
    dependent on the less certain rewards for loyalty.
    They had, in other words, a very, very limited
    political leverage in the New Deal.
    Not only because the issue was a minor one for the Roosevelt
    administration, one which had a very low priority,
    but because the Jews had in fact perhaps
    a disproportionate amount of political leverage,
    but not enough to really change major policy.
    Now one might argue, and I have argued this many times,
    that in comparison to other American groups,
    the Jews did very well in the 1930s.
    For example, of the German Americans in 1916.
    The German Americans in 1916 were
    the largest single ethnic group in the United States.
    They had none of the problems that American Jewry did.
    They were not fragmented.
    They were coherent.
    They had a voice.
    And they were instrumental in delivering the election of 1916
    to Wilson who ran on the platform,
    he kept us out of war.
    German Americans wanted America out of the war.
    They did not want America to declare war
    against the fatherland.
    But a month after Wilson was inaugurated in March of 1917,
    he was compelled nevertheless to declare war.
    What happened to German Americans?
    Well, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage.
    Hamburgers became Salisbury steaks.
    German was dropped from the curriculum.
    And for a while, it was very uncomfortable to be a German
    American in the United States.
    The German Americans did not succeed
    in changing a major American policy.
    The Poles did not succeed in preventing the crime of Crimea.
    And the Irish Americans, the most politically astute group
    in the United States, the one that
    had captured the local political machines, the one that
    had shown that one could be unified
    through a religious hierarchy, the Catholic church,
    had only one interest between 1880 and 1910.
    It was called twisting the lion's tail,
    preventing a rapprochement between England and the United
    States.
    And yet, they were not able to do so,
    but that rapprochement did take place.
    Compared to other ethnic groups, in other words,
    to other hyphenate groups, American Jewry
    did not do it all badly.
    And that is a far better comparison than the one
    that I could think of--
    were they afraid in the 30s of a wave of antisemitism
    in the United States?
    Yes.
    Of course, that is another factor
    in the question of Jewish political power.
    The Depression, with the economic dislocation
    that it caused, had released enormously new waves
    of antisemitism which perhaps frightened American Jewry more
    than it should have.
    Our studies of the German American Bund
    today indicate that it was not as powerful as we thought.
    The German American Bund was a German Jew--
    no, not a Jew, a German American.
    Right.
    The Fritz Kuhn.
    Now we have new work on that by Sander Diamond.
    And he indicates that the entire membership
    of the German American Bund may have been only 9,000,
    with perhaps another few thousand hangers on.
    We had overestimated it.
    Of course, there is always Father Coughlin and others.
    The point was that the antisemites
    were able to make a great deal of noise by themselves,
    and were able to do something else that we had not
    taken into consideration.
    They were able to link themselves
    to legitimate isolationism, and amplify their political voice
    in that way.
    And that link is borne out by Charles Lindbergh,
    who was an American folk hero.
    Charles Lindbergh, in September 1941,
    makes a speech in Des Moines, Iowa in which he warns America
    that Jews and anglophiles are plotting
    to get America into a war.
    It's an antisemitic message amalgamated
    with the isolationist message and therefore legitimized.
    It was that linkage--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    --that linkage that really made the antisemitic force very
    strong.
    And of course, beyond the antisemitism,
    there was an entire amalgamation of forces.
    One could say, of antisemitism, restrictionism,
    that is the refusal to take immigrants
    into the United States.
    Isolationism existed on a kind of a spectrum.
    While a liberal immigration policy, and early recognition
    of the Nazis' threat, and ultimately interventionism
    existed on the other side.
    And Roosevelt delicately tried to balance,
    between 1938 and 1940, his steps between one and the other.
    In the case of the Jews, he happened
    to be, he needed to be much more the fox than the lion.
    Perhaps the bitterest irony of all
    is, that in the restrictionism of the New Deal,
    in the antirefugee policy, what we find
    is that it is a classic example of democracy at work.
    There seems to be very little question
    that the consensus in America, even as late as 1941
    and perhaps as late as 1944, was that refugees whether they were
    children or adults simply had no place in America,
    while one third of the nation was ill housed,
    ill clothed, and ill fed.
    And if Roosevelt ever forgot it, there
    was always a Senator Reynolds from North Carolina who
    could cite the president's own ringing
    phrases to remind him that there was need at home
    and who needs refuge.
    And the other paradox, of course, is that in 1938,
    from all that we know, the American Jewish community
    itself was more American than Jewish.
    It too was afraid of an influx of Jewish refugees
    during the Depression.
    It shared that with its American compatriots.
    To have gone beyond that, according to Samuel Dickstein,
    to have proposed that America lift its paper wall,
    as one authority called it, one historian, David Wyman,
    would have probably resulted in a boomerang with much more
    restrictive legislation.
    Paper wall, what do you mean exactly?
    The series of bureaucratic and administrative measures
    that were implemented by the state department,
    especially by Breckinridge Long, usually
    through a weakness in the immigration law which
    gave the counsel at the scene the last right
    to say who would get a visa.
    The use of those devices, the use of screening devices,
    the use of a security psychosis to stop refugees
    from coming here.
    By 1940, it was more difficult to get a visa
    to enter the United States, which was not at war then.
    Great Britain, which was at war--
    [(film slating)
    [SLATE CLAPS]
    Let me get back to a moment of this question of the refugee
    visa policy.
    I said before that it is a classical case of democracy
    at work.
    The American people simply did not want more refugees here.
    And for Roosevelt to have thwarted that will,
    involved a political risk which he was not willing to take.
    And therefore, we developed what I have
    called a politics of gestures.
    For example, the combination of the Austrian and German quota
    in mid1938, after the Anschluss which
    involved the recognition of the Anschluss, but supposedly
    saved the Austrian quota.
    It may very well be that the Evian Conference itself--
    You will elaborate more on this because--
    Well, one of the things that--
    They should have add but they didn't do it.
    Yes.
    The recognition, I think in June of 1938,
    the combination of the Austrian and German quotas, in a sense
    unofficially extended the recognition to the Anschluss,
    to Hitler's annexation of Austria.
    But Roosevelt did it supposedly because if he had not,
    the Austrian quota would have been lost.
    And this was touted in the press as being one of the things
    that Roosevelt did to help the Jews and the refugees.
    Another thing was the extension of visitors' visas.
    Visas of people who were here for six months
    were allowed to stay in 1938.
    The most classic example of this politics of gestures
    may have been the Evian Conference itself.
    The reason why that invitation was extended
    is still a mystery to us.
    We don't really know what got into Roosevelt's mind.
    But a careful reading of the invitation
    shows how carefully hedged it was.
    It states that the American government
    has no intention of raising its quota system,
    or allowing immigrants to enter outside of it.
    And doesn't expect anyone else to do that either.
    How such a conference then could have hoped to succeed,
    no one knows.
    Except perhaps if Roosevelt had the idea
    that Latin America would then welcome them in mind.
    Of course, Latin America had the same reservations
    that the United States did.
    On the question--
    You mean that this was a policy of make believe?
    Of make believe, right.
    A policy perhaps designed to assuage and seduce
    the Jewish voting public that Roosevelt
    was doing something, when Roosevelt in fact
    was doing very little.
    It wasn't until much later, of course,
    that the Jews discovered that he was doing very little.
    Now the way that was done, outside
    of the politics of justice, was the enormous gap
    between what Roosevelt was saying
    and what was actually happening on the administrative level.
    Where men like Breckinridge Long, and the middle echelon
    people at the State Department, who actually had control--
    Breckinridge Long had a very powerful position
    inside the state department.
    He controlled the series, the potpourri of agencies,
    that were in fact the rescue program of America.
    If we can call it that.
    Now on that level--
    And the assistant of Long was Robert Borden Reams.
    Right.
    He was one of the assistants.
    Reams.
    And of course were many, many others.
    They were a whole series of them who--
    of course every Jewish mother knew that the State Department
    was not something that-- the foreign service was not
    something that you prepare a Jewish son for.
    Dentistry, yes, perhaps even a doctor or a lawyer,
    but not a career in the State Department
    because the State Department had a subtle anti-Semitism.
    William Dodd had actually pointed out that that was
    so, and Roosevelt himself did not trust the State Department
    and used it very often as a ploy so that researchers today still
    must go to the National Archives to examine what the State
    Department did, actually repeating the same trip that
    Jewish rescue advocates made during the war because we
    cannot get to Roosevelt directly.
    Now the use of the visa policy was very interesting,
    and let me read you a quote.
    A statement by Breckenridge Long,
    in a memorandum to James Dunn written on June 26 1940--
    And who was James Dunn?
    --in which-- James Dunn was a fellow official
    of the State Department, another undersecretary.
    And in which he describes exactly the policy
    he intends to follow.
    He says, we can delay and effectively
    stop for a temporary period of indefinite length
    the number of immigrants into the United States.
    We could do this by simply advising our consuls
    to put every obstacle in the way and resort
    to various administrative devices which would postpone,
    and postpone, and postpone.
    That is precisely what the State Department did,
    and it did so by the security gambit,
    by using the idea the Germans had infiltrated spies
    into the refugee stream.
    Although why they would want to be there, no one knows.
    It was a very unsafe stream.
    But nevertheless, that was done.
    A whole series of articles appeared in the press
    about German agents, and Roosevelt himself
    in a fireside chat talked about fifth columns
    and Trojan horses, giving vent to security psychosis
    so that by 1940 the security screening process in the United
    States was far more stringent than Great Britain, which
    was at war.
    That prevented refugees from coming.
    And the other thing, of course was the action of the councils.
    Now by 1938, Jews, after periods of respite
    when they did not believe what was happening to them,
    Jews in Germany finally understood
    that they had to get out.
    And long and chaotic lines formed
    in front of the consulates, and the wonderful--
    After the Kristallnact.
    After the Kristallnacht, right.
    Wonderful stories are told about something
    we call gallows humor, humor that is more bitter than funny,
    about the Polish Jew, the aus Juda en
    Stuttgart who finally gets the message
    and wants a visa for America.
    And he comes into the consulate, he's 78 years old,
    bent, walking with a cane, opens the glass doors,
    makes his way painfully up to the desk
    and addresses the American Council.
    I'd like a Visa.
    And the American Council says, where are you from?
    I'm from Poland.
    Goes to his desk and looks up the list.
    Poland?
    Come back in eight years.
    Which of course, was in a sense, a death sentence for him.
    The Jew accepts the message and makes his way painfully back
    to the glass doors in front of the consulate,
    and just before he gets to them he gets an idea.
    His head straightens up, and he makes his way back
    again painfully to the councils desks
    and tells him, when I come back in eight years,
    should I come back in the morning or in the afternoon?
    That was the bitter story of how Jews
    were accepted in front of the councils in 1938 and 1939.
    Now I want to just momentarily address myself
    to the whole question of Jewish power and have things changed.
    Of course a weak people loves to believe it's powerful,
    the Jews were the ones who created an all powerful God.
    It took a weak people to conceive of such a notion.
    We would win in heaven what we could never win on Earth.
    And the question of have things changed is fascinating.
    Today.
    Today, and contemporary.
    And I think in a sense things do look better
    because one of the factors that making
    for Jewish weakness in the 1930s has in fact given way,
    and that is the question of unity.
    The Holocaust itself has given Jews a bit of a lesson
    in the price of disunity, and that is something
    that we have experienced vicariously.
    Today only 15 and half percent of American Jewry
    is foreign born, we have been processed through America,
    through its schools, through its army,
    and we are more American than ever before,
    perhaps less Jewish as well.
    And the, of course, the other factor
    is that Israel and Israelism--
    and I don't say Zionism--
    has finally given Jews who are no longer able to accept fully
    a religious modality, a modern secular,
    perhaps a civil religion in which they can believe.
    So at least on the issue of Israel,
    which all political commentators have noticed,
    there is a modicum of unity and less division than ever before.
    Of course the price is that there's also
    the question of survival, more strongly
    today than ever before.
    Because as we become more secularized and more
    Americanized, the whole question of recognizing
    a common Jewish interest becomes problematic.
    But I think that at least one of the problems has lessened,
    and that is the problem of fragmentation,
    and disunity, and incoherence.
    Although one can still see ample evidence that it's so.
    We have been--
    Could we say-- excuse me-- could we
    say that there was something, let's
    say in the 1940s, something as a Jewish lobby today in America?
    In the 1940s?
    There were Jewish leaders who had access to the Oval Office.
    Roosevelt was very close to Brandeis for example,
    called him old Isaiah.
    And of course Stephen Wise, who made a political error
    by supporting Al Smith in 1928 much to Roosevelt's chagrin,
    and did not get back into the Roosevelt's good
    graces until 1934 when one of Roosevelt's key advisors
    passed from the scene.
    But he has been accused of being obsequious,
    and it wasn't until Silva came along with a love for Taft,
    for Senator Taft of Ohio, that the idea that Roosevelt was not
    doing enough and that the Jewish vote, and Jewish loyalty,
    and Jewish resources, and Jews as packagers and merchandisers
    of American politics--
    that those kinds of leverages could
    be removed, that the whole question
    of Jewish political power came up.
    I think that in the overall situation
    one must say that if one measures power
    by the number of options it opens up for a community,
    American Jewry was fairly powerless
    and is not much more powerful today.
    One of the problems, perhaps with the entire Middle East
    problem in American Jewry is that many people
    assign American Jewry a role which
    it is not able to fulfill because it does not
    have the power.
    And that is a rather strange thing to happen,
    because we have a lesson that what happened--
    the last Jewry that assigned us American Jewry
    responsibility, which it did not have the power to fulfill,
    paid for it with its lives in the sense.
    That is German Jewry.
    Yes.
    I want to say a word about philanthropy
    as one of the important and crucial blocks in a more
    effective response by American Jewry.
    Philanthropy.
    Philanthropy, of the idea of giving.
    Now, you know-- philanthropy, the idea
    that private organizations should finance and fund
    the new havens of the refugees, comes up again and again,
    as late as the Bermuda Conference.
    We find in the instructions of Breckinridge Long that
    he's saying, remember that we cannot pay for this,
    it must be paid by private agencies.
    Philanthropy has a special meaning for American Jewry,
    because it is the way American Jewry very often came to terms
    with its Judaism, by giving.
    A role, by the way, assigned to them first by the Zionists.
    American Jewry was viewed as a great service station,
    in which one could fill up with money and hopefully,
    with people eventually.
    We say that the currency of American Jewish history
    is currency.
    It's money.
    And yet, during the 1930s in the heart of the Depression,
    American Jewish philanthropy was badly strapped
    and could not really handle the enormous problem
    that the refugees posed.
    Not only was it not fully organized until 1938
    when the United Palestine appeal--
    New York (film slating)
    Well, eventually, what happened was, of course,
    that it was soon apparent that Jews were locked
    in to an age old tradition of solving problems
    by throwing money at it.
    And by 1938, it became apparent that the refugee problem
    was so enormous that private funding could not
    solve the problem.
    So it's an old way--
    The old way would not work.
    And yet, the Roosevelt administration and others,
    even the British Guiana proposal-- for example,
    in which Britain had preferred or proposed as a sop
    for the white paper--
    was to be funded by Jewish money.
    Yes, what is interesting is that all the attempts,
    all the political attempts of the States,
    whether it was American or British,
    in order to help the Jews, all of them
    said, we will not pay ourselves.
    The Jews have to pay--
    Precisely.
    Right.
    --exactly as the Jews are to pay for their own deportation.
    It's almost as if one can hear the Roosevelt administration
    and the British government resonating the same line that
    is coming from Berlin--
    the image that Jews have a great deal of money.
    And it really comes out when Roosevelt calls Morgenthau
    into his office to say, get me a list
    of the 1,000 richest Jews in the United States.
    I'm going to build a new United States of Africa.
    And the Jews will pay for it.
    Both sides fell so easily into the idea
    that there was, in fact, the great Jewish wealth
    that could bail out the Jewish problem.
    We could say that it was the same pattern.
    The same pattern.
    The same pattern that was--
    The same imagination, the same images
    of a rich, wealthy Jew that can assuage,
    that can solve the problem with its money.
    And it was the same pattern too I think in another way,
    because Hitler said, I don't want the Jews.
    But the Allies said, we don't want them, too.
    They have to be resettled.
    Yes.
    Elsewhere.
    The resettlement problem is really
    a part and parcel of that.
    But we come more closely to the idea
    of the centrality of money--
    you see, one of the fascinating things is that never far
    beneath the Nazi cosmology, that of which whose centrality
    was the Jewish question, was a well honed commercial instinct,
    as well.
    The idea of Jewish money.
    And that gives the Holocaust a kind of ghoulish symmetry.
    Because it begins with an offer to ransom the Jews of Germany
    and ends with an offer to ransom the Jews of Hungary.
    And throughout, we find private offers
    to ransom individual families.
    Now, that ransom proposal, the first one was very interesting
    because it posed a problem--
    an agonizing problem for the Jews of the world--
    which has to this very day not been resolved and leads
    to one of the most problematic factors in the whole discussion
    of the Holocaust.
    In the early months of 1939, much to Roosevelt's chagrin,
    George Rublee, who was his old friend from Groton,
    succeeded against all predictions
    in establishing contact with the Germans, with Schacht.
    And out of those--
    Schacht was a Finance minister
    --Hjalmar Schacht was finance minister and president
    of the Reichsbank, and his assistant, Helmut Wohlthat
    It's true that Schacht was then allowed to go by Hitler,
    on January 1st, 1939.
    And the negotiations were taken up by Goering.
    What was the exact nature of the negotiations?
    The question of how can German Jewry be gotten out of Germany.
    The question of penniless refugees, how much
    wealth could be gotten out--
    out of those three months of negotiations,
    which took place both in Berlin and London,
    came the so-called statement of agreement.
    A peculiar thing, a non recognized agency, an agent
    negotiating with a sovereignty about a group of Germany's
    own citizens, its Jewish citizens.
    Now, the plan is very complex.
    It was based on the Haavara agreement
    that was made with the Zionist agency in 1935.
    The Jews would act as forced salesmen for German capital
    goods, and in that way, would be able to bring out
    some of their money in the form of goods.
    And of course, the German economy
    would profit by the sale of capital machinery.
    This was the Haavara.
    Yes, and that was, of course, the key to the Schacht
    proposal, too.
    When Roosevelt heard the Schacht proposal
    and heard the mention of Jews, by the way,
    he was very chagrined and rather peeved
    that his friend, Rublee, had mentioned the unmentionable.
    He had mentioned what the Germans always talk about,
    and what the Roosevelt administration never
    talked about--
    Jews.
    That he had mentioned that --
    He mentioned the word "Jews".
    The euphemism "political refugees" had been applied,
    and no one ever mentioned Jews.
    In fact, one can go through all the documents
    and very rarely see the mention of the word Jews.
    While the Germans were concealing, well, talking only
    about Jews and converting Roosevelt himself
    to the Jewish faith, the Roosevelt administration
    was reconverting Jews to a bland category called "refugees".
    And so one could say that the Jewish question was ground
    to dust between a new terminology, which hid
    the question from public view.
    Even words like extermination--
    Even when the-- and of course, that key word
    there is, again, that the word "resettlement",
    which is used in the West as a solution to the Jewish problem
    and is used in Berlin as a solution to the Jewish problem.
    In a sense, both really mean the same thing--
    tucking away some despised minority
    in an equatorial rainforest in the West
    and in Germany, of course, for the Nazis, a processed killing
    operation and specially designed death camps using
    the most interesting managerial and productive techniques
    and even merchandising.
    But the problem that finally came out,
    the release of German Jewry by outside Jews
    who would, in a sense, ransom--
    and that was a proposition used by Dorothy Parker--
    Excuse me, excuse me, we must make these things more clear.
    Schacht exactly came with what proposal?
    Well, the proposal is complex.
    The money of the German Jews would
    be put into a trust fund and their property.
    And bonds would be based on that, which would then
    be bought by outside Jews.
    Now, the point is that in the Nazi fantasy,
    there was an outside Jewry that existed
    and was organized and had a presence on the money
    markets of the world that could, in fact, buy out--
    An international Jewry.
    An international Jewry, which is, of course, what
    their fantasy was about Jews.
    And they would buy out the German Jews
    by buying these bonds and by buying the capital machinery.
    In that way, Germany would solve its exchange problem,
    which would go to finance the--
    Goering's Four Year Plan to rearm Germany.
    And the Jews would have their Jews.
    The discussion that took place in London
    was bitter and agonizing, because it really
    encompassed a question of whether the Jews
    and Jewish leadership should cooperate
    in the destruction of a particularly
    splendid community in Germany.
    Should they cooperate in their own destruction?
    They did not yet know about the final solution.
    It is a question that comes up more fully after the war.
    Yes, the final solution--
    In other words, the whole question
    of whether the German, whether Jewry really cooperated, really
    took place, took part in its own destruction
    was really raised as early as 1939,
    over the question of ransoming German Jewry.
    And we were nonplussed.
    Let me read you a quote from--
    Where's the Jewish leaders that says
    a Jewish American leaders were they aware
    of this terrible problem in which--
    Yes, I want to read you that quote from Tenenbaum.
    Who was he?
    Tenenbaum was head of the Boycott Committee, who was very
    much opposed to the problem.
    Just a quote from this book, "in sounding this note, Tenenbaum,
    who later became a scholar of the Holocaust,
    urged Wise not to support the ransom proposal,
    lest such "procedures" make the Jewish victims
    agents of the Nazi government", which was precisely,
    of course, what the historiography
    of the postwar period is about and this whole question
    of sheep to the slaughter, did we cooperate.
    And a question comes up even before.
    In a sense, Jews were almost compelled and forced
    into this kind of problem, which is a part of the Holocaust
    which is not fully understood.
    That part of the question of powerlessness
    is being compelled to do these kinds of things
    that everything you touch in a sense turns--
    One can find the same ransom pattern
    all along the exterior of the story was extermination.
    Yes, well, do you cooperate with your own tormentors?
    Do you pay ransom for kidnapping?
    Should we have saved the German Jews?
    Right.
    This raid was really, really good.
    New York. (film slating)
    Hmm.
    Now, aside from the question of a Jewish leadership being faced
    with the proposition of having literally to remake
    Judaism to fit the Nazi image of it,
    in order to rescue the German Jews,
    there was another question, the escalation of the problem.
    Because Jews lived in an anti-Semitic world.
    In the wings stood the government of Poland,
    the government of Romania, and the government of Hungary,
    carefully watching whether the Germans would get away with it,
    whether Jews could, in fact, be sold
    to enrich the coffers, the treasury, of these countries.
    And that was an important consideration,
    which made the people negotiating in London
    decide to follow through with only a token agreement, much
    to the dismay of the German negotiators.
    And, of course, the entire proposition
    was interrupted by the outbreak of the war.
    There's one last question that we ought to then address.
    Was it possible, could we have done it?
    And I think a fair minded historian
    would say that the whole Schacht proposal ransom, which
    required a stable world and was supposed
    to take place over three to five years,
    was nonsense to begin with.
    There was no such stability in the world.
    It was just another scheme to get Jewish money
    from outside Jews.
    And if one had to make a judgment about the position
    of Jewish leadership in this point,
    one would not say that it betrayed.
    But they probably judged very carefully
    and were correct in not--
    [INAUDIBLE] they were--
    --in not cooperating with the proposal.
    Of course, the question of Évian is an excruciatingly important
    one.
    We don't know.
    We know that the conference was, in a sense, foredoomed to fail.
    There was no serious proposal, although, fascinatingly enough,
    a proposal comes from Trujillo to settle Jews
    in the Dominican Republic.
    It's one of the most comical stories of the Holocaust.
    Because, while the Germans are kicking Jews
    out of Germany and Austria and ultimately Czechoslovakia
    because they have bad blood, Jewish blood,
    a bacillus which will ruin the folk,
    Trujillo welcomes Jews to the Dominican Republic,
    not because he loves Jews, but because he
    thinks that white blood will improve
    the racial stock of the Dominican Republic, which
    is plagued by blackness.
    Even if this white blood is Jewish?
    Even if it's Jewish.
    So you see, no matter, in a sense, Jews cannot win.
    The question of blood makes the whole thing a circus.
    They have the wrong blood for Germany,
    the right blood for the Dominican Republic,
    and, of course, Myron Taylor may have been absolutely right.
    All the Jews really wanted was to live in a world that
    gave them no quota.
    They lived the classic paranoiac nightmare.
    They lived in a world that wanted to murder them
    and gave them no haven.
    So that they were little--
    Do you think that if, let's say, if at the Evian conference
    real openings for rescuing as a German Jewry,
    because, at the time, the only question was a German Jewry.
    Yes.
    Do you think that history could have
    changed, that these things could have taken another turn?
    That's an important question.
    And of course, we have a great difference about it.
    I believe that, had Évian worked,
    had the gates been opened, there is even a possibility
    of imagining that the whole decision to mass murder
    the Jews might not have been taken.
    I'm not saying that the Germans killed the Jews
    in a fit of absentmindedness.
    It was a deliberate and fanatic decision.
    But I'm saying that the failure in the initial phase,
    in the refugee phase, of the Germans--
    the Germans learned.
    We have a passage from Goebbels Diaries in 1940,
    in which he actually states that he believes underneath it all
    that the Allies are glad that they are finally getting
    rid of the Jewish riff-raff.
    The signals were to Germany, the silence of the pope,
    the inability of Roosevelt to act,
    the lack of courage of the International Red Cross,
    and all of the witnessing nations and agencies,
    that no one really cared.
    That they could get away with this under the cloud,
    under the cover of war.
    And of course, when that war broke out--
    so that the failure in the initial phase
    created the momentum, which carried through the killing
    phase.
    I think that some historians agree with me that it was
    in this phase that we failed.
    In that sense, the indictment against the witnessing nations
    is all the more terrible and horrendous.
    Because had a haven been offered,
    even a resettlement haven, this story
    might have been entirely different.
    Although, we don't know that for certain.
    But the Évian conference, of course,
    did open up the question of resettlement.
    And it became for Roosevelt, who was a great geographer,
    a wonderful stamp collector, and who fancied himself [INAUDIBLE]
    became the solution.
    There was something seductive about tucking away
    an unpopular pariah minority in some tropical rainforest
    where it could bother no one.
    The Jews--
    Like the migrations [INAUDIBLE] of population, too.
    And even suggested in October of 1939,
    in the meeting of the executive committee
    of the Intergovernmental Committee
    on Political Refugees, that they should
    think in terms of 10 million.
    This was October, a month after the war had broken out.
    And France and England were thinking
    of whether they would survive.
    He was telling them to think of the refugees.
    And of course, they were thinking of no such thing.
    Roosevelt imagined that some place
    in Africa they could be built a United States of Africa, which
    virtually recapitulated the American experience,
    even to the extent of having it under British sovereignty.
    He thought in these large terms, visionary,
    nowhere tied to the facts of the case.
    That the Jews were, in fact, an aging population with a good,
    perhaps as high as 60% of the population over 40.
    Certainly not a pioneering population.
    And those who could pioneer had already
    been siphoned off by the Youth Aliyah
    and by the Zionist movement, so that it was very, very
    difficult. And he hired and according to some,
    there may have been as many as 666 different resettlement
    proposals made during this conflict
    with Isaiah Bowman, who was introduced to him by his one
    close Jewish friend, Henry Morgenthau, the only Jew that
    would be accepted by Roosevelt's mother.
    He was a geographer, Isaiah Bowman.
    He was a geographer from Johns Hopkins University who
    had, by the way, almost no confidence at all that
    the idea of mass resettlement could work.
    But Roosevelt scoured the earth--
    Baja California, the Orinoco plateau in Venezuela,
    every African Republic, Mindanao.
    The British thought of British Guyana.
    In a sense, the key word became resettlement,
    and that word really requires our closest scrutiny.
    Resettlement became the single code word
    of the final solution.
    Yes, it was the same word used by the [INAUDIBLE]..
    And it really meant the same thing,
    because one could not resettle a people against its will.
    Where mass resettlement did work, as in Israel,
    as perhaps in Birobidzhan, or perhaps in the Crimea after
    World War I, or even in the Baron Roths --,
    Baron de Hirsch settlements in Argentina.
    It had to be in tandem with an idealism, a voluntary work.
    Otherwise, it was simply a movement of people,
    like so many cattle.
    What was done to the Greeks by the Turks,
    and the Turks by the Greeks after World War I--
    it was in itself a form of cultural genocide.
    In other words, resettlement could not have worked.
    And yet, one wonders.
    And it's one of the great arguments.
    Was is it possible in 1943, for example,
    was Bergson right to get the Jews out anyway,
    it didn't matter?
    The Zionists, of course, did not really prefer the resettlement.
    (film logistics)
    New York (film slating)
    Of course, there is no question that Roosevelt's pension
    and his fantasy about resettlement
    posed a special kind of problem for the Zionists.
    I think the rough estimate of how much it
    costs to resettle each Jew was about 2,400 pounds in Israel.
    These Zionists, perhaps in an ideologically heavy way,
    could not, of course, abandon Zionism and the idea of Zion.
    They could not conceive of an idea of a Zion
    without Zionism, or Zionism without Zion.
    The 1930s, because of the rescued drama of the pressure,
    really generated a whole new group of an ancient enemy
    that the Zionists thought they had gotten rid of by 1906,
    the so-called Territorialists.
    And, of course, the idea of resettlement
    was really a territorial idea.
    Just meant to resettle the people wherever it could be.
    Right, not in Palestine.
    And the Zionists were very much afraid of that idea.
    When Stephen Wise heard of the idea of making the former
    German colony of Tanganyika-- today Kenya, I think--
    a haven for Jews, he said "no" in 1939.
    That he would never want the Jews under German
    tutelage again.
    Because, of course, in 1939 there was an idea
    that the British had of perhaps giving Tanganyika back
    to Hitler as a sop, as part of the appeasement policy.
    By 1941, of course, he was singing a different tune.
    He would have accepted something other than Palestine.
    But for them, the idea of abandoning it
    was very, very, very strange, very difficult to accept.
    They fought it in the only way they knew.
    They thought that if the white paper had been pressed
    upon the Jewish people by British political fiat, then
    it would be--
    So the white paper was a--
    A British policy in May, 1939, of restricting land sale
    and immigration to Palestine taken right
    in the teeth of the crisis.
    I think it was Ben-Gurion who said, in 1943-- just
    to show you the dilemma it put the Zionists in,
    that they would fight the white paper as if there was no Nazis.
    And they would--
    New York (film slating)
    The question of resettlement, of course,
    did pose an enormous problem for the Zionists.
    It meant that resources that would ordinarily
    be focused on the issue would have to go
    to the question of rescue.
    The issue means the Jewish community in Palestine.
    In Palestine.
    Now, for the Zionists, the issue was the surest way
    of rescuing Jews.
    It seemed the logical answer to the problem,
    if only England had not curtailed immigration and land
    sales.
    And they had to believe, in a sense were compelled to,
    that if the white paper was pressed on to them
    by a political act, then it had to be undone.
    And at that time in '43 we find Ben-Gurion
    saying, we will fight the white paper,
    as if there was no Nazi Germany.
    And Nazi Germany, as if there was no white paper.
    That terrible duality-- a terrible problem of what to do.
    And yet, resettlement, which gave --
    disinterred the whole Territorialist question,
    we find Wise saying in November of 23rd,
    1938 after Kristallnacht-- we find
    him saying about Tanganyika, a former German colony,
    "I would rather have my fellow Jews die in Germany
    than live somehow, anyhow, in the lands which
    bear the imprint of yesterday's occupation
    by Germany, in lands which may tomorrow
    be yielded back to Germany."
    That was a rather grandiose, and I'm
    sure that had Wise heard it in 1943,
    he would not have made that statement.
    What to do?
    It may very well be that the charge
    or the indictment of the Zionists,
    that they were ideologically heavy.
    And that in the Biltmore conference
    and subsequently in the American Jewish conference,
    which was organized in 1943--
    They had to do something--
    In order to something--
    To excuse the people.
    They had, in fact, already written off the Jews
    and were thinking exclusively in terms of a national homeland
    after the war.
    Of the future.
    Of the future, right.
    And that may be so.
    And yet, one has to match that with the prognosis,
    with the possibilities of whether resettlement
    could have worked.
    I don't think that the question of the Zionist
    stand on mass resettlement really is an important one.
    It's a hypothetical question.
    The fact is, that there were no mass havens
    for Jews being offered, which could have been used.
    And that in order for mass rescue to work,
    we would have had to have mass resettlement, infiltration
    of individual Jews into existing societies,
    and a more liberal immigration policy in both Latin
    America and the United States.
    Now, the issue comes up in 1943 with the so-called Bergson
    Group, a group of Israelis in America
    representing the right wing, representing revisionists.
    Palestine Jews--
    Palestinians at that time, right, who do the unthinkable,
    as far as the Zionists are concerned, and therefore create
    a tremendous conflict.
    They separate the homeland issue from the rescue issue
    and, in fact, give priority to the rescue issue.
    For the Zionists, the two were on a continuum.
    Rescue was possible if Palestine could be opened.
    The revisionists argue that we cannot open up Palestine
    in time.
    Therefore, let us get out the Jews by any means.
    The Zionists, in a sense, make an error.
    Were they too heavy handed, were they
    too locked in to their own ideological proclivities,
    in this case?
    That question will be argued for years to come.
    But whether or not it could have worked in the end
    really depends on whether such havens could
    have been materialized in 1943.
    The truth is that no matter what decision
    the Zionists would have taken--
    It's a question of the heavens, it's a question of the people
    to put in, as a matter of fact.
    Yes.
    Could the Jews have pioneered?
    Could this have worked?
    Myron Taylor says in 1940, what the Jews really
    want is to be given their peace and live peacefully
    in settled societies.
    They do not really want to pioneer, except in Palestine.
    And I think that's a--
    They want to settle in societies--
    In settled societies, right.
    --And they don't want to be resettled.
    It's just completely true.
    That's very important.
    There's another question that I think
    was the key roadblock in the rescue situation.
    And that was the question of war aims and war priorities.
    If we look back to 1938, the Jews
    could not be welcome to the United States,
    because of things that we've already
    mentioned-- the restrictive legislation, anti-Semitism,
    the effects of the Depression, and so forth.
    After the war, that rationale changes.
    The Jews cannot, now, be rescued,
    because the fastest way to rescue Jews is through victory.
    When Wise pointed out--
    Because the World War broke out.
    Yes.
    The fastest way to rescue Jews, in other words,
    is through victory.
    And nothing can be done to interfere with that victory,
    including the rescue of the Jews.
    Now, when Wise points out that if this is so,
    the Jews will all be dead by the end of the war,
    there is no answer from Washington.
    And yet, to have challenged that idea
    that somehow the Jews required a special strategy, a change
    in the priorities of the war to make it,
    in fact, what Hitler had called it a war to destroy the Jews--
    that could not have been done, the changing of the war aims.
    Not a single one of the conferences that we have,
    which discussed war aims and war strategies from Argentia which
    produced the Atlantic Charter, to Tehran, to Yalta,
    ever discussed the idea that the rescue of the Jews
    should become a war aim.
    As a matter of fact, Stalin and Roosevelt
    were very careful not to make the war against the Nazis
    a war to save the Jews.
    Perhaps they knew instinctively that that would have interfered
    with the mobilization plans.
    With the Russians it became the Great Patriotic War,
    and for the Americans it became the Great Crusade.
    Nothing about Jews.
    The interesting thing is that only for the Jews
    is World War II the war against the Jews.
    Even today, the textbooks do not give the kind of priority,
    or follow the same priorities about the Holocaust, that
    were actually followed during the war.
    And that really brings up the question
    to whose history does the Holocaust really belong?
    And why didn't Roosevelt and Churchill and Stalin understand
    that what was going up in the chimneys of Auschwitz
    was a little bit of their own world?
    That it was only symbolically Jews,
    and that the lack of confidence and the lack of morale
    in the Western world today may have
    been lost somewhere in Auschwitz after what was happening.
    The things that the West produced to enhance life--
    production, technology, managerial techniques--
    were reversed to produce so many units of death per day.
    What else can be said but that Auschwitz is the modern world
    and its problems in microcosm?
    Are we are we becoming Musselmen in this sense?
    Does that tattooed forum really mean
    the bureaucratized, standing room only kind of world
    that we live in?
    Is that happening today?
    But leaders don't work on abstract philosophy.
    They work on a day to day reality.
    Roosevelt worked on the political reality of could he
    accept the refugees.
    And the answer was "no".
    The question was, could they survive?
    Until Stalingrad in February 1943,
    which marks the changing of the war,
    they were worried about their survival.
    They did not have that kind of a depth to imagine it.
    And if they came back today, they
    would not understand why Auschwitz has suddenly
    become the Auschwitz, not Malmedy,
    and not the beaches of Normandy, and not the Bataan Death March,
    but Auschwitz may, in fact, become
    the symbol of World War II.
    For who?
    Well, right now, perhaps, for the Jews.
    But I think ultimately, if we see it as the totalitarian
    microcosm that it really was, it may very well be
    that more and more people will realize
    that what happened in Auschwitz happened to everybody.
    That here is a different order of event,
    and that our lives can never be the same again.
    Now, that may be wishful thinking on my part.
    But there is reason to believe it.
    Of course, there are other theories about it, too.
    It may, in fact, have been an unimportant
    event that happened to an unimportant and vulnerable
    people.
    That's another way of looking at it.
    I personally don't think so.
    That's why I object to the so-called obscene analogy.
    Auschwitz is not Hiroshima.
    Although, one could argue that the components were the same--
    anonymous dying by fire, the use of technology, a race factor,
    also present in Hiroshima.
    But Auschwitz is different.
    Auschwitz is different, partly because it happened
    to a people that were different and were,
    in a sense, murdered for the difference.
    That's a key point.
    So that when we constantly bring up the Armenians and today
    the Cambodians, those are all interesting atrocities.
    And I do not take away the agony of them.
    But Auschwitz is something that has horrendous particularity.
    The question of the strategy of victory to save the Jews
    really put men like Stephen Wise in a bind.
    Let me read you something that Stephen Wise said
    at the introduction speech in the American Jewish Conference
    meeting in 1943, to show you how he was bound
    by this question of a war aims.
    "We are Americans", he says.
    "First, last, and all the time.
    Everything else that we are and have deepens,
    enriches, and strengthens if that can be our Americanism.
    As Americans, our first and sternest task
    in common with all other citizens of our beloved country
    and with all of the citizens of the United Nations
    is to win the antifascist war.
    Unless the war be won, all else is lost."
    Now, what had to happen for Jewish rescue is
    that a special case had to be made for Jews.
    The Nazi war machine was treating Jews specially.
    And to have said, "we want something special",
    would have meant to derail that thing.
    For Jewish leaders to argue this wouldn't--
    (film slating)
    There's no question that Wise is a tragic figure, in a sense--
    Stephen Wise, you mean?
    Yeah, Stephen Wise.
    Because he is, in a sense, locked in by his Americanism.
    That quote, "we are Americans first,"
    really tells the entire tragedy.
    To have intruded into the American War
    aims the additional and exceptional aim
    of saving Jews could have possibly been interpreted
    as a roadway away from a rapid victory
    and would have disinterred the whole question of loyalty.
    And that question was a bugaboo for Jews.
    There is another point too that one
    ought to make about Zionists and Zionism--
    in a sense, the fact that the Holocaust
    proved the Zionists so, so terribly right.
    It was a thing that Zionism could feed on had they not
    predicted that the diaspora was untenable for Jewry.
    And the figures were, of course, told
    in the increase in the membership of Hadassah
    and the general Zionist organizations in the United
    States from virtually nothing in the first decades
    of the 20th century, when after all Eastern Jews had voted
    with their feet to come to America and not to Palestine,
    to 1938, when the Zionist movement contained well
    over 100,000 members and had, in fact, become
    the center of gravity of American political life.
    And it had not become so because of the compelling nature
    of Zionist ideology about which American Jewry understood
    very little in any case.
    It had become so because the spatial idea,
    the idea of a Jewish refuge and Jewish sovereignty
    and Jewish power, had a compelling logic of its own,
    which paradoxically Hitler proved.
    And that was a fantastic thing for them too.
    So that the Zionists, in a sense,
    were caught by two kinds of things.
    One--
    They are themselves their own raison d'etats, as a matter
    of fact --
    Precisely.
    Which--
    They did not have to come to terms
    with what was really happening.
    Well, I think that problem will never really be resolved.
    What Zionists should have done on the question
    of territorialism and havens or whether the Bergson group,
    which had suggested a separation of the two was right,
    will have to be resolved at some future time.
    I would like, rather, to turn to the whole question of what
    happened when the news of the final solution
    was finally uncovered after the State Department's attempt
    to conceal it and what the State Department then did about it.
    And that really occurred in the early months of 1943
    when protests and public knowledge
    of the Holocaust and what was happening
    in Eastern Europe finally hit both British and American
    Jewry.
    It was Anthony Eden who came to Washington at that time
    and said that we must do something.
    The United States was originally in favor
    of having such a conference in Ottawa.
    And finally, the idea of a conference
    was suggested to be held on Bermuda, an interesting choice
    because Bermuda, an island in the Caribbean,
    was not accessible to the press and could be controlled.
    And the conference was held.
    And of course, it goes down in my book as, I call it,
    the mockery of the Bermuda Conference.
    And its irony is, of course, that precisely
    while the conference is being held,
    the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is occurring.
    It's the very day.
    The very day.
    Now, the conference is an amazing conference
    from two points of view in that the American delegation
    is ordered by Breckinridge Long in an agenda of what they
    can do to virtually do nothing.
    And it was this idea that nothing
    that could be suggested from, for example,
    the suggestion that a prisoner of war
    exchange for Jewish men in German camps be exchanged,
    or that the classification of certain Jewish inmates
    in concentration camps be changed to prisoner of war,
    a suggestion made by the world Jewish Congress even earlier,
    was not accepted.
    Instead, we find amazing little things happening.
    There is a great fear, for example,
    among the British, the British representative law,
    that suppose the Germans did follow through
    and did release a certain number of Jews.
    What would we do with these surplus people?
    Quote, "If Hitler accepted a proposal
    to release perhaps millions of unwanted persons,
    we might find ourselves in a very difficult position."
    What to do with the surplus people?
    Reams then interposed to say that there
    was no doubt whatever that the Department of State
    would oppose negotiations with Germany.
    This was, after all, a total war.
    And one does not negotiate with the enemy.
    And Breckinridge Long went even further.
    When it came to the question of sending
    packages, food packages, to the camps, he argued that to do so
    would be to mitigate, to help the German war
    effort, whose responsibility, after it was to feed
    those people in the camps.
    And he was opposed to that.
    There were other problems as well.
    Ships coming back from Europe were supposedly
    coming back empty.
    And at one point, the representative of the Jews,
    Mr. Backer, suggested that these empty hulls, these empty ships,
    could bring back Jews to the United States.
    But the American instructions were very, very clear.
    If and when prisoners were released,
    they should be resettled as close to their former homes
    as possible.
    In a word--
    Yes, you mean refugees.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Refugees or inmates of camps.
    They should be settled as close to their former places
    as possible.
    Which means nothing.
    Which meant, of course, nothing.
    Precisely.
    At the same time, the most fascinating part, of course,
    was that the instructions to the American delegation
    insisted on continuing to use the name political refugees.
    The instructions were very clear.
    No one is to use the term Jews.
    The problem was a problem not of race or of group
    or of ethnic group or something like that.
    It was not a problem of Jews.
    It was a problem of refugees.
    The old euphemism political refugees--
    the conference was held only because there
    was a Jewish pressure from both the--
    Right.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --American Jewry and the British Jewry in order to do something.
    Right, and yet, they would not.
    And that, by the way, continued well into April 1944
    when, finally, the immigration laws
    are circumvented, a step that was considered impossible
    in 1939.
    And a proposal to create temporary havens is accepted.
    Robert Murphy, the American, Roosevelt's agent
    in North Africa, is instructed by the State Department
    to seek refugees that were, in fact, already saved.
    And he's told to get quote, "a good mix," meaning,
    of course, not too many Jews.
    (film logistics - cut)
    (film slating)
    Just thinking back on the Bermuda conference today
    is an agony.
    How could it have been in the heart of 1943, when
    the death mills are grinding, two nations, the United States
    and Great Britain, get together, fully conscious of the fact
    that they are giving us up to an aroused Jewish public opinion
    that has just discovered that a processed mass murder
    operation of their co-religionist
    is occurring in Europe.
    It's just fantastic.
    And the juxtaposition of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
    with the Bermuda Conference makes it all the more dramatic.
    And yet, that is precisely what happened.
    A deliberate attempt to virtually do
    nothing, a continuation of the politics of gestures
    so that one can say that if the Evian Conference was part
    of Roosevelt's policy of gestures,
    the Bermuda conference is an extension of that
    and the addition of a cruel mockery, which it was actually
    called at the time by The Jewish Press.
    The instructions to the American delegation
    literally said, we will do nothing.
    Every suggestion.
    And the British aide memoire said the same thing.
    Let me read you some quotes from it.
    First of all, there was a continual--
    You [? look-- ?]
    (film slating)
    If the Evian Conference was a part
    of an extension of Roosevelt's politics of gestures,
    then the Bermuda conference was an even further extension
    of that and including, as well, a new element--
    a cruel mockery of what was happening in Europe.
    The invitation, the agenda, given
    to the American delegation and the British aide memoire
    to the British delegation at Bermuda,
    both were very clear in what they wanted.
    They wanted nothing.
    And to do that, they had to limit
    what the conference could do.
    And by very, very interesting process, they did exactly that.
    They, in effect, confronted not the question
    of what was happening in Hitler's death camps
    but to rescue those Jews that already
    found a precarious haven in such places
    as North Africa and Spain, not really addressing
    the problem entirely.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Because they were Jews who were already saved.
    Already saved, right.
    They were very much afraid of making
    the war a war to save the Jews.
    Listen to Breckinridge Long making certain in his diary
    that that would not happen.
    It might support Hitler's claim that we
    are fighting this war on account and at the instigation
    of our Jewish citizens.
    And that, of course, must not happen.
    It must not be made a war to save the Jews.
    And the British saying to their people,
    it cannot be treated as though it were a holy Jewish problem.
    The old euphemism that this was a refugee problem
    and had nothing to do with race or with Jews
    was continued in Bermuda.
    And it was to be continued until 1944.
    But why?
    If they didn't want to do anything,
    why did the conference take place?
    Probably as a sop to an aroused public opinion.
    It was done at the suggestion of the British.
    (film slating)
    If both British and American delegations
    were instructed to do nothing at the Bermuda Conference,
    why did the conference take place?
    That is the interesting paradox faced by both governments.
    It aroused public opinion, which required a response.
    And that, by the way, in itself is an interesting point
    because it indicates that if a public opinion had
    been aroused in the democracies, perhaps more might
    have been done.
    No leadership would have acted without such an opinion.
    And here, you have an example where it was.
    And yet, at the same time, the problem
    was to do nothing while appearing to do something.
    And that was done by a very interesting ruse,
    by simply instructing the delegations to confine
    the problem so that it would not even be
    focusing on a Jewish problem.
    Listen to the British aide memoire on that point.
    It cannot be treated as though it were wholly a Jewish
    problem.
    That is the points that would be handled at Bermuda.
    Giving preference to one group would
    raise enormous criticisms or the American delegation
    receiving instructions from Breckinridge Long.
    If we handle the Jewish problem exclusively,
    it might be of assistance to the Nazi fascist propaganda, quote
    unquote, who all along, talking about the possibility
    of bringing up a Jewish question exclusively again,
    quote, people might think that we are fighting
    this war on account and at the instigation
    of our Jewish citizens.
    And that was one thing that--
    Unbelievable.
    --that had to be avoided.
    So that when we come along to it,
    we get every single point rejected
    by the Bermuda delegation.
    Packages to food camps would relieve
    Hitler of an onerous burden of feeding the inmates, as
    if they weren't being killed.
    The possibility of exchanging Jews as prisoners of war
    could not be discussed.
    Even the question of perhaps entering
    into negotiations with Berlin--
    On this question.
    --on this question could not be handled.
    Listen to Borden Reams, part of the American delegation,
    talking about that.
    And if I could just find that here.
    He is saying, on the question of rescue
    through victory, which was the only point
    that the American delegation could handle
    with some confidence, it would quote, not only be foolish,
    it would be criminal to negotiate with the Nazis.
    And this was a point kept throughout.
    So one by one, every possible point
    of rescuing those people who needed rescue instead of those
    who had found a precarious haven in refugee camps
    in Spain and North Africa was discounted.
    And finally, the Bermuda Conference
    came to the one conclusion that Breckinridge Long
    wanted it to come to--
    that is, to disinter the Intergovernmental Committee
    on Political Refugees, which was originally created of Evian
    and which had done nothing except to clutter the rescue
    effort and was itself a reflection of the lack of will
    to rescue, to disinter that to once again start the movement.
    And so shameful was the performance of both Britain
    and the United States at Bermuda that the conferees
    wisely and practically decided not to issue a press release.
    And that, perhaps, was a mistake because it
    was this very neglect that alerted Jewish public opinion
    that something awful, something horrendous
    had happened at Bermuda.
    That is, nothing had happened at Bermuda
    in the midst of the slaughter.
    And it was from this point on that an alert Jewish opinion
    finally brings enough public pressure
    to get a congressional hearing on the whole question
    of rescue.
    In November, Breckinridge Long is
    called in an executive session to
    that congressional committee, which is really
    holding hearings on the possibility of creating
    a commission on rescue.
    And Long suffering from nervous tension,
    perhaps, and suffering from other things, vastly
    exaggerates the number of Jews admitted to the United States.
    Every delegation, by the way, is always
    citing, almost as a litany, what the United
    States has done for refugees.
    Yes.
    And he exaggerates the figure.
    The figure is publicized in The Jewish Press.
    And Long is finally recognized, as Emanuel Celler and others
    have already recognized him, as being the man who
    singlehandedly has fed Roosevelt certain information
    and has singlehandedly taken it upon himself to stop
    the entrance of Jews into the United States.
    His fingers are removed, his hand
    is removed from the rescue levers.
    And in late December, Henry Morgenthau
    is activated as a result of monitoring the--
    Yes, this led to the creation of the War Refugee--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --of the War Refugee Board.
    I think that at Bermuda too, they were --
    what is extraordinary when one goes
    into the details is how cynical they were because--
    Yes.
    --what they imagined, was that Hitler can change his policies
    They are scared to death.
    Yes, for example, on this question
    of what should happen if Hitler, if the Germans,
    would actually agree to exclusion.
    And this is in the British aide memoire again.
    There is a possibility that the Germans or their satellites
    may change over from a policy of extermination to one
    of extrusion, of sending out the refugees.
    If that should happen.
    Not -- this means not to kill everybody.
    Not to kill them but to actually comply with what we want,
    the rescue of the Jews.
    If Hitler-- and this is a quote, "If Hitler accepted a proposal
    to release perhaps millions of unwanted persons,
    we might find ourselves in a very difficult position."
    What would we do with the Jews?
    A problem that was to continually plague
    both the British and the United States.
    Yes.
    What would we do?
    In a sense, one might almost say that the Germans,
    in their final solution, were solving
    a problem for the Western world as well, for the Allied world.
    Every Jew killed in a death camp in the East
    meant one less Jew required a haven in the West.
    Yes, yes.
    An interesting tandem.
    The conclusion to resurrect the IGC, of course,
    is the completion of that mockery.
    And that--
    This is the International--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    the Intergovernmental Committee on Refugees.
    Intergovernmental Committee of--
    That was Breckinridge Long's idea--
    --Refugees.
    --originally stated in the original instructions
    to the American Delegation.
    Yes, but what is extraordinary for [INAUDIBLE] is the time
    they spent in discussing how to get some people coming from
    North Africa, people as we said--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Finally, of course, they--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --which are already saved.
    Ultimately, that's what they came out
    with-- the idea of, perhaps, temporary havens, which
    was finally suggested by a columnist of The New York Post
    Samuel Grafton, who used the argument, if oranges
    or carrots can be temporarily put on an American pier
    awaiting trans shipment without a visa,
    why couldn't people have done the same thing?
    Roosevelt found the argument so compelling
    that he used it, ultimately, to become more the lion
    than the fox and to circumvent the rules
    and to build that refugee camp at Oswego, in which 983--
    Oswego, where is it?
    In--
    In New York State.
    In the center of New York?
    Yeah, right, and which was very cold.
    Many of the refugees did not like it,
    coming from Italy and from North Africa.
    And 983 refugees.
    A good mix, Roosevelt demanded from his agent
    Robert Murphy in North Africa, lest we
    think that only Jews were in the refugee stream, was required.
    And that, finally, marked another great victory,
    a victory that unfortunately came
    when the overwhelming portion of European Jewry
    was already in ashes in April of 19--.
    Actually, in July of 1944, we finally
    did circumvent the immigration laws,
    which, in 1939, were considered immutable, that they could not
    be.
    So things had changed.
    But they changed much too slowly.
    And as Stephen Wise had pointed out,
    by the time, if we comply with the rescue
    through victory gambit strategy, there
    will be no Jews left to enjoy that victory.
    And of course, he turned out to be absolutely right.
    And do you think that the creation of the War Refugee
    Board at the beginning of 1944 changed basically these things?
    Well, I would say that in the final tally,
    we would have to say that at least the Jews of Budapest,
    who were saved, the less than half of Hungarian Jewry
    that was saved, owes its lives, in some degree,
    to the War Refugee Board because, at that time,
    the separate components of the rescue effort,
    of all the witnessing nations, of all the neutral nations,
    were brought together.
    Raoul Wallenberg was brought to Budapest.
    The delegations at the embassies' staffs
    were increased.
    And money was filtered into the underground in Hungary,
    so that at least these Jews were saved.
    But even here, the problem was a difficult one.
    It came too late, as Leon Kubowitski
    the rescue agent of the World Jewish Congress,
    said, too little and too late.
    Yes, yes.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    If we could have had the War Refugee Board in 1943 or 1942,
    it would have made all the difference in the world.
    OK well, precisely.
    This was not the case.
    Now, say what you want to say about Auschwitz.
    Oh, about bombing.
    I just want to say a word about bombing.
    I don't think we can get it all in here.
    Bombing has become a central point
    in the contemporary dialogue on the Holocaust.
    And where everyone goes in the magazines
    and in Holocaust conferences, everyone
    is talking about bombing.
    And of course, it's understandable
    because bombing is a simple and clean way
    to have saved the Jews in the absence of physical control
    of the slaughter.
    Interdiction from the air might have saved the Jews.
    And it has a compelling logic.
    And yet, a jaundiced observer might look at it
    with a different point of view.
    There is something seductive about the conclusion
    that bombing of Auschwitz could have saved the Jews.
    No doubt, though--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    (film slating)
    Bombing is so fascinating a question
    because it encompasses, in one small idea,
    all the problems of the witness.
    It simply required a very minor change
    in war priorities and strategies to bomb Auschwitz.
    And what has been argued is that by the spring of 1944,
    when the 15th Air Force of Italy could already bomb,
    why wasn't that done?
    And of course, the memorandum that
    came back from both the American and British
    Joint Chiefs of Staff was that it would, in fact, interfere
    with the winning of the war.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    It was of doubtful efficacy.
    And it has been argued that if the airplanes were bombing
    so close to Auschwitz already, perhaps five miles east
    of Auschwitz, to the Buna synthetic oil works,
    why could they not they have bombed the rail lines
    and the death machine itself?
    It's an interesting question.
    And of course, Auschwitz was not the only death camp.
    And the Germans had a very fast way of fixing rail lines.
    And the spring of 1944 was a rather late time
    to consider such a question.
    And the more interesting question
    is that the new theories do not really
    come to grips with the other part of the reason
    given by allied commanders for not bombing Auschwitz, which
    was the fear of the escalation of terror.
    And indeed, the Germans could have escalated terror.
    They had thought of Auschwitz.
    They could think of lynching American air crews
    or bringing POWs to the bomb sites and so forth.
    The more interesting question is why didn't the Jewish rescue
    advocates pick up the theme suggested
    by the governments in exile in December of 1943
    for retaliatory bombing?
    The bombing of Hamburg in July of 1943 in retaliation
    for Auschwitz might have lifted that curtain of silence that
    made the question of getting Auschwitz
    believed so difficult. It's even reasonable
    to suppose that perhaps more rational Nazis in the hierarchy
    might have come to the conclusion
    that Auschwitz was not worth the bones of a single German city.
    At least the question would have been opened up.
    And yet, we find that in March of 1943,
    the rescue advocates in their 12-point program at the Madison
    Square Garden rally did not pick up
    the question of retaliatory bombing, which might have
    been a much more effective way.
    Not even a question of retaliatory bombings.
    The bombings took place.
    It was enough to say, we bombed--
    Yes, to say--
    --because of the Jews.
    Right.
    And the Germans--
    OK.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    As a matter of fact, Goebbels, had already made that link
    and had prepared a counter-atrocity campaign
    in case the Allies used that argument.
    And yet, it was never used.
    And therefore, the credibility problem,
    the problem of getting believed of what
    was really happening never really
    broke out into the public.
    And without such a discussion, the question
    of rescue and stopping the slaughter
    became much more difficult.
    And here is one of the keys to the whole problem of why rescue
    had such a dismal showing-- not only the absence of will
    but the absence of mind in many cases too.
    And the mind not only of men like Roosevelt
    but the mind of our own rescue advocates.
    We simply did not think about it.
    Kubowitski himself was opposed to the bombing of Auschwitz
    because he felt that Jewish inmates should not
    be the first to suffer from allied bombings.
    I know.
    I know the argument.
    But what is worse than to die in a gas chamber?
    Yes.
    Of course, the question of doubtful efficacy,
    for the Jews, it meant, what greater atrocity?
    What greater cruelty at Auschwitz
    could have happened for Jews?
    I am hard pressed to say.
    But of course, the decision makers were not Jewish
    and did not think in those terms.
    The priorities were priorities.
    And the truth of the matter was that Jews did not
    have the power to change them.
    The Jewish question was a minor question in World War II.
    Only for Jews was it the main question.
    Yes.
    And we will see, 10 years from now,
    whether it remains that way.
    Are we still filming?
    [INAUDIBLE] [? not ?] [? supposed ?] [? to ?]
    [? talk-- ?]
    (film logistics - cut)
    (film logistics)
    (film slating)
    The growing popularity of the bombing question
    is really very understandable because it
    contains, in one simple act, the possibility of saving Jews.
    It's almost a question that comes out of our despair.
    Here was a way.
    And we did not use it.
    And yet, when one really thinks about it,
    one wonders if it's true.
    One is reminded that the Einsatzgruppen, for example,
    that operated behind the German lines after June 1941,
    killed at a much faster rate and without the technology
    of an Auschwitz.
    One is reminded how quickly the Germans
    were able to repair rail lines.
    And one is reminded that Auschwitz was not
    the only death camp.
    And yet, it goes without saying that bombing the rail lines
    and bombing Auschwitz would, in fact, have saved
    many Jews in the sense that at least the Germans or the Nazis
    might have known that the Allies opposed it.
    And yet, it came so dreadfully late in the war
    that one wonders if it really made a difference.
    It was suggested--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Excuse me.
    If I could cut you, I have to object about what you say.
    First of all, in 1944, Auschwitz was the only death camp.
    Treblinka didn't exist.
    Belzec didn't exist.
    Sobibor didn't exist.
    There was Chelmno, yes, which was--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --at this time.
    --massive dying in other camps.
    And perhaps not an organized death operation.
    It was not the same, but--
    Well, do you have the figures which
    balance the amount of dying, let's say,
    through typhus at the end of 1944
    in Ravensbruck as compared to the ovens used up
    to November in Auschwitz?
    I would dare say that, probably, there
    was more death outside of Auschwitz,
    outside of the organized process,
    than there was within it.
    But that's really a minor point.
    Auschwitz as a symbol, of course, is very important.
    It would have saved a great number of Hungarian Jewry.
    My point is not that the bombing would not have done some good.
    I think it would have done some good.
    My point is simply this--
    that at the end of the war, and we
    learned this from Albert Speer and from the evaluations
    of the bombing by John Kenneth Galbraith,
    that the whole saturation bombing campaign, which
    began in 1943, did not really prevent the German war
    economy from being mobilized.
    And it was mobilized, by the way,
    in a very late date, only in 1944.
    What I am saying is that when the governments in exile
    suggested to the British that the question ought
    to be retaliatory bombing, not necessarily for Jews,
    that that might have had an even greater effect
    and was really a much simpler thing to do.
    Meanwhile, the saturation bombing
    of German cities in 1943 has almost no meaning.
    We know, today, from the diaries of Goebbels
    and from the instructions of Himmler,
    that they, in their minds, had already
    associated the bombing of German cities with a Jewish plot,
    as they were wont to do.
    That was part of their imagination.
    And Goebbels had already prepared
    a counter-atrocity campaign in case such a link was made.
    Now, if the bombing of Hamburg or the bombing of Schweinfurt
    in the spring of 1943 was announced as a retaliatory act,
    it might have opened up the whole question of Auschwitz
    and raised that curtain of silence.
    But why was not done so?
    This is the question.
    Well, why didn't the 12-point rescue program of March 1943
    not do this?
    Well, it's an interesting question of why we did not.
    Maybe the Jews or rescue advocates
    were not really accustomed to military strategy.
    It required such a minor change.
    It didn't even require a change in military strategy
    and military priorities to make such an announcement, simply
    a question of psychology of war.
    And yet, it was not done.
    And as I suggest, it's a failure of mind
    as well as a failure of [INAUDIBLE]..
    Because this was specifically asked by the Jews of Warsaw
    in September, October 1942.
    Well, the reason why it wasn't done,
    of course, was the reason I never came to,
    was in the second part of McCloy's note--
    that bombing would have created an even greater terror,
    a greater escalation of terror, than already existed.
    Now for Jews, of course--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    --what greater escalation of terror existed?
    We don't know.
    It is a joke.
    But it was a very real fear of getting
    involved in this kind of who can do more?
    And it simply did not w --
    And the second part of McCloy's note,
    which [? Weimann ?] does not deal with,
    actually states that as a reason.
    And that was the reason given in 1942
    for not announcing that the bombing of German cities
    was in retaliation.
    It would have been against war policy.
    It would have made the war, World War II, the Great
    Patriotic War, a war to save the Jews,
    and that's precisely what could not be done.
    Yes, OK, this means one was not supposed to kill Germans
    in order to save Jews.
    Right.
    And that's really where the failure came in.
    This is a real point.
    Yes, so I'm not saying that bombing of Auschwitz
    would not have saved Jews.
    I think it would have saved Jews and should have been done.
    But I'm thinking there was even an easier way to do it.
    And that was to pick up the whole theme of bombing,
    of saturation bombing, earlier, which, as it stands now,
    the Germans are beginning to say is a separate atrocity.
    Dresden is becoming the equivalent of Auschwitz.
    And Dresden really does not make sense
    without looking at it in terms of Auschwitz.
    That is also part of the obscene analogy.
    And why it was not picked up in Madison Square Garden program,
    it's very difficult to say, except that the Jews
    were not a military people and did not think in these terms.
    Food packages to camps, yes.
    Exchange of prisoners, yes.
    Bombing?
    Interestingly enough, when Horthy did finally
    stop the deportations in July, he
    did so after a raid on Budapest on June 3,
    which shows that at least in the satellites, which
    were particularly sensitive to quid pro quos,
    it could have worked.
    It was not the bombing of Auschwitz
    that stopped the deportations from Hungary.
    It was the bombing of Budapest, the rail lines in Budapest.
    And that is an important point.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    There is a lot of noise which is made today about this.
    Of course, one can be one can be bright from hindsight.
    But at that time, we didn't think of it.
    I say, a failure not only of will.
    Not a crisis of will-- a failure of will.
    But also a failure of mind.
    Just didn't understand the Nazi mentality.
    I mean, there are those wonderful, wonderful documents
    would indicate that the Hungarians are worried,
    that Hungarian Americans will be tortured
    if they torture the Jews.
    That's the way they're thinking.
    And of course, we're not thinking anything of the kind.
    We are taking Hungarian Americans
    and putting them on the radio to shortwave broadcasts
    to Budapest to say, don't let the gendarmerie cooperate
    in the deportation of the Jews, as if that mattered,
    instead of saying to them, if you touch the Jews,
    you will be punished after the war.
    And remember, we have lots of Hungarians.
    The language that the criminal understood, they could not.
    What did Clyde Kluckhohn call it?
    He called it culture-bound thinking.
    Just could not get beyond that.
    OK.
    Well, I think--

    Overview

    Description
    Henry Feingold, author and professor of American Jewish History and Holocaust Studies, discusses, in an interview with Claude Lanzmann, the American response to the Holocaust with particular importance on the failure to admit refugees and to create a resettlement option.

    FILM ID 4606 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 145-148
    146 (01:00:43) Claude Lanzmann and Henry Feingold sit at a cluttered office table, in Feingold’s New York City apartment. Feingold begins by discussing the unique and even affluent status of American Jewry as an ethnic group during the 1930s. He then raises the question why American Jewry was not able garner support from the Roosevelt Administration to act on the rescue issue, particularly provided that several Jews were in Roosevelt’s inner circle. He says that the several Jewish communities that existed in the United States during this period were divided on the approach to tackle the crisis. (01:02:34) Lanzmann questions Feingold to clarify the terms Uptown and Downtown Jews. Feingold explains that it is an old classification that differentiates the original Jewish migration that moved to the West side known as Uptown Jews and the new arrivals known as the Downtown Jews. (01:03:55) Discusses shtadlanut as a traditional form of soft diplomacy and how the American Jews formed a Kehila. Points out that American Jewry had a degree of power that gave them responsibility, but to claim American Jews betrayed European Jews is unjust. (01:07:55) Discusses that that the “spirit of civilization” was not mobilized by Jews.

    147 (01:10:30) Discusses the common, antisemitic illusion that Jews held excessive power within society and aspired to ‘rule the world’ which Feingold rebukes by claiming the Holocaust is the surest evidence that it is indeed just an illusion. (01:12:10) Further discusses the “Jewish love affair with Roosevelt” and notes that although American Jews had political leverage, it was a disproportionate amount unable of changing major policy. Claims that the American Jewry treated not as badly as other ethnic minorities such as the Germans and the Irish from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. (01:15:30) Lanzmann then questions if American Jewry was afraid of antisemitism in the 1930s. Feingold explains how this brings up the underlying topic of what power American Jewry really had during this period. Claims that antisemitism coupled with isolationism and the followers of Charles Lindbergh legitimized the anti rescue and anti refugee view of the general American public. (01:18:56) Feingold adds that it should also be noted that the American Jewish community in 1938 was American first then Jewish, thus at times more concerned with domestic issues. (01:19:34) He explains from a bureaucratic level that the State Department led by Breckinridge Long made it extremely difficult to obtain a United States visa in 1940.

    148 (01:20:43) Feingold touches on Roosevelt and the refugee issue further with the notion of “politics of gesture”. (01:21:50) He provides the example of the Evian Conference where none of the attending countries had the intention of raising refugee quotas. He explains it was a policy intended to seduce the the Jewish voting public and that in reality did little to help the European Jews. (01:24:30) Discusses James Dunn who was an undersecretary at the State Department who is quoted to have had the power of indefinitely postponing immigrant entrance into the United States. He explains that a common narrative used by the State Department and even Roosevelt was that German spies had infiltrated the refugee stream. (01:25:55) Describes American consulates in 1938 and 1939 as unreceptive to issuing European Jews visas. Gives one example of a Polish Jew who is told to come back in eight years with another request. Says that today as it was then, the American Jewry is powerless based on the lack of options open to the community.

    FILM ID 4607 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 149,151,153
    149 (02:00:18) Discusses the ‘very’ American idea of philanthropy and how it was often associated to Jews and money.

    150 (02:02:45) He explains that the stereotype of Jews being wealthy was shared among Nazi Germany, Great Britain, and the United States. (02:02:54) He adds that Roosevelt is quoted wanting a list of 1,000 of the richest Jews in the United States to pay for a new “United States of Africa”. Says that many believed Jewish wealth could bail out the Jewish problem. (02:06:20) Explains how the Roosevelt Administration prefered the euphemized term “political refugee” in place of Jew. Adds that one proposal of getting money out of the German Jewry pioneered by finance minister Hjalmar Schacht was to use the German Jewry as ransom.

    151 (02:14:40) Makes a key point on if there had been a successful resettlement effort, then perhaps history would be different. Discusses how the initial phase of inaction by world leaders to save the Jews propelled Nazis to carry out the Holocaust.

    152 (02:17:30) Feingold goes on to discuss different resettlement ideas ranging from Alaska to Tanganyika in Africa that were disliked by Zionists. (02:20:50) Discusses the emergence of the group referred to as “territorialists” which was an ancient enemy to Zionists.

    153 (02:25:45) Discusses how the 1943 Bergson group separated the homeland issue from the rescue issue and gave priority to the rescue issue. Further explains how the revisionists viewed resettlement broadly as the Zionists were exclusive to Palestine. (02:27:34) Explains from the Allied point of view the fastest way to save the Jews was through victory and nothing could impede that including rescue attempts, thus, the rescue of the Jews was never a war aim. Further discusses the importance of the Holocaust in World War II and how its effects reached beyond just Jews.

    FILM ID 4608 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 154-158, 160 Coupe
    154 (03:01:00) Discusses the growth of Zionism in response to the Holocaust. (03:07:40) Describes the Bermuda Conference in 1943 which Feingold describes as a “mockery conference”.

    155 (03:08:30) Describes the conference as a continuation of Evian and the “politics of gesture” where there was a deliberate attempt to do nothing to help the Jews.

    156 (03:10:00) Claims that at the Bermuda Conference, the U.S. and British delegates agreed to ‘rescue’ Jews from North Africa rather than Hitler’s death camps. Explains that the Allies did not want the war to appear to be about the Jews. (03:10:50) Describes the old euphemism of a refugee problem compared to the Jewish problem.

    157 (03:13:10) Explains that food could not be sent to the camps because it was viewed as the Germans’ obligation to feed the prisoners and that negotiations with Berlin were never considered an option because it would be viewed as “criminal” to negotiate with Nazis. (03:15:10) Claims that since a press release was not released from the Bermuda Conference, Jewish public opinion became more concerned and active which resulted in action from congress. (03:17:20) Describes that in a sense with the Final Solution, the Germans were solving a problem for the Western world of what to do with the Jews. States that “every Jew killed in a death camp in the East meant one less Jew who required a haven in the West”. (03:18:40) Discusses Roosevelt and the push to devise the refugee center in Oswego, New York. Assess the efficacy of the War Refugee Board particularly with the Jews of Budapest.
    (03:21:35) Discusses the concept of bombing Auschwitz. Explains reasons given by the Allies for choosing not to bomb such as the creation of a greater terror.

    158 (03:23:00) Further explains that the bombing of Auschwitz was viewed as “doubtful in efficacy” even though Allied planes were bombing other sites five miles away. (03:24:30) Discusses in March 1943 that the rescue advocates with their twelve point program at Madison Square Garden failed to raise the idea of retaliatory bombing.

    160 (03:26:50) Camera turns to Lanzmann.
    Duration
    01:30:00
    Date
    Event:  1979 February
    Production:  1985
    Locale
    New York, NY, United States
    Credit
    Created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of "Shoah," used by permission of USHMM and Yad Vashem
    Contributor
    Director: Claude Lanzmann
    Biography
    Claude Lanzmann was born in Paris to a Jewish family that immigrated to France from Eastern Europe. He attended the Lycée Blaise-Pascal in Clermont-Ferrand. His family went into hiding during World War II. He joined the French resistance at the age of 18 and fought in the Auvergne. Lanzmann opposed the French war in Algeria and signed a 1960 antiwar petition. From 1952 to 1959 he lived with Simone de Beauvoir. In 1963 he married French actress Judith Magre. Later, he married Angelika Schrobsdorff, a German-Jewish writer, and then Dominique Petithory in 1995. He is the father of Angélique Lanzmann, born in 1950, and Félix Lanzmann (1993-2017). Lanzmann's most renowned work, Shoah, is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. He began interviewing survivors, historians, witnesses, and perpetrators in 1973 and finished editing the film in 1985. In 2009, Lanzmann published his memoirs under the title "Le lièvre de Patagonie" (The Patagonian Hare). He was chief editor of the journal "Les Temps Modernes," which was founded by Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, until his death on July 5, 2018. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/claude-lanzmann-changed-the-history-of-filmmaking-with-shoah

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Genre/Form
    Outtakes.
    Film Format
    • Master
      • Master 4606 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4607 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4606 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4607 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4606 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4607 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4606 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4607 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4606 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 4607 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 4606 Film: positive - 16 mm - b&w - workprint
      Master 4608 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - sound - acetate - workprint
      Master 3565 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3565 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3565 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3565 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3566 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3566 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3566 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3566 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3567 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3567 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3567 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3567 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3568 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3568 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3568 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3568 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3569 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3569 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3569 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3569 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3570 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3570 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3570 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3570 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3571 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3571 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3571 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3571 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3572 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3572 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3572 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3572 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3573 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3573 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3573 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound
      Master 3573 Audio: Audiotape (reel-to-reel) - 1/4 inch - magnetic - sound

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    You do not require further permission from the Museum to access this archival media.
    Copyright
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel
    Conditions on Use
    Third party must sign the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's SHOAH Outtakes Film License Agreement in order to reproduce and use film footage. Contact filmvideo@ushmm.org

    Copyright Holder
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    Yad Vashem
    State of Israel

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Film Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the Shoah outtakes from Claude Lanzmann on October 11, 1996. The Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection is now jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem - The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority.
    Note
    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating survivors, perpetrators, and eyewitnesses for his nine and a half hour film Shoah released in 1985. Without archival footage, Shoah weaves together extraordinary testimonies to render the step-by-step machinery of the destruction of European Jewry. Critics have called it "a masterpiece" and a "monument against forgetting." The Claude Lanzmann SHOAH Collection consists of roughly 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming.
    Film Source
    Claude Lanzmann
    File Number
    Legacy Database File: 5786
    Record last modified:
    2024-02-21 08:04:43
    This page:
    http:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn1004817

    Additional Resources

    Transcript (English)
    Time Coded Notes (3)

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    Also in Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating and interviewing survivors, perpetrators, eyewitnesses, and scholars for the nine-and-a-half-hour film SHOAH released in 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the archive of SHOAH outtakes from Mr. Lanzmann on October 11, 1996, and have since been carrying out the painstaking work necessary to reconstruct and preserve the films, which consist of 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming. The collection is jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. SHOAH is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. It weaves together extraordinary testimonies to describe the step-by-step machinery implemented to destroy European Jewry. Critics call it “a sheer masterpiece” and a “monument against forgetting.”

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Film

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz was a Pole who ran a pharmacy within the confines of the Krakow ghetto, refusing the Germans' offer to let him relocate to another part of the city. He aided Jews by providing free medication and allowing the pharmacy to be used as a meeting place for resisters. FILM ID 3220 -- Camera Rolls #1-2, 3-4, and 5-7 01:00:09 CR 1,2: Lanzmann and Pankiewicz stand in a Krakow street. They spend most of the interview in different parts of the Plac Zgody (now Plac Bohakerow Getta), from which Jews were deported from the Krakow ghetto. They begin walking. Pankiewicz tells Lanzmann that in 1941 he got the order to run a pharmacy within the ghetto. The Germans first required him to prove that he was not Jewish. From the window of his pharmacy he could see all the deportations from Plac Zgody and the horrible treatment meted out to the Jews. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz to describe exactly what he saw. They are standing on Targowa street, the street where the Jews were gathered for deportation, and where Pankiewics's pharmacy was situated. White screen with some audio from 01:03:16 to 01:04:02. The first slate says "Warsaw" but the interview is clearly in Krakow. CR 2 Lanzmann and Pankiewicz are sitting outdoors on a bench on Plac Lwowska in front of a constuction site (construction of a tram line?). Lanzmann says that an Aryan-run pharmacy in the ghetto was one of a kind. Pankiewicz says that he lived at the Apotheke, because he had to be available day and night. He says that after the liquidation [in March 1943], when the Jews would come from Plaszow, his pharmacy acted as a restaurant, supplying food to them. He talks about the division of the ghetto into two parts, part A (where those still capable of work lived) and part B (where those to be deported lived). He describes the barbed wire surrounding the ghetto and the guarded gates at the edges. Lanzmann asks him to describe the "Grosse Aktion" on the Plac Zgody. Pankiewicz says that Plac Zgody was the main deportation point and that he saw many terrible things from the window of his pharmacy. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews were hopeless and Pankiewicz says they were resigned. He says that when the liquidation came he himself did not eat for three days: he could not go out and he had always eaten in a Jewish restaurant. Pankiewicz says that during the first deportation, in June 1941, the Jews thought that they were being resettled in the Ukraine. However, by the time of the October 28, 1942 deportation the Jews knew that deportation meant death. A woman had written a letter to her relatives, telling them that she was in Belzec. Shots of people walking through the construction site. No audio. 01:16:08. Close-up of sign reading 17 Plac Zgody . Another plaque, perhaps commemorating the location. 02:00:00 CR 3,4: Long shot of the pharmacy. The camera pulls in to reveal Pankiewicz standing outside the pharmacy in a white coat. The pharmacy was located on Targowa Street. Close-ups of Pankiewicz. Shots of Pankiewicz inside the pharmacy. The slate now reads "Krakow." Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz why he wrote a book about his experiences. Pankiewicz says that he wanted to answer the many questions that were put to him after the war, to explain why he was not liquidated himself, and to tell those who had no contact with the ghetto what it was like. A confusing passage about Germans who were arrested immediately after the liquidation of the ghetto and about rescuing some Jews. Pankiewicz talks again about how he sold food, not medicine, to the Jewish laborers from Plaszow, because they were healthy but wanted food. Pankiewicz says that he had Jewish friends even before the war and that he only thinks in terms of good people and bad people, not Jew and non-Jew. He talks about the establishment of the ghetto and his reaction to it (the dates he uses are not consistent). He says he and his family had lived in the location where the ghetto was established, and he talks about hiding Jews in his room during the ghetto's liquidation (or during a deportation?). He says he received a letter from a woman in Israel who claimed to have hidden in the pharmacy, but he did not remember her. Lanzmann asks him about suicide in the ghetto. Pankiewicz says that there were some who did commit suicide, once they knew they were going to be deported. He says that the Jews knew what deportation/evacuation meant and so did he. News and letters came from Belzec. Lanzmann asks him why, in his opinion, if the Jews knew what would happen to them, did they not resist? He says the Jews thought that maybe they would actually survive, that the situation was not as bad as it was in Warsaw. He said many of the Jews had connection to the Polish side and were not as isolated as Warsaw Jews were. He said Jews could leave the ghetto at times but had no place to go. Helping Jews was an automatic death sentence, and the Jews often wanted to take their entire families with them. 03:00:00 CR 5, 6, 7: Pankiewicz knew of several cases where Poles helped Jews after the liquidation of the ghetto, but it was not possible to help entire families. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz again why he thought the Jews did not fight when they were deported. He says he is not speaking of the Jewish resistance, but of the people who were trapped in the ghetto and deported. Pankiewicz say that the Jews were so resigned, had been through so much terror and horror, that they simply wanted an end. He says that if a wife was deported a husband and children might follow voluntarily. Yet at the same time the Jews maintained some small hope that they might not be murdered, might be able to help each other survive. Lanzmann asks about the role of the Jewish police. He says that there were good and bad police and gives an example of two policemen who he knew in school and who helped him to smuggle a Jew out of Krakow. He talks about various members of the Jewish Council, including Rosenzweig. Lanzmann points out that they were all liquidated in the end. Lanzmann asks again whether his burden was too much to bear during these times. Pankiewicz says no, although he was so bound up with the Jews, that he believed that what happened to them would also happen to him. He says that the Jews have built him up into a kind of legend, but it is not true. He did not know at the time what he was doing, he simply did it. Lanzmann asks him whether he was married at the time and he says no. He says he had dealings with only a few Germans. A new reel begins and Pankiewicz returns to the fact that the Jews have built a small legend out of him, but that he only did what one human should do for other humans who were in a tragic situation. 03:15:02 - 03:17:02 various shots of Pankiewicz.

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Document

    Contains documentation, including indices, summaries, transcripts, and translations, compiled by Claude Lanzmann while developing the film "Shoah."

    Nahum Goldmann

    Nahum Goldmann

    Film

    Born in the Russian Empire (now Belarus) in 1895, Nahum Goldmann received a law degree and PhD from the University of Heidelberg. He was President of the World Jewish Congress from 1948 to 1977 which he founded with Stephen Wise. He was a Zionist activist but was often critical of Israeli public policy. He was instrumental in creating the Jewish Material Claims Conference. Goldmann wrote an autobiography called "Sixty Years of Jewish Life" in 1969. He died in 1982. In this interview shot in Israel, Lanzmann and Goldmann discuss Stephen Wise, when the Jews realized the reality of the Final Solution, the Jewish Council, and the Arendt controversy. The interview was likely shot in Jerusalem from February 3-10, 1975 during the World Jewish Congress conference at which Gerhart Riegner was present. FILM ID 3865 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 Lanzmann interviews Nahum Goldmann. They talk about his writing, in which he condemns the outside world for its ability to see the inevitable catastrophe of the Holocaust and take any decisive action to save the Jews. They talk about the differences between the Jewish world and leadership between then and now - how it is more united today than before because of the existence of Israel and the successful representation of the World Jewish Congress. Goldmann says that the Jews are incredibly optimistic, which is how they’ve survived 2,000 years of diaspora, but that this can be dangerous. He says that in the early 1930s, German Jews did not take the threat of Hitler seriously enough. However, he says that the American Jews, who were and are the most influential group, were the worst in terms of evaluating the threat of Nazism. He is convinced that if the world Jewry had united to fight Hitler in the mid 1930s before Nazis consolidated power, hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved. They discuss Roosevelt’s idea to appoint Stephen Wise as the ambassador to Germany, as well as Goldmann’s own denaturalisation by Goebbels after his establishment of the WJC’s boycott on Germany. (12:00) Goldmann thinks that the power of the Jewish community is greater today because of general global guilt over a lack of preventative action during the Holocaust, but that this won’t last. He describes a growing sentiment, particularly amongst the younger German generation, that they were not responsible for what occurred. However, he does express the opinion that Roosevelt was a champion of underdogs, both a moral figure and a great politician, and that he did endeavor to help the Jews but bureaucracy prevented him from being successful. (15:38) Lanzmann points out what he perceives to be a paradox in their discussion: that the non-Jews were much more confident in the power of the Jewish community than the Jews themselves. Goldmann agrees. He says that Jews were much more concerned with patriotism and assimilation than consolidating community because of their fears of anti-Semitism. For example, the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a French Jewish organization, was very against the establishment of the WJC. They question if German Jews were overly patriotic and did not have foresight in assessing the Nazi threat. (21:52) Lanzmann asks what could have been achieved with specific action. Goldmann responds that when Hitler came to power, there was a peace treaty with Poland which gave Jews in Upper Silesia equal rights as a minority. The Nazi laws violated this treaty. The League of Nations then passed a resolution that Hitler could not enforce anti-Semitic laws because there was an international treaty guaranteeing equal rights. Subsequently, for the remainder of the treaty’s duration, the Nuremberg laws did not apply to Jews in Upper Silesia. He says that this international action shows that the Nazis could be forced to give in. If there had been a united Jewish action or boycott, he believes non-Jews would have joined them and decisive prevention could have occurred. (27:03) Lanzmann expresses the idea that the main factor of unification of the Jewish world at the time was Zionism. Goldmann responds that Zionist groups did not have much influence on the government in Europe, but that they were the most dynamic force. The founders of the WJC were 90% Zionist. They discuss the nature of Zionism at the time and its relationship with the WJC. Goldmann describes immigration to Palestine in the 1930s, including negotiating with the Nazis on the emigration of German Jews while preserving their personal wealth. The interview cuts off abruptly, with Goldmann asking, “Oh, is it finished?” FILM ID 3866 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 Continuation of Lanzmann interview with Nahum Goldmann. Goldmann talks about a debate at the Zionist conference over which he presided in Lucerne. He says he prevailed and thousands of German Jews were able to emigrate using capitalist visas. Goldmann says the great crime of the Zionist movement was the 1937 rejection of the English partition plan. Per Goldmann, if the partition would have been accepted, hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives would have been saved. (5:30) Conversation moves to the ‘American Period’. Discussion on how the news of the extermination plan reached Goldmann and how Goldmann communicated about this with the State Department. Conversations were had with Sumner Wells and Sommerville. There was initial skepticism about the killings but confirmation was received through the Vatican network of priests. Goldmann says that American Jews did not take this report too seriously. Goldmann gives two examples of the impact of this skepticism including a delay in saving Romanian Jewish children that resulted in them being sent to Poland. Goldmann discusses his own lack of action, along with American Jews, including failing to advocate strongly enough for the bombing of the concentration camps. (18:00) Goldmann discusses how neither he nor others knew the extent of the destruction of the European Jews and the idea for the Nuremberg trials and reparations. He goes on to talk about a meeting with Major General Dill(?) where he requested the bombing of the camps but was told the bombs were needed for the war effort. (26:20) Goldmann discusses the Evian conference in London of Jewish Zionist and non-Zionist organizations. MacDonald told Goldmann and Weitzman that it would be easy to transport and settle 700,000 Jews mostly in Palestine and the United States plus a few other countries. Overall, Goldmann says it was a terrible conference with all governments coming up with reasons why they couldn’t take any Jewish refugees. FILM ID 3867 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 Continuation of Lanzmann interview with Nahum Goldmann, who expands more on the Evian Conference and the poor outcome particularly given that it was after the Holocaust. Lanzmann and Goldmann discuss the book ‘Politics of Rescue’ by an Austrian Jew named Feingold. (3:00) Goldmann discusses his personal experiences in Germany and how he received urgent calls from Weiss and Weitzman to leave Germany immediately when Hitler came to power as he was in danger. Goldmann did not sense the urgency. However, he left Germany in late March 19??. to visit his father who was ill in Palestine. Goldmann was forced to take smaller trains as the larger trains had too many guards. His father died shortly after and Goldmann did not return to Germany as he believes he would have been arrested by the Gestapo and likely killed. (6:00) Goldmann talks about how he came close to being arrested by the Germans during his travels. (8:00) He continues describing how he was reported to have died in Tel Aviv and why his father-in-law, who owned a big department store in Germany, was saved because he sold goods to high ranking officials on installment. (11:00) The picture ends but Goldmann continues talking about how manuscripts and documents were taken by the Germans, which he eventually retrieved in an amusing way. (13:21) The picture returns without sound with silent shots of Lanzmann sitting in a chair interviewing Goldmann on the couch. Ends at 17:42.

    Theresienstadt and Prague

    Theresienstadt and Prague

    Film

    Location filming in and around Terezin and Prague, Czechoslovakia for SHOAH. FILM ID 3765 -- (White 48) Theresienstadt Ville et Crematoire The town of Terezin nearly deserted except for a few people in the streets. 02:44 Group of soldiers and a large blue bus in the street. Street signs "Litomerice, 3; Usti, 28; Praha, 59." Public parks, passing trucks, pedestrians. 11:22 A public square from above and clapperboard with "Bob 50" written on it. Terezin from an upstairs window. Children playing in a park. 13:15 "Bobine 49, Lubchansky Terezin." Street views. 16:00 A wooden tower can be seen over a fence. Train tracks, memorial in the shape of a menorah. The crematorium next to the cemetery. Views of the ovens inside the crematorium. 20:16 Views of the city from outside the crematorium. 22:06 "Bobine 47, Lubchansky Terezin." Street scenes, mostly deserted. CU of railroad tracks. 26:04 Sign next to the tracks reads "Krematorium Terezin." Park views, a bus passes by. Camera approaches a building marked "15 KSC, Prislusnici, Csla, Cestne, Splni, Zavery, Xv, Sjezou, Ksc," a soldier guards the door. More street scenes. 32:53 Same view of the public square from above. A hand cuts in front of the camera. 33:36 Sunset. 34:18 Public square from the ground. Street scenes and views of buildings in the town of Terezin. FILM ID 4625 -- (White 47) Prague

    Cracow

    Cracow

    Film

    Scenes of Kraków, Poland, including Nisko, Piotrkow Trybunalski, Wieliczka, and Mielec. FILM ID 3891 -- White 85 Nisko 1-7 00:20 A gloved hand holds up "Nisko 1” in front of a snowy backdrop. Snowy fields in a rural area. Simple wooden fence with low, grey buildings on the horizon. "Nisko 2” Snowy fields. Riverbank. “Nisko 2” The river. Snowy fields, with one tree, bare of leaves, in the middle. Two trucks drive along a road in the far-off horizon. More trees and the river. “Nisko 3” The river. Another snowy field. Trees; some appear to still have leaves. Patches of green grass are visible through the snow. Road sign: “Nisko 4, Rzeszow 63.” Paved roadway. A car drives along this road towards and past the camera. CU of the road sign. “Nisko 4” sign upside down in front of the shot. "Nisko 5” in front of the road sign. LS of the road sign. Shaky as the camera zooms in on a passing train. Street sign: “Janow Lub 16, Lublin 94.” Trucks. Snowy fields. INT of the car in which the cameraperson is riding. Image cuts out at 04:34. FILM ID 3892 -- White 85 Cracovie 99-103 00:10 Crooked shot of low brick buildings, people walking along snowy sidewalks. “Wie 2 [Wielicka 2]” A large green and stone building with a big arched window. People in winter coats walk along the street in front. Truck. Family walks along the sidewalk; the woman pushes a stroller and they walk past a statue. Benches and stone buildings, including one with a tall spire. Many pedestrians. 01:45 Sound: a man says “It’s running.” "Cracovie 100” Bearded man with a cigarette in his mouth hits a boom mic with the sign. Parking lot and buildings. CU on sign: “Bohaterow Getta.” Snowflakes fall. Cars drive by. A woman runs across the street. A voice behind the camera says, “Stop.” More cars pass. Grey buildings, a parking lot, busy highway. Bearded man hits the boom with "Krakow, 100-A. Stop.” "Cracovie 101” Parking lot. Street. Silent. A streetcar. Buildings, a small square, many pedestrians. “Hotel Europejski” Pedestrians run to catch the streetcar. Large white building with columns. Yellow building with “PKP”sign. Pedestrians. Truck loaded with boxes. More pans. LS of the PKP building. INT of a car. Illegible slate. Image cuts out at 06:20. FILM ID 3893 -- White 85 Piotrkow Trybunalski 00:20 People gathered outside of a low wooden building. Cows in a green field, farm. A tall red post with a sign: "Piotrkow Trybunalski.”The cameraperson walks forward. Shaky pan, then 360 view of farmhouses, cows, and a briefly-visible figure standing by the road. Image cuts out at 01:27. FILM ID 3894 -- Wieliczka and Mielec 1-6 00:10 Driving along a snowy road; other cars and trucks. Signs: “Miasto I Gmina” “Wieliczka” “Turystow” “Wita” "Bochnia 30, Tarnow 72, Rzeszow 152, Medyka 250, Lwow 331.” Passing by trees and low houses. Brief INT of the car. “Mielec” windows of a building, sign: “Bar Starowmiejski.” Town square, surrounded by two-story buildings. Pedestrians. Red-brick building. People, bundled in warm clothing and hats, wait by a bus station shelter. Town square. Trucks, cars, and a tank. People board a bus. Driving on a rural road alongside train tracks and electrical towers. INT car. Two men riding in an open horse-drawn cart. Road sign: “Mielec.” The countryside from the inside of the car. Red-brick and wood farm-style buildings. Image cuts out at 06:20.

    Assembled shots (Poland and Israel)

    Assembled shots (Poland and Israel)

    Film

    Assembled color negative rolls containing location filming of Poland and Israel for SHOAH. The original color negatives were received in cans labeled "Tu Ne Commetras Pas Le Crime," 1991. The prints were in cans marked "Retirages de Shoah" which roughly translates to "Miscellaneous Reprints of Shoah". FILM ID 3196 -- Bobine 3. Retirages de Shoah (43:16) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite G. Łódź] 00:42 Slate reads 'Cracovie' (Krakow); shots of three war-era photographs: many people walking in the street, carrying their belongings in large sacs; a soldier in uniform stands on a set of trolley tracks in the middle of a street, with a military truck in the background; a wide shot of an empty street littered with people's belongings, while a large group of people stand near a military truck in the background. 01:18 Slate reads 'Zbaszyn'; shots of three photographs: two show a large crowd of people gathered in what looks like a train station; young women waving from the deck of a ship. 01:56 Slate reads 'Raciac'; shots of three photographs: several hundred men lined up around the perimeter of a courtyard, while several people mill about in the center of the yard; a close-up of several men in line in the same location; the bodies of 10 men hang over an open pit while uniformed soldiers look on. 02:30 Slate reads 'Grodno'; shots of five photographs of a massacre: flat ground covered in hundreds of neatly arranged human skulls; another shot of the same skulls; four full skeletons lie in the foreground, and a pile of bones lies in the background; close-up of the pile of bones; wide shot of the skulls and bones in a vast field. 03:42 Slate reads 'Ciechanow'; one photograph, which depicts a line of men walking as far as the eye can see. 03:58 Slate reads 'Plonsk'; four photographs: men being unloaded from the back of a covered truck, while a soldier looks on; two men in uniform stand in front of the body of a man who has been hanged in the street; men, women, and children walking up a hill, while a soldier looks on; flames leaping out of the upstairs window of a building. 04:53 Contemporary shots of Poland: people milling around a grassy open area with patches of snow and tall buildings in the background; a view of snowy fields from a moving car; a man drives a horse-drawn cart down a road away from the camera; the camera zooms out, showing the cart, road, a church, and vast fields beyond; more shots of a cart, the church, and fields. 08:13 Slate reads 'Pologne 2 hiver bobine #16' (Poland 2 Winter Reel #16), then another slate reads 'Ext. Chelmno'; close-up of a memorial plaque, which reads (in Polish) 'Here lie the ashes of 340,000 Polish Jews and 20,000 Jews from other European countries'; the camera zooms out from the plaque, showing that it is affixed to a stone at the foot of an enormous field; a shot of the memorial on the site of Chelmno: a huge concrete slab with the words of a poem written by a Chelmno prisoner. Snowy street scenes in a town. 13:24 Slate reads 'Łódź ghetto'; various street scenes, building facades, people walking about; shots of trolleys running the length of Zgierska Street, which bisected the ghetto but was off-limits to Jews, who had to cross the street using a steep and narrow bridge; a woman walks two dogs across a snowy park. 20:07 Slate reads 'LOD 12'; nighttime shots of 'Łódź Kaliska,' the Łódź train station; travelers read the train schedule board and walk around; panning shots of the station square and trains coming and going. 25:26 Slate reads 'LOD 17'; daytime street scenes in Łódź; trolleys passing; various shots of a dead-end street. 26:42 Slate reads 'LOD 18', then immediately 'LOD 19'; panning shots of a busy intersection of two wide boulevards. 28:04 Slate reads 'LOD 20'; the imposing red brick facade of the Poznanski factory complex on Ogrodowa Street, with small flags waving along the length of its fence: Izrael Poznanski was a Jewish industrialist who made a fortune in the textile industry at the turn of the 20th century, particularly in the spinning of cotton; he died in 1900 and passed the business to his son, and the factory buildings were taken over by Nazi occupiers from 1940 to 1945. 29:06 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; more shots of the Poznanski complex from across the street. 29:57 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; shots of the Poznanski family's home, known as the Poznanski Palace, located next-door to the factory on Ogrodowa Street. 30:35 Slate reads 'LOD 22'; slow zoom out on a street in central Łódź; a young boy in winter clothes walks slowly down a sidewalk; a woman stands in her upstairs window and studies the street below; the facade of a building reads 'Pionier' ('Pioneer'); the camera moves through a series of doorways and dark passageways; shots of a dilapidated building in a back courtyard. 36:26 Slate reads 'LOD 24'; camera zooms in and then out on the upstairs windows of a large brick building. 38:14 Slate reads 'LOD 25'; shots of the same brick building; camera pans 180 degrees to show facades of the Catholic Church of the Assumption of Our Blessed Mary, in Plac Koscielny, while children play on its steps; the church was located in the Jewish ghetto during the war, and the Nazi occupiers used it first to store the possessions of Jews who had been killed in Chelmno, and then as a warehouse for down feathers. 39:13 Slate reads 'LOD 26'; A Łódź train platform - the train station of the neighborhood of contemporary Łódź where the Jewish ghetto once stood; pan to the central station building; people walk around the station square; a large group is congregated near the ticket window; people walking off platforms 1, 2, and 3 and out of a station door. Slate reads 'LOD 28', end of reel. FILM ID 4604 -- Bobine 4. Retirages de Shoah (16:41) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite D. Łódź] 00:06 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob. 7' Roadway with plowed snow at edges. 01:51 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 17' Another slate: 'Łódź Ghetto' Building, street scenes, cemetery, drive by snowy forest, villages in Poland. 06:02 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob 1' Another slate: 'VAR 1' Cemetery in Warsaw with snow; CU, Czerniakow's grave; sign: Jewish Cemetery Warsaw; drive by snowy fields. 13:00 [leader marked 'Neige de Siberie'] Drive by snowy field and forest [tail leader marked 'fin bob 4']. 14:38 [leader marked "Tu ne commettras pas le crime" de C. Lanzmann] Drive by snow covered fields with trees in background. FILM ID 4611 -- Boite C. Israel (47:20) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite C. Israel] Pan over trees. 02:45 People and Israeli soldiers attend a memorial service among graves of Jewish people, most likely, the Kiryat Shaul Cemetery in Israel which erected memorials for Holocaust victims. "Cimetiere 1" Women wipe their noses and tears with a tissue. Crew member boom mic. Soldiers surround the memorial. Baskets on the ground. A crowd of women approach, some holding flowers and emotional. They stop at a tomb and place the flowers. The cameraman tries to record people's reactions. 00:10:56 “Bob. 60” Cliffs in Israel. Factory in the distance. Vast desert landscape. Scenes from a moving vehicle driving on a road through the desert. 00:21:59 Different landscape while driving. Bob 61. Herd of sheep makes its way through the desert, camel in the BG. 00:26:20 Man walks with a briefcase. Car drives along cliff, possibly near Masada. Bob 59. Cemetery, graves, cars. Small plane. Soldiers on road. Kids play and joke. Donkeys pull wagons. Soldiers get into a truck. Bright green crops.

    Treblinka (TR)

    Treblinka (TR)

    Film

    Location filming of Treblinka camp and Malkinia train station for SHOAH. Includes short interviews with Polish people living around the Treblinka camp in Iladou, Poniatowo, and Wolka Okraglik, Poland. Lanzmann talks with Polish men and women who describe having lived and worked in the fields in the shadow of Treblinka during its operation. They describe being forbidden to look that direction, the Ukrainians who worked in the camp, the scene at the train station when transports arrived, and the effects of the weather on the Jews. Lanzmann visits the quay where trains stopped at the entrance of the camp. A Polish man describes routinely finding the corpses of Jews in his field who had tried to escape; he would return the bodies to the camp to be incinerated. Lanzmann talks with a group of children in an attempt to discern current attitudes toward Jews. FILM ID 3369 -- Camera Rolls # TR85-87 -- 07:59:39 to 08:27:38 Lanzmann drives through a town near Treblinka. Windshield wipers; Lanzmann comments on the beautiful scenery. They approach a farm house where children play. 08:03:52 Lanzmann talks with an older gentleman, First Farmer, who initially resists being interviewed. The man had seen trains 80 cars long coming into the town. A woman off-camera repeats several times in Polish that, "It's not allowed to talk about it" and "You couldn't go in there." 08:05:42 TR 86 Conversation is distant with the loud noise of geese. A farmer witnessed two young boys who had escaped being beaten and killed by German officers. 08:07:07 Everyone 'trembled with fear' in that era, particularly because Germans posted a warning on the door of every house stating that those who helped Jews would be killed. 08:08:00 Lanzmann asks the woman, who had been standing silently whether she had been in Treblinka at that time, and she replies that she was very young. 08:08:15 While a man worked in the fields his sister stayed at home and a young Jewish girl took the sister because she thought if she was seen with a Pole from the town, she could trick the Ukrainians. The sister started to scream, neighbors came over, and the Jewish girl ran away. 08:09:21 The smell was so bad that when the wind blew from the direction of the camp, it was impossible to work. No one knew what was going on there. Second Farmer shouts out that they were burning people, and another woman says they were killing people. Comments are not translated into French because they are talking over each other. 08:10:26 Lanzmann presses whether they really knew what was happening in the camp, and the woman says it would take an entire day to discuss everything that happened. 08:10:39 First Farmer worked in a field about 100 meters from the camp and saw how they strangled the Jews, how they cried. They were not allowed to stop and look because if the Ukrainians saw them, they would be shot. 08:10:30 The man tells the story of a woman from Poniatowo who went to sell potatoes from her field to the people of another town. A Ukrainian on the observation tower saw her looking and shot and killed her. They cast glances at the camp but mostly worked with their heads down. 08:11:30 Foreign Jews arrived on a passenger train with a restaurant car, and they had been told they were going to work in a factory. They were rich Jews, whereas 'our Jews' (i.e. Polish Jews) arrived in cattle cars. The Poles would show the Jews the hand motion of being strangled, signaling that death was waiting for them. 08:13:55 When Germans guarded the transport, sometimes they would tell the Jews to get off the train and drink some water. Second Farmer and others told them to run away because they were on their way to death. It was forbidden to talk to the Jews. 08:14:36 The train would stay long enough to push 20 train cars to the camp. In the beginning, they killed them running. [Picture cuts out at several points.] 08:15:27 TR 87 Second Farmer lets Lanzmann visit his field where he still grows wheat and potatoes. Lanzmann asks whether he finds remnants of the camp when he is working and he says no. Others have found skulls on the surface of the grass. 08:17:37 People have found gloves, rings, earrings, and even 20-dollar gold coins. 08:18:47 When the last Ukrainian left, they flattened the camp and planted flowers. 08:19:05 The Poles talked to the Ukrainians because they got drunk at night and would look for locals, demanding to be driven back to the camp. The Ukrainians trafficked vodka. Some were cunning and some would escape. 08:20:10 Second Farmer says, "It's only Hitler who can know." First Farmer adds, "Who could have expected this? No one." Once, the Jews set fire to the camp, and everyone ran away to Poniatowo. Lanzmann clarifies the date: August 2, 1943. 08:21:26 The Poles worked in the fields that day, and the Ukrainians had gone to swim in the Bug. They rushed back and stopped First Farmer on the road and asked whether he had seen the Jews running. He said yes, they were running to the forest with grenades and guns. 08:23:20 Lanzmann asks the farmers why they think this happened to the Jews. Second Farmers replies that "the Jews have good heads," and that's why they were able to organize this revolt. Those who hid in the forest survived, but others were captured. 08:24:38 They talk about living normally with Jews before the war, and the two Jewish families in Poniatowo. Stores belonged to Jews and he bought his food from them. People used to say when there were no Jews, there would be no commerce, but there is still commerce now. [There is no corresponding transcript. This reel was preserved with the Gawkowski interview.] FILM ID 3811 -- Camera Roll # TR88 – Interview Paysans gare (chutes) (Iladou) When the transports arrived, it was very hot and the Jews were very thirsty. When they tried to exit the train, the Ukrainians would shoot them. The Ukrainians instructed the Jews inside the trains to give them their gold and sometimes the Ukrainians would hit them with their guns. There were up to 150 people in one car, and there were always some dead in the train car when they arrived. They were so cramped that those who were alive would sit on the corpses. It was so hot in June and July. Sometimes, he would give water to the Jews. They would try to escape the train by jumping through the windows. Sometimes they would intentionally jump out the window and sit on the ground, because they knew they would be shot in the head. When there were no more train cars, they would come to get the corpses with two or three cars. They would put all the corpses in those cars and take them inside the camp. 00:04:28 Lanzmann asks whether it bothered the Germans and Ukrainians to be doing all this in front of the local residents. The man says that they did not care. When a train was in the station, they could not cross the tracks but they were allowed to walk the length of the platform. 00:05:15 He wonders how man could do these things to another human being. He remembers an instance when a woman in a transport asked for water and a Ukrainian said no, and she threw the pot she was carrying on her head. He stepped back 10 meters, and began shooting at the car at random. He says that winter was worse because of the cold, but then says that maybe the Jews weren't cold on the trains because they were so cramped, and that in summer it was so hot that they suffocated. 00:07:26 Lanzmann and the gentleman walk toward his field. FILM ID 3812 -- Camera Rolls #TR 89-97 -- Paysan dans son champ (doubles) (Iladou) TR 89 Lanzmann talks inaudibly, they struggle to light cigarettes, the gentleman points out his field. TR 90 They stand in his field and discuss its proximity to what were the gates of the Treblinka camp, about 200 meters away. The stones that mark the location of the crematoria are also visible. His field is on a small hill, and he was able to see the convoys arriving. There was a wooden fence made of tree branches, about 3 meters high, but from his hill he could see over the fence. Lanzmann does the majority of the talking, and is incredulous as to the proximity of the man's field to the camp itself. TR 91 Lanzmann comments on the proximity of some of the fields to the camp, and that farmers were allowed to work their fields. The gas chambers were just on the other side of the fence. He was scared to work, but nothing ever happened to him while he was there. They discuss the poor quality of the dirt for planting. TR 92 Silent walk through the fields. TR 93. TR 94 They walk from his field toward the camp. Lanzmann asks whether residents of the villages on the other side of the camp also had fields adjacent to the camp, and the man says yes. They arrive at the platform where the train would offload Jews-- the platform could exactly accommodate 20 train cars.TR 95 The man heard screams from his field. The Jews would scream when the doors of the train cars finally opened, and they saw where they were. He describes the cries as a "lamentation." To him, it sounded like "one great common scream," instead of many voices. After a while, the screams sounded less human and more like the cries of geese. He was scared for his life, and thought he might be the next to be submitted to the fate of the Jews inside the camp.TR 96 The man would rather not have worked in this field, but his father asked him to because the family had few fields. Most of the people from the area near Treblinka are poor. 00:01:03 They stand on the platform where Jews disembarked from the trains. The man distinguished the screams from an orchestra that was playing. The man could see the people disembarking because there were no trees.TR 97 The man describes the moments after the Jews descended from the trains. Clothing went to one side, kitchen wares and tools to the other, and then they were pushed further into the camp itself. The gas chambers were on the left. FILM ID 3813 -- TR 97A-100 -- White 8- Le Camp Driving along a dirt road towards the memorial stones at Treblinka with Beethoven’s 7th symphony (the death march) playing. TR 99 Different views of the same, INT car. FILM ID 3814 -- TR 100A-100B -- White 8bis- Les Pierres Silent shots of stones at Treblinka memorial. FILM ID 3815 -- TR 100C-102 -- White 9- Eglise de Prostyn. Poniatovo: oratoire Silent shots of the church in Poniatowo, street and farming scenes. An elderly woman walks towards the camera with a flower bouquet. 08:55 TR 102 The woman who has lived in Poniatowo her whole life lays flowers on the altar of the Virgin Mary. Lanzmann asks what she is praying for, and she replies that she does not know. He asks her about the war, and she says, "How could I have known what was happening [inside the camp]?". She admits knowing bad things were happening, but that she was not allowed near the camp and never approached. Lanzmann presses her for more memories from that time, and she walks away. FILM ID 3816 -- TR 103A-104 -- White 9bis- Int. Poniatowo TR 103 Lanzmann meets an 84-year-old man in the village of Poniatowo, who remembers both wars. He says he remembers everything, and that Poniatowo is the closest village to the Treblinka camp. The man says he knew that Jews were being exterminated in the camp. "How could I not know?" he says. He explains that Ukrainians also killed a few people in this village, for the smallest thing. At the Treblinka station, three or four trucks came every day to pick up the corpses of Jews who had tried to escape and been shot. He remembers the smell of death coming from the camp when the wind blew from that direction, and of hearing children crying at night. He explains that many people arrived every day: Polish Jews in cattle cars, and Jews of other nationalities on passenger trains. The Jews, he says, thought they were going to work, and when local people warned them (with the hand motion of cutting one's throat), the Jews laughed. In the camp, he says, there were only about 20 Germans and many more Ukrainians. The Ukrainians would come into the town with a lot of gold and buy vodka and meat. They would visit prostitutes in the woods, too. He remembers seeing Jews running from the camp during the revolt.11:23 TR 104 Lanzmann asks whether the man remembers the revolt of August 1943. He does, though they did not pass through the village in their flight. He did see the corpses of those who were killed while fleeing. He helped Jews when he could, mostly by giving them direction and telling them what areas were safe, but he was very scared to do so. Lanzmann interjects that he knows a Jew who escaped from Treblinka, who hid for 15 hours in a swamp near Prostyn. Lanzmann asks the man whether he is saddened that there are no more Jews in Poland. He replies that no, he does not wish there were still Jews in Poland because he prefers to live amongst Poles. Additional shots of the group of locals with background conversation in Polish. FILM ID 3817 -- TR 105-110 -- White 10- Wolka Okraglik Cows and main road in village of Wolka Okraglik. 02:04 TR 106 Lanzmann meets a 45-year-old man from Wolka Okraglik, a village further away from the camp, and decides not to interview him. TR 107. Lanzmann and his interpreter peer into a local home. 04:46 (probably TR 110 – slate is concealed) Lanzmann asks whether there were women from Warsaw who came to the village during the war, and his interviewee replies that he never saw one, but that it's possible they were in the woods. A plane came twice a week to deliver goods to the Ukrainians working at the camp. Even the Ukrainians didn't have gold, though, he explains. "Gold was worth killing for." There was no way to alert the Jews as to what was going on in Treblinka because they moved the train cars quickly to the camp, and villagers were not allowed to approach them. Doing so was risking death, because, "the Ukrainians shot at people as though they were rabbits." Jews would run to try to escape, even naked. Every morning when he would come to his field, he would find the corpses of Jews laying in it, "like stalks of cut wheat." He would put the bodies in a wagon and wheel it to the entrance of the camp, where Ukrainian workers would burn them with the other corpses. This was common for fields around Treblinka, because many people tried to escape and were machine gunned down. Every night there would be escaped Jews in the village, even naked, who asked for help. They wanted to run as far away as possible. It was impossible to help them, because Ukrainians were in the village, except to give them clothes. His brother gave clothes to an escaped Jew. Very few who escaped survived. Lanzmann asks whether the residents of the village are very religious, and the man replies that they are. Lanzmann asks whether there were Jews in the village before the war, and the interviewee says no, but that some lived in another village six kilometers away. He saw the Jews from Kosow Lacki walk on foot toward the camp. When Lanzmann asks whether the gentleman is sad that there are no more Jews in Poland, he replies that it is not his business and that it doesn't matter to him.14:39 TR 109 Lanzmann and his interpreter enter private gates and meet a farmer who worked in the construction of the Treblinka camp. Once Jews began to arrive he was no longer allowed inside. He describes hearing the cries coming from the camp, as well as the orchestra which was there to "drown out the cries of the Jews." The man remembers watching the convoys of Jews from Warsaw arrive at Treblinka. Six transports arrived per day, and each had 60 train cars. Only 20 cars could be shunted to the camp to be unloaded at a time, so they divided each train into three parts. He worked in a field very close to the barbed fence, so he could hear the terrible cries. In fact, the camp was built partly on his fields. He could not go inside, but could hear everything. In the beginning, he couldn't handle the sounds, but eventually he became accustomed to it. Now it seems impossible that it happened, though he knows it did. Lanzmann asks him about the smell emanating from the camp. He explains that initially the odor was terrible because the bodies were buried in mass graves, and the smell became too much so they dug up the graves and burned the bodies, spraying them with gas. He explains that there were not many Germans working, about 120 Ukrainians, and about 1000 Jews working in the camp. The Ukrainians worked eight hours per day and were allowed to leave the camp after hours, so they would come to the village. FILM ID 3819 -- TR 31-32 – Interview Enfants Gare Lanzmann interviews a group of children and asks what they think of the history of their town. They don't believe all of the stories their parents tell, because they weren't there. One child comments that she knows what a Jew is, though she couldn't define it. A boy says that a Jew is "a guy who has a beard." 00:03:36 The children laugh and joke; the brother of one found a gold tooth in the forest, and they have found bones and rings as well, on the land where the camp used to be. Lanzmann presses them-- if they have found human bones, must the stories told by their parents be true? One says yes, they must be, and another says he does not believe because his family is Ukrainian. 00:07:34 The children say that Jews came to the camp for a meeting, and they saw them. A boy adds that the Jew he saw had a curved nose. When Lanzmann asks, the children say they don't have sympathy for the Jews because they are dark and have beards. 00:08:35 Lanzmann asks the group of children whether they attend church and whether they believe; the children say that they do, and ask Lanzmann whether he does. When he says that he does not, they yell that he is a capitalist and a Jew. Jews are capitalists, they say. The children admonish Lanzmann for not believing in God and when he asks whether it is worse to kill or to not be a Christian, they say that both are sins and both are bad. Lanzmann asks what they have learned about Jews in church, and they refuse to tell him. FILM ID 4647 -- White 1 Treblinka Bug “Bob 1” River and sky, sunset. CU of the sun on the water. Boat on the river and under a bridge. The water. FILM ID 4648 -- White 2 TR arrivee village; chutes TR1 “TR 2” Lanzmann driving a car (filmed from the backseat). He slows down while going past the “Treblinka” sign. He gets out of the car and walks up to old rail cars. “TR 3” Back in the car, he crosses over train tracks. CU “Treblinka sign” Small village in the area. “TR 1” More shots of Lanzmann driving parallel to the train tracks. They are slowed down by a horse drawn wagon. Picture missing from 00:08:26 - 00:10:19. Repeat shot of Lanzmann walking towards the rail cars. FILM ID 4649 -- White 4 TR gare wagons et enfants Children hang out in the railway cars. One swings back and forth on the sliding door rail. CU, blue eyes of one of the Polish boys. He smiles at the camera while sitting on the train. The other kids begin to play around on the trains again. Railcar with "X” on it. “Bob 3” FILM ID 4650 -- White 4bis TR Bug (Hiver-Train wagons) CU, modern train approaches and passes. Field beyond the tracks. Train goes the opposite way. Partially iced-over river underneath a bridge. FILM ID 4651 -- White 4bis TR Trains, wagons, rampe, hiver Shots between two parked trains, zoom out and pan over to "Treblinka” sign. Railway cars and path between the trains. More shots from the other side of the train. Different Treblinka sign. “Boite 3” Treblinka sign again, and shots of the railcars at the station. Moving train and town. Stones that mark the boundary of the Treblinka camp. Memorial and the symbolic cemetery. FILM ID 4652 -- White 5 TR gare calme + trains voyageurs Henryk Gawkowski sleeping on a bench. A Polish man wakes him up and tries to move him from the bench. They talk for a moment. Other men sit on the benches at the station. People ride bikes, sign: “Nigdy Wiecej Wojny”. A child rides his bicycle next to the train tracks at the “Treblinka” station. Men converse on the tracks. Woman with young boy. Herding cows. Fog rolls in across the fields. Train tracks. “Bob 22” Passenger train arrives. People get on and off at the Treblinka stop. The train departs, people wave from window. “T 34” Cows across the tracks. FILM ID 4653 -- White 6 TR en train: Rails. Paysages “Bob 23” Train. “Bob 24” Train moves along the tracks, filmed from the back of the train. More shots. People get off the train at the “Treblinka” stop. “T 44” Shots from the window of the train. A cow grazes. “T 35” CU tracks. “T 40” More shots. FILM ID 4654 -- White 6bis TR Voyageurs en train Three women sit on a train. CU woman. Man and a young boy. Woman looks at the boy. CU of a woman sitting in front of a wheel. She adjusts how she is sitting. CU of man eating on the train. CU of the man across from him.Two men sit across from each other having a conversation. “TR 34” CU of another woman on the train. CU of a couple. FILM ID 4655 -- White 7 TR Alentours Borowi A woman walks down the road into Treblinka carrying a sack on her back. Wagon passes with three men. Snow geese cross the road, the Treblinka sign in view. “Tr 80” Family on a wagon. Man laying on the side of a road. Claude Lanzmann tries to help, but Mr. Borowi continues sleeping. Railway cars in the distance. “Tr 82” Horse grazing, geese, man sleeping. CU railway car. Feeding the pig. Railway cars. Pigeons on the roof. A disabled man, wagon, man sleeping. “Tr 83” Lanzmann tries to wake the sleeping man. Wagon filled with hay. CU of railway cars. FILM ID 4656 -- White 50 TR 118-126.131.132 Rampe. Pierres Memorial stones representing the railroad tracks into Treblinka. “TR 119” The camera pans over the stone rail road and the stones marking the border of the camp. “TR 122” More of the stones. “TR 123” Memorial in Treblinka camp. “TR 131” Lanzmann. The ramp. “TR 132” More shots of the tracks and the ramps. “TR 121” CU of the memorial on the site of the gas chamber. “TR 125 &136” FILM ID 4657 -- White 51 TR 127-128,133-140A.174A. Monument pierres Field with trees. Treblinka memorial stone for the gas chamber. Memorial graveyard. “TR 134” More shots of the memorial and a burial site. “TR 135” CU text on the stones. “TR 137” HAS of Treblinka camp grounds. Horse and worker in the distance. CUs, memorial stones. “TR 138” “TR 140” CU of the memorial stone for the site of the gas chamber. “TR 127” “TR 128” More of the monuments. FILM ID 4658 -- White 52 TR 129-130 De l'entrée du camp a la rampe chutes Shots of the camp entrance to the ramps. FILM ID 4659 -- White 53 TR 171A-171 Travelling au tour du camp Driving around the camp. Stones marking the perimeter of the camp. Traveling into Treblinka camp, along the ramp and then out of the camp and through the surrounding woods. Memorial stones. “TR 171” The vehicle drives alternative routes around the camp. FILM ID 4660 -- White 54 TR 172-174.196A.196. Lazarett Sable Marche Location where Lazarett was located. Walking along the ramp and railroad tracks at Treblinka. FILM ID 4661 -- White 55 TR 185-188.198. Des rails a la rampe Color & some sound. Operator with a boom fiddles with the camera and steps away. Men speak. Tracking shot along and across railroad tracks. Dirt path with trees and plants on either side. Repetitive shots of railroad tracks, moving backwards, the tracks disappear. (05:54) Clapperboard in car with 98V and TR (upside down). Railroad tracks, moving to dirt ramp. Pan of skinny trees, dirt ramp, wood piles. (09:18) Clapperboard with 88V and upside down TR. Railroad tracks with train. (09:45) Clapperboard with upside down TR and 98V. Train approaches head-on down the track. Locomotive horn. (10:28) Operator with boom taps white clapperboard. More panning of the railroad track. Train passes by. TR 87. Tracking shot of the railroad tracks, dirt path, vehicles passing. (13:35) End. FILM ID 4662 -- White 56 TR 201-206C Gare: panneau + oies Silent. Train station at Treblinka. Sign: “Rozead Jazdy Pociagow. Daszerskich St Treblinka.” Pan of building to white sign “Treblinka”. TR 206. Low wooden building with Treblinka sign. Pan to a different sign. (01:22) Man and woman walk by. Clapperboard TR 201. Sign on building: “Nigdy Wiecej Treblinki” surrounded by trees behind railroad tracks. TR 202. “Treblinka” brief section without image. Pile of dirt beside railroad track, trees. Biker on path. Pan of buildings at the station, bench. Swans. Cyclist. CU of swans walking along dirt path. Woman in boots. TR 204. Swans. Pan of train cars. Bare trees. Train stops, smoke. TR206. Train with smoke behind trees. Swans. (6:45) TR 205 Man in hat at wooden well, cranks the handle, picks up a bucket and distributes water. Train cars. Birds on bare trees. Station building with white Treblinka sign. Shot between two train cars. Treblinka sign through trees. Swans. Station. (10:16) End FILM ID 4663 -- White 57 TR 116-117C.167.178-180. Gare: Trains nuit Color & some sound. Treblinka train station at night. Headlights, smoke. Train disappears. Building with white Treblinka sign. INT, one light is on. Trees in the wind. Closer shot of the sign. Hand with white clapperboard “TR 117”, flips card upside down. Train moves slowly with lights on and smoke coming from the chimney against the darkening sky. Red lights in distance. TR 167. Lights. Building with numbers “970-9452”. Shot between two trains. Rain. People talk (silent). Field with fence, bare trees, and houses in the background. Pan of area with cows, railroad tracks, power lines, and buildings. Person walks next to railroad track. TR 178. Grassy area. Blue car. Train pulls out of the station (sound), smoke floats towards the camera. Pan of building and the railroad tracks with trees and dirt piles. Person with an umbrella walks next to tracks. Red stop lights. Pan of stationary train. White Treblinka sign. Train pulls into the station. Brief section of sound without picture. Field with water. TR 116. Train pulls away from the camera. Pan of tracks and surroundings. (11:33) Man says “It was take number 180” White clapperboard “TR 180.” Railroad station with white Treblinka sign. “ZBUZE” (13:19) End. FILM ID 4664 -- White 58 TR 161-163.166.169-170E.192. Les Pierres TR 161 Memorial stones at Treblinka. Field with trees and a rock tower, alternate shots. TR 162 (upside down). TR 163 Trees with memorial stones. TR 166 (upside down). CZESTOCHOWA engraved on a stone. Tower and memorial. Fog. TR 170 (upside down). (6:26) Stone memorial. Traveling shots. Black rocks. Engravings. Tower with menorah. TR 170 (upside down). Engravings including Polaski and Austria. Rock tower. (11:22) End. FILM ID 4665 -- White 59 TR 176-177,210-216 Alentours Borowi rush Surroundings of Treblinka related to the SHOAH interview with Czeslaw Borowi (RG-60.5032). Dirt path, barren trees, chickens. Pan of houses in proximity to the Treblinka camp. Fog. Repeat shots. TR 177 (upside down). Two people walk down a muddy path. Houses. Brick building with green doors. TR 210 inside a vehicle. Pan of neighborhood homes. Dog in a window. Train. More shots of the Treblinka area. Truck with hay. Arm holds a white card with TR 211. Alternative shots. (10:32) End. FILM ID 4666 -- White 60 TR Poniatowo Divers Various shots of the area near Treblinka and locals in Poniatowo. Dirt road. Farmer with cows. Cart. TR 118 (upside down) Three men with a boat. Cows walking across the empty railroad tracks. Man on motorcycle. Woman walking with a bike. TR 165 Pan of forest and landscape. Swans. TR 175 (upside down) Woman walks with a stick. TR 209 Ducks in water. Horse-drawn wagon carries passengers. TR 207 Muddy street with horses. Woman with an umbrella. Church and everyday activity in the village. TR 208 Field and water. Horse galloping behind a fence. Traveling shot, car driving down the road in the rain, windshield wipers. Train on tracks. Yellow sign says “Treblinka” Pan of the area surrounding Treblinka. (13:07) End. FILM ID 4667 -- White 61 TR 181-184B Kossol TR 181 Rainy day. Sign directing traffic to: “Mauzoleum Walki ! Meczenstwa TREBLINKA 9” Horse-drawn wagon, bikers, cars in the town 9km from Treblinka. Treblinka sign. Church and locals. Pan of buildings. TR 182. Blue Treblinka Sign. People and children on the street. Horse-drawn wagon with a man and two women with pink flowers drives by (with sound). Camera follows the wagon as it drives aways. People talk and cross the street. (05:21) Man says 183 and holds up TR 183. Local area, traffic. Treblinka Sign. Women walk towards the church and under its arch. Street in town. Man says, “Stop.” Driving along the road, various shots of the area in close proximity to Treblinka camp. TR 184 Wolka Okraglik sign in yellow. Local Polish people. (9:23) End. FILM ID 4668 -- White 62 TR 140-147 Gare Malkinia Reel contains sound. Moving train passes by. Men stand in front of the Malkinia station house across the tracks. Timetable schedule. White sign: “MALKINIA.” Man leans against the railing. Train slowly approaches the station, passes. Repeat shots. TR 143. Building with “MALKINIA” sign is visible through the space between two train cars. Woman stands outside the building. Man in a hat walks by. Train pulls away. Pan of empty tracks. Passengers gathered. A man hangs off the train and steps off to walk beside it. An engineer connects the car to another car. TR 144. The man is visible between two train cars. Train moves (sound). Pan to sound operator with boom. Trains. TR 144. TR 145. Stopped railcar. Train approaches and passes. Man. Malkinia sign. Pan of tracks. TR 147 (upside down). More shots of trains at the station. (13:15) End. FILM ID 4669 -- White 63 TR 141.167.199-200. Train Bug Malkinia->Treb "20 sec de voyage de nuit" Some sound. Car crosses a bridge over the Bug River. TR 200. Road from the front of the car on the bridge. Trees alongside a road. Sign for the MALKINIA rail station near Treblinka. Train, railway tracks. At dusk, bridge above river, landscape shots, crossing the bridge. Crewman says “Stop” (4:35) End. FILM ID 4670 -- White 64 TR 148-152 Gare Malkinia Sound in parts. Railway station, tracks. MALKINIA sign. Officer steps on the median. Trains pass. (sound) (3:30) Railcars. Boom guy. TR 148 (upside down). Various shots of the station. Man says “149”. (4:55) Train approaches, officer waves a yellow flag. TR 150. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign. Passengers. TR 151. MALKINIA sign. (6:55) Train passes. Man walks by the stopped train, switches lever and walks across tracks. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign and blows its horn. Boy in a red coat walks by. Engineer pulls another lever. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign and passes it. (10:43) Train horn. Empty tracks. TR 152 (upside down). (11:36) End. FILM ID 4671 -- White 65 TR 153-159 Gare Malkinia Calme Some sound. Trains at Malkinia station near Treblinka. TR 158 Train with smoke. Children walk on tracks. Horse-drawn wagon, bicycles. Pan to railcar, surrounding buildings, and tracks. TR 159. Repeat shots, MALKINIA sign. Trains. (3:30) (sound) Train passes. TR 153 (5:22) Empty hallway. Passengers wait. White card with TR 154. People wait for the train on the platform. A man steps off the train and climbs onto another. Scenes at the railway station. TR 155 (9:15) Train passes (sound). Some shouts. (10:31) Sign: “ROZKLAD JAZDY POCIAGOW” TR 156 (upside down). (10:55) End. FILM ID 4672 -- TR 116 [Item 3] Train with smoke coming from the chimney approaches the camera and passes. Pan to countryside and river. White card with “TR 116” is held up. Hand covers camera. (2:19) End. FILM ID 4673 -- White 37 Malkinia / Cochons Sound. In Malkinia, nearby to the Treblinka camp: horse-drawn wagons, Polish residents, farm animals. Inaudible dialogue. Man shoos pig from a cage in the wagon to a stall; sleeping pigs. Pan. Men smoke and shake hands. Boom guy taps microphone. Crowd. Farmer moves pigs to a pen. Man says “Stop.” People continue to talk indistinctly. Wagons travel down the muddy path. (6:35) End.

    Dr. Wiener - Cracow

    Dr. Wiener - Cracow

    Film

    Dr. Wiener leads Lanzmann around the Jewish quarter of Krakow and describes various buildings, sites, and his personal connection to the Holocaust. Wiener and Lanzmann talk with Israël Hertzl, a Polish veteran of the Soviet Army. FILM ID 3890 -- Wiener 1-2 Travelling Cracovie INT, Wiener seated in passenger seat of car. Driving tour of the city. Wiener describes streets, buildings, and areas of Kazimierz in Krakow, including Joseph Strasse, on which many of the Orthodox Jewish community lived before the war. He goes on to say that the quarter was the center of Jewish trade. Wiener and Lanzmann stop at the old synagogue and Wiener explains the history and current state of the building before pointing out the border of the Jewish quarter, buildings where Jews lived, and former locations of Jewish shops. He goes on to comment that he was born in the Jewish quarter, he lived on the streets throughout the war, and that his mother was in the Krakow Ghetto and his father in a camp. He also repeatedly comments on how much of the city has been reconstructed. Wiener points out the house that belonged to the Kassenellenbogens, a prominent Jewish family, a Jewish cemetery established after a cholera outbreak, and schools. Lanzmann and Wiener comment on the progression of Jewish and national culture. Wiener shows Lanzmann the old wall to the Jewish quarter. 01:20:00 Silent traveling shots of Krakow. Horse/cart. Ghetto buildings. Man pushing cart loaded with boxes. Tram. FILM ID 3880 -- Camera Rolls 3-10 Cimitiere Cracovie In Krakow, Wiener explains the history of the city's oldest Jewish cemetery and its current status as a memorial. A Polish gentleman named Israël Hertzl joins the conversation and tells Lanzmann and Wiener that he was a driver and German interpreter in the Soviet Army during the war and earned decorations from both Poland and the USSR. When prompted by Lanzmann, Hertzl says that he identifies first as Jewish and then as Polish and goes on to explain that his first wife, mother, and four brothers were all deported and killed. He elaborates on his Jewish identity and notes that he learned Yiddish and Hebrew, the few Jews remaining in Poland are very proud, and the efforts made by the Jewish community to build up the culture. Wiener's wife adds her thoughts to the conversation. Wiener, his wife, and Hertzl talk about their political views, with Wiener noting that he has been a member of the communist party for fifty-one years. They also discuss their views on religion and the Pope. Hertzl, born in Stanislaw, describes the town's geographic location, its history, and his life there from 1945-1957. He goes on to say that although he moved back to Krakow after his marriage in 1957, he and his wife visit Stanislaw (now part of Russia) every year. FILM ID 3881 -- Camera Rolls 11-14 Stele Cracovie Silent shots of the Holocaust memorial. Wiener and Lanzmann visit a Holocaust memorial for the Polish and Hungarian Jews who were killed. Lanzmann presses Wiener for more information about the inscription on the monument and they discuss its wording.

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Film

    Interviews with local Polish people around Sobibor, Poland, including long sequences of a Catholic mass in Wlodowa. Lanzmann asks about the Jews in Wlodawa before the war and inquires how non-Jewish residents got along with the Jews. Includes shots of the Sobibor camp and environs. FILM ID 4674 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare CU, elderly woman and man sit indoors at the Sobibor train station. “Sobibor” sign. Local people sit on benches outside waiting for train. A train pulls into the station. End clapperboard: SOB 1. 01:03:03 Passengers look out the windows of the railway cars as the train departs from the station. End clapperboard: SOB 3. 01:04:54 More shots of the EXT of the railway station, another train arrives. Clapperboard: SOB 6. 01:07:03 Different views of a train departing from the Sobibor station. 01:08:18 Lanzmann and a female assistant run across the tracks gesturing to the cameraman to turn around and film the last railcar. Crew and soundman signal end of roll. 01:09:12 Another train on the tracks. 01:09:39 End FILM ID 4675 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 15 INT, elderly couple inside the Sobibor station. End clapperboard: ALEPH Holocauste / Lanzmann-Glasberg / SOB 4. EXT shots of the “Sobibor” sign at the railway station. Unidentified crew-member signals the end of camera roll SOB 5. No picture until 01:01:30, brief sequence of a woman walking along the grassy tracks. 01:01:36 Moving shots along the tree-lined railway tracks. 01:03:53 End FILM ID 4676 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 16 Sobibor Foret Forest surrounding Sobibor train station (trims). 01:00:57 End FILM ID 4677 -- Sobibor Bte 16 Coupe Piwonski Bois Mr. Piwonski smokes a cigarette outdoors at the Sobibor railway station. Lanzmann and Barbara join Mr. Piwonski on the bench (silent shots). They converse. Camera zooms in on them, CU of “Sobibor” sign. Different angle of the three of them on the bench. 01:08:51 End FILM ID 4678 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes SOB 30A Piwonski More shots of the railway station, with Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski standing in the grass by the tracks. 01:01:20 Clapperboard: SOB 30. The three sit on a bench, and walk back and forth across the tracks, gesturing (silent). End clapperboard: SOB 30. 01:05:52 End FILM ID 4679 -- Sobibor SOB 30 Piwonski Gare Mute shots of the Sobibor station house; Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski approach the tracks and the station. 01:01:26 End. FILM ID 4680 -- SOB 33-37 L'explique SOB Gare SOB 33. Lanzmann stands in the center of the railway tracks at the Sobibor train station and describes the history of the camp at Sobibor and the geography of the railway station (no transcript). 01:03:27 SOB 34 Another take of Lanzmann at the tracks. 01:06:33 SOB 35 Take 3. 01:09:46 SOB 36 Take 4, close-up. 01:12:09 SOB 37 Take 5, close-up. Lanzmann laughs. 01:12:55 End FILM ID 4681 -- White 16 Sobibor Foret Bte 16, Chutes Bte 87 Sobibor Gare Driving towards Sobibor on a tree-lined, dirt road. Side view of Lanzmann driving. 01:04:05 SOB 61 Snowy train tracks. PKP railcar. Snowing. The train departs the station. 01:07:29 Main station house, railway tracks, zoom into “Sobibor” sign. 01:10:09 End FILM ID 4682 -- White 17 Sobibor Christ Bte 17 Chutes Various shots of the statue of Jesus Christ at a crossroads in Sobibor. 01:09:42 Claude stands in front of the statue holding a “Sobibor” sign. Brief, locals at the roadside repairing a signpost. 01:12:20 End FILM ID 4683 -- White 18 Sobibor Mirador Bte 18 High-angle view of Sobibor forest from the observation tower, ominous clouds, green trees. Logging factory. Railway tracks. 01:02:50 End FILM ID 4684 -- White 19 Wlodowa Eglise Sound begins at 01:00:10; no picture until 01:00:39 (a brief shot of the church tower) and picture cuts out again until 01:01:05 Polish parishioners exit the church doors. 01:01:46 SOB 38. Mute shots, EXTs of the church in Wlodowa. Sign: “1 Ul. J. Gagarina” People leaving the Catholic mass, gathered outside the church. 01:06:07 SOB 39 Man kneels by a tree. 01:08:21 Locals (with sound). SOB 40 01:08:45 Street scenes in the town, people with umbrellas. 01:10:57 SOB 41 01:11:35 INT, the crowded church service (sound at first, then cuts out), people standing, various CUs. 01:15:46 BOB 85 Crowd spills outside the church, Catholic mass celebrated in Latin is heard on loudspeakers, people kneel in the grass with umbrellas. 01:17:42 SOB 44 01:17:50 Picture cuts out briefly until 01:18:04. CUs, parishioners under umbrellas outdoors, sounds of the church service cuts in and out. CU, children sharing an umbrella. Baby rocked in carriage. 01:20:35 Man covers the camera with his hand as service continues. Another baby in a stroller. 01:21:43 Elderly woman in kerchief, women and children. Men stand under tree outside of the church in Wlodowa. LS of the crowds gathered at mass. 01:24:06 Several newborns are brought into church to be baptized. SOB 48. 01:25:27 INTs, baptismal service. 01:29:55 Sound cuts out. INTs, church service. SOB 49 01:30:54 End FILM ID 4685 -- White 20 Wlodowa Ville SOB 52 Mute travelling shots from a car of the town of Wlodowa including the former homes of Jewish residents and an amusement park. 01:23:25 End FILM ID 4686 -- White 21 Wlodowa Synagogue SOB 55 EXT of old Wlodowa synagogue. 01:02:08 SOB 56 Outside the synagogue, Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the synagogue is very old, and he replies that the synagogue was built before the Catholic church, and the church is 460 years old. Lanzmann asks how long Jews have lived in Wlodawa, and the man says he has no idea, but that they have always been here. He explains that the Jews are merchants, and almost nomads, and that they arrived here for commerce, stayed, and built the synagogue. The man continues that it is too bad they cannot go inside the synagogue-- it is currently being rehabilitated, and the old paintings inside are being restored. Lanzmann asks for what purpose it is being rehabilitated, and he says that the State is turning it into a museum. He says that Jews came from Palestine and saw the synagogue, which had been turned into shops, and asked for it to be restored. 01:05:18 Coupe, muffled conversation among the crew. 01:05:27 Mute shots of the synagogue. 01:07:04 End FILM ID 4687 -- SOB 45-47 Interview Sortie Messe Wlodowa SOB 45 Lanzmann asks one of the church participants whether he knows what Sobibor is. The man, who tells the crew that he is 65, replies that he is from Wlodawa, so of course he does; he was there. At Sobibor, he says, there was a camp where they burned Jews. The man fought on both fronts during the war, and spent time in Wlodawa during the war and during the German occupation. When asked whether there were Jews in Wlodawa at that time, the man replies that there were a great number-- half the population. When the Germans arrived, he explains, they began deporting Jews to the Sobibor camp, as well as to others. Before the war, he says, the Jews in Wlodawa were largely merchants and artisans. They lived all over town, and another man in the crowd of parishioners (Mr. Filipowicz) explains that the streets where Jews once lived have since been renamed. Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the Jews knew their fate when they were deported from Wlodawa, and he replies that they could not have known exactly what would befall them. Even before the war, though, he says Jews knew they were doomed. They felt it. When Lanzmann asks whether the man is sad about what happened to the Jews, he replies that every faithful Christian thinks that every human being deserves to live. Lanzmann asks whether he got along with the Jews, and he replies that he did and that the non-Jewish residents of Wlodawa did their best to help Jews when there was a ghetto in the town. He explains that it was a transit ghetto, full of Jews from France and Vienna on their way to Sobibor. The ghetto lasted two years, and was totally closed. The ghetto was overseen by German, Polish, Ukrainian, and Jewish police forces. Before the war, the population of Wlodawa was 7500, of whom 4000 were Jews. Shots of the group of Polish men, some of them speak as well. 01:06:10 SOB 46 The man continues on responding to Lanzmann’s questions about a synagogue in Wlodawa. A woman agrees that there was one, and that it was very beautiful. When Poland was still ruled by tsars, the synagogue existed-- it's even older than the Catholic church. Lanzmann asks what has become of the synagogue now that there are no Jews, and they reply that there is still a Jewish family in the town, and that the synagogue has been returned to the state. Lanzmann asks how this family survived the Holocaust, and the gentleman replies that they hid in the forest. He also talks about several families in which the father is Catholic and the mother is Jewish, and the children are raised Catholic. The man cannot remember the names of these families. Lanzmann asks whether there is a Jewish cemetery in Wlodawa, and there were two. The Nazis destroyed the Jewish cemeteries during the war, and after the war, one was turned into a park, where a few of the tombstones still remain visible. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews living in Wlodawa before the war were rich or poor, and he replies that there were all types, but most were small merchants and artisans who were not rich. Lanzmann asks how he experienced, 'the annihilation of the majority of their town's population,' and how he feels about it now. The man replies that they were scared that they would be the next to be targeted. Lanzmann asks whether he prayed for the Jews during that time, and he replies that of course he did. He could not talk about the subject in church, because Germans often waited outside of the church to conduct raids. A church bell rings in the background. Lanzmann asks why the man thinks this all happened to the Jews in particular. The man replies that Hitler's great-grandfather was Jewish, and that Jews assassinated him, so when Hitler became an adult, he decided to avenge his ancestor. Lanzmann makes an allusion to the story of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, and asks whether that might have anything to do with why the gentleman thinks the Jews were exterminated. The man responds that he is not sure, but he is a believer and that when Christ died, he said his death would be avenged, and that he was killed by Jews. 01:13:50 Lanzmann pulls another man out of the group of onlookers, who has something he wants to say. The man wants to make sure that listeners understand that the extermination of Jews took place not only in Wlodawa, but everywhere in Poland. He continues that the Germans simply wanted to exterminate every race that was not their own, starting with the Jews but eventually the Polish people, too. He says that there were two insurrections in Warsaw, one led by Jews and another by Poles. Lanzmann tries to speak to a woman who doesn’t want to answer his questions. Other men in the group of onlookers respond to Lanzmann, saying that everyone in Wlodawa knows what happened, but what they lived through was very different than the French experience, 'like night and day,' and so they cannot discuss it with Lanzmann because he cannot understand. Lanzmann presses the men to speak further, saying that this is precisely why he (Lanzmann) is here in Wlodawa asking these questions, trying to understand. They tell Lanzmann to visit Majdanek, where there is a memorial and all of the proof of what happened, but will not speak to him further, not even when Lanzmann replies that he has already visited. 01:16:46 SOB 47 Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman and one of the men (identified in the transcript as Mr. Filipowicz) who spoke earlier. He asks her why she had thanked him for still being interested in this history. She replies that the war was a very difficult time, where one could not even go to church, and that thankfully life has returned to its normal rhythm. Lanzmann asks her to elaborate about not being able to go to church, and she replies that one could, but that Germans would often station themselves outside of the church at the end of mass, and would conduct raids there. Lanzmann asks her whether Nazis ever shut Jews in the church, and she says no. She continues that she lives in a small village 30 km from Wlodawa, where there were not many Jews. The Jews in her village dressed differently than Poles before the war, and you could recognize them from the rest of the population, but then they began to dress like everyone else, except for the yellow star. Lanzmann asks the woman and man what they think of the Jewish religion. They say they are not very interested in it. The woman continues, however, explaining that Judaism is the oldest religion and that 'our' ten commandments come from Judaism. Lanzmann asks what they think of Jewish religious dress-- their clothes, their beards, etc. (sounds of a church service in the background). Mr. Filipowicz responds that it is not so different from Christian friars who wear religious dress. They discuss Jewish religious dress further, and then Lanzmann asks whether they found the Jews "harmless people or worrisome people." The man replies that they were fairly harmless, and that the only reproach against the Jews was that they engaged in commerce, meaning that they made a lot of money and did not work as hard as the Polish people farming the land. Lanzmann asks whether Polish people now hold those jobs in commerce, and the man replies that they do not, that the Polish government does it. The man discusses Jewish commerce before the war, saying that many Poles preferred to shop in Jewish stores because if they did not have enough money, the Jewish store owners would give them credit and let them pay later. Lanzmann asks whether the Polish state is as good at commerce as the Jews were, and the woman laughs and replies that she is content with it. Lanzmann asks whether the interviewees considered the Jews to be members of the Polish population, or whether they saw them as outsiders. The man replies that they were commonly seen as "full members of the collective Polish society," and that they did Polish military service and worked among and alongside the Polish people. Lanzmann then asks them to show him the part of the town that had been the Jewish ghetto. 01:26:18 Lanzmann walks arm-in-arm with Mr. Filipowicz, children follow as they walk down the street, sounds of the church service. 01:27:04 Picture cuts out. 01:28:20 “Coupe” FILM ID 4688 -- SOB 50.51 Wlodowa Filipowicz SOB 50 Inside traveling car, muffled conversation-- Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and a few Wlodawa residents drive to the area of town where the Jewish ghetto was once located. Mr. Filipowicz explains that the first ghetto was created in 1940, and that a second, closed ghetto was created in 1942. Most of the buildings that were there at the time have been destroyed and rebuilt. Lanzmann asks to see houses where Jews live which still stand. They walk to a street where he points out the houses in which Jews once lived. He knows every house which was owned by Jews, though he cannot remember their names. He points out one of the houses, and recollects watching Germans throw three Jews, including an elderly woman, from the second-story balcony. He points out the home of a man named Yenkel, who was killed in Sobibor, as well as the old locations of different Jewish businesses. They walk through streets where Filipowicz says that before the war, every home was Jewish. Lanzmann asks him several times how he knows so much, and how he remembers the old residents of every single home and building in what was one the Jewish ghetto, but he never truly answers. 01:11:22 SOB 51 Lanzmann and Barbara continue to drive around the old Jewish ghetto of Wlodawa as the local resident, Mr. Filipowicz, points out the locations of what were once Jewish homes and businesses. He shows them the old synagogue, and tells a story of when, as kids, he and friends once caught a bird and set it free in the window of the synagogue during a service, 'just as a joke.' The streets still have the same names they had when Jews lived there. As they continue driving, Lanzmann remarks that the entire town center was Jewish homes and businesses, and the man agrees. He explains that most Poles lived further from the center of town. They drive to the old Jewish cemetery, which is now a park. 01:22:14 End FILM ID 4689 -- White 87 SOB 61-64 Gare Voies (Vu+CL) Snowy shots of the train station and railway tracks. 01:14:43 End FILM ID 4690 -- White 88 Sobibor Foret Gare, Chutes SOB 75 Snowy shots of Sobibor forest and railway tracks. SOB 71 01:14:44 End FILM ID 4691 -- Sobibor Bte 88 Foret Gare More mute shots of the snowy forest. 01:07:57 End FILM ID 4692 -- Sobibor Foret Assembled mute high-angle shots of the lush forest at Sobibor, the train station, and railway tracks. 01:03:19 End

    Lettre Just 5 Juin 1942 (audio only)

    Film

    Claude Lanzmann recites the June 5, 1942 letter from Willy Just to Walter Rauff regarding gas vans in Chelmno for the SHOAH film team in May 1983 in Germany. FILM ID 3637 -- Lettre Just, version 1 FILM ID 3638 -- Lettre Just, version 2 FILM ID 4603 -- Lettre Just, 2 versions (more than two versions read by Lanzmann, 19 minutes)

    AJC offices - New York

    AJC offices - New York

    Film

    FILM ID 4600 -- AJC NY 162-168 Claude Lanzmann interviews an American Jewish Committee (AJC) employee at the New York City office. During the interview the employee acts as a guide, taking Lanzmann on a tour of the building housing the AJC, which is comprised of several departments. The guide explains the main functions of the departments they pass: the Public Education and Information Department, the Foreign Affairs Department, the Domestic Affairs Department and the Library. Overall, the AJC is concerned with maintaining the rights and freedoms of Jews and other minorities. Lanzmann comments that the AJC appears to be a very powerful organization. The guide takes Lanzmann to the Fundraising Department of the AJC. The AJC fosters cooperation with other non-Jewish groups for the mutual goal of freedom and security of all people. Lanzmann points out how this focus on human rights aligns with the sign on the front of the building, which reads, "Institute of Human Relations." By helping non-Jews, as well as Jews, the AJC helps all minorities improve their human rights. 03:44 At the time of the interview, the AJC was approaching its 75th anniversary. The AJC developed and expanded at a tremendous pace after the Holocaust. The guide and another woman tell Lanzmann about the AJC records, which include information on antisemitism, AJC's work before and during the creation of the state of Israel, and the resettlement of Holocaust survivors. FILM ID 4601 -- AJC NY 169-172 [Audio is difficult to hear over background noise] The guide takes Lanzmann to AJC's computer room where a monthly and a quarterly magazine are produced. The modernity and efficiency of the AJC facilitates the completion of their important work, including communication with subscribers and members. The guide tells Lanzmann that she came to the United States as a small child before the war and her family perished in Poland. 05:33 In the Wiener Oral History Library, Lanzmann is introduced to the Director, Irma Krantz. Krantz tells Lanzmann how the Oral History division strives to represent as many different aspects of American Jewish life as possible through its recordings. The guide next takes Lanzmann to the Brownstein Library and introduces him to Sima Horowitz, the Chief Librarian. Since its inception in 1939, the library is primarily concerned with contemporary American Jewish issues. A collection of contemporary antisemitic material consists of antisemitic books written in Braille and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" printed in several different languages as recently as 1975. Horowtz shows Lanzmann a book originally printed in 1936 for very young children as a propaganda piece in English by an organization called "The White Power Publications" in the United States. The book had wide circulation throughout the organization and was donated in 1976. The library also contains newspapers, periodicals, and radio addresses from the Middle East and Russia associated with contemporary antisemitism.

    Dov Schilanski (audio only)

    Film

    Dov Shilanksy (1924-2010) was born in Siauliai, Lithuania. He survived the Holocaust and moved to Israel in 1948. He fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Six-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War. He was an Israeli politician and Speaker of the Knesset from 1988 to 1992. This interview was conducted in the Knesset. FILM ID 3618 -- Schilanski Israel 74 FILM ID 3619 -- Schilanski Israel 75 FILM ID 3620 -- Schilanski Israel 76 FILM ID 3621 -- Schilanski Israel 77 FILM ID 3622 -- Schilanski Israel 78

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Film

    Lanzmann talks to German workers and peasants in the present-day Mengele family factory in Günzburg, Germany. The workers are unresponsive, saying things like, "Auschwitz was part good and part bad." Or that "it's all in the past." Most of them only admit to a vague idea of who Josef Mengele was. FILM ID 3887 -- Shoah Sequence Mengele // image + mixage Color sequence prepared by the editing team in June 1985 possibly for television distribution following the identification of Mengele's body on June 6, 1985. Opening shots of Karl Mengele street signs and farm equipment with the Mengele name. Interviews with workers bringing up Josef's name. Pull back from the tower to the town square in Günzburg. FILM ID 3631 -- Mengele Factory Workers 1 -- prise 1,2 (audio only) FILM ID 3632 -- Mengele Factory Workers 2 -- prise 1,2,3,4,5 (audio only) FILM ID 3633 -- Mengele Factory Workers 3 (audio only)

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Film

    As chief of the German Reichsbahn, Albert Ganzenmüller was responsible for the employment of deportation trains. In July 1942, he wrote a letter to Karl Wolff describing the deportation trains from Warsaw to Malkinia to Treblinka. Claude Lanzmann talks about the letter by Ganzenmueller in a short recording in French. FILM ID 4605 -- Ganzenmueller 1-6 Chemin de Fer

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Film

    FILM ID 3869 -- Camera Rolls Goldberg 176,177 No clapperboard. Audio operator speaking French and street noise to 1:34. Lanzmann and Corinna Coulmas start by asking Malka Abramson Goldberg about her business, children, and grandchildren. Goldberg then tells them that she was in the Warsaw ghetto, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Ravensbrück, and Malhof before immigrating first to Sweden and then to the city in which the interview takes place (probably Tel Aviv). At Lanzmann's prompting, Goldberg explains that she was part of the resistance, but does not remember specific dates such as when she was arrested or when she arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Malka's husband Jakob helps Goldberg with the timeline of her camp experiences and, after Lanzmann asks whether or not they know the song, Goldberg and the men sing part of the Yiddish resistance song "Undzer shtetl brent!" ("Our Town is Burning!"). After a brief break and more prompting by Lanzmann and Corinna, they sing a bit more of the song. FILM ID 3870 -- Coupe Varsovie Silent shots of street scenes in Israel (probably Tel Aviv). Goldberg and the two men in a shop.

    Israel

    Israel

    Film

    Location filming of the desert landscape, cemeteries, the city of Jerusalem, and life at the seashore in Tel Aviv, Israel for SHOAH. FILM ID 3611 -- Tel Aviv. Bor de Mer. Prieres Dizengov People milling about the seaside in Tel Aviv. Camera pans out to show more people on the beach and cars parked on the grass. Two armed soldiers walk by and smile at the camera. 01:01:38 Man holds clapper indicating camera roll 85. People fishing, children look at the camera filming them. Camera pans over beach and shore. Camera focuses in on a mother talking to her young son, then out over the sea and coast. A man sits by the sea. CUs, families. A group of adults gathers to read. Adults and children look with interest at the camera filming them. 01:14:08 The sun sets while a group of Hasidic men walk down to the seashore and read from the Torah. One man from the group notices they are being filmed, he waves for the filming to stop. Scenes of the sea. Looking out at the sea, the group of men sway as they sing. 01:20:18 A bulldozer at the beach. Night has fallen, and a group of people sit further inland. Some wave at the camera. FILM ID 4722 -- Jerusalem 1-12. Les Remparts. Le Mur. (14:45) Landscapes, including cypress trees, dirt and sand overlooking the water. Church of Mary Magdalene located on the Mt. of Olives. Houses on the hill and stone walls. Cars driving on the road and houses. A boy runs after dogs/cats, and a woman joins him. Stone walls, homes, buildings along the hillside. Dome of the Rock, old city of Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa Mosque. Wall and rocky terrain. Tower of David museum. Roads. FILM ID 4723 -- Jerusalem 13-42. Meah Shearim (24:34) Several men (Hasidic Jews) in black coats with long beards and tallit gather together on wooden benches talking, sunny day. Men walk along the street and then on the sidewalk. 01:03:25 Man pushes stroller through crowded sidewalk. Busy street scenes with pedestrians, buses and cars. “Ban Hapoalim” building, people stand around outside. 01:05:55 Narrow street, people walking around, some carrying packages. Some graffiti in Hebrew on the walls and buildings. 01:13:25:05 Marketplace. FILM ID 4724 -- Jerusalem 43-62. Rues Vides Kippur (18:03) Street scenes. Cars parking along residential side roads. 01:02:38 Pedestrians. Residential neighborhood filmed from a moving vehicle, moving into a commercial area with traffic lights and stores. Return to neighborhood streets, pedestrians walking along the street. There are banners in Hebrew hanging between the buildings and families along the sidewalk. More street scenes. FILM ID 4725 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 1-7. Ceremonie FILM ID 4726 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 8. Calme FILM ID 4727 -- Cimetierre + Kfar Iona FILM ID 4728 -- Kippur 1-30. Shabbat (33:30) Temple mount and Dome of the Rock. Western Wall. 01:02:48 A close up of praying at the Western Wall. Wooden arc, men sitting on benches and in chairs talking and praying. Tables covered with burgundy velvet covers with gold Jewish stars. Shots alternamte between the Dome of the Rock and the Western Wall. 01:12:28:06 Israeli soldier stands on the wall. Dome of the Rock is in the distance. Men pray, soldiers on the radio. 01:25:51 Large group of teens dancing, arms around shoulders, swaying in one long line. They form a circle while other people are praying. Then they circle forms into one big cluster. FILM ID 4729 -- Kippur 50-58. 65-83. (15:59) At the Western Wall, men are praying. Men stand by a wooden arc with tables and chairs. Men are dressed casually and formally. Dome of the Rock and Israeli soldier. Women praying. Soldiers. Dusk begins and night falls. Crowds at the Western Wall. FILM ID 4730 -- Kippur 59-64. 31-34. Fin Kippur 35-49. 84. Veille Kippur. (20:52) Men praying at the Western Wall, closing in on their faces devoutly praying. 01:04:34 Young men in a large circle swaying at Western Wall. Men leaving, shaking hands with one another. Older Hasidic man with long beard departing. 01:08:39 Nighttime at Dome of the Rock. Men in a circle at the wall. Switches back to daytime at Western Wall. 01:17:01 Two soldiers at the black booth before the Western Wall. Dome of the Rock and Western Wall. FILM ID 4731 -- Paysages Divers I / orangeraie, champ de coton, el arch (10:04) Highway. Pan to a field of orange trees. Small plane flying over. Field of white flowers. 01:05:30 Israeli soldier on the road. People gathered. Donkeys and carts, children. 01:08:08 Soldiers getting into a truck. FILM ID 4732 -- Paysages Divers II / orthodoxe Kfar Iona Lochamei Hage. FILM ID 4733 -- Plans Muets Journaux Petits Annonces 242, 243, 244 (24:57) Newspaper headlines/articles, CUs, silent. 01:01:43 Prag, Freitag, Den 1. Dezember 1944 “Organ des altestenrates der juden”. “Regierungsverordnung” vom 13. Oktober 1944. Advertisement for “A. Schafer” with a Jewish star on either side of the name. Title of the paper “Judische Rundschau”. Panning to other ads “Palestine & Orient Lloyd”. 01:07:36 “Aus der Rechtsprechung”. “Palestine Agricultural Settlement Association, Ltd. Jerusalem." More advertisements: “Haifa die Perle von Palastina” Savoy Hotel. “Judische Rundschau” Berlin. Article: “Selbstvertrauen trotz Sorgen” 5 March 1937. Headline “Probleme der judischen Umsiedlung” 1 December 1939. FILM ID 4734 -- Deserts / Sinai. Judee. Negev. Mitspe Ramon / Bte. 60,61,63,64 (7:08) Construction vehicles and green fields in the distance. Road through the desert. 01:03:56 Roads from inside a vehicle. Slate: “Bob 47” on the dashboard. Hills and a small town in the distance. FILM ID 4735 -- Deserts / dont il existe des retirages couleurs

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Film

    Bronislaw Falborski witnessed the deportation of Jews from Kolo to Chelmno. He talks about the speed of the gas vans. This interview takes place in Falborski’s home in Poland and was recorded during Lanzmann’s second trip to Poland. FILM ID 3809 -- Camera Rolls 1-5 CR 1;2;3 (Rue à Midevits) CU, framed painting of Mary nursing baby Jesus on the wall. Mr. Falborski was the private driver for May from the autumn of 1941 to 1942. May lived in the house of a former forest warden, named Gay, in a town near Kolo. Falborski also lived in the house of an evicted forest warden. The wardens had been evicted because they were Polish. Falborski did not know German that well when he first began working for May, but after one year they could communicate without gestures. May supervised the German forest wardens in the area. Lanzmann asks when Falborski first learned of the exterminations in Chelmno. CR 4 (Tyzem) Falborski was almost shot the first time he went to Chelmno. He had parked the car in the forest to let May out, and decided to follow May into the woods. About 100 meters along the forest path he was stopped by a Gestapo who demanded to know what Falborski was doing in the woods. The Gestapo had his gun aimed at Falborski when May came back and stopped Falborski from being shot. He moved the car back to a forest warden's house. The state employee who lived there told Falborski that Jews were being exterminated in the forest. Falborski did not discuss this with May, but with May's wife. Falborski claims he cannot say anything bad about May, as was always treated well by him. Falborski went to the forest many times, as well as the village of Chelmno. Falborski describes how the Polish citizens of Chelmno had been evicted and the castle became the designated camp for the Jews. CR5 (Tyzem) Gas vans would leave the castle at the same time empty vans from the forest would return. Typically, two people sat in the front of the grey vans. They drove the vans slowly, at a calculated speed, so that the people inside would die before the van reached the forest. Once, a forest warden named Sendjak told Farboski a van had skidded. The Jewish prisoners fell out of the back of the van, still alive, and started to crawl on the ground. One of the Gestapo drivers shot them with his revolver. They Gestapo men then made the Jews of the Sonderkommando put the bodies back in the van and took them to be dumped in the clearing. The mass graves were roughly 500 to 700 meters from the road. Though he never went near the graves, Falborski and May could smell the odor of the decaying bodies. This was the only time the two men referred to the Jews. FILM ID 3810 -- Camera Roll 6 CR6 Falborski knew what was happening in Chelmno because a young man in the Gestapo told him. The man told Falborski that Jews entering the camp were told they had to go through a disinfection process. Before they were taken away, their jewelry and gold teeth were forcibly removed. Finally, they were forced into the vans and taken to the forest. In Kolo, the city where Falborski lived, the Jews were grouped together at the synagogue and then chased by Germans to the train station which took them to Chelmno.

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Film

    Josef Oberhauser was a SS officer in Belzec. He was interviewed in a Munich beer hall and refuses to answer many of Lanzmann's questions. Oberhauser answers Lanzmann's questions regarding the beer he sells, but refuses to respond to questions concerning his days as an SS officer in Belzec. Lanzmann attempts to interview former SS officer Mr. Oberhauser in the beer hall where he works. Trying to warm Oberhauser up to an interview, Lanzmann asks Oberhauser how many liters of beer he sells a day. After asking several times, Oberhauser answers that he sells 450 liters a day. He tells Lanzmann that he has worked in the beer house for twenty years, and that the best beer comes from the tap. When Lanzmann asks if he remembers Belzec, Oberhauser becomes quiet. He does not respond when Lanzmann asks further probing questions, or when Lanzmann requests to arrange an interview at another location. FILM ID 4609 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser. Belzec / CHUTES People in town square, Max-Joseph-Platz in Munich. Restaurant-- Franziskaner Poststüberl. Inside restaurant, full of people on a regular business day. The camera crew films the beer hall staff, including Oberhauser who refuses to speak. (05:47) Photograph of SS officer Christian Wirth, the first commandant of Belzec (Oberhauser's superior), in Nazi uniform is held in front of the camera. FILM ID 4610 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser / Belzec Breme 1-9 / DOUBLES EXT, Franziskaner Poststüberl. Patrons dine. Kitchen staff.

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Film

    Minibus with equipment for hidden camera interviews, staged in the suburbs of Paris at Saint Cloud, near the LTC Studio where the final film's editing was done, in May 1983. This could have been staged in France rather late in the film's production to illustrate a sequence about the hidden camera interviews for the final film (note the closeups of the minibus and the "home" of a perpetrator -- the zoom into a specific window, for instance). FILM ID 3452 -- Ext. Camionnette / Camera Rolls 1-4-6, 14-26 Several sequences showing exteriors of the red-striped Volkswagen minibus with the equipment for transmitting Lanzmann's hidden camera interviews. The minibus arrives at a residential destination and parks. The driver exits the vehicle and enters the back using a sliding side door. The camera zooms in on several residences, homes, and apartments. 01:04:48 Collision with fast-moving lorry. FILM ID 3665 -- Camion en planque Several takes of the minibus. This reel was probably filmed in Germany to correspond to the interview with Stier, RG-60.5064

    Auschwitz

    Auschwitz

    Film

    Location filming of Auschwitz and Birkenau in winter for SHOAH. FILM ID 3451 -- Auschwitz 48D-64B / Birkenau int. camp (white label 69) -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:25 Museum sign on Auschwitz-Birkenau grounds in four languages regarding the cremating pits, mass transports, and extermination. WS sign, remains of crematorium in BG, guard-tower. WS building remains, sign regarding the destruction of the crematorium by the Sonderkommando in 1944. Pan of snow-covered camp grounds. Quick shot of Lanzmann with fur hat standing in the field. CU, reeds, barbed wire fence, building remains, pan. 01:05:13 HAS of the barracks, panning along the barbed wire fence. 01:07:32 Railway going to main entrance. 01:08:20 Quick view of Lanzmann in a coat and fur hat. Pan of snow-covered ruins, pit, ground, pan up to barbed-wire fence and building rubble. "Krematorium II" sign. More pans of the camp grounds, lake, fence, guard tower. FILM ID 3612 -- Majdanek R.1 / Auschwitz Bte. 21.22 / Chutes 13 (white label 13/14) -- 01:00:12 to 01:11:13 Large cross decorated with a wreath on a roadside. Shots of snow-covered fields in Poland from a moving vehicle. CR22 Slow pan of homes in a village in Poland in late winter (near Oswiecem?). Local Poles stand in the doorway of a building with horse-drawn carriages. More views of housing in the town. 01:05:47 LS, slow pan of grassy fields. Muddy road. CU, tall wooden pillar with a cross at the top. More housing in town, locals, dirt roads, religious statues. Church. Snow-covered field. FILM ID 4698 -- White 41.42 Birkenau Canada Pet Ferme Cendres Camp surrounded by posts. LS, Birkenau surrounded by green fields. Fog everywhere. (2:58) Large piles of coal, with train tracks running beside. (4:10) A horse drawn cart stops next to the piles of coal. (4:37) Entryway of a courtyard, train tracks. (5:00) Birkenau entrance. (5:28) Fields separated by short posts. Small guard towers. (7:12) A perimeter fence with lamps. Barbed wire runs across the top of the fence. (7:52) A horse drawn cart stops in the field, and a man works beside the horse. (8:13) The camp from outside the perimeter fence, guard tower. (8:48-10:34) Reel break - there is no image. (10:36) Perimeter fence and guard tower. Set of steps leading down into the ground, and brick walls on either side. The underground steps lead to the ruins of a large underground room and leads to a crumbling set of ruins. (14:43) Crumbling ruins in the field. (15:26) Smooth floors in the ruins of a building. (16:52) Crematorium with chimneys, ruins of the camp. (19:22) A long, underground hallway with a platform. (20:04) Camera moves along train tracks towards the entrance. (20:56) Perimeter fences. (21:06) Train tracks beside the fields surrounded by perimeter fences and guard towers. (21:24-26:52) Reel break - picture missing. (26:54) A small pond surrounded by trees. (27:34) Larger body of water with brick walls. (29:10) A bare tree in a field, beside it is a low stone wall, and countless old spoons, forks, and a bowl. FILM ID 4699 -- White 43.44 Birkenau Voies-Maquette Chutes (14:44) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. (0:53) Train tracks. (2:27) Claude stands on a road next to the train tracks and walks alongside the tracks. (5:15) Overgrown tracks. Tracks with perimeter fence fields on either side. Birkenau from a distance. (6:46) Train tracks with power lines. A train goes by. (8:13) Tower beside the train tracks. (8:50) Empty train tracks with railway cars on the side. A town is off to the left. (10:23) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. A group of people walk beside the fence on the left. (11:26) The steam of a train engine. (11:52) "Model Krematorium II” with figurines, close-ups. FILM ID 4700 -- White 45 Valises (08:00) CUs luggage: “Friedrich Neumann. 1890. CF97” “Carl Israel Hafner. Wien I. Biberstr. 14” “Ernst Morgenstern. 7688.” A pile of empty baskets. More luggage: “Marta Sa. Schlesinger, 187” “AAw490. Jng Aussenerg Richard. XVIII - Schlickstrasse 34” “S.L. Steinberg Ludwig” “1018 Tekla Placzek” “A.Demiranda. 9.11.92. Holland” “Bernh Israel Aronsohn. Hamberg. Kielortallee 22. Evak.NR.1849” “Dr.K.Fleischmann. Arzt” Pan over the suitcases.(00:02:46) Different suitcases: "Sidonie Sara. Fuchs. Wien. Yiylzŭsg.” “Klein. Peter. 942. AU 1003.” “Stefan Gross. Mahr Ostrau. 854.” “Z591. Popper Hugo. 28.12.1874.” “Hans Fried Leipnik. 1540.” “Meyer. J. 05377” “Adele Sara. Wien, II Eilienbrunng” “Helga Tichauer-Cohn. Tt.Nr.1613” Suitcase with crossed out writing: “Issac Querido. 16-9-04. Holland” and replaced in red with: “Catharina Querido - 8-12-04” Another suitcase, “Jakob Wenger Litzmannstadt.” “Olto Israel Schönhof. Gel: 25.8.70 Offenbach a/m. keñOrt: Offenbach A/m. KeñN: A.oo513” Camera pans out showing a pile of suitcases. More steady shots. (00:06:36) “Singer Leon. 1.3.84” “Berta Wachsmann” "Dr.Kurt Weiluner” “Klara Sara Goldstein” (00:07:06) CU, “Maria Karfka. Prag XIII-833” “Transport No. Berta Sara Rosenthal. Berline Chbg. Uhlandstr. 194” Pan out, and CU, “Sal. Freitag. 18.7.97. Holland. (00:07:40) End. FILM ID 4701 -- White 46 Archives. Ville. Chutes (13:41) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 41” “Auschwitz Archives” Two black and white photographs of Nazis - on the left: “Beuermann Heinrich [Oświęcim ]” and on the right: “Danilowitz Otto, SS - Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” More photos - on the left: “Brong Uvar, kz. Oświęcim.” On the right: “Hagel Jozef, SS -Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” Next: “Münk, aufseher Birkenau,” [Overseer of Birkenau.] (0.53) A black and white photo of a Nazi leading a horse. (1.05) Headshot of a man in a suit. (1.22) Crematorium. (2.11) A crematorium under construction. (2.26) Courtyard with partial gallows in the center. (2.56) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 40” “Auschwitz Archives” (3.04) Black and white photos of prisoners corralled into a line by soldiers next to a railway tracks. (3.17) Railcars with German soldiers. (3.29) Several black and white photos of men staring directly into the camera in front of train cars. One man has an armband wrapped around his sleeve. (4.10) Women and children by the railcar with star badges. (5.19) More prisoners with star badges. (6.55) Piles in front of a train. (7.09) Someone walks away from the camera carrying a large item. Wrapped items at their feet. (7.24) Bags strewn across the ground in front of a train. (7.31) People stand in front of houses, a cart pulled by two horses on the right. Germans stand in a low ditch between buildings. (7.54) Three photos of children. (8.05) Four malnourished children. (8.35) Soldiers burning bodies. (8.55) A telegram of the secret police, written on April 9, 1944 and received April 11, 1944. (9.45) City of Oswiecem, Poland - street with colorful buildings and a church steeple in the background. Local Polish people walk around. FILM ID 4702 -- White 66 Auschwitz 32-43 Gare Vieille Rampe (23:37) CR AUS 32. Railcar tracks with empty train cars. Pan to active platforms of the Oswiecim station. Clock indicates 1:23pm. Train arrives in station, drops off passengers and picks up others. Signs, “Katowice prezez Mysłowice” “Peron 3. Tor 9” “Peron 3. Tor 5” “do wyjscia” Train conductor hangs out the window and checks the time. "AUS 33" Crew member taps the boom mic with the take number. Watch tower for the railway. Man walks across the bridge. Train arrives. Lanzmann in a hat signals. He is with men in uniform. CU of incoming train. CR 34. INT, tower. Tracks. Man in the tower. (00:09:17) "AUS 36" More tracks. Zoom in to entrance to Auschwitz through the fog. CU of the tracks next to Auschwitz. "AUS 42" Stationary train carts. "AUS 43" Muddy road. Tracks. CU, the entrance to Auschwitz. (00:15:13) Back at the first active railway station, local passengers move about. Pan of the tracks. A train pulls through a station. CU, entrance to Auschwitz. Quick shots of Lanzmann. Another moving train. "AUS 38" "AUS 39" The tracks end at Auschwitz. (00:22:45) CU, carriage cars on the tracks. "AUS 47" FILM ID 4703 -- White 67 Auschwitz 15-31E / Blocs 10.11 Ch. Gaz (23:26) Path at Auschwitz with perimeter fences on either side. The path leads to a guard tower. Snow on the barbed wire fence. “Blok Smierci” plaque above the door at Block 11. Memorial for the execution wall at Block 11, with flowers hanging from it and on the ground in front of it. There is a flag flying on the opposite side of the courtyard. Closer shots of the memorial. (9:17) Dimly lit INTs, gas chamber with barred window close to the ceiling.The number “13” in blue above a doorway. The room is small. Stretcher with a hole in it is leaning against the wall. There are striped clothes laid next to the stretcher. (13:25) A room with a long table with a white table cloth. There are pieces of paper laid out on the table. (15:11) EXTs, barracks. (17:00-18:23) Reel change, there is no image. Open air grates in the courtyard. Inside them are barred windows. The room with the blue 13 on the doorway. Dimly lit INTs, 4 small crematoriums on the wall. A square chimney in the ground, surrounded by snow. (22:14) HAS, visitors to the Auschwitz memorial walk out of the gas chamber with the large chimney attached to it. FILM ID 4704 -- White 68 Auschwitz 44A-46.48 / Musee (08:37) CU of suitcases within the museum. Some names are legible: “Edith Weisz” “Paula Furth” “Minska, Hanna” “Kind Weissbrod” “Singer, Leon” “Berta Wachmann” “Dr.Kurt WieLuner”. A pile of baskets are mixed in with the suitcases. More shots of the suitcases: “ Hajek, Franz” “Ludwig Israel Baruch” “Levi” CU of a suitcase with a transport number and a faded name. (00:03:54) A large pile of shoes behind glass. "AUS 34" "AUS 36" Large piles of victims' property: crutches, prosthetic legs, and shoes. "AUS 45" Pots, bowls and dishes. Toothbrushes. Hairbrushes. Other objects.

    Pery Broad

    Pery Broad

    Film

    Pery Broad spent two years as a guard in Auschwitz Birkenau. Broad voluntarily wrote a report of his activities whilst working for the British as a translator in a POW camp after the war. The Broad Report corroborates extermination installations and the burning of corpses. This interview was filmed in 1979 with a hidden camera, known as a Paluche, which caught fire. FILM ID 3438 -- Camera Rolls 1A -- 02:00:18 to 02:12:29 Lanzmann and Broad begin the interview by discussing the recently presented television miniseries, Holocaust. Broad states that he can face the past, but cannot dominate it. FILM ID 3439 -- Camera Rolls 2A,3A,4A -- 03:00:12 to 03:26:09 Roll 2A The Holocaust would not have been possible were it not for the collaboration of several European countries. Broad expands on this by mentioning the train cars that took Jews to the camps always left the camps empty, implying that ordinary people who witnessed these events knew what was going on. Broad claims he cannot comprehend racial discrimination and anti-Semitism. 03:15:04 Roll 3A Broad refuses on principle to participate in interviews for television programs like the BBC, or for books, regarding the Holocaust. 03:19:17 Roll 4A Lanzmann and Broad discuss the report Broad wrote, specifically the atmosphere of the camp described in the report. FILM ID 3441 -- Camera Rolls 5,6,7 -- 05:00:13 to 05:25:14 Roll 5 Citizens of the town of Auschwitz knew what was occurring in the nearby camps. Lanzmann wants Broad's permission to ask specific questions and to record them with a tape recorder. Broad is visibly uncomfortable and asks that Lanzmann first ask the question without the recorder. Lanzmann asks Broad if he remembers a Jewish Kapo named Jakubowitz, in Block 11 of Auschwitz. Broad remembers he was a boxer who was responsible for taking care of the dead bodies after executions, and physically man-handled prisoners soon to be executed. He describes him as a "very big man," and "primitive." Broad claims to have seen only two or three executions in Block 11, because he worked mostly in Birkenau at the Zigeunerlager, the portion of the camp designated for Roma. Broad draws an aerial view of the camp for Lanzmann, showing the crematoria, Roma section and women's camp. It was difficult for the authorities of Auschwitz-Birkenau to identify Roma families as they went by nicknames. 05:10:01 Roll 6 Broad began working in Birkenau in 1943, after working in Auschwitz. He attempted to leave Auschwitz several times. He tried to leave for the front but was denied because his eye sight was bad. He went back to the main part of the camp and never returned to the Roma camp. 05:13:37 Roll 7 Lanzmann states that testimonies of people who worked at the camps, as opposed to prisoners, give a more complete geographical and topographical account of the layout of the camps. Broad mentions the aerial image of Auschwitz taken by Americans during the Holocaust as well as the map he drew in 1945. Both are available to the public. Broad states that the prisoners never exhibited any violence prior to their gassing as they were too emotionally and physically tormented by that point. In order to become an interpreter for the Reich Main Security Office, Broad had to work for the SS in Auschwitz. He was depressed and very ill there, claiming he lost all interest in life. He was twenty-one years old. FILM ID 3442 -- Camera Rolls 8-11 -- 06:02:01 to 06:18:38 Roll 8 Broad describes a meeting his aunt arranged with a Mr. Baumert, a member of the Nazi party paramilitary. Baumert proposed that Broad go to Stuttgart to become an SD officer. Broad refused the offer. Baumert told Broad that nobody was being killed in Auschwitz, that his friend Höss would have told him so. Broad states that Baumert was fully aware of what was going on, but did not want to admit it. During this meeting, Baumert told Broad that he had received negative reports on Broad. The reports regarded his perceived Bolshevik activities while a student and later at Auschwitz. However, nothing ever came of the negative reports, Broad thinks due to the level of respect his aunt had within the Nazi party. Broad's aunt knew Hitler through her father, who was a professor in Berlin and a painter. Lanzmann asks Broad how the two transports of Czech families from the Theresienstadt camp behaved when they were led to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. 06:11:26 Roll 9 Broad is unable to corroborate the extreme violence the SS guards placed on the Czech families before they were gassed. Broad talks about a story he heard during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. 06:14:45 Rolls 10-11 When the escapees from Auschwitz told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. Broad compares this disbelief to the behavior of the Hungarian prisoners at Auschwitz, explaining that their disbelief at their situation caused them not to react violently when let to the gas chambers. Broad believes the prisoners could have escaped easily if 2000 of them had rushed the fence. He claims there was no barbed wire on the fences and that they were not electrified. FILM ID 3437 -- Camera Rolls 1,2,1A,2A -- Rushes -- 01:00:09 to 01:31:10 Roll 1 Interiors of the minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. Two technicians monitor the video and audio transmission. The picture goes in and out. Broad speaks in English about prisoners of Auschwitz and the ability to escape (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11). You can also hear the camera crew in the van in French. 01:05:38 Roll 2 Again from inside the minibus with the technicians speaking in French. The picture goes in and out. Broad talks about a story he heard of during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. When they told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11) 01:11:13 From inside the minibus, a crew member introduces Roll 1(1A?). He says something like "trying to tune into Perry Broad, we are interested in what he has to say. We will choose what Claude is interested in. There is no image, we only have the rushes." Broad claims he only entered the crematoria at Birkenau after it was shut down. He can describe the crematoria in detail because he had a friend who worked at the building administration for the camp. Plans of the camp, including the gas chambers, were publicly available. The crematorium looked like a factory. Lanzmann and Broad discuss the layout of the different crematoria. Broad describes an instance when a Sonderkommando said to a guard "give me one bread and I'll slaughter a hundred Jews." 01:22:27 From inside the minibus, the man on the left says "Perry Broad 2" as he uses the clapper (Roll 2A?). Broad shows Lanzmann the sentence leveled against him in the aftermath of the Holocaust. He describes a witness at his trial who overheard a conversation Broad had with a woman who had just arrived at the camp. When she asked if they were going to be murdered he told her not to believe the stories the inmates told. This account proved Broad's presence at the ramp during the selection process. Lanzmann adds that the Kanada Kommando, the Jewish inmates in charge of collecting victim's belongings, said the same thing to other prisoners about to be murdered. FILM ID 3440 -- Camera Rolls 3,4 -- Camion Exterior -- 04:00:10 to 04:03:10 Exteriors of the red and white Volkswagen minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. The minibus is parked on Eugen-Langen Str. CUs, antenna. MS, apartment complex. Another shot of the exterior of the van and antenna. FILM ID 3443 -- Camera Rolls 11-13A -- Int. Camion Broad -- 07:00:13 to 07:10:56 Views of an apartment balcony from a small window inside the minibus. A man (Broad?) is on the balcony. Zoom back to see inside the back of the minibus with equipment and crew recording the hidden camera interview. Broad can seen on the two video monitors in black and white. Zoom back to the outside through the window. 07:04:44 New roll shows the technicians inside the minibus, with sound. 07:08:14 Another roll from inside the minibus, zooming out the window to the balcony, no sound. --- The following reels contain audio only. --- FILM ID 3667 -- Broad 1 -- see picture above in FV3438 (Camera Roll 1A) and FV3439 (Camera Roll 2A). FILM ID 3668 -- Broad 2 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Rolls 2A,3A) (FV3439). This audio roll begins with a some minutes of non-interview related chatter. FILM ID 3669 -- Broad 3 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Roll 4A) and FV3441 (Camera Roll 5) FILM ID 3670 -- Broad 4 -- see picture above in FV3441 (Camera Rolls 6,7) FILM ID 3671 -- Broad 5 -- see picture above in FV3442 (Camera Rolls 8-11) FILM ID 3682 -- Broad 16 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 1,1A) FILM ID 3683 -- Broad 17 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 2A) FILM ID 3672 -- Broad 6 Lanzmann asks if the reason Broad did not give names in his report was out of solidarity with the perpetrators. Broad dismisses this idea, claiming he did not care about the names of the butchers but rather the destiny of the inmates. FILM ID 3673 -- Broad 7 Broad witnessed one gassing while working at Auschwitz. He witnessed unidentified SS men wearing gas masks pour Zyklon B through the roofs of the gas chambers. He saw two or three executions in the courtyard of Block 11, which the Gestapo Grabner and his staff where responsible for. Broad says he was lucky not to have to deal with the prisoners directly. Directly killing so many people was too much even for the SS, and so the gas chambers came into existence. Killings in the courtyard were very different, they were not anonymous and they were deliberately horrific. Broad fainted once from watching an execution in Block 11. FILM ID 3674 -- Broad 8 They take a break to drink a bottle of champagne and discuss work. Lanzmann asks if Broad had any friends in the SS, to which he replies there is no such thing. He had a German friend named Karl Hueges who had to join the SS to avoid being put in a concentration camp himself. He was a Communist who according to Broad hated the SS. Yet after being imprisoned after the war in Ukraine, he became sympathetic to the Nazi regime. FILM ID 3675 -- Broad 9 As an example of what he terms "the grotesque," Broad tells a story about an Jew named Unikower who was arrested by the Soviets after he was liberated from Auschwitz. In response to a question from Lanzmann Broad says he does not remember Yossele [Josef] Rosensaft, the so-called King of Bergen-Belsen. Broad defends his actions at Auschwitz by saying that he did not tell anyone about the activities and statements of Eisenschimmel, the Kapo of the Effektenkammer ["Kanada"], and that Dunia Wasserstrom, a survivor and witness at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, did not accuse him of murder. He provides another example of a witness who said that Broad disobeyed an order to send Jews to their deaths. When Lanzmann asks him whether anyone spoke against him at the trial Broad says yes but it was proved later that they could not have known him. Lanzmann asks Broad about the Auschwitz Hefte and Broad says he read them in prison and found them quite objective. Broad confirms that there was a brothel in the main camp and states that it was staffed with German prisoners, not Jews, because of the prohibition against race mixing (Rassenschande). He says that the brothel was used by privileged prisoners, not by the SS, "what would Himmler have said?" FILM ID 3676 -- Broad 10 Broad remembers the SS Officer Johann Schwarzhuber, but not specific instances of his cruelty. Broad says that he doesn't have much to tell Lanzmann about Schwarzhuber or about Mengele. He says he remembered Mengele having a good relationship with the Roma and with the Jewish camp doctor and he found the later allegations against Mengele incomprehensible. Lanzmann asks whether Broad was at the selection ramp many times and Broad says that he was not assigned any duties at the ramp. Broad witnessed the selection process at the ramp on numerous occasions, and would even talk with the Jews to learn where they came from. The group takes a break to eat and discuss languages and French literature. FILM ID 3677 -- Broad 11 Still eating dinner, Broad discusses how he did not discover he was a Brazilian citizen until 1936-37. At the outbreak of the war at the age of 21, Broad was happily studying in Berlin. While trying to extend his stay in Germany, he was told to leave since the war was starting. As he had no money, he could not consider that option. One architect raised an argument with Broad after reading his postwar statement implicating the Germans in atrocities. Sound very muffled. Broad, Lanzmann, and Corinna speak French, English and German but the conversation is not discernable. Despite being a Brazilian citizen, Broad had to prepare to be sent to the front. His aunt arranged for Broad to sit for an exam to become a translator, after which he received an offer from the SS. FILM ID 3678 -- Broad 12 Broad began his military training in Finland and then Greece. He describes how he was an unfit soldier and a failure in Nazi eyes. Humorously, he describes his physique to have been like a spider. Deemed unsuitable for service, he was sent to work at Auschwitz, where he claims he had no idea what it was. Lanzmann asks whether Broad believes a man such as SS Officer Christian Wirth, in charge of the nationwide euthanasia program, can be believed when he claimed he had no idea what Sobibor was before he arrived there. Lanzmann seems to imply that he does not believe Broad when he claims he had no idea what Auschwitz was. Broad describes the camp overseer, Wilhelm Boger, as a primitive man who believed in the Nazi agenda and was thus convinced of his innocence for the tortures he committed. FILM ID 3679 -- Broad 13 Broad doubts that his aunt had anything to do with sending him to work at Auschwitz. Her family was very rich and her father had painted Hitler. He arrived at Auschwitz in April 1942. He describes how over a period of a couple months he learned the true nature of Auschwitz. A German Kapo told him more about the camp. He heard rumors of gassings, but none of the guards dared to discuss it. Broad smelled the stench of burning corpses, but didn't think anything of it since people died all the time from illness and were burned. FILM ID 3680 -- Broad 14 Lanzmann and Broad argue about the layout of Block 11. Broad witnessed Ruldof Mildner, head of the political department at Auschwitz, interrogate a boy who had stolen margarine. FILM ID 3681 -- Broad 15 The political department at Block 11 followed protocols. The tried prisoners were interrogated and examined by medical doctors before their executions. Everything was recorded. Before the construction of the four crematoriums, two small farmhouses served as the gassing sites. They discuss the mass graves where the bodies were later dug up by the Kommando 1005 of Vilna, in an effort to destroy evidence of the atrocities committed. Sound of running water. Some French. Nobody speaks for a period of time. They discuss the title of an article (The Tour Guide through Hell) that appeared in "Die Zeit" newspaper about Broad. Broad says that there were things that happened during the Auschwitz trial that could also be termed "grotesque." He says that some members of the Israeli secret service were at the trial but he wasn't sure why or what they meant to accomplish. Lanzmann asks why in his report, Broad does not refer to himself using the word, "Ich/I." Broad says that the numerous investigators may have convinced him to not use the German word "Ich/I" in case he described an event he himself did not witness. Lanzmann comments that often people do not use the word "Ich/I" so they may distance themselves from the reality of what happened. FILM ID 3684 -- Broad 18 Lanzmann and Broad discuss the maximum speed of Broad's new Opel. They read over the documentation about the fine that Broad received as part of the judgment against him. Lanzmann says in English that he feels like Germany hasn't changed much, that his fine could have been imposed by a Nazi. Broad continues to complain about the judgment against him and seems to be paging through a document because he wants to show Lanzmann something in particular. He continues to complain about his legal problems and Lanzmann says he is tired he must go. Broad attempts to get Lanzmann to stay for one more cigarette. Lanzmann agrees and Broad announces that he thinks this will be the last time he talks about Auschwitz. FILM ID 3685 -- Broad 19 Broad tells Lanzmann that he was afraid before the interview that he would again become depressed after recounting the events of Auschwitz. Yet, he admits that Lanzmann showed sensitivity while interviewing him. Lanzmann says he came back to interview Broad after three years and he still does not fully understand him. They end the interview for the day. FILM ID 3686 -- Broad 20 Lanzmann and Broad say their good-byes and Lanzmann departs. Lanzmann and his assistant Corinna Coulmas talk about how the camera was out of action. FILM ID 3687 -- Broad 21 Cinematographer Dominique Chapuis listens and comments in French while watching part of the interview. FILM ID 3688 -- Broad 22 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back. FILM ID 3689 -- Broad 23 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back.

    New York

    New York

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in New York City for SHOAH. FILM ID 3449 -- Camera Rolls NY 39.39A.139-142.161 La Ville -- 01:00:01 to 01:08:51 Car on Brooklyn Bridge going into Manhattan. World Trade Center (WTC) and Woolworth Building on left. Manhattan Municipal Building on right. Car on BB going towards Brooklyn. Financial District straight ahead. Major buildings from left to right Chemical Bank Building (at far left), 120 Wall Street (stepped design). The two tall buildings in BG are First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street (the tallest building in this group). 01:00:41 First, a view of Brooklyn, then the camera spins around showing the Financial District again. Statue of Liberty in distance. 01:01:01 Governors Island and Brooklyn. Yellow building is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). 01:01:15 Brooklyn Bridge coming into lower Manhattan with the Manhattan Municipal Building on the right. 01:01:22 Pace University on left, WTC between Pace University and Woolworth Building. 01:01:30 New York City Hall behind the trees. 01:01:45 FDR Drive heading north towards Brooklyn Bridge and South Street Seaport. 01:01:56 Fulton Fish Market, Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan Bridge in distance. 01:02:25 Manhattan Bridge. 01:02:43 FDR Drive going south and the Manhattan Bridge. 01:03:40 On-ramp to Brooklyn Bridge going into Brooklyn. After turn onto bridge, shots of the Manhattan Municipal Building, Murry Bergtraum High School, and New York Telephone Building on left. 01:03:56 In Lower Manhattan. St. Paul Chapel driving north. 01:04:17 World Trade Center. 01:05:22 Statue of Liberty. 01:05:52 Brooklyn Heights looking towards the Brooklyn Bridge. 01:06:25 Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan, WTC, Chase Manhattan Bank (left). 01:06:53 FDR Drive south with views of the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge. FILM ID 3450 -- New York La Ville Doubles -- 01:00:00 to 01:08:37 Statute of Liberty and views of the lower Manhattan Financial District filmed from Brooklyn Heights. 01:00:32 Red Hook in Brooklyn. Pan of ships, Statue of Liberty, Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and the Financial District. 01:01:43 Brooklyn Heights' Promenade with a jogger running towards camera. Pedestrians strolling. Camera pulls back and shows Brooklyn Bridge looking towards Midtown Manhattan, then pan from north to south. In BG, Empire State Building, residential building, New York Telephone Building, Manhattan Municipal Building, World Trade Center, 120 Wall Street (stepped design), First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street are the tall buildings in "front" of WTC. 01:02:15:09 Midtown Manhattan seen from the observation deck (86th floor) Empire State Building. Pan shot from west to east looking uptown, then camera pans down slightly and moves back from east to west. 01:02:57 Looking uptown from the World Trade Center observation deck (100th floor). Empire State Building straight ahead. Camera pans east to East River. Zoom-in of Domino's Sugar plant just past the bridge; the gas tanks in the BG were on Maspeth Ave. in Brooklyn. 01:03:33 Same as previous shot except starts with a closer shot of the Empire State Building, and zooms-in closer to Domino's. 01:04:10 Repeat of previous shot. 01:04:45 Shot from WTC of Brooklyn Bridge. Yellow building to right is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). Pan up the East River past the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge and zoom-in on the Domino's Sugar plant. 01:05:17 Repeat of previous shot, except camera pulls back and pans to the left back to Manhattan and continues west stopping on the Empire State Building. 01:06:19 Manhattan Bridge from WTC. 01:06:39 Lower East Side or Jewish Orthodox neighborhood in Brooklyn. 01:06:53 Sunrise looking south towards WTC from ESB. Pan to the east side of lower Manhattan. 01:07:30 ESB looking south-east towards the Manhattan Bridge. 01:08:02 Dawn looking south towards WTC. Similar to previous shots. Clap-board on the ESB Observation Deck. FILM ID 4718 -- NY 42-46 Mount Kisco (28:19) Religious Jew wearing a suit and a yarmulke walks down a tree-lined road in Mount Kisco. He walks towards a group of children. Man riding a bicycle. Houses with large lawns. Street sign: “Yeshiva Rd.” (4:06) The road travels up a winding path. Two men in suits move to the side to let the car pass. The car pulls up to a huge, sprawling white building. Men in suits wearing yarmulkes. (7:43) A different side of the yeshiva at Mount Kisco with many windows and several curved archways. Young men in suits and hats stand, grin and walk around. Sound. A few men look out from open windows of the white building. (11:29) Sign in Hebrew. Sound. Inside a classroom with bookcases and desks, and an ornate platform with red drapery and a crest of two lions holding tablets between them. Large plaque in Hebrew. One wall of the room is covered in small plaques. Men stand around talking. Some sitting and reading. One man is singing. Words in Hebrew underneath the tablets. (16:34) An engraving of a menorah with Hebrew around it. Sign. (18:26) The forest surrounding the neighborhood. Two young boys play outside. (21:30) A crossroads sign says “Nitra Rd” one way and “Tora Rd” the other. (22:10) A “private property, no trespassing” sign. FILM ID 4719 -- NY 117-131 Bibliotheque Bund (28:35) Sound. Library interiors, books, black and white photos propped up on one wall. Man in a red sweater reading in the center of the room. Framed photographs set out on the table. (4:37) Books on the shelves in the library, most wrapped in paper, with numbers on the spines or Hebrew writing. (6:42) Signs on the bookshelves in Hebrew. Librarian stands beside the bookshelf. He is told from off camera “don’t look don’t look.” He smiles and looks down at the book in his hand. He starts speaking to someone off camera. He explains the purpose of the archive. (9:02) CUs, photographs on the table, portraits, including “Paul Jordan. The Unfinished Portrait.” The librarian explains the photographs speaking in Yiddish and in English. He begins to pull folders full of documents out of the cabinets below the bookshelves. He shows them a first edition book, and the different editions published in many different languages. The title is “Rok w. Treblinka.” (18:21) A storage room with boxes and folders filled with documents. A woman starts speaking about atrocities in Poland in English. The librarian holds open a folder, looking inside it. He goes into another storage room and looks through folders, pulling out documents. Someone off camera gives instructions in English. The man begins explaining what is inside the folders, specifically talking about telegrams. FILM ID 4720 -- Williamsburg Bte. 206, 223, 222 (16:39) No picture until 1:26. In the Willamsburg neighborhood, two boys moving a tire on a pole on a city sidewalk. Sign in Hebrew on a building. Children in yarmulkes play across the street in a gated yard while adults watch on. A school bus pulls up and two women get out. (3:38) On the side of the bus is “United Talmudical Academy D’Satmar.” Several shops, one of which says “Kosher Bakery.” Young men in yarmulkes and suits stand around and talk. (5:38) Sound. The men speak to Lanzmann in English. (7:30) Two women sit and talk on a bench outside rows of brownstones. (8:21) People walk down city sidewalks in the Williamsburg neighborhood. (12:10) Two men stand and talk in front of a sign in Hebrew. Crossroads sign, “Lee Ave” and “Williamsburgh West St.” (13:51) “Jacobowitz Clothing Chasidic Tailor” Sound. Highway signs above cars driving passed.

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Film

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin are survivors of Vilna. They tell the story of their extraordinary escape from the Ponari camp, digging a tunnel for months, where the dogs that caught them backed away whimpering because the men smelled of death. The interview took place over two days in the forest of Ben Shemen (an Israeli forest resembling Ponari) and in Mr. Zaidel's apartment in Peta'h Tikva with the family of Zaidel. FILM ID 3782 -- Camera Rolls 2-4 -- Foret Ponari CR2 Lanzmann, Zaidel and Dugin meet in a forest in Israel which resembles the forest of Ponari, next to Vilna. Before the war the forest was a beautiful place to go on holiday. After the Holocaust, Zaidel says it no longer seems beautiful, he associates it with the martyrs of the region. There were eight mass graves in the forest. One held 24,000 bodies. Zaidel and Dugin were forced to count the bodies every day, for German records. CR3 Mr. Zaidel was born in a village called Zvilzianik, 24km from Vilna. He was not in the Vilna ghetto from the beginning. Mr. Dugin was in the ghetto from the beginning because he was born and raised in Vilna. Zaidel was born in 1925 and Dugin in 1916. Dugin remembers the poor treatment of the Jews before the ghetto was created. Germans led a pogrom there. When the Germans made the ghetto they created a system of certificates; whoever had a yellow certificate was sent to a second ghetto. Those without certificates were left in the first ghetto and eventually taken to the Ponari forest and executed. During the three days this lasted, Dugin hid with his family in a room as he did not have a certificate. Dugin describes the great fear all who lived in the ghetto experienced since they knew that every month they could be taken to be executed. There were 80,000 Jews in Vilna before the German occupation. After the first ghetto was liquidated, between 15,000 and 17,000 Jews were still alive. These Jews were put to work. CR4 Citizens of the Vilna ghetto knew that Jews were being killed in the Ponari forest. Peasants would hear gunshots, and survivors of executions in the forest would come back to the ghetto in the cover of darkness and talk about what had happened. Zaidel says while he harbored no illusions to what was going on, he always knew he would survive. Dugin had no such certitude at the time. Dugin was made to work in a group responsible for constructing roads and railroad tracks in a camp called Idnalina. When he was sent to work in Palimonacz in October, he realized that he would starve or freeze to death. He escaped and returned to the Vilna ghetto in 1942. He tried to get his parents and sisters to join him in Vilna, for the time thinking it was safe. But before they could make the trip to Vilna the definitive liquidation of the ghetto began. Dugin managed to escape, but lost all contact with his family. A resistance group was forming in the ghetto at the same time. FILM ID 3783 -- Camera Rolls 5-7-- Foret Ponari CR5 Dugin and Zaidel were not members of the resistance. They did not know each other before they were sent to work in the Ponari forest. While the ghetto was being liquidated a group of about fifty Jews from Vilna hid in a cave, called a malina, for about fifty days. Other malinas existed, Dugin also hid in one. The Germans kept two groups of Jews for labor: the Hakape which consisted of mechanics and metal workers, and the Kaïlich which consisted of tailors and other tradesmen. The Jews who could defend themselves left the ghetto early on and joined the Partisans. The Germans could not find the malinas. They only discovered them when people left to find food. These people were captured and tortured for information. The malina Dugin hid in held fifty people, of all ages, with difficulty. CR6 The Lithuanians were complicit in bringing Jews to the Vilna ghetto. Dugin did everything he could to avoid falling into the hands of either the Germans or the Lithuanians. He explains that for someone like him it was easier to escape, hide and survive. The will to survive existed in all victims, but it was more difficult to survive if someone had a family to take care of. Dugin lost contact with his parents when he fled the ghetto. When five people left the malina Dugin was hiding in, the Gestapo found them, tortured them, and then captured everyone hiding in the malina. Back in Gestapo headquarters in Vilna the able men were separated from the women, children and elderly who were taken away in trucks. Dugin says the men knew the women, children, and elderly were killed. Dugin thought he was going to be killed one morning when he was taken to the Ponari forest in the same trucks, but instead he was taken to work there cutting down trees. An initial group of forty workers was tasked with constructing two bunkers in the forest, one for the prisoners and one for the S.S. guards. When construction was completed, forty more workers were brought to help dispose of the ninety thousand dead bodies lying in mass graves in the forest. FILM ID 3784 -- Camera Rolls 7A,7,8 -- Foret Ponari CR7 Brief shots of Dugin without sound. The Obersturmführer told the prisoners working in the Ponari forest that their job was to erase the mess the Lithuanians had made. Lanzmann comments on how pitiful it was how the Germans were blaming others for the massacres they were responsible for. The Obersturmführer claimed that if they worked well, they would be permitted to go to Berlin and practice in their professions. Zaidel knew this to be a bluff, as it would be in the Nazis' interest to kill all who knew what was taking place. He and the other prisoners wondered what they could do to stay alive. In the meanwhile, the Obersturmführer made it clear no one would escape. He had them shackled, and threatened to hang the first attempted escapee from a nearby tree. There were 50-60 S.S. Nazis guarding the prisoners at the forest site, and 84 Jews. Eighty were men and 4 were women who worked in the kitchen. There were no children. Dugin came up with the idea to build a tunnel underneath the bunker. CR8 Zaidel describes the bunkers the prisoners and S.S. guards lived in. They were originally Russian-dug gas reservoirs. Out of seven, two had been lined with stones. The prisoners lived in one, and the Nazis in the other. The remaining pits contained the corpses of the Jews of Vilna who had been liquidated. When they finished building the bunkers, the Obersturmführer told the prisoners they would be disposing of the murdered bodies. Zaidel claims none of them had imagined that they would perform this work. The prisoners were shackled above their calves day and night, making it impossible to walk properly. There was a division of labor: some would open the mass graves, build pyres, transport bodies, remove gold teeth from the victims or pulverize the victims' bones. The ashes were mixed between layers of sand and dirt. 64,000 bodies were burned. FILM ID 3785-- Camera Rolls 9-11 -- Foret Ponari CR9 Each morning the groups of prisoners were given a different task. One group was responsible for building the pyres, an extensive process Dugin describes. The pyres were up to seven meters tall. The last few meters were made up of thousands of bodies, which Zaidel and Dugin would pour flammable fluids on, and then more kindling. The pyres would burn for seven or eight days. Dugin compares opening the graves to opening a tin of sardines: the bodies of the victims were tightly packed. The bodies underneath could have been there for up to eight months, and were often flattened by the pressure imposed on them by more recent bodies deposited on them. Chlorine was poured on each layer of bodies. 09:30 CR10 The bodies on top of the grave were recognizable. Some of the bodies were clothed, and one could tell from their uniform what sort of work they had performed. Dugin explains how they were forbidden from saying aloud the words "dead" and "victim." Instead, they had to refer to the murdered victims as "figurin", as figurines or rags. The prisoners made to carry the bodies were called "Figurenträger." Another workers, called the "Figurenziehen" opened the graves with the use of a large metal bar with a hook on the end. 14:26 CR11 The Germans ordered the workers to never use the words "dead" or "victim." If they did use them, the prisoners were beaten. The Germans did not give an explanation for this order. When they were first made to open the graves, the Germans had the prisoners work without the use of tools. The prisoners sobbed when they first saw the horror before them, and were thus beaten harshly by the guards and worked hard for two days without tools. The dead bodies were referred by Germans as, "Schaizdreck," meaning garbage, in an attempt to distance themselves from the reality of what they were doing: committing mass murder and hiding the evidence. Zaidel says that even after they had been rescued, no one could stand being near the prisoners for the smell of the dead and smoke clung to them. Zaidel tells of the time the Germans brought dogs with them to the forest. Zaidel smelled so strongly of death that one of the dogs ran away from him after it smelled his hand. FILM ID 3786 -- Camera Rolls 12-14 -- Foret Ponari CR12 When Zaidel and Dugin managed to escape the Ponari forest, their horrible stench saved them. They had stopped in exhaustion to rest under a tree when some Germans began to search near where they were. Even though one of the dogs smelled Zaidel, it did not give the two men away as they smelled just like all the dead victims in the area. After some time, the other prisoners became used to the smell of the corpses. They were made to take the boots off of the dead, clean them, and then wear them. Zaidel performed this work for four months, from January to April 1944. He claims that about 20 percent of the prisoners had the ability to overcome their situation, while the other 80 percent did not. At one point they opened up a smaller grave, and Dugin recognized his entire family, including his mother, three sisters and their children. He recognized them by their clothing, and even by their faces, as they were still somewhat preserved in the winter months. Another prisoner, Shalom Gol, recognized his wife and children. 13:08 CR13 Four generations of the Zaidel family sit together with Dugin in Zaidel’s apartment in Israel. Zaidel's wife, children, daughter-in-law, grand-daughter and mother-in-law are present. They introduce themselves. Dugin picks up the interview where it left off; in the forest where Dugin found his family in a mass grave. They had been hiding together in a malina when they were discovered. 21:23 CR14 The Nazis had the prisoners open the oldest graves first. Dugin discovered his family in the most recent grave, near the end of his time working in the Ponari forest. Discovering his family was a very difficult experience, he was not so numbed by what he had thus far experienced to not feel the horror of the discovery. The prisoners began forming their plan of escape one month into their time in the forest, after they realized they would not survive. They salvaged tools from the dead they burned, and also had the tools they used in their own trades. Zaidel worked as an electrician, lighting up the graves at night, and thus had screw drivers and pliers at his disposal. FILM ID 3787 -- Camera Rolls 15-18A -- Famille Ponari CR15 Seventy-nine men and 4 women were prisoners working in the Ponari forest. The youngest was a boy fifteen years old, and another was seventeen. A committee of about four people brainstormed the many escape plans. Zaidel’s daughter, Hanna, whispers into her father’s ear and Claude stops the filming to record what Hanna says. The interview goes on with Zaidel explaining that all of the prisoners were in agreement that they should escape via a tunnel under the bunker. CR16 Hanna Zaidel expresses that she would like them to explain why they chose to escape by digging a tunnel. They all understood that they had nothing to lose. It was very difficult work, digging with limited tools after a hard day of work. The foreman, Abraham Ambourg, was responsible for keeping check of the prisoners' actions and gestures and reporting then to the guards. He knew what the prisoners were up to. He too was a Jewish prisoner. 11:21 CR17 As they dug the tunnel, the prisoners had to reinforce the sandy walls with wooden beams they smuggled in. The biggest challenge was hiding the sand from the tunnel between walls and in the roof without being discovered. The tunnel ended up being 35-40 meters long, but about four meters in there was no air to light a candle. Zaidel built an electrical system to light up the tunnel. Digging the tunnel was a process: four men would enter the tunnel digging with their hands or tools salvaged from victims, until their hands bled. One of the prisoners, named Youri, was an engineer. He managed to steal a compass, which the prisoners used to dig the tunnel in the correct direction. Hanna makes a comment and Claude asks his interpreter for a translation. They did dig in the wrong direction once, and feared they would open out into one of the graves or the guard's bunker. CR18 Zaidel says that the prisoners would dig the tunnel in groups of four to six at a time. After an hour it would become too difficult to breathe, so another group would take over. Once, they were nearly discovered. The guards ordered a roll call while a group of prisoners were digging in the tunnel. However, the prisoners had made a signal using the electrical system Dugin had installed, and thus the prisoners in the tunnel were warned. Everyone was present for the roll call, a fact Zaidel claims he is still stunned by. 27:43 Clap for CR18 Zaidel explains how they believed they dug the wrong way. It took three months to dig the tunnel. Dugin was the first to break into open air. FILM ID 3788 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 -- Famille Ponari CR19 About half of the prisoners did not know about the escape plan until a few days before it happened. The prisoners who did know took care to work while the other prisoners were passed out from exhaustion. They knew they were reaching the end of their tunneling when the soil changed from sand into blacker dirt, interspersed with tree roots. With one last meter to dig there was discussion about the order they should leave. Dugin was assigned to go first as he knew the road outside and had the pliers needed to cut the fence. He wanted to leave last so that he could throw a rock into the mine field, killing all the guards, bunker and destroying the site, but as he knew the geography of the area he was assigned to go in the first group. 11:13 CR20 Only now in the interview does Itzhak Dugin tell Lanzmann that he was a prisoner along with his father and two brothers-in-law. Although his father was 55 at the time, he was very strong and thus selected to work in the Ponari forest. Both father and son had separate opportunities to escape, yet chose not to in order to stay together. The prisoners in charge of building the tunnel decided in what order everyone would exit. Each group was made up of about ten people, with one as the group leader. Those who were on the committee were first group to leave through the tunnel. The second group was comprised of the young men who intended to enlist with the partisans. Those who had worked the most on the tunnel were assigned an earlier exit group. 22:40 CR21 When everyone was informed of the escape plan they all felt joy, though they were always silent. Everyone was in agreement about escaping. Dugin cut his chains off with his pliers, and the chains of twenty men. After this, each person was responsible for cutting the chains of the person behind them. Zaidel and Lanzmann have a disagreement about the presence of a rabbi. From a previous interview with Shalom Gol, Lanzmann heard a story of a rabbi named Goschaus or Goschkaus, who performed a small religious service and elected to stay behind as he felt too old to escape. Zaidel does not remember this incident at all but claims he would if it had happened. FILM ID 3789 -- Camera Rolls Zaidel 22-24 -- Famille Ponari CR22 Once Dugin had opened the end of the tunnel, they cut the electricity. When he stuck his head out of the tunnel Dugin saw a group of German soldiers looking in the direction of their tunnel exit. Dugin claims the exit of the tunnel was so precise it was only half a meter away from where they had planned it to be. With so many people leaving from the tunnel, the prisoners were discovered and fired upon with machine guns. Dugin and his group began to crawl into the forest, but only about one hundred meters in Dugin heard soldiers and had to change his direction. He fell into an unopened grave and told his group to continue without him, but they ran into some guards and another alarm was sounded. The dry branches they walked on gave them away. 11:14 CR23 Only about fifteen Jewish prisoners managed to escape the Ponari forest, and some were wounded by gunfire and mines. Zaidel thinks not everyone made it through the tunnel. Dugin's father and brothers-in-law did not survive, only those in the first two groups managed to run away. Zaidel's daughter, Hanna, tells Lanzmann how her father did not speak about his experiences while she was growing up. She had to wrest the details from him over the years. 20:04 CR24 Hanna claims to love her father just as any other daughter would a father, his experiences haven't changed that. She claims that the attitude people have in Israel towards Holocaust survivors isn't a good one, but doesn't elaborate what that attitude is. She describes how Holocaust survivors are often tired of life, and find it very difficult to live a normal life. FILM ID 3790 -- Coupes Foret Ponari Silent shots of the forest, some scenes with Dugin and Zaidel in the distance then walking towards the camera. A man walks across the field with a briefcase. FILM ID 3791 -- Coupes Foret Ponari -- Camera Rolls unidentified, 5D,3A,7B,8B,10A,8C,7C,8A Silent shots of the field. CUs of Dugin with sunglasses. Dugin and Zaidel seated beside one another, various CUs. 6:47 CUs of Lanzmann in the forest sitting on a tree stump. FILM ID 3792 -- Coupes Famille Ponari – Camera Rolls 22A,23B,24A,24D,24B,22B,23A,24C VAR silent shots of the Zaidel family in the apartment. 

    Franz Suchomel

    Franz Suchomel

    Film

    Lanzmann interviewed Franz Suchomel, who was with the SS at Treblinka, in secret at the Hotel Post in April 1976. This was the first interview Lanzmann filmed with the newly developed hidden camera known as the Paluche, and he paid Suchomel 500 DM. In the outtakes, Suchomel provides further details about the treatment of Jews at the camp, as well as a more ambivalent memory of his experiences than is apparent in the released "SHOAH". FILM ID 3753 -- Camera Rolls 1-2 Lanzmann asks Suchomel to describe his arrival at Treblinka and Suchomel tells of his shock at finding himself with seven other Germans from Berlin in a concentration camp, whereas in Berlin, he had been told he would be going to a resettlement area, supervising tailors and shoemakers. It was the height of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, and during a tour of the camp, he saw the doors of the gas chamber being opened and people falling out "like potatoes." Suchomel and his group were crying "like old women," and Suchomel asked Eberl, the Commandant, to be sent back to Berlin, but Eberl told him he would be sent to the front with the Waffen SS, a sure death. Suchomel hid out and drank vodka to adjust to "the inferno." He says that he learned that the corpses stacked at the railroad tracks were from three daily trains carrying 5,000 people, of whom 3,000 fell out dead on arrival, many by suicide. A new commandant, Christian Wirth, was able to stop the transports so that the corpses could be buried. At this point, there were no "worker Jews," as all the Jews dragging corpses into the trenches were chased into the gas chambers in the evening or shot. FILM ID 3754 -- Camera Rolls 3-4 Wirth reorganized the Germans, and assigned Suchomel to be head of the "Gold Jews." Lanzmann asks if the Poles in the surrounding villages could smell the odor and Suchomel says everyone knew what was going on in the camp. He says that the Poles were not fond of the Jews but they were also scared. Suchomel describes "the tube" in which 100 men or women were sent to the gas chambers at a time. Some even jockeyed for position, not knowing they were going to their deaths. Many had to wait in the barracks up to three days without food and only a bucket of water because of gas chambers' lack of capacity. Suchomel confirms that the method was carbon monoxide from a truck motor, rather than Zyklon B. When Wirth came, he forced Germans and Jewish prisoners to move the piles of corpses to the trenches. Lanzmann questions the use of Germans, but Suchomel insists that they were ordered to do so. Under Wirth, a new gas chamber was built in September. FILM ID 3755 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 In the new gas chamber perhaps 200 could fit in at a time and 3,000 people could be "done" in two hours. Lanzmann says that Auschwitz could handle a lot more than that and Suchomel says Auschwitz was a factory, and that though Treblinka was primitive, it was "a well-functioning assembly line of death." Belzec was the laboratory in which Wirth tried everything out before coming to Treblinka. Suchomel describes the second phase of his time at Treblinka after Wirth came, and says the killing went much faster. Lanzmann mentions 18,000 per day, but Suchomel says that the number is too high. Suchomel explains how transports came from Malkinia, ten kilometers away. 30 to 50 train cars arrived, of which varying numbers went on to Treblinka, the rest remaining behind. At the ramp, two Jews from the Blue Detachment ordered the passengers out, supervised by ten Ukrainians and five Germans. The Red Detachment processed the clothing in the undressing room. It took two hours from arrival to death. People had to wait, naked, to enter the gas chamber, and it was very cold by Christmas. Since the women had to get their hair cut and thus wait longer, Suchomel claims that he told the barbers to go slower so they could remain inside. Suchomel describes the "tube" as camouflaged by branches. If the male prisoners resisted entering, they were whipped by Ukrainian guards. Suchomel says he does not know of women being beaten. He says he is often ashamed. Lanzmann responds that Suchomel is the reporter of these historical events. FILM ID 3756 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 chutes Suchomel says that some people got rich by fleecing the Warsaw Jews, but in later phases the people were so poor that the women didn't even have wedding rings, having given them up to Poles at Malkinia in exchange for water. Suchomel claims that if he ever reported violence among the prisoners his SS superior told him not to interfere if Jews were beating Jews. Lanzmann asks about the hospital. It was the Blue Detachment's responsibility to accompany those selected by the SS. Once there, people undressed and sat down on a dirt embankment where they were shot in the neck. They were mostly old and sick people who would have disrupted the smooth processing of the assembly line. Suchomel says he couldn't get out of the vicious cycle because he knew of two regime secrets: euthanasia in Berlin and Treblinka. Referring again to the hospital, he explains that people were fooled by the Red Cross flag flying over it. He says that those who arrived in cattle cars with one bucket among them had to be cleaned up by the Blue Detachment upon arrival. The Escort Detachment consisted of Ukrainians and Latvians; the former could be bribed, but the latter not, as they were committed Jew haters. Many passengers committed suicide or died of illness during the transport, most of the rest had gone crazy. Being part of all this, Suchomel tells Lanzmann caused him to have a nervous breakdown and to turn to alcohol. Lanzmann wants more details about the hospital and Suchomel explains that [SS man Willi] Mentz was the neck-shot specialist and people fell into a pit where there was always a fire going. FILM ID 3757 -- Camera Rolls 11-12 Lanzmann asks which was the better way to die and Suchomel says the neck shot was, because it was quicker; in the gas chamber, with one motor servicing three or four gas chambers, death could take twenty minutes. Suchomel describes his position as the German in charge of the "Gold Jews." He claims that he was harshly punished by Wirth for once allowing a young girl to keep a piece of jewelry. Lanzmann asks about the vaginal exams alleged at Suchomel's trial, but Suchomel says that never happened, as the whole process was designed to move masses of people through the system at top speed. He says that once women knew they were going to their deaths, they cut the veins of their children with razor blades, so the children would die more quickly in the gas chambers. After they gave up their valuables to Suchomel's department the women sat on benches and had their hair cut. In response to a question from Lanzmann Suchomel says he thinks he recognizes the name of Abraham Bomba. FILM ID 3758 -- Camera Rolls 13-16 After an interruption Lanzmann again asks Suchomel about Bomba. Suchomel says that the Jews were robbed of their human dignity, the SS even took the hair on their heads, and they were treated worse than cattle. Lanzmann asks if Suchomel saw the prisoners as human beings and Suchomel says that he always did, that he was often nauseous and couldn't cope, especially if German Jews came through. He tells of one woman from Berlin who cursed at him and offered herself to him sexually, hoping that insulting the honor of an SS man would force him to shoot her, sparing her the gas chamber. He claims that he talked with her and they drank a bottle of wine together before she was gassed. Suchomel explains again that the excrement in the "tube" was a result of the terror of the women who had to wait while hearing the truck motor and the screaming in the chambers. For the men, there was no waiting, as they were chased through the "tube." Under Commandant Wirth, the unloading, sorting of clothes, herding of prisoners into the chambers had to done quickly, but the removal and burial of corpses took longer. FILM ID 3759 -- Camera Rolls 17-19 After Katyn became known, in order to destroy the evidence the corpses were dug up and burned in pits with grills made from railroad iron. When no transports arrived in the winter of 1943 and there were still 500-600 "worker Jews," they were given so little to eat that typhus broke out and killed many of them; the rest no longer believed that they would be spared by the SS and told Suchomel that they were just "corpses on vacation." Suchomel prided himself on chatting with his Polish and Czech worker Jews, including women prisoners, in his workshop and letting them have concerts and meetings there. Suchomel says that the Eastern transports came in livestock cars, whereas the Germans and Czech Jews from Theresienstadt arrived in passenger cars, believing they were being resettled. The Eastern Jews were beaten, but the Western Jews were not. Suchomel claims that he spoke with Rudi Masaryk about logistics for escape. Suchomel tells of encountering an old school friend from the Sudentenland and says he offered to save him and his wife. However, the wife had already been killed and the husband chose to die as well. FILM ID 3760 -- Camera Rolls 20-22 -- 01:00:16 to 01:31:34 [This is the only reel of picture preserved as of 2015.] CR20 Lanzmann secretly films Franz Suchomel in what appears to be living room. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about his time working in Treblinka. The tube, the pathway the Jewish prisoners were forced to walk through on their way to the gas chambers, was referred to as "The Way to Heaven," "Ascension Way," and "The Last Road," by the prisoners. Suchomel only ever heard the latter two names while working in Treblinka. [No image 01:01:02 to 01:01:10] The transports of Jews from the East arrived in cattle cars, while the transports from the west arrived passenger train cars. At this point in the interview Suchomel requests asks to pause as he is experiencing heart pain. He has angina pectoris. Lanzmann asks him if the pain in brought on by emotion, which Suchomel confirms. After a short pause, the interview picks back up. Suchomel claims the Jews brought from the west were not beaten on their way to the gas chambers. Nevertheless, Jews from the west and east all ended up in the gas chambers. Stangl, Franz and Küttner ordered a façade of a train station to be constructed, complete with flowers throughout the camp, counters, train schedules and a clock. The camp was given the fictitious station name "Ober Maiden," to keep the prisoners calm. 01:10:14 CR21 Lanzmann asks if the SS guards were more afraid of a revolt from the Jews from the west or the east. Suchomel begins telling the story of the Treblinka revolt. He claims he saved the life of a Jewish prisoner twice, Rudi Masaryk, and told him where weapons were located in case Masaryk wanted to escape. Lanzmann tells Suchomel he is not asking about the revolt [recording stops from 01:12:33 to 01:12:38]. The interview continues with Suchomel telling Lanzmann about a Czech transport carrying a former schoolmate, his brother and father. Suchomel says he tried to save his friends life but after he found out his three month pregnant wife had already been gassed, he did not want to live. His brother asked Suchomel to save him, but since his face was beaten green and blue, Suchomel would not save him. When asked why he would not save a man who had been beaten, Suchomel says that is was a standard procedure and cannot further elaborate. Suchomel states that only the worker Jews who were no longer wanted were beaten. [Audio continues after filming stops] 01:20:45 CR22 Franz Küttner would beat prisoners when he felt like it. If the prisoner was not given express permission, this was a death sentence as the prisoners face was marked. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he is alright, as he appears to be in pain. Recounting his experience pains him emotionally and physically, and the interview continues after a moment. The SS guards were worried about the transport of Jews from the Bialystok ghetto. Upson arrival, the men threw bottles and small hand grenades at the guards. When they were unloaded from the train they beat up and wounded with a knife or razor blade Kapo Meier. Kapo Meier was allowed to recover and live instead of being sent to the fake camp hospital, the Lazaret. Suchomel claims he tried to make life as pleasant as possible for the Jews working in his workshops. Jews in the camp began to destroy currency that prisoners brought with them. Jews arriving from Warsaw, Tschenstau and Bialystok in the beginning carried lots of money, which Suchomel’s workshop was in charge of sorting and even gluing together when prisoners ripped it up. His Gold Jews sorted currencies, jewelry and glasses, which were all used for the war. Gold teeth were brought from Camp II, after they had been pried from the mouths of the dead. [Audio continues after filming stops] FILM ID 3761 -- Camera Rolls 23-25 Suchomel says that he once intervened on behalf of one of his Jewish workers, who was caught with money, then savagely beaten by an SS officer. Though rescued, the worker did not want to be saved and was shot. Upon questioning by Lanzmann about taking money himself, Suchomel insists that he didn't, that he knew the punishment and was too cowardly to risk that. They talk again about the black market economy around the camp. Polish farmers sent their children to the fence to sell him and his workers food. Suchomel explains that ten prostitutes were brought in for the Ukrainian guards, not for the Germans. It was too dangerous for the Germans to go into the surrounding villages, so instead, they got frequent vacations. Lanzmann asks if the prostitutes knew that this was an extermination camp and Suchomel says that everyone, including the villagers and the Polish underground army knew. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about the assertion that "the Jews went to their deaths like sheep to the slaughterhouse." FILM ID 3762 -- Camera Rolls 26-28 Suchomel replies that people don't know how demoralized the Jews were by the time they reached Treblinka. He speculates on the causes of hatred toward Jews: years of blaming them for misfortunes, greed and envy. He knows from his own experiences that most Polish and Czech Jews were poor. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he feels guilt about his role in Treblinka and Suchomel replies that he is ashamed to have been there and that he feels guilty, yet he quickly adds that his court records show that individual Jews testified in his favor. He says he couldn't stand up to the authorities because of the need to protect his family. Since he was a carrier of two state secrets he couldn't be assigned elsewhere. By chance, he also learned of a third secret, Operation Brand, wherein the Germans euthanized those victims of bombing raids in Germany who were severely injured or became mentally ill. Suchomel says he did not think about suicide, just survival for himself and his family, and that he will have to live with this burden for the rest of his life. He claims that even then he saw Hitler as the biggest mass murderer in history, but couldn't say that to anyone. FILM ID 3763 -- Camera Rolls 29-30 Suchomel claims he was called "Yom Kippur" by the Jews because he never beat any of them, except two Berlin Jews. He was also called the "Gold Boss." Lanzmann urges Suchomel to sing the Treblinka song, which the prisoners had to sing every morning and evening. Suchomel sings it twice at Lanzmann's bidding, but is concerned that if neo-Nazis heard it, they would call him "a pig." FILM ID 3764 -- Camera Rolls 31-32 Lanzmann asks what Suchomel remembers most vividly, the euthanasia period or Treblinka. Suchomel says that Treblinka will always be with him, a vicious cycle from which he couldn't free himself. Responding to Lanzmann's questions again about a revolt, Suchomel says that after the Warsaw ghetto uprising was put down, his worker Jews lost all hope of surviving because even the Jews who had worked for the Germans in the ghetto were shot. Some of the surviving ghetto Jews who were brought to Treblinka, however, infected the camp Jews and that's how the will for a revolt began. Discussing Christian Wirth, Suchomel calls him the most brutal man he knows. He was a skilled organizer and was head inspector for Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Lublin. He was a Jew-hater and everyone was afraid of him. Lanzmann pays Suchomel for the interview and asks Suchomel how he feels about being paid by a Jew. Suchomel says that the money is compensation, not a reward for the interview. "Why compensation?" Lanzmann asks and Suchomel says he will suffer for having brought all the old memories to light. Lanzmann wants another interview and gives his word of honor that he will not "betray anything." Suchomel gives his word of honor that they will meet again, but not soon. --- The following reels contain only audio. --- FILM ID 3485 -- Audio Reel #1-1-2 FILM ID 3486 -- Audio Reel #3-4 FILM ID 3487 -- Audio Reel #5-6-7-8 FILM ID 3488 -- Audio Reel #9-10-11 FILM ID 3489 -- Audio Reel #12-13 FILM ID 3490-- Audio Reel #13-14-14-15-16 FILM ID 3491-- Audio Reel #17-18-18 FILM ID 3492-- Audio Reel #19-20 FILM ID 3493-- Audio Reel #21-22 FILM ID 3494-- Audio Reel #23-24-25 FILM ID 3495 -- Audio Reel #26-27 FILM ID 3496-- Audio Reel #28-29-30 FILM ID 3497-- Audio Reel #31-32

    Raul Hilberg

    Raul Hilberg

    Film

    Raul Hilberg is the author of the seminal book, "The Destruction of the European Jews." In this interview with Claude Lanzmann for SHOAH, Hilberg discusses several aspects of his research, including the culpability of the German railways in the deportation process of European Jews, as well as the significant roles Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner played in the genocide of the European Jews. Hilberg also addresses the general bureaucratic processes at work in the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. Hilberg is filmed in his home in Burlington, Vermont and on campus at the University of Vermont, probably in late November 1978. FILM ID 3768 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 CR1 Hilberg discusses the various means by which the genocide of the European Jews was enacted. Hilberg's research focuses on the railroad system (Reichsbahn), as transportation was a critical element in the successful implementation of the Final Solution. Hilberg explains that a clearer understanding of the railroads, which were generally ignored until he began his research, further reveals the extent to which Nazi Germany acted as a totalitarian society. Hilberg states that the Reichsbahn operated with the same "effe