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Shmuel Tamir

Film | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.166 | RG Number: RG-60.5040 | Film ID: 3396, 3397, 3398, 3399

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    Shmuel Tamir
    Transcript
    film slating)
    Mr. Minister, I would like to explain to you something.
    One of the main characters of this film,
    one of the main protagonist, in spite of the fact that I never
    met him.
    And that he's dad is Rabbi Weissmandel.
    And I could explain to you why, but I know that you met him,
    I would like to know in which circumstances, in which purpose
    and what was your impression of the man?
    We came across, during the trial of the document,
    most appalling, heart tearing.
    The outcry from the depth of death to the free world,
    ending with the accusation, you are madmen, you are murderers.
    You view it, you are silent, you do nothing
    when we are being led to death by hundreds of thousands,
    by millions.
    And I didn't know who wrote it, because when it was first
    presented by me to the court, I knew it as a letter written
    by an anonymous.
    Anonymous.
    I believe I received the document from Joel Brand,
    from his archive.
    Later during one of the testimonies
    we found out that the writer was Rabbi Micheal Dov Weissmandel.
    And one couldn't but be deeply impressed by the personality,
    by the sincerity, by the most unique power of expression,
    by the political wisdom and leadership.
    And I started to inquire, where is the man?
    I was told that he was one of the escapees from the death
    trains, he has jumped from a death train,
    while his family did not manage to escape.
    His wife and a good number of children.
    I was further told that for a long while
    he stayed in Switzerland, and later he moved to Mount Kisco,
    in New York.
    New York State.
    Where led a yeshiva with a good number of rabbinical students.
    He was described to me as a man who was crying for years, day
    and night.
    Never being in a position to recover himself
    from the general tragedy and personal tragedy.
    And I've decided to try and meet him and get information
    from him.
    And I did it in January 1956.
    If you are interested in the facts I can continue.
    I am interested.
    This means that you went to America?
    I went to America--
    To Mount Kisco?
    To Mount Kisco.
    And I asked, and I needed a lot of intervention and influence
    of people to meet him.
    And he met people only at night, and I was brought to him
    in a very chilly night, in the midst of January, a snow night,
    2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.
    So late?
    Yes.
    And when I came into the room he knew the purpose,
    he knew of the trial, the Kasztner trial.
    He knew my role, he knew I was searching for the facts,
    but he was very much against the whole Zionist process.
    And in principle he wouldn't cooperate
    with anything Zionist.
    And it was very astonishing at the beginning
    to enter the room, see the man, a very impressive man
    deep in sadness and thoughts.
    And I came and I introduced myself and he says, welcome.
    I wasn't offered a seat because I came from over there,
    from the wrong place--
    From Zion.
    --From the wrong people.
    Not from the wrong place, but from the wrong people, not
    people, but regime.
    I wasn't offered a cup of tea, and I was sick then,
    and my throat was in poor condition.
    And he started to ask me very simple questions.
    What do I want?
    And I said I want material, documents,
    facts for the continuation of the truth revealing trial.
    And he said, I will not help a Zionist court.
    I shall not cooperate with the Zionist court,
    with anything Zionist.
    I told him this is the only court which found the truth.
    He stuck to his attitude.
    The trial was already finished?
    It was, No, a good part of it was over, the 56--
    actually the judgment was already there,
    but other trials, civil cases developed, and their appeal
    was still pending.
    Yes.
    And Kasztner was alive?
    And Kasztner in '56 January, Kasztner was alive.
    Eventually after a few questions and answers
    I was offered a seat, and the conversation
    started to develop.
    And I regained my voice and I started to be aggressive.
    I said, if you are really interested in the facts,
    we are all blood and flesh and you are not too young,
    this is the last opportunity to expose and reveal
    the facts through any tribunal, and you
    have to do this service to the truth and to the Jewish people.
    Apparently he was studying me, trying
    to find out what are my real motives before he'll talk.
    And he started to open up, and after half an hour he said,
    would you have some tea?
    And still later I was offered even fish.
    But the serious thing was that I talked more than him
    in the beginning, until he said, you know something,
    I'll ask you a question.
    And he started to talk and the question was very long,
    and he started to tell me facts.
    And after 30 minutes of facts revealing a story,
    he said, and now the question therefore
    is, which was apparently a way to justify his cooperation
    with the Zionist court, by not just telling me facts,
    but ending up with a question.
    I say he's cooperating because in the beginning
    he said I said, I came to ask you
    to come to Jerusalem to testify, and this he refused totally.
    But then you started to give me facts, and giving me facts
    was also cooperation for him.
    In the middle of his question I said,
    may I take notes from your question?
    He said, later.
    And then he allowed me to take a pencil and paper
    and I start writing.
    And we sat for, I think close to the morning hours,
    and I took notes.
    And after two hours I think he said, I'll show you something.
    And he started to bring about, not this single letter outcry--
    We lost reel reel.
    (film slating)
    I will tell you when you go, but don't look at the camera,
    look at the book.
    OK.
    So not only the single outcry, extremely strong one,
    but additional ones.
    More and more of them.
    Letters, dispatches, messages which
    he sent from the underground to the free world.
    And--
    Does he send them in Istanbul, in Switzerland?
    It was meant to arrived in England and the United States.
    And together they combined facts and atmosphere.
    and these where a original, original documents
    from the time of the actual slaughter,
    and as far as testimony is concerned,
    it was extremely important for me.
    Eventually, years later, it was published
    in a book, Min HaMeitzer.
    A book which he didn't manage to edit properly,
    and he was worried that he won't have time to do so.
    Anyway, he showed me the letters,
    and I asked him to give them to me so that I can produce them
    as documents in court.
    He refused, he said you won't get it from me,
    I want to cooperate with a Zionist court.
    Maybe you'll get it some day, someway,
    I shall not give it to you.
    And this was bringing us to the morning hours,
    I gather the information that they did,
    he has developed his philosophy, how it all came about,
    who were the responsible factors,
    and he has agreed to see me again in his office
    somewhere else, not in the Yeshiva and the apartment.
    And we met a few days later.
    In Williamsburg?
    I guess so.
    And then it wasn't altogether another talk.
    He controlled the English language in a beautiful way,
    he knew a lot on issues and matters,
    and fields which had nothing to do with rabbinical life,
    on modern life, on modern science or modern culture.
    He knew a lot about Israel, he challenged the Zionist thinking
    and philosophy as compared to the religious--
    to the totally faithful religious one,
    as he understood it.
    And I still remember how he said,
    the secular culture is bringing the world
    to emptiness and to an eventual annihilation.
    The more I heard the men the more
    I developed an admiration for him,
    although we were from very different worlds.
    And my respect for him, which was attached originally
    to that single document, became much wider and deeper.
    We had additional few contacts, not only during
    that visit to America.
    An interesting episode which had to do with this visit
    was that three hours before I left the United States,
    after a combination of coincidence
    I was handed over copies of all the documents, which
    I have seen in his home, by another Rabbi.
    Which on the face of it could have nothing
    to do with Rabbi Weissmandel.
    Still I believe till this the very day,
    that he found a way to give me the documents
    and to allow himself, in one way or another of justification,
    to give it to me in trust, because he apparently decided
    that my motives were pure.
    And I had the documents, I still have them.
    Eventually I saw them in this book.
    I couldn't forget the outcry which
    was sent to the free world in the very beginning
    of the dispatch of Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz.
    It was written on May 15, 1944.
    The cover was in a cave near Lublin, it wasn't there,
    it was from somewhere in the heart of Slovakia.
    Slovakia.
    Yes.
    And I won't read it to you in all,
    but he describes very meticulously,
    almost in a scientific way, how every day
    12,000 Jews are being put into the trains, led to Auschwitz,
    cheated brought in to the gas chambers, put to death
    and eventually burned.
    And then he continues with his demands and his accusations.
    And you our brothers in Palestine,
    in all the countries of freedom.
    And you ministers of all kingdom,
    how do you keep silent in the face of this great murder?
    Silent while thousands and thousands,
    reaching now to six million Jews were murdered,
    and silent now while tens of thousands
    are being murdered and waiting to be murdered.
    Their destroyed hearts cry to you for help
    as they bewail your cruelty, brutal you are,
    and murderers too you are, because of the cold bloodedness
    of silence in which you watch.
    Because you sit with folded arms and you do nothing,
    though you could stop or delay the murder of Jews
    at this very hour.
    In the name of the blood of thousands of thousands
    who have been murdered we beg, we
    plead, we cry out and demand that you take action,
    that you do deeds now at once.
    That the minister of kingdoms and all the lands
    raise loud and piercing outcry, and that
    must enter the ears of the world,
    the ears of the German people, the ears
    of the Hungarian people, let them cry out a warning
    to the German murderers.
    Let them proclaim that they know all
    that has been done in the past, and that
    which is still being done.
    And then he goes on and he describes Auschwitz,
    and he demands the bombing of Auschwitz,
    and the bombing of the trains leading to Auschwitz,
    on the way.
    And he winds up.
    Drop all other business to get this done.
    Remember that one day of your idleness kills 12,000 souls.
    You, our brothers, sons of Israel are you insane?
    Don't you know the hell around us?
    For whom are you saving your money?
    How is it that all our pleadings affect
    you less than the whimperings of a beggar standing
    in your doorway?
    Murderers, madman.
    Who is that gives charity?
    You who toss a few pennies from your safe homes
    or we who give our blood in the depth of hell?
    There is only one thing that may be said in your exoneration,
    that you do not know the truth, this is possible,
    the villain does his job so shrewdly that only a few
    guess the truth.
    We have told you the truth several times,
    is it possible that you believe our murderers
    more than you believe us?
    May God open your eyes and give your heart
    to rescue in these last hours of remainder.
    Most important, he repeats, is that
    which I write about the bombing of Auschwitz crematoria,
    and the bridges leading to them.
    Such bombing can vitally delay the evil work
    of our slaughterers, and God who keeps
    alive to last remnants of Israel will show
    his mercy, for which I pray.
    I pray as I write out of the sea of tears
    of the people of Israel, we wait for God's help.
    One from the market who witnesses
    the woes of his people.
    I had a telephone call with Rabbi Weissmandel,
    on another visit.
    And he gave me directly a few tips
    as to how to go about the trial, and one day I
    heard that he passed away.
    And I recall the picture--
    (film slating)
    And one day I heard that he passed away, heart failure.
    And I recalled that midst of the January night,
    the snow, that dozens, perhaps hundreds
    of students pale, Meagre, praying and studying
    in the middle of the night.
    And he's seated among his admirers,
    thinking, mourning with a lot of strength, spiritual strength,
    still prevailing.
    But with all this sadness and despair in his expression.
    Did he talk with you or did you talk with him about Kasztner,
    specifically?
    Yes.
    And he had his opinion.
    And I would like to know what did
    you think, not only of Kasztner but of the achievements
    of Kasztner, if he said it.
    He was critical of Kasztner.
    Although Rabbi Weissmandel and a few people
    were led to the Swiss border in an operation
    in which Kasztner was involved--
    I know, that's the moment the Russians entered Slovakia.
    That's right.
    And he was led to the Swiss border
    with Hermann Krumey, the number two man after Eichmann.
    Yes.
    I knew why the cooperation was organized
    by Krumey and Kasztner, It was an attempt
    to save Krumey, and make him cross the border.
    And Rabbi Weissmandel, and the few Jews with him
    were the pretext.
    They were 23 I think.
    I think so.
    And I've interrogated Kasztner a lot about this operation.
    And if you allow me I'll come to it a bit later.
    But still coming back to Rabbi Weissmandel,
    he was critical of Kasztner.
    But he viewed the Kasztner operation very much differently
    from mine.
    Yes, this is the reason why I ask you.
    I thought that what happened to Kasztner
    was basically psychological, I thought
    that the man who started as a young, active, dynamic,
    Zionist, socialist with good intentions
    under the German Nazi pressure, gradually
    developed a fantastic egomaniac attitude.
    And gradually was overtaken by the so-called power
    vested in him, until he forgot where he belonged.
    And I suggested to the court that his soul
    was burned in Auschwitz, until he became a fully fledged
    collaborator with the Nazis.
    He was a victim, the most dangerous victim.
    I see it's a beautiful formula, the dangerous victim.
    But rabbi Weissmandel told me, you
    are involved in too much psychology, look for the money.
    And he repeated it, be much more down to earth,
    look for the money.
    And I didn't agree with him because even in the district
    court, although one of the acquisition against Kasztner
    had to do with money, Becher himself, money involved,
    the court didn't find enough proof or any proof
    to justify this allegation and dismissed it.
    While the court said that he did collaborate,
    the explanation of the courts were
    similar to those which I've presented during the trial.
    And Rabbi Weissmandel, even in the last telephone call said,
    look for the money.
    There was a long, a very involved story of money,
    which had to do with Karl Becher,
    And I have no doubt that Becher looted the Jews
    and started his richness and he is
    the most wealthy multimillionaire
    today in West Germany--
    I know.
    --from Jewish property.
    But I have no facts to state the Kasztner personally made
    any money out of it.
    I have no facts at all, and I wouldn't say.
    But I don't think so, personally.
    But this was the attitude of Weissmandel,
    he uttered it in a general way, and he repeated it.
    You're too involve in psychological explanation--
    No, I have asked you this question about,
    what did Weissmandel think actually of Kasztner?
    Because I would like to know if he talked really about you
    or what did he say about Kasztner, and what you
    yourself personally think today?
    Not about Kasztner, we will come to this later on,
    but Weissmandel was the first one
    who initiated in Slovakia, the negotiations with the Germans
    to rescue Jews for money, or against money.
    This was a Kasztner line.
    And Weissmandel, even advised Kasztner,
    around the people of the so-called Vaada in Budapest,
    to negotiate with Wisliceny.
    Wisliceny brought to them a letter
    from Weissmandel on the so-called working
    group of Slovakia.
    Weissmandel, Gisi Fleischmann one of them.
    all these people.
    And I don't think that--
    he was not against the negotiation--
    No.
    Selling Jews for one money, he was not.
    Did he talk with you about it?
    Yes, yes.
    He was not against, but it was clear in our conversation
    between us, and I thought so then, I still maintain it.
    That it's a complete absurdity to look from now backwards,
    or from a safe haven to the depth of hell
    and give judgment.
    He was right here, and he was wrong there,
    and what was the exact attitude which had to be adopted.
    I never maintained that we can sit so calmly and judge,
    I felt, and apparently on this we
    have agreed, that between the fighters against the German
    Nazis in the forests, and the underground warriors in one
    extreme, and between the fully fledged collaborators who
    served the Germans, for money for example,
    or because they were totally identified
    with them ideological.
    There was a very wide spectrum of people,
    extremely wide spectrum of people,
    who took different attitudes in the tragedy.
    Yes it is true.
    And I felt, and we may discuss it
    when we come to Kasztner, that Kasztner, definitely at a given
    time crossed the demarcation line
    so extremely, in such a far reaching
    way, that even backwards, thinking backwards
    and looking backwards and even from safety today, you can say,
    Yes, he was a Nazi collaborator.
    I would be very hesitant and I'll
    think over hundreds of times before saying it
    on Judenrat A or Judenrat B, and people
    who were under agony and who have
    tried their best to save lives.
    I wouldn't have said it about Kasztner
    in the first steps of his activity, when he started
    to negotiate, when he met, them when he tried to please them,
    when he wanted to gain time.
    Who are we to come and judge, you should
    have done exactly this or that?
    He crossed the line, he in the beginning of the year 1945
    when German generals were hanging by Hitler,
    he became part, an integral part of the last remnants
    of the loyal SS.
    When do you date if it is possible to do that--
    This is January, February, March and April 1945.
    In Vienna, in Berlin he went wherever
    the high command of the SS was.
    It is true.
    And he became an integral part of it, he wasn't a Judenrat.
    Tamir.
    Cut four.
    OK.
    It was not the Judenrat and it was not typical.
    And to the best of my knowledge, this
    is a very single case to such an extent, and so deep.
    Every nation, every people has its wonderful elements
    and it has its weak ones which become a victim and eventually
    dangerous victim as I said, this is the exception.
    This is not the general thing.
    And what actually gave the final proof
    of this horrifying collaboration was the fact
    that after the war, in Nuremberg in 1947,
    he testified for Becher.
    He saved him from punishment by giving false affidavit.
    Totally false.
    He has tried which is known less to save Krumey
    And he succeeded at the beginning
    and he has written Krumey an unbelievable letter that he'll
    never forget his help.
    The man who was number two to Eichmann He
    has tried to persuade the American to bring Wisliceny
    from the hands of the Poles and the Slovaks where
    he was bound to face what was due to him, death.
    To an American part of Germany where his life could be
    rescued, and this is documented too and he has given
    a testimony relating to Jüttner to SS general Jüttner as well.
    So in a wholesale way, he tries to save arch Nazi killers
    because towards the end of the war,
    he crossed the line totally.
    And this is a very unique case, I
    don't know if any other could--
    Would you say that he was--
    you talked some minutes ago about
    his ideological collaborators who identify themselves as--
    No.
    He was not an ideological collaborator.
    I think he was caught by his own activity into the feeling
    that he's a part of the strong, of the winning
    side of the successful, of those who control the lives
    of hundreds of thousands.
    And he became part of them.
    He gradually identified himself with them, not ideologically.
    This is the winning side for the Germans at the end of the war.
    He knew--
    At the beginning.
    At the beginning.
    At the beginning when they came and took over
    Hungary and they had full control
    of the lives of the Jews.
    I mean, in the war between Germany and the Jews,
    they, unfortunately, were the winning side.
    Oh Yes.
    This is different.
    He came to represent the Jews.
    And I say again, the man started as an idealist,
    a Zionist socialist idealist.
    Power, power totally blinded him.
    I'll never forget how, once he was asked by journalists
    during the trial, in an interval,
    can you give us a description of Kurt Becher How was he?
    How did he look?
    Was he handsome?
    Was he good looking?
    Was he strong?
    And he said he was handsome as God.
    About Kurt Becher.
    The very expression, the identity was twisted.
    It's a tragedy.
    It's a unique case, I say.
    It's very non-typical.
    It has nothing to do with the Judenrats.
    But he was very clear.
    He was very lucid, in some way.
    I found in his report, at least two passages
    where he said, if you permit me I will read them to you.
    When he is negotiating with Eichmann about this transport
    from Koloszvár, from Cluj.
    This transport is 388 people, which is not much.
    And Eichmann is always delaying and delaying.
    And he writes, Kasztner, And now Eichmann
    simply stated that he did not want to keep his word,
    not even to these few.
    If I take this as such, this is Kasztner writes,
    We become accomplices to the deportation
    of people who after so much suffering
    have been chosen to be rescued.
    With this, the lowest point has been reached,
    we cannot go on in this way.
    He knew the line.
    This was quoted by Judge Halevy, the president of the district
    court.
    This was put by himself in a very sophisticated way
    and showed that he had it in mind.
    And he escaped from these situations.
    This one is even less sophisticated.
    If now Eichmann cannot be forced to come to reason,
    then the Vaada entering this game of roulette on human
    lives, I'm putting its money on the German side, was as naive,
    a loser as many of those of us in occupied Europe.
    Then the media and Spade we complete
    craziness, the loser in this game is also called traitor.
    The word roulette is very typical to the attitude
    of this man.
    Yes.
    Roulette with the lives of hundreds of thousands.
    He simply lost, in the tragedy, the last senses of values.
    But even though he did not live in a death camp
    or in Treblinka, or Majdanek, and he lived in Budapest,
    in relatively comfortable conditions but his mind
    was totally twisted by this horrifying pressure.
    This happened to leaders of other nations
    who crossed the line and collaborated.
    And the tragedy here, was that, if you
    take a quisling or Laval, they betrayed sovereignty freedom,
    independence.
    Their justification, which was no justification,
    but their justification, coming from them, was someday,
    this situation will change and we have saved the people
    and we've saved the country, physically.
    And freedom will dawn upon us one day.
    This they could whisper to themselves, perhaps.
    There's no justification.
    Kasztner collaborated with a death machine.
    Behind this collaboration, there was no future.
    There was only one thing, the few
    who will be escaped, that he will choose.
    And of course, we have debated this horrible dilemma time
    and again, and we've posed the question,
    we've posed the question to the court.
    If you are the captain of a boat,
    in charge of 1,000 passengers, and all of a sudden
    you know that something bad is going to happen to the boat.
    Are you allowed to pick 10 members of the passengers,
    quietly, calmly, hiding the facts from the 990,
    put them on a small tiny boat and say, save your lives?
    Or is it your duty to announce, the boat is about to wreck?
    Everybody should try to save his life.
    I can't take care of all of us.
    My line was, the minute you can't
    take care of the life of everybody
    and save them, your only duty is share with them the facts,
    and everybody will be responsible for his own life.
    When you hide the facts to save the 10,
    you are pushing the 990 to the fateful death,
    and knowingly, this is the collaboration.
    And we've proven that he did hide the facts from the people
    at the price of rescuing the few.
    This was the collaboration.
    You know what the people who support
    Kasztner, today and there are still people who support--
    Yes, who vouch for him.
    Yes it's his country.
    And you know what they answer to this?
    They answer several things.
    They say once that, I don't agree with them personally,
    they said that Kasztner tried to warn them.
    This is a new finding, that he sent the Halutzim,
    in some ghetto, in order to warn the people of the ghetto.
    Yes, you know what the supporters of Kasztner,
    and there are still many, answer to your argumentation.
    They say two things.
    They say that, first of all, Kasztner
    tried to warn the people of the ghetto.
    That the Vaada sent young Halutzim in several ghetto
    and that they told the truth but that the people didn't
    want to believe it.
    And the second things they say, is that to warn,
    would have been absolutely useless, for this very reason
    that the majority of the people didn't want to believe,
    and wouldn't have want to believe.
    In any case, to which they answer, personally,
    that it is not true, because I think
    that the natural chiefs of the community, would have
    speak themselves.
    I'll say the truth maybe those things would
    have been different, but what is your own answer?
    The two arguments are contradicting each other.
    Because had Kasztner really believed, or taken
    the line of warning to the masses then the other story,
    that it wouldn't work, wouldn't have come.
    The other argument of his supporters,
    shows that they didn't believe in this line.
    I don't want to argue the fact that maybe at the beginning
    a few warnings were made, although all the elements
    of proof were contrary to that.
    But what does it mean to warn?
    The natural instinct of a man is to disbelieve
    that death is coming upon him.
    Ask every sick man in cancer, most people
    will hope, that somehow it won't happen.
    That it isn't cancer, that it isn't that bad.
    The natural human desire for life
    pushes aside any information that he's doomed.
    Therefore, the duty to warn must be a very heavy one,
    and the warning must come from very competent authority,
    in order to neutralize this natural instinct
    of this belief.
    Very high.
    And therefore, it had to come from very authoritative sources
    who are trusted, their leaders, accepted leaders.
    Then the two lines couldn't go together.
    The Germans gave Kasztner, or promised
    to give the 380, which later developed
    into a somewhat larger number of 600 and still later, 1,200.
    And it was exploited along a very long time.
    Every time for another purpose.
    But the main purpose at the beginning
    was one; to blind the masses by taking the leaders
    and putting them into a special category
    so that their interests will conflict
    the interests of the masses.
    The interest of the masses was to know, to escape, to revolt,
    to hide, to save themselves.
    The interests of the few who were chosen
    to be put on a train and led to eventual safety,
    was to keep calm, not to notify, let the program develop
    while they are put in safety.
    And this was the satanic gimmick of Eichmann with which
    Kasztner collaborated.
    The conflict of interest developed immediately,
    when a group of selected ones was put aside.
    That moment the tragedy started.
    And he was dedicated to the mission.
    He was ambitious.
    He wanted to succeed.
    He called it the ark of Noah.
    He made it an ideology.
    And that moment, he objectively started
    to be a tool in the hands of the Nazis.
    Later, it became a knowing tool, which was done already,
    willfully.
    Not that he wanted to see the death of the masses,
    but he developed the other terrible phenomena.
    The apathy to the hundreds of thousands.
    They are dead.
    They are hopeless.
    They actually are not regarded anymore,
    although they are still alive, but the order of death
    is over their heads.
    Nothing doing.
    And all the effort should be concentrated on the few.
    And I say, as a Supreme Court Judge Zilber eventually judged,
    there is no human being who is authorized
    to take the place of God and say,
    you will go to death, masses, and you
    few will be rescued because I have chosen you.
    And I'm paying a price for your safety,
    not just as I rescue you and the other are sunk in a hurricane.
    I'm paying a price because the masses rely on me, because I
    could have divulged the story.
    And the collaboration became so close, that he knew everything.
    He was in the picture already, and the German, already,
    could trust him.
    He knew everything about Auschwitz.
    He knew everything about what's going on among the Germans,
    themselves.
    He became part of the Nazi [INAUDIBLE]
    in Hungary, gradually.
    And eventually, in the beginning of 1945,
    they took him all around, all around.
    He came back from Switzerland, to Vienna,
    when they were almost no Jews there,
    to accompany the Nazi leaders.
    He was an alibi for them.
    He was the alibi for them and they kept him,
    and they trusted the developments
    that even in the free world, he would
    continue to give them an alibi.
    Yes, and he was a kind of Inspector of the concentration
    camps.
    According to some reports.
    I don't know the facts for that.
    No, no, I mean at the end, objectively, when he went--
    Not an inspector.
    There were all kinds of rumors to how deep
    and how close this friendship and fraternity developed
    between them and himself.
    But anyhow, I agree with you the tragedy as a selection,
    it started--
    It started there but it developed
    into a much deeper abyss.
    Yes.
    We could say this, he was negotiating with Eichmann
    in order to save some Jewish lives.
    And because he was negotiating in order to save some,
    he had to keep the side on the secrecy
    and to doom all the others.
    This is the paradox of the negotiation.
    Because in principle, he was negotiating
    to save Jewish lives.
    That's how it started.
    But towards the end, he didn't save anybody.
    But this leads us to something else,
    and I would like you very much to talk about this.
    And I know it's very difficult to formulate,
    and I don't even know how to formulate it myself,
    but there was who did he select in the Koloszvár.
    He selected, mostly a kind of elite people,
    or which he considered as an elite, the Zionist
    or some other prominence.
    Not necessarily Zionists.
    No.
    He took from all branches.
    Not in Kolosvár Afterwards in Budapest.
    In Cluj and Koloszvár there were 20,000 Jews.
    And among them, there were thousands of Zionists.
    He picked leaders, or what he considered
    leaders, or activists, or prominent people.
    This was the word, prominent.
    Among them, of course, were Zionist prominent people,
    but not only them.
    Some people, apparently, were put in the list
    because they have donated to the fund of the committee
    and not to his personal purpose.
    There were a few very religious people.
    Rabbi Teitelbaum was there.
    But the Zionists, and the Zionist of his party,
    were among those who were firstly selected
    for this prominent group.
    Yes.
    But I give you two pages, 20 and 21.
    Maybe you put the question yourself?
    I mean, what is very wrong, and you said it perfectly,
    is the idea of selection.
    But it is true, too, that everybody couldn't be saved.
    Whether you know the point of the people who
    support Kasztner's stand.
    It's what they said during the trial,
    and what they go and say today.
    That because it was impossible to save everybody,
    it was perfectly right to choose a kind of sample,
    and people of its own kind.
    They said that it was always so in Jewish history,
    where they had to choose.
    They choose the people or their own family,
    or their own political parties.
    And what I don't like in all this, is the idea of an elite.
    I agree completely with you.
    But I think and I say this myself.
    You are not obliged to agree with me.
    Zionism was born with the idea that it
    was necessary to redeem the Jewish people.
    And, of course, it's not so difficult to trace a line which
    says if it's impossible to save everybody,
    it's better to save the people who
    redeem than there was no one.
    And for instance, as a lawyer of Kasztner
    during the trial, the church, Chaim Cohen
    had a very striking, and for me, for many
    who have horrifying word.
    A sentence he wrote, he said, for those and millions of Jews
    like them, I mean Jews who were murdered.
    They came to the old curse on laws
    they were meant to be taken like sheep for slaughter,
    for killing, for destruction, for crushing and shame, which
    is a biblical saying, as we know.
    But he goes on, and he says, there was no spirit in them.
    The Jewish masses in the Warsaw were in the same condition.
    What would you say?
    I'll first react to your first point, where you say,
    if you can't save everybody, you save those who you can.
    I don't say this, myself.
    All that this was claimed, for example,
    if many people are in danger, you take care of your family.
    Definitely and naturally.
    Private citizen, private member of the community, or even
    a small activist.
    I call it small.
    When he sees danger around, and many people are in danger,
    and he has his wife, his children, his parents,
    it's perfectly natural that he'll
    do his utmost, first to save those who are close to him.
    I would be the last to argue against such
    a natural inborn attitude.
    I'm talking of the role of a leader who was trusted
    with a mission, rescue mission.
    A rescue mission of hundreds of thousands,
    who capitulates and winds up in a personal rescue
    operation, or semi-permanent rescue operation,
    at the price of collaborating with the killers of those
    whom he was destined, or sent, or take upon himself,
    to rescue.
    So it's all the difference in the world.
    I said, too, that only the family.
    But the people of their own parties,
    and in political parties.
    Political party is another story.
    I don't think a man has a duty, any duty,
    in a moment of danger, to prefer members of one's own party,
    to members of somebody else's party.
    Party is a framework of political activity.
    It has nothing to do with saving lives, and so on.
    But as to your second point, you have made a quote
    from Attorney General, the then Attorney General Chaim
    Cohen, today a member of the Supreme Court.
    I bitterly contested in the trial, this attitude.
    First of all, nobody, neither Kasztner, nor any other Zionist
    leader then, had the right to say, those are the doomed ones,
    and those are the chosen for life.
    And who is to say that there was no spirit them?
    I've answered in court, I feel it today,
    with the same conviction.
    No spirit?
    Hannah Szenes?
    Jews of Hungary?
    He didn't talk about Hannah Szenes.
    He talked of the masses.
    How many Hannah Szenes's were there
    in Hungary, that we don't know their names, because they
    are dead?
    Out of the same Hungary, came a boy,
    who later was known as Dov Gruner, was put to the gallows
    by the British, here in this country.
    Or Weiss.
    Or Perez Goldstein.
    Do we know who had the spirit and who didn't have spirit?
    Mothers had no spirit to rescue and risk their own lives
    to save their children?
    Husbands to protect their wives with their own body,
    had they known all the facts?
    How many people like Rabbi Weissmandel,
    not as eloquent, not leaders, but with the same soul
    and the same spirit, and the same readiness to be active.
    Hundreds of thousands of people.
    To justify him?
    You have to put after the death an epitaph
    over their dead bodies, they had no spirit
    because the leadership failed?
    Bitterly disagreed.
    I bitterly disagreed today, and I think it's totally wrong.
    How do you how do you explain that they
    came to such extremities to think like this?
    This is a question that should be posed for people said it.
    I'm not so sure, I think.
    To think that it is an explanation given
    by a single man.
    I mean the Zimmerman trial--
    In the trial it was given by the Attorney General who
    defended the case of Kasztner against our charges,
    and he has raised every argument.
    I think that, philosophically, morally,
    from any standard of values, it is wrong.
    It is wrong.
    I think so, too, deeply.
    You cannot elaborate more on this.
    No, because as to the old debate in Zionism,
    I can only say this.
    Zionism, and here I totally disagreed
    with this wonderful man, Rabbi Weissmandel,
    that Zionism was never meant to save the few
    with the price of the many.
    The founders of Zionism, Herzl, Nordau eventually Jabotinsky,
    came to their Zionist conviction with one aim,
    one paramount aim, to save Jewry, all of Jewry
    and to begin with the European Jewry
    from the danger of extinction, 60 years back.
    Max Nordau, famous writer and the aide of Herzl,
    said, almost in quote, 5 million Jews
    are in danger of extinction in Europe,
    and Zionism is established in order to uproot them
    from Europe, and replant them in the land of Israel,
    to save the masses.
    And this was the line of Herzl.
    Herzl didn't envisage a small tiny Jewish community
    in Palestine, which will be only a sample of something
    special of the elite.
    He meant the replant of the Jewish masses
    in the new Renaissance, spiritual but physical as well.
    And this was the line of Jabotinsky, mass evacuation
    and mass--
    Tamir, set.
    Be replanted.
    This was the idea of Jabotinsky--
    mass evacuation, mass rescue, and the building
    of a new country of the same very people, but in altogether
    a new environment, a new climate,
    a new framework of sovereignty.
    Zionism, original Zionism, is basically
    a humanistic movement.
    And its uppermost consideration was the rescue of the Jews,
    not just a spiritual movement.
    And therefore, this exceptional case of betrayal
    is anti-Zionist, is contrary to Zionism.
    It's a single case.
    And it's very far from being a typical to Zionist activity.
    Yes, I agree fully with you.
    But don't you think that the picture was
    distorted a little bit later?
    I mean, this quotation of Chaim Cohen
    is not unique, not only is the quotation, but the attitude.
    For instance, you talked about rescue,
    but there was a rescue committee in Palestine
    during the war, 1942, 1943, 1944.
    And the president of this rescue committee was this [INAUDIBLE]..
    So there are many criticism of speeches that he gave.
    When he said, if I have to choose, we have no money,
    but a few money we have, we have to choose
    between to give this money to the currently made Jewish
    National Fund in Israel in order to buy land
    or to buy and so on, or to give this money
    to rescue the masses of the Jews of Europe
    who were in danger of extermination.
    Very consciously I choose the cow.
    I'm not sure your quote is totally accurate.
    But the spirit was--
    Well, the spirit issue.
    His spirit was, his line was, that the work of building
    the country and concentrating on this operation,
    his first priority even over sending money
    to rescue of Jews in Europe, I think
    it was a very wrong attitude.
    I've attacked this attitude in the trial of Kasztner.
    I think it's a very egocentric non-Zionist attitude.
    And the failure of this philosophy
    was proven in a very catastrophic way.
    This was not the only grave mistake of leadership
    in the free world.
    Apparently, among all people, the immediate light or slight
    pain of your own is much more important to you
    than the most horrible savage atrocities
    committed against tens of thousands far away.
    The human being is built in a very egotistic way.
    But if it can be understood as to private people,
    it still remain a very grave mistake, sometimes crime,
    when it remains in the leadership,
    especially of your own people.
    But this is an internal retroactive deep painful debate
    among our own people.
    We have been faced, in the second World War,
    in the time of the Holocaust, with a combination, the most
    dreadful combination any people, any nation, any community ever
    faced.
    Killers over our heads in Europe headed by the Nazi Germans
    worked in cooperation with Hungarian Nazis,
    with Romanian Nazis, with Polish Nazis, with Ukrainian Nazis,
    with French Nazis, and so on.
    And the other world, the free world, was fighting Nazism--
    England, America, and even the Soviet Union.
    And there is a reason why I say even,
    because it was their fight to rescue a good number of Jews
    eventually.
    But the rest of the world has acted
    in a conspiracy of silence, of acquiescence
    with the death of the Jews.
    Not only acquiescence, there was even
    a partial indirect cooperation in bringing about the death.
    Because the refusal of England and America
    to dispatch one single bomber to explode Auschwitz crematoria,
    thus saving tens of thousands, if not more,
    Jews was not just an omission.
    It was an act of cooperation with death
    because it was done knowingly.
    And that's what contributed greatly
    to our revolt against the British
    towards the end of the second World War in this country,
    in Israel, in Palestine, in the then Palestine.
    So we were trapped between killers
    and between conspirators of silence
    of the whole world, isolated.
    And in view of this combination, all the debates
    that we have internally as to what were our mistakes
    or mistakes of our leadership are fading in comparison
    to this dreadful unique unprecedented combination
    of evil doers, Nazi warmongers, killers, fanatics,
    exterminators, and the calm, nonchalant, possibly somewhere
    satisfied people elsewhere who saw
    the death of the Jewish people and did
    nothing specific to save the Jews in the worst hour.
    What do you remember yourself personally over this time?
    I do.
    I do.
    I was a very young man.
    And we heard rumors that there might
    have been chances of rescue, and they were not exploited.
    And we were here in the safe Palestine, then Palestine.
    We knew of boats who were turned back by the British loaded
    with refugees.
    Even at the beginning of the war,
    we had the case of Struma, the boat with close to 1,000 Jews--
    men, women, and children--
    was disallowed to continue the way to Palestine.
    Sank into the ocean.
    And this was a direct result of British policy.
    And this was one of the very strong contributing factors
    that pushed a young man like me into the underground
    to fight the British while the war was going on.
    I can go even to detail.
    I remember the real direct push to join the underground,
    the underground Irgun Tzva Leumi was
    the desire for an independent country of our own.
    On the other hand, there were all kinds
    of deterrent elements--
    fear, doubt whether we can be successful.
    And there was a certain balance in the calculation in the mind.
    Should I do it or shouldn't I?
    It was involving danger for your own life and everything
    that is connected with it.
    The deciding factor, which brought about my decision,
    yes, take all these chances, was the Holocaust and the feeling
    that the British who fought Nazis at the same time
    prevented the Jews from rescue.
    So it was a fight of freedom combined with the reaction
    to the role of the good part of the world
    and the horrible tragedy.
    So excuse me.
    Tamir (film slating)
    Paradoxically and tragically, the British
    who fought the Nazis, the very same time
    prevented the Jews from being rescued.
    So both the most evil part of the world, Nazi Germany,
    and the bastion of freedom, England and the United States,
    in this dreadful combination by active killing
    and by passive acquiescence wound up with the fact
    that the Jews were slaughtered.
    And this feeling pushed boys like me in this country
    then to feel that we are not better than our brethren
    in Europe.
    And that we have to make the ultimate risk
    and to take all chances to put an end to this situation
    where Jews are being squeezed between killers
    and between conspirators of silence
    and eventually go to death chambers.
    And therefore, fight for freedom,
    for sovereignty, for independence,
    for a new Jewish Renaissance.
    In what rescue was concerned, rescue of the European Jews,
    did you have a feeling of helplessness?
    We felt that--
    Of powerlessness.
    Well, there were efforts.
    You know of the parachutists, the few parachutists who were
    sent to Europe by the Haganah.
    Yes.
    And there was an attempt to organize a similar group,
    a bigger group by the Irgun which failed because it
    was dependent on the British.
    But above all, even in '44, the actual knowledge
    of ours in this country was very limited, very obscured.
    And this is an altogether another story,
    but it's a very important one.
    How the facts were brought to the knowledge of the people
    in a way which didn't call them to an all out alarm.
    While there were elements who knew the facts for sure,
    the detailed facts.
    You're saying it was done in purpose?
    Some people thought this is the wise way.
    That things should be handled diplomatically.
    That efforts should be done in a way which
    won't create storms which may endanger this development
    or that development.
    These were very grave mistakes looking upon them
    retroactively, very grave mistakes.
    But again, this is an internal accounting
    that we do in our midst.
    And we have to do as a lesson for the future.
    But in face of what we faced from the outside world
    from the global situation, all the Jewish mistakes
    fade in comparison.
    Although when we are in our midst,
    we have to go deep into them.
    You know, I come back just once to Kasztner and Weissmandel.
    I said at the beginning of this conversation
    that Weissmandel was the one who initiated
    the bargaining with the Germans to save Jews with money.
    And it's a very extraordinary and beautiful story
    because the Germans were very interested
    in the idea of the Jewish power, that international Jewry
    was powerful and full of money.
    And it was not true, of course, on Weissmandel
    to invent even to create a character that he invented.
    And he said to the Germans [INAUDIBLE]
    I received the money from this one who work the International
    Jew.
    But yourself in principle, where you
    are you opposed to the idea of this negotiation?
    No, I saw nothing wrong in trying to save Jews
    for money or in any other way.
    Weissmandel, in my opinion, never
    came close to the demarcation line between an attempt
    to rescue and between collaboration, never.
    Very far from it.
    He was a beautiful soul.
    And the attempt to save souls with money, ransom
    is legitimate.
    It's tragic, but it's totally legitimate.
    It's so humane.
    What is money in comparison to a single human life?
    And it is what Weissmandel had actually asked.
    And he asked apart from other things,
    but he saw the whole scope.
    He said send us money to do it with money.
    Help us with other elements to--
    Bombers.
    No, no, before the bombers.
    To let people hide.
    Send bombers to drop leaflets all over Hungary
    so that the people will know for sure that they are doomed
    and do everything to save their lives.
    This is contrary to the whole Kasztner operation.
    And then he said bomb the bridges.
    Bomb Auschwitz.
    Made an outcry.
    Make that the major powers declare
    to Germany and to every German that he
    will be punished to death after the war
    if he participates in the atrocities.
    He saw all the scopes of activity
    because his heart was with these people.
    He identified himself with the people.
    He was a leader of the people.
    He was in the underground.
    And among other things, he tried the money element.
    Where is the pure Weissmandel really the leader of his people
    who initiated everything.
    Who cried his heart out.
    Who did everything in comparison with these terrible phenomena
    single.
    But frightful, which wound up in such a shameful collaboration.
    Single, not typical, which we can lament.
    And I would again define a man whose soul
    was burned in Auschwitz.
    That's it.
    (film logistics)
    Don't contain my smile.

    There is no transcript available for this track

    Overview

    Description
    Shmuel Tamir represented the defendant in the Kasztner libel trial in Israel He speaks passionately about the virtues of Rabbi Weissmandel and the perfidy of Rudolf Kasztner.

    FILM ID 3396 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:05 to 01:33:41
    CR 1 01:00:05 - 01:11:16
    Shmuel Tamir sits at a wooden table in front of a striped curtain with several books on the table in front of him. Lanzmann says that one of the main protagonists of his film is Rabbi Weissmandel. He asks Tamir to explain how he met Weissmandel and what his impressions were. Tamir says that in the course of the Kasztner trial he came across a heartbreaking document (he thinks he obtained it from Joel Brand) that turned out to have been written by Weissmandel, in which he accused the Jews who were not living in Europe of ignoring what was happening there. Tamir was impressed with the document and found out more about Weissmandel: that he had escaped a train heading toward Auschwitz, leaving his wife and family on the train, and that he had eventually established a Yeshiva in Mount Kisco, NY. Tamir wanted to meet Weissmandel, and did so in January 1956, in Mount Kisco. Weissmandel knew that Tamir was there seeking information to use in the Kasztner trial but he didn't want to cooperate because of his opposition to Zionism. Eventually Tamir became more aggressive in his demands for information and Weissmandel began to open up, although he refused outright to go to Jerusalem.

    CR 2 01:11:21 - 01:22:27
    Tamir is now looking at a book as he sits at the table. There is a brief shot of Lanzmann standing next to him and looking over his shoulder. Lanzmann's voice, off camera, instructs Tamir not to look at the camera but instead to look at the book until he tells him to start speaking. Weissmandel showed Tamir several letters and other documents that he had sent from Slovakia to the Allied nations during the war. Tamir says that these documents contained facts and "atmosphere" that, taken together, were extremely important as testimony. Weissmandel refused to let Tamir take the documents to use in Israel. Tamir greatly admired Weissmandel, although they were from different worlds. Another rabbi gave Tamir copies of the documents three hours before he was to return to Israel. Tamir reads, from the book in front of him, Weissmandel's accusation against those who did not help during the deportation of the Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz and his demand that the rail lines to Auschwitz be bombed. Tamir says that Weissmandel later gave him some tips about how to conduct the trial (the Kasztner trial was over but had been appealed).

    CR 3 01:22:33 - 01:33:41
    Lanzmann asks Tamir if he and Weissmandel discussed Kasztner specifically. Tamir says that Weissmandel was critical of Kasztner, even though he was taken to the Swiss border with Kasztner and Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's deputy. Tamir further states that this trip was taken in order to save Krumey. Tamir is of the opinion that Kasztner became enthralled with the power he held as a collaborator with the Nazis. He says that he suggested at the trial the Kasztner's "soul was burned at Auschwitz." Weissmandel told Tamir that Kasztner's reason for "collaborating" was money. Lanzmann clarifies that he is asking about Weissmandel's opinion of Kasztner because Weissmandel was the first one in Slovakia to use money to try and bribe the Germans, and he advised Kasztner and the others in the Aid and Rescue Committee (Vaada). Tamir says that of course Weissmandel believed in using money to save Jews, and that he himself does not believe that one can sit safely in the present moment and judge those who were operating in "the depths of hell", but that in the wide spectrum of behavior between the resistance movements and full-fledged collaboration, Kasztner crossed the line. He says he would be very hesitant to judge, for example, members of various Judenrats, but that by 1945 Kasztner had become "an integral part of the last remnants of the loyal SS."

    FILM ID 3397 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:05 to 02:33:31
    CR 4 02:00:05 - 02:11:14
    Tamir continues talking about Kasztner, saying that Kasztner was not a member of a Judenrat, and that the Kasztner affair was a unique case. Tamir points out that Kasztner made a statement on behalf of [Kurt] Becher after the war, and tried to help Krumey and Dieter Wisliceny. Tamir says that Kasztner became somehow identified with the SS and that his identity became twisted. Lanzmann reads a couple of quotations from Kasztner's writing. Tamir says that Kasztner should have warned the Jews of their fate. Lanzmann begins to tell Tamir that those who defend Kasztner say that he tried to warn people by sending members of the Halutzim youth movement into the ghettos.

    CR 5 02:11:17 - 02:22:23
    Lanzmann repeats his statement about the Halutzim being sent into the ghettos, and says that Kasztner's defenders also say that warning people was pointless because they would not have wanted to believe what was happening. Tamir says that these two arguments are contradictory, and that it was in the interests of the privileged, including Kasztner, not to warn the masses, so that the privileged few would be saved. He describes this as the "satanic gimmick of Eichmann, with which Kasztner collaborated." Tamir says there were all sorts of rumors about how close the relationship was between Kasztner and the SS leaders with whom he associated at the very end of the war. Lanzmann says that Kasztner selected mostly Zionists to be saved from Kolozsvar (Cluj) but Tamir disagrees with him and says that he selected leaders, among whom were Zionists, religious Jews, and others.

    CR 6 02:22:28 - 02:33:31
    CU on Tamir's face as he listens intently to Lanzmann's question about whether since it was impossible to save everyone, wasn't it natural for Kasztner to choose to save members of his family and those who were part of his circle, including Zionists. Lanzmann says further that Zionists saw themselves as the redeemers of the Jews, and so it would be natural to want to save those who could redeem. Tamir says that he says of course it was natural for Kasztner to want to save his family, but not at the price of collaboration. He says further that he disagreed strongly with Kasztner's lawyer when he said that those who were murdered had no spirit left and compared them to the masses in Warsaw. Tamir says that in his opinion, and here he disagreed with Weissmandel, Zionism was never meant to save the few at the price of the many.

    FILM ID 3398 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 03:00:05 to 03:20:10
    CR 7 03:00:05 - 03:11:19
    Tamir continues talking about Zionism and says that the Kasztner case is antithetical to Zionist activitiy. Lanzmann says that Chaim Cohen's (Kaztner's lawyer) attitude was not unique, and quotes Yitzhak Gruenbaum, head of the rescue committee in Palestine, as saying that the choice was to use money to rescue European Jews or to buy cows for the people of Palestine, he would choose the cow. Tamir says he doesn't think this quote is accurate but says he disagrees with this attitude. He says that the rest of the world acquiesced in the murder of the Jews, and that England and the US cooperated indirectly with the Germans by refusing to bomb the Auschwitz crematoria. Lanzmann asks Tamir what he remembers of this time. Tamir mentions the sinking of the Struma, a direct result of British policy, which was one of the things that drove him to take up the fight against the British.

    CR 8 03:11:33 - 03:20:10 Quick shot of Lanzmann before the camera pans back over to Tamir. Tamir says that paradoxically and tragically, the British, who fought the Nazis, also prevented the Jews from being saved. Lanzmann asks him whether he and others felt helpless to save the Jews of Europe, and Tamir mentions some rescue attempts that were made. He says that not everyone was made aware of what was going on, and that this was a mistake. He also says that the Jewish mistakes pale in comparison to the mistakes made by those in the rest of the world. Tamir says that he saw nothing wrong with trying to save Jews with money or any other means, and that Weissmandel never came close to crossing the line that Kasztner crossed. Weissmandel asked that leaflets be dropped on Hungary to inform the Jews that they were doomed, in contrast to Kasztner's attempts to keep the extermination quiet. He repeats that Kasztner's soul was burned in Auschwitz. He gathers up his books and remains seated for several seconds.

    FILM ID 3399 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,9A,9B -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:43
    Claude Lanzmann seated at a table, taking notes and listening to Tamir. He lights a cigarette, nods his head, and speaks occasionally (no sound).
    Duration
    01:34:00
    Date
    Event:  September or October 1979
    Production:  1985
    Locale
    Israel
    Credit
    Created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of "Shoah," used by permission of USHMM and Yad Vashem
    Contributor
    Director: Claude Lanzmann
    Interpreter: Corinna Coulmas
    Sound Engineer: Bernard Aubouy
    Cinematographer: William Lubtchansky
    Biography
    Claude Lanzmann was born in Paris to a Jewish family that immigrated to France from Eastern Europe. He attended the Lycée Blaise-Pascal in Clermont-Ferrand. His family went into hiding during World War II. He joined the French resistance at the age of 18 and fought in the Auvergne. Lanzmann opposed the French war in Algeria and signed a 1960 antiwar petition. From 1952 to 1959 he lived with Simone de Beauvoir. In 1963 he married French actress Judith Magre. Later, he married Angelika Schrobsdorff, a German-Jewish writer, and then Dominique Petithory in 1995. He is the father of Angélique Lanzmann, born in 1950, and Félix Lanzmann (1993-2017). Lanzmann's most renowned work, Shoah, is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. He began interviewing survivors, historians, witnesses, and perpetrators in 1973 and finished editing the film in 1985. In 2009, Lanzmann published his memoirs under the title "Le lièvre de Patagonie" (The Patagonian Hare). He was chief editor of the journal "Les Temps Modernes," which was founded by Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, until his death on July 5, 2018. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/claude-lanzmann-changed-the-history-of-filmmaking-with-shoah
    From 1974 to 1984, Corinna Coulmas was the assistant director to Claude Lanzmann for his film "Shoah." She was born in Hamburg in 1948. She studied theology, philosophy, and sociology at the Sorbonne and Hebrew language and Jewish culture at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and INALCO in Paris. She now lives in France and publishes about the Five Senses. http://www.corinna-coulmas.eu/english/home-page.html

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Genre/Form
    Outtakes.
    B&W / Color
    Color
    Image Quality
    Good
    Film Format
    • Master
      • Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
    • Preservation
      • Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
    • User
      • User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    You do not require further permission from the Museum to access this archival media.
    Copyright
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel
    Conditions on Use
    Third party must sign the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's SHOAH Outtakes Film License Agreement in order to reproduce and use film footage. Contact filmvideo@ushmm.org

    Copyright Holder
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    Yad Vashem
    State of Israel

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Film Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the Shoah outtakes from Claude Lanzmann on October 11, 1996. The Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection is now jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem - The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority.
    Note
    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating survivors, perpetrators, and eyewitnesses for his nine and a half hour film Shoah released in 1985. Without archival footage, Shoah weaves together extraordinary testimonies to render the step-by-step machinery of the destruction of European Jewry. Critics have called it "a masterpiece" and a "monument against forgetting." The Claude Lanzmann SHOAH Collection consists of roughly 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming.

    Staff-curated clips include:
    Clip 1, Film ID 3396, 01:00:26 - 01:10:58
    Clip 2, Film ID 3396, 01:22:33 - 01:33:35
    Clip 3, Film ID 3397, 02:11:17 - 02:29:18
    Clip 4, Film ID 3398, 03:00:08 - 03:09:52
    Film Source
    Claude Lanzmann
    File Number
    Legacy Database File: 5364
    Record last modified:
    2024-02-21 07:47:13
    This page:
    https:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn1004453

    Additional Resources

    Transcript (English)
    Time Coded Notes (3)

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    Also in Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating and interviewing survivors, perpetrators, eyewitnesses, and scholars for the nine-and-a-half-hour film SHOAH released in 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the archive of SHOAH outtakes from Mr. Lanzmann on October 11, 1996, and have since been carrying out the painstaking work necessary to reconstruct and preserve the films, which consist of 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming. The collection is jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. SHOAH is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. It weaves together extraordinary testimonies to describe the step-by-step machinery implemented to destroy European Jewry. Critics call it “a sheer masterpiece” and a “monument against forgetting.”

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Film

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz was a Pole who ran a pharmacy within the confines of the Krakow ghetto, refusing the Germans' offer to let him relocate to another part of the city. He aided Jews by providing free medication and allowing the pharmacy to be used as a meeting place for resisters. FILM ID 3220 -- Camera Rolls #1-2, 3-4, and 5-7 01:00:09 CR 1,2: Lanzmann and Pankiewicz stand in a Krakow street. They spend most of the interview in different parts of the Plac Zgody (now Plac Bohakerow Getta), from which Jews were deported from the Krakow ghetto. They begin walking. Pankiewicz tells Lanzmann that in 1941 he got the order to run a pharmacy within the ghetto. The Germans first required him to prove that he was not Jewish. From the window of his pharmacy he could see all the deportations from Plac Zgody and the horrible treatment meted out to the Jews. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz to describe exactly what he saw. They are standing on Targowa street, the street where the Jews were gathered for deportation, and where Pankiewics's pharmacy was situated. White screen with some audio from 01:03:16 to 01:04:02. The first slate says "Warsaw" but the interview is clearly in Krakow. CR 2 Lanzmann and Pankiewicz are sitting outdoors on a bench on Plac Lwowska in front of a constuction site (construction of a tram line?). Lanzmann says that an Aryan-run pharmacy in the ghetto was one of a kind. Pankiewicz says that he lived at the Apotheke, because he had to be available day and night. He says that after the liquidation [in March 1943], when the Jews would come from Plaszow, his pharmacy acted as a restaurant, supplying food to them. He talks about the division of the ghetto into two parts, part A (where those still capable of work lived) and part B (where those to be deported lived). He describes the barbed wire surrounding the ghetto and the guarded gates at the edges. Lanzmann asks him to describe the "Grosse Aktion" on the Plac Zgody. Pankiewicz says that Plac Zgody was the main deportation point and that he saw many terrible things from the window of his pharmacy. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews were hopeless and Pankiewicz says they were resigned. He says that when the liquidation came he himself did not eat for three days: he could not go out and he had always eaten in a Jewish restaurant. Pankiewicz says that during the first deportation, in June 1941, the Jews thought that they were being resettled in the Ukraine. However, by the time of the October 28, 1942 deportation the Jews knew that deportation meant death. A woman had written a letter to her relatives, telling them that she was in Belzec. Shots of people walking through the construction site. No audio. 01:16:08. Close-up of sign reading 17 Plac Zgody . Another plaque, perhaps commemorating the location. 02:00:00 CR 3,4: Long shot of the pharmacy. The camera pulls in to reveal Pankiewicz standing outside the pharmacy in a white coat. The pharmacy was located on Targowa Street. Close-ups of Pankiewicz. Shots of Pankiewicz inside the pharmacy. The slate now reads "Krakow." Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz why he wrote a book about his experiences. Pankiewicz says that he wanted to answer the many questions that were put to him after the war, to explain why he was not liquidated himself, and to tell those who had no contact with the ghetto what it was like. A confusing passage about Germans who were arrested immediately after the liquidation of the ghetto and about rescuing some Jews. Pankiewicz talks again about how he sold food, not medicine, to the Jewish laborers from Plaszow, because they were healthy but wanted food. Pankiewicz says that he had Jewish friends even before the war and that he only thinks in terms of good people and bad people, not Jew and non-Jew. He talks about the establishment of the ghetto and his reaction to it (the dates he uses are not consistent). He says he and his family had lived in the location where the ghetto was established, and he talks about hiding Jews in his room during the ghetto's liquidation (or during a deportation?). He says he received a letter from a woman in Israel who claimed to have hidden in the pharmacy, but he did not remember her. Lanzmann asks him about suicide in the ghetto. Pankiewicz says that there were some who did commit suicide, once they knew they were going to be deported. He says that the Jews knew what deportation/evacuation meant and so did he. News and letters came from Belzec. Lanzmann asks him why, in his opinion, if the Jews knew what would happen to them, did they not resist? He says the Jews thought that maybe they would actually survive, that the situation was not as bad as it was in Warsaw. He said many of the Jews had connection to the Polish side and were not as isolated as Warsaw Jews were. He said Jews could leave the ghetto at times but had no place to go. Helping Jews was an automatic death sentence, and the Jews often wanted to take their entire families with them. 03:00:00 CR 5, 6, 7: Pankiewicz knew of several cases where Poles helped Jews after the liquidation of the ghetto, but it was not possible to help entire families. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz again why he thought the Jews did not fight when they were deported. He says he is not speaking of the Jewish resistance, but of the people who were trapped in the ghetto and deported. Pankiewicz say that the Jews were so resigned, had been through so much terror and horror, that they simply wanted an end. He says that if a wife was deported a husband and children might follow voluntarily. Yet at the same time the Jews maintained some small hope that they might not be murdered, might be able to help each other survive. Lanzmann asks about the role of the Jewish police. He says that there were good and bad police and gives an example of two policemen who he knew in school and who helped him to smuggle a Jew out of Krakow. He talks about various members of the Jewish Council, including Rosenzweig. Lanzmann points out that they were all liquidated in the end. Lanzmann asks again whether his burden was too much to bear during these times. Pankiewicz says no, although he was so bound up with the Jews, that he believed that what happened to them would also happen to him. He says that the Jews have built him up into a kind of legend, but it is not true. He did not know at the time what he was doing, he simply did it. Lanzmann asks him whether he was married at the time and he says no. He says he had dealings with only a few Germans. A new reel begins and Pankiewicz returns to the fact that the Jews have built a small legend out of him, but that he only did what one human should do for other humans who were in a tragic situation. 03:15:02 - 03:17:02 various shots of Pankiewicz.

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Document

    Contains documentation, including indices, summaries, transcripts, and translations, compiled by Claude Lanzmann while developing the film "Shoah."

    Abraham Bomba - Treblinka

    Abraham Bomba - Treblinka

    Film

    Abraham Bomba, a barber from Czestochowa, Poland, is featured prominently in the film Shoah. In the outtakes interview he talks about the treatment the Jews received when the Germans first arrived in his town, deportation to Treblinka, and his work cutting the hair of people right before they entered the gas chambers. Bomba escaped from Treblinka and tried to warn the remaining residents of Czestochowa but they did not believe him. In his memoirs published in 2009, Lanzmann calls Bomba "one of the heroes of my film." FILM ID 3197 -- Camera Rolls #1-3A -- 01:00:06 to 01:33:59 Lanzmann asks Bomba how long he has lived in Israel and how he likes it. Bomba says he was a Zionist when he lived in Czestochowa, Poland before the war. He talks about his family, how hard things were after World War I, and the Jewish community of Czestochowa. When the Germans invaded in 1939 his family tried to flee but they had nowhere to go. He describes the rapid stigmatization and loss of rights suffered by the Jews: mandatory armbands, confiscation of radios and valuables, curfews. In 1941 the ghetto was created. Bomba says that conditions were terrible but that people still had hope. He got married in 1940 and in August 1941 (or 1942?) his wife had a son. FILM ID 3198 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:06 to 02:21:10 On September 22, 1942, the first deportation from Czestochowa took place, and Bomba's brother and his family were deported. Bomba did not know at this time that deportation meant death. Bomba describes the next deportation, when he and his family were selected and loaded onto trains. He says that the Polish people who watched the trains go by laughed at the plight of the Jews. He describes the train journey to Treblinka and arrival at the camp. He was immediately separated from his wife, child, and mother, and assigned to the red (Jewish) commando. FILM ID 3199 -- Camera Rolls #5A,8A,9A -- 03:00:09 to 03:23:23 Camera mostly on Lanzmann with some side views of Bomba. Some segments have no picture. Lanzmann clasps Bomba's hand for most of the interview. Bomba describes arrival at Treblinka and his escape from the camp. Some parts (Camera Rolls 8 and part of 9) are repeated from a different view on Film ID 3200. FILM ID 3200 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 04:00:04 to 04:29:17 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bomba was selected to work and he describes the strange quiet that descended after the other prisoners entered the gas chamber, and the location where the corpses were burned. The Germans found out that Bomba was a barber and assigned him to cut the hair of the women before they were gassed. Lanzmann asks Bomba how many people escaped from Treblinka and how he decided to try and escape. Bomba describes his escape from the camp after he had been there for three months [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3201 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:34:07 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Bomba and another man manage to return to Czestochowa and tell people there that their relatives who have been sent to Treblinka are dead, but people do not want to believe them. Eventually some of the ghetto residents went to the German commandant, Degenhart [?] and reported Bomba, but Degenhart did not do anything about it [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Lanzmann asks Bomba why he thinks the Jews were so reluctant to believe him about Treblinka. Bomba gives a long answer and says that the Jewish people did not go to the slaughterhouse like sheep, that they did fight back. Bomba talks about the experience of the religious Jews. FILM ID 3202 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:23 This tape contains footage of Bomba in the barber shop. The man in the chair getting his hair cut is Bomba's friend from Czestochowa. There is no dialogue. FILM ID 3203 -- Camera Rolls #16-17 -- 07:00:05 to 07:03:24 Bomba describes the appearance of the gas chamber. He describes cutting the hair of the women and children, who thought that they were about to take showers. FILM ID 3204 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:06 to 08:32:01 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Bomba says that the girlfriend of the Jewish commandant, Galewski, arrived at the gas chamber too and he did not tell her what was about to happen. He says the Polish Jews realized more than those from other parts of Europe what was about to happen to them. Bomba tells the story of a woman who managed to cut the throats of two Capos in the gas chamber. One of them died and the Germans gave him a funeral and he was buried, the only proper grave at Treblinka [CLIP 3 ENDS]. Bomba says that the barbers only cut hair in the gas chamber for a short time before they were moved to the undressing barracks. Bomba says it was hard for him to get used to cutting womens' hair again after the war. FILM ID 3205.1 -- Coupes -- 09:00:00 to 09:04:58 Short, mute clips. Boat at sea. Barbershop. FILM ID 3205.2 -- Coupes 14A,20B,19A Short, mute clips. CUS, Bomba sitting outdoors in Israel. CUs, Bomba and Lanzmann during the face to face interview. Beach. Bomba at barber shop.

    Andre Steiner

    Andre Steiner

    Film

    Andre Steiner, an architect, discusses the Judenrat and resistance activities in Slovakia with Lanzmann. He recounts relations with Rabbi Weissmandel and Gisi Fleischmann in their attempt to rescue Slovak Jews from deportation. FILM ID 3414 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 00:00:22 to 00:33:51 CR1 Andre Steiner was born into an assimilated Czechoslovakian Jewish family. He was an architect in Brno and in 1939 he was imprisoned briefly because his father-in-law was a leader of the Jewish Agency in Czechoslovakia. He and his family left Brno for Bratislava as soon as he was released from prison. In Bratislava he eventually became a part of the Judenrat. He was sent out to determine what types of buildings would be needed at the sites where the Germans intended to build concentration camps for the Jews. Steiner, along with Gisi Fleischmann and Dr. Neumann, were convinced that it would be much better for the Jews if they were able to stay in Slovakia, even in camps, rather than be deported to Poland or anywhere else. 00:11:28 CR2 The Slovak government demanded that the work camps be self-supporting within three months. Because of his connections and his position as an architect, Steiner managed to get work with the Slovak government for himself and for other Jewish architects. Steiner says that a few members of the Judenrat, including himself, Gisi Fleischmann, and Dr. Neumann, met separately and made other plans. They did not like the "yes-man" attitude that prevailed among some of the Judenrat members, including the head, Schepersczy?, and Hochberg, who dealt with Dieter Wisliceny, Eichmann's deputy. Lanzmann asks Steiner to elaborate on this "shadow government" formed by the dissident members of the Judenrat. 00:22:40 CR3 Steiner says that Slovakia still had an independent state and the Slovaks were in charge of the deportations. The first deportation happened in spring 1942 when 999 girls were deported. After the deportations started, Rabbi Weissmandel was able to provide them with some news from Poland, and they learned that most of those deported were not going to work camps in Germany, as had been promised, and that families were separated. FILM ID 3415 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:05 CR4 Weissmandel asked Steiner to try and arrange a kosher kitchen in the camps for the orthodox Jews, which Steiner succeeded in doing. Steiner says he began to feel a "magic influence" from Weissmandel and saw what a beautiful person he was on the inside. Weissmandel chose Steiner to be the go-between with Wisliceny, once Hochberg was thrown in jail by the Slovaks. 00:11:36 CR5 Steiner says that there were around 80,000 Jews in Slovakia when the deportations began. 00:12:49 CR6 The deportations from Slovakia quickly became large-scale and Weissmandel convinced Steiner he must bribe both the Slovaks and the Germans, including Wisliceny, to stop the deportations. Steiner tells of his first meeting with Wisliceny, in which he stood up to the German as Weissmandel advised. Steiner invoked "world Jewry" in order to get Wisliceny to believe that he had the money and power to provide a bribe. Lanzmann makes reference to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the powerful influence that the myth of the Jewish world conspiracy had on the Germans. 00:22:47 CR7 Steiner discusses the source of the bribe money, which provided means of communication between camps and the ability to send medical aid. Steiner confirms that the bribe was successful since no deportations occurred between July and September. In October, three more transports occurred, purportedly due to a false report of the number of Jews in the country, though Weissmandel believed it was because the Jews had not offered more bribe money. After this anomaly, however, deportations ceased completely. FILM ID 3416 -- Camera Rolls #8-14 -- 03:00:08 to 03:33:44 CR8 Weissmandel created a fictitious person named Joseph Rot, based in Switzerland, who represented "world Jewry." 03:00:55 CR9 Steiner and Gisi Fleischmann forged letters from Rot. Steiner says that Weissmandel thought that money would come pouring in to help save the Jews, once it became known what the deportations really meant. In November 1942 Weissmandel burst into Gisi Fleischmann's office, terribly upset, with the first definite news from Poland that deportation meant annihilation. Weissmandel resolved to impart what he had learned of the killings to the world, and wrote to various countries and authorities worldwide. His thinking was that, once the news was known, foreign Jewish money would flow into Eastern Europe to combat the atrocities. 03:11:20 CR10 By bribing Wisliceny they had essentially stopped the deportations from Slovakia (although only 20,000 Jews remained), which encouraged Weissmandel to develop the so-called Europaplan, by which he meant to save the rest of Europe's Jews. Steiner went to Wisliceny and offered two million dollars that they did not have to stop all European deportations. Wisliceny said he had to take the proposition to Himmler, who purportedly said yes to the agreement. Steiner describes Gisi Fleischmann as the person who held the group together. She was a Zionist and very idealistic. 03:22:32 CR11 Steiner speaks of the Europaplan, which was designed to save Jews in France, the Scandinavian countries, and Hungary. Cut early due to telephone ringing. 03:23:34 CR12 Re-take with Steiner discussing the details of the Europaplan. They determined through Weissmandel's "divine arithmetic" that there were around one million Jews left in Europe at this time. 03:24:31 CR13 Re-take with Steiner discussing the Europaplan, fundraising efforts, and negotiations with Wisliceny. Steiner proposed saving 1,000 children who were sent to Theresienstadt from Bialystok, and the failure to raise money to ensure the deal. Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee in Switzerland, said he did not believe that the Germans would hold up their end of the bargain. During the Nuremberg trials, Wisliceny stated the reason the children were not saved because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem objected. 03:30:54 CR14 Lanzmann talks to Steiner about the children's transport to Theresienstadt from Bialystok in winter 1942 and visiting the ghetto with a survivor. FILM ID 3417 -- Camera Rolls #15-17 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:00 CR15 Lanzmann continues with the story of the children's transport. They were segregated from the rest of the population and given medical care, but after one month they were sent to Auschwitz, where they were gassed upon arrival. Lanzmann confronted Murmelstein about the transport during an earlier interview for the film. This transport has been a mystery that Lanzmann has been trying to solve and now he knows that the children were killed because the money to pay Wisliceny did not come through. Steiner talks about Fleischmann's visit to Hungary. The Hungarian Jews there welcomed her with much pomp and circumstance, a complete contrast from the way the Jews in Slovakia were living. They offered to fundraise and send money, but only through official channels, which was of no use to the Slovak Jews. 00:11:37 CR16 Lanzmann makes a distinction between the aims of the Europaplan, to save all Jews, and the aims of other rescue missions (he mentions Kazstner and Freudiger in Hungary), to pick and choose whom to save. Lanzmann presses Steiner about how he could believe that the Germans, represented by Wisliceny, would have delivered on their end of the Europaplan, if the Slovak Jews had been able to raise the money. Steiner is convinced to this day that the Germans were sincere, and that it was only due to the lack of funds from the "World Jewry" that the plan fell apart. They could not fulfill their side of the deal. 00:22:45 CR17 Even after Wisliceny had left for Greece to organize the deportations of the Greek Jews to Auschwitz, Steiner and company would continue to meet with him during his occasional visits to discuss the plan. Lanzmann asks Steiner what he thinks about the fact that, in September 1944, Weissmandel jumped from a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Weissmandel was so disturbed by this series of events that he subsequently considered himself the murderer of his own family. Steiner, however, agrees with what Weissmandel did, and says that while a family could not have escaped in such a fashion, a single person could. The fact that Weissmandel was so integral to the effort to save the European Jews made his survival doubly important. Even though Steiner became quite close with Weissmandel, they never discussed their families. They were concerned with saving unknown multitudes, not their own relatives. FILM ID 3418 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 00:00:23 to 00:21:37 CR18 Lanzmann asks about Rudolf Vrba, who escaped from Auschwitz and whom Lanzmann interviewed. Vrba claims he gave Weissmandel and the others a description of Auschwitz, from which they made a map and distributed it with a request that the Allies bomb the crematoria and the railroad lines. Steiner talks about Weissmandel's suggestion that they blow up a railroad tunnel. Steiner says the Warsaw Ghetto uprising did not change their minds about positively affecting Jewish fates through means other than armed conflict. 00:11:30 CR19 They talk about the end, when the deportations started again in September 1944. Gisi Fleischmann was sent to Auschwitz, where she died. Steiner joined the partisan assisting in the smuggling of weapons into the camps. Steiner says that according to what he has heard, Gisi Fleischmann was singled out to be the first person in the transport to go into the gas chamber as "special treatment" for her role in the Judenrat. Steiner says that the greatest personal satisfaction he ever got was during his time in the "Rettungsaktion," even if only a small segment of the Slovak Jewry was saved by his actions. Steiner continued work as an architect and became a city planner in Atlanta, Georgia after 1950. FILM ID 3419 -- Camera Rolls #20,21,23 -- 06:00:08 to 06:04:03 Silent CUs of Lanzmann. LS, Steiner's home in Atlanta. Steiner exits and walks through his yard. Mute.

    Hanna Marton

    Hanna Marton

    Film

    Hanna Marton is from Cluj (now Romania), formerly the capital of Transylvania. Both Hanna Marton and her husband were lawyers and Zionists. Marton was aboard the train organized by Rudolf (Rezso) Kasztner, carrying 1684 'privileged' Jews that left Hungary for Germany, eventually bringing them to Bergen-Belsen on 9 July 1944. Claude Lanzmann asks questions in French, which Hanna Marton understands, although she replies in Hebrew. Her answers are translated to French by Lanzmann's female translator, Francine Kaufmann. The transcript is in French only. Cluj was also known as Kolozsvar and Klausenburg. Both Lanzmann and Marton use the names Cluj and Kolozsvar interchangebly in the interview. The interview took place over two days in Mrs. Marton's apartment in Jerusalem. FILM ID 3148 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:00 to 01:29:53 Hanna Marton sits in a chair in front of some bookcases in her home. She holds her husband's diary, a small brown book with the date 1944 embossed on the front, in her lap. Lanzmann clarifies the three names for Cluj: Cluj, Kolozsvar, and Klausenburg. Marton says there were 15,000 Jews in Cluj during the war. She gives some history of the Jewish presence in Cluj, but says that her husband, who died a year and a half ago, knew much more than she does. Both Marton and her husband were Zionists, and she had no contact with the orthodox community. Marton's husband managed to remain working at a high school until June, 1942, when he was sent to the Russian front, returning towards the end of 1943. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Marton's husband told her that the conditions were terrible, especially during the winter. Lanzmann points out that the Jews were fighting in the Hungarian army, which was in turn fighting with the German army. Marton gives more details about how the Jews were treated by the Hungarians. FILM ID 3149 -- Camera Rolls #6-8 -- 02:00:00 to 02:32:45 Marton received letters from her husband at first but then none came for eight months. The retreat of the Hungarian army was chaotic and the Jews received good treatment from some Russian peasants. Marton says that her husband told her there was an instance where Jews and Wehrmacht soldiers slept together in the same bed in the home of some Russian peasants. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Of the 60,000 Jews who were sent to the Russian front only 5,000 returned. Marton says that as far as she recalls, in 1942 she did not know about the fate of the Polish Jews, but that she thinks she was aware by 1944, when the Germans took over Hungary. She thinks that most people knew but they didn't want to believe it, and that they followed the orders of the Germans because of a respect for the law. Marton describes how the Jews were ghettoized in Cluj, in May, 1944. They did not receive instructions from the Judenrat and the entire process was conducted by the Hungarians. FILM ID 3150 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 03:00:00 to 03:33:30 The Jews of Cluj were concentrated in a brickyard and slept outside. The first transport left the brickyard within days, and many people volunteered to be on it. Marton had never heard the name Auschwitz at that point. Lanzmann asks Marton about her relationships with the Danzig and Fischer families. Dr. Fischer was Rudolf [Rezso] Kasztner's father-in-law. Marton did not see Kasztner in Cluj. The members of the Judenrat were the last to arrive in the ghetto; they arrived on May 15. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Marton describes how she first heard from her husband that there was a list of people who would be on a special transport, a transport that would not go to the same destination as the others (the so-called Kasztner Train). She says that she did not want to be part of this special group but her husband convinced her to go. They knew that their fates would be better than that of the Jews who were not on the list. Lanzmann asks Marton what she thought the selection criteria were and says she had no knowledge of a resuce committee in Budapest, that she thought that the list must have been compiled by "our people," the Zionists. Changes were made to the original list for various reasons. Transports were departing regularly and people had realized that the people on these transports would suffer a terrible fate. People made every effort to be a part of the special transport. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Lanzmann lays out the accusations that have been leveled against Kasztner since the end of the war: that Kasztner chose only his own family and other important people to go on the transport, and that he did not warn the people of Cluj and others that they were destined for extermination. FILM ID 3151 -- Camera Rolls #12-14 -- 04:00:00 to 04:32:39 [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Marton says that perhaps if the people of Cluj had been warned that the deportations meant death then a minority of them would have tried to escape. She says that the Jews simply could not escape the ghetto and that these events were happening all across Europe, not just in Hungary. On June 7th the last transport left Cluj for Auschwitz, so that only the 388 people who were assigned to the special transport remained in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Marton how they lived with that, how did they look each other in the eye? Marton says that they were in a state of shock, and further that they did not know at the time exactly what awaited them, where they would go, or that it was certain that they would live. Lanzmann and Marton consult Mr. Marton's diary, which provides some detail about who was on the list. Most of those on the list were Zionists. Marton insists that there were some poor people who were part of the group. Marton tells a story about two people from the train who ended up being imprisoned in the Nojverod (??) ghetto. They met Marton's father and were able to assure him that she was on her way to Palestine. Her father said that now he accepted his fate, knowing that she was safe. The transport reached Budapest and they stayed in the Columbus Kasse until June 30th. By the time they left Budapest the transport had swelled to 1684 people. Lanzmann quotes Kasztner about the makeup of the transport and asks Marton how those in the transport were selected, but Marton says she has no idea. She does know, however, that some people refused their places on the transport. One of these people was Jeno Heltai, a Hungarian writer and a couisn of Thedor Herzl. Lanzmann and Marton discuss the composition of the list. FILM ID 3152 -- Camera Roll #15 -- 05:00:00 to 05:10:36 They continue to discuss the makeup of the list. Marton says that Kasztner's use of the the term "Noah's Ark" to describe the transport was correct, and that there were people from all classes on the list. She says that by the time they were travelling on the transport they knew the fate of the rest of the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz. There was a rumor on the transport that their train was going to Auschwitz. Lanzmann points out that a panic broke out because the passengers confused Auschwitz with another town that they passed through (Auschbitz?). Marton quotes from her husband's diary about this panic. FILM ID 3153 -- Camera Roll #16 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:27:30 Lanzmann reviews what Marton has told him about two panics that occurred among the members of the Kasztner transport: one when the passengers confused the words Aushbitz (? a town in Czechoslovakia) with Auschwitz, and another panic that occurred in Linz: when the passengers were ordered into showers for disinfection the Polish Jews thought they would be gassed. Marton says that during the journey they did not know where they were being sent. They arrived eventually at Celle and walked to Bergen-Belsen. Marton checks her husband's diary and states the number of people of various age groups who were part of the transport. FILM ID 3154 -- Camera Roll #17 -- 07:00:00 to 07:11:18 [CLIP 6 BEGINS] Marton describes the conditions at Bergen-Belsen. She says that the group was lead by Dr. Fischer and that the Jews participated in holiday observances, lectures, and other activities. She does not remember the Germans entering their barracks and thus they were free to pursue such activities. Dr. Fischer had the contacts with the Germans. The group stayed at Bergen-Belsen from July until December, 1944, although a group of about 300 left for Switzerland in August. FILM ID 3155 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:00 to 08:21:40 [CLIP 7 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Marton how those Jews who were on the Kasztner transport could live with themselves, knowing that the other Jews of Cluj were killed, and Marton says that they asked themselves why they were chosen. She says further that one should blame the Nazis for instituting such a system, rather than those who were forced by the Nazis to make the decisions about who would live and who would die. Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's second in command, announced to them that those Jews of Hungarian citizenship would leave for Switzerland first. Marton describes crossing the border from Germany, which was dark and gloomy, into the well-lit territory of Switzerland. They spent their first night in St. Gallen. Marton did not return to Cluj until 1968, having made a vow never to go back there, and she regretted it when she did visit in 1968. Marton still keeps in touch with friends from Cluj. In response to a question from Lanzmann Marton says that she still lives with the guilt of being one of those who survived, although her husband, being a fatalist, did not feel guilty. FILM ID 3156 -- Camera Rolls #20-21 -- 09:00:00 to 09:17:10 Marton knew Kazstner for many years before the Holocaust, and she thinks that the Kazstner trial was one of the most terrible things she has seen since coming to Israel. [CLIP 8 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks her whether she thinks that perhaps Kazstner went too far, and Marton says no. Marton says that in Israel she feels like she can never be hunted down again. Lanzmann asks her why she has had tears in eyes throughout the interview. Marton says it is a problem with her eyes but that sometimes she is crying real tears, especially since the death of her husband. The camera focuses on a portrait of Marton's husband. FILM ID 3157 -- Camera Rolls #5A,1A-B,21A-C,19A,9A-B,13A-C,15A,18A-B -- 10:00:00 to 10:14:03 No audio. Panning shots around Marton's living room, including books and art. Marton looks through her husband's diary. Lanzmann sits across from her while she reads. Shots of Lanzmann as he listens to Marton speak (she is not in the frame). Close-ups of Marton and of the diary.

    Hermann Landau

    Hermann Landau

    Film

    Hermann Landau talks about the rescue work of Rabbi Weissmandel, as well as rescue efforts based in Switzerland and the U.S. He describes Weissmandel as an increasingly desperate man who would not hesitate to bribe the Nazis or commit violence if it would help the Jews. FILM ID 3144 -- Camera Rolls #143-146 Lanzmann asks Landau about his first meeting with Rabbi Weissmandel in Switzerland immediately after the war. Weissmandel was enraged with those who did not do more to help the Jews, including Landau, whom he physically attacked when they met. They discuss how Weissmandel jumped from the train bound for Auschwitz, leaving behind his wife and children. While in Switzerland Weissmandel took an entire bottle of sleeping pills and was in a coma for several days. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Landau talks about Weissmandel's dealings with Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann's deputy. Landau reads from one of Weissmandel's passionate letters about what is happening to the Jews, in which he implores people to send money. They discuss Weissmandel's "Europa Plan." Landau says that they knew, from Weissmandel and from other sources, that the Jews were being exterminated, and that they believed with Weissmandel that money could save some Jews. 01:21 Film clapboard with ident. Roll NY 146. Landau says that at first Weissmandel's approach to rescuing the Jews was nonviolent but that by the end of May 1944, when the Hungarian Jews were being deported, he had changed his mind and wanted the tracks leading to Auschwitz bombed [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Landau mentions that he (Landau) was a member of the Judenrat in Belgium until 1942, when he escaped to Switzerland. He says of course it was wrong for the Judenrat to give lists of Jews to the Germans but that's what they did. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Landau reads another letter from Weissmandel. FILM ID 3145 -- Camera Rolls #147,148,150,152 Landau explains the meaning of Kiddush Hashem. Lanzmann asks whether any of the recipients of Weissmandel's letters put in the amount of effort that he was requesting toward the rescue of the Jews. Landau says that a couple called the Sternbuchs, who worked for the Vaad Hatzala, worked day and night on rescue efforts, including on the Sabbath. Landau reads some of the strongly-worded cables the Sternbuchs sent to New York. Landau gives some reasons why the American Jews did not give more money to save the European Jews. He says that many of the organizations involved in relief work did not understand that they must use any means necessary [CLIP 2 ENDS]. 02:22:30 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Landau talks about the history of the Vaad Hatzala. He says it began as an orthodox organization to save the yeshivas in Eastern Europe and they in fact helped get members of many yeshivas in Lithuania visas to Shanghai via Russia. Vaad Hatzala later worked on rescuing all Jews, not just the orthodox. FILM ID 3146 -- Camera Rolls #154-158 Landau describes Weissmandel's work with Gisi Fleischmann, who as a woman and a leftist was altogether different from Weissmandel [CLIP 3 ENDS]. He describes Weissmandel's coded cables, with instructions to bomb certain cities, and the negative answers these demands received when they were transmitted to the Allies. Landau says that after the war Weissmandel still had hope that his wife and children had survived Auschwitz. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] He reads from a letter that was sent to Sternbuch by a relative from Warsaw and deciphers its coded contents for Lanzmann, as an example of how people had to communicate at the time. Landau talks about buying passports for people, which were sent to the ghettos or internment camps [CLIP 4 ENDS]. FILM ID 3147 -- Camera Rolls #149,151,159 -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:40 Mute. Landau praying at synagogue and looking through documents with Lanzmann. CUs of a diary in Hebrew and telegrams.

    Jan Karski

    Jan Karski

    Film

    Jan Karski tells of his capture and torture by the Gestapo when he was a courier for the Polish underground. He also describes his clandestine visit to the Warsaw ghetto and his meeting with Szmul Zygielbojm, six months before Zygelbojm's suicide. See pages 491 - 494 of the English translation of Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare (March 2012) for a description of his interactions with Karski after filming this interview. FILM ID 3133 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:33 to 01:32:10 Karski tells of his first missions as a courier for the Polish Government in Exile. [No visual until 01:01:56] He was caught by the SS with an incriminating roll of film and beaten severely. The SS soldier told him that he wanted to get in touch with the Polish underground, but Karski did not reveal any information to him. Karski cut both of his wrists and was transported to various hospitals under the supervision of the Gestapo. With help, Karski escaped from a hospital in Warsaw and after a period of recuperation went to Krakow in 1940. In 1942, he resumed his service as a courier and met with major political parties to deliver messages from the delegates of the Polish Government. He explains that the messages were never written down, but were either memorized or on microfilm. Karski was contacted by representatives of the Jewish underground, who he refers to as the Bund leader (Leon Feiner) and the Zionist leader (Bermann), and met with them in a house near but not in the ghetto. In a manner that Karski describes as desperate, the two leaders asked Karski to take messages to London about the extermination of the Jews. Karski was asked to tell the exiled Polish president to contact the Pope. He was also told not to contact non-Polish Jewish leaders in London because they might become too alarmed and "complicate" matters. FILM ID 3134 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 02:00:05 to 02:35:47 The Jewish leaders wanted Karski to go to other government officials with messages. They wanted the Allied governments to publicly announce that they would deal with the problem of the extermination of the Jews and to drop leaflets over the German population, telling them that the Germans would be held responsible. Karski was also asked to take messages to certain Jewish members of the exiled Polish government, including Szmul Zygielbojm and Dr. Schwarzbald of the National Council and Dr. Leon Grossfeld of the Polish Socialist Party. The two representatives made it clear that he was not to relay the message to any non-Polish Jewish leader because they feared that it would fuel anti-Polish propaganda. Karski discusses the frustration of Feiner and Bermann that the Home Army refused to supply Polish Jews with weapons. Lanzmann and Karski discuss whether this proves that these two representatives anticipated the Warsaw ghetto uprising. FILM ID 3135 -- Camera Rolls #11,12,6,11A,32 -- 03:00:04 to 03:07:48 Lanzmann asks Karski how his visit to the ghetto came about. Karski says that it was the Bund leader's idea that if Karski saw the situation with his own eyes, it would strengthen his position when he went to London. Karski says that he and Feiner had no problem entering the ghetto through a tunnel. A brief shot of Karski's wife and then a long shot of Lanzmann with no sound. FILM ID 3136 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 04:00:09 to 04:33:01 In November 1942, Karski visited Belzec disguised as an Estonian auxiliary. His trip was organized by the Bund leader and the Jewish underground. Karski describes the brutal treatment of Jews as they were loaded onto trucks, either to be taken to Sobibor or left to die on the trucks. Karski says that at the time, Belzec seemed to function as a transitional camp. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Karski to go into more detail about what he saw at Belzec [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3137 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 05:00:08 to 05:18:45 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Karski talks about watching Jews being pushed onto the trains at Belzec. He describes what he saw as, "a crowd which had many heads, legs, many arms, many eyes, but it was something like a collective, pulsating, moving, shouting body." Karski and Lanzmann talk about the use of quicklime in the trains again. [CLIP 2 ENDS] No sound from 05:11:20 until 05:14:48. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Karski left the camp in a state of shock [CLIP 3 ENDS]. FILM ID 3138 -- Camera Rolls #19,19A,20,20A -- 06:00:01 to 06:21:07 Karski talks about his trip to London in late November, focusing on his meeting with Zygielbojm. Zygielbojm was aggressive with Karski and rude to him. Karski felt that the man was "disintegrating minute by minute." FILM ID 3139 -- Camera Rolls #21,21A,22 -- 07:00:07 to 07:17:16 Karski describes how Zygielbojm went into a rage after he delivered his report to him. Camera focused on Lanzmann, no sound. Lanzmann asks Karski if he thinks his report contributed to Zygielbojm's suicide six months later. Karski says that he believes that the total helplessness of the Jews and the indifference of the world to the Jewish situation contributed to Zygielbojm's death. He says that while he never mentions to his students his own experiences in the Warsaw ghetto and in Belzec, he always tells them about Zygielbojm. FILM ID 3140 -- Camera Rolls #23-24 -- 08:00:02 to 08:17:34 Lanzmann asks Karski to whom specifically he reported his news about the destruction of the Jews, and what were the reactions. He tells of being sent to Washington from London and of a meeting with Roosevelt. Karski first told Roosevelt that the Polish nation was depending on him to deliver them from the Germans. Karski said to Roosevelt, "All hope, Mr. President, has been placed by the Polish nation in the hands of Franklin Delano Roosevelt." FILM ID 3141 -- Camera Rolls #25-28 -- 09:00:11 to 09:33:07 Karski says that he told President Roosevelt about Belzec and the desperate situation of the Jews. Roosevelt concentrated his questions and remarks entirely on Poland and did not ask one question about the Jews. Soon after his meeting with the President, Karski received a message from FDR with a list of several people with whom Karski should speak. One of the people that the President recommended was Justice Felix Frankfurter of the Supreme Court, who came to see Karski in the Polish embassy. Frankfurter listened to his report and said that he did not, could not believe Karski's report. Karski was interviewed by Lord Selborne who was in charge of the European underground movement of the British government. Selborne told him that he knew that Karski's story wasn't true, but that it was good for propaganda purposes, just as it was necessary in World War I to use atrocity stories against the Germans. FILM ID 3142 -- Camera Rolls #29-31 -- 10:00:07 to 10:21:00 Karski talks about his interactions with the other people to whom he reported. Lanzmann asks Karski whether the people he gave his report to in Washington could truly grasp what was happening in places like Belzec. Karski replies that he doesn't think so. Karski says that what happened to the Jews is not comparable to any other event in history. FILM ID 3143 -- Camera Rolls #33-35,34,36 -- 11:00:07 to 11:12:30 Karski shows Lanzmann a book with clippings of articles written by him or about him. Karski explains that he could no longer work as a courier or return to Poland because he was too recognizable. Instead, he gave lectures and wrote articles and a book about what was happening to the Jews. In spite of this, Karski says, "Hitler won his war." Close up of Karski as he flips through the pages of the scrapbook.

    Leib Garfunkel - Ghetto Kovno

    Leib Garfunkel - Ghetto Kovno

    Film

    Leib Garfunkel describes the Kovno ghetto, where he was vice-chairman of the Jewish council, and the Aktion of October 1941, during which 9,200 Jews were murdered at the Ninth Fort. This was the first interview that Lanzmann conducted for Shoah and Garfunkel died one week after it was filmed. FILM ID 3125 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:18 to 01:21:29 No sound until 01:05:32. Irena Steinfeldt, Lanzmann's assistant, reads passages from Garfunkel's book. Garfunkel talks about the first meeting between the Kovno Gestapo and representatives of the Jewish population. He tells of the Germans entering Kovno and the two large pogroms where between 5000 and 6000 Jews were killed. Garfunkel speaks about his dealings with Franz Stahlecker, commander of Einsatzgruppe A, who promised that nothing would happen to the Jews once they were concentrated in the ghetto. There is no sound starting at 01:17:41 through the end of the tape. FILM ID 3126 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:10 to 02:22:54 Garfunkel describes the ghettoization process and the difficulties associated with moving 30,000 people into the ghetto. He explains that some Jews gave up their valuables to the Germans and the Lithuanian collaborators because they hoped that they could buy their freedom this way. Part of the dialogue is inaudible. Irena Steinfeldt reads a passage from Garfunkel's book about the creation of the Judenrat and the dramatic election of Dr. Elkhanan Elkes as "Oberjude." FILM ID 3127 -- Camera Rolls #7,8,8/2 -- 03:00:05 to 03:22:24 Steinfeldt reads a moving letter written by Dr. Elkes to two of his children living in England. Garfunkel talks of the danger of having a radio in the ghetto but says that the Jews managed to get news despite their isolation. For example, the Jews in the ghetto knew about the fall of Mussolini, but had to hide their excitement so that the Germans would not become suspicious. Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the distribution of Lebensscheine, [life certificates] to the artisans of the ghetto. The Germans intended to clear the ghetto of all but 5,000 skilled Jews. FILM ID 3128 -- Camera Rolls #9-12 -- 04:00:04 to 04:22:53 Garfunkel describes the hysteria that broke out in the ghetto as Jews, desperate for the Lebensscheine that could potentially spare them from death, stormed the offices of the Jewish Council. The action to separate those who had Lebensscheine from those who did not was canceled at the last moment when a German officer from town arrived with the message to call off the operation. Garfunkel talks about the impossible decision that many Jews in the ghetto faced: who should be saved. He likens the situation to being a "captain on a sinking ship." Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the arrival of Helmut Rauca of the Kovno Gestapo, who ordered the entire ghetto population to assemble on the square. The members of the Jewish Council agonized over whether to relay the order to the Jews of the ghetto but ultimately they decided to follow the Germans' orders. Lanzmann questions how the Jews could have followed such an order. Garfunkel says that perhaps some Jews hoped that the Lord would have mercy on them and perform a miracle at the last moment. FILM ID 3129 -- Camera Rolls #13-16,19-20 -- 05:00:10 to 05:29:05 Garfunkel says that a characteristic of Jews is to try to save what can be saved and to maintain hope up until the very last minute. Lanzmann asks whether there were many suicides in the ghetto and Garfunkel answers that there were very few cases. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Irena Steinfeldt to read Garfunkel's description of the big Aktion of October 28-29, 1941 where 9,200 Jews were sent to the Ninth Fort to be killed. All of the residents of the ghetto had to pass by Rauca so he could decide who would live and who would die. In the confusion, some Jews who were chosen by Rauca to go to the "good" side, ended up on the "bad" side [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs together. FILM ID 3130 -- Camera Rolls #17-18 -- 06:00:06 to 06:03:52 Garfunkel and his wife sit on a balcony. A brief shot of Lanzmann and Irena Steinfeldt walking away from the camera. FILM ID 3131 -- Camera Roll #21 -- 07:00:04 to 07:04:50 Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs. Close-ups of each photograph. The first two pictures show victims of a pogrom. Dead bodies are scattered on the ground while soldiers and civilians stand around and observe the damage (probably Lietukus Garage massacre). The third picture shows a wide angle view of a pogrom. Garfunkel points out that there are only men in this scene. The next photograph shows members of the Judenrat, including Dr. Elkes. The next picture is of a street scene in the ghetto(?). The following photograph shows people being loaded into a truck after a selection process. In another photograph, Garfunkel points out the Jewish stars sewn to the backs of peoples' coats. The last picture shows members of the Jewish ghetto orchestra. Garfunkel says that Stuffel, one of the members of the orchestra, survived the war and later played in a ghetto survivors' orchestra. FILM ID 3132 -- Camera Roll #21A Medium close-up: the camera is first focused on Lanzmann, then Steinfeldt. Close-up of Steinfeldt as she skims through Garfunkel's book, which is written in Hebrew. The camera pans to a desk with photographs on it. No sound.

    Siegmunt Forst

    Siegmunt Forst

    Film

    Siegmunt Forst escaped Vienna and moved to New York after the war broke out. He talks about his dealings with Rabbi Michael Weissmandel, a Slovakian Jew who tried desperately to tell the world what was happening to the European Jews. Weissmandel begged American Jewish leaders and others for money with which to bribe the Nazis. Lanzmann is interested in the individual and collective choices about whether to resist and/or to rescue, and in this interview and others he clearly views Weissmandel as an important figure. FILM ID 3119 -- Camera Rolls #12,14,15,17 -- 01:00:02 to 01:38:00 Lanzmann asks Forst about when he first met Rabbi Michael Weissmandel. Forst explains that he did some calligraphy for a book that Weissmandel was publishing. He describes Weissmandel at length. Rabbi Weissmandel saw as early as 1938 that Hitler would take over Europe. He met with the Archbishop of Canterbury several times and tried to convince him to use his contacts with the Canadian government to allow Jews to emigrate there. Forst, a Viennese Jew, moved to New York shortly before the war broke out. As events in Europe progressed, letters and appeals for money from Weissmandel were read aloud in Forst's synagogue. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Forst met Weissmandel again after the war when the rabbi came to Williamsburg. He was a completely broken man. Forst visited Weissmandel, who told him story after story about his experiences, which Forst found overwhelming. As an example, Forst tells the story of when Weissmandel jumped out of a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Forst mentions that six months before his deportation Weissmandel publicized plans of Auschwitz that he obtained from two escapees. Forst further describes Weissmandel's manner when he met him after the war. Weissmandel saw Forst as a representative of those people who knew what was happening to the Jews, but simply went about their own business and did nothing. Forst says that Weissmandel halted the transports for many months with promises of money to the Nazis. He says that Weissmandel was the old-fashioned type of Jew who existed by bribing non-Jews and who knew that physical resistance was not possible [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3120 -- Camera Rolls #18,19,21,22 -- 02:00:02 to 02:30:58 Lanzmann asks Forst to return to the fact that Weissmandel saved himself and left his family behind. Forst says that this is the essence of Weissmandel's heroism. His natural drive would have been to go to his death with his family and he did the opposite. Lanzmann and Forst discuss this idea of heroism and its relationship to Judaism. Forst talks about Weissmandel's actions during the war. He mentions his dealings with Wisliceny and efforts which resulted in the delay of transports. Weissmandel thought that bribing the Nazis was the only way to save the Jews. At Lanzmann's urging, Forst revisits the subject of Weissmandel's mental condition after the war. He talks about how Weissmandel would go to the Bowery neighborhood where there were derelicts and people who lived on the street. Forst says, "Everybody who was outside this order attracted him, because he himself was outside this order." He describes a meeting between Weissmandel and Stephen Wise. FILM ID 3121 -- Camera Rolls #23,24,26 -- 03:00:03 to 03:32:04 Forst talks about the meeting between Weissmandel and Steven Wise, president of the World Jewish Congress. Forst says that Weissmandel did not trust assimilationist or "non-authentic" Jews like Wise and Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) in Switzerland. Lanzmann and Forst talk about the assimilationist American approach to helping the Jews, which differed greatly from Weissmandel's efforts to bribe the Nazis and save Jews at any cost. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Forst to explain the Europaplan, Weissmandel's plan to save the European Jews with bribes. Weissmandel presented his plan to Dieter Wisliceny who did not think the plan was feasible. Forst mentions the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the Nazis' obsession with "international Jewry." Weissmandel tried to use the Nazis' fantasies of world Jewish conspiracy against them. Forst turns to Weissmandel's relations with the Catholic Church [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Weissmandel, hoping for help from the Vatican, went to the bishop of Nitra (Weissmandel's hometown), who told him that there is no such thing as innocent Jewish blood because the Jews killed Christ. He also went to the Papal Nuncio but did not receive help from him either. FILM ID 3122 -- Camera Rolls #27-30 -- 04:00:04 to 04:32:22 Forst talks about the Yeshiva of Nitra, which operated underground during the war. Rabbi Weissmandel built another Yeshiva in Mount Kisko, New York after the war and the first students were sixty young survivors. Forst gives a number of examples of how Weissmandel devoted himself to helping people after the war. Forst and Lanzmann talk about the historical reasons for Christianity's enmity toward the Jews. Lanzmann asks about Weissmandel's opinion of Zionism and whether this opinion was changed by the Holocaust. FILM ID 3123 -- Camera Rolls #31,34-38 -- 05:00:06 to 05:29:10 Forst talks about how both Germans and Jews have tried to forget the past. In German, this process of coming to terms with the past is called Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung. Forst says that because Weissmandel was a living reminder of this past, he was unpopular. Forst speculates about why the Jews did not physically resist when facing the gas chamber. He talks about the differences between how religious and non-religious Jews viewed the Holocaust and states, "The religious Jew doesn't question God, he questions man." Forst tells the story of Weissmandel's visits to the Bishop of Nitra and the Papal Nuncio in more detail. FILM ID 3124 -- Camera Rolls #13,16,33 -- 06:00:02 to 06:04:59 Various clips including: Close-ups of Forst, a sketch of Forst (?) hanging on the wall, and photographs of Weissmandel and Forst (?) FILM ID 3823 – Camera Rolls NY 32,33 -- photos Weissmandel [32M,25M] Silent shots of photos of Weissmandel in the home of Forst. Two caricature drawings, CUs. 02:31 Bob. 215 (NY 25). Forst smoking, silent shots.

    Ruth Elias - Theresienstadt, Auschwitz

    Ruth Elias - Theresienstadt, Auschwitz

    Film

    Ruth Elias was a Czech Jew who was sent with her family to Theresienstadt, where she became pregnant. She managed to hide her condition in Auschwitz but was eventually discovered and she and her baby were experimented upon by Mengele. She speaks of these experiences and of her solidarity with other women prisoners. FILM ID 3112 -- Camera Rolls #1-2 -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:46 Ruth Elias tells of her early life growing up in Czechoslovakia. She describes the Germans entering Czechoslovakia in 1939. The foreman of her father's factory immediately seized it from him and the family lost their flat. Her father avoided being sent to Nisko and they lived in hiding in the countryside. On 4 April 1942 they were caught and sent to Theresienstadt, where she was housed in a large room in the Hamburger Kaserne with many other women. FILM ID 3113 -- Camera Rolls #3-4 -- 02:00:13 to 02:10:53 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Seven days after arrival her entire family was summoned for a transport but she became ill and could not go. Her father insisted that she go, so she married her boyfriend in order to stay. The rest of her family went on the transport and she never saw them again [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3114 -- Camera Rolls #5-9A -- 03:00:12 to 03:33:50 She became a trainee nurse and her husband joined the Ghettowache. Lanzmann asks her about the experience of the elderly in Theresienstadt. She received a card from her father saying that her mother had been shot before his eyes. She was hungry all the time and decided to leave nursing to become a cook so that she could be near food. She and the others sang in the kitchen as they worked. FILM ID 3115 -- Camera Roll #10 -- 04:00:14 to 04:11:15 She demonstrates for Lanzmann one of the songs they used to sing, and accompanies herself on the accordian. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] She says that she was able to live with her husband and another couple and in the summer of 1943 she became pregnant. She tried to have an abortion but it had recently been officially forbidden by the Germans [CLIP 2 ENDS]. FILM ID 3116 -- Camera Rolls #11-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:19:10 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] She and her husband were deported to Auschwitz in December 1943. She describes the rail journey, arrival at Auschwitz, the work and the food. She and her husband were in the Czech Familienlager. They learned from other prisoners that people were being killed at Auschwitz but they didn't want to believe it. In March 1944 an entire transport of people was removed from the Familienlager and gassed. She talks about the orchestra in Block 6 [CLIP 3 ENDS]. FILM ID 3117 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:16 to 06:33:43 [CLIP 4 BEGINS] She was transported from the Familienlager to the Frauenlager, and when she was eight months pregnant managed to survive a selection by Mengele by hiding behind other girls. She was sent to Hamburg to work cleaning debris at a bombed oil refinery. When it was discovered that she was pregnant she was sent to Ravensbrueck. She and another pregnant woman were then sent back to Auschwitz [CLIP 4 ENDS] [CLIP 5 BEGINS] but they manage to remove the yellow triangles from their clothing and pose as Czech political prisoners upon their return to the camp. The two pregnant women come to the attention of Mengele. Elias describes Mengele as an attractive and polite man, of whom she was very frightened. Once her baby girl is born he orders that her breasts be bound to prevent her from breastfeeding, so that he can see how long a baby can live without food. Her baby cried and became weaker for several days until Mengele came and told her that the next day he would come for both of them. She knew she was to be gassed [CLIP 5 ENDS]. FILM ID 3118 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 07:00:10 to 07:36:56 [CLIP 6 BEGINS] A woman doctor brought her a needle filled with morphine and told her to inject the baby with it, thinking that if the baby died Elias would be allowed to live. She injected the baby and Mengele sent her on the next transport to forced labor near Leipzig. At this camp she manages to consistently steal bread for herself and the other women. In early 1945 the Lagerfuehrer discovers that she can sing and orders her to organize a variety program in order to take the Germans' minds off the constant Allied bombing. It was during the rehearsals for this program that Ruth met her current husband, Kurt Elias [CLIP 6 ENDS]. [CLIP 7 BEGINS] They were liberated by the Americans and after the war she returned to Czechoslovakia and discoverd that none of her family members survived. She went into a deep depression and spent time in a sanatorium but eventually regained the will to live. In 1965 she located the woman who saved her life, the Jewish doctor who gave her the injection for her child. She remains very close to this woman today. She says that when her first boy was born she panicked when they came to take him away, thinking they would kill him. Nobody understood or wanted to understand what the survivors had been through at that time [CLIP 7 ENDS]. She ends the interview by talking about her love for Israel.

    Hansi Brand

    Hansi Brand

    Film

    Hansi Brand and her husband Joel were members of the Relief and Rescue Committee of Budapest, Hungary, as was Rudolf Kasztner. Brand details her husband's experiences with Eichmann and the "Blood for Goods" rescue scheme. She also addresses the controversy over whether Kasztner neglected to warn the Jews of their fates. She states emphatically that by 1944, of course, everyone knew what it meant to be deported to the East. FILM ID 3109 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:00 to 01:34:28 For the first part of the interview Hansi Brand speaks Hebrew and Lanzmann English, with the aid of a translator. Lanzmann asks Hansi Brand why she has agreed to talk to him now, when in the past she has refused. She says that her memories oppress her and that people today cannot understand what they [survivors] experienced. He asks her to give her impressions of the personalities of the members of the Relief and Rescue Committee of Budapest, namely Joel Brand (Hansi's husband) and Rezso Kasztner (his name is written various ways, often as Rudolf Kastner). She lists several members of the committee and their pre-war occupations as well as the personal circumstances that led them to get involved in rescue work. (01:13:46 no picture.) She describes how they found out about the killings in Kamenets-Podolsk from her sister and brother-in-law. This was the catalyst for them to begin to act. She says that both she and Joel were Zionists and were awaiting their certificates to emigrate to Palestine, although Hungarian Jewry was still living under the impression that the horrible things that were happening in Germany and Poland would not reach them. (01:23:19 picture returns.) When the Germans entered Hungary in 1944 it changed their lives completely. It was clear that the Germans were losing the war and the Committee's main focus became helping Jewish "refugees" in Hungarian towns through negotiations and payments to the Germans. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Brand says that one day her husband received a summons to meet Eichmann, who said proudly that he now intended to carry out in Hungary what he had already accomplished in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Eichmann then mooted the "Blut fuer Waren" (Blood for Goods) scheme and told Joel that 10,000 Jews could be saved for every truck procured for the Germans by the Committee. Joel was shocked at the suggestion and told Eichmann he must discuss it with the other members of the Committee. Although the idea was macabre, the Committee felt forced to consider it. 01:29:57 (Camera Roll 5) Lanzmann and Brand begin speaking directly to each other in German, without the translator. Brand says that the members of the Committee considered the idea all night long. They knew they must do something to try to rescue those Jews who remained alive, after 5,000,000 had already been murdered. It was clear to them that the Germans themselves knew they were losing the war. Some, like Eichmann, wanted to profit personally [and for Germany?] but others wanted to save their own lives, knowing that they would be held responsible for their actions after the war. The Committee decided that Joel should travel to Istanbul, as suggested by Eichmann. Lanzmann asks whether Joel wanted to go and Brand says it is not as simple as that he "wanted" to go. Bandi Grosz, another Hungarian Jew (Brand refers to him as Grosz Bandi), had his own mission: to meet with the American ambassador in Turkey [Laurence] Steinhart. She says that the Germans chose Joel and Bandi Grosz to go on the mission [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3110 -- Camera Rolls #6-8 -- 02:00:05 to 02:33:35 Lanzman says that people have suggested that Joel Brand was not the best man for the mission to Istanbul, and asks whether there was a rivalry between Joel Brand and Kasztner. Hansi Brand says not at first, but that Kasztner did want to go to Istanbul, as did Kasztner's father-in-law. She says that in her opinion success would not have been achieved no matter who went to Istanbul. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Brand herself stayed in Budapest with her two children, serving as hostages. She took Joel's place as a representative to the Germans, although certain committee members disapproved of a woman in this position. She explains that one could not tremble before the Germans or show fear but instead act as if you were an actual partner in the negotiations. She says that her husband took her to meet Eichmann before he went to Istanbul, which surprises Lanzmann because Kasztner did not mention this fact. Lanzmann asks her to describe exactly the meeting with Eichmann. She says that the apartment (in a hotel) that Eichmann was using as his headquarters was the same apartment that she and Joel had lived in up until a few months previously. Eichmann told her that she would be required to contact him every day while Joel was in Istanbul. Hansi Brand decided to take Kasztner to Eichmann, which was the beginning of the negotiations to bring the Jews from the provinces (Cluj and, as she insists, other places) to Budapest. Lanzmann asks what they knew about Auschwitz at that time and how they heard the news. Brand says they knew quite a lot, they had reports that came to them from Weissmandel, Gisi Fleischmann and Vrba (she does not remember him by name), and that they did what they could to get the news out. She says that Eichmann told her husband that he should hurry on his mission to Istanbul, because 12,000 Jews per day were taken to Auschwitz. Lanzmann questions Hansi Brand about the highly controversial rescue mission, the Kasztner Train (Lanzmann does not use this term), especially about the "privileged" nature of the transport and the 388 passengers from Cluj, Kasztner's home town. Brand says that she and Kazstner met often with Eichmann. She talks about how they felt when they met with him and how Eichmann's mood influenced the negotiations. The discussions were very difficult and sometimes Eichmann would shout at them that they should not imagine he actually cared about the Jews [CLIP 2 ENDS]. 02:22:34 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann says that Kasztner is sometimes criticized for not warning the Jews in Cluj, for example, about what would happen to them in Auschwitz. Hansi Brand says that is the most evil lie and gives examples of Jewish leaders from Cluj (she uses the German name of the town, Klausenburg) who knew quite well what Auschwitz meant. Lanzmann says that some people from Cluj who survived Auschwitz later complained that they were not told what it meant to be sent to the camp. Hansi Brand says that many people did not want to know that the Jews were being exterminated. She finds it impossible that anyone could not know by 1944 what was happening in German-occupied areas. She talks about the postwar Kasztner trial, in which Judge Benjamin Halevi believed the witnesses against Kasztner [CLIP 3 ENDS]. They continue to talk about how much information was or should have been given to the Jews of Cluj. FILM ID 3111 -- Camera Rolls #9-13 -- 03:00:00 to 03:34:07 [CLIP 4 BEGINS] In answer to a question from Lanzmann, Hansi Brand attempts to describe her emotional and mental state knowing that 12,000 Jews were being sent to Auschwitz every day and that she and Kasztner were negotiating with Eichmann in an attempt to save some small number of Jews. She says that they were always between fear and doubt and hope. He asks her to describe how it was possible to discuss the matter with Eichmann from a business standpoint when they knew what was happening to the Jews in the meantime. She says they had no other way out and, in addtion, she and Kasztner were arrested during this time by the Hungarian Abwehr (?), who wanted information about Joel's mission. She was beaten but did not reveal anything and was eventually released on a direct order from Himmler. After she was released she was brought to [Gerhard] Clages, Himmler's chief of security in Budapest. [CLIP 4 ENDS] The last few seconds of this camera roll has sound but no video. 03:11:31 Lanzmann asks Hansi Brand to return to the question of the burden on her soul (seelische Belastung) caused by negotiations with Eichmann. Lanzmann reads two quotations from the "Kasztner Report, " in which Kasztner expresses a kind of guilt for negotiating with Eichmann, and asks for Hansi Brand's reaction. She says that he wrote this after the war, and that they did not only rely on the Germans but took other measures such as preparing bunkers and making false papers. [CLIP 5 BEGINS] She says that the "Blood for Goods" deal would have worked if they could have procured the goods from other countries. They circle back to the question of whether Kasztner should have informed the Cluj Jews of imminent danger and Lanzmann asks what Hansi Brand thinks of the accusation that Kasztner saved certain people from Cluj (his own family and Zionists). She says that she would ask him what he would have done, whether Lanzmann would have acted for his own family? Lanzmann says, "That is a very good answer." Brand says that Kasztner would not have been human otherwise. Lanzmann asks Brand to explain how people were chosen for the transport to Bergen-Belsen (the so-called Kasztner Train rescue mission). She says that the types of people chosen varied greatly but included the most endangered refugees, Zionists, Jewish intellectuals, orphans, and rich people, whose wealth helped pay the $1,000 per-person ransom demanded by the Germans. Lanzmann asks if there were old people in the transport, and whether Kasztner was a vain man. She answers that Kasztner was as vain as any other person, that it is a human quality. Lanzmann asks why [Andreas] Biss (another member of the Committee) hated Joel Brand so much and Hansi Brand answers that it had something to do with [SS officer Kurt] Becher, whom Hansi and Joel Brand were "against" after the war, while Biss was "for" Becher (Kasztner testified on Becher's behalf after the war). Lanzmann continues to question Kasztner's character and Hansi Brand continues to defend him. He asks why she thinks her husband's mission to Istanbul did not succeed and she replies that the English did not want to help the Jews because they did not want to deal with the problem of Palestine. She says further that the Jews in Palestine were not informed as to what was happening. She ends the interview by defending her husband against historians who say that he did not return to Budapest out of fear for himself (Joel Brand was arrested by the British in Aleppo and eventually ended up in Palestine) [CLIP 5 ENDS] .

    Paula Biren

    Paula Biren

    Film

    Paula Biren was a young Jewish woman living in Łódź, Poland when the Germans invaded in 1939. She survived the Łódź ghetto and Auschwitz. In her interview with Claude Lanzmann, Biren describes the occupation of Łódź, ghettoization, the children's Aktion of September 1942, and her deportation to Auschwitz. FILM ID 3105 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 03:00:09 to (03:00:09) Biren and Lanzmann are seated outdoors. Lanzmann begins the interview by asking her to start at the beginning, the moment the Germans entered Łódź, what her feelings were, and if she knew at that time what would be at stake. She says that they knew that the city would be invaded but that it was a surprise anyway. The city had prepared for an invasion earlier that summer and Biren was part of a group that helped dig anti-tank ditches. She describes the blackouts and planes flying over the city as well as the general feeling of panic. (03:04:25) [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Biren if she had a premonition of the fate of the Jews. Biren says that they did have an idea because they listened to the radio broadcasts and knew what was happening to the Jews in Germany but that they hoped it wouldn't happen in Łódź. She talks about the antisemitism in Łódź, the surprise at the swift occupation of the city by the Germans, and the reaction of the city's Polish population once the Germans arrived. Biren notes the Polish reaction to the anti-Jewish decrees, the beatings of Jews, and the confiscation of Jewish property by their Polish neighbors. She recalls having to wear the yellow star and how she didn't want to wear it. She tells Lanzmann that the Germans could not identify who was and who was not Jewish, but that their Polish neighbors knew who the Jews were and often pointed them out to the Germans. Jews, particularly men, were publicly humiliated. She describes the beginning of food rationing and how Jews were pulled out of bread lines by the Germans and by Polish youth [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Sometimes the Poles were even worse than the Germans -- Biren says that she and a neighbor went to see a German commander and the commander ordered their Polish landlord to stop stealing from them. (03:15:00) Biren describes the formation of the ghetto. Part of the city, equal to a slum, was partitioned off to form the ghetto. She says that each person was allotted a certain number of square feet to live in. She herself was involved in the assignment of living space. (03:17:15) Lanzmann asks Biren if, even before the war, she felt connected or had a sense of belonging to the city's Jewish life. She replies that she felt very strongly both Jewish and Polish because this was the atmosphere in which she was raised. Her father was a secular Jew who worked for a Jewish newspaper and his family members were Bundists. (03:19:07) Biren describes the move into the ghetto. She tells Lanzmann that it was an awful and chaotic ordeal and that they could not accept the fact that it was happening. Many Jews went into hiding or fled to Russia during this period. Biren says that she snuck out of the city with a cousin of hers to go to Warsaw to visit her aunt. She thought that things might be better there because Warsaw was an "open city." After a break in the footage, Biren says that in order to get out of Łódź she hid her star under her shawl and tried to pass as a non-Jew. However, when they arrived in Warsaw they found out things were just as bad there and came back to Łódź. Her family of four moved from a large apartment to a small room in the ghetto. (03:25:02) Lanzmann asks her whether she had a feeling of solidarity with other Jews. Biren replies that there was no sense of community, that people tended to focus on their immediate families. She describes the function of the Judenrat before and after the arrival of the Germans. (03:28:21) Biren describes her parents as very strong people but states that it was very painful to see them during this period because they seemed so helpless and didn't know what to do any more than she did. She also says that she was mad at them because she thought they should have known what to do and that she felt trapped by her family ties. She could not have left Łódź and left them there. She says that they used sleds to move their belongings into the ghetto because of the heavy snow. It was a sad procession but they would see many more sad processions by the end of the war. FILM ID 3106 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 04:00:06 to (04:00:06) The interview has moved indoors. Biren talks about a Polish friend whose father had been captured by the Germans and probably killed. She states that Poles also suffered, but that the Gestapo would come and rob the Jews, how they were beaten, shamed, killed and how she witnessed people living in constant fear even to go into the streets. Lanzmann asks whether she thought the ghetto would protect her and she says that she did not feel this way. She had a fear of being killed which was overwhelming and always present. (04:02:47) [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Biren describes the organization of the ghetto and Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski's role. She did not know Rumkowski before she entered the ghetto. Rumkowski seemed to take his job in the Judenrat seriously. She says that at first they all made jokes about the idea of a Jewish state but soon realized the situation was serious. (04:05:05) Lanzmann asks her if she had felt that work meant survival and Biren says that she doesn't remember what she felt because she was so overwhelmed. She notes that the Germans used the confused state of the Jews as a weapon against them and that she didn't realize that people who were allegedly being sent to labor camps were in fact being sent to their deaths. Lanzmann asks her whether she knew at the time that people were being deported to their deaths. Biren says at first she didn't know, that she had suspicions, but by the end of 1941 or 1942 she knew. She says that by this time people were coming into Łódź from nearby small towns and that these people told them that people were being sent to Chelmno. (04:08:02) Lanzmann asks whether Rumkowski knew what was going on. Biren replies that she thinks he knew. Lanzmann disagrees with Biren and suggests that Rumkowski probably knew quite well what was actually happening. (04:08:39) They talk about the deportation of the children from Łódź. Biren says that the officials in charge told them that the children were being sent to a special camp to work. She says that this was the worst moment for her in the ghetto, when she heard the announcement that the children were to be deported. (04:09:52) Lanzmann asks Biren to describe Rumkowski's speeches. Megaphones were set up to broadcast them, and while it was not mandatory to listen, people were naturally curious and would come out to watch. When asked about the atmosphere at these speeches, Biren says that there was often silence and a sense of numbness at first, which then gave way to crying and lamenting. Lanzmann asks if they cried during Rumkowski's speeches and Biren says yes, because the speeches usually meant bad news. (04:13:09) Lanzmann asks Biren to describe Rumkowski's speech about the deportation of the children. Biren says that Rumkowski claimed to be agonized over the deportation, but he also said that the children would not be killed. Children under the age of nine were taken in September1942. Lanzmann asks her about the parents' reactions, and she says that overall they seemed to think it was a good thing, that the children would be better off. She herself had a sense of relief because her family didn't have any children that age so they would be safe. She says that she listened to some of the mothers and that at first they were upset but they eventually gave consent. She describes how a neighbor of hers, a woman from a little town outside Łódź, refused to give up her little girl. On the day of the deportation this woman told a German officer that she would not give up her child, that she would rather be shot. The German shot the woman and took the child [CLIP 3 ENDS]. (04:20:14) Biren describes the ghetto as "a tower of Babel." She describes how people came in and out of the ghetto. She often had direct contact with incoming transports because of her job distributiong living space. She says that many of the arriving German Jews were older, bewildered and unprepared, and they often ended up dying quickly in the ghetto. Biren talks further about the arrival of the foreign Jews and mutual perceptions between them and the ghetto inhabitants. (04:25:00) [CLIP 2 BEGINS] "It was like a zoo, it was animalistic. We lived, not a human life.... developed a numbness, a dreamlike state...the putting on of a shell. You hope you survive. You fight for survival." [CLIP 2 ENDS] (04:26:26) She describes the hunger and cold and how they had to make their own shoes from scraps. She says that their dignity was taken away. They were encircled by wire, the Germans were guarding them, and outside were the Poles who "didn't give a damn" about them. No one seemed to care about what happened to them. (04:28:00) They discuss the use of ghetto currency. Biren says that they used it because they were totally cut off from the outside world with or without the currency. She talks about food smuggling and how some were privileged, but those were the people who were largely involved in the Jewish government. Corruption was terrible in the ghetto and the privileged had a better chance to survive. Lanzmann asks how the corruption was felt by the people. Biren uses work as an example. She says that those who had influence could get jobs so it was a form of corruption. When women were compelled to work, she was able to get a job for her mother. (04:30:24) "The worst corruption was about life." Who would be deported, or not. Inevitably it was those without influence." FILM ID 3107 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 01:00:00 to 01:33:23 (01:00:00) Lanzmann asks if Biren considered herself privileged. She says that she was, in a way. She describes the establishment of a school by Rumkowski for the junior and senior classes, which she was part of. He was a strong Zionist and created the school with the aim of preparing the youth for life in Palestine. Biren was involved in one of the groups who worked on a farm inside the ghetto. She describes how they took over an abandoned orphanage and helped a Jewish farmer manage a farm. She lived there and went to school to learn how to raise crops, milk goats etc. (01:03:01) "It was a wonderful year." Biren says that she and the other students had enough to eat but were not allowed to take food back to their families. She felt guilty because her family was starving. She says that in her opinion Rumkowski cared for children. This school lasted for about a year before it closed in 1942. (01:07:14) Biren says that she had various jobs including work in a factory making German military raincoats. She describes this as a horrible experience because it was hard work, they had bad supervisors (Jewish tailors), and they worked day and night. She describes it as an angry, tense situation. This job was given to the girls but the boys had other kinds of jobs. There is a long, awkward silence during which Biren refuses to talk about the kind of work the men did and won't allow Lanzmann to say what it was. This is consistent with her stance throughout the interview of firmly refusing to speak about experiences that were not her own. (01:10:22) After her factory job, she was given a job in the women's police force organized by Rumkowski. As a side note Lanzmann says that the boys also had this type of job, but Biren, again, does not want to discuss this. She says the whole thing was comical, that it was her job to keep order in the street. Lanzmann asks what the purpose of a women's police force was. Biren says that it was to keep order, which was a problem because of the black market. It was her job to keep the moral order and keep the streets clear. When asked why women and not men did this job she says, "Don't ask me." Biren tells him that the chief of police was a Czech man and that she was an officer. She said that it was comical but she had to do the job so that she wouldn't be deported. She could not arrest people, just bring them into the police station. She also worked in the office in an administrative capacity. Some of the other girls rebelled and protested that the black market peddlers would be deported. She didn't like what she was doing but had to keep the job otherwise she would be deported. She notes that she didn't have the dilemma long because within a week the women's police force was disbanded. (01:19:41) Lanzmann asks her whether she knew the feelings of the men of the Jewish police, if they felt guilty. Biren says that she doesn't know because they didn't talk about feelings. Lanzmann tells her that he tried to get former Jewish policemen from Łódź to talk about their experiences but they would not. She says that she doesn't know why she herself couldn't talk about it until recently, maybe it was guilt that she had done something wrong, that she didn't do enough, that she is alive and her family is not. She says that she feels she delivered them to the Germans, to Auschwitz. At the time she didn't feel that she had a choice but now she thinks that she did. Lanzmann tells her that she didn't have a choice, that it was either work for the Germans or commit suicide. (01:26:--) Biren notes that after the war, when she and others did want to talk, no one wanted to hear. "I clammed up...wouldn't talk." (01:30:44) Lanzmann asks her if the police and Jewish administration enjoyed any privileges. She replies that she doesn't think it mattered but that she found it interesting that the people of Łódź, and the ghetto itself, were different from other places because it was the ghetto that was most cut off from the outside world, the most organized, and the longest lasting. She says that it also produced a higher degree of bitterness in survivors, and that there was no uprising in the Łódź ghetto. FILM ID 3108 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 02:00:10 to 02:27:47 (02:00:10) [CLIP 4 BEGINS] "We were talking about how I felt about the Judenrat [Jewish Council]." She says that she felt they were a tool for extermination because orders from the Germans came through them but that they were also a tool for survival and that's why the people of Łódź went along with them. "After all, the hope was, with orderly conduct..." But in the end, there was no choice. Circumstances didn't allow revolt. The Łódź ghetto was so hermetic. (02:02:56) Lanzmann questions her about the hangings she witnessed and she tells him that they were used as a tool of death, that they were deadly fear made public. "If we're talking about tools, that was the biggest tool the Germans used." Catch someone for something minor, and make the punishment public. People were forced to watch, from offices, etc. She notes that she saw hangings on at least two occasions. "That was the tool: death." [CLIP 4 ENDS] (02:04:06) Lanzmann asks if the hangman was a Jew, and she says yes, whether forced or a volunteer she does not know. (02:04:55) Lanzmann then asks her about the liquidation of the ghetto. She says that she was deported in August of 1944 when the order came for everyone to leave. [CLIP 5 BEGINS] When asked whether they went by consent or if they protested she says that she doesn't know, but that they went in a more or less orderly fashion. She says that the majority of the people generally felt that being transported to another camp would be good but that she personally felt that they would not survive. Biren says that Rumkowski made a list of people who would go to a special camp. Most of them were privileged people, and that all the graduates from his school were on this list, including her. She says that she asked her parents whether or not they should go and that they left the decision up to her. She decided that they would not go on this special transport. Instead she and her family tried to go into hiding but there was no place to hide. Only later, she says, did she learn that the transport went to Theresienstadt and that her family could possibly have survived if they had gone. She and her family were sent to Auschwitz [CLIP 5 ENDS]. She describes the immediate separation of her family at Auschwitz. Her mother went directly to the gas chamber and her father to a labor camp. She and her sister survived. (02:11:19) Lanzmann asks her about the streets in the ghetto. Biren describes them as being very clean, no corpses lying around or anything like that, just hunger and cleanliness. He asks her about a gravediggers' strike but she says that she doesn't remember much. (02:12:59) Biren talks about the sickness and the hunger, and says there was typhoid and dysentery in the ghetto but that it was always contained. Lanzmann asks her how it was possible to work all day when you are hungry and she replies that it was hard but that she was young. She says that at one point everyone had to work in order to buy food with the ghetto currency but that the black market still existed. Lanzmann asks her who organized the black market. She tells him that she doesn't know, but that it was probably those who worked at the food markets. There was bitterness towards those who were involved in the black-market. She says that camaraderie, love, and family were what kept one alive in the ghetto. (02:19:26) Lanzmann asks Biren if, in retrospect, she understands the Holocaust or whether it remains a mystery to her. She says that it remains a mystery because she doesn't understand what happened or even why the Poles didn't want her when she came back from Auschwitz. She notes that pogroms started a year after she came back to Łódź and says that was why she left. He then asks her what her feelings towards Europe are. She says that she couldn't wait to get out and that's why she left Poland. Biren tells him how she went to Germany and attended medical school while she waited for a visa, noting how the whole experience was very demoralizing. She also tells him how she visited Europe recently and felt she belonged there; she considers Europe her home and it is painful to feel like she has been banned. At the end of the interview she tells Lanzmann that she can't explain the Polish antisemitism after the war and after all she had been through, even though she did not experience the 1946 pogrom. She says that she had the hope that she would return to Łódź and be welcomed but that was not the case so she has never returned to Poland. She says that she doesn't understand how someone can be banned she doesn't know what her crime was that caused her to be banned from Poland.

    Ehud Avriel

    Ehud Avriel

    Film

    Ehud Avriel was born in Vienna and became active in escape and rescue operations after the Germans invaded. He continued this work once he reached Palestine in 1939. Avriel later held several positions in the Israeli government. FILM ID 3100 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:07 to 01:33:11 Roll 1 01:00:07 Ehud Avriel sits in a chair in front of a window overlooking the ocean, most likely in a hotel or office in Tel Aviv, Israel. Claude Lanzmann remains off camera while he asks Avriel questions about the missions he was involved in during the war. Avriel was part of a group of emissaries called the Haganah that worked to establish contact with Jews in ghettos and occupied countries in order to help them escape. He arrived in Istanbul in the winter of 1942-43. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Avriel worked with Danny Schind and lived with other Haganah members and their mission at that time was to organize the departure of boats from Bulgaria and Romania to bring Jews to safety in Turkey. It was very difficult and dangerous because telephones were unreliable and were able to be interfered. The Mossad was a part of the Haganah focused on emigration into Palestine. One of their greatest challenges was finding trustworthy people in hostile countries, though Bulgarians treated the Jews very well there was still a fear that they would betray them or the Gestapo would find out about these secret missions. 01:11:15 Roll 2 01:11:18 Another problem they faced once they were able to get the Jews out of Bulgaria was how they were going to try and get them into Turkey. Turkey wanted to remain as neutral as possible and feared allowing Jews into the country would alter this neutrality. For the Haganah it was a matter of convincing the Turkish government that these refugees would leave once the war was over. The challenge was trying to figure out a way to guarantee that the Jews would in fact leave. Once they were able to accomplish bringing the Jews into Turkey the next mission was to transport them illegally through Syria and Lebanon to Palestine. They were in constant talks with the British government about making the move to Palestine official. Lord Cranborne, the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in England at the time, released a statement which said that Jews who were able to get to Turkey on their own, without the help of any groups like the Mossad, would be granted access into Palestine. At the same time, Major Arthur Vitold contacted Mossad. Avriel reads from the letter that was sent from Vitold which stated that secretly he would allow Jews to go to Turkey and Palestine that had been assisted by Mossad. Publicly the British government acted very strict about the placement of Jews in Palestine, but secretly there was transit permission. 01:22:23 Roll 3 01:22:33 Upon learning this information the Haganah rushed to resume and maximize their mission. Lanzmann asks Avriel about how much of the extermination they were actually aware of at the time. Avriel states that they were completely aware that the Nazi's goal was to exterminate the Jewish population and that they had the capabilities to follow through. In the spring of 1943 they were aware of Auschwitz and Treblinka and other extermination camps. Though they were aware of the mission they never imagined the brutality of it such as the gas chambers. The Haganah had instant contact with the Jews in the ghettos as of the early 1940s, but it was difficult to penetrate the concentration camps. The mail they received was written in coded language, Jews would often use Hebrew words as names of people they were writing about in order to inform the Haganah of what was happening. 01:32:38 Roll 4 01:32:40 Avriel reads an example of a postcard they would receive. 01:33:11 FILM ID 3101 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:06 to 02:33:36 Roll 5 02:00:06 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Avriel sits indoors in Israel and reads a letter the Haganah received from a Jew in Warsaw, Poland. The letter reads pleasantly, but Avriel explains the code words that reveal it is a letter about the extermination of millions of Jews. CU of Avriel as he reads the letter. Avriel reads another letter from the Bedzin ghetto on the Polish/German border. It is from November 10, 1942 and sounds like a normal letter of correspondence, but the coded words reveal the description of certain people being brought to death camps and the hopelessness the author of the letter is feeling. Letters were sent by regular mail and though secret or double agents who worked for the Haganah and for the other side. Avriel discusses how close they were to the German embassy where Mr. von Papen was the ambassador. In order to continue their operation they had to pretend be employed with something else like newspaper correspondence and marmalade production. 02:11:21 Roll 6 02:11:24 Lanzmann asks Avriel about when he came to know about Joel Brand. Avriel states that after the Nazi occupation of Budapest in 1944 they received a telegram regarding Brand, but under an alias. They arrived in an official German government airplane without proper visas. In a meeting with all the emissaries from Palestine Joel Brand spoke of a meeting he had with SS Officer Eichmann in which Eichmann stated he would trade Jewish lives for goods such as trucks, soap, tea and coffee. While Avriel and the Haganah were in awe of Brand's presence they were also very confused about Eichmann's proposal, it was difficult for them to believe. 02:22:25 Roll 7 02:22:31 Avriel recounts what happened at the meeting after Joel Brand told of Eichmann's proposal. Bandy Gross pulled Avriel aside and told him that everything Brand said about Eichmann is actually a hoax. There was much confusion over who or what to believe. Joel Brand thought the Haganah in Istanbul was much more powerful than they actually were, it was difficult to explain to him that they did not have the resources or money or support to accomplish such an operation. Avriel says Brand had fallen for the Nazi belief of Jewish groups being all-powerful. Avriel understands the Nazi influence because he lived under the Nazis in Vienna in the late 1930s. 02:33:36 FILM ID 3102 -- Camera Rolls #8-11 -- 03:00:07 to 03:38:28 Roll 8 03:00:07 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Avriel sits indoors in Israel as he tells Lanzmann of when he lived in Vienna. He describes the power of Nazi propaganda and how he too fell victim to it during this time. He sympathizes with Joel Brand because he had no idea he was being tricked. Brand probably saw Istanbul as a country of freedom and that the Haganah was all powerful, able to have influence over Roosevelt and Churchill, when in fact none of this was true. Avriel and Danny Schindt were convinced that Brand's meeting with Eichmann was a German trick to use Jews as bait. The Haganah went to Vitold for help and Avriel believes he did everything he could to help them. Meanwhile Brand was attacking them for not acting fast enough saying that every hour they let pass ten thousand more people were dying. Brand was disappointed with their limitations. 03:12:45 Roll 9 03:12:47 Avriel says that Brand spoke like a Biblical prophet telling them they were not doing what they should. While they sit safe in Turkey ten thousand people were dying per hour. Avriel recounts how hard this was to listen to especially because they actually could not do anything quick enough or large enough to help those numbers of people. 03:16:09 Roll 10 03:16:13 Avriel says that Brand talked to them like he was going back to Hungary. His entire family was still there. Brand was very convincing because he seemed like a man who only spoke the truth. The Turks refused to allow Brand to stay in Istanbul, but he did not want to return to Hungary empty handed. Brand felt as though he had let his people down. They devised a plan to fabricate an interim accord document that stated that Brand had instructions from Chaim Weizmann. This plan was supposed to buy Brand more time when he returned to Budapest. 03:27:18 Roll 11 03:27:19 [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Avriel discussed how little they knew in 1944 and how much they had to speculate about Brand and Gross' intentions for their visit to Istanbul. They had theories about Himmler wanting to make contact with Eisenhower. Brand was so convinced that Eichmann was going to stick to his word and stop the deportation of Hungarian Jews. They had to convince Brand that Eichmann did not have the power to "stop the machine." Brand met with Shertock in order to further the fabrication that they had devised to buy Brand more time in Istanbul. 03:38:28 FILM ID 3103 -- Camera Rolls #12-15 -- 04:00:06 to 04:32:43 Roll 12 04:00:06 Avriel continues to discuss Joel Brand as he sits indoors in Israel. After they had all the information they could get from Brand it became about returning him safely. They knew he would never survive crossing a Nazi border on his way back to Hungary, so the Haganah decided to inform the British government with the hopes that they would be interested in saving or detaining Brand. Avriel wonders if what he speaks of is information he knew at the time or actually a combination with things he has learned since the war. He thinks Brand lost his courage and his will and that is why he did not bring the fabricated accord to the Nazis in Hungary. 04:11:13 Roll 13 04:11:15 [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Because Brand had lost his courage, Avriel and Barder decided to go to Budapest to continue negotiations with the Nazis. The entire mission was a mistake. Avriel and Brand travelled from Istanbul to Aleppo together. Brand disappeared at the end of the train ride. Later Avriel learned from Sharet that Brand was arrested. Lanzmann and Avriel then discuss Kasztner. The negative reel (picture) has ended and it is only audio until 04:25:41. Roll 14 04:25:42 Lanzmann questions Kasztner's integrity for testifying in favor of Becher in Nuremberg. Avriel explains why he believes it was an error in judgment and not an evil action. 04:28:44 Roll 15 04:28:46 Lanzmann is shocked by Itsak Gruenbaum's text which seems contradictory because while he was on a public committee to save the European Jews he was also placing Zionist edification above the rescue. Avriel disagrees that this was Gruenbaum's actual mindset and argues that even if it was it did not matter because he had no authority over the people. Avriel discloses that Gruenbaum's son was a Communist that collaborated with the Nazis. Avriel discusses how Gruenbaum was a politician and not an authority. 04:32:43 FILM ID 3104 -- Coupes -- 05:00:05 to 05:07:56 (Silent) 05:00:05 Claude Lanzmann sits in a chair and writes in a notebook. He smokes a cigarette and looks at the people off camera. CU of Lanzmann with his glasses on. He adjusts himself in his chair and listens intently to Avriel. CU of Lanzmann as he lights a cigarette. CU of Lanzmann as he writes. 05:06:07 CU of Lanzmann laying down. Camera zooms out to reveal Lanzmann lying in bed. Lanzmann, shirtless, sits in bed under the sheets and lights a cigarette. He is talking to someone off camera. The camera zooms in on his face while he smokes a cigarette. 05:07:56

    Gustaw Alef Bolkowiak - Warsaw

    Gustaw Alef Bolkowiak - Warsaw

    Film

    Gustaw Alef-Bolkowiak (Bolkoviac) addresses the tension between Polish and Jewish resistance movements and the question of Polish antisemitism. He talks about arms in the Warsaw ghetto, the Bund, the Zegota Council to aid the Jews of Poland, Poles who hid Jews, and Communist partisans. FILM ID 3373 -- Camera Rolls #1-4 -- 01:00:00 to 01:18:05 Note: There is no transcript for Rolls #1-4 (it is either nonexistent or missing). Lanzmann says he wants to talk about Bolkowiak's involvement as a leader of the Communist Resistance movement in the Warsaw ghetto and describes that he is particularly passionate about the details of the Judenrat that appear in the tv series "The Holocaust". He wants to know if Bolkowiak's opinions of the Judenrat and their role have changed since the war. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bolkowiak says that he knows the functioning of the Judenrat in Warsaw particularly well, and then goes on to describe the relationship between the Nazis and the Judenrat in the ghetto (Nazis, knowing full well that they would eventually liquidate the ghetto, still wanted to "play" with the Jewish people and have them pursue somewhat regular lives during their time there). He claims that the Judenrat was not a ruling party, but was rather an organization that existed solely to realize the objectives of the Nazi Party. It was a collaborationist and corrupt organization. Bolkowiak talks about why he saw the Judenrat as a primarily negative institution, but then goes on to mention several members of the "conseils" (of different sectors) who did all that they could for the people of the ghetto. He talks about one member of the Jewish police force who was also a member of Bolkowiak's organization "bloque anti-fasciste", though this was an unusual occurence. Lanzmann asks about the recruitment of the police officers in the ghetto and Bolkowiak explains that it is difficult to say that they all came from one social class. He says that most members of the police force were jurists, to which Lanzmann retorts "la justice et la police". Lanzmann asks about Bolkowiak's work with children in the ghetto. Bolkowiak explains that he worked with (rounded up, fed, gave a place to sleep) children who were orphaned or close to death, but that in the end, he and his colleagues only saved these children for a few months because they were all eventually deported. Bolkowiak says that while he was in the ghetto, he did all that he could to revolt against the control of the Judenrat. Bolkowiak begins to explain that once the deportations started, people did all that they could to save their own lives, which meant acquiring work papers/documents. Bolkowiak was saved three times from being sent to Treblinka because a secretary, who knew he was a member of the resistance, did what he could to save certain people (members of the resistance, doctors, etc.) from deportation. He talks about how the Jewish police were the ones responsible for carrying out the round ups, not the Germans. FILM ID 3374 -- Camera Roll #6 -- 02:00:00 to 02:11:45 (sound only) Lanzmann starts by asking Bolkowiak to discuss the birth of the resistance movement. Bolkowiak explains some of the various splinter groups and parties that existed in the ghetto and in Poland. He explains how they all actually existed before the war except for the communist organization, which was formed after the war by several smaller groups united by a common cause (fighting the Germans). He talks about some of the people involved in the different groups. Initially, the groups only prepared for passive resistance. He explains the later military organization/coordination between groups. When they began preparing for activity, they had no arms. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] He explains that in the beginning there weren't preparations to defend the ghetto because it was generally accepted that the Jews would take part in the city's defense with everyone else. FILM ID 3375 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 03:00:00 to 03:25:10 Note: Transcripts for rolls #7 and 8 appear before those for roll #6. Roll #7: Lanzmann and Bolkowiak discuss the reservations the Polish resistance army had with giving arms to the Jews in the ghetto; they viewed the Jews as incapable of helping/defending themselves. He tells of the first 'symbolic' pistol that was sent into the ghetto by the Kokliski Workers Party (?) in August 1942; he knows this as he was the one that received it. He discusses some of the people/groups involved in the arrangement and in later smuggling of arms into the ghetto. Some were also acquired on the black market. Bolkowiak briefly talks about the need for weapons in preparing for the April 1943 uprising (preparations of which began in January). In his view, part of the problem was the isolation between the various resistance groups. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks him about the view held by many that the Poles didn't help the Jews in the ghetto. He responds by discussing Poland and how it had been divided by the Germans, of the Jewish ghetto inside a ghetto. The situation was not comparable to that of France or Holland or Denmark. 03:10:59 Roll #8: Bolkowiak continues to talk about the situation in Poland and how it differed from that of other countries. He discusses how laws discriminated against Jews and Poles; how Poland was the only country that completely lacked its own government; and how Jews in Poland were not assimilated into the general populace like in other countries. He doesn't think the majority of the Polish population was anti-Semitic. He does say that there were a number of groups and people who were very anti-Semitic before the war, but then cites specific examples of these same people actually worked to save Jews. If anyone is culpable, he feels it is the western democracies. Picture cuts out 03:22:06 to end of roll. Bolkoviac continues by telling how difficult it was to save a Jew (due to their different language/appearance), about the great risk to those involved and their families. He cites how many Jews were saved by Poles and explains how typically 5-6 Poles would be involved for each Jew saved. To him these means a large part of the population were actually sympathetic to what was happening, but that large scale rescue simply was not possible. He himself, after being injured, was hidden by 14 different people. He disagrees with the argument that the majority of concentration camps were placed in Poland because of the anti-Semitic attitudes that existed there; he feels it was logically due to the fact that Poland is where the Jews were.

    Gustav Laabs and Lettre Becker

    Gustav Laabs and Lettre Becker

    Film

    RG-60.5025 Hidden camera interview with Gustav Laabs, who drove a gas van at Chelmno. Lanzmann is challenged by two neighbors after Laabs refuses to open the door to his apartment. Additional rolls contain industrial scenes and footage of a truck in transit. The truck was manufactured by the company Saurer, which also manufactured gas vans during the war. Multiple takes show Lanzmann reading a letter written by the engineer Dr. Becker in which Becker details the operation of a gas van. FILM ID 3824 -- Laabs CR#4-7 Maison Chelmno CR4 Germany filmed from the rear window of a moving vehicle. Cars drive. People stand on the sidewalk. A building at the side of the road says “MOBEL BODEN”. The car turns down another street. CR5 CU of a window with curtains. The camera tilts down, pans to the right on a brick wall, and left on another balcony with windows. WS building with a blue car parked in front. Lanzmann and Corinna walk on the street. Cut to leader. A man walks outside. INT of the car, Adidas box on the left. Lanzmann stands outside a door. Sign marked “G. Laabs”. Cut to leader [orange]. INT Lanzmann stands outside Laabs’ apartment. No one answers. Cut to leader. A man smoking walks by. A man and woman exit the door. CU building windows. A man in a blue sweater walks towards the building. He stops, looks back, and shrugs. A young boy sits in an open window of the building, he quickly hides. Cut to leader. Man in the blue sweater briefly talks [silent]. He walks toward the building. Lanzmann and Corinna walk away, they are both smiling. Another shot of the building through the car window. A boy rests in the window, and a young man stands below. A woman calls to her children through the door. Cut to orange. CR6 Lanzmann talks to a neighbor of Laabs, CUs. The man insists he does not know what Laabs did during the war, and that he does not really know him. Lanzmann continues to question him, and again the neighbor says he doesn’t know anything. Lanzmann tells him he killed 200,000 Jews and drove the gas van at Chelmno. He says he will call someone if they don’t stop filming. Lanzmann persists, asking what he thinks of these affairs in general. The man says he condemns them. They continue arguing. The conversation ends abruptly as Lanzmann says “goodbye”. Lanzmann and Corinna walk away. FILM ID 3293 (also called Film ID 3825) -- Coupe Image II Laab[s] II Fin Chelmno II Streets, houses, etc. shot from a moving car. The car pulls up outside of Laabs' house and Lanzmann (not on camera) reads from the indictment at the 1963 trial. CU on one window and balcony in the apartment building. Lanzmann and a women walk up to the building. Lanzmann stands outside a door labeled "G. Laabs." He rings the doorbell but there is no answer. In the next scene Lanzmann is challenged by two residents of the building, who tell him that he cannot film people who don't wish to be filmed. They say Mr. Laabs is a good neighbor. Lanzmann tells the two neighbors of Laabs that he drove a gas van during the war and murdered over 200,000 Jews. The woman turns her back to the camera and tells Lanzmann that if she sees herself on television she will get a lawyer. The man starts to tell Lanzmann that they are from the next generation. Lanzmann says that he has given them information about their neighbor. The woman tells Lanzmann to leave and they walk away. FILM ID 3383 -- CR#1,2,3,9,10 -- 01:00:08 to 01:23:20 View from inside a truck as Lanzmann's crew drives along a highway and industrial areas in Germany (Switzerland?). CUs of trucks. Multiple takes of Lanzmann reading engineer Dr. Becker's letter concerning the operation of the gas vans. The May 16, 1942 letter was addressed to Obersturmbahnfuehrer Walter Rauff, Central Security of the Reich in Berlin, in Kiev, Ukraine. Lanzmann reads the document in French and in German while inside the moving vehicle. Ends with recorded candid conversation in French. FILM ID 3384 -- CR#11,12,Breme 1 -- 02:00:08 to 02:29:05 Lanzmann's crew films trucks driving along a highway in Switzerland and at a truck rest stop. CUs, a blue "Saurer" truck. "Saurer" manufactured the trucks that were used as gas vans. They were made in Kiev, Simferopol, Minsk, Riga, and Kaunas from late 1941 to 1942. FILM ID 3385 -- Saurer 1,2,4 --03:00:09 - 03:02:40 CUs, a blue "Saurer" truck.

    Simon Srebnik - Chelmno

    Simon Srebnik - Chelmno

    Film

    Simon Srebnik (Shimon Srebrnik) was a boy of 13 when he was deported to Chelmno from the Łódź ghetto. He worked on a Sonderkommando burying those who had been murdered by gas. Srebnik was seriously wounded by Nazi gunfire during the liquidation of the camp, but managed to escape and find refuge with a Polish farmer. The Germans offered a large cash reward for turning Srebnik in, but the Poles, who already feared the approaching Russians more than the Germans, did not betray him. After the war he immediately immigrated to Israel. Srebnik's story is a focal point in the film "Shoah." The interview takes place first in Chelmno, Poland (September 1978) and later in Israel (Fall 1979). Corinna Coulmas interprets the sections in German; Barbra Janicka interprets the sections in Polish; and an English to Hebrew intepreter in Israel. FILM ID 3278 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:12 to 01:22:33 The whole reel consists of shots of a party in a yard in Israel (presumably Srebnik's yard). Several children play while adults sit on the grass. Srebnik pushes two children on a swing. Srebnik's wife is also present. People talk and laugh and relax. Note: CR #1-7 are filmed by Lubtchansky and chronologically later (in Fall 1979) than the rolls shot in Poland but have earlier camera roll numbers. FILM ID 3279 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 02:00:20 to 02:27:19 Srebnik sits with wife indoors. Lanzmann speaks English, which is translated into Hebrew. Later Srebnik speaks German directly to Lanzmann. Note: CR #1-7 are filmed by Lubtchansky and chronologically later (in Fall 1979) than the rolls shot in Poland but have earlier camera roll numbers. FILM ID 3280 -- Camera Rolls #45-48A -- 03:00:19 to 03:12:22 Scenes shot from the back seat of Srebnik riding in the passenger seat of a car, in Poland. Srebnik speaks Hebrew, which interpreter Corinna Coulmas translates into French. 03:07:34 When they get out of the car Srebnik is still speaking Hebrew. 03:11:19 Srebnik stands by a church and there is no audio. FILM ID 3281 -- Camera Rolls #49-50 -- 04:00:20 to 04:18:26 Srebnik, Corinna and Lanzmann are on the site of the Chelmno camp, which appears to be a coal yard now. Corinna translates Srebnik's Hebrew into French. Srebnik points out various features of the site. 04:07:17 clapperboard says "Glasberg." CR #50 Lanzmann and Srebnik speak German. Srebnik tells the story of one SS man who spoke German with a Bavarian accent. This man somehow got the idea that Srebnik could understand him better than the others. 04:08:38 Lanzmann tells Srebnik that they will speak German and says, "Two Jews in Chelmno speaking German, that makes sense." Srebnik explains how workers were shot and replaced by new workers from the transports that arrived in the camp. He describes how prisoners were executed two days before the camp was liberated by the Soviets in January 1945. He himself was shot in the back of the neck but the bullet exited through his mouth. He recounts how he got up and ran into the woods. The SS realized that one body was missing but they didn't find him hiding behind a tree. FILM ID 3282 -- Camera Rolls #51-55 -- 05:00:20 to 05:35:09 The clapper board reads "Glasberg." Srebnik speaks Polish with a local man who remembers the events of the war years. A group of Poles stands behind them and watches as they compare memories of the area before the war. Srebnik asks if there are any members of the Król family still around, and the man informs him that there is only one surviving family member. He also asks about the Miszczak (or Mistrzak) family, which he used to visit often. They discuss how nice the place used to look before the war, and Srebnik describes the park, the raspberries that grew around the buildings, and similar. 05:01:31 The local man asks questions about what exactly was going on with the cars arriving at the building, as from his vantage point he could never see anyone/anything getting in or out. They discussed that he remembers this from 1943 and 1944, but Srebnik admits he only arrived to the camp in '44. The local man asks if the people were electrocuted in the cars and Srebnik clarifies that the cars came over already loaded with people from the palace, and then the hoses were changed, and they drove off, alive, to the burial place in the forest, about four kilometers away, by which time all the people would be dead. He also describes the digging of ditches and how the bodies would be placed into them. 05:05:23 A much younger local man invites Srebnik and Lanzmann into the large building, which had been Srebnik's living quarters. 05:06:04 No picture inside the building until CR #52 begins. Audio continues during this time, some Polish and French, but switches to German at 05:06:22 as Lanzmann speaks to Srebnik in German. Srebnik describes the barrack where he slept (?). 05:07:04 On CR #52 and 53 Srebnik and Lanzmann speak in German while standing in the location of the barracks (now a construction site). Srebnik describes how, at 13 years of age, he stood out in this courtyard in January wearing only underwear and chains. He points out where the gas vans were repaired in the yard. The Germans called him "Spinnefix" because he was so fast and he earned privileges by running. Walter Burmeister, one of the gas van drivers, saved his life when Bothmann ordered that he be executed. Burmeister told Srebnik that after the war he would adopt him. Lanzmann asks Srebnik how he explains this act of human kindness on Burmeister's part, given that he was also a member of the SS and a war criminal. Lanzmann says that he traveled to Flensburg to find Burmeister but he had been dead for two months by the time he found him. He describes the daily executions and the sadistic games that the SS played with the prisoners. He points out a barracks where he removed the gold from prisoners' teeth. Most people only remained in Chelmno for up to 5 days (?) but Srebnik remained for 6 months. 05:20:00 On CR #54 Barbara Janicka translates Polish to French. (For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of his memoir The Patagonian Hare.) They have been joined by an older local man who clearly remembers the occupation and events of that time. Srebnik stands with a group of Poles, including two young boys, still on the grounds of the former camp. 05:23:49 CR #55 Lanzmann and Srebnik speak German. Srebnik describes how Bothmann took him hunting and he fetched the dead game "like a dog." 05:25:15 Lanzmann begins conversing again with the Poles and Srebnik in Polish. Among other things, they discuss the Miszczak family who had aided Srebnik in the forests, and the family's whereabouts. FILM ID 3283 -- Camera Rolls #56-59 -- 06:00:20 to 06:28:43 Lanzmann asks (translated) questions of the same Polish men as in CR #55. Now there are six young boys, wearing some kind of scout uniforms. CR #60 Mute, shots of the boys and of some of the Poles listening to the conversation. Note: Title on screen at beginning of tape says CR #57-60, this tape contains CR #56-59. FILM ID 3284 -- Camera Rolls #60-63 -- 07:00:29 to 07:37:12 Lanzmann sits in the church in Chelmno with Srebnik and the priest. Lanzmann speaks French and Srebnik and the priest speak Polish. FILM ID 3285 -- Camera Rolls #70-82 -- 08:00:18 to 08:29:59 This reel is made up almost entirely of different takes of Srebnik on the boat on the river, sometimes singing and sometimes simply silent shots. FILM ID 3286 -- Camera Rolls #83-85 -- 09:00:19 to 09:19:00 Barbara translates from French to Polish and back. Srebnik stands with three Poles, Lanzmann, and Barbara by the river. FILM ID 3287 -- Camera Rolls #86, 102-105 -- 10:00:18 to 10:21:28 All in German. Lanzmann and Srebnik walk down a dirt road toward the camera. On the next reel, Srebnik stands with the forest in the background. He says that in 1944 corpses from Chelmno were burned in large ovens at this site. From every transport 10 men were chosen to write letters back to Łódź, telling that there was work and food at the camp. This encouraged the relatives to come as well. Srebnik describes how the corpses were burned using wood as fuel after the people were killed in gas vans. Srebnik stands and contemplates the site. He says that he was told by a guard that there were mass graves here in 1942 and they built the ovens in early 1944. In 1944, after the corpses were burned, they took the large bones, pulverized them, and threw the ash in the river. Srebnik says that the spot was as quiet then as it is now. There was no screaming, people simply got on with the work of burning the bodies. He points out the route the gas vans took to the ovens. He describes again how the bodies were burned and the larger bones were pulverized. At Lanzmann's urging, he describes the bone crushing machine in more detail. The workers cleaned out the ovens before receiving the transports, which came every two days. At Lanzmann's request, Srebnik describes in detail what happened when a gas van full of corpses arrived. Srebnik was part of the crew that built the ovens. They did not know what they were for until the first gas van full of corpses arrived. He was not so shocked by this because he had already seen so much. Lanzmann finds it hard to believe this. FILM ID 3288 -- Camera Rolls #106-109 -- 01:00:18 to 01:26:09 All in German. Srebnik stands in the field where the crematoriums were in 1944. He continues to explain why he was not so shocked when he discovered what the ovens were to be used for. He had already seen a lot of death (by starvation) in the Łódź ghetto. People dropped dead in the streets and were picked up and taken away. FILM ID 3289 -- Camera Rolls #111-112, 116 -- 12:00:23 to 12:15:07 Srebnik stands in front of the church in Chelmno, surrounded by Polish villagers. They speak to Srebnik in Polish and to Lanzmann through Barbara Janicka (the interpreter). Singing can be heard from the church in the background. Several of the men were also interviewed with Srebnik at the site of the camp (see Film ID 3282-3284 for CR #51-60). The priest and a crowd of churchgoers leave the church to the ringing of church bells. More shots of Srebnik surrounded by Poles. FILM ID 3290 -- Coupe Son 1 + Fin Chelmno II Montage -- 13:00:19 to 13:05:16 Srebnik says that he was at the trial of the SS men of Chelmno and they were all surprised and happy to discover that "Spinnefix" had survived. The judge asked the defendants, including Laabs and Burmeister, whether they recognized the witness Srebnik and they all said no. Another shot of Srebnik riding a boat down the river, singing. FILM ID 3291 -- Camera Roll #112A -- 15:00:18 to 15:01:29 Mute CUs of people in front of the church in Chelmno. FILM ID 3292 -- Coupes -- 16:00:20 to 16:06:44 Mute CUs of Srebnik and his wife in their house in Israel.

    Ada Lichtman

    Ada Lichtman

    Film

    Ada (Eda) Lichtman talks about her experiences in the Krakow ghetto, her father's murder, and her transport to Sobibor. She was chosen to do the SS laundry in Sobibor and remembers cleaning dolls and toys seized from a transport of children for the SS families. She talks about Franz Stangl and Gustav Wagner and relates a story about a Dutch transport where the prisoners were given postcards to write home before they were murdered. At Lanzmann's urging, Lichtman sews doll clothes during the interview; this is a duty she used to perform in Sobibor. FILM ID 3270 -- Camera Rolls #1-4-- 01:00:18 to 01:34:00 Ada Lichtman and her husband sit on a couch. Two dolls sit on a table in front of them and Lichtman sews clothes on another one. The camera sometimes focuses on Lichtman's husband. After several seconds Lanzmann begins the interview. Lichtman was 13 years old when she moved to Krakow with her parents. When the Germans came the family was living in a small town near Krakow. The Germans immediately took the men for forced labor. Lichtman witnessed her father being shot in a wood, along with many other men of the town. Lichtman and the other women managed to bring their men back to town for burial but they were harrassed by the Polish peasants. A few days later Lichtman went to Krakow to live in the Jewish quarter. She saw with her own eyes how the Germans harrassed and mistreated the Jews every day, including beard shaving. They brought mentally ill people from an asylum to the town and mistreated them. Lichtman married her fiance and moved to a town called Mielic (?). She and her new husband had planned to flee to the Soviet Union but found that it was impossible. Lichtman's husband was killed when a large stone was dropped on his head (she said previously that she married after the German invasion, but here she says she got married in May, 1939). The Judenrat confiscated the Jews' valuables and gave them to the Germans in exchange for a promise that they would not have to leave Mielic but the next day they were rounded up and taken to another town. The Jews of this town were forced into the synagogue and burned alive (it's not clear whether she is talking about the Jews from Mielec or the Jews from the other town). She says that many of the Poles helped the Germans to persecute the Jews and that they were antisemetic even before the war. FILM ID 3271 -- Camera Rolls #5-9 -- 02:00:18 to 02:34:26 Lichtman says she gathered a suitcase with photos together to take with her when they were resettled, but a German grabbed it and threw it away and her photos flew away in the wind. The Jews, perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 arrived in deep snow at an airplane factory in Berdighof (?) where they were beaten and given a little bread. Many were shot. Eventually they were marched further on, to the town of Dubienka, near the Bug river. They were settled in a ghetto there. There was very little to eat. In the spring, before Pesach, those remaining Jews were marched on to a railway station, where they boarded trains for Sobibor. She tells a somewhat confusing story of being transferred from train car to train car, and being deloused and made to dance for the Germans' amusement, while the trains travelled continually for several days. Lanzmann sounds skeptical, saying that Dubienka is not far from Sobibor, but Lichtman insists this is what happened. Lanzmann asks Lichtman if the Poles ever tried to warn the Jews about Sobibor. Lichtman says no, only the Ukrainians told them that they would no longer need their possessions. When they arrived in Sobibor, Lichtman was selected by an SS man to do laundry, along with two other women. Lichtman says that these three were the only ones who remained of the transport of 7,000 people. The women were taken to a villa called the Jolly Flea, so-called by the Germans because it was dirty and the camp was flea-ridden. Every day Lichtman washed and ironed the laundry of the SS men. Lichtman describes her arrival at Sobibor. After the chaos and the violence of her arrival at Sobibor, the camp gave the impression of a summer resort. For a couple of days she did not realize what happened at the camp, until the workers began to build a building to contain the possessions of the murdered Jews. One of the workers saw the corpses from the roof of the building and reported back. She says that the transports came three times per day. FILM ID 3272 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 03:00:19 to 03:34:31 The camera pans over to Lichtman's husband, who watches his wife as she speaks. Lichtman slept with the other women in a small room. Roll call occurred every morning at 5 am. They were the first laundry women but more were chosen from later transports, all of them beautiful young girls. Some of them worked in the casino and were taken by the Germans "for their personal use." Lichtman worked from 5 am until dark, with one hour for lunch. She describes the camp and how it was enlarged over time. The workers were not allowed to leave their work stations when the transports arrived but they could hear the noise of the arrivals. Lichtman describes a transport which contained many Austrian children. [Gustav] Wagner threw the children from the train into another wagon and Lichtman could hear their screams. Lichtman says she thinks that the distance to the gas chambers was two or three kilometers but Lanzmann tells her it was only 400 meters. She says that she was near the gas chambers only once, when the Germans took them to see some workers who had escaped and were caught in the forest. The workers were shot in front of them as an example of what would happen if they tried to escape. Lanzmann interviews Lichtman's husband. He speaks German with a heavy accent (or Yiddish?), which is translated into French. He met Ada in Sobibor, where he was working as a shoemaker. His entire family was killed at Sobibor. Fifty men were taken from his community and deported to Belzec, so he knew that people were killed there but not at Sobibor. He describes his arrival in the camp. He was chosen for work because he was a shoemaker. The interview continues with Ada Lichtman. She sews a doll as she speaks. She works on the dolls throughout the rest of the interview and at several points she simply sews for several seconds without speaking. She says that the Germans took dolls from the arriving Jewish children, sometimes tearing them out of their hands and sometimes taking them after the children were already dead. They ordered Ada and her colleagues to clean the dolls and sew new clothes for them, so that they could bring them home to their own children when they went on leave. She says they also took other toys, and that Wagner took home with him a newborn baby's basket. There was a young girl, perhaps ten years old, who worked with Lichtman, and she played with the dolls. Lichtman says the girl was alive until the revolt but she doesn't know what happened to her after that. Lichtman and the other prisoners also made shirts for the SS men from the nightgowns of Jewish women. Lanzman points out that the dolls came from the transports of Western Jews. The female workers were careful to appear always busy because they were afraid they would be killed if there was not enough work for all of them. FILM ID 3273 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 (including #13A, which is indicated in the transcript but not by a clapper board in the video).-- 04:00:17 to 04:31:45 Lichtman says that sometimes the women had hope that they would survive. She says they used to sing songs and at Lanzmann's urging she sings a couple of them but she can't remember the words. She sings a little bit from a song about the sun and says that during the last days of the camp the weather was so cold and the song cheered them up and gave them hope. Lichtman says that after a transport arrived and the Jews in it were killed the atmosphere in the camp was depressed. Franz Stangl used to come and talk to her husband, telling him that the Jews who arrived on transports were bound for work assignments in the Ukraine and that the Sobibor workers would get special certificates to go work in the Ukraine. Eventually the Germans started burning the corpses. The water at the camp was already spoiled (from the corpses in the mass graves?). The prisoners were not permitted to communicate with anyone in the transports, but because Lichtman had to go to the well to get water for the laundry, she was sometimes able to slip away and give the new arrivals water and food. Lanzmann asks Lichtman about Wagner. She says that everyone was afraid of him and that she would like to know today what he has to say for his crimes (Wagner was discovered in 1978 living in Brazil but the Brazilian government refused to extradite him. He committed suicide in 1980). She says that Wagner intervened once when she was being beaten by a Ukrainian and generally treated her better than he treated some of the others, perhaps because she made things for him and his family. Eichmann visited the camp icognito at least once, although Lichtman didn't realize until she was called as a witness before the Eichmann trial. FILM ID 3274 -- Camera Roll #16 -- 05:00:18 to 05:11:20 Lanzmann compliments Lichtman on the work that she is doing. He says he thinks that is why Wagner kept her alive. Lanzmann asks Lichtman to talk about Ilana Safran (or Shafran), a Dutch Jew who worked with Lichtman, but she starts to tell the story and does not finish it. The Dutch transports were made up of sleeping cars and the Germans set up food for them when they arrived so they would not guess they were to be gassed. Some of the Dutch Jews were ordered to write postcards home to tell people how nice the camp was. FILM ID 3275 -- Camera Rolls #8A,14A,15A,16A -- 06:00:17 to 06:05:40 Mute shots of Lichtman and her husband FILM ID 3276 -- Camera Rolls #12A,12B -- 07:00:18 to 07:02:42 Mute shots of Lichtman sewing clothes on a doll. FILM ID 3277 -- Camera Roll #16A -- 08:00:18 to 08:07:41 Mute shots of Lanzmann, Lichtman, and her husband.

    Jacob Arnon

    Jacob Arnon

    Film

    Jacob Arnon was a Dutch Jew and leader of a Zionist student organization. Arnon's uncle was one of the chairmen of the Jewish Council [Judenrat] in Amsterdam, and though he admired his uncle greatly, he condemns the Council's actions, especially their choice of whom to deport. Arnon's uncle survived the war but the two never spoke again. FILM ID 3265 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:18 to 01:29:12 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Mr. Jacob (Ya'akov) Arnon, born Jaap van Amerongen, sits outside on a balcony and holds a pipe. There are some construction and other noises in the background. The image is soft when the camera pulls in close on Arnon's face. He says that his family received their certificates for Palestine the day before the Germans invaded Holland in May, 1940. After the initial reaction of the Jews to the invasion, which included many suicides, life returned to a kind of normal existence. Arnon points out that about 80 percent of the Dutch Jews were killed, the worst percentage in Western Europe. He says the Dutch Jews were very assimilated and felt that it couldn't happen to them. Jews made up ten percent of Amsterdam's population and Arnon says that while there was antisemitism in Holland, it was very mild compared to other places. Arnon was a Zionist. He talks about the mood of the Jews as time passed under German occupation and describes the first razzia in Amsterdam. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Arnon says that the Jewish Council was formed in February, 1941. He describes his uncle, Asscher, the biggest manufacturer of diamonds in Amsterdam, and Rabbi Cohen. These two prominent Jews were natural choices to be chairmen of the Jewish Council. Arnon says that his uncle was very well-loved by people but that in the end he was a "good man for quiet times." Some men refused to be part of the Jewish Council, arguing that it was a mistake to be pushed out of the Dutch community, but most people thought the Council was a good idea. Arnon says that the Germans forced the Jewish Council to break a strike that was instigated by the general population in protest of the razzia against the Jews. In July, 1942 the deportations began. Arnon says that he does not think that the members of the Council knew about the gas chambers. However, the Germans told the Jews that they would be part of labor columns and it should have been clear that old people and children would not survive this treatment. According to Arnon, the worst thing was that the members of the Council found a way to send the less important Jews first and the more important Jews later in hopes that a second front would end the war [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3266 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 02:00:19 to 02:31:01 Lanzmann asks Arnon whether he remembers the relocation of the provincial Jews to Amsterdam. He says that this was the first case where the Jewish Council requested power from the Germans. Arnon says he did not have much to do with the Council at this time. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Arnon says that in reading the Jewish newspaper it was not always clear which decrees were coming from the Germans and which from the Council. Arnon tells Lanzmann he must understand that there was a constant movement from bad to worse. Taking the case of the Jewish Council, they started out with the best intentions but ended up only trying to save their own families at the expense of other Jews. Nonetheless, Arnon says, he wants to make clear that the Germans and not the Jews perpetrated the Holocaust. Arnon's main criticism of the Council was that by keeping the Jews quiet and by lulling them into the feeling that things would work out they actually diminished their chances of survival. He says that if the Council had not gone along with the Germans and had instead been honest about the situation then more Jews would have gone into hiding and been saved [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Arnon says there were two meetings in which the Council discussed whether or not to comply with the demands of the Germans, who wanted them to prepare the deportation lists. The Council wanted to keep intact as much as possible the "valuable" part of the Jewish Community, meaning those in their own circle. He says that they made their most fatal decision in July of 1942, when they did not refuse to make choices among the remaining 140,000 Jews in Holland. In September 1943 the Germans convinced the Council to keep the last deportations a secret, in exchange for the lives of about 100 Jews who were family members of Council members. The Germans did not keep their promise and deported them all. Arnon says that in July and August, 1942 he had two meetings with his uncle that resulted in the two breaking all ties to each other. Arnon went to his uncle and told him that he should give a sign to the Jewish community that all was lost. He offered to help his uncle get out of Holland. FILM ID 3267 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 03:00:18 to 03:33:51 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Arnon and his uncle had a terrible argument. The argument took place in his uncle's diamond factory, which was still in operation. Arnon says he was influenced in his anger by the fact that he was a teacher and his students had been deported. He details his first and his second conversation with his uncle. Arnon told his uncle that he must tell the Jews somehow that all was lost so that some of them would go into hiding. During the second meeting Arnon said that if his uncle did not do something he would be a murderer of Jews. Arnon says that only a small percentage of the Jews reported to the station when ordered to do so for deportation [CLIP 3 ENDS]. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] He says that the vast majority of the Dutch were against the German occupation and against the persecution of the Jews, but they didn't do anything to resist. Lanzmann asks if it is true that members of the Jewish Council went door to door to convince the Jews to show up for deportation. Arnon says it is possible that some did do this, but in any case the Council advised the Jews to act "legally" without considering that the laws they were asking the Jews to follow would result in deportation. Being a member of the Council did not mean that one had absolute security -- there were members of the Council who were deported starting in 1942. Lanzmann points out that in the end the Jewish leaders lied about the living conditions in the East. Arnon says that the Jewish leaders made a fuss out of the very few letters and cards that came from those deported. Lanzmann points out that the Jews of Holland were shipped to Auschwitz and Sobibor and killed immediately, but that some of them were forced to write letters home first. Lanzmann quotes from internal Council bulletins in which claims were made about the good conditions in Auschwitz and Theresienstadt. Arnon says that he is not defending the Council, but they did not know what was happening in Poland, did not know about the gas chambers. Lanzmann is skeptical and Arnon continues to defend the Council on this point [CLIP 4 ENDS]. FILM ID 3268 -- Camera Rolls #11,12 -- 04:00:18 to 04:18:15 Lanzmann describes the 60th birthday celebration of Rabbi Cohen, one of the chairmen of the Council. He says that Cohen was compared repeatedly to Moses and was presented with several gifts. Arnon says that this event was very badly received by the other Jews, who viewed it as a festival in the middle of the deportations. He says that the Council members felt deeply that they were doing the right thing but that they were out of touch with reality. Both Asscher and Cohen survived the war. Arnon saw his uncle once after the war but neither wanted to talk to the other. [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Arnon discusses the sterilization of Jews in mixed marriages. These Jews were told they could either be sterilized or be deported. Arnon says that this only happened in Holland [CLIP 5 ENDS]. FILM ID 3269 -- Camera Roll #12A -- 05:00:18 to 05:04:57 Mute. CU on Lanzmann's face as he listens to Arnon (Arnon is not in the shot). Lanzmann smokes a cigarette. The camera pans out to reveal a notebook with writing and an ashtray on a table in front of Lanzmann.

    John Pehle - Allies

    John Pehle - Allies

    Film

    John Pehle discusses the War Refugee Board, U.S. policy and inaction, the Riegner cable of March 1943, Rabbi Wise and the rally at Madison Square Garden, antisemitism, the bombing of Auschwitz, the International Red Cross, and the Vatican. FILM ID 3259 -- Camera Rolls #38-42-- 01:00:18 to 01:07:31 Roll 38 01:00:19 John Pehle exits his house, which is located in a wooded area, and walks around his yard. The camera pans out to reveal more of the wooded surroundings. Pehle walks around the woods and collects small branches. It is fall or early winter and dead leaves cover the ground. 01:03:13 Roll 39 01:03:23 Pehle rakes leaves in the woods. 01:03:54 Roll 40 01:03:55 Pehle walks in the woods and occasionally stops to pick a branch off the ground. He heads towards his house and goes inside. 01:06:02 Roll 41 01:06:03 Pehle walks from the woods to his yard and into his house. 01:07:05 Roll 42 01:07:06 CU of Pehle in the woods pulling branches from a bush and looking up to the sky. FILM ID 3260 -- Camera Rolls #43-44 -- 02:00:18 to 02:16:53 Roll 43 02:00:19 CU of John Pehle sits in a wicker chair in his house. Claude Lanzmann sits across from Pehle in front of glass doors that reveal the woods that surround them. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Pehle discusses the drastic change in US policy regarding refugee assistance once the WRB was founded. Lanzmann asks him to explain the policies up until the founding of the WRB. Pehle talks about how difficult it was to acquire visas during this time because there was a fear of the burden and dependency that comes with aiding refugees. Lanzmann pushes for an explanation for why so few Jews were granted visas during the war and Pehle is unable to give a reason beyond the fact that there were obstacles involved. Lanzmann asks Pehle to read a statement Congressman Dickstein gave to the House of Representatives in 1943 in which he states that there has been no effort by the government to prevent people from being killed in Europe [CLIP 1 ENDS]. 02:11:25 Roll 44 02:11:28 Pehle reads the rest of Congressman Dickstein's statement and moves on to a statement by Congressman Celler, who criticizes the lack of action, calling it cold-blooded. Pehle describes the obstacles they faced including the FBI's fear that Nazis would try to infiltrate and become recruiters for their cause in America. Lanzmann and Pehle discuss how few people were allowed into the country during the war. 02:16:51 FILM ID 3261 -- Camera Rolls #45-48 -- 03:00:18 to 03:28:18 Roll 45 03:00:19 Lanzmann and Pehle sit across from each other in Pehle's home. Pehle talks about how the pressure to act intensified in December of 1943. Lanzmann wonders why the word "Jewish" was never mentioned when it was specifically Jews who were targeted. Pehle describes a situation that involved sending funds to save a large number of Romanian Jews in March of 1943, but first a license from the Department of Treasury had to be acquired, which did not happen until July. Then the State Department and the British government had certain objections to the license so the funds were delayed until December when a cable sent to the US revealed the urgent need for them. 03:10:07 Roll 46 03:10:08 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Pehle goes through the exact timeline of the nine months it took to provide funds in order to save a large number of Jews from Romania and France. Information acquired through a cable about the extermination of the Jews caused the license to be rushed in December, but the situation in Europe had turned worse and it was too late to save the Romanian Jews. Pehle learned that this cable was withheld from Mr. Morgenthau and the rest of the Department of Treasury by the State Department. 03:17:07 **See FILM ID 3264 for Roll 47** Roll 48 03:17:08 Lanzmann and Pehle now sit in the living room of Pehle's home. Pehle explains why the State Department was on the defensive in regards to the funds. He reads a memorandum sent by the general coucil of the Treasury, Randolph Paul, which outlines the circumstances surrounding the cable regarding the extermination of the Jews. The cable was originally sent for the Undersecretary of State Sumner Welles and Rabbi Stephen Wise and it detailed the mass executions and the desperate living situations of the Jews in Europe. The State Department then circulated a cable which advised that such messages about the Jews in Europe should not be made public. When asked why the State Department did not want people knowing about this Pehle speculates that they did not want the added pressure to act that would be caused by this information going public and that perhaps they feared hysteria. Pehle participated in a meeting with the President, Secretary Morgenthau and Mr. Dubois in order to inform Roosevelt of the real situation in Europe and the State Department's attempts to conceal information [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Pehle reads a memorandum from Secretary Morgenthau to the President that details the State Department's failures in taking action. 03:28:14 FILM ID 3262 -- Camera Rolls #49-51 -- 04:00:22 to 04:30:34 Roll 49 04:00:20 Pehle and Lanzmann sit in Pehle's living room. Without the actions of the Treasury Department the WRB would not have been founded when it was; it would have been formed even later in the war. Morgenthau used his close relationship with the President to convince him of the necessity of founding the WRB. The policy of the WRB was to "take all measures within its powers to rescue the victims of enemy oppression who are in imminent danger of death, and otherwise to offer these victims all possible relief and assistance." They recognized the danger the Jews were in, but other refugees were not excluded, hence the name of the WRB. The first thing the WRB did was send representatives abroad to aid the private organizations already located in various areas. These representatives were given diplomatic status. The WRB proposed a warning be given to the Germans to let them know that any involvement in the annihilation of the Jews would be punished once the war was over. 04:11:28 Roll 50 04:11:32 Pehle speaks of the confrontation the WRB experienced with the British, who did not approve of the proposal to issue a warning to the Germans. A memorandum from the British expresses their fears of embarrassment if the Germans were to agree to stop the extermination of Jews and release them to other countries as "alien immigrants." Since the WRB drastically changed American policy, immigration has become much more liberal, allowing Cubans, Vietnamese and Hungarians to come into the country to flee from persecution and hardship. One of the greatest accomplishments of the WRB was their ability to transfer funds to private agencies that were already in action, most notably the Joint Distribution Committee. Moses Leavitt, the head of the JDC, came to Pehle immediately to thank him for supporting them; he felt for the first time that someone in the government was on their side. The JDC was involved in creating false Latin American passports for Jews and at one point the Germans rounded up all those with fake passports and put them in a camp in Vittel, France. Upon hearing this the WRB urged the Latin American embassies not to deny the validity of the passports while the war was going on and this intervention resulted in those people being saved from the extermination camps. 04:22:49 Roll 51 04:22:52 Lanzmann wonders what it meant to be informed while in America during the war. Pehle discusses his preparation for the interview and even though he knew what was happening at the time, to go over the material again was still very shocking and he thinks that people try to forget it almost out of disbelief that something so horrible could occur. At one point the WRB was able to attain eyewitness accounts from two people [Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler] who had escaped from Auschwitz which was valuable because at the time many people were trying to deny the truths of the war. The WRB released a press release about the Vrba-Wetlzer report. A journalist named Elmer Davis from the Government's information office called Pehle to ask him to withdraw the article because his staff feared no one would believe it and that further releases from the government would then be discounted as well. Pehle realized that people will reject believing such awful things. Lanzmann asks about the role of antisemitism and Pehle answers that he thinks many people, both non-Jews and Jews, are antisemitic without even realizing it. Pehle then tells a story of he and his friends, two of whom were Jewish, trying to find a country club at which to play golf. Most of the clubs did not accept Jewish members, so they decided to join a Jewish golf club. Years later the club had to decide whether or not they were going to accept black members and in the end could not in good consience discriminate against blacks because they themselves had been discriminated against. 04:30:35 FILM ID 3263 -- Camera Rolls #53-55 -- 05:00:18 to 05:34:01 Roll 53 05:00:18 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Lanzmann and Pehle sit on a couch next to each other in Pehle's home. Lanzmann speaks about the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz. In 1944 there were requests from various Jewish organizations through different underground channels for the bombing of the railroad tracks leading to Auschwitz, of the bridges, and of the crematorium at Auschwitz. There was extensive knowledge of the locations and operations and this intelligence was sent to Morgenthau and to Pehle. CU of Pehle as he discusses the skepticism the WRB had of this plan. Militarily it would have been very difficult and with the tracks could easily be rebuilt. Pehle says had just been to McGill University to speak on the the Holocaust and realized that a lot of people feel that much more could have been done and believe that the bombing should have taken place. Pehle says that at the time the WRB felt that resources should be spent on bombing German cities. The Auschwitz factories were eventually bombed but they hesitated at bombing the crematoriums for fear of harming even more Jews. 05:11:43 Roll 54 05:11:45 Pehle met with Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy to discuss the option of bombing the railroad tracks and crematoria. McCloy was completely focused on the war and was completely against the bombing. Pehle's own position changed over the course of time; he was very hesitant but the later into the war it got the more he thought this was something that should have been done. By the time they felt it was an emergency and sent a strong letter recommending the bombing it was already November,1944 and the gassing in Auschwitz was almost finished. Pehle reads excerpts from the letter he wrote to McCloy. The letter was sent on November 8th and on November 18th they received a negative reply from McCloy [CLIP 3 ENDS]. The WRB was told that Auschwitz was out of bombing range and would require too much effort; they later found out that the camp was in the range of the Fifteenth Air Force. 05:23:03 Roll 55 05:23:05 Pehle says that, in retrospect, the Allies' stance on dealing with the Germans may not have been the best strategy to save lives. They would only accept unconditional surrender and would make no deals, which he realizes now might have prolonged the war and caused the loss of many lives. They hesitated when it came to making any deals with the Germans for the trading of goods for Jewish lives because they did not want the Soviets to feel as though they were being undermined. It was also a deal they thought doomed to fail because they did not trust the Germans. The International Red Cross never offered the WRB any sort of great assistance. Pehle does not speculate as to why this was the case. 05:34:13 FILM ID 3264 -- Camera Rolls #56-59,47,52,60 -- 06:00:18 to 06:25:18 Roll 56 06:00:19 Pehle sits on a couch in his home. Lanzmann asks Pehle if they tried to involve the Vatican and the Pope in matters of the war. Pehle recalls that they had meetings with the Apostolic Delegate to try and get the Pope to issue warnings but were unsuccessful. The two men discuss what the plan was for the Jews they were able to save. Pehle states that the WRB "took the attitude that we would worry about that when and if we could get people out, but our concentration was going to be on getting people out." The WRB spoke with Latin American countries about bringing refuges there as well, but the US was unwilling to take refugees, which was a weakness of the WRB. The people they were able to bring into the US, a few hundred brought to an abandoned army camp in New York [Fort Ontario, in Oswego, NY], caused some controversy. Labor unions were upset at the thought of immigrants taking up jobs and other people were upset at the thought of the immigration laws being weakened The group of refugees brought to New York were allowed to become residents. 06:06:14 Roll 58 06:06:16 Lanzmann asks Pehle to explain how the US could house 150,000 German prisoners of war shipped in from Britain, but could not decide if they would accept Jewish refugees. Pehle defends this by pointing out that they took the German prisoners of war because Britain was having a difficult time. They then go on to speak about the difficulty the WRB had with dealing with various Jewish organizations. CU on Pehle as he tells Lanzmann that the WRB preferred to work with the JDC because they were professionals and were not interested in Zionism as much as they were interested in rescuing people. The camera moves from Pehle to Lanzmann who is sitting next to him on the couch and looking down at his notes. Lanzmann then looks at Pehle and the camera moves back to Pehle. 06:11:22 Roll 59 06:11:28 Lanzmann asks about Pehle's experiences with the very religious Jewish leaders. Pehle recounts his dealings with Rabbi Kalmanowitz, head of the religious rescue organization Vaad Hatzala. The rabbi often came to Pehle's office unannounced and would pull his beard and cry. He would also wait in Morgenthau's office and was insistent about saving a particular group of orthodox rabbis who escaped from Poland, crossed Russia and found refuge in Shanghai. He wanted them brought to the US to perpetuate Jewish orthodoxy and he did not understand when they told him there were more pressing matters at the time. Often the WRB was approached about sending money to Switzerland to save specific rabbis and their families, but they did not think it was appropriate to save specific individuals and wanted to save people in a more general sense. Other suggestions involved approaching the Soviet government to ask them to dispatch paratroopers to seize the crematoria buildings and encouraging underground Polish forces to attack camps and destroy their buildings. These suggestions were unrealistic because both nations were too busy defending their own lands. 06:17:21 Roll 47 06:17:30 CU of Lanzmann in Pehle's house. He reaches for something off-camera and listens and reacts to Pehle. 06:18:42 Roll 52 06:18:40 CU of Lanzmann in Pehle's house. He talks to someone off-camera and readjusts himself in his seat. He looks down at something off-camera and lights a cigarette. Smoke wafts in front of his face as he looks down. He smiles at something said to him and places his hand on his head. 06:20:31 Roll 60 06:20:39 CU of a State Department Memorandum of Conversation between Mr. Sohoen of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis and Mr. William I. Riegelman of the Eastern Hemisphere Division. CU of a WRB document regarding Rabbi Kalmanowitz. CU of a letter to Pehle from John J. McCloy at the War Department dated 4 July 1944. The letter refers to the cable from Bern, Switzerland. CU of a memorandum for the files, dated 24 June 1944 and written by Pehle. CU of a letter to McCloy about the extermination of the Jews in Europe. CU of a letter to Pehle from the Agudas Israel World Organization dated 18 June 1944 that discusses rescue strategies. CU of a letter to Henry Morgenthau, also from the Agudas Israel World Organization, dated 18 June 1944. 06:25:18

    Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin - New York

    Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin - New York

    Film

    Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin were activists in the United States during the war. They talk about conflicts with other Jewish groups, especially with Rabbi Stephen Wise. Bergson and his group organized the the We Will Never Die pageant and made other bold publicity moves aimed at influencing American policy in favor of helping the Jews of Europe. FILM ID 3254 -- Camera Rolls #48-50-- 01:00:18 to 01:33:18 Roll 48 01:00:18 Claude Lanzmann, Peter Bergson and Samuel Merlin sit inside a small meeting room around a table in New York City. Lanzmann, off-camera, asks the men about how the general public in America reacted to news about the extermination of the Jews in Europe. Bergson says there is no such thing as "starting to be known," but that the news exploded into the public: all of a sudden The Washington Post printed an article stating that two million Jews had been exterminated. Bergson details his horror to learn this and his attempts to appeal to Rabbi Stephen Wise and to the Assistant Secretary of State to do something to stop these atrocities. However "we discovered to our horror that life went on without much change." Lanzmann probes Bergson about why nothing was done and Bergson answers that the Jews were petrified and the government did not want to be involved in a "Jewish war." Bergson and his friends formed the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe, which drew negative attention and even threatened Bergson's citizenship. Roll 49 01:10:55 Bergson asserts that no one can accuse others of not acting when the Jews need to re-examine themselves and wonder why they and the Jewish leaders were just as inactive. Lanzmann asks about this inaction and Merlin cuts in to describe the fear the Jews of America had at that time. They were highly concerned with maintaining their own welfare and their own status, and "for the first time as people who are not being persecuted because of race, that they were being treated with dignity, with equality." There was a belief that every generation dealt with persecution, but because God protected them for four thousand years that Jews would always prevail. Though books claimed there were many organizations formed to help the Jews of Europe, Merlin claims they were just fronts for the Zionists, and only their Emergency Committee, backed by religious people, was trying to save the Jews. Merlin cuts in and begins to talk about Jewish identity and how American Jews did not identify with European Jews. They continued to push the government and finally were able to get them to form the War Refugee Board, which was a win and a loss because its purpose was to help victims of the war, but the Board avoided any suggestion that they were saving Jews or that this was a Jewish issue. Bergson stresses the fact that Hitler was in power for eight years before anyone became aware of what was happening. Roll 50 01:22:08 Lanzmann expresses surprise at Bergson's sharp criticism of Jewish leaders, and asks about what the average Jew in this country felt. Bergson talks about the discipline of the Jewish people and how they often follow their leaders. Bergson had hope for the common Jew when his committee organized a pageant at Madison Square Garden in 1943 and filled the arena twice in the same night, selling over forty thousand tickets. Bergson asserts that had Rabbi Wise called for a march on Washington a half million Jews would have taken part. Merlin cuts in to say that these people were not wicked in any way and that the issue goes much deeper than claiming that these particular Jews were in any way accomplices in the murder of millions. Lanzmann asks what they imagined when they heard about the destruction of the Jews. Bergson talks about the Jews that were saved and when he ceased being a Zionist. He says it was a political issue that was not answered properly. Resolutions introduced to help the people of Europe were stalled because Jewish leaders, including Rabbi Wise, said "it's not enough, because the big issue is opening the gates of Palestine." FILM ID 3255 -- Camera Rolls #51-53 -- 02:00:19 to 02:33:57 Roll 51 02:00:19 Lanzmann, Bergson and Merlin sit around a table in a small meeting room in New York City. Bergson discusses how the remaining Jews of Europe could have been saved. There were proposals presented to the government that included bombing the crematoria at Auschwitz and threatening to use poison gas on the Germans if they continued to use it on the Jews. The Allies had previously used this threat on the Germans about using poison gas on the Poles, Greeks, etc. Though Roosevelt sent warnings to Germany regarding their actions, there was never specific mention of the Jews, about which Bergson says, "they joined the dehumanization of the Jews, because the Jews are not 'worthy' of retaliation." When Bergson suggested threatening the Germans with retaliation as Chairman of the Hebrew Committee of National Liberation, people were appalled. Other proposals presented by the Hebrew Committee of National Liberation included the establishment of a 25 square mile refuge in Turkey for people who could manage to get there. Bergson thinks the Jews were not saved because the Zionists became too caught up in their ideology. There was not enough focus on the Jews being exterminated and too much on what was going to be done with them as refugees. It should have been about the "physical salvation of human beings." Because of the lack of action to save the Jews, it became about just winning the general war. Had the Jews pushed the American people to support their cause, efforts to save the European Jews would have been mobilized. Roll 52 02:11:35 Bergson describes the difficulties in rallying the Jews for this cause. It was easier to recruit prominent non-Jews than it was to rally prominent Jews. His committee was unable to be as effective as they wanted to be because they were seen as a radical group when in fact they were not. American newspaperman William Allen White told Bergson that they were not radical enough and that every window of any British office should be broken. The War Refugee Board symbolized a win and a loss; it was better than nothing and in the end it did manage to save several hundred thousand Jews. However, had there been more pressure many more Jews would have survived. Merlin says that in the mid 1930s there was a feeling of doom for the Jews in Eastern Europe, but Zionists believed an evacuation would mean the forfeiture of the rights of Jews in the evacuated areas. Roll 53 02:22:45 Merlin claims the Zionist leadership gave the impression that their aim was to liberate and rescue the Jewish masses when in fact they wished to transform a small minority of young people through education so they would be prepared to go to Palestine and "live a life which is not plagued and degraded by the life of the Jews in Europe." Merlin describes their attempts to save the Jews as early as 1935 through illegal immigration. The Zionists disagreed with this because it was not selective and because it threatened the monopoly they received from the British government. Merlin discusses the lack of proper coverage of Jewish news in newspapers, saying that any story relating to Hitler or Jewish suffering was either printed in the Obituary page or the Religious page, especially in The New York Times. It did not make any sense that such important news was not printed on the front page. Merlin realized that any type of Jewish organization was located around 14th Street because Jews were afraid to bring the Jewish problem out in the open. FILM ID 3256 -- Camera Rolls #54-56 -- 03:00:07 to 03:30:20 Roll 54 03:00:12 CU of Merlin in his NY office as he describes the major differences between his organization and the Zionists. One major difference was that the Zionists did not identify with the Jews of Europe. One of the greatest Zionist leaders, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, stated before the war that "'in our generation only a minority, the young ones, should be thought of to be saved. The old ones will pass, they will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust... only a remnant shall survive. We have to accept it.'" Merlin goes on to state that "they despised the Jewish masses, and their aim was not to rescue their lives, their aim was to create a transformation of Jews in a new social and ethical framework." CU on Bergson as he disagrees with Merlin's wording on the subject and says that human emotions are too complex to make this kind of summation. Bergson then reads from documents to try and prove his point. He reads a statement from the chairmen of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency which reads, "I am afraid we have to take it for granted that the extermination of the Jews of Europe will be completed and only remnants will remain." Merlin then states that the Zionists wanted to do something, but "their emotional identification was very weak." Bergson contends that these people should be pitied. Lanzmann and Merlin disagree with this statement. Roll 55 03:11:23 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bergson explains what he did during the war. The task was to save as many Jews as possible and because they did not control the armies they had to get the American government to act. In order to get government action they had to reach out to as many Americans as they could, especially influential figures who could help to mobilize the cause. Bergson gets out of his seat and walks to a wall entirely covered with the newspaper advertisements they printed. There were over ninety ads placed in various newspapers across the country. One reads "Action, Not Pity!" and another details a plan for a 25 square mile camp in Turkey where Jews could go for safety. Bergson tells of a specific ad that was a ballad written by Ben Hecht about the Jews of Europe being murdered. The word Christmas was used in the ad, which caused Jewish leaders to call an emergency meeting to ask them to not run the ad for fear of antisemitism. While in this emergency meeting Bergson agreed to pull the ad if the Jewish leaders would agree to sit down and talk about an actual plan of action to help the Jews, and for a moment Bergson thought he had finally gotten through, but then they would not return his phone calls so he ran the controversial ballad. Bergson sits back in his chair and talks about the march of the rabbis on Washington [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Roll 56 03:22:36 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Bergson describes the arrival of five hundred rabbis for the march in Washington and how effective it was. They walked from Union Station to the Capitol. Members of the Senate, led by Vice President Henry Wallace, suspended their session to come out and meet the rabbis. Merlin then reads the prayer that the rabbis read that morning. Bergson describes how they then walked the distance to the White House. CU on Bergson as he discusses how dangerous fear can be. "When fear is not justified, it becomes anxiety, and this is even more deadly." [CLIP 2 ENDS] The camera slowly pans out so both men can be seen sitting at the table in silence. CU of Merlin and then of Bergson. FILM ID 3257 -- Camera Rolls #50A -- 04:00:11 to 04:05:09 Roll 50A 04:00:11 CU of Merlin touching his face, deep in thought. Camera pans out and back in as Merlin puts his glasses on. Merlin takes off his glasses as he speaks to someone off camera. CU of Bergson in front of a bookshelf in an office in NY. Camera pans out and back in as Bergson looks straight into the camera. CU of Bergson talking to someone off camera. Camera pans out so both men can be seen. Camera pans in on Merlin's face. Camera goes back and forth between Merlin and Bergson. 04:06:07 FILM ID 3258 -- Camera Rolls #56A,57 -- 05:00:16 to 05:06:41 Roll 56A 05:00:17 CUs of advertisements from the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe: "ACTION-NOT PITY Can Save Millions Now!" which features a drawing of a yelling soldier standing over toppled Jews; "FOR SALE to Humanity 70,000 Jews"; "Ballad of the Doomed Jews of Europe"; "32 United Nations- and One Forgotten People"; "Once Again Too Little... But Not Yet Too Late"; "The People Have Spoken But Their Officials Are Still Mute!"; "25 Square Miles or 2,000,000 Lives". 05:03:39 Roll 57 05:03:41 CUs of specific parts of advertisements from the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People of Europe. CU of small paragraphs about the 70,000 Romanian Jews able to leave for fifty dollars apiece. CU of a headline about the failings of the Bermuda Conference. CU of a cartoon showing politicians interested in news about everything but the Jews. CU of two rabbis. CU of pictures of the march of the rabbis in Washington. 05:06:42

    Chelmno (CH)

    Chelmno (CH)

    Film

    Interviews with local Polish people in and around Chelmno, as well as location filming. FILM ID 3767 -- White 72 CH 48-49 Lettre May. CL lit Lanzmann reads a letter from Mr. May regarding operations at Chelmno. FILM ID 4602 -- Foret Chelmno FO 1-4 Interview Uniquement Interview with two men in the forest near Chelmno. The Poles brought SS guards to the forest at night in order to exterminate Jews. Lanzmann asks the men to describe Polish women who worked for the Germans, Jewish victims' belongings, and the occasions when Goering hunted in the forest near Chelmno. FILM ID 4629 -- White 31 CH 97-101, 5-7 Chelmno clairiere Long narrow road with farmland on both sides. Forested area. At Chelmno. Srebnik stands in the field with a solemn demeanor. He paces and looks around. FILM ID 4630 -- White 33 Chelmno l'eglise Church. People walk down a dirt path, ducks. Srebnik walks in front of a barn, large mounds of coal. Rubble. Barn. Chickens. The church surrounded by trees and the surrounding landscape. Clapperboard, church with mounds of coal. Ducks. People walk along the path toward the church. CUs, church EXTs, the steeple and entry. (10:23) Clapperboard. Local Polish people on foot, horse drawn carts, tractors. Camp memorial in Polish and Hebrew. EXTs of the church. FILM ID 4631 -- White 34 CH 26-39 La messe Inside the church, an elderly woman prays. People sit in the pews and children kneel in the aisle. The children are grouped on one side of the church. One of Lanzmann’s crew can be seen with equipment at the left. Members of the church stand and sing. Organist. Bells ring, people begin to exit the church.They gather in groups and socialize. Back inside, the priest leads members in prayer and song. FILM ID 4632 -- White 35 Chelmno la procession A large group of Polish people stand in front of the church and pray before entering. At the same time, everyone kneels. (05:24) The crowd leaves. (08:20) Another group poses in front of the church. Cars and horses outside the church, people pray. FILM ID 4633 -- White 36 Chelmno les alentours. Campagne sans neige Wide shots of outdoor scenes near Chelmno. FILM ID 4634 -- White 70 CH 20-22, 3-4 La Mer Inondation More scenery near Chelmno. FILM ID 4635 -- White 71 CH 28-32 Travelling cheval Filmed from the point of view of a passenger in a horse-drawn carriage heading towards town. Landscapes and small buildings on the side of the road. FILM ID 4636 -- White 73 Travelling le chateau House with red sign. (0.35) Men stand in front of a horse pulling a cart. Taxi drives by. The cart starts moving. (2.07) The steeple of a church. Landscape, green and hilly. Building with sign “Kiosk Spozywczy” [Food Kiosk]. The back of a cart pulled by two horses. (3.03) A full view of the church. (3.58) “CH R.4” is written on a notebook. A grassy area, with a pond in the middle with ducks. (4.58) A horse-drawn cart in front of large mounds. There is a house behind it. (5.47) A two-story barn with stable. (9.25) A single story, stone building with wooden double doors. (10.05) Sign: “sprzet przeciwpożarowy” [fire-fighting equipment]. Church in the distance. FILM ID 4637 -- White 74 CH 14-18 Ecole Eglise Children walk in front of a building, there is a gate around the building. (1.55) A far away view of the road, with a bridge going over a river. Surrounding area looks like marshland. (5.43) A church with a tower, bells. (8.30) A single story building and enclosed bus stop. (10.38) A close look at the church bells. (12.47) The gate in front of the church. Second, smaller gates between the pillars of the main gate and the walls. (14.39) A closer view of the detailing on the sides of the church. (15.55) Ducks in a grassy area between a house and the church. FILM ID 4638 -- White 75 CH 61 Monument stele Fosses. Travelling eglise aux fosses Double doors of a church with the symbol of a shield with two swords crossed behind. Travelling down the road away from the church, and out of the town. (2.37) Travelling through the forest. The forest opens up to a wide clearing. There is a long, raised plot of land surrounded by stones in the clearing. (9.30) There are several long plots of land in this clearing, as well as a stone marker. (12:00) Stone marker with an engraved plaque. It reads: "tu spoczywają prochy 340000 Żydów z Polski Oraz 20000 Żydów Z Innych Krajów Europy" [Ashes rest here. 340,000 Jews from Poland, and 20,000 Jews from other European countries.] (12.40) Boom mic and a clapperboard. Someone says “... walking. Chelmno 15.” There is background noise of walking as they go through the trees. (18.22) Different views of the plots. (26.20) The sun begins to rise over the trees, breaking apart the cloudy day. (32.34) Driving down a road with trees on either side, there is a road that turns towards the left with a sign that says “Majdan,” in front of it. (34.03) A stone slab monument that rests on top of pyramid pillars. Many words are faded, some read: “wzięto nas do lasu gazowano rozstrzeliwano o prosimy ukarali naszych morderców sw naszego gnębienia pr o rozgłoszenie po całym świecie.” FILM ID 4639 -- White 76-77 Chazzettes, couchez soleil, oies-siele eglise Men ride on horse-drawn wagons. (01:06) Sunset. Memorial at Chelmno in Polish and Hebrew. Church. (06:11) INTs, church. FILM ID 4640 -- White 32 Chelmno Clairiere Neige Travelling down a wet road. Blue telephone booth. The road becomes surrounded by trees on either side rather than fields. (3.15) The vehicle turns down a road to the left. There is a small red sign on the right at the beginning of the road. The road is covered in large puddles and mud. (5.06) The vehicle turns right, down a snowy road and even more trees. (5.40) The forest and snow covered ground without the road. (8.17) The forest gives way to open fields. (9.20) Clapperboards. A memorial marker: "tu spoczywają prochy 340000 Żydów z Polski Oraz 20000 Żydów Z Innych Krajów Europy" [Ashes rest here. 340,000 Jews from Poland, and 20,000 Jews from other European countries.] The memorial marker is on a rock in front of an empty field. Several large plots of land are raised and encircled with stones. (11.24) A large memorial stands. (13.57) The double doors of a church with a symbol of a shield and two swords crossing behind.

    Warsaw

    Warsaw

    Film

    Location filming in Warsaw, Poland for SHOAH. Scenes include the ghetto, Mila 18, the cemetery, the railway station, and archival documents and photographs. FILM ID 4709 -- White 39A Varsovie La Gare VAR 61-66 Ticket counter in Warsaw's train station. (00:34) The train schedule. (3:36) A sign that reads: “Gornik. Warszawa WSCH. Częstochowa-Katowice- Gliwice.” The sign is on a train moving out of the station platform. A man is leaning outside the window of the train. (6:00) Trains go past the platform. FILM ID 4710 -- White 39B Varsovie Ville Clapperboard reads: “Varsovie Ghetto.” A monument in a park. (00:48) People walking around in the city next to the park. (3:56) A sign that says: Mordechaja Anielewicza.” (4:48) A sign that says: “cmentarz żydowski w warszawie,” [Jewish Cemetery in Warsaw] as well as the hours it is open. (5:21) Rows and rows of headstones in a cemetery. (8:42) CU, headstone of Adam Czerniakow. Prezes Ghetta Warszawskiego. Zmarl dn. 23 Lipca 1942 R. [President of the Warsaw Ghetto, died on July 23, 1942.] (8.56) The entirety of Czerniakow’s large tombstone. FILM ID 4711 -- White 40 Varsovie Archives Footage of archives: a map showing the Ghetto borders. (1.57) A sign in German demanding the relocation of Jews that do not work for companies; those that volunteer will get three kilograms of bread and one kilogram of jam. It is also promised that families that volunteer together will not be separated. (2:30) A black and white photograph of Bund leader Dr. Leon Fajner. “Mikolaj” 1886-1945. Przywodca Bundu. 2:54) Black and white photograph of Czerniakow in his ghetto office behind a desk with candelabra. (3:20) Clapperboard. Several black and white photographs of Germans with their names and designations written below in pen. (6.16) Nazis with two men in shawls next to a brick wall. (6:31) A black and white photo of a Nazi soldier kneeling with a German shepherd. (7:31) Black and white photograph of men, women, and children getting onto tall carts. Some of them have stars on their jackets. (7.56) Nazi oversees a crowd of people by railcars. (8.12) Nazi soldiers stand in front of a train as people start to get off. (11:58) A black and white photograph of a room filled with shoes. (12:33) Black and white photo of men carrying a body in a white sheet in a cemetery. (12:44) Men standing in a field holding shovels. (12:57) Three engraved cups and two seals. (13:12) Deep burial pit filled with bodies. (13:38) Man sitting alone in a field surrounded by a wire fence. His head is resting on his hands. (13:48) Several black and white photos of Nazis (15:26) Several headshots of men. (16:18) Children sitting at desks in a classroom with a teacher. (17:00) Men stand in front of a large pile of shoes. (17:29) Man brushes the side of a tank with a broom. (17:42) Photo of a man with star badge kneeling on a pile of spokes before a crowd. (17:53) Cutting the hair and beards of two men. (18:08) Long line of people with armbands walk down a city street, carrying heavy bags. (18:45) Large group in a courtyard. (19:11) Women waving goodbye from a ship. (19:22) Black and white photograph of men standing in lines around a courtyard. (19:43) Ten men have been hanged above a pit. (19:56) Rows and rows of skulls and bones. (20:22) A black and white photograph of four corpses. (21:08) People in a line next to a pit. (21:33) Hanged man. (21:48) A black and white photograph of men walking on a road with small children. (21:59) House on fire. FILM ID 4712 -- White 79 Varsovie Mila 18 Anielewicz Warsaw city street, cars parked on both sides. Apartment buildings. (1:43) Sign on the building: “Miła 18 MSM. Starowka.” (3:36) Driving around. (10:44) A man is walking behind a car pushing it down the road while someone else sits in the driver's seat. (13:13) A man pushes a stroller down the street. (15:34) A street sign that says “Mordechaja Anielewicza,” one way and “Esperanto,” another. FILM ID 4713 -- White 80 Varsovie Franciszkanska Two street signs: “Bonifrałerska” and “Franciszkanska”. Cabinet filled with photos on the wall. A city street with cars driving. (1:46) Kids and adults walk by the cabinet. (3:25) A corner of a wall with “Wałowa” and “Franciszkanska”. Women walk down the sidewalk surrounded by tall buildings and a grassy area. (5:05) A tall office building with “Intraco” on the top. Pedestrians, cars, buses. (9:58) Focus on the sign “Franciszkanska.” (10:57) “Taxi” sign and parked cars. (13:43) “Franciszkanska” sign next to a bookshop. (14:34) Crowd of people stand in line in front of a door. FILM ID 4714 -- White 81 Varsovie Trams. Rue. Chutes. Tram tracks with cars and pedestrians. A tram goes by. (1:25) Many people walk across a crosswalk in front of a tram. (2:42) Warsaw city scenes. “Konfekcja” (4:04) Tram tracks. Trams go by. FILM ID 4715 -- White 82.83 Varsovie Rappoport.Plaques.Wovolipki.Wolnosk Park in front of tall buildings. A crowd of people stand in a courtyard. Rappoport Memorial covered in scaffolding. Wreaths at the base. (6:58) Aerial view of Warsaw. People, cars, trams. (8:09) “warszawa centralna” [Warsaw Central] building. (9:08) Tall, ornate building. (9:38) A tram goes by next to an underground walkway and throughout the city. (11:40) More buildings in Warsaw. (16:15) Street scenes. Sign says “Nowolipie.” (16:47) “Zylnia” and “Zelazna.” (20:52) Men stand next to a car talking. Beside them is a small, red memorial with a large cross. (22:43) Apartment buildings with lights on in the evening. (23:43) An overgrown field, with an old three-story building. (25:40) A sign: “Ul. Nowolipki 40.” (27:13) Cobblestone street. (27.42) “Wolnosc.” (29:02) Going into a building and the open courtyard behind. FILM ID 4716 -- White 84 Varsovie Cimetiere Monument Vistule Warsaw city in the distance. (1:19) Vistula river. (3:14) Train. (5:55) Memorial on a wall in Polish and Hebrew: “Z tego miejsca W latach 1942x1943 Hitlerowscy Ludobojcy wywiezli na meczenska smierc do obozow zaglady setki tysiecy sydow. czesc pamieci meczennikow I bojownikow” [From this place In the years 1942x1943, the Nazis took hundreds of thousands of Jews to death in the death camps. In memory of the martyrs and Jewish fighters.] (6:56) A gas station beside a street with tram tracks. (9:00) The memorial. (10:01) Cemetery with graves with Hebrew writing.

    Lublin and Majdanek

    Lublin and Majdanek

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in Lublin and Majdanek camp for SHOAH. FILM ID 4641 -- Lublin Ville (white 11) Empty streets and alleyways in Lublin. FILM ID 4642 -- Majdanek (white 12) Outer perimeter of the concentration camp, Majdanek. Some interior shots. (06:46) Tour group. (10:50) Lanzmann stands in a clearing, speaking French. Camera focuses on interiors. (25:33) Driving around the perimeter of the camp.

    Bedrich Bass - Prague

    Bedrich Bass - Prague

    Film

    Bedrich Bass discusses the present-day Jewish community in Czechoslovakia and the cost of maintaining the old Jewish cemetery in Prague. FILM ID 3888 -- 1,2 son seuls (audio only) FILM ID 3889 -- 4-6

    Belzec

    Belzec

    Film

    Location filming in Belzec, Poland for SHOAH. Film ID 4707 -- Belzec 22-23 Gare. Camp Doubles, Chutes Bte 22 Camp Travelling down a road, trees on either side. Train tracks. Road leads to a metal gate. (1.57) “1942-1943” on the gate. (2.19) Driving down the same road as before, this time getting a clear view of a sign on the right that says “Do Bylego Obozu Zaglady” [to the extermination camp.] Sign includes shield with two swords. (4.41) Railroad tracks and large piles of chopped wood in the BG, CUs. (5.21) Train tracks and old train cars (not on the tracks but beside them). Path of the tracks and the surrounding area. Sequence repeats several times. (6.42) A black locomotive with red details. A flock of ducks waddles around. (7.35) A railroad switch and the track’s divergent path. (8.22) Train goes by. (9.18) Side view of piles of wood. (9.37) A sandy, hilly area. Camera moves several times to show the rest of the hill. (11.21) A walkway between two tall piles of wood. Film ID 4708 -- Belzec 22-23 Gare. Camp Doubles, Chutes Bte 23 Gare A low, teal colored building, with “Belzec” sign. (1.52) Train tracks and trains. People stand around. Station. (2.47) Smoke billows out as train pulls away from the station. (3.28) The Belzec sign. (4.06) A train moves past, smoke billowing from the locomotive. (4.39) Clapperboard: “Bob 95.” Another clapperboard: “Bel 1.” (4.49) A large garden in the countryside. Tracks and railcars. (6.48) The sides of railcars as they move. (7.38) The backs of locomotives, some with smoke coming out of them. (7.55) A flock of ducks standing next to the train tracks. (8.50) The Belzec sign, zooming out to show the train station. (9.09) Railcars moving by. (9.16) Locomotives. A train goes by.

    Yad Vashem

    Yad Vashem

    Film

    University course-debate at Yad Vashem. Shalmi Barmore, the Director of Education, stands in front of an assembly of military students after showing a film. Barmore and several students debate the resistance actions of the Jews during the Holocaust. They show concern that the Holocaust could happen again, in any country, including Israel. A student asks why the world appeared to be uninterested in helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Another student responds that the world was aware of what was occurring, but due to the violent situation they could not do more than accept refugees. A student doesn't think remembering the Holocaust is of utmost importance, since they have personally experienced Jewish resistance during all the wars Israel has fought since World War II. Barmore asks the students if they find kinship towards Holocaust survivors, and if they consider themselves survivors as well. Most of the students respond that they personally do not consider themselves survivors of the Holocaust, but that their people are. Another students believes that the Zionist effort to create the State of Israel was independent of the Holocaust. At a request by Lanzmann, Barmore asks how many students are direct descendants of survivors. Lanzmann is surprised to see so many raised hands. Barmore asks whether they believe it is more likely for Jews to die a violent death in Israel, rather than in the Diaspora. The students respond that such a death in Israel would not be connected to their Jewishness, but a result of their poor relations with a neighboring county. FILM ID 3884 -- Yad Vashem 1-3 FILM ID 3885 -- Yad Vashem 4-5 FILM ID 3886 -- Yad Vashem 6A,6B,6D,6E,6C

    Willy Hilse (audio only)

    Film

    Willy Hilse, a railroad worker at the Auschwitz train station, describes his work and transport arrivals at Auschwitz, shipments of Jewish property, his postwar difficulties, and his reluctance to speak about his experiences again in the future. This interview was recorded in Germany without image or picture. FILM ID 3634 -- Hilse 1 Hilse describes transport arrivals at Auschwitz, including technical details such as the location of the ramp, train platforms, and the separation of men and women and witnessing the arrival of Hungarian Jews in 1944. He goes on to list the nationalities of Jews from other transports and to recall such details as the rail station sign that said "Auschwitz Train Station" and how the trains ran on a schedule. Hilse describes seeing the reactions of people as they exited the trains, his own arrival at Auschwitz in September 1941, a huge fire that burned day and night, and his work in Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks if Hilse recognizes the name "Kanada". Hilse does not, and explains the group's function. Hilse and his wife share their thoughts on how much railway workers and other people knew about Auschwitz. FILM ID 3635 -- Hilse 2 -- sound quality is poor Hilse expresses worry about the film being shown in Germany. Lanzmann says that the film is only for France and that Hilse is not at fault for wartime events at Auschwitz. Hilse says that he was questioned about his experiences before a Frankfurt judge and he and his wife explain the fallout, such as German newspapers holding him responsible for the transports and portraying him as the biggest murderer of the twentieth century. Lanzmann asks Hilse if he knew about the mass murders and, while Hilse says that he knew that trains came in every day, he says that he did not know what happened in the camp. He adds that he was glad when he was moved to the city of Oppeln because life in Auschwitz was hard for Germans and Poles as well as for Jews. Lanzmann asks if he saw shipments of Jewish property brought in and Hilse answers that he does not know of any money or jewelry, but that he once saw shipments of prisoners' shaven hair being prepared for processing. Hilse recalls that it was terribly hot when the Hungarian transports arrived and that 60-70 people were in each car (elderly people, women who had given birth, and people who had died en route). Hilse describes the conditions and cleaning of the wagons after the people were brought to camp. FILM ID 3636 -- Hilse 3 Hilse explains how trains pulled in to the Auschwitz train station, his busy work schedule keeping track of any irregularities with the trains and the station, and walking past the station twice a day. Lanzmann asks Hilse about where the trains came from, who and what kinds of items were transported, and the "special trains" [Sonderzüge] for Jews. Hilse describes the return of empty trains before Lanzmann asks if he knew the meanings of various abbreviations such as PO [Polen/ Poles] and PJ [polnische Juden/ Polish Jews]. Hilse recalls a time that a woman on a train begged him for water to give to her small child. Despite Lanzmann's further questions and his telling Hilse that he is one of the few eyewitnesses, Hilse says that he does not want to discuss his experiences any longer. Lanzmann insists that he should consider additional interview time as Hilse will earn money, but Hilse says he does not want it- instead, he wants quiet and to not be bothered about his Auschwitz experiences anymore. Lanzmann asks about Hilse's schedule the next day before telling him that he will call after Hilse and his wife attend church. Hilse asserts that he has no more to say and then begins to describe his current medical issues.

    Richard Rubenstein

    Richard Rubenstein

    Film

    Richard Rubenstein, an American professor, relates his position on stateless people, bureaucracy, and the role of churches during the Holocaust. FILM ID 3871 -- Camera Rolls TALA 1-5 Allies CR1 Professor Rubenstein begins the interview by describing the beauty of Wakulla Springs, near Tallahassee, Florida, where the interview will take place. Lanzmann asks if it is a fitting place to talk about the Holocaust, to which Rubenstein answers it is as fitting as any other place, as the Holocaust was so unnatural and destructive. 01:02:22 CR2 He implies the similarities of the sanctuary in which the bird and alligator species live to the plight of the Holocaust survivors. Lanzmann asks Rubenstein to explain the central theme of his book, which regards the stateless Jews directly preceding the Holocaust. Rubenstein believes that a fundamental step which allowed the Holocaust to occur was the Jews being denied their political rights. Normal protections provided by laws no longer applied to them. Rubenstein mentions that some people believe the Germans violated God's law. 01:11:05 CR4 This violation against God's law held no punishment as those who were regarded as interpreters of God's will did not criticize the Holocaust at the time. There was silence throughout Europe in the churches and other religious places. In some European countries before WWII, it was better to be a criminal - to be a person who was entitled to rights and treated as a human being - than to be a law-abiding stateless person. Rubenstein discusses the problems societies face with over population. Hitler studied German population movements to Argentina, and was thus aware of the strains a surplus of people would impose on the economy of a country. Rubenstein points out that Hitler, as well as Himmler, Heydrich and other leading Nazi officials, could themselves have fallen into the category of surplus urbanites. However, they seized total control and thus had the power to decide who was surplus. While Jews contributed to German society in a variety of professions, the non-Jewish lower middle class was at high risk economic instability and saw the Jews as foreigners and competitors. 01:22:17 CR5 Rubenstein disagrees with Lanzmann when he says that Western democracies showed humanitarian concern for the Jewish refugees at the Evian Conference. He believes their concern to have been for show and a means to placate one another. From 1936 to 1938, Poland sought to get rid of their Jewish population, going as far as establishing an apartheid between Christian and Jewish Poles. Lanzmann asks if the Holocaust could have been avoided had the Western powers and Latin America opened their doors. All Rubenstein can say with certainty is that the situation would have been radically different. He also believes that the British government saw the elimination of the Jews as a positive. Far fewer sought refuge in Palestine, which at the time was under British rule. FILM ID 3872 -- Camera Rolls TALA 6-10 Allies CR6 In May 1939 Britain declared, with the exception of 75,000 people over the next five years, that Jews could not enter Palestine. According to Rubenstein, this decision was a death sentence and that those responsible for the decision were just as culpable for the Holocaust as the Germans. Jewish resistance in Poland was not possible, as Jews there did not have the support of the population, who themselves also viewed the extermination of the Jews of Poland as a positive. Rubenstein also claims that Roosevelt saw a large influx of European Jews into the United States as detrimental to his political coalition, and went as far as to prevent the Jewish settlement in Palestine from achieving political independence. The bombing of Auschwitz and the railroad would have been symbolic, and would have demonstrated to the world that what the Germans were doing was horrific. As this was not done, the Germans did not see that the murder of European Jewry was a top issue with the Allies. Rubenstein explains the fundamental differences between the Jewish and Christian religions, and that that these differences led the Christians of Europe to view the Jews as dangerous to their system of beliefs. Consequently, they had to be contained, converted or expelled. CR8 01: 13:08 CR9 01:13:20 CR10 01:13:38 Although expulsion of Jewish culture and religion from Christian Europe was supported by many church leaders, they did not understand that this would involve murder. While many individuals endeavored to save Jews, the overall policy in many countries was to allow the extermination of Jews to occur. Rubenstein discusses how the Holocaust was a bureaucratic process from start to finish. It began with the legal division of Jews from their Christian German counterparts and encompassed the collaboration of the post offices, banks and railroads. One did not have to hate Jews to kill them, they simply had to perform their job under a bureaucracy. In this way, people were able to evade responsibility for what their actions ultimately did. The combination of German cold-blooded rationality and Polish hatred for the Jews made the Final Solution a possibility. FILM ID 3873 -- Camera Rolls TALA 4A,6A,7A,11A Reserve Tallahassee Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs. FILM ID 3874 – Camera Rolls Coupe 6B,11 Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs, as well as CUs of Rubenstein and Lanzmann. FILM ID 3586 -- Son Seul

    Alfred Spiess

    Alfred Spiess

    Film

    Alfred Spiess was a prosecutor of the Treblinka trial. He talks about the reorganization of the camp and gas chambers. FILM ID 3895 -- CR 1-4 Lanzmann asks Spiess how he felt when he was given the task of conducting an investigation for the Treblinka trial. Spiess says the trial presented many challenges; one primary concern was how to care for the witnesses. He created a model of the camp to be used for reference throughout the trial since, unlike other camps, Treblinka had been almost entirely destroyed. They created a sketch of the camp which Franz Stangl claimed was 100% accurate. In all three of the camps constructed under Operation Reinhardt (Be??ec, Sobibór, and Treblinka), a wall separated the gassing and cremations area from the reception. There was disagreement during the trial concerning the total number of people murdered at Treblinka. The three camps of Operation Reinhardt were exclusively extermination camps. Treblinka was constructed to exterminate the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto. Operation Reinhardt lasted from spring 1942 to fall 1943, and Spiess estimates the total number of deaths from all three camps to be between 1.8 and 2 million people. The actions carried out under Operation Reinhardt were disorganized. The first Commandant of Treblinka, Irmfried Eberl, allowed more transports than the camp had the capacity to kill. Trains arriving at Treblinka had to wait for Jews in previous trains to be "processed" before they could pull up to the ramp. As a result, many people died standing, packed in the train cars. Spiess tells Lanzmann a mountain of corpses 200 meters long and 2 meters tall was formed along the ramp. The Jews were told they were being sent to the east to be re-settled. The sick and frail were taken to a "hospital," called the Lazaret, with the Red Cross emblem on the outside, where they were shot in the neck. They were taken to the Lazaret so as not to impede the smooth process of the mass gassings. SS officer Willi Mentz carried out the shootings in the Lazaret. FILM ID 3896 -- CR 5-7 When the leader of Operation Reinhardt, Odilo Globocnik, visited Treblinka and saw the state of disarray the camp was in, he fired Eberl and put Franz Stangl and Christian Wirth in charge. Larger gas chambers were constructed and the transports of Jews began again. Stangl made the decision to keep the experienced work units for longer periods of time because they worked faster. Most of the camp was burned down during the revolt on August 2, 1943, with the exception of the gas chambers, which were made of concrete. Murder in the gas chambers was carried out with the use of a Russian tank engine. It took about 25 minutes to murder those in a gas chamber, and occasionally victims would survive the gassing only to be shot once the doors were opened. Spiess describes how the Jews were processed upon entering the camp. Before entering the gas chambers, the Jews had to hand their valuables over at a "cashier's counter" headed by Franz Suchomel. The victims were forced to run through a path in the tube, called the "Way to Heaven" by the prisoners, which brought them to the gas chambers. The tube had many turns so the prisoners could not see the dead bodies being removed from the chamber. The entrance to the gas chamber was flanked by flower pots to keep up the pretense that the prisoners were entering a bathhouse. With the possibility of the Allies approaching in spring 1943, the bodies of the murdered victims began to be destroyed. Spiess describes the cremation process and destruction of the camp by the Germans. The last prisoners in the camp after the revolt on August 2, 1943 were liquidated on November 30, 1943. At the beginning of the Treblinka trial in 1964, there were 53 survivors out of the one million who entered Treblinka's gates. Spiess states that if it were not for the revolt there would be no survivors. Spiess believes the final push for a revolt came from the prisoners who had been brought to Treblinka from the Warsaw ghetto immediately following the uprising. FILM ID 3897 -- CR 8-10 700 prisoners escaped and sought refuge in the surrounding woods, but only 70 escaped the German troops who were called to track down the prisoners. Spiess finds it symbolic of the German master race mentality that the SS could not imagine that the oppressed, beaten Jews could initiate and succeed in a revolt. Spiess says there is a difference between the Germans who shrank from killing, and those for whom murdering became a normality. The former participated in the Nazi regime, while the latter willingly identified with the regime's will to murder. In some cases, a defendant was sentenced to life imprisonment because he identified with the regime's will to murder. Operation Reinhardt was composed of 100 to 120 German SS. The Germans took supervisory roles in the camps while Ukrainians and Jewish prisoners worked under their command. Jewish workers in the camps were replaceable and lived in a constant state of deception and terror, which made resistance nearly impossible. The SS of Operation Reinhardt came from a variety of vocations, most having previously worked on the T4 euthanasia project where they became accustomed to murder. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss the culpability of those who knew less than others about what was occurring under Operation Reinhardt. FILM ID 3898 -- CR 11-12 At the close of Operation Reinhardt, Globocnik wrote an account summarizing it's economic contribution. From currency, precious metals, gold, clothing, and other valuables stolen from the Jews and other victims, a total of 100 million Reichsmarks were placed into the Reichsbank. The number of people murdered, however, was not recorded. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss how much a person working in Department 33 at the East Railway, local citizens, and others throughout Europe knew of the camps. Fear of being accused of spreading atrocity propaganda prevented many who knew of the extermination camps from sharing their knowledge. FILM ID 3899 -- CR 12A-13

    Robert Reams - Fish(ing Party)

    Robert Reams - Fish(ing Party)

    Film

    Ambassador Robert Borden Reams was interviewed about American diplomats during a fishing and golfing trip in Panama City, Florida. Ambassador Reams agreed to meet with Lanzmann on the condition that there would be no formal interview, and that topics such as the Bermuda Conference, governmental policies and the State Department during World War II would not discussed. He refuses to tell Lanzmann why he doesn't want to talk about them. Much of Lanzmann's and the Ambassador's time together is spent fishing and golfing, although he eventually opens up to Lanzmann's questions. FILM ID 3875 -- Camera Rolls 1-9 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:25:59 In Florida, several takes of Lanzmann driving to Ambassador’s home. 01:05:00 Lanzmann and Ambassador Reams fish, various shots, some takes without sound, some shots include Mrs. Dotty Reams fishing. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II. FILM ID 3876 -- Camera Rolls 10-16 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:13:34 Various shots of the Ambassador’s home in Florida, “REAMS 130” sign, and Dotty driving a golf cart. Lanzmann golfs with Ambassador Reams and his wife Dotty. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II. FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 20.24 Reams interview Peche — 00:59:50 to 01:18:28 Inside the Ambassador’s home, Lanzmann speaks to Reams and his wife Dotty, who are seated in red club chairs. At Lanzmann’s request, Dotty reads the text of a certificate from President Kennedy on the wall in their home. Reams says he is very fond of Lanzmann, but refuses to discuss the topic of diplomatic affairs during World War II; they talk about making good martinis before Lanzmann tries to convince him to relate an anecdote about another person who “took part in this film.” 01:10:18 CR24 Reams addresses his role as Ambassador to Syria. They discuss the roles of Breckinridge Long (Assistant Secretary of State), Cordell Hull, and Sumner Wells and the divisions of the Department of State. They talk about Long’s infamous diary and Hull’s Jewish wife. FILM ID 3878 -- Camera Rolls 21-23 Reams interview Documents — 01:00:00 to 01:03:19 Mute shots of a wall inside Reams’ home with framed diplomatic certificates from Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy as well as a portrait of Reams during World War II and guns. FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 25-27 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:23:16 They continue talking about Breckinridge Long and his diary. Dotty was one of Long's personal secretaries. Reams says that Long felt unjustly treated. Reams explains his role in the European Division covering the affairs of Greenland, Denmark, South Africa, as well as the refugee problem. 01:05:28 CR26 Patriotism is very important to Reams. He says he is not an isolationist, rather a realist. 01:11:21 CR27 Reams compliments Lanzmann’s film crew. Lanzmann presses Reams about working on the refugee problem. Reams was made Secretary of the Intergovernmental Committee during World War II. He claims the committee didn’t exist, that he had a title but no power or function. Lanzmann asks what Washington DC was like in 1942 and 1943 for those in positions to make political decisions; for example, what was the meaning of Auschwitz? He doesn’t remember. In the first half of 1942, the Ambassador was interned in Germany dealing with war rations; he had been taken from Denmark with his staff as the Chargés d'Affaires of the American Legation in Copenhagen. In April 1943, Reams was sent as a Representative of the United States to the Bermuda Conference; he does not remember whether he knew that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising occurred at the same time. He alludes to the fact that he knew what was happening to the Jews of Europe as Chef de Cabinet for Jimmy Burns, but Lanzmann’s questions do not trigger strong feelings or memories from that the time. Lanzmann again asks what the meaning of Auschwitz was for Reams, living peacefully in Washington. Reams says “I simply cannot answer” but admits he’s afraid of an atomic war.

    Henry Feingold

    Henry Feingold

    Film

    Henry Feingold, author and professor of American Jewish History and Holocaust Studies, discusses, in an interview with Claude Lanzmann, the American response to the Holocaust with particular importance on the failure to admit refugees and to create a resettlement option. FILM ID 4606 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 145-148 146 (01:00:43) Claude Lanzmann and Henry Feingold sit at a cluttered office table, in Feingold’s New York City apartment. Feingold begins by discussing the unique and even affluent status of American Jewry as an ethnic group during the 1930s. He then raises the question why American Jewry was not able garner support from the Roosevelt Administration to act on the rescue issue, particularly provided that several Jews were in Roosevelt’s inner circle. He says that the several Jewish communities that existed in the United States during this period were divided on the approach to tackle the crisis. (01:02:34) Lanzmann questions Feingold to clarify the terms Uptown and Downtown Jews. Feingold explains that it is an old classification that differentiates the original Jewish migration that moved to the West side known as Uptown Jews and the new arrivals known as the Downtown Jews. (01:03:55) Discusses shtadlanut as a traditional form of soft diplomacy and how the American Jews formed a Kehila. Points out that American Jewry had a degree of power that gave them responsibility, but to claim American Jews betrayed European Jews is unjust. (01:07:55) Discusses that that the “spirit of civilization” was not mobilized by Jews. 147 (01:10:30) Discusses the common, antisemitic illusion that Jews held excessive power within society and aspired to ‘rule the world’ which Feingold rebukes by claiming the Holocaust is the surest evidence that it is indeed just an illusion. (01:12:10) Further discusses the “Jewish love affair with Roosevelt” and notes that although American Jews had political leverage, it was a disproportionate amount unable of changing major policy. Claims that the American Jewry treated not as badly as other ethnic minorities such as the Germans and the Irish from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. (01:15:30) Lanzmann then questions if American Jewry was afraid of antisemitism in the 1930s. Feingold explains how this brings up the underlying topic of what power American Jewry really had during this period. Claims that antisemitism coupled with isolationism and the followers of Charles Lindbergh legitimized the anti rescue and anti refugee view of the general American public. (01:18:56) Feingold adds that it should also be noted that the American Jewish community in 1938 was American first then Jewish, thus at times more concerned with domestic issues. (01:19:34) He explains from a bureaucratic level that the State Department led by Breckinridge Long made it extremely difficult to obtain a United States visa in 1940. 148 (01:20:43) Feingold touches on Roosevelt and the refugee issue further with the notion of “politics of gesture”. (01:21:50) He provides the example of the Evian Conference where none of the attending countries had the intention of raising refugee quotas. He explains it was a policy intended to seduce the the Jewish voting public and that in reality did little to help the European Jews. (01:24:30) Discusses James Dunn who was an undersecretary at the State Department who is quoted to have had the power of indefinitely postponing immigrant entrance into the United States. He explains that a common narrative used by the State Department and even Roosevelt was that German spies had infiltrated the refugee stream. (01:25:55) Describes American consulates in 1938 and 1939 as unreceptive to issuing European Jews visas. Gives one example of a Polish Jew who is told to come back in eight years with another request. Says that today as it was then, the American Jewry is powerless based on the lack of options open to the community. FILM ID 4607 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 149,151,153 149 (02:00:18) Discusses the ‘very’ American idea of philanthropy and how it was often associated to Jews and money. 150 (02:02:45) He explains that the stereotype of Jews being wealthy was shared among Nazi Germany, Great Britain, and the United States. (02:02:54) He adds that Roosevelt is quoted wanting a list of 1,000 of the richest Jews in the United States to pay for a new “United States of Africa”. Says that many believed Jewish wealth could bail out the Jewish problem. (02:06:20) Explains how the Roosevelt Administration prefered the euphemized term “political refugee” in place of Jew. Adds that one proposal of getting money out of the German Jewry pioneered by finance minister Hjalmar Schacht was to use the German Jewry as ransom. 151 (02:14:40) Makes a key point on if there had been a successful resettlement effort, then perhaps history would be different. Discusses how the initial phase of inaction by world leaders to save the Jews propelled Nazis to carry out the Holocaust. 152 (02:17:30) Feingold goes on to discuss different resettlement ideas ranging from Alaska to Tanganyika in Africa that were disliked by Zionists. (02:20:50) Discusses the emergence of the group referred to as “territorialists” which was an ancient enemy to Zionists. 153 (02:25:45) Discusses how the 1943 Bergson group separated the homeland issue from the rescue issue and gave priority to the rescue issue. Further explains how the revisionists viewed resettlement broadly as the Zionists were exclusive to Palestine. (02:27:34) Explains from the Allied point of view the fastest way to save the Jews was through victory and nothing could impede that including rescue attempts, thus, the rescue of the Jews was never a war aim. Further discusses the importance of the Holocaust in World War II and how its effects reached beyond just Jews. FILM ID 4608 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 154-158, 160 Coupe 154 (03:01:00) Discusses the growth of Zionism in response to the Holocaust. (03:07:40) Describes the Bermuda Conference in 1943 which Feingold describes as a “mockery conference”. 155 (03:08:30) Describes the conference as a continuation of Evian and the “politics of gesture” where there was a deliberate attempt to do nothing to help the Jews. 156 (03:10:00) Claims that at the Bermuda Conference, the U.S. and British delegates agreed to ‘rescue’ Jews from North Africa rather than Hitler’s death camps. Explains that the Allies did not want the war to appear to be about the Jews. (03:10:50) Describes the old euphemism of a refugee problem compared to the Jewish problem. 157 (03:13:10) Explains that food could not be sent to the camps because it was viewed as the Germans’ obligation to feed the prisoners and that negotiations with Berlin were never considered an option because it would be viewed as “criminal” to negotiate with Nazis. (03:15:10) Claims that since a press release was not released from the Bermuda Conference, Jewish public opinion became more concerned and active which resulted in action from congress. (03:17:20) Describes that in a sense with the Final Solution, the Germans were solving a problem for the Western world of what to do with the Jews. States that “every Jew killed in a death camp in the East meant one less Jew who required a haven in the West”. (03:18:40) Discusses Roosevelt and the push to devise the refugee center in Oswego, New York. Assess the efficacy of the War Refugee Board particularly with the Jews of Budapest. (03:21:35) Discusses the concept of bombing Auschwitz. Explains reasons given by the Allies for choosing not to bomb such as the creation of a greater terror. 158 (03:23:00) Further explains that the bombing of Auschwitz was viewed as “doubtful in efficacy” even though Allied planes were bombing other sites five miles away. (03:24:30) Discusses in March 1943 that the rescue advocates with their twelve point program at Madison Square Garden failed to raise the idea of retaliatory bombing. 160 (03:26:50) Camera turns to Lanzmann.

    Helena Pietyra - Auschwitz

    Helena Pietyra - Auschwitz

    Film

    Helena Pietyra describes her experience living near the city of Auschwitz, Poland. FILM ID 3448 -- Interview Auschwitz Pietyra -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:04 to 01:24:13 Roll 1 Madam Pietyra sits in the living room of the apartment she occupies in Auschwitz. Pietyra is citizen of Auschwitz. She was born in Auschwitz and has never left. She recounts that Auschwitz was a predominantly Jewish city before the war. Most of the city was occupied by the Jewish citizens, including the apartment Pietyra lives in, while only a few buildings belonged to Catholic citizens. Overall, the Jews were liked. The non-Jewish citizens liked their Jewish neighbors because they allowed customers to purchase goods on credit and did not charge any interest. There was a synagogue and a Jewish cemetery in the city. Both were damaged during the war, and while the synagogue was completely destroyed the cemetery remains, though it is no longer in use. The Nazis destroyed the graves in the cemetery, and then the houses. 01:06:49 Roll 2 Deportation of the Jews of Auschwitz started in 1940. According to Madam Pietyra, they took with them only what they could carry. This explains the presence of furniture from the Jewish inhabitants when Pietyra moved into her apartment in 1940. The Jews who were deported from Auschwitz, as well as Jews from all over Europe, were brought to Auschwitz camp for extermination. Madam Pietyra and the citizens of Auschwitz knew that Jews were being gassed in the Auschwitz concentration camp, because Polish railway men who worked there would leak information. Sometimes when Pietyra took the train, she would pass train carriages in which Jews were being transported to Auschwitz. She remembers seeing the barbed wire in the windows and the faces of the Jews behind. When the wind blew from the west, the citizens of Auschwitz could smell the odor of burning bodies. Yet if an outsider visited the city and inquired about the smell, the citizens would not tell them what the cause was, as it was dangerous to speak the truth. The resistance was active and Pietyra's brother was a member. After the Jews were deported, the Polish population made up the majority of the city. The Germans lived in houses. 01:17:23 Roll 3 Lanzmann asks Madam Pietyra if she knew at the time how the Jews were being killed. Pietyra states that at the time she and other citizens of Auschwitz knew Jews were being gassed and killed in other ways. They knew the extermination of the Jews was on a large scale, since convoys arrived all the time to the camp. Though it was painful to stay in the city after the war, Pietyra claims that almost everyone stayed in order to make a living. Catholic cemeteries were bombed by the English during the war, as there were munition stores underneath. The camp itself was never bombed. The city of Auschwitz remains very similar to how it was before the war, except for a German bunker which was turned into a store. A member of Lanzmann's camera crew says at 01:23:28 "Auschwitz marketplace general sound atmosphere." Sounds from the street.

    Becher - Mount Kisco / Weissmandel

    Becher - Mount Kisco / Weissmandel

    Film

    An Orthodox Jew affiliated with Weissmandel's Yeshiva in Mount Kisco in New York, Mr. Becher talks about Rabbi Weissmandel, the "Blood for Goods" and other rescue efforts, and the Orthodox prohibition on violent resistance. FILM ID 3820 – Camera Rolls NY 82-87 -- Becher NY 82 Mr. Becher explains that Rabbi Weissmandel was the first person to explore the idea of bribing the Nazis in order to save the Jews. Rabbi Weissmandel began rescuing Jews from Slovakia in 1942. Religious Jews were opposed to the ban on German goods initiated by Rabbi Stephen Wise in 1933. Becher says Jews were religiously opposed to displays of force against Germans and the Jews living in Germany. 10:21 NY 84,85,86 Becher claims that the boycott of Germany and Rabbi Wise's declarations of war in 1938 both contributed to the Holocaust. Zionist Jews in Palestine collaborated with the Nazis through the creation of the Haavara Agreement which permitted German Jews to immigrate to Palestine if they agreed to leave their belongings and money in Germany. Lanzmann asks Becher what he would have done, as an Orthodox Jew, if the Nazis had humiliated him the same way they did to many Orthodox Jews during the war. After Becher does not answer, Lanzmann asks if he thinks the war would have been different if Jews had weapons to resist. 21:35 NY 87,89,90 Becher discusses the differences between the holidays Chanukah and Purim. According to Becher, Jews can only fight back when their faith is in danger, and the Nuremberg laws persecuted Jews personally, rather than the religion of Judaism. FILM ID 3821 – Camera Rolls NY 88,89,90 -- Coupes NY 88 Must, LS Lanzmann and Becher talking in the street, CUs. Becher walking along the road. FILM ID 3822 – Camera Rolls NY 91 -- Coupes NY 91 Becher thinks that the Diaspora has made it impossible for Judaism to be wiped out. Weissmandel was able to negotiate for the rescue of Slovakian Jews by convincing the Nazis that if they happened to lose the war, allowing some Jews out would help their image. Nazi SS official Dieter Wisliceny agreed for the price of $50,000 USD to divert several of the transports going to Poland.

    Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering - Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto (New York)

    Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering - Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto (New York)

    Film

    Lore Oppenheimer and Herman Kempinsky (now Ziering), co-presidents of the Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto, share their experiences during the Holocaust. They address the conflicts between German Jews and Ostjuden, deportation to the Polish border in 1938, propaganda, arrival in Riga and witnessing evidence of murdered Latvian Jews, and life in Riga ghetto. Mr. Ziering conceals his face during the interview which takes place at the 1978 Society conference in New York city. Lanzmann also briefly speaks in German with Friedrich Baer, a WWI veteran frontline soldier, who attended the conference. FILM ID 3804 -- Camera Rolls NY 70,71 NY 70 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells Lanzmann that she was born in Hannover, Germany, and that her father thought he was safe when the Nazis came because he had served in WWI; also, he was German and didn't want to leave Germany. By some coincidence, the father was not sent to a concentration camp during Kristallnacht, but things soon got worse and he had to give up his business. By the time he got an affidavit to emigrate to the US, it was too late. Also, the parents' efforts to get the children out with the Kindertransport failed. By 1941, like other Jews, the family was crammed into a few "Jewish houses", while many other Jews lived in former schools, even in cemeteries. Suicides were common then - about a dozen every night. She cites the restrictions on Jews before the 1941 deportations - wearing the yellow star, carrying an identification card marked with a "J" and the added name "Sarah" or "Israel", depending on gender, and being banned from sidewalks and most stores; schools had been closed and synagogues burned. NY 71 Lanzmann talks with Mr. Ziering, whom he calls Mr. Kempinsky, about his recollections. Ziering tells of being born in Kassel, Germany in 1926 to parents who came from Poland after WWI. By 1933, students were already segregated and he had to attend a Jewish school. Coming from Poland of German heritage, he occasionally used a Yiddish word and was taunted by German Jewish teachers and fellow students as Ostjuden; "East Jews" were blamed by German Jews for all the problems facing Jews. Mr. Ziering's father did not feel endangered by the Nazis because his father had served in WWI and was a businessman. Mrs. Oppenheimer confirms what her husband said about East Jews. Mr. Ziering tells about being deported in 1938 before Kristallnacht. The parents were stateless, as they had neither Polish nor German citizenship. With one hour to pack, they and 500 other families were sent on a two-day train to the Schneidemühl camp on the Polish border in Zbaszyin. FILM ID 3805 -- Camera Rolls NY 72-75 NY 72 Mr. Ziering explains how his family's statelessness came about. Their passports had to be sent to the Polish Consulate in Frankfurt for visa extension, but were never returned. Lanzmann calls this escalating discrimination "a kind of preliminary for the extermination". Mr. Ziering tells of the effect of the daily insults and propaganda on him as a child. He began to believe that there really was something wrong with Jews the way they were portrayed in the media and the antisemitic newspaper The Stürmer. When his family could not get into Poland, they were given the option of paying for the return trip to Kassel; they were on the last transport back to Germany before the border was closed. A month later, the men were rounded up again, taken to the border, chased each night by dogs and shot at by police on both sides of the border. The father was able to escape and return to Kassel, then was able to get a visa to England, but could not get the family over before war broke out. His mother, brother and he were considered to be Polish citizens and had to report to the police station every morning. All three had to state their names repeatedly, as for instance, "I am the Jew, Hermann Israel Kempinsky", then were mocked and insulted by the police sergeant. NY 73 Mr. Ziering repeats his story about the daily ritual at the police station. He had to stand at attention, look at the sergeant and other offices, and say his name in various denigrating ways, such as "I am the Jewish pig Hermann Israel Kempinsky". This went on for two years for his family. The police would remind them of what happened to the Jewish student, Grynspan, an incident the Nazis used as justification for Kristallnacht. Mr. Ziering tells about the SA breaking into and plundering Jewish stores, setting the synagogue on fire and, the next day, rounding up community leaders to clean up the mess. After that, all Jewish stores were marked with a sign "Jew" to keep non-Jews away. Mrs. Oppenheimer has similar memories of Kristallnacht: many men were deported to camps and people's apartments were destroyed, but by luck, her father and their apartment were overlooked. Her father died doing heavy construction work in Hannover in 1941. After being deported to Riga, she and her brother were sent to the concentration camp Stutthof and from there to Dachau, where her brother was killed in 1945. Lanzmann asks both of them about daily life during the Nazi time. Alternately, they describe the restrictions of shopping only at Jewish stores, getting inferior food, having to live in segregated ghetto-type housing, and all males over fourteen having to work. Walking to school, Mr. Ziering was easily recognized by Hitler Youth who would attack and beat him. NY 75 Mr. Ziering repeats his account of abuse by Hitler Youth members with no intervention from witnesses. Basic food and heating materials were harder to come by, so he and his brother would pick up coal in a cart to bring home or deliver it to old people. Lanzmann returns to the topic of suicides. Mr. Ziering said those were mostly Jews born in Germany, who could not believe what was happening. In an incident in the concentration camp Kaiserwald in Riga, a German Jewish prisoner said with pride, "those are our planes flying overhead," which was incomprehensible to the 14-year old Ziering, given the terrible treatment by the Nazis. Mrs. Oppenheimer repeats her certainty about the dozens of suicides every day in Hannover - proof being the dates on the cemetery gravestones. She goes on to describe the crowded, awful conditions of sharing a room with 15 to 20 people and more in the gymnasium. Since all 1600 Jews were living in 14 houses, it was easy to round them up in December 1941 for the transports to the East. Mr. Ziering was also deported at that time. FILM ID 3806 -- Camera Rolls NY 76-79 NY 76 Mr. Ziering talks about being in Frankfurt for training to become an auto mechanic and how frustrating he found the restrictions on Jews of no movies, no soccer, no swimming. One time he sneaked into the movie "Jud Süss". He got the German view of Jews inside the movie theater where it became clear that people fully believed the inhuman stereotypes of Jews they saw on the screen. He returned to Kassel to join his mother and brother for the deportation to the East. Lanzmann asks what "the East" meant to him. Mr. Ziering admits it was frightening not to know, but thought they would all work in a factory. He reads the German order to report. Every deportee had to make a complete list of possessions and give up all valuables for which he/she was give a receipt - a highly ironic exchange - theft with a receipt. Lanzmann asks about the complicity of the Jewish Council. Mr. Ziering says it was the Nazi's method of 'divide and conquer', pitting Jews against each other, but giving benefits to a certain few. Mrs. Oppenheimer adds that the Jewish Council members were not deported at that time, though by 1943, they were sent to Theresienstadt. NY 77 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of her mother's attempt in 1940 to get she and her brother out on the Kindertransport to relatives in Amsterdam. Though the head of the Jewish Council assured her that the children would be put on the list, when the time came, they could not go; the suspicion is that he substituted his own children. Yet these children later came back to Hannover and were deported to Auschwitz, where, being twins, they were subject to medical experiments. Lanzmann asks for more information about the deportations in December 1941. Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of all the Jews being called to the Horticulture School in Ahlem, held there for three days and giving up all valuables. Some did not have to go, mostly those in mixed marriages. The rest were shipped in regular trains but it was very crowded, the heat was turned off and they had only the food they had brought along. Arriving at the Scirotawa station, SS men yelled at them and marched them off to a Riga ghetto. NY 78,79 Mr. Ziering says that they arrived on December 12. NY 79 Mr. Ziering describes the arrival in Riga, where a SS man marched them to the ghetto surrounded by barbed wire; they saw blood on the ground and saw bodies outside. Inside the apartments everything had been left in disarray, even with food, sabbath candles and a prayerbook still on the table, a shocking, incomprehensible situation. Lanzmann asks how he found out what had happened. Mr. Ziering describes slipping under the wire with other teens to another ghetto where he spoke Yiddish with Latvian Jews and learned that a few days prior, the Jews in his ghetto had been taken to the forest and killed with machine guns. When he reported this to the German Jews of his transport, they wouldn't believe him. Lanzmann states that the killings had started on November 30, 1941. FILM ID 3807 -- Camera Rolls NY 80-81 NY 80 Mr. Ziering tells of the some Latvian Jews resenting the German Jews, fearful that these would replace them at their work stations because of their ability to speak German. During weeks of sitting around, he and his friends would sneak out of the ghetto and scavenge for food. Sometimes they found frozen potatoes, which they ate, despite the awful taste. Once, when carrying a sack of potatoes back into the ghetto, a guard caught his group and marched them to the cemetery, known to be the execution place. Just as his group was all lined up, it began to rain and while the SS guards put on their raincoats, Mr. Ziering ducked behind a monument and survived. Eventually, the deportees were given work outside the ghetto as tailors and mechanics, but Mr. Ziering does not understand why the Latvian Jews, who were more skilled at these trades, were killed. He goes on to describe the naiveté of the German Jews who considered themselves safe from harm by virtue of being German and following the rules. But if people became ill or could no longer work, a truck would come and ostensibly take them to a fish factory where work was easier; in reality, they were taken to the Forest Romboli and shot. Their clothes came back and were sent to Germany for charity. Mrs. Oppenheimer talks about food being the key to ghetto residents' survival - whatever they could smuggle out was exchanged for food from the outside population. But anyone caught with smuggled food would be shot. NY 81 Mrs. Oppenheimer reflects on how much harder it must have been for the parents to be deported - torn away from everything they had - than for young people like her. She was not able to talk to her mother about it later, as her father had died before the deportation and her brother after. Mr. Ziering agrees - he lived for the moment and didn't worry as his mother did. He talks about wanting to get even and doing so by breaking the Germans' furniture when cleaning it, burning hundred dollar bills, and burying the gold he and his friends found. Sabotage gave them the will to fight and resist. Lanzmann asks about the hangings they all had to watch. Mrs. Oppenheimer says that those caught exchanging goods were killed - men were hanged and women shot. Everyone coming back from work had to look at the body hanging from the gallows for three days. If a person didn't look up, the SS would hit them. Mr. Ziering reflects that no matter what a person did, it was the wrong thing; if he escaped, the family or others were killed in retribution. Lanzmann asks why Mr. Ziering does not show his face to the camera. FILM ID 3808 –- Camera Rolls NY 72A-74 coupes Silent shots of Mrs. Oppenheimer and Mr. Ziering.

    Yehuda Bauer

    Yehuda Bauer

    Film

    Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli scholar, talks about how he first became involved in the study of the Holocaust and how he tries to strike a balance between emotional involvement and objectivity. He talks about the Jewish Council and Israeli attitudes to them after the war. Lanzmann and Bauer debate Kasztner's actions and motivations and the Nazi fantasy of the powerful "world Jewry". The interview was recorded outdoors in the early evening at a kibbutz in Israel (probably Bauer’s home). FILM ID 3793 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 -- Interview Judenrat CR1 Bauer says he came from Prague in 1939 at the age of twelve. His father was a Zionist and got the family out on the day the Germans came in. Lanzmann asks how he started working on the Holocaust in Israel and Bauer explains that it was impossible for him as a historian not to deal with it and that he was scared to do so. CR2 Lanzmann asks Bauer if there is a change of attitude among Israelis toward the Judenrat. Bauer says yes, and that research has shifted toward an understanding of the conditions under which Judenrat were working, and the impossibility of generalizing about the policy of all of the Judenrat. Bauer describes an extreme case in the Łódź ghetto where Rumkowski wanted to save the Jews by making them slaves of the Germans, calculating that no slave master would murder his slaves. He did this with support of the rabbis and Jewish elites. Lanzmann calls this a policy of "rescue through work". It did keep 60,000 Łódź Jews alive until 1944, longer than in other ghettos. Had the Soviet Army moved into Łódź in July 1944 instead of January 1945, Rumkowski might have been remembered as a hero or savior, but Bauer calls him a murderer. CR3 Lanzmann talks of the ghetto situation being different from that of occupied countries like France where there was a permanent struggle between the bourgeoisie and the workers. Bauer points out that there is a big difference between cooperation and collaboration, the latter being an ideological union with the occupiers which helped the Nazis win the war. Some Judenrat tried to save the Jews through slave labor, but the approach did not work because the Nazis hated the Jews based on ideology, rather than economics, so the end was murder. It is important to look at the moral action or intention. Barasch in Bialystok was an honest man who tried to save as many people as possible by working with the underground, while Rumkowski fought against the underground and destroyed it. In Kovno, the Jewish elder Elkis tried to help the underground with the support of the Jewish police. In Minsk, the leader Myschkin helped to organize the resistance. Bauer says that attempts to present the Judenrat as stereotypes are fallacious. Lanzmann presses Bauer to define the difference in the leaders' position. Bauer says it was more than the leaders; it was also the environment and whether there was a military or civilian government in place. FILM ID 3794 -- Camera Rolls 4-6 -- Interview Judenrat CR4 Bauer draws a distinction between when the Judenrat operated. Studies show that a large number of Judenrat had the support of the population at first. Later, their sphere of action was limited, and they felt forced to hand over their own people as slave laborers. Bauer tells a case in Kosov, Ukraine, where when alerted that the Germans were coming to kill the Jews, three of the Judenrat delayed the Germans with talk while the Jews ran off to hide. Bauer explains that there was a policy among some Judenrat heads to sacrifice a minority in the hope of saving the majority, which is what Genz did in Vilna having the Jewish police handing over the old people to be killed by the Germans. CR5 Lanzmann and Bauer discuss the decision of the Communist Party, the Judenrat, and the ghetto population to turn in Itzi Gritenberg, the head of the resistance movement, to the Germans. Gritenberg supported Jakob Genz in sending Jewish elders away. The underground found itself in a similar position as the Judenrat, with the responsibility for choosing the life or death of others. Bauer illustrates a case of two Jews near Vilna who escaped to the forest; when they did not return, the Nazis killed 150 Jewish villagers. The resistance felt that the Germans put them in a no-win situation. CR6 Bauer explains that the resistance movement was different from the Judenrat in that the former realized that armed resistance was the only reaction to the Nazis, and that it was hopeless - everybody would be killed. In contrast, he reads a speech by Jakob Genz, head of the Vilna ghetto, who sacrificed elders rounded up by the ghetto police, with Genz saying that he has blood on his hands, whereas the intelligensia would live with a clear conscience. Bauer cites examples of alternate ways of dealing with the Germans. In Slovakia, the Judenrat decided to save the whole community, so were able to negotiate with and pay money to the Slovak government, and establish work camps for youths. Lanzmann points out that conditions were different in Slovakia because there were no ghettos. Bauer counters with examples of ghettos in Minsk, Wolinia and Belorussia where the Judenrat helped get youths into the forest and fight the Germans. Many of the youth were Zionists who had disengaged from the Jewish community before the war. FILM ID 3795 -- Camera Rolls 7,8 -- Interview Divers CR7 Bauer says again that the youth movements, Zionist and Communist, both had as their mission the establishment of a new society. But being stuck in the ghetto, they had to share the Jewish way of life, which they had rejected. In Vilna, Bialystok and Cracow, they decided that the ghetto was lost anyway, so where they could, they escaped into the forest and became partisans. In Belorussia, about 25,000 Jews escaped, many of them becoming fighters, even forming family camps. Acquiring guns was a major challenge, since it was difficult to be accepted into partisan units without arms. But in the Warsaw ghetto, there was no way to have an effective armed resistance during the big deportations in 1942. CR8 Bauer surmises that the reason for the failure of the resistance groups to organize an uprising in Warsaw in 1942 is that they were still unprepared. It went against their history and tradition to rebel. But when the remaining 55,000 Jews in the ghetto realized that the others had been killed, the population organized themselves, neutralizing the Judenrat and the Jewish police. Bauer explains that the Western world had heard about the pogroms, murder and ghettos in Eastern Europe, as reported in the New York and the Palestinian Hebrew newspapers, but no one had put the events together as a plan because the events were so unprecedented as to be unthinkable. The shock of realization came when a group of Palestinians who had been living in Europe came to Palestine in the fall of 1942 and told the whole story. FILM ID 3796 -- Camera Rolls 9,10 -- Zionism CR9 Bauer goes into detail about the disbelief of the Western world about the news of the systematic killing of the Jews in Europe. He cites the public denial of Itzak Greenbaum despite having accurate information from a correspondent in Switzerland. Lanzmann presses Bauer and he says that Greenbaum knew there was little the Jewish population of Palestine could do, so he took the attitude of "rescue through victory." It was only when 69 Palestinians came from Poland, Germany, Belgium, and France in 1942 having witnessed the atrocities, that the world realized the "rumors" they had discounted were true. Greenbaum sent out a call to fight in 1943 saying that the European Jews had gone "like sheep to slaughter" and that "we must be different". CR10 Bauer speculates about what the Jews in Palestine could have done. He says the dilemma for the Zionists in Palestine was to create a mass Jewish State. All would be lost if there was no Jewish State after the war and no country would absorb what Jews were left. The Jews were completely powerless in 1942 and 1943 - they had no ships or aircraft to get to Europe. Leaders sought help from the British and begged that a few hundred parachutists be sent into Europe. In the end, 31 parachutists were sent. Bauer continues about the contradiction of resources, whether to raise money for building an independent state or for rescuing European Jews. There was pressure from the kibbutz movement, youth movements and working class movement for more direct action, such as sending a delegation to Istanbul. Ben Gurion and Sharett tried to influence the British and American governments to negotiate with the Nazis to save the Jews of Europe or at least to delay their murder. Lanzmann mentions that the slow pace of the pressure to negotiate is in direct contrast with the speed of the deportations of the Hungarian Jews in 1944. FILM ID 3797 -- Camera Rolls 11,12,14 -- Interview Divers CR11 Bauer agrees with Lanzmann about the incongruity of events: The Nazis destroy the Jews at a fantastic speed, yet the reaction of the world was contradictory and slow. He surmises that the Western powers were focused on winning the war by military means in an effort to destroy the Nazis. Saving people was not a military aim. Even in 1944, when American bombers could have reached Eastern Poland, bombing Auschwitz was not a priority. Bauer addresses the accusations against Kasztner, the leader of the Zionist rescue committee in Budapest. Kasztner is alleged to have negotiated with the Nazis. Bauer does not believe the Jews of Klusz knew of the Germans' plan of annihilating European Jews from the 2,500 Polish Jews who escaped into Hungary between 1942 and 1944. Those who escaped told their Hungarian hosts about Belzec, Treblinka, and Majdanek. The Judenrat in Budapest sent messengers to ghettos to warn Jews that they would be deported and killed in Poland. Several of the twelve messengers survived and reported after the war that they were kicked out by the ghetto community - people simply did not want to know. Lanzmann questions how they were warned. CR12 Bauer and Lanzmann argue about whether the Jews of Klusz were sufficiently warned about the deportations - Bauer suggesting they were warned by their own leaders but didn't want to believe the information, Lanzmann saying that people were not told directly enough to run for their lives. Bauer says that Kasztner, a noted journalist, was setting a precedent by negotiating with the Germans for a ransom - first, not to put the Jews in a ghetto and later, to save as many Jews he could. Kasztner had to decide which approach was more effective. He chose to negotiate because the Germans put the stages of concentration, isolation, Aryanization and deportation into action very rapidly with the cooperation of the Hungarian population and government; there was no time or place for escape. The discussion turns to the famous train he negotiated. It consisted of Klusz Jews, including Kasztner's family, friends and some rich people who could pay for others. Bauer argues that Kasztner put his family there to show that the train would go to a safe place rather than to Auschwitz. Lanzmann sees Kasztner's achievements in two ways: he saved 1,600 Jews, yet behaved like a classic Judenrat member in saving only a handful of people. Bauer sees Kasztner in a positive light, given that everything was stacked against saving even a few people - the Jews were in labor battalions, rebellion was impossible, there were no weapons nor support from the Hungarian population and the SS was in charge. Kasztner was a clever negotiator, convincing Eichmann, Becher and Himmler that he was someone to be reckoned with. CR14 Bauer explains that the German generals knew that Germany couldn't win the war in 1942. The Nazis saw the Jews as a world power and thus a bargaining chip with the Allies. The Brandt mission in 1944, meant to exchange trucks for Jews, was doomed to failure because of this dichotomy. Bandi Gross, a crook, was the only person with direct contact with the British and American in Istanbul to negotiate a separate peace. Lanzmann wonders why Eichmann continued the killings if negotiations were going on. Bauer explains the two parallel lines of Nazi policy - the use of the Jews as a bargaining tool (without Hitler's knowledge) and their complete destruction. To the Nazis, the Jews were not human beings, so they could be either sold or killed, whichever was more convenient. Lanzmann adds, "Kill or sell was the same thing." FILM ID 3798 -- Camera Roll 15 -- Interview Divers CR15 Lanzmann says the only way the Nazis could reach the Allies for negotiations was through the Jews because of their imputed world power. Bauer agrees that the Nazis were fighting a war against world Jewry. He states that negotiation plans to "sell Jews" began in 1939 with Schacht-Rubli whereby 100,000 young Jews would emigrate under support from Jews outside Germany. Bauer revisits the "ransom deal" in Slovakia with Wisliceny in 1942. Deportations stopped for a while, which Wisliceny attributes to the Catholic Church's intervention. Bauer disagrees, contending there is no proof of the connection. He says that Weissmandel and Fleischmann believed their plan stopped the deportations, so they proposed the Europaplan, again to exchange Jews for money. Bauer suggests that this plan wasn't about getting money for Jews, but about opening the door to negotiations with the Allies. Lanzmann asks for more details about the war against the Soviet Union being a war against the Jews. Bauer says the evidence is to be found in Hitler's second book in 1928 and his preparations for the attack in 1940 about fighting the Judeo-Bolshevist power. Hitler's quest was a conquest of the world by a healthy, cultured Germanic race and the destruction of the Satanic power of the Jews, which, he believed, controlled the world of his enemies. FILM ID 3799 -- Camera Roll 13 -- Coupes CR13 Bauer is speaking but the sound is missing and the roll has not been located in the archive. It is dark and Bauer puts on a sweater. There is no written transcript for this roll so it is likely that the audio malfunctioned during the interview.

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman

    Film

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman talk about their involvement in the Jewish combat organization in the Warsaw ghetto and the Warsaw ghetto uprising. The interview with both men takes place at the Ghetto Fighters House in Israel on October 4, 1979. Mr. Rotem was interviewed separately in his apartment in Jerusalem on October 6, 1979. FILM ID 3745 -- Camera Rolls 1-4 Lanzmann says they are standing outside of the Ghetto Fighters House. Lanzmann has brought a model of the Warsaw Ghetto to reference when describing the uprising. Rotem joined the Jewish Combat Organization in 1942. He worked at a collective farm and was sent by the Jewish Combat Organization into the ghetto to make contact with the Zionist organization there. The director of the farm was named Czerniakow(?), and his farm had been authorized by the Germans to employ young people to make agricultural products for the war. The farm was at the edge of the Warsaw district. The farm was not guarded, and the director had confidence that the young people working for him would not get him into trouble. Rotem was aware of his privileged position away from the ghetto. He was able to perform illegal resistance activities and received enough to eat. He stayed on the farm for three months until it was shut down at the end of 1942 and its occupants sent to the ghetto. Due to his resistance activities, he was able to visit his parents in the ghetto and witnessed the empty streets and gutted houses. He did not live in the ghetto during the first major deportation. FILM ID 3746 -- Camera Rolls 5-7 The Germans did not expect the Jews in the ghetto to fight back. Rotem explains that none of the Jews could have imagined that a genocide would occur in the 20th century. On top of this, the Germans tried to mislead the Jews further with the establishment of model camps at Poniatow and Trawniki, which Jewish delegations visited. The Jewish Combat Organization was established on July 28, 1942. They were organized, but lacked arms and were only able to fight from January 1943 until April 19, 1943. Mordechai Anielewicz, leader of the Jewish Combat Organization, sent Itzhak Zuckerman (referred to as Antek) a letter on April 22, concerning the search for arms for the uprising. Zuckerman has a copy of the letter that he translated at the time from Hebrew into Yiddish. Living on the outside, Zuckerman knew what was happening in the ghetto and understood more so than others the significance of the deportations. He had contacts in the ghetto, as well as with Jewish gravediggers. Zuckerman left the ghetto six days before the insurrection on April 19, 1943. In the ghetto, Rotem describes how the occupants of the ghetto felt as if something was going to happen. The Germans entered the ghetto on Malevkins street and made their way to the factories. Rotem was outside of the combat zone. Zuckerman comments that Lanzmann has been able to get him to talk about things he does not like thinking about. FILM ID 3747 -- Camera Rolls 8-9 A storm rages outside where the interview takes place. Inside, Zuckerman continues. The Germans entered the ghetto carrying a white flag and demanded a cease fire. Zuckerman describes this event as beyond unbelievable. The resistance fighters immediately opened fire, causing the Germans to retreat. Upon seeing three hundred SS enter the ghetto, Zuckerman exploded a mine placed at an observation post which injured dozens of Germans. The Germans would set fire to buildings and launch artillery from outside the ghetto. The morale of the resistance fighters was lifted when they saw how they had taken the Germans by surprise, and had killed dozens of them in the first three days of fighting. The Germans were afraid to enter the ghetto at night, and were disturbed by the deserted streets. The Jews in the ghetto hid underground in tunnels, basements and bunkers. Zuckerman says the two most astonishing facts of the uprising were that people who were trapped had the spirit to fight, and that those in charge were so young. Rotem was 16 or 17, and Zuckerman about 20 at the time. Zuckerman tells Lanzmann how those who perished in the fight deserve to have their lives written about. Rotem adds that it is unfair for two or three people to be given all the honor and to be turned almost into a legend, for an event which was performed by hundreds. FILM ID 3748 -- Camera Roll 10 After the war, Zuckerman critiqued Zivia for writing the entire account of the resistance fighter's escape in one single chapter of her book. He felt without all the details, the book did not portray the reality of what happened. Lanzmann tells Zuckerman that he is doing similarly by simplifying the events of the Holocaust for the sake of the film. Zuckerman nevertheless thanks Lanzmann for making the film while he is still able to recount his story. FILM ID 3749 -- Camera Rolls 11-13 [Rotem is interviewed alone is his apartment and thus speaks for the remainder of the interview.] Human language is incapable of describing the horror of what was witnessed in the ghetto. The Jews in the ghetto were cut off from the world and isolated to the point where it was possible to lose the drive to keep fighting. Previous attempts to leave the ghetto had ended in death but Rotem and a friend, Sigmund, still decided to try. On April 29, Rotem escaped the ghetto through a tunnel and hid in a house. They met a Christian Pole who they managed to convince that they were also Christian Poles accidentally placed inside the ghetto. The Polish man showed Rotem and Sigmund an escape route via a courtyard which had several days previously been the site of the Irgun fighter's massacre. The Irgun fighters resisted German control independently from the Jewish Combat Organization inside the ghetto. They were able to meet the contact on the Christian side of Warsaw, who advised that a rescue operation of Jewish fighters in the ghetto take place. They concluded the best way to achieve this would be through the sewers. Rotem met with Zuckerman and convinced him to wait until he learned the sewer system before re-entering the ghetto. The men sought out sewer workers to assist them in maneuvering through the tunnels. This took about one week, after which they re-entered the ghetto on May 8 or 9. They could hear fighting and the sound of gunfire from outside the ghetto. Rotem describes returning to the ghetto as the most natural thing to do. He had left in order to seek help for his comrades, not to save himself. From his position outside the ghetto he saw the fires burning and snipers on the roofs. Meanwhile, the city of Warsaw continued functioning as normal. Even in uprising, the ghetto continued to exist as an isolated island. They re-entered the ghetto with the help of the "King of the Blackmailers," a Polish man who lived near the ghetto wall who trapped Jews trying to escape. Rotem and his comrades pretended to be members of the Polish Resistance whose comrades where stuck inside the ghetto. Along with a substantial bribe, the "King of the Blackmailers" helped the men re-enter the ghetto. FILM ID 3750 -- Camera Rolls 14-16 Rotem, his comrade Richek (also spelled Rijek) and two sewer workers entered the ghetto through the sewer system. At times the sewer workers tried to turn around, and Rotem and Richek had to threaten them with their weapons. After about two hours in the sewers, Rotem arrived at the Franciskhanska quarter. Despite giving the password to enter the bunker where the Jewish Combat Organization was supposed to be, he received no reply. The bunker the Jewish Combat Organization had been using was 22 Franciszkanska. Rotem had received no information about the ghetto in the eight days he was outside of it. Consequently, he did not know for certain where he could locate the other combat fighters when he returned to the ghetto. Rotem first went to the bunker where Zivia and Mordechai Anielewicz had been eight days previously, in search of survivors. Not finding anyone there, he went to the other bunkers in the ghetto where he thought he may find survivors. Walking amongst the ruins, Rotem heard a women call for help. She had broken her leg and couldn't free herself. Unfortunately, in the dark Rotem could not find her. As he continued through the ghetto, he smelled smoke and the burnt flesh of those murdered. He repeated the password, "Jan" at each bunker he visited, but did not find anyone. He describes how he felt he was the last living Jew. He returned to the sewers and they retraced their steps. FILM ID 3751 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 The bunkers were deep subterranean caves. They were extremely hot and often one had to lay face down to breathe. On their way back through the sewers the four men heard a noise and feared they had were about to be attacked by Germans, who knew about the sewers. However, it turned out to be ten resistance fighters, all of whom Rotem says he knew personally. Most of the bunkers in the ghetto had been prepared for the non-fighting citizens. As the headquarters of the insurrection, the bunker at Mila 18 had been given to the resistance fighters by gangster Samuel Ascher. The gangsters dealt with contraband commerce between the ghetto and larger Warsaw. FILM ID 3752 -- Camera Rolls 22-24 Rotem remarks how fortunate their meeting with the ten other resistance fighters was, and that by a miracle they did not open fire on each other. They told Rotem that he was late returning to the ghetto by one day. Many of the fighters had committed suicide the previous day, before they could be captured by the Germans. Rotem, Richek and the two sewer guides left the sewer while the ten fighters went in search of surviving fighters in the ghetto. They agreed to rendezvous at a well-known manhole cover outside of the ghetto. Meeting at their rendezvous point, the fighters who searched the ghetto told Rotem that there were survivors in the ghetto who wanted to escape. They could not hold out in the sewers for another day. However, Rotem was not prepared to help a large group of Jews escape from the ghetto so soon. The following morning, he had acquired a truck driven by the Polish communist Army man, Tchacktckek. Despite the tremendous danger, they began to bring the Jews out of the sewer and load them into the truck. Rotem recalls how a crowd of Polish spectators gathered. With about 40 people in the truck, they left the area. Zivia told Rotem there were still people in the sewers. The Jews escaping the sewers were so weak they had to be pulled out and lifted in to the truck. Zivia demanded they return to rescue the remaining people in the sewers, but Rotem felt it would be too dangerous, and figured the second truck would rescue them. The fighters hid in the forest outside of the city, and Rotem returned to Warsaw to see if the remaining fighters had managed to escape. He found his comrade, Rickek, dead in the street. As the remaining Jews escaped through the manhole, Germans had arrived and killed them. Of those who escaped to the forest, Rotem believes about four men are still alive at the time of the interview. Many of them had joined the partisans after escaping the ghetto, and were killed in combat. FILM ID 3766 -- Coupes (Roll 40 - white) -- 09:00:09 to 09:13:19 Mute shots of Rotem in the Ghetto Fighters House. 09:00:20 "Bob. 176" coupe of Lanzmann sitting on a couch, listening and interviewing to Rotem, smoking, close-ups. 09:05:42 Model of the Warsaw ghetto in the museum. 09:08:07 Historic photographs of ghetto inhabitants. *** The following are audio reels **** Film ID 3498 -- Rottem 132, take 1,2 -- 00:00:30 to 00:16:00 Film ID 3499 -- Rotem 133, take 3,4 -- 00:00:42 to 00:11:36 Film ID 3500 -- Rotem 134, take 5 -- 00:00:27 to 00:11:12 Film ID 3501 -- Rotem 135, take 6 -- 00:00:43 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3502 -- Rotem 136, take 7 -- 00:01:10 to 01:12:08 Film ID 3503 -- Rotem 137, take 8 -- 00:01:30 to 00:11:37 Film ID 3504 -- Rotem 138, take 9 -- 00:00:52 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3505 -- Rotem 139, take 10 -- 00:00:56 to 00:12:33 Film ID 3506 -- Rotem 140, take 11 -- 00:00:31 to 00:12:46 Film ID 3507 -- Rotem 141, take 12 -- 00:00:44 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3508 -- Rotem 142, take 13 -- 00:01:21 to 00:12:05 Film ID 3509 -- Rotem 143, take 14 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:15 Film ID 3510 -- Rotem 144, take 16,17 -- 00:01:06 to 00:11:55 Film ID 3511 -- Rotem 145, take 18 -- 00:01:12 to 00:11:55 Film ID 3512 -- Rotem 146, take 19 -- 00:00:22 to 00:11:04 Film ID 3513 -- Rotem 147, take 20 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:16 Film ID 3514 -- Rotem 148, take 21 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:20 Film ID 3515 -- Rotem 149, take 22 -- 00:00:26 to 00:11:14 Film ID 3516 -- Rotem 150, take 22 sixte -- 00:00:32 to 00:11:15 Film ID 3517 -- Rotem 151, take 23 -- 00:00:41 to 00:13:19

    Abba Kovner - Vilna

    Abba Kovner - Vilna

    Film

    Abba Kovner lived in disguise in a convent at the beginning of the German occupation in 1941. He was a central figure in the Zionist youth resistance movement in Vilna. He commanded an underground partisan resistance group throughout the war. He describes the way the Germans avoided panic among the Jews. Kovner maintains a poetic approach to Lanzmann's questions throughout the interview. This interview took place over two days in Kovner's Kibbutz Eyn Ha'horesh (between Nethania and Hadera). FILM ID 3236 -- Camera Rolls #2,3 -- 01:00:12 to 01:24:55 CR 2 01:00:12 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Lanzmann sits off camera as they speak in Hebrew and French. Lanzmann wants to discuss the proclamations of January 1942 by the Jewish Pioneers and the rapidity with which Vilna experienced invasion and extermination. Kovner worries that there are too many details to be able to tell them all. The Jews of Vilna were of the lower middle and poor class and accepted Russian rule philosophically. 01:11:40 CR 3 01:11:42 Kovner remarks on Vilna's unique status as a "political oasis" The Jews were caught between several governments and did not know where to look to for help. Everyone assumed that before the Germans came to Vilna they would have a few weeks to pack up and escape, but they were shocked when the Germans arrived and how quickly the Russians fled. Kovner advised other young Zionist youth (Pioneers) that they should flee to the Soviet Union. 01:24:55 FILM ID 3237 -- Camera Rolls #4,5,6 -- 02:00:13 to 02:33:20 CR 4 02:00:13 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Once the Germans arrived Kovner warned people to escape towards Leningrad. He says that people have asked him why Jews did not try to escape the Germans but in fact they did so. Many young people fled immediately, but it was harder for families. Kovner decided to stay because he was a resistance leader and the majority of Jews were still in Vilna and he wanted to stay with them. Some Jews were forced to return because German parachustists had already reached Minsk. 02:11:24 CR 5 02:11:26 Once the Germans arrived the pogroms began. Men were taken for forced labor and many never returned. The people of Vilna would wake up every day not knowing what agony to expect. The Germans took their money, their apartments, and their men. Women began to hide their male relatives to save them from the roundups. When the ghetto in Vilna was formed there was less fear because it was more of a 'known' situation. Kovner begins to describe the events and atmosphere on the day the Jews began to be moved into the ghetto. He tells the story from the point of view of a particpant. 02:22:06 CR 6 02:22:07 Kovner goes through the thoughts that ran through the heads of Jews in the 30 minutes they had to gather their belongings right before they were forced into the ghetto. Their thoughts were not about how to escape, but about where their families were, what they were going to bring, how they were going to live. It was almost a relief to learn that the ghetto was in the middle of Vilna because it was a familiar place. During the formation of the ghetto Kovner was not present; he was already in hiding in the convent. When he went out into the streets he disguised himself as a nun. The night of the roundup is called the 'night of provocation' and the justification given by the Germans was the assassination of a German soldier. 02:33:20 FILM ID 3238 -- Camera Roll #7 -- 03:00:14 to 03:12:11 CR 7 03:00:14 Kovner sits on a park bench. He discusses how quickly everything changed for the Jews in Vilna. The German domination happened all of a sudden and it was terrifying. People were not talking of dates or facts, they were asking simple questions about survival. Kovner remembers visiting the ghetto and finding lines of people everywhere waiting for food or to use the bathroom. There were originally two ghettos right next to each other and people wondered at the logic of this, thinking that one must be a "good" place and one a "bad" place to be. Suddenly the smaller ghetto disappeared and they had their answer. People were not sure of where those people went but they knew it was a fate worse than their own. 03:12:11 FILM ID 3239 -- Camera Rolls #8,9,11 -- 04:00:14 to 04:33:20 CR 8 04:00:14 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. Lanzmann asks about panic in the ghetto. Kovner states that there must be a difference between fear, scare and panic. When one imagines panic they think of people running and howling in the streets, but this was impossible because the Germans were controlling everything. Kovner says that there was a lot of silence. The Germans created a psychological panic by differentiating people and making it clear that they did not all have the same destiny. They did this with the "Schein" or certificate that they issued to each person with certain colors and numbers. People tried to forge "good" certificates or trade with others. They spent their time trying to figure out what the Germans' intentions were. 04:11:25 CR 9 04:11:26 Kovner discusses further the system with the "Schein" that the Germans created. A yellow certificate meant you had a trade and could work in German industry. There were blue, pink and white certificates given to certain family members. The Germans succeeded in their psychological panic because the Jews battled each other for all these different certificates. Kovner remembers scenes of families being separated, husbands leaving the good line to be in the bad line with their wives; the smallest motion of a Gestapo soldier's finger was enough to separate these families. At one point people with pink certificates were safe while white certificates were not, but then it would switch causing great confusion about their fate. 04:22:36 CR 11 04:22:37 Kovner says that those who lived felt that was a signal that they were indispensable to the industry, but those people still felt great despair and sorrow for the great numbers of people who were gone. Kovner says that it was at this time that he realized that all roads led to death and this idea was the beginning of his idea to form a resistance movement. Lanzmann again asks Kovner about what they knew about the people who were gone, did they know those thousands were being taken to their deaths? Kovner replies with a story about the rumors that were spread. As an educator of the Zionist Socialist Youth, Kovner had been to the Ponary forest (near Vilna) for picnics before. There were rumors that shots were heard from Ponary which increased when the first ghetto disappeared. There was a rumor of a work camp built in Ponary where conditions were far worse than in Vilna. Kovner received proof of the truth about Ponary when one of his contacts at the ghetto hospital told him of a wounded 11 year-old girl who had arrived. She had just managed to survive a mass execution in Ponari and return to Vilna. 04:33:20 FILM ID 3240 -- Camera Rolls #12,13,14 -- 05:00:12 to 05:34:18 CR 12 05:00:12 Kovner sits outside on a park bench. He talks about another survivor of Ponary, an older woman who had been part of a roundup of women. At Ponary she saw one of Kovner's students murdered along with over 100 other women. Kovner begins to discuss the last time he had a meeting at the convent in December of 1941. Lanzmann wonders how he was able to go between the convent and the ghetto and Kovner explains it was because he was dressed as a nun and accompanied by a blonde woman 05:11:22 CR 13 05:11:22 Lanzmann sits outside on a park bench across from Kovner who is now off camera. Lanzmann asks Kovner to explain how he went between the convent and the ghetto, and who was with him in the convent. Kovner explains that he was hidden by a Catholic woman named Irena who had been a member of the Polish Scouts. From the very beginning of the German occupation she had hidden Jewish men, especially leaders of the Zionist Socialist Youth, because they were in the most danger. Eventually it became difficult because in the small convent the Jewish men greatly outnumbered the nine nuns. Kovner remembers requesting information from a priest about the situation of the Jews in Ponary Once he had the information he requested he decided to write his famous appeal. 05:22:37 CR 14 05:22:39 It is night and Kovner sits outside in a lawn chair. Lanzmann sits off camera and asks Kovner if he thinks he would have written the appeal if he had actually been living in the ghetto. Kovner commends Lanzmann for his intelligent question but says he will leave it aside for the moment. Kovner wants to discuss the appeal itself first so he begins to bring up the key points. Lanzmann wishes to read the whole thing in French before Kovner discusses it. Lanzmann expresses shock over how violent and condemning of Jews the appeal is at which point Kovner asks him to bring up a specific part. Lanzmann reads a harsh letter to the Jewish youth, condemning them for not acting. Kovner insists that this is not the appeal he wrote and that Lanzmann has an incorrect translation of it. 05:34:18 FILM ID 3241 -- Camera Rolls #15,16,17 -- 06:00:15 to 06:34:24 CR15 06:00:15 Kovner is sitting in a lawn chair outside at night. He is holding a copy of the appeal he wrote in December 1941. He does not wish to read it, but to bring up the three main points he wanted the Jews and especially Jewish youth to pay attention to. First they needed to denounce the enemy of the illusion that was holding them from the truth. They all had friends and relatives who had died at Ponari and it was important to realize that this was not just happening to the ghettos in Vilna, but to Jews all over Europe. Kovner's second point was the call for the Jews to defend themselves. 06:11:27 CR 16 06:11:28 Kovner says the sentence from his appeal that generated the most discussion was one that states that Hitler had the intent to destroy all European Judaism. Many in the Zionist Socialist Youth believed the mass exterminations to be a sort of revenge for prior Soviet activity or a show of German sadism. This did not make sense to Kovner, he remembered reading "Mein Kampf" and understanding that this was Hitler's plan unfolding in front of their eyes. In the first time in Jewish history there was no place to escape, geographically or spiritually. 06:22:49 CR 17 06:22:50 The last line of Kovner's appeal states that "it is better to fall as fighters." They were at a point like no other in Jewish history for there was no place to escape, not even by denouncing Judaism and converting to Christianity. Hitler planned to exterminate European Jewry and Kovner was convinced there had to be a solution. Lanzmann wonders if the Zionist Socialists felt elitist over the Jewish masses. Kovner does not like his use of the word elite and goes on to say that they just assumed that the whole of the Jewish population would agree with their solution of Israel, they were the pioneers. 06:34:24 FILM ID 3242 -- Camera Rolls #18,19,22 -- 07:00:13 to 07:29:50 CR 18 07:00:13 Kovner is sitting in a lawn chair outside at night. Kovner addresses Lanzmann's question about whether or not he would have written the appeal had he actually been in the ghetto and not in hiding in the convent. He is not sure how to answer the question. Though he was not in the ghetto and unable to have the perspective of someone who was forced to live there, he does have a special perspective as someone on the outside still greatly affected because of the loss of his family and friends. Kovner believes the appeal was born of two major proponents of human culture: guilt and the violent will to never give up. 07:11:56 CR 19 07:11:58 Lanzmann asks Kovner what purpose he thought his appeal would have when it was written in 1942 at a point where the Germans were already victorious all over Europe, especially when they had no arms to resist with. Kovner states that he knew there were thousands of Jewish youth with the will and the loyalty to be part of a rebellion. Lanzmann wonders what they expected to achieve. 07:17:54 CR 22 07:17:55 Kovner states they had minimal illusion about what they could accomplish, but it was important to them to have the power to choose their own death. Their resistance was out of desperation, they knew there was no escape but they hoped they would be able to save thousands. Lanzmann asks why he entered the ghetto in 1942 and if he stayed there for good. Kovner corrects him because the events they are discussing are not in chronological order. Kovner talks about 1942 as a period of stabilization because for a while the Aktions stopped and there was a new trust that the Germans were telling the truth when they promised they were done. 07:29:50 FILM ID 3243 -- Camera Rolls #23,26,27 -- 08:00:13 to 08:32:16 CR 23 08:00:13 Kovner sits on a bench outside during the day. The translator's arm and leg can also be seen on camera. Lanzmann remains off camera as he interviews Kovner. Lanzmann wants Kovner to describe what the conditions were like when he went back into the ghetto to organize resistance. Kovner discusses how important it was to be unified and put all differences aside. The group he started, the Zionist Socialist Youth, was one of the many groups that came together little by little. All members were asked to leave their families to make their own community in order to eliminate any dependence. There were sixteen living in a room with no food in the middle of winter. They formed a sort of commune where they held meetings, distributed labor and shared food. Kovner believes the rebellion started when they first divided a small piece of bread to share with all the members. At that moment they reversed the Germans' attempt to make them into wild animals and they were able to care for other people. 08:11:27 CR 26 08:11:34 Kovner says that while they were seeking external help they found support among a small group of Lithuanians, which was surprising and courageous because the majority of Lithuania collaborated with the Germans. The group in Lithuania asked Kovner to put together a list of 25-30 people that should be saved and they offered to hide these people outside of Vilna. Kovner and his group refused because they felt the Lithuanians were asking them to do what the Germans were doing, to make a selection of people that deserved to live. Some people in the group wanted to keep the option available in case they needed it later on, but they still refused because Kovner saw it as an admission that the entire ghetto population was condemned to death. 08:21:05 CR 27 08:21:06 The question of whether or not to save a group of people came up often, but always with the same conclusion. They felt the despair that comes with knowing that only death was in front of them, but Kovner also thinks they were the only ones in the ghetto who felt free because they knew they were choosing to die fighting. Lanzmann asks if by not choosing a group to save they thought it was better if all perish. He also touches upon Judenrat policies. Kovner wishes to speak about the Judenrat but decides to wait on that. He says the only reason they were able to call what they were doing in the ghetto resistance is because they did not seek to fight to save their own lives, but so that their behavior remained as a testament in Jewish history. 08:32:16 FILM ID 3244 -- Camera Rolls #30,31 -- 10:00:14 to 10:20:12 CR 30 10:00:14 Kovner sits on a bench outside during the day. Lanzmann remains off camera. Kovner discusses the long history of Jewish non-violent resistance as well as they many other practices that occurred prior to the war. Kovner thinks that violence is a fairly modern term and the term they used was "force." They would use force to protect the sanctity of all Jewish lives. 10:09:06 CR 31 10:09:08 When Kovner looks back at Jewish resistance over the course of history it is often called passive; but he views acts such as refusing to renounce your Jewish faith at the cost of burning at the stake as an active reaction. They fought to preserve a supreme value called the sanctity of life. Murder is not the opposite of sanctity of life, but the desecration and elimination of the human value of life. The Germans forced humiliation upon the Jews in the ghetto and this was the opposite of sanctity of life. Kovner expresses his unwillingness to be the prophet after the event, he cannot judge what is good or what is bad. 10:20:12 FILM ID 3245 -- Camera Rolls #19A,B,C ; 30A,B ; 28; 29 -- 09:00:09 to 09:29:12 CR 19A,B,C 09:00:09 Lanzmann sits in a lawn chair outside. It is night. He is smoking a cigarette and listening and nodding to Kovner who is off camera. He occasionally speaks to someone off camera, but there is no sound. CU of his face. 09:05:17 CR 30A,B 09:05:17 Lanzmann sits on park bench during the day. Trees wave in the wind as he listens to Kovner who is off camera. Lanzmann hunches and leans forward. 09:07:26 CR 28 09:07:42 No picture, just audio. Kovner believes that had the Jews unified earlier on in the war they could have resisted the Germans. Lanzmann misinterprets the answer and thinks Kovner is talking about the beginning of the occupation of Vilna when the German attack was sudden. Kovner corrects him and goes on to say that it should not have been just the Jews resisting the Germans, but had the whole world reacted then it could have been prevented. Kovner goes back to a previous question that asked him to reflect on his actions from thirty years ago. Kovner states that he is unable to look back and judge his actions because at the time he acted in the way he saw fit. There were signs that their resistance was not in vain. Kovner tells a story of women who were returning from work and stopped by Germans who told them to turn around, but they sat down on the road and refused. There was something significant about this occurrence to Kovner. There was something more the Germans wanted because if they were content with the extermination of the Jews they would have just opened fire on the street and there would have been no reason for a ghetto or for Ponari. 09:21:43 CR 29 09:21:50 No picture, just audio. Many people questioned Kovner about the purpose of his resistance. To this doubt he responded that the Germans must be afraid of something or else they would have killed them all already. Most importantly Kovner felt it was important that they not die as passive victims; that they were activist victims able to "shed this feeling of shame that had been imposed upon us." By being active they were able to recover their feelings of dignity and individual value. 09:29:12

    Roswell McClelland

    Roswell McClelland

    Film

    Roswell McClelland was the US Representative to the War Refugee Board (WRB) in Switzerland before serving as a US Ambassador to the Republic of Niger. In this interview with Claude Lanzmann, McClelland recounts his personal experiences, his motivations, and his work with the WRB. The interview was filmed at the home of James MacGregor Byrne and June Byrne in Chevy Chase, MD (friends of Mr. McClelland). FILM ID 3432 -- Camera Rolls #63-68 -- 01:00:30 to 01:28:35 01:00:30 CR63 Claude Lanzmann and Roswell McClelland sit at a round table with notes and binders laid out between them. The wooden table is in a living room next to a fireplace, above which hangs a painting. Behind McClelland is a lamp and bookshelf. To his right, a pair of glass doors leading out to a patio. Lanzmann begins to ask McClelland a question when he is interrupted by a cameraman who then stops the film. 01:00:49 CR64 McClelland discusses traveling to Europe on a fellowship from Columbia in July 1940 and describes difficulties in getting a passport for his wife Marjorie. He explores his personal relationship with the American Society of Friends, a Quaker organization that some members of his family had membership in and that supported him in his travels. He then introduces the role and the tasks he was given at the American Joint Distribution Committee and his transfer from Rome to France and ultimately to Switzerland. He describes the condition of refugee camps in France. Camera zooms in slowly to focus on McClelland, who speaks to Lanzmann, seated out of frame. 01:11:11 CR65 McClelland discusses his concern with the deportation of foreign Jews from France in 1942. Lanzmann asks about McClelland's interaction with the Vichy government. McClelland describes meeting Pierre Laval in the office of a member of the Vichy government, Dr. Bernard Ménétrel, which he attended with a member of the Quaker organization. The meeting with Laval came by chance. 01:15:08 CR66 McClelland recalls the summer 1942 meeting with Pierre Laval and points out that Laval did the majority of the speaking, using the meeting as an opportunity to describe the foreign Jews as undesirable and anti-government, and supported their movement to an "ethnic reservation" in Poland. Laval dismissed McClelland's claims that the Jews were being exterminated. 01:17:31 CR67 McClelland restates Laval's dismissal of the extermination as fiction and outlines Laval's remarks on Americans and the Jewish population. Laval saw French Jews as France's responsibility more so than foreign Jews. McClelland describes Laval's discomfort and restates that Laval spoke for the majority of the meeting. 01:21:48 CR68 Lanzmann asks McClelland about heading the War Refugee Board in Switzerland. They discuss explanations for the lateness of the WRB's creation and deployment, problems with the State Department's bureaucracy, and the marginalization of the refugee question, particularly in government policy before 1944. Camera zooms in for a close up of McClelland. FILM ID 3433 -- Camera Rolls #69-71 -- 01:00:32 to 01:27:18 01:00:32 CR69 McClelland smokes a cigarette and speaks to Lanzmann, who is out of frame. Lanzmann asks about the climate of the refugee efforts in Switzerland and the nature of the requests made to the WRB. McClelland outlines the condition of refugees. 01:05:12 CR70 The camera now sits to Lanzmann's right shoulder, capturing Lanzmann's profile and McClelland's front over the round table. The bookshelf is visible to McClelland's right, and the fireplace is behind him. Lanzmann asks McClelland to describe Isaac Sternbuch, representative of Vaad Hahazalah, and Saly Mayer, from the Swiss Community. McClelland describes Sternbuch and Mayer in terms of emotional and practical approaches to their work and his relationship both with them and his work at the WRB. 01:16:15 CR71 Lanzmann and McClelland discuss the use of money by the WRB in the effort to rescue Jews. McClelland distinguishes between practical requests for WRB support that have specific goals and hysterical requests for large funds. McClelland speaks about his difficulty communicating with Sternbuch, his impressions of Mayer, and the function of the Joint Distribution Committee. FILM ID 3434 -- Camera Rolls #72-74 -- 01:00:29 to 01:33:44 01:00:29 CR72 McClelland describes the Swiss government's response to the WRB's activity and to the movement of Jewish and other refugees in Europe. He describes Heinrich Rothmund, Swiss head of the Eidgenossischen Fremdenpolizei. Lanzmann asks about how choices are made on where to give aid, and McClelland replies in reference to Quaker theology. 01:11:40 CR73 McClelland points out one occasion where he made a difficult choice on providing aid and the difficulty of choosing one individual over another. He outlines Saly Mayer's roles and responsibilities at the WRB and assesses the challenges Mayer faced. McClelland describes interactions with Kurt Becher. 01:22:49 CR74 McClelland recalls a specific meeting between Becher, Mayer, and himself, as well as his personal feelings and impression of Becher. He identifies difficulties within the US government of communicating with President Roosevelt and organizing action. Lanzmann asks McClelland about the question of bombing Auschwitz and why it was never done. McClelland starts his response but is interrupted by the end of the film. FILM ID 3435 -- Camera Rolls #75-77 - 01:00:32 to 01:18:33 01:00:32 CR75 McClelland submitted several proposals for military action against German train lines and against Auschwitz. He describes the goals of his proposals and the governmental and bureaucratic process by which the proposals were denied. Lanzmann and McClelland discuss the effect this military action may have had on Jewish victims who they describe as feeling abandoned by the world. 01:07:12 01:07:14 CR76 Lanzmann asks McClelland to talk about why he chose to share his story. McClelland replies and describes his motivations which relate to his personal character, the important nature of the story, and his analysis of world events which includes a reference to Holocaust denial on the part of certain groups. He draws a distinction between developing a technical civilization and developing a moral civilization. 01:11:42 CR77 McClelland continues to describe his motivations for sharing his story and expands on the technological and moral divide. He observes a growing gap between technology's rapid transformation and morality's relative stagnation. McClelland discusses the importance of Lanzmann's project and introduces the themes of sin and atonement. Specific mention is given to the German company IG Farben. FILM ID 3436 -- Camera Roll #78, coupe - 01:00:28 to 01:04:30 01:00:28 CR78 The camera focuses on Lanzmann and records his expressions and reactions during a portion of the interview. There is no sound for this roll.

    Hersh Smolar - Minsk ghetto

    Hersh Smolar - Minsk ghetto

    Film

    Hersh Smolar, was the editor of a Yiddish daily newspaper. After the war began, he became a leading member of the resistance in the Minsk ghetto and the commissar of a partisan group operating in the Belorussian forests. He discusses conditions in the ghetto and resistance activities. FILM ID 3376 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:07 to 01:30:17 Hersh Smolar was an editor of a Yiddish daily paper in Bialystok and left for Minsk by foot in June/July 1941 to get out. [The Germans advanced into Minsk on June 28, 1941, blocking all roads for evacuation]. He found Minsk abandoned by the Russian government with about 70,000 Jews remaining in the city when the Germans came. He believed that Communism could solve the Jewish problem, and rather than abandoning his "people" (the Jews) to take an offer of refuge with an acquaintance, he stayed in the Minsk ghetto. The Germans immediately ordered the establishment of a Jewish ghetto in Minsk on July 19, 1941. CR2 Smolar describes how the head of the Judenrat was selected by the Germans. The Russian government "escaped like cowards". Most of the Jews in Minsk did not know what Hitler represented since it was forbidden to write about fascism in the press. There were rumors but no one believed them. They thought they could negotiate with the Germans, or simply live. The first realization came in November 1941 on the Anniversary of the October Revolution when the Germans provoked the Jews and made them hold red flags in order to promote propaganda back in Germany that Jews are Bolsheviks. Some Jews were shot and the first transports were sent away. Smolar and others established an organization in the ghetto to inform people about fascism. Responding to Lanzmann's questioning, he describes the conditions in the ghetto and forced labor of skilled workers. He suggests that there was not a quiet period in the Minsk ghetto. People were murdered daily (shooting in the streets, fighting between the military and the Nazi party, Aktions). CR3 01:19:05 Smolar sings. Smolar was already in hiding at the time of the red flag provocation by the Germans. The slogan of the resistance organization referenced earlier was "ghetto is death"; it was established in the beginning of September 1941, just three months after the ghetto was established. The primary emphasis was to get Jews out of the ghetto. Smolar was the secretary of the resistance movement and convinced the head of the Judenrat to collect contributions for the organization and the partisans. The resistance movement was active in the ghetto for two years, with contacts from the Aryan side to find people (Communists) willing to fight the Germans. Smolar escaped to the woods in August 1942. He faced criticism because he was not given authority from the Central Committee to start an organization. He talks about the liquidation of the Minsk area and Aktions against Jews. Smolar did not witness many events in the ghetto when he was in hiding; the details were reported to him by the ghetto police. FILM ID 3377 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:08 to 02:33:58 CR4 The devastation of the Purim Aktion convinced many that staying in the ghetto meant death. So, they began to arm themselves with guns from Italians and Russians. He describes an Aktion where the Germans buried Jewish children alive under the watch of the German general commissioner Wilhelm Kube. The ghetto resistance group organized with the Soviet military on the Aryan side. Smolar tried to convince the Soviets that by saving Jews they were fighting the Germans, but anti-Semitism fueled a conflict and the Soviets turned the resisters into the Gestapo, even though the Jews had secretly sent medicine, a printing press, and clothes to the forest for the Soviet partisans. Lanzmann asks about freedom in the ghetto. Smolar suggests that Jews of Minsk were different than the Jews of Warsaw with their mission to get out of ghetto and to fight. He confirms that the Judenrat collaborated with the resisters until March 1942 (the Purim Aktion). CR5 02:11:21 After the Purim Aktion, the Gestapo considered the Judenrat a resistance organization and hanged all the members in the street with signs saying, "Stalin's Bandits". Joffe, a Jew from Vilna, was named the new leader of the Judenrat, but there were no relations with Smolar's resistance group. A reward for "Jefim Stolarewich" (Smolar's ghetto name) was announced. The Gestapo shot 72 Jews who were questioned about Smolar's whereabouts and said they would kill everyone if they couldn't find "Jefim". Smolar hid in a Jewish hospital safe from Germans afraid of contracting typhus. Joffe showed the Gestapo a document listing "Jefim" as dead and they believed him. The Gestapo pressured and tortured the resisters' Soviet contacts on the Aryan side in July 1942. So, Smolar and his group decided to establish a Jewish partisan base outside the ghetto not only to fight the Germans but also to rescue Jews of the Minsk ghetto. Their task was to save any Jew who could escape the Minsk ghetto to the forests. CR6 02:22:43 The police issued a false passport to Smolar so he could move about freely. The Jews of Minsk created seven detachments of partisans (more than 2,000 people), mainly in Naliboki Forest. In 1943, there were 20,000 partisans in the forest, including Jewish children. Smolar addresses trading guns in the ghetto and frightening the police with wooden guns. In June 1942, Smolar was still wanted by the Gestapo and hid in an attic for two months. Then, there was an Aktion for three days when 20,000 Jews were shot, leaving only 9,000 alive in the ghetto. A Russian woman helped Smolar leave the ghetto by an order of the Soviet organization based outside the ghetto. From her flat near Kube's headquarters, Smolar sent underground messages to help get Jews into the forest. He was discovered by the Gestapo and returned to the ghetto, where he hid in a pit, managed to escape, and created a new detachment in the forest. 02:33:48 Picture ends. FILM ID 3378 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 03:00:08 to 03:33:47 CR7 9,000 Jews remained in the Minsk ghetto after the Aktion. Jews from Germany and Czechoslovakia were sent to Minsk, and many refused to go to the forest. The relationship between Western and Eastern Jews was not great. They dealt in trade matters only. Smolar describes the primary means of murder of the German Jews by gas vans, in contrast to the Eastern Jews who were shot and burned. He expresses shock at the behavior of the German Jews and their illusions of survival. The Minsk ghetto was divided. Kube privileged the German Jews. Smolar begins to describe a plot to poison vodka sent to the German front. CR8 03:11:28 The Soviets advised Smolar to abandon the poison plot, suggesting that chemicals should not be used in war. Smolar discusses additional methods of sabotage that his resistance organization pursued. In the forest, he led the Jewish brigade. The news of the ghetto being liquidated (received in September 1943) gave the Jewish partisans courage. German soldiers escaped through the forest in July 1944 and fought the already free partisans with force. Jewish partisan survivors were invited to march along with all the Russian partisans; those from the Minsk ghetto were selected to lead the parade. 10,000 Jewish partisans survived the war; of them, 5,200 had escaped from the ghetto in Minsk. Smolar suggests that the Soviet Jews had experience fighting as partisans. Lanzmann inquires about the death of German Jews by gas van, which Smolar again describes in detail. CR9 03:22:40 Lanzmann asks Smolar if he still considers Communism a solution to the Jewish problem. He says that Communism was an answer in the 1920s, but now, the only alternative is a national sovereign Jewish state, which is why he emigrated to Israel. Smolar insists on being surrounded by Jews. Smolar's battle decorations include the Red Star, a partisan medal with Stalin's portrait for victory over Hitler's Germany, and a Polish officer's cross. Smolar left Poland in December 1970 for Paris to write an anthology of Jewish poetry, and eventually illegally emigrated to Israel. FILM ID 3379 -- Camera Rolls #10A,B,C -- 04:00:08 to 04:02:44 CUs, Red Star, other medals, Polish cross, etc. [mute] FILM ID 3380 -- Camera Roll #11 -- 05:00:07 to 05:02:44 Wartime photographs. [mute] FILM ID 3381 -- Camera Rolls #12A,B -- 06:00:08 to 06:01:01 Photograph of a house in black and white. [mute] FILM ID 3382 -- Camera Roll #13 -- 07:00:08 to 07:10:00 CUs of Lanzmann conducting the interview - nodding and smoking. [mute]

    Germany and Switzerland

    Germany and Switzerland

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in Germany and Switzerland for SHOAH. FILM ID 4612 -- Berlin 1.2.3 Reichstag Le Mur traveling nuit Camera focuses on the front facade of the Reichstag- Dem Deutschen Volke and slowly pans out. (05:35) Sign reads,"Sie verlassen jetzt West Berlin." Berlin Wall behind the Brandenburg Gate. (07:20) Nightlife in downtown Berlin. Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church. This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Deutschkron, RG-60.5044. FILM ID 4613 -- Lehrter Bahnhof / Ext. Grunewald / LB 1 BER 4 Train station looking toward the Berlin TV Tower. S Bahn station at the Berlin - Grunewald stop. CU, memorial plaque to remember the tens of thousands of Jews that were deported from the station to Nazi death camps. This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Deutschkron, RG-60.5044. FILM ID 4614 -- Café Wien 1-7 La Danse At Cafe Wien, an older couple dances in a decorated dining room with a large chandelier. People watch from tables. This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Deutschkron, RG-60.5044. FILM ID 4615 -- Breme 1. Maison Becher. Ville Front gate of Kurt A. Becher’s house. A plaque on the gate includes Becher's name with “Kölner Aussenhandels GMBH Niederlassung Bremen.” His house can be seen from around the treeline. Car with the camera inside begins to drive away from the house passing pedestrians and buildings in the small town. Sign, “Betreten Verboten” [Do Not Enter] on a docked boat. Pan across the river with boats. FILM ID 4616 -- Duisburg Travellings Peniches triage Large factory complex in operation, filmed from a vehicle. Cars pass while driving on a highway, large smoke stacks in BG. Bridge crossing. Rural setting with a smaller building and two smokestacks. (02:55) MSs of Duisburg, streets and sidewalks deserted. (04:16) “BOB 59” FILM ID 4617 -- Essen-Krupp (Duisburg) Car drives out of a tunnel, approaches the city of Essen. (06:03) EXT of the factory complex. FILM ID 4618 -- Evian 6.7. Hotel Royal) Scenic view of hillsides. (01:20) Vehicle enters a dark tunnel through a mountain, lush green hillside. (02:20) Fields of farmland. The picturesque town of Evian located in a valley adjacent to a lake. Hotel Royal where the Evian Conference took place. FILM ID 4619 -- Bâle1-4 Routes Camion Equipe / Bâle 1-6 Scenes champetres Scenic alpine views of Switzerland filmed from a car. Van. Man fishing along a river near Basel. Large pasture with farmers and a tractor bailing hay. Farm houses. This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Pictet, RG-60.5054. FILM ID 4620 -- Geneve 1.2.4.5 La Ville and Geneve 3.4.6 Travelling Alles Rolle “BOB 188” In Geneva, CU of a boat named “Helvetie” cruises in a river with people standing on its deck. Sign next to pier, “The Famous Residences” with a map of famous estates located on the banks of the river. People walk across a bridge, shops and hotels line the street. Swans. (10:41) Driving in a forested area. Tree lined road. Facades of passing buildings. (13:17) Two lion statues face the street. Hotel de La Paix with a Swiss flag. People on sidewalk. (14:01) Palace of Nations. Gate of the United Nations complex in Geneva. Hedges and trees line a narrow drive to a house with an attached garage. (16:15) Alley with houses and parked cars. Path into forested area leads to an estate. Fortress flying the Swiss flag. Slow zoom of a tree lined street. This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Rossel, RG-60.5019. FILM ID 4622 -- Thyssen Travellings Panos Thyssen factory complex with smokestacks. Main street of an industrial area. (01:33) “Thyssen” in large letters. “BOB 60” Driving around the perimeter of the Thyssen factory complex. FILM ID 4623 -- Vieux Munich / Munich 5A-6A Arrivee Hamburg Divers Couples and individuals in city of Munich. Driving on a highway, overlooking smokestacks and power-lines. Several flags line the side of the road. Arriving in Hamburg, bridge. Green pastures with grazing cattle. FILM ID 4624 -- Wannsee DK 23.7B.19.32.22 This reel was probably filmed for the interview with Deutschkron, RG-60.5044. Lanzmann speaks over an intercom and tries to gain access to the villa at 56-58 Am Grossen in Wannsee, where Nazi leaders convened in January 1942 to determine the fate of millions of Jews across German-occupied Europe. Sign on the gate reads “Feuerwehr-Zufahrt.” EXTs. Children ride tricycles accompanied by two women. (03:37) Filming from a boat of the rear side of the villa mansion that backs up to a lake. Three children on the shoreline wave at the camera. (08:03) Lanzmann and crew walk around in the woods behind the villa, filming.

    US cities: Atlanta, Washington, DC and Panama City

    US cities: Atlanta, Washington, DC and Panama City

    Film

    Location filming of Atlanta, GA, Washington, DC, and Panama City, FL for SHOAH. FILM ID 4626 -- Atlanta Ville ATL 24 Highway toward downtown Atlanta, where Lanzmann interviewed Steiner and Reams. Shots of the city from a car. FILM ID 4627 -- Washington Ville 52.61.62 (probably related to the interview with McClelland or Karski) DC. Lafayette Square, the White House and the Eisenhower Executive Office Building from street level. Lanzmann plays with a squirrel in Lafayette Square. (19:50) East side of the Capitol Building. Jefferson Memorial. Lincoln Memorial. . FILM ID 4628 -- Panama Ville PA 15.16.14 Road by beach in Panama City, FL, where the interview with Paula Biren was conducted. Golfing. City. (07:46) Lanzmann is seated and speaks to Biren (off-camera); there is no audio.

    Nahum Goldmann

    Nahum Goldmann

    Film

    Born in the Russian Empire (now Belarus) in 1895, Nahum Goldmann received a law degree and PhD from the University of Heidelberg. He was President of the World Jewish Congress from 1948 to 1977 which he founded with Stephen Wise. He was a Zionist activist but was often critical of Israeli public policy. He was instrumental in creating the Jewish Material Claims Conference. Goldmann wrote an autobiography called "Sixty Years of Jewish Life" in 1969. He died in 1982. In this interview shot in Israel, Lanzmann and Goldmann discuss Stephen Wise, when the Jews realized the reality of the Final Solution, the Jewish Council, and the Arendt controversy. The interview was likely shot in Jerusalem from February 3-10, 1975 during the World Jewish Congress conference at which Gerhart Riegner was present. FILM ID 3865 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 Lanzmann interviews Nahum Goldmann. They talk about his writing, in which he condemns the outside world for its ability to see the inevitable catastrophe of the Holocaust and take any decisive action to save the Jews. They talk about the differences between the Jewish world and leadership between then and now - how it is more united today than before because of the existence of Israel and the successful representation of the World Jewish Congress. Goldmann says that the Jews are incredibly optimistic, which is how they’ve survived 2,000 years of diaspora, but that this can be dangerous. He says that in the early 1930s, German Jews did not take the threat of Hitler seriously enough. However, he says that the American Jews, who were and are the most influential group, were the worst in terms of evaluating the threat of Nazism. He is convinced that if the world Jewry had united to fight Hitler in the mid 1930s before Nazis consolidated power, hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved. They discuss Roosevelt’s idea to appoint Stephen Wise as the ambassador to Germany, as well as Goldmann’s own denaturalisation by Goebbels after his establishment of the WJC’s boycott on Germany. (12:00) Goldmann thinks that the power of the Jewish community is greater today because of general global guilt over a lack of preventative action during the Holocaust, but that this won’t last. He describes a growing sentiment, particularly amongst the younger German generation, that they were not responsible for what occurred. However, he does express the opinion that Roosevelt was a champion of underdogs, both a moral figure and a great politician, and that he did endeavor to help the Jews but bureaucracy prevented him from being successful. (15:38) Lanzmann points out what he perceives to be a paradox in their discussion: that the non-Jews were much more confident in the power of the Jewish community than the Jews themselves. Goldmann agrees. He says that Jews were much more concerned with patriotism and assimilation than consolidating community because of their fears of anti-Semitism. For example, the Alliance Israelite Universelle, a French Jewish organization, was very against the establishment of the WJC. They question if German Jews were overly patriotic and did not have foresight in assessing the Nazi threat. (21:52) Lanzmann asks what could have been achieved with specific action. Goldmann responds that when Hitler came to power, there was a peace treaty with Poland which gave Jews in Upper Silesia equal rights as a minority. The Nazi laws violated this treaty. The League of Nations then passed a resolution that Hitler could not enforce anti-Semitic laws because there was an international treaty guaranteeing equal rights. Subsequently, for the remainder of the treaty’s duration, the Nuremberg laws did not apply to Jews in Upper Silesia. He says that this international action shows that the Nazis could be forced to give in. If there had been a united Jewish action or boycott, he believes non-Jews would have joined them and decisive prevention could have occurred. (27:03) Lanzmann expresses the idea that the main factor of unification of the Jewish world at the time was Zionism. Goldmann responds that Zionist groups did not have much influence on the government in Europe, but that they were the most dynamic force. The founders of the WJC were 90% Zionist. They discuss the nature of Zionism at the time and its relationship with the WJC. Goldmann describes immigration to Palestine in the 1930s, including negotiating with the Nazis on the emigration of German Jews while preserving their personal wealth. The interview cuts off abruptly, with Goldmann asking, “Oh, is it finished?” FILM ID 3866 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 Continuation of Lanzmann interview with Nahum Goldmann. Goldmann talks about a debate at the Zionist conference over which he presided in Lucerne. He says he prevailed and thousands of German Jews were able to emigrate using capitalist visas. Goldmann says the great crime of the Zionist movement was the 1937 rejection of the English partition plan. Per Goldmann, if the partition would have been accepted, hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives would have been saved. (5:30) Conversation moves to the ‘American Period’. Discussion on how the news of the extermination plan reached Goldmann and how Goldmann communicated about this with the State Department. Conversations were had with Sumner Wells and Sommerville. There was initial skepticism about the killings but confirmation was received through the Vatican network of priests. Goldmann says that American Jews did not take this report too seriously. Goldmann gives two examples of the impact of this skepticism including a delay in saving Romanian Jewish children that resulted in them being sent to Poland. Goldmann discusses his own lack of action, along with American Jews, including failing to advocate strongly enough for the bombing of the concentration camps. (18:00) Goldmann discusses how neither he nor others knew the extent of the destruction of the European Jews and the idea for the Nuremberg trials and reparations. He goes on to talk about a meeting with Major General Dill(?) where he requested the bombing of the camps but was told the bombs were needed for the war effort. (26:20) Goldmann discusses the Evian conference in London of Jewish Zionist and non-Zionist organizations. MacDonald told Goldmann and Weitzman that it would be easy to transport and settle 700,000 Jews mostly in Palestine and the United States plus a few other countries. Overall, Goldmann says it was a terrible conference with all governments coming up with reasons why they couldn’t take any Jewish refugees. FILM ID 3867 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 Continuation of Lanzmann interview with Nahum Goldmann, who expands more on the Evian Conference and the poor outcome particularly given that it was after the Holocaust. Lanzmann and Goldmann discuss the book ‘Politics of Rescue’ by an Austrian Jew named Feingold. (3:00) Goldmann discusses his personal experiences in Germany and how he received urgent calls from Weiss and Weitzman to leave Germany immediately when Hitler came to power as he was in danger. Goldmann did not sense the urgency. However, he left Germany in late March 19??. to visit his father who was ill in Palestine. Goldmann was forced to take smaller trains as the larger trains had too many guards. His father died shortly after and Goldmann did not return to Germany as he believes he would have been arrested by the Gestapo and likely killed. (6:00) Goldmann talks about how he came close to being arrested by the Germans during his travels. (8:00) He continues describing how he was reported to have died in Tel Aviv and why his father-in-law, who owned a big department store in Germany, was saved because he sold goods to high ranking officials on installment. (11:00) The picture ends but Goldmann continues talking about how manuscripts and documents were taken by the Germans, which he eventually retrieved in an amusing way. (13:21) The picture returns without sound with silent shots of Lanzmann sitting in a chair interviewing Goldmann on the couch. Ends at 17:42.

    Theresienstadt and Prague

    Theresienstadt and Prague

    Film

    Location filming in and around Terezin and Prague, Czechoslovakia for SHOAH. FILM ID 3765 -- (White 48) Theresienstadt Ville et Crematoire The town of Terezin nearly deserted except for a few people in the streets. 02:44 Group of soldiers and a large blue bus in the street. Street signs "Litomerice, 3; Usti, 28; Praha, 59." Public parks, passing trucks, pedestrians. 11:22 A public square from above and clapperboard with "Bob 50" written on it. Terezin from an upstairs window. Children playing in a park. 13:15 "Bobine 49, Lubchansky Terezin." Street views. 16:00 A wooden tower can be seen over a fence. Train tracks, memorial in the shape of a menorah. The crematorium next to the cemetery. Views of the ovens inside the crematorium. 20:16 Views of the city from outside the crematorium. 22:06 "Bobine 47, Lubchansky Terezin." Street scenes, mostly deserted. CU of railroad tracks. 26:04 Sign next to the tracks reads "Krematorium Terezin." Park views, a bus passes by. Camera approaches a building marked "15 KSC, Prislusnici, Csla, Cestne, Splni, Zavery, Xv, Sjezou, Ksc," a soldier guards the door. More street scenes. 32:53 Same view of the public square from above. A hand cuts in front of the camera. 33:36 Sunset. 34:18 Public square from the ground. Street scenes and views of buildings in the town of Terezin. FILM ID 4625 -- (White 47) Prague

    Cracow

    Cracow

    Film

    Scenes of Kraków, Poland, including Nisko, Piotrkow Trybunalski, Wieliczka, and Mielec. FILM ID 3891 -- White 85 Nisko 1-7 00:20 A gloved hand holds up "Nisko 1” in front of a snowy backdrop. Snowy fields in a rural area. Simple wooden fence with low, grey buildings on the horizon. "Nisko 2” Snowy fields. Riverbank. “Nisko 2” The river. Snowy fields, with one tree, bare of leaves, in the middle. Two trucks drive along a road in the far-off horizon. More trees and the river. “Nisko 3” The river. Another snowy field. Trees; some appear to still have leaves. Patches of green grass are visible through the snow. Road sign: “Nisko 4, Rzeszow 63.” Paved roadway. A car drives along this road towards and past the camera. CU of the road sign. “Nisko 4” sign upside down in front of the shot. "Nisko 5” in front of the road sign. LS of the road sign. Shaky as the camera zooms in on a passing train. Street sign: “Janow Lub 16, Lublin 94.” Trucks. Snowy fields. INT of the car in which the cameraperson is riding. Image cuts out at 04:34. FILM ID 3892 -- White 85 Cracovie 99-103 00:10 Crooked shot of low brick buildings, people walking along snowy sidewalks. “Wie 2 [Wielicka 2]” A large green and stone building with a big arched window. People in winter coats walk along the street in front. Truck. Family walks along the sidewalk; the woman pushes a stroller and they walk past a statue. Benches and stone buildings, including one with a tall spire. Many pedestrians. 01:45 Sound: a man says “It’s running.” "Cracovie 100” Bearded man with a cigarette in his mouth hits a boom mic with the sign. Parking lot and buildings. CU on sign: “Bohaterow Getta.” Snowflakes fall. Cars drive by. A woman runs across the street. A voice behind the camera says, “Stop.” More cars pass. Grey buildings, a parking lot, busy highway. Bearded man hits the boom with "Krakow, 100-A. Stop.” "Cracovie 101” Parking lot. Street. Silent. A streetcar. Buildings, a small square, many pedestrians. “Hotel Europejski” Pedestrians run to catch the streetcar. Large white building with columns. Yellow building with “PKP”sign. Pedestrians. Truck loaded with boxes. More pans. LS of the PKP building. INT of a car. Illegible slate. Image cuts out at 06:20. FILM ID 3893 -- White 85 Piotrkow Trybunalski 00:20 People gathered outside of a low wooden building. Cows in a green field, farm. A tall red post with a sign: "Piotrkow Trybunalski.”The cameraperson walks forward. Shaky pan, then 360 view of farmhouses, cows, and a briefly-visible figure standing by the road. Image cuts out at 01:27. FILM ID 3894 -- Wieliczka and Mielec 1-6 00:10 Driving along a snowy road; other cars and trucks. Signs: “Miasto I Gmina” “Wieliczka” “Turystow” “Wita” "Bochnia 30, Tarnow 72, Rzeszow 152, Medyka 250, Lwow 331.” Passing by trees and low houses. Brief INT of the car. “Mielec” windows of a building, sign: “Bar Starowmiejski.” Town square, surrounded by two-story buildings. Pedestrians. Red-brick building. People, bundled in warm clothing and hats, wait by a bus station shelter. Town square. Trucks, cars, and a tank. People board a bus. Driving on a rural road alongside train tracks and electrical towers. INT car. Two men riding in an open horse-drawn cart. Road sign: “Mielec.” The countryside from the inside of the car. Red-brick and wood farm-style buildings. Image cuts out at 06:20.

    Assembled shots (Poland and Israel)

    Assembled shots (Poland and Israel)

    Film

    Assembled color negative rolls containing location filming of Poland and Israel for SHOAH. The original color negatives were received in cans labeled "Tu Ne Commetras Pas Le Crime," 1991. The prints were in cans marked "Retirages de Shoah" which roughly translates to "Miscellaneous Reprints of Shoah". FILM ID 3196 -- Bobine 3. Retirages de Shoah (43:16) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite G. Łódź] 00:42 Slate reads 'Cracovie' (Krakow); shots of three war-era photographs: many people walking in the street, carrying their belongings in large sacs; a soldier in uniform stands on a set of trolley tracks in the middle of a street, with a military truck in the background; a wide shot of an empty street littered with people's belongings, while a large group of people stand near a military truck in the background. 01:18 Slate reads 'Zbaszyn'; shots of three photographs: two show a large crowd of people gathered in what looks like a train station; young women waving from the deck of a ship. 01:56 Slate reads 'Raciac'; shots of three photographs: several hundred men lined up around the perimeter of a courtyard, while several people mill about in the center of the yard; a close-up of several men in line in the same location; the bodies of 10 men hang over an open pit while uniformed soldiers look on. 02:30 Slate reads 'Grodno'; shots of five photographs of a massacre: flat ground covered in hundreds of neatly arranged human skulls; another shot of the same skulls; four full skeletons lie in the foreground, and a pile of bones lies in the background; close-up of the pile of bones; wide shot of the skulls and bones in a vast field. 03:42 Slate reads 'Ciechanow'; one photograph, which depicts a line of men walking as far as the eye can see. 03:58 Slate reads 'Plonsk'; four photographs: men being unloaded from the back of a covered truck, while a soldier looks on; two men in uniform stand in front of the body of a man who has been hanged in the street; men, women, and children walking up a hill, while a soldier looks on; flames leaping out of the upstairs window of a building. 04:53 Contemporary shots of Poland: people milling around a grassy open area with patches of snow and tall buildings in the background; a view of snowy fields from a moving car; a man drives a horse-drawn cart down a road away from the camera; the camera zooms out, showing the cart, road, a church, and vast fields beyond; more shots of a cart, the church, and fields. 08:13 Slate reads 'Pologne 2 hiver bobine #16' (Poland 2 Winter Reel #16), then another slate reads 'Ext. Chelmno'; close-up of a memorial plaque, which reads (in Polish) 'Here lie the ashes of 340,000 Polish Jews and 20,000 Jews from other European countries'; the camera zooms out from the plaque, showing that it is affixed to a stone at the foot of an enormous field; a shot of the memorial on the site of Chelmno: a huge concrete slab with the words of a poem written by a Chelmno prisoner. Snowy street scenes in a town. 13:24 Slate reads 'Łódź ghetto'; various street scenes, building facades, people walking about; shots of trolleys running the length of Zgierska Street, which bisected the ghetto but was off-limits to Jews, who had to cross the street using a steep and narrow bridge; a woman walks two dogs across a snowy park. 20:07 Slate reads 'LOD 12'; nighttime shots of 'Łódź Kaliska,' the Łódź train station; travelers read the train schedule board and walk around; panning shots of the station square and trains coming and going. 25:26 Slate reads 'LOD 17'; daytime street scenes in Łódź; trolleys passing; various shots of a dead-end street. 26:42 Slate reads 'LOD 18', then immediately 'LOD 19'; panning shots of a busy intersection of two wide boulevards. 28:04 Slate reads 'LOD 20'; the imposing red brick facade of the Poznanski factory complex on Ogrodowa Street, with small flags waving along the length of its fence: Izrael Poznanski was a Jewish industrialist who made a fortune in the textile industry at the turn of the 20th century, particularly in the spinning of cotton; he died in 1900 and passed the business to his son, and the factory buildings were taken over by Nazi occupiers from 1940 to 1945. 29:06 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; more shots of the Poznanski complex from across the street. 29:57 Slate reads 'LOD 21'; shots of the Poznanski family's home, known as the Poznanski Palace, located next-door to the factory on Ogrodowa Street. 30:35 Slate reads 'LOD 22'; slow zoom out on a street in central Łódź; a young boy in winter clothes walks slowly down a sidewalk; a woman stands in her upstairs window and studies the street below; the facade of a building reads 'Pionier' ('Pioneer'); the camera moves through a series of doorways and dark passageways; shots of a dilapidated building in a back courtyard. 36:26 Slate reads 'LOD 24'; camera zooms in and then out on the upstairs windows of a large brick building. 38:14 Slate reads 'LOD 25'; shots of the same brick building; camera pans 180 degrees to show facades of the Catholic Church of the Assumption of Our Blessed Mary, in Plac Koscielny, while children play on its steps; the church was located in the Jewish ghetto during the war, and the Nazi occupiers used it first to store the possessions of Jews who had been killed in Chelmno, and then as a warehouse for down feathers. 39:13 Slate reads 'LOD 26'; A Łódź train platform - the train station of the neighborhood of contemporary Łódź where the Jewish ghetto once stood; pan to the central station building; people walk around the station square; a large group is congregated near the ticket window; people walking off platforms 1, 2, and 3 and out of a station door. Slate reads 'LOD 28', end of reel. FILM ID 4604 -- Bobine 4. Retirages de Shoah (16:41) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite D. Łódź] 00:06 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob. 7' Roadway with plowed snow at edges. 01:51 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 17' Another slate: 'Łódź Ghetto' Building, street scenes, cemetery, drive by snowy forest, villages in Poland. 06:02 Slate: 'Pologne 2 Bob 1' Another slate: 'VAR 1' Cemetery in Warsaw with snow; CU, Czerniakow's grave; sign: Jewish Cemetery Warsaw; drive by snowy fields. 13:00 [leader marked 'Neige de Siberie'] Drive by snowy field and forest [tail leader marked 'fin bob 4']. 14:38 [leader marked "Tu ne commettras pas le crime" de C. Lanzmann] Drive by snow covered fields with trees in background. FILM ID 4611 -- Boite C. Israel (47:20) [Tu ne commetras pas de crime Boite C. Israel] Pan over trees. 02:45 People and Israeli soldiers attend a memorial service among graves of Jewish people, most likely, the Kiryat Shaul Cemetery in Israel which erected memorials for Holocaust victims. "Cimetiere 1" Women wipe their noses and tears with a tissue. Crew member boom mic. Soldiers surround the memorial. Baskets on the ground. A crowd of women approach, some holding flowers and emotional. They stop at a tomb and place the flowers. The cameraman tries to record people's reactions. 00:10:56 “Bob. 60” Cliffs in Israel. Factory in the distance. Vast desert landscape. Scenes from a moving vehicle driving on a road through the desert. 00:21:59 Different landscape while driving. Bob 61. Herd of sheep makes its way through the desert, camel in the BG. 00:26:20 Man walks with a briefcase. Car drives along cliff, possibly near Masada. Bob 59. Cemetery, graves, cars. Small plane. Soldiers on road. Kids play and joke. Donkeys pull wagons. Soldiers get into a truck. Bright green crops.

    Treblinka (TR)

    Treblinka (TR)

    Film

    Location filming of Treblinka camp and Malkinia train station for SHOAH. Includes short interviews with Polish people living around the Treblinka camp in Iladou, Poniatowo, and Wolka Okraglik, Poland. Lanzmann talks with Polish men and women who describe having lived and worked in the fields in the shadow of Treblinka during its operation. They describe being forbidden to look that direction, the Ukrainians who worked in the camp, the scene at the train station when transports arrived, and the effects of the weather on the Jews. Lanzmann visits the quay where trains stopped at the entrance of the camp. A Polish man describes routinely finding the corpses of Jews in his field who had tried to escape; he would return the bodies to the camp to be incinerated. Lanzmann talks with a group of children in an attempt to discern current attitudes toward Jews. FILM ID 3369 -- Camera Rolls # TR85-87 -- 07:59:39 to 08:27:38 Lanzmann drives through a town near Treblinka. Windshield wipers; Lanzmann comments on the beautiful scenery. They approach a farm house where children play. 08:03:52 Lanzmann talks with an older gentleman, First Farmer, who initially resists being interviewed. The man had seen trains 80 cars long coming into the town. A woman off-camera repeats several times in Polish that, "It's not allowed to talk about it" and "You couldn't go in there." 08:05:42 TR 86 Conversation is distant with the loud noise of geese. A farmer witnessed two young boys who had escaped being beaten and killed by German officers. 08:07:07 Everyone 'trembled with fear' in that era, particularly because Germans posted a warning on the door of every house stating that those who helped Jews would be killed. 08:08:00 Lanzmann asks the woman, who had been standing silently whether she had been in Treblinka at that time, and she replies that she was very young. 08:08:15 While a man worked in the fields his sister stayed at home and a young Jewish girl took the sister because she thought if she was seen with a Pole from the town, she could trick the Ukrainians. The sister started to scream, neighbors came over, and the Jewish girl ran away. 08:09:21 The smell was so bad that when the wind blew from the direction of the camp, it was impossible to work. No one knew what was going on there. Second Farmer shouts out that they were burning people, and another woman says they were killing people. Comments are not translated into French because they are talking over each other. 08:10:26 Lanzmann presses whether they really knew what was happening in the camp, and the woman says it would take an entire day to discuss everything that happened. 08:10:39 First Farmer worked in a field about 100 meters from the camp and saw how they strangled the Jews, how they cried. They were not allowed to stop and look because if the Ukrainians saw them, they would be shot. 08:10:30 The man tells the story of a woman from Poniatowo who went to sell potatoes from her field to the people of another town. A Ukrainian on the observation tower saw her looking and shot and killed her. They cast glances at the camp but mostly worked with their heads down. 08:11:30 Foreign Jews arrived on a passenger train with a restaurant car, and they had been told they were going to work in a factory. They were rich Jews, whereas 'our Jews' (i.e. Polish Jews) arrived in cattle cars. The Poles would show the Jews the hand motion of being strangled, signaling that death was waiting for them. 08:13:55 When Germans guarded the transport, sometimes they would tell the Jews to get off the train and drink some water. Second Farmer and others told them to run away because they were on their way to death. It was forbidden to talk to the Jews. 08:14:36 The train would stay long enough to push 20 train cars to the camp. In the beginning, they killed them running. [Picture cuts out at several points.] 08:15:27 TR 87 Second Farmer lets Lanzmann visit his field where he still grows wheat and potatoes. Lanzmann asks whether he finds remnants of the camp when he is working and he says no. Others have found skulls on the surface of the grass. 08:17:37 People have found gloves, rings, earrings, and even 20-dollar gold coins. 08:18:47 When the last Ukrainian left, they flattened the camp and planted flowers. 08:19:05 The Poles talked to the Ukrainians because they got drunk at night and would look for locals, demanding to be driven back to the camp. The Ukrainians trafficked vodka. Some were cunning and some would escape. 08:20:10 Second Farmer says, "It's only Hitler who can know." First Farmer adds, "Who could have expected this? No one." Once, the Jews set fire to the camp, and everyone ran away to Poniatowo. Lanzmann clarifies the date: August 2, 1943. 08:21:26 The Poles worked in the fields that day, and the Ukrainians had gone to swim in the Bug. They rushed back and stopped First Farmer on the road and asked whether he had seen the Jews running. He said yes, they were running to the forest with grenades and guns. 08:23:20 Lanzmann asks the farmers why they think this happened to the Jews. Second Farmers replies that "the Jews have good heads," and that's why they were able to organize this revolt. Those who hid in the forest survived, but others were captured. 08:24:38 They talk about living normally with Jews before the war, and the two Jewish families in Poniatowo. Stores belonged to Jews and he bought his food from them. People used to say when there were no Jews, there would be no commerce, but there is still commerce now. [There is no corresponding transcript. This reel was preserved with the Gawkowski interview.] FILM ID 3811 -- Camera Roll # TR88 – Interview Paysans gare (chutes) (Iladou) When the transports arrived, it was very hot and the Jews were very thirsty. When they tried to exit the train, the Ukrainians would shoot them. The Ukrainians instructed the Jews inside the trains to give them their gold and sometimes the Ukrainians would hit them with their guns. There were up to 150 people in one car, and there were always some dead in the train car when they arrived. They were so cramped that those who were alive would sit on the corpses. It was so hot in June and July. Sometimes, he would give water to the Jews. They would try to escape the train by jumping through the windows. Sometimes they would intentionally jump out the window and sit on the ground, because they knew they would be shot in the head. When there were no more train cars, they would come to get the corpses with two or three cars. They would put all the corpses in those cars and take them inside the camp. 00:04:28 Lanzmann asks whether it bothered the Germans and Ukrainians to be doing all this in front of the local residents. The man says that they did not care. When a train was in the station, they could not cross the tracks but they were allowed to walk the length of the platform. 00:05:15 He wonders how man could do these things to another human being. He remembers an instance when a woman in a transport asked for water and a Ukrainian said no, and she threw the pot she was carrying on her head. He stepped back 10 meters, and began shooting at the car at random. He says that winter was worse because of the cold, but then says that maybe the Jews weren't cold on the trains because they were so cramped, and that in summer it was so hot that they suffocated. 00:07:26 Lanzmann and the gentleman walk toward his field. FILM ID 3812 -- Camera Rolls #TR 89-97 -- Paysan dans son champ (doubles) (Iladou) TR 89 Lanzmann talks inaudibly, they struggle to light cigarettes, the gentleman points out his field. TR 90 They stand in his field and discuss its proximity to what were the gates of the Treblinka camp, about 200 meters away. The stones that mark the location of the crematoria are also visible. His field is on a small hill, and he was able to see the convoys arriving. There was a wooden fence made of tree branches, about 3 meters high, but from his hill he could see over the fence. Lanzmann does the majority of the talking, and is incredulous as to the proximity of the man's field to the camp itself. TR 91 Lanzmann comments on the proximity of some of the fields to the camp, and that farmers were allowed to work their fields. The gas chambers were just on the other side of the fence. He was scared to work, but nothing ever happened to him while he was there. They discuss the poor quality of the dirt for planting. TR 92 Silent walk through the fields. TR 93. TR 94 They walk from his field toward the camp. Lanzmann asks whether residents of the villages on the other side of the camp also had fields adjacent to the camp, and the man says yes. They arrive at the platform where the train would offload Jews-- the platform could exactly accommodate 20 train cars.TR 95 The man heard screams from his field. The Jews would scream when the doors of the train cars finally opened, and they saw where they were. He describes the cries as a "lamentation." To him, it sounded like "one great common scream," instead of many voices. After a while, the screams sounded less human and more like the cries of geese. He was scared for his life, and thought he might be the next to be submitted to the fate of the Jews inside the camp.TR 96 The man would rather not have worked in this field, but his father asked him to because the family had few fields. Most of the people from the area near Treblinka are poor. 00:01:03 They stand on the platform where Jews disembarked from the trains. The man distinguished the screams from an orchestra that was playing. The man could see the people disembarking because there were no trees.TR 97 The man describes the moments after the Jews descended from the trains. Clothing went to one side, kitchen wares and tools to the other, and then they were pushed further into the camp itself. The gas chambers were on the left. FILM ID 3813 -- TR 97A-100 -- White 8- Le Camp Driving along a dirt road towards the memorial stones at Treblinka with Beethoven’s 7th symphony (the death march) playing. TR 99 Different views of the same, INT car. FILM ID 3814 -- TR 100A-100B -- White 8bis- Les Pierres Silent shots of stones at Treblinka memorial. FILM ID 3815 -- TR 100C-102 -- White 9- Eglise de Prostyn. Poniatovo: oratoire Silent shots of the church in Poniatowo, street and farming scenes. An elderly woman walks towards the camera with a flower bouquet. 08:55 TR 102 The woman who has lived in Poniatowo her whole life lays flowers on the altar of the Virgin Mary. Lanzmann asks what she is praying for, and she replies that she does not know. He asks her about the war, and she says, "How could I have known what was happening [inside the camp]?". She admits knowing bad things were happening, but that she was not allowed near the camp and never approached. Lanzmann presses her for more memories from that time, and she walks away. FILM ID 3816 -- TR 103A-104 -- White 9bis- Int. Poniatowo TR 103 Lanzmann meets an 84-year-old man in the village of Poniatowo, who remembers both wars. He says he remembers everything, and that Poniatowo is the closest village to the Treblinka camp. The man says he knew that Jews were being exterminated in the camp. "How could I not know?" he says. He explains that Ukrainians also killed a few people in this village, for the smallest thing. At the Treblinka station, three or four trucks came every day to pick up the corpses of Jews who had tried to escape and been shot. He remembers the smell of death coming from the camp when the wind blew from that direction, and of hearing children crying at night. He explains that many people arrived every day: Polish Jews in cattle cars, and Jews of other nationalities on passenger trains. The Jews, he says, thought they were going to work, and when local people warned them (with the hand motion of cutting one's throat), the Jews laughed. In the camp, he says, there were only about 20 Germans and many more Ukrainians. The Ukrainians would come into the town with a lot of gold and buy vodka and meat. They would visit prostitutes in the woods, too. He remembers seeing Jews running from the camp during the revolt.11:23 TR 104 Lanzmann asks whether the man remembers the revolt of August 1943. He does, though they did not pass through the village in their flight. He did see the corpses of those who were killed while fleeing. He helped Jews when he could, mostly by giving them direction and telling them what areas were safe, but he was very scared to do so. Lanzmann interjects that he knows a Jew who escaped from Treblinka, who hid for 15 hours in a swamp near Prostyn. Lanzmann asks the man whether he is saddened that there are no more Jews in Poland. He replies that no, he does not wish there were still Jews in Poland because he prefers to live amongst Poles. Additional shots of the group of locals with background conversation in Polish. FILM ID 3817 -- TR 105-110 -- White 10- Wolka Okraglik Cows and main road in village of Wolka Okraglik. 02:04 TR 106 Lanzmann meets a 45-year-old man from Wolka Okraglik, a village further away from the camp, and decides not to interview him. TR 107. Lanzmann and his interpreter peer into a local home. 04:46 (probably TR 110 – slate is concealed) Lanzmann asks whether there were women from Warsaw who came to the village during the war, and his interviewee replies that he never saw one, but that it's possible they were in the woods. A plane came twice a week to deliver goods to the Ukrainians working at the camp. Even the Ukrainians didn't have gold, though, he explains. "Gold was worth killing for." There was no way to alert the Jews as to what was going on in Treblinka because they moved the train cars quickly to the camp, and villagers were not allowed to approach them. Doing so was risking death, because, "the Ukrainians shot at people as though they were rabbits." Jews would run to try to escape, even naked. Every morning when he would come to his field, he would find the corpses of Jews laying in it, "like stalks of cut wheat." He would put the bodies in a wagon and wheel it to the entrance of the camp, where Ukrainian workers would burn them with the other corpses. This was common for fields around Treblinka, because many people tried to escape and were machine gunned down. Every night there would be escaped Jews in the village, even naked, who asked for help. They wanted to run as far away as possible. It was impossible to help them, because Ukrainians were in the village, except to give them clothes. His brother gave clothes to an escaped Jew. Very few who escaped survived. Lanzmann asks whether the residents of the village are very religious, and the man replies that they are. Lanzmann asks whether there were Jews in the village before the war, and the interviewee says no, but that some lived in another village six kilometers away. He saw the Jews from Kosow Lacki walk on foot toward the camp. When Lanzmann asks whether the gentleman is sad that there are no more Jews in Poland, he replies that it is not his business and that it doesn't matter to him.14:39 TR 109 Lanzmann and his interpreter enter private gates and meet a farmer who worked in the construction of the Treblinka camp. Once Jews began to arrive he was no longer allowed inside. He describes hearing the cries coming from the camp, as well as the orchestra which was there to "drown out the cries of the Jews." The man remembers watching the convoys of Jews from Warsaw arrive at Treblinka. Six transports arrived per day, and each had 60 train cars. Only 20 cars could be shunted to the camp to be unloaded at a time, so they divided each train into three parts. He worked in a field very close to the barbed fence, so he could hear the terrible cries. In fact, the camp was built partly on his fields. He could not go inside, but could hear everything. In the beginning, he couldn't handle the sounds, but eventually he became accustomed to it. Now it seems impossible that it happened, though he knows it did. Lanzmann asks him about the smell emanating from the camp. He explains that initially the odor was terrible because the bodies were buried in mass graves, and the smell became too much so they dug up the graves and burned the bodies, spraying them with gas. He explains that there were not many Germans working, about 120 Ukrainians, and about 1000 Jews working in the camp. The Ukrainians worked eight hours per day and were allowed to leave the camp after hours, so they would come to the village. FILM ID 3819 -- TR 31-32 – Interview Enfants Gare Lanzmann interviews a group of children and asks what they think of the history of their town. They don't believe all of the stories their parents tell, because they weren't there. One child comments that she knows what a Jew is, though she couldn't define it. A boy says that a Jew is "a guy who has a beard." 00:03:36 The children laugh and joke; the brother of one found a gold tooth in the forest, and they have found bones and rings as well, on the land where the camp used to be. Lanzmann presses them-- if they have found human bones, must the stories told by their parents be true? One says yes, they must be, and another says he does not believe because his family is Ukrainian. 00:07:34 The children say that Jews came to the camp for a meeting, and they saw them. A boy adds that the Jew he saw had a curved nose. When Lanzmann asks, the children say they don't have sympathy for the Jews because they are dark and have beards. 00:08:35 Lanzmann asks the group of children whether they attend church and whether they believe; the children say that they do, and ask Lanzmann whether he does. When he says that he does not, they yell that he is a capitalist and a Jew. Jews are capitalists, they say. The children admonish Lanzmann for not believing in God and when he asks whether it is worse to kill or to not be a Christian, they say that both are sins and both are bad. Lanzmann asks what they have learned about Jews in church, and they refuse to tell him. FILM ID 4647 -- White 1 Treblinka Bug “Bob 1” River and sky, sunset. CU of the sun on the water. Boat on the river and under a bridge. The water. FILM ID 4648 -- White 2 TR arrivee village; chutes TR1 “TR 2” Lanzmann driving a car (filmed from the backseat). He slows down while going past the “Treblinka” sign. He gets out of the car and walks up to old rail cars. “TR 3” Back in the car, he crosses over train tracks. CU “Treblinka sign” Small village in the area. “TR 1” More shots of Lanzmann driving parallel to the train tracks. They are slowed down by a horse drawn wagon. Picture missing from 00:08:26 - 00:10:19. Repeat shot of Lanzmann walking towards the rail cars. FILM ID 4649 -- White 4 TR gare wagons et enfants Children hang out in the railway cars. One swings back and forth on the sliding door rail. CU, blue eyes of one of the Polish boys. He smiles at the camera while sitting on the train. The other kids begin to play around on the trains again. Railcar with "X” on it. “Bob 3” FILM ID 4650 -- White 4bis TR Bug (Hiver-Train wagons) CU, modern train approaches and passes. Field beyond the tracks. Train goes the opposite way. Partially iced-over river underneath a bridge. FILM ID 4651 -- White 4bis TR Trains, wagons, rampe, hiver Shots between two parked trains, zoom out and pan over to "Treblinka” sign. Railway cars and path between the trains. More shots from the other side of the train. Different Treblinka sign. “Boite 3” Treblinka sign again, and shots of the railcars at the station. Moving train and town. Stones that mark the boundary of the Treblinka camp. Memorial and the symbolic cemetery. FILM ID 4652 -- White 5 TR gare calme + trains voyageurs Henryk Gawkowski sleeping on a bench. A Polish man wakes him up and tries to move him from the bench. They talk for a moment. Other men sit on the benches at the station. People ride bikes, sign: “Nigdy Wiecej Wojny”. A child rides his bicycle next to the train tracks at the “Treblinka” station. Men converse on the tracks. Woman with young boy. Herding cows. Fog rolls in across the fields. Train tracks. “Bob 22” Passenger train arrives. People get on and off at the Treblinka stop. The train departs, people wave from window. “T 34” Cows across the tracks. FILM ID 4653 -- White 6 TR en train: Rails. Paysages “Bob 23” Train. “Bob 24” Train moves along the tracks, filmed from the back of the train. More shots. People get off the train at the “Treblinka” stop. “T 44” Shots from the window of the train. A cow grazes. “T 35” CU tracks. “T 40” More shots. FILM ID 4654 -- White 6bis TR Voyageurs en train Three women sit on a train. CU woman. Man and a young boy. Woman looks at the boy. CU of a woman sitting in front of a wheel. She adjusts how she is sitting. CU of man eating on the train. CU of the man across from him.Two men sit across from each other having a conversation. “TR 34” CU of another woman on the train. CU of a couple. FILM ID 4655 -- White 7 TR Alentours Borowi A woman walks down the road into Treblinka carrying a sack on her back. Wagon passes with three men. Snow geese cross the road, the Treblinka sign in view. “Tr 80” Family on a wagon. Man laying on the side of a road. Claude Lanzmann tries to help, but Mr. Borowi continues sleeping. Railway cars in the distance. “Tr 82” Horse grazing, geese, man sleeping. CU railway car. Feeding the pig. Railway cars. Pigeons on the roof. A disabled man, wagon, man sleeping. “Tr 83” Lanzmann tries to wake the sleeping man. Wagon filled with hay. CU of railway cars. FILM ID 4656 -- White 50 TR 118-126.131.132 Rampe. Pierres Memorial stones representing the railroad tracks into Treblinka. “TR 119” The camera pans over the stone rail road and the stones marking the border of the camp. “TR 122” More of the stones. “TR 123” Memorial in Treblinka camp. “TR 131” Lanzmann. The ramp. “TR 132” More shots of the tracks and the ramps. “TR 121” CU of the memorial on the site of the gas chamber. “TR 125 &136” FILM ID 4657 -- White 51 TR 127-128,133-140A.174A. Monument pierres Field with trees. Treblinka memorial stone for the gas chamber. Memorial graveyard. “TR 134” More shots of the memorial and a burial site. “TR 135” CU text on the stones. “TR 137” HAS of Treblinka camp grounds. Horse and worker in the distance. CUs, memorial stones. “TR 138” “TR 140” CU of the memorial stone for the site of the gas chamber. “TR 127” “TR 128” More of the monuments. FILM ID 4658 -- White 52 TR 129-130 De l'entrée du camp a la rampe chutes Shots of the camp entrance to the ramps. FILM ID 4659 -- White 53 TR 171A-171 Travelling au tour du camp Driving around the camp. Stones marking the perimeter of the camp. Traveling into Treblinka camp, along the ramp and then out of the camp and through the surrounding woods. Memorial stones. “TR 171” The vehicle drives alternative routes around the camp. FILM ID 4660 -- White 54 TR 172-174.196A.196. Lazarett Sable Marche Location where Lazarett was located. Walking along the ramp and railroad tracks at Treblinka. FILM ID 4661 -- White 55 TR 185-188.198. Des rails a la rampe Color & some sound. Operator with a boom fiddles with the camera and steps away. Men speak. Tracking shot along and across railroad tracks. Dirt path with trees and plants on either side. Repetitive shots of railroad tracks, moving backwards, the tracks disappear. (05:54) Clapperboard in car with 98V and TR (upside down). Railroad tracks, moving to dirt ramp. Pan of skinny trees, dirt ramp, wood piles. (09:18) Clapperboard with 88V and upside down TR. Railroad tracks with train. (09:45) Clapperboard with upside down TR and 98V. Train approaches head-on down the track. Locomotive horn. (10:28) Operator with boom taps white clapperboard. More panning of the railroad track. Train passes by. TR 87. Tracking shot of the railroad tracks, dirt path, vehicles passing. (13:35) End. FILM ID 4662 -- White 56 TR 201-206C Gare: panneau + oies Silent. Train station at Treblinka. Sign: “Rozead Jazdy Pociagow. Daszerskich St Treblinka.” Pan of building to white sign “Treblinka”. TR 206. Low wooden building with Treblinka sign. Pan to a different sign. (01:22) Man and woman walk by. Clapperboard TR 201. Sign on building: “Nigdy Wiecej Treblinki” surrounded by trees behind railroad tracks. TR 202. “Treblinka” brief section without image. Pile of dirt beside railroad track, trees. Biker on path. Pan of buildings at the station, bench. Swans. Cyclist. CU of swans walking along dirt path. Woman in boots. TR 204. Swans. Pan of train cars. Bare trees. Train stops, smoke. TR206. Train with smoke behind trees. Swans. (6:45) TR 205 Man in hat at wooden well, cranks the handle, picks up a bucket and distributes water. Train cars. Birds on bare trees. Station building with white Treblinka sign. Shot between two train cars. Treblinka sign through trees. Swans. Station. (10:16) End FILM ID 4663 -- White 57 TR 116-117C.167.178-180. Gare: Trains nuit Color & some sound. Treblinka train station at night. Headlights, smoke. Train disappears. Building with white Treblinka sign. INT, one light is on. Trees in the wind. Closer shot of the sign. Hand with white clapperboard “TR 117”, flips card upside down. Train moves slowly with lights on and smoke coming from the chimney against the darkening sky. Red lights in distance. TR 167. Lights. Building with numbers “970-9452”. Shot between two trains. Rain. People talk (silent). Field with fence, bare trees, and houses in the background. Pan of area with cows, railroad tracks, power lines, and buildings. Person walks next to railroad track. TR 178. Grassy area. Blue car. Train pulls out of the station (sound), smoke floats towards the camera. Pan of building and the railroad tracks with trees and dirt piles. Person with an umbrella walks next to tracks. Red stop lights. Pan of stationary train. White Treblinka sign. Train pulls into the station. Brief section of sound without picture. Field with water. TR 116. Train pulls away from the camera. Pan of tracks and surroundings. (11:33) Man says “It was take number 180” White clapperboard “TR 180.” Railroad station with white Treblinka sign. “ZBUZE” (13:19) End. FILM ID 4664 -- White 58 TR 161-163.166.169-170E.192. Les Pierres TR 161 Memorial stones at Treblinka. Field with trees and a rock tower, alternate shots. TR 162 (upside down). TR 163 Trees with memorial stones. TR 166 (upside down). CZESTOCHOWA engraved on a stone. Tower and memorial. Fog. TR 170 (upside down). (6:26) Stone memorial. Traveling shots. Black rocks. Engravings. Tower with menorah. TR 170 (upside down). Engravings including Polaski and Austria. Rock tower. (11:22) End. FILM ID 4665 -- White 59 TR 176-177,210-216 Alentours Borowi rush Surroundings of Treblinka related to the SHOAH interview with Czeslaw Borowi (RG-60.5032). Dirt path, barren trees, chickens. Pan of houses in proximity to the Treblinka camp. Fog. Repeat shots. TR 177 (upside down). Two people walk down a muddy path. Houses. Brick building with green doors. TR 210 inside a vehicle. Pan of neighborhood homes. Dog in a window. Train. More shots of the Treblinka area. Truck with hay. Arm holds a white card with TR 211. Alternative shots. (10:32) End. FILM ID 4666 -- White 60 TR Poniatowo Divers Various shots of the area near Treblinka and locals in Poniatowo. Dirt road. Farmer with cows. Cart. TR 118 (upside down) Three men with a boat. Cows walking across the empty railroad tracks. Man on motorcycle. Woman walking with a bike. TR 165 Pan of forest and landscape. Swans. TR 175 (upside down) Woman walks with a stick. TR 209 Ducks in water. Horse-drawn wagon carries passengers. TR 207 Muddy street with horses. Woman with an umbrella. Church and everyday activity in the village. TR 208 Field and water. Horse galloping behind a fence. Traveling shot, car driving down the road in the rain, windshield wipers. Train on tracks. Yellow sign says “Treblinka” Pan of the area surrounding Treblinka. (13:07) End. FILM ID 4667 -- White 61 TR 181-184B Kossol TR 181 Rainy day. Sign directing traffic to: “Mauzoleum Walki ! Meczenstwa TREBLINKA 9” Horse-drawn wagon, bikers, cars in the town 9km from Treblinka. Treblinka sign. Church and locals. Pan of buildings. TR 182. Blue Treblinka Sign. People and children on the street. Horse-drawn wagon with a man and two women with pink flowers drives by (with sound). Camera follows the wagon as it drives aways. People talk and cross the street. (05:21) Man says 183 and holds up TR 183. Local area, traffic. Treblinka Sign. Women walk towards the church and under its arch. Street in town. Man says, “Stop.” Driving along the road, various shots of the area in close proximity to Treblinka camp. TR 184 Wolka Okraglik sign in yellow. Local Polish people. (9:23) End. FILM ID 4668 -- White 62 TR 140-147 Gare Malkinia Reel contains sound. Moving train passes by. Men stand in front of the Malkinia station house across the tracks. Timetable schedule. White sign: “MALKINIA.” Man leans against the railing. Train slowly approaches the station, passes. Repeat shots. TR 143. Building with “MALKINIA” sign is visible through the space between two train cars. Woman stands outside the building. Man in a hat walks by. Train pulls away. Pan of empty tracks. Passengers gathered. A man hangs off the train and steps off to walk beside it. An engineer connects the car to another car. TR 144. The man is visible between two train cars. Train moves (sound). Pan to sound operator with boom. Trains. TR 144. TR 145. Stopped railcar. Train approaches and passes. Man. Malkinia sign. Pan of tracks. TR 147 (upside down). More shots of trains at the station. (13:15) End. FILM ID 4669 -- White 63 TR 141.167.199-200. Train Bug Malkinia->Treb "20 sec de voyage de nuit" Some sound. Car crosses a bridge over the Bug River. TR 200. Road from the front of the car on the bridge. Trees alongside a road. Sign for the MALKINIA rail station near Treblinka. Train, railway tracks. At dusk, bridge above river, landscape shots, crossing the bridge. Crewman says “Stop” (4:35) End. FILM ID 4670 -- White 64 TR 148-152 Gare Malkinia Sound in parts. Railway station, tracks. MALKINIA sign. Officer steps on the median. Trains pass. (sound) (3:30) Railcars. Boom guy. TR 148 (upside down). Various shots of the station. Man says “149”. (4:55) Train approaches, officer waves a yellow flag. TR 150. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign. Passengers. TR 151. MALKINIA sign. (6:55) Train passes. Man walks by the stopped train, switches lever and walks across tracks. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign and blows its horn. Boy in a red coat walks by. Engineer pulls another lever. Train approaches the MALKINIA sign and passes it. (10:43) Train horn. Empty tracks. TR 152 (upside down). (11:36) End. FILM ID 4671 -- White 65 TR 153-159 Gare Malkinia Calme Some sound. Trains at Malkinia station near Treblinka. TR 158 Train with smoke. Children walk on tracks. Horse-drawn wagon, bicycles. Pan to railcar, surrounding buildings, and tracks. TR 159. Repeat shots, MALKINIA sign. Trains. (3:30) (sound) Train passes. TR 153 (5:22) Empty hallway. Passengers wait. White card with TR 154. People wait for the train on the platform. A man steps off the train and climbs onto another. Scenes at the railway station. TR 155 (9:15) Train passes (sound). Some shouts. (10:31) Sign: “ROZKLAD JAZDY POCIAGOW” TR 156 (upside down). (10:55) End. FILM ID 4672 -- TR 116 [Item 3] Train with smoke coming from the chimney approaches the camera and passes. Pan to countryside and river. White card with “TR 116” is held up. Hand covers camera. (2:19) End. FILM ID 4673 -- White 37 Malkinia / Cochons Sound. In Malkinia, nearby to the Treblinka camp: horse-drawn wagons, Polish residents, farm animals. Inaudible dialogue. Man shoos pig from a cage in the wagon to a stall; sleeping pigs. Pan. Men smoke and shake hands. Boom guy taps microphone. Crowd. Farmer moves pigs to a pen. Man says “Stop.” People continue to talk indistinctly. Wagons travel down the muddy path. (6:35) End.

    Dr. Wiener - Cracow

    Dr. Wiener - Cracow

    Film

    Dr. Wiener leads Lanzmann around the Jewish quarter of Krakow and describes various buildings, sites, and his personal connection to the Holocaust. Wiener and Lanzmann talk with Israël Hertzl, a Polish veteran of the Soviet Army. FILM ID 3890 -- Wiener 1-2 Travelling Cracovie INT, Wiener seated in passenger seat of car. Driving tour of the city. Wiener describes streets, buildings, and areas of Kazimierz in Krakow, including Joseph Strasse, on which many of the Orthodox Jewish community lived before the war. He goes on to say that the quarter was the center of Jewish trade. Wiener and Lanzmann stop at the old synagogue and Wiener explains the history and current state of the building before pointing out the border of the Jewish quarter, buildings where Jews lived, and former locations of Jewish shops. He goes on to comment that he was born in the Jewish quarter, he lived on the streets throughout the war, and that his mother was in the Krakow Ghetto and his father in a camp. He also repeatedly comments on how much of the city has been reconstructed. Wiener points out the house that belonged to the Kassenellenbogens, a prominent Jewish family, a Jewish cemetery established after a cholera outbreak, and schools. Lanzmann and Wiener comment on the progression of Jewish and national culture. Wiener shows Lanzmann the old wall to the Jewish quarter. 01:20:00 Silent traveling shots of Krakow. Horse/cart. Ghetto buildings. Man pushing cart loaded with boxes. Tram. FILM ID 3880 -- Camera Rolls 3-10 Cimitiere Cracovie In Krakow, Wiener explains the history of the city's oldest Jewish cemetery and its current status as a memorial. A Polish gentleman named Israël Hertzl joins the conversation and tells Lanzmann and Wiener that he was a driver and German interpreter in the Soviet Army during the war and earned decorations from both Poland and the USSR. When prompted by Lanzmann, Hertzl says that he identifies first as Jewish and then as Polish and goes on to explain that his first wife, mother, and four brothers were all deported and killed. He elaborates on his Jewish identity and notes that he learned Yiddish and Hebrew, the few Jews remaining in Poland are very proud, and the efforts made by the Jewish community to build up the culture. Wiener's wife adds her thoughts to the conversation. Wiener, his wife, and Hertzl talk about their political views, with Wiener noting that he has been a member of the communist party for fifty-one years. They also discuss their views on religion and the Pope. Hertzl, born in Stanislaw, describes the town's geographic location, its history, and his life there from 1945-1957. He goes on to say that although he moved back to Krakow after his marriage in 1957, he and his wife visit Stanislaw (now part of Russia) every year. FILM ID 3881 -- Camera Rolls 11-14 Stele Cracovie Silent shots of the Holocaust memorial. Wiener and Lanzmann visit a Holocaust memorial for the Polish and Hungarian Jews who were killed. Lanzmann presses Wiener for more information about the inscription on the monument and they discuss its wording.

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Film

    Interviews with local Polish people around Sobibor, Poland, including long sequences of a Catholic mass in Wlodowa. Lanzmann asks about the Jews in Wlodawa before the war and inquires how non-Jewish residents got along with the Jews. Includes shots of the Sobibor camp and environs. FILM ID 4674 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare CU, elderly woman and man sit indoors at the Sobibor train station. “Sobibor” sign. Local people sit on benches outside waiting for train. A train pulls into the station. End clapperboard: SOB 1. 01:03:03 Passengers look out the windows of the railway cars as the train departs from the station. End clapperboard: SOB 3. 01:04:54 More shots of the EXT of the railway station, another train arrives. Clapperboard: SOB 6. 01:07:03 Different views of a train departing from the Sobibor station. 01:08:18 Lanzmann and a female assistant run across the tracks gesturing to the cameraman to turn around and film the last railcar. Crew and soundman signal end of roll. 01:09:12 Another train on the tracks. 01:09:39 End FILM ID 4675 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 15 INT, elderly couple inside the Sobibor station. End clapperboard: ALEPH Holocauste / Lanzmann-Glasberg / SOB 4. EXT shots of the “Sobibor” sign at the railway station. Unidentified crew-member signals the end of camera roll SOB 5. No picture until 01:01:30, brief sequence of a woman walking along the grassy tracks. 01:01:36 Moving shots along the tree-lined railway tracks. 01:03:53 End FILM ID 4676 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 16 Sobibor Foret Forest surrounding Sobibor train station (trims). 01:00:57 End FILM ID 4677 -- Sobibor Bte 16 Coupe Piwonski Bois Mr. Piwonski smokes a cigarette outdoors at the Sobibor railway station. Lanzmann and Barbara join Mr. Piwonski on the bench (silent shots). They converse. Camera zooms in on them, CU of “Sobibor” sign. Different angle of the three of them on the bench. 01:08:51 End FILM ID 4678 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes SOB 30A Piwonski More shots of the railway station, with Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski standing in the grass by the tracks. 01:01:20 Clapperboard: SOB 30. The three sit on a bench, and walk back and forth across the tracks, gesturing (silent). End clapperboard: SOB 30. 01:05:52 End FILM ID 4679 -- Sobibor SOB 30 Piwonski Gare Mute shots of the Sobibor station house; Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski approach the tracks and the station. 01:01:26 End. FILM ID 4680 -- SOB 33-37 L'explique SOB Gare SOB 33. Lanzmann stands in the center of the railway tracks at the Sobibor train station and describes the history of the camp at Sobibor and the geography of the railway station (no transcript). 01:03:27 SOB 34 Another take of Lanzmann at the tracks. 01:06:33 SOB 35 Take 3. 01:09:46 SOB 36 Take 4, close-up. 01:12:09 SOB 37 Take 5, close-up. Lanzmann laughs. 01:12:55 End FILM ID 4681 -- White 16 Sobibor Foret Bte 16, Chutes Bte 87 Sobibor Gare Driving towards Sobibor on a tree-lined, dirt road. Side view of Lanzmann driving. 01:04:05 SOB 61 Snowy train tracks. PKP railcar. Snowing. The train departs the station. 01:07:29 Main station house, railway tracks, zoom into “Sobibor” sign. 01:10:09 End FILM ID 4682 -- White 17 Sobibor Christ Bte 17 Chutes Various shots of the statue of Jesus Christ at a crossroads in Sobibor. 01:09:42 Claude stands in front of the statue holding a “Sobibor” sign. Brief, locals at the roadside repairing a signpost. 01:12:20 End FILM ID 4683 -- White 18 Sobibor Mirador Bte 18 High-angle view of Sobibor forest from the observation tower, ominous clouds, green trees. Logging factory. Railway tracks. 01:02:50 End FILM ID 4684 -- White 19 Wlodowa Eglise Sound begins at 01:00:10; no picture until 01:00:39 (a brief shot of the church tower) and picture cuts out again until 01:01:05 Polish parishioners exit the church doors. 01:01:46 SOB 38. Mute shots, EXTs of the church in Wlodowa. Sign: “1 Ul. J. Gagarina” People leaving the Catholic mass, gathered outside the church. 01:06:07 SOB 39 Man kneels by a tree. 01:08:21 Locals (with sound). SOB 40 01:08:45 Street scenes in the town, people with umbrellas. 01:10:57 SOB 41 01:11:35 INT, the crowded church service (sound at first, then cuts out), people standing, various CUs. 01:15:46 BOB 85 Crowd spills outside the church, Catholic mass celebrated in Latin is heard on loudspeakers, people kneel in the grass with umbrellas. 01:17:42 SOB 44 01:17:50 Picture cuts out briefly until 01:18:04. CUs, parishioners under umbrellas outdoors, sounds of the church service cuts in and out. CU, children sharing an umbrella. Baby rocked in carriage. 01:20:35 Man covers the camera with his hand as service continues. Another baby in a stroller. 01:21:43 Elderly woman in kerchief, women and children. Men stand under tree outside of the church in Wlodowa. LS of the crowds gathered at mass. 01:24:06 Several newborns are brought into church to be baptized. SOB 48. 01:25:27 INTs, baptismal service. 01:29:55 Sound cuts out. INTs, church service. SOB 49 01:30:54 End FILM ID 4685 -- White 20 Wlodowa Ville SOB 52 Mute travelling shots from a car of the town of Wlodowa including the former homes of Jewish residents and an amusement park. 01:23:25 End FILM ID 4686 -- White 21 Wlodowa Synagogue SOB 55 EXT of old Wlodowa synagogue. 01:02:08 SOB 56 Outside the synagogue, Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the synagogue is very old, and he replies that the synagogue was built before the Catholic church, and the church is 460 years old. Lanzmann asks how long Jews have lived in Wlodawa, and the man says he has no idea, but that they have always been here. He explains that the Jews are merchants, and almost nomads, and that they arrived here for commerce, stayed, and built the synagogue. The man continues that it is too bad they cannot go inside the synagogue-- it is currently being rehabilitated, and the old paintings inside are being restored. Lanzmann asks for what purpose it is being rehabilitated, and he says that the State is turning it into a museum. He says that Jews came from Palestine and saw the synagogue, which had been turned into shops, and asked for it to be restored. 01:05:18 Coupe, muffled conversation among the crew. 01:05:27 Mute shots of the synagogue. 01:07:04 End FILM ID 4687 -- SOB 45-47 Interview Sortie Messe Wlodowa SOB 45 Lanzmann asks one of the church participants whether he knows what Sobibor is. The man, who tells the crew that he is 65, replies that he is from Wlodawa, so of course he does; he was there. At Sobibor, he says, there was a camp where they burned Jews. The man fought on both fronts during the war, and spent time in Wlodawa during the war and during the German occupation. When asked whether there were Jews in Wlodawa at that time, the man replies that there were a great number-- half the population. When the Germans arrived, he explains, they began deporting Jews to the Sobibor camp, as well as to others. Before the war, he says, the Jews in Wlodawa were largely merchants and artisans. They lived all over town, and another man in the crowd of parishioners (Mr. Filipowicz) explains that the streets where Jews once lived have since been renamed. Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the Jews knew their fate when they were deported from Wlodawa, and he replies that they could not have known exactly what would befall them. Even before the war, though, he says Jews knew they were doomed. They felt it. When Lanzmann asks whether the man is sad about what happened to the Jews, he replies that every faithful Christian thinks that every human being deserves to live. Lanzmann asks whether he got along with the Jews, and he replies that he did and that the non-Jewish residents of Wlodawa did their best to help Jews when there was a ghetto in the town. He explains that it was a transit ghetto, full of Jews from France and Vienna on their way to Sobibor. The ghetto lasted two years, and was totally closed. The ghetto was overseen by German, Polish, Ukrainian, and Jewish police forces. Before the war, the population of Wlodawa was 7500, of whom 4000 were Jews. Shots of the group of Polish men, some of them speak as well. 01:06:10 SOB 46 The man continues on responding to Lanzmann’s questions about a synagogue in Wlodawa. A woman agrees that there was one, and that it was very beautiful. When Poland was still ruled by tsars, the synagogue existed-- it's even older than the Catholic church. Lanzmann asks what has become of the synagogue now that there are no Jews, and they reply that there is still a Jewish family in the town, and that the synagogue has been returned to the state. Lanzmann asks how this family survived the Holocaust, and the gentleman replies that they hid in the forest. He also talks about several families in which the father is Catholic and the mother is Jewish, and the children are raised Catholic. The man cannot remember the names of these families. Lanzmann asks whether there is a Jewish cemetery in Wlodawa, and there were two. The Nazis destroyed the Jewish cemeteries during the war, and after the war, one was turned into a park, where a few of the tombstones still remain visible. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews living in Wlodawa before the war were rich or poor, and he replies that there were all types, but most were small merchants and artisans who were not rich. Lanzmann asks how he experienced, 'the annihilation of the majority of their town's population,' and how he feels about it now. The man replies that they were scared that they would be the next to be targeted. Lanzmann asks whether he prayed for the Jews during that time, and he replies that of course he did. He could not talk about the subject in church, because Germans often waited outside of the church to conduct raids. A church bell rings in the background. Lanzmann asks why the man thinks this all happened to the Jews in particular. The man replies that Hitler's great-grandfather was Jewish, and that Jews assassinated him, so when Hitler became an adult, he decided to avenge his ancestor. Lanzmann makes an allusion to the story of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, and asks whether that might have anything to do with why the gentleman thinks the Jews were exterminated. The man responds that he is not sure, but he is a believer and that when Christ died, he said his death would be avenged, and that he was killed by Jews. 01:13:50 Lanzmann pulls another man out of the group of onlookers, who has something he wants to say. The man wants to make sure that listeners understand that the extermination of Jews took place not only in Wlodawa, but everywhere in Poland. He continues that the Germans simply wanted to exterminate every race that was not their own, starting with the Jews but eventually the Polish people, too. He says that there were two insurrections in Warsaw, one led by Jews and another by Poles. Lanzmann tries to speak to a woman who doesn’t want to answer his questions. Other men in the group of onlookers respond to Lanzmann, saying that everyone in Wlodawa knows what happened, but what they lived through was very different than the French experience, 'like night and day,' and so they cannot discuss it with Lanzmann because he cannot understand. Lanzmann presses the men to speak further, saying that this is precisely why he (Lanzmann) is here in Wlodawa asking these questions, trying to understand. They tell Lanzmann to visit Majdanek, where there is a memorial and all of the proof of what happened, but will not speak to him further, not even when Lanzmann replies that he has already visited. 01:16:46 SOB 47 Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman and one of the men (identified in the transcript as Mr. Filipowicz) who spoke earlier. He asks her why she had thanked him for still being interested in this history. She replies that the war was a very difficult time, where one could not even go to church, and that thankfully life has returned to its normal rhythm. Lanzmann asks her to elaborate about not being able to go to church, and she replies that one could, but that Germans would often station themselves outside of the church at the end of mass, and would conduct raids there. Lanzmann asks her whether Nazis ever shut Jews in the church, and she says no. She continues that she lives in a small village 30 km from Wlodawa, where there were not many Jews. The Jews in her village dressed differently than Poles before the war, and you could recognize them from the rest of the population, but then they began to dress like everyone else, except for the yellow star. Lanzmann asks the woman and man what they think of the Jewish religion. They say they are not very interested in it. The woman continues, however, explaining that Judaism is the oldest religion and that 'our' ten commandments come from Judaism. Lanzmann asks what they think of Jewish religious dress-- their clothes, their beards, etc. (sounds of a church service in the background). Mr. Filipowicz responds that it is not so different from Christian friars who wear religious dress. They discuss Jewish religious dress further, and then Lanzmann asks whether they found the Jews "harmless people or worrisome people." The man replies that they were fairly harmless, and that the only reproach against the Jews was that they engaged in commerce, meaning that they made a lot of money and did not work as hard as the Polish people farming the land. Lanzmann asks whether Polish people now hold those jobs in commerce, and the man replies that they do not, that the Polish government does it. The man discusses Jewish commerce before the war, saying that many Poles preferred to shop in Jewish stores because if they did not have enough money, the Jewish store owners would give them credit and let them pay later. Lanzmann asks whether the Polish state is as good at commerce as the Jews were, and the woman laughs and replies that she is content with it. Lanzmann asks whether the interviewees considered the Jews to be members of the Polish population, or whether they saw them as outsiders. The man replies that they were commonly seen as "full members of the collective Polish society," and that they did Polish military service and worked among and alongside the Polish people. Lanzmann then asks them to show him the part of the town that had been the Jewish ghetto. 01:26:18 Lanzmann walks arm-in-arm with Mr. Filipowicz, children follow as they walk down the street, sounds of the church service. 01:27:04 Picture cuts out. 01:28:20 “Coupe” FILM ID 4688 -- SOB 50.51 Wlodowa Filipowicz SOB 50 Inside traveling car, muffled conversation-- Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and a few Wlodawa residents drive to the area of town where the Jewish ghetto was once located. Mr. Filipowicz explains that the first ghetto was created in 1940, and that a second, closed ghetto was created in 1942. Most of the buildings that were there at the time have been destroyed and rebuilt. Lanzmann asks to see houses where Jews live which still stand. They walk to a street where he points out the houses in which Jews once lived. He knows every house which was owned by Jews, though he cannot remember their names. He points out one of the houses, and recollects watching Germans throw three Jews, including an elderly woman, from the second-story balcony. He points out the home of a man named Yenkel, who was killed in Sobibor, as well as the old locations of different Jewish businesses. They walk through streets where Filipowicz says that before the war, every home was Jewish. Lanzmann asks him several times how he knows so much, and how he remembers the old residents of every single home and building in what was one the Jewish ghetto, but he never truly answers. 01:11:22 SOB 51 Lanzmann and Barbara continue to drive around the old Jewish ghetto of Wlodawa as the local resident, Mr. Filipowicz, points out the locations of what were once Jewish homes and businesses. He shows them the old synagogue, and tells a story of when, as kids, he and friends once caught a bird and set it free in the window of the synagogue during a service, 'just as a joke.' The streets still have the same names they had when Jews lived there. As they continue driving, Lanzmann remarks that the entire town center was Jewish homes and businesses, and the man agrees. He explains that most Poles lived further from the center of town. They drive to the old Jewish cemetery, which is now a park. 01:22:14 End FILM ID 4689 -- White 87 SOB 61-64 Gare Voies (Vu+CL) Snowy shots of the train station and railway tracks. 01:14:43 End FILM ID 4690 -- White 88 Sobibor Foret Gare, Chutes SOB 75 Snowy shots of Sobibor forest and railway tracks. SOB 71 01:14:44 End FILM ID 4691 -- Sobibor Bte 88 Foret Gare More mute shots of the snowy forest. 01:07:57 End FILM ID 4692 -- Sobibor Foret Assembled mute high-angle shots of the lush forest at Sobibor, the train station, and railway tracks. 01:03:19 End

    Lettre Just 5 Juin 1942 (audio only)

    Film

    Claude Lanzmann recites the June 5, 1942 letter from Willy Just to Walter Rauff regarding gas vans in Chelmno for the SHOAH film team in May 1983 in Germany. FILM ID 3637 -- Lettre Just, version 1 FILM ID 3638 -- Lettre Just, version 2 FILM ID 4603 -- Lettre Just, 2 versions (more than two versions read by Lanzmann, 19 minutes)

    AJC offices - New York

    AJC offices - New York

    Film

    FILM ID 4600 -- AJC NY 162-168 Claude Lanzmann interviews an American Jewish Committee (AJC) employee at the New York City office. During the interview the employee acts as a guide, taking Lanzmann on a tour of the building housing the AJC, which is comprised of several departments. The guide explains the main functions of the departments they pass: the Public Education and Information Department, the Foreign Affairs Department, the Domestic Affairs Department and the Library. Overall, the AJC is concerned with maintaining the rights and freedoms of Jews and other minorities. Lanzmann comments that the AJC appears to be a very powerful organization. The guide takes Lanzmann to the Fundraising Department of the AJC. The AJC fosters cooperation with other non-Jewish groups for the mutual goal of freedom and security of all people. Lanzmann points out how this focus on human rights aligns with the sign on the front of the building, which reads, "Institute of Human Relations." By helping non-Jews, as well as Jews, the AJC helps all minorities improve their human rights. 03:44 At the time of the interview, the AJC was approaching its 75th anniversary. The AJC developed and expanded at a tremendous pace after the Holocaust. The guide and another woman tell Lanzmann about the AJC records, which include information on antisemitism, AJC's work before and during the creation of the state of Israel, and the resettlement of Holocaust survivors. FILM ID 4601 -- AJC NY 169-172 [Audio is difficult to hear over background noise] The guide takes Lanzmann to AJC's computer room where a monthly and a quarterly magazine are produced. The modernity and efficiency of the AJC facilitates the completion of their important work, including communication with subscribers and members. The guide tells Lanzmann that she came to the United States as a small child before the war and her family perished in Poland. 05:33 In the Wiener Oral History Library, Lanzmann is introduced to the Director, Irma Krantz. Krantz tells Lanzmann how the Oral History division strives to represent as many different aspects of American Jewish life as possible through its recordings. The guide next takes Lanzmann to the Brownstein Library and introduces him to Sima Horowitz, the Chief Librarian. Since its inception in 1939, the library is primarily concerned with contemporary American Jewish issues. A collection of contemporary antisemitic material consists of antisemitic books written in Braille and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" printed in several different languages as recently as 1975. Horowtz shows Lanzmann a book originally printed in 1936 for very young children as a propaganda piece in English by an organization called "The White Power Publications" in the United States. The book had wide circulation throughout the organization and was donated in 1976. The library also contains newspapers, periodicals, and radio addresses from the Middle East and Russia associated with contemporary antisemitism.

    Dov Schilanski (audio only)

    Film

    Dov Shilanksy (1924-2010) was born in Siauliai, Lithuania. He survived the Holocaust and moved to Israel in 1948. He fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Six-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War. He was an Israeli politician and Speaker of the Knesset from 1988 to 1992. This interview was conducted in the Knesset. FILM ID 3618 -- Schilanski Israel 74 FILM ID 3619 -- Schilanski Israel 75 FILM ID 3620 -- Schilanski Israel 76 FILM ID 3621 -- Schilanski Israel 77 FILM ID 3622 -- Schilanski Israel 78

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Film

    Lanzmann talks to German workers and peasants in the present-day Mengele family factory in Günzburg, Germany. The workers are unresponsive, saying things like, "Auschwitz was part good and part bad." Or that "it's all in the past." Most of them only admit to a vague idea of who Josef Mengele was. FILM ID 3887 -- Shoah Sequence Mengele // image + mixage Color sequence prepared by the editing team in June 1985 possibly for television distribution following the identification of Mengele's body on June 6, 1985. Opening shots of Karl Mengele street signs and farm equipment with the Mengele name. Interviews with workers bringing up Josef's name. Pull back from the tower to the town square in Günzburg. FILM ID 3631 -- Mengele Factory Workers 1 -- prise 1,2 (audio only) FILM ID 3632 -- Mengele Factory Workers 2 -- prise 1,2,3,4,5 (audio only) FILM ID 3633 -- Mengele Factory Workers 3 (audio only)

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Film

    As chief of the German Reichsbahn, Albert Ganzenmüller was responsible for the employment of deportation trains. In July 1942, he wrote a letter to Karl Wolff describing the deportation trains from Warsaw to Malkinia to Treblinka. Claude Lanzmann talks about the letter by Ganzenmueller in a short recording in French. FILM ID 4605 -- Ganzenmueller 1-6 Chemin de Fer

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Film

    FILM ID 3869 -- Camera Rolls Goldberg 176,177 No clapperboard. Audio operator speaking French and street noise to 1:34. Lanzmann and Corinna Coulmas start by asking Malka Abramson Goldberg about her business, children, and grandchildren. Goldberg then tells them that she was in the Warsaw ghetto, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Ravensbrück, and Malhof before immigrating first to Sweden and then to the city in which the interview takes place (probably Tel Aviv). At Lanzmann's prompting, Goldberg explains that she was part of the resistance, but does not remember specific dates such as when she was arrested or when she arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Malka's husband Jakob helps Goldberg with the timeline of her camp experiences and, after Lanzmann asks whether or not they know the song, Goldberg and the men sing part of the Yiddish resistance song "Undzer shtetl brent!" ("Our Town is Burning!"). After a brief break and more prompting by Lanzmann and Corinna, they sing a bit more of the song. FILM ID 3870 -- Coupe Varsovie Silent shots of street scenes in Israel (probably Tel Aviv). Goldberg and the two men in a shop.

    Israel

    Israel

    Film

    Location filming of the desert landscape, cemeteries, the city of Jerusalem, and life at the seashore in Tel Aviv, Israel for SHOAH. FILM ID 3611 -- Tel Aviv. Bor de Mer. Prieres Dizengov People milling about the seaside in Tel Aviv. Camera pans out to show more people on the beach and cars parked on the grass. Two armed soldiers walk by and smile at the camera. 01:01:38 Man holds clapper indicating camera roll 85. People fishing, children look at the camera filming them. Camera pans over beach and shore. Camera focuses in on a mother talking to her young son, then out over the sea and coast. A man sits by the sea. CUs, families. A group of adults gathers to read. Adults and children look with interest at the camera filming them. 01:14:08 The sun sets while a group of Hasidic men walk down to the seashore and read from the Torah. One man from the group notices they are being filmed, he waves for the filming to stop. Scenes of the sea. Looking out at the sea, the group of men sway as they sing. 01:20:18 A bulldozer at the beach. Night has fallen, and a group of people sit further inland. Some wave at the camera. FILM ID 4722 -- Jerusalem 1-12. Les Remparts. Le Mur. (14:45) Landscapes, including cypress trees, dirt and sand overlooking the water. Church of Mary Magdalene located on the Mt. of Olives. Houses on the hill and stone walls. Cars driving on the road and houses. A boy runs after dogs/cats, and a woman joins him. Stone walls, homes, buildings along the hillside. Dome of the Rock, old city of Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa Mosque. Wall and rocky terrain. Tower of David museum. Roads. FILM ID 4723 -- Jerusalem 13-42. Meah Shearim (24:34) Several men (Hasidic Jews) in black coats with long beards and tallit gather together on wooden benches talking, sunny day. Men walk along the street and then on the sidewalk. 01:03:25 Man pushes stroller through crowded sidewalk. Busy street scenes with pedestrians, buses and cars. “Ban Hapoalim” building, people stand around outside. 01:05:55 Narrow street, people walking around, some carrying packages. Some graffiti in Hebrew on the walls and buildings. 01:13:25:05 Marketplace. FILM ID 4724 -- Jerusalem 43-62. Rues Vides Kippur (18:03) Street scenes. Cars parking along residential side roads. 01:02:38 Pedestrians. Residential neighborhood filmed from a moving vehicle, moving into a commercial area with traffic lights and stores. Return to neighborhood streets, pedestrians walking along the street. There are banners in Hebrew hanging between the buildings and families along the sidewalk. More street scenes. FILM ID 4725 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 1-7. Ceremonie FILM ID 4726 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 8. Calme FILM ID 4727 -- Cimetierre + Kfar Iona FILM ID 4728 -- Kippur 1-30. Shabbat (33:30) Temple mount and Dome of the Rock. Western Wall. 01:02:48 A close up of praying at the Western Wall. Wooden arc, men sitting on benches and in chairs talking and praying. Tables covered with burgundy velvet covers with gold Jewish stars. Shots alternamte between the Dome of the Rock and the Western Wall. 01:12:28:06 Israeli soldier stands on the wall. Dome of the Rock is in the distance. Men pray, soldiers on the radio. 01:25:51 Large group of teens dancing, arms around shoulders, swaying in one long line. They form a circle while other people are praying. Then they circle forms into one big cluster. FILM ID 4729 -- Kippur 50-58. 65-83. (15:59) At the Western Wall, men are praying. Men stand by a wooden arc with tables and chairs. Men are dressed casually and formally. Dome of the Rock and Israeli soldier. Women praying. Soldiers. Dusk begins and night falls. Crowds at the Western Wall. FILM ID 4730 -- Kippur 59-64. 31-34. Fin Kippur 35-49. 84. Veille Kippur. (20:52) Men praying at the Western Wall, closing in on their faces devoutly praying. 01:04:34 Young men in a large circle swaying at Western Wall. Men leaving, shaking hands with one another. Older Hasidic man with long beard departing. 01:08:39 Nighttime at Dome of the Rock. Men in a circle at the wall. Switches back to daytime at Western Wall. 01:17:01 Two soldiers at the black booth before the Western Wall. Dome of the Rock and Western Wall. FILM ID 4731 -- Paysages Divers I / orangeraie, champ de coton, el arch (10:04) Highway. Pan to a field of orange trees. Small plane flying over. Field of white flowers. 01:05:30 Israeli soldier on the road. People gathered. Donkeys and carts, children. 01:08:08 Soldiers getting into a truck. FILM ID 4732 -- Paysages Divers II / orthodoxe Kfar Iona Lochamei Hage. FILM ID 4733 -- Plans Muets Journaux Petits Annonces 242, 243, 244 (24:57) Newspaper headlines/articles, CUs, silent. 01:01:43 Prag, Freitag, Den 1. Dezember 1944 “Organ des altestenrates der juden”. “Regierungsverordnung” vom 13. Oktober 1944. Advertisement for “A. Schafer” with a Jewish star on either side of the name. Title of the paper “Judische Rundschau”. Panning to other ads “Palestine & Orient Lloyd”. 01:07:36 “Aus der Rechtsprechung”. “Palestine Agricultural Settlement Association, Ltd. Jerusalem." More advertisements: “Haifa die Perle von Palastina” Savoy Hotel. “Judische Rundschau” Berlin. Article: “Selbstvertrauen trotz Sorgen” 5 March 1937. Headline “Probleme der judischen Umsiedlung” 1 December 1939. FILM ID 4734 -- Deserts / Sinai. Judee. Negev. Mitspe Ramon / Bte. 60,61,63,64 (7:08) Construction vehicles and green fields in the distance. Road through the desert. 01:03:56 Roads from inside a vehicle. Slate: “Bob 47” on the dashboard. Hills and a small town in the distance. FILM ID 4735 -- Deserts / dont il existe des retirages couleurs

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Film

    Bronislaw Falborski witnessed the deportation of Jews from Kolo to Chelmno. He talks about the speed of the gas vans. This interview takes place in Falborski’s home in Poland and was recorded during Lanzmann’s second trip to Poland. FILM ID 3809 -- Camera Rolls 1-5 CR 1;2;3 (Rue à Midevits) CU, framed painting of Mary nursing baby Jesus on the wall. Mr. Falborski was the private driver for May from the autumn of 1941 to 1942. May lived in the house of a former forest warden, named Gay, in a town near Kolo. Falborski also lived in the house of an evicted forest warden. The wardens had been evicted because they were Polish. Falborski did not know German that well when he first began working for May, but after one year they could communicate without gestures. May supervised the German forest wardens in the area. Lanzmann asks when Falborski first learned of the exterminations in Chelmno. CR 4 (Tyzem) Falborski was almost shot the first time he went to Chelmno. He had parked the car in the forest to let May out, and decided to follow May into the woods. About 100 meters along the forest path he was stopped by a Gestapo who demanded to know what Falborski was doing in the woods. The Gestapo had his gun aimed at Falborski when May came back and stopped Falborski from being shot. He moved the car back to a forest warden's house. The state employee who lived there told Falborski that Jews were being exterminated in the forest. Falborski did not discuss this with May, but with May's wife. Falborski claims he cannot say anything bad about May, as was always treated well by him. Falborski went to the forest many times, as well as the village of Chelmno. Falborski describes how the Polish citizens of Chelmno had been evicted and the castle became the designated camp for the Jews. CR5 (Tyzem) Gas vans would leave the castle at the same time empty vans from the forest would return. Typically, two people sat in the front of the grey vans. They drove the vans slowly, at a calculated speed, so that the people inside would die before the van reached the forest. Once, a forest warden named Sendjak told Farboski a van had skidded. The Jewish prisoners fell out of the back of the van, still alive, and started to crawl on the ground. One of the Gestapo drivers shot them with his revolver. They Gestapo men then made the Jews of the Sonderkommando put the bodies back in the van and took them to be dumped in the clearing. The mass graves were roughly 500 to 700 meters from the road. Though he never went near the graves, Falborski and May could smell the odor of the decaying bodies. This was the only time the two men referred to the Jews. FILM ID 3810 -- Camera Roll 6 CR6 Falborski knew what was happening in Chelmno because a young man in the Gestapo told him. The man told Falborski that Jews entering the camp were told they had to go through a disinfection process. Before they were taken away, their jewelry and gold teeth were forcibly removed. Finally, they were forced into the vans and taken to the forest. In Kolo, the city where Falborski lived, the Jews were grouped together at the synagogue and then chased by Germans to the train station which took them to Chelmno.

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Film

    Josef Oberhauser was a SS officer in Belzec. He was interviewed in a Munich beer hall and refuses to answer many of Lanzmann's questions. Oberhauser answers Lanzmann's questions regarding the beer he sells, but refuses to respond to questions concerning his days as an SS officer in Belzec. Lanzmann attempts to interview former SS officer Mr. Oberhauser in the beer hall where he works. Trying to warm Oberhauser up to an interview, Lanzmann asks Oberhauser how many liters of beer he sells a day. After asking several times, Oberhauser answers that he sells 450 liters a day. He tells Lanzmann that he has worked in the beer house for twenty years, and that the best beer comes from the tap. When Lanzmann asks if he remembers Belzec, Oberhauser becomes quiet. He does not respond when Lanzmann asks further probing questions, or when Lanzmann requests to arrange an interview at another location. FILM ID 4609 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser. Belzec / CHUTES People in town square, Max-Joseph-Platz in Munich. Restaurant-- Franziskaner Poststüberl. Inside restaurant, full of people on a regular business day. The camera crew films the beer hall staff, including Oberhauser who refuses to speak. (05:47) Photograph of SS officer Christian Wirth, the first commandant of Belzec (Oberhauser's superior), in Nazi uniform is held in front of the camera. FILM ID 4610 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser / Belzec Breme 1-9 / DOUBLES EXT, Franziskaner Poststüberl. Patrons dine. Kitchen staff.

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Film

    Minibus with equipment for hidden camera interviews, staged in the suburbs of Paris at Saint Cloud, near the LTC Studio where the final film's editing was done, in May 1983. This could have been staged in France rather late in the film's production to illustrate a sequence about the hidden camera interviews for the final film (note the closeups of the minibus and the "home" of a perpetrator -- the zoom into a specific window, for instance). FILM ID 3452 -- Ext. Camionnette / Camera Rolls 1-4-6, 14-26 Several sequences showing exteriors of the red-striped Volkswagen minibus with the equipment for transmitting Lanzmann's hidden camera interviews. The minibus arrives at a residential destination and parks. The driver exits the vehicle and enters the back using a sliding side door. The camera zooms in on several residences, homes, and apartments. 01:04:48 Collision with fast-moving lorry. FILM ID 3665 -- Camion en planque Several takes of the minibus. This reel was probably filmed in Germany to correspond to the interview with Stier, RG-60.5064

    Auschwitz

    Auschwitz

    Film

    Location filming of Auschwitz and Birkenau in winter for SHOAH. FILM ID 3451 -- Auschwitz 48D-64B / Birkenau int. camp (white label 69) -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:25 Museum sign on Auschwitz-Birkenau grounds in four languages regarding the cremating pits, mass transports, and extermination. WS sign, remains of crematorium in BG, guard-tower. WS building remains, sign regarding the destruction of the crematorium by the Sonderkommando in 1944. Pan of snow-covered camp grounds. Quick shot of Lanzmann with fur hat standing in the field. CU, reeds, barbed wire fence, building remains, pan. 01:05:13 HAS of the barracks, panning along the barbed wire fence. 01:07:32 Railway going to main entrance. 01:08:20 Quick view of Lanzmann in a coat and fur hat. Pan of snow-covered ruins, pit, ground, pan up to barbed-wire fence and building rubble. "Krematorium II" sign. More pans of the camp grounds, lake, fence, guard tower. FILM ID 3612 -- Majdanek R.1 / Auschwitz Bte. 21.22 / Chutes 13 (white label 13/14) -- 01:00:12 to 01:11:13 Large cross decorated with a wreath on a roadside. Shots of snow-covered fields in Poland from a moving vehicle. CR22 Slow pan of homes in a village in Poland in late winter (near Oswiecem?). Local Poles stand in the doorway of a building with horse-drawn carriages. More views of housing in the town. 01:05:47 LS, slow pan of grassy fields. Muddy road. CU, tall wooden pillar with a cross at the top. More housing in town, locals, dirt roads, religious statues. Church. Snow-covered field. FILM ID 4698 -- White 41.42 Birkenau Canada Pet Ferme Cendres Camp surrounded by posts. LS, Birkenau surrounded by green fields. Fog everywhere. (2:58) Large piles of coal, with train tracks running beside. (4:10) A horse drawn cart stops next to the piles of coal. (4:37) Entryway of a courtyard, train tracks. (5:00) Birkenau entrance. (5:28) Fields separated by short posts. Small guard towers. (7:12) A perimeter fence with lamps. Barbed wire runs across the top of the fence. (7:52) A horse drawn cart stops in the field, and a man works beside the horse. (8:13) The camp from outside the perimeter fence, guard tower. (8:48-10:34) Reel break - there is no image. (10:36) Perimeter fence and guard tower. Set of steps leading down into the ground, and brick walls on either side. The underground steps lead to the ruins of a large underground room and leads to a crumbling set of ruins. (14:43) Crumbling ruins in the field. (15:26) Smooth floors in the ruins of a building. (16:52) Crematorium with chimneys, ruins of the camp. (19:22) A long, underground hallway with a platform. (20:04) Camera moves along train tracks towards the entrance. (20:56) Perimeter fences. (21:06) Train tracks beside the fields surrounded by perimeter fences and guard towers. (21:24-26:52) Reel break - picture missing. (26:54) A small pond surrounded by trees. (27:34) Larger body of water with brick walls. (29:10) A bare tree in a field, beside it is a low stone wall, and countless old spoons, forks, and a bowl. FILM ID 4699 -- White 43.44 Birkenau Voies-Maquette Chutes (14:44) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. (0:53) Train tracks. (2:27) Claude stands on a road next to the train tracks and walks alongside the tracks. (5:15) Overgrown tracks. Tracks with perimeter fence fields on either side. Birkenau from a distance. (6:46) Train tracks with power lines. A train goes by. (8:13) Tower beside the train tracks. (8:50) Empty train tracks with railway cars on the side. A town is off to the left. (10:23) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. A group of people walk beside the fence on the left. (11:26) The steam of a train engine. (11:52) "Model Krematorium II” with figurines, close-ups. FILM ID 4700 -- White 45 Valises (08:00) CUs luggage: “Friedrich Neumann. 1890. CF97” “Carl Israel Hafner. Wien I. Biberstr. 14” “Ernst Morgenstern. 7688.” A pile of empty baskets. More luggage: “Marta Sa. Schlesinger, 187” “AAw490. Jng Aussenerg Richard. XVIII - Schlickstrasse 34” “S.L. Steinberg Ludwig” “1018 Tekla Placzek” “A.Demiranda. 9.11.92. Holland” “Bernh Israel Aronsohn. Hamberg. Kielortallee 22. Evak.NR.1849” “Dr.K.Fleischmann. Arzt” Pan over the suitcases.(00:02:46) Different suitcases: "Sidonie Sara. Fuchs. Wien. Yiylzŭsg.” “Klein. Peter. 942. AU 1003.” “Stefan Gross. Mahr Ostrau. 854.” “Z591. Popper Hugo. 28.12.1874.” “Hans Fried Leipnik. 1540.” “Meyer. J. 05377” “Adele Sara. Wien, II Eilienbrunng” “Helga Tichauer-Cohn. Tt.Nr.1613” Suitcase with crossed out writing: “Issac Querido. 16-9-04. Holland” and replaced in red with: “Catharina Querido - 8-12-04” Another suitcase, “Jakob Wenger Litzmannstadt.” “Olto Israel Schönhof. Gel: 25.8.70 Offenbach a/m. keñOrt: Offenbach A/m. KeñN: A.oo513” Camera pans out showing a pile of suitcases. More steady shots. (00:06:36) “Singer Leon. 1.3.84” “Berta Wachsmann” "Dr.Kurt Weiluner” “Klara Sara Goldstein” (00:07:06) CU, “Maria Karfka. Prag XIII-833” “Transport No. Berta Sara Rosenthal. Berline Chbg. Uhlandstr. 194” Pan out, and CU, “Sal. Freitag. 18.7.97. Holland. (00:07:40) End. FILM ID 4701 -- White 46 Archives. Ville. Chutes (13:41) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 41” “Auschwitz Archives” Two black and white photographs of Nazis - on the left: “Beuermann Heinrich [Oświęcim ]” and on the right: “Danilowitz Otto, SS - Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” More photos - on the left: “Brong Uvar, kz. Oświęcim.” On the right: “Hagel Jozef, SS -Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” Next: “Münk, aufseher Birkenau,” [Overseer of Birkenau.] (0.53) A black and white photo of a Nazi leading a horse. (1.05) Headshot of a man in a suit. (1.22) Crematorium. (2.11) A crematorium under construction. (2.26) Courtyard with partial gallows in the center. (2.56) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 40” “Auschwitz Archives” (3.04) Black and white photos of prisoners corralled into a line by soldiers next to a railway tracks. (3.17) Railcars with German soldiers. (3.29) Several black and white photos of men staring directly into the camera in front of train cars. One man has an armband wrapped around his sleeve. (4.10) Women and children by the railcar with star badges. (5.19) More prisoners with star badges. (6.55) Piles in front of a train. (7.09) Someone walks away from the camera carrying a large item. Wrapped items at their feet. (7.24) Bags strewn across the ground in front of a train. (7.31) People stand in front of houses, a cart pulled by two horses on the right. Germans stand in a low ditch between buildings. (7.54) Three photos of children. (8.05) Four malnourished children. (8.35) Soldiers burning bodies. (8.55) A telegram of the secret police, written on April 9, 1944 and received April 11, 1944. (9.45) City of Oswiecem, Poland - street with colorful buildings and a church steeple in the background. Local Polish people walk around. FILM ID 4702 -- White 66 Auschwitz 32-43 Gare Vieille Rampe (23:37) CR AUS 32. Railcar tracks with empty train cars. Pan to active platforms of the Oswiecim station. Clock indicates 1:23pm. Train arrives in station, drops off passengers and picks up others. Signs, “Katowice prezez Mysłowice” “Peron 3. Tor 9” “Peron 3. Tor 5” “do wyjscia” Train conductor hangs out the window and checks the time. "AUS 33" Crew member taps the boom mic with the take number. Watch tower for the railway. Man walks across the bridge. Train arrives. Lanzmann in a hat signals. He is with men in uniform. CU of incoming train. CR 34. INT, tower. Tracks. Man in the tower. (00:09:17) "AUS 36" More tracks. Zoom in to entrance to Auschwitz through the fog. CU of the tracks next to Auschwitz. "AUS 42" Stationary train carts. "AUS 43" Muddy road. Tracks. CU, the entrance to Auschwitz. (00:15:13) Back at the first active railway station, local passengers move about. Pan of the tracks. A train pulls through a station. CU, entrance to Auschwitz. Quick shots of Lanzmann. Another moving train. "AUS 38" "AUS 39" The tracks end at Auschwitz. (00:22:45) CU, carriage cars on the tracks. "AUS 47" FILM ID 4703 -- White 67 Auschwitz 15-31E / Blocs 10.11 Ch. Gaz (23:26) Path at Auschwitz with perimeter fences on either side. The path leads to a guard tower. Snow on the barbed wire fence. “Blok Smierci” plaque above the door at Block 11. Memorial for the execution wall at Block 11, with flowers hanging from it and on the ground in front of it. There is a flag flying on the opposite side of the courtyard. Closer shots of the memorial. (9:17) Dimly lit INTs, gas chamber with barred window close to the ceiling.The number “13” in blue above a doorway. The room is small. Stretcher with a hole in it is leaning against the wall. There are striped clothes laid next to the stretcher. (13:25) A room with a long table with a white table cloth. There are pieces of paper laid out on the table. (15:11) EXTs, barracks. (17:00-18:23) Reel change, there is no image. Open air grates in the courtyard. Inside them are barred windows. The room with the blue 13 on the doorway. Dimly lit INTs, 4 small crematoriums on the wall. A square chimney in the ground, surrounded by snow. (22:14) HAS, visitors to the Auschwitz memorial walk out of the gas chamber with the large chimney attached to it. FILM ID 4704 -- White 68 Auschwitz 44A-46.48 / Musee (08:37) CU of suitcases within the museum. Some names are legible: “Edith Weisz” “Paula Furth” “Minska, Hanna” “Kind Weissbrod” “Singer, Leon” “Berta Wachmann” “Dr.Kurt WieLuner”. A pile of baskets are mixed in with the suitcases. More shots of the suitcases: “ Hajek, Franz” “Ludwig Israel Baruch” “Levi” CU of a suitcase with a transport number and a faded name. (00:03:54) A large pile of shoes behind glass. "AUS 34" "AUS 36" Large piles of victims' property: crutches, prosthetic legs, and shoes. "AUS 45" Pots, bowls and dishes. Toothbrushes. Hairbrushes. Other objects.

    Pery Broad

    Pery Broad

    Film

    Pery Broad spent two years as a guard in Auschwitz Birkenau. Broad voluntarily wrote a report of his activities whilst working for the British as a translator in a POW camp after the war. The Broad Report corroborates extermination installations and the burning of corpses. This interview was filmed in 1979 with a hidden camera, known as a Paluche, which caught fire. FILM ID 3438 -- Camera Rolls 1A -- 02:00:18 to 02:12:29 Lanzmann and Broad begin the interview by discussing the recently presented television miniseries, Holocaust. Broad states that he can face the past, but cannot dominate it. FILM ID 3439 -- Camera Rolls 2A,3A,4A -- 03:00:12 to 03:26:09 Roll 2A The Holocaust would not have been possible were it not for the collaboration of several European countries. Broad expands on this by mentioning the train cars that took Jews to the camps always left the camps empty, implying that ordinary people who witnessed these events knew what was going on. Broad claims he cannot comprehend racial discrimination and anti-Semitism. 03:15:04 Roll 3A Broad refuses on principle to participate in interviews for television programs like the BBC, or for books, regarding the Holocaust. 03:19:17 Roll 4A Lanzmann and Broad discuss the report Broad wrote, specifically the atmosphere of the camp described in the report. FILM ID 3441 -- Camera Rolls 5,6,7 -- 05:00:13 to 05:25:14 Roll 5 Citizens of the town of Auschwitz knew what was occurring in the nearby camps. Lanzmann wants Broad's permission to ask specific questions and to record them with a tape recorder. Broad is visibly uncomfortable and asks that Lanzmann first ask the question without the recorder. Lanzmann asks Broad if he remembers a Jewish Kapo named Jakubowitz, in Block 11 of Auschwitz. Broad remembers he was a boxer who was responsible for taking care of the dead bodies after executions, and physically man-handled prisoners soon to be executed. He describes him as a "very big man," and "primitive." Broad claims to have seen only two or three executions in Block 11, because he worked mostly in Birkenau at the Zigeunerlager, the portion of the camp designated for Roma. Broad draws an aerial view of the camp for Lanzmann, showing the crematoria, Roma section and women's camp. It was difficult for the authorities of Auschwitz-Birkenau to identify Roma families as they went by nicknames. 05:10:01 Roll 6 Broad began working in Birkenau in 1943, after working in Auschwitz. He attempted to leave Auschwitz several times. He tried to leave for the front but was denied because his eye sight was bad. He went back to the main part of the camp and never returned to the Roma camp. 05:13:37 Roll 7 Lanzmann states that testimonies of people who worked at the camps, as opposed to prisoners, give a more complete geographical and topographical account of the layout of the camps. Broad mentions the aerial image of Auschwitz taken by Americans during the Holocaust as well as the map he drew in 1945. Both are available to the public. Broad states that the prisoners never exhibited any violence prior to their gassing as they were too emotionally and physically tormented by that point. In order to become an interpreter for the Reich Main Security Office, Broad had to work for the SS in Auschwitz. He was depressed and very ill there, claiming he lost all interest in life. He was twenty-one years old. FILM ID 3442 -- Camera Rolls 8-11 -- 06:02:01 to 06:18:38 Roll 8 Broad describes a meeting his aunt arranged with a Mr. Baumert, a member of the Nazi party paramilitary. Baumert proposed that Broad go to Stuttgart to become an SD officer. Broad refused the offer. Baumert told Broad that nobody was being killed in Auschwitz, that his friend Höss would have told him so. Broad states that Baumert was fully aware of what was going on, but did not want to admit it. During this meeting, Baumert told Broad that he had received negative reports on Broad. The reports regarded his perceived Bolshevik activities while a student and later at Auschwitz. However, nothing ever came of the negative reports, Broad thinks due to the level of respect his aunt had within the Nazi party. Broad's aunt knew Hitler through her father, who was a professor in Berlin and a painter. Lanzmann asks Broad how the two transports of Czech families from the Theresienstadt camp behaved when they were led to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. 06:11:26 Roll 9 Broad is unable to corroborate the extreme violence the SS guards placed on the Czech families before they were gassed. Broad talks about a story he heard during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. 06:14:45 Rolls 10-11 When the escapees from Auschwitz told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. Broad compares this disbelief to the behavior of the Hungarian prisoners at Auschwitz, explaining that their disbelief at their situation caused them not to react violently when let to the gas chambers. Broad believes the prisoners could have escaped easily if 2000 of them had rushed the fence. He claims there was no barbed wire on the fences and that they were not electrified. FILM ID 3437 -- Camera Rolls 1,2,1A,2A -- Rushes -- 01:00:09 to 01:31:10 Roll 1 Interiors of the minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. Two technicians monitor the video and audio transmission. The picture goes in and out. Broad speaks in English about prisoners of Auschwitz and the ability to escape (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11). You can also hear the camera crew in the van in French. 01:05:38 Roll 2 Again from inside the minibus with the technicians speaking in French. The picture goes in and out. Broad talks about a story he heard of during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. When they told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11) 01:11:13 From inside the minibus, a crew member introduces Roll 1(1A?). He says something like "trying to tune into Perry Broad, we are interested in what he has to say. We will choose what Claude is interested in. There is no image, we only have the rushes." Broad claims he only entered the crematoria at Birkenau after it was shut down. He can describe the crematoria in detail because he had a friend who worked at the building administration for the camp. Plans of the camp, including the gas chambers, were publicly available. The crematorium looked like a factory. Lanzmann and Broad discuss the layout of the different crematoria. Broad describes an instance when a Sonderkommando said to a guard "give me one bread and I'll slaughter a hundred Jews." 01:22:27 From inside the minibus, the man on the left says "Perry Broad 2" as he uses the clapper (Roll 2A?). Broad shows Lanzmann the sentence leveled against him in the aftermath of the Holocaust. He describes a witness at his trial who overheard a conversation Broad had with a woman who had just arrived at the camp. When she asked if they were going to be murdered he told her not to believe the stories the inmates told. This account proved Broad's presence at the ramp during the selection process. Lanzmann adds that the Kanada Kommando, the Jewish inmates in charge of collecting victim's belongings, said the same thing to other prisoners about to be murdered. FILM ID 3440 -- Camera Rolls 3,4 -- Camion Exterior -- 04:00:10 to 04:03:10 Exteriors of the red and white Volkswagen minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. The minibus is parked on Eugen-Langen Str. CUs, antenna. MS, apartment complex. Another shot of the exterior of the van and antenna. FILM ID 3443 -- Camera Rolls 11-13A -- Int. Camion Broad -- 07:00:13 to 07:10:56 Views of an apartment balcony from a small window inside the minibus. A man (Broad?) is on the balcony. Zoom back to see inside the back of the minibus with equipment and crew recording the hidden camera interview. Broad can seen on the two video monitors in black and white. Zoom back to the outside through the window. 07:04:44 New roll shows the technicians inside the minibus, with sound. 07:08:14 Another roll from inside the minibus, zooming out the window to the balcony, no sound. --- The following reels contain audio only. --- FILM ID 3667 -- Broad 1 -- see picture above in FV3438 (Camera Roll 1A) and FV3439 (Camera Roll 2A). FILM ID 3668 -- Broad 2 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Rolls 2A,3A) (FV3439). This audio roll begins with a some minutes of non-interview related chatter. FILM ID 3669 -- Broad 3 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Roll 4A) and FV3441 (Camera Roll 5) FILM ID 3670 -- Broad 4 -- see picture above in FV3441 (Camera Rolls 6,7) FILM ID 3671 -- Broad 5 -- see picture above in FV3442 (Camera Rolls 8-11) FILM ID 3682 -- Broad 16 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 1,1A) FILM ID 3683 -- Broad 17 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 2A) FILM ID 3672 -- Broad 6 Lanzmann asks if the reason Broad did not give names in his report was out of solidarity with the perpetrators. Broad dismisses this idea, claiming he did not care about the names of the butchers but rather the destiny of the inmates. FILM ID 3673 -- Broad 7 Broad witnessed one gassing while working at Auschwitz. He witnessed unidentified SS men wearing gas masks pour Zyklon B through the roofs of the gas chambers. He saw two or three executions in the courtyard of Block 11, which the Gestapo Grabner and his staff where responsible for. Broad says he was lucky not to have to deal with the prisoners directly. Directly killing so many people was too much even for the SS, and so the gas chambers came into existence. Killings in the courtyard were very different, they were not anonymous and they were deliberately horrific. Broad fainted once from watching an execution in Block 11. FILM ID 3674 -- Broad 8 They take a break to drink a bottle of champagne and discuss work. Lanzmann asks if Broad had any friends in the SS, to which he replies there is no such thing. He had a German friend named Karl Hueges who had to join the SS to avoid being put in a concentration camp himself. He was a Communist who according to Broad hated the SS. Yet after being imprisoned after the war in Ukraine, he became sympathetic to the Nazi regime. FILM ID 3675 -- Broad 9 As an example of what he terms "the grotesque," Broad tells a story about an Jew named Unikower who was arrested by the Soviets after he was liberated from Auschwitz. In response to a question from Lanzmann Broad says he does not remember Yossele [Josef] Rosensaft, the so-called King of Bergen-Belsen. Broad defends his actions at Auschwitz by saying that he did not tell anyone about the activities and statements of Eisenschimmel, the Kapo of the Effektenkammer ["Kanada"], and that Dunia Wasserstrom, a survivor and witness at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, did not accuse him of murder. He provides another example of a witness who said that Broad disobeyed an order to send Jews to their deaths. When Lanzmann asks him whether anyone spoke against him at the trial Broad says yes but it was proved later that they could not have known him. Lanzmann asks Broad about the Auschwitz Hefte and Broad says he read them in prison and found them quite objective. Broad confirms that there was a brothel in the main camp and states that it was staffed with German prisoners, not Jews, because of the prohibition against race mixing (Rassenschande). He says that the brothel was used by privileged prisoners, not by the SS, "what would Himmler have said?" FILM ID 3676 -- Broad 10 Broad remembers the SS Officer Johann Schwarzhuber, but not specific instances of his cruelty. Broad says that he doesn't have much to tell Lanzmann about Schwarzhuber or about Mengele. He says he remembered Mengele having a good relationship with the Roma and with the Jewish camp doctor and he found the later allegations against Mengele incomprehensible. Lanzmann asks whether Broad was at the selection ramp many times and Broad says that he was not assigned any duties at the ramp. Broad witnessed the selection process at the ramp on numerous occasions, and would even talk with the Jews to learn where they came from. The group takes a break to eat and discuss languages and French literature. FILM ID 3677 -- Broad 11 Still eating dinner, Broad discusses how he did not discover he was a Brazilian citizen until 1936-37. At the outbreak of the war at the age of 21, Broad was happily studying in Berlin. While trying to extend his stay in Germany, he was told to leave since the war was starting. As he had no money, he could not consider that option. One architect raised an argument with Broad after reading his postwar statement implicating the Germans in atrocities. Sound very muffled. Broad, Lanzmann, and Corinna speak French, English and German but the conversation is not discernable. Despite being a Brazilian citizen, Broad had to prepare to be sent to the front. His aunt arranged for Broad to sit for an exam to become a translator, after which he received an offer from the SS. FILM ID 3678 -- Broad 12 Broad began his military training in Finland and then Greece. He describes how he was an unfit soldier and a failure in Nazi eyes. Humorously, he describes his physique to have been like a spider. Deemed unsuitable for service, he was sent to work at Auschwitz, where he claims he had no idea what it was. Lanzmann asks whether Broad believes a man such as SS Officer Christian Wirth, in charge of the nationwide euthanasia program, can be believed when he claimed he had no idea what Sobibor was before he arrived there. Lanzmann seems to imply that he does not believe Broad when he claims he had no idea what Auschwitz was. Broad describes the camp overseer, Wilhelm Boger, as a primitive man who believed in the Nazi agenda and was thus convinced of his innocence for the tortures he committed. FILM ID 3679 -- Broad 13 Broad doubts that his aunt had anything to do with sending him to work at Auschwitz. Her family was very rich and her father had painted Hitler. He arrived at Auschwitz in April 1942. He describes how over a period of a couple months he learned the true nature of Auschwitz. A German Kapo told him more about the camp. He heard rumors of gassings, but none of the guards dared to discuss it. Broad smelled the stench of burning corpses, but didn't think anything of it since people died all the time from illness and were burned. FILM ID 3680 -- Broad 14 Lanzmann and Broad argue about the layout of Block 11. Broad witnessed Ruldof Mildner, head of the political department at Auschwitz, interrogate a boy who had stolen margarine. FILM ID 3681 -- Broad 15 The political department at Block 11 followed protocols. The tried prisoners were interrogated and examined by medical doctors before their executions. Everything was recorded. Before the construction of the four crematoriums, two small farmhouses served as the gassing sites. They discuss the mass graves where the bodies were later dug up by the Kommando 1005 of Vilna, in an effort to destroy evidence of the atrocities committed. Sound of running water. Some French. Nobody speaks for a period of time. They discuss the title of an article (The Tour Guide through Hell) that appeared in "Die Zeit" newspaper about Broad. Broad says that there were things that happened during the Auschwitz trial that could also be termed "grotesque." He says that some members of the Israeli secret service were at the trial but he wasn't sure why or what they meant to accomplish. Lanzmann asks why in his report, Broad does not refer to himself using the word, "Ich/I." Broad says that the numerous investigators may have convinced him to not use the German word "Ich/I" in case he described an event he himself did not witness. Lanzmann comments that often people do not use the word "Ich/I" so they may distance themselves from the reality of what happened. FILM ID 3684 -- Broad 18 Lanzmann and Broad discuss the maximum speed of Broad's new Opel. They read over the documentation about the fine that Broad received as part of the judgment against him. Lanzmann says in English that he feels like Germany hasn't changed much, that his fine could have been imposed by a Nazi. Broad continues to complain about the judgment against him and seems to be paging through a document because he wants to show Lanzmann something in particular. He continues to complain about his legal problems and Lanzmann says he is tired he must go. Broad attempts to get Lanzmann to stay for one more cigarette. Lanzmann agrees and Broad announces that he thinks this will be the last time he talks about Auschwitz. FILM ID 3685 -- Broad 19 Broad tells Lanzmann that he was afraid before the interview that he would again become depressed after recounting the events of Auschwitz. Yet, he admits that Lanzmann showed sensitivity while interviewing him. Lanzmann says he came back to interview Broad after three years and he still does not fully understand him. They end the interview for the day. FILM ID 3686 -- Broad 20 Lanzmann and Broad say their good-byes and Lanzmann departs. Lanzmann and his assistant Corinna Coulmas talk about how the camera was out of action. FILM ID 3687 -- Broad 21 Cinematographer Dominique Chapuis listens and comments in French while watching part of the interview. FILM ID 3688 -- Broad 22 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back. FILM ID 3689 -- Broad 23 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back.

    New York

    New York

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in New York City for SHOAH. FILM ID 3449 -- Camera Rolls NY 39.39A.139-142.161 La Ville -- 01:00:01 to 01:08:51 Car on Brooklyn Bridge going into Manhattan. World Trade Center (WTC) and Woolworth Building on left. Manhattan Municipal Building on right. Car on BB going towards Brooklyn. Financial District straight ahead. Major buildings from left to right Chemical Bank Building (at far left), 120 Wall Street (stepped design). The two tall buildings in BG are First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street (the tallest building in this group). 01:00:41 First, a view of Brooklyn, then the camera spins around showing the Financial District again. Statue of Liberty in distance. 01:01:01 Governors Island and Brooklyn. Yellow building is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). 01:01:15 Brooklyn Bridge coming into lower Manhattan with the Manhattan Municipal Building on the right. 01:01:22 Pace University on left, WTC between Pace University and Woolworth Building. 01:01:30 New York City Hall behind the trees. 01:01:45 FDR Drive heading north towards Brooklyn Bridge and South Street Seaport. 01:01:56 Fulton Fish Market, Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan Bridge in distance. 01:02:25 Manhattan Bridge. 01:02:43 FDR Drive going south and the Manhattan Bridge. 01:03:40 On-ramp to Brooklyn Bridge going into Brooklyn. After turn onto bridge, shots of the Manhattan Municipal Building, Murry Bergtraum High School, and New York Telephone Building on left. 01:03:56 In Lower Manhattan. St. Paul Chapel driving north. 01:04:17 World Trade Center. 01:05:22 Statue of Liberty. 01:05:52 Brooklyn Heights looking towards the Brooklyn Bridge. 01:06:25 Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan, WTC, Chase Manhattan Bank (left). 01:06:53 FDR Drive south with views of the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge. FILM ID 3450 -- New York La Ville Doubles -- 01:00:00 to 01:08:37 Statute of Liberty and views of the lower Manhattan Financial District filmed from Brooklyn Heights. 01:00:32 Red Hook in Brooklyn. Pan of ships, Statue of Liberty, Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and the Financial District. 01:01:43 Brooklyn Heights' Promenade with a jogger running towards camera. Pedestrians strolling. Camera pulls back and shows Brooklyn Bridge looking towards Midtown Manhattan, then pan from north to south. In BG, Empire State Building, residential building, New York Telephone Building, Manhattan Municipal Building, World Trade Center, 120 Wall Street (stepped design), First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street are the tall buildings in "front" of WTC. 01:02:15:09 Midtown Manhattan seen from the observation deck (86th floor) Empire State Building. Pan shot from west to east looking uptown, then camera pans down slightly and moves back from east to west. 01:02:57 Looking uptown from the World Trade Center observation deck (100th floor). Empire State Building straight ahead. Camera pans east to East River. Zoom-in of Domino's Sugar plant just past the bridge; the gas tanks in the BG were on Maspeth Ave. in Brooklyn. 01:03:33 Same as previous shot except starts with a closer shot of the Empire State Building, and zooms-in closer to Domino's. 01:04:10 Repeat of previous shot. 01:04:45 Shot from WTC of Brooklyn Bridge. Yellow building to right is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). Pan up the East River past the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge and zoom-in on the Domino's Sugar plant. 01:05:17 Repeat of previous shot, except camera pulls back and pans to the left back to Manhattan and continues west stopping on the Empire State Building. 01:06:19 Manhattan Bridge from WTC. 01:06:39 Lower East Side or Jewish Orthodox neighborhood in Brooklyn. 01:06:53 Sunrise looking south towards WTC from ESB. Pan to the east side of lower Manhattan. 01:07:30 ESB looking south-east towards the Manhattan Bridge. 01:08:02 Dawn looking south towards WTC. Similar to previous shots. Clap-board on the ESB Observation Deck. FILM ID 4718 -- NY 42-46 Mount Kisco (28:19) Religious Jew wearing a suit and a yarmulke walks down a tree-lined road in Mount Kisco. He walks towards a group of children. Man riding a bicycle. Houses with large lawns. Street sign: “Yeshiva Rd.” (4:06) The road travels up a winding path. Two men in suits move to the side to let the car pass. The car pulls up to a huge, sprawling white building. Men in suits wearing yarmulkes. (7:43) A different side of the yeshiva at Mount Kisco with many windows and several curved archways. Young men in suits and hats stand, grin and walk around. Sound. A few men look out from open windows of the white building. (11:29) Sign in Hebrew. Sound. Inside a classroom with bookcases and desks, and an ornate platform with red drapery and a crest of two lions holding tablets between them. Large plaque in Hebrew. One wall of the room is covered in small plaques. Men stand around talking. Some sitting and reading. One man is singing. Words in Hebrew underneath the tablets. (16:34) An engraving of a menorah with Hebrew around it. Sign. (18:26) The forest surrounding the neighborhood. Two young boys play outside. (21:30) A crossroads sign says “Nitra Rd” one way and “Tora Rd” the other. (22:10) A “private property, no trespassing” sign. FILM ID 4719 -- NY 117-131 Bibliotheque Bund (28:35) Sound. Library interiors, books, black and white photos propped up on one wall. Man in a red sweater reading in the center of the room. Framed photographs set out on the table. (4:37) Books on the shelves in the library, most wrapped in paper, with numbers on the spines or Hebrew writing. (6:42) Signs on the bookshelves in Hebrew. Librarian stands beside the bookshelf. He is told from off camera “don’t look don’t look.” He smiles and looks down at the book in his hand. He starts speaking to someone off camera. He explains the purpose of the archive. (9:02) CUs, photographs on the table, portraits, including “Paul Jordan. The Unfinished Portrait.” The librarian explains the photographs speaking in Yiddish and in English. He begins to pull folders full of documents out of the cabinets below the bookshelves. He shows them a first edition book, and the different editions published in many different languages. The title is “Rok w. Treblinka.” (18:21) A storage room with boxes and folders filled with documents. A woman starts speaking about atrocities in Poland in English. The librarian holds open a folder, looking inside it. He goes into another storage room and looks through folders, pulling out documents. Someone off camera gives instructions in English. The man begins explaining what is inside the folders, specifically talking about telegrams. FILM ID 4720 -- Williamsburg Bte. 206, 223, 222 (16:39) No picture until 1:26. In the Willamsburg neighborhood, two boys moving a tire on a pole on a city sidewalk. Sign in Hebrew on a building. Children in yarmulkes play across the street in a gated yard while adults watch on. A school bus pulls up and two women get out. (3:38) On the side of the bus is “United Talmudical Academy D’Satmar.” Several shops, one of which says “Kosher Bakery.” Young men in yarmulkes and suits stand around and talk. (5:38) Sound. The men speak to Lanzmann in English. (7:30) Two women sit and talk on a bench outside rows of brownstones. (8:21) People walk down city sidewalks in the Williamsburg neighborhood. (12:10) Two men stand and talk in front of a sign in Hebrew. Crossroads sign, “Lee Ave” and “Williamsburgh West St.” (13:51) “Jacobowitz Clothing Chasidic Tailor” Sound. Highway signs above cars driving passed.

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Film

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin are survivors of Vilna. They tell the story of their extraordinary escape from the Ponari camp, digging a tunnel for months, where the dogs that caught them backed away whimpering because the men smelled of death. The interview took place over two days in the forest of Ben Shemen (an Israeli forest resembling Ponari) and in Mr. Zaidel's apartment in Peta'h Tikva with the family of Zaidel. FILM ID 3782 -- Camera Rolls 2-4 -- Foret Ponari CR2 Lanzmann, Zaidel and Dugin meet in a forest in Israel which resembles the forest of Ponari, next to Vilna. Before the war the forest was a beautiful place to go on holiday. After the Holocaust, Zaidel says it no longer seems beautiful, he associates it with the martyrs of the region. There were eight mass graves in the forest. One held 24,000 bodies. Zaidel and Dugin were forced to count the bodies every day, for German records. CR3 Mr. Zaidel was born in a village called Zvilzianik, 24km from Vilna. He was not in the Vilna ghetto from the beginning. Mr. Dugin was in the ghetto from the beginning because he was born and raised in Vilna. Zaidel was born in 1925 and Dugin in 1916. Dugin remembers the poor treatment of the Jews before the ghetto was created. Germans led a pogrom there. When the Germans made the ghetto they created a system of certificates; whoever had a yellow certificate was sent to a second ghetto. Those without certificates were left in the first ghetto and eventually taken to the Ponari forest and executed. During the three days this lasted, Dugin hid with his family in a room as he did not have a certificate. Dugin describes the great fear all who lived in the ghetto experienced since they knew that every month they could be taken to be executed. There were 80,000 Jews in Vilna before the German occupation. After the first ghetto was liquidated, between 15,000 and 17,000 Jews were still alive. These Jews were put to work. CR4 Citizens of the Vilna ghetto knew that Jews were being killed in the Ponari forest. Peasants would hear gunshots, and survivors of executions in the forest would come back to the ghetto in the cover of darkness and talk about what had happened. Zaidel says while he harbored no illusions to what was going on, he always knew he would survive. Dugin had no such certitude at the time. Dugin was made to work in a group responsible for constructing roads and railroad tracks in a camp called Idnalina. When he was sent to work in Palimonacz in October, he realized that he would starve or freeze to death. He escaped and returned to the Vilna ghetto in 1942. He tried to get his parents and sisters to join him in Vilna, for the time thinking it was safe. But before they could make the trip to Vilna the definitive liquidation of the ghetto began. Dugin managed to escape, but lost all contact with his family. A resistance group was forming in the ghetto at the same time. FILM ID 3783 -- Camera Rolls 5-7-- Foret Ponari CR5 Dugin and Zaidel were not members of the resistance. They did not know each other before they were sent to work in the Ponari forest. While the ghetto was being liquidated a group of about fifty Jews from Vilna hid in a cave, called a malina, for about fifty days. Other malinas existed, Dugin also hid in one. The Germans kept two groups of Jews for labor: the Hakape which consisted of mechanics and metal workers, and the Kaïlich which consisted of tailors and other tradesmen. The Jews who could defend themselves left the ghetto early on and joined the Partisans. The Germans could not find the malinas. They only discovered them when people left to find food. These people were captured and tortured for information. The malina Dugin hid in held fifty people, of all ages, with difficulty. CR6 The Lithuanians were complicit in bringing Jews to the Vilna ghetto. Dugin did everything he could to avoid falling into the hands of either the Germans or the Lithuanians. He explains that for someone like him it was easier to escape, hide and survive. The will to survive existed in all victims, but it was more difficult to survive if someone had a family to take care of. Dugin lost contact with his parents when he fled the ghetto. When five people left the malina Dugin was hiding in, the Gestapo found them, tortured them, and then captured everyone hiding in the malina. Back in Gestapo headquarters in Vilna the able men were separated from the women, children and elderly who were taken away in trucks. Dugin says the men knew the women, children, and elderly were killed. Dugin thought he was going to be killed one morning when he was taken to the Ponari forest in the same trucks, but instead he was taken to work there cutting down trees. An initial group of forty workers was tasked with constructing two bunkers in the forest, one for the prisoners and one for the S.S. guards. When construction was completed, forty more workers were brought to help dispose of the ninety thousand dead bodies lying in mass graves in the forest. FILM ID 3784 -- Camera Rolls 7A,7,8 -- Foret Ponari CR7 Brief shots of Dugin without sound. The Obersturmführer told the prisoners working in the Ponari forest that their job was to erase the mess the Lithuanians had made. Lanzmann comments on how pitiful it was how the Germans were blaming others for the massacres they were responsible for. The Obersturmführer claimed that if they worked well, they would be permitted to go to Berlin and practice in their professions. Zaidel knew this to be a bluff, as it would be in the Nazis' interest to kill all who knew what was taking place. He and the other prisoners wondered what they could do to stay alive. In the meanwhile, the Obersturmführer made it clear no one would escape. He had them shackled, and threatened to hang the first attempted escapee from a nearby tree. There were 50-60 S.S. Nazis guarding the prisoners at the forest site, and 84 Jews. Eighty were men and 4 were women who worked in the kitchen. There were no children. Dugin came up with the idea to build a tunnel underneath the bunker. CR8 Zaidel describes the bunkers the prisoners and S.S. guards lived in. They were originally Russian-dug gas reservoirs. Out of seven, two had been lined with stones. The prisoners lived in one, and the Nazis in the other. The remaining pits contained the corpses of the Jews of Vilna who had been liquidated. When they finished building the bunkers, the Obersturmführer told the prisoners they would be disposing of the murdered bodies. Zaidel claims none of them had imagined that they would perform this work. The prisoners were shackled above their calves day and night, making it impossible to walk properly. There was a division of labor: some would open the mass graves, build pyres, transport bodies, remove gold teeth from the victims or pulverize the victims' bones. The ashes were mixed between layers of sand and dirt. 64,000 bodies were burned. FILM ID 3785-- Camera Rolls 9-11 -- Foret Ponari CR9 Each morning the groups of prisoners were given a different task. One group was responsible for building the pyres, an extensive process Dugin describes. The pyres were up to seven meters tall. The last few meters were made up of thousands of bodies, which Zaidel and Dugin would pour flammable fluids on, and then more kindling. The pyres would burn for seven or eight days. Dugin compares opening the graves to opening a tin of sardines: the bodies of the victims were tightly packed. The bodies underneath could have been there for up to eight months, and were often flattened by the pressure imposed on them by more recent bodies deposited on them. Chlorine was poured on each layer of bodies. 09:30 CR10 The bodies on top of the grave were recognizable. Some of the bodies were clothed, and one could tell from their uniform what sort of work they had performed. Dugin explains how they were forbidden from saying aloud the words "dead" and "victim." Instead, they had to refer to the murdered victims as "figurin", as figurines or rags. The prisoners made to carry the bodies were called "Figurenträger." Another workers, called the "Figurenziehen" opened the graves with the use of a large metal bar with a hook on the end. 14:26 CR11 The Germans ordered the workers to never use the words "dead" or "victim." If they did use them, the prisoners were beaten. The Germans did not give an explanation for this order. When they were first made to open the graves, the Germans had the prisoners work without the use of tools. The prisoners sobbed when they first saw the horror before them, and were thus beaten harshly by the guards and worked hard for two days without tools. The dead bodies were referred by Germans as, "Schaizdreck," meaning garbage, in an attempt to distance themselves from the reality of what they were doing: committing mass murder and hiding the evidence. Zaidel says that even after they had been rescued, no one could stand being near the prisoners for the smell of the dead and smoke clung to them. Zaidel tells of the time the Germans brought dogs with them to the forest. Zaidel smelled so strongly of death that one of the dogs ran away from him after it smelled his hand. FILM ID 3786 -- Camera Rolls 12-14 -- Foret Ponari CR12 When Zaidel and Dugin managed to escape the Ponari forest, their horrible stench saved them. They had stopped in exhaustion to rest under a tree when some Germans began to search near where they were. Even though one of the dogs smelled Zaidel, it did not give the two men away as they smelled just like all the dead victims in the area. After some time, the other prisoners became used to the smell of the corpses. They were made to take the boots off of the dead, clean them, and then wear them. Zaidel performed this work for four months, from January to April 1944. He claims that about 20 percent of the prisoners had the ability to overcome their situation, while the other 80 percent did not. At one point they opened up a smaller grave, and Dugin recognized his entire family, including his mother, three sisters and their children. He recognized them by their clothing, and even by their faces, as they were still somewhat preserved in the winter months. Another prisoner, Shalom Gol, recognized his wife and children. 13:08 CR13 Four generations of the Zaidel family sit together with Dugin in Zaidel’s apartment in Israel. Zaidel's wife, children, daughter-in-law, grand-daughter and mother-in-law are present. They introduce themselves. Dugin picks up the interview where it left off; in the forest where Dugin found his family in a mass grave. They had been hiding together in a malina when they were discovered. 21:23 CR14 The Nazis had the prisoners open the oldest graves first. Dugin discovered his family in the most recent grave, near the end of his time working in the Ponari forest. Discovering his family was a very difficult experience, he was not so numbed by what he had thus far experienced to not feel the horror of the discovery. The prisoners began forming their plan of escape one month into their time in the forest, after they realized they would not survive. They salvaged tools from the dead they burned, and also had the tools they used in their own trades. Zaidel worked as an electrician, lighting up the graves at night, and thus had screw drivers and pliers at his disposal. FILM ID 3787 -- Camera Rolls 15-18A -- Famille Ponari CR15 Seventy-nine men and 4 women were prisoners working in the Ponari forest. The youngest was a boy fifteen years old, and another was seventeen. A committee of about four people brainstormed the many escape plans. Zaidel’s daughter, Hanna, whispers into her father’s ear and Claude stops the filming to record what Hanna says. The interview goes on with Zaidel explaining that all of the prisoners were in agreement that they should escape via a tunnel under the bunker. CR16 Hanna Zaidel expresses that she would like them to explain why they chose to escape by digging a tunnel. They all understood that they had nothing to lose. It was very difficult work, digging with limited tools after a hard day of work. The foreman, Abraham Ambourg, was responsible for keeping check of the prisoners' actions and gestures and reporting then to the guards. He knew what the prisoners were up to. He too was a Jewish prisoner. 11:21 CR17 As they dug the tunnel, the prisoners had to reinforce the sandy walls with wooden beams they smuggled in. The biggest challenge was hiding the sand from the tunnel between walls and in the roof without being discovered. The tunnel ended up being 35-40 meters long, but about four meters in there was no air to light a candle. Zaidel built an electrical system to light up the tunnel. Digging the tunnel was a process: four men would enter the tunnel digging with their hands or tools salvaged from victims, until their hands bled. One of the prisoners, named Youri, was an engineer. He managed to steal a compass, which the prisoners used to dig the tunnel in the correct direction. Hanna makes a comment and Claude asks his interpreter for a translation. They did dig in the wrong direction once, and feared they would open out into one of the graves or the guard's bunker. CR18 Zaidel says that the prisoners would dig the tunnel in groups of four to six at a time. After an hour it would become too difficult to breathe, so another group would take over. Once, they were nearly discovered. The guards ordered a roll call while a group of prisoners were digging in the tunnel. However, the prisoners had made a signal using the electrical system Dugin had installed, and thus the prisoners in the tunnel were warned. Everyone was present for the roll call, a fact Zaidel claims he is still stunned by. 27:43 Clap for CR18 Zaidel explains how they believed they dug the wrong way. It took three months to dig the tunnel. Dugin was the first to break into open air. FILM ID 3788 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 -- Famille Ponari CR19 About half of the prisoners did not know about the escape plan until a few days before it happened. The prisoners who did know took care to work while the other prisoners were passed out from exhaustion. They knew they were reaching the end of their tunneling when the soil changed from sand into blacker dirt, interspersed with tree roots. With one last meter to dig there was discussion about the order they should leave. Dugin was assigned to go first as he knew the road outside and had the pliers needed to cut the fence. He wanted to leave last so that he could throw a rock into the mine field, killing all the guards, bunker and destroying the site, but as he knew the geography of the area he was assigned to go in the first group. 11:13 CR20 Only now in the interview does Itzhak Dugin tell Lanzmann that he was a prisoner along with his father and two brothers-in-law. Although his father was 55 at the time, he was very strong and thus selected to work in the Ponari forest. Both father and son had separate opportunities to escape, yet chose not to in order to stay together. The prisoners in charge of building the tunnel decided in what order everyone would exit. Each group was made up of about ten people, with one as the group leader. Those who were on the committee were first group to leave through the tunnel. The second group was comprised of the young men who intended to enlist with the partisans. Those who had worked the most on the tunnel were assigned an earlier exit group. 22:40 CR21 When everyone was informed of the escape plan they all felt joy, though they were always silent. Everyone was in agreement about escaping. Dugin cut his chains off with his pliers, and the chains of twenty men. After this, each person was responsible for cutting the chains of the person behind them. Zaidel and Lanzmann have a disagreement about the presence of a rabbi. From a previous interview with Shalom Gol, Lanzmann heard a story of a rabbi named Goschaus or Goschkaus, who performed a small religious service and elected to stay behind as he felt too old to escape. Zaidel does not remember this incident at all but claims he would if it had happened. FILM ID 3789 -- Camera Rolls Zaidel 22-24 -- Famille Ponari CR22 Once Dugin had opened the end of the tunnel, they cut the electricity. When he stuck his head out of the tunnel Dugin saw a group of German soldiers looking in the direction of their tunnel exit. Dugin claims the exit of the tunnel was so precise it was only half a meter away from where they had planned it to be. With so many people leaving from the tunnel, the prisoners were discovered and fired upon with machine guns. Dugin and his group began to crawl into the forest, but only about one hundred meters in Dugin heard soldiers and had to change his direction. He fell into an unopened grave and told his group to continue without him, but they ran into some guards and another alarm was sounded. The dry branches they walked on gave them away. 11:14 CR23 Only about fifteen Jewish prisoners managed to escape the Ponari forest, and some were wounded by gunfire and mines. Zaidel thinks not everyone made it through the tunnel. Dugin's father and brothers-in-law did not survive, only those in the first two groups managed to run away. Zaidel's daughter, Hanna, tells Lanzmann how her father did not speak about his experiences while she was growing up. She had to wrest the details from him over the years. 20:04 CR24 Hanna claims to love her father just as any other daughter would a father, his experiences haven't changed that. She claims that the attitude people have in Israel towards Holocaust survivors isn't a good one, but doesn't elaborate what that attitude is. She describes how Holocaust survivors are often tired of life, and find it very difficult to live a normal life. FILM ID 3790 -- Coupes Foret Ponari Silent shots of the forest, some scenes with Dugin and Zaidel in the distance then walking towards the camera. A man walks across the field with a briefcase. FILM ID 3791 -- Coupes Foret Ponari -- Camera Rolls unidentified, 5D,3A,7B,8B,10A,8C,7C,8A Silent shots of the field. CUs of Dugin with sunglasses. Dugin and Zaidel seated beside one another, various CUs. 6:47 CUs of Lanzmann in the forest sitting on a tree stump. FILM ID 3792 -- Coupes Famille Ponari – Camera Rolls 22A,23B,24A,24D,24B,22B,23A,24C VAR silent shots of the Zaidel family in the apartment. 

    Franz Suchomel

    Franz Suchomel

    Film

    Lanzmann interviewed Franz Suchomel, who was with the SS at Treblinka, in secret at the Hotel Post in April 1976. This was the first interview Lanzmann filmed with the newly developed hidden camera known as the Paluche, and he paid Suchomel 500 DM. In the outtakes, Suchomel provides further details about the treatment of Jews at the camp, as well as a more ambivalent memory of his experiences than is apparent in the released "SHOAH". FILM ID 3753 -- Camera Rolls 1-2 Lanzmann asks Suchomel to describe his arrival at Treblinka and Suchomel tells of his shock at finding himself with seven other Germans from Berlin in a concentration camp, whereas in Berlin, he had been told he would be going to a resettlement area, supervising tailors and shoemakers. It was the height of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, and during a tour of the camp, he saw the doors of the gas chamber being opened and people falling out "like potatoes." Suchomel and his group were crying "like old women," and Suchomel asked Eberl, the Commandant, to be sent back to Berlin, but Eberl told him he would be sent to the front with the Waffen SS, a sure death. Suchomel hid out and drank vodka to adjust to "the inferno." He says that he learned that the corpses stacked at the railroad tracks were from three daily trains carrying 5,000 people, of whom 3,000 fell out dead on arrival, many by suicide. A new commandant, Christian Wirth, was able to stop the transports so that the corpses could be buried. At this point, there were no "worker Jews," as all the Jews dragging corpses into the trenches were chased into the gas chambers in the evening or shot. FILM ID 3754 -- Camera Rolls 3-4 Wirth reorganized the Germans, and assigned Suchomel to be head of the "Gold Jews." Lanzmann asks if the Poles in the surrounding villages could smell the odor and Suchomel says everyone knew what was going on in the camp. He says that the Poles were not fond of the Jews but they were also scared. Suchomel describes "the tube" in which 100 men or women were sent to the gas chambers at a time. Some even jockeyed for position, not knowing they were going to their deaths. Many had to wait in the barracks up to three days without food and only a bucket of water because of gas chambers' lack of capacity. Suchomel confirms that the method was carbon monoxide from a truck motor, rather than Zyklon B. When Wirth came, he forced Germans and Jewish prisoners to move the piles of corpses to the trenches. Lanzmann questions the use of Germans, but Suchomel insists that they were ordered to do so. Under Wirth, a new gas chamber was built in September. FILM ID 3755 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 In the new gas chamber perhaps 200 could fit in at a time and 3,000 people could be "done" in two hours. Lanzmann says that Auschwitz could handle a lot more than that and Suchomel says Auschwitz was a factory, and that though Treblinka was primitive, it was "a well-functioning assembly line of death." Belzec was the laboratory in which Wirth tried everything out before coming to Treblinka. Suchomel describes the second phase of his time at Treblinka after Wirth came, and says the killing went much faster. Lanzmann mentions 18,000 per day, but Suchomel says that the number is too high. Suchomel explains how transports came from Malkinia, ten kilometers away. 30 to 50 train cars arrived, of which varying numbers went on to Treblinka, the rest remaining behind. At the ramp, two Jews from the Blue Detachment ordered the passengers out, supervised by ten Ukrainians and five Germans. The Red Detachment processed the clothing in the undressing room. It took two hours from arrival to death. People had to wait, naked, to enter the gas chamber, and it was very cold by Christmas. Since the women had to get their hair cut and thus wait longer, Suchomel claims that he told the barbers to go slower so they could remain inside. Suchomel describes the "tube" as camouflaged by branches. If the male prisoners resisted entering, they were whipped by Ukrainian guards. Suchomel says he does not know of women being beaten. He says he is often ashamed. Lanzmann responds that Suchomel is the reporter of these historical events. FILM ID 3756 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 chutes Suchomel says that some people got rich by fleecing the Warsaw Jews, but in later phases the people were so poor that the women didn't even have wedding rings, having given them up to Poles at Malkinia in exchange for water. Suchomel claims that if he ever reported violence among the prisoners his SS superior told him not to interfere if Jews were beating Jews. Lanzmann asks about the hospital. It was the Blue Detachment's responsibility to accompany those selected by the SS. Once there, people undressed and sat down on a dirt embankment where they were shot in the neck. They were mostly old and sick people who would have disrupted the smooth processing of the assembly line. Suchomel says he couldn't get out of the vicious cycle because he knew of two regime secrets: euthanasia in Berlin and Treblinka. Referring again to the hospital, he explains that people were fooled by the Red Cross flag flying over it. He says that those who arrived in cattle cars with one bucket among them had to be cleaned up by the Blue Detachment upon arrival. The Escort Detachment consisted of Ukrainians and Latvians; the former could be bribed, but the latter not, as they were committed Jew haters. Many passengers committed suicide or died of illness during the transport, most of the rest had gone crazy. Being part of all this, Suchomel tells Lanzmann caused him to have a nervous breakdown and to turn to alcohol. Lanzmann wants more details about the hospital and Suchomel explains that [SS man Willi] Mentz was the neck-shot specialist and people fell into a pit where there was always a fire going. FILM ID 3757 -- Camera Rolls 11-12 Lanzmann asks which was the better way to die and Suchomel says the neck shot was, because it was quicker; in the gas chamber, with one motor servicing three or four gas chambers, death could take twenty minutes. Suchomel describes his position as the German in charge of the "Gold Jews." He claims that he was harshly punished by Wirth for once allowing a young girl to keep a piece of jewelry. Lanzmann asks about the vaginal exams alleged at Suchomel's trial, but Suchomel says that never happened, as the whole process was designed to move masses of people through the system at top speed. He says that once women knew they were going to their deaths, they cut the veins of their children with razor blades, so the children would die more quickly in the gas chambers. After they gave up their valuables to Suchomel's department the women sat on benches and had their hair cut. In response to a question from Lanzmann Suchomel says he thinks he recognizes the name of Abraham Bomba. FILM ID 3758 -- Camera Rolls 13-16 After an interruption Lanzmann again asks Suchomel about Bomba. Suchomel says that the Jews were robbed of their human dignity, the SS even took the hair on their heads, and they were treated worse than cattle. Lanzmann asks if Suchomel saw the prisoners as human beings and Suchomel says that he always did, that he was often nauseous and couldn't cope, especially if German Jews came through. He tells of one woman from Berlin who cursed at him and offered herself to him sexually, hoping that insulting the honor of an SS man would force him to shoot her, sparing her the gas chamber. He claims that he talked with her and they drank a bottle of wine together before she was gassed. Suchomel explains again that the excrement in the "tube" was a result of the terror of the women who had to wait while hearing the truck motor and the screaming in the chambers. For the men, there was no waiting, as they were chased through the "tube." Under Commandant Wirth, the unloading, sorting of clothes, herding of prisoners into the chambers had to done quickly, but the removal and burial of corpses took longer. FILM ID 3759 -- Camera Rolls 17-19 After Katyn became known, in order to destroy the evidence the corpses were dug up and burned in pits with grills made from railroad iron. When no transports arrived in the winter of 1943 and there were still 500-600 "worker Jews," they were given so little to eat that typhus broke out and killed many of them; the rest no longer believed that they would be spared by the SS and told Suchomel that they were just "corpses on vacation." Suchomel prided himself on chatting with his Polish and Czech worker Jews, including women prisoners, in his workshop and letting them have concerts and meetings there. Suchomel says that the Eastern transports came in livestock cars, whereas the Germans and Czech Jews from Theresienstadt arrived in passenger cars, believing they were being resettled. The Eastern Jews were beaten, but the Western Jews were not. Suchomel claims that he spoke with Rudi Masaryk about logistics for escape. Suchomel tells of encountering an old school friend from the Sudentenland and says he offered to save him and his wife. However, the wife had already been killed and the husband chose to die as well. FILM ID 3760 -- Camera Rolls 20-22 -- 01:00:16 to 01:31:34 [This is the only reel of picture preserved as of 2015.] CR20 Lanzmann secretly films Franz Suchomel in what appears to be living room. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about his time working in Treblinka. The tube, the pathway the Jewish prisoners were forced to walk through on their way to the gas chambers, was referred to as "The Way to Heaven," "Ascension Way," and "The Last Road," by the prisoners. Suchomel only ever heard the latter two names while working in Treblinka. [No image 01:01:02 to 01:01:10] The transports of Jews from the East arrived in cattle cars, while the transports from the west arrived passenger train cars. At this point in the interview Suchomel requests asks to pause as he is experiencing heart pain. He has angina pectoris. Lanzmann asks him if the pain in brought on by emotion, which Suchomel confirms. After a short pause, the interview picks back up. Suchomel claims the Jews brought from the west were not beaten on their way to the gas chambers. Nevertheless, Jews from the west and east all ended up in the gas chambers. Stangl, Franz and Küttner ordered a façade of a train station to be constructed, complete with flowers throughout the camp, counters, train schedules and a clock. The camp was given the fictitious station name "Ober Maiden," to keep the prisoners calm. 01:10:14 CR21 Lanzmann asks if the SS guards were more afraid of a revolt from the Jews from the west or the east. Suchomel begins telling the story of the Treblinka revolt. He claims he saved the life of a Jewish prisoner twice, Rudi Masaryk, and told him where weapons were located in case Masaryk wanted to escape. Lanzmann tells Suchomel he is not asking about the revolt [recording stops from 01:12:33 to 01:12:38]. The interview continues with Suchomel telling Lanzmann about a Czech transport carrying a former schoolmate, his brother and father. Suchomel says he tried to save his friends life but after he found out his three month pregnant wife had already been gassed, he did not want to live. His brother asked Suchomel to save him, but since his face was beaten green and blue, Suchomel would not save him. When asked why he would not save a man who had been beaten, Suchomel says that is was a standard procedure and cannot further elaborate. Suchomel states that only the worker Jews who were no longer wanted were beaten. [Audio continues after filming stops] 01:20:45 CR22 Franz Küttner would beat prisoners when he felt like it. If the prisoner was not given express permission, this was a death sentence as the prisoners face was marked. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he is alright, as he appears to be in pain. Recounting his experience pains him emotionally and physically, and the interview continues after a moment. The SS guards were worried about the transport of Jews from the Bialystok ghetto. Upson arrival, the men threw bottles and small hand grenades at the guards. When they were unloaded from the train they beat up and wounded with a knife or razor blade Kapo Meier. Kapo Meier was allowed to recover and live instead of being sent to the fake camp hospital, the Lazaret. Suchomel claims he tried to make life as pleasant as possible for the Jews working in his workshops. Jews in the camp began to destroy currency that prisoners brought with them. Jews arriving from Warsaw, Tschenstau and Bialystok in the beginning carried lots of money, which Suchomel’s workshop was in charge of sorting and even gluing together when prisoners ripped it up. His Gold Jews sorted currencies, jewelry and glasses, which were all used for the war. Gold teeth were brought from Camp II, after they had been pried from the mouths of the dead. [Audio continues after filming stops] FILM ID 3761 -- Camera Rolls 23-25 Suchomel says that he once intervened on behalf of one of his Jewish workers, who was caught with money, then savagely beaten by an SS officer. Though rescued, the worker did not want to be saved and was shot. Upon questioning by Lanzmann about taking money himself, Suchomel insists that he didn't, that he knew the punishment and was too cowardly to risk that. They talk again about the black market economy around the camp. Polish farmers sent their children to the fence to sell him and his workers food. Suchomel explains that ten prostitutes were brought in for the Ukrainian guards, not for the Germans. It was too dangerous for the Germans to go into the surrounding villages, so instead, they got frequent vacations. Lanzmann asks if the prostitutes knew that this was an extermination camp and Suchomel says that everyone, including the villagers and the Polish underground army knew. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about the assertion that "the Jews went to their deaths like sheep to the slaughterhouse." FILM ID 3762 -- Camera Rolls 26-28 Suchomel replies that people don't know how demoralized the Jews were by the time they reached Treblinka. He speculates on the causes of hatred toward Jews: years of blaming them for misfortunes, greed and envy. He knows from his own experiences that most Polish and Czech Jews were poor. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he feels guilt about his role in Treblinka and Suchomel replies that he is ashamed to have been there and that he feels guilty, yet he quickly adds that his court records show that individual Jews testified in his favor. He says he couldn't stand up to the authorities because of the need to protect his family. Since he was a carrier of two state secrets he couldn't be assigned elsewhere. By chance, he also learned of a third secret, Operation Brand, wherein the Germans euthanized those victims of bombing raids in Germany who were severely injured or became mentally ill. Suchomel says he did not think about suicide, just survival for himself and his family, and that he will have to live with this burden for the rest of his life. He claims that even then he saw Hitler as the biggest mass murderer in history, but couldn't say that to anyone. FILM ID 3763 -- Camera Rolls 29-30 Suchomel claims he was called "Yom Kippur" by the Jews because he never beat any of them, except two Berlin Jews. He was also called the "Gold Boss." Lanzmann urges Suchomel to sing the Treblinka song, which the prisoners had to sing every morning and evening. Suchomel sings it twice at Lanzmann's bidding, but is concerned that if neo-Nazis heard it, they would call him "a pig." FILM ID 3764 -- Camera Rolls 31-32 Lanzmann asks what Suchomel remembers most vividly, the euthanasia period or Treblinka. Suchomel says that Treblinka will always be with him, a vicious cycle from which he couldn't free himself. Responding to Lanzmann's questions again about a revolt, Suchomel says that after the Warsaw ghetto uprising was put down, his worker Jews lost all hope of surviving because even the Jews who had worked for the Germans in the ghetto were shot. Some of the surviving ghetto Jews who were brought to Treblinka, however, infected the camp Jews and that's how the will for a revolt began. Discussing Christian Wirth, Suchomel calls him the most brutal man he knows. He was a skilled organizer and was head inspector for Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Lublin. He was a Jew-hater and everyone was afraid of him. Lanzmann pays Suchomel for the interview and asks Suchomel how he feels about being paid by a Jew. Suchomel says that the money is compensation, not a reward for the interview. "Why compensation?" Lanzmann asks and Suchomel says he will suffer for having brought all the old memories to light. Lanzmann wants another interview and gives his word of honor that he will not "betray anything." Suchomel gives his word of honor that they will meet again, but not soon. --- The following reels contain only audio. --- FILM ID 3485 -- Audio Reel #1-1-2 FILM ID 3486 -- Audio Reel #3-4 FILM ID 3487 -- Audio Reel #5-6-7-8 FILM ID 3488 -- Audio Reel #9-10-11 FILM ID 3489 -- Audio Reel #12-13 FILM ID 3490-- Audio Reel #13-14-14-15-16 FILM ID 3491-- Audio Reel #17-18-18 FILM ID 3492-- Audio Reel #19-20 FILM ID 3493-- Audio Reel #21-22 FILM ID 3494-- Audio Reel #23-24-25 FILM ID 3495 -- Audio Reel #26-27 FILM ID 3496-- Audio Reel #28-29-30 FILM ID 3497-- Audio Reel #31-32

    Raul Hilberg

    Raul Hilberg

    Film

    Raul Hilberg is the author of the seminal book, "The Destruction of the European Jews." In this interview with Claude Lanzmann for SHOAH, Hilberg discusses several aspects of his research, including the culpability of the German railways in the deportation process of European Jews, as well as the significant roles Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner played in the genocide of the European Jews. Hilberg also addresses the general bureaucratic processes at work in the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. Hilberg is filmed in his home in Burlington, Vermont and on campus at the University of Vermont, probably in late November 1978. FILM ID 3768 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 CR1 Hilberg discusses the various means by which the genocide of the European Jews was enacted. Hilberg's research focuses on the railroad system (Reichsbahn), as transportation was a critical element in the successful implementation of the Final Solution. Hilberg explains that a clearer understanding of the railroads, which were generally ignored until he began his research, further reveals the extent to which Nazi Germany acted as a totalitarian society. Hilberg states that the Reichsbahn operated with the same "effectiveness and relentlessness" of other bureaucratic agencies and institutions. Like other agencies, the Reichsbahn approached the Jewish Problem with technical solutions. CR2 Hilberg discusses the banality of the operation and decision-making of the Reichsbahn, the German railway system. The Reichsbahn would transport any cargo--supplies, raw goods, even people--for compensation. The Official Travel Bureau handled the billing details for the regular travel of citizens, as well as the mass deportation of Jews. The Reichsbahn acknowledged no difference between the mass deportations of Jews and the regular trains, as long as appropriate payment was made. Hilberg discusses the administrative problems and compromises made between the Army and the Reichsbahn regarding the funding of the mass deportations. CR3 Hilberg discusses the banal operation and scheduling of trains within the Reichsbahn. He provides reasons for the surprising lack of priority-scheduling for the deportation trains. Hilberg describes the administrative difficulties of trying to schedule the Sonderzug, the "special trains," that acted as deportation trains between the regularly scheduled trains. FILM ID 3769 -- Camera Rolls 4-6 CR4 Hilberg discusses the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug by examining a document from the Generalbetreibsleitung Ost (General Business Line) for the Reichsbahn, dated January 16, 1943. Hilberg discusses the bureaucracy of the Reichsbahn, as he points out how the administrator for the Personenwagen (the regular trains) also approved the scheduling of the Sonderzug. Several officials from the Generalbetreibsleitung would coordinate the regional schedules and produce documents like the one Hilberg shares with Lanzmann. CR5 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. The Fahrplananordnung, dated September 15, 1942, documents the times each train arrived and left each station, as well as when the trains were emptied. Hilberg emphasizes the bureaucratic nature of the Reichsbahn, despite its involvement in the mass genocide of the European Jews, by how the document is not "classified." The transparency of the Fahrplananordnung reveals how all levels of German economy were participating willingly in the Final Solution. CR6 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. Hilberg analyzes the specifics of the Fahrplananordnung No. 587, such as how many train cars the transport carried, what time the train arrived, and then when the train had to be ready for another transport. Hilberg describes how documents like the Fahrplananordnung No. 587 are significant to his research because they are the only remaining artifacts that connect him to the bureaucrats who organized the deportations. These documents are the physical proof of how mundane, yet efficient, procedures played critical roles in the destruction of the European Jews. Picture is MISSING sound for part of CR6 - listen to Audio FV3458. FILM ID 3770 -- Camera Rolls 7,8 Silent CUs, German documents including the Fahrplananordnung and Hilberg’s book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” FILM ID 3771 -- Camera Rolls 9-11 CR9 Hilberg describes the length of the train journey for Jews, particularly the Greek Jews to Auschwitz. He emphasizes the significance of the railroads and ordinary men in the Nazi machinery of destruction. Hilberg points out that the railroad resumed operations very quickly in the post-war period and several key men were able to pursue their careers. Sound cuts out and ends abruptly with Hilberg mid-sentence. CR10 Hilberg describes the lack of prosecution of railroad officials following the war. As an institution that played a critical role in making the Final Solution feasible, the Reichsbahn's reputation remained untarnished for many years after the war. Hilberg believes that the conversations about culpability must be explored because it is only with a clear understanding of the role the Reichsbahn played that we can fully grasp the totalitarian and mobilized nation that was Nazi Germany. Hilberg begins to address the prerequisites that needed to exist for the Final Solution to have been made possible in Europe. CR11 Hilberg explains how it is the nature of bureaucratic institutions to implement the ideologies and actions from history in their own modern crusades. In the case of Nazi Germany, the Final Solution was the only unprecedented element at play. Hilberg says that the Final Solution was the inevitable step after the incidents of mandatory conversion and Jewish expulsion within history did not solve the Jewish Problem. Hilberg identifies how the invention to totally annihilate European Jews was problematic for the Regime because was that there was no historical precedence from which to learn. Nazi Germany began to carry out the Final Solution with only a general direction in mind. While many people in retrospect understand the efficiency of Auschwitz to be indicative of the whole system of Jewish genocide from the onset, Hilberg points out that this was not the case. The Final Solution eventually became well-defined and highly-efficient after the chaotic and disastrous first steps had been made. FILM ID 3772 -- Camera Rolls 12-15 CR12,13 Hilberg names specific examples of how the Nazi decrees of the 1930s were reiterations of similar anti-Jewish legislation from history. Hilberg explains that beyond the synods and laws enacted against Jews throughout history, the racist themes from Nazi propaganda were also present in historical church literature. Hilberg discusses the sequential process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. The confiscation of Jewish property began with the removal of all Jews from civil service positions in 1933. This was followed by Aryanization laws, which seized Jewish enterprises and large businesses. Hilberg notes how ironically many Germans were reluctant to change the names of the former Jewish businesses in fear of tarnishing their economic success with new labels. CR14 Hilberg discusses the process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. Nazi Germany imposed strict wage regulations and taxes, as well as the seizure of large properties and retirement pensions. Personal possessions and apartments were confiscated and redistributed to German families affected by the war, as Jews were relocated in ghettos. Hilberg partially attributes the impetus for the first deportations to the significant apartment shortage in Germany. Hilberg describes the last sequence of confiscating Jewish property, as possessions were seized during roundups and finally removed after they were gassed. CR15 Hilberg discusses the inefficiencies of the Final Solution, particularly regarding ghettoization. The use of Jews as free labor within the ghettos caused many Jews to wrongfully believe that they would not be killed so long as they worked. Hilberg emphasizes that the ultimate ideology of Nazi Germany, however, held that "a Jew is a Jew." Nothing would save the Jews, not even the economic gain that their free labor provided for the regime. FILM ID 3773 -- Camera Rolls 16-18 CR16 Hilberg explains the time of uncertainty leading up to the implementation of the Final Solution. He explains that while the plan was not clear and the goal not fully articulated, the general direction was inevitable as early as 1933. A period of hesitation between the second half of 1940-1941 and the unmanaged destruction of Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 prompted the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942. Hilberg explains that all participants understood the gravity of the Final Solution conference, as it was the end of the period of uncertainty. CR17 Hilberg explains that Operation Barbarossa, which had been in the works as early as July 1940, marked the point of focus of the Final Solution. Hilberg describes how at this point in time, orders were more defined on the Eastern Front. Yet, there was still no clear idea of what to do with the Jewish population in Europe. Hilberg discusses the use of Fuhrerbehfel and the power of inferred directives. CR18 Hilberg discusses the initial stages of invention as Nazi Germany began to plan the Final Solution. He describes a letter Rolf Heinz Hoppner sent to Adolf Eichmann on July 16, 1941 in which he proposes mass execution to solve the problems within the ghetto system. Hilberg suggests that Nazi officials were increasingly aware of the focused direction in which the Final Solution was headed by 1941. However, the Reich's first solution to send the ghetto Jews out East where the Einsatzgruppen (the task forces responsible for mass executions) were already operating quickly needed to be amended. By the end of 1941, the Einsatzgruppen began to utilize gas vans for the extermination of women and children. FILM ID 3774 -- Camera Roll 19,20,26,21,22 CR19 Hilberg describes the chaotic state of Poland by the end of 1940 and into 1941, as the Reich continued to deport Jews to the Eastern Front. Hilberg describes how the East was a vague concept for even high ranking Nazi officials, and the constant transports to the Eastern Front forced Reich officials to begin working on concrete solutions to the Jewish Problem. In December 1941, the first deportation of the Łódź Jews was sent to the extermination camp in Chelmno. CR20 Hilberg describes the Einsatzgruppen, the special operation force that was responsible for mass killings in the East. Hilberg describes the Seelisch Belastung, or psychological distress, that the Einsatzgruppen experienced, as well as the gas vans at Chelmno. The lack of secrecy of the Einsatzgruppen's operations, as well as the effects the perpetrators experienced following the pogroms, contributed to the Nazi Regime's push for secrecy. Camp enclosures and gas chambers were constructed to hide the reality of the Final Solution from the civilians and the victims. CR26 “2 perfo 404” Hilberg continues to discuss why the Germans didn’t want the information about the killings to be known. CR21 Lanzmann introduces the concept of secrecy and Hilberg responds that the secrecy of the Final Solution relied upon how many people knew about the camps (“a quantitative issue”) and more importantly how many people believed and openly talked about what was happening in the camps. The Nazi regime cultivated a language of euphemisms, keeping those who knew the reality of the situation from saying anything condemning or giving victims an explanation. CR22 Hilberg continues to talk about secrecy and the attempt to reduce anxiety or reinforce hope among the Jewish community about their fate. They talk about the amount of information in contrast to the amount of silence. FILM ID 3775 -- Camera Rolls 27-29 CR27 Lanzmann briefly explains that Czerniakow was the Jewish Chairman (Judenrat) for the Warsaw ghetto, and that no other diary like Czerniakow’s has been discovered. Hilberg calls the diary the most unique and important document from the Jewish perspective about the Holocaust. Hilberg says that Czerniakow recorded every day over a three-year period in his diary, in a very honest and matter-of-fact style, up until the day he took his life on July 23, 1942. It covers all subjects relevant to life in the ghetto including “food, space, labor, hostages, children, shootings, violence, deportations, ghettoization.” Hilberg says the diary transcends time, acting as a “window” into the Jewish community. Lanzmann says Czerniakow never had any illusions, to which Hilberg responds that Czerniakow never had the illusion of himself being a great man. CR28 Lanzmann mentions that Czerniakow was different, because he commits suicide instead of doing the terrible things that the three other chairmen did. Czerniakow had a bottle of cyanide pills in his drawer. In his diary, he was always talking about the end, knowing even in the first week that the Germans would soon come. He knew about the ghetto wall being built and was not surprised by the events that unfolded. Lanzmann asks why Czerniakow took the job, and why did he keep it. Hilberg says he took it when the existing chairman of the Jewish community fled, and he felt a sense of responsibility. Up until that point, at 59 years old, Czerniakow was not a majorly successful or prominent figure in the Polish Jewish community. His life goals were to be loyal and steadfast. Czerniakow says in his diary that he suffers because of his job, but he does it because he has to, “as a matter of duty”. Hilberg highlights two parts of the diary: 1) a woman in Warsaw who reburied her love, representing the highest virtue and 2) a conversation in the Jewish council about mentors. CR29 The camera momentarily focuses on a book in front of Hilberg that says “Documents of Destruction” before panning right and zooming out on Hilberg. Hilberg continues to tell the story of the boy who was shot. To Czerniakow this boy was a representation of a mentor, of loyalty. Hilberg discusses how Czerniakow’s diary reveals that he despised all emigrants. He believed that they were not helping the Jewish community by being on the outside, even if they said they were leaving with those intentions. Czerniakow thought it was better to stay, even if it meant collaborating with the Germans. Hilberg then highlights the paradoxical dilemma of those members of the Jewish council. Lanzmann focuses on this idea of collaboration, asking Hilberg what he thinks about the people who call the Jewish councilmen collaborators. Hilberg says that one really needs to put themselves in the perspective of the Jews at that time. Camera zooms out. Hilberg says that this concept of collaboration may not really have existed at the time, because there was not a single Jewish person who would have wanted to aid the German cause. When Germans put the Jewish people in these positions of power, they weren’t choosing them, they were just appointing the men who were “on hand”. At least they were from within the Jewish community, rather than Germans from the outside. CU of Hilberg as he says that this was the real disaster, because this way they managed to retain the trust and allegiance of the Jewish people. They discuss Jewish traitors. Hilberg says that the Jews did not ever mean to help the Germans, and when it happened, they were actually making those extreme concessions in order to help the Jews. If they could not do that, they would commit suicide as Czerniakow did. Zooms out. Hilberg mentions how briefly he talked about Jews aiding in their own downfall. Hilberg says that he really elaborated on the story since then and tries to relay it in a more consoling way. Lanzmann suggests the term “human”. FILM ID 3776 -- Camera Rolls 30-32 CR30 Hilberg discusses the morale-building devices Adam Czerniakow organized in the Warsaw Ghetto. Hilberg believes that the festivals reflected Czerniakow's desire to display hope and the continuity of life despite the inevitability of death facing the people of the Warsaw Ghetto. CR31 Hilberg describes Adam Czerniakow's appeals to the deportation notices scheduled for July 22, 1942. Czerniakow fought for the survival of orphans above all others as he petitioned to the Germans. CR32 Hilberg discusses the "mute heroism" of the Jewish community. Hilberg rationalizes Jewish passivity to the deportations. Hilberg describes how their rationalization was a mistake, as most people did not recognize that the deportations were indicative of the solution to wipe out their entire population. FILM ID 3777 -- Camera Rolls 33,43,44 CR33 Hilberg discusses the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which took place between April 19 and May 16, 1943. He describes how the Warsaw Jews' violent resistance to Nazi Germany was an indication that they understood the fate of the Jewish race in Europe. Hilberg notes how the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was a unique and significant moment because it was unlike the classic appeals and concessions Jewish leaders made to their persecutors throughout history. CR43 Hilberg discusses the ways in which various Jewish Councils were engaged in hope and how they appealed to Germans in order to save the Jewish population. Hilberg describes how the Jewish Councils often complied with the deportation lists because many of them believed that sacrificing some Jews would ensure the survival of the general population. Hilberg describes this as a "formula for disaster," as it did not appease the Nazi regime, nor did it save more lives. CR44 Hilberg discusses the deportation situation in Hungary and the role Rudolf Kasztner (a leader of the Rescue Committee) played in the destruction of the Hungarian Jews. Hilberg notes how Kasztner had an unusual-albeit correct-understanding of the Final Solution. Unlike Adam Czerniakow and other Jewish council men who wrote and approved deportation lists, Kasztner composed a list of names of Hungarian Jews to save. The rest of the Hungarian Jews were deported to camps. FILM ID 3778 -- Camera Rolls 35,36,37,38,39 CR35 Silent shots of the University of Vermont campus in Burlington. Hilberg exits a building and walks along the sidewalk. CR36 More shots of campus and Hilberg. CR37 Similar shots, pan of campus, American flag, automobile traffic. CR38 UVM campus and suburban homes. CR39 Brief INTs of HIlberg’s home with Hilberg and Lanzmann seated during the interview. FILM ID 3779 -- Camera Rolls 45-49 CR45 Hilberg explains why he gives credit to Jewish leaders like Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner, who were put in the difficult position of approving deportations and compromising with Nazi Germany. Hilberg credits the men with the ability to see the reality of the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem over the illusion they would have preferred to be true. CR46,47 Hilberg describes the Nazi regime's bureaucratic process of eliminating Jewish autonomy in Europe. He notes the Nazi regime's total seizure of power over Jewish life, as the Reichsvertretugg, the organization that represented all German Jews regardless of political, religious, or social differences, was subsumed by the Interior Ministry in 1939. The organization would eventually aid in the deportation of German Jews. Hilberg proceeds to explain the bizarre nature of the all-encompassing, bureaucratic system. Hilberg explains how mundane procedures were necessary in order to implement the Final Solution. This meant that solutions to transportation, billing, and housing, among other things needed to be solved as the system continued to work. Hilberg describes how everyone participated in helping solve these administr