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Shmuel Tamir

Film | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.166 | RG Number: RG-60.5040 | Film ID: 3396, 3397, 3398, 3399

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    Shmuel Tamir
    Transcript
    film slating)
    Mr. Minister, I would like to explain to you something.
    One of the main characters of this film,
    one of the main protagonist, in spite of the fact that I never
    met him.
    And that he's dad is Rabbi Weissmandel.
    And I could explain to you why, but I know that you met him,
    I would like to know in which circumstances, in which purpose
    and what was your impression of the man?
    We came across, during the trial of the document,
    most appalling, heart tearing.
    The outcry from the depth of death to the free world,
    ending with the accusation, you are madmen, you are murderers.
    You view it, you are silent, you do nothing
    when we are being led to death by hundreds of thousands,
    by millions.
    And I didn't know who wrote it, because when it was first
    presented by me to the court, I knew it as a letter written
    by an anonymous.
    Anonymous.
    I believe I received the document from Joel Brand,
    from his archive.
    Later during one of the testimonies
    we found out that the writer was Rabbi Micheal Dov Weissmandel.
    And one couldn't but be deeply impressed by the personality,
    by the sincerity, by the most unique power of expression,
    by the political wisdom and leadership.
    And I started to inquire, where is the man?
    I was told that he was one of the escapees from the death
    trains, he has jumped from a death train,
    while his family did not manage to escape.
    His wife and a good number of children.
    I was further told that for a long while
    he stayed in Switzerland, and later he moved to Mount Kisco,
    in New York.
    New York State.
    Where led a yeshiva with a good number of rabbinical students.
    He was described to me as a man who was crying for years, day
    and night.
    Never being in a position to recover himself
    from the general tragedy and personal tragedy.
    And I've decided to try and meet him and get information
    from him.
    And I did it in January 1956.
    If you are interested in the facts I can continue.
    I am interested.
    This means that you went to America?
    I went to America--
    To Mount Kisco?
    To Mount Kisco.
    And I asked, and I needed a lot of intervention and influence
    of people to meet him.
    And he met people only at night, and I was brought to him
    in a very chilly night, in the midst of January, a snow night,
    2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.
    So late?
    Yes.
    And when I came into the room he knew the purpose,
    he knew of the trial, the Kasztner trial.
    He knew my role, he knew I was searching for the facts,
    but he was very much against the whole Zionist process.
    And in principle he wouldn't cooperate
    with anything Zionist.
    And it was very astonishing at the beginning
    to enter the room, see the man, a very impressive man
    deep in sadness and thoughts.
    And I came and I introduced myself and he says, welcome.
    I wasn't offered a seat because I came from over there,
    from the wrong place--
    From Zion.
    --From the wrong people.
    Not from the wrong place, but from the wrong people, not
    people, but regime.
    I wasn't offered a cup of tea, and I was sick then,
    and my throat was in poor condition.
    And he started to ask me very simple questions.
    What do I want?
    And I said I want material, documents,
    facts for the continuation of the truth revealing trial.
    And he said, I will not help a Zionist court.
    I shall not cooperate with the Zionist court,
    with anything Zionist.
    I told him this is the only court which found the truth.
    He stuck to his attitude.
    The trial was already finished?
    It was, No, a good part of it was over, the 56--
    actually the judgment was already there,
    but other trials, civil cases developed, and their appeal
    was still pending.
    Yes.
    And Kasztner was alive?
    And Kasztner in '56 January, Kasztner was alive.
    Eventually after a few questions and answers
    I was offered a seat, and the conversation
    started to develop.
    And I regained my voice and I started to be aggressive.
    I said, if you are really interested in the facts,
    we are all blood and flesh and you are not too young,
    this is the last opportunity to expose and reveal
    the facts through any tribunal, and you
    have to do this service to the truth and to the Jewish people.
    Apparently he was studying me, trying
    to find out what are my real motives before he'll talk.
    And he started to open up, and after half an hour he said,
    would you have some tea?
    And still later I was offered even fish.
    But the serious thing was that I talked more than him
    in the beginning, until he said, you know something,
    I'll ask you a question.
    And he started to talk and the question was very long,
    and he started to tell me facts.
    And after 30 minutes of facts revealing a story,
    he said, and now the question therefore
    is, which was apparently a way to justify his cooperation
    with the Zionist court, by not just telling me facts,
    but ending up with a question.
    I say he's cooperating because in the beginning
    he said I said, I came to ask you
    to come to Jerusalem to testify, and this he refused totally.
    But then you started to give me facts, and giving me facts
    was also cooperation for him.
    In the middle of his question I said,
    may I take notes from your question?
    He said, later.
    And then he allowed me to take a pencil and paper
    and I start writing.
    And we sat for, I think close to the morning hours,
    and I took notes.
    And after two hours I think he said, I'll show you something.
    And he started to bring about, not this single letter outcry--
    We lost reel reel.
    (film slating)
    I will tell you when you go, but don't look at the camera,
    look at the book.
    OK.
    So not only the single outcry, extremely strong one,
    but additional ones.
    More and more of them.
    Letters, dispatches, messages which
    he sent from the underground to the free world.
    And--
    Does he send them in Istanbul, in Switzerland?
    It was meant to arrived in England and the United States.
    And together they combined facts and atmosphere.
    and these where a original, original documents
    from the time of the actual slaughter,
    and as far as testimony is concerned,
    it was extremely important for me.
    Eventually, years later, it was published
    in a book, Min HaMeitzer.
    A book which he didn't manage to edit properly,
    and he was worried that he won't have time to do so.
    Anyway, he showed me the letters,
    and I asked him to give them to me so that I can produce them
    as documents in court.
    He refused, he said you won't get it from me,
    I want to cooperate with a Zionist court.
    Maybe you'll get it some day, someway,
    I shall not give it to you.
    And this was bringing us to the morning hours,
    I gather the information that they did,
    he has developed his philosophy, how it all came about,
    who were the responsible factors,
    and he has agreed to see me again in his office
    somewhere else, not in the Yeshiva and the apartment.
    And we met a few days later.
    In Williamsburg?
    I guess so.
    And then it wasn't altogether another talk.
    He controlled the English language in a beautiful way,
    he knew a lot on issues and matters,
    and fields which had nothing to do with rabbinical life,
    on modern life, on modern science or modern culture.
    He knew a lot about Israel, he challenged the Zionist thinking
    and philosophy as compared to the religious--
    to the totally faithful religious one,
    as he understood it.
    And I still remember how he said,
    the secular culture is bringing the world
    to emptiness and to an eventual annihilation.
    The more I heard the men the more
    I developed an admiration for him,
    although we were from very different worlds.
    And my respect for him, which was attached originally
    to that single document, became much wider and deeper.
    We had additional few contacts, not only during
    that visit to America.
    An interesting episode which had to do with this visit
    was that three hours before I left the United States,
    after a combination of coincidence
    I was handed over copies of all the documents, which
    I have seen in his home, by another Rabbi.
    Which on the face of it could have nothing
    to do with Rabbi Weissmandel.
    Still I believe till this the very day,
    that he found a way to give me the documents
    and to allow himself, in one way or another of justification,
    to give it to me in trust, because he apparently decided
    that my motives were pure.
    And I had the documents, I still have them.
    Eventually I saw them in this book.
    I couldn't forget the outcry which
    was sent to the free world in the very beginning
    of the dispatch of Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz.
    It was written on May 15, 1944.
    The cover was in a cave near Lublin, it wasn't there,
    it was from somewhere in the heart of Slovakia.
    Slovakia.
    Yes.
    And I won't read it to you in all,
    but he describes very meticulously,
    almost in a scientific way, how every day
    12,000 Jews are being put into the trains, led to Auschwitz,
    cheated brought in to the gas chambers, put to death
    and eventually burned.
    And then he continues with his demands and his accusations.
    And you our brothers in Palestine,
    in all the countries of freedom.
    And you ministers of all kingdom,
    how do you keep silent in the face of this great murder?
    Silent while thousands and thousands,
    reaching now to six million Jews were murdered,
    and silent now while tens of thousands
    are being murdered and waiting to be murdered.
    Their destroyed hearts cry to you for help
    as they bewail your cruelty, brutal you are,
    and murderers too you are, because of the cold bloodedness
    of silence in which you watch.
    Because you sit with folded arms and you do nothing,
    though you could stop or delay the murder of Jews
    at this very hour.
    In the name of the blood of thousands of thousands
    who have been murdered we beg, we
    plead, we cry out and demand that you take action,
    that you do deeds now at once.
    That the minister of kingdoms and all the lands
    raise loud and piercing outcry, and that
    must enter the ears of the world,
    the ears of the German people, the ears
    of the Hungarian people, let them cry out a warning
    to the German murderers.
    Let them proclaim that they know all
    that has been done in the past, and that
    which is still being done.
    And then he goes on and he describes Auschwitz,
    and he demands the bombing of Auschwitz,
    and the bombing of the trains leading to Auschwitz,
    on the way.
    And he winds up.
    Drop all other business to get this done.
    Remember that one day of your idleness kills 12,000 souls.
    You, our brothers, sons of Israel are you insane?
    Don't you know the hell around us?
    For whom are you saving your money?
    How is it that all our pleadings affect
    you less than the whimperings of a beggar standing
    in your doorway?
    Murderers, madman.
    Who is that gives charity?
    You who toss a few pennies from your safe homes
    or we who give our blood in the depth of hell?
    There is only one thing that may be said in your exoneration,
    that you do not know the truth, this is possible,
    the villain does his job so shrewdly that only a few
    guess the truth.
    We have told you the truth several times,
    is it possible that you believe our murderers
    more than you believe us?
    May God open your eyes and give your heart
    to rescue in these last hours of remainder.
    Most important, he repeats, is that
    which I write about the bombing of Auschwitz crematoria,
    and the bridges leading to them.
    Such bombing can vitally delay the evil work
    of our slaughterers, and God who keeps
    alive to last remnants of Israel will show
    his mercy, for which I pray.
    I pray as I write out of the sea of tears
    of the people of Israel, we wait for God's help.
    One from the market who witnesses
    the woes of his people.
    I had a telephone call with Rabbi Weissmandel,
    on another visit.
    And he gave me directly a few tips
    as to how to go about the trial, and one day I
    heard that he passed away.
    And I recall the picture--
    (film slating)
    And one day I heard that he passed away, heart failure.
    And I recalled that midst of the January night,
    the snow, that dozens, perhaps hundreds
    of students pale, Meagre, praying and studying
    in the middle of the night.
    And he's seated among his admirers,
    thinking, mourning with a lot of strength, spiritual strength,
    still prevailing.
    But with all this sadness and despair in his expression.
    Did he talk with you or did you talk with him about Kasztner,
    specifically?
    Yes.
    And he had his opinion.
    And I would like to know what did
    you think, not only of Kasztner but of the achievements
    of Kasztner, if he said it.
    He was critical of Kasztner.
    Although Rabbi Weissmandel and a few people
    were led to the Swiss border in an operation
    in which Kasztner was involved--
    I know, that's the moment the Russians entered Slovakia.
    That's right.
    And he was led to the Swiss border
    with Hermann Krumey, the number two man after Eichmann.
    Yes.
    I knew why the cooperation was organized
    by Krumey and Kasztner, It was an attempt
    to save Krumey, and make him cross the border.
    And Rabbi Weissmandel, and the few Jews with him
    were the pretext.
    They were 23 I think.
    I think so.
    And I've interrogated Kasztner a lot about this operation.
    And if you allow me I'll come to it a bit later.
    But still coming back to Rabbi Weissmandel,
    he was critical of Kasztner.
    But he viewed the Kasztner operation very much differently
    from mine.
    Yes, this is the reason why I ask you.
    I thought that what happened to Kasztner
    was basically psychological, I thought
    that the man who started as a young, active, dynamic,
    Zionist, socialist with good intentions
    under the German Nazi pressure, gradually
    developed a fantastic egomaniac attitude.
    And gradually was overtaken by the so-called power
    vested in him, until he forgot where he belonged.
    And I suggested to the court that his soul
    was burned in Auschwitz, until he became a fully fledged
    collaborator with the Nazis.
    He was a victim, the most dangerous victim.
    I see it's a beautiful formula, the dangerous victim.
    But rabbi Weissmandel told me, you
    are involved in too much psychology, look for the money.
    And he repeated it, be much more down to earth,
    look for the money.
    And I didn't agree with him because even in the district
    court, although one of the acquisition against Kasztner
    had to do with money, Becher himself, money involved,
    the court didn't find enough proof or any proof
    to justify this allegation and dismissed it.
    While the court said that he did collaborate,
    the explanation of the courts were
    similar to those which I've presented during the trial.
    And Rabbi Weissmandel, even in the last telephone call said,
    look for the money.
    There was a long, a very involved story of money,
    which had to do with Karl Becher,
    And I have no doubt that Becher looted the Jews
    and started his richness and he is
    the most wealthy multimillionaire
    today in West Germany--
    I know.
    --from Jewish property.
    But I have no facts to state the Kasztner personally made
    any money out of it.
    I have no facts at all, and I wouldn't say.
    But I don't think so, personally.
    But this was the attitude of Weissmandel,
    he uttered it in a general way, and he repeated it.
    You're too involve in psychological explanation--
    No, I have asked you this question about,
    what did Weissmandel think actually of Kasztner?
    Because I would like to know if he talked really about you
    or what did he say about Kasztner, and what you
    yourself personally think today?
    Not about Kasztner, we will come to this later on,
    but Weissmandel was the first one
    who initiated in Slovakia, the negotiations with the Germans
    to rescue Jews for money, or against money.
    This was a Kasztner line.
    And Weissmandel, even advised Kasztner,
    around the people of the so-called Vaada in Budapest,
    to negotiate with Wisliceny.
    Wisliceny brought to them a letter
    from Weissmandel on the so-called working
    group of Slovakia.
    Weissmandel, Gisi Fleischmann one of them.
    all these people.
    And I don't think that--
    he was not against the negotiation--
    No.
    Selling Jews for one money, he was not.
    Did he talk with you about it?
    Yes, yes.
    He was not against, but it was clear in our conversation
    between us, and I thought so then, I still maintain it.
    That it's a complete absurdity to look from now backwards,
    or from a safe haven to the depth of hell
    and give judgment.
    He was right here, and he was wrong there,
    and what was the exact attitude which had to be adopted.
    I never maintained that we can sit so calmly and judge,
    I felt, and apparently on this we
    have agreed, that between the fighters against the German
    Nazis in the forests, and the underground warriors in one
    extreme, and between the fully fledged collaborators who
    served the Germans, for money for example,
    or because they were totally identified
    with them ideological.
    There was a very wide spectrum of people,
    extremely wide spectrum of people,
    who took different attitudes in the tragedy.
    Yes it is true.
    And I felt, and we may discuss it
    when we come to Kasztner, that Kasztner, definitely at a given
    time crossed the demarcation line
    so extremely, in such a far reaching
    way, that even backwards, thinking backwards
    and looking backwards and even from safety today, you can say,
    Yes, he was a Nazi collaborator.
    I would be very hesitant and I'll
    think over hundreds of times before saying it
    on Judenrat A or Judenrat B, and people
    who were under agony and who have
    tried their best to save lives.
    I wouldn't have said it about Kasztner
    in the first steps of his activity, when he started
    to negotiate, when he met, them when he tried to please them,
    when he wanted to gain time.
    Who are we to come and judge, you should
    have done exactly this or that?
    He crossed the line, he in the beginning of the year 1945
    when German generals were hanging by Hitler,
    he became part, an integral part of the last remnants
    of the loyal SS.
    When do you date if it is possible to do that--
    This is January, February, March and April 1945.
    In Vienna, in Berlin he went wherever
    the high command of the SS was.
    It is true.
    And he became an integral part of it, he wasn't a Judenrat.
    Tamir.
    Cut four.
    OK.
    It was not the Judenrat and it was not typical.
    And to the best of my knowledge, this
    is a very single case to such an extent, and so deep.
    Every nation, every people has its wonderful elements
    and it has its weak ones which become a victim and eventually
    dangerous victim as I said, this is the exception.
    This is not the general thing.
    And what actually gave the final proof
    of this horrifying collaboration was the fact
    that after the war, in Nuremberg in 1947,
    he testified for Becher.
    He saved him from punishment by giving false affidavit.
    Totally false.
    He has tried which is known less to save Krumey
    And he succeeded at the beginning
    and he has written Krumey an unbelievable letter that he'll
    never forget his help.
    The man who was number two to Eichmann He
    has tried to persuade the American to bring Wisliceny
    from the hands of the Poles and the Slovaks where
    he was bound to face what was due to him, death.
    To an American part of Germany where his life could be
    rescued, and this is documented too and he has given
    a testimony relating to Jüttner to SS general Jüttner as well.
    So in a wholesale way, he tries to save arch Nazi killers
    because towards the end of the war,
    he crossed the line totally.
    And this is a very unique case, I
    don't know if any other could--
    Would you say that he was--
    you talked some minutes ago about
    his ideological collaborators who identify themselves as--
    No.
    He was not an ideological collaborator.
    I think he was caught by his own activity into the feeling
    that he's a part of the strong, of the winning
    side of the successful, of those who control the lives
    of hundreds of thousands.
    And he became part of them.
    He gradually identified himself with them, not ideologically.
    This is the winning side for the Germans at the end of the war.
    He knew--
    At the beginning.
    At the beginning.
    At the beginning when they came and took over
    Hungary and they had full control
    of the lives of the Jews.
    I mean, in the war between Germany and the Jews,
    they, unfortunately, were the winning side.
    Oh Yes.
    This is different.
    He came to represent the Jews.
    And I say again, the man started as an idealist,
    a Zionist socialist idealist.
    Power, power totally blinded him.
    I'll never forget how, once he was asked by journalists
    during the trial, in an interval,
    can you give us a description of Kurt Becher How was he?
    How did he look?
    Was he handsome?
    Was he good looking?
    Was he strong?
    And he said he was handsome as God.
    About Kurt Becher.
    The very expression, the identity was twisted.
    It's a tragedy.
    It's a unique case, I say.
    It's very non-typical.
    It has nothing to do with the Judenrats.
    But he was very clear.
    He was very lucid, in some way.
    I found in his report, at least two passages
    where he said, if you permit me I will read them to you.
    When he is negotiating with Eichmann about this transport
    from Koloszvár, from Cluj.
    This transport is 388 people, which is not much.
    And Eichmann is always delaying and delaying.
    And he writes, Kasztner, And now Eichmann
    simply stated that he did not want to keep his word,
    not even to these few.
    If I take this as such, this is Kasztner writes,
    We become accomplices to the deportation
    of people who after so much suffering
    have been chosen to be rescued.
    With this, the lowest point has been reached,
    we cannot go on in this way.
    He knew the line.
    This was quoted by Judge Halevy, the president of the district
    court.
    This was put by himself in a very sophisticated way
    and showed that he had it in mind.
    And he escaped from these situations.
    This one is even less sophisticated.
    If now Eichmann cannot be forced to come to reason,
    then the Vaada entering this game of roulette on human
    lives, I'm putting its money on the German side, was as naive,
    a loser as many of those of us in occupied Europe.
    Then the media and Spade we complete
    craziness, the loser in this game is also called traitor.
    The word roulette is very typical to the attitude
    of this man.
    Yes.
    Roulette with the lives of hundreds of thousands.
    He simply lost, in the tragedy, the last senses of values.
    But even though he did not live in a death camp
    or in Treblinka, or Majdanek, and he lived in Budapest,
    in relatively comfortable conditions but his mind
    was totally twisted by this horrifying pressure.
    This happened to leaders of other nations
    who crossed the line and collaborated.
    And the tragedy here, was that, if you
    take a quisling or Laval, they betrayed sovereignty freedom,
    independence.
    Their justification, which was no justification,
    but their justification, coming from them, was someday,
    this situation will change and we have saved the people
    and we've saved the country, physically.
    And freedom will dawn upon us one day.
    This they could whisper to themselves, perhaps.
    There's no justification.
    Kasztner collaborated with a death machine.
    Behind this collaboration, there was no future.
    There was only one thing, the few
    who will be escaped, that he will choose.
    And of course, we have debated this horrible dilemma time
    and again, and we've posed the question,
    we've posed the question to the court.
    If you are the captain of a boat,
    in charge of 1,000 passengers, and all of a sudden
    you know that something bad is going to happen to the boat.
    Are you allowed to pick 10 members of the passengers,
    quietly, calmly, hiding the facts from the 990,
    put them on a small tiny boat and say, save your lives?
    Or is it your duty to announce, the boat is about to wreck?
    Everybody should try to save his life.
    I can't take care of all of us.
    My line was, the minute you can't
    take care of the life of everybody
    and save them, your only duty is share with them the facts,
    and everybody will be responsible for his own life.
    When you hide the facts to save the 10,
    you are pushing the 990 to the fateful death,
    and knowingly, this is the collaboration.
    And we've proven that he did hide the facts from the people
    at the price of rescuing the few.
    This was the collaboration.
    You know what the people who support
    Kasztner, today and there are still people who support--
    Yes, who vouch for him.
    Yes it's his country.
    And you know what they answer to this?
    They answer several things.
    They say once that, I don't agree with them personally,
    they said that Kasztner tried to warn them.
    This is a new finding, that he sent the Halutzim,
    in some ghetto, in order to warn the people of the ghetto.
    Yes, you know what the supporters of Kasztner,
    and there are still many, answer to your argumentation.
    They say two things.
    They say that, first of all, Kasztner
    tried to warn the people of the ghetto.
    That the Vaada sent young Halutzim in several ghetto
    and that they told the truth but that the people didn't
    want to believe it.
    And the second things they say, is that to warn,
    would have been absolutely useless, for this very reason
    that the majority of the people didn't want to believe,
    and wouldn't have want to believe.
    In any case, to which they answer, personally,
    that it is not true, because I think
    that the natural chiefs of the community, would have
    speak themselves.
    I'll say the truth maybe those things would
    have been different, but what is your own answer?
    The two arguments are contradicting each other.
    Because had Kasztner really believed, or taken
    the line of warning to the masses then the other story,
    that it wouldn't work, wouldn't have come.
    The other argument of his supporters,
    shows that they didn't believe in this line.
    I don't want to argue the fact that maybe at the beginning
    a few warnings were made, although all the elements
    of proof were contrary to that.
    But what does it mean to warn?
    The natural instinct of a man is to disbelieve
    that death is coming upon him.
    Ask every sick man in cancer, most people
    will hope, that somehow it won't happen.
    That it isn't cancer, that it isn't that bad.
    The natural human desire for life
    pushes aside any information that he's doomed.
    Therefore, the duty to warn must be a very heavy one,
    and the warning must come from very competent authority,
    in order to neutralize this natural instinct
    of this belief.
    Very high.
    And therefore, it had to come from very authoritative sources
    who are trusted, their leaders, accepted leaders.
    Then the two lines couldn't go together.
    The Germans gave Kasztner, or promised
    to give the 380, which later developed
    into a somewhat larger number of 600 and still later, 1,200.
    And it was exploited along a very long time.
    Every time for another purpose.
    But the main purpose at the beginning
    was one; to blind the masses by taking the leaders
    and putting them into a special category
    so that their interests will conflict
    the interests of the masses.
    The interest of the masses was to know, to escape, to revolt,
    to hide, to save themselves.
    The interests of the few who were chosen
    to be put on a train and led to eventual safety,
    was to keep calm, not to notify, let the program develop
    while they are put in safety.
    And this was the satanic gimmick of Eichmann with which
    Kasztner collaborated.
    The conflict of interest developed immediately,
    when a group of selected ones was put aside.
    That moment the tragedy started.
    And he was dedicated to the mission.
    He was ambitious.
    He wanted to succeed.
    He called it the ark of Noah.
    He made it an ideology.
    And that moment, he objectively started
    to be a tool in the hands of the Nazis.
    Later, it became a knowing tool, which was done already,
    willfully.
    Not that he wanted to see the death of the masses,
    but he developed the other terrible phenomena.
    The apathy to the hundreds of thousands.
    They are dead.
    They are hopeless.
    They actually are not regarded anymore,
    although they are still alive, but the order of death
    is over their heads.
    Nothing doing.
    And all the effort should be concentrated on the few.
    And I say, as a Supreme Court Judge Zilber eventually judged,
    there is no human being who is authorized
    to take the place of God and say,
    you will go to death, masses, and you
    few will be rescued because I have chosen you.
    And I'm paying a price for your safety,
    not just as I rescue you and the other are sunk in a hurricane.
    I'm paying a price because the masses rely on me, because I
    could have divulged the story.
    And the collaboration became so close, that he knew everything.
    He was in the picture already, and the German, already,
    could trust him.
    He knew everything about Auschwitz.
    He knew everything about what's going on among the Germans,
    themselves.
    He became part of the Nazi [INAUDIBLE]
    in Hungary, gradually.
    And eventually, in the beginning of 1945,
    they took him all around, all around.
    He came back from Switzerland, to Vienna,
    when they were almost no Jews there,
    to accompany the Nazi leaders.
    He was an alibi for them.
    He was the alibi for them and they kept him,
    and they trusted the developments
    that even in the free world, he would
    continue to give them an alibi.
    Yes, and he was a kind of Inspector of the concentration
    camps.
    According to some reports.
    I don't know the facts for that.
    No, no, I mean at the end, objectively, when he went--
    Not an inspector.
    There were all kinds of rumors to how deep
    and how close this friendship and fraternity developed
    between them and himself.
    But anyhow, I agree with you the tragedy as a selection,
    it started--
    It started there but it developed
    into a much deeper abyss.
    Yes.
    We could say this, he was negotiating with Eichmann
    in order to save some Jewish lives.
    And because he was negotiating in order to save some,
    he had to keep the side on the secrecy
    and to doom all the others.
    This is the paradox of the negotiation.
    Because in principle, he was negotiating
    to save Jewish lives.
    That's how it started.
    But towards the end, he didn't save anybody.
    But this leads us to something else,
    and I would like you very much to talk about this.
    And I know it's very difficult to formulate,
    and I don't even know how to formulate it myself,
    but there was who did he select in the Koloszvár.
    He selected, mostly a kind of elite people,
    or which he considered as an elite, the Zionist
    or some other prominence.
    Not necessarily Zionists.
    No.
    He took from all branches.
    Not in Kolosvár Afterwards in Budapest.
    In Cluj and Koloszvár there were 20,000 Jews.
    And among them, there were thousands of Zionists.
    He picked leaders, or what he considered
    leaders, or activists, or prominent people.
    This was the word, prominent.
    Among them, of course, were Zionist prominent people,
    but not only them.
    Some people, apparently, were put in the list
    because they have donated to the fund of the committee
    and not to his personal purpose.
    There were a few very religious people.
    Rabbi Teitelbaum was there.
    But the Zionists, and the Zionist of his party,
    were among those who were firstly selected
    for this prominent group.
    Yes.
    But I give you two pages, 20 and 21.
    Maybe you put the question yourself?
    I mean, what is very wrong, and you said it perfectly,
    is the idea of selection.
    But it is true, too, that everybody couldn't be saved.
    Whether you know the point of the people who
    support Kasztner's stand.
    It's what they said during the trial,
    and what they go and say today.
    That because it was impossible to save everybody,
    it was perfectly right to choose a kind of sample,
    and people of its own kind.
    They said that it was always so in Jewish history,
    where they had to choose.
    They choose the people or their own family,
    or their own political parties.
    And what I don't like in all this, is the idea of an elite.
    I agree completely with you.
    But I think and I say this myself.
    You are not obliged to agree with me.
    Zionism was born with the idea that it
    was necessary to redeem the Jewish people.
    And, of course, it's not so difficult to trace a line which
    says if it's impossible to save everybody,
    it's better to save the people who
    redeem than there was no one.
    And for instance, as a lawyer of Kasztner
    during the trial, the church, Chaim Cohen
    had a very striking, and for me, for many
    who have horrifying word.
    A sentence he wrote, he said, for those and millions of Jews
    like them, I mean Jews who were murdered.
    They came to the old curse on laws
    they were meant to be taken like sheep for slaughter,
    for killing, for destruction, for crushing and shame, which
    is a biblical saying, as we know.
    But he goes on, and he says, there was no spirit in them.
    The Jewish masses in the Warsaw were in the same condition.
    What would you say?
    I'll first react to your first point, where you say,
    if you can't save everybody, you save those who you can.
    I don't say this, myself.
    All that this was claimed, for example,
    if many people are in danger, you take care of your family.
    Definitely and naturally.
    Private citizen, private member of the community, or even
    a small activist.
    I call it small.
    When he sees danger around, and many people are in danger,
    and he has his wife, his children, his parents,
    it's perfectly natural that he'll
    do his utmost, first to save those who are close to him.
    I would be the last to argue against such
    a natural inborn attitude.
    I'm talking of the role of a leader who was trusted
    with a mission, rescue mission.
    A rescue mission of hundreds of thousands,
    who capitulates and winds up in a personal rescue
    operation, or semi-permanent rescue operation,
    at the price of collaborating with the killers of those
    whom he was destined, or sent, or take upon himself,
    to rescue.
    So it's all the difference in the world.
    I said, too, that only the family.
    But the people of their own parties,
    and in political parties.
    Political party is another story.
    I don't think a man has a duty, any duty,
    in a moment of danger, to prefer members of one's own party,
    to members of somebody else's party.
    Party is a framework of political activity.
    It has nothing to do with saving lives, and so on.
    But as to your second point, you have made a quote
    from Attorney General, the then Attorney General Chaim
    Cohen, today a member of the Supreme Court.
    I bitterly contested in the trial, this attitude.
    First of all, nobody, neither Kasztner, nor any other Zionist
    leader then, had the right to say, those are the doomed ones,
    and those are the chosen for life.
    And who is to say that there was no spirit them?
    I've answered in court, I feel it today,
    with the same conviction.
    No spirit?
    Hannah Szenes?
    Jews of Hungary?
    He didn't talk about Hannah Szenes.
    He talked of the masses.
    How many Hannah Szenes's were there
    in Hungary, that we don't know their names, because they
    are dead?
    Out of the same Hungary, came a boy,
    who later was known as Dov Gruner, was put to the gallows
    by the British, here in this country.
    Or Weiss.
    Or Perez Goldstein.
    Do we know who had the spirit and who didn't have spirit?
    Mothers had no spirit to rescue and risk their own lives
    to save their children?
    Husbands to protect their wives with their own body,
    had they known all the facts?
    How many people like Rabbi Weissmandel,
    not as eloquent, not leaders, but with the same soul
    and the same spirit, and the same readiness to be active.
    Hundreds of thousands of people.
    To justify him?
    You have to put after the death an epitaph
    over their dead bodies, they had no spirit
    because the leadership failed?
    Bitterly disagreed.
    I bitterly disagreed today, and I think it's totally wrong.
    How do you how do you explain that they
    came to such extremities to think like this?
    This is a question that should be posed for people said it.
    I'm not so sure, I think.
    To think that it is an explanation given
    by a single man.
    I mean the Zimmerman trial--
    In the trial it was given by the Attorney General who
    defended the case of Kasztner against our charges,
    and he has raised every argument.
    I think that, philosophically, morally,
    from any standard of values, it is wrong.
    It is wrong.
    I think so, too, deeply.
    You cannot elaborate more on this.
    No, because as to the old debate in Zionism,
    I can only say this.
    Zionism, and here I totally disagreed
    with this wonderful man, Rabbi Weissmandel,
    that Zionism was never meant to save the few
    with the price of the many.
    The founders of Zionism, Herzl, Nordau eventually Jabotinsky,
    came to their Zionist conviction with one aim,
    one paramount aim, to save Jewry, all of Jewry
    and to begin with the European Jewry
    from the danger of extinction, 60 years back.
    Max Nordau, famous writer and the aide of Herzl,
    said, almost in quote, 5 million Jews
    are in danger of extinction in Europe,
    and Zionism is established in order to uproot them
    from Europe, and replant them in the land of Israel,
    to save the masses.
    And this was the line of Herzl.
    Herzl didn't envisage a small tiny Jewish community
    in Palestine, which will be only a sample of something
    special of the elite.
    He meant the replant of the Jewish masses
    in the new Renaissance, spiritual but physical as well.
    And this was the line of Jabotinsky, mass evacuation
    and mass--
    Tamir, set.
    Be replanted.
    This was the idea of Jabotinsky--
    mass evacuation, mass rescue, and the building
    of a new country of the same very people, but in altogether
    a new environment, a new climate,
    a new framework of sovereignty.
    Zionism, original Zionism, is basically
    a humanistic movement.
    And its uppermost consideration was the rescue of the Jews,
    not just a spiritual movement.
    And therefore, this exceptional case of betrayal
    is anti-Zionist, is contrary to Zionism.
    It's a single case.
    And it's very far from being a typical to Zionist activity.
    Yes, I agree fully with you.
    But don't you think that the picture was
    distorted a little bit later?
    I mean, this quotation of Chaim Cohen
    is not unique, not only is the quotation, but the attitude.
    For instance, you talked about rescue,
    but there was a rescue committee in Palestine
    during the war, 1942, 1943, 1944.
    And the president of this rescue committee was this [INAUDIBLE]..
    So there are many criticism of speeches that he gave.
    When he said, if I have to choose, we have no money,
    but a few money we have, we have to choose
    between to give this money to the currently made Jewish
    National Fund in Israel in order to buy land
    or to buy and so on, or to give this money
    to rescue the masses of the Jews of Europe
    who were in danger of extermination.
    Very consciously I choose the cow.
    I'm not sure your quote is totally accurate.
    But the spirit was--
    Well, the spirit issue.
    His spirit was, his line was, that the work of building
    the country and concentrating on this operation,
    his first priority even over sending money
    to rescue of Jews in Europe, I think
    it was a very wrong attitude.
    I've attacked this attitude in the trial of Kasztner.
    I think it's a very egocentric non-Zionist attitude.
    And the failure of this philosophy
    was proven in a very catastrophic way.
    This was not the only grave mistake of leadership
    in the free world.
    Apparently, among all people, the immediate light or slight
    pain of your own is much more important to you
    than the most horrible savage atrocities
    committed against tens of thousands far away.
    The human being is built in a very egotistic way.
    But if it can be understood as to private people,
    it still remain a very grave mistake, sometimes crime,
    when it remains in the leadership,
    especially of your own people.
    But this is an internal retroactive deep painful debate
    among our own people.
    We have been faced, in the second World War,
    in the time of the Holocaust, with a combination, the most
    dreadful combination any people, any nation, any community ever
    faced.
    Killers over our heads in Europe headed by the Nazi Germans
    worked in cooperation with Hungarian Nazis,
    with Romanian Nazis, with Polish Nazis, with Ukrainian Nazis,
    with French Nazis, and so on.
    And the other world, the free world, was fighting Nazism--
    England, America, and even the Soviet Union.
    And there is a reason why I say even,
    because it was their fight to rescue a good number of Jews
    eventually.
    But the rest of the world has acted
    in a conspiracy of silence, of acquiescence
    with the death of the Jews.
    Not only acquiescence, there was even
    a partial indirect cooperation in bringing about the death.
    Because the refusal of England and America
    to dispatch one single bomber to explode Auschwitz crematoria,
    thus saving tens of thousands, if not more,
    Jews was not just an omission.
    It was an act of cooperation with death
    because it was done knowingly.
    And that's what contributed greatly
    to our revolt against the British
    towards the end of the second World War in this country,
    in Israel, in Palestine, in the then Palestine.
    So we were trapped between killers
    and between conspirators of silence
    of the whole world, isolated.
    And in view of this combination, all the debates
    that we have internally as to what were our mistakes
    or mistakes of our leadership are fading in comparison
    to this dreadful unique unprecedented combination
    of evil doers, Nazi warmongers, killers, fanatics,
    exterminators, and the calm, nonchalant, possibly somewhere
    satisfied people elsewhere who saw
    the death of the Jewish people and did
    nothing specific to save the Jews in the worst hour.
    What do you remember yourself personally over this time?
    I do.
    I do.
    I was a very young man.
    And we heard rumors that there might
    have been chances of rescue, and they were not exploited.
    And we were here in the safe Palestine, then Palestine.
    We knew of boats who were turned back by the British loaded
    with refugees.
    Even at the beginning of the war,
    we had the case of Struma, the boat with close to 1,000 Jews--
    men, women, and children--
    was disallowed to continue the way to Palestine.
    Sank into the ocean.
    And this was a direct result of British policy.
    And this was one of the very strong contributing factors
    that pushed a young man like me into the underground
    to fight the British while the war was going on.
    I can go even to detail.
    I remember the real direct push to join the underground,
    the underground Irgun Tzva Leumi was
    the desire for an independent country of our own.
    On the other hand, there were all kinds
    of deterrent elements--
    fear, doubt whether we can be successful.
    And there was a certain balance in the calculation in the mind.
    Should I do it or shouldn't I?
    It was involving danger for your own life and everything
    that is connected with it.
    The deciding factor, which brought about my decision,
    yes, take all these chances, was the Holocaust and the feeling
    that the British who fought Nazis at the same time
    prevented the Jews from rescue.
    So it was a fight of freedom combined with the reaction
    to the role of the good part of the world
    and the horrible tragedy.
    So excuse me.
    Tamir (film slating)
    Paradoxically and tragically, the British
    who fought the Nazis, the very same time
    prevented the Jews from being rescued.
    So both the most evil part of the world, Nazi Germany,
    and the bastion of freedom, England and the United States,
    in this dreadful combination by active killing
    and by passive acquiescence wound up with the fact
    that the Jews were slaughtered.
    And this feeling pushed boys like me in this country
    then to feel that we are not better than our brethren
    in Europe.
    And that we have to make the ultimate risk
    and to take all chances to put an end to this situation
    where Jews are being squeezed between killers
    and between conspirators of silence
    and eventually go to death chambers.
    And therefore, fight for freedom,
    for sovereignty, for independence,
    for a new Jewish Renaissance.
    In what rescue was concerned, rescue of the European Jews,
    did you have a feeling of helplessness?
    We felt that--
    Of powerlessness.
    Well, there were efforts.
    You know of the parachutists, the few parachutists who were
    sent to Europe by the Haganah.
    Yes.
    And there was an attempt to organize a similar group,
    a bigger group by the Irgun which failed because it
    was dependent on the British.
    But above all, even in '44, the actual knowledge
    of ours in this country was very limited, very obscured.
    And this is an altogether another story,
    but it's a very important one.
    How the facts were brought to the knowledge of the people
    in a way which didn't call them to an all out alarm.
    While there were elements who knew the facts for sure,
    the detailed facts.
    You're saying it was done in purpose?
    Some people thought this is the wise way.
    That things should be handled diplomatically.
    That efforts should be done in a way which
    won't create storms which may endanger this development
    or that development.
    These were very grave mistakes looking upon them
    retroactively, very grave mistakes.
    But again, this is an internal accounting
    that we do in our midst.
    And we have to do as a lesson for the future.
    But in face of what we faced from the outside world
    from the global situation, all the Jewish mistakes
    fade in comparison.
    Although when we are in our midst,
    we have to go deep into them.
    You know, I come back just once to Kasztner and Weissmandel.
    I said at the beginning of this conversation
    that Weissmandel was the one who initiated
    the bargaining with the Germans to save Jews with money.
    And it's a very extraordinary and beautiful story
    because the Germans were very interested
    in the idea of the Jewish power, that international Jewry
    was powerful and full of money.
    And it was not true, of course, on Weissmandel
    to invent even to create a character that he invented.
    And he said to the Germans [INAUDIBLE]
    I received the money from this one who work the International
    Jew.
    But yourself in principle, where you
    are you opposed to the idea of this negotiation?
    No, I saw nothing wrong in trying to save Jews
    for money or in any other way.
    Weissmandel, in my opinion, never
    came close to the demarcation line between an attempt
    to rescue and between collaboration, never.
    Very far from it.
    He was a beautiful soul.
    And the attempt to save souls with money, ransom
    is legitimate.
    It's tragic, but it's totally legitimate.
    It's so humane.
    What is money in comparison to a single human life?
    And it is what Weissmandel had actually asked.
    And he asked apart from other things,
    but he saw the whole scope.
    He said send us money to do it with money.
    Help us with other elements to--
    Bombers.
    No, no, before the bombers.
    To let people hide.
    Send bombers to drop leaflets all over Hungary
    so that the people will know for sure that they are doomed
    and do everything to save their lives.
    This is contrary to the whole Kasztner operation.
    And then he said bomb the bridges.
    Bomb Auschwitz.
    Made an outcry.
    Make that the major powers declare
    to Germany and to every German that he
    will be punished to death after the war
    if he participates in the atrocities.
    He saw all the scopes of activity
    because his heart was with these people.
    He identified himself with the people.
    He was a leader of the people.
    He was in the underground.
    And among other things, he tried the money element.
    Where is the pure Weissmandel really the leader of his people
    who initiated everything.
    Who cried his heart out.
    Who did everything in comparison with these terrible phenomena
    single.
    But frightful, which wound up in such a shameful collaboration.
    Single, not typical, which we can lament.
    And I would again define a man whose soul
    was burned in Auschwitz.
    That's it.
    (film logistics)
    Don't contain my smile.

    There is no transcript available for this track

    Overview

    Description
    Shmuel Tamir represented the defendant in the Kasztner libel trial in Israel He speaks passionately about the virtues of Rabbi Weissmandel and the perfidy of Rudolf Kasztner.

    FILM ID 3396 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:05 to 01:33:41
    CR 1 01:00:05 - 01:11:16
    Shmuel Tamir sits at a wooden table in front of a striped curtain with several books on the table in front of him. Lanzmann says that one of the main protagonists of his film is Rabbi Weissmandel. He asks Tamir to explain how he met Weissmandel and what his impressions were. Tamir says that in the course of the Kasztner trial he came across a heartbreaking document (he thinks he obtained it from Joel Brand) that turned out to have been written by Weissmandel, in which he accused the Jews who were not living in Europe of ignoring what was happening there. Tamir was impressed with the document and found out more about Weissmandel: that he had escaped a train heading toward Auschwitz, leaving his wife and family on the train, and that he had eventually established a Yeshiva in Mount Kisco, NY. Tamir wanted to meet Weissmandel, and did so in January 1956, in Mount Kisco. Weissmandel knew that Tamir was there seeking information to use in the Kasztner trial but he didn't want to cooperate because of his opposition to Zionism. Eventually Tamir became more aggressive in his demands for information and Weissmandel began to open up, although he refused outright to go to Jerusalem.

    CR 2 01:11:21 - 01:22:27
    Tamir is now looking at a book as he sits at the table. There is a brief shot of Lanzmann standing next to him and looking over his shoulder. Lanzmann's voice, off camera, instructs Tamir not to look at the camera but instead to look at the book until he tells him to start speaking. Weissmandel showed Tamir several letters and other documents that he had sent from Slovakia to the Allied nations during the war. Tamir says that these documents contained facts and "atmosphere" that, taken together, were extremely important as testimony. Weissmandel refused to let Tamir take the documents to use in Israel. Tamir greatly admired Weissmandel, although they were from different worlds. Another rabbi gave Tamir copies of the documents three hours before he was to return to Israel. Tamir reads, from the book in front of him, Weissmandel's accusation against those who did not help during the deportation of the Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz and his demand that the rail lines to Auschwitz be bombed. Tamir says that Weissmandel later gave him some tips about how to conduct the trial (the Kasztner trial was over but had been appealed).

    CR 3 01:22:33 - 01:33:41
    Lanzmann asks Tamir if he and Weissmandel discussed Kasztner specifically. Tamir says that Weissmandel was critical of Kasztner, even though he was taken to the Swiss border with Kasztner and Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's deputy. Tamir further states that this trip was taken in order to save Krumey. Tamir is of the opinion that Kasztner became enthralled with the power he held as a collaborator with the Nazis. He says that he suggested at the trial the Kasztner's "soul was burned at Auschwitz." Weissmandel told Tamir that Kasztner's reason for "collaborating" was money. Lanzmann clarifies that he is asking about Weissmandel's opinion of Kasztner because Weissmandel was the first one in Slovakia to use money to try and bribe the Germans, and he advised Kasztner and the others in the Aid and Rescue Committee (Vaada). Tamir says that of course Weissmandel believed in using money to save Jews, and that he himself does not believe that one can sit safely in the present moment and judge those who were operating in "the depths of hell", but that in the wide spectrum of behavior between the resistance movements and full-fledged collaboration, Kasztner crossed the line. He says he would be very hesitant to judge, for example, members of various Judenrats, but that by 1945 Kasztner had become "an integral part of the last remnants of the loyal SS."

    FILM ID 3397 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:05 to 02:33:31
    CR 4 02:00:05 - 02:11:14
    Tamir continues talking about Kasztner, saying that Kasztner was not a member of a Judenrat, and that the Kasztner affair was a unique case. Tamir points out that Kasztner made a statement on behalf of [Kurt] Becher after the war, and tried to help Krumey and Dieter Wisliceny. Tamir says that Kasztner became somehow identified with the SS and that his identity became twisted. Lanzmann reads a couple of quotations from Kasztner's writing. Tamir says that Kasztner should have warned the Jews of their fate. Lanzmann begins to tell Tamir that those who defend Kasztner say that he tried to warn people by sending members of the Halutzim youth movement into the ghettos.

    CR 5 02:11:17 - 02:22:23
    Lanzmann repeats his statement about the Halutzim being sent into the ghettos, and says that Kasztner's defenders also say that warning people was pointless because they would not have wanted to believe what was happening. Tamir says that these two arguments are contradictory, and that it was in the interests of the privileged, including Kasztner, not to warn the masses, so that the privileged few would be saved. He describes this as the "satanic gimmick of Eichmann, with which Kasztner collaborated." Tamir says there were all sorts of rumors about how close the relationship was between Kasztner and the SS leaders with whom he associated at the very end of the war. Lanzmann says that Kasztner selected mostly Zionists to be saved from Kolozsvar (Cluj) but Tamir disagrees with him and says that he selected leaders, among whom were Zionists, religious Jews, and others.

    CR 6 02:22:28 - 02:33:31
    CU on Tamir's face as he listens intently to Lanzmann's question about whether since it was impossible to save everyone, wasn't it natural for Kasztner to choose to save members of his family and those who were part of his circle, including Zionists. Lanzmann says further that Zionists saw themselves as the redeemers of the Jews, and so it would be natural to want to save those who could redeem. Tamir says that he says of course it was natural for Kasztner to want to save his family, but not at the price of collaboration. He says further that he disagreed strongly with Kasztner's lawyer when he said that those who were murdered had no spirit left and compared them to the masses in Warsaw. Tamir says that in his opinion, and here he disagreed with Weissmandel, Zionism was never meant to save the few at the price of the many.

    FILM ID 3398 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 03:00:05 to 03:20:10
    CR 7 03:00:05 - 03:11:19
    Tamir continues talking about Zionism and says that the Kasztner case is antithetical to Zionist activitiy. Lanzmann says that Chaim Cohen's (Kaztner's lawyer) attitude was not unique, and quotes Yitzhak Gruenbaum, head of the rescue committee in Palestine, as saying that the choice was to use money to rescue European Jews or to buy cows for the people of Palestine, he would choose the cow. Tamir says he doesn't think this quote is accurate but says he disagrees with this attitude. He says that the rest of the world acquiesced in the murder of the Jews, and that England and the US cooperated indirectly with the Germans by refusing to bomb the Auschwitz crematoria. Lanzmann asks Tamir what he remembers of this time. Tamir mentions the sinking of the Struma, a direct result of British policy, which was one of the things that drove him to take up the fight against the British.

    CR 8 03:11:33 - 03:20:10 Quick shot of Lanzmann before the camera pans back over to Tamir. Tamir says that paradoxically and tragically, the British, who fought the Nazis, also prevented the Jews from being saved. Lanzmann asks him whether he and others felt helpless to save the Jews of Europe, and Tamir mentions some rescue attempts that were made. He says that not everyone was made aware of what was going on, and that this was a mistake. He also says that the Jewish mistakes pale in comparison to the mistakes made by those in the rest of the world. Tamir says that he saw nothing wrong with trying to save Jews with money or any other means, and that Weissmandel never came close to crossing the line that Kasztner crossed. Weissmandel asked that leaflets be dropped on Hungary to inform the Jews that they were doomed, in contrast to Kasztner's attempts to keep the extermination quiet. He repeats that Kasztner's soul was burned in Auschwitz. He gathers up his books and remains seated for several seconds.

    FILM ID 3399 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,9A,9B -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:43
    Claude Lanzmann seated at a table, taking notes and listening to Tamir. He lights a cigarette, nods his head, and speaks occasionally (no sound).
    Duration
    01:34:00
    Date
    Event:  September or October 1979
    Production:  1985
    Locale
    Israel
    Credit
    Created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of "Shoah," used by permission of USHMM and Yad Vashem
    Contributor
    Director: Claude Lanzmann
    Interpreter: Corinna Coulmas
    Sound Engineer: Bernard Aubouy
    Cinematographer: William Lubtchansky
    Biography
    Claude Lanzmann was born in Paris to a Jewish family that immigrated to France from Eastern Europe. He attended the Lycée Blaise-Pascal in Clermont-Ferrand. His family went into hiding during World War II. He joined the French resistance at the age of 18 and fought in the Auvergne. Lanzmann opposed the French war in Algeria and signed a 1960 antiwar petition. From 1952 to 1959 he lived with Simone de Beauvoir. In 1963 he married French actress Judith Magre. Later, he married Angelika Schrobsdorff, a German-Jewish writer, and then Dominique Petithory in 1995. He is the father of Angélique Lanzmann, born in 1950, and Félix Lanzmann (1993-2017). Lanzmann's most renowned work, Shoah, is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. He began interviewing survivors, historians, witnesses, and perpetrators in 1973 and finished editing the film in 1985. In 2009, Lanzmann published his memoirs under the title "Le lièvre de Patagonie" (The Patagonian Hare). He was chief editor of the journal "Les Temps Modernes," which was founded by Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, until his death on July 5, 2018. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/postscript/claude-lanzmann-changed-the-history-of-filmmaking-with-shoah
    From 1974 to 1984, Corinna Coulmas was the assistant director to Claude Lanzmann for his film "Shoah." She was born in Hamburg in 1948. She studied theology, philosophy, and sociology at the Sorbonne and Hebrew language and Jewish culture at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and INALCO in Paris. She now lives in France and publishes about the Five Senses. http://www.corinna-coulmas.eu/english/home-page.html

    Physical Details

    Language
    English
    Genre/Form
    Outtakes.
    B&W / Color
    Color
    Image Quality
    Good
    Film Format
    • Master
      • Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3396 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3396 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3396 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3397 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3397 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3397 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - large
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3398 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3398 Film: full-coat mag track - 16 mm - magnetic - sound - workprint
      Master 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3398 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
      Master 3399 Film: negative - 16 mm - color - silent - original negative
      Master 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - color - workprint
      Master 3399 Video: Digital Betacam - color - NTSC - small
    • Preservation
      • Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3396 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3396 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3397 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3397 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - large
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3398 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3398 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
      Preservation 3399 Film: positive - 16 mm - polyester - color - silent - interpositive - A-wind - Kodak - 3242
      Preservation 3399 Video: Betacam SP - color - NTSC - small
    • User
      • User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3396 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3397 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3398 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color
      User 3399 Video: DVD - color

    Rights & Restrictions

    Conditions on Access
    You do not require further permission from the Museum to access this archival media.
    Copyright
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel
    Conditions on Use
    Third party must sign the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's SHOAH Outtakes Film License Agreement in order to reproduce and use film footage. Contact filmvideo@ushmm.org

    Copyright Holder
    United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    Yad Vashem
    State of Israel

    Keywords & Subjects

    Administrative Notes

    Legal Status
    Permanent Collection
    Film Provenance
    The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the Shoah outtakes from Claude Lanzmann on October 11, 1996. The Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection is now jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem - The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority.
    Note
    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating survivors, perpetrators, and eyewitnesses for his nine and a half hour film Shoah released in 1985. Without archival footage, Shoah weaves together extraordinary testimonies to render the step-by-step machinery of the destruction of European Jewry. Critics have called it "a masterpiece" and a "monument against forgetting." The Claude Lanzmann SHOAH Collection consists of roughly 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming.

    Staff-curated clips include:
    Clip 1, Film ID 3396, 01:00:26 - 01:10:58
    Clip 2, Film ID 3396, 01:22:33 - 01:33:35
    Clip 3, Film ID 3397, 02:11:17 - 02:29:18
    Clip 4, Film ID 3398, 03:00:08 - 03:09:52
    Film Source
    Claude Lanzmann
    File Number
    Legacy Database File: 5364
    Record last modified:
    2024-02-21 07:47:13
    This page:
    http:​/​/collections.ushmm.org​/search​/catalog​/irn1004453

    Additional Resources

    Transcript (English)
    Time Coded Notes (3)

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    Also in Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann spent twelve years locating and interviewing survivors, perpetrators, eyewitnesses, and scholars for the nine-and-a-half-hour film SHOAH released in 1985. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum purchased the archive of SHOAH outtakes from Mr. Lanzmann on October 11, 1996, and have since been carrying out the painstaking work necessary to reconstruct and preserve the films, which consist of 185 hours of interview outtakes and 35 hours of location filming. The collection is jointly owned by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. SHOAH is widely regarded as the seminal film on the subject of the Holocaust. It weaves together extraordinary testimonies to describe the step-by-step machinery implemented to destroy European Jewry. Critics call it “a sheer masterpiece” and a “monument against forgetting.”

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz - Cracow

    Film

    Tadeusz Pankiewicz was a Pole who ran a pharmacy within the confines of the Krakow ghetto, refusing the Germans' offer to let him relocate to another part of the city. He aided Jews by providing free medication and allowing the pharmacy to be used as a meeting place for resisters. FILM ID 3220 -- Camera Rolls #1-2, 3-4, and 5-7 01:00:09 CR 1,2: Lanzmann and Pankiewicz stand in a Krakow street. They spend most of the interview in different parts of the Plac Zgody (now Plac Bohakerow Getta), from which Jews were deported from the Krakow ghetto. They begin walking. Pankiewicz tells Lanzmann that in 1941 he got the order to run a pharmacy within the ghetto. The Germans first required him to prove that he was not Jewish. From the window of his pharmacy he could see all the deportations from Plac Zgody and the horrible treatment meted out to the Jews. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz to describe exactly what he saw. They are standing on Targowa street, the street where the Jews were gathered for deportation, and where Pankiewics's pharmacy was situated. White screen with some audio from 01:03:16 to 01:04:02. The first slate says "Warsaw" but the interview is clearly in Krakow. CR 2 Lanzmann and Pankiewicz are sitting outdoors on a bench on Plac Lwowska in front of a constuction site (construction of a tram line?). Lanzmann says that an Aryan-run pharmacy in the ghetto was one of a kind. Pankiewicz says that he lived at the Apotheke, because he had to be available day and night. He says that after the liquidation [in March 1943], when the Jews would come from Plaszow, his pharmacy acted as a restaurant, supplying food to them. He talks about the division of the ghetto into two parts, part A (where those still capable of work lived) and part B (where those to be deported lived). He describes the barbed wire surrounding the ghetto and the guarded gates at the edges. Lanzmann asks him to describe the "Grosse Aktion" on the Plac Zgody. Pankiewicz says that Plac Zgody was the main deportation point and that he saw many terrible things from the window of his pharmacy. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews were hopeless and Pankiewicz says they were resigned. He says that when the liquidation came he himself did not eat for three days: he could not go out and he had always eaten in a Jewish restaurant. Pankiewicz says that during the first deportation, in June 1941, the Jews thought that they were being resettled in the Ukraine. However, by the time of the October 28, 1942 deportation the Jews knew that deportation meant death. A woman had written a letter to her relatives, telling them that she was in Belzec. Shots of people walking through the construction site. No audio. 01:16:08. Close-up of sign reading 17 Plac Zgody . Another plaque, perhaps commemorating the location. 02:00:00 CR 3,4: Long shot of the pharmacy. The camera pulls in to reveal Pankiewicz standing outside the pharmacy in a white coat. The pharmacy was located on Targowa Street. Close-ups of Pankiewicz. Shots of Pankiewicz inside the pharmacy. The slate now reads "Krakow." Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz why he wrote a book about his experiences. Pankiewicz says that he wanted to answer the many questions that were put to him after the war, to explain why he was not liquidated himself, and to tell those who had no contact with the ghetto what it was like. A confusing passage about Germans who were arrested immediately after the liquidation of the ghetto and about rescuing some Jews. Pankiewicz talks again about how he sold food, not medicine, to the Jewish laborers from Plaszow, because they were healthy but wanted food. Pankiewicz says that he had Jewish friends even before the war and that he only thinks in terms of good people and bad people, not Jew and non-Jew. He talks about the establishment of the ghetto and his reaction to it (the dates he uses are not consistent). He says he and his family had lived in the location where the ghetto was established, and he talks about hiding Jews in his room during the ghetto's liquidation (or during a deportation?). He says he received a letter from a woman in Israel who claimed to have hidden in the pharmacy, but he did not remember her. Lanzmann asks him about suicide in the ghetto. Pankiewicz says that there were some who did commit suicide, once they knew they were going to be deported. He says that the Jews knew what deportation/evacuation meant and so did he. News and letters came from Belzec. Lanzmann asks him why, in his opinion, if the Jews knew what would happen to them, did they not resist? He says the Jews thought that maybe they would actually survive, that the situation was not as bad as it was in Warsaw. He said many of the Jews had connection to the Polish side and were not as isolated as Warsaw Jews were. He said Jews could leave the ghetto at times but had no place to go. Helping Jews was an automatic death sentence, and the Jews often wanted to take their entire families with them. 03:00:00 CR 5, 6, 7: Pankiewicz knew of several cases where Poles helped Jews after the liquidation of the ghetto, but it was not possible to help entire families. Lanzmann asks Pankiewicz again why he thought the Jews did not fight when they were deported. He says he is not speaking of the Jewish resistance, but of the people who were trapped in the ghetto and deported. Pankiewicz say that the Jews were so resigned, had been through so much terror and horror, that they simply wanted an end. He says that if a wife was deported a husband and children might follow voluntarily. Yet at the same time the Jews maintained some small hope that they might not be murdered, might be able to help each other survive. Lanzmann asks about the role of the Jewish police. He says that there were good and bad police and gives an example of two policemen who he knew in school and who helped him to smuggle a Jew out of Krakow. He talks about various members of the Jewish Council, including Rosenzweig. Lanzmann points out that they were all liquidated in the end. Lanzmann asks again whether his burden was too much to bear during these times. Pankiewicz says no, although he was so bound up with the Jews, that he believed that what happened to them would also happen to him. He says that the Jews have built him up into a kind of legend, but it is not true. He did not know at the time what he was doing, he simply did it. Lanzmann asks him whether he was married at the time and he says no. He says he had dealings with only a few Germans. A new reel begins and Pankiewicz returns to the fact that the Jews have built a small legend out of him, but that he only did what one human should do for other humans who were in a tragic situation. 03:15:02 - 03:17:02 various shots of Pankiewicz.

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection

    Document

    Contains documentation, including indices, summaries, transcripts, and translations, compiled by Claude Lanzmann while developing the film "Shoah."

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Sobibor - Wlodowa (SOB)

    Film

    Interviews with local Polish people around Sobibor, Poland, including long sequences of a Catholic mass in Wlodowa. Lanzmann asks about the Jews in Wlodawa before the war and inquires how non-Jewish residents got along with the Jews. Includes shots of the Sobibor camp and environs. FILM ID 4674 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare CU, elderly woman and man sit indoors at the Sobibor train station. “Sobibor” sign. Local people sit on benches outside waiting for train. A train pulls into the station. End clapperboard: SOB 1. 01:03:03 Passengers look out the windows of the railway cars as the train departs from the station. End clapperboard: SOB 3. 01:04:54 More shots of the EXT of the railway station, another train arrives. Clapperboard: SOB 6. 01:07:03 Different views of a train departing from the Sobibor station. 01:08:18 Lanzmann and a female assistant run across the tracks gesturing to the cameraman to turn around and film the last railcar. Crew and soundman signal end of roll. 01:09:12 Another train on the tracks. 01:09:39 End FILM ID 4675 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 15 INT, elderly couple inside the Sobibor station. End clapperboard: ALEPH Holocauste / Lanzmann-Glasberg / SOB 4. EXT shots of the “Sobibor” sign at the railway station. Unidentified crew-member signals the end of camera roll SOB 5. No picture until 01:01:30, brief sequence of a woman walking along the grassy tracks. 01:01:36 Moving shots along the tree-lined railway tracks. 01:03:53 End FILM ID 4676 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes Bte 16 Sobibor Foret Forest surrounding Sobibor train station (trims). 01:00:57 End FILM ID 4677 -- Sobibor Bte 16 Coupe Piwonski Bois Mr. Piwonski smokes a cigarette outdoors at the Sobibor railway station. Lanzmann and Barbara join Mr. Piwonski on the bench (silent shots). They converse. Camera zooms in on them, CU of “Sobibor” sign. Different angle of the three of them on the bench. 01:08:51 End FILM ID 4678 -- White 15 Sobibor Gare Chutes SOB 30A Piwonski More shots of the railway station, with Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski standing in the grass by the tracks. 01:01:20 Clapperboard: SOB 30. The three sit on a bench, and walk back and forth across the tracks, gesturing (silent). End clapperboard: SOB 30. 01:05:52 End FILM ID 4679 -- Sobibor SOB 30 Piwonski Gare Mute shots of the Sobibor station house; Claude, Barbara, and Piwonski approach the tracks and the station. 01:01:26 End. FILM ID 4680 -- SOB 33-37 L'explique SOB Gare SOB 33. Lanzmann stands in the center of the railway tracks at the Sobibor train station and describes the history of the camp at Sobibor and the geography of the railway station (no transcript). 01:03:27 SOB 34 Another take of Lanzmann at the tracks. 01:06:33 SOB 35 Take 3. 01:09:46 SOB 36 Take 4, close-up. 01:12:09 SOB 37 Take 5, close-up. Lanzmann laughs. 01:12:55 End FILM ID 4681 -- White 16 Sobibor Foret Bte 16, Chutes Bte 87 Sobibor Gare Driving towards Sobibor on a tree-lined, dirt road. Side view of Lanzmann driving. 01:04:05 SOB 61 Snowy train tracks. PKP railcar. Snowing. The train departs the station. 01:07:29 Main station house, railway tracks, zoom into “Sobibor” sign. 01:10:09 End FILM ID 4682 -- White 17 Sobibor Christ Bte 17 Chutes Various shots of the statue of Jesus Christ at a crossroads in Sobibor. 01:09:42 Claude stands in front of the statue holding a “Sobibor” sign. Brief, locals at the roadside repairing a signpost. 01:12:20 End FILM ID 4683 -- White 18 Sobibor Mirador Bte 18 High-angle view of Sobibor forest from the observation tower, ominous clouds, green trees. Logging factory. Railway tracks. 01:02:50 End FILM ID 4684 -- White 19 Wlodowa Eglise Sound begins at 01:00:10; no picture until 01:00:39 (a brief shot of the church tower) and picture cuts out again until 01:01:05 Polish parishioners exit the church doors. 01:01:46 SOB 38. Mute shots, EXTs of the church in Wlodowa. Sign: “1 Ul. J. Gagarina” People leaving the Catholic mass, gathered outside the church. 01:06:07 SOB 39 Man kneels by a tree. 01:08:21 Locals (with sound). SOB 40 01:08:45 Street scenes in the town, people with umbrellas. 01:10:57 SOB 41 01:11:35 INT, the crowded church service (sound at first, then cuts out), people standing, various CUs. 01:15:46 BOB 85 Crowd spills outside the church, Catholic mass celebrated in Latin is heard on loudspeakers, people kneel in the grass with umbrellas. 01:17:42 SOB 44 01:17:50 Picture cuts out briefly until 01:18:04. CUs, parishioners under umbrellas outdoors, sounds of the church service cuts in and out. CU, children sharing an umbrella. Baby rocked in carriage. 01:20:35 Man covers the camera with his hand as service continues. Another baby in a stroller. 01:21:43 Elderly woman in kerchief, women and children. Men stand under tree outside of the church in Wlodowa. LS of the crowds gathered at mass. 01:24:06 Several newborns are brought into church to be baptized. SOB 48. 01:25:27 INTs, baptismal service. 01:29:55 Sound cuts out. INTs, church service. SOB 49 01:30:54 End FILM ID 4685 -- White 20 Wlodowa Ville SOB 52 Mute travelling shots from a car of the town of Wlodowa including the former homes of Jewish residents and an amusement park. 01:23:25 End FILM ID 4686 -- White 21 Wlodowa Synagogue SOB 55 EXT of old Wlodowa synagogue. 01:02:08 SOB 56 Outside the synagogue, Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the synagogue is very old, and he replies that the synagogue was built before the Catholic church, and the church is 460 years old. Lanzmann asks how long Jews have lived in Wlodawa, and the man says he has no idea, but that they have always been here. He explains that the Jews are merchants, and almost nomads, and that they arrived here for commerce, stayed, and built the synagogue. The man continues that it is too bad they cannot go inside the synagogue-- it is currently being rehabilitated, and the old paintings inside are being restored. Lanzmann asks for what purpose it is being rehabilitated, and he says that the State is turning it into a museum. He says that Jews came from Palestine and saw the synagogue, which had been turned into shops, and asked for it to be restored. 01:05:18 Coupe, muffled conversation among the crew. 01:05:27 Mute shots of the synagogue. 01:07:04 End FILM ID 4687 -- SOB 45-47 Interview Sortie Messe Wlodowa SOB 45 Lanzmann asks one of the church participants whether he knows what Sobibor is. The man, who tells the crew that he is 65, replies that he is from Wlodawa, so of course he does; he was there. At Sobibor, he says, there was a camp where they burned Jews. The man fought on both fronts during the war, and spent time in Wlodawa during the war and during the German occupation. When asked whether there were Jews in Wlodawa at that time, the man replies that there were a great number-- half the population. When the Germans arrived, he explains, they began deporting Jews to the Sobibor camp, as well as to others. Before the war, he says, the Jews in Wlodawa were largely merchants and artisans. They lived all over town, and another man in the crowd of parishioners (Mr. Filipowicz) explains that the streets where Jews once lived have since been renamed. Lanzmann asks Filipowicz whether the Jews knew their fate when they were deported from Wlodawa, and he replies that they could not have known exactly what would befall them. Even before the war, though, he says Jews knew they were doomed. They felt it. When Lanzmann asks whether the man is sad about what happened to the Jews, he replies that every faithful Christian thinks that every human being deserves to live. Lanzmann asks whether he got along with the Jews, and he replies that he did and that the non-Jewish residents of Wlodawa did their best to help Jews when there was a ghetto in the town. He explains that it was a transit ghetto, full of Jews from France and Vienna on their way to Sobibor. The ghetto lasted two years, and was totally closed. The ghetto was overseen by German, Polish, Ukrainian, and Jewish police forces. Before the war, the population of Wlodawa was 7500, of whom 4000 were Jews. Shots of the group of Polish men, some of them speak as well. 01:06:10 SOB 46 The man continues on responding to Lanzmann’s questions about a synagogue in Wlodawa. A woman agrees that there was one, and that it was very beautiful. When Poland was still ruled by tsars, the synagogue existed-- it's even older than the Catholic church. Lanzmann asks what has become of the synagogue now that there are no Jews, and they reply that there is still a Jewish family in the town, and that the synagogue has been returned to the state. Lanzmann asks how this family survived the Holocaust, and the gentleman replies that they hid in the forest. He also talks about several families in which the father is Catholic and the mother is Jewish, and the children are raised Catholic. The man cannot remember the names of these families. Lanzmann asks whether there is a Jewish cemetery in Wlodawa, and there were two. The Nazis destroyed the Jewish cemeteries during the war, and after the war, one was turned into a park, where a few of the tombstones still remain visible. Lanzmann asks whether the Jews living in Wlodawa before the war were rich or poor, and he replies that there were all types, but most were small merchants and artisans who were not rich. Lanzmann asks how he experienced, 'the annihilation of the majority of their town's population,' and how he feels about it now. The man replies that they were scared that they would be the next to be targeted. Lanzmann asks whether he prayed for the Jews during that time, and he replies that of course he did. He could not talk about the subject in church, because Germans often waited outside of the church to conduct raids. A church bell rings in the background. Lanzmann asks why the man thinks this all happened to the Jews in particular. The man replies that Hitler's great-grandfather was Jewish, and that Jews assassinated him, so when Hitler became an adult, he decided to avenge his ancestor. Lanzmann makes an allusion to the story of Jesus Christ's crucifixion, and asks whether that might have anything to do with why the gentleman thinks the Jews were exterminated. The man responds that he is not sure, but he is a believer and that when Christ died, he said his death would be avenged, and that he was killed by Jews. 01:13:50 Lanzmann pulls another man out of the group of onlookers, who has something he wants to say. The man wants to make sure that listeners understand that the extermination of Jews took place not only in Wlodawa, but everywhere in Poland. He continues that the Germans simply wanted to exterminate every race that was not their own, starting with the Jews but eventually the Polish people, too. He says that there were two insurrections in Warsaw, one led by Jews and another by Poles. Lanzmann tries to speak to a woman who doesn’t want to answer his questions. Other men in the group of onlookers respond to Lanzmann, saying that everyone in Wlodawa knows what happened, but what they lived through was very different than the French experience, 'like night and day,' and so they cannot discuss it with Lanzmann because he cannot understand. Lanzmann presses the men to speak further, saying that this is precisely why he (Lanzmann) is here in Wlodawa asking these questions, trying to understand. They tell Lanzmann to visit Majdanek, where there is a memorial and all of the proof of what happened, but will not speak to him further, not even when Lanzmann replies that he has already visited. 01:16:46 SOB 47 Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman and one of the men (identified in the transcript as Mr. Filipowicz) who spoke earlier. He asks her why she had thanked him for still being interested in this history. She replies that the war was a very difficult time, where one could not even go to church, and that thankfully life has returned to its normal rhythm. Lanzmann asks her to elaborate about not being able to go to church, and she replies that one could, but that Germans would often station themselves outside of the church at the end of mass, and would conduct raids there. Lanzmann asks her whether Nazis ever shut Jews in the church, and she says no. She continues that she lives in a small village 30 km from Wlodawa, where there were not many Jews. The Jews in her village dressed differently than Poles before the war, and you could recognize them from the rest of the population, but then they began to dress like everyone else, except for the yellow star. Lanzmann asks the woman and man what they think of the Jewish religion. They say they are not very interested in it. The woman continues, however, explaining that Judaism is the oldest religion and that 'our' ten commandments come from Judaism. Lanzmann asks what they think of Jewish religious dress-- their clothes, their beards, etc. (sounds of a church service in the background). Mr. Filipowicz responds that it is not so different from Christian friars who wear religious dress. They discuss Jewish religious dress further, and then Lanzmann asks whether they found the Jews "harmless people or worrisome people." The man replies that they were fairly harmless, and that the only reproach against the Jews was that they engaged in commerce, meaning that they made a lot of money and did not work as hard as the Polish people farming the land. Lanzmann asks whether Polish people now hold those jobs in commerce, and the man replies that they do not, that the Polish government does it. The man discusses Jewish commerce before the war, saying that many Poles preferred to shop in Jewish stores because if they did not have enough money, the Jewish store owners would give them credit and let them pay later. Lanzmann asks whether the Polish state is as good at commerce as the Jews were, and the woman laughs and replies that she is content with it. Lanzmann asks whether the interviewees considered the Jews to be members of the Polish population, or whether they saw them as outsiders. The man replies that they were commonly seen as "full members of the collective Polish society," and that they did Polish military service and worked among and alongside the Polish people. Lanzmann then asks them to show him the part of the town that had been the Jewish ghetto. 01:26:18 Lanzmann walks arm-in-arm with Mr. Filipowicz, children follow as they walk down the street, sounds of the church service. 01:27:04 Picture cuts out. 01:28:20 “Coupe” FILM ID 4688 -- SOB 50.51 Wlodowa Filipowicz SOB 50 Inside traveling car, muffled conversation-- Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and a few Wlodawa residents drive to the area of town where the Jewish ghetto was once located. Mr. Filipowicz explains that the first ghetto was created in 1940, and that a second, closed ghetto was created in 1942. Most of the buildings that were there at the time have been destroyed and rebuilt. Lanzmann asks to see houses where Jews live which still stand. They walk to a street where he points out the houses in which Jews once lived. He knows every house which was owned by Jews, though he cannot remember their names. He points out one of the houses, and recollects watching Germans throw three Jews, including an elderly woman, from the second-story balcony. He points out the home of a man named Yenkel, who was killed in Sobibor, as well as the old locations of different Jewish businesses. They walk through streets where Filipowicz says that before the war, every home was Jewish. Lanzmann asks him several times how he knows so much, and how he remembers the old residents of every single home and building in what was one the Jewish ghetto, but he never truly answers. 01:11:22 SOB 51 Lanzmann and Barbara continue to drive around the old Jewish ghetto of Wlodawa as the local resident, Mr. Filipowicz, points out the locations of what were once Jewish homes and businesses. He shows them the old synagogue, and tells a story of when, as kids, he and friends once caught a bird and set it free in the window of the synagogue during a service, 'just as a joke.' The streets still have the same names they had when Jews lived there. As they continue driving, Lanzmann remarks that the entire town center was Jewish homes and businesses, and the man agrees. He explains that most Poles lived further from the center of town. They drive to the old Jewish cemetery, which is now a park. 01:22:14 End FILM ID 4689 -- White 87 SOB 61-64 Gare Voies (Vu+CL) Snowy shots of the train station and railway tracks. 01:14:43 End FILM ID 4690 -- White 88 Sobibor Foret Gare, Chutes SOB 75 Snowy shots of Sobibor forest and railway tracks. SOB 71 01:14:44 End FILM ID 4691 -- Sobibor Bte 88 Foret Gare More mute shots of the snowy forest. 01:07:57 End FILM ID 4692 -- Sobibor Foret Assembled mute high-angle shots of the lush forest at Sobibor, the train station, and railway tracks. 01:03:19 End

    Lettre Just 5 Juin 1942 (audio only)

    Film

    Claude Lanzmann recites the June 5, 1942 letter from Willy Just to Walter Rauff regarding gas vans in Chelmno for the SHOAH film team in May 1983 in Germany. FILM ID 3637 -- Lettre Just, version 1 FILM ID 3638 -- Lettre Just, version 2 FILM ID 4603 -- Lettre Just, 2 versions (more than two versions read by Lanzmann, 19 minutes)

    AJC offices - New York

    AJC offices - New York

    Film

    FILM ID 4600 -- AJC NY 162-168 Claude Lanzmann interviews an American Jewish Committee (AJC) employee at the New York City office. During the interview the employee acts as a guide, taking Lanzmann on a tour of the building housing the AJC, which is comprised of several departments. The guide explains the main functions of the departments they pass: the Public Education and Information Department, the Foreign Affairs Department, the Domestic Affairs Department and the Library. Overall, the AJC is concerned with maintaining the rights and freedoms of Jews and other minorities. Lanzmann comments that the AJC appears to be a very powerful organization. The guide takes Lanzmann to the Fundraising Department of the AJC. The AJC fosters cooperation with other non-Jewish groups for the mutual goal of freedom and security of all people. Lanzmann points out how this focus on human rights aligns with the sign on the front of the building, which reads, "Institute of Human Relations." By helping non-Jews, as well as Jews, the AJC helps all minorities improve their human rights. 03:44 At the time of the interview, the AJC was approaching its 75th anniversary. The AJC developed and expanded at a tremendous pace after the Holocaust. The guide and another woman tell Lanzmann about the AJC records, which include information on antisemitism, AJC's work before and during the creation of the state of Israel, and the resettlement of Holocaust survivors. FILM ID 4601 -- AJC NY 169-172 [Audio is difficult to hear over background noise] The guide takes Lanzmann to AJC's computer room where a monthly and a quarterly magazine are produced. The modernity and efficiency of the AJC facilitates the completion of their important work, including communication with subscribers and members. The guide tells Lanzmann that she came to the United States as a small child before the war and her family perished in Poland. 05:33 In the Wiener Oral History Library, Lanzmann is introduced to the Director, Irma Krantz. Krantz tells Lanzmann how the Oral History division strives to represent as many different aspects of American Jewish life as possible through its recordings. The guide next takes Lanzmann to the Brownstein Library and introduces him to Sima Horowitz, the Chief Librarian. Since its inception in 1939, the library is primarily concerned with contemporary American Jewish issues. A collection of contemporary antisemitic material consists of antisemitic books written in Braille and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" printed in several different languages as recently as 1975. Horowtz shows Lanzmann a book originally printed in 1936 for very young children as a propaganda piece in English by an organization called "The White Power Publications" in the United States. The book had wide circulation throughout the organization and was donated in 1976. The library also contains newspapers, periodicals, and radio addresses from the Middle East and Russia associated with contemporary antisemitism.

    Dov Schilanski (audio only)

    Film

    Dov Shilanksy (1924-2010) was born in Siauliai, Lithuania. He survived the Holocaust and moved to Israel in 1948. He fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Six-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War. He was an Israeli politician and Speaker of the Knesset from 1988 to 1992. This interview was conducted in the Knesset. FILM ID 3618 -- Schilanski Israel 74 FILM ID 3619 -- Schilanski Israel 75 FILM ID 3620 -- Schilanski Israel 76 FILM ID 3621 -- Schilanski Israel 77 FILM ID 3622 -- Schilanski Israel 78

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Mengele Factory Workers

    Film

    Lanzmann talks to German workers and peasants in the present-day Mengele family factory in Günzburg, Germany. The workers are unresponsive, saying things like, "Auschwitz was part good and part bad." Or that "it's all in the past." Most of them only admit to a vague idea of who Josef Mengele was. FILM ID 3887 -- Shoah Sequence Mengele // image + mixage Color sequence prepared by the editing team in June 1985 possibly for television distribution following the identification of Mengele's body on June 6, 1985. Opening shots of Karl Mengele street signs and farm equipment with the Mengele name. Interviews with workers bringing up Josef's name. Pull back from the tower to the town square in Günzburg. FILM ID 3631 -- Mengele Factory Workers 1 -- prise 1,2 (audio only) FILM ID 3632 -- Mengele Factory Workers 2 -- prise 1,2,3,4,5 (audio only) FILM ID 3633 -- Mengele Factory Workers 3 (audio only)

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Albert Ganzenmueller

    Film

    As chief of the German Reichsbahn, Albert Ganzenmüller was responsible for the employment of deportation trains. In July 1942, he wrote a letter to Karl Wolff describing the deportation trains from Warsaw to Malkinia to Treblinka. Claude Lanzmann talks about the letter by Ganzenmueller in a short recording in French. FILM ID 4605 -- Ganzenmueller 1-6 Chemin de Fer

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Malka Goldberg - Warsaw

    Film

    FILM ID 3869 -- Camera Rolls Goldberg 176,177 No clapperboard. Audio operator speaking French and street noise to 1:34. Lanzmann and Corinna Coulmas start by asking Malka Abramson Goldberg about her business, children, and grandchildren. Goldberg then tells them that she was in the Warsaw ghetto, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Ravensbrück, and Malhof before immigrating first to Sweden and then to the city in which the interview takes place (probably Tel Aviv). At Lanzmann's prompting, Goldberg explains that she was part of the resistance, but does not remember specific dates such as when she was arrested or when she arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Malka's husband Jakob helps Goldberg with the timeline of her camp experiences and, after Lanzmann asks whether or not they know the song, Goldberg and the men sing part of the Yiddish resistance song "Undzer shtetl brent!" ("Our Town is Burning!"). After a brief break and more prompting by Lanzmann and Corinna, they sing a bit more of the song. FILM ID 3870 -- Coupe Varsovie Silent shots of street scenes in Israel (probably Tel Aviv). Goldberg and the two men in a shop.

    Israel

    Israel

    Film

    Location filming of the desert landscape, cemeteries, the city of Jerusalem, and life at the seashore in Tel Aviv, Israel for SHOAH. FILM ID 3611 -- Tel Aviv. Bor de Mer. Prieres Dizengov People milling about the seaside in Tel Aviv. Camera pans out to show more people on the beach and cars parked on the grass. Two armed soldiers walk by and smile at the camera. 01:01:38 Man holds clapper indicating camera roll 85. People fishing, children look at the camera filming them. Camera pans over beach and shore. Camera focuses in on a mother talking to her young son, then out over the sea and coast. A man sits by the sea. CUs, families. A group of adults gathers to read. Adults and children look with interest at the camera filming them. 01:14:08 The sun sets while a group of Hasidic men walk down to the seashore and read from the Torah. One man from the group notices they are being filmed, he waves for the filming to stop. Scenes of the sea. Looking out at the sea, the group of men sway as they sing. 01:20:18 A bulldozer at the beach. Night has fallen, and a group of people sit further inland. Some wave at the camera. FILM ID 4722 -- Jerusalem 1-12. Les Remparts. Le Mur. (14:45) Landscapes, including cypress trees, dirt and sand overlooking the water. Church of Mary Magdalene located on the Mt. of Olives. Houses on the hill and stone walls. Cars driving on the road and houses. A boy runs after dogs/cats, and a woman joins him. Stone walls, homes, buildings along the hillside. Dome of the Rock, old city of Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa Mosque. Wall and rocky terrain. Tower of David museum. Roads. FILM ID 4723 -- Jerusalem 13-42. Meah Shearim (24:34) Several men (Hasidic Jews) in black coats with long beards and tallit gather together on wooden benches talking, sunny day. Men walk along the street and then on the sidewalk. 01:03:25 Man pushes stroller through crowded sidewalk. Busy street scenes with pedestrians, buses and cars. “Ban Hapoalim” building, people stand around outside. 01:05:55 Narrow street, people walking around, some carrying packages. Some graffiti in Hebrew on the walls and buildings. 01:13:25:05 Marketplace. FILM ID 4724 -- Jerusalem 43-62. Rues Vides Kippur (18:03) Street scenes. Cars parking along residential side roads. 01:02:38 Pedestrians. Residential neighborhood filmed from a moving vehicle, moving into a commercial area with traffic lights and stores. Return to neighborhood streets, pedestrians walking along the street. There are banners in Hebrew hanging between the buildings and families along the sidewalk. More street scenes. FILM ID 4725 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 1-7. Ceremonie FILM ID 4726 -- Jerusalem Cimetiere 8. Calme FILM ID 4727 -- Cimetierre + Kfar Iona FILM ID 4728 -- Kippur 1-30. Shabbat (33:30) Temple mount and Dome of the Rock. Western Wall. 01:02:48 A close up of praying at the Western Wall. Wooden arc, men sitting on benches and in chairs talking and praying. Tables covered with burgundy velvet covers with gold Jewish stars. Shots alternamte between the Dome of the Rock and the Western Wall. 01:12:28:06 Israeli soldier stands on the wall. Dome of the Rock is in the distance. Men pray, soldiers on the radio. 01:25:51 Large group of teens dancing, arms around shoulders, swaying in one long line. They form a circle while other people are praying. Then they circle forms into one big cluster. FILM ID 4729 -- Kippur 50-58. 65-83. (15:59) At the Western Wall, men are praying. Men stand by a wooden arc with tables and chairs. Men are dressed casually and formally. Dome of the Rock and Israeli soldier. Women praying. Soldiers. Dusk begins and night falls. Crowds at the Western Wall. FILM ID 4730 -- Kippur 59-64. 31-34. Fin Kippur 35-49. 84. Veille Kippur. (20:52) Men praying at the Western Wall, closing in on their faces devoutly praying. 01:04:34 Young men in a large circle swaying at Western Wall. Men leaving, shaking hands with one another. Older Hasidic man with long beard departing. 01:08:39 Nighttime at Dome of the Rock. Men in a circle at the wall. Switches back to daytime at Western Wall. 01:17:01 Two soldiers at the black booth before the Western Wall. Dome of the Rock and Western Wall. FILM ID 4731 -- Paysages Divers I / orangeraie, champ de coton, el arch (10:04) Highway. Pan to a field of orange trees. Small plane flying over. Field of white flowers. 01:05:30 Israeli soldier on the road. People gathered. Donkeys and carts, children. 01:08:08 Soldiers getting into a truck. FILM ID 4732 -- Paysages Divers II / orthodoxe Kfar Iona Lochamei Hage. FILM ID 4733 -- Plans Muets Journaux Petits Annonces 242, 243, 244 (24:57) Newspaper headlines/articles, CUs, silent. 01:01:43 Prag, Freitag, Den 1. Dezember 1944 “Organ des altestenrates der juden”. “Regierungsverordnung” vom 13. Oktober 1944. Advertisement for “A. Schafer” with a Jewish star on either side of the name. Title of the paper “Judische Rundschau”. Panning to other ads “Palestine & Orient Lloyd”. 01:07:36 “Aus der Rechtsprechung”. “Palestine Agricultural Settlement Association, Ltd. Jerusalem." More advertisements: “Haifa die Perle von Palastina” Savoy Hotel. “Judische Rundschau” Berlin. Article: “Selbstvertrauen trotz Sorgen” 5 March 1937. Headline “Probleme der judischen Umsiedlung” 1 December 1939. FILM ID 4734 -- Deserts / Sinai. Judee. Negev. Mitspe Ramon / Bte. 60,61,63,64 (7:08) Construction vehicles and green fields in the distance. Road through the desert. 01:03:56 Roads from inside a vehicle. Slate: “Bob 47” on the dashboard. Hills and a small town in the distance. FILM ID 4735 -- Deserts / dont il existe des retirages couleurs

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Bronislaw Falborski

    Film

    Bronislaw Falborski witnessed the deportation of Jews from Kolo to Chelmno. He talks about the speed of the gas vans. This interview takes place in Falborski’s home in Poland and was recorded during Lanzmann’s second trip to Poland. FILM ID 3809 -- Camera Rolls 1-5 CR 1;2;3 (Rue à Midevits) CU, framed painting of Mary nursing baby Jesus on the wall. Mr. Falborski was the private driver for May from the autumn of 1941 to 1942. May lived in the house of a former forest warden, named Gay, in a town near Kolo. Falborski also lived in the house of an evicted forest warden. The wardens had been evicted because they were Polish. Falborski did not know German that well when he first began working for May, but after one year they could communicate without gestures. May supervised the German forest wardens in the area. Lanzmann asks when Falborski first learned of the exterminations in Chelmno. CR 4 (Tyzem) Falborski was almost shot the first time he went to Chelmno. He had parked the car in the forest to let May out, and decided to follow May into the woods. About 100 meters along the forest path he was stopped by a Gestapo who demanded to know what Falborski was doing in the woods. The Gestapo had his gun aimed at Falborski when May came back and stopped Falborski from being shot. He moved the car back to a forest warden's house. The state employee who lived there told Falborski that Jews were being exterminated in the forest. Falborski did not discuss this with May, but with May's wife. Falborski claims he cannot say anything bad about May, as was always treated well by him. Falborski went to the forest many times, as well as the village of Chelmno. Falborski describes how the Polish citizens of Chelmno had been evicted and the castle became the designated camp for the Jews. CR5 (Tyzem) Gas vans would leave the castle at the same time empty vans from the forest would return. Typically, two people sat in the front of the grey vans. They drove the vans slowly, at a calculated speed, so that the people inside would die before the van reached the forest. Once, a forest warden named Sendjak told Farboski a van had skidded. The Jewish prisoners fell out of the back of the van, still alive, and started to crawl on the ground. One of the Gestapo drivers shot them with his revolver. They Gestapo men then made the Jews of the Sonderkommando put the bodies back in the van and took them to be dumped in the clearing. The mass graves were roughly 500 to 700 meters from the road. Though he never went near the graves, Falborski and May could smell the odor of the decaying bodies. This was the only time the two men referred to the Jews. FILM ID 3810 -- Camera Roll 6 CR6 Falborski knew what was happening in Chelmno because a young man in the Gestapo told him. The man told Falborski that Jews entering the camp were told they had to go through a disinfection process. Before they were taken away, their jewelry and gold teeth were forcibly removed. Finally, they were forced into the vans and taken to the forest. In Kolo, the city where Falborski lived, the Jews were grouped together at the synagogue and then chased by Germans to the train station which took them to Chelmno.

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Brasserie Munich - Josef Oberhauser

    Film

    Josef Oberhauser was a SS officer in Belzec. He was interviewed in a Munich beer hall and refuses to answer many of Lanzmann's questions. Oberhauser answers Lanzmann's questions regarding the beer he sells, but refuses to respond to questions concerning his days as an SS officer in Belzec. Lanzmann attempts to interview former SS officer Mr. Oberhauser in the beer hall where he works. Trying to warm Oberhauser up to an interview, Lanzmann asks Oberhauser how many liters of beer he sells a day. After asking several times, Oberhauser answers that he sells 450 liters a day. He tells Lanzmann that he has worked in the beer house for twenty years, and that the best beer comes from the tap. When Lanzmann asks if he remembers Belzec, Oberhauser becomes quiet. He does not respond when Lanzmann asks further probing questions, or when Lanzmann requests to arrange an interview at another location. FILM ID 4609 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser. Belzec / CHUTES People in town square, Max-Joseph-Platz in Munich. Restaurant-- Franziskaner Poststüberl. Inside restaurant, full of people on a regular business day. The camera crew films the beer hall staff, including Oberhauser who refuses to speak. (05:47) Photograph of SS officer Christian Wirth, the first commandant of Belzec (Oberhauser's superior), in Nazi uniform is held in front of the camera. FILM ID 4610 -- Brasserie Munich 1-7 Oberhauser / Belzec Breme 1-9 / DOUBLES EXT, Franziskaner Poststüberl. Patrons dine. Kitchen staff.

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Camionnette (minibus used for hidden camera interviews)

    Film

    Minibus with equipment for hidden camera interviews, staged in the suburbs of Paris at Saint Cloud, near the LTC Studio where the final film's editing was done, in May 1983. This could have been staged in France rather late in the film's production to illustrate a sequence about the hidden camera interviews for the final film (note the closeups of the minibus and the "home" of a perpetrator -- the zoom into a specific window, for instance). FILM ID 3452 -- Ext. Camionnette / Camera Rolls 1-4-6, 14-26 Several sequences showing exteriors of the red-striped Volkswagen minibus with the equipment for transmitting Lanzmann's hidden camera interviews. The minibus arrives at a residential destination and parks. The driver exits the vehicle and enters the back using a sliding side door. The camera zooms in on several residences, homes, and apartments. 01:04:48 Collision with fast-moving lorry. FILM ID 3665 -- Camion en planque Several takes of the minibus. This reel was probably filmed in Germany to correspond to the interview with Stier, RG-60.5064

    Auschwitz

    Auschwitz

    Film

    Location filming of Auschwitz and Birkenau in winter for SHOAH. FILM ID 3451 -- Auschwitz 48D-64B / Birkenau int. camp (white label 69) -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:25 Museum sign on Auschwitz-Birkenau grounds in four languages regarding the cremating pits, mass transports, and extermination. WS sign, remains of crematorium in BG, guard-tower. WS building remains, sign regarding the destruction of the crematorium by the Sonderkommando in 1944. Pan of snow-covered camp grounds. Quick shot of Lanzmann with fur hat standing in the field. CU, reeds, barbed wire fence, building remains, pan. 01:05:13 HAS of the barracks, panning along the barbed wire fence. 01:07:32 Railway going to main entrance. 01:08:20 Quick view of Lanzmann in a coat and fur hat. Pan of snow-covered ruins, pit, ground, pan up to barbed-wire fence and building rubble. "Krematorium II" sign. More pans of the camp grounds, lake, fence, guard tower. FILM ID 3612 -- Majdanek R.1 / Auschwitz Bte. 21.22 / Chutes 13 (white label 13/14) -- 01:00:12 to 01:11:13 Large cross decorated with a wreath on a roadside. Shots of snow-covered fields in Poland from a moving vehicle. CR22 Slow pan of homes in a village in Poland in late winter (near Oswiecem?). Local Poles stand in the doorway of a building with horse-drawn carriages. More views of housing in the town. 01:05:47 LS, slow pan of grassy fields. Muddy road. CU, tall wooden pillar with a cross at the top. More housing in town, locals, dirt roads, religious statues. Church. Snow-covered field. FILM ID 4698 -- White 41.42 Birkenau Canada Pet Ferme Cendres Camp surrounded by posts. LS, Birkenau surrounded by green fields. Fog everywhere. (2:58) Large piles of coal, with train tracks running beside. (4:10) A horse drawn cart stops next to the piles of coal. (4:37) Entryway of a courtyard, train tracks. (5:00) Birkenau entrance. (5:28) Fields separated by short posts. Small guard towers. (7:12) A perimeter fence with lamps. Barbed wire runs across the top of the fence. (7:52) A horse drawn cart stops in the field, and a man works beside the horse. (8:13) The camp from outside the perimeter fence, guard tower. (8:48-10:34) Reel break - there is no image. (10:36) Perimeter fence and guard tower. Set of steps leading down into the ground, and brick walls on either side. The underground steps lead to the ruins of a large underground room and leads to a crumbling set of ruins. (14:43) Crumbling ruins in the field. (15:26) Smooth floors in the ruins of a building. (16:52) Crematorium with chimneys, ruins of the camp. (19:22) A long, underground hallway with a platform. (20:04) Camera moves along train tracks towards the entrance. (20:56) Perimeter fences. (21:06) Train tracks beside the fields surrounded by perimeter fences and guard towers. (21:24-26:52) Reel break - picture missing. (26:54) A small pond surrounded by trees. (27:34) Larger body of water with brick walls. (29:10) A bare tree in a field, beside it is a low stone wall, and countless old spoons, forks, and a bowl. FILM ID 4699 -- White 43.44 Birkenau Voies-Maquette Chutes (14:44) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. (0:53) Train tracks. (2:27) Claude stands on a road next to the train tracks and walks alongside the tracks. (5:15) Overgrown tracks. Tracks with perimeter fence fields on either side. Birkenau from a distance. (6:46) Train tracks with power lines. A train goes by. (8:13) Tower beside the train tracks. (8:50) Empty train tracks with railway cars on the side. A town is off to the left. (10:23) From above, train tracks with perimeter fences, guard towers, and fields on either side. A group of people walk beside the fence on the left. (11:26) The steam of a train engine. (11:52) "Model Krematorium II” with figurines, close-ups. FILM ID 4700 -- White 45 Valises (08:00) CUs luggage: “Friedrich Neumann. 1890. CF97” “Carl Israel Hafner. Wien I. Biberstr. 14” “Ernst Morgenstern. 7688.” A pile of empty baskets. More luggage: “Marta Sa. Schlesinger, 187” “AAw490. Jng Aussenerg Richard. XVIII - Schlickstrasse 34” “S.L. Steinberg Ludwig” “1018 Tekla Placzek” “A.Demiranda. 9.11.92. Holland” “Bernh Israel Aronsohn. Hamberg. Kielortallee 22. Evak.NR.1849” “Dr.K.Fleischmann. Arzt” Pan over the suitcases.(00:02:46) Different suitcases: "Sidonie Sara. Fuchs. Wien. Yiylzŭsg.” “Klein. Peter. 942. AU 1003.” “Stefan Gross. Mahr Ostrau. 854.” “Z591. Popper Hugo. 28.12.1874.” “Hans Fried Leipnik. 1540.” “Meyer. J. 05377” “Adele Sara. Wien, II Eilienbrunng” “Helga Tichauer-Cohn. Tt.Nr.1613” Suitcase with crossed out writing: “Issac Querido. 16-9-04. Holland” and replaced in red with: “Catharina Querido - 8-12-04” Another suitcase, “Jakob Wenger Litzmannstadt.” “Olto Israel Schönhof. Gel: 25.8.70 Offenbach a/m. keñOrt: Offenbach A/m. KeñN: A.oo513” Camera pans out showing a pile of suitcases. More steady shots. (00:06:36) “Singer Leon. 1.3.84” “Berta Wachsmann” "Dr.Kurt Weiluner” “Klara Sara Goldstein” (00:07:06) CU, “Maria Karfka. Prag XIII-833” “Transport No. Berta Sara Rosenthal. Berline Chbg. Uhlandstr. 194” Pan out, and CU, “Sal. Freitag. 18.7.97. Holland. (00:07:40) End. FILM ID 4701 -- White 46 Archives. Ville. Chutes (13:41) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 41” “Auschwitz Archives” Two black and white photographs of Nazis - on the left: “Beuermann Heinrich [Oświęcim ]” and on the right: “Danilowitz Otto, SS - Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” More photos - on the left: “Brong Uvar, kz. Oświęcim.” On the right: “Hagel Jozef, SS -Sturmführer [Oświęcim.]” Next: “Münk, aufseher Birkenau,” [Overseer of Birkenau.] (0.53) A black and white photo of a Nazi leading a horse. (1.05) Headshot of a man in a suit. (1.22) Crematorium. (2.11) A crematorium under construction. (2.26) Courtyard with partial gallows in the center. (2.56) Clapperboard: “Pologne 2 Hiver Bobine 40” “Auschwitz Archives” (3.04) Black and white photos of prisoners corralled into a line by soldiers next to a railway tracks. (3.17) Railcars with German soldiers. (3.29) Several black and white photos of men staring directly into the camera in front of train cars. One man has an armband wrapped around his sleeve. (4.10) Women and children by the railcar with star badges. (5.19) More prisoners with star badges. (6.55) Piles in front of a train. (7.09) Someone walks away from the camera carrying a large item. Wrapped items at their feet. (7.24) Bags strewn across the ground in front of a train. (7.31) People stand in front of houses, a cart pulled by two horses on the right. Germans stand in a low ditch between buildings. (7.54) Three photos of children. (8.05) Four malnourished children. (8.35) Soldiers burning bodies. (8.55) A telegram of the secret police, written on April 9, 1944 and received April 11, 1944. (9.45) City of Oswiecem, Poland - street with colorful buildings and a church steeple in the background. Local Polish people walk around. FILM ID 4702 -- White 66 Auschwitz 32-43 Gare Vieille Rampe (23:37) CR AUS 32. Railcar tracks with empty train cars. Pan to active platforms of the Oswiecim station. Clock indicates 1:23pm. Train arrives in station, drops off passengers and picks up others. Signs, “Katowice prezez Mysłowice” “Peron 3. Tor 9” “Peron 3. Tor 5” “do wyjscia” Train conductor hangs out the window and checks the time. "AUS 33" Crew member taps the boom mic with the take number. Watch tower for the railway. Man walks across the bridge. Train arrives. Lanzmann in a hat signals. He is with men in uniform. CU of incoming train. CR 34. INT, tower. Tracks. Man in the tower. (00:09:17) "AUS 36" More tracks. Zoom in to entrance to Auschwitz through the fog. CU of the tracks next to Auschwitz. "AUS 42" Stationary train carts. "AUS 43" Muddy road. Tracks. CU, the entrance to Auschwitz. (00:15:13) Back at the first active railway station, local passengers move about. Pan of the tracks. A train pulls through a station. CU, entrance to Auschwitz. Quick shots of Lanzmann. Another moving train. "AUS 38" "AUS 39" The tracks end at Auschwitz. (00:22:45) CU, carriage cars on the tracks. "AUS 47" FILM ID 4703 -- White 67 Auschwitz 15-31E / Blocs 10.11 Ch. Gaz (23:26) Path at Auschwitz with perimeter fences on either side. The path leads to a guard tower. Snow on the barbed wire fence. “Blok Smierci” plaque above the door at Block 11. Memorial for the execution wall at Block 11, with flowers hanging from it and on the ground in front of it. There is a flag flying on the opposite side of the courtyard. Closer shots of the memorial. (9:17) Dimly lit INTs, gas chamber with barred window close to the ceiling.The number “13” in blue above a doorway. The room is small. Stretcher with a hole in it is leaning against the wall. There are striped clothes laid next to the stretcher. (13:25) A room with a long table with a white table cloth. There are pieces of paper laid out on the table. (15:11) EXTs, barracks. (17:00-18:23) Reel change, there is no image. Open air grates in the courtyard. Inside them are barred windows. The room with the blue 13 on the doorway. Dimly lit INTs, 4 small crematoriums on the wall. A square chimney in the ground, surrounded by snow. (22:14) HAS, visitors to the Auschwitz memorial walk out of the gas chamber with the large chimney attached to it. FILM ID 4704 -- White 68 Auschwitz 44A-46.48 / Musee (08:37) CU of suitcases within the museum. Some names are legible: “Edith Weisz” “Paula Furth” “Minska, Hanna” “Kind Weissbrod” “Singer, Leon” “Berta Wachmann” “Dr.Kurt WieLuner”. A pile of baskets are mixed in with the suitcases. More shots of the suitcases: “ Hajek, Franz” “Ludwig Israel Baruch” “Levi” CU of a suitcase with a transport number and a faded name. (00:03:54) A large pile of shoes behind glass. "AUS 34" "AUS 36" Large piles of victims' property: crutches, prosthetic legs, and shoes. "AUS 45" Pots, bowls and dishes. Toothbrushes. Hairbrushes. Other objects.

    Pery Broad

    Pery Broad

    Film

    Pery Broad spent two years as a guard in Auschwitz Birkenau. Broad voluntarily wrote a report of his activities whilst working for the British as a translator in a POW camp after the war. The Broad Report corroborates extermination installations and the burning of corpses. This interview was filmed in 1979 with a hidden camera, known as a Paluche, which caught fire. FILM ID 3438 -- Camera Rolls 1A -- 02:00:18 to 02:12:29 Lanzmann and Broad begin the interview by discussing the recently presented television miniseries, Holocaust. Broad states that he can face the past, but cannot dominate it. FILM ID 3439 -- Camera Rolls 2A,3A,4A -- 03:00:12 to 03:26:09 Roll 2A The Holocaust would not have been possible were it not for the collaboration of several European countries. Broad expands on this by mentioning the train cars that took Jews to the camps always left the camps empty, implying that ordinary people who witnessed these events knew what was going on. Broad claims he cannot comprehend racial discrimination and anti-Semitism. 03:15:04 Roll 3A Broad refuses on principle to participate in interviews for television programs like the BBC, or for books, regarding the Holocaust. 03:19:17 Roll 4A Lanzmann and Broad discuss the report Broad wrote, specifically the atmosphere of the camp described in the report. FILM ID 3441 -- Camera Rolls 5,6,7 -- 05:00:13 to 05:25:14 Roll 5 Citizens of the town of Auschwitz knew what was occurring in the nearby camps. Lanzmann wants Broad's permission to ask specific questions and to record them with a tape recorder. Broad is visibly uncomfortable and asks that Lanzmann first ask the question without the recorder. Lanzmann asks Broad if he remembers a Jewish Kapo named Jakubowitz, in Block 11 of Auschwitz. Broad remembers he was a boxer who was responsible for taking care of the dead bodies after executions, and physically man-handled prisoners soon to be executed. He describes him as a "very big man," and "primitive." Broad claims to have seen only two or three executions in Block 11, because he worked mostly in Birkenau at the Zigeunerlager, the portion of the camp designated for Roma. Broad draws an aerial view of the camp for Lanzmann, showing the crematoria, Roma section and women's camp. It was difficult for the authorities of Auschwitz-Birkenau to identify Roma families as they went by nicknames. 05:10:01 Roll 6 Broad began working in Birkenau in 1943, after working in Auschwitz. He attempted to leave Auschwitz several times. He tried to leave for the front but was denied because his eye sight was bad. He went back to the main part of the camp and never returned to the Roma camp. 05:13:37 Roll 7 Lanzmann states that testimonies of people who worked at the camps, as opposed to prisoners, give a more complete geographical and topographical account of the layout of the camps. Broad mentions the aerial image of Auschwitz taken by Americans during the Holocaust as well as the map he drew in 1945. Both are available to the public. Broad states that the prisoners never exhibited any violence prior to their gassing as they were too emotionally and physically tormented by that point. In order to become an interpreter for the Reich Main Security Office, Broad had to work for the SS in Auschwitz. He was depressed and very ill there, claiming he lost all interest in life. He was twenty-one years old. FILM ID 3442 -- Camera Rolls 8-11 -- 06:02:01 to 06:18:38 Roll 8 Broad describes a meeting his aunt arranged with a Mr. Baumert, a member of the Nazi party paramilitary. Baumert proposed that Broad go to Stuttgart to become an SD officer. Broad refused the offer. Baumert told Broad that nobody was being killed in Auschwitz, that his friend Höss would have told him so. Broad states that Baumert was fully aware of what was going on, but did not want to admit it. During this meeting, Baumert told Broad that he had received negative reports on Broad. The reports regarded his perceived Bolshevik activities while a student and later at Auschwitz. However, nothing ever came of the negative reports, Broad thinks due to the level of respect his aunt had within the Nazi party. Broad's aunt knew Hitler through her father, who was a professor in Berlin and a painter. Lanzmann asks Broad how the two transports of Czech families from the Theresienstadt camp behaved when they were led to the gas chambers in Auschwitz. 06:11:26 Roll 9 Broad is unable to corroborate the extreme violence the SS guards placed on the Czech families before they were gassed. Broad talks about a story he heard during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. 06:14:45 Rolls 10-11 When the escapees from Auschwitz told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. Broad compares this disbelief to the behavior of the Hungarian prisoners at Auschwitz, explaining that their disbelief at their situation caused them not to react violently when let to the gas chambers. Broad believes the prisoners could have escaped easily if 2000 of them had rushed the fence. He claims there was no barbed wire on the fences and that they were not electrified. FILM ID 3437 -- Camera Rolls 1,2,1A,2A -- Rushes -- 01:00:09 to 01:31:10 Roll 1 Interiors of the minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. Two technicians monitor the video and audio transmission. The picture goes in and out. Broad speaks in English about prisoners of Auschwitz and the ability to escape (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11). You can also hear the camera crew in the van in French. 01:05:38 Roll 2 Again from inside the minibus with the technicians speaking in French. The picture goes in and out. Broad talks about a story he heard of during the war, in which Goebbels gave an order to release two or three prisoners from Auschwitz. When they told of the gassing and extermination taking place in the camp, it was so incredible that no one believed them. Goebbels was spared from having to contradict the news as no one believed it. (corresponds to Camera Rolls 10-11) 01:11:13 From inside the minibus, a crew member introduces Roll 1(1A?). He says something like "trying to tune into Perry Broad, we are interested in what he has to say. We will choose what Claude is interested in. There is no image, we only have the rushes." Broad claims he only entered the crematoria at Birkenau after it was shut down. He can describe the crematoria in detail because he had a friend who worked at the building administration for the camp. Plans of the camp, including the gas chambers, were publicly available. The crematorium looked like a factory. Lanzmann and Broad discuss the layout of the different crematoria. Broad describes an instance when a Sonderkommando said to a guard "give me one bread and I'll slaughter a hundred Jews." 01:22:27 From inside the minibus, the man on the left says "Perry Broad 2" as he uses the clapper (Roll 2A?). Broad shows Lanzmann the sentence leveled against him in the aftermath of the Holocaust. He describes a witness at his trial who overheard a conversation Broad had with a woman who had just arrived at the camp. When she asked if they were going to be murdered he told her not to believe the stories the inmates told. This account proved Broad's presence at the ramp during the selection process. Lanzmann adds that the Kanada Kommando, the Jewish inmates in charge of collecting victim's belongings, said the same thing to other prisoners about to be murdered. FILM ID 3440 -- Camera Rolls 3,4 -- Camion Exterior -- 04:00:10 to 04:03:10 Exteriors of the red and white Volkswagen minibus used to record the hidden camera interview with Pery Broad. The minibus is parked on Eugen-Langen Str. CUs, antenna. MS, apartment complex. Another shot of the exterior of the van and antenna. FILM ID 3443 -- Camera Rolls 11-13A -- Int. Camion Broad -- 07:00:13 to 07:10:56 Views of an apartment balcony from a small window inside the minibus. A man (Broad?) is on the balcony. Zoom back to see inside the back of the minibus with equipment and crew recording the hidden camera interview. Broad can seen on the two video monitors in black and white. Zoom back to the outside through the window. 07:04:44 New roll shows the technicians inside the minibus, with sound. 07:08:14 Another roll from inside the minibus, zooming out the window to the balcony, no sound. --- The following reels contain audio only. --- FILM ID 3667 -- Broad 1 -- see picture above in FV3438 (Camera Roll 1A) and FV3439 (Camera Roll 2A). FILM ID 3668 -- Broad 2 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Rolls 2A,3A) (FV3439). This audio roll begins with a some minutes of non-interview related chatter. FILM ID 3669 -- Broad 3 -- see picture above in FV3439 (Camera Roll 4A) and FV3441 (Camera Roll 5) FILM ID 3670 -- Broad 4 -- see picture above in FV3441 (Camera Rolls 6,7) FILM ID 3671 -- Broad 5 -- see picture above in FV3442 (Camera Rolls 8-11) FILM ID 3682 -- Broad 16 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 1,1A) FILM ID 3683 -- Broad 17 -- see picture above in FV3437 (Camera Roll 2A) FILM ID 3672 -- Broad 6 Lanzmann asks if the reason Broad did not give names in his report was out of solidarity with the perpetrators. Broad dismisses this idea, claiming he did not care about the names of the butchers but rather the destiny of the inmates. FILM ID 3673 -- Broad 7 Broad witnessed one gassing while working at Auschwitz. He witnessed unidentified SS men wearing gas masks pour Zyklon B through the roofs of the gas chambers. He saw two or three executions in the courtyard of Block 11, which the Gestapo Grabner and his staff where responsible for. Broad says he was lucky not to have to deal with the prisoners directly. Directly killing so many people was too much even for the SS, and so the gas chambers came into existence. Killings in the courtyard were very different, they were not anonymous and they were deliberately horrific. Broad fainted once from watching an execution in Block 11. FILM ID 3674 -- Broad 8 They take a break to drink a bottle of champagne and discuss work. Lanzmann asks if Broad had any friends in the SS, to which he replies there is no such thing. He had a German friend named Karl Hueges who had to join the SS to avoid being put in a concentration camp himself. He was a Communist who according to Broad hated the SS. Yet after being imprisoned after the war in Ukraine, he became sympathetic to the Nazi regime. FILM ID 3675 -- Broad 9 As an example of what he terms "the grotesque," Broad tells a story about an Jew named Unikower who was arrested by the Soviets after he was liberated from Auschwitz. In response to a question from Lanzmann Broad says he does not remember Yossele [Josef] Rosensaft, the so-called King of Bergen-Belsen. Broad defends his actions at Auschwitz by saying that he did not tell anyone about the activities and statements of Eisenschimmel, the Kapo of the Effektenkammer ["Kanada"], and that Dunia Wasserstrom, a survivor and witness at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial, did not accuse him of murder. He provides another example of a witness who said that Broad disobeyed an order to send Jews to their deaths. When Lanzmann asks him whether anyone spoke against him at the trial Broad says yes but it was proved later that they could not have known him. Lanzmann asks Broad about the Auschwitz Hefte and Broad says he read them in prison and found them quite objective. Broad confirms that there was a brothel in the main camp and states that it was staffed with German prisoners, not Jews, because of the prohibition against race mixing (Rassenschande). He says that the brothel was used by privileged prisoners, not by the SS, "what would Himmler have said?" FILM ID 3676 -- Broad 10 Broad remembers the SS Officer Johann Schwarzhuber, but not specific instances of his cruelty. Broad says that he doesn't have much to tell Lanzmann about Schwarzhuber or about Mengele. He says he remembered Mengele having a good relationship with the Roma and with the Jewish camp doctor and he found the later allegations against Mengele incomprehensible. Lanzmann asks whether Broad was at the selection ramp many times and Broad says that he was not assigned any duties at the ramp. Broad witnessed the selection process at the ramp on numerous occasions, and would even talk with the Jews to learn where they came from. The group takes a break to eat and discuss languages and French literature. FILM ID 3677 -- Broad 11 Still eating dinner, Broad discusses how he did not discover he was a Brazilian citizen until 1936-37. At the outbreak of the war at the age of 21, Broad was happily studying in Berlin. While trying to extend his stay in Germany, he was told to leave since the war was starting. As he had no money, he could not consider that option. One architect raised an argument with Broad after reading his postwar statement implicating the Germans in atrocities. Sound very muffled. Broad, Lanzmann, and Corinna speak French, English and German but the conversation is not discernable. Despite being a Brazilian citizen, Broad had to prepare to be sent to the front. His aunt arranged for Broad to sit for an exam to become a translator, after which he received an offer from the SS. FILM ID 3678 -- Broad 12 Broad began his military training in Finland and then Greece. He describes how he was an unfit soldier and a failure in Nazi eyes. Humorously, he describes his physique to have been like a spider. Deemed unsuitable for service, he was sent to work at Auschwitz, where he claims he had no idea what it was. Lanzmann asks whether Broad believes a man such as SS Officer Christian Wirth, in charge of the nationwide euthanasia program, can be believed when he claimed he had no idea what Sobibor was before he arrived there. Lanzmann seems to imply that he does not believe Broad when he claims he had no idea what Auschwitz was. Broad describes the camp overseer, Wilhelm Boger, as a primitive man who believed in the Nazi agenda and was thus convinced of his innocence for the tortures he committed. FILM ID 3679 -- Broad 13 Broad doubts that his aunt had anything to do with sending him to work at Auschwitz. Her family was very rich and her father had painted Hitler. He arrived at Auschwitz in April 1942. He describes how over a period of a couple months he learned the true nature of Auschwitz. A German Kapo told him more about the camp. He heard rumors of gassings, but none of the guards dared to discuss it. Broad smelled the stench of burning corpses, but didn't think anything of it since people died all the time from illness and were burned. FILM ID 3680 -- Broad 14 Lanzmann and Broad argue about the layout of Block 11. Broad witnessed Ruldof Mildner, head of the political department at Auschwitz, interrogate a boy who had stolen margarine. FILM ID 3681 -- Broad 15 The political department at Block 11 followed protocols. The tried prisoners were interrogated and examined by medical doctors before their executions. Everything was recorded. Before the construction of the four crematoriums, two small farmhouses served as the gassing sites. They discuss the mass graves where the bodies were later dug up by the Kommando 1005 of Vilna, in an effort to destroy evidence of the atrocities committed. Sound of running water. Some French. Nobody speaks for a period of time. They discuss the title of an article (The Tour Guide through Hell) that appeared in "Die Zeit" newspaper about Broad. Broad says that there were things that happened during the Auschwitz trial that could also be termed "grotesque." He says that some members of the Israeli secret service were at the trial but he wasn't sure why or what they meant to accomplish. Lanzmann asks why in his report, Broad does not refer to himself using the word, "Ich/I." Broad says that the numerous investigators may have convinced him to not use the German word "Ich/I" in case he described an event he himself did not witness. Lanzmann comments that often people do not use the word "Ich/I" so they may distance themselves from the reality of what happened. FILM ID 3684 -- Broad 18 Lanzmann and Broad discuss the maximum speed of Broad's new Opel. They read over the documentation about the fine that Broad received as part of the judgment against him. Lanzmann says in English that he feels like Germany hasn't changed much, that his fine could have been imposed by a Nazi. Broad continues to complain about the judgment against him and seems to be paging through a document because he wants to show Lanzmann something in particular. He continues to complain about his legal problems and Lanzmann says he is tired he must go. Broad attempts to get Lanzmann to stay for one more cigarette. Lanzmann agrees and Broad announces that he thinks this will be the last time he talks about Auschwitz. FILM ID 3685 -- Broad 19 Broad tells Lanzmann that he was afraid before the interview that he would again become depressed after recounting the events of Auschwitz. Yet, he admits that Lanzmann showed sensitivity while interviewing him. Lanzmann says he came back to interview Broad after three years and he still does not fully understand him. They end the interview for the day. FILM ID 3686 -- Broad 20 Lanzmann and Broad say their good-byes and Lanzmann departs. Lanzmann and his assistant Corinna Coulmas talk about how the camera was out of action. FILM ID 3687 -- Broad 21 Cinematographer Dominique Chapuis listens and comments in French while watching part of the interview. FILM ID 3688 -- Broad 22 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back. FILM ID 3689 -- Broad 23 Chapuis discusses how they are filming Broad, and then plays part of the interview back.

    Abraham Bomba - Treblinka

    Abraham Bomba - Treblinka

    Film

    Abraham Bomba, a barber from Czestochowa, Poland, is featured prominently in the film Shoah. In the outtakes interview he talks about the treatment the Jews received when the Germans first arrived in his town, deportation to Treblinka, and his work cutting the hair of people right before they entered the gas chambers. Bomba escaped from Treblinka and tried to warn the remaining residents of Czestochowa but they did not believe him. In his memoirs published in 2009, Lanzmann calls Bomba "one of the heroes of my film." FILM ID 3197 -- Camera Rolls #1-3A -- 01:00:06 to 01:33:59 Lanzmann asks Bomba how long he has lived in Israel and how he likes it. Bomba says he was a Zionist when he lived in Czestochowa, Poland before the war. He talks about his family, how hard things were after World War I, and the Jewish community of Czestochowa. When the Germans invaded in 1939 his family tried to flee but they had nowhere to go. He describes the rapid stigmatization and loss of rights suffered by the Jews: mandatory armbands, confiscation of radios and valuables, curfews. In 1941 the ghetto was created. Bomba says that conditions were terrible but that people still had hope. He got married in 1940 and in August 1941 (or 1942?) his wife had a son. FILM ID 3198 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:06 to 02:21:10 On September 22, 1942, the first deportation from Czestochowa took place, and Bomba's brother and his family were deported. Bomba did not know at this time that deportation meant death. Bomba describes the next deportation, when he and his family were selected and loaded onto trains. He says that the Polish people who watched the trains go by laughed at the plight of the Jews. He describes the train journey to Treblinka and arrival at the camp. He was immediately separated from his wife, child, and mother, and assigned to the red (Jewish) commando. FILM ID 3199 -- Camera Rolls #5A,8A,9A -- 03:00:09 to 03:23:23 Camera mostly on Lanzmann with some side views of Bomba. Some segments have no picture. Lanzmann clasps Bomba's hand for most of the interview. Bomba describes arrival at Treblinka and his escape from the camp. Some parts (Camera Rolls 8 and part of 9) are repeated from a different view on Film ID 3200. FILM ID 3200 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 04:00:04 to 04:29:17 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Bomba was selected to work and he describes the strange quiet that descended after the other prisoners entered the gas chamber, and the location where the corpses were burned. The Germans found out that Bomba was a barber and assigned him to cut the hair of the women before they were gassed. Lanzmann asks Bomba how many people escaped from Treblinka and how he decided to try and escape. Bomba describes his escape from the camp after he had been there for three months [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3201 -- Camera Rolls #10-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:34:07 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Bomba and another man manage to return to Czestochowa and tell people there that their relatives who have been sent to Treblinka are dead, but people do not want to believe them. Eventually some of the ghetto residents went to the German commandant, Degenhart [?] and reported Bomba, but Degenhart did not do anything about it [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Lanzmann asks Bomba why he thinks the Jews were so reluctant to believe him about Treblinka. Bomba gives a long answer and says that the Jewish people did not go to the slaughterhouse like sheep, that they did fight back. Bomba talks about the experience of the religious Jews. FILM ID 3202 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:23 This tape contains footage of Bomba in the barber shop. The man in the chair getting his hair cut is Bomba's friend from Czestochowa. There is no dialogue. FILM ID 3203 -- Camera Rolls #16-17 -- 07:00:05 to 07:03:24 Bomba describes the appearance of the gas chamber. He describes cutting the hair of the women and children, who thought that they were about to take showers. FILM ID 3204 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:06 to 08:32:01 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Bomba says that the girlfriend of the Jewish commandant, Galewski, arrived at the gas chamber too and he did not tell her what was about to happen. He says the Polish Jews realized more than those from other parts of Europe what was about to happen to them. Bomba tells the story of a woman who managed to cut the throats of two Capos in the gas chamber. One of them died and the Germans gave him a funeral and he was buried, the only proper grave at Treblinka [CLIP 3 ENDS]. Bomba says that the barbers only cut hair in the gas chamber for a short time before they were moved to the undressing barracks. Bomba says it was hard for him to get used to cutting womens' hair again after the war. FILM ID 3205.1 -- Coupes -- 09:00:00 to 09:04:58 Short, mute clips. Boat at sea. Barbershop. FILM ID 3205.2 -- Coupes 14A,20B,19A Short, mute clips. CUS, Bomba sitting outdoors in Israel. CUs, Bomba and Lanzmann during the face to face interview. Beach. Bomba at barber shop.

    Andre Steiner

    Andre Steiner

    Film

    Andre Steiner, an architect, discusses the Judenrat and resistance activities in Slovakia with Lanzmann. He recounts relations with Rabbi Weissmandel and Gisi Fleischmann in their attempt to rescue Slovak Jews from deportation. FILM ID 3414 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 00:00:22 to 00:33:51 CR1 Andre Steiner was born into an assimilated Czechoslovakian Jewish family. He was an architect in Brno and in 1939 he was imprisoned briefly because his father-in-law was a leader of the Jewish Agency in Czechoslovakia. He and his family left Brno for Bratislava as soon as he was released from prison. In Bratislava he eventually became a part of the Judenrat. He was sent out to determine what types of buildings would be needed at the sites where the Germans intended to build concentration camps for the Jews. Steiner, along with Gisi Fleischmann and Dr. Neumann, were convinced that it would be much better for the Jews if they were able to stay in Slovakia, even in camps, rather than be deported to Poland or anywhere else. 00:11:28 CR2 The Slovak government demanded that the work camps be self-supporting within three months. Because of his connections and his position as an architect, Steiner managed to get work with the Slovak government for himself and for other Jewish architects. Steiner says that a few members of the Judenrat, including himself, Gisi Fleischmann, and Dr. Neumann, met separately and made other plans. They did not like the "yes-man" attitude that prevailed among some of the Judenrat members, including the head, Schepersczy?, and Hochberg, who dealt with Dieter Wisliceny, Eichmann's deputy. Lanzmann asks Steiner to elaborate on this "shadow government" formed by the dissident members of the Judenrat. 00:22:40 CR3 Steiner says that Slovakia still had an independent state and the Slovaks were in charge of the deportations. The first deportation happened in spring 1942 when 999 girls were deported. After the deportations started, Rabbi Weissmandel was able to provide them with some news from Poland, and they learned that most of those deported were not going to work camps in Germany, as had been promised, and that families were separated. FILM ID 3415 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:05 CR4 Weissmandel asked Steiner to try and arrange a kosher kitchen in the camps for the orthodox Jews, which Steiner succeeded in doing. Steiner says he began to feel a "magic influence" from Weissmandel and saw what a beautiful person he was on the inside. Weissmandel chose Steiner to be the go-between with Wisliceny, once Hochberg was thrown in jail by the Slovaks. 00:11:36 CR5 Steiner says that there were around 80,000 Jews in Slovakia when the deportations began. 00:12:49 CR6 The deportations from Slovakia quickly became large-scale and Weissmandel convinced Steiner he must bribe both the Slovaks and the Germans, including Wisliceny, to stop the deportations. Steiner tells of his first meeting with Wisliceny, in which he stood up to the German as Weissmandel advised. Steiner invoked "world Jewry" in order to get Wisliceny to believe that he had the money and power to provide a bribe. Lanzmann makes reference to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the powerful influence that the myth of the Jewish world conspiracy had on the Germans. 00:22:47 CR7 Steiner discusses the source of the bribe money, which provided means of communication between camps and the ability to send medical aid. Steiner confirms that the bribe was successful since no deportations occurred between July and September. In October, three more transports occurred, purportedly due to a false report of the number of Jews in the country, though Weissmandel believed it was because the Jews had not offered more bribe money. After this anomaly, however, deportations ceased completely. FILM ID 3416 -- Camera Rolls #8-14 -- 03:00:08 to 03:33:44 CR8 Weissmandel created a fictitious person named Joseph Rot, based in Switzerland, who represented "world Jewry." 03:00:55 CR9 Steiner and Gisi Fleischmann forged letters from Rot. Steiner says that Weissmandel thought that money would come pouring in to help save the Jews, once it became known what the deportations really meant. In November 1942 Weissmandel burst into Gisi Fleischmann's office, terribly upset, with the first definite news from Poland that deportation meant annihilation. Weissmandel resolved to impart what he had learned of the killings to the world, and wrote to various countries and authorities worldwide. His thinking was that, once the news was known, foreign Jewish money would flow into Eastern Europe to combat the atrocities. 03:11:20 CR10 By bribing Wisliceny they had essentially stopped the deportations from Slovakia (although only 20,000 Jews remained), which encouraged Weissmandel to develop the so-called Europaplan, by which he meant to save the rest of Europe's Jews. Steiner went to Wisliceny and offered two million dollars that they did not have to stop all European deportations. Wisliceny said he had to take the proposition to Himmler, who purportedly said yes to the agreement. Steiner describes Gisi Fleischmann as the person who held the group together. She was a Zionist and very idealistic. 03:22:32 CR11 Steiner speaks of the Europaplan, which was designed to save Jews in France, the Scandinavian countries, and Hungary. Cut early due to telephone ringing. 03:23:34 CR12 Re-take with Steiner discussing the details of the Europaplan. They determined through Weissmandel's "divine arithmetic" that there were around one million Jews left in Europe at this time. 03:24:31 CR13 Re-take with Steiner discussing the Europaplan, fundraising efforts, and negotiations with Wisliceny. Steiner proposed saving 1,000 children who were sent to Theresienstadt from Bialystok, and the failure to raise money to ensure the deal. Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee in Switzerland, said he did not believe that the Germans would hold up their end of the bargain. During the Nuremberg trials, Wisliceny stated the reason the children were not saved because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem objected. 03:30:54 CR14 Lanzmann talks to Steiner about the children's transport to Theresienstadt from Bialystok in winter 1942 and visiting the ghetto with a survivor. FILM ID 3417 -- Camera Rolls #15-17 -- 00:00:23 to 00:34:00 CR15 Lanzmann continues with the story of the children's transport. They were segregated from the rest of the population and given medical care, but after one month they were sent to Auschwitz, where they were gassed upon arrival. Lanzmann confronted Murmelstein about the transport during an earlier interview for the film. This transport has been a mystery that Lanzmann has been trying to solve and now he knows that the children were killed because the money to pay Wisliceny did not come through. Steiner talks about Fleischmann's visit to Hungary. The Hungarian Jews there welcomed her with much pomp and circumstance, a complete contrast from the way the Jews in Slovakia were living. They offered to fundraise and send money, but only through official channels, which was of no use to the Slovak Jews. 00:11:37 CR16 Lanzmann makes a distinction between the aims of the Europaplan, to save all Jews, and the aims of other rescue missions (he mentions Kazstner and Freudiger in Hungary), to pick and choose whom to save. Lanzmann presses Steiner about how he could believe that the Germans, represented by Wisliceny, would have delivered on their end of the Europaplan, if the Slovak Jews had been able to raise the money. Steiner is convinced to this day that the Germans were sincere, and that it was only due to the lack of funds from the "World Jewry" that the plan fell apart. They could not fulfill their side of the deal. 00:22:45 CR17 Even after Wisliceny had left for Greece to organize the deportations of the Greek Jews to Auschwitz, Steiner and company would continue to meet with him during his occasional visits to discuss the plan. Lanzmann asks Steiner what he thinks about the fact that, in September 1944, Weissmandel jumped from a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Weissmandel was so disturbed by this series of events that he subsequently considered himself the murderer of his own family. Steiner, however, agrees with what Weissmandel did, and says that while a family could not have escaped in such a fashion, a single person could. The fact that Weissmandel was so integral to the effort to save the European Jews made his survival doubly important. Even though Steiner became quite close with Weissmandel, they never discussed their families. They were concerned with saving unknown multitudes, not their own relatives. FILM ID 3418 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 00:00:23 to 00:21:37 CR18 Lanzmann asks about Rudolf Vrba, who escaped from Auschwitz and whom Lanzmann interviewed. Vrba claims he gave Weissmandel and the others a description of Auschwitz, from which they made a map and distributed it with a request that the Allies bomb the crematoria and the railroad lines. Steiner talks about Weissmandel's suggestion that they blow up a railroad tunnel. Steiner says the Warsaw Ghetto uprising did not change their minds about positively affecting Jewish fates through means other than armed conflict. 00:11:30 CR19 They talk about the end, when the deportations started again in September 1944. Gisi Fleischmann was sent to Auschwitz, where she died. Steiner joined the partisan assisting in the smuggling of weapons into the camps. Steiner says that according to what he has heard, Gisi Fleischmann was singled out to be the first person in the transport to go into the gas chamber as "special treatment" for her role in the Judenrat. Steiner says that the greatest personal satisfaction he ever got was during his time in the "Rettungsaktion," even if only a small segment of the Slovak Jewry was saved by his actions. Steiner continued work as an architect and became a city planner in Atlanta, Georgia after 1950. FILM ID 3419 -- Camera Rolls #20,21,23 -- 06:00:08 to 06:04:03 Silent CUs of Lanzmann. LS, Steiner's home in Atlanta. Steiner exits and walks through his yard. Mute.

    Hanna Marton

    Hanna Marton

    Film

    Hanna Marton is from Cluj (now Romania), formerly the capital of Transylvania. Both Hanna Marton and her husband were lawyers and Zionists. Marton was aboard the train organized by Rudolf (Rezso) Kasztner, carrying 1684 'privileged' Jews that left Hungary for Germany, eventually bringing them to Bergen-Belsen on 9 July 1944. Claude Lanzmann asks questions in French, which Hanna Marton understands, although she replies in Hebrew. Her answers are translated to French by Lanzmann's female translator, Francine Kaufmann. The transcript is in French only. Cluj was also known as Kolozsvar and Klausenburg. Both Lanzmann and Marton use the names Cluj and Kolozsvar interchangebly in the interview. The interview took place over two days in Mrs. Marton's apartment in Jerusalem. FILM ID 3148 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:00 to 01:29:53 Hanna Marton sits in a chair in front of some bookcases in her home. She holds her husband's diary, a small brown book with the date 1944 embossed on the front, in her lap. Lanzmann clarifies the three names for Cluj: Cluj, Kolozsvar, and Klausenburg. Marton says there were 15,000 Jews in Cluj during the war. She gives some history of the Jewish presence in Cluj, but says that her husband, who died a year and a half ago, knew much more than she does. Both Marton and her husband were Zionists, and she had no contact with the orthodox community. Marton's husband managed to remain working at a high school until June, 1942, when he was sent to the Russian front, returning towards the end of 1943. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Marton's husband told her that the conditions were terrible, especially during the winter. Lanzmann points out that the Jews were fighting in the Hungarian army, which was in turn fighting with the German army. Marton gives more details about how the Jews were treated by the Hungarians. FILM ID 3149 -- Camera Rolls #6-8 -- 02:00:00 to 02:32:45 Marton received letters from her husband at first but then none came for eight months. The retreat of the Hungarian army was chaotic and the Jews received good treatment from some Russian peasants. Marton says that her husband told her there was an instance where Jews and Wehrmacht soldiers slept together in the same bed in the home of some Russian peasants. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Of the 60,000 Jews who were sent to the Russian front only 5,000 returned. Marton says that as far as she recalls, in 1942 she did not know about the fate of the Polish Jews, but that she thinks she was aware by 1944, when the Germans took over Hungary. She thinks that most people knew but they didn't want to believe it, and that they followed the orders of the Germans because of a respect for the law. Marton describes how the Jews were ghettoized in Cluj, in May, 1944. They did not receive instructions from the Judenrat and the entire process was conducted by the Hungarians. FILM ID 3150 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 03:00:00 to 03:33:30 The Jews of Cluj were concentrated in a brickyard and slept outside. The first transport left the brickyard within days, and many people volunteered to be on it. Marton had never heard the name Auschwitz at that point. Lanzmann asks Marton about her relationships with the Danzig and Fischer families. Dr. Fischer was Rudolf [Rezso] Kasztner's father-in-law. Marton did not see Kasztner in Cluj. The members of the Judenrat were the last to arrive in the ghetto; they arrived on May 15. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Marton describes how she first heard from her husband that there was a list of people who would be on a special transport, a transport that would not go to the same destination as the others (the so-called Kasztner Train). She says that she did not want to be part of this special group but her husband convinced her to go. They knew that their fates would be better than that of the Jews who were not on the list. Lanzmann asks Marton what she thought the selection criteria were and says she had no knowledge of a resuce committee in Budapest, that she thought that the list must have been compiled by "our people," the Zionists. Changes were made to the original list for various reasons. Transports were departing regularly and people had realized that the people on these transports would suffer a terrible fate. People made every effort to be a part of the special transport. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Lanzmann lays out the accusations that have been leveled against Kasztner since the end of the war: that Kasztner chose only his own family and other important people to go on the transport, and that he did not warn the people of Cluj and others that they were destined for extermination. FILM ID 3151 -- Camera Rolls #12-14 -- 04:00:00 to 04:32:39 [CLIP 5 BEGINS] Marton says that perhaps if the people of Cluj had been warned that the deportations meant death then a minority of them would have tried to escape. She says that the Jews simply could not escape the ghetto and that these events were happening all across Europe, not just in Hungary. On June 7th the last transport left Cluj for Auschwitz, so that only the 388 people who were assigned to the special transport remained in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Marton how they lived with that, how did they look each other in the eye? Marton says that they were in a state of shock, and further that they did not know at the time exactly what awaited them, where they would go, or that it was certain that they would live. Lanzmann and Marton consult Mr. Marton's diary, which provides some detail about who was on the list. Most of those on the list were Zionists. Marton insists that there were some poor people who were part of the group. Marton tells a story about two people from the train who ended up being imprisoned in the Nojverod (??) ghetto. They met Marton's father and were able to assure him that she was on her way to Palestine. Her father said that now he accepted his fate, knowing that she was safe. The transport reached Budapest and they stayed in the Columbus Kasse until June 30th. By the time they left Budapest the transport had swelled to 1684 people. Lanzmann quotes Kasztner about the makeup of the transport and asks Marton how those in the transport were selected, but Marton says she has no idea. She does know, however, that some people refused their places on the transport. One of these people was Jeno Heltai, a Hungarian writer and a couisn of Thedor Herzl. Lanzmann and Marton discuss the composition of the list. FILM ID 3152 -- Camera Roll #15 -- 05:00:00 to 05:10:36 They continue to discuss the makeup of the list. Marton says that Kasztner's use of the the term "Noah's Ark" to describe the transport was correct, and that there were people from all classes on the list. She says that by the time they were travelling on the transport they knew the fate of the rest of the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz. There was a rumor on the transport that their train was going to Auschwitz. Lanzmann points out that a panic broke out because the passengers confused Auschwitz with another town that they passed through (Auschbitz?). Marton quotes from her husband's diary about this panic. FILM ID 3153 -- Camera Roll #16 -- 06:00:00 to 06:11:27:30 Lanzmann reviews what Marton has told him about two panics that occurred among the members of the Kasztner transport: one when the passengers confused the words Aushbitz (? a town in Czechoslovakia) with Auschwitz, and another panic that occurred in Linz: when the passengers were ordered into showers for disinfection the Polish Jews thought they would be gassed. Marton says that during the journey they did not know where they were being sent. They arrived eventually at Celle and walked to Bergen-Belsen. Marton checks her husband's diary and states the number of people of various age groups who were part of the transport. FILM ID 3154 -- Camera Roll #17 -- 07:00:00 to 07:11:18 [CLIP 6 BEGINS] Marton describes the conditions at Bergen-Belsen. She says that the group was lead by Dr. Fischer and that the Jews participated in holiday observances, lectures, and other activities. She does not remember the Germans entering their barracks and thus they were free to pursue such activities. Dr. Fischer had the contacts with the Germans. The group stayed at Bergen-Belsen from July until December, 1944, although a group of about 300 left for Switzerland in August. FILM ID 3155 -- Camera Rolls #18-19 -- 08:00:00 to 08:21:40 [CLIP 7 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Marton how those Jews who were on the Kasztner transport could live with themselves, knowing that the other Jews of Cluj were killed, and Marton says that they asked themselves why they were chosen. She says further that one should blame the Nazis for instituting such a system, rather than those who were forced by the Nazis to make the decisions about who would live and who would die. Hermann Krumey, Eichmann's second in command, announced to them that those Jews of Hungarian citizenship would leave for Switzerland first. Marton describes crossing the border from Germany, which was dark and gloomy, into the well-lit territory of Switzerland. They spent their first night in St. Gallen. Marton did not return to Cluj until 1968, having made a vow never to go back there, and she regretted it when she did visit in 1968. Marton still keeps in touch with friends from Cluj. In response to a question from Lanzmann Marton says that she still lives with the guilt of being one of those who survived, although her husband, being a fatalist, did not feel guilty. FILM ID 3156 -- Camera Rolls #20-21 -- 09:00:00 to 09:17:10 Marton knew Kazstner for many years before the Holocaust, and she thinks that the Kazstner trial was one of the most terrible things she has seen since coming to Israel. [CLIP 8 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks her whether she thinks that perhaps Kazstner went too far, and Marton says no. Marton says that in Israel she feels like she can never be hunted down again. Lanzmann asks her why she has had tears in eyes throughout the interview. Marton says it is a problem with her eyes but that sometimes she is crying real tears, especially since the death of her husband. The camera focuses on a portrait of Marton's husband. FILM ID 3157 -- Camera Rolls #5A,1A-B,21A-C,19A,9A-B,13A-C,15A,18A-B -- 10:00:00 to 10:14:03 No audio. Panning shots around Marton's living room, including books and art. Marton looks through her husband's diary. Lanzmann sits across from her while she reads. Shots of Lanzmann as he listens to Marton speak (she is not in the frame). Close-ups of Marton and of the diary.

    Hermann Landau

    Hermann Landau

    Film

    Hermann Landau talks about the rescue work of Rabbi Weissmandel, as well as rescue efforts based in Switzerland and the U.S. He describes Weissmandel as an increasingly desperate man who would not hesitate to bribe the Nazis or commit violence if it would help the Jews. FILM ID 3144 -- Camera Rolls #143-146 Lanzmann asks Landau about his first meeting with Rabbi Weissmandel in Switzerland immediately after the war. Weissmandel was enraged with those who did not do more to help the Jews, including Landau, whom he physically attacked when they met. They discuss how Weissmandel jumped from the train bound for Auschwitz, leaving behind his wife and children. While in Switzerland Weissmandel took an entire bottle of sleeping pills and was in a coma for several days. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Landau talks about Weissmandel's dealings with Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann's deputy. Landau reads from one of Weissmandel's passionate letters about what is happening to the Jews, in which he implores people to send money. They discuss Weissmandel's "Europa Plan." Landau says that they knew, from Weissmandel and from other sources, that the Jews were being exterminated, and that they believed with Weissmandel that money could save some Jews. 01:21 Film clapboard with ident. Roll NY 146. Landau says that at first Weissmandel's approach to rescuing the Jews was nonviolent but that by the end of May 1944, when the Hungarian Jews were being deported, he had changed his mind and wanted the tracks leading to Auschwitz bombed [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Landau mentions that he (Landau) was a member of the Judenrat in Belgium until 1942, when he escaped to Switzerland. He says of course it was wrong for the Judenrat to give lists of Jews to the Germans but that's what they did. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Landau reads another letter from Weissmandel. FILM ID 3145 -- Camera Rolls #147,148,150,152 Landau explains the meaning of Kiddush Hashem. Lanzmann asks whether any of the recipients of Weissmandel's letters put in the amount of effort that he was requesting toward the rescue of the Jews. Landau says that a couple called the Sternbuchs, who worked for the Vaad Hatzala, worked day and night on rescue efforts, including on the Sabbath. Landau reads some of the strongly-worded cables the Sternbuchs sent to New York. Landau gives some reasons why the American Jews did not give more money to save the European Jews. He says that many of the organizations involved in relief work did not understand that they must use any means necessary [CLIP 2 ENDS]. 02:22:30 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Landau talks about the history of the Vaad Hatzala. He says it began as an orthodox organization to save the yeshivas in Eastern Europe and they in fact helped get members of many yeshivas in Lithuania visas to Shanghai via Russia. Vaad Hatzala later worked on rescuing all Jews, not just the orthodox. FILM ID 3146 -- Camera Rolls #154-158 Landau describes Weissmandel's work with Gisi Fleischmann, who as a woman and a leftist was altogether different from Weissmandel [CLIP 3 ENDS]. He describes Weissmandel's coded cables, with instructions to bomb certain cities, and the negative answers these demands received when they were transmitted to the Allies. Landau says that after the war Weissmandel still had hope that his wife and children had survived Auschwitz. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] He reads from a letter that was sent to Sternbuch by a relative from Warsaw and deciphers its coded contents for Lanzmann, as an example of how people had to communicate at the time. Landau talks about buying passports for people, which were sent to the ghettos or internment camps [CLIP 4 ENDS]. FILM ID 3147 -- Camera Rolls #149,151,159 -- 04:00:00 to 04:05:40 Mute. Landau praying at synagogue and looking through documents with Lanzmann. CUs of a diary in Hebrew and telegrams.

    Jan Karski

    Jan Karski

    Film

    Jan Karski tells of his capture and torture by the Gestapo when he was a courier for the Polish underground. He also describes his clandestine visit to the Warsaw ghetto and his meeting with Szmul Zygielbojm, six months before Zygelbojm's suicide. See pages 491 - 494 of the English translation of Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare (March 2012) for a description of his interactions with Karski after filming this interview. FILM ID 3133 -- Camera Rolls #1-5 -- 01:00:33 to 01:32:10 Karski tells of his first missions as a courier for the Polish Government in Exile. [No visual until 01:01:56] He was caught by the SS with an incriminating roll of film and beaten severely. The SS soldier told him that he wanted to get in touch with the Polish underground, but Karski did not reveal any information to him. Karski cut both of his wrists and was transported to various hospitals under the supervision of the Gestapo. With help, Karski escaped from a hospital in Warsaw and after a period of recuperation went to Krakow in 1940. In 1942, he resumed his service as a courier and met with major political parties to deliver messages from the delegates of the Polish Government. He explains that the messages were never written down, but were either memorized or on microfilm. Karski was contacted by representatives of the Jewish underground, who he refers to as the Bund leader (Leon Feiner) and the Zionist leader (Bermann), and met with them in a house near but not in the ghetto. In a manner that Karski describes as desperate, the two leaders asked Karski to take messages to London about the extermination of the Jews. Karski was asked to tell the exiled Polish president to contact the Pope. He was also told not to contact non-Polish Jewish leaders in London because they might become too alarmed and "complicate" matters. FILM ID 3134 -- Camera Rolls #7-9 -- 02:00:05 to 02:35:47 The Jewish leaders wanted Karski to go to other government officials with messages. They wanted the Allied governments to publicly announce that they would deal with the problem of the extermination of the Jews and to drop leaflets over the German population, telling them that the Germans would be held responsible. Karski was also asked to take messages to certain Jewish members of the exiled Polish government, including Szmul Zygielbojm and Dr. Schwarzbald of the National Council and Dr. Leon Grossfeld of the Polish Socialist Party. The two representatives made it clear that he was not to relay the message to any non-Polish Jewish leader because they feared that it would fuel anti-Polish propaganda. Karski discusses the frustration of Feiner and Bermann that the Home Army refused to supply Polish Jews with weapons. Lanzmann and Karski discuss whether this proves that these two representatives anticipated the Warsaw ghetto uprising. FILM ID 3135 -- Camera Rolls #11,12,6,11A,32 -- 03:00:04 to 03:07:48 Lanzmann asks Karski how his visit to the ghetto came about. Karski says that it was the Bund leader's idea that if Karski saw the situation with his own eyes, it would strengthen his position when he went to London. Karski says that he and Feiner had no problem entering the ghetto through a tunnel. A brief shot of Karski's wife and then a long shot of Lanzmann with no sound. FILM ID 3136 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 04:00:09 to 04:33:01 In November 1942, Karski visited Belzec disguised as an Estonian auxiliary. His trip was organized by the Bund leader and the Jewish underground. Karski describes the brutal treatment of Jews as they were loaded onto trucks, either to be taken to Sobibor or left to die on the trucks. Karski says that at the time, Belzec seemed to function as a transitional camp. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Karski to go into more detail about what he saw at Belzec [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3137 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 05:00:08 to 05:18:45 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Karski talks about watching Jews being pushed onto the trains at Belzec. He describes what he saw as, "a crowd which had many heads, legs, many arms, many eyes, but it was something like a collective, pulsating, moving, shouting body." Karski and Lanzmann talk about the use of quicklime in the trains again. [CLIP 2 ENDS] No sound from 05:11:20 until 05:14:48. [CLIP 3 BEGINS] Karski left the camp in a state of shock [CLIP 3 ENDS]. FILM ID 3138 -- Camera Rolls #19,19A,20,20A -- 06:00:01 to 06:21:07 Karski talks about his trip to London in late November, focusing on his meeting with Zygielbojm. Zygielbojm was aggressive with Karski and rude to him. Karski felt that the man was "disintegrating minute by minute." FILM ID 3139 -- Camera Rolls #21,21A,22 -- 07:00:07 to 07:17:16 Karski describes how Zygielbojm went into a rage after he delivered his report to him. Camera focused on Lanzmann, no sound. Lanzmann asks Karski if he thinks his report contributed to Zygielbojm's suicide six months later. Karski says that he believes that the total helplessness of the Jews and the indifference of the world to the Jewish situation contributed to Zygielbojm's death. He says that while he never mentions to his students his own experiences in the Warsaw ghetto and in Belzec, he always tells them about Zygielbojm. FILM ID 3140 -- Camera Rolls #23-24 -- 08:00:02 to 08:17:34 Lanzmann asks Karski to whom specifically he reported his news about the destruction of the Jews, and what were the reactions. He tells of being sent to Washington from London and of a meeting with Roosevelt. Karski first told Roosevelt that the Polish nation was depending on him to deliver them from the Germans. Karski said to Roosevelt, "All hope, Mr. President, has been placed by the Polish nation in the hands of Franklin Delano Roosevelt." FILM ID 3141 -- Camera Rolls #25-28 -- 09:00:11 to 09:33:07 Karski says that he told President Roosevelt about Belzec and the desperate situation of the Jews. Roosevelt concentrated his questions and remarks entirely on Poland and did not ask one question about the Jews. Soon after his meeting with the President, Karski received a message from FDR with a list of several people with whom Karski should speak. One of the people that the President recommended was Justice Felix Frankfurter of the Supreme Court, who came to see Karski in the Polish embassy. Frankfurter listened to his report and said that he did not, could not believe Karski's report. Karski was interviewed by Lord Selborne who was in charge of the European underground movement of the British government. Selborne told him that he knew that Karski's story wasn't true, but that it was good for propaganda purposes, just as it was necessary in World War I to use atrocity stories against the Germans. FILM ID 3142 -- Camera Rolls #29-31 -- 10:00:07 to 10:21:00 Karski talks about his interactions with the other people to whom he reported. Lanzmann asks Karski whether the people he gave his report to in Washington could truly grasp what was happening in places like Belzec. Karski replies that he doesn't think so. Karski says that what happened to the Jews is not comparable to any other event in history. FILM ID 3143 -- Camera Rolls #33-35,34,36 -- 11:00:07 to 11:12:30 Karski shows Lanzmann a book with clippings of articles written by him or about him. Karski explains that he could no longer work as a courier or return to Poland because he was too recognizable. Instead, he gave lectures and wrote articles and a book about what was happening to the Jews. In spite of this, Karski says, "Hitler won his war." Close up of Karski as he flips through the pages of the scrapbook.

    Leib Garfunkel - Ghetto Kovno

    Leib Garfunkel - Ghetto Kovno

    Film

    Leib Garfunkel describes the Kovno ghetto, where he was vice-chairman of the Jewish council, and the Aktion of October 1941, during which 9,200 Jews were murdered at the Ninth Fort. This was the first interview that Lanzmann conducted for Shoah and Garfunkel died one week after it was filmed. FILM ID 3125 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:18 to 01:21:29 No sound until 01:05:32. Irena Steinfeldt, Lanzmann's assistant, reads passages from Garfunkel's book. Garfunkel talks about the first meeting between the Kovno Gestapo and representatives of the Jewish population. He tells of the Germans entering Kovno and the two large pogroms where between 5000 and 6000 Jews were killed. Garfunkel speaks about his dealings with Franz Stahlecker, commander of Einsatzgruppe A, who promised that nothing would happen to the Jews once they were concentrated in the ghetto. There is no sound starting at 01:17:41 through the end of the tape. FILM ID 3126 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:10 to 02:22:54 Garfunkel describes the ghettoization process and the difficulties associated with moving 30,000 people into the ghetto. He explains that some Jews gave up their valuables to the Germans and the Lithuanian collaborators because they hoped that they could buy their freedom this way. Part of the dialogue is inaudible. Irena Steinfeldt reads a passage from Garfunkel's book about the creation of the Judenrat and the dramatic election of Dr. Elkhanan Elkes as "Oberjude." FILM ID 3127 -- Camera Rolls #7,8,8/2 -- 03:00:05 to 03:22:24 Steinfeldt reads a moving letter written by Dr. Elkes to two of his children living in England. Garfunkel talks of the danger of having a radio in the ghetto but says that the Jews managed to get news despite their isolation. For example, the Jews in the ghetto knew about the fall of Mussolini, but had to hide their excitement so that the Germans would not become suspicious. Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the distribution of Lebensscheine, [life certificates] to the artisans of the ghetto. The Germans intended to clear the ghetto of all but 5,000 skilled Jews. FILM ID 3128 -- Camera Rolls #9-12 -- 04:00:04 to 04:22:53 Garfunkel describes the hysteria that broke out in the ghetto as Jews, desperate for the Lebensscheine that could potentially spare them from death, stormed the offices of the Jewish Council. The action to separate those who had Lebensscheine from those who did not was canceled at the last moment when a German officer from town arrived with the message to call off the operation. Garfunkel talks about the impossible decision that many Jews in the ghetto faced: who should be saved. He likens the situation to being a "captain on a sinking ship." Steinfeldt reads from Garfunkel's book about the arrival of Helmut Rauca of the Kovno Gestapo, who ordered the entire ghetto population to assemble on the square. The members of the Jewish Council agonized over whether to relay the order to the Jews of the ghetto but ultimately they decided to follow the Germans' orders. Lanzmann questions how the Jews could have followed such an order. Garfunkel says that perhaps some Jews hoped that the Lord would have mercy on them and perform a miracle at the last moment. FILM ID 3129 -- Camera Rolls #13-16,19-20 -- 05:00:10 to 05:29:05 Garfunkel says that a characteristic of Jews is to try to save what can be saved and to maintain hope up until the very last minute. Lanzmann asks whether there were many suicides in the ghetto and Garfunkel answers that there were very few cases. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Irena Steinfeldt to read Garfunkel's description of the big Aktion of October 28-29, 1941 where 9,200 Jews were sent to the Ninth Fort to be killed. All of the residents of the ghetto had to pass by Rauca so he could decide who would live and who would die. In the confusion, some Jews who were chosen by Rauca to go to the "good" side, ended up on the "bad" side [CLIP 1 ENDS]. Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs together. FILM ID 3130 -- Camera Rolls #17-18 -- 06:00:06 to 06:03:52 Garfunkel and his wife sit on a balcony. A brief shot of Lanzmann and Irena Steinfeldt walking away from the camera. FILM ID 3131 -- Camera Roll #21 -- 07:00:04 to 07:04:50 Lanzmann and Garfunkel look at photographs. Close-ups of each photograph. The first two pictures show victims of a pogrom. Dead bodies are scattered on the ground while soldiers and civilians stand around and observe the damage (probably Lietukus Garage massacre). The third picture shows a wide angle view of a pogrom. Garfunkel points out that there are only men in this scene. The next photograph shows members of the Judenrat, including Dr. Elkes. The next picture is of a street scene in the ghetto(?). The following photograph shows people being loaded into a truck after a selection process. In another photograph, Garfunkel points out the Jewish stars sewn to the backs of peoples' coats. The last picture shows members of the Jewish ghetto orchestra. Garfunkel says that Stuffel, one of the members of the orchestra, survived the war and later played in a ghetto survivors' orchestra. FILM ID 3132 -- Camera Roll #21A Medium close-up: the camera is first focused on Lanzmann, then Steinfeldt. Close-up of Steinfeldt as she skims through Garfunkel's book, which is written in Hebrew. The camera pans to a desk with photographs on it. No sound.

    Siegmunt Forst

    Siegmunt Forst

    Film

    Siegmunt Forst escaped Vienna and moved to New York after the war broke out. He talks about his dealings with Rabbi Michael Weissmandel, a Slovakian Jew who tried desperately to tell the world what was happening to the European Jews. Weissmandel begged American Jewish leaders and others for money with which to bribe the Nazis. Lanzmann is interested in the individual and collective choices about whether to resist and/or to rescue, and in this interview and others he clearly views Weissmandel as an important figure. FILM ID 3119 -- Camera Rolls #12,14,15,17 -- 01:00:02 to 01:38:00 Lanzmann asks Forst about when he first met Rabbi Michael Weissmandel. Forst explains that he did some calligraphy for a book that Weissmandel was publishing. He describes Weissmandel at length. Rabbi Weissmandel saw as early as 1938 that Hitler would take over Europe. He met with the Archbishop of Canterbury several times and tried to convince him to use his contacts with the Canadian government to allow Jews to emigrate there. Forst, a Viennese Jew, moved to New York shortly before the war broke out. As events in Europe progressed, letters and appeals for money from Weissmandel were read aloud in Forst's synagogue. [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Forst met Weissmandel again after the war when the rabbi came to Williamsburg. He was a completely broken man. Forst visited Weissmandel, who told him story after story about his experiences, which Forst found overwhelming. As an example, Forst tells the story of when Weissmandel jumped out of a train bound for Auschwitz, leaving his wife and children behind because they refused to come with him. Forst mentions that six months before his deportation Weissmandel publicized plans of Auschwitz that he obtained from two escapees. Forst further describes Weissmandel's manner when he met him after the war. Weissmandel saw Forst as a representative of those people who knew what was happening to the Jews, but simply went about their own business and did nothing. Forst says that Weissmandel halted the transports for many months with promises of money to the Nazis. He says that Weissmandel was the old-fashioned type of Jew who existed by bribing non-Jews and who knew that physical resistance was not possible [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3120 -- Camera Rolls #18,19,21,22 -- 02:00:02 to 02:30:58 Lanzmann asks Forst to return to the fact that Weissmandel saved himself and left his family behind. Forst says that this is the essence of Weissmandel's heroism. His natural drive would have been to go to his death with his family and he did the opposite. Lanzmann and Forst discuss this idea of heroism and its relationship to Judaism. Forst talks about Weissmandel's actions during the war. He mentions his dealings with Wisliceny and efforts which resulted in the delay of transports. Weissmandel thought that bribing the Nazis was the only way to save the Jews. At Lanzmann's urging, Forst revisits the subject of Weissmandel's mental condition after the war. He talks about how Weissmandel would go to the Bowery neighborhood where there were derelicts and people who lived on the street. Forst says, "Everybody who was outside this order attracted him, because he himself was outside this order." He describes a meeting between Weissmandel and Stephen Wise. FILM ID 3121 -- Camera Rolls #23,24,26 -- 03:00:03 to 03:32:04 Forst talks about the meeting between Weissmandel and Steven Wise, president of the World Jewish Congress. Forst says that Weissmandel did not trust assimilationist or "non-authentic" Jews like Wise and Solly Meyer, the representative of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) in Switzerland. Lanzmann and Forst talk about the assimilationist American approach to helping the Jews, which differed greatly from Weissmandel's efforts to bribe the Nazis and save Jews at any cost. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] Lanzmann asks Forst to explain the Europaplan, Weissmandel's plan to save the European Jews with bribes. Weissmandel presented his plan to Dieter Wisliceny who did not think the plan was feasible. Forst mentions the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and the Nazis' obsession with "international Jewry." Weissmandel tried to use the Nazis' fantasies of world Jewish conspiracy against them. Forst turns to Weissmandel's relations with the Catholic Church [CLIP 2 ENDS]. Weissmandel, hoping for help from the Vatican, went to the bishop of Nitra (Weissmandel's hometown), who told him that there is no such thing as innocent Jewish blood because the Jews killed Christ. He also went to the Papal Nuncio but did not receive help from him either. FILM ID 3122 -- Camera Rolls #27-30 -- 04:00:04 to 04:32:22 Forst talks about the Yeshiva of Nitra, which operated underground during the war. Rabbi Weissmandel built another Yeshiva in Mount Kisko, New York after the war and the first students were sixty young survivors. Forst gives a number of examples of how Weissmandel devoted himself to helping people after the war. Forst and Lanzmann talk about the historical reasons for Christianity's enmity toward the Jews. Lanzmann asks about Weissmandel's opinion of Zionism and whether this opinion was changed by the Holocaust. FILM ID 3123 -- Camera Rolls #31,34-38 -- 05:00:06 to 05:29:10 Forst talks about how both Germans and Jews have tried to forget the past. In German, this process of coming to terms with the past is called Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung. Forst says that because Weissmandel was a living reminder of this past, he was unpopular. Forst speculates about why the Jews did not physically resist when facing the gas chamber. He talks about the differences between how religious and non-religious Jews viewed the Holocaust and states, "The religious Jew doesn't question God, he questions man." Forst tells the story of Weissmandel's visits to the Bishop of Nitra and the Papal Nuncio in more detail. FILM ID 3124 -- Camera Rolls #13,16,33 -- 06:00:02 to 06:04:59 Various clips including: Close-ups of Forst, a sketch of Forst (?) hanging on the wall, and photographs of Weissmandel and Forst (?) FILM ID 3823 – Camera Rolls NY 32,33 -- photos Weissmandel [32M,25M] Silent shots of photos of Weissmandel in the home of Forst. Two caricature drawings, CUs. 02:31 Bob. 215 (NY 25). Forst smoking, silent shots.

    Ruth Elias - Theresienstadt, Auschwitz

    Ruth Elias - Theresienstadt, Auschwitz

    Film

    Ruth Elias was a Czech Jew who was sent with her family to Theresienstadt, where she became pregnant. She managed to hide her condition in Auschwitz but was eventually discovered and she and her baby were experimented upon by Mengele. She speaks of these experiences and of her solidarity with other women prisoners. FILM ID 3112 -- Camera Rolls #1-2 -- 01:00:13 to 01:14:46 Ruth Elias tells of her early life growing up in Czechoslovakia. She describes the Germans entering Czechoslovakia in 1939. The foreman of her father's factory immediately seized it from him and the family lost their flat. Her father avoided being sent to Nisko and they lived in hiding in the countryside. On 4 April 1942 they were caught and sent to Theresienstadt, where she was housed in a large room in the Hamburger Kaserne with many other women. FILM ID 3113 -- Camera Rolls #3-4 -- 02:00:13 to 02:10:53 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] Seven days after arrival her entire family was summoned for a transport but she became ill and could not go. Her father insisted that she go, so she married her boyfriend in order to stay. The rest of her family went on the transport and she never saw them again [CLIP 1 ENDS]. FILM ID 3114 -- Camera Rolls #5-9A -- 03:00:12 to 03:33:50 She became a trainee nurse and her husband joined the Ghettowache. Lanzmann asks her about the experience of the elderly in Theresienstadt. She received a card from her father saying that her mother had been shot before his eyes. She was hungry all the time and decided to leave nursing to become a cook so that she could be near food. She and the others sang in the kitchen as they worked. FILM ID 3115 -- Camera Roll #10 -- 04:00:14 to 04:11:15 She demonstrates for Lanzmann one of the songs they used to sing, and accompanies herself on the accordian. [CLIP 2 BEGINS] She says that she was able to live with her husband and another couple and in the summer of 1943 she became pregnant. She tried to have an abortion but it had recently been officially forbidden by the Germans [CLIP 2 ENDS]. FILM ID 3116 -- Camera Rolls #11-12 -- 05:00:06 to 05:19:10 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] She and her husband were deported to Auschwitz in December 1943. She describes the rail journey, arrival at Auschwitz, the work and the food. She and her husband were in the Czech Familienlager. They learned from other prisoners that people were being killed at Auschwitz but they didn't want to believe it. In March 1944 an entire transport of people was removed from the Familienlager and gassed. She talks about the orchestra in Block 6 [CLIP 3 ENDS]. FILM ID 3117 -- Camera Rolls #13-15 -- 06:00:16 to 06:33:43 [CLIP 4 BEGINS] She was transported from the Familienlager to the Frauenlager, and when she was eight months pregnant managed to survive a selection by Mengele by hiding behind other girls. She was sent to Hamburg to work cleaning debris at a bombed oil refinery. When it was discovered that she was pregnant she was sent to Ravensbrueck. She and another pregnant woman were then sent back to Auschwitz [CLIP 4 ENDS] [CLIP 5 BEGINS] but they manage to remove the yellow triangles from their clothing and pose as Czech political prisoners upon their return to the camp. The two pregnant women come to the attention of Mengele. Elias describes Mengele as an attractive and polite man, of whom she was very frightened. Once her baby girl is born he orders that her breasts be bound to prevent her from breastfeeding, so that he can see how long a baby can live without food. Her baby cried and became weaker for several days until Mengele came and told her that the next day he would come for both of them. She knew she was to be gassed [CLIP 5 ENDS]. FILM ID 3118 -- Camera Rolls #16-18 -- 07:00:10 to 07:36:56 [CLIP 6 BEGINS] A woman doctor brought her a needle filled with morphine and told her to inject the baby with it, thinking that if the baby died Elias would be allowed to live. She injected the baby and Mengele sent her on the next transport to forced labor near Leipzig. At this camp she manages to consistently steal bread for herself and the other women. In early 1945 the Lagerfuehrer discovers that she can sing and orders her to organize a variety program in order to take the Germans' minds off the constant Allied bombing. It was during the rehearsals for this program that Ruth met her current husband, Kurt Elias [CLIP 6 ENDS]. [CLIP 7 BEGINS] They were liberated by the Americans and after the war she returned to Czechoslovakia and discoverd that none of her family members survived. She went into a deep depression and spent time in a sanatorium but eventually regained the will to live. In 1965 she located the woman who saved her life, the Jewish doctor who gave her the injection for her child. She remains very close to this woman today. She says that when her first boy was born she panicked when they came to take him away, thinking they would kill him. Nobody understood or wanted to understand what the survivors had been through at that time [CLIP 7 ENDS]. She ends the interview by talking about her love for Israel.

    Łódź

    Łódź

    Film

    Location filming in the Polish cities of Łódź and Częstochowa, including train stations, the ghetto, and landscape. FILM ID 4643 -- White 38 Łódź et Paysage Chutes Bte.38 (04:36) Travelling shots on a cloudy day, a snowy, slushy field rushing by, power lines overhead. (0.53) A man driving a cart pulled by horses in a town. Camera zooms out to reveal a church on the right side of the cart. (1.18) A barn-style house, faded brick sides and a thatched roof. Street in Lodz, a cyclist, and the church. A field, trees next to the church. Man driving a cart full of coal, saying something to the camera person, he looks back several times as he continues down the street. (2.49) A map and a clapperboard with “Pologne 2” on the dashboard of the crew's car. (2.53) Cut to another field. (3.25) A road, snow is piled up on either side of the road. They drive into a town. (4.36) Two tombstones amidst overgrown grass and weeds. Long building in BG. (4.40) Ruins of a building surrounded by trees, snow, and overgrown vegetation. FILM ID 4644 -- White 86 Łódź: Gare et ville et Czestokova Bte.67 (29:08) Clapper board. Arrival/departure board for Łódź Kaliska, one of two main railway stations in the Polish city of Łódź. People converse and look at the schedule. Stairs. (1.07) Train sign “Łódź Kaliska” - only the “Łódź” part of the sign is illuminated, while “Kaliska” is in the dark and partially covered by a pillar. A street light shines brightly, and in the distance the lights of a train are visible. (2.35) Trains pass in different directions, with one of them stopping at the station. A man gets off the train, crew says "cut" (5.24) Take 17. A wet road in a city on a cloudy day, pan to railway track on right with a tram. Cars driving on either side of the railway. Camera follows a tram. People walk about. (6.19) Another cloudy day, with a red car driving down the road in front of a grand building. “Take 19, Poznański's Palace”. (7.19) Sound cuts out, and the camera slowly pans to the left, showing another side of the palace and the road. (7.40) Soundman says: “Street sounds atmosphere at the Posinski factory.” (7.49) A tall, ornate, wrought iron gate with flags on either side. The side of a long, five-story brick building. There are fire escapes along the side of the building, and a fence surrounding it, with Polish flags all along the top. (10.30) A building with a small store front. A tram comes in from the left, and the camera follows it. A statue in the distance as well as an ornate building. (11.13) An apartment complex courtyard, with identical, three-story apartment buildings on three sides. Some of the apartments have balconies. (11.42) Take 22. A wide alley. Building that is smaller and older looking. (13.18) CU, one of the windows of a building, where a person in a pink shirt has pulled back the lace curtain and is looking out the window. (13.52) A child is walking down the sidewalk, bundled up in winter clothes. The scene repeats once more. (14.10) Red flag hangs above. Camera reveals a dark corridor that opens to a courtyard of the ghetto. The cameraperson continues through the open space to another dark hallway, which leads to an old building. (15.21) “Pionier”building. A woman in a red coat and a red stroller walks by. Another person walks up to the building, stopping to look at the sign, and then peers into the windows on the doors. (16.50) A red brick building, zoomed in on a balcony that has green windows. (18.38) A lower angle of the same balcony. The camera pans to the left, showing a street and then a large, ornate church. (19.37) Small hanging sign reads “Łódź Kaliska.” Train platform and a building, then the stairway from earlier. People are walking about. (21.33) Main train station building, “Łódź Kaliska” and a clock. (21.54) The camera zooms back out. (23.16) The camera moves to the left, stopping on an entryway and then zooms in as people walk in and out. “wyjście na perony-1,2,3” [exit to the platforms] is on a sign above the entryway. (24.22) Filmed from the perspective of a passenger in a car, traveling down a road in a city. (26.14) A green sign is passed on the right, stating the city Opole and Katowice are to the left, and Wielun and Warszawa are to the right. (26.33) Walking-only zone, in the distance is a large statue, in Czestochowa. (26.49) Czen 2. A sidewalk with only a few people walking. People cross the street in front of the zone. (27.52) Building with sign “Dworzec Częstochowa-Stradom” [Częstochowa Stradom Station] on the front. (28.15) A green field with the sun setting on water in the BG. (28.42) A fenced in yard and a structure, still at sunset. Chickens are in the yard. FILM ID 4645 -- Doubles Łódź Ghetto / Dres 12.13.16.17 (10:34) A street profile in wintertime. Snow on the ground. (00:54) Clapperboard: “Lodz Ghetto.” A walkway leading up to a house. The front porch is painted green. (1.08) A city street. A few people are walking on the sidewalk. (1.22) Two covered walkways that share a courtyard between buildings. A woman and a child are walking away, the child poking at the snow with a stick. A woman look for something in her purse. (1.49) The front of a small house with door and windows painted green. A man walks through. Apartment building. (2.33) A woman walks by with two dogs. Behind her are several buildings. (2.46) The balconies of an apartment building. (3.04) Someone carries bags down the street away from the camera. Another person walks by. (3.19) A long, wooden, two-story building and a more modern building behind. (3.34) Clapperboard: “Pologne Hiver Bobine.” (4.03) Cars driving on the street. Tram tracks cut through the middle of the street. People on the sidewalk. (4.17) Tram tracks on the road. An older wooden building. (5.07) People walk by on the sidewalk. A red building with decorative designs. (5.46) A bucket loader dump truck drives by people waiting at a tram stop. Bus. The tram arrives. (6.26) An empty street. People enter the frame, walking by. Tram. (7.37) Graves amidst overgrown grass. Rows and rows of graves in the cemetery. (8.23) A man walks towards and past the camera. Behind them is a closed gate, with a tall brick archway. (8.49) Graves. (9.39) Many people are walking about in an open area of the city. Market.

    Jean Pictet - Red Cross

    Jean Pictet - Red Cross

    Film

    A leading member of the International Council of the Red Cross, Jean Pictet was responsible for the preparatory work which led to the conclusion of the four Geneva Conventions in 1949. FILM ID 3444 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:08 to 01:27:25 Roll 1 Jean Pictet sits in his office in the International Committee of the Red Cross (Comité International de la Croix-Rouge). Pictet began working for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in 1937 when he was twenty-five years old. He started as a legal secretary and worked closely with the President of the ICRC, Max Huber. In 1946, Pictet was appointed Director. Though skeptical of the existence of concentration and extermination camps, the ICRC became certain of their existence in October 1942. Pictet planned and wrote a public appeal, but it was never made public. Roll 2 01:05:05 Lanzmann asks Pictet how rumors of the camps spread throughout Geneva. Pictet explains that while he believed the camps were very bad, he was not fully convinced of the existence of mass exterminations until 1943. The ICRC first became suspicious when the Germans refused to provide any news of the Jews held in the camps. Pictet states that he and the ICRC feared if they insisted too much concerning the treatment of Jewish prisoners, the Germans would have expelled the ICRC delegates, thus hindering aid to all prisoners. Roll 3 01:16:21 Lanzmann asks Pictet if the ICRC had a moral duty to help those in the camps. Pictet states that the ICRC had to work within the bounds set by the precedent of limited protesting the ICRC had established. He claims there were two fundamental stances one could take on the activity of the German government: justice or charity. He believes that the ICRC could not have continued to provide aid to the civilian and political prisoners if they had made a public moral judgment. The ICRC protested rarely, and only when their information was based of eyewitness accounts from their delegates. FILM ID 3445 - Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:10 to 02:34:48 Roll 4 Pictet describes the trouble the ICRC faced regarding lodging a public protest. The ICRC was either not permitted to visit camps, or shown only what the Germans wanted them to see. On June 26, 1944 the ICRC visited Theresienstadt, which had been completely remodeled and "beautified" so as to trick the ICRC into believing the Jews were being treated well. Pictet claims that while the delegate wrote a positive report on the camp, neither he nor the ICRC were taken in by the propaganda. Pictet affirms the importance of the ICRC remaining neutral in favor of providing aid. Pictet and Lanzmann discuss how the logo of the Red Cross was widely used by the Nazis. It was on the trucks which transported Zyklon B to Auschwitz and on the hospital, the "Lazarett," in Treblinka which hid the true purpose of the building: to exterminate prisoners. Roll 5 02:11:25 Several dozen delegates in Germany risked expulsion if the ICRC antagonized the German government. The Allies knew what was taking place in the camps; in December 1942 they described the extent of the atrocities in a declaration. Aid for the Allied prisoners of war in Germany amounted to over three billion francs. Delegates were able to provide aid to prisoners of war, but were not allowed into camps holding Jews. Aid for Jews was provided mainly by the Joint Distribution Committee and the War Refugee Board. Pictet continues to use the phrase "political detainee/prisoner" to describe Jewish inmates from when the ICRC had to maintain courteous relations with Germany. According to Pictet, it would have been impossible to condemn the Germans while at the same time upholding a diplomatic relationship. [AUDIO BUT NO IMAGE 02:22:22 TO 02:35:08] Roll 6 02:23:07 Although the war was won, the Jewish population was annihilated. The ICRC did not have the power to prevent the development of the camps. The ICRC helped where it could, in one instance through The Division of Special Assistance (DAS). Though the German government did not provide the ICRC with addresses to send supplies to, they acquired such information from witnesses and other means. This way, the ICRC was able to send about 1,600,000 parcels of aid. Pictet has several receipts of aid he kept from the war, including one from the Royal Family of Belgium. Lanzmann and Pictet discuss the actions of Count Bernadotte, who negotiated the release of about 31,000 Jews from German camps and Jean-Marie Musy, the former president of the Swiss Confederation who rescued 1,200 Jews. Towards the end of the war the ICRC was able to enter the camps and provide aid to prisoners and even remove some from the camps. When the camps were liberated the ICRC provided medical aid and helped survivors contact family members. FILM ID 3446 - Camera Roll #7 -- 03:00:09 to 03:10:33 Lanzmann and Pictet examine an acknowledgement of receipt that was sent to the camp of Dachau. Ten additional people who had benefited from the parcel had written their names on the receipt. Consequently, the ICRC was able to provide aid to even more detainees. [AUDIO BUT NO IMAGE 03:07:17 to 03:10:33]. Pictet describes the ICRC's aid as weak compared to the immensity of the suffering, yet enormous compared to what was done by others. FILM ID 3447 - Camera Rolls #7AM,7A,8 Coupe -- 04:00:06 to 04:09:22 Receipt of aid from King Leopold III, king of the Belgians. 04:00:20 Receipt of aid from Princess de Réthy. 04:00:29 The building of the Comité International de la Croix-Rouge (CICR) in Geneva. 04:01:51 View of the street next to the CICR. 04:03:10 The red cross, symbol of the organization, as a flag on top of the building. 04:08:12 Scene of a boat named Helvétie.

    Walter Stier

    Walter Stier

    Film

    As a Reichsbahn official, Walter Stier scheduled the journeys of special trains to different death camps. He claims he knew nothing of the destination. Lanzmann used a false name and filmed this interview with a hidden camera. FILM ID 3800 - Stier 1-4A [CR 1,4,2,3] CR1 (silent) INT minivan with video transmission of the interview with Stier on a television monitor. 01:00:57 Volkswagon van on street approaching camera, parking. 01:01:39 CR4 (sound) Van parked next to residence. Zoom, CUs. White/red minivan with plate 307CAE75. 01:03:01 CR2 (sound) Side view of the van, exteriors. CU of the moving antenna. 01:03:35 CR3 (silent) Short shot of the minibus, image out from 01:03:47 to 01:03:55. CU antenna. FILM ID 3801 - Stier 1A-2B [CR 1A,2A,2B] (sound and image in and out throughout reel) Lanzmann and Stier recall the names of European regions formerly part of the Third Reich. Lanzmann uses a false name, and Stier refers to him as Dr. Sorel. Stier began working in the head office of the Eastern Railways soon after its inception in Krakow in 1939, and was transferred to Warsaw in July 1943 when he was promoted to head of the scheduling bureau. Department 33 aided the Reichsbahn by supplying "special" trains to transport Jews to concentration camps. The Reich traffic ministry in Berlin ordered special trains from Department 33. Despite having been tried as an accessory to murder, Stier maintains that he knew nothing of the purpose of the transports. He vehemently states he sat behind a desk for the duration of the war and that he was only responsible for arranging train schedules. FILM ID 3802 - Stier 3A-5A [CR 3A,3B,4A,5,5A] (sound and image in and out throughout reel) None of Stier's supervisors were indicted for any crimes. Although his office in Krakow was relatively close to Auschwitz, Stier claims he had no idea that over one million people were being exterminated there. Lanzmann shows Stier a summary report of train schedules from Department 33 indicating that Jews were transported from ghettos to various concentration camps. Stier points out that all the trains are recorded as leaving the camps empty. Stier never saw any of the trains he assisted in sending to concentration camps or the ghettos their victims came from. He tells Lanzmann that there were members of the Nazi Party in Department 33, and those who were not members were forced to join under threat of losing their job. Stier joined the Nazi Party in 1939. FILM ID 3803 - Stier 6-7 [CR 6,7] (sound and image in and out throughout reel) As a member of the Nazi Party, Stier received extra food and alcohol which was not available to non-party members during rationing. He once gave his Polish assistant, Stanislaus Pfalz, spare food and tells Lanzmann that he and others in the department would have done anything to help. Everybody had an idea of what the transports of Jews to the East was, but it was not discussed until the end of the war. Even if Stier had known the truth, he would have remained silent out of fear. After the war, Stier worked for a British Station Officer as an interpreter where he scheduled and witnessed trains arriving from the East with survivors of the camps. FILM ID 3868 -- 8,9 Son Seul Chemin de fer (audio only, there is no corresponding 16mm image) Stier did not believe Germany would lose the war until the fall of Stalingrad. Stier shows Lanzmann pictures of his family and co-workers during the war, including a photo of Franz Stangl. Stier was called as a witness to many of the postwar trials for high-ranking Nazis. #9 Stier and Lanzmann discuss the statute of limitations and how it may prevent further convictions of Nazis, something Stier finds fault with. He claims that if he had murdered anyone he should have to be held responsible. FILM ID 3310 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #1) -- 14:00:10 to 14:07:12 (preserved with Gewecke) Mute color shots of two technicians in the van that received the video feed from the hidden camera interview. The technicians watch the image, listen to the sound, and make adjustments. CU on the black and white image. The man being interviewed is Stier. FILM ID 3312 -- Int. Camion Gewecke Stier (Stier Camera Roll #7) -- 16:00:11 to 16:08:06 (preserved with Gewecke) Continuation of the scene in the van. One of the technicians adjusts an antenna. Again, the image shows Stier.

    Faivel Ziegelbaum

    Faivel Ziegelbaum

    Film

    The story of Szmuel (Artur) Ziegelbaum through his brother, Faivel. Faivel reads his brother's letters and occasionally offers his own reflections. This interview took place in Tel Aviv. FILM ID 3882 -- Zygielbojm Camera Rolls 1-11 In Israel, in several takes, Faivel Zygielboim reads a letter which his brother, Szmuel (Artur) Zygielboim wrote, preceding his suicide. In the letters, Artur describes the powerlessness and guilt he feels at the conditions his family and thousands of others live in back home in Europe. After Artur wrote letters to Churchill and other leaders of Allied countries to no avail, he committed suicide. One of the last letters Artur received came from Jan Karski, begging for help from the rest of the world. Artur tried to convince those in positions of power to help, and even made a radio broadcast over the BBC, but his appeals fell on deaf ears. His last words were a plea to the collective human conscience. The last cable sent to Artur graphically describing the events of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, was likely never read by him as he committed suicide the night it was written on May 11-12, 1943. Faivel reads his brothers suicide letter. In his letter, he accuses the Allied countries for not making enough effort to help the Jews, and through passive observation labels them as accomplices. His suicide was in protest to the mass indifference of the world. At a family reunion in 1969, Faivel and his family found a photograph of Artur's daughter and wife after they had been murdered, possibly in Treblinka. FILM ID 3883 – Zygielbojm Coupes Silent shots of Faivel Zygielbojm in his apartment in Tel Aviv, Israel. CU on bookshelf; mostly books in Hebrew. Highlights Adam Czerniakow’s Warsaw Ghetto Diary. Pan of spines on bookshelf, across to picture frames of different drawings and family photographs. The camera stops on a black and white portrait of Szmul Zygielbojm. Zoom outwards to capture the entire wall, with Faivel seated on a couch in front of the wall, looking through a book. Surrounding him on the couch are his brother’s letters and other manuscripts. He looks up at the bookshelf and smokes a cigarette pensively. He looks over the book, open on the couch next to him. He smokes and flips through the book. Image cuts out at 3:26 and comes back at 3:35. CU on Faviel’s face as he reads. CU on his hands, flipping through letters from his brother. CU on face reading. Pan down to the letter in his hands. Faivel smokes and reads the letter to himself. CU on a handwritten letter from Szmul, dated April 6, 1941 from New York. Pan of the letter. CU on portrait of Szmul. Fuzzy image of a hand covering the camera lens. Image cuts out at 6:18.

    Benjamin Murmelstein - Theresienstadt Judenaelteste

    Benjamin Murmelstein - Theresienstadt Judenaelteste

    Film

    Benjamin Murmelstein, a rabbi and intellectual, worked closely with Adolf Eichmann in Vienna and became the last head of the Jewish Council in Theresienstadt. He defends his behavior against the many who have criticized him since the war and provides important details about the functioning of Eichmann's Central Office for Jewish Emigration. The sound on these tapes is problematic. Claude Lanzmann's questions are sometimes inaudible (they often do not appear in the transcripts). The audio sometimes outlasts the video image. The first few tapes show Murmelstein and Lanzmann outside on a balcony, then they move indoors. The sound levels are generally inconsistent. The interview takes place in Rome, where Murmelstein settled in 1947. FILM ID 3158 -- Camera Rolls #22,23,24,26A -- 01:00:00 to 01:21:08 Murmelstein says that he is as happy in Rome as one who lives in exile can be. He talks about how hard it is to speak about the past and the Jews missing from Europe, Rome included. He says that Lanzmann has persuaded him of the importance of talking. Lanzmann says that Murmelstein has been silent for 30 years, which Murmelstein disputes, mentioning the book he wrote in 1961 called "Eichmann's Model Ghetto." He talks about the two films about Theresienstadt, one made in 1942 and one in 1944. He says that he was filmed for the second one but the scene was cut, which was a good thing. He says that he first saw the film on April 16, 1945 with Rudolf (Rezso) Kasztner. He states that the Nazis cut the scene in which he appeared because Eppstein also appeared in the scene and the Nazis had executed Eppstein. He says, "With a dead Jewish council chairman you can't make propaganda, can you?" He talks about Rumkowski (chairman of the Jewish council in the Łódź ghetto), who allowed himself to be called "King Chaim." He talks in mythical and religious terms, making reference to Roman myths, Christianity, Judaism, and fairy tales. At one point Lanzmann tells him that he himself is somewhat mythical because he was so hard to find, and people kept telling Lanzmann that Murmelstein was dead, or very old. Lanzmann tells Murmelstein that he is the last living Jewish council chairman. Murmelstein says he was not aware of this. Murmelstein tells Lanzmann of his experiences immediately after the war. He says that he was supposed to survive so that he could tell fairy tales like the princess in 1001 Nights. The fairy tales he tells are about the Jewish paradise of Theresienstadt. He says that he told this tale until 5 April 1945 when the Red Cross came to Theresienstadt. On that day it was like the story of Little Red Riding Hood when the wolf dressed as the grandmother came out of the bed. Lanzmann tells Murmelstein that he is the last person who can talk about the Jewish council. Murmelstein says that being head of the Jewish council was like being between a hammer and an anvil, between the Germans and the Jews. FILM ID 3159 -- Camera Rolls #27-29 -- 01:00:20 to 01:22:29 (The sound is flawed for the first 3 minutes or so. The audio is distorted and cuts out at one point. See 01:04:07 for restart with audio ok. Murmelstein's voice at the end of Roll 28 - 01:11:33 - does not correspond to the video.) Murmelstein became involved with the Israelitische Kultusgemeinde after the Anschluss in 1938 but he first came to political attention in about 1935 when he was a rabbi in the 20th district (which had the second largest Jewish population in Vienna) and gave a speech commemorating the 12,000 unknown Jewish soldiers who fought in World War I and who had been denigrated by Goebbels. His speech somehow got into the press. He was forced to organize and speak at a ceremony honoring the murdered Austrian chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss and his speech at the ceremony was fairly blatantly anti-Nazi. He tells of how he published a refutation of an antisemitic book written by a professor, and how another Nazi professor, at the request of Murmelstein, helped ensure that Jewish students were allowed to complete their final exams. He tells of how the Kultusgemeinde issued two appeals, one to the youth, and another stating that the Jewish community must protect their position and honor, but at the same time giving the message that the Jews must get out of Austria. ["Wir muessen weg."] He was given the task of writing both of these appeals which was difficult because of state censorship, but somehow he succeeded. 01:16:30 He tells of first meeting Eichmann in summer 1938. He says he was assigned to write reports about emigration for Eichmann, despite the fact that he knew little about the topic. He asserts that Eichmann was no expert (specialist) in the topic, despite what was said in Jerusalem (at Eichmann's trial). Murmelstein goes on to discount a book by Israel Harel, who arrested Eichmann, in which it was reported that he (Murmelstein) taught Eichmann Hebrew. Murmelstein says that Eichmann had no knowledge of Hebrew and only a superficial knowledge of emigration, all of which he learned from Murmelstein. FILM ID 3160 -- Camera Roll #30 -- 01:00:02 to 01:11:31 Extreme close-ups of Murmelstein's face. Murmelstein continues to talk about his relationship with Eichmann and how he tried to maintain some distance from him. He tells of a meeting in Berlin and how Eichmann burst into Murmelstein's office on 10 November 1938 (Kristallnacht) carrying a revolver. He complains that the verdict against Eichmann in Jerusalem did not include a conviction for Eichmann's participation in Kristallnacht. He saw Eichmann personally commanding destruction on 9-10 November. He goes on to say that Kristallnacht had nothing to do with Herschel Grynszpan's assassination of Ernst vom Rath, but that 10 November was the anniversary of the founding of the Weimar Republic, the so-called Jewish republic, and was thus always an opportunity for anti-Jewish propaganda. Hitler himself had said that the Jews would pay for the Weimar Republic. The audio continues for several seconds after the video stops. FILM ID 3161 -- Camera Rolls #31-32 -- 04:00:05 to 04:22:35 The discussion of the Eichmann trial continues. Lanzmann wonders why Murmelstein was not called to testify and Murmelstein says that for some reason they did not find him a credible witness. He says that he protested when he read in the paper that Eichmann had testified that the only Jewish representative who had not agreed with Nisko was Murmelstein. [Nisko was a plan, never realized, to solve the "Jewish problem" by settling Jews in an area around Lublin] Murmelstein felt compelled to protest on behalf of the dead Jewish representatives. He mentions Hannah Arendt and others who got a false impression of Eichmann from the trial. He says that the most important jurist in Rome, Carnelutti, wrote that Eichmann's trial was the second trial of Jerusalem, referring to the crucifixion of Christ. Murmelstein's reply, published in a Jewish newspaper, was that Jesus was crucified with two criminals and Carnelutti was crucifying him again with a criminal. He talks about Eichmann's involvement in schemes to steal money from the Jews in return for false promises of emigration. 04:11:27 CR 32 Murmelstein himself had opportunities to emigrate, as did other leaders of the Jewish community, but they did not leave. He traveled to London twice in 1939 but did not stay. In June 1939 he received certificates to travel to Palestine with his wife but he gave them to another family. Last few seconds of the audio drops out. FILM ID 3162 -- Camera Rolls #33-34 -- 05:00:05 to 05:22:37 Lanzmann and Murmelstein continue to discuss the "spirit of adventure" [Abenteuerlust] that kept Murmelstein from emigrating. He felt like his work in getting Jews out of Vienna was going well. He mentions the success of the Jewish refugee camp in Kent Richborough in England. He took personal risks (once, for example, he issued visas that he knew were not valid) and he also felt a personal satisfaction at being able to help people get out of Austria. He addresses the fact that people have accused him of abusing his power and mentions that the Encyclopedia Judaica accuses him of this. He denies that he did so and says that he was just trying to help people, although he says that of course people are human and power has a certain feeling. He then discusses the escape of Jews to China via the trans-Siberian railroad in 1940. Chinese officials stole money from the Jews but somehow Murmelstein managed to prevent this from continuing. Audio cuts out from 05:11:29 to 05:11:50, when roll 34 starts. He states that once the war started they couldn't get money from the American JDC any more. He discovered that the Reichsvereinigung had a dollar account in Harbin, from which he took money to enable a train of Austrian Jews to leave China. When Eppstein, in Berlin, found out about this he was upset with Murmelstein. Murmelstein told him that if they both survived Murmelstein would convince the Joint to give Eppstein his dollars. Murmelstein tells of his first falling out with Loewenherz and with the Joint. He describes it as the first occasion where people abroad begin to speak about him. Murmelstein explains something of the way in which the Kultusgemeinde dealt with money: they collected Reichsmarks and changed them to dollars, which was the currency used to buy passage on ships. Loewenherz was in charge of the budget and therefore had a lot of money concentrated in his hands. A doctor in the Jewish community had obtained passage for himself, his wife and his 90 year old mother-in-law on a ship. Murmelstein didn't think it was right to use a place on a ship for a 90 year old, but it wasn't his decision. On the day the ship was to sail the doctor came to him and said he was not sailing on the ship because he hadn't sold his house yet. Murmelstein was appalled: places on ships were very precious and he could not fill the three places on such short notice. The doctor demanded more money from the Kultusgemeinde The audio drops out from 05:22:12 to 05:22:37, which is the end of the tape. FILM ID 3163 -- Camera Rolls #35-36 -- 06:00:05 to 06:20:31 Murmelstein continues with the story about the doctor. Murmelstein informed the doctor that he, the doctor, would be responsible should he not use the three spaces on the ship and since the ship was sailing under the auspices of the SS.... The doctor quickly decided to leave, but not without complaining about Murmelstein to Loewenherz and the Joint subsequently heard about the incident as well. Murmelstein tells Lanzmann that even in 1941 he sometimes managed to help people emigrate who had already been designated for deportation. He tells of a particular case in which he managed to save a man who had shown Alois Brunner, Eichmann's assistant, a letter of exemption [Empfehlung] from Goering, which was as good as a death sentence, given the relations between Himmler and Goering. Murmelstein managed to outsmart a junior SS officer and the man escaped deportation. He also talks of two other Empfehlungen, one from Goebbels for the brother-in-law of (the composer) Franz Lehar, and an oral Empfehlung from Hitler for Dr. Bloch, who had treated Hitler's father. Murmelstein discusses the deportations from Germany, which began in October 1940, and states again that Eichmann was not banal and that he had the power to carry out his threats. Lanzmann asks about the founding of the Zentralstelle fuer Juedische Auswanderung. Murmelstein says that the Zentralstelle was an "Art Golem." It was created for a certain purpose but soon grew out of control and became an instrument of destruction. Murmelstein says that things were much worse for the Jews of Vienna than for German Jews, and that Goering had made statements that 300,000 Jews should be deported from Vienna within two years, despite the fact that there were never that many Jews in Vienna. Lanzmann asks him why Goering used this false number, and Murmelstein replies that it was propaganda, that the Nazis had talked so long of the "Verjudung" of Vienna that in the end they believed their own lies. Murmelstein details how hard it was for Jews to pay all the fees and taxes they needed to pay in order to emigrate and says that this lead to the founding of the Zentralstelle. Lanzmann asks whose idea was the Zentrallstelle and Murmelstein replies that the idea sprang from necessity ["Es hat sich von selbst ergeben"]. Murmelstein says something about how his department managed to lower the required taxes and fees, or obscure the fact that they had not been paid. FILM ID 3164 -- Camera Roll #37 -- 07:00:03 to 07:11:12 Murmelstein says that employees of the Zentralstelle carefully watched and reported on the Germans. He says that Eichmann and the Gestapo competed for power and money and the Jews were in the middle. The Gestapo was not happy that Eichmann controlled the deportations of the Jews, because there was money to be made. He says that although he would be the last person to say a good word about Eichmann, working with him allowed Murmelstein to accomplish certain goals (saving people from deportation or getting them released from camps). He says that Loewenherz did not get things done in a timely manner and that Eichmann could not stand Engel. Murmelstein tells of how Eichmann continued to threaten and squeeze money out of the Jewish community. At one point, a law was passed dissolving the Kultusgemeinde in Innsbrueck and declaring it to be an enemy organization ("Reichfeindlich"). This disturbed Murmelstein greatly because he saw it as an escalation of persecution and he went to Loewenherz to see what could be done. He found Loewenherz unhelpful and decided to undertake measures on his own. FILM ID 3165 -- Camera Rolls #38-39 -- 01:00:05 to 01:29:56 In hopes of finding some way to reverse the dissolution of the Innsbrueck Kultusgemeinde, Murmelstein studied Nazi law and filed a petition arguing that it was not possible under Nazi law for the Kultusgemeinde to be declared "Reichfeindlich." The petition reached Eichmann, and some time later the law was repealed. After much thought Murmelstein came to the conclusion that Eichmann helped him because if the Kultusgemeinde was declared illegal, it and the money it generated would be removed from his control. Lanzmann compliments Murmelstein on his memory and asks about the reason behind the creation of the Judenraete and the Judenaeltesten. Murmelstein explains that there were Judenaelteste in German Jewish history, but that the Nazis meant to degrade the Jews by giving them these titles, which sounded tribal and "third world." Lanzmann asks him about the Nazis' interest in "Judenwissenschaft" and Murmelstein says that they were ignorant of Hebrew and the meaning of ritual objects, even as they (Rosenberg, for example) confiscated them. Murmelstein ended up giving Hebrew lessons to several Nazis and he is ambivalent about these men. One of them was his professor, Christian, who helped Jewish students at the University to get their degrees after the Nazis took power. Another was Dr. Jungreitmeier, whom Murmelstein rebuked strongly for the execution of a Jewish partisan. Jungreitmeier began to cry at Murmelstein's words and the two men became friends. His students even attempted to get him returned to Vienna once he was deported to Theresienstadt but they were not successful. However, word of his classes had spread and three or four trucks full of Jewish books arrived at Theresienstadt, in order for Murmelstein to create a bibliography. He turned this task over to a man named Dr. Munalis from Prague. Murmelstein was instructed by the Germans to remove the names of the people who owned the books, but he told Dr. Munalis not to do this. When Kellner, the Nazi who had given the order, showed up to see how the work was going, Murmelstein managed to distract him to the point that the man never actually opened a book to look at it. Murmelstein then turns to the question, which Lanzmann had asked him, of how he came to be hated in Theresienstadt. A man named Dr. Nuernberger happened to be visiting at the time Kellner came to view the bibliography's progress. He mistook Murmelstein's talkativeness with the Nazi and the looks between Dr. Munalis and Murmelstein after Kellner's departure, as sycophancy and arrogance. The audio continues for almost ten minutes after the video stops from 01:22:45 to 01:31:50. FILM ID 3166 -- Camera Rolls #40-41-- 09:00:05 to 09:22:40 Lanzmann asks Murmelstein about a report he wrote in 1940 at Eichmann's behest. The report discussed the feasibility of a Jewish state as a solution to the "Jewish problem." Murmelstein asserts that he did indeed write this report, which was presented as the Loewenherz report at the Eichmann trial. At the time he did not know that Eichmann was working on the Madagascar plan. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein whether he was a Zionist, which Murmelstein does not answer directly at first. Murmelstein defends his report and himself against the charge that Gideon Hausner made in his book, "Justice in Jerusalem," that both Rumkowski and Murmelstein were tools or marionettes of the Nazis. Murmelstein takes exception to this, saying that at that time Hitler ruled from the Atlantic Ocean to the Caucasus yet Murmelstein still had the courage to suggest in this report that whatever power ended up controlling the Mediterranean had the duty to establish Palestine as the homeland of the Jews. Lanzmann corrects him, saying that in 1940 Hitler had not reached the Caucasus. Murmelstein agrees that this is true and continues trying to explain that he could not simply tell Eichmann, no, I want nothing to do with you. CR 41 09:11:29 Lanzmann returns to the report, asking how long it was and whether it relied on Herzl's ideas. Murmelstein derides Arendt's reading of the report and insists that his idea of a Jewish state was Palestine, although he could not state that plainly in the report. He says that had he known that Eichmann was thinking about Madagascar he wouldn't have written the report. Murmelstein and Lanzmann continue to discuss Madagascar for some time. Murmelstein says, and Lanzmann agrees, that Madagascar became code for the Final Solution. Theresienstadt, says Murmelstein, was also a code or method for hiding the true goal of the Germans. FILM ID 3167 -- Camera Rolls #42-43 -- 01:00:23 to 01:22:53 Close-up on Murmelstein's notes. The sound is better on this tape than on previous tapes - you can hear Lanzmann's questions better, although the volume is still lower than on Murmelstein's answers. They continue to talk about Madagascar and Nisko. Murmelstein says that Bonnet told Ribbentrop that the French needed Madagascar for their own Jews. Then the English occupied Madagascar. Murmelstein says that they used Birobidjan as a model for Nisko. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein to explain about Nisko and Murmelstein says that he never thought of Nisko as a solution, that even Eichmann said that all the Jewish representatives were in favor of Nisko, except Murmelstein. Murmelstein traveled to Nisko at the behest of Eichmann's deputy, Guenther. Murmelstein told Guenther that further emigration should be attempted rather than concentration of the Jews in Nisko. Guenther told Murmelstein that he was turning down a chance to be the king of the Jews. 01:11:42 CR 43 Lanzmann asks Murmelstein why he was offered the position as king of the Jews and not Edelstein or the others. Murmelstein replies that it was quite simply because he had known Eichmann the longest and that Eichmann knew he worked in the emigration department and knew how to organize things. He says that nonetheless, after the research he did on Madascar, Eichmann wrote him off, and for this reason he arrived in Theresienstadt as just a normal Jew, "ohne Auftrag," and that it was only at the last moment that he was named (to the Council?). He explains that the leaders in Vienna worked well together and did not engage in power struggles like they did in Berlin and Prague. He says that he arranged, with Eichmann and Brunner, to allow 500 Jews [Glaubensjuden] to stay in Vienna, where they remained free until the end of the war. He says that Brunner attempted to play him and Loewenherz off against each other by offering him (Murmelstein) the power to make the deportation lists alone, but Murmelstein refused. The camera pulls back to reveal that Lanzmann is reading one of Murmelstein's documents, which Murmelstein describes as a petition written by Loewenherz, that shows how Loewenherz pleaded that another man (Prochnik) be sent to Nisko in Murmelstein's place. He means to show that Loewenherz supported him at the time. He says he never would have allowed Prochnik to go in his place. Lanzmann reads aloud from the document, in which Loewenherz describes how necessary Murmelstein is to the functioning of the Kultusgemeinde, including counting the Jews of Vienna, etc. Murmelstein explains that it was important to be necessary, because then nothing would happen to you. However at that moment he was not necessary to Eichmann. Eichmann had put together a transport to Poland without the help of Murmelstein, which convinced him that he did not need Murmelstein [Murmelstein fooled Eichmann in that instance?] Lanzmann continues to read from the document and the camera comes in close on Murmelstein's face. Murmelstein replies, speaking over Lanzmann, that Loewenherz wanted to rescue him at any price. FILM ID 3168 -- Camera Rolls #44-45 -- 11:00:04 to 11:22:24 Murmelstein tells Lanzmann about when Loewenherz was sent to Theresienstadt as chairman of the Jewish Council. Murmelstein protested but to no avail, and he himself was sent to Nisko. He went in a "sondercoupe" with other Jewish representatives. They stopped in Krakow and he was appalled at the "dead eyes" of the religious Jews he saw there at forced labor. He says that the train stopped far from Nisko and they were forced to march for two days. The next day they arrived for roll call in the town of Sanjietce (Saniecze), where Eichmann spoke. He told them a camp would be built in that location. Eichmann said that the springs around the area were infested with typhus so they would have to get a new source of water because drinking the infected water could mean death. As he said it he smiled in a way that has always stuck with Murmelstein. 11:11:15 CR 45 Murmelstein tells Lanzmann that when Eichmann stated before the court in Jerusalem that he did not give such a speech to the Jews at Nisko he was quite correct, that he actually gave the speech in Sanjietce (Saniecze), which was 12 km from Nisko. Murmelstein was there and saw it for himself, and the speech was described in his book on Thersienstadt. The prosecutors at Eichmann's trial did not bother to read his book. He relates other instances of Eichmann's cruelty, including one which resulted in a family of three committing suicide, and he calls Eichmann a demon. FILM ID 3169 -- Camera Rolls #46-47 -- 12:00:03 to 12:23:10 The first 4 or so minutes of this tape show extreme close-ups on Lanzmann as he smiles and laughs. He appears to be listening to Murmelstein speak but there is no audio until a few minutes in. When CR 46 starts at 12:04:30, Murmelstein returns to Eichmann's speech in Nisko, or "more accurately Saniecze," which he describes as a foreshadowing of the Final Solution. He says that for the Jews in Nisko the only door left open was escape to the USSR, and that the Soviet soldiers allowed this to happen. However, this was only a possibility for those who were young and fit. The oldest suffered the most during deportations, but it was nonetheless desired by the Jewish Council that the eldest should be deported in favor of the young. Lanzmann attempts to draw Murmelstein further on this, asking whether this was "Edelstein Politik." Murmelstein explains that Edelstein had a lot of guilt toward the Czech Jews, who had trusted him when they came to Theresienstadt. In some cases Mischlinge [people of mixed parentage] came to Theresienstadt when they would have been safe in Prague. Edelstein had been lied to by Guenther in Prague, but he felt guilty nonetheless. Video is missing from 12:11:12 to 12:11:59, when the next reel begins. During his stay in Nisko Murmelstein and a group of other Jews were sent to Lublin. They were given passports and letters of passage that did not identify them as Jews, which was good because a pogrom happened in Lublin while they were there. After 10 days they were sent back to Nisko, which Murmelstein realized later was because the planned settlement at Nisko was now obsolete. Nonetheless, it was a step down the path toward the final solution. FILM ID 3170 -- Camera Rolls #48-49 -- 13:00:04 to 13:22:47 Although Goering and others feared America's reaction to Nisko, they found that the entire episode was ignored by the world. Thus the plans to dispose of the Jews progressed. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein what he personally thought of the Nazis' plans after the experience of Nisko, to which Murmelstein replies that he knew it would be certain death for old people to be deported to Nisko and he was determined to prevent that. Lanzmann tries to draw him more on the subject of what he thought the Nazis had planned for the Jews, but Murmelstein insists on telling his story and says that he had no time to think about such things, he had time only to act. The deportations from Vienna started again in October 1941. Murmelstein describes the Jewish council as marionettes but finally he refused to gather people for deportations and Brunner had the idea to make the selections himself. Lanzmann asks him about the Jewish police (Judenpolizei or Jupo) and Murmelstein said they had nothing to do with the Kultusgemeinde. Lanzmann asks if these police were really brutal and Murmelstein says that they were and that he once arranged for a group of them to be deported to the east. 13:11:17 CR 49 There is some static in the audio. Murmelstein returns to the subject of Brunner's selections. The Kultusgemeinde received lists containing names, addresses, and ages of those to be deported. Murmelstein cut from the lists those who were older than 55 or were ill, then called Brunner for more names to be added. Murmelstein explains that his thinking was that while it was bad to be deported, the deportations did not mean automatic death for those who were healthy. Brunner finally caught on and Murmelstein explained that if Brunner ordered work transports he could not send old or ill people. In answer to a question, Murmelstein states that he did not know that the transports were extermination transports. He thought the final destination would be something like Nisko. To further his point, he states that in Łódź, which he makes a point of calling Litzmannstadt, the chairman of the council was not aware for several months that a deportation of Jews from the ghetto went to Chelmno. The Jews were deported in spring 1942 and the chairman first became aware that the destination was Chelmno in October. Only Moses Maren, of Sosnowiece, had an idea of what was happening. Even if they had known, what could they have done? Lanzmann points out that this is a very important question, to which Murmelstein replies that there was nothing they could have done, except perhaps kill themselves, like Czerniakow (the head of the Jewish council in the Warsaw ghetto), but more importantly, Murmelstein says, Parnes in Lemberg [Lvov]. Lanzmann asks what Murmelstein thinks of this, and Murmelstein replies that it was not his way, that his way was to save as many Jews as he could (he again names specific occasions where he saved Jews). FILM ID 3171 -- Camera Rolls #50-52 -- 14:00:04 to 14:22:44 Murmelstein says that although he was called a tool of the Nazis by Gideon Hausner, he was able to prevent a death march from Theresienstadt which Hitler ordered in 1944. At Lanzmann's prompting, Murmelstein tells a long story about a baker whom he supposedly mishandled. He says that the baker faked a nervous breakdown. He talks again about trying to save the old people in Vienna and in Theresienstadt, and Eichmann's treachery. CR 51 14:11:21 He describes the Judenaelteste as being like the ass in the story, which is constantly running to catch the hay that is always just out of his reach. Eichmann agreed that the elderly would not be deported to the East but would stay in an old age home in Theresienstadt. However, the Jupo went to the old people, who did not know about Eichmann's order, and demanded money or else they would be deported. Murmelstein reported this to Brunner. When he himself was deported, a Jupo man escorted him. He tells Lanzmann this in order to illustrate that the Kultusgemeinde and the Jupo did not get along. Audio and video do not match 14:15:46 to 14:16:23. CR 52 14:16:24 Murmelstein says that during the years 1941 and 1942 he protested strongly against the deportations and argued that the Jews should be housed and concentrated in Vienna. Edelstein in Prague, during the same period, argued for the establishment of a ghetto. He describes the ghetto Thersienstadt and the Small Fortress, which was overseen by the worst type of SS men. Edelstein had been promised and in turn promised his people that they would be allowed to make Hachshara (go to Palestine) from Theresienstadt, which was not true. However, Edelstein also saw that Theresienstadt was important for propaganda, in order for the Germans to save face. FILM ID 3172 -- Camera Rolls #53-54 -- 15:00:04 to 15:22:55 Murmelstein talks about Theresienstadt as a cover for Auschwitz. He was deported to Theresienstadt in January 1943 as part of the final "Entjudung" (removal of Jews) of Vienna, which was accomplished on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the Nazi seizure of power and to deflect attention from other bad news for the Germans, such as Stalingrad and the landing of the Allies in North Africa. The deportation of the prominent Jews, such as himself, symbolized this Entjudung. He talks about the various categories used to designate the Jews; he was category A, as was Leo Baeck. He mentions a book by Friedlander which misrepresented Baeck's deportation number, because everything about Baeck's story should be tragic. Baeck had two rooms for himself and his housekeeper, and was never required to do forced labor. He says that even the Jews eventually believed the lies of the Nazis. He becomes quite exercised as he says that he read about a group of Jews who said, at a celebration of the 30th anniversary of liberation, that they were prepared to mount resistance but it was the Jewish Council who hindered their activities. The last bit of the reel has no image but the audio continues. CR 54 15:11:53 Murmelstein has read with astonishment since the war of all sorts of people who were actually resistance fighters. He says there were no weapons, no secret radio stations in Theresienstadt. He is not surprised by anything he reads. Lanzmann asks him what he thinks about Jews who wanted resistance, in principle, and he replies that the symbol of the resistance is Warsaw. Aryan Warsaw rose as one man in 1944 but when the ghetto rose in 1943 nobody in Aryan Warsaw paid any attention. One must be at the point of committing suicide to attempt an uprising, which is a point that Warsaw reached but Theresienstadt didn't. He says that he carried a vial of poison but could not use it, nor could Eppstein, even after he was arrested. Lanzmann asks at what point he would have killed himself and he says if they had built gas chambers in Theresienstadt, or Hitler's order of the death march had been carried out. Lanzmann asks him about the enterprise of cleaning up the city (Verschoenerung). He replies that it was a lie but one that could be used to advantage. Murmelstein explains the phases Theresienstadt went through: the Reichsaltersheim, which was liquidated, the childrens' home, when the children from Bialystok and Hong Kong arrived, then a center for foreign Jews, with the arrival of the Dutch, the Danish, and the expected eventual arrival of the English Jews. When the Danes tried to protect their Jews, the order was given for the Verschoenerung, so that a Danish contingent could visit the camp. Murmelstein explains his differences with the council "triumvirate." He disagreed with Edelstein regarding available spots on a transport to Palestine. FILM ID 3173 -- Camera Rolls #55-56 -- 16:00:04 to 16:22:30 Murmelstein says that Eichmann told him quite a lot about Theresienstadt before he was sent there. At the last minute, he was appointed by Brunner to be Eppstein's deputy. He describes his arrival in Theresienstadt in some detail, and the awkwardness between him and Edelstein and Eppstein, with whom he had previous conflicts. Nobody was aware that he had been named deputy. The two other men assigned him to two departments, Health and Technical, where he could not be expected to accomplish very much. Nonetheless he was able to establish an acceptable method for delousing people. CR 56 16:11:20 He continues with the story of the delousing problem. In fixing the problem, he further alienated Eppstein and others, but he did manage to ensure that the older people were deloused and cared for. He tells of how the three of them, although at odds, managed to ensure that people were immunized against typhus by withholding rations unless they were immunized. He was blamed for this. FILM ID 3174 -- Camera Rolls #57-58 -- 17:00:03 to 17:22:28 Lanzmann says that it is quite clear to him that Murmelstein loved power. Murmelstein replies that Lanzmann is just trying to make him angry. The one rule for the Judenaelteste was that you be necessary (to the Nazis). Once you became superfluous it was the end. Lanzmann says that people have written that he was ambitious, to which Murmelstein answers that he cannot rebut every stupid thing that people write about him. He lists several lies that he has read about himself. Lanzmann says that he was hated, and Murmelstein says that he refused special treatment to a Gettowachmann who came to him to try and get in touch with his wife who had been deported. This angered Eppstein. The camera pulls in very close on his face as he speaks. He tells another story about a transport of women who arrived at Theresienstadt to discover that their husbands were not with them, only to be harassed by drunk SS men. Murmelstein had to handle the problem on his own and ends the story by saying, "You ask why I was hated, what could a beloved Gettoaeltester have done?" CR 58 17:11:23 He says that Leo Baeck wanted to play a leading role in the ghetto but he was dangerous because he was senile. After a story about replacing the men of the Gettowache with women, he says that Eppstein attempted to help the man whom Murmelstein wouldn't help by arranging for all of those who wanted to be in touch by mail with their wives to sign up. Only those who followed Murmelstein's orders not to do so escaped deportation. He tells a long story about how he isolated a group of people who returned from Auschwitz after the war with barbed wire, because there was a typhus epidemic and there was no vaccine until the Russians arrived. A man called Neumann wrote a book in which he claimed that Murmelstein kept the people behind barbed wire because he was afraid of their anger at him. FILM ID 3175 -- Camera Rolls #59-60 -- 18:00:02 to 18:22:32 18:00:03 No audio. Shots of Murmelstein speaking; shots of a photo of him and Eppstein in a book Lanzmann is holding. 18:03:07 Lanzmann asks about the liquidation of Eppstein. Eppstein came to Murmelstein in 1944, quite pleased, and said that the Nazis were sending him to Portugal. Murmelstein advised him to turn down the assignment. In the same week Hans Guenther told Murmelstein he could leave for Palestine. Murmelstein said no, because he did not trust Guenther and thought that his wife and child would not be allowed to go with him. He later found out that this was all happening during the time that Joel Brand was sent to Constantinople on Eichmann's orders. He talks of Eppstein's Rosh Hashanah speech and says that Hannah Szenes's mission was hopeless from the beginning. He says that Łódź was liquidated in August 1944 and the only thing that kept Thersienstadt from being liquidated at that point was that the Nazis wanted to finish the film. But Theresienstadt, like Łódź was due to be liquidated. Eppstein had more trust in the SS man Moess than in his own Jewish colleagues. CR 60 18:11:15 Eppstein was of no more use to the SS, so Moess set a trap for him. After his Rosh Hashanah speech, Eppstein was told he must admit that there were spies (who had parachuted in, like Hannah Szenes) hidden in the ghetto. Murmelstein is of the opinion that the text of the speech was agreed upon with Moess beforehand. Eichmann informed Murmelstein that he would change places with Eppstein, who was at another ghetto. Murmelstein knew what that meant because he knew that Eppstein was already dead. Guenther insisted on keeping him until after the Red Cross visit. FILM ID 3176 -- Camera Rolls #61-62 -- 19:00:00 to 19:22:31 Transports from Theresienstadt had begun before Murmelstein took over from Eppstein. He criticizes Eppstein and Edelstein, who exempted certain people and replaced them with others, sometimes more people than were necessary. People in the ghetto did not want to believe what happened at Auschwitz. They knew only of the family camp there and that Auschwitz was worse than Theresienstadt. The people in the ghetto did not learn the truth about Auschwitz until they were told by Slovakians in the summer of 1944. Murmelstein again criticizes Leo Baeck. He says that when the Danish Jews arrived in 1943 they reacted strongly to the smell of gas in their newly disinfected barracks. This should have been a warning but the inhabitants of Theresienstadt did not take it seriously. Murmelstein insisted that there be no more exemptions and replacements on the transports, and for this reason Karl Rahm agreed to exempt some people without replacement, thus sending fewer people to Auschwitz. Lanzmann reads a quotation from Jacob Gens of Vilna. Murmelstein says that the two situations were completely different. He goes on to say that elsewhere Jewish organizations pulled a scam where they rented rooms in Theresienstadt, advertising them as having baths, or being on the sunny side of the building. The money ended up going to Eichmann. Murmelstein says that this did not happen in Vienna and nor did the Jewish leaders participate in organizing deportations from Vienna. FILM ID 3177 -- Camera Rolls #63,65 -- 20:00:05 to 20:14:07 Murmelstein continues to defend the actions of the Kultusgemeinde in Vienna, saying that they did not help with the deportations nor did they lie to the Jews about conditions in Theresienstadt. Murmelstein says that he also refused to prepare deportation lists in Theresienstadt, despite threats from the SS. He points out that Theresienstadt was the only ghetto that was not liquidated and he deserves some credit for that. The filming moves outside in front of the Titus Arch, apparently at Murmelstein's request. Zdenek Lederer, another Theresienstadt survivor, compared Murmelstein to Flavius, who collaborated with the Romans, and to Herod. Murmelstein wrote a book about Flavius. FILM ID 3178 -- Camera Rolls #63A,64,64A,65AM -- 21:00:03 to 21:11:20 Mute shots of Murmelstein outside near the Arch of Titus. FILM ID 3179-- Camera Rolls #66-67 -- 22:00:00 to 22:22:24 [Sound is bad at the beginning of the tape but then improves] Filming outside in front of the Arch of Titus, Lanzmann reads a quote from Lederer about Murmelstein and Josefus Flavius. Murmelstein wants to move on from this topic and says he can't be responsible for everything that was ever written about him. Nonetheless, they continue to discuss Flavius. Murmelstein returns again to the class he taught in Vienna in 1942. His students were university faculty members who were also Nazis. He gave eight or ten of them weekly lessons in Judaism. He showed them a Tallith and explained the significance of it. He also showed them where it had been damaged during Kristallnacht. He says that he can be condemned but not judged, that the Judenaelteste should not have survived the war, they are an uncomfortable remnant, like dinosaurs on the Autobahn. He compares himself to Scheherezade, saying that had the duty to report the tale of the "Judenparadies" (Theresienstadt]. He says that reports of his death were "wishful thinking" by those whom he witnessed in uncomfortable situations during the war. They wanted to believe that he, who had seen them at their worst, was dead. Lanzmann says that he read a quote from Murmelstein in a Swiss newspaper where he called himself "der letzte der Ungerechten." Murmelstein thinks that the Israelis still practice "Judenratpolitik." He mentions the Bermuda Conference (April 1943). Lanzmann asks him who has the right to judge him and he says the Czech court of Leitmeritz. Lanzmann asks why he was arrested and he says that being a Judenaelteste was reason enough. After eight months the prosecutor declared that he could find no evidence against him. FILM ID 3180 -- Camera Rolls #68-69 -- 23:00:00 to 23:22:23 Filming outside in front of the Arch of Titus, Murmelstein describes Rahm's trial and makes the point that he was considered a reliable witness in the trial. He says that despite the fact that he testified against Rahm, Rahm told an interviewer that Murmelstein was not a traitor and did not denounce anyone. This exoneration was never published. Lanzmann asks why Murmelstein came to Rome instead of to Israel, to which Murmelstein answers that he was afraid of being tried again. He says that he worked hard at lowly jobs, even though he didn't need to because people offered him money. He was accused of converting to Christianity, which was the only accusation that really hurt him. Lanzmann says that (Gershon or Gerhard) Scholem wrote that Murmelstein should have been hanged. Murmelstein replies that Scholem is a great scholar but does not always do his research. He says there are many sources about Murmelstein: the Red Cross archive, the Rahm trial, the Murmelstein trial, the Eichmann trial. He points out that Scholem was one of those who protested against Eichmann's execution. He says that he does not believe that his portrayal in Lanzmann's film will change the minds of those who are already against him. Lanzmann asks him why he agreed to be interviewed, and after referring to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, he says that he has a spirit of adventure and is not fearful of talking about his public position. FILM ID 3181 -- Camera Rolls #65A,62AM,69A -- 14:30:03 to 14:30:56 and 14:32:32 to 14:33:51 Mute reverse angle shots of Lanzmann. Mute shots of Murmelstein walking along the streets of Rome. FILM ID 3182 -- Camera Rolls #71-72 -- 01:30:04 to 01:48:18 Murmelstein talks about his life in Rome, beginning in 1947. He was boycotted and otherwise persecuted, but he persevered. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein how he feels about threats to Israel or whether he is happy when Israel wins wars. Murmelstein says of course he is happy but he disputes the basis for asking such questions. He refuses "with indignation" to answer whether he thought he would have made a good leader in Israel. Murmelstein says that the Judenaelteste were so hated because all of the Jews' dealings with the Nazis went through the Judenaelteste. He says he introduced the 70 hour work week because the ghetto was in ruins after the October deportations. The 70 hour work week was his idea and he did not blame it on Rahm. Murmelstein says his philosophy was to keep people working and keep the ghetto in order, which Lanzmann likens to the philosophy of Rumkowski and Gens of Vilna. TAPE 3183 -- Camera Rolls #73-74 -- 02:30:02 to 02:52:30 Murmelstein talks about his policy of allowing births in the ghetto; he allowed them and Eppstein did not. Thirteen of the children who were born in Theresienstadt survived. Lanzmann says that when Murmelstein speaks of Theresienstadt he does not get a feeling of the misery and desperation of the place, only of the organizational details. Murmelstein says that his worst memory was of clearing the urns in the Columbarium, which contained the ashes of the dead. He knew this meant the Germans were planning to liquidate the ghetto. He says that despite what people think now, there was a top secret plan to build gas chambers in Theresienstadt, and when he heard about the plan he went to Rahm to tell him that the Jews would revolt at the mention of gas chambers. Rahm called off the plan. Murmelstein lied to Rahm about who told him about the gas chambers -- he gave the name of Rahm's favorite instead of the person who actually told him, knowing that Rahm would not punish his favorite. He frames this as a typical dlilemma that faced a Judenaelteste. Murmelstein says that Rahm admitted at his sentencing that there had been a plan to install gas chambers at Theresienstadt, for the liquidation of the Small Fortress (kleine Festung). FILM ID 3184 -- Camera Rolls #75-76 -- 03:30:05 to 03:52:24 Lanzmann asks Murmelstein whether he was anti-democratic and had a fascist temperament. Murmelstein answers that he disapproved of the first and the second Jewish councils, and that he closed the courts. He makes the argument that the Jewish council, whose members were named by the SS, was itself anti-democratic. These members and their friends and families were protected from deportation. He explains some of his disagreements with the members of the first council and describes some of the ridiculous policies and disagreements that occurred. He speaks disparagingly of Leo Baeck, who could never forgive Murmelstein for his obvious disdain for the council. Undemocratic as the process was, it was more merciful for him to judge peoples' crimes than for the cases to go through the courts, because "behind the court stood the Kommandatur." He continues to explain his method of avoiding German involvement in the criminal justice system. Murmelstein was blamed for the confiscation of the Red Cross and other packages that were sent to the Jews in Theresienstadt. He says the first question that Red Cross officials asked him in April 1945 was about the packages. TAPE 3185 -- Camera Rolls #77-79 -- 04:30:04 to 04:52:22 Lanzmann mentions the fact that the interview has now lasted four days and he finds himself wondering whether he is making a film about the Shoah or a film about Dr. Murmelstein. Murmelstein talks about his early life and his parents. He went to a rabbinical school and studied mathematics. He studied oriental languages at the University of Vienna. He says he is not sure why he became a rabbi. Murmelstein says that he was only prominent because of his involvement with Eichmann. Otherwise he would not have been prominent then, just as he is not now. Lanzmann asks again whether he desired power, and then whether he was somehow impressed by the power wielded by the Nazis. Lanzmann asks about his relationship with Rahm, and Murmelstein says Rahm never forgot that in 1938 or 1939 Eichmann told him to bring a chair for Murmelstein to sit on. Their relationship in Theresienstadt worked fairly well, although there were bad times, such as the October transports. He says that for a woman to become pregnant was not forbidden as it was in other ghettos, and that 13 of the 213 children born in Theresienstadt survived. FILM ID 3186 -- Camera Rolls #80-82 -- 05:30:05 to 05:52:28 Rahm instructed Murmelstein that he needed reports from Theresienstadt, complete with denunciations, and told him that he had received such reports from Murmelstein's predecessors. The reports that Murmelstein gave him contained denunciations only of Murmelstein himself. Rahm was imprisoned for the first time after the war in 1947. Murmelstein said he convinced Rahm not to execute the last Jews left in the ghetto. He urged Rahm to escape at the end in order to ease tension in the ghetto. Murmelstein tells of the final days before liberation. Rahm summoned him and turned over a bank account in Bauschowitz, which contained money for the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Murmelstein how he decided to take on the responsibility for the beautification of the ghetto (before the Red Cross visit in 1944). He says that the beautification resulted in real improvements in the conditions of the ghetto, despite the fact that the project enabled Nazi propaganda. He says the other members of the Council considered him a Falstaff but he was more of a Sancho Panza. Once Theresienstadt was shown to someone (the Red Cross) then it could not disappear. He saw the "prostitution" of the ghetto as necessary. His workers wanted to sabotage their work but he forbade it. He says that Eppstein and not he was responsible for the cultural activities depicted in the film. He describes Epptein's role as that of a petty prince. He says that he is convinced that the city beautifcation led to the continued existence of the ghetto. He lists the raw materials received by the ghetto in preparation for the filming. He says that showing the ghetto in the film meant that "they were not hiding us. If they hid us, then they could kill us." He says that the Red Cross would not have come if the city beautification had not taken place, and that he raised an alarm with the Red Cross when they were leaving (?). He mistakenly refers to the 1942 Theresienstadt film as "Der Fuehrer schenkt den Juden eine Stadt" and says that he was not in Thereseinstadt when the 1942 film was made. Murmelstein says again that he appeared with Eppstein in one scene, but because Eppstein was murdered the scene was cut. Murmellstein got in an argument with Guenther when Guenther asked Murmelstein how he liked the film and Murmelstein said that he did not like it at all, because the people were not shown working. FILM ID 3187 -- Camera Rolls #83-87 -- 06:30:03 to 06:52:35 The city beautification for the Theresienstadt film also included deporting the sick and the crippled. Lanzmann asks whether there was a resistance movement in Theresienstadt and Murmelstein says there was moral resistance but no armed resistance. Lanzmann asks if there was resistance against the Aeltestenrat. Murmelstein denies this was the case and talks instead about artists who painted true-to-life scenes of Theresienstadt and hid their paintings. He says in all of Bohemia their was no resistance and the Jews were certainly not in a position to resist. Murmelstein and Lanzmann look at a book together. The book contains an illustration (drawn by Edelstein?) which depicts the ghetto as a sieve during the arrival of a transport of elderly Jews in 1942. The younger Jews fall through the sieve into Auschwitz. Murmelstein explains that Edelstein felt compelled to save the younger Czech Jews (to whom he had made a promise) by deporting the older ones. Edelstein's argument was the the younger Jews could work and make the ghetto function. Eichmann had intended to let the older Jews stay in Theresienstadt (and deport the younger Jews?). Lanzmann points out that by the time Murmelstein became head of the Council there were very few young people left, and Murmelstein says something further in defence of Edelstein. FILM ID 3188 -- Camera Rolls #88-92 -- 07:30:02 to 07:52:35 Lanzmann shows Murmelstein the same illustration depicting a transport of elderly Jews arriving at the ghetto from Germany in 1942, while young Jews are transported to Auschwitz. The book in which the illustration appears is "Die Verheimlichte Wahrheit" [The Secret Truth] by H. G. Adler and contains a report from Edelstein about the ghetto. Edelstein wanted to deport the older people, in order to keep his promise to the younger Jews from Prague (this was in 1942, before Murmelstein arrived at Theresienstadt). Murmelstein says that the older people should not have been shipped all at once, but rather in several transports, so that individuals could have been removed from the transports. Murmelstein says that at the time they knew nothing of Sobibor and Chelmno, and they knew Birkenau only as a family camp. He tells the story of the children from Bialystok (he does not give the exact number but there were approximately 1200), who arrived in Theresienstadt in August 1943. These children were to be allowed to go to Palestine in exchange for Germans interned in Allied countries, but some of them got sick and they were deported to Auschwitz in October, along with the doctor and nurse who had cared for them. Lanzmann asks him to repeat the story and Murmelstein adds that the children cried "gas!" when they saw the showers in Theresienstadt. After the deportation of the sick children, Eppstein informed the ghetto residents that the remaining children would be shipped to the West and asked for volunteers to accompany them. One of the volunteers was Franz Kafka's sister, Ottla. The train went to Auschwitz instead of to Palestine. The Danish Jews who arrived shortly afterwards also knew about the gas chambers at Auschwitz but Murmelstein continues to insist that he didn't know anything. Lanzmann says that before he met Murmelstein he had a negative impression of him and asks whether Murmelstein thinks history can be written by relying soley on documents. FILM ID 3189 -- Camera Rolls #93-96 -- 08:30:04 to 08:47:59 Still addressing the question of whether history can be written using only documents, Murmelstein criticizes Adler's manipulation of documents in his book on Theresienstadt. He also criticizes other books that contain falsehoods about him. He says that the use of Jews to make soap is as awful as using them for political purposes. He tells of a young man who asked him to help avoid deportation and then told him joyfully that it was his father who was to be deported, not him. Murmelstein reprimanded him and after the war the man wrote a book in which he denounced Murmelstein. Murmelstein says he tried to prevent people from volunteering to go with their family members because he thought it was senseless. Lanzmann suggests that the two of them make a trip to Israel together. Murmelstein tells Lanzmann to leave the subject alone. He says that he has made mistakes but has paid for them by living in the desert, but if Italy is his desert he doesn't have much to complain about. FILM ID 3190, part 1 -- Camera Rolls #21B,21D,64B -- 09:30:00 to 09:42:11 Silent CUs of Lanzmann on the balcony listening to Murmelstein. He smokes and nods his head periodically. Murmelstein's gesturing hand appear in the frame. 09:35:00 silent interior shots of Lanzmann sitting on the couch. He looks at papers and listens to Murmelstein. Lanzmann pages through a book with several bookmarks. FILM ID 3190, part 2 -- Camera Rolls #21,26A,69A,27 -- 10:30:00 to 10:37:25 Silent shots of the setting sun from the balcony. Shots of Murmelstein, includling the back of his head. Daylight again -- panning shots of Rome rooftops and pigeons. FILM ID 3190, part 3 -- Camera Rolls #26A -- 11:30:00 to 11:30:27 Silent shot of Angelika Schrobsdorff, Lanzmann's interpreter (and wife) in profile, wearing sunglasses. FILM ID 3190, part 4 -- Camera Rolls #34A -- 12:30:04 to 12:30:21 Silent CU of Murmelstein's hands holding several typed and handwritten pieces of paper. FILM ID 3190, part 5 -- Camera Rolls #30A -- 13:30:03 to 13:31:28 Silent CU of Murmelstein on the balcony, listening to Lanzmann.

    Henryk Gawkowski and Treblinka railway workers

    Henryk Gawkowski and Treblinka railway workers

    Film

    Henryk Gawkowski was a locomotive conductor at the Treblinka station and estimates that he transported approximately 18,000 Jews to the camp. He drank vodka all the time because it was the only way to make bearable his job and the smell of burning corpses. He describes the black market and the prostitution that developed around the camp. This interview also includes conversations with several other Polish witnesses who were railway workers. FILM ID 3362 -- Camera Rolls #4-7 -- 01:00:00 to 01:13:26 Gawkowski and a Polish choir sing "W mogile ciemnej ?pij na wieki," a Gregorian-chant style funeral march written by Aleksander Orlowski, in a church accompanied by an organ. FILM ID 3363 -- Camera Rolls #8-10 -- 02:00:00 to 02:31:52 CR8 Gawkowski explains his job as an assistant machinist/conductor on the locomotive. He went to Treblinka three times a week. Initially he transported gravel, after the creation of Treblinka he transported Jews. He tells how he would push the rail cars into the camp. He transported Jews from many different cities (talks of Bialystok and Warsaw). 02:10:49 CR9 Gawkowski describes the loading of the Jews from the Warsaw ghetto onto the trains (not the Umschlagsplatz). He personally drove approximately 15-20 convoys, with 60 cars per convoy, 120-200 people per car, with an estimated total of 18,000 people, into Treblinka. It was required that German Gestapo accompany each transport. He says he transported Jews from France, Greece, Holland and Yugoslavia into the camp; his first transport was of Greek Jews. 02:22:05 CR10 Gawkowski talks about the first transport he drove, a convoy of Greek Jews. He recalls that it was passenger train, not a cargo train, and that they were accompanied by the German police, not the Gestapo. He knew what their fate was going to be, so while passing part of the train, he made a gesture (of slicing the neck) to let them know. They understood and it caused an uproar on the train. People started trying to get off the train and flee, they threw their children. Some might have escaped. Gawkowski maintains that foreign Jews were usually transported in passenger cars, while the Polish Jews arrived in commodity cars. He describes the scene of a foreign Jew who had stepped off of the train to buy something, trying to catch the train as it pulled away. Polish railworkers told him what he was running towards and he escaped. 02:31:22 Picture cuts out a few times. FILM ID 3364 -- Camera Rolls #11-13 -- 03:00:00 to 03:22:03 CR11 Lanzmann asks Gawkowski where he lived during this period. He lived in Malkinia, in the same house they are sitting in. Lanzmann gets cut off asking his next question. 03:01:05 CR12 Gawkowski explains the process of how he would transport Jews. He lived in Malkinia, he would receive an order/itinerary to transport regular goods (i.e. ammunition, fuel) to the East; he would then receive another order with fake numbers to transport 'goods' back, only this time the goods were Jews. He didn't know beforehand what he would be transporting, but he knew what the special trains (Sonderzug) held. He witnessed the loading of a convoy in Bialystok from a distance, how they packed them in and beat them. 03:11:22 CR13 Lanzmann asks how Gawkowski how he felt while taking a convoy of Jews to their deaths, how he was able to deal with it. Gawkowski says that it was very difficult, but that the Germans would give them alcohol. He explains how he would drink it all because being drunk was the only way to make it bearable, to help with the smell. He goes on to describe the smell. The Gestapo rode the trains with their guns pointed at them; his only thought was to arrive at Treblinka. Gawkowski explains how those that drove the deportees would receive a special bonus, paid in alcohol, typically vodka. He tells that they would go slow, to give people the possibility of escape; they would make excuses for going slow (i.e. mechanical problems). He could hear the Jews in the cars behind him, they usually were crying for water. Picture cuts out at 03:16:25 to 03:16:31 FILM ID 3365 -- Camera Rolls #14-16 -- 04:00:00 to 04:22:25 CR14 Lanzmann brings up survivors' accounts that the convoys of Jews always traveled very slowly, that other convoys (i.e. military, passenger, etc) always took precedence, forcing the Jewish convoys to wait on sidetracks. Gawkowski says that was rare, but it did happen when the Russians started to counter-attack. They discuss the distances between Bialystok, Warsaw and Treblinka. Gawkowski tells how difficult it was for him to drive the convoys, but that it was impossible to refuse, because that meant death. His cousin was sent to Treblinka for not going to work. Lanzmann asks how many Polish train operators there were. Tape stops in mid-question. 04:06:15 CR15 Gawkowski is not sure how many Poles had to participate in the transports, there were several groups of them and they all had to. There was a schedule of trains, but often there were unscheduled or unexpected trains that operated outside their normal hours. These were 'ghost' trains because they didn't exist. The train operators would be summoned at a given time and then be forced to wait for eleven hours at the depot, as a 'reserve' in case of these trains. Military trains also operated outside their normal hours. He also drove regular passenger trains during this time, they also ran through the Treblinka train station. 04:11:12 CR16 Lanzmann and Gawkowski discuss the proximity between regular passenger trains and convoys carrying Jews at the Treblinka train station. The Jewish convoys waited on a separate side track, close enough that the other passengers could see what was going on. Gawkowski says that everyone in the area knew what was going on, what was happening to the Jews. He talks of the smell again, the horrible smell of dead bodies decomposing. Even in Malkinia, when the wind blew, one could smell it. It was especially bad in the morning and evening, when there was dew. He says the only way they were able to live with the smell was to drink, it was necessary. Picture cuts out at 04:22:20, sound a few seconds later. FILM ID 3366 -- Camera Rolls #17,18 -- 05:00:00 to 05:22:30 CR17 Gawkowski was 20-21 years old at the time; this is why he remembers everything so well. Sound cuts in and out between 05:03:25 and 05:03:38. He vividly remembers the first transport of Greek Jews. Picture cuts out 05:05:49 to 05:06:11. He drove transports two to three times per week, for a year and a half-basically the entire time the camp was in existence. He explains how the convoys would be divided into thirds because the entire train wouldn't fit into the camp. The remaining cars waited at the Treblinka station; he would push the divided convoy into the camp. That was the worst for him, because he knew it was the end for the Jews on the train. Lanzmann briefly asks about the type of locomotives used. 05:11:00 CR18 Lanzmann asks if he has nightmares. Gawkowski replies that he does, he's relived the experience more than once. He tells Lanzmann that he sees the train cars in front of him, pushing them into the camp. When the cars opened, it was Jews, not Germans who dealt with the arriving Jews. He could see the inside of the camp, but he wasn't sure exactly where the gas chambers were, however he knew they were close. He saw Stangen, the camp commandant, amongst other SS officers. He spoke with some of the Ukrainians, they would give him wads of money in exchange for vodka, chocolate and liquor. He would lose it gambling. They discuss the amount of money and the currency used, along with where it came from. Picture cuts out at 05:22:07, sound a few seconds later. FILM ID 3367 -- Camera Rolls #19-21 -- 06:00:00 to 06:30:20 CR19 Lanzmann and Gawkowski discuss the trafficking that was going on between locals, outsiders from Warsaw and the Ukrainians in the camp. Mrs. Gawkowski also trafficked goods on the Russian/German border. They discuss the prostitutes that came because of the camp, where they stayed and if any are still living in the area. Lanzmann wants to know more about the gold that was used as currency by the Ukrainians. Gawkowski knew that people had gold teeth and that after liberation locals around the camp dug up the ground and found gold. They go back to discussing the prostitutes and their fate. Gawkowski believes they all left; after the war some were convicted by army courts and executed. Lanzmann wants to know if people discussed the fate of the Jews. Gawkowski says they did, amongst themselves. The priest also gave his opinion on it. Picture cuts out last few seconds. 06:11:23 CR20 Lanzmann asks Gawkowski what the Jews could have done to stop what was happening to them. Gawkowski thinks that maybe if contact between the camp and the Polish resistance had been closer, something could have been done. He also mentions the revolt that took place in Treblinka. Lanzmann asks him if he knew any Jews prior to the war, he tells of a few that he went to primary school with. Gawkowski tries to explain what happened to the Jews in his town and surrounding area; most escaped over the Russian border, those that stayed were placed in ghettos and soon killed. 06:22:32 CR21 Lanzmann tries to ask Gawkowski what fault he thinks the 6 million murdered Jews atoned for, Gawkowski believes they were innocent, that the fault lies with the government. Lanzmann then asks about the presence of Polish antisemitism before the war, Gawkowski doesn't think it existed where he lived. He goes on to talk about the Jewish population, their religious/holiday observances, the synagogue, the visit of a great rabbi and their interaction with Catholics. End of interview. FILM ID 3818 -- Camera Rolls #22-30 Interview Voie Ferree Barbra Janica, the interpeter, stands with Lanzmann and Gawkowski beside a railway car. They begin walking, speaking in French and German. They stop to look below the train. (2:30) Lanzmann and Gawkowski are seated beside the train tracks. Train arrives in the station. A sign says “Treblinka” on the left. (4:36) The group stands on the train tracks, speaking rapidly, pointing towards the distance. Some of the men smoke. Teenagers and small children standing around listening to the conversation. FILM ID 3743 -- Treblinka 18 -- TR 22-25 (audio only) Interview begins at 00:01:00, beginning of TR 23. Lanzmann, his translator Barbara, and Gawkowski walk along the railroad tracks upon which Gawkowski once conducted trains to Treblinka. Lanzmann asks Gawkowski to point out which tracks existed during the occupation and which have been built since. Gawkowski explains that the train station is exactly the same as it was during the war, besides the new switch system. 00:02:40 The interview becomes difficult to hear as the microphone is distanced from the conversation. 00:02:55 End of TR 23 00:03:15 TR 24 Lanzmann and Gawkowski continue to discuss the changes to the track system as they walk; very little has changed since the war. Gawkowski explains that four of the five platforms of the Treblinka station existed at the time, and that trains destined for the camp would stop at all but the main platform before arriving at the camp, because the platform at the camp itself could only accommodate 20 train cars at a time. 00:06:25 TR 25 Gawkowski and several other train conductors debate whether one of the train platforms existed during the war; all of the men talk over each other and it is difficult to understand what is going on; one man points out where they used to risk their lives to give water to Jews on the trains; several of the men in the group, including Gawkowski's brother-in-law, conducted trains during the war; they describe the arrival of transports of Jews to the Treblinka station. One man explains that his brother and sister were killed by Nazis; he describes watching Jews jump out of the train windows; he watched a woman and her infant jump from the train, and a German shoot her in the chest; the man becomes emotional and struggles to continue to tell the story; he explains that after the Jews, the Poles would have been next to be exterminated. FILM ID 3744 -- Treblinka 19 -- TR26-30 (audio only) 00:00:26 TR 26. Continuation of an interview with Gawkowski and several other train conductors, on the train tracks near the Treblinka station; Lanzmann asks them to point out the location of the track turnoff toward the Treblinka camp, and they explain that it no longer exists but that it was several meters from them, beyond a semaphore signal post; one gentleman explains that next to the extermination camp there was a work camp, a gravel pit where Poles who would not give their products to the Nazis were forced to work and where they were so exhausted that they would die standing up; some words are spoken in German; Lanzmann asks the men whether they remember the smell of Treblinka; they reply that in the evening, the smell was so bad that for two years, they did not eat dinner, and the wind carried for several kilometers 00:06:38 End of TR 26. TR 27, 28, 29 are background noise around the train station 00:09:11 TR 30 Lanzmann asks the men why Ukrainian workers at Treblinka were known to sing; one replies that it was because they were paid with money taken from the Jews; one man makes a signal with his hand (possibly of slitting his throat), and explains that it was the signal did this to the Jews when they arrived on the trains, to warn them of what was coming; the men explain that when the Jews saw that sign, they would try to escape from the trains however possible; one man says that many escaped that way and survived, and Lanzmann argues with him, saying that none survived. FILM ID 3368 -- Camera Rolls #71 -- 07:00:07 to 07:10:25 Gawkowski standing on a locomotive. Picture cuts out briefly at 07:00:23. Gawkowski explains the layout of the tracks where they are standing. They are close to Treblinka. He also tries to explain how the landscape was different. Lanzmann wants to know why Gawkowski appears so sad. He explains that it's because men went to their deaths here. It makes him feel sick, because they killed innocent people, even babies. He saw them bash babies against the wheels of the train. He secretly gave water to the Jews on the train, despite the risk of death for doing so. Picture cuts out at 07:10:11 to end. FILM ID 3370 -- 3 int. loco -- 09:00:00 to 09:07:12 Footage of Gawkowski operating a train. Shots of shoveling coal, blowing the whistle, driving down the track, steam valves, etc. No conversation. Picture cuts out 09:06:11 to 09:06:33, and at 09:06:48. FILM ID 3371 -- 3bis entre engage train -- 10:00:00 to 10:19:34 Shot of train coming down track, stopping next to the Treblinka station sign. Break from 10:01:50 to 10:01:59. Repeat, train coming down track, stopping next to the Treblinka station sign, with Gawkowski leaning out the side of the engine. Break from 10:05:22 to 10.05:38. Repeat, train coming down track, ends at 10:07:56. Repeat, train coming down track, with Gawkowski hanging out the side of the engine, ends at 10:10:40. Train is stationary next to the Treblinka sign, with intermittent CUs of Lanzmann and Gawkowski leaning out of the engine, ends at 10:13:33. Shot of train coming down an open stretch of track, whistling. Picture cuts out from 10:15:34 to 10:16:09. Brief shot of train, Tr. 73. Picture cuts out again from 10:16:11 to 10:16:31. Brief shot of train track. Cuts again 10:16:35 to 10:16:49. Shot of train entering Treblinka station. Picture cuts out from 10:17:54 to 10:19:00. Resumes with train parked next to Treblinka station sign. FILM ID 3372 -- 3ter derriere le loco -- 11:00:00 to 11:12.04.00. Camera positioned behind Gawkowski as he leans out of the moving train. The frame at 11:01:19:07 is very close to the jacket cover of the final film. Picture cuts out 11:04:45 to 11:05:02 and again from 11:05:04 to 11:05:14. Sporadic shots on top of and inside train. Picture cuts out from 11:06:06 to 11:06:42. Cuts out again from 11:06:56 to 11:07:16. Random clips of Gawkowski driving train through the countryside, CUs of different parts of the train. Picture cuts out at 11:11:46.

    Warsaw

    Warsaw

    Film

    Location filming in Warsaw, Poland for SHOAH. Scenes include the ghetto, Mila 18, the cemetery, the railway station, and archival documents and photographs. FILM ID 4709 -- White 39A Varsovie La Gare VAR 61-66 Ticket counter in Warsaw's train station. (00:34) The train schedule. (3:36) A sign that reads: “Gornik. Warszawa WSCH. Częstochowa-Katowice- Gliwice.” The sign is on a train moving out of the station platform. A man is leaning outside the window of the train. (6:00) Trains go past the platform. FILM ID 4710 -- White 39B Varsovie Ville Clapperboard reads: “Varsovie Ghetto.” A monument in a park. (00:48) People walking around in the city next to the park. (3:56) A sign that says: Mordechaja Anielewicza.” (4:48) A sign that says: “cmentarz żydowski w warszawie,” [Jewish Cemetery in Warsaw] as well as the hours it is open. (5:21) Rows and rows of headstones in a cemetery. (8:42) CU, headstone of Adam Czerniakow. Prezes Ghetta Warszawskiego. Zmarl dn. 23 Lipca 1942 R. [President of the Warsaw Ghetto, died on July 23, 1942.] (8.56) The entirety of Czerniakow’s large tombstone. FILM ID 4711 -- White 40 Varsovie Archives Footage of archives: a map showing the Ghetto borders. (1.57) A sign in German demanding the relocation of Jews that do not work for companies; those that volunteer will get three kilograms of bread and one kilogram of jam. It is also promised that families that volunteer together will not be separated. (2:30) A black and white photograph of Bund leader Dr. Leon Fajner. “Mikolaj” 1886-1945. Przywodca Bundu. 2:54) Black and white photograph of Czerniakow in his ghetto office behind a desk with candelabra. (3:20) Clapperboard. Several black and white photographs of Germans with their names and designations written below in pen. (6.16) Nazis with two men in shawls next to a brick wall. (6:31) A black and white photo of a Nazi soldier kneeling with a German shepherd. (7:31) Black and white photograph of men, women, and children getting onto tall carts. Some of them have stars on their jackets. (7.56) Nazi oversees a crowd of people by railcars. (8.12) Nazi soldiers stand in front of a train as people start to get off. (11:58) A black and white photograph of a room filled with shoes. (12:33) Black and white photo of men carrying a body in a white sheet in a cemetery. (12:44) Men standing in a field holding shovels. (12:57) Three engraved cups and two seals. (13:12) Deep burial pit filled with bodies. (13:38) Man sitting alone in a field surrounded by a wire fence. His head is resting on his hands. (13:48) Several black and white photos of Nazis (15:26) Several headshots of men. (16:18) Children sitting at desks in a classroom with a teacher. (17:00) Men stand in front of a large pile of shoes. (17:29) Man brushes the side of a tank with a broom. (17:42) Photo of a man with star badge kneeling on a pile of spokes before a crowd. (17:53) Cutting the hair and beards of two men. (18:08) Long line of people with armbands walk down a city street, carrying heavy bags. (18:45) Large group in a courtyard. (19:11) Women waving goodbye from a ship. (19:22) Black and white photograph of men standing in lines around a courtyard. (19:43) Ten men have been hanged above a pit. (19:56) Rows and rows of skulls and bones. (20:22) A black and white photograph of four corpses. (21:08) People in a line next to a pit. (21:33) Hanged man. (21:48) A black and white photograph of men walking on a road with small children. (21:59) House on fire. FILM ID 4712 -- White 79 Varsovie Mila 18 Anielewicz Warsaw city street, cars parked on both sides. Apartment buildings. (1:43) Sign on the building: “Miła 18 MSM. Starowka.” (3:36) Driving around. (10:44) A man is walking behind a car pushing it down the road while someone else sits in the driver's seat. (13:13) A man pushes a stroller down the street. (15:34) A street sign that says “Mordechaja Anielewicza,” one way and “Esperanto,” another. FILM ID 4713 -- White 80 Varsovie Franciszkanska Two street signs: “Bonifrałerska” and “Franciszkanska”. Cabinet filled with photos on the wall. A city street with cars driving. (1:46) Kids and adults walk by the cabinet. (3:25) A corner of a wall with “Wałowa” and “Franciszkanska”. Women walk down the sidewalk surrounded by tall buildings and a grassy area. (5:05) A tall office building with “Intraco” on the top. Pedestrians, cars, buses. (9:58) Focus on the sign “Franciszkanska.” (10:57) “Taxi” sign and parked cars. (13:43) “Franciszkanska” sign next to a bookshop. (14:34) Crowd of people stand in line in front of a door. FILM ID 4714 -- White 81 Varsovie Trams. Rue. Chutes. Tram tracks with cars and pedestrians. A tram goes by. (1:25) Many people walk across a crosswalk in front of a tram. (2:42) Warsaw city scenes. “Konfekcja” (4:04) Tram tracks. Trams go by. FILM ID 4715 -- White 82.83 Varsovie Rappoport.Plaques.Wovolipki.Wolnosk Park in front of tall buildings. A crowd of people stand in a courtyard. Rappoport Memorial covered in scaffolding. Wreaths at the base. (6:58) Aerial view of Warsaw. People, cars, trams. (8:09) “warszawa centralna” [Warsaw Central] building. (9:08) Tall, ornate building. (9:38) A tram goes by next to an underground walkway and throughout the city. (11:40) More buildings in Warsaw. (16:15) Street scenes. Sign says “Nowolipie.” (16:47) “Zylnia” and “Zelazna.” (20:52) Men stand next to a car talking. Beside them is a small, red memorial with a large cross. (22:43) Apartment buildings with lights on in the evening. (23:43) An overgrown field, with an old three-story building. (25:40) A sign: “Ul. Nowolipki 40.” (27:13) Cobblestone street. (27.42) “Wolnosc.” (29:02) Going into a building and the open courtyard behind. FILM ID 4716 -- White 84 Varsovie Cimetiere Monument Vistule Warsaw city in the distance. (1:19) Vistula river. (3:14) Train. (5:55) Memorial on a wall in Polish and Hebrew: “Z tego miejsca W latach 1942x1943 Hitlerowscy Ludobojcy wywiezli na meczenska smierc do obozow zaglady setki tysiecy sydow. czesc pamieci meczennikow I bojownikow” [From this place In the years 1942x1943, the Nazis took hundreds of thousands of Jews to death in the death camps. In memory of the martyrs and Jewish fighters.] (6:56) A gas station beside a street with tram tracks. (9:00) The memorial. (10:01) Cemetery with graves with Hebrew writing.

    Lublin and Majdanek

    Lublin and Majdanek

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in Lublin and Majdanek camp for SHOAH. FILM ID 4641 -- Lublin Ville (white 11) Empty streets and alleyways in Lublin. FILM ID 4642 -- Majdanek (white 12) Outer perimeter of the concentration camp, Majdanek. Some interior shots. (06:46) Tour group. (10:50) Lanzmann stands in a clearing, speaking French. Camera focuses on interiors. (25:33) Driving around the perimeter of the camp.

    Bedrich Bass - Prague

    Bedrich Bass - Prague

    Film

    Bedrich Bass discusses the present-day Jewish community in Czechoslovakia and the cost of maintaining the old Jewish cemetery in Prague. FILM ID 3888 -- 1,2 son seuls (audio only) FILM ID 3889 -- 4-6

    Belzec

    Belzec

    Film

    Location filming in Belzec, Poland for SHOAH. Film ID 4707 -- Belzec 22-23 Gare. Camp Doubles, Chutes Bte 22 Camp Travelling down a road, trees on either side. Train tracks. Road leads to a metal gate. (1.57) “1942-1943” on the gate. (2.19) Driving down the same road as before, this time getting a clear view of a sign on the right that says “Do Bylego Obozu Zaglady” [to the extermination camp.] Sign includes shield with two swords. (4.41) Railroad tracks and large piles of chopped wood in the BG, CUs. (5.21) Train tracks and old train cars (not on the tracks but beside them). Path of the tracks and the surrounding area. Sequence repeats several times. (6.42) A black locomotive with red details. A flock of ducks waddles around. (7.35) A railroad switch and the track’s divergent path. (8.22) Train goes by. (9.18) Side view of piles of wood. (9.37) A sandy, hilly area. Camera moves several times to show the rest of the hill. (11.21) A walkway between two tall piles of wood. Film ID 4708 -- Belzec 22-23 Gare. Camp Doubles, Chutes Bte 23 Gare A low, teal colored building, with “Belzec” sign. (1.52) Train tracks and trains. People stand around. Station. (2.47) Smoke billows out as train pulls away from the station. (3.28) The Belzec sign. (4.06) A train moves past, smoke billowing from the locomotive. (4.39) Clapperboard: “Bob 95.” Another clapperboard: “Bel 1.” (4.49) A large garden in the countryside. Tracks and railcars. (6.48) The sides of railcars as they move. (7.38) The backs of locomotives, some with smoke coming out of them. (7.55) A flock of ducks standing next to the train tracks. (8.50) The Belzec sign, zooming out to show the train station. (9.09) Railcars moving by. (9.16) Locomotives. A train goes by.

    Yad Vashem

    Yad Vashem

    Film

    University course-debate at Yad Vashem. Shalmi Barmore, the Director of Education, stands in front of an assembly of military students after showing a film. Barmore and several students debate the resistance actions of the Jews during the Holocaust. They show concern that the Holocaust could happen again, in any country, including Israel. A student asks why the world appeared to be uninterested in helping the Jews during the Holocaust. Another student responds that the world was aware of what was occurring, but due to the violent situation they could not do more than accept refugees. A student doesn't think remembering the Holocaust is of utmost importance, since they have personally experienced Jewish resistance during all the wars Israel has fought since World War II. Barmore asks the students if they find kinship towards Holocaust survivors, and if they consider themselves survivors as well. Most of the students respond that they personally do not consider themselves survivors of the Holocaust, but that their people are. Another students believes that the Zionist effort to create the State of Israel was independent of the Holocaust. At a request by Lanzmann, Barmore asks how many students are direct descendants of survivors. Lanzmann is surprised to see so many raised hands. Barmore asks whether they believe it is more likely for Jews to die a violent death in Israel, rather than in the Diaspora. The students respond that such a death in Israel would not be connected to their Jewishness, but a result of their poor relations with a neighboring county. FILM ID 3884 -- Yad Vashem 1-3 FILM ID 3885 -- Yad Vashem 4-5 FILM ID 3886 -- Yad Vashem 6A,6B,6D,6E,6C

    Willy Hilse (audio only)

    Film

    Willy Hilse, a railroad worker at the Auschwitz train station, describes his work and transport arrivals at Auschwitz, shipments of Jewish property, his postwar difficulties, and his reluctance to speak about his experiences again in the future. This interview was recorded in Germany without image or picture. FILM ID 3634 -- Hilse 1 Hilse describes transport arrivals at Auschwitz, including technical details such as the location of the ramp, train platforms, and the separation of men and women and witnessing the arrival of Hungarian Jews in 1944. He goes on to list the nationalities of Jews from other transports and to recall such details as the rail station sign that said "Auschwitz Train Station" and how the trains ran on a schedule. Hilse describes seeing the reactions of people as they exited the trains, his own arrival at Auschwitz in September 1941, a huge fire that burned day and night, and his work in Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks if Hilse recognizes the name "Kanada". Hilse does not, and explains the group's function. Hilse and his wife share their thoughts on how much railway workers and other people knew about Auschwitz. FILM ID 3635 -- Hilse 2 -- sound quality is poor Hilse expresses worry about the film being shown in Germany. Lanzmann says that the film is only for France and that Hilse is not at fault for wartime events at Auschwitz. Hilse says that he was questioned about his experiences before a Frankfurt judge and he and his wife explain the fallout, such as German newspapers holding him responsible for the transports and portraying him as the biggest murderer of the twentieth century. Lanzmann asks Hilse if he knew about the mass murders and, while Hilse says that he knew that trains came in every day, he says that he did not know what happened in the camp. He adds that he was glad when he was moved to the city of Oppeln because life in Auschwitz was hard for Germans and Poles as well as for Jews. Lanzmann asks if he saw shipments of Jewish property brought in and Hilse answers that he does not know of any money or jewelry, but that he once saw shipments of prisoners' shaven hair being prepared for processing. Hilse recalls that it was terribly hot when the Hungarian transports arrived and that 60-70 people were in each car (elderly people, women who had given birth, and people who had died en route). Hilse describes the conditions and cleaning of the wagons after the people were brought to camp. FILM ID 3636 -- Hilse 3 Hilse explains how trains pulled in to the Auschwitz train station, his busy work schedule keeping track of any irregularities with the trains and the station, and walking past the station twice a day. Lanzmann asks Hilse about where the trains came from, who and what kinds of items were transported, and the "special trains" [Sonderzüge] for Jews. Hilse describes the return of empty trains before Lanzmann asks if he knew the meanings of various abbreviations such as PO [Polen/ Poles] and PJ [polnische Juden/ Polish Jews]. Hilse recalls a time that a woman on a train begged him for water to give to her small child. Despite Lanzmann's further questions and his telling Hilse that he is one of the few eyewitnesses, Hilse says that he does not want to discuss his experiences any longer. Lanzmann insists that he should consider additional interview time as Hilse will earn money, but Hilse says he does not want it- instead, he wants quiet and to not be bothered about his Auschwitz experiences anymore. Lanzmann asks about Hilse's schedule the next day before telling him that he will call after Hilse and his wife attend church. Hilse asserts that he has no more to say and then begins to describe his current medical issues.

    Richard Rubenstein

    Richard Rubenstein

    Film

    Richard Rubenstein, an American professor, relates his position on stateless people, bureaucracy, and the role of churches during the Holocaust. FILM ID 3871 -- Camera Rolls TALA 1-5 Allies CR1 Professor Rubenstein begins the interview by describing the beauty of Wakulla Springs, near Tallahassee, Florida, where the interview will take place. Lanzmann asks if it is a fitting place to talk about the Holocaust, to which Rubenstein answers it is as fitting as any other place, as the Holocaust was so unnatural and destructive. 01:02:22 CR2 He implies the similarities of the sanctuary in which the bird and alligator species live to the plight of the Holocaust survivors. Lanzmann asks Rubenstein to explain the central theme of his book, which regards the stateless Jews directly preceding the Holocaust. Rubenstein believes that a fundamental step which allowed the Holocaust to occur was the Jews being denied their political rights. Normal protections provided by laws no longer applied to them. Rubenstein mentions that some people believe the Germans violated God's law. 01:11:05 CR4 This violation against God's law held no punishment as those who were regarded as interpreters of God's will did not criticize the Holocaust at the time. There was silence throughout Europe in the churches and other religious places. In some European countries before WWII, it was better to be a criminal - to be a person who was entitled to rights and treated as a human being - than to be a law-abiding stateless person. Rubenstein discusses the problems societies face with over population. Hitler studied German population movements to Argentina, and was thus aware of the strains a surplus of people would impose on the economy of a country. Rubenstein points out that Hitler, as well as Himmler, Heydrich and other leading Nazi officials, could themselves have fallen into the category of surplus urbanites. However, they seized total control and thus had the power to decide who was surplus. While Jews contributed to German society in a variety of professions, the non-Jewish lower middle class was at high risk economic instability and saw the Jews as foreigners and competitors. 01:22:17 CR5 Rubenstein disagrees with Lanzmann when he says that Western democracies showed humanitarian concern for the Jewish refugees at the Evian Conference. He believes their concern to have been for show and a means to placate one another. From 1936 to 1938, Poland sought to get rid of their Jewish population, going as far as establishing an apartheid between Christian and Jewish Poles. Lanzmann asks if the Holocaust could have been avoided had the Western powers and Latin America opened their doors. All Rubenstein can say with certainty is that the situation would have been radically different. He also believes that the British government saw the elimination of the Jews as a positive. Far fewer sought refuge in Palestine, which at the time was under British rule. FILM ID 3872 -- Camera Rolls TALA 6-10 Allies CR6 In May 1939 Britain declared, with the exception of 75,000 people over the next five years, that Jews could not enter Palestine. According to Rubenstein, this decision was a death sentence and that those responsible for the decision were just as culpable for the Holocaust as the Germans. Jewish resistance in Poland was not possible, as Jews there did not have the support of the population, who themselves also viewed the extermination of the Jews of Poland as a positive. Rubenstein also claims that Roosevelt saw a large influx of European Jews into the United States as detrimental to his political coalition, and went as far as to prevent the Jewish settlement in Palestine from achieving political independence. The bombing of Auschwitz and the railroad would have been symbolic, and would have demonstrated to the world that what the Germans were doing was horrific. As this was not done, the Germans did not see that the murder of European Jewry was a top issue with the Allies. Rubenstein explains the fundamental differences between the Jewish and Christian religions, and that that these differences led the Christians of Europe to view the Jews as dangerous to their system of beliefs. Consequently, they had to be contained, converted or expelled. CR8 01: 13:08 CR9 01:13:20 CR10 01:13:38 Although expulsion of Jewish culture and religion from Christian Europe was supported by many church leaders, they did not understand that this would involve murder. While many individuals endeavored to save Jews, the overall policy in many countries was to allow the extermination of Jews to occur. Rubenstein discusses how the Holocaust was a bureaucratic process from start to finish. It began with the legal division of Jews from their Christian German counterparts and encompassed the collaboration of the post offices, banks and railroads. One did not have to hate Jews to kill them, they simply had to perform their job under a bureaucracy. In this way, people were able to evade responsibility for what their actions ultimately did. The combination of German cold-blooded rationality and Polish hatred for the Jews made the Final Solution a possibility. FILM ID 3873 -- Camera Rolls TALA 4A,6A,7A,11A Reserve Tallahassee Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs. FILM ID 3874 – Camera Rolls Coupe 6B,11 Mute reel with nature shots of Wakulla Springs, as well as CUs of Rubenstein and Lanzmann. FILM ID 3586 -- Son Seul

    Alfred Spiess

    Alfred Spiess

    Film

    Alfred Spiess was a prosecutor of the Treblinka trial. He talks about the reorganization of the camp and gas chambers. FILM ID 3895 -- CR 1-4 Lanzmann asks Spiess how he felt when he was given the task of conducting an investigation for the Treblinka trial. Spiess says the trial presented many challenges; one primary concern was how to care for the witnesses. He created a model of the camp to be used for reference throughout the trial since, unlike other camps, Treblinka had been almost entirely destroyed. They created a sketch of the camp which Franz Stangl claimed was 100% accurate. In all three of the camps constructed under Operation Reinhardt (Be??ec, Sobibór, and Treblinka), a wall separated the gassing and cremations area from the reception. There was disagreement during the trial concerning the total number of people murdered at Treblinka. The three camps of Operation Reinhardt were exclusively extermination camps. Treblinka was constructed to exterminate the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto. Operation Reinhardt lasted from spring 1942 to fall 1943, and Spiess estimates the total number of deaths from all three camps to be between 1.8 and 2 million people. The actions carried out under Operation Reinhardt were disorganized. The first Commandant of Treblinka, Irmfried Eberl, allowed more transports than the camp had the capacity to kill. Trains arriving at Treblinka had to wait for Jews in previous trains to be "processed" before they could pull up to the ramp. As a result, many people died standing, packed in the train cars. Spiess tells Lanzmann a mountain of corpses 200 meters long and 2 meters tall was formed along the ramp. The Jews were told they were being sent to the east to be re-settled. The sick and frail were taken to a "hospital," called the Lazaret, with the Red Cross emblem on the outside, where they were shot in the neck. They were taken to the Lazaret so as not to impede the smooth process of the mass gassings. SS officer Willi Mentz carried out the shootings in the Lazaret. FILM ID 3896 -- CR 5-7 When the leader of Operation Reinhardt, Odilo Globocnik, visited Treblinka and saw the state of disarray the camp was in, he fired Eberl and put Franz Stangl and Christian Wirth in charge. Larger gas chambers were constructed and the transports of Jews began again. Stangl made the decision to keep the experienced work units for longer periods of time because they worked faster. Most of the camp was burned down during the revolt on August 2, 1943, with the exception of the gas chambers, which were made of concrete. Murder in the gas chambers was carried out with the use of a Russian tank engine. It took about 25 minutes to murder those in a gas chamber, and occasionally victims would survive the gassing only to be shot once the doors were opened. Spiess describes how the Jews were processed upon entering the camp. Before entering the gas chambers, the Jews had to hand their valuables over at a "cashier's counter" headed by Franz Suchomel. The victims were forced to run through a path in the tube, called the "Way to Heaven" by the prisoners, which brought them to the gas chambers. The tube had many turns so the prisoners could not see the dead bodies being removed from the chamber. The entrance to the gas chamber was flanked by flower pots to keep up the pretense that the prisoners were entering a bathhouse. With the possibility of the Allies approaching in spring 1943, the bodies of the murdered victims began to be destroyed. Spiess describes the cremation process and destruction of the camp by the Germans. The last prisoners in the camp after the revolt on August 2, 1943 were liquidated on November 30, 1943. At the beginning of the Treblinka trial in 1964, there were 53 survivors out of the one million who entered Treblinka's gates. Spiess states that if it were not for the revolt there would be no survivors. Spiess believes the final push for a revolt came from the prisoners who had been brought to Treblinka from the Warsaw ghetto immediately following the uprising. FILM ID 3897 -- CR 8-10 700 prisoners escaped and sought refuge in the surrounding woods, but only 70 escaped the German troops who were called to track down the prisoners. Spiess finds it symbolic of the German master race mentality that the SS could not imagine that the oppressed, beaten Jews could initiate and succeed in a revolt. Spiess says there is a difference between the Germans who shrank from killing, and those for whom murdering became a normality. The former participated in the Nazi regime, while the latter willingly identified with the regime's will to murder. In some cases, a defendant was sentenced to life imprisonment because he identified with the regime's will to murder. Operation Reinhardt was composed of 100 to 120 German SS. The Germans took supervisory roles in the camps while Ukrainians and Jewish prisoners worked under their command. Jewish workers in the camps were replaceable and lived in a constant state of deception and terror, which made resistance nearly impossible. The SS of Operation Reinhardt came from a variety of vocations, most having previously worked on the T4 euthanasia project where they became accustomed to murder. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss the culpability of those who knew less than others about what was occurring under Operation Reinhardt. FILM ID 3898 -- CR 11-12 At the close of Operation Reinhardt, Globocnik wrote an account summarizing it's economic contribution. From currency, precious metals, gold, clothing, and other valuables stolen from the Jews and other victims, a total of 100 million Reichsmarks were placed into the Reichsbank. The number of people murdered, however, was not recorded. Lanzmann and Spiess discuss how much a person working in Department 33 at the East Railway, local citizens, and others throughout Europe knew of the camps. Fear of being accused of spreading atrocity propaganda prevented many who knew of the extermination camps from sharing their knowledge. FILM ID 3899 -- CR 12A-13

    Robert Reams - Fish(ing Party)

    Robert Reams - Fish(ing Party)

    Film

    Ambassador Robert Borden Reams was interviewed about American diplomats during a fishing and golfing trip in Panama City, Florida. Ambassador Reams agreed to meet with Lanzmann on the condition that there would be no formal interview, and that topics such as the Bermuda Conference, governmental policies and the State Department during World War II would not discussed. He refuses to tell Lanzmann why he doesn't want to talk about them. Much of Lanzmann's and the Ambassador's time together is spent fishing and golfing, although he eventually opens up to Lanzmann's questions. FILM ID 3875 -- Camera Rolls 1-9 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:25:59 In Florida, several takes of Lanzmann driving to Ambassador’s home. 01:05:00 Lanzmann and Ambassador Reams fish, various shots, some takes without sound, some shots include Mrs. Dotty Reams fishing. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II. FILM ID 3876 -- Camera Rolls 10-16 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:13:34 Various shots of the Ambassador’s home in Florida, “REAMS 130” sign, and Dotty driving a golf cart. Lanzmann golfs with Ambassador Reams and his wife Dotty. They do not discuss Reams’ role at the State Department during World War II. FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 20.24 Reams interview Peche — 00:59:50 to 01:18:28 Inside the Ambassador’s home, Lanzmann speaks to Reams and his wife Dotty, who are seated in red club chairs. At Lanzmann’s request, Dotty reads the text of a certificate from President Kennedy on the wall in their home. Reams says he is very fond of Lanzmann, but refuses to discuss the topic of diplomatic affairs during World War II; they talk about making good martinis before Lanzmann tries to convince him to relate an anecdote about another person who “took part in this film.” 01:10:18 CR24 Reams addresses his role as Ambassador to Syria. They discuss the roles of Breckinridge Long (Assistant Secretary of State), Cordell Hull, and Sumner Wells and the divisions of the Department of State. They talk about Long’s infamous diary and Hull’s Jewish wife. FILM ID 3878 -- Camera Rolls 21-23 Reams interview Documents — 01:00:00 to 01:03:19 Mute shots of a wall inside Reams’ home with framed diplomatic certificates from Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy as well as a portrait of Reams during World War II and guns. FILM ID 3877 -- Camera Rolls 25-27 Reams interview Peche — 01:00:00 to 01:23:16 They continue talking about Breckinridge Long and his diary. Dotty was one of Long's personal secretaries. Reams says that Long felt unjustly treated. Reams explains his role in the European Division covering the affairs of Greenland, Denmark, South Africa, as well as the refugee problem. 01:05:28 CR26 Patriotism is very important to Reams. He says he is not an isolationist, rather a realist. 01:11:21 CR27 Reams compliments Lanzmann’s film crew. Lanzmann presses Reams about working on the refugee problem. Reams was made Secretary of the Intergovernmental Committee during World War II. He claims the committee didn’t exist, that he had a title but no power or function. Lanzmann asks what Washington DC was like in 1942 and 1943 for those in positions to make political decisions; for example, what was the meaning of Auschwitz? He doesn’t remember. In the first half of 1942, the Ambassador was interned in Germany dealing with war rations; he had been taken from Denmark with his staff as the Chargés d'Affaires of the American Legation in Copenhagen. In April 1943, Reams was sent as a Representative of the United States to the Bermuda Conference; he does not remember whether he knew that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising occurred at the same time. He alludes to the fact that he knew what was happening to the Jews of Europe as Chef de Cabinet for Jimmy Burns, but Lanzmann’s questions do not trigger strong feelings or memories from that the time. Lanzmann again asks what the meaning of Auschwitz was for Reams, living peacefully in Washington. Reams says “I simply cannot answer” but admits he’s afraid of an atomic war.

    Henry Feingold

    Henry Feingold

    Film

    Henry Feingold, author and professor of American Jewish History and Holocaust Studies, discusses, in an interview with Claude Lanzmann, the American response to the Holocaust with particular importance on the failure to admit refugees and to create a resettlement option. FILM ID 4606 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 145-148 146 (01:00:43) Claude Lanzmann and Henry Feingold sit at a cluttered office table, in Feingold’s New York City apartment. Feingold begins by discussing the unique and even affluent status of American Jewry as an ethnic group during the 1930s. He then raises the question why American Jewry was not able garner support from the Roosevelt Administration to act on the rescue issue, particularly provided that several Jews were in Roosevelt’s inner circle. He says that the several Jewish communities that existed in the United States during this period were divided on the approach to tackle the crisis. (01:02:34) Lanzmann questions Feingold to clarify the terms Uptown and Downtown Jews. Feingold explains that it is an old classification that differentiates the original Jewish migration that moved to the West side known as Uptown Jews and the new arrivals known as the Downtown Jews. (01:03:55) Discusses shtadlanut as a traditional form of soft diplomacy and how the American Jews formed a Kehila. Points out that American Jewry had a degree of power that gave them responsibility, but to claim American Jews betrayed European Jews is unjust. (01:07:55) Discusses that that the “spirit of civilization” was not mobilized by Jews. 147 (01:10:30) Discusses the common, antisemitic illusion that Jews held excessive power within society and aspired to ‘rule the world’ which Feingold rebukes by claiming the Holocaust is the surest evidence that it is indeed just an illusion. (01:12:10) Further discusses the “Jewish love affair with Roosevelt” and notes that although American Jews had political leverage, it was a disproportionate amount unable of changing major policy. Claims that the American Jewry treated not as badly as other ethnic minorities such as the Germans and the Irish from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. (01:15:30) Lanzmann then questions if American Jewry was afraid of antisemitism in the 1930s. Feingold explains how this brings up the underlying topic of what power American Jewry really had during this period. Claims that antisemitism coupled with isolationism and the followers of Charles Lindbergh legitimized the anti rescue and anti refugee view of the general American public. (01:18:56) Feingold adds that it should also be noted that the American Jewish community in 1938 was American first then Jewish, thus at times more concerned with domestic issues. (01:19:34) He explains from a bureaucratic level that the State Department led by Breckinridge Long made it extremely difficult to obtain a United States visa in 1940. 148 (01:20:43) Feingold touches on Roosevelt and the refugee issue further with the notion of “politics of gesture”. (01:21:50) He provides the example of the Evian Conference where none of the attending countries had the intention of raising refugee quotas. He explains it was a policy intended to seduce the the Jewish voting public and that in reality did little to help the European Jews. (01:24:30) Discusses James Dunn who was an undersecretary at the State Department who is quoted to have had the power of indefinitely postponing immigrant entrance into the United States. He explains that a common narrative used by the State Department and even Roosevelt was that German spies had infiltrated the refugee stream. (01:25:55) Describes American consulates in 1938 and 1939 as unreceptive to issuing European Jews visas. Gives one example of a Polish Jew who is told to come back in eight years with another request. Says that today as it was then, the American Jewry is powerless based on the lack of options open to the community. FILM ID 4607 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 149,151,153 149 (02:00:18) Discusses the ‘very’ American idea of philanthropy and how it was often associated to Jews and money. 150 (02:02:45) He explains that the stereotype of Jews being wealthy was shared among Nazi Germany, Great Britain, and the United States. (02:02:54) He adds that Roosevelt is quoted wanting a list of 1,000 of the richest Jews in the United States to pay for a new “United States of Africa”. Says that many believed Jewish wealth could bail out the Jewish problem. (02:06:20) Explains how the Roosevelt Administration prefered the euphemized term “political refugee” in place of Jew. Adds that one proposal of getting money out of the German Jewry pioneered by finance minister Hjalmar Schacht was to use the German Jewry as ransom. 151 (02:14:40) Makes a key point on if there had been a successful resettlement effort, then perhaps history would be different. Discusses how the initial phase of inaction by world leaders to save the Jews propelled Nazis to carry out the Holocaust. 152 (02:17:30) Feingold goes on to discuss different resettlement ideas ranging from Alaska to Tanganyika in Africa that were disliked by Zionists. (02:20:50) Discusses the emergence of the group referred to as “territorialists” which was an ancient enemy to Zionists. 153 (02:25:45) Discusses how the 1943 Bergson group separated the homeland issue from the rescue issue and gave priority to the rescue issue. Further explains how the revisionists viewed resettlement broadly as the Zionists were exclusive to Palestine. (02:27:34) Explains from the Allied point of view the fastest way to save the Jews was through victory and nothing could impede that including rescue attempts, thus, the rescue of the Jews was never a war aim. Further discusses the importance of the Holocaust in World War II and how its effects reached beyond just Jews. FILM ID 4608 -- Feingold (NY) -- Camera Rolls 154-158, 160 Coupe 154 (03:01:00) Discusses the growth of Zionism in response to the Holocaust. (03:07:40) Describes the Bermuda Conference in 1943 which Feingold describes as a “mockery conference”. 155 (03:08:30) Describes the conference as a continuation of Evian and the “politics of gesture” where there was a deliberate attempt to do nothing to help the Jews. 156 (03:10:00) Claims that at the Bermuda Conference, the U.S. and British delegates agreed to ‘rescue’ Jews from North Africa rather than Hitler’s death camps. Explains that the Allies did not want the war to appear to be about the Jews. (03:10:50) Describes the old euphemism of a refugee problem compared to the Jewish problem. 157 (03:13:10) Explains that food could not be sent to the camps because it was viewed as the Germans’ obligation to feed the prisoners and that negotiations with Berlin were never considered an option because it would be viewed as “criminal” to negotiate with Nazis. (03:15:10) Claims that since a press release was not released from the Bermuda Conference, Jewish public opinion became more concerned and active which resulted in action from congress. (03:17:20) Describes that in a sense with the Final Solution, the Germans were solving a problem for the Western world of what to do with the Jews. States that “every Jew killed in a death camp in the East meant one less Jew who required a haven in the West”. (03:18:40) Discusses Roosevelt and the push to devise the refugee center in Oswego, New York. Assess the efficacy of the War Refugee Board particularly with the Jews of Budapest. (03:21:35) Discusses the concept of bombing Auschwitz. Explains reasons given by the Allies for choosing not to bomb such as the creation of a greater terror. 158 (03:23:00) Further explains that the bombing of Auschwitz was viewed as “doubtful in efficacy” even though Allied planes were bombing other sites five miles away. (03:24:30) Discusses in March 1943 that the rescue advocates with their twelve point program at Madison Square Garden failed to raise the idea of retaliatory bombing. 160 (03:26:50) Camera turns to Lanzmann.

    Helena Pietyra - Auschwitz

    Helena Pietyra - Auschwitz

    Film

    Helena Pietyra describes her experience living near the city of Auschwitz, Poland. FILM ID 3448 -- Interview Auschwitz Pietyra -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:04 to 01:24:13 Roll 1 Madam Pietyra sits in the living room of the apartment she occupies in Auschwitz. Pietyra is citizen of Auschwitz. She was born in Auschwitz and has never left. She recounts that Auschwitz was a predominantly Jewish city before the war. Most of the city was occupied by the Jewish citizens, including the apartment Pietyra lives in, while only a few buildings belonged to Catholic citizens. Overall, the Jews were liked. The non-Jewish citizens liked their Jewish neighbors because they allowed customers to purchase goods on credit and did not charge any interest. There was a synagogue and a Jewish cemetery in the city. Both were damaged during the war, and while the synagogue was completely destroyed the cemetery remains, though it is no longer in use. The Nazis destroyed the graves in the cemetery, and then the houses. 01:06:49 Roll 2 Deportation of the Jews of Auschwitz started in 1940. According to Madam Pietyra, they took with them only what they could carry. This explains the presence of furniture from the Jewish inhabitants when Pietyra moved into her apartment in 1940. The Jews who were deported from Auschwitz, as well as Jews from all over Europe, were brought to Auschwitz camp for extermination. Madam Pietyra and the citizens of Auschwitz knew that Jews were being gassed in the Auschwitz concentration camp, because Polish railway men who worked there would leak information. Sometimes when Pietyra took the train, she would pass train carriages in which Jews were being transported to Auschwitz. She remembers seeing the barbed wire in the windows and the faces of the Jews behind. When the wind blew from the west, the citizens of Auschwitz could smell the odor of burning bodies. Yet if an outsider visited the city and inquired about the smell, the citizens would not tell them what the cause was, as it was dangerous to speak the truth. The resistance was active and Pietyra's brother was a member. After the Jews were deported, the Polish population made up the majority of the city. The Germans lived in houses. 01:17:23 Roll 3 Lanzmann asks Madam Pietyra if she knew at the time how the Jews were being killed. Pietyra states that at the time she and other citizens of Auschwitz knew Jews were being gassed and killed in other ways. They knew the extermination of the Jews was on a large scale, since convoys arrived all the time to the camp. Though it was painful to stay in the city after the war, Pietyra claims that almost everyone stayed in order to make a living. Catholic cemeteries were bombed by the English during the war, as there were munition stores underneath. The camp itself was never bombed. The city of Auschwitz remains very similar to how it was before the war, except for a German bunker which was turned into a store. A member of Lanzmann's camera crew says at 01:23:28 "Auschwitz marketplace general sound atmosphere." Sounds from the street.

    Becher - Mount Kisco / Weissmandel

    Becher - Mount Kisco / Weissmandel

    Film

    An Orthodox Jew affiliated with Weissmandel's Yeshiva in Mount Kisco in New York, Mr. Becher talks about Rabbi Weissmandel, the "Blood for Goods" and other rescue efforts, and the Orthodox prohibition on violent resistance. FILM ID 3820 – Camera Rolls NY 82-87 -- Becher NY 82 Mr. Becher explains that Rabbi Weissmandel was the first person to explore the idea of bribing the Nazis in order to save the Jews. Rabbi Weissmandel began rescuing Jews from Slovakia in 1942. Religious Jews were opposed to the ban on German goods initiated by Rabbi Stephen Wise in 1933. Becher says Jews were religiously opposed to displays of force against Germans and the Jews living in Germany. 10:21 NY 84,85,86 Becher claims that the boycott of Germany and Rabbi Wise's declarations of war in 1938 both contributed to the Holocaust. Zionist Jews in Palestine collaborated with the Nazis through the creation of the Haavara Agreement which permitted German Jews to immigrate to Palestine if they agreed to leave their belongings and money in Germany. Lanzmann asks Becher what he would have done, as an Orthodox Jew, if the Nazis had humiliated him the same way they did to many Orthodox Jews during the war. After Becher does not answer, Lanzmann asks if he thinks the war would have been different if Jews had weapons to resist. 21:35 NY 87,89,90 Becher discusses the differences between the holidays Chanukah and Purim. According to Becher, Jews can only fight back when their faith is in danger, and the Nuremberg laws persecuted Jews personally, rather than the religion of Judaism. FILM ID 3821 – Camera Rolls NY 88,89,90 -- Coupes NY 88 Must, LS Lanzmann and Becher talking in the street, CUs. Becher walking along the road. FILM ID 3822 – Camera Rolls NY 91 -- Coupes NY 91 Becher thinks that the Diaspora has made it impossible for Judaism to be wiped out. Weissmandel was able to negotiate for the rescue of Slovakian Jews by convincing the Nazis that if they happened to lose the war, allowing some Jews out would help their image. Nazi SS official Dieter Wisliceny agreed for the price of $50,000 USD to divert several of the transports going to Poland.

    Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering - Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto (New York)

    Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering - Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto (New York)

    Film

    Lore Oppenheimer and Herman Kempinsky (now Ziering), co-presidents of the Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto, share their experiences during the Holocaust. They address the conflicts between German Jews and Ostjuden, deportation to the Polish border in 1938, propaganda, arrival in Riga and witnessing evidence of murdered Latvian Jews, and life in Riga ghetto. Mr. Ziering conceals his face during the interview which takes place at the 1978 Society conference in New York city. Lanzmann also briefly speaks in German with Friedrich Baer, a WWI veteran frontline soldier, who attended the conference. FILM ID 3804 -- Camera Rolls NY 70,71 NY 70 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells Lanzmann that she was born in Hannover, Germany, and that her father thought he was safe when the Nazis came because he had served in WWI; also, he was German and didn't want to leave Germany. By some coincidence, the father was not sent to a concentration camp during Kristallnacht, but things soon got worse and he had to give up his business. By the time he got an affidavit to emigrate to the US, it was too late. Also, the parents' efforts to get the children out with the Kindertransport failed. By 1941, like other Jews, the family was crammed into a few "Jewish houses", while many other Jews lived in former schools, even in cemeteries. Suicides were common then - about a dozen every night. She cites the restrictions on Jews before the 1941 deportations - wearing the yellow star, carrying an identification card marked with a "J" and the added name "Sarah" or "Israel", depending on gender, and being banned from sidewalks and most stores; schools had been closed and synagogues burned. NY 71 Lanzmann talks with Mr. Ziering, whom he calls Mr. Kempinsky, about his recollections. Ziering tells of being born in Kassel, Germany in 1926 to parents who came from Poland after WWI. By 1933, students were already segregated and he had to attend a Jewish school. Coming from Poland of German heritage, he occasionally used a Yiddish word and was taunted by German Jewish teachers and fellow students as Ostjuden; "East Jews" were blamed by German Jews for all the problems facing Jews. Mr. Ziering's father did not feel endangered by the Nazis because his father had served in WWI and was a businessman. Mrs. Oppenheimer confirms what her husband said about East Jews. Mr. Ziering tells about being deported in 1938 before Kristallnacht. The parents were stateless, as they had neither Polish nor German citizenship. With one hour to pack, they and 500 other families were sent on a two-day train to the Schneidemühl camp on the Polish border in Zbaszyin. FILM ID 3805 -- Camera Rolls NY 72-75 NY 72 Mr. Ziering explains how his family's statelessness came about. Their passports had to be sent to the Polish Consulate in Frankfurt for visa extension, but were never returned. Lanzmann calls this escalating discrimination "a kind of preliminary for the extermination". Mr. Ziering tells of the effect of the daily insults and propaganda on him as a child. He began to believe that there really was something wrong with Jews the way they were portrayed in the media and the antisemitic newspaper The Stürmer. When his family could not get into Poland, they were given the option of paying for the return trip to Kassel; they were on the last transport back to Germany before the border was closed. A month later, the men were rounded up again, taken to the border, chased each night by dogs and shot at by police on both sides of the border. The father was able to escape and return to Kassel, then was able to get a visa to England, but could not get the family over before war broke out. His mother, brother and he were considered to be Polish citizens and had to report to the police station every morning. All three had to state their names repeatedly, as for instance, "I am the Jew, Hermann Israel Kempinsky", then were mocked and insulted by the police sergeant. NY 73 Mr. Ziering repeats his story about the daily ritual at the police station. He had to stand at attention, look at the sergeant and other offices, and say his name in various denigrating ways, such as "I am the Jewish pig Hermann Israel Kempinsky". This went on for two years for his family. The police would remind them of what happened to the Jewish student, Grynspan, an incident the Nazis used as justification for Kristallnacht. Mr. Ziering tells about the SA breaking into and plundering Jewish stores, setting the synagogue on fire and, the next day, rounding up community leaders to clean up the mess. After that, all Jewish stores were marked with a sign "Jew" to keep non-Jews away. Mrs. Oppenheimer has similar memories of Kristallnacht: many men were deported to camps and people's apartments were destroyed, but by luck, her father and their apartment were overlooked. Her father died doing heavy construction work in Hannover in 1941. After being deported to Riga, she and her brother were sent to the concentration camp Stutthof and from there to Dachau, where her brother was killed in 1945. Lanzmann asks both of them about daily life during the Nazi time. Alternately, they describe the restrictions of shopping only at Jewish stores, getting inferior food, having to live in segregated ghetto-type housing, and all males over fourteen having to work. Walking to school, Mr. Ziering was easily recognized by Hitler Youth who would attack and beat him. NY 75 Mr. Ziering repeats his account of abuse by Hitler Youth members with no intervention from witnesses. Basic food and heating materials were harder to come by, so he and his brother would pick up coal in a cart to bring home or deliver it to old people. Lanzmann returns to the topic of suicides. Mr. Ziering said those were mostly Jews born in Germany, who could not believe what was happening. In an incident in the concentration camp Kaiserwald in Riga, a German Jewish prisoner said with pride, "those are our planes flying overhead," which was incomprehensible to the 14-year old Ziering, given the terrible treatment by the Nazis. Mrs. Oppenheimer repeats her certainty about the dozens of suicides every day in Hannover - proof being the dates on the cemetery gravestones. She goes on to describe the crowded, awful conditions of sharing a room with 15 to 20 people and more in the gymnasium. Since all 1600 Jews were living in 14 houses, it was easy to round them up in December 1941 for the transports to the East. Mr. Ziering was also deported at that time. FILM ID 3806 -- Camera Rolls NY 76-79 NY 76 Mr. Ziering talks about being in Frankfurt for training to become an auto mechanic and how frustrating he found the restrictions on Jews of no movies, no soccer, no swimming. One time he sneaked into the movie "Jud Süss". He got the German view of Jews inside the movie theater where it became clear that people fully believed the inhuman stereotypes of Jews they saw on the screen. He returned to Kassel to join his mother and brother for the deportation to the East. Lanzmann asks what "the East" meant to him. Mr. Ziering admits it was frightening not to know, but thought they would all work in a factory. He reads the German order to report. Every deportee had to make a complete list of possessions and give up all valuables for which he/she was give a receipt - a highly ironic exchange - theft with a receipt. Lanzmann asks about the complicity of the Jewish Council. Mr. Ziering says it was the Nazi's method of 'divide and conquer', pitting Jews against each other, but giving benefits to a certain few. Mrs. Oppenheimer adds that the Jewish Council members were not deported at that time, though by 1943, they were sent to Theresienstadt. NY 77 Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of her mother's attempt in 1940 to get she and her brother out on the Kindertransport to relatives in Amsterdam. Though the head of the Jewish Council assured her that the children would be put on the list, when the time came, they could not go; the suspicion is that he substituted his own children. Yet these children later came back to Hannover and were deported to Auschwitz, where, being twins, they were subject to medical experiments. Lanzmann asks for more information about the deportations in December 1941. Mrs. Oppenheimer tells of all the Jews being called to the Horticulture School in Ahlem, held there for three days and giving up all valuables. Some did not have to go, mostly those in mixed marriages. The rest were shipped in regular trains but it was very crowded, the heat was turned off and they had only the food they had brought along. Arriving at the Scirotawa station, SS men yelled at them and marched them off to a Riga ghetto. NY 78,79 Mr. Ziering says that they arrived on December 12. NY 79 Mr. Ziering describes the arrival in Riga, where a SS man marched them to the ghetto surrounded by barbed wire; they saw blood on the ground and saw bodies outside. Inside the apartments everything had been left in disarray, even with food, sabbath candles and a prayerbook still on the table, a shocking, incomprehensible situation. Lanzmann asks how he found out what had happened. Mr. Ziering describes slipping under the wire with other teens to another ghetto where he spoke Yiddish with Latvian Jews and learned that a few days prior, the Jews in his ghetto had been taken to the forest and killed with machine guns. When he reported this to the German Jews of his transport, they wouldn't believe him. Lanzmann states that the killings had started on November 30, 1941. FILM ID 3807 -- Camera Rolls NY 80-81 NY 80 Mr. Ziering tells of the some Latvian Jews resenting the German Jews, fearful that these would replace them at their work stations because of their ability to speak German. During weeks of sitting around, he and his friends would sneak out of the ghetto and scavenge for food. Sometimes they found frozen potatoes, which they ate, despite the awful taste. Once, when carrying a sack of potatoes back into the ghetto, a guard caught his group and marched them to the cemetery, known to be the execution place. Just as his group was all lined up, it began to rain and while the SS guards put on their raincoats, Mr. Ziering ducked behind a monument and survived. Eventually, the deportees were given work outside the ghetto as tailors and mechanics, but Mr. Ziering does not understand why the Latvian Jews, who were more skilled at these trades, were killed. He goes on to describe the naiveté of the German Jews who considered themselves safe from harm by virtue of being German and following the rules. But if people became ill or could no longer work, a truck would come and ostensibly take them to a fish factory where work was easier; in reality, they were taken to the Forest Romboli and shot. Their clothes came back and were sent to Germany for charity. Mrs. Oppenheimer talks about food being the key to ghetto residents' survival - whatever they could smuggle out was exchanged for food from the outside population. But anyone caught with smuggled food would be shot. NY 81 Mrs. Oppenheimer reflects on how much harder it must have been for the parents to be deported - torn away from everything they had - than for young people like her. She was not able to talk to her mother about it later, as her father had died before the deportation and her brother after. Mr. Ziering agrees - he lived for the moment and didn't worry as his mother did. He talks about wanting to get even and doing so by breaking the Germans' furniture when cleaning it, burning hundred dollar bills, and burying the gold he and his friends found. Sabotage gave them the will to fight and resist. Lanzmann asks about the hangings they all had to watch. Mrs. Oppenheimer says that those caught exchanging goods were killed - men were hanged and women shot. Everyone coming back from work had to look at the body hanging from the gallows for three days. If a person didn't look up, the SS would hit them. Mr. Ziering reflects that no matter what a person did, it was the wrong thing; if he escaped, the family or others were killed in retribution. Lanzmann asks why Mr. Ziering does not show his face to the camera. FILM ID 3808 –- Camera Rolls NY 72A-74 coupes Silent shots of Mrs. Oppenheimer and Mr. Ziering.

    Yehuda Bauer

    Yehuda Bauer

    Film

    Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli scholar, talks about how he first became involved in the study of the Holocaust and how he tries to strike a balance between emotional involvement and objectivity. He talks about the Jewish Council and Israeli attitudes to them after the war. Lanzmann and Bauer debate Kasztner's actions and motivations and the Nazi fantasy of the powerful "world Jewry". The interview was recorded outdoors in the early evening at a kibbutz in Israel (probably Bauer’s home). FILM ID 3793 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 -- Interview Judenrat CR1 Bauer says he came from Prague in 1939 at the age of twelve. His father was a Zionist and got the family out on the day the Germans came in. Lanzmann asks how he started working on the Holocaust in Israel and Bauer explains that it was impossible for him as a historian not to deal with it and that he was scared to do so. CR2 Lanzmann asks Bauer if there is a change of attitude among Israelis toward the Judenrat. Bauer says yes, and that research has shifted toward an understanding of the conditions under which Judenrat were working, and the impossibility of generalizing about the policy of all of the Judenrat. Bauer describes an extreme case in the Łódź ghetto where Rumkowski wanted to save the Jews by making them slaves of the Germans, calculating that no slave master would murder his slaves. He did this with support of the rabbis and Jewish elites. Lanzmann calls this a policy of "rescue through work". It did keep 60,000 Łódź Jews alive until 1944, longer than in other ghettos. Had the Soviet Army moved into Łódź in July 1944 instead of January 1945, Rumkowski might have been remembered as a hero or savior, but Bauer calls him a murderer. CR3 Lanzmann talks of the ghetto situation being different from that of occupied countries like France where there was a permanent struggle between the bourgeoisie and the workers. Bauer points out that there is a big difference between cooperation and collaboration, the latter being an ideological union with the occupiers which helped the Nazis win the war. Some Judenrat tried to save the Jews through slave labor, but the approach did not work because the Nazis hated the Jews based on ideology, rather than economics, so the end was murder. It is important to look at the moral action or intention. Barasch in Bialystok was an honest man who tried to save as many people as possible by working with the underground, while Rumkowski fought against the underground and destroyed it. In Kovno, the Jewish elder Elkis tried to help the underground with the support of the Jewish police. In Minsk, the leader Myschkin helped to organize the resistance. Bauer says that attempts to present the Judenrat as stereotypes are fallacious. Lanzmann presses Bauer to define the difference in the leaders' position. Bauer says it was more than the leaders; it was also the environment and whether there was a military or civilian government in place. FILM ID 3794 -- Camera Rolls 4-6 -- Interview Judenrat CR4 Bauer draws a distinction between when the Judenrat operated. Studies show that a large number of Judenrat had the support of the population at first. Later, their sphere of action was limited, and they felt forced to hand over their own people as slave laborers. Bauer tells a case in Kosov, Ukraine, where when alerted that the Germans were coming to kill the Jews, three of the Judenrat delayed the Germans with talk while the Jews ran off to hide. Bauer explains that there was a policy among some Judenrat heads to sacrifice a minority in the hope of saving the majority, which is what Genz did in Vilna having the Jewish police handing over the old people to be killed by the Germans. CR5 Lanzmann and Bauer discuss the decision of the Communist Party, the Judenrat, and the ghetto population to turn in Itzi Gritenberg, the head of the resistance movement, to the Germans. Gritenberg supported Jakob Genz in sending Jewish elders away. The underground found itself in a similar position as the Judenrat, with the responsibility for choosing the life or death of others. Bauer illustrates a case of two Jews near Vilna who escaped to the forest; when they did not return, the Nazis killed 150 Jewish villagers. The resistance felt that the Germans put them in a no-win situation. CR6 Bauer explains that the resistance movement was different from the Judenrat in that the former realized that armed resistance was the only reaction to the Nazis, and that it was hopeless - everybody would be killed. In contrast, he reads a speech by Jakob Genz, head of the Vilna ghetto, who sacrificed elders rounded up by the ghetto police, with Genz saying that he has blood on his hands, whereas the intelligensia would live with a clear conscience. Bauer cites examples of alternate ways of dealing with the Germans. In Slovakia, the Judenrat decided to save the whole community, so were able to negotiate with and pay money to the Slovak government, and establish work camps for youths. Lanzmann points out that conditions were different in Slovakia because there were no ghettos. Bauer counters with examples of ghettos in Minsk, Wolinia and Belorussia where the Judenrat helped get youths into the forest and fight the Germans. Many of the youth were Zionists who had disengaged from the Jewish community before the war. FILM ID 3795 -- Camera Rolls 7,8 -- Interview Divers CR7 Bauer says again that the youth movements, Zionist and Communist, both had as their mission the establishment of a new society. But being stuck in the ghetto, they had to share the Jewish way of life, which they had rejected. In Vilna, Bialystok and Cracow, they decided that the ghetto was lost anyway, so where they could, they escaped into the forest and became partisans. In Belorussia, about 25,000 Jews escaped, many of them becoming fighters, even forming family camps. Acquiring guns was a major challenge, since it was difficult to be accepted into partisan units without arms. But in the Warsaw ghetto, there was no way to have an effective armed resistance during the big deportations in 1942. CR8 Bauer surmises that the reason for the failure of the resistance groups to organize an uprising in Warsaw in 1942 is that they were still unprepared. It went against their history and tradition to rebel. But when the remaining 55,000 Jews in the ghetto realized that the others had been killed, the population organized themselves, neutralizing the Judenrat and the Jewish police. Bauer explains that the Western world had heard about the pogroms, murder and ghettos in Eastern Europe, as reported in the New York and the Palestinian Hebrew newspapers, but no one had put the events together as a plan because the events were so unprecedented as to be unthinkable. The shock of realization came when a group of Palestinians who had been living in Europe came to Palestine in the fall of 1942 and told the whole story. FILM ID 3796 -- Camera Rolls 9,10 -- Zionism CR9 Bauer goes into detail about the disbelief of the Western world about the news of the systematic killing of the Jews in Europe. He cites the public denial of Itzak Greenbaum despite having accurate information from a correspondent in Switzerland. Lanzmann presses Bauer and he says that Greenbaum knew there was little the Jewish population of Palestine could do, so he took the attitude of "rescue through victory." It was only when 69 Palestinians came from Poland, Germany, Belgium, and France in 1942 having witnessed the atrocities, that the world realized the "rumors" they had discounted were true. Greenbaum sent out a call to fight in 1943 saying that the European Jews had gone "like sheep to slaughter" and that "we must be different". CR10 Bauer speculates about what the Jews in Palestine could have done. He says the dilemma for the Zionists in Palestine was to create a mass Jewish State. All would be lost if there was no Jewish State after the war and no country would absorb what Jews were left. The Jews were completely powerless in 1942 and 1943 - they had no ships or aircraft to get to Europe. Leaders sought help from the British and begged that a few hundred parachutists be sent into Europe. In the end, 31 parachutists were sent. Bauer continues about the contradiction of resources, whether to raise money for building an independent state or for rescuing European Jews. There was pressure from the kibbutz movement, youth movements and working class movement for more direct action, such as sending a delegation to Istanbul. Ben Gurion and Sharett tried to influence the British and American governments to negotiate with the Nazis to save the Jews of Europe or at least to delay their murder. Lanzmann mentions that the slow pace of the pressure to negotiate is in direct contrast with the speed of the deportations of the Hungarian Jews in 1944. FILM ID 3797 -- Camera Rolls 11,12,14 -- Interview Divers CR11 Bauer agrees with Lanzmann about the incongruity of events: The Nazis destroy the Jews at a fantastic speed, yet the reaction of the world was contradictory and slow. He surmises that the Western powers were focused on winning the war by military means in an effort to destroy the Nazis. Saving people was not a military aim. Even in 1944, when American bombers could have reached Eastern Poland, bombing Auschwitz was not a priority. Bauer addresses the accusations against Kasztner, the leader of the Zionist rescue committee in Budapest. Kasztner is alleged to have negotiated with the Nazis. Bauer does not believe the Jews of Klusz knew of the Germans' plan of annihilating European Jews from the 2,500 Polish Jews who escaped into Hungary between 1942 and 1944. Those who escaped told their Hungarian hosts about Belzec, Treblinka, and Majdanek. The Judenrat in Budapest sent messengers to ghettos to warn Jews that they would be deported and killed in Poland. Several of the twelve messengers survived and reported after the war that they were kicked out by the ghetto community - people simply did not want to know. Lanzmann questions how they were warned. CR12 Bauer and Lanzmann argue about whether the Jews of Klusz were sufficiently warned about the deportations - Bauer suggesting they were warned by their own leaders but didn't want to believe the information, Lanzmann saying that people were not told directly enough to run for their lives. Bauer says that Kasztner, a noted journalist, was setting a precedent by negotiating with the Germans for a ransom - first, not to put the Jews in a ghetto and later, to save as many Jews he could. Kasztner had to decide which approach was more effective. He chose to negotiate because the Germans put the stages of concentration, isolation, Aryanization and deportation into action very rapidly with the cooperation of the Hungarian population and government; there was no time or place for escape. The discussion turns to the famous train he negotiated. It consisted of Klusz Jews, including Kasztner's family, friends and some rich people who could pay for others. Bauer argues that Kasztner put his family there to show that the train would go to a safe place rather than to Auschwitz. Lanzmann sees Kasztner's achievements in two ways: he saved 1,600 Jews, yet behaved like a classic Judenrat member in saving only a handful of people. Bauer sees Kasztner in a positive light, given that everything was stacked against saving even a few people - the Jews were in labor battalions, rebellion was impossible, there were no weapons nor support from the Hungarian population and the SS was in charge. Kasztner was a clever negotiator, convincing Eichmann, Becher and Himmler that he was someone to be reckoned with. CR14 Bauer explains that the German generals knew that Germany couldn't win the war in 1942. The Nazis saw the Jews as a world power and thus a bargaining chip with the Allies. The Brandt mission in 1944, meant to exchange trucks for Jews, was doomed to failure because of this dichotomy. Bandi Gross, a crook, was the only person with direct contact with the British and American in Istanbul to negotiate a separate peace. Lanzmann wonders why Eichmann continued the killings if negotiations were going on. Bauer explains the two parallel lines of Nazi policy - the use of the Jews as a bargaining tool (without Hitler's knowledge) and their complete destruction. To the Nazis, the Jews were not human beings, so they could be either sold or killed, whichever was more convenient. Lanzmann adds, "Kill or sell was the same thing." FILM ID 3798 -- Camera Roll 15 -- Interview Divers CR15 Lanzmann says the only way the Nazis could reach the Allies for negotiations was through the Jews because of their imputed world power. Bauer agrees that the Nazis were fighting a war against world Jewry. He states that negotiation plans to "sell Jews" began in 1939 with Schacht-Rubli whereby 100,000 young Jews would emigrate under support from Jews outside Germany. Bauer revisits the "ransom deal" in Slovakia with Wisliceny in 1942. Deportations stopped for a while, which Wisliceny attributes to the Catholic Church's intervention. Bauer disagrees, contending there is no proof of the connection. He says that Weissmandel and Fleischmann believed their plan stopped the deportations, so they proposed the Europaplan, again to exchange Jews for money. Bauer suggests that this plan wasn't about getting money for Jews, but about opening the door to negotiations with the Allies. Lanzmann asks for more details about the war against the Soviet Union being a war against the Jews. Bauer says the evidence is to be found in Hitler's second book in 1928 and his preparations for the attack in 1940 about fighting the Judeo-Bolshevist power. Hitler's quest was a conquest of the world by a healthy, cultured Germanic race and the destruction of the Satanic power of the Jews, which, he believed, controlled the world of his enemies. FILM ID 3799 -- Camera Roll 13 -- Coupes CR13 Bauer is speaking but the sound is missing and the roll has not been located in the archive. It is dark and Bauer puts on a sweater. There is no written transcript for this roll so it is likely that the audio malfunctioned during the interview.

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman

    Film

    Simha Rotem and Itzhak Zuckerman talk about their involvement in the Jewish combat organization in the Warsaw ghetto and the Warsaw ghetto uprising. The interview with both men takes place at the Ghetto Fighters House in Israel on October 4, 1979. Mr. Rotem was interviewed separately in his apartment in Jerusalem on October 6, 1979. FILM ID 3745 -- Camera Rolls 1-4 Lanzmann says they are standing outside of the Ghetto Fighters House. Lanzmann has brought a model of the Warsaw Ghetto to reference when describing the uprising. Rotem joined the Jewish Combat Organization in 1942. He worked at a collective farm and was sent by the Jewish Combat Organization into the ghetto to make contact with the Zionist organization there. The director of the farm was named Czerniakow(?), and his farm had been authorized by the Germans to employ young people to make agricultural products for the war. The farm was at the edge of the Warsaw district. The farm was not guarded, and the director had confidence that the young people working for him would not get him into trouble. Rotem was aware of his privileged position away from the ghetto. He was able to perform illegal resistance activities and received enough to eat. He stayed on the farm for three months until it was shut down at the end of 1942 and its occupants sent to the ghetto. Due to his resistance activities, he was able to visit his parents in the ghetto and witnessed the empty streets and gutted houses. He did not live in the ghetto during the first major deportation. FILM ID 3746 -- Camera Rolls 5-7 The Germans did not expect the Jews in the ghetto to fight back. Rotem explains that none of the Jews could have imagined that a genocide would occur in the 20th century. On top of this, the Germans tried to mislead the Jews further with the establishment of model camps at Poniatow and Trawniki, which Jewish delegations visited. The Jewish Combat Organization was established on July 28, 1942. They were organized, but lacked arms and were only able to fight from January 1943 until April 19, 1943. Mordechai Anielewicz, leader of the Jewish Combat Organization, sent Itzhak Zuckerman (referred to as Antek) a letter on April 22, concerning the search for arms for the uprising. Zuckerman has a copy of the letter that he translated at the time from Hebrew into Yiddish. Living on the outside, Zuckerman knew what was happening in the ghetto and understood more so than others the significance of the deportations. He had contacts in the ghetto, as well as with Jewish gravediggers. Zuckerman left the ghetto six days before the insurrection on April 19, 1943. In the ghetto, Rotem describes how the occupants of the ghetto felt as if something was going to happen. The Germans entered the ghetto on Malevkins street and made their way to the factories. Rotem was outside of the combat zone. Zuckerman comments that Lanzmann has been able to get him to talk about things he does not like thinking about. FILM ID 3747 -- Camera Rolls 8-9 A storm rages outside where the interview takes place. Inside, Zuckerman continues. The Germans entered the ghetto carrying a white flag and demanded a cease fire. Zuckerman describes this event as beyond unbelievable. The resistance fighters immediately opened fire, causing the Germans to retreat. Upon seeing three hundred SS enter the ghetto, Zuckerman exploded a mine placed at an observation post which injured dozens of Germans. The Germans would set fire to buildings and launch artillery from outside the ghetto. The morale of the resistance fighters was lifted when they saw how they had taken the Germans by surprise, and had killed dozens of them in the first three days of fighting. The Germans were afraid to enter the ghetto at night, and were disturbed by the deserted streets. The Jews in the ghetto hid underground in tunnels, basements and bunkers. Zuckerman says the two most astonishing facts of the uprising were that people who were trapped had the spirit to fight, and that those in charge were so young. Rotem was 16 or 17, and Zuckerman about 20 at the time. Zuckerman tells Lanzmann how those who perished in the fight deserve to have their lives written about. Rotem adds that it is unfair for two or three people to be given all the honor and to be turned almost into a legend, for an event which was performed by hundreds. FILM ID 3748 -- Camera Roll 10 After the war, Zuckerman critiqued Zivia for writing the entire account of the resistance fighter's escape in one single chapter of her book. He felt without all the details, the book did not portray the reality of what happened. Lanzmann tells Zuckerman that he is doing similarly by simplifying the events of the Holocaust for the sake of the film. Zuckerman nevertheless thanks Lanzmann for making the film while he is still able to recount his story. FILM ID 3749 -- Camera Rolls 11-13 [Rotem is interviewed alone is his apartment and thus speaks for the remainder of the interview.] Human language is incapable of describing the horror of what was witnessed in the ghetto. The Jews in the ghetto were cut off from the world and isolated to the point where it was possible to lose the drive to keep fighting. Previous attempts to leave the ghetto had ended in death but Rotem and a friend, Sigmund, still decided to try. On April 29, Rotem escaped the ghetto through a tunnel and hid in a house. They met a Christian Pole who they managed to convince that they were also Christian Poles accidentally placed inside the ghetto. The Polish man showed Rotem and Sigmund an escape route via a courtyard which had several days previously been the site of the Irgun fighter's massacre. The Irgun fighters resisted German control independently from the Jewish Combat Organization inside the ghetto. They were able to meet the contact on the Christian side of Warsaw, who advised that a rescue operation of Jewish fighters in the ghetto take place. They concluded the best way to achieve this would be through the sewers. Rotem met with Zuckerman and convinced him to wait until he learned the sewer system before re-entering the ghetto. The men sought out sewer workers to assist them in maneuvering through the tunnels. This took about one week, after which they re-entered the ghetto on May 8 or 9. They could hear fighting and the sound of gunfire from outside the ghetto. Rotem describes returning to the ghetto as the most natural thing to do. He had left in order to seek help for his comrades, not to save himself. From his position outside the ghetto he saw the fires burning and snipers on the roofs. Meanwhile, the city of Warsaw continued functioning as normal. Even in uprising, the ghetto continued to exist as an isolated island. They re-entered the ghetto with the help of the "King of the Blackmailers," a Polish man who lived near the ghetto wall who trapped Jews trying to escape. Rotem and his comrades pretended to be members of the Polish Resistance whose comrades where stuck inside the ghetto. Along with a substantial bribe, the "King of the Blackmailers" helped the men re-enter the ghetto. FILM ID 3750 -- Camera Rolls 14-16 Rotem, his comrade Richek (also spelled Rijek) and two sewer workers entered the ghetto through the sewer system. At times the sewer workers tried to turn around, and Rotem and Richek had to threaten them with their weapons. After about two hours in the sewers, Rotem arrived at the Franciskhanska quarter. Despite giving the password to enter the bunker where the Jewish Combat Organization was supposed to be, he received no reply. The bunker the Jewish Combat Organization had been using was 22 Franciszkanska. Rotem had received no information about the ghetto in the eight days he was outside of it. Consequently, he did not know for certain where he could locate the other combat fighters when he returned to the ghetto. Rotem first went to the bunker where Zivia and Mordechai Anielewicz had been eight days previously, in search of survivors. Not finding anyone there, he went to the other bunkers in the ghetto where he thought he may find survivors. Walking amongst the ruins, Rotem heard a women call for help. She had broken her leg and couldn't free herself. Unfortunately, in the dark Rotem could not find her. As he continued through the ghetto, he smelled smoke and the burnt flesh of those murdered. He repeated the password, "Jan" at each bunker he visited, but did not find anyone. He describes how he felt he was the last living Jew. He returned to the sewers and they retraced their steps. FILM ID 3751 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 The bunkers were deep subterranean caves. They were extremely hot and often one had to lay face down to breathe. On their way back through the sewers the four men heard a noise and feared they had were about to be attacked by Germans, who knew about the sewers. However, it turned out to be ten resistance fighters, all of whom Rotem says he knew personally. Most of the bunkers in the ghetto had been prepared for the non-fighting citizens. As the headquarters of the insurrection, the bunker at Mila 18 had been given to the resistance fighters by gangster Samuel Ascher. The gangsters dealt with contraband commerce between the ghetto and larger Warsaw. FILM ID 3752 -- Camera Rolls 22-24 Rotem remarks how fortunate their meeting with the ten other resistance fighters was, and that by a miracle they did not open fire on each other. They told Rotem that he was late returning to the ghetto by one day. Many of the fighters had committed suicide the previous day, before they could be captured by the Germans. Rotem, Richek and the two sewer guides left the sewer while the ten fighters went in search of surviving fighters in the ghetto. They agreed to rendezvous at a well-known manhole cover outside of the ghetto. Meeting at their rendezvous point, the fighters who searched the ghetto told Rotem that there were survivors in the ghetto who wanted to escape. They could not hold out in the sewers for another day. However, Rotem was not prepared to help a large group of Jews escape from the ghetto so soon. The following morning, he had acquired a truck driven by the Polish communist Army man, Tchacktckek. Despite the tremendous danger, they began to bring the Jews out of the sewer and load them into the truck. Rotem recalls how a crowd of Polish spectators gathered. With about 40 people in the truck, they left the area. Zivia told Rotem there were still people in the sewers. The Jews escaping the sewers were so weak they had to be pulled out and lifted in to the truck. Zivia demanded they return to rescue the remaining people in the sewers, but Rotem felt it would be too dangerous, and figured the second truck would rescue them. The fighters hid in the forest outside of the city, and Rotem returned to Warsaw to see if the remaining fighters had managed to escape. He found his comrade, Rickek, dead in the street. As the remaining Jews escaped through the manhole, Germans had arrived and killed them. Of those who escaped to the forest, Rotem believes about four men are still alive at the time of the interview. Many of them had joined the partisans after escaping the ghetto, and were killed in combat. FILM ID 3766 -- Coupes (Roll 40 - white) -- 09:00:09 to 09:13:19 Mute shots of Rotem in the Ghetto Fighters House. 09:00:20 "Bob. 176" coupe of Lanzmann sitting on a couch, listening and interviewing to Rotem, smoking, close-ups. 09:05:42 Model of the Warsaw ghetto in the museum. 09:08:07 Historic photographs of ghetto inhabitants. *** The following are audio reels **** Film ID 3498 -- Rottem 132, take 1,2 -- 00:00:30 to 00:16:00 Film ID 3499 -- Rotem 133, take 3,4 -- 00:00:42 to 00:11:36 Film ID 3500 -- Rotem 134, take 5 -- 00:00:27 to 00:11:12 Film ID 3501 -- Rotem 135, take 6 -- 00:00:43 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3502 -- Rotem 136, take 7 -- 00:01:10 to 01:12:08 Film ID 3503 -- Rotem 137, take 8 -- 00:01:30 to 00:11:37 Film ID 3504 -- Rotem 138, take 9 -- 00:00:52 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3505 -- Rotem 139, take 10 -- 00:00:56 to 00:12:33 Film ID 3506 -- Rotem 140, take 11 -- 00:00:31 to 00:12:46 Film ID 3507 -- Rotem 141, take 12 -- 00:00:44 to 00:11:42 Film ID 3508 -- Rotem 142, take 13 -- 00:01:21 to 00:12:05 Film ID 3509 -- Rotem 143, take 14 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:15 Film ID 3510 -- Rotem 144, take 16,17 -- 00:01:06 to 00:11:55 Film ID 3511 -- Rotem 145, take 18 -- 00:01:12 to 00:11:55 Film ID 3512 -- Rotem 146, take 19 -- 00:00:22 to 00:11:04 Film ID 3513 -- Rotem 147, take 20 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:16 Film ID 3514 -- Rotem 148, take 21 -- 00:00:31 to 00:11:20 Film ID 3515 -- Rotem 149, take 22 -- 00:00:26 to 00:11:14 Film ID 3516 -- Rotem 150, take 22 sixte -- 00:00:32 to 00:11:15 Film ID 3517 -- Rotem 151, take 23 -- 00:00:41 to 00:13:19

    New York

    New York

    Film

    Location filming of scenes in New York City for SHOAH. FILM ID 3449 -- Camera Rolls NY 39.39A.139-142.161 La Ville -- 01:00:01 to 01:08:51 Car on Brooklyn Bridge going into Manhattan. World Trade Center (WTC) and Woolworth Building on left. Manhattan Municipal Building on right. Car on BB going towards Brooklyn. Financial District straight ahead. Major buildings from left to right Chemical Bank Building (at far left), 120 Wall Street (stepped design). The two tall buildings in BG are First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street (the tallest building in this group). 01:00:41 First, a view of Brooklyn, then the camera spins around showing the Financial District again. Statue of Liberty in distance. 01:01:01 Governors Island and Brooklyn. Yellow building is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). 01:01:15 Brooklyn Bridge coming into lower Manhattan with the Manhattan Municipal Building on the right. 01:01:22 Pace University on left, WTC between Pace University and Woolworth Building. 01:01:30 New York City Hall behind the trees. 01:01:45 FDR Drive heading north towards Brooklyn Bridge and South Street Seaport. 01:01:56 Fulton Fish Market, Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan Bridge in distance. 01:02:25 Manhattan Bridge. 01:02:43 FDR Drive going south and the Manhattan Bridge. 01:03:40 On-ramp to Brooklyn Bridge going into Brooklyn. After turn onto bridge, shots of the Manhattan Municipal Building, Murry Bergtraum High School, and New York Telephone Building on left. 01:03:56 In Lower Manhattan. St. Paul Chapel driving north. 01:04:17 World Trade Center. 01:05:22 Statue of Liberty. 01:05:52 Brooklyn Heights looking towards the Brooklyn Bridge. 01:06:25 Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan, WTC, Chase Manhattan Bank (left). 01:06:53 FDR Drive south with views of the Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge. FILM ID 3450 -- New York La Ville Doubles -- 01:00:00 to 01:08:37 Statute of Liberty and views of the lower Manhattan Financial District filmed from Brooklyn Heights. 01:00:32 Red Hook in Brooklyn. Pan of ships, Statue of Liberty, Staten Island Ferry Terminal, and the Financial District. 01:01:43 Brooklyn Heights' Promenade with a jogger running towards camera. Pedestrians strolling. Camera pulls back and shows Brooklyn Bridge looking towards Midtown Manhattan, then pan from north to south. In BG, Empire State Building, residential building, New York Telephone Building, Manhattan Municipal Building, World Trade Center, 120 Wall Street (stepped design), First National City Trust Co. and 60 Wall Street are the tall buildings in "front" of WTC. 01:02:15:09 Midtown Manhattan seen from the observation deck (86th floor) Empire State Building. Pan shot from west to east looking uptown, then camera pans down slightly and moves back from east to west. 01:02:57 Looking uptown from the World Trade Center observation deck (100th floor). Empire State Building straight ahead. Camera pans east to East River. Zoom-in of Domino's Sugar plant just past the bridge; the gas tanks in the BG were on Maspeth Ave. in Brooklyn. 01:03:33 Same as previous shot except starts with a closer shot of the Empire State Building, and zooms-in closer to Domino's. 01:04:10 Repeat of previous shot. 01:04:45 Shot from WTC of Brooklyn Bridge. Yellow building to right is the Watchtower Building (the world headquarters for the Jehovah Witnesses). Pan up the East River past the Manhattan Bridge to the Williamsburg Bridge and zoom-in on the Domino's Sugar plant. 01:05:17 Repeat of previous shot, except camera pulls back and pans to the left back to Manhattan and continues west stopping on the Empire State Building. 01:06:19 Manhattan Bridge from WTC. 01:06:39 Lower East Side or Jewish Orthodox neighborhood in Brooklyn. 01:06:53 Sunrise looking south towards WTC from ESB. Pan to the east side of lower Manhattan. 01:07:30 ESB looking south-east towards the Manhattan Bridge. 01:08:02 Dawn looking south towards WTC. Similar to previous shots. Clap-board on the ESB Observation Deck. FILM ID 4718 -- NY 42-46 Mount Kisco (28:19) Religious Jew wearing a suit and a yarmulke walks down a tree-lined road in Mount Kisco. He walks towards a group of children. Man riding a bicycle. Houses with large lawns. Street sign: “Yeshiva Rd.” (4:06) The road travels up a winding path. Two men in suits move to the side to let the car pass. The car pulls up to a huge, sprawling white building. Men in suits wearing yarmulkes. (7:43) A different side of the yeshiva at Mount Kisco with many windows and several curved archways. Young men in suits and hats stand, grin and walk around. Sound. A few men look out from open windows of the white building. (11:29) Sign in Hebrew. Sound. Inside a classroom with bookcases and desks, and an ornate platform with red drapery and a crest of two lions holding tablets between them. Large plaque in Hebrew. One wall of the room is covered in small plaques. Men stand around talking. Some sitting and reading. One man is singing. Words in Hebrew underneath the tablets. (16:34) An engraving of a menorah with Hebrew around it. Sign. (18:26) The forest surrounding the neighborhood. Two young boys play outside. (21:30) A crossroads sign says “Nitra Rd” one way and “Tora Rd” the other. (22:10) A “private property, no trespassing” sign. FILM ID 4719 -- NY 117-131 Bibliotheque Bund (28:35) Sound. Library interiors, books, black and white photos propped up on one wall. Man in a red sweater reading in the center of the room. Framed photographs set out on the table. (4:37) Books on the shelves in the library, most wrapped in paper, with numbers on the spines or Hebrew writing. (6:42) Signs on the bookshelves in Hebrew. Librarian stands beside the bookshelf. He is told from off camera “don’t look don’t look.” He smiles and looks down at the book in his hand. He starts speaking to someone off camera. He explains the purpose of the archive. (9:02) CUs, photographs on the table, portraits, including “Paul Jordan. The Unfinished Portrait.” The librarian explains the photographs speaking in Yiddish and in English. He begins to pull folders full of documents out of the cabinets below the bookshelves. He shows them a first edition book, and the different editions published in many different languages. The title is “Rok w. Treblinka.” (18:21) A storage room with boxes and folders filled with documents. A woman starts speaking about atrocities in Poland in English. The librarian holds open a folder, looking inside it. He goes into another storage room and looks through folders, pulling out documents. Someone off camera gives instructions in English. The man begins explaining what is inside the folders, specifically talking about telegrams. FILM ID 4720 -- Williamsburg Bte. 206, 223, 222 (16:39) No picture until 1:26. In the Willamsburg neighborhood, two boys moving a tire on a pole on a city sidewalk. Sign in Hebrew on a building. Children in yarmulkes play across the street in a gated yard while adults watch on. A school bus pulls up and two women get out. (3:38) On the side of the bus is “United Talmudical Academy D’Satmar.” Several shops, one of which says “Kosher Bakery.” Young men in yarmulkes and suits stand around and talk. (5:38) Sound. The men speak to Lanzmann in English. (7:30) Two women sit and talk on a bench outside rows of brownstones. (8:21) People walk down city sidewalks in the Williamsburg neighborhood. (12:10) Two men stand and talk in front of a sign in Hebrew. Crossroads sign, “Lee Ave” and “Williamsburgh West St.” (13:51) “Jacobowitz Clothing Chasidic Tailor” Sound. Highway signs above cars driving passed.

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin

    Film

    Motke Zaidel and Itzak Dugin are survivors of Vilna. They tell the story of their extraordinary escape from the Ponari camp, digging a tunnel for months, where the dogs that caught them backed away whimpering because the men smelled of death. The interview took place over two days in the forest of Ben Shemen (an Israeli forest resembling Ponari) and in Mr. Zaidel's apartment in Peta'h Tikva with the family of Zaidel. FILM ID 3782 -- Camera Rolls 2-4 -- Foret Ponari CR2 Lanzmann, Zaidel and Dugin meet in a forest in Israel which resembles the forest of Ponari, next to Vilna. Before the war the forest was a beautiful place to go on holiday. After the Holocaust, Zaidel says it no longer seems beautiful, he associates it with the martyrs of the region. There were eight mass graves in the forest. One held 24,000 bodies. Zaidel and Dugin were forced to count the bodies every day, for German records. CR3 Mr. Zaidel was born in a village called Zvilzianik, 24km from Vilna. He was not in the Vilna ghetto from the beginning. Mr. Dugin was in the ghetto from the beginning because he was born and raised in Vilna. Zaidel was born in 1925 and Dugin in 1916. Dugin remembers the poor treatment of the Jews before the ghetto was created. Germans led a pogrom there. When the Germans made the ghetto they created a system of certificates; whoever had a yellow certificate was sent to a second ghetto. Those without certificates were left in the first ghetto and eventually taken to the Ponari forest and executed. During the three days this lasted, Dugin hid with his family in a room as he did not have a certificate. Dugin describes the great fear all who lived in the ghetto experienced since they knew that every month they could be taken to be executed. There were 80,000 Jews in Vilna before the German occupation. After the first ghetto was liquidated, between 15,000 and 17,000 Jews were still alive. These Jews were put to work. CR4 Citizens of the Vilna ghetto knew that Jews were being killed in the Ponari forest. Peasants would hear gunshots, and survivors of executions in the forest would come back to the ghetto in the cover of darkness and talk about what had happened. Zaidel says while he harbored no illusions to what was going on, he always knew he would survive. Dugin had no such certitude at the time. Dugin was made to work in a group responsible for constructing roads and railroad tracks in a camp called Idnalina. When he was sent to work in Palimonacz in October, he realized that he would starve or freeze to death. He escaped and returned to the Vilna ghetto in 1942. He tried to get his parents and sisters to join him in Vilna, for the time thinking it was safe. But before they could make the trip to Vilna the definitive liquidation of the ghetto began. Dugin managed to escape, but lost all contact with his family. A resistance group was forming in the ghetto at the same time. FILM ID 3783 -- Camera Rolls 5-7-- Foret Ponari CR5 Dugin and Zaidel were not members of the resistance. They did not know each other before they were sent to work in the Ponari forest. While the ghetto was being liquidated a group of about fifty Jews from Vilna hid in a cave, called a malina, for about fifty days. Other malinas existed, Dugin also hid in one. The Germans kept two groups of Jews for labor: the Hakape which consisted of mechanics and metal workers, and the Kaïlich which consisted of tailors and other tradesmen. The Jews who could defend themselves left the ghetto early on and joined the Partisans. The Germans could not find the malinas. They only discovered them when people left to find food. These people were captured and tortured for information. The malina Dugin hid in held fifty people, of all ages, with difficulty. CR6 The Lithuanians were complicit in bringing Jews to the Vilna ghetto. Dugin did everything he could to avoid falling into the hands of either the Germans or the Lithuanians. He explains that for someone like him it was easier to escape, hide and survive. The will to survive existed in all victims, but it was more difficult to survive if someone had a family to take care of. Dugin lost contact with his parents when he fled the ghetto. When five people left the malina Dugin was hiding in, the Gestapo found them, tortured them, and then captured everyone hiding in the malina. Back in Gestapo headquarters in Vilna the able men were separated from the women, children and elderly who were taken away in trucks. Dugin says the men knew the women, children, and elderly were killed. Dugin thought he was going to be killed one morning when he was taken to the Ponari forest in the same trucks, but instead he was taken to work there cutting down trees. An initial group of forty workers was tasked with constructing two bunkers in the forest, one for the prisoners and one for the S.S. guards. When construction was completed, forty more workers were brought to help dispose of the ninety thousand dead bodies lying in mass graves in the forest. FILM ID 3784 -- Camera Rolls 7A,7,8 -- Foret Ponari CR7 Brief shots of Dugin without sound. The Obersturmführer told the prisoners working in the Ponari forest that their job was to erase the mess the Lithuanians had made. Lanzmann comments on how pitiful it was how the Germans were blaming others for the massacres they were responsible for. The Obersturmführer claimed that if they worked well, they would be permitted to go to Berlin and practice in their professions. Zaidel knew this to be a bluff, as it would be in the Nazis' interest to kill all who knew what was taking place. He and the other prisoners wondered what they could do to stay alive. In the meanwhile, the Obersturmführer made it clear no one would escape. He had them shackled, and threatened to hang the first attempted escapee from a nearby tree. There were 50-60 S.S. Nazis guarding the prisoners at the forest site, and 84 Jews. Eighty were men and 4 were women who worked in the kitchen. There were no children. Dugin came up with the idea to build a tunnel underneath the bunker. CR8 Zaidel describes the bunkers the prisoners and S.S. guards lived in. They were originally Russian-dug gas reservoirs. Out of seven, two had been lined with stones. The prisoners lived in one, and the Nazis in the other. The remaining pits contained the corpses of the Jews of Vilna who had been liquidated. When they finished building the bunkers, the Obersturmführer told the prisoners they would be disposing of the murdered bodies. Zaidel claims none of them had imagined that they would perform this work. The prisoners were shackled above their calves day and night, making it impossible to walk properly. There was a division of labor: some would open the mass graves, build pyres, transport bodies, remove gold teeth from the victims or pulverize the victims' bones. The ashes were mixed between layers of sand and dirt. 64,000 bodies were burned. FILM ID 3785-- Camera Rolls 9-11 -- Foret Ponari CR9 Each morning the groups of prisoners were given a different task. One group was responsible for building the pyres, an extensive process Dugin describes. The pyres were up to seven meters tall. The last few meters were made up of thousands of bodies, which Zaidel and Dugin would pour flammable fluids on, and then more kindling. The pyres would burn for seven or eight days. Dugin compares opening the graves to opening a tin of sardines: the bodies of the victims were tightly packed. The bodies underneath could have been there for up to eight months, and were often flattened by the pressure imposed on them by more recent bodies deposited on them. Chlorine was poured on each layer of bodies. 09:30 CR10 The bodies on top of the grave were recognizable. Some of the bodies were clothed, and one could tell from their uniform what sort of work they had performed. Dugin explains how they were forbidden from saying aloud the words "dead" and "victim." Instead, they had to refer to the murdered victims as "figurin", as figurines or rags. The prisoners made to carry the bodies were called "Figurenträger." Another workers, called the "Figurenziehen" opened the graves with the use of a large metal bar with a hook on the end. 14:26 CR11 The Germans ordered the workers to never use the words "dead" or "victim." If they did use them, the prisoners were beaten. The Germans did not give an explanation for this order. When they were first made to open the graves, the Germans had the prisoners work without the use of tools. The prisoners sobbed when they first saw the horror before them, and were thus beaten harshly by the guards and worked hard for two days without tools. The dead bodies were referred by Germans as, "Schaizdreck," meaning garbage, in an attempt to distance themselves from the reality of what they were doing: committing mass murder and hiding the evidence. Zaidel says that even after they had been rescued, no one could stand being near the prisoners for the smell of the dead and smoke clung to them. Zaidel tells of the time the Germans brought dogs with them to the forest. Zaidel smelled so strongly of death that one of the dogs ran away from him after it smelled his hand. FILM ID 3786 -- Camera Rolls 12-14 -- Foret Ponari CR12 When Zaidel and Dugin managed to escape the Ponari forest, their horrible stench saved them. They had stopped in exhaustion to rest under a tree when some Germans began to search near where they were. Even though one of the dogs smelled Zaidel, it did not give the two men away as they smelled just like all the dead victims in the area. After some time, the other prisoners became used to the smell of the corpses. They were made to take the boots off of the dead, clean them, and then wear them. Zaidel performed this work for four months, from January to April 1944. He claims that about 20 percent of the prisoners had the ability to overcome their situation, while the other 80 percent did not. At one point they opened up a smaller grave, and Dugin recognized his entire family, including his mother, three sisters and their children. He recognized them by their clothing, and even by their faces, as they were still somewhat preserved in the winter months. Another prisoner, Shalom Gol, recognized his wife and children. 13:08 CR13 Four generations of the Zaidel family sit together with Dugin in Zaidel’s apartment in Israel. Zaidel's wife, children, daughter-in-law, grand-daughter and mother-in-law are present. They introduce themselves. Dugin picks up the interview where it left off; in the forest where Dugin found his family in a mass grave. They had been hiding together in a malina when they were discovered. 21:23 CR14 The Nazis had the prisoners open the oldest graves first. Dugin discovered his family in the most recent grave, near the end of his time working in the Ponari forest. Discovering his family was a very difficult experience, he was not so numbed by what he had thus far experienced to not feel the horror of the discovery. The prisoners began forming their plan of escape one month into their time in the forest, after they realized they would not survive. They salvaged tools from the dead they burned, and also had the tools they used in their own trades. Zaidel worked as an electrician, lighting up the graves at night, and thus had screw drivers and pliers at his disposal. FILM ID 3787 -- Camera Rolls 15-18A -- Famille Ponari CR15 Seventy-nine men and 4 women were prisoners working in the Ponari forest. The youngest was a boy fifteen years old, and another was seventeen. A committee of about four people brainstormed the many escape plans. Zaidel’s daughter, Hanna, whispers into her father’s ear and Claude stops the filming to record what Hanna says. The interview goes on with Zaidel explaining that all of the prisoners were in agreement that they should escape via a tunnel under the bunker. CR16 Hanna Zaidel expresses that she would like them to explain why they chose to escape by digging a tunnel. They all understood that they had nothing to lose. It was very difficult work, digging with limited tools after a hard day of work. The foreman, Abraham Ambourg, was responsible for keeping check of the prisoners' actions and gestures and reporting then to the guards. He knew what the prisoners were up to. He too was a Jewish prisoner. 11:21 CR17 As they dug the tunnel, the prisoners had to reinforce the sandy walls with wooden beams they smuggled in. The biggest challenge was hiding the sand from the tunnel between walls and in the roof without being discovered. The tunnel ended up being 35-40 meters long, but about four meters in there was no air to light a candle. Zaidel built an electrical system to light up the tunnel. Digging the tunnel was a process: four men would enter the tunnel digging with their hands or tools salvaged from victims, until their hands bled. One of the prisoners, named Youri, was an engineer. He managed to steal a compass, which the prisoners used to dig the tunnel in the correct direction. Hanna makes a comment and Claude asks his interpreter for a translation. They did dig in the wrong direction once, and feared they would open out into one of the graves or the guard's bunker. CR18 Zaidel says that the prisoners would dig the tunnel in groups of four to six at a time. After an hour it would become too difficult to breathe, so another group would take over. Once, they were nearly discovered. The guards ordered a roll call while a group of prisoners were digging in the tunnel. However, the prisoners had made a signal using the electrical system Dugin had installed, and thus the prisoners in the tunnel were warned. Everyone was present for the roll call, a fact Zaidel claims he is still stunned by. 27:43 Clap for CR18 Zaidel explains how they believed they dug the wrong way. It took three months to dig the tunnel. Dugin was the first to break into open air. FILM ID 3788 -- Camera Rolls 19-21 -- Famille Ponari CR19 About half of the prisoners did not know about the escape plan until a few days before it happened. The prisoners who did know took care to work while the other prisoners were passed out from exhaustion. They knew they were reaching the end of their tunneling when the soil changed from sand into blacker dirt, interspersed with tree roots. With one last meter to dig there was discussion about the order they should leave. Dugin was assigned to go first as he knew the road outside and had the pliers needed to cut the fence. He wanted to leave last so that he could throw a rock into the mine field, killing all the guards, bunker and destroying the site, but as he knew the geography of the area he was assigned to go in the first group. 11:13 CR20 Only now in the interview does Itzhak Dugin tell Lanzmann that he was a prisoner along with his father and two brothers-in-law. Although his father was 55 at the time, he was very strong and thus selected to work in the Ponari forest. Both father and son had separate opportunities to escape, yet chose not to in order to stay together. The prisoners in charge of building the tunnel decided in what order everyone would exit. Each group was made up of about ten people, with one as the group leader. Those who were on the committee were first group to leave through the tunnel. The second group was comprised of the young men who intended to enlist with the partisans. Those who had worked the most on the tunnel were assigned an earlier exit group. 22:40 CR21 When everyone was informed of the escape plan they all felt joy, though they were always silent. Everyone was in agreement about escaping. Dugin cut his chains off with his pliers, and the chains of twenty men. After this, each person was responsible for cutting the chains of the person behind them. Zaidel and Lanzmann have a disagreement about the presence of a rabbi. From a previous interview with Shalom Gol, Lanzmann heard a story of a rabbi named Goschaus or Goschkaus, who performed a small religious service and elected to stay behind as he felt too old to escape. Zaidel does not remember this incident at all but claims he would if it had happened. FILM ID 3789 -- Camera Rolls Zaidel 22-24 -- Famille Ponari CR22 Once Dugin had opened the end of the tunnel, they cut the electricity. When he stuck his head out of the tunnel Dugin saw a group of German soldiers looking in the direction of their tunnel exit. Dugin claims the exit of the tunnel was so precise it was only half a meter away from where they had planned it to be. With so many people leaving from the tunnel, the prisoners were discovered and fired upon with machine guns. Dugin and his group began to crawl into the forest, but only about one hundred meters in Dugin heard soldiers and had to change his direction. He fell into an unopened grave and told his group to continue without him, but they ran into some guards and another alarm was sounded. The dry branches they walked on gave them away. 11:14 CR23 Only about fifteen Jewish prisoners managed to escape the Ponari forest, and some were wounded by gunfire and mines. Zaidel thinks not everyone made it through the tunnel. Dugin's father and brothers-in-law did not survive, only those in the first two groups managed to run away. Zaidel's daughter, Hanna, tells Lanzmann how her father did not speak about his experiences while she was growing up. She had to wrest the details from him over the years. 20:04 CR24 Hanna claims to love her father just as any other daughter would a father, his experiences haven't changed that. She claims that the attitude people have in Israel towards Holocaust survivors isn't a good one, but doesn't elaborate what that attitude is. She describes how Holocaust survivors are often tired of life, and find it very difficult to live a normal life. FILM ID 3790 -- Coupes Foret Ponari Silent shots of the forest, some scenes with Dugin and Zaidel in the distance then walking towards the camera. A man walks across the field with a briefcase. FILM ID 3791 -- Coupes Foret Ponari -- Camera Rolls unidentified, 5D,3A,7B,8B,10A,8C,7C,8A Silent shots of the field. CUs of Dugin with sunglasses. Dugin and Zaidel seated beside one another, various CUs. 6:47 CUs of Lanzmann in the forest sitting on a tree stump. FILM ID 3792 -- Coupes Famille Ponari – Camera Rolls 22A,23B,24A,24D,24B,22B,23A,24C VAR silent shots of the Zaidel family in the apartment. 

    Franz Suchomel

    Franz Suchomel

    Film

    Lanzmann interviewed Franz Suchomel, who was with the SS at Treblinka, in secret at the Hotel Post in April 1976. This was the first interview Lanzmann filmed with the newly developed hidden camera known as the Paluche, and he paid Suchomel 500 DM. In the outtakes, Suchomel provides further details about the treatment of Jews at the camp, as well as a more ambivalent memory of his experiences than is apparent in the released "SHOAH". FILM ID 3753 -- Camera Rolls 1-2 Lanzmann asks Suchomel to describe his arrival at Treblinka and Suchomel tells of his shock at finding himself with seven other Germans from Berlin in a concentration camp, whereas in Berlin, he had been told he would be going to a resettlement area, supervising tailors and shoemakers. It was the height of the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto, and during a tour of the camp, he saw the doors of the gas chamber being opened and people falling out "like potatoes." Suchomel and his group were crying "like old women," and Suchomel asked Eberl, the Commandant, to be sent back to Berlin, but Eberl told him he would be sent to the front with the Waffen SS, a sure death. Suchomel hid out and drank vodka to adjust to "the inferno." He says that he learned that the corpses stacked at the railroad tracks were from three daily trains carrying 5,000 people, of whom 3,000 fell out dead on arrival, many by suicide. A new commandant, Christian Wirth, was able to stop the transports so that the corpses could be buried. At this point, there were no "worker Jews," as all the Jews dragging corpses into the trenches were chased into the gas chambers in the evening or shot. FILM ID 3754 -- Camera Rolls 3-4 Wirth reorganized the Germans, and assigned Suchomel to be head of the "Gold Jews." Lanzmann asks if the Poles in the surrounding villages could smell the odor and Suchomel says everyone knew what was going on in the camp. He says that the Poles were not fond of the Jews but they were also scared. Suchomel describes "the tube" in which 100 men or women were sent to the gas chambers at a time. Some even jockeyed for position, not knowing they were going to their deaths. Many had to wait in the barracks up to three days without food and only a bucket of water because of gas chambers' lack of capacity. Suchomel confirms that the method was carbon monoxide from a truck motor, rather than Zyklon B. When Wirth came, he forced Germans and Jewish prisoners to move the piles of corpses to the trenches. Lanzmann questions the use of Germans, but Suchomel insists that they were ordered to do so. Under Wirth, a new gas chamber was built in September. FILM ID 3755 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 In the new gas chamber perhaps 200 could fit in at a time and 3,000 people could be "done" in two hours. Lanzmann says that Auschwitz could handle a lot more than that and Suchomel says Auschwitz was a factory, and that though Treblinka was primitive, it was "a well-functioning assembly line of death." Belzec was the laboratory in which Wirth tried everything out before coming to Treblinka. Suchomel describes the second phase of his time at Treblinka after Wirth came, and says the killing went much faster. Lanzmann mentions 18,000 per day, but Suchomel says that the number is too high. Suchomel explains how transports came from Malkinia, ten kilometers away. 30 to 50 train cars arrived, of which varying numbers went on to Treblinka, the rest remaining behind. At the ramp, two Jews from the Blue Detachment ordered the passengers out, supervised by ten Ukrainians and five Germans. The Red Detachment processed the clothing in the undressing room. It took two hours from arrival to death. People had to wait, naked, to enter the gas chamber, and it was very cold by Christmas. Since the women had to get their hair cut and thus wait longer, Suchomel claims that he told the barbers to go slower so they could remain inside. Suchomel describes the "tube" as camouflaged by branches. If the male prisoners resisted entering, they were whipped by Ukrainian guards. Suchomel says he does not know of women being beaten. He says he is often ashamed. Lanzmann responds that Suchomel is the reporter of these historical events. FILM ID 3756 -- Camera Rolls 5-10 chutes Suchomel says that some people got rich by fleecing the Warsaw Jews, but in later phases the people were so poor that the women didn't even have wedding rings, having given them up to Poles at Malkinia in exchange for water. Suchomel claims that if he ever reported violence among the prisoners his SS superior told him not to interfere if Jews were beating Jews. Lanzmann asks about the hospital. It was the Blue Detachment's responsibility to accompany those selected by the SS. Once there, people undressed and sat down on a dirt embankment where they were shot in the neck. They were mostly old and sick people who would have disrupted the smooth processing of the assembly line. Suchomel says he couldn't get out of the vicious cycle because he knew of two regime secrets: euthanasia in Berlin and Treblinka. Referring again to the hospital, he explains that people were fooled by the Red Cross flag flying over it. He says that those who arrived in cattle cars with one bucket among them had to be cleaned up by the Blue Detachment upon arrival. The Escort Detachment consisted of Ukrainians and Latvians; the former could be bribed, but the latter not, as they were committed Jew haters. Many passengers committed suicide or died of illness during the transport, most of the rest had gone crazy. Being part of all this, Suchomel tells Lanzmann caused him to have a nervous breakdown and to turn to alcohol. Lanzmann wants more details about the hospital and Suchomel explains that [SS man Willi] Mentz was the neck-shot specialist and people fell into a pit where there was always a fire going. FILM ID 3757 -- Camera Rolls 11-12 Lanzmann asks which was the better way to die and Suchomel says the neck shot was, because it was quicker; in the gas chamber, with one motor servicing three or four gas chambers, death could take twenty minutes. Suchomel describes his position as the German in charge of the "Gold Jews." He claims that he was harshly punished by Wirth for once allowing a young girl to keep a piece of jewelry. Lanzmann asks about the vaginal exams alleged at Suchomel's trial, but Suchomel says that never happened, as the whole process was designed to move masses of people through the system at top speed. He says that once women knew they were going to their deaths, they cut the veins of their children with razor blades, so the children would die more quickly in the gas chambers. After they gave up their valuables to Suchomel's department the women sat on benches and had their hair cut. In response to a question from Lanzmann Suchomel says he thinks he recognizes the name of Abraham Bomba. FILM ID 3758 -- Camera Rolls 13-16 After an interruption Lanzmann again asks Suchomel about Bomba. Suchomel says that the Jews were robbed of their human dignity, the SS even took the hair on their heads, and they were treated worse than cattle. Lanzmann asks if Suchomel saw the prisoners as human beings and Suchomel says that he always did, that he was often nauseous and couldn't cope, especially if German Jews came through. He tells of one woman from Berlin who cursed at him and offered herself to him sexually, hoping that insulting the honor of an SS man would force him to shoot her, sparing her the gas chamber. He claims that he talked with her and they drank a bottle of wine together before she was gassed. Suchomel explains again that the excrement in the "tube" was a result of the terror of the women who had to wait while hearing the truck motor and the screaming in the chambers. For the men, there was no waiting, as they were chased through the "tube." Under Commandant Wirth, the unloading, sorting of clothes, herding of prisoners into the chambers had to done quickly, but the removal and burial of corpses took longer. FILM ID 3759 -- Camera Rolls 17-19 After Katyn became known, in order to destroy the evidence the corpses were dug up and burned in pits with grills made from railroad iron. When no transports arrived in the winter of 1943 and there were still 500-600 "worker Jews," they were given so little to eat that typhus broke out and killed many of them; the rest no longer believed that they would be spared by the SS and told Suchomel that they were just "corpses on vacation." Suchomel prided himself on chatting with his Polish and Czech worker Jews, including women prisoners, in his workshop and letting them have concerts and meetings there. Suchomel says that the Eastern transports came in livestock cars, whereas the Germans and Czech Jews from Theresienstadt arrived in passenger cars, believing they were being resettled. The Eastern Jews were beaten, but the Western Jews were not. Suchomel claims that he spoke with Rudi Masaryk about logistics for escape. Suchomel tells of encountering an old school friend from the Sudentenland and says he offered to save him and his wife. However, the wife had already been killed and the husband chose to die as well. FILM ID 3760 -- Camera Rolls 20-22 -- 01:00:16 to 01:31:34 [This is the only reel of picture preserved as of 2015.] CR20 Lanzmann secretly films Franz Suchomel in what appears to be living room. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about his time working in Treblinka. The tube, the pathway the Jewish prisoners were forced to walk through on their way to the gas chambers, was referred to as "The Way to Heaven," "Ascension Way," and "The Last Road," by the prisoners. Suchomel only ever heard the latter two names while working in Treblinka. [No image 01:01:02 to 01:01:10] The transports of Jews from the East arrived in cattle cars, while the transports from the west arrived passenger train cars. At this point in the interview Suchomel requests asks to pause as he is experiencing heart pain. He has angina pectoris. Lanzmann asks him if the pain in brought on by emotion, which Suchomel confirms. After a short pause, the interview picks back up. Suchomel claims the Jews brought from the west were not beaten on their way to the gas chambers. Nevertheless, Jews from the west and east all ended up in the gas chambers. Stangl, Franz and Küttner ordered a façade of a train station to be constructed, complete with flowers throughout the camp, counters, train schedules and a clock. The camp was given the fictitious station name "Ober Maiden," to keep the prisoners calm. 01:10:14 CR21 Lanzmann asks if the SS guards were more afraid of a revolt from the Jews from the west or the east. Suchomel begins telling the story of the Treblinka revolt. He claims he saved the life of a Jewish prisoner twice, Rudi Masaryk, and told him where weapons were located in case Masaryk wanted to escape. Lanzmann tells Suchomel he is not asking about the revolt [recording stops from 01:12:33 to 01:12:38]. The interview continues with Suchomel telling Lanzmann about a Czech transport carrying a former schoolmate, his brother and father. Suchomel says he tried to save his friends life but after he found out his three month pregnant wife had already been gassed, he did not want to live. His brother asked Suchomel to save him, but since his face was beaten green and blue, Suchomel would not save him. When asked why he would not save a man who had been beaten, Suchomel says that is was a standard procedure and cannot further elaborate. Suchomel states that only the worker Jews who were no longer wanted were beaten. [Audio continues after filming stops] 01:20:45 CR22 Franz Küttner would beat prisoners when he felt like it. If the prisoner was not given express permission, this was a death sentence as the prisoners face was marked. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he is alright, as he appears to be in pain. Recounting his experience pains him emotionally and physically, and the interview continues after a moment. The SS guards were worried about the transport of Jews from the Bialystok ghetto. Upson arrival, the men threw bottles and small hand grenades at the guards. When they were unloaded from the train they beat up and wounded with a knife or razor blade Kapo Meier. Kapo Meier was allowed to recover and live instead of being sent to the fake camp hospital, the Lazaret. Suchomel claims he tried to make life as pleasant as possible for the Jews working in his workshops. Jews in the camp began to destroy currency that prisoners brought with them. Jews arriving from Warsaw, Tschenstau and Bialystok in the beginning carried lots of money, which Suchomel’s workshop was in charge of sorting and even gluing together when prisoners ripped it up. His Gold Jews sorted currencies, jewelry and glasses, which were all used for the war. Gold teeth were brought from Camp II, after they had been pried from the mouths of the dead. [Audio continues after filming stops] FILM ID 3761 -- Camera Rolls 23-25 Suchomel says that he once intervened on behalf of one of his Jewish workers, who was caught with money, then savagely beaten by an SS officer. Though rescued, the worker did not want to be saved and was shot. Upon questioning by Lanzmann about taking money himself, Suchomel insists that he didn't, that he knew the punishment and was too cowardly to risk that. They talk again about the black market economy around the camp. Polish farmers sent their children to the fence to sell him and his workers food. Suchomel explains that ten prostitutes were brought in for the Ukrainian guards, not for the Germans. It was too dangerous for the Germans to go into the surrounding villages, so instead, they got frequent vacations. Lanzmann asks if the prostitutes knew that this was an extermination camp and Suchomel says that everyone, including the villagers and the Polish underground army knew. Lanzmann asks Suchomel about the assertion that "the Jews went to their deaths like sheep to the slaughterhouse." FILM ID 3762 -- Camera Rolls 26-28 Suchomel replies that people don't know how demoralized the Jews were by the time they reached Treblinka. He speculates on the causes of hatred toward Jews: years of blaming them for misfortunes, greed and envy. He knows from his own experiences that most Polish and Czech Jews were poor. Lanzmann asks Suchomel if he feels guilt about his role in Treblinka and Suchomel replies that he is ashamed to have been there and that he feels guilty, yet he quickly adds that his court records show that individual Jews testified in his favor. He says he couldn't stand up to the authorities because of the need to protect his family. Since he was a carrier of two state secrets he couldn't be assigned elsewhere. By chance, he also learned of a third secret, Operation Brand, wherein the Germans euthanized those victims of bombing raids in Germany who were severely injured or became mentally ill. Suchomel says he did not think about suicide, just survival for himself and his family, and that he will have to live with this burden for the rest of his life. He claims that even then he saw Hitler as the biggest mass murderer in history, but couldn't say that to anyone. FILM ID 3763 -- Camera Rolls 29-30 Suchomel claims he was called "Yom Kippur" by the Jews because he never beat any of them, except two Berlin Jews. He was also called the "Gold Boss." Lanzmann urges Suchomel to sing the Treblinka song, which the prisoners had to sing every morning and evening. Suchomel sings it twice at Lanzmann's bidding, but is concerned that if neo-Nazis heard it, they would call him "a pig." FILM ID 3764 -- Camera Rolls 31-32 Lanzmann asks what Suchomel remembers most vividly, the euthanasia period or Treblinka. Suchomel says that Treblinka will always be with him, a vicious cycle from which he couldn't free himself. Responding to Lanzmann's questions again about a revolt, Suchomel says that after the Warsaw ghetto uprising was put down, his worker Jews lost all hope of surviving because even the Jews who had worked for the Germans in the ghetto were shot. Some of the surviving ghetto Jews who were brought to Treblinka, however, infected the camp Jews and that's how the will for a revolt began. Discussing Christian Wirth, Suchomel calls him the most brutal man he knows. He was a skilled organizer and was head inspector for Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Lublin. He was a Jew-hater and everyone was afraid of him. Lanzmann pays Suchomel for the interview and asks Suchomel how he feels about being paid by a Jew. Suchomel says that the money is compensation, not a reward for the interview. "Why compensation?" Lanzmann asks and Suchomel says he will suffer for having brought all the old memories to light. Lanzmann wants another interview and gives his word of honor that he will not "betray anything." Suchomel gives his word of honor that they will meet again, but not soon. --- The following reels contain only audio. --- FILM ID 3485 -- Audio Reel #1-1-2 FILM ID 3486 -- Audio Reel #3-4 FILM ID 3487 -- Audio Reel #5-6-7-8 FILM ID 3488 -- Audio Reel #9-10-11 FILM ID 3489 -- Audio Reel #12-13 FILM ID 3490-- Audio Reel #13-14-14-15-16 FILM ID 3491-- Audio Reel #17-18-18 FILM ID 3492-- Audio Reel #19-20 FILM ID 3493-- Audio Reel #21-22 FILM ID 3494-- Audio Reel #23-24-25 FILM ID 3495 -- Audio Reel #26-27 FILM ID 3496-- Audio Reel #28-29-30 FILM ID 3497-- Audio Reel #31-32

    Raul Hilberg

    Raul Hilberg

    Film

    Raul Hilberg is the author of the seminal book, "The Destruction of the European Jews." In this interview with Claude Lanzmann for SHOAH, Hilberg discusses several aspects of his research, including the culpability of the German railways in the deportation process of European Jews, as well as the significant roles Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner played in the genocide of the European Jews. Hilberg also addresses the general bureaucratic processes at work in the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem. Hilberg is filmed in his home in Burlington, Vermont and on campus at the University of Vermont, probably in late November 1978. FILM ID 3768 -- Camera Rolls 1-3 CR1 Hilberg discusses the various means by which the genocide of the European Jews was enacted. Hilberg's research focuses on the railroad system (Reichsbahn), as transportation was a critical element in the successful implementation of the Final Solution. Hilberg explains that a clearer understanding of the railroads, which were generally ignored until he began his research, further reveals the extent to which Nazi Germany acted as a totalitarian society. Hilberg states that the Reichsbahn operated with the same "effectiveness and relentlessness" of other bureaucratic agencies and institutions. Like other agencies, the Reichsbahn approached the Jewish Problem with technical solutions. CR2 Hilberg discusses the banality of the operation and decision-making of the Reichsbahn, the German railway system. The Reichsbahn would transport any cargo--supplies, raw goods, even people--for compensation. The Official Travel Bureau handled the billing details for the regular travel of citizens, as well as the mass deportation of Jews. The Reichsbahn acknowledged no difference between the mass deportations of Jews and the regular trains, as long as appropriate payment was made. Hilberg discusses the administrative problems and compromises made between the Army and the Reichsbahn regarding the funding of the mass deportations. CR3 Hilberg discusses the banal operation and scheduling of trains within the Reichsbahn. He provides reasons for the surprising lack of priority-scheduling for the deportation trains. Hilberg describes the administrative difficulties of trying to schedule the Sonderzug, the "special trains," that acted as deportation trains between the regularly scheduled trains. FILM ID 3769 -- Camera Rolls 4-6 CR4 Hilberg discusses the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug by examining a document from the Generalbetreibsleitung Ost (General Business Line) for the Reichsbahn, dated January 16, 1943. Hilberg discusses the bureaucracy of the Reichsbahn, as he points out how the administrator for the Personenwagen (the regular trains) also approved the scheduling of the Sonderzug. Several officials from the Generalbetreibsleitung would coordinate the regional schedules and produce documents like the one Hilberg shares with Lanzmann. CR5 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. The Fahrplananordnung, dated September 15, 1942, documents the times each train arrived and left each station, as well as when the trains were emptied. Hilberg emphasizes the bureaucratic nature of the Reichsbahn, despite its involvement in the mass genocide of the European Jews, by how the document is not "classified." The transparency of the Fahrplananordnung reveals how all levels of German economy were participating willingly in the Final Solution. CR6 Hilberg explains the complicated scheduling of the Sonderzug (the deportation trains) by examining a Reichsbahn document. Hilberg analyzes the specifics of the Fahrplananordnung No. 587, such as how many train cars the transport carried, what time the train arrived, and then when the train had to be ready for another transport. Hilberg describes how documents like the Fahrplananordnung No. 587 are significant to his research because they are the only remaining artifacts that connect him to the bureaucrats who organized the deportations. These documents are the physical proof of how mundane, yet efficient, procedures played critical roles in the destruction of the European Jews. Picture is MISSING sound for part of CR6 - listen to Audio FV3458. FILM ID 3770 -- Camera Rolls 7,8 Silent CUs, German documents including the Fahrplananordnung and Hilberg’s book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” FILM ID 3771 -- Camera Rolls 9-11 CR9 Hilberg describes the length of the train journey for Jews, particularly the Greek Jews to Auschwitz. He emphasizes the significance of the railroads and ordinary men in the Nazi machinery of destruction. Hilberg points out that the railroad resumed operations very quickly in the post-war period and several key men were able to pursue their careers. Sound cuts out and ends abruptly with Hilberg mid-sentence. CR10 Hilberg describes the lack of prosecution of railroad officials following the war. As an institution that played a critical role in making the Final Solution feasible, the Reichsbahn's reputation remained untarnished for many years after the war. Hilberg believes that the conversations about culpability must be explored because it is only with a clear understanding of the role the Reichsbahn played that we can fully grasp the totalitarian and mobilized nation that was Nazi Germany. Hilberg begins to address the prerequisites that needed to exist for the Final Solution to have been made possible in Europe. CR11 Hilberg explains how it is the nature of bureaucratic institutions to implement the ideologies and actions from history in their own modern crusades. In the case of Nazi Germany, the Final Solution was the only unprecedented element at play. Hilberg says that the Final Solution was the inevitable step after the incidents of mandatory conversion and Jewish expulsion within history did not solve the Jewish Problem. Hilberg identifies how the invention to totally annihilate European Jews was problematic for the Regime because was that there was no historical precedence from which to learn. Nazi Germany began to carry out the Final Solution with only a general direction in mind. While many people in retrospect understand the efficiency of Auschwitz to be indicative of the whole system of Jewish genocide from the onset, Hilberg points out that this was not the case. The Final Solution eventually became well-defined and highly-efficient after the chaotic and disastrous first steps had been made. FILM ID 3772 -- Camera Rolls 12-15 CR12,13 Hilberg names specific examples of how the Nazi decrees of the 1930s were reiterations of similar anti-Jewish legislation from history. Hilberg explains that beyond the synods and laws enacted against Jews throughout history, the racist themes from Nazi propaganda were also present in historical church literature. Hilberg discusses the sequential process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. The confiscation of Jewish property began with the removal of all Jews from civil service positions in 1933. This was followed by Aryanization laws, which seized Jewish enterprises and large businesses. Hilberg notes how ironically many Germans were reluctant to change the names of the former Jewish businesses in fear of tarnishing their economic success with new labels. CR14 Hilberg discusses the process of seizing Jewish property and eliminating Jewish autonomy. Nazi Germany imposed strict wage regulations and taxes, as well as the seizure of large properties and retirement pensions. Personal possessions and apartments were confiscated and redistributed to German families affected by the war, as Jews were relocated in ghettos. Hilberg partially attributes the impetus for the first deportations to the significant apartment shortage in Germany. Hilberg describes the last sequence of confiscating Jewish property, as possessions were seized during roundups and finally removed after they were gassed. CR15 Hilberg discusses the inefficiencies of the Final Solution, particularly regarding ghettoization. The use of Jews as free labor within the ghettos caused many Jews to wrongfully believe that they would not be killed so long as they worked. Hilberg emphasizes that the ultimate ideology of Nazi Germany, however, held that "a Jew is a Jew." Nothing would save the Jews, not even the economic gain that their free labor provided for the regime. FILM ID 3773 -- Camera Rolls 16-18 CR16 Hilberg explains the time of uncertainty leading up to the implementation of the Final Solution. He explains that while the plan was not clear and the goal not fully articulated, the general direction was inevitable as early as 1933. A period of hesitation between the second half of 1940-1941 and the unmanaged destruction of Operation Barbarossa in June 1941 prompted the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942. Hilberg explains that all participants understood the gravity of the Final Solution conference, as it was the end of the period of uncertainty. CR17 Hilberg explains that Operation Barbarossa, which had been in the works as early as July 1940, marked the point of focus of the Final Solution. Hilberg describes how at this point in time, orders were more defined on the Eastern Front. Yet, there was still no clear idea of what to do with the Jewish population in Europe. Hilberg discusses the use of Fuhrerbehfel and the power of inferred directives. CR18 Hilberg discusses the initial stages of invention as Nazi Germany began to plan the Final Solution. He describes a letter Rolf Heinz Hoppner sent to Adolf Eichmann on July 16, 1941 in which he proposes mass execution to solve the problems within the ghetto system. Hilberg suggests that Nazi officials were increasingly aware of the focused direction in which the Final Solution was headed by 1941. However, the Reich's first solution to send the ghetto Jews out East where the Einsatzgruppen (the task forces responsible for mass executions) were already operating quickly needed to be amended. By the end of 1941, the Einsatzgruppen began to utilize gas vans for the extermination of women and children. FILM ID 3774 -- Camera Roll 19,20,26,21,22 CR19 Hilberg describes the chaotic state of Poland by the end of 1940 and into 1941, as the Reich continued to deport Jews to the Eastern Front. Hilberg describes how the East was a vague concept for even high ranking Nazi officials, and the constant transports to the Eastern Front forced Reich officials to begin working on concrete solutions to the Jewish Problem. In December 1941, the first deportation of the Łódź Jews was sent to the extermination camp in Chelmno. CR20 Hilberg describes the Einsatzgruppen, the special operation force that was responsible for mass killings in the East. Hilberg describes the Seelisch Belastung, or psychological distress, that the Einsatzgruppen experienced, as well as the gas vans at Chelmno. The lack of secrecy of the Einsatzgruppen's operations, as well as the effects the perpetrators experienced following the pogroms, contributed to the Nazi Regime's push for secrecy. Camp enclosures and gas chambers were constructed to hide the reality of the Final Solution from the civilians and the victims. CR26 “2 perfo 404” Hilberg continues to discuss why the Germans didn’t want the information about the killings to be known. CR21 Lanzmann introduces the concept of secrecy and Hilberg responds that the secrecy of the Final Solution relied upon how many people knew about the camps (“a quantitative issue”) and more importantly how many people believed and openly talked about what was happening in the camps. The Nazi regime cultivated a language of euphemisms, keeping those who knew the reality of the situation from saying anything condemning or giving victims an explanation. CR22 Hilberg continues to talk about secrecy and the attempt to reduce anxiety or reinforce hope among the Jewish community about their fate. They talk about the amount of information in contrast to the amount of silence. FILM ID 3775 -- Camera Rolls 27-29 CR27 Lanzmann briefly explains that Czerniakow was the Jewish Chairman (Judenrat) for the Warsaw ghetto, and that no other diary like Czerniakow’s has been discovered. Hilberg calls the diary the most unique and important document from the Jewish perspective about the Holocaust. Hilberg says that Czerniakow recorded every day over a three-year period in his diary, in a very honest and matter-of-fact style, up until the day he took his life on July 23, 1942. It covers all subjects relevant to life in the ghetto including “food, space, labor, hostages, children, shootings, violence, deportations, ghettoization.” Hilberg says the diary transcends time, acting as a “window” into the Jewish community. Lanzmann says Czerniakow never had any illusions, to which Hilberg responds that Czerniakow never had the illusion of himself being a great man. CR28 Lanzmann mentions that Czerniakow was different, because he commits suicide instead of doing the terrible things that the three other chairmen did. Czerniakow had a bottle of cyanide pills in his drawer. In his diary, he was always talking about the end, knowing even in the first week that the Germans would soon come. He knew about the ghetto wall being built and was not surprised by the events that unfolded. Lanzmann asks why Czerniakow took the job, and why did he keep it. Hilberg says he took it when the existing chairman of the Jewish community fled, and he felt a sense of responsibility. Up until that point, at 59 years old, Czerniakow was not a majorly successful or prominent figure in the Polish Jewish community. His life goals were to be loyal and steadfast. Czerniakow says in his diary that he suffers because of his job, but he does it because he has to, “as a matter of duty”. Hilberg highlights two parts of the diary: 1) a woman in Warsaw who reburied her love, representing the highest virtue and 2) a conversation in the Jewish council about mentors. CR29 The camera momentarily focuses on a book in front of Hilberg that says “Documents of Destruction” before panning right and zooming out on Hilberg. Hilberg continues to tell the story of the boy who was shot. To Czerniakow this boy was a representation of a mentor, of loyalty. Hilberg discusses how Czerniakow’s diary reveals that he despised all emigrants. He believed that they were not helping the Jewish community by being on the outside, even if they said they were leaving with those intentions. Czerniakow thought it was better to stay, even if it meant collaborating with the Germans. Hilberg then highlights the paradoxical dilemma of those members of the Jewish council. Lanzmann focuses on this idea of collaboration, asking Hilberg what he thinks about the people who call the Jewish councilmen collaborators. Hilberg says that one really needs to put themselves in the perspective of the Jews at that time. Camera zooms out. Hilberg says that this concept of collaboration may not really have existed at the time, because there was not a single Jewish person who would have wanted to aid the German cause. When Germans put the Jewish people in these positions of power, they weren’t choosing them, they were just appointing the men who were “on hand”. At least they were from within the Jewish community, rather than Germans from the outside. CU of Hilberg as he says that this was the real disaster, because this way they managed to retain the trust and allegiance of the Jewish people. They discuss Jewish traitors. Hilberg says that the Jews did not ever mean to help the Germans, and when it happened, they were actually making those extreme concessions in order to help the Jews. If they could not do that, they would commit suicide as Czerniakow did. Zooms out. Hilberg mentions how briefly he talked about Jews aiding in their own downfall. Hilberg says that he really elaborated on the story since then and tries to relay it in a more consoling way. Lanzmann suggests the term “human”. FILM ID 3776 -- Camera Rolls 30-32 CR30 Hilberg discusses the morale-building devices Adam Czerniakow organized in the Warsaw Ghetto. Hilberg believes that the festivals reflected Czerniakow's desire to display hope and the continuity of life despite the inevitability of death facing the people of the Warsaw Ghetto. CR31 Hilberg describes Adam Czerniakow's appeals to the deportation notices scheduled for July 22, 1942. Czerniakow fought for the survival of orphans above all others as he petitioned to the Germans. CR32 Hilberg discusses the "mute heroism" of the Jewish community. Hilberg rationalizes Jewish passivity to the deportations. Hilberg describes how their rationalization was a mistake, as most people did not recognize that the deportations were indicative of the solution to wipe out their entire population. FILM ID 3777 -- Camera Rolls 33,43,44 CR33 Hilberg discusses the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which took place between April 19 and May 16, 1943. He describes how the Warsaw Jews' violent resistance to Nazi Germany was an indication that they understood the fate of the Jewish race in Europe. Hilberg notes how the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was a unique and significant moment because it was unlike the classic appeals and concessions Jewish leaders made to their persecutors throughout history. CR43 Hilberg discusses the ways in which various Jewish Councils were engaged in hope and how they appealed to Germans in order to save the Jewish population. Hilberg describes how the Jewish Councils often complied with the deportation lists because many of them believed that sacrificing some Jews would ensure the survival of the general population. Hilberg describes this as a "formula for disaster," as it did not appease the Nazi regime, nor did it save more lives. CR44 Hilberg discusses the deportation situation in Hungary and the role Rudolf Kasztner (a leader of the Rescue Committee) played in the destruction of the Hungarian Jews. Hilberg notes how Kasztner had an unusual-albeit correct-understanding of the Final Solution. Unlike Adam Czerniakow and other Jewish council men who wrote and approved deportation lists, Kasztner composed a list of names of Hungarian Jews to save. The rest of the Hungarian Jews were deported to camps. FILM ID 3778 -- Camera Rolls 35,36,37,38,39 CR35 Silent shots of the University of Vermont campus in Burlington. Hilberg exits a building and walks along the sidewalk. CR36 More shots of campus and Hilberg. CR37 Similar shots, pan of campus, American flag, automobile traffic. CR38 UVM campus and suburban homes. CR39 Brief INTs of HIlberg’s home with Hilberg and Lanzmann seated during the interview. FILM ID 3779 -- Camera Rolls 45-49 CR45 Hilberg explains why he gives credit to Jewish leaders like Adam Czerniakow and Rudolf Kasztner, who were put in the difficult position of approving deportations and compromising with Nazi Germany. Hilberg credits the men with the ability to see the reality of the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem over the illusion they would have preferred to be true. CR46,47 Hilberg describes the Nazi regime's bureaucratic process of eliminating Jewish autonomy in Europe. He notes the Nazi regime's total seizure of power over Jewish life, as the Reichsvertretugg, the organization that represented all German Jews regardless of political, religious, or social differences, was subsumed by the Interior Ministry in 1939. The organization would eventually aid in the deportation of German Jews. Hilberg proceeds to explain the bizarre nature of the all-encompassing, bureaucratic system. Hilberg explains how mundane procedures were necessary in order to implement the Final Solution. This meant that solutions to transportation, billing, and housing, among other things needed to be solved as the system continued to work. Hilberg describes how everyone participated in helping solve these administrative and psychological problems at one time or another. CR48,49 Hilberg discusses the Nazi Regime's bureaucratic process of defining a 'Jew.' There was a great need to determine what separated a Jew from an Aryan before the larger process of removing Jews could be implemented. Hilberg describes how an entire profession of researching family histories was created to aid in the bureaucratic sorting system. Courts were also given more business, as appeals to decisions of race were made. The problem of "mischlinge," people with partial Aryan heritage, became too complicated an issue to solve, as Nazi officials identified varying degrees of mischlinge within German society. Hilberg notes how the Nazi regime chose every time to protect Germany economy and Aryan society. Therefore, problems were always resolved by making things more difficult for Jews, rather than pardoning them or making exceptions. Hilberg discusses the initiative and responsibility assumed by different sectors of the administrative regime. Hilberg describes how the Civil Service, the Army, the German industry, and the Nazi Party pursued their own set of goals and personal successes. The four sectors were forced from time to time to solve problems together in order to continue their general movement towards the Final Solution. FILM ID 3780 -- Camera Rolls 50-51 CR50 Hilberg discusses how the Nazi Party ideologists did not play a major role in the bureaucratic system that implemented the Final Solution. Instead, experts from the German industry played a major role in the success of the German economy and the efficiency of the camps. Hilberg discusses IG Farben as a company that played a major role in the destruction of the Jewish population. CR51 Hilberg discusses the presence of IG Farben in Auschwitz and the high-ranking officials' awareness of the mass genocide taking place in the camp. Hilberg cites a document that proves IG Farben's complicity. Hilberg finally remarks upon the general attitude Germans have towards their country's past. Hilberg says that the older generation, which is strikingly different from the younger generation, finds it necessary to eliminate the recent past from its memory. In this way of ignoring recent history, Hilberg believes that it is very unlikely that there is honest conversation between the young and old generations. FILM ID 3781 -- Coupes -- CR24M,25M,52M,53M,54M,plus -- Documents Inter Ancien Silent CUs Lanzmann during the interview with Hilberg. He smokes. 04:59 Lanzmann in different clothing, turning the pages of a book, smoking, and taking notes. 08:37 Lanzmann, without the sport coat, rolling up his shirt sleeves, cleaning his eyeglasses, taking notes, and listening to Hilberg. 10:49 CR52 CUs of German documents, including various sections of the Fahrplananordung. 12:37 Handwritten intertitle,“Holocauste”. Terms in the Fahrplananordung are underlined or circled in red. 16:57 “Holocaust Document No. 1” intertitle. 17:11 “Document No. 2” Again, the Fahrplananordung in closeup with red markings. End title, “Holocauste”. --- FILM ID 3477 - 36,37, SON SEUL LONGER AMBIANCE CAMPUS, 040 (audio only) CR36,37 matches to FIlm ID 3778 01:59 SON SEUL - ambiance on UVM campus. 03:27 SON SEUL - CR 040 Hilberg reads from the diary of Adam Czerniakow, the Judenrat of the Warsaw Ghetto, about activities of the Nazi propaganda filmmakers who traveled to Warsaw in May 1942. 12:45 Lanzmann interrupts with instructions for Hilberg and Hilberg goes on. FILM ID 3478 - SON SEUL 041,042,043 (audio only) SON SEUL 041 - Hilberg reads from the diary of Adam Czerniakow, the Judenrat of the Warsaw Ghetto, from his entry on June 14, 1942. 01:40 SON SEUL 042 - Hilberg reads excerpts from a daily newspaper circulated in the Warsaw Ghetto. The newspaper lists the prices of goods for sale each day. 03:07 SON SEUL 043 - Hilberg reads another excerpt from the daily newspaper circulated in the Warsaw Ghetto. 03:39 CR43 matches to Film ID 3777 FILM ID 3480 - SON SEUL 045 (audio only) CR45 matches to Film ID 3779 06:22 SON SEUL 045 - Hilberg talks about the character of Kasztner.

    Inge Deutschkron

    Inge Deutschkron

    Film

    Inge Deutschkron, a German Jew who appears only briefly in Lanzmann's completed film, witnessed the increasing persecution and violence in Berlin, including the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws and Kristallnacht. Her father escaped to England but she and her mother remained behind and went into hiding in 1943. Lanzmann interviews her in a coffee house in Berlin in which she remembers seeing a "Jews Not Wanted" sign during the Nazi years. FILM ID 3420 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:08 to 01:33:06 CR 1 Inge Deutschkron sits in a café speaking with Lanzmann. She expresses feeling strange, since in the past Jews had been prohibited from the coffeehouse. Gradually, establishments put up signs barring Jewish patronage, and there was a danger of entering and being recognized. The signs that barred Jewish customers were sometimes posted by proprietors voluntarily but mostly under duress. 01:04:32 Deutschkron says that although the process was gradual, it was no less shocking for German Jews, who had believed they were Germans. It was, however, a step in rebuilding the country after the chaos of Weimar. Friends of her father that believed the Nazi party was necessary to reassert order in Germany and that antisemitism would eventually quell. Since Jewish establishments had not yet been extinguished, Jewish public life merely migrated towards them in the hope that the vitriol would pass. Jews rearranged their lives under the pretense that life would return to normal. 01:07:57 She describes her father, a committed Socialist and former deputy school headmaster in Germany, who was forced out of his position. Branded as an enemy of the state, he had to survive on a meager pension and slim prospects for future employment. Jewish parents sent their children to Jewish schools. Her father eventually found work at a Zionist school. Inge went to a regular German high school. 01:11:25 CR2 Inge describes the transition from primary to secondary school. Before high school, she was not sure what the implications of being Jewish were. She saw herself as more Socialist than Jewish, and would often assist her parents in political endeavors, such as folding leaflets. But Inge had trouble with her Jewish religion class in high school, because she had no formal instruction in the Jewish tradition. She talks about a friend who was a member of the Nazi Girls Association. She would say "Heil Hitler" upon parting to which Inge would respond "Auf Weidersehen". 01:14:53 Inge moved to a new school with many Jews. The school was named after the original Jewish headmaster, but in 1935, the school began discriminating against Jewish children. So, she was sent to an exclusively Jewish school. The family moved with non-Jewish friends to a completely new district. At that time, it was not yet taboo for Jews and non-Jews to have public friendships. Her family was denounced and the Gestapo raided their home. They found nothing. She describes an inn which would display Nazi materials, among them, an image of the Berlin police president (a Jew) depicted in a compromising position with an Aryan woman. 01:22:28 CR3 Deutschkron says the laws enacted in September 1935 (finally) disrupted the lives of normal Jewish people. Romantic relationships and friendships were forbidden, which, Inge says, was the source of many jokes to lighten spirits. She claims that the 1933 laws did drive some to leave, due to being unable to practice their professions. But many believed that the discrimination would eventually pass. Lanzmann asks Inge to define the difference between the Jewish experience in large cities like Berlin and smaller towns. The plight of Jews in small towns was "dreadful," since it was much more difficult to hide from public attention where everyone knew you. Her father did not think to emigrate because he believed the climate would pass, and even refused a teaching job in Australia. Inge says things only got worse after the enactment of the Nuremberg laws. Business at Jewish shops decreased. FILM ID 3421 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:07 to 02:33:23 CR 4 In the café, Inge relays jokes inspired by the discriminatory laws. People with Jewish names encountered problems with the authorities. Some with Jewish ancestors were allowed to change their names to avoid the stigma that came with them. 02:04:34 Inge describes career-change institutions that would allow Jews that wished to emigrate to become better candidates for employment abroad. There were courses for shoe-making, chocolate-making, agricultural work, and so on. Her father, a very impractical man, opted to train with a local Jewish shoe-maker in Berlin. 02:07:14 Her uncle trained as a chocolatier. Her family wanted to move to Palestine and become farmers despite having little knowledge of what such an endeavor would entail. Inge's uncle did move there, but returned to Berlin shortly after, complaining about the climate, people, and working environment. Lanzmann describes full-page newspaper ads for such emigration programs, mostly advertised by non-Jews. She describes the emerging profession of "Specialist for Immigration". 02:11:23 CR5 People did not offer fair prices for Deutschkrons' possessions and the family had little negotiation power. She describes the trauma of selling one's worldly goods and the general prosperity of many Germans. It was difficult to publicly express anti-Hitler sentiment and the divide between Jews and non-Jews grew. 02:14:48 Inge describes the "Year of the Marking" (1938) when laws were passed compelling German Jews to carry id cards with fingerprints, the letter "J", and a photo with their left ear in full view, since the Nazis maintained that such a feature could be used to spot someone of Jewish heritage. She talks about riding on the train looking at the people around her to decipher differences in the shape of ears. New parents had to select from a list of approved names. 02:21:50 Lanzmann says that Switzerland insisted on the branding of passports. 02:22:31 CR6 Inge says that Switzerland was not sympathetic to Austrian Jews wishing to escape the Nazis. Some were detained at the border and sent to concentration camps. Rich German Jews were required to disclose the extent of their wealth to the German government (the Deutschkrons had relatively little money and property). Park benches were marked for Jews-only. Inge says attracting such attention would have been unbearable for her. 02:25:50 The events that led to Kristallnacht were extremely convenient for the Nazis, who had been waiting for an opportunity to strike at the Jews. She describes Grynszpan's shooting of a German diplomat in Paris, and the resulting expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany. Inge experienced this when she found Polish classmates absent from school. A few hours after von Rath's death, the Deutschkrons received a distressed phonecall from a family friend claiming that the Nazis had taken her husband into custody. Several more calls came detailing the arrest of wealthy and intellectual Jews. 02:29:55 Inge relates the fear that their telephone lines had been tapped. They awoke the next morning to news that synagogues were burning and Jewish businesses had been plundered. Her mother wished to see for herself, so the family went into the street. They not only saw chaos but the willful ignorance of the non-Jewish population. Her family passed a barber shop, and the proprietor yelled "Get out of Germany, you Jews!" Inge's mother responded, "You dirty swine!" despite her father's fear. Inge's father opted to go to work that morning, and the Gestapo called their home an hour after he left. FILM ID 3422 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 - 03:00:07 to 03:22:28 CR 7 Still in the coffeehouse, Deutschkron speaks of the Gestapo arriving at her home. Her mother pretended to be ignorant of Kristallnacht events and answered their questions calmly. She said her husband went to work. They entered the home and one sat in her father's chair while the other guarded the door. They said he should report to the police station immediately. She raced to the phone, dialed her husband and, concerned that the line had been bugged, uttered the single word "disappear". Inge's mother then started cleaning up the apartment and decided to go shopping in order to maintain a semblance of normality. 03:03:26 They noticed looting in the streets. Her mother hoped that her father sought help from friends. Eventually, however, he arrived at the apartment, and maintained that, since the German police had specifically asked for him, there was no real way for him to effectively disappear. She sought advice from Social Democratic friends who urged him to go into hiding. 03:05:43 Inge talks about their two weeks in hiding. They returned home once it was clear that "the action" was over. Their neighbor informed them that the Gestapo indeed called in their absence, but since milk bottles were collecting at the doorstep, there was nobody home. 03:07:36 Men who had been unable to hide ended up in concentration camps, some of whom found a way to emigrate to England. The events finally convinced her father to emigrate. Inge recalls lines of people waiting outside of the American consulate in Berlin. Now, if one wished to leave, they were forced to leave their wealth behind. 03:11:15 CR8 Inge describes barriers to emigration. The Nazi government required a colossal exit fee. Equally problematic was finding a country willing to take you in. She says her father would not go to Syria because of the rumor of the "Aleppo Boil". The last resort was Shanghai, but the thought of moving to such a strange land was unappealing. 03:15:16 The Deutschkrons turned to relatives in England, who agreed to take in a single family member. Since Inge's father was in the most immediate danger, he left on April 19, 1939. The family vacated their flat in Berlin. Inge and her mother expected to follow on to Britain. 03:19:47 Inge and her mother moved into a furnished room. They considered becoming housemaids in Britain. Inge's mother received a letter from a professor in Glasgow who was willing to hire her as a cook and Inge as a maid. They began the long, paperwork process. FILM ID 3423 -- Camera Rolls #7A -- Coupes 2 Trains Grunewald -- 08:00:08 to 08:07:15 CR 7A Mute coupes of an outdoor train station. Inge stands at a ticket booth. Glimpses of travelers' feet. The camera stabilizes and focuses on Inge sitting on a platform bench. The station sign reads "Berlin-Grunewald"; the time is 1:40 pm. As the train arrives, Inge motions to the filmmakers. She stands, sits back down, laughing. Aboard the train, Inge sits by the window watching the scenery. The train pulls into another station and leaves. Inge looks out the window. The scenery is green and lush, with roads here and there. The train passes through a moderately sized village, slows and stops. Inge stands, shoulders her bag, and moves towards the exit. Inge stands on the platform. The camera focuses on a departing train. The station sign reads "Lehrter Bahnhof". FILM ID 3424 -- Camera Rolls #8A,8B,3A,6A -- Coupes 1 Salon de The -- 07:00:07 to 07:11:28 Mute shots of Lanzmann on camera speaking to Inge Deutschkron. He nods as she responds. They sit in a Berlin café. It is raining; cars and pedestrians with umbrellas pass by. The camera pulls back, presenting a view of both in conversation. Inge gestures with her hands as she speaks, and Lanzmann nods in acknowledgement. Lanzmann lights a cigarette. He takes notes as she speaks. CUs. 07:05:39 Cut to exterior of the street signs at the intersection of Kurfurstendamm and Joachimstaler Strasse. The camera pans across the street showing rain-slicked pavement, passers-by with umbrellas, and slow-moving cars, before eventually settling on the café in which Deutschkron and Lanzmann converse. The camera zooms in from outside. 07:10:48 Cut to the interior of the coffee shop. CU of Inge Deutschkron speaking with Lanzmann. CU of Deutschkron's hand, toying with a teapot on the table. FILM ID 3425 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 04:00:07 to 04:33:27 CR9 A train pulls into the station and stops. People disembark and passengers board. The camera pans to Inge Deutschkron and Lanzmann sitting at a platform bench, speaking with one another. German Jews were not permitted to own radios or electronics, but Inge and her mother kept theirs. There was a curfew in place. She addresses the first few days of the war. Inge's ration cards were marked with the letter "J". 04:03:16 Lanzmann notes that there was kind of an iron curtain separating Germany from the world. Inge concurs, and continues to list the aspects of life that were cut off: hairdressers, laundry services, so on. She tried to visit these places, believing that if one were to adhere to all of the discriminatory laws, they would lose their sanity. 04:04:31 She says around 200,000 Jews remained in Berlin. She speaks of emigration. German Jews were no longer permitted to live in homes owned by non-Jews. Inge recalls at one point residing with nine other German Jews in a five bedroom flat, with one bathroom and one kitchen. Jews were forced to perform hard labor in "labor exchanges". She speaks of a supervisor who once worked in a Jewish textile factory and had not prospered, so sought revenge against the Jews he was now overseeing. Communication by telephone was not possible for Jews, but she says, it was unnecessary since they were living close to each other. This was not quite ghettoization. Public transport was only available to Jews commuting to work. Jews had not been "marked" yet but there was a danger one might be recognized, so very few broke the rules. But, Inge claims she would often defy the laws: attend cinema, walk in parks, and break curfew. Rumors easily spread, and fear was rife. 04:11:18 CR10 A train pulls into the station as Inge, off camera, describes the desolate mood during the outbreak of war. The Jews were hopeful that the conflict would mean the end of Hitler, but they were also suddenly aware that the Nazis could do anything they wanted. Community leaders were gone and morale was low. 04:14:18 Although Inge was not religious, she describes her father's gradual return to Judaism. She felt cut off from the world. Her mother couldn't reach her father and letters were undeliverable. Lanzmann asks if she had any inclination that she would spend the entirety of the war in Berlin (she says no). The Jewish community had believed the war would be over quickly, that Hitler would be defeated within a matter of months. Inge and her mother still had non-Jewish German friends, but contact was minimal. The Jews were forced to work only the jobs that Germans did not want. With victories, people began to rally around the German war effort. Inge speaks of bomb attacks in Berlin, and describes bomber planes overhead. Jews were forced to sit in a separate area of the air raid shelters. 04:22:14 CR11 Inge talks about being forced to sit in air raid shelters for a long time because of rumors that Jews would give signals to the enemy. Inge worked in textiles, making silk for parachutes. Her mother worked the night shift at a radio battery factory. Their labor exchange was run by a staunch antisemite. Along with the Gypsies, their positions were assigned, they were paid less than the Germans, and had to pay an additional 15% tax on their wages. Inge would stand for ten hours, changing spindles on machinery. German employees would not speak to her. Her commute was 1.5 hours, and as a Jew, she had to stand during the journey. There were also no chairs in the Jewish break room. She was given a Star of David to wear on her work overalls that she would remove outside of work. 04:29:36 In order to avoid work, Inge wore high heels to the factory and was eventually afflicted with an injured knee. When she went to the factory doctor, he asked inappropriate sexual questions and performed a pelvic exam. Jews were viewed as little more than slaves. The star was mandatory in September 1941. The Jewish Community was tasked with distribution and there was a fee. Jews were instructed that the patch be sewn firmly above the heart. They were ordered to wear them indoors and out; their homes were similarly labeled. FILM ID 3426 -- Camera Rolls #13,15,17 -- 05:00:08 to 05:28:26 CR13 Inge heard about the deportations of Jews beginning in October 1939, but in little detail, since there was no real contact between disparate Jewish communities. Inge's family lived in a block of flats marked with the Jewish star, but non-Jews also lived there. When a friend visited, he rang the bell but would stand at the door of non-Jewish neighbors. 05:04:53 Inge was palpably concerned for her own safety due to the new Star law. She had before flirted with a young man on her daily train commute, but when he first saw her with the star, he looked at her with sympathetic eyes and she never saw him again. When she boarded the train later that day, a man repeatedly offered his seat to her. She had to show him the star before he stopped. The wearing of the star brought "sad sympathy" to interactions between Jews and non-Jews. 05:07:59 Inge talks of being stared at or sneered at. She says that she would sometimes remove her star in order to visit shops, since they were so hungry. 05:09:30 CR15 In September 1941, an elderly woman in their building received a letter from the Jewish community regarding her possessions. One member of the Jewish Community visited the workshop where Inge worked in October 1941. She learned that recipients of the letters were to be deported. That evening (without warning from Inge who thought this was a rumor) the woman was suddenly deported and taken with others to a synagogue. 05:17:57 Some who tried to bring food to the synagogue were turned away by Jewish officials and told that those inside were being looked after. They were deported one day later. That same day, the Gestapo confiscated the woman's belongings from her room. 05:19:08 CR17 Now they knew that a letter meant deportation. Lanzmann interjects, pointing out that the Nazis were trying to rid Berlin of Jews entirely. Inge says that there was no secrecy surrounding the deportations. Removals were performed by functionaries from the Jewish Community. Jews whose jobs were not essential to the war effort and the unemployed were selected for removal. Lanzmann asks if there were any fees, and Inge says no, the Jews had nothing. 05:25:31 Inge claims that the Jews did not truly believe deportation was a death sentence. They were in denial and believed people were sent to work camps. She thought they would eventually be called for deportation, and she received a letter. But, her mother refused to let her leave alone. Inge was not so much horrified by deportation, but by separation from her mother. They viewed the situation as a race - if they managed to avoid deportation for long enough, English victory would save them. FILM ID 3427 -- Camera Rolls #16A,12,12A,16CF,17A,14A,20A,18A,19A -- Coupes 2 Trains de Grunewald --09:00:07 to 09:07:34 Mute shots of the Berlin-Grunewald train station platform. A train leaves the station. 09:00:36 With sound, a train pulls into the station and passengers disembark. Quick view of Inge on a bench, followed by no picture. 09:02:04 Mute shots of the empty platform. A train passes in the background. A train pulls into the station. 09:02:51 With sound, a couple holds hands as they prepare to board. The train stops. Passengers disembark, and others board, luggage in hand. The train pulls out of the station. 09:04:00 No sound as a train departs. 09:04:17 Another view of a train departing. 09:04:26 A man sits on the station bench. Brief glimpse of sound engineer with equipment at right. With sound, a train enters the station, stops, and the man waves and boards the train. The camera pans, to show briefly Inge Deutschkron sitting on a station bench. 09:05:40 With sound, another train leaving the station. Sound engineer. Mute shots of a train with Friedrichstrasse" sign pulling in. The platform announcer steps into frame. 09:06:27 "Berlin-Grunewald" station sign. 09:06:40 Mute shots of people on the train platform. A train pulls into the station. CUs of train windows as it passes. 09:07:31 "BOB 28" slate with Lanzmann (his face is cut out of the frame) behind. FILM ID 3428 -- Camera Rolls #18-21 CR18 Inge describes feeling stunned and alone. She speaks about the complicity of the Jewish Community in the deportations and the irony that those who should have been supporting them were facilitating their fate. Lanzmann asks whether she believes they participated in order to save themselves. She describes her disdain, but concedes that, since she was never put in the situation of the Jewish Community, she should not judge them. Older Jews began to marry rather than face deportation alone. The suicide rate rose. She refused to believe the rumor propagated by the BBC in 1942 that claimed gassing and mass murder was taking place. Many of the factories in Berlin objected to deportation because they lost workers, and Jewish employees worked hardest since their lives depended on it. People disappeared, but they kept believing they would survive. Inge's mother tried to learn more from a friend, a non-Jewish female owner of a laundromat, but the woman would not divulge anything. Many German Jews evaded the Nazis. CR19 Inge says the Vienna Gestapo was called upon to swiftly solve the Jewish problem in Berlin, and started driving to Jewish residences with vans, taking people without warning. Meanwhile, the Deutschkrons discussed how to avoid deportation.Their non-Jewish friends advised evading the authorities. They opted to go "U-Boat" or underground. One morning, the Gestapo called their house to clear the room of a recent deportee. The officer questioned her mother about why she was home and threatened deportation. She protested that she had a daughter and that they should go together. On January 15, 1943, they took their belongings and left the house. They returned to collect a forgotten watch. Inge describes feeling her anxieties diminish living in secret, and no longer wearing the Star. She felt free from fear. The deportations continued. Inge received a call from a friend at the Jewish Community warning her to stay inside on February 27. CR20 Inge received a call from her friend at the Jewish Community warning her to stay inside on February 27. Police raided the streets of Berlin clearing the city of Jews. Lanzmann interjects that there were "officially" no Jews alive in Berlin after this. Inge agrees, aside from Jews in mixed marriages who were considered non-Jewish. She watched people being torn from their homes. They could not believe what was happening. Berlin's Jews were herded together into dance halls and camps before being deported. Inge claims she had never felt so alone. She felt guilty to be one of the last Jews living underground in Berlin. [sound cut off] FILM ID 3429 -- Camera Rolls #23A,7B,24 -- Coupes 3 Lions de Goebbels -- 11:00:07 to 11:08:27 CR 23A Mute shots of a bronze lion statue (Lions de Goebbels), camera pans to the base, where a large "W" is engraved. The lion is a copy of a statue called the Flensburg Lion. A young boy leans against the base. Coca-Cola stand behind the statue. Two men and one woman stand around a table conversing. Cut back to the lion statue in profile, back lit by the sky. Pan to reveal landscape beyond the park. Quick shot of a bus. The lion, shown from various angles. 11:02:06 CR 24 Lanzmann talks a man who seems to run a stall in a market near the Wannsee House, where the infamous conference took place in January 1942. The man tells Lanzmann that the lion was moved to the location by Hitler in 1938. The man indicates the Wannsee House (not visible) and says that it has been proposed as a memorial to the Jews but other people want to keep the playground for the children that is currently on the site. Lanzmann asks whether everyone knows this history but the man says he thinks not. Lanzmann says he tried to enter the house but was not allowed. Lanzmann asks him what he knows about the conference and corrects him when he describes it as persecution rather than destruction of the Jews. They talk about the area, how it has changed, how expensive the area has become. He asks Lanzmann what he is doing with the film equipment and offers to rent him a boat if he needs it. The Wannsee House was not established as a memorial until 1992. FILM ID 3430 -- Camera Rolls #25,30A,30B -- Coupes 2 Chutes, Trains -- 10:00:08 to 10:02:01 CR 25 Train station platform (with sound). A train slows to a halt. People disembark and passengers board. 10:01:09 CR30A Inge Deutschkron sitting on a station bench (quick). 10:01:26 CR30B Mute shots of a slow moving train and station surroundings - several tracks form in the BG with parked cars in the FG. FILM ID 3431 -- Camera Roll #30A -- Coupes 4 Grunewald -- 12:00:08 to 12:08:13 Mute scenes of an empty station platform at Berlin-Grunewald. Inge Deutschkron sits at a nearby bench looking through her purse. She stops, and waits. The camera zooms in on her, then out. Inge in conversation (silent) with Lanzmann in the same location. A train passes behind them. The camera zooms in on Lanzmann. He repeatedly nods as Deutschkron speaks. The camera zooms out showing both speakers. Slowly, zoom in on Lanzmann again.

    Corfu

    Corfu

    Film

    Lanzmann filmed the few surviving Jews of Corfou, Greece. Many are craftsmen who experienced deportation to Auschwitz and Birkenau. Some interviews take place in the synagogue and the cemetery. Additional reels of location filming show local merchants and shops. FILM ID 3406 -- Camera Rolls #4-11A -- Armando Aaron -- 01:00:08 to 01:24:10 Surviving Jews of Corfu walk down a street in Corfu, Greece with Lanzmann. The four survivors walk towards the camera. 01:03:05 Armando Aaron explains (in French) that on June 9, 1944, the Jews of Corfu (numbering 1,650) were ordered by the Germans to gather near an old Venetian fort in the city. 01:03:55 Two more takes of the survivors walking along a city street towards the camera. 01:05:04 [CLIP 1 BEGINS] CR9 The survivors approach the camera again and Aaron explains the deportation order (filmed near the site). Christians gathered to watch out of curiosity. Jews who didn't report were shot. Aaron refers to the Rikanati brothers - Jews who helped the Germans - and the level of anti-Semitism in Greece at the time. Jewish property was stolen by the Germans and given to the Greek state. He and the other survivors describe the terrible boat transport to Haidari camp (near Athens) and then by rail to Auschwitz, which took nine days. Only 65 Jews remain in Corfu today. He says it was very difficult to return to Corfu after the war. [sound out at 01:17:03, camera focuses on survivors' tattooed arm] 01:18:41 CR11 Aaron suggests that Corfu's Jews became "entertainment". Lanzmann presses him to explain why he is so afraid, even today. Aaron doesn't really respond and instead briefly explains the processing at the fort during the deportation again. 01:22:21 Silent CUs of survivors. [picture in and out at times; sound is intact throughout] FILM ID 3407 -- Camera Rolls #15-21 -- Moshe Mordu -- 02:00:08 to 02:21:59 Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers [picture in and out]. 02:02:33 CR17 Moshe Mordu hammers a metal pot. CU of the camp tattoo on his arm. 02:03:18 CR18 Another take of Mordu in his workshop. He reads the number on his arm (in Italian). He relates his experience at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, and Dachau. He is the only survivor of his family. He speaks with tears in his eyes. He chants in Hebrew. 02:11:19 Picture out. 02:11:44 Silent CUs of Mordu's tattoo and face. 02:14:00 No image through the end of the roll. There is some conversation, but it is not coherent. FILM ID 3408 -- Camera Rolls #30-34 -- La synagogue, part 1 -- 03:00:08 to 03:08:10 Religious services in the Corfu synagogue, filmed from various angles with many cuts. CUs of rabbi and Holocaust survivors praying, gathered at entrance. [picture in an out at times; sound is intact throughout] FILM ID 3409 -- Camera Rolls #30-34A -- La synagogue, part 2 -- 04:00:07 to 04:05:31 Religious services in the Corfu synagogue, filmed from various angles with many cuts. Holocaust survivors praying, CUs of their tattoos. Rabbi leads the services. [picture in an out at times; sound is intact throughout] FILM ID 3410 -- Camera Rolls #35,36B -- La synagogue -- 05:00:09 to 05:22:46 [CLIP 2 BEGINS] In the synagogue, Lanzmann speaks with survivors, including the rabbi, Mr. Mordu, Mr. Levi, Mr. Osmo, and others. He asks the rabbi (through an interpreter in Italian and Hebrew) if the survivors believe in God, if their faith was shaken because of Auschwitz. The rabbi says that Israel was God's miracle. 05:07:42 Levi joins the conversation. 05:08:20 CR36 Levi says that he did not believe in God after seeing the gassing with his own eyes from where he worked at the camp. The men say that the Jews of Corfu were faithful before the Holocaust and that Jewish life was strong (at times talking over one another). 05:14:57 CR36 A survivor talks (in Italian) about his experience in Buna when the Germans abandoned hospital patients eight days before the Russians liberated them in January 1945. 05:21:47 Picture cuts out. 05:22:12 CUs, tattooed numbers. FILM ID 3411 -- Camera Rolls #46-50 -- Marco Osmo -- 06:00:09 to 06:04:57 Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers. Camera follows a man (Marco Osmo?) pushing a wheelbarrow delivering supplies. Multiple takes of the delivery man walking in the alley with the wheelbarrow, passing spectators and shoppers. 06:03:40 The camera focuses on Samuel Levi, another craftsman and survivor. There is no interview. FILM ID 3412 -- Camera Rolls #67-73A -- Samuel Levi -- 07:00:08 to 07:30:13 Establishing shots of an alley in Corfu filled with workshops of silversmiths and woodcarvers. CUs of a woman setting up her metal shop in the alley. 07:02:56 [CLIP 3 BEGINS] CR69 Samuel Levi explains to Lanzmann (in Italian) the photographs of Dachau and his family members which are posted in his workshop. Levy talks about the loss of his family and working in Dachau's crematorium. He explains the process of poisoning victims in the gas chambers, of becoming sick with the odor of hair that burned, and how the Germans used ashes in their cannons. 07:07:14 CR70 Levi describes the experiences of family members and the crematorium at Birkenau. 07:12:30 CR72 He says that the Greeks were forced by the Germans to steal Jewish property. 07:17:10 Lanzmann asks about a letter convincing the Greeks to take Jewish property posted in his workshop, and Levi says that he put it there for the Greeks to remember what happened. A younger man reads the letter. 07:19:47 Silent CUs of the photographs and letter posted in Levi's workshop. 07:27:28 Silent CUs of Lanzmann in Levi's workshop. FILM ID 3413 -- Camera Rolls #76-79B -- Armando Aaron -- 08:00:08 to 08:27:50 In a different location, Aaron explains (in French) that many Jews arrived at the roundup because they were afraid the villagers would denounce them. Lanzmann is in the frame; Aaron is the only survivor interviewed on this tape. All Jews gathered - the women, the sick from the hospital, and the insane too - which frightened Aaron who feared for the life of the whole Jewish community. [CLIP 4 BEGINS] Some civilian Greeks and Greek police assisted with the roundup. They were shut in an Old Venetian fort without food and water overnight for days. The Jews were then shipped by sea to Haidari, a camp near Athens, by way of several small ports. Many were terrified by the Gestapo guards. 08:11:20 CR77 Aaron reads the German declaration to the people of Corfu that justified the deportation, transferred commerce to the people of Corfu, and spread terror. 08:13:58 CR78 Aaron explains the dreadful boat trip and his escape to the mountains. He did not want to be killed before his parents. He reads the declaration again. 08:20:16 CR79 Aaron describes the proclamation and explains the extent of the plundering of Jewish property by the Greeks and the Germans that he observed upon return to Corfu in March 1945. Only 30 or 35 Jewish survivors live in Corfu today. 08:24:11 Sound ends, picture continues with silent shots of Lanzmann and Aaron talking. Greek flag in the BG of one shot. CUs of Lanzmann smoking. FILM ID 4693 -- Corfu 37-43 Le Cimetiere Auschwitz Moshe Mordu scrapes something off a tombstone while another man stands beside it. A woman walks over and points him to another grave. A group of survivors gather around one tomb. Some kiss their hand and then touch the stone. They converse with each other while waiting for filming to start. Crew sets up. Clapperboard: “Aleph Holocauste. Lanzmann-Glasberg. Cor 38” then "Bob 166”. Clapperboard clicks again for Take 39. MS, the walkway into the Auschwitz cemetery in Corfu, pan to the group of survivors. 00:04:15 CR 40 Armando Aaron, President of the Jewish community in Corfu, talks with Claude Lanzmann. He explains that the cemetery they are currently standing in opened in 1968. The cemetery that used to be there was destroyed after the German occupation. There is now a tomb within the cemetery to commemorate all those who were killed in Birkenau or other places in Poland and Germany; noone is actually buried there. Aaron goes on to explain how the Greek people that occupied their city after they were deported destroyed the cemetery in order to take the marble, pan over the survivors. 00:08:20 CU, the number tattooed on a woman's arm. The sound goes out for a few seconds. 00:08:48 CR 41 A woman starts telling her story. She was a nurse for a dentist and describes the order that came for all Jews to present themselves for deportation to Germany. She traveled by boat and was on a train for 22 days. She continues to talk about her arrival to the camp, being sent to the snowy mountain to work, and trying to survive the cold. Other survivors of the camp interject and correct certain statements the woman makes. Dialogue is heard but the picture runs out [orange]. 00:14:25 Cor 42 The woman sitting in the middle, Esther, describes her experience. She talks about the train car, being separated from her brother, and losing the rest of her family. 00:20:55 A man enters the frame and mimics the Nazis, making everyone laugh. The woman sitting on the right speaks about how the Greeks attacked Jewish people in the ghetto. The woman sitting on the left continues to describe witnessing and questioning the smoke/fire from the gas chamber, where her mother was murdered. She describes her ignorance and an encounter with another prisoner who encourages her to survive. 00:25:12 The woman sitting on the right begins to speak, but the camera cuts. COR 43 She speaks on how the camp was like a “blockade” and they were treated like animals. She remembers it like a bad dream. She speaks about people praying in line at Birkenau and questioning God. She maintained her faith in the camp. 00:28:46 Lanzmann asks the woman in the middle, Esther, if she believes in God and she responds no. She explains why, but the woman on the right begins to debate with her a bit. They continue to converse back and forth. The woman on the right begins to talk about her younger sister and eventually helping her out of a hospital. She explains their transfer to Saltzweger, in Germany, and a sympathetic Obersturmführer. 00:36:50 Picture cuts out, audio continues with the Corfu survivor sharing that her sister lives in Tel Aviv. FILM ID 4694 -- Corfu 1-3. 79A Vue du Bateau (30:50) Bob 154 Clapperboard: “Aleph Holocauste. Lanzmann-Glasberg” COR 3 Silent shots from a boat that slowly moves toward the city of Corfu. 00:02:15 Same shot from farther away. 00:07:32 Boat moves closer to land, people walk and ride their bikes along the cliffs. 00:10:55 CUs, buildings. 00:14:16 Bob153 COR 2 Closer to the cliffs again. 00:15:57 An old fort, probably the Old Venetian Fortress. 00:29:28 Bob 159 COR 1 More shots of the fort and the town of Corfu from an overlook. More shots from the boat, picture missing from 00:26:10 to 00:28:51. Waves and sunset on Corfu. FILM ID 4695 -- Corfu 12, 22-29 Le Fiacre (14:00) Clapperboard: “Aleph Holocauste. Lanzmann-Glasberg" COR 12 Streets of Corfu. A group of women pass by. One waves to the camera. 00:01:13 COR 22 Horse and carriage. COR 23 COR 24 The carriage takes the road along the water. COR 25 CU, decoration on the back of the carriage. COR 26 A similar shot. COR 27 CUs, the horse. Bob 162 COR 29 00:13:48 End. FILM ID 4696 -- Corfu Commersants (Matelassiers, Ferblantiers) (24:40) Clapperboard: “Aleph Holocauste. Lanzmann-Glasberg” COR 13 One of the survivors seen earlier sits in the doorway of a shop. Armando Aaron stands to the side with a woman. Bob 158 COR 14 People pass by the store front. 00:05:28 Locals and a crew-member walk through an alleyway. Run-down building. 00:06:50 COR 50 CUs, merchants. A woman shows the tattooed number on her arm. 00:08:24 COR 52 A woman sews and a man weighs the product. COR 53 The woman sews, CUs of the number on her arm. 00:11:49 COR 55 Men (possibly a rabbi) look down the street. A man performs a traditional dance, a crew member joins him, and he grabs a woman from the small crowd to dance. COR 57 COR 58 Men set up merchandise. COR 62 A survivor stands outside her store (refer to Film ID 4693 to listen to her story). She speaks but there is no audio. 00:18:45 COR 64 COR 65 A different woman is seen in the doorway of a shop. Lanzmann directs her to stand in a specific spot and she hangs a bird in a cage on a hook. Several shots of the street and the shop. A note inside the film canister includes names of individuals who may be pictured in this camera roll: Felice MATAVIA, Gerson and Esteher MATAVIA, Sabtai MATZA, Eliezer LEVI, Perla SUSSI, Anna MORDOU. FILM ID 4697 -- Corfu La Ville L'Ancien Cimetiere (18:17) Lanzmann walks down the lane. A couple passes on a scooter. More shots of the streets and buildings in Corfu. Sounds goes in and out. Rooftops and alleyways. 00:10:35 Construction behind some apartment buildings. More scenes of streets and buildings in and around Corfu. 00:17:52 People sit at the entrance of the old fort.

    Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto Conference (New York)

    Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto Conference (New York)

    Film

    Lanzmann films at a New York conference for survivors of the Riga ghetto in 1978. Includes an interview with several former Jewish policemen from Riga, Latvia who describe the division of the ghetto into sections for Latvian Jews and German Jews, dealing with the Nazi discovery of a secret weapons cache, and responsibilities as Jewish police. Lanzmann raises the question of collaboration and acknowledges the survivors’ openness as they talk. He also interviews veteran frontline soldier, Friedrich Baer. The reels also generally show the conference proceedings inside the New York hotel. FILM ID 3400 -- Camera Roll #65 -- 01:00:00 to 01:11:33 NY65 Lanzmann interviews three survivors of the Riga ghetto. The first man on right describes how the ghetto was partitioned into two sections: one for the German Jews, one for the Latvian Jews. The three interviewees resided in the German section. Each side had a police force comprised of its own residents. The man recounts that one day he was called to a meeting by the German authorities. This was already well into their time of captivity in the ghetto: they had arrived in January of 1941, and the meeting took place at some point during 1942. He, along with other young, strong German Jewish men, had been designated to police the Latvian section of the ghetto. As it turns out, several Latvian Jews had escaped; their police were blamed and executed for the incident. The three men go on to relate their experiences as policemen. They had little real authority, carried no weapons, and, it seems, mainly served to assist the SS in "keeping order" and cleaning up after executions, which they were forced to attend. The audio continues for a few seconds after the video ends. FILM ID 3401 -- Camera Roll #66 -- 01:11:34 to 01:22:49 NY66 The same three men continue to describe their experiences as Jewish policemen in the ghetto. One recounts how he was sent to investigate a hidden weapons cache which had been smuggled, piece by piece, into the Latvian side of the ghetto. The weapons were brought out by German soldiers and the Latvian side of the ghetto was closed. Lanzmann comments on the survivors' willingness to talk: survivors who had served as policemen in other ghettos, such as Łódź, refused to talk about their involvement. These men from Riga, however, claim to have had a different experience: whereas police from other ghettos may or may not have been seen as collaborators by fellow Jews, these police from Riga had no choice in the matter. They were told to serve and could not refuse. Moreover, they actively used their unique position to help their comrades, whether that had been by alerting them to searches conducted by the SS or security, turning a blind eye to allow Latvian Jews into the German section, smuggling people into jail to pay visits to family members, etc. Thus, others may have been less inclined to see them as collaborators deserving of condemnation; neither do these men view themselves as such. FILM ID 4646 -- NY 68.69 Survivant Riga Baer Interview Fred Baer was a German Jew who fought at the front during WWI. After the war he worked in a department store in Gelsenkirchen until 1939 when he was sent to Oranienburg concentration camp. After a month at the camp he was released, and subsequently immigrated to Panama. FILM ID 4705 -- NY 58,59,67 Banquet Riga Camera Roll New York 58. Inside the Riga Ghetto survivors conference in a hotel in New York City. CU, flag “Society of Survivors of the Riga Ghetto. Inc.” Survivors talk with one another, some eat. They occasionally glance at the camera. A man exclaims, “Alright it’s a deal.” A woman looks off camera and asks, “What? You want to hear us talk or what’s the big idea?” New York 59. People converse with each other at the conference in New York. 00:02:21 New York 67. Woman at the mic announces winning raffle ticket numbers. People receive prizes. 00:06:15 Woman at the mic announces “207” and a man approaches, showing her that number tattooed on his arm as a joke and they laugh. 00:06:41 End. FILM ID 4706 -- NY 60-63 Banquet survivants Riga Camera Roll New York 60. Inside the Riga Ghetto survivors conference in a hotel in New York City. Man speaking. CU, poster in Hebrew. CU, poster “Cash for Economic Strength. Pay for your Israel Bonds Today.” Another CU, poster with Star of David then poster that reads, “Israel Bonds. Build Economic Strength for Peace.” Attendees grab food from the table. Camera Roll New York 61. Mute CU of flag pole with Star of David on top. CU of flag pole with an eagle on top. People converse with each other at a conference in New York. Camera Roll New York 62. CU of men’s kippahs on their heads. People continue to converse with one another. Camera Roll New York 63. (00:04:16) Woman yells, “louder” to another woman at the mic. Woman at mic, “What? Doesn’t work? How come it doesn’t work.” People from the audience speak. Woman repeats, “I don’t know how it works.” Man raises the mic stand. Audience laughs. Camera Roll New York 64. Woman at mic says its a pleasure to have seen so many people come out this year. She welcomes Lanzmann and the film crew. Audience claps. She asks the audience to cooperate with Lanzmann if he asks any questions. She also welcomes and introduces a Riga survivor from Israel, CU of the man. Elliot Weiss [?] works on Nazi war criminals living in the United States. She asks the audience to send statute of limitation cards back to Germany and talks about the prizes that were donated. She announces a wedding and some individuals whose names are hard to decipher. Lily Strauss is congratulated for celebrating her 75th birthday. A woman hands her flowers. CU of Lily Strauss. (00:08:45) Mr. Weiss [?] explains more about the card, until the end of the roll.

    Franz Grassler

    Franz Grassler

    Film

    Franz Grassler was assistant to Heinz Auerswald, the Nazi commissioner of the Warsaw ghetto. Lanzmann tries to get him to talk about the ghetto, but he claims that he remembers very little.. Lanzmann asks about Adam Czerniakow and his suicide, typhus, the black market, the ghetto wall, filming in the ghetto, and more. Grassler conveniently remembers things when he thinks they might be documented in Czerniakow's diaries. FILM ID 3402 -- Camera Rolls #1,2,3 -- 00:01:24 to 00:27:52 CR 1 00:01:24 Franz Grassler sits on a red couch, presumably in his home. In response to a question from Lanzmann Grassler explains that Palais Bruehl was the headquarters of the Warsaw governor [Ludwig] Fischer. Grassler objects to Lanzmann's use of the term "Adjutant" to describe his own relationship to Heinz Auerswald (governor of the Warsaw ghetto); instead he calls himself an "Assessor." He explains how he came to be posted in Warsaw. He cannot remember exactly when he started to work for Auerswald but it was not when he first arrived. He began to work with Auerswald in approximately summer 1941. Lanzmann asks Grassler to describe Auerswald physically and psychologically. He says that Auerswald was a lawyer from Berlin who had a Polish or a Russian wife. Grassler and Auerswald worked together but did not share the same personal interests. Lanzmann asks Grassler how and when Auerswald died; Grassler says he doesn't know but then remembers that there were preliminary proceedings (Ermittlungsverfahren) against Auerswald and against Grassler, and Auerswald died in 1970, in the course of these proceedings. Lanzmann asks Grassler about his relationship with Adam Czerniakow. Grassler says that Czerniakow came often to the Palais Bruehl and preferred to deal with Grassler rather than Auerswald CR 2 00:12:42 Lanzmann asks Grassler if he really can't remember much from the war. Grassler says he remembers touring in the mountains before the war much better and that it is a natural psychological phenomenon to remember good times better than bad times. Lanzmann says he will help him to remember and hands him a book: "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow." Grassler looks at the photograph of Czerniakow in the book. He says again that Czerniakow preferred to deal with him instead of with Auerswald, perhaps because Auerswald was brusque whereas Grassler, as someone from Bavaria, was nicer to deal with. Lanzmann asks Grassler whether Czerniakow was afraid of him and Grassler says he was not. Czerniakow spoke German with him. Audio only between 00:16:20 and 00:16:50: Lanzmann says that the diary has just been published and that he is mentioned in an entry from July 7th, 1941. There is a cut in the film and then Lanzmann asks Grassler about [Abraham] Ganzweich, who was in charge of investigating the black market in the ghetto. The video cuts out again. Audio only while Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he visited the ghetto and Grassler says that he did so only a few times. The video returns after a cut in the middle of Grassler saying that the greatest danger in the ghetto was typhus. Two more cuts in the film before the end of the reel. CR 3 00:18:59 Grassler says that neither he nor the people with whom he worked were aware of the extermination of the Jews. He says their job was to maintain the ghetto, not destroy it. Lanzmann points out that Auerswald was always asking that the size of the ghetto be reduced, despite the fact that so many people died every day. Audio only as Lanzmann asks Grassler if he knows how many died per day in the ghetto in 1941. After the cut Grassler says the ghetto was already in existence for some time by the time he himself came to Warsaw. Grassler challenges Lanzmann's assertion that the ghetto first came into existence in fall 1941. Lanzmann asks a "philosophical question:" in Grassler's opinion, what is the meaning of a ghetto? Grassler says that ghettos existed in history and that the Poles also persecuted the Jews. Audio only as he repeats that it was his duty to maintain the ghetto. Video returns (after the cut) at 00:24:13. Grassler says that he and his colleagues always tried to raise the ration limit in the ghetto. He agrees with Lanzmann that Czerniakow was always asking for greater rations but they had no power [to grant them]. Lanzmann assures Grassler that he is not interested in his actions. Grassler says that neither he nor Auerswald could change German policy. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that Auerswald did not like the Jews but says that didn't mean he wanted to destroy them. Lanzmann points out that the Jews were destroyed every day in the ghetto through various methods, including shooting. Grassler blames this on the SS. Lanzmann asks Grassler what he thought when he visited the ghetto. Grassler says he asked to be transferred from Warsaw because the conditions in the ghetto were so awful and disturbing to him. The last few seconds contain audio and no video. FILM ID 3403 -- Camera Rolls #4, 5, 6 -- 02:00:04 to 02:32:17 CR 4 02:00:04 Lanzmann asks Grassler about the Aktion during which the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto were forced to surrender their fur coats in the bitterly cold winter of 1941-1942. Grassler says that the Germans too were required to give up their furs for the Wehrmacht. Lanzmann asks Grassler about Czerniakow's proposal [to Auerswald] that, in exchange for the furs, the Germans should release prisoners from the jail. He points out a reference to Grassler in Czerniakow's diary, from January 30th, 1942, regarding the surrender of the fur; Lanzmann's interpreter translates the diary entry for Grassler. Lanzmann says there were many who died because it was so cold and their coats had been confiscated. Therefore his question is whether this was not destruction, rather than maintaining [of the Jews and the ghetto]. Grassler says again that destruction was not the duty of his office, but they had to follow orders. Lanzmann asks Grassler if he was an antisemite. Grassler says he wasn't, and in fact he often read books by Jewish authors. Lanzmann asks him if he remembers instances of cannibalism in the ghetto. After a pause Grassler says that perhaps Czerniakow mentioned something of the kind. Lanzmann tells him that Czerniakow wrote of telling Grassler of a case where a woman ate a piece of her dead child. Lanzmann asks Grassler if he remembers Auerswald's trip to Berlin on January 19, 1942. He points out that Auerswald was in Berlin during the Wannsee conference, although he was not at the conference itself. CR 5 02:11:28 Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he remembers Czerniakow's suicide and Grassler says yes, because that was the reason he finally asked to be transferred from Warsaw. The transfer was refused by Fischer so Grassler went on vacation to Munich and refused to return. Lanzmann asks him whether he remembers the great deportations from the ghetto in September 1942. Audio but no image as Lanzmann asks Grassler to speculate on the reason for Czerniakow's suicide. Grassler asks Lanzmann if Czerniakow announced his intention to commit suicide in the diary. Lanzmann says no, he killed himself after Globocnik ordered that the children be deported to Treblinka. Grassler claims that he and his colleagues thought that Treblinka was a labor camp where prisoners received better treatment than they did in the ghetto. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that Auerswald was aware that the ghetto was coming to an end. Lanzmann asserts that Grassler knew what Treblinka was, which Grassler disputes. Lanzmann says the Poles all knew: how could Grassler be the only person in his circle who didn't know? Grassler says that he thinks the Jews knew more than some of the Germans did. He found out later that there were Jews who had been sentenced to death and were sent to Treblinka for execution, but denies that he knew Treblinka was an extermination camp. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Grassler says there should have been no executions in the ghetto after the early period, but they may have occurred. Lanzmann says there were many executions in the prison, carried out by Polish police. They discuss whether the Jewish police were armed; Grassler says of course they could not have been armed with firearms. Grassler says that he himself was not armed when he went into the ghetto: he had nothing to fear. CR 6 02:20:42 Lanzmann asks whether Grassler knew Hans Galuba (?), who worked for Auerswald. He then asks if he remembers that it was his idea to require the Jews to wear armbands as they did in Berlin. Lanzmann indicates that Czerniakow wrote about this in his diary. Grassler says perhaps he carried out the order but it was certainly not his idea. He says that in Berlin the Jews wore yellow stars. He does not remember where on their clothing the Jews wore markings in the Warsaw ghetto. There is some confusion about whether Lanzmann is referring to armbands or stars worn on the breasts of clothing. In the May 28th, 1942 entry in "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow," Czerniakow writes that Grassler asked him what he thought about a proposal that the Jews of Warsaw wear Star of David badges like those in Germany. [Start here w/pick for website -- 02:32:00.] In answer to a question from Lanzmann Grassler says that he kept a diary, more of a calendar, but it was burned in Munich. Lanzmann asks Grassler whether he remembers the cameramen from the Propaganda Kompanie filming in the ghetto. Lanzmann can't believe that he doesn't remember anything and Grassler says he has repressed these memories because it was an awful time. When Lanzmann says it was a bad time in retrospect but not at the time, Grassler contradicts him and says again that he volunteered for the front rather than remain in Warsaw. Lanzmann asks him whether he thinks that the wall was a security measure against the spread of typhus, and points out that in Nazi ideology the Jews and typhus and the plague were one and the same. Grassler says that perhaps Streicher or Rosenberg thought this way, but the normal German and even the normal party member did not believe this. He says that most people in the Nazi party were not antisemitic. Lanzmann asks who then killed the Jews, and Grassler says it was the SS and a minority of ideologically committed party members. He himself joined the party because of the Versailles Treaty and Germany's defeat in World War I. Audio but no video for the last few seconds of the reel. FILM ID 3404 -- Camera Rolls #7,8,9 -- 03:00:04 to 03:29:41 CR 7 03:00:04 Lanzmann says that there was anxiety in the ghetto after the extermination of the Jews of Lublin and Lvov in March 1942. Grassler says again that the Jews knew more than the Germans, which Lanzmann again finds astounding. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that the Jews were deceived by the Germans but claims that he and his colleagues were also deceived. Lanzmann says that the Jews were made to pay for the ghetto wall and the pedestrian bridge. Grassler objects when Lanzmann says that Auerswald thought the Jews had too much room in the ghetto. He says that Auerswald must have received orders to continually reduce the living space available to the Jews. Lanzmann asks him why he stayed a year in Warsaw if he didn't like Auerswald and he didn't like the work he was doing. Grassler says that he was a soldier following orders. Lanzmann asks whether he thought the Jews were human or subhuman and what he thought about their treatment at the hands of the Germans. He asks whether Grassler's relationship with Czerniakow was as friendly as between the two of them (Lanzmann and Grassler). Grassler says he tried to help Czerniakow but did not accomplish much. Lanzmann's interpreter reads a passage from the diary in which Czerniakow records Auerswald complaining that Jews stood too near to him when they talked to him. Grassler says again that he himself always greeted Czerniakow with a handshake. CR 8 03:11:20 Grassler and Lanzmann discuss the black market in the ghetto. Grassler says he does not remember specifically but he is sure that there was one, as there is everywhere need exists. Lanzmann points out that children were active in the black market. They discuss cabaret and other cultural life in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks Grassler which people died first in the ghetto, and if he remembers when the intelligentsia began to die. Lanzmann mentions a certain "night action" (led by [Karl-Georg] Brandt and [Gerhard] Mende) during which 50 people were seized from a cabaret and executed. Grassler says that the civil administration was powerless to prevent such killing by the SS. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Grassler says that the religious Jews would have appeared strange to him. Lanzmann asks Grassler how he could explain the behavior of SS men who shaved the beards of religious Jews, to which Grassler replies that perhaps it was a hygienic measure against lice. Lanzmann asks whether he was afraid of lice when Czerniakow was in his office, or when he "went for a walk" in the ghetto, and Grassler reiterates that he was very seldom in the ghetto. Lanzmann asks him if he saw corpses in the street. Lanzmann says that perhaps the final solution was the only solution to such conditions and Grassler replies that in his opinion neither the conditions nor the final solution should have happened. Lanzmann says his theory is that given the deplorable conditions it was easier to kill the Jews than to save them. Grassler takes issue with Lanzmann using the term "the Germans" to refer to the perpetrators of the final solution, saying it was not the Germans but rather the small circle that held power. Grassler says he feels a collective guilt but he does not feel personally guilty. Lanzmann asks him if he feels guiltier than a German citizen who was not in Warsaw. CR 9 03:22:45 Grassler repeats that the Jews were contained in the ghetto to prevent the spread of typhus. Lanzmann asks him whether he actually believed there was a connection between the Eastern Jews (but not the German) and typhus and he says he did believe it. Lanzmann asks him what measures does one take against typhus, then goes on to say that one kills the lice, just as one killed the Jews. Audio but no video from 03:27:11 to 03:27:58 as they discuss the so-called self-administration of the ghetto. Grassler agrees with Lanzmann that the air in the ghetto was very bad. Lanzmann says that he doesn't understand how Grassler loved to read poems by Heine but at the same time "deloused" the Jews. Grassler says one thing he chose to do and the other he was forced to do. FILM ID 3405 -- Camera Rolls #10,19 -- 04:00:04 to 04:08:55 Mute CUs of Grassler and then Lanzmann speaking and listening. Grassler looks at a book, presumably "The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow" at 04:03:24. CUs of Lanzmann begin at 04:05:13.

    Short interviews near Grabow (Maisons)

    Short interviews near Grabow (Maisons)

    Film

    Interviews with Polish inhabitants of Grabow, a village located 19 km from the Chelmno extermination camp. Prior to the war, Jews had accounted for over half the population of Grabow. In 1942, all of the approximately 4,000 Jews of Grabow were rounded up, locked in the town's Catholic church, and then transported to Chelmno. In these outtakes, Lanzmann reads a letter written by the rabbi of Grabow in January 1942, detailing the horrors that awaited his people. He conducts short interviews with town residents about their memories of that time, and the outtakes also contain mute shots of town buildings including the church and the synagogue, now a furniture warehouse, as well as of post-war daily life in Grabow. FILM ID 3386 -- CR# CH 18,19,21,90 Maisons Grabow part 1 -- 01:00:08 to 01:17:55 (Typo on video transfer slate. This tape includes Roll 90 not Roll 20.) Lanzmann interviews an elderly woman on her doorstep. The home was previously owned by Jews who had a butcher shop. The sound and picture cut out and then return later in the interview several times. As Lanzmann asks questions about her witnessing of the events of 1942, the woman changes her story and insists she does not know what happened to the Jews. Lanzmann then interviews a man who says he was friends with many Jews as a child, and 'speaks Jewish,' though he can produce no Yiddish. The man recollects on his memories of wartime-- he provided food to German soldiers, and therefore had a special permit which allowed him freer mobility. He remembers seeing Jews being loaded into trucks for transport to Chelmno, and tells of one Jew who collected others' gold and gave it to the Germans. The man tells of having gone to Chelmno three days after its closure, and seeing human bones, gold teeth, and ashes scattered everywhere. Two women standing on the stoop with the gentleman being interviewed remember the perceived beauty of Jewish women prior to the war, as well as the remarkable power they felt Jews had in society. Some cuts taken from this roll CH 19, CH 21, and CH 90 and used in the final film. FILM ID 3387 -- CR# CH 18,19,21,90 Maisons Grabow part 2 -- 02:00:08 to 02:01:04 (Typo on video transfer slate. This tape includes Roll 90 not Roll 20.) Various shots of interviewees in Grabow, standing in front of their homes, matching scenes in CH 19 and CH 90. The only sound is that of the cameraman. TAPE 3388 -- CR# CH 1-6 Grabow Moulin (White 24) part 1 -- 03:00:08 to 03:12:09 03:00:03 Audio cuts in and out; shots of men with horse-drawn carts on the road next to Grabow's mill. 03:01:27 Lanzmann asks a man questions while he loads his cart in front of the mill. He asks who owns the mill, and the man replies that it is state-owned, but that before the war it was owned by a man who is now dead. Lanzmann asks whether the man knows what happened at Chelmno, and he replies that of course he does, but that he was in Germany during the war. Lanzmann asks others of the group of men who have gathered around what they know about Chelmno. One says that they knew what was happening, but that they were not allowed inside. When he would pass the camp, he could see how they transported Jews there. 03:03:36 Interview with one of the mill workers from a different angle-- horse carts are visible in the background, and the camera is zoomed in on the gentleman's face. He explains that before the war, Jews made up a majority of the population of Grabow. They were transported to Chelmno in horse-drawn carts. There was a ghetto in Grabow, even though it is a small town. Every small town had two or three streets that were closed off, where Jews lived and were monitored. He explains that Jews were rounded up and shut inside the church, and were then transported to Chelmno. There, the Jews were 'burnt naked.' As the gentleman talks, the camera pans to the street, where a group of people has gathered to watch the interview taking place. Lanzmann asks the man whether he remembers the town's rabbi, and whether the mill belonged to a Jew. He replies that no, it belonged to a German before and during the war. Jews were generally tanners, tailors, merchants, etc. Lanzmann asks whether there were religious Jews living in Grabow before the war, 'with beards.' The man replies that there were. 03:09:43-03:12:05 The picture cuts in and out, audio continues. The man tries to answer Lanzmann's question of whether he is upset that the Jews are gone. He says that 'it is impossible to say.' He says that the Jews were not trustworthy. He is upset, however, that the Jews were gassed. FILM ID 3389 -- CR# CH 1-6 Grabow Moulin (White 24) part 2 -- 04:00:08 to 04:02:50 The atmosphere of Grabow. 03:59:54 Shots of horse-drawn carts lined up along the road, waiting to reach Grabow's mill. 04:01:14 Shaky picture of one of the mill's brick walls. Lanzmann asks a man (whom he later interviews more formally) whether he is from Grabow and whether he was there during the war. The man unloads sacks from his cart while he replies to Lanzmann, and Lanzmann tells him that he wants to speak with him more, once he deposits his sacks inside the mill. Brief shots of Lanzmann and his translator, Barbara. FILM ID 3390 -- Grabow Village No. 30 (White 25) -- 05:00:08 to 05:20:20 Sound in and out on entire reel. A crowd of onlookers watches as Lanzmann and his crew interview several residents in quick succession. Children laugh as one rowdy (drunk) man goofs off for the camera, and later interrupts an interview, scaring Lanzmann's interviewee away from the camera. Lanzmann asks them each to recollect on wartime in Grabow, and one man genuinely still does not know how the Jews were killed in Chelmno, just 19 km away. FILM ID 3391 -- Grabow Le Village (White 26) -- 06:00:08 to 06:30:21 Various scenes of daily life in Grabow during different seasons. Audio and picture both cut in and out periodically. No interviews. 05:59:47 Road sign denoting Grabow, with a cow on the road next to it. People walking up and down a sidewalk on a busy residential street. Rows of houses in Grabow. A horse-drawn cart rolls down the road toward the camera. The postman makes deliveries on a motorbike. A woman stands in the doorway of her home, while traffic passes in the street in front of her. Three men sit outside of a store. An elderly woman stares out at the camera from an upstairs windows. Various building exteriors in Grabow. The town square with a statue of the Virgin Mary. Construction workers stand in a second-floor window of a building project. Horse-drawn carts lined up in the road on a winter's day. Street scenes, taken from a moving car. Facade of the town church. Rows of houses on tree-lined streets in spring. FILM ID 3392 -- Grabow Synagogue (White 27) -- 07:00:08 to 07:18:14 06:59:43 Lanzmann stands in front of Grabow's synagogue, and reads a letter written on January 19, 1942 by its rabbi, HaRav Yaacov Sylman, to friends in Łódź. The letter warns his friends of the horrors transpiring at Chelmno, and urges them to believe what he has written. He writes, "I am so weary that my pen can write no more. Creator of the universe, come to our aid." Lanzmann adds that the Jews of Grabow were transported to Chelmno and killed just a few weeks later. 07:01:30 CU of Lanzmann's face. Lanzmann reads the same letter twice more. 07:04:52 No sound, various shots of the synagogue exterior, the sign above the door reads 'meble' [furniture], now a furniture factory. 07:12:14 No sound, the church exterior, and the view from the church of the synagogue down the street. 07:15:25 More exterior shots of the synagogue, including some with sound (background street noise). FILM ID 3393 -- Grabow Le Marche (White 28) -- 08:00:08 to 08:12:52 No sound, scenes of daily life in Grabow, including an open-air market, picture cuts out briefly. Grabow citizens frequent the market, engage in conversation, drive carts around the town center. Piles of wicker furniture, baskets, brooms for sale. CUs of individual market-goers. 08:09:02 Sound reel cuts in, a man and child drive their cart (loaded with a pig) down the road away from the camera. A horse and cart roll past a modest home. FILM ID 3394 -- Grabow La Paille (White 29) -- 09:00:08 to 09:05:17 A man drives a cart laden with hay out of his field and down a road. Sound reel cuts out, a woman walks through the field with a child. The hay wagon moves slowly away from the camera through fields. FILM ID 3395 -- Repiquage Denteile eglise Grabow -- 10:00:38 to 10:08:57 No picture, sound only -- indiscernible snippets of interviews as well as background noise. FILM ID 4721 -- White 78 Grabow. Kolo. Zawadki-Kruchow (17:06) Location filming in and around Grabow.

    Eduard Kryshak

    Eduard Kryshak

    Film

    A hidden camera interview with Eduard Kryshak, who accompanied two or three train transports of Jews to Treblinka and was a witness at postwar trials in Düsseldorf and Bielefeld. He claims he did not know that people were killed at Treblinka until after the war. Kryshak's wife is frequently visible doing chores in the kitchen where the interview takes place, or watching Lanzmann and Kryshak as they talk. FILM ID 3357 -- Camera Rolls #1-7 Maison/Clinique/Chemin de Fer -- 01:00:00 to 01:27:50 No picture for first few minutes. Lanzmann is talking with a German woman about Kryshak, he is in hospital after having had an eye operation. Sound is presumably caught by a hidden microphone; Lanzmann speaks with his colleagues in French. Picture begins at 01:03:00, with Lanzmann walking up to a house and ringing the doorbell. The camera is hidden in a car parked across the street. Lanzmann speaks to Frau Kryshak through the intercom (audio does not pick up her voice), introducing himself as Dr. Sorel from Paris. Lanzmann finds out which hospital her husband is in. Picture cuts out at 01:05:03, resumes at 01:05:58 with Lanzmann back at the door, thanking Frau Kryshak by name. Lanzmann looks at the home for a few seconds, then walks away, speaking French with his female interpreter. The camera then pans into the van, showing the recording equipment. Lanzmann then repeats the previous scene, this time with the camera showing someone manning the equipment in the van. The camera hidden in a car across the street slowly zooms in on the entrance to the hospital where Kryshak is staying, repeated two times. The next scene shows Lanzmann entering the hospital. Picture cuts out at 01:12:54. Lanzmann and his interpreter speak with the hospital staff, trying to locate Kryshak. The attendant tells them he is no longer there. Other hospital staff join in the conversation and reveal that he had come in for a check-up but has already left. Picture resumes at 01:17:02, showing the outside of the hospital, with Lanzmann and associates walking towards the van. Picture cuts out again at 01:17:38 for a few seconds. Lanzmann returns to the Kryshak home and rings the doorbell several times, with no answer. He yells Herr Kryshak's name, a woman answers at an upper window and says she doesn't know where Frau Kryshak is. Lanzmann speaks in French with his associate and they walk away from the house. Camera shows interior of van again. 01:24:45 [no sound through end of tape] Camera shows an older man leaving the Kryshak home. Lanzmann and his associate approach him and speak with him. End of roll shows Lanzmann and several associates leaving the home, carrying camera equipment. FILM ID 3358 -- Camera Rolls #1-7 SS.026 Chemin de Fer -- 02:00:00 to 02:24:00 No picture until 02:01:07. First scenes of camera hidden in a briefcase as Lanzmann follows Kryshak up the stairs into his apartment. They sit in the kitchen, with the camera positioned to capture Kryshak. Before they start, Lanzmann excuses his associate to go outside, she takes the camera with her. Lanzmann continues to talk with Kryshak, asking about his operation and age. Sound cuts out at 02:06:36, but hidden camera footage continues until the end of the roll at 02:07:15. Sound returns, but no picture until 02:08:15. Kryshak discusses the mechanics of the train (brakes, the engine). Kryshak first came to Poland in 1942, to Vilna. He explains that he was a "blauer Eisenbahner", meaning he was with the Deutschen Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft (DRG) and that he had nothing to do with the military trains [Wehrmachts-Feldeisenbahner]. Kryshak then goes through the various places in Poland he was in, before being assigned by his boss to Bialystok. He explains that he was not an official train conductor, having only taken the test, but he had the skills to do it, amongst other services he had to perform. Kryshak talks about the various types of trains he traveled with: normal passenger trains, freight trains, special transports and Jewish convoys. He accompanied two or three trains loaded with Jews. Picture and sound cut out 02:14:17, picture returns at 02:14:29, sound at 02:14:43. Kryshak says he didn't know where the trains came from or went to, he just accompanied them, although he speculates they went to Auschwitz or Treblinka. He also mentions that they were always transported in freight cars. Kryshak mentions that the security detail for the transports were comprised mostly of Ukrainians and Poles. Kryshak then describes how he gave water to some of the Jewish prisoners through the hatch on the train car. He's unsure how many people were in the train car, but estimates that there were about 50-60 cars. He accompanied that train to Malkinia, which was only 7-10 kilometers from Treblinka. He says that one could see the chimneys of Treblinka, but that at that time he wasn't aware what was going on. Lanzmann probes him on this point, asking him at what point he did know. Kryshak claims it was only after the war that he learned what went on at Treblinka. Lanzmann then says he must have had some idea that what was happening wasn't right. Kryshak agrees with this, but says that 'Treblinka' didn't mean anything to him at the time. Sound and picture cut out briefly at 02:19:14. Lanzmann asks him what he thought the fire coming out of the chimneys was from. Kryshak responds that they thought it was oil burning; they had no idea until after the war what it really was. Despite Lanzmann suggesting he was not responsible, Kryshak remains adamant he did not know what was going on at Treblinka. Lanzmann asks if he ever had interactions with any of the Polish train conductors who moved the convoys into the camp. He answers that he did not. Lanzmann mentions Henryk Gawkowski, but Kryshak says he did not know him. Lanzmann suggests that Kryshak's name is Polish. Kryshak explains that his family lived on the border, in East Prussia, and that his grandparents spoke only Polish. FILM ID 3359 -- Camera Rolls #8,9 -- 03:00:00 to 03:17:45 Audio is problematic for the first few seconds. Kryshak says that he was a soldier, but that he never needed to fire a shot. He explains how things turned chaotic at the end of the war. He surrendered to the British (although it was actually Polish and Belgian forces?), and complains about the unnecessary force used by the Belgians. Lanzmann changes the subject to when Kryshak lived in Bialistok (must be referring to prior to the war), asking him about the Jews that lived there and in Prosken. Kryshak says there were many Jews, they bought goods from them, even his doctor was Jewish. Many of the higher-level merchants were Jewish. Lanzmann asks what happened to them, Kryshak is absolutely certain that the Jews of Prosken got out before the war, but those in Bialistok were put in a ghetto and were forced to work at the nearby iron works factory. Kryshak also tells of their Jewish housekeeper, a young girl who had mentioned several times that she was afraid she would disappear into a camp. Lanzmann asks if they knew the name Treblinka. Kryshak says they never spoke about that, but he didn't think so. He doesn't know what happened to his housekeeper; one day she just never came back. Lanzmann asks if he ever accompanied a train to Auschwitz and Kryshak says he only went to Malkinia. End of roll at 03:06:46. Picture returns a couple of seconds later, sound at 03:07:12. Lanzmann wants to know what Kryshak thought about accompanying a loaded train and returning with an empty one. He says he can't really say, which is also his answer when Lanzmann asks about the terrible smell described by previous Polish interviewees. Kryshak brings up his post-war trial, during which he said he knew there was burning at Treblinka (likely a partial continuation of the conversation not caught on film in between camera rolls 8 and 9, as up to this point Kryshak has denied having any knowledge of what went on in Treblinka.). Kryshak then explains the steps involved in preparing and loading the train cars and transporting them to Malkinia. He received special orders when transporting the Jews. Lanzmann asks if he thought the Jews were afraid and Kryshak responds that they definitely had fear because they knew where they were going. Lanzmann wants to know how the Jews could be aware of Treblinka and not himself. [Picture cuts out from 03:11:28 to 03:12:39] Kryshak says one could see the fear in the Jews. He believed they were simply gathering the Jews to have them all in one central location and he did not know about the annihilation. He was only a simple public servant, one could not protest anyway. Lanzmann asks if he received any extra compensation for the Jewish transports, Kryshak says it did not matter what they were transporting, the rate was the same. Lanzmann mentions that the Polish train operators received alcohol and then asks Kryshak if he knows someone named Bleichschmidt but he doesn't. Lanzmann wants to know how long the journey took. Kryshak explains how far it was and how fast the various trains could go. Sound cuts out at 03:16:51. FILM ID 3360 -- Camera Rolls #100,9-10 -- 04:00:00 to 04:15:54 Lanzmann and his associates travel in the van used for secret filming, with views of the countryside. Lanzmann reads from several pages of handwritten notes, in French. Picture cuts out briefly at 04:06:17. No sound through the end of the roll. Camera captures houses and shops as Lanzmann and crew drive through the streets [somewhere near Kirchweyhe, Germany]. 04:13:46 Secret filming of Kryshak resumes. Beginning with a close-up of Frau Kryshak, the camera pans to Herr Kryshak and then back again [no audio]. FILM ID 3361 -- Camera Rolls #11-14 -- 05:00:00 to 05:25:34 Kryshak is speaking, no audio until 05:01:09. He explains how he came to work so much on the trains, despite his being on standby. He was one of the younger men, so when others were sick or on vacation or for 'special' trains [Sonderzüge], he was called to accompany them. Lanzmann states several times that he must have accompanied many 'special' trains and Kryshak eventually responds in the affirmative. Lanzmann asks if it was difficult work and Kryshak says that it was. Lanzmann then asks if he had any fear or apprehensions about it and Kryshak responds that it was his job. It didn't matter if the train he was accompanying was carrying munitions, goods, Jews, soldiers or the wounded. He had nothing to do with what the trains carried, his job was to accompany them. Lanzmann asks him to read a train schedule. Kryshak examines the schedule as Lanzmann explains it is an order for unit 33, a 'special' train [Referat 33 - Sonderzüge]. Kryshak says that perhaps his supervisor would have received such a document, but he would not have. Lanzmann wants to know what the 'DA' means, Kryshak isn't sure. Lanzmann suggest 'Deutsche Aussiedler' [literally German emigrants - referred to Jews from German-speaking areas: Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia], which Kryshak says could be correct. Lanzmann then shows him another paper, this one referencing PJ 111, meaning polnische Juden [Polish Jews]. Kryshak thinks it means a passenger train, but Lanzmann is adamant it is referencing Polish Jews. This train traveled from Bialistok to Auschwitz, with a stop in Malkinia. Kryshak explains that there were always changes in the trains' personnel, he doesn't know whether a train would have gone on to Auschwitz. Lanzmann asks again if he ever went to Treblinka, he maintains that he didn't. Lanzmann states that the organization of the Jewish transports was very good and Kryshak agrees. Lanzmann asks about the guards who accompanied the trains. Kryshak says they were mostly German, sometimes Ukrainian or SS. Kryshak believes the foreign guards treated the Jews worse than the German ones. He doesn't remember the Ukrainians wearing uniforms, only armbands. Lanzmann asks if the trains he accompanied were mostly full of Polish Jews. Kryshak doesn't know, he only knows they boarded in Vilna. Cuts out briefly, New roll begins 05:11:15, sound begins at 05:11:30. Kryshak says the Jews loaded onto the trains were dirty, that there were men, women, and children (of the latter he's not as sure). He explains how little time they were given to prepare a train for departure. He did not observe the loading process as that was outside his duties. Force was sometimes used to get the Jews onto the trains. Lanzmann asks about several other places, including Warsaw and Lublin but Kryshak says he never went there. Lanzmann asks if the train cars were clean and Kryshak says they were, but he doesn't know who cleaned them. Lanzmann begins speaking in French to his interpreter. Sound cuts out from 05:17:56 to 05:21:03. New roll begins 05:20:00. Lanzmann is discussing where the train cars were cleaned. Kryshak doesn't know. Lanzmann says that he thought the train cars were quite dirty; Kryshak agrees they would have been after having 50-60 people crammed into them without toilets. Picture and sound cut out briefly at 05:22:17, sound cuts out at 05:24:09. Roll ends at 05:25:34.

    Martha Michelsohn - Chelmno

    Martha Michelsohn - Chelmno

    Film

    Martha Michelson was the wife of a Nazi schoolteacher in Chelmno. She talks about the Sonderkommando, Jews killed in a church, the terrible smell that pervaded the town when bodies were burned, the Poles' attitude toward the Jews, and the operation of gas vans. She says that she told people in Germany about the extermination in 1942 or 1943 but they accused her of spreading atrocity propaganda. FILM ID 3352 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:00 to 01:32:09 Lanzmann asks Michelson for help understanding what things were like in Chelmno. She says that conditions were very primitive: no running water, no electricity. There were ten or eleven German families with lots of children. The local Poles worked as farmhands and some worked in the local forest. Lanzmann asks what daily life was like for her family. She talks about the small school and says there was only one store. Her husband was an ethnic German from Riga. They discuss some of the buildings in the town, the castle (Schloss) and the church, a German municipal building, and the school where the Michelsohns lived. They came to Chelmno in December 1939 but were forced to move from their house when the camp was established. Lanzmann asks if she remembers the arrival of Commandant [Hans] Bothmann and his Sonderkommando (Bothmann oversaw the extermination of hundreds of thousands of Jews between spring 1942 and March 1943, when deportation of Jews to Chelmno was halted). She saw some of the transports of Jews arrive in trucks and later on a narrow gauge railway that had been built for the purpose. The Jews were brought to the church where they were told that they would be deloused. Lanzmann asks if she knew the Jews were being killed and she says she never saw it, but there was a terrible burning smell that hung over the village in the evenings. Transports arrived almost daily and Michelsohn says that some multiple of 40, 40,000 or 400,000, were killed at Chelmno. The condition of the Jews was terrible and sad and their cries were awful to hear. She never witnessed the murder of the Jews, but she assumed their bodies were burned because of the smell. She describes the trucks that were used to gas Jews. She says the gas vans came into use later, when there were too many Jews to kill and burn at Majdanek [? Later in the interview it seems that when she refers to Majdanek she is not talking about the camp but about another location called Majdanek]. Everyone knew the Jews were being exterminated and Michelsohn says that the Poles were glad about it. She felt there would be retaliation for the exterminations. Lanzmann says that in the second period the Jews were gathered in the church and Jewish clothing was distributed among the Poles in Łódź. Lanzmann asks what Bothmann was like and Michelsohn says that he was drunk most of the time because it was the only way he could handle the work. 01:20:17 CR 3 Lanzmann asks Michelsohn about certain Germans who worked at the camp (Laabs, Hafele, Burmeister). She recognizes the names of a couple of them. She does not recognize Lanzmann's description of Srebnik. He tells her that only two Jews survived Chelmno [Simon Srebnik and Michael Podchlebnik). Michelsohn says that her husband complained to Bothmann about the fact that the villagers had to witness the terrible treatment of the Jews. She says it was depressing because "they are people like we are." She says that the villagers could not do anything about what was happening to the Jews. She says she was able to carry on with life during such a terrible time because she had no choice: her husband had to do his duty for the government. Lanzmann mentions the smell again and Michelsohn says that the smell was only in the first period. Lanzmann says that he thinks that the Germans used gas vans to kill Jews from the beginning and Michelsohn says that it has been so long that she could be remembering things incorrectly. Her husband also complained because Bothmann held "orgies" with German girls from Wartheland. Lanzmann asks Michelsohn to describe the manor house (Schloss) where the Jews were told to undress and give up their valuables before being loaded into the gas vans. The manor house was hidden by a tall fence but the church was still used by the Poles on Sundays, and it was used to hold the clothing of the murdered Jews. At first the Jews believed they were going to be deloused, but when they suspected what would really happen ttheir screams became more frantic. Lanzmann says that all of the Poles with whom he has spoken remember an incident where a gas van exploded but Michelsohn says she doesn't remember anything like that. FILM ID 3353 -- Camera Rolls #4-6 -- 02:00:00 to 02:31:28 CR 4 Lanzmann asks Michelsohn if she remembers the Riga Inn (Gaststaette) in Warthbruecken, which she does. He says that Arthur Greiser, Gauleiter of Wartheland, treated the Chelmno staff to dinner at the Riga Inn. He questions why she said that people killed in Chelmno were buried in Majdanek (apparently a forest between Chelmno and Warthbruecken) and he says this forest is called Ruszov. She clarifies that she is not referring to the infamous Majdanek concentration camp. They discuss the return of Bothmann's Kommando to Chelmno in 1944. She tells him that the castle in Chelmno was destroyed in World War I, which surprises Lanzmann because it was used in the killing of the Jews. She says this is correct, but that it was ruins at the time. Michelsohn begins to talk about the Jews who were chosen for work (Arbeitsjuden). Picture cuts out from 02:07:54 to 02:08:02, from 02:08:21 to 02:08:37, and from 02:08:48 to 02:08:54. These cuts correspond to dialog and picture that was used in the final film. CR 5 02:08:59 Michelsohn speaks of trying to tell people in the Reich what terrible things were happening in Chelmno, but she was accused of spreading atrocity propaganda. No one believed her, including her relatives, because it was impossible to believe unless one had experienced it personally. She says that when she was in Łódź once the bus that she was on drove through the ghetto. They discuss the effect on the children living in the area: she believes that they didn't comprehend what was going on and if they asked questions, one could only say, it is an order from the government. The situation didn't make people depressed but instead they were indignant (Empoerung). She and her husband applied to be posted further west but the request was denied. CR 6 02:20:12 Michelsohn talks about the heavy emotional burden (seeliche Belastung) she and her husband carried because of their experience in Chelmno. She says that the Jews who came to Chelmno were not all rich, but came from all walks of life, rich, poor, young, old (despite Lanzmann mentioning Polish claims that all the Jews were rich). Lanzmann wants to know which parts of the killing process the residents of Chelmno were able to see. Michelsohn discusses her husband's position with the NSV (das Nationalsozialistische Volkswohlfahrt-the Nazi Welfare Services). The welfare service provided for the poor German families in the area by giving them Polish land. She tells how the Germans living in the area would get together to speak about the war and territory lost and gained. She and her husband had no hope for a German victory after Stalingrad. Picture cuts out a few seconds before end of roll. FILM ID 3354 -- Camera Rolls #7,9 -- 03:00:00 to 03:24:00 (there is no CR 8) CR 7 The camera focuses briefly on a photograph in the room, presumably Michelsohn's husband. In response to a question from Lanzmann, Frau Michelsohn discusses her thoughts about the East (i.e. Poland). She says she was not afraid of the East and that her impression was that it had so much more space and fewer people than in the West (Lanzmann uses the word "Raum"). However, she was soon disillusioned because Chelmno was so primitive and the winters were so cold. The worst time was when the killing actions against the Jews began (December 1941). She thought the Germans would succeed in Russia, that they would obtain this great expanse of land. Lanzmann asks again if she remembers the boy who sang on the river but she says she does not. She mentions that she knew several Poles and that the Polish people were neglected. Picture cuts out at the end of the reel. CR 9 No picture from 03:11:23 to 03:11:53. VCU of Michelsohn's face. Michelsohn again speaks of the primitive circumstances, no running water or bathrooms, little soap, etc. Cleanliness was a big issue. The hygiene among the Jews was of course very bad. She thinks about these events often, as one can't forget such terrible things. She and her husband spoke about it often. She describes a recurring dream where the Jews are forced into the gas vans and she hears their screaming. She describes the visible difference between German Jews and the 'Ostjuden'. The Jews from the East wore the clothing of orthodox Jews, while the German Jews "looked like any European." She says that even at the time she thought the killing was a crime against humanity. She's not sure how many Jews were killed in Chelmno, 40,000 or 400,000. Picture cuts out from 03:20:36 to 03:21:20, after which there is no sound.

    Franz Schalling - Chelmno, gas van

    Franz Schalling - Chelmno, gas van

    Film

    A hidden camera interview with a member of Ordnungspolizei in Chelmno. Franz Schalling describes the process of execution by gas vans at Chelmno. FILM ID 3355 -- Camera Rolls #1-3 -- 01:00:00 to 01:29:05 CR 1 The image is black and white and not very clear, and also somewhat tilted. Schalling sits at a table in front of a window and Lanzmann sits on a couch next to him, with his female interpreter/assistant next to him. Schalling tells of how he came to be in Chelmno. He was part of the Schutzpolizei stationed in Litzmannstadt (Łódź) and had no idea what Chelmno was when he got there. He asked the SS at the camp what Chelmno was and they told him that he would soon find out. Schalling says that Chelmno was a small farming village and that he arrived in the winter of 1941/1942. He was assigned to a small house that served as a guardroom near the castle; he and his fellow policemen patrolled the fenced area around the castle (Schlosskommando). He mentions that the younger policemen were placed in the forest patrols (Waldkommando). He himself was part of these patrols once or twice. Lanzmann asks him to describe what he saw, and Schalling says that he was able to see what went on, because he guarded the gate. He tells of the Jews arriving on trucks, freezing, hungry, and dirty. He doesn't know if they were afraid, but it was clear that they didn't trust anyone after the experience of the ghetto. He heard the SS speak to the Jews, telling them that they would be put to work but that they would need to bathe before coming into the camp. Schalling begins talking about five Polish criminals who came to the camp. Audio cuts out last few seconds. 01:09:55 CR2 Schalling continues talking about the five Polish criminals. These men were told that they would be given German citizenship after the war was over and for this reason they worked for the Germans forcing the Jews into the gas vans. Schalling describes the castle or manor house (Schloss) and how the Jews were processed. They had to undress and surrender their valuables to a Polish worker. They undressed in the top part of the castle, and then went downstairs to the basement where a ramp led to the gas vans. Lanzmann's intrepreter gets up and goes to sit on the other side of Lanzmann. The doorbell rings and another woman, who we learn later in the interview is Schalling's friend, Mrs. Brand, gets off the couch to go answer it. Lanzmann asks Schalling to draw a diagram of the basement, ramp and gas vans. Sound cuts out 01:14:46. Audio resumes but picture cuts out from 01:14:55 to 01:17:30 [transcript pages are also missing]. Schalling describes the gas vans. They only used exhaust from the engines to kill. A Pole would shout "Gas" and the driver would crawl under the van and hook up the exhaust pipe to the van. The drivers were SS. Lanzmann asks whether the trucks made a loud noise. They would drive the vans out into the woods. He's not sure how long it took for the Jews to die. Picture resumes at 01:17:26 with a slate that reads 40 B (CR 3?). The camera is now focused more tightly on Schalling. Lanzmann asks how long it took the people to die and Schalling says it could have been five, ten, or fifteen minutes. Lanzmann says that Schalling has said he still sees pictures of Chelmno before his eyes. Lanzmann, with the help of his interpreter, asks Schalling to describe these images. He begins to describe old people and children, arriving half-dead from the journey. They sometimes rode in open trucks in winter, without anything to eat. Lanzmann questions Schalling's story about being sworn to secrecy about what he saw (which appears in final film), because the Poles Lanzmann interviewed said they knew what was going on. Schalling says that Polish women cleaned their accommodations and they saw everything and they were afraid. Mrs. Brand offers the group coffee. No image or sound from 01:20:40. Slate reading Alephe Holocauste Bob 41. Video appears at 01:21:00 (CR 4?). Sound resumes at 01:21:10. Schalling says that he spoke about the extermination with an SS man who gave him a ride to Łódź. The SS man said that they had been ordered from above to kill the Jews. He describes this man, whose name he does not remember, as very humane, and goes on to discuss other men at the camp. Lanzmann asks him about the Jews in the forced labor details and Schalling says that he sometimes had to guard them as they sorted the valuables of those who had been killed. The Jews from the Sonderkommando slept in the basement and Schalling claims that he sometimes threw food down for them to eat because they received so little to eat. Schalling agrees with Lanzmann when he says that he has heard that the work of the Jews in the forest (Waldkommando) was awful. They were chained together so that they couldn't run away. Schalling mentions one man (Mordechai Podchlebnik) who escaped Chelmno and Lanzmann informs him that Podchlebnik is still alive. Schalling says that he got in trouble with his superior officer, Hoefing (? Alois Haefele?), because he chastised a colleague for beating Jews. Sound drops out at the end of the tape. FILM ID 3356 -- Camera Rolls #5-7 -- 02:00:00 to 02:18:22 CR5 Lanzmann asks Schalling why he has never spoken to his son about Chelmno. Schalling says that his son does not understand why he didn't fight against Nazism and that he would would have despised him if he knew about Chelmno. They also discuss why he never spoke to anyone, including his wife, about Chelmno. She would have called him a murderer, even though he isn't a murderer. He says that if Hoefing (?) had sent him before the police court, as he threatened to do, it would not have been as bad as being in Chelmno. He says that he can speak to Frau Brand about it, and she says that they have known each other for a long time. Lanzmann asks him if he dreams about Chelmno. He says no, but he does dream about his time as a prisoner of the Soviets. Lanzmann returns to the subject of the Jews forced to work in the forest unloading the bodies from the gas vans. Schalling witnessed this a couple times. Once he was given a message to give to Lenz and rode his bicycle to the forest to deliver it. He describes the camp and the mass graves. He also saw when they had to dig up the graves and burn the bodies. The fire burned throughout the night. It was extremely cold so he kept warm by the fire of burning corpses. Schalling says that the stench was terrible, spread over everything and lasted day and night. When the Jews from the forest commando were done with their work for the day they rode back to the manor house (Schloss) in the gas vans. The stench was terrible and it reached to surrounding towns. The fires turned the heavens red above the graves. Lanzmann says that he has read that it was so cold that the Jews of the forest commando sometimes climbed into the gas vans to get some warmth from the corpses. Schalling never spoke with the Jews assigned to the Waldkommando, only to those stationed in the castle. Lanzmann asks him whether he knows that only two Jews suvived Chelmno. Schalling asks Lanzmann whether it is true that the prisoners killed Lenz with a knife. He heard this first at his trial in Bonn after the war. Lanzmann asks him if he understands why the Jews never really fought back. He didn't at the time, but after being taken prisoner by the Russians he did. He understood that there wasn't really anything they could do. He says again that he tried to help the Jews by giving them something to eat. There is no video or audio for transcript pages 25-42. 02:11:17 CR6 Lanzmann asks if the SS and others would get drunk. Schalling doesn't know, but those stationed in the forest certainly did. Lanzmann also asks about the situation with women, particularly the rumored orgy organized by Bothmann. Schalling denies knowledge of this but says that his superior Hoefing (?) was quite friendly with Sister Lillia from the hospital. Lanzmann asks about a few more people, whom Schalling doesn't know. Schalling recounts his time spent in a hospital, when he wasn't allowed to leave for Christmas. Lanzmann thanks Schalling for his time and expresses his hope that it wasn't too distressing for Schalling. Schalling says that it is all coming up again and mentions the film Holocaust. Audio cuts out 02:16:00, picture also cuts out at 02:18:22.

    Czeslaw Borowi - Treblinka

    Czeslaw Borowi - Treblinka

    Film

    Czeslaw Borowi (Borowy) is a Polish peasant who lived his entire life in Treblinka. He describes the transports and the experience of living in the shadow of the camp. When the Germans were shooting at Jews, his family slept on the floor to avoid stray bullets. He repeats some of the common refrains about how rich Jews arrived in fancy trains and the Jews offered no resistance. Borowi makes the throat-slitting sign in "Shoah." See Lanzmann's memoir The Patagonian Hare for his reflections on Borowi and his role in the film. FILM ID 3348 -- Camera Rolls #46,47,48,56 -- 01:00:13 to 01:23:39 Reel 46 Lanzmann is standing in front of Borowi with translator Barbara flanking him in a field, in front of some piles of various items and a train off in the distance. Lanzmann begins by asking Borowi if he hates cinema, and then yells at his translator. Borowi says that they filmed "Departure and Return" at the same station, and hated all the extra work he was put through to recreate the station's look during the war. He says that he lived here all his life and saw the transports from a distance. He says that trains would arrive with 60 to 80 cars pulled by two locomotives, and each time a locomotive would take about 20 cars into the camp and return empty. There are three lines in the transcript that are not on the tape. 01:02:38 Borowi says that locomotives would take about 20 cars into the camp and return empty, taking about half an hour to do so. He remembers that it was very hot, and that the Germans would actually take some cars and go swimming in the Bug. Lanzmann then has some problems getting his questions answered through his translator and Borowi. Reel 47 01:04:39 Lanzmann asks for Borowi to explain better, how he could live just 200 yards from the trains that took so many Jews to their deaths. After having more trouble with Barbara Janicka, the translator, Borowi says that they brought a lot of convoys here and began building, and people began to think something was going on. Lanzmann interrupts and the reel ends. For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of The Patagonian Hare. Reel 48 01:07:08 Lanzmann asks if Borowi remembers the first transport, but he says that he doesn't remember that specific date, he never thought he'd need to remember it. He says that he does remember the first transport though, and wondered how they were going to kill so many Jews, and people began to talk about how unprecedented something like this is. He says that the Poles thought that their turn would come too, and they debated on what they would do if the Germans came for them, which surprises Lanzmann. Borowi says that they preferred to die in their town rather than in the camp, and would resist the Germans if it came to that. He mentions that the Germans promised other Germans that once the war was over, they would not work and all of the other races would work for them. All the Poles worked out of fear, waiting for when the Germans would steal them from their houses at night, and some families had people keep watch. As for the Jews, they were not as concerned about them as they were for themselves, he says. Reel 56 01:14:11 Lanzmann asks Borowi if he remembers the first convoy. He says he does, but only after Lanzmann says that the date is not important. Borowi points out where he lived at that time and says that he would have to sleep on the ground at night to make sure he wasn't shot as the Jews tried to escape. 01:17:06 Borowi asks if they're finished, Lanzmann seems to think that they are. The camera takes a shot of Lanzmann, focusing on him and then the background, then back again. It does the same for Borowi. Shots of Barbara and other B-roll. FILM ID 3349 -- Camera Roll #49 -- 02:00:20 to 02:11:24 Reel 49 Lanzmann asks about the horrible smell that everyone talked about, and Borowi said it was there. They would put bodies in ditches, then spray them with a liquid, add logs, and set it on fire, and that would cause the smell. He describes a glow over the camp from the constant burning of bodies, and you could smell it in the dew, and the wind would carry it over 10km away. He says that the families tried to shield themselves from it, by closing all the windows even on the hottest days, but it really never stopped. Borowi says that they weren't Roma, they couldn't move, so they suffered through it. He says that the Jews didn't have any nerve, not resisting, which Lanzmann asks about. He wondered why the massive numbers didn't simply overrun the few Ukrainian guards and escape. He said that the Poles tried to warn them when they asked for water from the trains, which were very cramped. Lanzmann stops the interview because he doesn't understand something. FILM ID 3350 -- Camera Rolls #50-52 -- 03:00:11 to 03:22:04 Reel 50 Lanzmann wants clarification on some statements, the one where Borowi said that they had no courage, and then how he described the conditions in the car. He asked that considering the conditions, what could they do? Borowi responds that they all had tools, and sometimes they would actually cut away the barbed wire screens. One time, he says, a Jew jumped out through that window, and when threatened by a Ukrainian, he wasn't killed. He then says that most guards were Polish, and the Jews spoke Polish, and sometimes there weren't even guards to keep them in. Lanzmann is confused, he stops the interview again. Reel 51 03:03:25 Lanzmann asks for further clarification. Borowi says that this escaped Jew was cowardly for not attacking the Ukrainian. Lanzmann presses the issue, citing the horrible conditions that the Jews had been in for two years. Borowi then, when asked, talks about the signal to the Jews, and that everyone knew what was happening to them in all nations. He says that foreign Jews arrived in Pullmans with playing cards and flowers, guarded by Police and not Gestapo men. He says that the Jews knew their fate, but wouldn't accept it, that they all tried to warn them. Lanzmann, interrupting, asks him if he really believes that the signal was to get the Jews to rise up for themselves. When he asks why the Poles didn't kill the Germans themselves, he gets a lot of an answer and interrupts the tape. Reel 52 03:12:10 Lanzmann asks why they did not kill the Germans and Ukrainians themselves. He says that they couldn't, they had their families here, they had their homes and lives here, and everybody knew everybody else, so the fear of being turned in was too great; they could kill off your family for your actions. Borowi says that the Jews who escaped the cars died here, and that many times the Ukrainians would shoot through the walls of the trains because they wanted quiet and the Jews were talking. When Borowi makes a sound he considers an imitation of their language, Lanzmann presses him on it. He asks about what would happen to the bodies, and Borowi answers that the local authorities were in charge of ensuring that the bodies got buried so that animals wouldn't get to them. 03:17:43 Lanzmann changes topics to the Jews' gold. Borowi says that some threw it out the window so some Pole could have it rather than the Germans, but most hid it in their clothes or shoes. Sometimes, he says, curious people would find hidden pockets full of money and gold in the piles of clothes left behind. FILM ID 3351 -- Camera Rolls #53-55 -- 04:00:13 to 04:31:18 Reel 53 Lanzmann asks Borowi about trafficking of goods in the area. He says that the Ukrainians would smuggle gold out of the camp, pay for goods with it, and people would come from as far as Warsaw to buy the gold. They talk about the prostitutes who would come from all around and be paid with this gold. Borowi says that as he worked the fields, sometimes, near the camp, you would hear geese and shouts of Jews. Religion is mentioned, and the prayers for the Jews, but Lanzmann has some problems with the translator again and cuts. Reel 54 04:11:33 Lanzmann asks Borowi why he thinks all of this happened to the Jews. He first declines to answer. Lanzmann presses him. He says that the old Jews always talked about a time when they would have to perish, but he does not know why. He also says that the Jewish merchants would talk about how the Germans described them as parasites that needed to be removed. He says that the Germans also considered the Roma to be lazy people like the Jews. Borowi says that the Catholic elders said that the Jews were going to atone for the death of Christ, and this must have been it. Lanzmann stops the interview, saying that they'll continue in a second. Reel 55 04:19:57 Lanzmann asks Borowi if he thinks that he [Lanzmann] is Jewish. Borowi answers yes, because of his accent and his gait. He says that Jews tended to sway, and he saw this at the inauguration of the camp [memorial]. He is glad they survived, and doesn't think this could happen again, not in the civilized world, but he also says that he really does not know the world very well at all. 04:24:28 Lanzmann thanks Borowi and offers to pay him for his interview. He asks how much he would like, and he says that he does not know, he does not want to ask for too much. They begin to joke about Jewish gold and the riches of American Jews. Lanzmann and Borowi, and perhaps translator Barbara, seem to participate in this equally. Lanzmann asks Borowi about what he thinks of Israel, and he says that they are supported by the Americans, because such a small nation would not last without them. Lanzmann says, "He's a genius! He recognized and exposed me as Jewish, immediately; he has flair, tell him he's got flair... he's got a feel for the Jews." (ellipses quoted in context). Borowi says one last thing, about how the Germans made peace with Israel after the war, and then sent police to say that the Poles murdered the Jews, when that was not true. The interview ends.

    Jan Piwonski - Sobibor

    Jan Piwonski - Sobibor

    Film

    Jan Piwonski gives a detailed description of the extermination process at Sobibor. He also provides a harrowing account of the brutal treatment the Jews received in the process of building the camp. He could hear the screams of the victims from his home three kilometers from the camp. Lanzmann quizzes him about relations between the Poles and the Jews. Piwonski says that the Poles were surprised by the Jews' lack of resistance. FILM ID 3339 -- Camera Rolls #7-8 -- 01:00:08 to 01:18:05 Lanzmann and Piwonski are seated outside on a bench in front of a small building speaking through translator Barbara Janicka. (For Lanzmann's reflections on working with Barbara and the accuracy of her translations, see pgs. 481 - 482 of the English translation of his memoir The Patagonian Hare.) On the building is the word "Sobibor" on a sign above the door. Lanzmann asks Piwonski if he is alright, to which he answers that he is fine, though he is a bit stressed. They begin the interview, learning that the building (assumedly a train station) was there since 1938 and has not changed, nor have the few buildings in the vicinity. Piwonski tells that he worked track maintenance beginning in the spring of 1942, and became an assistant switchman by July of that year, working in the building in front of which they are currently seated. Piwonski says that he could see everything that went on from the building's window, including the main gate with "Arbeit Macht Frei" and the SS logo. He begins to talk about how the camp began when he is cut off by Lanzmann, who cuts the camera. 01:06:50 Piwonski begins to tell Lanzmann about the beginnings of the camp in 1942, but prefaces his comments by saying that he never kept a diary or notes, but he believes the Germans first brought a group of Jewish workers early in March of 1942. They were housed in one of the buildings (that they are sitting near) because the camps were not yet built. The Jewish workers would unload trains of materials, carrying them on their backs, running the entire time due to the brutality of the Germans. He could not identify from where these workers came because talking to them was strictly forbidden. The construction of the camp proceeded very quickly as the first convoy of Jews arrived. 01:13:50 Piwonski talks about the beginnings of the camp, when the barracks and the wall were beginning to be built. FILM ID 3340 -- Camera Rolls #9-11 -- 01:00:08 to 01:31:07 Piwonski continues describing the construction of the camp, saying that the Germans were forcing a very fast pace and yelled constantly. He describes the constant brutality that they endured while the Jewish workers unloaded bricks. Those who witnessed such brutality were quite shocked, he says. Piwonski continues, sounding a bit angry and then quite distraught at his words, saying that based on what he observed and the rumors from the Ukrainians and Russians that worked there, that the camp would be used to get rid of the Jews. He became choked up as he discussed the Germans killing Jews who were too exhausted to work at the fast pace. He could see all this because the barbed wire fences had not yet been covered with branches and trees; the land was quite clear and everything was rather visible to the outside world. 01:11:27 Piwonski describes the arrival of the first convoy, early June 1942. He says 40 or more cars arrived in the afternoon, accompanied by SS guards. He went home shortly after they arrived, believing that they would be working in the camp like those already there. He couldn't have known that Sobibor was going to be a place of massive extermination. When he returned the next morning, there was a silence in the camp, with nobody outside, no movement to be seen, which was quite different from the usual specter of hard work and screaming. People questioned what happened, with no answers forthcoming. After the second shipment came, a smell spread throughout the area, and then they realized what the true purpose of Sobibor was: extermination. 01:20:15 Piwonski recalls knowing that extermination was going on, and he and his comrades speculating on how such a thing was being done. Later convoys were not treated the same way; instead they were treated more brutally. The trains had to be split up because of the limited space on the ramp, so Polish rail workers divided the train in two while under German supervision. When those operating the train were Polish, Piwonski would sometimes hop onto the train's tender and ride it to the main gate, trying to see inside to satisfy his curiosity, seeing SS men with dogs, and the gas chambers themselves. Concludes with silence, and a CU on Lanzmann. FILM ID 3341 -- Camera Roll #12 -- 03:00:08 to 03:21:56 Tape jumps frequently at the beginning. Piwonski says that from his town, only three kilometers away, he could hear the screams of the victims, in fact, all of Jwobeck could. These screams were indescribable, he says, hideous and terrible, a clamor of noises, of men, women, and children. The children's screams were easily distinguishable, as were gunshots and dogs barking. It was a sound that he says nobody can forget. He cannot escape it, he has nightmares to this day, very often, where he relives these scenes of those being shot, and even little children being crushed against tree trunks. The people began to piece things together, and based on the sounds of a diesel motor that ran only after a convoy had arrived, deduced that they were being killed by exhaust gas. 03:11:26 Silent scenes of the interview from afar, angles from further down the street opposite Barbara. You can see a crowd gathered off-camera to watch. CUs of some of those in the crowd follow. FILM ID 3342 -- Camera Rolls #13,15-20 -- 04:00:10 to 04:18:39 Piwonski and Lanzmann walk through the forests around Sobibor while smoking cigarettes. Barbara is translating from off-screen. Lanzmann asks if people still hunt in these forests, to which Piwonski replies that they do, rather often. Lanzmann questions the locations, asking about the communal graves and the location of the camp itself. Piwonski reminds him that while they are within the confines of the camp, it is only the expanded camp, which was done in 1943. Only people were hunted then, he says. The borders of the camp in the forest were two and a half meter tall posts with five lines of barbed wire, along with a minefield. Those who attempted escape often failed. Piwonski says that the guards told stories of investigating exploded mines, where they would find a deer or an unfortunate Jew. Lanzmann repeats grimly, "a deer or a Jew..." 04:05:40 This segment's audio is very faint, and the picture soon cuts to brown. It was Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara walking towards the camera from the edge of the forest. As the audio reaches an audible level, the group is walking past the camera, stopping in front of it. It becomes clear that the group is talking about where things were located, and that the trees were planted by the Germans in 1943 so as to hide the camp. 04:10:33 Cut to a massive wall of piled logs that winds into the distance, a logging yard. The group of Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara are walking towards the camera. What they say is inaudible. 04:12:24 Massive wall of piled logs that winds into the distance, a logging yard, the same shot and pan once again. The group of Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara are walking past the camera lower left, barely audible. Cut to them sitting down on some logs to continue the interview. The tape cuts to brown, the audio for a new segment begins, but they are no longer on the log. It appears that the audio and video are not properly in sync here. They walk towards the bench again. 04:15:41 They are in the forest again, this time the camera views from afar. They are inaudible. FILM ID 3343 -- Camera Roll #14 -- 05:00:08 to 05:11:24 Tape jumps frequently at the beginning. Piwonski and Lanzmann walk through the forest with Barbara off-screen. Lanzmann comments on how hard it is to imagine the horrors of Sobibor happening in these tranquil forests. Piwonski agrees, and says that the judges from Frankfurt agreed with that feeling. One judge said that the scents were so idyllic that it was romantic, and that it was hard for him to reconstruct the Nazi horrors in his mind because of it. 05:04:14 Piwonski, Lanzmann, and Barbara (off-screen) have stopped walking. Piwonski says, at Lanzmann's asking, that there was no way for the Poles to tell the Jews what was about to happen to them at Sobibor. 05:05:15 Piwonski describes the relationship that the Poles had with the Ukrainians and Germans. There wasn't much interaction between them, but the Poles were discriminated against. The Ukrainians, who worked in the camp, were often overheard saying "good, now we can finish up the Jews and start on you." 05:08:26 Lanzmann asks Piwonski if the Ukrainians trafficked goods. Piwonski tells of them trying to sell items that were stolen from the Jews. He tells one story of a Ukrainian guard who tried to buy a bottle of Vodka from him. The Ukrainian wanted to use a bunch of gold-filled teeth, still bloody from the decomposing corpse that they were pulled from. Piwonski refused, and still seems disturbed by the scen