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Jan Karski

Film | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.166 | RG Number: RG-60.5006 | Film ID: 3133, 3134, 3135, 3136, 3137, 3138, 3139, 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143

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    Jan Karski
    Transcript
    (film slating)
    Well, I see that you have everything.
    What?
    [INAUDIBLE] get out my notes.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    All right.
    Let's start with the very beginning.
    I would like to know, what were your first missions?
    You were a courier of the Polish government in exile after the--
    Yes, most of the war.
    I was a liaison officer between the leadership
    of various segments of the Polish Underground,
    and then a courier between political parties--
    from time to time, the home army,
    delegate of the government, and the Polish government in exile.
    In this capacity, first, I was sent to [INAUDIBLE],, France,
    in November 1940.
    From Warsaw?
    From Warsaw.
    From Warsaw.
    Carrying the messages to the Polish--
    (film slating)
    Well, Presov was a little hole in Slovakia,
    and their methods of interrogation
    were rather primitive--
    beating, beating, beating.
    SS men interrogated me.
    I was supposed to look at him, answer
    his question without any delay.
    And then, behind me, if I stopped, if I tried to think,
    they would hit me here.
    Apparently, this is a painful place.
    And your teeth?
    And then, they were beating me.
    They broke my teeth.
    They broke my jaw.
    They broke my ribs.
    I couldn't take it anymore.
    My bad luck was that they had Leica.
    They knew that I was, from their standpoint, evidently a spy.
    I was sure that it was developed totally.
    It wasn't.
    Mainly, apparently, water did not
    come to the end, and some last four or five squares--
    Leica had 38-or-something squares.
    At a certain point, the SS officer brings it, and he says,
    what is this?
    Now, thinking that everything was destroyed,
    my explanation was, I am not concerned with the war.
    I have a girlfriend in Switzerland.
    I lived in Switzerland before, which was true.
    I gave the correct name, street, whatsoever.
    I wanted to escape from Poland, live in Switzerland,
    to get out of this mess.
    I have nothing against Germans.
    I don't want to live in Poland.
    I've had enough of it.
    I found a man who told me, give it in Geneva to somebody.
    I gave the name, fictional now.
    What is inside?
    I asked him.
    Pictures of the ruins of Warsaw.
    There is nothing else in this film.
    For this, he gave me money and promised me
    that his friend in Switzerland will pay me for it.
    This is why I have this film.
    SS man now takes it from his drawer,
    stretches, gives me a magnifying glass, says, read it.
    And then, to my horror, I see the last four or five squares--
    not even coded-- pure clear text of some report,
    which was insignificant.
    Names only-- first, letters.
    And then, he says, you are lying.
    So then, beating, beating, beating.
    You must tell us who you are.
    Who sent you?
    He was a rather cultured man, as a matter of fact-- a young man,
    good-looking, efficient, whatsoever.
    His point was, you are in the Polish Underground.
    We want to get in touch with your leaders.
    We want to have some settlement.
    We are not interested in killing the Poles.
    We are not interested in destroying your elite.
    We must find some accommodation, so that the Poles will not
    fight us anymore.
    Well, the war is practically over.
    It doesn't make any sense.
    For this, you must enable us to get
    in touch with your authorities.
    Of course, I was playing that role.
    I am stupid.
    I don't know anything, et cetera.
    Beating-- well, I couldn't take it anymore.
    Now, in my shoe, I had a blade, very primitive at that time.
    I cut both hands, succeeded in cutting--
    Your veins?
    Now, I had-- but this is after cosmetic operation,
    eventually in 1943.
    So at that time, it was [INAUDIBLE]..
    They saved me.
    Now, apparently, they considered that Presov is not safe for me.
    They send me back to Poland by car with two Gestapo with me.
    Now, I had good luck.
    They send me to Nowy Sacz, from which I departed,
    and where I had a liaison girl who
    was responsible for my trip.
    They sent me to a prison hospital, public hospital.
    Only in my room, the Gestapo--
    every eight hours, they were changing and treating me.
    I was badly hurt.
    My hands were this.
    You were very important for them.
    Yes.
    They wanted to save me, apparently, for confrontations.
    And now, so my point was, I learned this is Nowy Sacz.
    How to establish contact with the girl?
    I succeeded, mainly first.
    There was a doctor.
    His name is [INAUDIBLE].
    He still lives in Poland.
    I saw him after the war.
    When he treated my hands, he just whispered to me,
    you are very sick.
    Simulate that you are very sick.
    Try to stay in the hospital as long as possible.
    We will do something.
    You are sick.
    So I understood.
    I was mortally sick all the time.
    Then, I want to go to confession.
    I committed a mortal sin.
    I want to go to confession.
    In that hospital, there was a chapel.
    Gestapo agreed.
    So on the wheels, I went to mass.
    I went to confession.
    And then, I played luck.
    A priest-- whatever I say is safe.
    I confessed, got absolution, and then I stay.
    Slovak language is very similar to Polish.
    I don't know Slovak.
    In Polish, I whispered, Father, I have more to say.
    What?
    Somebody has to go.
    Such is the name.
    Such is the address.
    There will be a young lady.
    And tell her what happens here.
    I am Witold.
    Tell her.
    Witold is here.
    Witold was your code name?
    My pseudonym at that time.
    Amusing story, Father answered.
    My son, this is confession.
    This is not politics.
    You have no right to ask me for this.
    But then, he said, well, I will think about it.
    Two or three days later, a nun comes.
    They were allowed to serve.
    He approached my bed.
    (film slating)
    Well, the two or three days later, a nun enters my room.
    They were allowed to serve in the hospital.
    She brought me some apples, some cookie.
    She approaches my bed.
    I recognized her.
    It was my liaison girl.
    She put everything.
    She whispered to me, Jozef notified.
    Jozef was at that time the most prominent socialist leader.
    Jozef Cyrankiewicz.
    After the war, he served for 18 years
    as the prime minister of Poland.
    And he was in Auschwitz, too.
    Yes, the same one.
    He organized my escape.
    Yes.
    Now, I whispered now to the nun, to the liaison girl, do
    everything, whatever they want.
    I cannot go back to Gestapo.
    I cannot take torture any longer.
    Either let them save me, or let them give me cyanide.
    I cannot take it.
    Cyanide?
    Cyanide.
    Poison?
    Poison.
    She returned again.
    Two days, whatever it is.
    Brought me some fruits, puts her hand under a pillow.
    This is cyanide.
    Very well, organized.
    This is a pill.
    Put it.
    It is well-adapted on a tape with hair around it.
    Whispers to me, put it under your groins.
    Don't use it.
    Jozef told me they will try to save you.
    Only in extreme, take it.
    He saved me, very simply.
    Apparently, what I learned later--
    one of the Gestapo men was so-called volksdeutsche.
    They bought him.
    They gave him some false documents, money, [INAUDIBLE]
    also.
    He did not see that some few nights,
    on some signal from Dr. [INAUDIBLE],,
    I had to take all my clothes, naked, get out of my room,
    cross the corridor, approach a window,
    the window would be open, and jumped,
    without thinking about anything else.
    Completely naked.
    Completely naked, I jumped down.
    And some [INAUDIBLE] it was, I believe, the second floor
    thing.
    Not [INAUDIBLE] some clothes, took me.
    There is some river, to a river, to a boat.
    I thanked them profusely for saving my life.
    The guy who later became my friend said,
    well, don't thank us too much.
    We had two orders to save you, if there would
    be complications, to shoot you.
    He says, that's all right.
    We were lucky you were lucky.
    Took me to some estate, a little estate,
    which the Germans allowed to function.
    And I spent there some three months, first to recover.
    Secondly, we had a rule in the Underground.
    Once you were arrested by Gestapo, and then you escaped,
    we called it, you had to pass through quarantine period.
    You are not kosher, you know.
    And we have to check, are you observed, are you followed,
    or perhaps you are a double agent, whatsoever.
    So three months passed.
    I recovered completely.
    I wanted to go back.
    Still they kept me over there, and then they said, all right.
    I went back to Kraków, spent in Kraków some four, five months.
    This is now-- we are in 1940.
    Then in Kraków, arrests took place.
    As a matter of fact, at that time,
    commander of Kraków [INAUDIBLE] was Bor-Komorowski, who--
    so he left Kraków, went to Warsaw,
    became the deputy commander-in-chief.
    And eventually, when Rowecki was arrested in July 1943,
    he became commander-in-chief.
    He writes about me in his book here--
    all this mission.
    And he left Kraków.
    I left Kraków as well.
    Then came Cyrankiewicz, mainly.
    In April, I remember, Easter time, Cyrankiewicz arrested.
    I had highest admiration for him.
    He saved my life.
    As a matter of fact, I volunteered
    to the Polish Socialist Party.
    If there is some rescue squad, I must be in it.
    He saved my life.
    I want to contribute now something for him.
    They rejected this.
    They said you are intelligentsia,
    and this is a rough, tough job.
    You are not good for this kind of things.
    OK.
    (film slating)
    Well, somewhat in the middle of 1942, first,
    I was thinking about continuing my service as a courier.
    Among others, I approached the delegates
    of the Polish government in the Underground.
    At the time, it was a certain professor [INAUDIBLE]..
    He said, yes, if you want to go, it is a little dangerous,
    because you are marked.
    You have still-- your wrists are recognizable.
    And of course, the Gestapo knows that you escaped.
    But perhaps, it will work.
    As a matter of fact, the socialist leader,
    Pużak he was against sending me.
    But I insisted.
    They agreed to do it.
    So now, I went in the same character,
    approaching the leadership of every political major party--
    peasant party, socialist party, nationalist party,
    Christian Labor Party with the messages from the delegate
    of the government.
    And everyone had the right to ask
    me to deliver their messages either to their groups
    in London or even to the individuals.
    They trusted my memory, and they trusted my honesty.
    I will not make any intrigues.
    You didn't take any kind of notes?
    None, whatsoever.
    Everything was memorized?
    Purely everything was in my head--
    nothing except the one thing.
    This is now-- we are in 1942.
    Already, our equipment is better.
    Already, Americans and British supplied us.
    Yes, I did take mainly microfilm.
    The size of it was like American matches,
    some three matches put together, rolled.
    It was melted into a key, small key, and then melted back.
    And my mission was to hold the key, completely unrecognizable.
    This I succeeded to carry with me.
    I was not arrested during that time.
    Then in London, when they developed that microfilm,
    it represented 400 typed pages.
    Such technique was already developed.
    Americans entered the picture and already helped us.
    So this was the only message I had.
    Of course, I had no slightest idea what was in that key.
    Only hold this key.
    If there is a danger, of course, throw it [INAUDIBLE]..
    Otherwise, everything to my memory.
    Now, when I agreed and started to circulate
    between political parties, and then political counsel--
    we had a counsel of the political parties attached
    to the delegate of the government.
    Now, the Jewish leaders learned about it--
    that the courier goes.
    Apparently, he's reliable, et cetera.
    They learned about me.
    So now, the Jewish leaders--
    they had their own underground movement.
    As you know, in Poland, you had 100 types of Jews--
    assimilated, not assimilated, organized--
    I presume you know.
    They had a multitude of political parties, groups,
    orientations, et cetera.
    So now, the most important groups were Bund and Zionists.
    Politically, both of them already were, so to say,
    incorporated into the apparatus of the delegate,
    but they were separate.
    They had their own organization.
    (film slating)
    Well, at a certain point, the information
    came from the delegates of the government
    that Jewish leaders want to see.
    Apparently, they want to use your services.
    Do you want to see them?
    Yes, I would.
    Meetings arranged-- I met them twice.
    When was it?
    This was in October 1942, at the beginning.
    At the time, the situation of the Jews of Warsaw
    was catastrophic.
    Yes.
    In October-- at the beginning of October, of course--
    end of September, possibly.
    By that time, a Jewish ghetto in Warsaw,
    which originally consisted of approximately 400,000 Jews--
    over 300,000 were already deported to--
    To Treblinka?
    Yes-- between July or August, whatsoever, maybe September.
    Still, in the ghetto, at that time,
    were approximately 50,000 Jews left.
    Yes.
    And all the others had been already gassed in Treblinka.
    Yes.
    As a matter of fact, at that time, even the ghetto--
    practically, there were four ghettos
    within the walls of the original ghetto.
    In some parts, the Aryans could move.
    Some parts of it, they were empty.
    Nobody wanted to go too deeply and live over there.
    The most important part was the so-called central ghetto,
    around the Platz Muranowski I don't know whether you visited.
    This was the part I was smuggled in.
    Well, so now, to the meetings--
    a meeting was arranged.
    There were two gentlemen.
    It was very formal at the beginning.
    They introduced themselves.
    I represent for the sake of this meeting, Bund, one.
    I represent Zionists.
    They didn't give their names?
    Nobody gave the names.
    Only Polish leaders-- you know, I knew them.
    I was in contact several times.
    Of course, nobody introduced--
    nobody was supposed to know my name, as a matter of fact.
    We had pseudonyms.
    Only with the Polish leaders.
    Yes, because you knew them.
    Yes, I knew who they were.
    Now, those two gentlemen--
    I was never involved in Jewish affairs.
    I say, no, I am not a Jew.
    So I didn't know them, naturally.
    Until today, you know, I do not know their names.
    Only after the war, in all Polish publications,
    they mentioned that the man who represented Bund was Feiner.
    Leon Feiner?
    Yes.
    I never knew during the war.
    When even I reported to London, I did not report the name.
    Only authorized leader of Bund told me this and this.
    Second, the Zionist-- in the Polish publications
    after the war, they say, he was Berman.
    Adolf Berman.
    They introduced themselves, and then they told me,
    we know about you.
    We know you are going to London.
    We also have messages.
    Will you take messages from us?
    We are Polish citizens.
    We feel we are entitled to the services.
    But this is up to you, Mr. Witold--
    that was my pseudonym.
    I said, yes, I will do it.
    Then, they presented their demands.
    Can you describe the meetings with the two men?
    Did it take place in the ghetto, the meeting?
    No.
    No, twice, two houses outside of the ghetto.
    They did not live in the ghetto.
    The Zionist leader never went with me to the ghetto.
    On my two visits to the Warsaw ghetto,
    Bund leader accompanied me-- apparently, Feiner.
    Zionist leader, I never met him again.
    I never met again after those meetings.
    Bund leader-- not [INAUDIBLE].
    Yes.
    But let's come back to the first meeting.
    In some old house, ruined, cold.
    It was the beginning of October, cold.
    They were well-dressed, relatively, undistinguishable
    from the Aryan, naturally Aryan.
    Then during the meeting, at various points, so to say,
    they did break down--
    They broke down?
    Yes, they broke down.
    They were of course excited, frustrated,
    shouting, whispering, walking in the rooms.
    When they were describing their demands--
    what do they want?
    Well, so now, I go back in my memory to the other world.
    So what is your--
    do you want me now to deal with those two sessions?
    Oh, yes.
    Or about the ghetto?
    No, no, no.
    The two sessions.
    What did they ask specifically, for you to report to the world?
    They gave me several messages.
    Some of them-- one of them, only to the president
    of the Polish Republic, Wladyslaw Raczkiewicz.
    They specifically forbade me to discuss this subject
    with the Jewish leaders in London, mainly.
    They were afraid that in their zeal, despair, frustration,
    they might complicate the problem.
    The problem was, the Germans are physically
    exterminating the Jews.
    From whatever we know, this will continue, regardless
    of the outcome of the war.
    On a humanitarian basis--
    Zionist, as a matter of fact, he interjected, Christianity
    has roots in Judaism.
    We feel entitled to expect protection from the Vatican.
    Sanctions must be applied against Catholics
    who take directly or indirectly any part
    in Jewish extermination.
    Excuse me.
    Did they give you the feeling, and did they
    have themselves a feeling that what was at stake at the time
    was extermination not of individuals but of the whole
    of the Jewish people?
    Both of them, they had no doubts about this.
    The most outspoken was the Bund leader--
    What did he say?
    --in this respect.
    Many-- of course, the majority of the Poles
    consider themselves Catholics.
    I repeat now their reaction.
    Now, however, there are very many
    Germans, many German officials who not only are born Catholics
    but who consider themselves still Catholics.
    As a matter of fact, Hitler was a born Catholic.
    From whatever we know about your Catholic church,
    we understand the pope has a jurisdiction in excommunicating
    the faithful.
    We leave it to the wisdom, to the conscience
    of the president of the Polish Republic, to approach the pope.
    You will discuss it only with him, not
    even with the prime minister, not with the Jewish leaders.
    We understand diplomatic protocol.
    Only the head of state can approach the pope
    on our behalf to apply sanctions against the Catholics,
    both Polish and Germans, and to make those sanctions public.
    Perhaps it will help a little.
    Who knows?
    Perhaps Hitler will reflect, if excommunication publicly
    will be announced.
    What did they ask?
    Specifically it was excommunication?
    They mentioned several times--
    we know excommunication is in the jurisdiction of the pope.
    There are precedents that he did it.
    (film slating)
    So now, in this nightmarish two meetings I had with them--
    nightmarish meetings-- well, then they
    presented their demands, several demands.
    Did they show some hope in the fulfillment
    of these demands or not?
    Yes.
    Some of them, yes.
    It must be done.
    For instance, Polish authorities on certain subjects
    so far have failed to do their duties.
    So they were hopeful.
    You may help us.
    Certain things must be done.
    Certain demands, no.
    They didn't believe themselves.
    They didn't believe what they asked for.
    No.
    Yeah.
    So now, do you want me to deal with this problem
    of their demands?
    What did they want?
    So what?
    The President of the Polish Republic, I covered.
    Intervention with the pope.
    Next, to the allied governments only.
    And, in this way, I was supposed to do my utmost
    to see whomever.
    My cleverness, my shrewdness, my perseverance
    would allow me to reach them.
    Only officials, government officials.
    Polish government-- not very important.
    You will have to talk to the prime minister,
    to the Minister of Interior, to the Council of Ministers.
    Officially present to them our demands.
    What is more important?
    Allied leaders.
    Allied.
    Yeah.
    At that time I didn't know-- they
    didn't know that I would reach also America.
    I didn't expect it.
    So British government leaders--
    the message was Jewish situation is unprecedented.
    It never happened before
    Hitler cannot be allowed to continue extermination.
    Consequently, every day counts.
    Thousands of Jews are being murdered.
    The allies-- allied governments cannot treat this war only from
    purely military strategic standpoint.
    They will win the war if they take such an attitude.
    But who or what good will it do to us?
    Hitler will lose the war against humanity.
    But he will win his war against the Jews.
    The allied governments cannot take such a stand.
    We contributed to humanity.
    We gave scientists.
    For thousands of years we originated great religions.
    We are humans.
    It's what they said?
    Yes.
    The Allies cannot disregard the uniqueness of our problem.
    (film slating)
    Well, they said that Hitler will lose the war,
    but that he will win his war against the Jews?
    What good to the Jews will come out of his victory?
    At times they were almost hateful towards me.
    They were whispering almost with hatred,
    you Poles, you will survive.
    You will win this war.
    You will rebuild your country.
    You will live.
    You will make sacrifices, but you will survive as a nation.
    But we are perishing.
    Do you understand?
    We will not survive this war.
    Then we understand we have no country of our own.
    We have no government.
    We have no voice in the allied councils.
    So we have to use services, little people like you are.
    So we are trying our best.
    Will you do it?
    Will you approach them?
    Because, so far, nothing happens.
    The allied will listen to the radio.
    They are making-- winning the war, victorious.
    But we are perishing.
    Nobody is helping us here.
    So what is good to us out of all of this?
    Will you fulfill your mission?
    Whatever you can do-- you are a little man.
    Perhaps you will be able to contribute something
    to this problem.
    Approach the allied leaders.
    We want an official declaration of the Allied Nations
    that in addition to their military strategy,
    which aims at securing victory--
    military victory in this war--
    extermination of the Jews forms a separate chapter.
    And the Allied Nations formally publicly announce
    that they will deal with this problem,
    that it becomes a part of their overall strategy in this war.
    Not only defeat of Germany, but also saving the remaining
    Jewish population.
    Once they make such an official declaration
    they have Air Force.
    They drop the bombs on Germany.
    Why cannot they drop millions of leaflets on the German
    population, informing the German population exactly what
    their government is doing to the Jews?
    Perhaps they don't know it.
    But they have data.
    They have statistics.
    Through radio, other means, we give the name of the officials,
    German officials.
    We offer statistics.
    The data is available.
    Let them inform the German people officially
    as the governments, this is what the German government is doing.
    Let them officially, publicly inform the German people.
    We, the allies, ally the governments.
    We expect that the German people will exercise pressure,
    whatever pressure you can exercise on your own government
    that they stop it, whatever harm they did.
    Every day counts.
    They must do it now.
    They had an extraordinary feeling of urgency,
    of emergency.
    Yes, naturally.
    Day after day extermination continued.
    This was only August 1942.
    Next.
    And it's Berman, who said, I think that--
    He was more-- yes, I think Zionist.
    Yes, Zionist.
    And the Germans understood?
    Yes
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    But the most outspoken was the Bund leader, apparently Feiner.
    Then our situation is unique.
    We understand that many people may also
    feel helpless, what to do.
    So we present their demands also,
    which we know ourselves probably they cannot do.
    But we have to present those demands,
    they were like mad, both of them, at a certain point they
    were grabbing my-- do you understand, do you understand?
    Let them announce that German war prisoners, having
    been informed what happens to the Jews,
    still profess allegiance to their government.
    Let them be held responsible for this--
    for those crimes.
    And there are many German nationals
    in the Allied countries.
    Those Germans, and we understand they
    are allowed to do it, who profess allegiance to Germany
    still, having been informed of what happens,
    let the Allies hold them responsible for it.
    We understand that perhaps they will not do it.
    We have to advance these demands.
    Young man, do you understand, do you understand?
    We have to do it, to show to them.
    It never happened before in history what
    is happening to our people now.
    Perhaps it will shake the conscience of the world.
    This you will give to the government officials, whatever
    officials you will be able to.
    They asked even for--
    it's what you write in your book-- for execution
    of these Germans, who were in the hands of the Allies?
    If it is necessary, for execution,
    holding them responsible.
    I heard that you protested against this.
    At the time, I was already an educated man.
    I studied the law, part of my curriculum
    was international law, and this is against international law.
    Do you realize, I would, they will not do it.
    Say, yes, we know it, we want you to say it,
    to show to them that this is again and again,
    unique situation, that unprecedented actions have
    to take place whatever.
    This is what is on my mind.
    Perhaps this will help, perhaps it will help.
    Let them try whatever.
    The Allied governments, the Allied Nations cannot disregard
    the Jewish extermination.
    They cannot just look for military victory,
    and then like mad walking in the room, do you understand,
    do you understand, do you understand this?
    Yeah, I agree to it.
    So this was one mission.
    Next, by the way, there are representatives, Polish Jews,
    they take part in your National Council in your government.
    In London?
    In London.
    Probably they cannot do too much,
    we don't doubt that they are trying to do their best.
    (film slating)
    Yes.
    Then probably representatives of the Polish Jews
    in the government cannot do more.
    But there are international Jewish leaders,
    for centuries we hear that they are so powerful, that they
    are so influential.
    In every country, in England, in America, in France.
    What are they doing?
    We want evidence, we don't see evidence.
    They send us money.
    It is insufficient, by the way, the amount of money we receive,
    it is totally insufficient.
    But we don't see any evidence, what else do they do?
    So where is there an influence?
    Reach as many as possible, tell them this, they cannot--
    they must (STUTTERING) do more--
    we don't know what they can do.
    But we want to see that they are doing more for us.
    But, excuse me, what did they request precisely
    from the Polish Jews who were in the members of the government?
    There were also precise demands.
    My message was-- apparently they considered three individuals
    as, let's say, authoritative representatives of the Polish
    Jews, Szmul Zygielbojm, member of the National Council,
    Dr. Schwarzbart, member of the National Council,
    Dr. Leon Grosfeld, who was not a member of the Bund,
    he was a leader of the Polish Socialist Party.
    They considered him, he also as a Jew
    represents the Polish Jews.
    And he or--
    I reported to those three.
    As a matter of fact, when I came to London
    and began reporting there was another individual,
    his name was Tartakower, by the way.
    He wanted to see me, I refused.
    I have no message to you, if you want
    to know what I brought to, ask Szmul Zygielbojm,
    ask Schwarzbart ask Grosfeld.
    I never saw Tartakower.
    I know he resented it.
    So now, as far as the Polish Jews were concerned,
    this was the message to them, and to the Prime Minister
    of the Polish government, General Sikorski,
    and to the Minister of Interior Wladyslaw Raczkiewicz,
    the problem was such--
    there are some Jews who escaped from the ghetto.
    They live, some of them, under false documents,
    they do not look Semitic and they are living in
    among other Poles.
    Second there are Jews who succeeded
    to escape from Poland, who are in hiding, many of them living
    with Polish families in the cities or in the countryside.
    Succeeded to escape from the ghetto?
    From the ghetto, yes.
    Now, we know there are Poles who blackmailed
    them, who murdered them, who denounced them to Gestapo.
    We are Polish citizens, men, do you understand
    that, we are probably citizens.
    There is an underground, you say you are an underground state,
    you are the government, you must take an action against them.
    General Sikorski, as commander in chief and as prime minister
    of Poland, must issue orders that the underground movement
    in Poland will apply punitive sanctions,
    executions included-- secret executions, kill them--
    and then publish the names of those
    whom you killed in the underground press
    and give the nature of their crimes--
    underground press was very widely spread--
    then others will learn about it-- this is a risky business.
    Such orders must be issued.
    It's a risky business to blackmail the Jews
    and to denounce them?
    Yes.
    Yes, now, I remember when I reported this to Zygielbojm,
    and it was at that point he was already totally disintegrated.
    He burst out, such orders will be issued,
    I will blow up Sikorski's office if he does not
    issue this order.
    Beginning with February or March 1943,
    I have photostatic copies, executions were carried out,
    the names were published in the underground press,
    the nature of the crime was specified.
    And the commitment of the Civil Commission, it was called,
    executions will continue against those
    against whom we have evidence that they committed one
    of those three crimes.
    This was to Sikorsky, Mikolajczyk
    and the Polish leaders, Jews.
    But I was specifically forbidden, by the way,
    in this respect not to discuss this problem
    with any political party leaders.
    They suspected some of them might not like it apparently.
    Only to those individuals.
    Next I was specifically forbidden
    to discuss the subject with any non-Polish Jew.
    This means an English Jew, American Jew?
    Yes.
    They were making that point, this
    may feed anti-Polish propaganda of anti-Semitism,
    we don't want that, we want to survive,
    this is not a political matter.
    But they have something else from Zygielbojm and the Polish
    Jews.
    What do you mean?
    To-- to enter in hunger strikes, in front of the government
    and--
    Oh yes, oh yes.
    So this was another part of the mission.
    I cut this mission--
    Well?
    Then
    (TALKING UNDER HIS BREATH)
    Yes, that was another problem.
    I didn't know it at that time, I was not
    acquainted with the Jewish problem or Jewish activities.
    Both of them, particularly now the Zionist leader,
    he was again like whispering, hissing to me,
    something is going to happen, particularly young elements,
    they will fight.
    They speak about declaration of war
    against the Third Reich, unique war in the world history,
    they say, they want to die fighting.
    By the way I didn't know at the time,
    Irgun already was active at that time, October.
    Only later I learned already Jewish Military Organization
    emerged.
    I had no idea, they didn't tell me about it,
    only that something is going to happen, the Jews will fight.
    We approached the commander of the Home Army--
    they need arms, those arms that were denied.
    They were refused?
    Refused.
    Now, we know that when they start fighting,
    we know how it will end.
    But they are Polish citizens, they
    want to fight against the enemy.
    They cannot be denied arms, if such items exist,
    and we know you have arms.
    This message to commander in chief, General Sikorski
    to issue orders that those arms will be given to the Jews.
    This means that they foresaw--
    Apparently they knew, at that time I didn't know.
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    Apparently but I--
    (film slating)
    Well, when they asked me to carry the message complaining
    against the commander in chief of the Home Army,
    I refused to carry the message, unless they authorized
    me to seek an appointment with him,
    to repeat to him what message I am carrying.
    Excuse me, when they were requesting for arms already
    at this time, this means that they foresaw that there would
    be the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising?
    Apparently.
    I understand my role in this film, at that time
    I didn't know anything about it.
    And Berman said-- I say it.
    I would like you to repeat this, it
    will be the most desperate war which er--
    Yes, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto,
    they are talking about it.
    They want to wage--
    they declare a war against the Third Reich,
    never such a war took place.
    They want to die fighting, what can we do?
    We cannot deny them this kind of death.
    Well, and then arms.
    No.
    So at that point I refused to carry the message
    unless they are authorized me to seek
    an appointment with the commander in chief of the Home
    Army, General Stefan Rowecki, who, by the way,
    perished one year later, to repeat to him the complaint,
    and to ask him for comments.
    They heartily agreed, go, go.
    I did go, I did see him.
    His answer was, I am a military commander,
    I act within the statute which the Home Army has,
    I am subjected to orders which are coming
    from the commander in chief.
    Now, I do have arms, I am using those arms--
    and I don't have many of them--
    first, for daily sabotage of my members of the Home Army,
    second for larger diversionary activities--
    derailing trains, blowing up the buildings, et cetera.
    The most important, I act within our general strategy that I
    cannot waste any arms, I have to keep them.
    Because when the end of Germany will come,
    and when the Russian armies will push them on our territories,
    and we come to the conclusion that this
    will be a proper moment, I must have every weapon
    I can put my hand on it, to stab Germany in the back.
    Now, I know that the Jews in the ghetto
    are contemplating some military action.
    I understand, I have respect for it,
    but militarily it is without any significance.
    What can they do against the Third Reich?
    I will give them whatever the commander in chief, General
    Sikorski orders me to do.
    Otherwise it is beyond my jurisdiction.
    Did he talk at the time about, I think I remember also,
    about the ability or the inability of the Jews to fight?
    I think he had some distrust in this respect.
    Well as far as I remember he did not
    consider it as a military-- as an action
    of military significance.
    But he was a military leader, he acted within his statute.
    This was a moral standpoint which had to be applied--
    ethical, whatsoever.
    But he would do, he must receive order that is--
    As a matter of fact, he said the same thing as Berman,
    when Berman told you this will be the most
    hopeless declaration of war.
    Yes, only Berman wanted arms.
    Yes, I know.
    And he says, I act under orders.
    Within the structure of my organization
    only military actions count.
    I must receive specific orders from the Commander -in-chief.
    Now I did carry the message, the message
    was, again, Zygielbojm, Schwarzbart, Grosfeld, and only
    Sikorski to nobody else.
    Particularly again, they emphasize,
    you will not speak about it to any non-Polish Jewish leader,
    it may arouse anti-Polish propaganda.
    We don't want it, we are not interested in it,
    we want to deal with our own business.
    I reported.
    Because again, you must realize, at that time
    my mission was important, but I was a little man.
    Nobody told me what were they going to do
    with what I told them to do.
    The same with General Sikorski--
    orders will be issued, we will handle
    this problem, Lieutenant.
    I was-- at that time I was supposed to go back to Poland.
    Lieutenant, either you, or somebody else,
    will carry orders.
    What orders?
    He didn't tell me--
    I couldn't ask him, General what are you going to do about it?
    Now what I understand and realize that--
    after the war by the way, from the Jewish publication--
    that when the Warsaw uprising-- the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising--
    started, April 1943, they did receive some small arms.
    At the beginning, the first delivery that Rowecki made
    was only 10 pistols.
    Yes, this I have no information, you know how many-- what--
    I understand he gave them some machine guns--
    Afterwards--
    Yes.
    Some machine guns, some light weapons.
    Later on.
    Now, was it the result of my mission?
    Did he received orders?
    Did he do it on his own initiative?
    What do I know about that?
    At a certain point I remember, I raised this question,
    those demands are so varied, on such a scale,
    well, I can see my situation in London.
    What Zygielbojm-- what Schwarzbart--
    what Grosfeld-- what can they do about it?
    I am sure they are doing their best.
    So then again, like a nervous breakdown,
    I think again that it was a Zionist.
    Again he shaped-- shook me--
    so what, again impossible, yes?
    You're saying impossible, so nothing, nothing.
    They cannot do.
    Tell them, they are Jewish leaders,
    their people are dying, there will be no Jews.
    So what more do we need the leaders?
    We are going to die as well, we don't try to escape,
    we stay here.
    Let them go to important officers
    in London, wherever they are.
    Let them demand for action.
    If it is refused, let them walk out, stay in the street,
    refuse food, refuse drink, let them die.
    That slow death.
    Let them die?
    Die, die, slow death.
    In view of all humanity.
    Who knows, perhaps it will strike
    the conscience of the world.
    They were toppled like a breakdown, perhaps this help.
    We don't know, we are dying--
    they are leaders, let them die.
    Yes, so then came Szmul Zygielbojm.
    Well, so what, do you want me to talk about Szmul Zygielbojm,
    or what?
    You want to talk now?
    Whatever.
    That's fine.
    (film slating)
    Washington, Karski, [FRENCH].
    And who asked you to visit the Warsaw
    ghetto and who organized it?
    To be able to say I saw it myself.
    They are this way.
    Apparently, she knew English.
    This will be good.
    We can organize for you to visit the Jewish ghetto.
    Without great difficulties, we can
    organize for you to visit Jewish camp in Belzec.
    Extermination camp?
    Yes.
    Now, he says, I don't think that you will run
    into some extraordinary risk.
    But of course you may say no.
    Would you do it?
    If you do, to the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw, I will go with you.
    So I will be sure that you will be as safe as possible.
    To Belzec, we have good contacts.
    Will you do it?
    I said, I will do it.
    Well, a few days later, he will establish contact.
    He told me, well, of course, no fancy dresses
    and don't shave before.
    We have to look as much as possible,
    as they look over there.
    It will be very unpleasant for your experience.
    But it will be useful.
    So now, it was very easy.
    No accident of whatever nature.
    By that time, by the way, Jewish ghetto,
    as it existed in 1942 until July, did not exist anymore.
    Out of approximately 400,000 Jews, in the meantime,
    some 300,000 were already deported from the ghetto.
    So within the outside walls, practically, there
    were some four units.
    The most important was the so-called central ghetto.
    And they were separated by some areas
    or inhabited by the Aryans already,
    some areas not inhabited by anybody.
    The story was, there was some building.
    And this building was constructed
    in such a way that the wall which separated the ghetto
    from the outside world--
    the back of the building, it was a part of that wall.
    So the front was facing the Aryan area.
    Very simply, there was some cellar with some tunnel.
    And they were smuggling food, whatsoever.
    Jews coming out.
    They were going.
    We went through this tunnel without any kind
    of difficulties.
    I was not disguised.
    He was not disguised, which struck me--
    completely different man.
    The Bund leader.
    The Bund leader.
    The Polish nobleman.
    The Polish nobleman-- fantastic.
    I go with him.
    He is broken down, [INAUDIBLE] little Jew--
    different person completely.
    Well--
    He looked like a--
    Like a--
    Suddenly like a--
    Like a Jew.
    Like a Jew from the ghetto, as if he lived there all the time.
    Apparently, this was his nature.
    This was his world.
    But, excuse me, did he wear the David star, and you too?
    Did what?
    Did he wear the David star?
    Oh, yes.
    [INAUDIBLE] on this.
    Right.
    You too?
    Right.
    Only children did not wear it.
    Yes, but you had to wear it.
    Sure.
    Some movement starts.
    Jews are running from the street I was on.
    Bund leader-- follow me, follow me.
    Film.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Washington, Karski, (film slating)
    So now, apparently, she understood
    what was taking place.
    Follow me, follow me.
    Good luck, good luck.
    I never saw him again.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Washington, Karski, (film slating)
    OK, can you describe the meeting--
    how long it lasted, how did you seize it?
    Now-- now I go back.
    Washington, (film slating)
    Yes, it is a most--
    you are a unique witness because nobody was ever
    able to enter an extermination camp like Belzec
    and to come back alive.
    I understand there's some.
    There are no survivors of Belzec.
    There are or there are not?
    There are not
    There are a lot of them.
    No, there are not.
    Oh, there are not.
    There are no survivors of the Belzec extermination camp.
    600,000 Jews perished in Belzec in about eight months.
    And there are no survivors.
    It's not true what they say.
    There was one two years ago.
    He lived in Canada.
    He was 95 years old.
    And he was in Belzec for four months.
    At the time he went to Belzec, he was--
    he escaped in November.
    Well, a few days later, the contact
    was arranged with some Jews whom I didn't know, of course.
    We took a train to Belzec.
    From Russia.
    From Russia.
    It was a long trip.
    As far as I remember, four hours.
    Because Belzec is 150 kilometers south from Lublin.
    Yes, yes.
    Sobibor was north of Belzec.
    Yes.
    Which, by the way, will enter the picture.
    We come to Belzec.
    Of course, I didn't know what to expect.
    We went out of the station.
    First of all, over there I went disguised a little, name.
    They were using--
    Excuse me, you had no idea of what you would see.
    No.
    Well, I knew-- I heard about the Belzec.
    And you knew--
    Wait a second.
    What I heard, by the way, at that time, even
    from some Jewish people, that this
    is what was called at that time a transitional camp.
    What I understood after the war, at that time
    they were liquidating the camp as such.
    By November, there was no longer a camp.
    And now, whatever were the reasons,
    of course I don't know.
    Apparently, their last shipment, or the last--
    the remnants of the Jews were taken out of Belzec and either
    shipped to Sobibor, which became extermination camp,
    or Jews who were taken from the Warsaw or other ghettos,
    again for some reason, they would
    be shifted to Belzec for a short time
    and again go somewhere else.
    Yes, but you know at the beginning,
    Belzec was set to destroy, to kill
    the Jews who were living around Belzec, the Jews of--
    Yes.
    Yes.
    --of all this area.
    Only, my point--
    Not from the Warsaw ghetto.
    The Warsaw ghetto, that people were sent in Treblinka.
    Belzec was meant for the people of Kraków.
    The people of Kraków were sent to Belzec.
    I was not even aware of those details at that time.
    But do you know too that they called
    all these camps transitional camps, Sobibor too,
    Treblinka too.
    It was the name they gave.
    And even-- this is not specific, as a matter of fact.
    Well, over there I went--
    And Belzec started to be operational as a death
    camp in March 1942.
    Yes, yes, yes.
    Only at the moment I visited it, it became apparently
    truly transitional, which means the Jews were
    shifted somewhere.
    Now, the Germans announced that they are going to forced labor,
    that they are going to have good conditions.
    They said this to the Jews.
    To the Jews, yes, to the Jews.
    They wanted-- the Germans always--
    if they could avoid open trouble,
    they wanted to avoid it.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    So they wanted everything in as much order as,
    of course, humanly possible.
    Well, so then from the station we walked to the camp.
    No difficulty whatsoever.
    I had documentation.
    My guide had documentation.
    Tell me now, can you explain this precisely?
    You were disguised?
    Yes.
    I was an Estonian militiaman.
    Because the guns camps were guarded by Ukrainian--
    Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Polish policemen,
    and the regular German, Gestapo, SS men, et cetera.
    So those were mercenaries of the Germans.
    Yes.
    Of course, at that time, which is
    understandable, the Germans, even for this kind of work,
    they wanted to spare as much of their own men, to send them,
    I imagine, to fight or to work, not for this business.
    So they were using the others.
    What was the color of your uniform?
    Yellow with some sort of a belt, with boots, black cap,
    I remember.
    Indistinguishable otherwise.
    No sign that it was Estonian whatsoever.
    Documentation was that I was Estonian militiaman.
    Excuse me, the trip had been arranged
    by the Jewish underground?
    Yes, apparently.
    Or by the Polish underground?
    No, by the Jewish underground.
    All this part-- all this part--
    as a matter of fact, I didn't talk too much
    to the Poles who are still in Poland.
    But they knew that I established contact with them.
    They might want to stop me, not to endanger me.
    The Poles learned about it I -- only from the --
    [INAUDIBLE] this specifically on behalf of the Jews.
    Yes, yes.
    This was my Jewish chapter for this.
    So I followed their instructions.
    So by whom was it organized?
    I imagine by a Bund leader, because he
    initiated this matter.
    But he was not there.
    Some unknown Jewish fellows, whatsoever.
    So now, we walked and then we entered the camp.
    Now this camp now, totally different from the Warsaw
    ghetto.
    Mainly total confusion.
    Everything in movement.
    Excuse me, you say we walked-- who?
    You and who?
    A Jewish guide, but a guide whom I didn't know
    who established contact with me.
    Yes, but you didn't walk in the camp with this Jew, no?
    What did you say?
    You didn't walk inside the camp with this Jew?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes.
    You write that it was an Estonian.
    He had some sort of identification papers.
    And then I followed him.
    And he goes his way.
    I go his way, only I was following him.
    And he led me to some official.
    And I just showed this.
    Of course, counting I am an Estonian,
    I don't speak German whatsoever.
    And he went on some identification papers,
    whatever it was.
    I don't know, Judenrat, whatever it is.
    He entered as a civilian, only I was disguised.
    And then I entered the camp, both of us.
    And then I--
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    [INAUDIBLE]
    (film slating)
    Professor Karski, I must tell you
    that I understand very well how impossible what
    I am asking from you now.
    Because I ask you to describe the indescribable,
    and this mean to describe what was at this camp.
    And just-- I just want you to know that I
    know how difficult it is.
    t
    I understand.
    We enter the camp.
    As a matter of fact, that camp, at that point I entered it
    had no wall.
    Wire was around it.
    Barbed wires.
    Barbed wires.
    Were there walls in other parts, of course I don't know.
    I spent in that camp probably no more than 20, 25 minutes.
    Again, I couldn't take it, frankly.
    Now, the difference between this camp and the Jewish ghetto
    in Warsaw was that here some sort of total confusion,
    mainly that Jews, the population of it,
    they were going somewhere.
    Now, from-- as I saw it at that time,
    from the station railroad, as I understood it,
    there was some rail leading to the camp,
    rather primitively built--
    I could recognize it--
    with some sort of a platform.
    And then the train, which consisted of 40--
    some 40 cattle trucks.
    Cattle cars.
    Yes.
    The train facing the camp would move two or three cars
    and stop again.
    And at that time, from that gate I was standing and observing,
    now militiamen, Gestapo, Germans, [GERMAN],,
    directing them to the trucks.
    Excuse me, but before you had to cross the camp, before arriving
    to this place where you--
    Yes, I saw it from the camp.
    --where you were able to see the loading of the train.
    The loading-- the loading of that primitive rail.
    Yes, but before this, you crossed the camp.
    Can you describe how you crossed it?
    What you saw at the time when you crossed through this--
    I didn't go very deep in the camp.
    --through this crowd.
    Because the guide apparently, and the Estonian,
    they apparently wanted to show me this scene.
    Yes.
    And the train was facing at that particular gate.
    So we entered the gate.
    And then we stayed there observing what is happening.
    How long was it before--
    between the moment you entered the camp--
    you entered from another gate--
    and the moment you arrived at this point?
    It was a big camp or it was a--
    I entered through the same gate.
    Oh, you entered through the same gate.
    Through the same gate.
    I did not wander in the camp.
    I did not go deep into the camp.
    From the Belzec camp, my recollection
    was the shipment of the Jews from the camp
    to the trucks in the train.
    OK, describe this.
    And then the second thing, again I couldn't take it.
    You couldn't take--
    With that, I went physically sick.
    Why could you-- can you see why it was impossible to take it?
    The people were working here since--
    In this confusion, those shouts, [GERMAN],, pushing them
    through the platform to the tracks.
    Then the train would move two tracks away,
    putting them there.
    Now the room in the one track, I know
    it was for horses, something, 16 horses.
    And 40 men?
    Yes, yes, military truck.
    Well, at least 100-130.
    Excuse me, the people who were loaded in the freight cars,
    according to you they were waiting inside that camp
    since a long time?
    No, in the camp.
    From the camp--
    No, no, no.
    Please, I ask you one precise question.
    These people, these Jews, they were
    waiting inside the camp since a long time?
    How many days?
    How many hours?
    What only I saw, total confusion, which means they
    did not look like inhabitants.
    They looked, and I interpret it as some sort
    of transitional camp.
    They brought the Jews from somewhere
    and they are taking them somewhere.
    It did not look to me as inhabitable, regular--
    at this point I was standing--
    camp.
    It was total confusion.
    Shipment of the Jews to the trains.
    And now, what I understood at that time--
    well, what are they taking them?
    Again, they were apparently telling the Jews they take them
    for forced labor.
    And now, this horrible, horrible scene.
    Those shouts, despair, mother dragging their children.
    They enter the truck.
    They cannot reach them.
    They are too weak.
    They were pushed?
    Gestapo, militia.
    They were forced.
    They were beating them, pushing them like pigs, like they're
    not human, into this--
    more and more through the camp.
    And they were shooting with guns?
    Yeah.
    Yes, to terrorize them, but in the air mostly.
    The total hell, total hell.
    And now comes the story.
    The train moved a little, by two trucks, three trucks.
    On the floor there is a whitish powder.
    And now, I asked the Estonian militiamen, what is it?
    He says that's all right, that's all right,
    this is for their hygiene.
    This is quicklime.
    So when they die, there is no problem.
    They will not contaminate the [INAUDIBLE],,
    that's the [INAUDIBLE],, whatsoever.
    Then, well, they are getting what they are getting.
    They are getting what?
    They are getting what they are--
    they are receiving, so to say-- they are getting their share.
    And then, well, Himmler delivers his goods.
    He said publicly the Jews will die and they will die in agony.
    They will die.
    So where are they taking them?
    He says don't you worry, they will die.
    What I understood, then the train went somewhere.
    And they actually died in those trucks.
    Some of them were taken later, I learned, to Sobibor.
    And in Sobibor, they were finished.
    They were gassed?
    Yes.
    Why they didn't do it at that time in Belzec I don't know.
    Because they were doing this before in Belzec for months.
    They actually were gassing the Jews before.
    There were six gas chambers in Belzec.
    Yes.
    At that moment, and this is-- the date now is important.
    When later on, trying to investigate how it was, yes,
    apparently the end of October or November,
    the camp liquidated completely, with the last remnants
    of the Jews shifted to Sobibor.
    And secondly, at that last stage, Jews from other ghettos
    passed through Belzec being shifted somewhere else.
    Yes, but the quicklime in the wagons, it was to kill them?
    Yes, apparently.
    Hygienic purposes-- they were dirty, they were smelling.
    If they died, decomposition.
    And secondly, what I understand, to die in agony.
    They had to urinate.
    Then it would burn their feet, of course,
    if they were barefoot.
    But at the same time, yes, from the Nazi standpoint,
    it was to purify.
    Yes, but it was to kill them too.
    And to kill them.
    And make them die in agony, some sort of--
    well, indescribable.
    Washington, (film slating)
    Well, Professor Karski, I know that the Jewish underground
    organized for you, and it is a rather unbelievable visit
    inside the extermination camp of Belzec in November '42.
    I would like you to try to recall and to describe what
    you saw in this death camp.
    And as a matter of fact, this never happened.
    We have no testimonies whatsoever and no evidence
    of anybody being able to enter the extermination
    camp of Belzec, and the other camps too,
    Sobibor or Treblinka, and coming out alive.
    And this-- so this is something absolutely extraordinary
    and probably very difficult for you
    to remember and to describe, but please try.
    Well, evidently, the whole visit to Belzec
    was organized by the Jewish underground.
    Evidently they had the many means
    to organize this kind of a trip--
    evidently.
    I didn't know the details, how they did it.
    I entered the camp in company of an Estonian militiaman
    wearing a uniform of an Estonian militiaman
    and having some sort of ausweis that I was allowed
    to enter the camp and leave the camp, having shown the ausweis.
    Now, I approached the camp from Belzec
    where I got the uniform, guided by another genuine militiaman,
    who evidently was a scoundrel.
    In our conversation, as a matter of fact,
    he took me for a man who, as it was called
    at that time in Poland, that dealt with the Jews, which
    means through bribery, money, trying to save some--
    This was a usual traffic in Poland,
    this dealing with the Jews?
    Very well known.
    Of course, I had no dealings with this kind of people.
    So I don't know was it in many cases?
    Was it occasional?
    But the term dealing with the Jews
    meant, yes, they were trying to make some money.
    Blackmail in some cases, blackmailing the Jew
    in some cases.
    Denouncing the Jew in some cases.
    Helping a Jew to escape wherever he want in some cases.
    Selling him false passports, Arbeits, cards, whatever it is.
    It generally was called dealing with the Jews.
    Now, approaching the camp, half a mile, 1 kilometer,
    whatsoever, already I heard wild shouts, tumultuousness.
    I already realized I was approaching
    some unusual situation.
    Of course, I had experience.
    I was twice in the Warsaw ghetto.
    But excuse me, did you know when you went there
    that Belzec was a death camp?
    Yes, Bund leader told me that I will
    see something which I never saw, that I will never forget it.
    I'm going to see a death camp, actually a death camp.
    A Jewish ghetto was not a death camp.
    It was only degradation.
    It was the way to death.
    I am going to see a death camp now.
    And they say, I want you to see it
    and you will tell them later on.
    They will believe you.
    You saw it.
    Assuring me we would do everything possible,
    you will be safe.
    You will be safe.
    You will get over it.
    And we will get you out.
    Now, approaching that camp now, hearing those inhuman groans,
    shouts, shots, I approached a railroad,
    which seemed to me rather primitively built.
    It was not one of the main railroads.
    It was on my left.
    Now, the camp was on my right.
    The camp, there was no wall like in Warsaw,
    essentially barbed wire.
    I don't think it was electrified, but generally
    barbed wire.
    Now, the Estonian militiaman leads me.
    So on my right, I have the camp.
    On my left side I see the truck.
    Now, there were several so to say exits.
    Some of them primitive.
    Mainly barbed wire between two poles,
    it was it could be open, outside.
    But there was some main, apparently, entrance.
    The gate was solid gate, of course, posts solidly built.
    And then, of course, the continuation
    of the barbed wire.
    I enter the ghetto--
    the camp, not through the main gate,
    through one of those primitive entrances.
    And now, the militiaman, apparently he
    had instructions that I- for one reason or another,
    I want to see as much as possible
    what is going to happen.
    So then already within the camp, he directs me what he
    called good spot, which was--
    Did you ask him what was the meaning of these screamings,
    of these shoutings that you heard on the way?
    Oh, yes, on my way.
    Well, his answer was the Jews are hot.
    You will see it.
    Today, the Jews are hot.
    As a matter of fact, I remember he said something.
    There is a new batch which is going to be processed today.
    So now, he leads me to the area of the main gate.
    As a matter of fact, now he whispered to me, listen,
    I am going a little that away.
    If something happens, remember you don't know me,
    I don't know you.
    So at this point, I am alone.
    Now, from the main gate there was--
    the main gate at this point was open, again outside.
    I remember the gate consisted of two parts, open, outside.
    From the gate-- in front of that gate there was a train,
    cattle train.
    Now, I counted.
    46 trucks were there.
    46 wagons.
    Wagons, yes.
    I had no difficulty counting them
    because the train was moving.
    Now, there was this ramp, a platform
    from the gate leading to the train,
    almost directly to the train.
    Now, as you know, cattle train does not
    have steps, only on the high level.
    So it is not easy to enter the train.
    If you want to leave it, you have to jump, of course, down.
    And now, in that part of the camp,
    and I don't know how many, it must have been 5,000, 4,000,
    6,000, but this cannot be described.
    Not humanity.
    Crowd moving, some collective moving body.
    The Jews-- women, children, men, shouting,
    quarreling with each other, fighting against each other.
    Evidently hungry, evidently not knowing probably
    what is happening here.
    I specifically remember some Jew totally, completely naked.
    And somehow, again, standing.
    Why he was naked, I don't know.
    Perhaps, he threw his clothes.
    Perhaps the people took his clothes.
    Now, in this agony--
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Washington. (film slating)
    Now I understood my role.
    It was 35 years ago.
    At the time, I was stronger.
    I am--
    [CRYING]
    Please, stay, stay.
    Stay, stay.
    Just one second.
    Washington. (film slating)
    At the time I was stronger.
    I understood my mission.
    I was not supposed to have any feelings.
    And I was combat them.
    And I didn't have any feelings for some time.
    I didn't see humans.
    There was a crowd, out of reality.
    A crowd which had many heads, many legs, many arms,
    many eyes.
    But it was something like a collective--
    collective again, pulsating, moving, shouting body.
    I was observing this.
    From the back of this crowd, shots.
    Pushing them, the crowd with bats.
    Shouting, [SPEAKING GERMAN].
    Pushing them to the front, by the gate.
    Shots-- [SPEAKING GERMAN],, through the gate,
    to the platform.
    They were moving into the platform.
    Excuse me.
    It was very different from the Warsaw ghetto?
    It was a complete reserved scene?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes, Warsaw ghetto, there were humans.
    Misery, degradation, but they were living.
    These, at that point, were not humans.
    They did not live.
    They were moving.
    They were shouting.
    They were beating each other.
    They were scratching each other.
    By the gate, pushing them through the gate
    into the platform, on the ramp, towards the trucks.
    They had to climb.
    Well, probably 100, 120, 130, I don't know, into a truck.
    There was no room.
    So again, they were pushing by bats.
    Again shots to push them--
    push them into the trucks.
    Jews in the trucks, by the way, helping them.
    Then they did not want to help them anymore.
    So then the Jews who were on the ramp, raising their bodies,
    pushing them.
    They were on their heads, just into--
    into the trucks.
    Two trucks filled.
    The train moved.
    Empty two trucks.
    The same procedure.
    The Jews now realized that they have to fill,
    apparently, the whole truck.
    They didn't want to go.
    Those who were on the ramp now, they did not want to enter.
    They wanted to go back.
    But they couldn't, because the crowd was pushing them forward,
    the Jewish crowd.
    Because from the back, they were pushing them.
    They were shoving from the back.
    So it was something unbelievable.
    It was unbelievable.
    How long did I stay there, I don't know.
    And then I couldn't take it.
    It happened like-- then at a certain point,
    I saw humans, that they are humans.
    And I-- I went back in the direction of the same gate
    I entered.
    What do you mean?
    Suddenly, you realized yourself that they were--
    I didn't want to see them as humans.
    And I controlled myself.
    I don't know, 20 minutes, half an hour,
    whatever I stood there, I did not want to have any feelings.
    I did not have any feelings.
    I was just seeing something which I was supposed then
    to tell the people.
    Excuse me.
    Do you think that this--
    excuse me for my questions.
    Do you think that these people were
    waiting inside the camp for a long time already?
    I think, as it looked to me, that they
    might have been there for days.
    Starving?
    Starving.
    Apparently, no food.
    Well, I saw how they looked.
    Starving, hungry, insane.
    Men, eyes-- you saw eyes, their eyes.
    And then again, unlike--
    unlike the Jewish ghetto, they were actually
    fighting against each other.
    They were scratching.
    They were quarreling.
    They were swearing.
    This moving, moving-- some organism with legs, with eyes,
    with noses, whatsoever.
    I controlled myself.
    I realized again-- no feelings-- stay here, look,
    look, look, no feelings.
    And then after a certain time, yes,
    apparently, it came too deeply into me--
    humans.
    They are individuals here.
    And then I lost control.
    I realized, I don't know what I would do.
    I might jump at some Gestapo and start fighting him.
    I might go with the Jews to the train.
    I realized-- things got out of control with me.
    I go back in the direction of that gate.
    I entered.
    Now, the Estonian--
    And do you know what happened in the train?
    Now the train.
    I saw it because I was by the gate.
    When now empty the train moves, and then by the ramp,
    for a fraction of whatever it is time, the truck is empty.
    I see it.
    The floor covered with some white powder.
    What was this powder?
    Then I learned-- quicklime.
    Why quicklime?
    Now quicklime--
    Quicklime's a [INAUDIBLE].
    Jews who were pushed into the train,
    they were to die in there.
    But the Germans apparently wanted to avoid disease.
    That Jews evidently had to urinate, whatsoever.
    So again, for some sort of--
    this horrible hygienic was for medical reasons.
    There was a quicklime over there.
    The Jews were standing on the quicklime.
    And apparently they kept them until they died, when
    they moved the whole train.
    Then they had no disease.
    And the atmosphere, the environment
    was not diseased by the decomposed bodies.
    And there was less smell.
    There was less stench whatsoever.
    It was what they were trying to do [INAUDIBLE]..
    Well, so I go to the gate.
    The militiaman he understood something funny.
    He goes by me without any difficulty.
    We left the death camp.
    I go back to the store.
    And then I got sick.
    Was this a problem of Belzec?
    At the time you went to Belzec, they
    had stopped the gas chamber.
    There were six gas chambers in Belzec.
    Because they couldn't handle the corpses.
    The corpses were buried in the huge pits,
    which were dug in the sand.
    And we know that the pits were ballooning,
    and the corpses, liquid was running down.
    And it's one of the reasons why they stopped the gas
    chamber, the Belzec chamber.
    So now, in that camp--
    And so they killed them like this, in the train,
    with quicklime.
    Because they were already half burned.
    And it was easier for the--
    In this camp, it is evident.
    I saw only a fraction of the camp.
    From the gate I entered to the main gate,
    keeping as near as possible there, barbed wire.
    Now, what was inside, deeper in the camp, I never went there.
    Because I saw some barracks.
    I saw, a matter of fact, some solid, high--
    8 feet, whatsoever, fence.
    [NON-ENGLISH]
    Washington.
    (film slating)
    So then I left the camp.
    But, excuse me, did you see the loading of the 46 freight cars?
    I counted them, but I left before.
    But I had an opportunity because they were open.
    I did not stay to the end.
    So then I returned to the store.
    By the way, at the time, it was full day.
    The people were coming to the store.
    I entered the store.
    Of course, the owner knew me.
    And I just asked him, could I use your kitchen?
    Behind the store-- apparently, he
    was living there-- there was a kitchen with a sink.
    I was insane at that time.
    I was crazy.
    I entered the kitchen.
    And like, I don't know, self-preservation, animal,
    I actually disrobed myself.
    And I started to wash myself with the soap, everything.
    I was washing myself.
    I remember I was washing my shoes.
    I started to wash my shoes.
    So then I stayed there.
    So then the man entered.
    He was furious.
    What a mess you make here.
    So I said, all right, all right.
    Well, he understood it probably.
    So he took the uniform, took my clothes.
    Stay there.
    People were coming to the store.
    Then he came again.
    I just asked him one question.
    May I stay here overnight?
    I couldn't go to work, back.
    He says, sure, you can stay here overnight.
    I stayed there overnight.
    So you can-- was there a stench all over in the air?
    No.
    It didn't reach the store.
    The store was in Belzec in the town.
    But going there, was it half a mile?
    Was it one kilometer?
    Oh, yes, the stench was, when I approached the camp, when
    I was leaving the camp.
    Well, I stayed there overnight.
    But during the night, I was sick.
    And my problem was some sort of crazy vomiting.
    I vomited food.
    And I vomited some blood.
    It was crazy.
    I finished the night over there.
    Still, I stayed a few hours.
    Then the guy came, who brought me from Warsaw.
    Apparently, he stayed overnight somewhere
    in his own encampment.
    He took me back to Warsaw.
    This was my story.
    When you were meeting with Szmul Zygielbojm,
    did it take place a long time after you arrived in London?
    No.
    Well now, I arrived in London either by the end of November
    or the first days of December.
    1942.
    1942.
    And from the first, of course, moment, I began to report.
    I couldn't report to Sikorski.
    Sikorski was in the United States, by the way,
    at the time.
    The Deputy Prime Minister Mikolacjzyk,
    I began with Mikolacjzyk.
    Now my mission in London was difficult. What I considered,
    I was doing very well, because I understood my role.
    In London I was not, so to say, a human being.
    I was purely a camera.
    A recording machine.
    I carried messages from one political party
    to another, from one individual to another,
    from some political party to the Prime Minister only.
    Now those messages very often--
    And all this was purely--
    Purely memory, purely memory.
    I had good memory.
    Now those messages, and I knew it, sometimes
    were contradictory messages.
    Socialist Party would say, our vision of future Poland.
    This time the working classes will not
    allow themselves to be manipulated by another dictator
    like Pilsudski.
    We are strong.
    The working class will take government,
    and we are prepared for it.
    And we will do it.
    Peasant Party, giving messages to the peasant representatives.
    75% of the Poles are peasants.
    We feed this nation.
    We were never allowed to govern Poland.
    This time we are ready.
    When Poland emerges, Poland will have a Peasant government.
    And we will take the fate of the nation into our hands.
    Now so I understood this, that I was purely a recording machine.
    I was instructed and sworn in by every political party,
    by the delegate, by every individual, that I will not
    comment on their messages.
    I might answer the questions if they asked me,
    but on my initiative I was supposed
    to be only a tape recorder.
    And it must have been an horrible experience
    at [INAUDIBLE]
    I did very well.
    There was not a single complaint against me.
    I reported precisely, I had everything in my head.
    I reported correctly.
    There was never a single complaint.
    Eventually rumors started that emissary from Poland,
    yes eventually, told different things
    to different political leaders.
    But eventually, Prime Minister Sikorski took care of it.
    And one of the Council of Ministers,
    when problems started, just recently,
    we received information from Poland.
    One leader says, we received recently information
    from Poland of a different nature.
    General Sikorski eventually told me, Lieutenant, we
    have a problem with you.
    But I straightened it up.
    Because then I told them, you they
    do not receive information from Poland recently.
    You received messages from your own people to you.
    And be careful, keep it straight.
    Don't say that such is the situation.
    We don't know what that individual you have
    in mind, all of you, told you.
    He didn't know himself.
    Now at the time, I was firmly convinced this
    was within my structure.
    I was to go back to Poland again.
    So I was extremely careful.
    Precision, no comments, unless I was
    asked for some personal comments,
    whatsoever, I must do well.
    I wanted to go back to Poland again.
    I liked my new [? people, ?] this kind of work.
    I think I was successful with this.
    I got the highest military decoration, by the way,
    for my work.
    So now the first days.
    Of course, I reported the first I remember.
    I have a message to the President of the Republic.
    What do you have?
    Well, let the President of the Republic
    pass the information to the government, where
    my instructions were to the President of the Republic.
    And I recognize all of this.
    I had no difficulties.
    Well now, one of the first contacts--
    it must have been two, three, four days
    after I began to circulate.
    Well I was instructed.
    Now you have messages.
    The Jewish leaders.
    Who, who are the leaders?
    I said, three individuals.
    Szmul Zygielbojm, Dr. Schwarzbald Dr. Leon Grossfeld.
    All right, Zygielbojm was the first.
    As a matter of fact, I remembered
    that the message which I carry was
    given to me in a joint session, Zionist leader and Bund leader.
    Could I see both of them together?
    Yes, it was the organized.
    Schwarzbald did not show up for one reason or another.
    I saw him for meeting with Zygielbojm.
    Zygielbojm is alone.
    Zygielbojm.
    I saw him in the government office, Stratton House.
    Stop, stop, Stop.
    (film slating)
    (rolling)
    Washington [? Kafkiva. ?] (film slating)
    The Stratton House was one of the main governmental offices.
    When I entered the room, with my mission,
    what was also very important is to, so of say, to size up men.
    I saw Zygielbojm, a man--
    with this kind of man I had no dealings, frankly, very much.
    Either in my underground activities, or before the war.
    Before the war I entered Polish diplomatic service.
    Zygielbojm, first, in every respect, his face,
    the way he walked, his gestures, his language,
    typically Proletarian.
    He could be an unskilled worker.
    I didn't know this kind of people--
    Really?
    --in my life in Poland.
    Next, very Jewish.
    His Polish was not literary Polish.
    Like that Bund leader in Warsaw spoke
    beautiful Polish, literary language.
    Zygielbojm I had before me the Proletarian.
    So I was careful.
    Did he have a Yiddish accent when he spoke Polish?
    Yes.
    Yes?
    Yes.
    And he looked very Jewish.
    He looked Jewish, yes.
    And the face, you know.
    All this.
    Nothing refined about Zygielbojm.
    How was the look?
    Rather smallish, not tall at all.
    Not fat, physically.
    Nervous, or agitated.
    Very nervous?
    Well at the beginning, no.
    But then during the conversation, oh, yes.
    As a matter of fact, most of the time, he was pacing the floor.
    When I spoke about the ghetto and about Belzec,
    as a matter of fact, on numerous occasions, I would stop.
    Say, why don't you talk?
    Talk.
    You came here to talk, so talk.
    From the very beginning, we didn't start off well.
    I entered the room, he got up, we shook hands.
    And he asked me, in a rather sarcastic way, Mr Emissary,
    I was told you want to see me.
    What do you want?
    I answered, Mr Zygielbojm, I don't want anything.
    I have messages, and I am supposed to give you messages.
    They concern the Jewish matters in Poland.
    And I am going to see Dr. Schwarzbald
    and I'm going to see Dr. Grossfeld.
    Says, Jewish messages?
    So who sent you here?
    I had a meeting with Bund leader and Zionist leader.
    They introduced themselves in this.
    He looked at me, well, you don't look Jewish to me.
    They sent messages?
    Are you Jewish?
    No, I am not Jewish.
    All right, so what?
    Now, I gave him the messages one after another,
    as I described previously.
    Gave him all the requests.
    All the requests, yes.
    He interrupted me several times.
    But I know all of this, I know all of this.
    At that moment, I didn't realize he did know through the radio,
    through dispatches, et cetera.
    He was not impressed.
    Not impressed.
    Not impressed.
    But I know all of this.
    So then I say, well, the Jewish leaders
    organized for me to visit in the ghetto, one
    visit in the Belzec camp.
    And my instructions are to report on this, particularly
    to the Jewish leaders.
    Says, oh, Jewish ghetto?
    Belzec?
    How did you get there?
    He said, ghetto?
    It'd be Warsaw ghetto, and then Belzec.
    Yes, but he said, Jewish ghetto?
    Belzec?
    No, no.
    Jewish ghetto in Warsaw, and then Belzec, Camp Belzec.
    And he says, well, you were there?
    How was it organized?
    Who organized for you?
    I told how actually it was organized.
    And now I give him the material.
    You give him the--
    Information, what I saw.
    At that time, I was doing well.
    I was a machine.
    I just reported very often with closed eyes.
    I didn't, sometimes, want to see to whom I was reporting.
    You didn't want to see.
    What?
    You didn't want to see the people you were reporting.
    Sometimes, yes, I didn't want to see.
    I was closed eyes and I was just--
    I was conditioned very well.
    It was not my first mission, as you
    know, from my curriculum, war activities.
    Now with Zygielbojm, when I began to describe this,
    he got up, and he paces the room.
    Walks.
    Most of the time, now he paces the room.
    Sometimes, I would stop.
    Why did you stop?
    Talk, this is why you are for here.
    All right.
    I controlled myself very well.
    Then he started to ask me questions.
    I describe Jewish ghetto, and those children, and the Jews,
    and the dying Jew.
    Did you talk to any of them?
    I said this was not my business.
    I didn't talk to any of them.
    Why didn't you talk to them?
    Are you not interested what, how they felt about it?
    It was altogether rather something like a challenge,
    you know, against me.
    He was aggressive.
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes, and rather unfriendly.
    I said, Mr. Zygielbojm, this was not my mission.
    I talked to the representative of the Bund, the representative
    of the Zionists in Poland, not to the Jews in the ghetto.
    I was not interested in talking to them.
    This was not within my instructions.
    Are you interested so much in the Jewish problem?
    I said, I don't know, Mr. Zygielbojm.
    I am, now I don't know in what I am interested.
    I lost myself.
    I'm not interested in anything.
    I was sent here to report.
    At a certain point, I got upset.
    Mr. Zygielbojm, you have no right
    to ask me these kind of questions.
    You want to listen to my report, listen to my report.
    If you want, I will go on with it.
    All right, so talk, so talk.
    Talk, man.
    Talk, man.
    He called me in most instances, Mr. Emissary, Mr. Emissary.
    But rather sarcastically, Mr. Emissary.
    Now talking about, again, ghetto in Warsaw, camp in Belzec.
    Did he ask many questions about Belzec?
    No, he was walking.
    Did he seem to be--
    And then I saw him, something like disintegrating.
    Apparently this he didn't see himself, what I saw.
    So then he started to ask me questions.
    Some of his question.
    How did you feel about it?
    My answer was, I had no feelings.
    I'm not interested in my feelings.
    And again, I would interrupt him.
    Mr. Zygielbojm, you have no business
    of asking me those questions.
    Do you want to listen to my report?
    All right, talk, man.
    Talk, talk.
    Walking, like.
    A little like, mad.
    Nervous, mad.
    Nervous.
    Disintegrating almost, minute after minute.
    But he sits down.
    He gets up.
    Well then becomes the point, after ghetto and Belzec.
    Before, he interrupted me several times.
    I know all of this, I know all of this.
    So then he says.
    (film slating)
    (film slating)
    At a certain point, he sits behind the table
    as a matter of where he was.
    I am on the other side of the table sitting as well.
    He is in front of me.
    And then like with hatred, frustration
    after I gave him all the material.
    Then he says so what can I do.
    So what can I do what I am not doing?
    I do everything.
    I did everything what is possible,
    so what they want me to do?
    What can I do?
    So then I also have anger that time.
    Then I gave it away, close my eyes.
    Jews are dying.
    There will be no Jews.
    What is use having Jewish leaders?
    Let the Jews go to the most important offices,
    Allied offices.
    Let them demand.
    If they are refused, let them go out.
    Let them stay outside.
    Let them refuse drinks.
    Let them refuse food.
    Let them die.
    Let them die slow death.
    Let humanity see it.
    Perhaps it will move humanity.
    And then he jumps.
    Madness, madness, madness, they are mad.
    They are mad.
    The whole world is mad.
    The madness, madness.
    They are crazy.
    They don't understand anything.
    They will not let me die.
    They will send two policemen.
    They will arrest me.
    They will take me to an asylum.
    They will feed me artificially.
    This is madness, madness.
    They are mad.
    Everybody's mad.
    So I have to do something.
    But I don't know what.
    So what can I do?
    I have to do it, but I don't know what.
    So what to do?
    Pacing.
    Madness, madness.
    This is a mad world.
    I have to do.
    I don't know what to do.
    So what do I do?
    I was sitting here.
    Just there.
    Then he sat down.
    Then he began-- became somehow more rational as if more
    friendly.
    Yes, he is then-- he did begin to ask me questions.
    How am I doing?
    Is it very difficult?
    Personal questions.
    He knew about my previous missions.
    Is it difficult on me.
    Rather more friendly.
    Then I left.
    Did you think that --
    That he was in a--
    already in complete desperation.
    No, this is the point.
    For a moment, I did not have any doubt.
    He is not mad.
    He is totally normal.
    I did not detect any kind of what today we call the--
    call psychiatry calls --
    He was a leader.
    Only he was lost in helplessness.
    Helplessness?
    Helplessness.
    And apparently with my now report, this showed up.
    He looked to me almost hateful towards everybody--
    the Polish government, the Allies, the world.
    It was this total helplessness, which he couldn't take.
    He couldn't control himself.
    Then, of course, I knew.
    Everybody knew about Zygielbojm He was a prominent leader.
    He was a member of the council et cetera.
    He was a genuine leader doing his best.
    Only in that particular conversation,
    somehow we didn't establish common grounds.
    He was the only man I reported.
    It was a long conversation?
    Yes.
    It must have been long.
    As a matter of fact, I was embarrassed.
    He was keeping me then.
    He said that-- he said I know everything
    and he was keeping you.
    After his break so then again he said and then started
    to ask me personal questions, sympathetic.
    And then questions you know about Poland,
    about how Bund leader looked, how Zionists--
    they look undernourished, those human questions.
    And then the conversation was long.
    What I don't mention by the way in my book--
    and it may sound cynical.
    Remember at that time, I was a machine.
    In the second part of my meeting,
    I was thinking only about one thing--
    if he keeps me longer, I am going
    to be late for my next appointment.
    At that time, all my life consisted from one contact
    to another, from one man to another--
    eating, sleeping, reporting, if possible coming on time
    to the meeting.
    All people I was reporting were very important people.
    And I was an insignificant little man.
    My mission was important.
    So I kept myself under control.
    And this perhaps, it shows that at that time I was in a way
    morally corrupted because with my previous record,
    I took it so to say for granted.
    Whomever I saw, everybody was showing
    me respect or admiration.
    Everybody was complimenting me.
    Second poem, whatever I said.
    A few minutes ago, it was like he didn't want to show it.
    He would-- he was suspicious.
    And do you think that the demands you ask from him--
    the demands for the Jews in Poland--
    have had influence on his suicide,
    which he committed six months later as a matter of fact.
    No.
    Exactly six months.
    He committed suicide on the May 11, 1943.
    This was just a few days after the Warsaw ghetto
    totally destroyed as a result of the genuine Jewish declaration
    of war against Germany.
    Then only a few days later, he committed suicide.
    He left a letter.
    I have, of course, the text of his letter.
    The letter addressed to the president
    of the Polish Republic.
    In this letter he reproached the Polish government,
    the Allied governments--
    [DOG BARKING]
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    [DOG BARKING]
    (film slating)
    Do you think that as a request you made to him from the Jews
    in Poland are the direct influence
    on his suicide, which he committed exactly six months
    later?
    I don't know.
    I prefer to think not.
    What can I tell you?
    But I think yes--
    It is not a very comfortable idea to live with--
    as you mentioned and I mentioned in my book-- oh, yes,
    I think about it.
    But I defended myself as much as I can.
    But I will tell you about Zygielbojm
    Of course, I cannot escape it that often I have to think
    about what happened to the Jews during the Second World War.
    And it may be a result of still self-discipline and still
    emotional self-defense.
    In my memories, even when I teach my classes
    and I have to touch the war situation in Eastern Europe,
    I don't go back to my memories of the Jewish ghetto,
    or of Belzec.
    I don't speak about it.
    You avoid it?
    I avoid it.
    When I teach, when I speak, when I discuss,
    when I think myself as you can imagine for a year,
    I had nightmares, and I disciplined myself.
    The Jewish problem during the Second World War in my mind is
    the death of Zygielbojm , death of the Zygielbojm .
    This is what shows, this total helplessness,
    indifference of the world, indifference of the world,
    and the Jews perishing.
    And that Jews perished, and you have a Jewish leader.
    His name is Zygielbojm.
    And he says I am a leader, Jewish leader.
    There are no more Jews.
    I go with them.
    They don't need leaders.
    The death of a Zygielbojm for me shows more than anything
    else Jewish tragedy of the Second World War.
    About him I speak.
    You forced me into this interview
    about the ghetto and Belzec.
    I don't go there.
    When I have free will, I do go to Zygielbojm.
    I didn't have one single class in 20 years
    of teaching the course governments
    and politics of Eastern Europe.
    When I come to the war situation,
    I did not tell my students there was Zygielbojm.
    Well--
    You remember his last letter?
    Oh, yes.
    The letter was friendly as a matter of fact,
    written in a rather matter of fact way.
    No violent recriminations, very measured style.
    It was addressed to the president
    of the Polish Republic but also to the Allied governments
    and the public opinion of the world
    stating what I said, that Jews perished.
    You will go with him--
    with them.
    And then he hopes that perhaps his death will arouse
    the consciousness of the world.
    Oh, I know his letter.
    Then he finished the letter in a very humane way.
    Goodbye, friends.
    I wish you success.
    Goodbye.
    Signed Szmul Zygielbojm.
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    And this was after the end of the--
    A few days after the end of the ghetto, the Jewish war
    against the Third Reich.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    Well.
    Professor Karski, you know that the subject of this film
    is the destruction of the European Jews, the Holocaust.
    I would like to know among all the official political leaders
    to whom you delivered your report.
    Did you have the chance to mention specifically
    the Jewish problem, the destruction of the Jews?
    I am sure that you had a lot of other things to report to them?
    But because the subject of this film
    is the one I've just named now, I
    would like to know what were the possibilities for you to talk
    about this and who was interested.
    How was [INAUDIBLE]?
    I understand.
    How was the reaction?
    So now I understand the subject of this film that you
    are making, you hope it will be shown eventually,
    probably the second part.
    You want to have testimonies, interviews
    for historical records or saved for some archives.
    So I understand it.
    I must be very precise.
    And now I am asking you to bear with me and to understanding
    my possibilities and my mission in the so-called Western free
    world dealing with the Polish government
    leaders, political leaders, Polish Jewish leaders.
    Because of the nature of my mission,
    I traveled several times.
    Because within the statute of my mission was I
    was going back to Poland.
    I was a very important man.
    I was a hero.
    Everything was at my disposal.
    I met the most important men.
    They catered to me.
    I could-- to whomever I spoke, I could tell them
    I didn't finish.
    I have more to say.
    On many occasions, I was-- had such a situation
    with the General Sikorski whom I saw at least five times.
    General, I didn't finish yet.
    He would say, lieutenant, my secretary
    will inform you when I will be free for you.
    So with the Polish side of my mission,
    I had the great possibilities to report.
    And I did report.
    Now you are asking the second part of my report.
    We have to make a distinction with the English or American.
    Certain political leaders like Jewish leaders--
    oh, yes, they listen to me.
    They let me report.
    With those great intellectual leaders--
    poets, writers, et cetera--
    well, frankly, I felt free, and I would say press myself.
    Still there is more.
    Still I want you to know more.
    HG Wells say, Koestler this kind of people.
    Now speaking about government leaders
    in Great Britain and the United States, I met all of them
    as a result of the Polish government,
    usually prime minister's request.
    Mr. Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
    I wish that you receive a most recent agent from Poland
    who has material of interest to his majesty government.
    So you surmise--
    [AUDIO OUT]
    (film slating)
    I don't remember where did we--
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    Yes.
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    Now even at that time, I had suspicions having
    met some of those leaders.
    And whomever I met, I speak only about the government leaders.
    They were the most important people
    both in the United States and in Great Britain.
    Sometimes I couldn't avoid the suspicion.
    Altogether they show me as a matter of courtesy.
    As a matter of--
    Of courtesy.
    In London, the prime minister asked
    them to see some recently arrived agent
    from the Polish underground and his report.
    It might be of interest to his majesty government
    or to that particular minister or a government leader.
    In the United States, it was the ambassador, of course.
    Everything was in his hands.
    Now you must realize at that time,
    I was not allowed to have any contacts.
    I had to report to the proper offices.
    Every man I met, I was free to go to a theater,
    to a nightclub, to dinner.
    I had plenty of money, of course,
    to buy myself new clothes whatsoever.
    I could not have contacts on my own initiative,
    only as instructed.
    You are going to see such and such a leader.
    The same in the United States, of course.
    I lived in the embassy.
    I was not allowed to live in any--
    to take any hotel.
    I lived all the time on the premises.
    And how did it happen with Roosevelt?
    With President Roosevelt.
    I must-- well, Polish ambassador in Washington
    was informed about my existence in London.
    Before coming to London, I didn't expect
    to go to the United States.
    Now it was the Polish ambassador who
    in his report to the prime minister suggested.
    He thinks that it may be useful if before returning to Poland,
    Karski will come secretly to the United States.
    The ambassador is pretty sure he will get him
    in touch with the key members of the government
    and the proper people.
    He hopes the president himself will
    be interested in his report.
    Once we received this report, General Sikorski
    tells me, lieutenant, you go to Washington
    before you go to Poland.
    I arrived to Washington.
    Ambassador Ciechanowski already totally acquainted
    with my material.
    I stay at the embassy.
    As you can imagine, every morning,
    every evening, we talk about what happened in Poland.
    The most by the way intimate talks were there
    was a ritual in the evening, after dinner,
    before going to bed, the ambassador
    would walk his dog, [INAUDIBLE].
    I would walk the ambassador.
    He always invited me.
    Johnny, come with me.
    Then we would, again, the most intimate.
    Even Madame Ciechanowska she may see this film.
    She lives now in Belgium.
    Even she was not present and then some time his worries
    and his fears and all this.
    At a certain point, he tells me, Johnny, listen.
    The President of the United States wishes to see you.
    Now he believes as a matter of fact,
    all the time he was criticizing me on one point,
    mainly, Johnny, you are inclined--
    you talk too much.
    You must acquire precision-- you have precision-- to be concise.
    You realize people I am going to introduce you,
    they are the most powerful people.
    Poland is my inner concern for them.
    They have the whole war.
    They waged this war.
    So be careful.
    Concise, precision, concentrate rather on their questions.
    Try to answer their questions.
    President comes.
    He gives me the same briefing.
    Now you be careful.
    You are going to see the most powerful men on this globe.
    This man evidently is busy.
    He thinks in terms of the war of humanity.
    Roosevelt had this inclination, which Ambassador Ciechanowski
    instructed.
    We have a president.
    He thinks in terms.
    He thinks after this war the human race
    will be organized in such a way no more wars,
    and he will play the key role in this arrangement.
    So I get be brief, very concise.
    I am not going to take part in the conversation.
    I will go with you as required by diplomatic protocol.
    I have to certify your veracity, introduce you to the president.
    Then I will sit quiet.
    So don't rely on me.
    I will be unable to help you in any way.
    It may be that the president will ask me a question,
    then I will answer his question.
    So I don't know how the conversation will develop.
    I don't know how long he will stay with the president.
    Only you are on your own and now be wise.
    With this kind of briefing, [INAUDIBLE] whatsoever
    brings us to the White House.
    Ambassador punctual, president punctual.
    Secretary leads me to his office.
    I see Roosevelt.
    He looked like a world leader.
    Like a world leader?
    World leader, yes.
    As a matter of fact, he struck me
    he was more than the President of the United States.
    His formulations, his gestures.
    He did consider himself a world leader.
    He sits behind the desk, behind him, of course,
    all American flags, very impressive ,
    the whole wall covered by them, very high chair,
    Grand Seigneur.
    Because I was warned he will not get up
    when he would shake your hand.
    He's crippled.
    Shakes hand.
    Please sit down, Mr. Ambassador.
    He says, Mr. Karski, I know about you.
    I have been informed about your great work contribution
    to the Allied cause.
    I am sure that you would like me to be informed
    about things in Poland please.
    Now realize this.
    I heard it throughout my entire mission.
    For me, the Jewish problem was not that the only problem.
    For me, the key problem was Poland.
    Curzon line.
    Soviet demands, communists in the underground movement,
    fear of the Polish nation.
    What is going to happen to Poland?
    This was the emphasis.
    Of your mission?
    Yes, of my mission, of course, and my concern naturally
    I speak to the president in those terms--
    expectations, fears among the leaders.
    All hope Mr. President has been place
    by the Polish nation in the hands of Franklin Delano
    Roosevelt.
    He said this?
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    In proper words?
    Oh, yes, in the same words.
    Not the president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt he says.
    I describe thinking how much time I had.
    He says then I come to the Jewish problem, Mr. President.
    I have also a mission on behalf of the Polish Jews.
    Oh, yes.
    (film slating)
    [CLICK]
    Mr. President, before having left Poland
    I was charged with this mission by the most important
    Jewish leaders.
    They organized for me two visits in the ghetto.
    I saw extermination camp.
    The name is Belzec.
    B-E-L-Z-E-C.
    Mr. President, the situation is horrible.
    The point is, without the outside help,
    the Jews will perish in Poland.
    The end.
    I remember every second of this conversation.
    The Allied Nations--
    Excuse me.
    What did he answer, specifically?
    Nothing.
    He enters the picture now.
    Nothing.
    This was the end of your report?
    Yes.
    Nothing.
    It came at the end of the Jewish--
    I never had the chance.
    So now, his answer.
    The Allied Nations are going to win this war!
    No more wars!
    Justice will be done!
    Your country will be alive again, and more
    prosperous than before.
    Criminals will be punished.
    The United States will not abandon your country,
    as a matter of fact.
    Now he says, Poland, as re-compensation,
    will receive East Prussia, or a part of East Prussia.
    No more corridor!
    And now, to the Ambassador.
    Mr. Ambassador, what do you think about it?
    Of course, Mr. Ambassador loves it,
    only he wants all of East Prussia, [LAUGHS]
    not part of East Prussia.
    Short conversation about that.
    Then when you return to Poland, you
    will tell your Polish leaders, this country
    will never fail them.
    They have a friend in the President of the United States.
    And now he does ask me questions.
    Oh, yes.
    Underground movement.
    Do you know what question he asked me?
    Do I understand correctly, young man, that before the war
    Poland was essentially an agricultural country?
    Yes, Mr. President, it was so.
    Well, now, what we understand in the Russian campaign,
    Germans had to use tremendous amount of horses.
    Did they take those horses from Poland?
    Because with your agricultural economy, you need horses.
    Mr. President, yes.
    He asked me other questions also.
    About--
    I had no chance, except my initial statement,
    to tell you Mr. President, listen to me.
    Well, you don't speak to the President of the United States.
    No Jewish problem was mentioned until the end
    of the conversation, which lasted one hour 20 minutes.
    But excuse me to insist, but it is my theme.
    About the Jews, did ask specific questions?
    No.
    Not one?
    No.
    Not a single one.
    Not a single one?
    Not a single one.
    How do you--
    What I said, I said only on my initiative.
    As an opening statement, when he asked me,
    I presume you want to pass certain information.
    Bring attention.
    You gave everything on the Jew that are in--
    General terms I told again to him.
    But he didn't ask one specific question--
    Not a single one.
    And how do you explain this?
    I don't.
    He did make a gesture.
    Now, what was the significance of this gesture?
    Was it a gesture, or was it an expression
    of good will of the center of power, who does not
    deal with particular problems?
    I don't know until today.
    His minor [INAUDIBLE].
    Wiser people than I could not decipher FDR.
    [LAUGHS] He was a great man, mainly.
    After we left the White House, and then of course,
    as you can imagine, we'll return to the embassy,
    and the ambassador gives me one typist.
    He goes to another room, another typist, and his instructions.
    Now, you write your report, I write my report.
    And Johnny, be careful.
    Everything counted.
    If you noticed his smile, put it in the report.
    We just saw the center of power of humanity.
    And then we will compare our both.
    Report I have to send the report to London, of course.
    Yes.
    Then.
    So we cooked up whatever it was.
    Then comes problem.
    I think it was next day.
    Very soon.
    It might be even the same evening, as a matter of fact.
    He sees me, the ambassador, and says,
    well, Johnny now,