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Andre Steiner

Film | Digitized | Accession Number: 1996.166 | RG Number: RG-60.5010 | Film ID: 3414, 3415, 3416, 3417, 3418, 3419

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    Andre Steiner
    Transcript
    (film slating)
    [FRENCH]
    Well, let's start a little bit to talk about yourself,
    about your background.
    You were from an assimilated Jewish family.
    That's right.
    And did you-- did you grow this beard out of religious reasons,
    no?
    Here, no, not religious reasons, no.
    Only just for fun.
    Yes?
    OK.
    Can you tell me a little about yourself, about your family?
    My -- back from Czechoslovakia.
    Yes.
    I came from, in Czechoslovakia, by--
    I don't know whether you-- what are you
    interested, really, from my birth?
    Or only just after that.
    No, no, not your birth.
    That's it.
    That's better.
    So that maybe the interesting thing
    is for you only my life in Brno.
    Because there where the whole starting
    of the Holocaust and the German occupation started.
    Yes.
    And I was an architect in Brno and built quite a few homes
    for Jewish clients.
    And my first encounter with the Germans
    was in connection with my buildings.
    And basically, that saved my life.
    Because the consul general from Belgium,
    Mr. Hecht was building apartment houses.
    And I was the architect for it.
    And he put the money for the paying of the different bills--
    he put on escrow.
    And only I had the right to sign the bills and the checks
    for payments.
    And because my father-in-law, who
    was in the Jewish Agency, one of the leading
    men in the Jewish Agency in Czechoslovakia--
    while that time in London, he came and took me
    into the prison.
    That was my first time that I was in prison there.
    Who took you into the prison?
    The Germans.
    Oh, the Germans.
    The Germans, yeah.
    Because they came to ask me where my father-in-law is,
    what we are doing.
    And I'm pretty sure we have money here hidden
    and so and so.
    A lot of parts of the German department from the Gestapo
    suddenly asked to release for me.
    Because the home, and they could not
    be paid without my signature.
    So I was one of the few people there that,
    instead of going to the [GERMAN],, from where,
    [GERMAN] was deportation in some -- so to Poland over that time.
    There, they took me out from the prison.
    But this was when?
    This was in?
    That was in '39.
    Ah, it was in '39?
    In '39.
    After the occupation.
    After the occupation, after Czech occupation.
    And the leader of this department
    who was in charge about the buildings
    told me very frankly that I should immediately after I
    pay the last bill--
    because I had a Slovak passport, not a Czech passport.
    He told me that I should immediately be prepared.
    And the very moment I pay my last bill for that house,
    to get out from Brno.
    Because the Gestapo had already planned that the very moment
    everything is finished and planned and paid,
    they are going to come and pick me up,
    and then I go back again to the prison.
    Prison, yes.
    Now, and that was my first encounter with a German
    was basically.
    And I didn't understand why did he help me.
    And didn't really ask him.
    And he said, certain things we have to do
    and certain we can do.
    So I want to show my humanity, that I give the last chance
    to get out from here.
    And to [INAUDIBLE],, I really immediately went
    with my family, with my wife and my son to the railroad.
    And sent the last check for this house
    from the railroad station and the same time we already
    went to Bratislava.
    That is how I came to Bratislava.
    And a few days later, we received a letter
    from my mother-in-law, who stayed still
    in Brno, that the Gestapo was coming and then asking for me.
    To search you?
    To search me.
    But I was already in Bratislava.
    How old were you at the time?
    Pardon?
    How old were you at the time?
    I was, I think it was, 30 years old.
    So then you were already a well-known architect?
    That's right.
    Yes?
    Yeah.
    But after I came back to Bratislava,
    I think I told you that I was editing an art magazine.
    And my friend with whom I edited this art magazine was
    in Bratislava, architect Szonyi After I came back,
    I spent a year in his office, and working with him,
    and editing this newspaper, too, called Forum.
    And in 1940, and in '41, the time that UZ was established--
    UZ was the Judenrat.
    The Judenrat.
    Well, what is the name in Czech?
    But the time that I came was not yet.
    But the Judenrat was established in Slovakia, I think,
    in '40 and '41.
    Yes.
    And that time, I was asked to come and join
    them and work there in the [GERMAN] as an architect.
    So that is why-- that is basically the short story how I
    came in connection from Brno to Bratislava,
    and from Bratislava--
    and being an architect, suddenly being in the UZ,
    that was the Judenrat in Bratislava.
    What is the name in Czech or in Slovak of the UZ?
    Ústredňa Židov
    Ústredňa Židov.
    Which means exactly?
    The Jewish Center.
    Jewish Center.
    So center of the Jews.
    Yes.
    And you enter the Judenrat immediately?
    I didn't understand.
    No, I didn't enter Judenrat.
    I entered this special department, the so-called
    [GERMAN].
    And through this [GERMAN],, I came in contact
    with the state resource places.
    And started out to [INAUDIBLE].
    And I was, for quite a few years, the architect
    and planner for the state resort places.
    State resort?
    Yeah, State resort places.
    And why I mention it to you?
    Because that was very important for the establishing
    of the work camps, and getting jobs for the work camps, which
    I was in charge of.
    That was my first activity in the Judenrat.
    I don't understand very well.
    Why was the [GERMAN],, let's say, a building [GERMAN]
    in the Judenrat?
    Why did they need this?
    Because in '41, they had started to do
    the concentration of the Jews.
    And concentration-- for the concentration
    there, they selected three places.
    Sered.
    Sered, Novaky, and Vyhne.
    Yes.
    And it was necessary now to build it up.
    Because partly, there was--
    in Vyhne, they had there facilities already.
    But in Sered and Novaky, there was only just
    very primitive facilities.
    And they asked me to go out to them with Dr. Koso and Pecuch,
    who were the leaders in this whole project
    on the Slovak side, to look at these places
    and look into it what type of building remodeling
    is necessary there.
    And that was how I came in connection with the UZ, too,
    and first with the Slovak people who led this whole--
    Who were in charge, yes.
    Yes, that's right.
    But what kind of buildings did you build in the camps?
    Because there were concentration camps.
    It was a concentration camp.
    But that time, we didn't know, really,
    what kind of concentration camp it's going to be.
    We just knew that some of the--
    you know that in every time where
    Germans came, or the Germans occupied, or Germans
    had influence, the first thing was that they made--
    took the Jews out from the economic life.
    Yes
    And now, the question was what should
    be done with those who have been taken from economic life?
    And firstly, we had been told that they
    will go into these camps.
    We had no idea that it was a concentration for deportation.
    We thought that is concentration for work.
    Yes.
    And that's why--
    I don't know whether you even know about those things.
    That time, Shlomo Gross, who was mentioned very often
    and representative of the Orthodoxy was with Dr. Koso.
    And Shlomo Gross basically asked me.
    And he gave me the authorization to go out and be
    helpful to build out these camps.
    And by having this connection, that why I want to mention it.
    Because in the whole fight against deportations,
    later on, the working camps had been a very important role.
    Because I proposed to the Slovaks--
    instead of deportation, why don't you
    leave everybody of the Jews who are working
    in this Slovak working camp.
    And that time, we knew it is better
    to stay in Slovakia like to go anyplace,
    whether it was Poland or Germany, any place as well.
    And it was my idea and tried to-- and I think that they
    already had been finding out that those who worked there had
    been--
    in Slovak, they used to say it vynimky the exceptions.
    And it was agreed upon with Dr. Koso
    who was one of the most important Slovak politicians
    immediately after the minister president.
    After Tiso.
    Dr. Tiso was president.
    And Tuka to next the president.
    Ah, Tuka was the prime minister, yes.
    And Dr. Koso was his so-called chef of the Presidium.
    But he was one of the most important and most influential
    Slovak politicians.
    And Dr. Shlomo Gross had contact with him.
    And Shlomo Gross was in charge about this building up the--
    organizing concentration camps.
    And this is how I came working with Shlomo
    Gross in the beginning, and putting some not only the--
    (film slating)
    [FRENCH]
    [FRENCH]
    Should I now?
    Yes, I'll let you go.
    Now, I would very much like to say a few words
    about the Slovak working camps.
    Because my discussion with Dr. Koso and Pecuch
    who had been below Dr. Koso But he
    was really in charge about the day-to-day activities
    of the camp and to prepare it.
    I convinced them that they should
    let us parallel with the concentration for deportation.
    They should let us do a concentration for work.
    And all those who will go in in the so-called working
    part of it, they are going to be exempt from deportation.
    And Dr. Koso was willing to do it.
    And after that promise came from him,
    then we started to organize part of the work camps for--
    and really work camps, not for concentration camps.
    And the understanding between us and the Slovaks
    was that they must, in a period of three months,
    have enough work so that they will be self-supporting,
    because they are not willing to pay anything
    for the work camps.
    And I made a promise without even
    knowing whether we are going to be successful or not.
    And I promised it.
    Now that was the first time that I got together
    with Gisi Fleischmann and Dr. Neumann.
    But this much later, all this.
    Pardon?
    All this was much later.
    No, no, no, no.
    That was the beginning.
    That was even before deportation started.
    And that is exactly why I want to mention it.
    Because we already-- before even we started to,
    before deportation, and before we even knew what goes on,
    we had somehow the bad feeling that everything is better
    to stay in Slovakia just to not to get out.
    And it was necessary to find some ways
    what can we submit to the Slovaks to tell them,
    please, leave these here.
    It is better for Slovakia to have them
    here as to send them out.
    Especially because in the same time,
    now, you know, I remember the Germans
    asked the Slovak government for around 20,000 Slovak workers.
    Now, the Slovak government said, instead of giving to you
    Slovak workers, we are going to give you 20,000 Jewish workers.
    As we heard about it, that was one of the reasons
    that we knew that the danger is here,
    so you have to do something.
    And that was the idea.
    And Dr. Neumann and Gisi Fleischmann
    supported this idea.
    Shlomo Gross was very much against this,
    and Sebestyen very much against it, too.
    But Gisi Fleischmann and Dr. Winterstein, too,
    and Neumann and myself, we decided
    we are going to give it a try.
    And there was a good friend of ours, another Zionist,
    that was Krasniansky.
    By chance, he was the head of a so-called [SLOVAK],,
    a big building concern.
    And they needed, urgently, 400 new homes, 100 wooden stairs.
    And I thought, and I told Krasniansky, give us this job.
    And I'm going to immediately organize for you a big cabinet
    and workshop where we can produce the stairs.
    Yeah.
    OK.
    We will come back to this.
    Now, we will go in order.
    But could we say that you were yourself
    a member of the Jewish Central, of the Judenrat?
    Not Judenrat, because I was--
    the Judenrat was divided in different departments.
    And my so-called [GERMAN] was part of a department
    which Shlomo Gross was head.
    Yes.
    And so long Shlomo Gross--
    and I became later head of this department,
    but that was already, I think, maybe in the beginning of '42.
    Yes.
    The time that after Shlomo Gross was--
    But can we say that at the beginning of '42, you were--
    I was a member, correct.
    You were a member of the Slovak Judenrat?
    Of Slovak Judenrat, that's correct.
    Yes.
    And why did they appoint you?
    Because you were extremely young.
    I think it was basically because of my professional background
    in architecture.
    And they knew that I have an entrance, a very good entrance
    to even very important Slovak, people like Koso,
    and the state resort places directors.
    And because even before that happened,
    I organized in the [GERMAN],, an architectural abteilung where
    I put all the already Jewish architects and engineers
    who had been put out already because of
    the economic dislocation.
    And I organized, in the framework
    of UZ architect's office.
    And this office worked for the state resort places.
    And through that, I had-- suddenly, I
    had a number of very good umbrella and an excuse
    that I could go to certain higher Slovak positions
    because it was all the time here the excuse
    that an architect for the state resort
    places go to Mr. So-and-so to discuss something
    for the Slovaks.
    But were you at the time--
    you were a member of the Judenrat,
    and you were working for the Slovakians, too?
    That's correct.
    You were building for them?
    I was building, I was planning, and planning
    the development of the Slovak state resort places.
    But what-- can you explain to me what are these state resort
    places?
    The state resort places are just like, for instance, in France,
    you would say the Golden Coast on the France.
    Ah, yes.
    Now, state resort places are where you go for recreation.
    That was partly in the high Tatras,
    and partly in Sliac and Tatranska Lomnica.
    What is the need for this Jewish architect at the time?
    Because as the Jewish Codes, the laws against the Jews
    were already enforced?
    Yeah, but now, that is partly what
    I called my Rettungsaktion before even deportation
    started.
    I was working in Piestany, was working together with architect
    Szonyi, with whom I was working before I came into the UZ.
    And through architect Szonyi and Dr. Winter,
    who was the owner of this resort place,
    I had, again, connections to different, other directors
    of the state resort places.
    And I proposed to them, here is a group
    of skillfull fine architects who are without work.
    Why don't let us do for you the work
    for the state resort places?
    It's going to be much cheaper for you
    like you would do to somebody Slovak architects.
    Let us work for you.
    And I started to work for them in Piestany.
    And it was very successful.
    And then slowly, slowly we had to increase it.
    And instead of only Piestany, suddenly I became the architect
    for Tatranska Lomnica, Strbske Pleso,
    and quite a few other resort places.
    And constantly took all the Jewish architects
    who had been out of work into that office.
    And that was our first, I would say,
    cooperation with the Slovaks, that we could show them
    that how much better it is for the Slovaks to keep us here.
    And therefore, Slovakia, like, instead
    of being sent out to the Germans, Germany and work
    for the Germans.
    And it lasted a long time?
    Oh, that lasted to the last moment.
    We had been working for the state resort places constantly.
    Even some of the, for instance, this cabinet shop in Seled
    had been doing work for the Slovak state resort places
    constantly.
    And that was one of our strongest parts.
    We made, I think you know about it--
    that making furniture, designing furniture, making furniture
    was an important part of bribing.
    Dr. Vasek, for instance, even Minister Mach, received--
    his home was furnished by, designed by the Jewish,
    by our [GERMAN],, by our architects, myself
    and some others.
    And in Seled, it was produced in Seled.
    This means that you were the position of force,
    that you could--
    Correct.
    And that gave us not a position of force,
    but it gave us the possibility to negotiate
    and be in intimate contact with some very important Slovak
    positions.
    And when you were appointed member of the Judenrat,
    did you participate in the meetings of the Judenrat?
    Oh, yeah, sure.
    Yes.
    Yeah.
    In all the meetings?
    But all the meetings-- not all the meetings, because quite
    a few special on the Dr. Sebestyen.
    The meetings have been very uninteresting and very boring.
    Why?
    This was the second head of the UZ.
    That was the second head, too.
    First of all, because, that is basically how our so-called
    Working Group started.
    Sebestyen was a yes man.
    Everything about the UHU, that was the [SLOVAK],,
    that was the Slovak part of the head of this so-called UHU,
    was the head of the UZ, too.
    And everything about the head of this so-called Slovak UHU
    said, Sebestyen immediately followed up together
    with Hochberg.
    Now, we didn't like this attitude.
    We saw that all the time, next to the negative,
    and there must be some positives, too.
    And because we didn't like it, some we
    decided to meet in Gisi Fleischmann's office, Dr.
    Winterstein, Dr. Neumann, myself.
    And all these people, Gisi Fleischmann, Dr. Neumann,
    were members of the Judenrat.
    Part of the member of the Judenrat, sure.
    And in this, after Judenrat meeting,
    very often we didn't even go, because they just
    didn't want to be part of this completely yes, yes, yes,
    and the negative attitude.
    And we got together and started to think about it.
    What else can we do?
    And the decision about that time,
    that one of the positive which we can create
    is really this different work camps, and build them up
    as much as we can, and prove to the Slovaks
    that it is their advantage to let us be there.
    The work camps, I would very much
    like to say something else.
    This was the first time how I got together even
    with Weissmandel.
    Because after the work camps had been really established,
    and really, I would say, secured, too, suddenly,
    Weissmandel comes to me and asked me
    that I should ask Dr. Koso to give a kosher kitchen.
    For the Orthodox Jews, yes.
    For the work camps, for the Orthodox Jews.
    And I--
    (film slating)
    [FRENCH]
    Well, I think that what happened in Slovakia
    was quite particular and even quite unique.
    Because I would like you to explain this.
    There was a Judenrat, which was created by the Germans
    and by the Slovaks.
    Slovaks, yeah.
    Yes, but the Slovaks created this at the demand--
    Demand of the Germans.
    --demand of the Germans.
    That's right.
    The antisemitism in Slovakia was--
    Was there.
    --was there.
    Were there.
    Absolutely.
    Yeah.
    There was an anti-Jewish legislation,
    which was promulgated in autumn of '41.
    '41, that's right.
    What is called the Jewish Code.
    And this Judenrat had to work in order to comply.
    To comply with this code.
    With this code on the orders of the Slovaks on the Nazi.
    That's correct.
    And what happened is that there was a kind of--
    and this is very rare--
    internal opposition inside the Judenrat.
    I mean among the members of the Judenrat, yes.
    And that the Judenrat created its own opposition.
    In this, that's correct.
    Yes.
    And this is the beginning of the so-called--
    Work Group.
    Working Group.
    Working Group, that's right.
    So-called [GERMAN].
    [GERMAN], that's right.
    [GERMAN] means what, exactly?
    [GERMAN],, or a shadow government?
    Shadow government, that's right.
    That's what we were, the shadow government.
    But this shadow government was composed with members
    of the official Judenrat.
    That's right.
    Because Dr. Neumann, and Gisi Fleischmann, and Dr. Kovac
    all had been part of the--
    On your side.
    Yeah, that's right.
    Yes.
    All right.
    And can you elaborate more on this point?
    Because I think it is very important.
    And we are talking for people who don't
    know exactly the situation.
    Now, to talk more about how this so-called shadow
    government was created?
    Yes, exactly.
    Yeah, exactly.
    And what was the meaning of this?
    As I mentioned before, the Sebestyen and Hochberg,
    they have been the so-called group--
    Could you say the names more clearly?
    Sebestyen, Dr. Sebestyen was the so-called [SLOVAK]..
    He was the head of the Judenrat.
    He was a [GERMAN].
    [GERMAN]
    He was the head of the whole group.
    Yes.
    And Hochberg was head of the so-called [GERMAN]..
    Hochberg was a Jew?
    He was, Hochberg was a Jew.
    And he was the head of the department in the Judenrat
    who had to follow everything for Wisliceny,
    whether the orders had been carried out
    and whether deportation transport had been in time put
    together.
    This is the Dieter Wisliceny.
    Dieter Wisliceny was the--
    He was a representative of Eichmann--
    The [GERMAN].
    --in Slovakia.
    In Slovakia, that's correct.
    He was the man in charge of the deportations.
    That's correct.
    Of the Jews of Slovakia.
    He was the German in charge.
    Because in Slovakia was the interesting thing
    was that you had two parts in this whole deportation.
    It was the Slovak and the Germans.
    Yes.
    The Dr. Vasek was the head of the-- the official head
    of the deportation, because he was a Slovak.
    He was a Slovak then.
    And Wisliceny was only what they called it [GERMAN],,
    the advisor to him.
    Yes, advisor and supervisor.
    An advisor and supervisor.
    But really, the whole action itself
    was purely in Slovak hands.
    It was-- Slovakia was a kind of satellite
    and independent state.
    Independent state.
    And the whole deportation, the whole organization
    of the deportation, was in Dr. Vasek's hand,
    and in Slovakia, and Dr. Koso and Dr. Vasek.
    Could you talk first about the deportations from Slovakia?
    They started in the spring of 1942.
    Started out in '42 with a transport of girls.
    90?
    Around thousand.
    There are no less than 1,000 girls
    have been deported from Slovakia.
    999, let's say.
    999, let's say.
    And that was the beginning of the deportation.
    Girls?
    Girls.
    Only girls.
    Why?
    Nobody knows.
    We didn't know there.
    And why only girls?
    We had no idea.
    Then besides that, what the order
    given that every week must--
    two transport must go in from Slovakia.
    And that is how the whole deportation started.
    And really, after March and April, going up to even June,
    nearly every week, one or two transport
    had been sent to Poland.
    Where exactly?
    At that time, we didn't know yet.
    But that is, again, how Weissmandel
    came into the picture.
    Weissmandel seemingly organized some [GERMAN]
    things, as we call it.
    Information coming from Poland, illegal--
    Information service.
    --information services.
    And he received some letters from that time ordered
    from Poland from those who went out,
    I think in Auschwitz and Treblinka.
    Yes, some went to Treblinka.
    Treblinka.
    But the others went to Lublin.
    Lublin and so on.
    Majdanek and Auschwitz.
    And then later into Auschwitz, too.
    And some of the information came out that--
    because we had been told that first of all,
    the families will stay together.
    And in this whole deportation scheme, that we go,
    all the Jews are going to Germany in work camps.
    And the families will stay together and so on.
    You had no idea about the extermination?
    We had no idea.
    At that time, yeah, we had no idea whatsoever.
    And even with the first letters which Weissmandel received
    didn't tell us.
    That was before the extermination started.
    But even that time, the letters told us
    that it is not true that the families stayed together.
    The families are immediately torn apart.
    And only around 10% of those who are sent out to Germany
    stay in Germany.
    That the other 90% of them have been put into wagons
    and sent into to the East into Poland.
    Yes.
    And there--
    But they, excuse me.
    --and they immediately told us, immediately,
    that all that what they had been promised
    there were a lie, because they had been killing them.
    And appealed to us we should be helpful,
    because they are afraid for their life.
    Excuse me, Rabbi Weissmandel was not
    himself a member of the Judenrat.
    No, no.
    He was not.
    He was, I think--
    he was not a member of the Judenrat at all, that I know.
    But he was, really, the head or the pope--
    the very often sort of things people
    said he is the pope of the Orthodoxy.
    He was the guy, in spite of that his father-in-law was the Chief
    Rabbi Anitra.
    But a really well known man in the Orthodoxy was Weissmandel.
    He was very well known in Slovakia.
    Very well known in Slovakia.
    And we knew him, too.
    But our first contact, especially my first contact,
    was basically that he used to come
    not to the Judenrat [INAUDIBLE],, but he
    started to come to the so-called shadow regeirung meetings.
    And at one of these meeting, he brought letters just
    received from Poland from families and from boys
    who had been sent to--
    Do you remember exactly the scene?
    You were there.
    I was there.
    I just remember that he was showing the letters
    and telling that all what we had been promised are not true.
    And instead of working, only a very small part
    of the deportees are working, are put into work camps.
    And the overwhelming majority is sent into concentration camps
    in ghettos to Poland somewhere.
    And there, they are dying, partly
    by being killed and partly by health, lack of health.
    Do you know how did he-- through which
    channels did he get the news?
    I don't know the channels.
    But I know-- we knew that he had some Slovaks who
    went into Poland.
    And do you know that Czechoslovakia and Poland had
    a very long common frontier?
    Yes.
    And through this frontier, it was easy,
    especially for Slovaks, who for good money, went into Poland,
    got the information what happened with the Jews,
    and came back to Weissmandel.
    And this is how the whole information started.
    But you don't remember this scene exactly,
    how he came, how he arrived?
    Because I would like you to describe it.
    This was your first meeting with him.
    That was the first meeting with him, yeah.
    Yes.
    The details, I don't remember, because that was a so-called
    completely apart from the activities which
    I was involved.
    And that time, I just was there sitting at a--
    It must have been very striking.
    Because as a matter of fact, this
    was the first news about the fact that the Germans lied
    and that the Jews were shipped to the East.
    This was the first news of the extermination,
    as a matter of fact.
    That's right.
    But these are the information-- these are the information which
    Weissmandel gathered and organized
    without our help, that he did by himself.
    Yes.
    And he just came to us and told us
    that that is really the reality.
    The reality is not what we had been told.
    This is now the reality.
    That was one of the reasons, too,
    that we started to think about it if that's the case.
    So we must really start, must start to fight
    to stop the deportation.
    That was one of, really, the factors, that the little shadow
    regeirung started not only just to think about it what
    we can do on the work camps in Slovakia, that we
    will have now to start to fight against deportation.
    That was the whole idea is--
    I think it was Weissmandel's idea, too,
    that we, Dr. Kovac, who was in the Judenrat,
    he's the secretary-general of the Judenrat
    had very good relations with Dr. Vasek,
    whom he knew already from times before,
    that he was starting now to speak openly with Dr. Vasek
    and telling him that this is our information.
    So you must help us to stop deportation.
    Because we know that deportation means--
    (film slating)
    OK, I would very much like to say a few words now
    about maybe two or three different-- not completely
    in the time sequence, but they are very important for me,
    because these are my relation to Rabbi Weissmandel.
    Mm-hmm.
    And let me tell you the first important meeting--
    which we had with him in connection with the working
    camps, as I mentioned to you before--
    the working camps, there are two different concentrations.
    One part of the work camps--
    Sered', Vyhne, and Nováky--
    was deportation concentration.
    And part of it was concentration for work.
    And they brought into these camps
    Slovak Jews who had been thrown out from their economic life
    and trying now to create there a new economic life,
    based on their own experiences, their own profession.
    This means that you try to restore a kind of life?
    To restore to life, and rescue them,
    and get them the exception for deportation.
    Mm-hmm.
    Which was assured for us that if so long they
    are going to be there and work, they will
    be excepted from deportation.
    Because this was in Slovakia, it's
    the same scheme as everywhere--
    You're correct.
    --an excuse for work.
    And now, life started to be pretty easy in these work
    camps.
    And one day Weissmandel comes to me
    and asks me that I should get him the permission
    to get a kosher kitchen.
    And I really just looked at him and told him, Rabbi, today
    that is important?
    We are trying to save lives, and you
    are coming to me to ask for Dr. Koso,
    to ask him for a kosher kitchen?
    He is going to laugh about it, because that is just
    completely unimportant!
    To save lives and secure them in Sered' and Nováky,
    that is important!
    That's what counts.
    That's what counts.
    And Rabbi Weissmandel and his beautiful blue eye--
    because that was really the only part you just saw was
    beautiful-- otherwise he was outside a pretty ugly Jew,
    like Der Stürmer.
    Stürmer had caricatures very often that with the typical
    case, like a Jew, would be a dirty caftan with a long payes
    and with a beard, very unkempt and dirty and so on.
    He was dirty?
    Yeah, but outside.
    And I had the feeling--
    and that was how he started to influence my work with him--
    as I had been facing him eye to eye.
    Suddenly, I started to see not this outside,
    but suddenly saw through his eye an incredible, beautiful human
    being.
    And not only that, he started to have, I would say,
    a magic influence on me.
    And some of the very important meetings and intervention,
    which I carried out, where I was daring to oppose Wisliceny
    or Dr. Koso and ask them certain things-- which, otherwise,
    I wouldn't even dream to ask them--
    I did only just because Weissmandel gave me
    the strength to do it.
    And now, this would be very typical for him
    how he achieved those things.
    He came and he asked you to provide--
    He come to camp and asked me to provide the permission
    for kosher kitchen.
    --a kosher kitchen for the religious Jews
    who were in the camps?
    The Jews who were in the camps.
    So I told him, no, I cannot do that.
    He said, Andrej, you can.
    And not only you can, you are going to go to Dr. Koso
    and you are going to get it!
    And he said-- and I ask him, Rabbi, now what do you mean?
    How can how can you say it?
    How can I even speak with Koso that way?
    And now he's told me something which-- not only in Slovakia,
    but even here in my profession-- influenced me very, very much.
    He said, Andrej, I tell you something.
    You go to Dr. Koso, and the moment you
    start to speak with him, you look
    at him sitting on a johnny.
    Sitting down--
    Sitting on a johnny, on a toilet!
    It's a a johnny, you know what it is.
    Ah, yes.
    In a WC, in a toilet.
    And the very moment you look at him that way,
    he is the same human being as you are.
    And you will see, suddenly, you are
    going to dare to tell him anything what you want.
    And don't be ashamed!
    You will achieve it.
    And sure enough--
    This means Dr. Koso has to shit like everybody.
    Shit like everybody else.
    He says, what are you afraid to tell him now?
    He's just as a human being as you are.
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    So truth of the matter is I did exactly what Weissmandel
    told me.
    I went to Dr. Koso in his office.
    And I used to--
    a few minutes all the time before I sit down with him--
    I was a little bit standing, and he was standing.
    And I was looking at him as he sat down.
    I looked at him exactly as Weissmandel told me.
    Sitting, that guy was naked.
    In my eye, seeing him sitting on a johnny.
    And I started to smile.
    And Dr. Koso asked me, why are you smiling?
    And I was--
    I told him that.
    You told him?
    I told him that!
    Dr. Koso, I must tell you, you know Rabbi Weissmandel,
    who he is.
    And he asked me to come to you to ask
    this, and this, and this.
    And I was afraid even to come to you.
    [LANDLINE PHONE RINGING]
    But, of course, Weissmandel told me I should look at you
    and see you as sitting on a johnny, and I did.
    And I really saw you sitting on a johnny.
    Now, please, listen to me what he wanted to have.
    And the miracle happened, just like Weissmandel said.
    He said, OK, go ahead.
    You can have it.
    He was not hurt?
    He was not hurt, he wasn't angry.
    He was laughing about it.
    And he really gave permission and immediately called Pechuk.
    That was the other guy with whom I had contact,
    and he was the day-to-day operator.
    A Slovak?
    Slovak too.
    And say, Pechuk, Steiner is here.
    Sit down with him and organize that the orthodox Jewish would
    have the orthodox kitchen.
    There were many orthodox Jews in the--
    In the camps.
    --in the concentration camp?
    Sure there were many orthodox Jews.
    In Slovakia, there were many?
    Many, many, sure.
    Yes, and you talked about the blue eyes of Weissmandel.
    No, that-- Yeah.
    Can you say more about the eyes?
    No, I would say something else now.
    That was my-- that was the first really connection which
    I had with Weissmandel.
    And I really suddenly started to feel
    that he had some magic influence on me,
    and really a magic influence.
    You were not a total religious Jew.
    No.
    No, not at all.
    And the second time that I really felt it
    was in connection with Wisliceny.
    As you know, Hochberg, who was our first contact,
    was put in jail by the Slovaks.
    And suddenly, the contact men which he had
    before to Wisliceny was gone.
    And the so-called [INAUDIBLE],, The Shadow Government,
    decided who should go now instead of Hochberg.
    And because they knew of my, let's
    say, useful enthusiasm and daring thing,
    he said Andrej Steiner should go.
    You were very daring.
    Again, Weissmandel said Andrej should go,
    and I'm going to tell him how he should handle it,
    just as I told him how to handle this whole thing with Koso.
    Let us handle it.
    I'm going to tell Andrej what to do.
    And sure enough-- so after it was decided I should go and see
    Wisliceny because he was very, very angry that Hochberg is
    gone--
    [INAUDIBLE]
    --Weissmandel told me, Andrej, you
    go to Wisliceny and tell him the following thing.
    Wisliceny, you think that you are going to win.
    We, the Jews here in Slovakia, think that we are going to win.
    We are going to win?
    We!
    We, the Jews or the English and the French, are going to win
    and you are going to lose.
    So start to be a little bit more cooperative with us.
    We give you money for it, and you
    can create for yourself the biggest
    alibi that you can have.
    If the Germans are winning, nothing happened.
    You played a very clever game.
    But if we are going to win-- as we think--
    you still are very fine, because we are going to help you
    and we will be able to help you.
    Again I thought, Rabbi, how do you expect me to go and say
    things like that.
    He is going to send me to Poland.
    Again, he looked at me like a prophet, I would say.
    That is the best description as I would describe Weissmandel.
    The more I was with him, he started
    to have a tremendous influence.
    Anybody else from the whole [INAUDIBLE]
    could have asked me, I wouldn't have dared to do that.
    But Weissmandel asked me and he looked at me,
    and I had the feeling a Jewish prophet speaks now to me.
    And he told me, Andrej, don't worry about it.
    God will help you.
    So now I remembered how true he was in the Koso affair.
    And I told myself, yes, I'm going to do it.
    And sure enough, exactly what happened, I went to Wisliceny.
    And first, he was raving like an animal to me
    that was Hochberg, we put him in jail,
    and what he should do now if he started
    to do certain negotiation, and what's going to happen now.
    And he was raving and I didn't answer him.
    And he just-- something told me--
    Excuse me, I cut you because I would
    like you to describe very carefully the first meeting
    with Wisliceny.
    That was not my first meeting with Wisliceny,
    because I was in connection with him
    and I knew him already in connection with the work camps.
    Ah, yes.
    You mentioned that.
    In the work camps, I met him--
    that's why I was selected, because there was nobody else.
    Dr. Neumann could go to him or Andre
    would go to him, because Dr. Neumann knew
    him and I knew him.
    But Weissmandel especially said that I should go.
    Maybe Weissmandel knew the really magic influence
    he had on me.
    And he saw that if, he and myself,
    we are going to work together, work it out
    how to approach it--
    But did he like you, Weissmandel?
    Weissmandel liked me pretty much,
    but once he made a very joking remark.
    He said, Andrej, you know just one thing is wrong you,
    that you are not orthodox.
    It was very important for him?
    It was very important for him, that's right.
    He made it completely clear that he forgives me my
    being an assimilated Jew, just because I am just
    as much in a helping action to save Jews like he is.
    But he didn't make any hail about it,
    he said the trouble with you is that you are not orthodox.
    He very frankly said it would have been much, much better
    for him if I would be orthodox.
    But anyway, really interesting what happened with Wisliceny.
    And after Wisliceny had been raving, and I didn't--
    We need another.
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    (film slating)
    [SLATE CLAPS]
    But I mentioned for you me first really meeting
    with Weissmandel in connection with a kosher kitchen,
    that was in the beginning before the deportation.
    And then deportation started to roll.
    And in a few months time, more than 50,000 Jews
    had been deported from Slovakia.
    The situation became very, very serious.
    Excuse me, how many Jews were in Slovakia?
    I think about 75,000 or 80,000.
    This means two-thirds already?
    That's correct.
    After, because the situation became very, very serious,
    the idea came again for Weissmandel something
    has to be done.
    And not on the Slovak, but the Germans has to be bribed.
    That was partly how he got, first,
    Hochberg to bribe Wisliceny with $40,000.
    Interesting enough--
    Hochberg was--
    Hochberg was the first man who bribed--
    Hold on.
    (film logistics)
    (film slating)
    [SLATE CLAPS]
    As I mentioned to you before, this
    was the time that the deportation
    started in Slovakia.
    And the deportations started in a very big scale
    and very rapidly.
    We had the feeling that now really something
    has to be done, if you want to save as many Jews as possible
    and keep them in Slovakia.
    And now the question came up to bribe, not only the Slovaks--
    which we did up to that point--
    especially Weissmandel's idea that absolutely it is a must
    to bribe the German.
    Because so long we don't play safely
    on both sides, the German and the Slovak,
    we never going to be able to stop deportation in Slovakia.
    The question was how to dare to bribe Wisliceny.
    That's why Weissmandel said that he is going to speak with
    Hochberg, who was a member of the Judenrat,
    in charge about the special activity department--
    which means in charge about the deportation--
    and working with Wisliceny, giving him all the time
    the statistics involved.
    The lists?
    The lists.
    The deported list and the statistics.
    But Hochberg--
    This Hochberg, he was complying to the German order?
    Hochberg was in many Jews at traitor-- many Jews eyes
    thought that he was a traitor.
    And that's why we didn't want to work with him,
    because we had been afraid if he would
    know about our activities, we would be exposed
    and we couldn't work in the ways we wanted to work.
    If he had known about the activities of the shadow
    government?
    Shadow government.
    He would have gone, eventually, to Wisliceny or to somebody
    else and create difficulties.
    That's why we didn't want to have him involved.
    But Weissmandel, against our [INAUDIBLE],,
    we should leave it up to him.
    And he really spoke with Hochberg
    and told him you did a lot of bad things.
    But you could correct all those what you did,
    if you are going to help me.
    And you could save now the rest of the Jews in Slovakia.
    You have to go to Wisliceny, tell him
    that we will give him $40,000.
    You will take it with you and tell him
    that he should help to stop the deportation.
    Hochberg really did it, and went Wisliceny and gave him
    the money.
    This mean that Weissmandel succeeded to--
    Weissmandel succeeded--
    --convince Hochberg.
    --to convince Hochberg to work this time, this way,
    and being helpful.
    And Hochberg really needed this alibi
    and needed this type of help and grabbed it immediately,
    just like Weissmandel said.
    Now, I don't want to go into much detail what
    happened in between.
    But I want to go now and prepare now
    the possibilities how, again, Weissmandel's idea was
    a so-called Europea plan.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    What is a Europea?
    Before that comes, it is important to show
    how we had been able to build up with Wisliceny
    a very intimate relation.
    And that is exactly how under the influence,
    like I told you before about Weissmandel
    told me how I should approach Wisliceny,
    was the basis of our intimate relation with him.
    And here, again, Weissmandel said you will see,
    you will be able to achieve it.
    Don't be afraid.
    Don't be afraid of bribing.
    I was afraid of bribing, because that was my relation
    to Wisliceny, and to Koso, and to all the other Slovaks
    and Germans was not bribing.
    I was simply professional like an architect, builder,
    planner to the others.
    And Weissmandel started to explain to me on radio,
    sometimes that doesn't go.
    We know better like you, maybe, there
    are assimilate Jews that life and can be bought by bribing.
    And that is what makes us still survive
    through many, many difficulties all over the world.
    So you will have to learn it.
    Bribing, in a case like that, is absolutely a must.
    Because to bribe the Gentiles was
    the way the orthodox Jewish--
    Orthodox Jewish lived.
    And it's this all along?
    It was all along with.
    And after that, I read enough about the Jewish history
    to know how true it is.
    But, for me, it was a completely new experience
    to achieve something by bribing.
    So anyway, I went up to Wisliceny, as I told you.
    After he was raving and shouting.
    And I didn't answer him, so he told me
    what are you standing there without answering?
    I asked him the question, what is [INAUDIBLE]??
    How was Wisliceny?
    What did he look?
    Wisliceny was stubby, not too high man,
    and a little bit smaller as I am, but very distinguished
    looking, a so-called refined German.
    But he was an SS man?
    He was an SS Hauptsturmführer.
    Yes.
    And he was directly in contact constantly with Eichmann
    and with Himmler, because I think his wife was
    a cousin of Himmler.
    That's why, because of that, he had direct access
    to speak with Himmler and not to go
    all the time through Eichmann.
    And gestures just by a little detour which I did right now.
    Now after, he shouted at me that he didn't get an answer.
    He asked me, why don't you give me an answer?
    And I looked at him again like what
    Weissmandel told me about Koso.
    And suddenly, I saw Wisliceny sitting like on a johnny.
    And again, instead of being afraid,
    I suddenly got the courage.
    And I told myself I am going to do now and say everything what
    Weissmandel told me to say.
    And I told Wisliceny, Hauptsturmführer,
    I am not accustomed to that type of treatment.
    And if you start now to speak with me
    the same way like my Slovak positions
    talk in a civilized way, I'm going to give you
    all the answer, but not before.
    Wisliceny told me--
    What do you mean by the answers?
    What kind of answers?
    He asked me, what happened with Hochberg?
    Where he is?
    And I didn't give him any answer to that.
    So after, he told me take a seat.
    And the very moment I was sitting with him,
    I knew that Weissmandel was, again, right.
    Here, the magic worked again.
    I dared to stand up to the German,
    based on the strength, which not I had,
    but really Weissmandel gave to me.
    You think really so?
    Oh, absolutely!
    He had, in this thing, absolutely a magic influence
    on me.
    And I suddenly followed, again, his advice.
    And after I was sitting with Wisliceny all the time,
    I told him all of what he told me.
    And I told Wisliceny the same story.
    You think that you are going to win,
    we think you are going to lose.
    So be from now on our informer.
    We are going to pay you fine.
    And we are going to do certain things which
    will be good for us Jews, too, and good for you Germans, too.
    You were the one who started to bribe?
    I had with me $10,000 already, at that time.
    And told him, listen, here I have
    and I would like to give you the $10,000 that is only just
    to show you that there are some possibilities,
    and not only Hochberg is able to give you that.
    Don't worry about if Hochberg is not here,
    I'm, Steiner, am going to be now the contact
    men to you and the World Jewry.
    That's something which I would like to tell you, too.
    Gisi Fleischmann made an additional request to me that
    under no circumstances should I say that it is
    the Slovak Jew speaking to him.
    Slovak Jews are not strong enough.
    Wisliceny will immediately see that if we are speaking
    about big 1,000, maybe a million dollars,
    he will know that it is something fake.
    But if we are going to tell him that the World
    Jewry is behind that, then he will believe it.
    And exactly what happened, that's what went through.
    The World Jewry, had a strong meaning for Wisliceny?
    Wisliceny believed it right away!
    He really did?
    He really believed it immediately
    that that is something, not we, but we
    are doing in accordance with the knowledge of the World Jewry.
    And everything that we are going to discuss with him
    and agree upon will be backed by the World Jewry.
    This means this was an old idea of the secret power
    of the Jews, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
    The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and so on.
    What is behind it, I don't know.
    But you know that the German propaganda constantly
    said the Jews had the power all over the world.
    So Gisi Fleischmann, again, was right.
    She said follow Rabbi Weissmandel's advice,
    what to do and how to speak with him, but under no circumstances
    say--
    and be sure that he understands that this
    is an action which is backed and financed by the World Jewry.
    And I'm absolutely sure that Wisliceny bought it
    because of these two elements, that I combined
    what Weissmandel told me to say and combined what Gisi
    Fleischmann told me to say.
    There were two people who advised you.
    There was Weissmandel who told you explains them
    that they will lose the war--
    explain to Wisliceny that the Germans will lose the war--
    and Gisi Fleischmann, who was a woman.
    Yeah.
    And she was a member of the Judenrat, too?
    Judenrat, too.
    Yeah.
    Told you let him think that this money is gathered by the World
    Jewry?
    Correct.
    [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
    (film slating)
    You say that when you came to Wisliceny,
    when you offered the bribe, that you
    had received $10,000, and that already $40,000--
    $40,000 was given to him by Hochberg.
    Yes, but where did this money come from?
    That money was not for the World Jewry,
    and not even from the American Jewry.
    It didn't come from the World Jewry.
    No, no, that was so-called Slovak Boden Credit-Anstalt
    money.
    What is it?
    Boden Credit-Anstalt money means that in Vienna, which
    is a nearby big city, was a really big bank called Boden
    Credit-Anstalt And that was for us
    the so-called word for the money put into the ground
    and hidden in the ground.
    Because boden in German means the ground.
    Boden means the ground.
    And if you spoke about Boden Credit-Anstalt,
    everybody in the [INAUDIBLE] knew
    that it is something mostly the orthodox Jewry had
    hidden and put into the ground.
    This means that the orthodox Jews had money?
    Had money all over, not only in Bratislava.
    All over Slovakia they knew that many of the orthodox Jews
    had dollars hidden in the ground, that's
    why we called it the Boden Credit-Anstalt.
    Now the question was how to get it out,
    because the official money, which
    we received from the American joint, was $5,000 only.
    Nothing.
    That was nothing.
    So now $40,000 and the $10,000, which I took over,
    is together $50,000.
    It was unheard.
    This was, again, Weissmandel's idea.
    He said, you're ridiculous, you cannot go with $5,000.
    You must give $40,000 and $10,000.
    And the finance minister and Dr. Neumann who heard this,
    said to Rabbi, where can we take it?
    He said, don't worry about it.
    We will have to take it.
    It must be here.
    And Gisi Fleischmann thought, let's call [Personal name]
    [Personal name]
    [Personal name]
    Who was he?
    He was a orthodox Jew, a very good friend of Weissmandel.
    And he was known that he was working
    in valutas, the division in foreign currency,
    especially in dollars.
    And if we had to call [Personal name] Weissmandel
    spoke with him and try and ask him
    can you get out from the Boden Credit-Anstalt.
    From the ground?
    From the ground.
    And [Personal name] said, OK, how much do you need?
    And we needed once $40,000 and once $10,000.
    It was in a week, I think, the money was here.
    It was taken out from the ground,
    nicely cleaned and nicely packed and so on.
    Cleaned?
    Cleaned, because very often it was really dirty.
    And after we cleaned it and nicely
    packed-- it was the three of us put it in a big envelope,
    and we took it to Wisliceny.
    And when you had shown these $10,000 to Wisliceny,
    how did he react to this?
    He wanted the money or not?
    Oh, he wanted the money.
    Truth in my eyes, I thought that it's not only the money
    he wanted to have.
    This alibi, or the alibi which I told him about,
    that is not for sure that you are winning,
    maybe we are going to win it.
    I had the feeling that played quite a role, too, quite a role
    to accept our proposal.
    Because we ask him--
    for the following thing, we ask him.
    Immediately, finish--
    Yes, what was the deal?
    Because this meeting with Wisliceny-- your meeting
    with Wisliceny-- with the money, the bribing,
    tool place in the middle of the first wave of the deportation.
    On the first day of deportation.
    So we said they have to stop deportation.
    He will have now to give us the permission
    to have correspondence-- connection--
    with the different camps in Germany.
    And he must give us the possibility
    to give some medical help to the concentration camps.
    Because you said Germany, this means that you
    didn't know at the time--
    We didn't know at the time where they were.
    You saw that the people were being shipped.
    Whether in Poland or the German camps, we didn't know for sure.
    And you talked about the killings, the extermination?
    No, that time we didn't know it.
    And Wisliceny said he knew.
    Of course, he knew.
    I don't know.
    At least, that is, he behaved sometimes as he wouldn't know.
    But, you know, you never can say about what he really knew
    and what he didn't know.
    Now after that, Wisliceny said, OK.
    And he promised me that he is going
    to get together and submit this whole plan to Eichmann.
    The plan to stop the deportations from Slovakia?
    To stop deportations from Slovakia.
    And I told him real frankly that it is not from his spot,
    from the German parts, we don't need
    too much, because Dr. [Personal name]
    was working in the Slovak part for the same time.
    And we of us knew the Slovaks would be willing to stop this,
    if the Germans are not going to ask for anything.
    For what we ask Wisliceny, he should not
    ask any further transports.
    You just asked him--
    Stop asking further transports.
    The Slovak part we are going to take care of.
    You have a know-it-all attitude.
    That's correct.
    And he said I should come in a few days later again.
    Meanwhile, he is going to speak with Eichmann
    and see what he can do.
    And sure enough, a few days later, I
    came back again to him, and he said the plan is accepted.
    At that time, he told me that he sent a money all the way
    to Berlin, because he wanted to be sure that I should
    know that I'm not bribing him.
    I gave money for him, but he's giving it
    to his superiors for money which goes
    to the SS, or the generals, I don't know.
    Yes.
    The same time after that was achieved, Dr. [INAUDIBLE],,
    Rabbi [INAUDIBLE],, and Weissmandel--
    They were all the members of the Judenrat?
    All the members of Judenrat--
    The [INAUDIBLE]-- Dr. Frida.
    The Shadow Government, not Judenrat.
    That time we didn't have too much to do with the Judenrat.
    We had been working only on saving as many Jews as possible
    in Slovakia.
    And we didn't do too much part about the Judenrat activities
    at all, because that was so much time consuming here,
    that was the only thing that we really did.
    The idea was to bribe the Germans with money, in order
    to stop the deportations from Slovakia.
    You were the first, as a matter of fact,
    to initiate this kind of deal?
    That's correct.
    That was very important for us, because let's say
    we made the first breakthrough.
    That time, we thought that this Wisliceny is going
    to stay with us a long time.
    And slowly, slowly-- that was Weissmandel's plan--
    after he's able to do this, we will
    be able to see that he is able to make a deal
    and implement even the deals, then
    we can eventually go to him and ask for more and more and more.
    Yes, but was the deal really implemented?
    What happened?
    The implementation was, insofar as seen from Wisliceny's side,
    because truth of the matter is deportation stopped.
    Around for two months from that time
    that I gave him the $10,000, he did not-- and we knew.
    He used to be [INAUDIBLE] all the time.
    This is very, very strange and very difficult to understand.
    Because for the Boden Credit-Anstalt,
    $50,000 was really a lot of money.
    Lots of money.
    Yes, but for the Germans it was nothing, $50,000.
    Do you think that the deportations stopped--
    Not because of that.
    No, we told Wisliceny the money he received up to now
    was only the beginning, if he's going to cooperate with us
    and inform us about dangers which we have to face,
    and really helped us, too, and not only
    being the exterminator of the Jews here,
    then more money is going to come.
    And that's why Gisi Fleischmann said
    that we should emphasize that it is not only
    the Slovaks behind it, that we all really represent here
    the World Jewry.
    And we made it very clear to him that if he is going to do that,
    later on much more money is going to come to him.
    The deportations stopped--
    The deportations stopped that time.
    From July to September, was no deportation.
    And the in September and October--
    I think-- before it completely stopped,
    there had been three more transports.
    And now in the history about these three transports,
    it is not completely clear was is it
    only because that time we already succeeded
    to bribe the Slovaks and the Germans,
    or was it because of some type of statistical set up
    in Slovakia.
    Some say that the bribe, that's what stopped the deportations.
    And the three additional, that came only
    because the Slovak State Statistic Office
    suddenly discovers--
    [INAUDIBLE] pointed out-- that there are only 20,000 Jews only
    left in Slovakia.
    And now this so-called statistician
    said that is not true, because I know for sure that more
    than 25,000 are still here.
    And because of seemingly a [INAUDIBLE]
    and a Slovak understanding, by Dr. [INAUDIBLE],,
    that by 20,000, they are willing to stop.
    Because of this, some said that it
    was because of this difference in the statistics, that's
    why three transports went.
    And some think that the three transports went only
    because some--
    What was your opinion of Weissmandel?
    Weissmandel thought sure that the stoppage came because
    of the bribing of Wisliceny, and because we
    failed to give him very quickly additional money,
    because we just didn't have it!
    Did he ask for additional money?
    Yeah, he asked for additional money.
    He told me, when I'm getting-- when are
    the rest of the money coming?
    And how much did you compromise?
    We never gave that time a definite sum.
    A definite sum we told him only later,
    in connection with the Europea Plan.
    (film slating)
    As you remember, I mentioned that quite a few times,
    the words world Jewry.
    That has some thing really very important how it happens.
    And that is interesting.
    That is the creation of Weissmandel.
    Because Weissmandel told Hochberg
    to emphasize that a Mr. {Personal name]
    came to Hochberg and told him that he represents the world
    Jewry, and he should try now to make some deal
    with the Germans, and there will be lots of money
    available if the Germans would be willing to do that.
    (film logistics)
    (film slating)
    In this whole negotiation with WIsliceny as I told you before,
    the emphasis, that not only we, the Slovak Jews, are behind it,
    but the world Jewry is behind it was very important.
    And to make it really sure and really strong,
    Weissmandel created the figure of Rott.
    Rott.
    Rott.
    Yeah.
    A man called Rott.
    A man called Rott who was supposed to be from Switzerland
    and would give and negotiate money
    for the reconstruction, if we are able to [INAUDIBLE]..
    You mean rescue.
    Yeah, the rescue operation.
    And to emphasize how it is, even Weissmandel and Gisi
    Fleischmann forged letters coming from Switzerland,
    written in a big Swiss hotel, with coming in with Swiss
    letterhead, and so on and so on, and that they had been showing
    to Wisliceny, showing that --
    And signed by Joseph Rott.
    And signed by Joseph Roth.
    And Joseph Rott, was--
    supposed to be what?
    To be the representative?
    He was supposed to be the representative of the world
    Jewry, the connection, the contact man between the Slovak
    Jews and the world Jewry when --
    settled and headquartered in Switzerland.
    And yourself, during your talks with Wisliceny you--
    I emphasized then, too, that it was natural
    that we are constantly in contact with Rott
    and the others in Switzerland, and with the representative
    of American Joint.
    We really played it very strongly
    that he should has a feeling that if he speaks with me--
    and he knew from me that Gisi Fleischmann lived there,
    and Rabbi Weissmandel is there, and Rabbi [? Frieda. ?]
    He knew the whole set-up.
    But here, what we tried to explain to him and emphasize,
    that we Slovak Jews right now are not only
    the groups of Slovaks, but we represent the connection
    to the world Jewry.
    And this character of Rott was purely imaginary?
    Purely imaginary, invented by Weissmandel.
    So he's a fantastic thing, no?
    And a fantastic thing, just like many other things
    this Weissmandel that Weissmandel brought up
    were fantastic.
    For instance, his whole financial dreams,
    that he absolutely had no feeling what really dollar,
    what really money is.
    He was constantly dreaming and being up in the air,
    not down on the ground.
    That was constantly a discussion between the group too
    and between Weissmandel, that we the other members of the group
    thought that $1,000 is a lots of money.
    And any time, if Weissmandel had some proposal,
    he started out with 40,000, 50,000, 100,000,
    and if necessary, a million dollars.
    And for where it comes from, it doesn't
    make any difference for him.
    He all the time said, don't worry about it.
    It will be here.
    When they will be, will be fine.
    Yeah.
    If necessary, if he can produce some of these rescue actions,
    the money will be here.
    He had no idea at all about, say, let's
    say the money mathematics?
    Money mathematics didn't exist for him,
    because his philosophy was saving.
    If you can buy with money, which is just a piece of paper,
    human life, money, and paper should be here.
    And if [INAUDIBLE] credit [INAUDIBLE]
    and Slovakia is not enough, so he will be bringing it
    from any place of the world.
    Yes, but this is --
    Because it was not so, but because he, very often, said--
    and it was real interesting.
    It was my philosophy, too.
    We thought that if the information goes out abroad
    to the English and American and Switzerland,
    what really deportation means, that it really
    means any relation.
    Yes.
    Then after, outside, that they know it,
    suddenly every pocket is going to be opened,
    and we are just going to inundated with money.
    But it didn't happen.
    Every Jewish pocket.
    Every Jewish pocket, yeah will be open, But it didn't.
    It didn't?
    Why-- and that's what that was miscalculation,
    which really we really --
    I still don't understand how it happened
    and why it didn't came, as Weissmandel had said so.
    This is really absolutely tragic, because the letters
    that Weissmandel sent abroad, asking for money, absolutely
    heartbreaking.
    And so people, simply they didn't answer.
    Yeah.
    Just as we see nowadays, there's a lot of things
    that we don't understand, and realistically,
    the outside reaction should be something
    which we, in our moral stance, feel it just don't happen.
    And we saw it after the Second World War.
    We see what goes on right now in the world, too.
    A lot of things don't happen in spite of it should definitely.
    Yes.
    And the point is that the world Jewry, because the world
    Jewry existed somehow, in some way.
    But did not react as we expected that the world Jewry would
    react.
    Because we really thought what is a few thousand
    for the world jewry or the American Joint?
    Nothing.
    Yes.
    But seemingly, I really don't know.
    I still don't understand why this money was not available.
    Yes, because the answer to Weissmandel,
    with asking for accounts, asking how this money will be used--
    they wanted absolutely precise details.
    Details, [INAUDIBLE], yeah.
    Just --
    --like a bookkeeping about it.
    Yes, a bureaucratic way.
    A bureaucratic way.
    But we told them that there's no such thing.
    Here, we speak about human lives, not about some
    bureaucratic programs.
    Yes.
    And well, what happened when the first news?
    Because at this time, you didn't know about the extermination.
    Yeah, now that came, I think, in '42, in November,
    that one day, we had been sitting in Gisi Fleischmann's
    office, and suddenly, Weissmandel came in,
    but that time, really incredible, upset.
    And he was crying.
    And his eyes was just completely full with tears.
    And he was trembling in his whole body and telling us,
    something horrible, something horrible happened.
    And we tried to tell him to sit down, be quiet, and tell us
    really what it is.
    And he gave us a piece of paper, where
    the first time, really, in this piece of paper, somebody
    from Poland writes us that--
    Wrote [? way? ?]
    Pardon?
    Wrote to Weissmandel?
    [? Who ?] wrote it to Weissmandel?
    Oh, I don't know.
    Weissmandel had it only, because I
    think Weissmandel had a constant connection to Poland,
    and some of his [INAUDIBLE],, who went constantly to Poland
    to bring him back again some news,
    there have been some changes which he had.
    We didn't even know what the channels are.
    But we have been glad that he has it,
    and we didn't even worry about it.
    And he had some channels who brought him constantly
    news from Poland.
    And that was the last thing, the horrifying news,
    that the first time it was said, that deportation
    means really annihilation, that concentration camps are there,
    where Jews are gassed.
    And not only that, --
    in that little paper, he had, as I remember,
    not only that one paper [INAUDIBLE],, he had,
    all the time, in the kaftan full of so-called--
    Gisi Fleischmann used to say this dynamite.
    And dynamite means, that if you go to the street--
    and you know I never knew in the street
    in Slovakia, whether there is somebody doesn't catch you.
    And if somebody would have caught,
    especially him, by his exterior, it's
    very possible the Hlinka man, or some Nazi, is catching him
    and tries now to demolish him.
    And if they find in his pockets there
    had been so-called dynamite, because there
    was proof what type of connections,
    illegal connections, he constantly had.
    was the dynamite was the papers.
    He has, all the time--
    Those were papers, yeah.
    --all the time, papers all his pockets, in the kaftan,
    in his pockets, in the back and the front.
    Every pocket was full of papers.
    And he used to say that he is his own archive.
    And Gisi Fleischmann even ask him now--
    and he opened another pockets and gave us, not only this one,
    but I think two or three more different news,
    telling us truthfully what really goes on,
    that concentration means to be sent from that camp
    further to east, to different concentration camps--
    Extermination.
    --extermination camps.
    Now, that is the first time that we heard about it.
    Now, that news, immediately Weissmandel
    said that has to go out to the world.
    And immediately, he, I think Rabbi Weissmandel,
    Rabbi [? Frieda ?] and Gisi Fleischmann immediately
    wrote letters, giving the whole story,
    what we heard, and sent it out all over,
    even I think to the Vatican and to Switzerland,
    to Constantinople, and to the American
    Joint, all over the world.
    And he emphasized, all the time, that after this will be known
    outside, all the pockets, all the Jewish money,
    will just flow us, because that will help us to save what
    [? the ?] [? others ?] can be saved.
    And he was crying?
    It didn't happen.
    And why?
    We still don't know why it didn't happen.
    Now, that is now the question.
    Did some of our proposals to Wisliceny
    didn't work, because we didn't have the money
    or was the political situation part of it?
    (iflm slating)
    In the same time, as you know, we strong --
    we worked very strongly and very vehemently to stop
    the deportation of Slovakia, which we succeeded.
    After the three last transports in September
    and the beginning of October, deportation really
    stopped in Slovakia till October 1944.
    That is nearly almost two years the deportations stopped.
    And there were only 20,000 Jews left?
    20,000.
    We think still that more, but based on the official numbers,
    it was only 20,000 left.
    Now, the question came up now, that after the fact, already,
    more or less, a little safe and secure, what now?
    And again, Weissmandel came with a big idea.
    And one, by one of the --
    It was after the news from Poland?
    After the news from Poland.
    And somehow, as I remember, we started now to receive it,
    which we didn't know up to that point,
    there's not only deportation from here,
    from Slovakia-- from Czechoslovakia,
    plus from Germany, but that deportation goes on
    from different other countries, like Belgium, France,
    and many other countries, too.
    That you knew?
    Yes.
    That time, we knew.
    But I can tell you, again, I know that the news came.
    Weissmandel brought IT us.
    But from there he received it and where the source was,
    I really don't know.
    Why I'm telling you, because that basically
    was induced the so-called Europa Plan,
    which was Weissmandel's idea.
    So one day, by one of the meeting,
    Weissmandel came with this plan and said, now,
    if after we succeeded to stop the deportation of Slovakia,
    why don't we try now to do the same thing
    and try now to stop deportation all over Europe.
    And that is what he called the Europa Plan.
    Europe plan.
    Europa Plan.
    Europe Plan.
    Europe Plan, Europa Plan.
    And now everybody, naturally, in the whole group
    said, now what do you mean?
    Can you imagine how much money it would cost?
    And he suddenly said, I can imagine.
    I would say, and I would go to Wisliceny and tell him,
    I give you, we give you, $2 million.
    The very moment he said the $2 million,
    you just couldn't believe what happened in this whole group.
    Everybody said, now, Rabbi, everything
    we knew already your great, crazy ideas,
    but that is really the craziest.
    Don't forget about it, that we are afraid,
    that if you go through something like that,
    you can eventually ruin, if it doesn't work.
    You can eventually ruin the menucha which we
    have here in Slovakia already.
    You can, what --
    We have been already a little bit peaceful.
    Ah, yes.
    Menucha-- you don't know what is menucha is?
    Yes, Yes, I do.
    No, and after, the rabbi said, let's give it a try.
    Andre should go up and see Wisliceny and submit it to him.
    Now, it was quite a big discussion.
    Everybody was very much against it.
    [INAUDIBLE]
    And the only one, Gisi Fleischmann, Gisi Fleischmann
    said, listen, we tried to, so often happened,
    that we told Rabbi Weissmandel, your crazy ideas,
    and these crazy ideas sometimes helped us,
    which we wouldn't have-- he wouldn't
    have thought possible to do.
    And after, Gisi Fleischmann, Rabbi Weissmandel, and myself,
    we had been for it.
    So we decided that we are going to submit it to Wisliceny.
    And his idea was to rescue all the Jews from [INAUDIBLE]??
    All the Jews--
    For $2 million.
    For $2 million.
    And even if you start now to make mathematics,
    it's $2 million are nothing.
    But they gave us the question how to get
    and who should give it to us.
    And Weissmandel's idea was, if we send now
    the news out to the world that deportation
    means extermination, then the $2 million will be here.
    There's no question about it.
    And Andre can go and say this and say that, promise this,
    and we are, we will see to it that it should [INAUDIBLE]..
    Andre is you.
    Andre is me, yes.
    And I really, following, again, the magic influence which
    Weissmandel had on me, I went up to Wisliceny
    and submitted to him.
    What did you say exactly?
    Exactly what Fleischmann told me again, that we [INAUDIBLE],,
    we have to do something else.
    Would they be interested, because he knows
    the Germans need some money.
    Would they be willing for we give them money,
    and they actually give us Jewish life, because the Jewish life
    is in their hands.
    And we have the money.
    So can we do a deal?
    And interesting, after that I told Wisliceny, he said,
    that is too big.
    I cannot say yes or no, and I cannot even submit it
    to Eichmann.
    But I have direct access and direct possibility
    to speak with Himmler.
    Because that is something which only Himmler
    could say yes or no.
    And sure enough, he called Himmler--
    In front of you?
    In front of [INAUDIBLE],, but not that time.
    That was only later.
    He said, let me think about it.
    I want to prepare it, and I give you a call.
    And a few days later, he called me.
    I should come in again to his office.
    And he said that he already spoke with Himmler,
    and Himmler and [INAUDIBLE] said no.
    Now, I told Wisliceny that, please,
    that must be absolutely sure, because I just cannot go back
    to my group telling them that you said that is true and was
    even accepted by Himmler, if it is not absolutely true.
    And he told me, now, wait a minute.
    If you want to have to prove that I really played fair,
    I call Berlin.
    Maybe I can get contact with Himmler, if he if,
    by chance, in his office.
    And I'll let you hear it.
    And sure enough, he called--
    Now, excuse me, I think that you made a mistake.
    Because you said that he told you that Himmler had said no.
    And so It was the other way around.
    No, no, no, no.
    [INAUDIBLE] Himmler said yes.
    Himmler said yes.
    He gave authorization to him to--
    he told me that Himmler gave him authorization to proceed.
    Now, I didn't believe it.
    Because it was so fantastic, that, again,
    here is a great idea of Weissmandel,
    that Himmler would be willing to make a deal with us
    to stop deportation in Europe.
    That was so fantastic, I just didn't believe it.
    So I ask him, you must give me some proof,
    that I can go back to my group and tell him, yes, that
    is really true.
    And that's why he proposed, OK, I'm going to call Berlin.
    And he really did.
    It was a real call?
    It wasn't a fake call in order to--
    It cannot be call.
    I don't know whether it was fake or not.
    That I cannot say.
    But I was there.
    He called.
    And I understood what he called.
    Give me a call me so and so, and Hauptfuhrer.
    I don't know what it was, Himmler there.
    And after he waited a little bit, he spoke with somebody.
    And he told me, gave me the second receiver
    and let me listen to it.
    And I listened to it.
    He spoke with somebody.
    He told me it was Himmler.
    You heard the voice?
    I heard the voice, naturally.
    And he said that here is a representative for the world,
    the Jewry again, and he wanted to be sure that can I
    proceed to discuss with him.
    And that voice again said, I told you so.
    Go ahead.
    Can you say this in German?
    [SPEAKING GERMAN] something like this.
    [GERMAN]
    Did the voice say [INAUDIBLE].
    The voice said [GERMAN].
    Proceed.
    Proceed.
    Now, again, whether it is really Himmler, that I don't know.
    I never heard, never heard his voice.
    But Wisliceny told me, you just heard what Himmler said.
    So what about the money?
    How did he talk to Himmler?
    He was respectful?
    Oh, very.
    Oh, sure.
    Very respectful.
    Did he say Reichsfuhrer?
    Reichsfuhrer?
    The details.
    I really don't remember.
    He spoke [? with ?] not only --
    How he even addressed him, I don't remember now.
    He must have said Reichsfuhrer, because that what he was.
    But that was the reason, too.
    After that, I told him, would you
    be permitting me next time to bring Gisi Fleischmann with me?
    And I did this because somehow, the intervention
    in my discussion with Wisliceny started
    to be so important, that I didn't want to carry alone
    the responsibility, because that was too big for me to,
    and I wanted to have somebody with me
    to hear all those things, which Wisliceny tells me.
    And I couldn't propose Weissmandel,
    because I wouldn't dare to go with Weissmandel
    into the German embassy.
    But with Gisi Fleischmann, it was no problem.
    You met Wisliceny where?
    In the German embassy?
    In the German embassy, yeah, all the time.
    He had one little house very near to the German embassy,
    which was part of the German embassy.
    And this is where I met all the time.
    And I ask him, would he permit that I introduce to him
    Gisi Fleischmann personally?
    And by some of the meeting, Gisi Fleischmann should be with me.
    And surprisingly, he said fine.
    Bring her.
    How was she, Gisi Fleischmann?
    Gisi Fleischmann was excellent.
    Really, if you would ask me, what is my opinion?
    The person who really was holding the group together
    and made a very fine working group, where everybody listens
    to each other, and some of the animosities
    disappeared, was only Gisi Fleischmann.
    She was a Zionist?
    She was a Zionist.
    She was the head of the [INAUDIBLE],,
    world congress for the --
    How did she do?
    Pardon?
    How did she look?
    No, she was not a pretty woman at all.
    She was a little stocky and a little stocky woman,
    but very beautiful smile and again, was typical.
    I would say, Gisi Fleischmann was partly what,
    in a woman, what Weissmandel was in men.
    She was a tremendously idealistic person,
    tremendously high morals, and she
    was willing to give her life for the Jewish cause, especially
    for the Zionist cause.
    So what I would say, was Weissmandel
    was on the orthodox side, in my opinion,
    Gisi Fleischmann was on the Zionist side, much more
    like all the others involved, much more like Dr. Neumann
    and much more the Dr. Winterstein.
    How old was she?
    She must have been, that time, maybe 45.
    45?
    Yeah.
    (film slating)
    The Europa Plan was our proposal to the Germans
    that for $2 million, that would stop deportation in Europe,
    including France, France, the Scandinavian countries,
    Hungary, in other words, all the different countries in Europe
    where he knew the deportation that this time was done.
    And for Poland, too, the Jews will remain in Poland.
    Yeah.
    And somewhere, I don't know how he arrived to this mathematics,
    that approximately one million Jews are still
    in these countries.
    And if we paid $2 million, we called
    this the so-called divine arithmetic
    from Rabbi Weissmandel, that for $2 million,
    that could stop the deportation.
    (film logistics - cut)
    (film slating)
    The Europa Plan was a proposal to the Germans
    to stop deportation all over Europe--
    the remaining Jews in Poland, in France, Scandinavian countries,
    Romania, Hungary, and many other places--
    And [INAUDIBLE] Poland?
    And so on.
    That's right.
    And that was what we submitted to Wisliceny.
    And Wisliceny was supposed to give
    this message, the proposal, to Himmler.
    And he did.
    And he said that he have authorization from Himmler
    to proceed and negotiate with us this whole Europa Plan.
    Because the importance of all the meetings now
    with Wisliceny, and I didn't want
    to have the whole responsibility for that--
    (film logistics - cut)
    (film slating)
    The Europa Plan was a proposal to the Germans
    to stop the deportation all over Europe, the remaining
    Jews in Poland, from France, Belgium,
    Scandinavian countries, and all the other countries where
    deportation was supposed to be.
    The idea was that we would pay for it.
    The world Jewry would pay for it $2 million.
    And that's what we call the divine arithmetic
    from Weissmandel, where he would be able to buy $2 apiece
    for the living Jews.
    Because these, for some, from somewhere,
    they had the information that all the remaining
    Jews in these European countries have been,
    more or less, a million.
    It was not very expensive to the [INAUDIBLE]??
    No, that was one of the reasons why
    Weissmandel was so, so upset.
    Because we knew that it is really nothing.
    And he wrote and Gisi Fleischmann
    wrote very, very heartbreaking appeals and letters,
    sent out all over the country.
    And he really thought that everybody
    would realize what a good deal that basically is,
    and the money will be available right away.
    But it was not.
    Yes.
    And what did you ask to the Germans to do?
    Because they said, yes, OK, we agree to the Europa Plan.
    This has been asked now, how we are going to finance it,
    how the whole situation is going to be?
    And we said that the first installment of $200,000
    would be given to him by Saly Mayer, in Switzerland.
    Saly Mayer was a representative of the --
    Representative for American Joint.
    And we thought that the American Joint would
    be able to quickest us to get this money together
    and that that might be proposed this way.
    But again, now, it was Weissmandel's and Gisi
    Fleischmann's idea.
    And we knew that the Europa Plan,
    even if it will be successful, will
    take a long time to realize.
    What should we do in between?
    And this is how the idea came about the children transport
    and to save 1,000 children from any of the concentration camp
    from Poland.
    I think it was supposed to be coming from Bialystok.
    No, but excuse me-- this idea of the children transport
    was given to Wisliceny, and it was a [? German ?]
    by who, by you?
    By me.
    The idea was that we must start now to find out,
    is Wisliceny able to perform what he's told us to perform.
    As a test.
    And that was really thought about as a test.
    Can he do it or can't he do it?
    And we proposed to him, that for this $200,000,
    he should show us that he is going
    to send to Israel, to Palestine, transport of 1,000 children.
    But did you have already the $200,000?
    No, we didn't.
    We hoped, that especially, if we will tell Saly Mayer, that
    is a children's transport which is supposed
    to go first to Theresienstadt, and from Theresienstadt
    to the Swiss border, that that would
    be strong enough and important enough
    to Saly Mayer and the others who are there,
    that without any delay, they will tell us, fine, do it.
    But Wisliceny was agreeable, and he said, OK, he
    is going to speak again with Berlin
    and try to find out whether something like this
    could be done.
    And to our big surprise, he came one day.
    He said, yes, we will do it.
    And the idea was that half of the money
    would have to be paid to him the time that the children arrived
    to Theresienstadt.
    And he said that he will assure us
    that we will be able to get from Jewish positions
    in Jewish leaders from Theresienstadt,
    they will tell us whether children arrived there or not.
    The truth of the matter is, that according to our information,
    really the children transport arrived to Theresienstadt.
    And the children received some special treatment
    and tried [? to ?] get into better shape
    to be sent to Switzerland.
    But in between, the money from Switzerland was not here.
    Because nobody really believed that it's true.
    And Saly Mayer, I think, wrote in a letter
    that he and the American Joint had the feeling
    that the Germans are playing with us.
    They have no intention to be sure
    they are going to get the money and after not going to deliver.
    So that the money was not here.
    And the day came that we promised
    to give a German envoy and the Swiss border
    these first $100,000, was not here,
    and we had to tell Wisliceny to--
    I think that first, we ask him to wait, to give us
    a date a little bit delayed.
    And even after delay the money was not here,
    we had to tell him the truth that we just
    don't have the money.
    Who said this?
    You?
    To?
    To Wisliceny?
    Yeah, and because in that time, only I
    had the direct contact with Wisliceny.
    Sometimes Gisi Fleischmann came with me.
    But especially, the outside correspondents
    and the outside in contact, in connection with the children
    action, was completely Weissmandel
    and Gisi Fleischmann's duty.
    And my duty was to give all the information to Wisliceny
    and bring back what Wisliceny and the other German people
    involved had to say.
    Later on, interesting enough, we really
    saw that the children transport didn't come,
    because we haven't been able to pay.
    Later on, in Nuremberg, Wisliceny
    made a statement that it did not came through,
    because the Mufti, the gang Mufti, from Jerusalem,
    was against it and objected to send children to Palestine.
    [? Israel ?] [INAUDIBLE] (film logistics - cut
    (film slating)
    Well, I want to tell you something
    about this story of the children transport
    who came from Bialystok to Theresienstadt.
    And I think this was in the winter of 1942.
    I think it was in December 1942, because this
    is one of the surprises of such a film.
    I had to come here to you, in Atlanta,
    to find the truth about--
    it's a very astonishing story of this transport.
    The first time I heard about it, this
    was when I went myself to Theresienstadt.
    And I was there with a Czech Jew who
    was a former inmate of the ghetto of Theresienstadt.
    And it was a winter day, very cold and foggy.
    And we visited the town of Theresienstadt [INAUDIBLE],,
    and so on.
    And he told me that a transport of children
    came from [INAUDIBLE].
    This means from the east.
    And generally, these are transports
    where all are rolling from west to east and not
    from east to west.
    And these transports came from the east.
    It was a transport of Polish children.
    As they arrived in Theresienstadt,
    they were gathered in a special block,
    and they were cut off from the population of the ghetto.
    And the Germans asked for some doctors and nurses
    to volunteer, in order to take care of these children.
    And there were some who did so.
    And he told me the following story.
    As they send the children to the bath, to the disinfection,
    and suddenly, the people of the ghetto
    heard a huge scream of the children.
    They said they screamed, gas, gas, when they heard the word
    disinfection.
    Well, this means that they had an idea already,
    in Poland already, in Bialystok, about what was going on.
    And this was during the winter of 1942.
    And the children stayed for about one
    month in Theresienstadt with the nurses
    and with the doctors who had volunteered
    to take care of them.
    And after one month, the children, the doctors,
    and the nurses were shipped.
    --
    Were shipped.
    (film slating)
    One day, after about one month, the children
    were gathered again with the doctors and the nurses
    as they boarded a train.
    And the train was bound to Auschwitz.
    And as soon as they arrived in Auschwitz,
    the thousand children and the nurses and the doctors
    were immediately gassed.
    And when this story was told to me in Theresienstadt.
    The man who did it didn't understand what happened.
    For him, it was an ununderstandable story,
    a complete mystery.
    And after a while, I made for the film,
    too, an interview with the last president
    of the Judenrate of Theresienstadt,
    also the Judenaelteste, Dr. Benjamin Murmelstein.
    And I asked him if he knew--
    He knew about it.
    If he knew the truth with the--
    did he know?
    And he just told me the same, but he
    didn't know the reasons why.
    You are the one who were, here in Atlanta, to give me
    the key of this mystery.
    And you think that it is because you didn't pay to--
    this Wisliency is a first installment of $100,000
    that the children were shipped to Auschwitz and gassed.
    No doubt about.
    That time, already that what made us really
    the first and very, very angry to see
    this absolute misunderstanding about our situation
    and the lack of confidence which we seemingly had in us.
    Because Gisi, Gisi Fleischmann, Rabbi Weissmandel, and myself,
    too, have been saying, so, God damn it, here we
    are doing nearly the incredible.
    And those who have nothing else to do just
    sent us a few hundred thousand dollars.
    Don't believe us and be covered for formalities
    are not helping us to make this so-called saving action.
    You say formalities.
    You mean that the people of the Joint,
    and particularly Saly Mayer in Switzerland,
    didn't understand at all what was at stake.
    I think that, because if he would have understood it,
    it was impossible that he would ask for so many formalities
    before he's willing to give the money.
    What did he ask exactly?
    He said that time that Gisi Fleischmann wrote him
    that according to our information,
    the children arrived in Theresienstadt.
    And the first hundred thousand dollars should be given.
    And again, some answer came from Saly Mayer
    which was sounding that, in his opinion,
    the Germans are playing with us.
    It is not true, and he cannot believe that--
    simply the money was not here because he
    didn't believe in it.
    And what makes us angry so, that here
    was Gisi Fleischmann, a representative
    of American Joint in WIZO an old Zionist worker.
    Then he was Weissmandel who was in the absolutely the finest
    reputation in orthodoxy.
    And then myself who everybody knew that I have connections
    to the Germans.
    And up to now, everything what we did was true,
    and it was, we thought, checked and rechecked that it was true.
    And suddenly, in the most crucial moment, that we already
    had the first time saving 1,000 children,
    suddenly we couldn't confirm, couldn't implement it,
    because Saly Mayer was not willing to give us $100,000.
    Because of this angriness, I think
    that was the time that Gisi Fleischmann too
    and Weissmandel started to write really very
    angry letters outside.
    And I very much like to quote from one of the letters
    which Gisi Fleischmann wrote where
    she lets us the following.
    And I want to read it first for you in German.
    [SPEAKING GERMAN]
    Would you translate it?
    Which means, Dear uncle, my--
    Excuse me.
    Saly Mayer was called Uncle.
    It was a code name.
    That was a code name.
    That's right.
    I don't accuse you, dear Uncle, that you don't
    have an understanding for us, and still
    speaking about old formulas which
    so often in the history of mankind,
    but especially in the story of the Jews,
    made it impossible to say what he wanted to say.
    But Weissmandel, I heard, I didn't read his letters,
    have been even much, much more beautiful and much more
    emotional.
    And we hoped that even if that suddenly didn't came through
    that we would be able to say and go
    back again to the Europa Plan and make that really a reality.
    What Wisliency exactly told you about the gassing
    of the children?
    Wisliency simply said that at the very moment if you cannot
    pay, so you are not going to get the children.
    What happens that year and if you didn't know
    I don't know whether Wisliency knew
    that what you told me right now or he didn't want
    to go tell us, I don't know.
    In truth of the matter is if, I remember right,
    we didn't even press.
    We have been so absolutely stunned
    that we couldn't bring up this $200,000 for 1,000 children,
    that we completely dropped it.
    And you couldn't find the money with the so-called--
    [INTERPOSING VOICES]
    No, because they didn't have that type of money.
    Even if you would take out everything what Slovakia had,
    we just couldn't get it together.
    We hoped that through the Gisi Fleischmann, as you know,
    was twice in Budapest and tried to get money
    and tried to get money from there.
    From the Jews from Hungary.
    From the Jews from Hungary because we
    knew that the Jews from Hungary have been very, very rich,
    and even $200,000 would have been easy to get it.
    It was rather quiet at the time.
    And that time, it was quiet, and they
    didn't believe that the whole trouble going
    to be in Hungary, too.
    And we told them, don't try now to think, and don't be naive.
    There's not going to happen to you, too,
    so that everything what you would give us
    would be a saving action for different children.
    But Hungary, again, wanted to send us money officially,
    goes to the National Bank.
    And from the Hungarian National Bank,
    send it to the Slovak National Bank.
    You mean that the Jews.
    The Jews, yeah.
    So they wanted to do the thing in a bureaucratic way.
    In a bureaucratic way.
    And they don't understand that we cannot use that type
    of money.
    So that really we just didn't have the money,
    but we really hoped that by having children,
    by having that first test, what can Wisliency
    really do to implement would be important enough in connection
    with the whole Europa plan to put it down and later have
    time enough to bring the $2 million,
    which was supposed to be given to them for the Europa plan.
    Did Gisi Fleischmann told you exactly
    about her trip in Hungaria?
    How was she received?
    Oh, how she was received in Hungary?
    Oh, yeah, sure.
    She was first, one of the first visit
    was and just like Hungarians, I know
    that every pomp and every glory was given to her.
    And she told us after that she--
    The Jews from Hungary.
    The Jews from Hungary.
    That Freudiger and Kasztner and all
    lived, so that it's again the orthodoxy
    and the Zionist had a wonderful meeting with her.
    There was a big dinner with all the ladies
    there with beautiful dresses and the diamonds and so on,
    just like in a good old time like nothing
    would go on in the whole world.
    Unbelievable.
    Unbelievable.
    She came back exactly, and she said the same word
    that she just couldn't believe that in the same time
    as we are going through that type of difficulty a little bit
    away from the border, that kind of behavior
    went on in the Hungarian Jews.
    They gave her a big dinner.
    They gave her a big dinner and a big pomp and big speeches
    and promises that they are going to make a fundraising.
    But after the fundraising was promised,
    it was said, yes, brown fundraising,
    but the money we can send to you only on the official channels.
    We cannot give it to you for underground activities
    in underground channels.
    But why, because they were afraid?
    Because it was not legal?
    What?
    But because it was illegal.
    And therefore, they foolishly thought
    that they are going to hurt their position if that
    would do some illegal actions.
    To harm their position.
    To harm their own position.
    And Gisi Fleischmann tried to explain to them
    that it is absolutely, first of all, not true.
    That it would not harm, and just the contrary.
    They would eventually be able to see similar things
    and to do similar things in Hungary
    if the same action comes to them to, too.
    Yes, and one year and a half later, it was after.
    A half a year later, it happened what
    we had a feeling that whether they
    are able to stop deportation and make it not only to a Slovak
    venture, but the Slovak sample, an example,
    could be carried to the other countries, too.
    Yes.
    And there is something which I find very, very interesting
    and very unique because these ideas or the Europa plan,
    this means to save all the Jews who could be saved.
    Remained in Europe at that time.
    Yes.
    Without choosing who will be saved.
    The idea was to save everybody.
    Yeah.
    Now that is really interesting for me
    because we, in Slovakia, we felt that we have been really
    not after saving a selected persons or selected families.
    (film slating)
    I think that this Europa plan as fantastic as it
    can be as well as something unique because the idea was
    to save everybody, not to choose,
    not to select a sample of Jews.
    No?
    That correct.
    The other group, the working group's idea was that we cannot
    play God.
    God, you mean.
    Pardon?
    God.
    God, yeah, we cannot play God.
    And that why we all the time said
    we speak about the communities.
    We speak about the Jewish community
    in the different European countries
    without making selections.
    And that was, basically, the big moral difference
    between how we worked and how the Hungarian Jews worked.
    Because from the beginning, we heard about it
    that Kasztner and even Freudiger,
    too, started to put together a special transport, I think,
    for 1,600 or 2,000 people.
    No, no, no.
    It was, yeah, 1,600.
    1,600.
    Yes.
    And we heard that, from the beginning,
    they tried to make selection, and not only selection
    from some special meritable Jews who
    merited for some reason, many of the rich Jews who
    had been able to pay for it, then selected Zionist leaders
    and selected artists and so-called high intellectuals.
    And their own families, too.
    And their own families, too.
    And we had been absolutely against that type of action.
    And I think, if I not I am not mistaken,
    even Wisliency told me once that he appreciated
    our fact that the only special transport we asked
    was children, a group children.
    But we never ask anybody anything for ourselves,
    and we never ask anything for our friends or some selected
    individuals.
    And that why we, very often, even wrote
    to Kasztner and Freudiger that there should follow the way how
    we had been working because this is already, even
    from moral standpoint that I had seen,
    and that is the accepted route from the Germans, too.
    And that should not spoil it because we
    are afraid that that just wouldn't work in the ways
    as we had we hat it in mind.
    And the Hungarian Jews, I mean, the Hungarian Judenrat,
    as a matter of fact, Kasztner, Philip von Freudiger, all
    these people, when they were already what you mean,
    when they were in negotiations with Eichmann.
    This was much later.
    It was in 1944 when the deportations from Hungaria
    were going at full speed.
    They decided to select--
    it's what they called the kind of Ark of Noah of Jews.
    That's right.
    And knew it was completely it was a way around.
    The other way around.
    We didn't want to make an Ark of Noah.
    We didn't want to select anybody.
    We wanted to have the community, and we
    thought if for any reason that wouldn't go, then
    we have time enough to arrange later to make some compromise.
    But from the beginning, our aim was
    to stop deportation for the different Jewish communities
    in different European States.
    But what do you think it was say that one
    of the main concern of Weissmandel
    and generally speaking of the Orthodox Jews
    was to save the Orthodox Jews mostly for Weissmandel.
    It was said that he wanted to save mostly
    the people of the yeshiva.
    I didn't have this impression, though.
    I had the impression that Weissmandel, too, was not only
    he, but he was one of those who said we should not play God
    by selecting, that we are going to speak
    about the Jewish community.
    I don't think so that he even he never proposed.
    I don't know of any case where he proposed in any saving
    action to make special mention about the Orthodox Jews.
    Is formula, we cannot play God?
    That's a formula.
    That's correct.
    That's Weissmandel's formula that we cannot select,
    we cannot play God, and let we speak about
    for the communities.
    And you think that he would have preferred
    to have the whole community destroyed
    than to save just a small part?
    The idea was that if it doesn't work,
    we are not able to save the whole community.
    And the Germans would say we cannot give you one million
    Jews, that we will be able to give you 500,000 Jews.
    That it's time enough to tell, OK.
    So first, send us all the children,
    then send us another category.
    But again, we never showed in terms
    of families or selected personal friends
    and not in selecting our own families.
    It must have been really horrible
    when you didn't get the money for a while.
    No, it was more than horrible.
    That was the time really that all of us
    we have been just flabbergasted that I didn't understand
    that $2 for one Jewish life would not be able because we
    had been thinking that the not to believe us
    was not enough argument from the other side.
    Our argument was go ahead, put the money, and give it a try
    and see why it is true.
    Then deal with it by trying it out all these children action.
    If you give us $200,000 and if the 1,000 children come,
    then you will be able to see, yes, the whole Europa plan
    is something a reality.
    And that what makes us very angry
    that not even the smaller part of the whole plan
    was made impossible because of the bureaucracy which
    Saly Mayer represented in Switzerland.
    Because there is a very astonishing letter
    of Weissmandel which he wrote, as a matter of fact,
    much later already in the letter, I mean, in 1944.
    A was very intelligent and very answer
    is literally written in a complete Talmudic way.
    He says even if the Germans wanted to save us,
    we have to play as if they meant--
    Yeah, they meant to, that's right.
    Yes.
    And did he talk to you about this point?
    We have to act as if the German--
    Would be really doing what they promised.
    Yes.
    Yeah, that's right.
    All of us.
    He said so, and everybody said so that that
    is one of the reasons which was incredible to us
    that we had been willing to give it a try
    naturally because it was part of our whole activity,
    that for the crucial moment of our activity because we thought
    that if the children are really go through Switzerland,
    and even if they wouldn't be able to send to Israel,
    at least they are in Switzerland.
    And it would not be nothing, nothing wrong,
    so that eventually we would wait till the end
    of the war in Switzerland.
    But do you think that is a truth will be known one day?
    I mean, what do you think you personally today
    that the Germans were playing with you
    or that they were sincere?
    In that way, absolutely, we have been convinced,
    and I'm convinced now that, too, that at that point,
    the Germans were sincere.
    And just because we couldn't do what we promised,
    then the Germans started now to back up and instead
    of doing and playing with us in connection
    with the Europa plan, started to a little bit to be lukewarm.
    And I think a few months later, Wisliency told us, too,
    that Himmler is not going to agree
    on the further negotiation of the Europa plan.
    Yeah, because there is a very strong argument against you,
    I mean, against your belief in the German's sincerity.
    It is completely true that in all the extermination
    camps, in Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, all the Jews came.
    They didn't know that they were going to die,
    and they came with money, with jewelry, with valuables,
    with dollars, with everything.
    And it is true that the people were at the entrance of the gas
    chamber, they were robbed of everything they had.
    And these extermination camps were
    absolutely full with money, with valuables, and so on.
    And it was not $200,000, but millions and millions
    and millions of dollars.
    And why did the Germans need your money,
    the many of the Europa plan?
    Do you see the argument?
    I see the argument, too, but I would say German,
    Germany at that time was really in a little bit harder
    pressed for many other places.
    And very possibly, that that's time to buy certain goods,
    they needed dollars.
    And interesting enough, you remember
    that later on after the Europa plan was transferred
    from Slovakia to Hungary, even the Germans
    changed the conditions from the Europa plan.
    And instead of money, they asked different goods.
    Yes, but you cannot--
    but this Europa plan at the time,
    because the question was only to rescue the Hungarian Jew.
    No, it was it was still with us because you remember Wisliency,
    after he left Slovakia went to Greece.
    But immediately, every month, once he came back,
    and we had a meeting, Gisi Fleischmann and myself,
    met Wisliency.
    And we constantly kept him asking that we should not
    forget about the Europa plan.
    Wisliency went to Greece in order to organize--
    Organize and deportations.
    And deportations of Jews.
    That's right.
    To ship them to Auschwitz.
    That's right.
    How could you go and negotiating with Wisliency
    when you saw the transport of Greek Jews
    passing Slovakia, as a matter of fact, because it was a way.
    How could you believe in Wisliency
    when you saw in the same times as the deportations were
    going on?
    No, that from the Greek deportation
    was, for us, a question mark. we still
    didn't understand why it happened that way.
    Wisliency--
    (film slating)
    I guess, my question is, how could you
    go on believing in the sincerity of Wisliency
    because Wisliency left Slovakia for Greece in February 1943.
    And he was a organizer with the deportations of Greek Jews
    from Thessaloniki.
    And they were all shipped to Auschwitz.
    And you say that Wisliency was coming
    back every month from Greece to Slovakia
    on the transport of the Greek Jews.
    As a matter of fact, had to pass--
    Went through Slovakia.
    --through Slovakia.
    This means that you witnessed this.
    How could you go on believing in the sincerity of this man?
    Now, that for the following, after in Greece,
    we didn't have direct connection neither to the Zionist,
    neither to the orthodoxy.
    So we ask Wisliency that the moment he comes to Greece he
    should get now and find out who are
    the leaders of the Zionists, who are
    the leaders of the assimilated Jews,
    and who are the leaders of the Orthodox Jews.
    You asked him.
    We asked him, sure.
    But you were in a very close relationship.
    That time, in a very close relation.
    We have been speaking with Wisliency, both of us,
    Gisi Fleischmann and myself, just like in the same way
    as I'm speaking now with you.
    Unbelievable.
    And he came back, and we ask him that.
    What happened?
    Why couldn't you do the same thing what we did here
    and you helped us to do it here?
    And Wisliency's answer all time, you cannot compare
    the situation with Greece.
    And he made us believe that he had
    so strict orders and the man somebody
    was there on top of him.
    He was in Slovakia.
    He was the only [INAUDIBLE] for the Jewish question
    on the German side.
    But in Greece, he had, as he told us, two others.
    And he told us that he absolutely
    couldn't make any contact with the Jewish leadership
    in Greece.
    That is for us a question mark all the time it was why.
    He never gave us the answer, and we never found out,
    not even after the war.
    But his credibility--
    But the credibility, granted, the idea
    was following saying we have a feeling
    that the credibility from our side was not that good neither.
    We didn't with any of our promises to them.
    And that's why we took that.
    We said all the time, even if that happened in Greece,
    we still would like to save if we are not able to save Greece.
    So there are still others here who should be saved,
    and we cannot give up just because in Greece it
    didn't work.
    So that's why, for instance, even Weissmandel ask me,
    I remember now, to tell Wisliency
    that his credibility was very much hurt
    and the word Jew is going to put that in a black mark for him
    because he did deportation in spite of in the same time
    that we started to negotiate with him for the Europa plan.
    But that was all.
    And interesting enough, really, I just
    don't understand why we couldn't make any contact with not
    even the Jewish people there.
    Weissmandel himself had no contacts with him in Greece.