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Oral history interview with Jerzy Orwovski

Oral History | Digitized | Accession Number: 1995.A.1285.39 | RG Number: RG-50.149.0039

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    Oral history interview with Jerzy Orwovski
    Transcript
    Jurek Orwovsky, tape one.
    Jurek, would you be good enough to tell me
    something about your family background in Poland
    before war broke out?
    For instance, if you start with your grandfather,
    what sort of family did he belong to?
    What, grandfather?
    Taking father's line, lived in, before the First World War,
    for many, many years in Russia.
    In fact, in-- not very far from Volga river.
    His predecessors were given land by Polish kings for duty
    to the crown, and moved from Poland
    to the Ukraine, what was later known,
    and settled there, and, in fact, on the land.
    And I think that was about 16th century,
    and after Poland defeated the Turks and Tartars under Genghis
    Khan.
    How long they were--
    and in fact, they settled there and lived
    until Russian revolution.
    So am I right in thinking he would have been a noble man
    if he was given these lands?
    Yes.
    Well, he was given a crest, and should I
    call a forename, or a double barrel name.
    And what was his name?
    [? Lubitsch. ?] [? Lubitsch, ?] yes.
    And then he was more or less knighted by king.
    Belonged then to a slightly higher upper class of citizens.
    That permitted him to form his own private army with which
    he supported the king.
    Well, there were only perhaps 50 or 60 people.
    I don't know how many, but I wouldn't call it an army.
    But that was at the time where king gained support
    from his noblemen who organized their own private units
    for combining in the wars against--
    It is like the boyars in Russia, isn't it?
    Yes, yes.
    Similar thing.
    While in Russia, obviously, they were very much
    assimilated there, second and third generation.
    They went to Russian schools and, in fact,
    one of my predecessors was taking part
    in the building of the Trans-Siberian Railway which,
    as far as I gather, was built by Russians
    by design and by Polish engineers in fact.
    That sort of life carried on until the Russian revolution.
    That was 1905 or something, where my grandfather attended
    university in Leningrad.
    This being the pre-revolution period.
    There were many student associations
    which were against tsar, but pro-revolutionary.
    Mostly, they were socialists.
    And during that period, there were quite a number
    of uprisings in Poland against tsar, against Russia.
    And father-- grandfather, in fact, I'm talking about--
    returned to Poland.
    As it happened, there were some differences between him
    and his older brother on political ground differences.
    Whereby my grandfather's father was pro-tsar,
    and my grandfather-- oh, I'm talking about one--
    was totally against.
    He was trying to go with the go ahead
    movement of the day, and the socialism, and so on.
    And as a result of a number of probably quite
    heated conversations, my grandfather
    gave up all his inheritance in Russia.
    And he says, I'm settling in Poland.
    Forget about what we own in Russia.
    And in fact-- in fact, settled in New Warsaw,
    where he met my grandmother.
    She was from a real socialist background.
    Her father's brother, named Daszynski, quite well-known
    socialist personality in Poland in those days.
    And they decided to start life anew.
    Being educated in agriculture and forestry
    at Leningrad University, he thought
    the best way would be to start a new life in this environment.
    And hence, he accumulated and developed
    new business, acquired new property,
    which later on my father received from him.
    What was your father's name?
    My father's?
    That's the same as mine.
    Orwovsky?
    Yes.
    Did this still have the sort of connotations of nobility then?
    Yes.
    It's called crest, or in Polish, herb, H-E-R-B,
    which represents--
    I show you.
    Like I have one here.
    Francine -- has a ring now from me on this.
    Well, that would be the grandfather's background.
    Where were you born?
    I was born in a town called Lodz.
    My father was in the army at the time.
    What, fighting in the army?
    No, that was after war.
    That was after war, obviously.
    And then-- but he was still serving.
    And then mother, at that time, did some teaching and singing.
    Playing piano, that sort of thing.
    And she lived with her parents in Lodz.
    That's where I was born.
    Where did you go to school?
    Well, I didn't go to school until I was about 12 or 13.
    A good time, I should say.
    What--
    Not at all?
    Didn't you go to any school until then?
    No, not at all.
    We have a governess at home and a tutor.
    And apparently, as mother says, I
    was very keen myself to learn reading, and drawing,
    and writing.
    So I managed to read and write much before any time there
    was school.
    But nevertheless, I didn't go to so-called primary school.
    The governess and tutor prepared me and my sister,
    who is one year and a half younger than me.
    We were prepared to go straight to the secondary school.
    Was this quite usual for some families to do this?
    No, it wasn't.
    I can't remember no more than two
    or three other friends of ours did that.
    Were you a wealthy family by comparison with others,
    would you say?
    I wouldn't say wealthy, but comfortable, maybe.
    So were there just two children in your family, then?
    Two, yes.
    Yourself and your sister?
    I have another brother, but he came much later.
    I see.
    So you went to school when you were 13,
    and what was your father doing at this time?
    What was his occupation?
    Well, he was educated in the same trade as my grandfather.
    That means agriculture.
    He attended, to start with, technical school, and then
    university, which brought him with a degree in agriculture.
    And he was connected, to begin with,
    with a number of large estates where he managed large estates
    for very wealthy people then with, say, thousands of acres.
    And eventually, he acquired his own land, and forest, and house
    where we settled permanently.
    And that whereabouts was that?
    Was near Pulawy, which is in central Poland.
    And was that your only home, or did you
    have a townhouse, as well?
    Well, townhouse, it was a quite big house.
    It was, what, four stories tall, a sort of town--
    how would you explain?
    I wouldn't call it a block of flats.
    But a big-- quite a big place.
    There were, I think, about 12 or 18 separate flats in it,
    or four or five stories tall.
    And that was owned by him and his brother.
    And as it happened, both my father and his brother
    were educated in the same field.
    That means agriculture and forestry.
    And they both together joined their resources and knowledge
    to build up business.
    There was yet another uncle and two aunts.
    And so when you were 13, were you sent away to school?
    Yes.
    To a boarding school?
    I was sent immediately to boarding school, which I hated.
    And once I escaped, then mother had to come and stay
    with me for a period of time.
    In fact, I was simply ill with the lack of parents,
    and company, and so on.
    And on advice of a doctor, in fact,
    she came and stopped with me for about two months, I think.
    So she was also a lodger at a house
    next to the boarding school.
    Well, could you tell me what religion you were?
    Religion?
    Yes.
    Roman Catholic.
    Roman Catholic.
    I see.
    And when you were at school, did you
    have any plans for your career when you left school?
    Did you know what you wanted to do?
    Not really.
    Well, yes.
    I wanted to be a pilot, whatever happens.
    How old were you when war broke out?
    17.
    Did you know anything about these sort of circumstances
    leading to war?
    Were you sort of politically aware at that time?
    Well, to a certain extent, I was.
    In fact, about a year before the war,
    there were all these sort of clouds
    gathering over Czechoslovakia, and Austria, and so on.
    There was-- Germany invaded Latvia when
    they took the port of Klaipeda.
    I don't know if you know the name.
    And generally, people were aware that something
    is going to happen.
    We also knew that Polish government was doing everything
    to avoid war, and at the same time, secure some friendship.
    Hence, we were aware that the negotiations
    with England and France about possible defense.
    And in fact, with that sort of background,
    we were not afraid of war at all.
    We would say perhaps Germans would be so frightened they
    wouldn't attack.
    And even if they did, they would finish a couple of weeks time.
    Can you remember the day war did break out what you were doing?
    Yes.
    Where were you?
    I was at home in the country.
    It was very early morning, 4:00 perhaps,
    when there was an announcement on the radio that Germany
    attacked.
    Father brought the news.
    And in fact, it was so early that we all got up.
    It was still almost--
    it wasn't sort of a bright day.
    That particular morning was foggy and cloud,
    but we heard all the German bombers going overhead.
    Not very far, there was a quite large fortress and a complex
    of airfields on which defensive forces were gathered,
    and Germans were attacking it.
    That was about 30 miles from us.
    We heard bombing and so on.
    How were-- how near to the border were you?
    Whereabouts were you then in Poland?
    We were right in the middle of Poland.
    We were good 300 miles from the border.
    And how far from Warsaw would you have been?
    100 kilometers.
    That means 80 miles.
    Can you remember how you felt?
    Oh, very excited.
    How about your parents?
    Did you get any impression of--
    Well, I remember mother was worried.
    We had grandmother with us.
    She was, too.
    And we had one aunt with us.
    She was married to a pilot, and they
    used to-- they lived in Warsaw almost on the airfield.
    And about a week or 10 days before war, she was evacuated.
    Families were sent away from the area which
    could be possibly bombed, and she was staying with us.
    So all ladies were a little bit agitated.
    Father organized local anti-air raid defenses,
    and I was running around excited trying to see first German.
    How long was it--
    And I was not [? alive. ?]
    And how long was it before you saw your first German?
    It was a good three weeks before I saw first German.
    What was happening, within a week,
    we realized that Germans were going ahead much faster
    than we anticipated or we dreamed about it.
    There was nothing happening on the Western front in France.
    They were announcement on radio that already Germany
    is being bombed by RAF, and that the Maginot Line didn't sort of
    remain silent.
    And French are attacking from the west.
    So we thought, oh well, perhaps another day, another day.
    And that kept going on and on until Germans
    were reported within about 20 miles from us,
    and we were evacuated.
    That means all family, all aunts, and granny,
    and everything else, dogs and cats.
    And you took your things with you,
    did you-- furniture and possessions?
    Only on the light sort of cases--
    traveling cases and clothing.
    Mostly food.
    And we had three large horse-drawn carts
    loaded with belongings, and people sitting on it.
    Some other people also joining us.
    And we went east.
    We went east to start with about 30 miles, stopped.
    Did you have anywhere to go to in the east?
    Why did you go in particular--
    Not really.
    You were just fleeing?
    Idea was to go beyond the river Bug, B-U-G,
    which was apparently a dividing line agreed
    between Russia and Germany.
    as a division of the country-- between those two countries,
    those two powers.
    And we are trying to get as near as possible to this line.
    Well, this line of Bug, so-called Curzon Line
    in international language, provided division
    between Russia and Germany.
    And because Poland had a peace treaty and non-aggression
    agreement with Russia.
    20 or 25 years, well, it was.
    Everybody imagined that that part of the country
    would be peaceful enough for people who flee,
    or who are bombed out, excuse me,
    to be able to settle over there.
    As it happened, unexpectedly, and completely contrary
    to any imagination of various people,
    Russia attacked from the east.
    And we found ourselves between German and Russian armies.
    And we had to take the decision then of father,
    Where do you want to go?
    Who is better friend?
    And we decided that we have to go back.
    And it was quite an extraordinary arrangement
    because we were already on the east side of the border.
    And German army was standing on the west bank of the river.
    There was a bridge.
    In fact, pontoon bridge made by the army.
    And there were a number of people
    going back from the eastern territories back
    into Western Poland.
    And Germans were very interested.
    Why did they return?
    Who are they?
    Because I think at that time was agreement
    between Russia and Germany that all refugees
    who were in the Eastern Poland should stay there.
    And we were afraid that we may be turned around,
    turned back by Germans.
    And father, while approaching German post,
    ask this German in German language,
    does he want us to go left or right?
    Which means left will be to return to Russian--
    excuse me, I have a bit of cold, excuse me--
    Or right, which would allow us to proceed back home.
    And this German sentry, when he heard German language,
    said, right, go to, and we went to home.
    Because your father spoke fluent German, did he?
    He did speak German, yes.
    Yes.
    Did you speak German, as well?
    No.
    Well, I learned about four years at school.
    Had you had any English then?
    Did you have any English language?
    No.
    No, but there was optional tuition in English,
    which I attended several times.
    But not having immediate use for it, somehow was neglected by me.
    So going back to this occasion when you said left or right
    to the German, was there the first time
    you'd seen the Germans?
    That was the first time I saw German, yes.
    What did you think when you were going back across the bridge?
    How did you feel when you were approaching these Germans?
    Well, I didn't-- in fact, I didn't have any sort of--
    there was no fright.
    There was-- rather, I was inquisitive to see
    what they look like.
    And I was very impressed by the equipment,
    by the quite well tailored uniforms, steel helmets.
    There were plenty of tanks about,
    which were very interesting.
    Had you seen any actual fighting when you were going east?
    You know, what signs of the war had you actually seen or heard?
    Only bombing-- strafing on the roads by German bombers.
    Did you experience that yourself?
    Yes, yes, yes.
    At least twice we had to scramble off our vehicles,
    and run into fields, and lie down while we were strafed.
    And on one occasion, we met a German tank.
    It was a funny coincidence because we didn't realize
    Germans went as far as that.
    We're still going east.
    That was before river, before we crossed the river.
    And we didn't realize Germans were going ahead so fast,
    and there was a tank standing in the field narrow field road.
    And father was rather dubious.
    Shall we go, shan't we?
    And I noticed this black--
    sorry, this white cross on a black background on the turret.
    And, you know, in my big naive, I said, oh, that must be Swiss.
    [LAUGHS]
    And in fact, we went then--
    in fact, I went myself to start with just about
    to clamber on it.
    And appeared to be nobody inside.
    To my recollections, this tank wasn't damaged.
    It was in perfect condition.
    But if there were Germans, they were inside,
    and they didn't look out.
    I didn't see them at all.
    So I said to my father, I said, Daddy, don't worry.
    He is Swiss, perhaps, or Red Cross, or something.
    And we just passed this tank, went ahead.
    And about half an hour later, there
    was a lot of shooting going on, and quite heavy artillery fire,
    which we later were told that the Polish infantry attacked
    that tank.
    And there was a battle in the area.
    But that was the nearest to the battle we've been.
    Did you have any idea yourself of the strength
    of the German forces compared with the Polish?
    No.
    No.
    I thought they were much stronger.
    And you-- what did you feel about Britain and France
    at this time?
    You said earlier on in the war that you thought immediately--
    you had reports that they were coming to your aid.
    Well, we were-- personally, I had quite an admiration
    to the RAF.
    Being aviation minded, I read a lot of books and magazines
    which were available before the war.
    And the RAF, in my mind, in my imagination,
    was the top mighty service where there were thousands of bombers,
    thousands of fighters.
    And if they start moving, nobody will stop them.
    So this aspect of being defeated never came to my mind at all.
    It became more dismal when Russians came in.
    Because at that time, I didn't realize
    how wicked the alignment between Russia and Germany
    was at the time.
    In fact, I didn't realize Poland was divided already
    before the war started between Russia and Germany.
    Do you think most people felt that-- most Polish people felt
    that when Russia came in?
    I would certainly say so, yes.
    It was quite sort of--
    how shall I explain--
    depressive news that was.
    There was something which wasn't happiness at all.
    Although Russians were saying that they invaded
    only because they didn't want Germans to take whole Poland so
    they could have something themselves.
    How did you personally, as a young 17-year-old,
    how did you view the Germans as a race, as a nation?
    Can you remember?
    Well, I knew, and I was told by many people,
    including at school, that they were quite hostile to Poland.
    But I, on a personal basis, I have no reason
    to view them that way.
    I was more or less waiting for my experience
    and then judged them from that sort of point of view.
    And how about the Russians?
    I didn't see Russians then.
    And in fact, I didn't see Russians until the end of war.
    How did you feel about Russians then?
    Well, the dislike of Russians were more or less
    born within me.
    All my family suffered most because of Russian occupation--
    because of Russian persecution by tsars,
    and later, by communists.
    So that was very deeply, you know--
    This is going back to your grandfather's time
    that you told us about?
    Yes.
    Whatever happened to my family, it was caused by Russians.
    And I mean in a big way.
    Jurek Orwovsky, tape two.
    Jurek, could you please tell me some of your experiences
    during the war?
    What, for instance, did you do when you returned home
    from Eastern Poland in 1939--
    September 1939?
    Well, upon return home, that was middle of October 17--
    sorry, 1939.
    That was normally time to go to school.
    In fact, month and a half past since school supposed to start.
    And upon return home, we found that schools
    are being closed permanently by German authorities who
    already settled in our area.
    There was no alternative, just to stay around at home
    and find if there are any other means of continuing education.
    In fact, around Christmas that year,
    a number of teachers who taught me before outbreak of war
    organized a number of small groups
    of children who call on teachers at their homes.
    And a number of hours daily were spent
    either recapping previous year or advancing ahead
    with the material.
    That lasted for about six to seven months,
    and then it had to stop because Germans apparently
    found out that this is taking place and demanded closure.
    You were living outside Warsaw then in your country home?
    That was out in Warsaw, yes.
    What other evidence was there of Germans?
    Did you have Germans billeted in your village or near you at all?
    Well, in fact, they were billeted in our house.
    The house was divided into more or less half.
    And we were living in one half.
    Another half was taken up by Germans.
    It was not a front line unit.
    Equivalent of a transport command,
    about 180 German soldiers.
    They were not all in our house, luckily.
    [LAUGHS] But they were billeted in the area.
    And officer and a number of other ranks
    were stationed in our house.
    And they had a office.
    There was a telephone station and radio communications
    set with the high command.
    And in fact, life went on with the Germans much easier
    than many people imagined.
    I was going to ask what your relationship with them
    would have been.
    Did you speak to them?
    Well, as a matter of fact, yes, quite a lot.
    They were quite elderly people who were in their 50s,
    and they were really second line of German army.
    A number of them were invalids from the First World War
    and people who couldn't be 100% fit.
    Their behavior was much more correct than we expected even.
    And while sitting at home doing nothing,
    watching what's happening around, I learned to play chess.
    I was taught by one of the Germans,
    and they taught me how to play mouth harmonica, in fact.
    [LAUGHS]
    So as you see, relations were not terribly hostile.
    Generally, people kept apart from soldiers.
    There were no sort of fraternization of so.
    But relations were correct.
    Not until later on, SS unit arrived and police--
    German field gendarmerie they called them, field gendarmerie.
    When these people started coming in and checking everything,
    you know that things became a little bit more difficult.
    And when was that?
    When did they start appearing?
    That was, I would say, about middle of 1940.
    So you would have been at 17, 18 at this time.
    Were you doing any work?
    Yes.
    In fact, father's objective was to see
    that I don't go around and do nothing, and in fact,
    helped around father's work.
    In fact, I had some sums to do in his books.
    I was very interested in engineering then already,
    and I got myself involved in stores and stores of material
    for mechanical workshops which were on the site.
    And I made myself generally helpful around the estate.
    Did the Germans attempt to recruit you at all
    to help with their war effort?
    No.
    No, there was no attempt whatsoever.
    Later on, or maybe similar at the same time,
    but not in our area, were efforts
    to persuade farmers to work on German farms in Germany.
    But at that time, that wasn't forced.
    It wasn't forceful persuasion.
    This came later on in the war.
    But towards autumn 1940, I decided
    to go to Warsaw, to town.
    Although father wasn't keen on that.
    He preferred to have me under his own supervision
    and general care, but something urged me to go and see
    what's happening to Warsaw.
    We already knew that there is some sort of resistance
    against Germans growing.
    There were underground printed papers already distributed,
    and they all sent it from Warsaw.
    And generally, Warsaw appeared to me quite an exciting place.
    So hence, I decided to go back there.
    Were you free to go to Warsaw?
    You were allowed to sort of move from district to district?
    Yes.
    And at that time of the war, movement was quite free.
    In fact, my uncle occupied the whole house
    where we used to live in Warsaw, and father decided
    to remain in the country.
    So I went to Warsaw, and I lived for quite a number of months
    with uncle and auntie.
    And in fact, my grandmother was there, too,
    so we're quite a little family.
    And very shortly after arriving there,
    I met two of my ex-colleagues from my previous school
    who were already, should I say, learning further education.
    A not exactly clandestine arrangement,
    but semi-clandestine because German authorities allow
    a number of technical schools to carry on the existence under
    the understanding that people who learn trade--
    engineering, for instance-- they will
    be later useful to the German.
    And in fact, I joined one of the schools, which basically brought
    me further in my education with a definite specialization
    in engineering.
    Did you still have Polish teachers?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes, yes.
    But was it under German--
    it was under German supervision, the syllabus?
    Not entirely.
    Not entirely.
    It was all checked-- it was checked by Germans obviously,
    and the teachers and the principals
    were told to stick to it possibly.
    They did.
    I don't know.
    But there were definitely German supervision
    from quite above, though we didn't see Germans
    coming and checking things.
    They were run as outlined.
    Now, one of the drawbacks of this school
    was that at least 50% of time spent at school
    had to be devoted to actual practical work.
    And the practical work was employment at German factory.
    So there were three shifts at school,
    and three shifts at factory which were interlocking.
    For instance, one morning at school,
    afternoon, three at home, night in a factory.
    Next morning, three at home, afternoon school,
    and morning in the factory again.
    So that sort of sequence.
    OK, what was your relations with the Germans like at that time?
    You met Germans in the factory, I imagine?
    Supervisors and--
    Yes, on the supervisors at a fairly high level,
    not immediately above me, I had a foreman and possibly
    a plant engineer.
    And then he was responsible to Germans.
    Though Germans were in evidence, obviously they were all the time
    around, but there was no direct contact with relation
    to work with Germans.
    The fact that I had to go out to this factory at night
    meant that I had to have a night pass.
    Incidentally, there was a curfew all the time.
    I think 10:00 was curfew, and there was no traffic--
    nobody was allowed on the street.
    Only German patrols already then in 1940.
    And in that period of time, I was
    approached by one of my colleagues who said,
    you have night pass?
    You'd be very useful to us.
    We have to move some items which during the day
    could be suspicious for German police and their patrols
    in the street.
    But they could be quite easily transported or carried at night.
    Because at night patrols were not too frequent,
    and the only people who had really 100 percent strong case
    to be on the street had papers supporting
    this were seen on the street that were very few, indeed.
    And that's how I was recruited to the underground movement.
    Because one or two nights later, I
    was given a parcel with a clandestine printed
    newspaper which I had to bring from one point to another point.
    And in fact, I was doing that for quite a while--
    for quite a few months to come.
    So that would have been fairly well organized at that time.
    Would it have been late 1940?
    Yes.
    I was only one little cog in the big machinery.
    Did it have a name, this organization?
    No.
    I didn't know then.
    I know only two people, one who gave me parcel,
    and the one who took from me.
    They didn't know my name-- possibly only one,
    that one who recruited me because that
    was my personal colleague.
    Did you know what its aims were?
    Well, yes, yes.
    Because this type of press we already
    seen while in the country before I came to Warsaw.
    But that was the center where this everything was distributed,
    printed, possibly edited, and so on.
    And what were these aims at that time?
    Sorry?
    What were the aims of the organization?
    It was called small sabotage, which
    means simply being a bit awkward towards Germans.
    Not doing what you're told to do.
    There was, obviously, German printed newspaper.
    I think there was only one that I remember,
    and the aim was to contradict all the propaganda
    and other lies which were in this paper
    by printing our own paper.
    Particularly, this was in reference
    to what was happening on the Western front, how
    the Allies are getting on.
    How did you feel then about the course of the war?
    Did you get much real news of the Western front,
    what was happening to Britain and France?
    Yes, yes.
    And, you know, later when you were
    able to check it after the war, were you getting accurate facts?
    Yes.
    Yes, in fact, many people, hundreds of people,
    I knew they were listening to BBC every night.
    So that's no problem.
    And how did you feel at that stage?
    How long did you reckon the war would last?
    Well, the saying was until next spring, no longer.
    So there was months after months, and so on.
    But as time went on, we realized that Germany was very strong,
    indeed.
    If you consider the swiftness with which
    they conquered France, went to Greece, and Crete,
    and then in Africa, we thought that the British and American
    really have to get to grips with this rather dreadful prospect.
    If Germans, for instance, as they aimed at
    would conquer Egypt, and then Middle East, and get to the oil,
    the war could be prolonged for many, many years.
    Because as perhaps you know, Germany was very short of fuel.
    And that was one of the things which
    made them hurry up and get their hands on some sort of oil,
    either through Africa to Middle East, or through Russia
    to Russian oil fields on the Caspian Sea.
    And what was your view of the Germans at that time?
    Did you hear of any sort of atrocities or ill treatment
    early in the war?
    In 1940, yes, we already heard, should I say,
    terror from German side.
    At that time, German police, criminal police, so-called,
    and secret police was already in operation.
    There were one or two incidents where soldiers were still
    in hiding after September 1939, and in fact, one or two cases,
    they fought their way out from encirclement by Germans.
    And there were battles.
    And Polish citizens were taken as hostages.
    And they were told, if this happens again,
    a number of these hostages will be shot.
    And that then snowballed further and further.
    Resistance grew, and German reprisals followed this up.
    And did you witness any of this at first hand?
    Did anyone you know, were anyone you know taken, people taken?
    Not at very close quarters, but from a distance
    of several hundred yards, yes, I saw one of these instances.
    And in fact, the procedure was that German police
    drove in the lorries from two ends of the street.
    So heading-- those two lorries were heading to each other.
    And on a certain point, it stopped.
    German police jumped out, and there
    was a lot of shouting, halt, halt. Shooting
    in the air, that sort of stopping people.
    And everybody had to stop immediately with hands up,
    and it depends.
    It was busy day.
    There were 100 people, maybe 200 people,
    maybe 500 people stopped in this manner.
    And everybody was told to go against the wall.
    First of all, women were allowed to leave, children until about,
    say, 15, 16, or something like that.
    Anybody who was, perhaps, very old or infirm.
    But rest of it were kept against the wall,
    thoroughly searched, and then, say, 50 of these people
    were put in the lorry and were driven off.
    The rest of it was allowed to go.
    And, say, in two or three days, names of these 50 people
    were on the notice boards--
    displayed on notice boards.
    And there was a warning from the commanding police
    chief of the town of Warsaw that these people
    were being held as hostages.
    And if any acts against German army, or German personnel
    take place, these people will be liquidated.
    Obviously, there was no day passed
    if something happens somewhere.
    The train was derailed, or a German soldier
    was shot somewhere, or a German shop
    was put on fire, or something like that,
    and these people then were brought out
    to the street in the same manner as previously described.
    That means everybody was stopped,
    and everybody had to go on one side of the street.
    Then they were picking up a fence,
    or a wall where there were no windows or something like that.
    And these people, all they arrived
    with the eyes blindfolded.
    I mean, they were blindfolded, and their hands
    were tied behind their backs.
    And people say they were already [INAUDIBLE]
    because they sort of behave as the moments where mechanical.
    There was no resistance absolutely.
    They were like little bunch of sheep simply.
    They were put against a wall and machine gun.
    And did you see this yourself?
    I saw that from a distance, yes.
    What sort of effect do you think that had on people?
    Do you think it frightened them?
    Well, to start with, yes.
    But then?
    To start with, yes, and particularly
    in older generation.
    They said, oh, why do these silly things,
    or why causing these things?
    Because this only brings reprisals,
    and the war will finish anyway if you do something or don't.
    And in certain instances, we were
    scolded by certain age group of people
    as being called as hotheads, or a bit around the corner,
    around the bend.
    [LAUGHS] But for us, then it was quite fun.
    I mean, was nothing else to do more or less.
    Perhaps I could give you an example
    of a small instance which affected me
    personally and really introduced me
    to proper work in underground movement.
    This happened at a factory where we
    were employed as students from the school which
    I attended at the same time.
    Not knowingly, I went one morning
    to work when suddenly, within half an hour
    of commencement of the shift, the electric power
    was switched off in the whole works area.
    Machines stopped.
    Everything went quiet, and we thought
    perhaps fuses went somewhere.
    How nice, and we sat down, have a little chat.
    [LAUGHS]
    But suddenly, one of the managing German personnel
    walked into this area we're sitting
    and ordered everybody to move to the center of the aisle
    where people already were gathering
    from other branches of factory.
    I would think in all, 500 to 600 people were gathered there.
    And the managing director, a German person
    in company of one or two works foremen
    and quite a number of police appeared,
    and in German language, told us that one of the foremen
    was killed last night at the gate of the factory.
    A German foreman?
    German foreman, which was act of sabotage.
    And those deeds were to be punished severely.
    We're listening to it, but it was--
    personally to me, it was surprise.
    We started talking about who could be killed, and so on.
    Somebody perhaps said, oh, that must
    be a particularly nasty character, and good for him.
    But then we realized that police started
    looking at us quite closely, marching up and down,
    and they ordered us to form four rows of people,
    and then were counted.
    And every 10th man with three men behind him--
    that means four together--
    had to move forward out of the lines already formed.
    I would think it was about 100 to 120 people put aside.
    And without further word, Germans walked off,
    and police marched this 140, 120-- sorry, 120 people,
    say 120, to the yard where lorries, police lorries,
    were standing.
    And these people were put in the lorry and driven off.
    And we never saw these people again.
    What do you think did happen to them?
    We learned later on, a year or later on,
    we learned that they were taken to a concentration camp.
    They were not killed immediately,
    but they were put into camp--
    detention camp or something like that.
    Well, that made us think twice about working for Germans.
    [LAUGHS] And a previous incident which
    happened, say, a number of weeks prior to that date,
    when put together with the current happenings,
    made me decide to leave the factory altogether.
    I mean, don't come anymore.
    And then that means also leaving school--
    not going to school.
    Because we were all registered, and our names
    were known at school, and our addresses.
    And there was no point not coming to factory
    and staying at home.
    So you left the factory then and left school?
    I left school.
    After that incident?
    Yes.
    And did you do any more work when you left the factory?
    What did you then do?
    What work did you do?
    Staying with my family, that means my uncle,
    was quite convenient because my uncle was then
    in timber business.
    And in fact, his business was recognized by German government
    as legal because a lot of timber was exported
    from Poland to Germany.
    And my uncle had connections before the war in this field,
    and continued doing so.
    I must mention here that timber was
    one of the very important materials for Germany.
    There was very little timber in Germany itself.
    Timber used to come from Czechoslovakia, Hungary,
    but most then came from Poland.
    And Germans were trying to find people
    who could help them by either sorting out, grading up, sawing.
    And uncle knew many people in this trade
    where there were sawmills where was good timber, bad timber.
    And that was the work which I started learning from him.
    And in fact, I was relegated to go
    to one or two forests in the area
    to see how timber is being felted how it's being
    transported to sawmills, how it's being sawn, how
    the sawmills is being run, how to grade the cut up trunks,
    and how they being dried, or seasoned, all the things.
    How to learn the age of the tree trunks.
    It was very interesting for me, something new.
    And I think in all, I worked in this line for about 2 and 1/2
    years.
    Until when would that have been?
    [? Yurek ?] Orwovski Tape three.
    When you left the factory, did you still maintain your links
    with the underground?
    Yes, indeed.
    In fact, that made me even more connected with the underground.
    And in fact, that's where I began my involvement in earnest,
    in fact.
    Still not knowing much about the organization,
    and not knowing what we represent as a movement.
    I realized only one thing, that we were working
    against present occupation.
    And this connection with one or two colleagues
    who used to employ me as their carrying
    pigeon for various materials and goods during the curfew hours,
    helped me to establish closer contact
    with the actual organization, where things were being actually
    done against Germans.
    That brought me, in fact, face to face,
    with my future commanding officers
    in the underground movement, and other colleagues which
    were in the underground movement, of which I
    didn't know before.
    In fact, our first meeting, a clandestine meeting,
    it was in a flat belonging to mother of my good colleague.
    And there was a big surprise to see that many people were
    there I knew already.
    And obviously, the first task was to acquire a nickname.
    Nobody was called or asked for in his proper name.
    So I was given, in fact, I was asked
    what name I would like to have.
    And I then quickly choose something.
    And that was recorded and remembered by everybody present.
    And no other names were mentioned.
    In fact, at our first meeting, I clearly
    remember it was quite unusual for me and extremely inspiring.
    Because the commanding person of the unit brought with him
    another man, which we were told was parachuted from England
    to Poland, to set up underground movement units.
    And in fact, he was a paratrooper
    for the Polish army under British command
    who came to teach us, trained us, and organized us
    and began stronger and more versatile
    units, suitable for possibly to actual fight on the streets
    and so on.
    I remember at this first meeting,
    we didn't talk about underground.
    We didn't talk about Germans.
    We've been all asking, what's going on in England?
    What England looks like?
    what do the people talk about there?
    What do they eat?
    What clothes they wear?
    Absolutely thousands of questions, and poor chap
    for hours was sitting answering questions and various queries
    from present.
    Did you know about the London Polish government?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, yes.
    That was well known from the underground press,
    which we by then read for a good year or so.
    And was there contact?
    Was the contact maintained between the underground
    and the London government?
    Yes, in fact, the officer I'm talking about,
    this parachute officer, he brought
    with him equipment, radio equipment,
    and he was one of the leading should
    I say contacts for information, and transmitted information
    to London every day, in fact.
    What was this organization called then?
    Was it still called the little--
    I think you said it was Small Sabotage in the beginning it
    was called?
    Yes, it was still called Small Sabotage.
    And finally, in year or so, that was 1941.
    Not until '42 or '43 all units were
    organized under one name, which was Home Army.
    But in those early days, we had various names.
    For instance, our little unit was called--
    I have to translate clumsily into English.
    It was called a Company of Bears.
    Of Bear?
    Yes.
    Black Bears, in fact.
    Not white bears, black bears.
    And we called each other bear, that sort of thing.
    What was your name, if you can say this?
    What was your fake name?
    Yes, it was Lech.
    Lech, which means Lech was a name of a very early Slav
    person who in fact, first for the first time,
    endeavored to establish Slav settlements in Central Europe,
    and was the first one who also established an identity
    for a number for Norman-like wandering tribes of Slavs
    into one unit.
    And that name was used quite frequently in Poland
    as a Christian name for boys.
    So I took this as my nickname for the whole future encounters
    in the underground army.
    Having that established, shortly afterwards, we were sworn in,
    quite big ceremony that was, with Bible, and scout-type hand,
    and we were sworn allegiance to Poland and Polish case,
    of fighting against Germans, and in fact allegiance
    to the Polish government in London.
    Which we all believed and thought and were told anyway
    it will come down to Warsaw after war is finished.
    Because that is continuation of the Polish sovereignty.
    Now once you were in a unit which normally comprised
    about 7 to 10 people, from time to time
    we were given various tasks.
    Meetings were not frequent.
    I'd say once in a fortnight at different locations,
    and mostly in other people's houses and flats.
    And we were briefed on certain undertakings which
    would have to be carried out.
    And then time was set or times were agreed on.
    And that was the period of war where I started actively
    to do something against German occupying forces.
    And this small sabotage consisted
    to start with writing slogans on the wall.
    That's what we call today--
    The graffiti.
    Graffiti.
    That was the prototype of graffiti.
    [LAUGHS] And there was a number of slogans
    which I remember writing myself, including drawings
    of gallows with swastika hanging on it, that sort of thing.
    We didn't have aerosols then.
    But big brushes with white or black
    paint, writing on the walls, on the pavements, on the trains,
    on the trams.
    And that I think I was involved with for a good six, seven
    months.
    How difficult was it to do that?
    Sorry?
    How difficult was it to do that?
    This had to be done at night.
    And I suppose you weren't working at the factory then.
    Were you allowed out at night?
    I was for one reason, that I still
    had my night pass which was very skilfully
    copied, in several copies, in fact, where photographs
    of other people were affixed.
    Germans swastika stamps were made up from rubber stamps.
    And in fact, my night pass was a prototype
    for future night passes for people who used to go and do
    naughty things at night.
    [LAUGHS]
    And in fact, that led to other more important things.
    And one of the most important tasks
    I was involved as a next step was
    recovery of arms and weapons, which were buried in the soil
    after the defeat of Polish army in 1939.
    And in fact, what was happening, particularly in Warsaw
    and before Warsaw surrender, masses of rifles, and revolvers,
    and hand grenades, and so on were
    buried in the soil in squares, and in flowerbeds in the parks,
    and covered for future use.
    This was we were told then.
    And one of my tasks then was to locate these things with help
    of other people who knew more or less where they were,
    and to recover these weapons, refurbished, because most cases
    they were pretty rusted by then.
    Some of them were in good condition, some not so good.
    Some were completely useless.
    But that was my task in company of say three or four colleagues
    to go at night to the central park, dig out a big hole,
    take out these rifles and hand grenades.
    Sometimes we couldn't find them because the position
    was taken incorrectly.
    But if we found, we had to transport these by taxi,
    by a so-called rickshaw.
    I don't know what is a rickshaw?
    Yes, I understand what a rickshaw is.
    Yes.
    A cart with someone pulling it.
    Yes?
    Oh, no.
    That was a different rickshaw.
    It's a typical wartime rickshaw.
    It was in fact, a tricycle or a bicycle
    on three wheels where you had a chain
    and pedals in the rear, two wheels and axle in front,
    and there was a wooden box in the front with seats
    for two or three people.
    And because there was no fuel, and particularly Poles were not
    allowed to use fuel at all, the transport within the town
    was done by those rickshaws, which
    people who wanted to earn few pennies pedaled like mad behind.
    And you were sitting on a bench seat in the front.
    And that sort of rickshaw we were
    using for transporting rifles, and hand grenades, and so on.
    Normally such a consignment of weapons
    was taken to a secured clandestine house or flat.
    And that was task finish for me.
    I wouldn't know what happened to it, who took it then,
    or where it had gone.
    Frequently, I was landed with one of the items,
    particularly rusted, and had to take home and clean it up.
    So that was rather difficult. Because if my uncle caught
    me doing it, I'll be turfed out immediately from home.
    Did he have any idea what you were doing?
    Not by that time.
    Later on, he did.
    But at that time, my grandmother already knew.
    And in fact, as far as hiding weapons within the house
    was concerned, she knew all the best places to put away.
    So she supported you, actually?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes.
    She supported me.
    Were you aware at this time of what was happening to the Jews?
    Yes.
    In fact, much earlier to the period I'm talking about,
    things were happening within the so-called ghetto in Warsaw,
    which was part of the town assigned to Jewish population.
    And that part of the town was surrounded by a brick wall,
    about 12 to 15 feet tall.
    And there were small towers built where Germans were
    guarding this area and so on.
    It was during the time when I was going to factory.
    I used to travel right across town at night or by day.
    But we didn't so much by day because of traffic and so on.
    But at night, you could see what was happening within ghetto.
    At certain points, I was able to look in from the higher ground.
    We saw, for instance, a transport of Jewish people being
    taken out from ghetto, and sent out to the extermination camps.
    They're being marched in small detachments
    with their little belongings.
    We weren't sure what's going on.
    We thought perhaps, oh, they may be going from A to B. Maybe
    they were crowded in one end of the town.
    They're going to be sent to somewhere else.
    Only as time went on, we realized
    that they were taken to railway station
    and then transported to concentration camp.
    In fact, later on, we didn't see that.
    Because the Germans extended a railway
    track from the central railway station in Warsaw to ghetto,
    and they were loading people on trains within the ghetto.
    So we couldn't see much.
    But we did see from time to time houses
    being burned in the ghetto.
    There were occasions where we heard shooting.
    And we then began to hear stories from other colleagues
    in the underground movement who were already involved
    in helping Jewish population.
    But myself personally, I wasn't involved
    at that stage in this aspect.
    One of the other interesting tasks
    which could be quite interesting here
    was gathering of arms for future actions.
    We always talked about future actions.
    That means when Germany will be defeated or withdrawing,
    we will then help Allies and so on.
    I have to come back here to this time
    when we returned from the Eastern Poland
    to our home in the country, and when the German unit was
    stationed at our house.
    One of the Germans I met was particularly friendly,
    but nothing spectacular.
    We knew he liked drinking.
    That we knew very well, because frequently he was half drunk.
    And he used to buy drinks on the black market somewhere.
    But also we knew that he was inclined to do bartering.
    And frequently, we were told that things were disappearing
    from German stores for exchange for goods
    he could get in the country, like poultry, pigs,
    and if he was doing this with his commanding officer's
    blessings, we don't know, possibly not openly.
    But the whole unit seemed to be benefiting from his trading
    instincts.
    It was at the time when I was gathering and cleaning
    those old rifles, when I met him in Warsaw again,
    quite accidentally met him on the street.
    He recognized me.
    I recognized him.
    And he told me that he is now out of his unit,
    and he is now a policeman.
    Obviously, he asked me what I'm doing here.
    He asked about my father whom he knew.
    Well I had no reason at that stage to distrust him too much.
    Anyway, I lived openly in Warsaw.
    And I told him, yes, I'm living in Warsaw.
    I'm working for my uncle.
    So he said, oh yes, I must come up sometime and see you.
    I must say here he was about 50, 55, while I was 17 or 18,
    something like that.
    So he on a personal basis, he was a much
    should I say older person, and he sometimes treated me
    as his son, a little down, thumb down a little bit, but bearable.
    So I said, fine.
    I gave him address, uncle's address.
    And within about three or four weeks, he called on the uncle.
    I remember he had a dinner with us.
    And during the conversation he said
    he will be interested in buying gold, gold, and particularly
    he said, gold dollars, gold dollar coins.
    These were very, very rare in Germany.
    And he said he could give good money for it.
    And we said fine, but what can we get?
    If one locates a golden dollar like that,
    what can we get from you for it?
    We don't want money.
    So he said, well, he could supply shoes.
    He could supply butter, which was very short at that time
    he could supply, tea, coffee, even bananas, he said,
    which were then coming from Africa to Germany.
    I went and I think for about a month or two months
    or maybe longer, I can't remember exactly,
    but for that period of time this barter went quite happily.
    He was happy.
    And we were happy, in fact, not only uncle himself,
    but uncle friends and other people who had perhaps
    got bits and pieces too, to exchange for food or something.
    And we found that he was fairly secure, because he was
    doing this on his own accord.
    He wasn't working for anybody else.
    He lived in Hamburg.
    And in fact, he was a policeman before the war in Hamburg.
    It would appear then to us that he had some circles, trading
    circles in Germany, in Hamburg itself,
    where golden dollars were very well paid for.
    And he just commuted between Warsaw and Hamburg,
    taking one way gold, another one any other goods.
    And in fact, this--
    Culminated.
    --culminated, yes, in him selling us arms for dollars,
    for gold dollars.
    And on one or two occasions, he delivered sub-machine guns,
    revolvers, ammunition for the best piece of gold
    which we sold.
    So my task was within the underground
    to spread news that gold is needed.
    And if gold is available, we could
    have weapons whatever we like.
    Was he an exceptional case or were there other Germans who
    would do that?
    It would appear later on we learned that there were
    a number of Germans like that.
    But within my personal reach and my personal knowledge,
    he was the exception.
    Did you have a pretty clear idea of the whole
    of the underground movement in Warsaw,
    or just your particular cell?
    Just my particular sector.
    Well, this trading in arms came one day
    to quite an abrupt stop, when our German friend disappeared,
    completely disappeared.
    We don't know what happened to him.
    He didn't owe us anything.
    So that means he didn't take our gold and disappeared with it.
    In fact, that was balanced quite evenly
    at the point of his disappearance.
    And we never heard of him.
    And we don't know what happened to him.
    But my little contact was cut off,
    and no longer was able to supply these arms for our people.
    This underground group you belonged to,
    was that the only one operating in Warsaw, or were there other--
    Oh, no.
    There were hundreds of others, of various sizes,
    under various clandestine names.
    They were mainly led by ex-officers or ex-soldiers.
    And they were all aimed at military training.
    In fact, we were training at least twice a week.
    But were they affiliated to the Home Army, or did they belong--
    Eventually.
    I see.
    There was a date which I can't remember exactly.
    But it was I think 1943 where the other units were
    amalgamated, and they were given the name Home Army, AK,
    which means Armia Krajowa.
    That means Home Army.
    And there was no group apart from that in Warsaw?
    There were other groups.
    There were other groups.
    In fact, there were two major other groups.
    One was, in fact, a leftist group,
    which they called themselves socialists underground movement.
    And they remained rather separate, as far
    as I remember all the time.
    And there were a number of groups
    in the country which were for a very long time separate.
    And they joined the Home Army very late.
    That means in 1943, '44 almost.
    But as far as I recollect, the socialists
    I mean that movement never joined Home Army.
    They were organized separately.
    But that didn't interest us.
    And that didn't sort of hinder us in any way.
    And we didn't realize the political aspect of it.
    You didn't?
    No.
    How about the Russians at this time?
    Because Germany would have invaded Russia of course
    in 1941.
    How did you feel when you heard that news?
    This is going back a bit, of course.
    Yes, it goes back a little bit.
    But to start with, it was immediately obvious to us
    that this is going to finish Germany.
    Germany would never win on two fronts, east and west.
    And we knew that the vastness of Russia, the resources,
    and the millions of people there who we knew they
    were slaughtered in the first days or first weeks of war.
    But there was nothing against the mass of them which remained.
    And particularly as we learned that Western Allies are helping
    and supplying Soviet Union with weapons, arms, and food,
    and clothing, and everything--
    then we realized that this is the end
    of Germany coming closer.
    In fact, we helped Russians, although we knew they were not
    really our friends.
    But in effort to defeat Germany, we helped them.
    How did you help them?
    Well there were units specially sent
    into Eastern Europe from Poland who
    were in contact with Russian intelligence
    and Russian underground movement, which
    was left behind German lines.
    And these people cooperated in attacking and destroying
    German resources and transport behind the lines.
    [? Yurek ?] Orwovski tape four.
    Did you hear anything about the Katyn massacre?
    Yes.
    The fact that the graves of thousands of Polish officers
    were discovered in Russia by Germans
    was very heavily publicized by Germans in Poland.
    And to the extent that people were
    invited to go there and identify the people, the husbands,
    the brothers, and so on.
    Lists were published of names of people that people found there,
    and relatives were invited to go and witness the things.
    I don't think many people went.
    But I believe one or two or three maybe did so.
    And I know there was quite a fuss
    made by Germany, by Germans, to establish the timing
    and actual methods of killing.
    And there was a commission, a Red Cross commission
    from Switzerland at the place, I think
    for the purpose of establishing actual factual findings which
    were recorded and brought in files to Switzerland.
    This in fact didn't make a very big impact on me personally.
    Because we, my colleagues and myself,
    we used to regard this as an act of war.
    That happened in a war.
    It doesn't happen now.
    Because now we're helping them.
    They're helping us.
    When you shoot at a time when the Russians invaded Poland
    in 1939, there were skirmishes between Polish troops
    and Russian troops.
    All the Russians said they're coming
    to make sure that not all Poland will be taken by Germany.
    We didn't believe that then.
    And there were skirmishes between soldiers on both sides.
    And those who were found dead in Katyn,
    we thought rather these were the people who were killed then,
    not cold bloodedly killed two years later, or not exactly
    two years later.
    But there were other things which made
    us less suspicious of Russians.
    They were very, very keen to learn
    how we organized our units, how we train ourselves,
    who is supporting us.
    Are we receiving any direct help from the west,
    how we acquire weapons, and are we politically minded or not?
    That sort of questions were frequently
    asked by Russian people or Russian soldiers
    we met in the country.
    I personally didn't have much contacts
    because I was most of the times in Warsaw.
    But on one occasion, I took part in blowing up
    a German train where we cooperate with Russians.
    And that was one of the occasions
    I met them on a personal basis.
    And I must say they didn't leave a good impression on me.
    They were very cagey about answering our questions.
    But they were throwing a lot of questions at us.
    Did you speak Russian?
    Not really, but--
    They spoke Polish, did they?
    No they spoke Russian.
    And we spoke Polish and generally, we
    could understand each other.
    In many cases there were Ukrainians
    which it's more like Slav language, with many similarities
    to Polish.
    And you could make out the sense of the conversation quite
    easily.
    Did you at that stage think about the post-war world
    politically?
    Did you feel that perhaps Russia might want
    to influence events in Poland?
    No.
    No.
    Not whatsoever.
    Did your colleagues, do you think in the Home Army
    at that time?
    I would doubt it.
    We discussed most of things between ourselves.
    But that wasn't discussed at all, in fact.
    The unit to which I belong this bear detachment, in fact,
    had a political aspect too.
    It was on the top of this organization
    was a man who was conservative as far as politics were
    concerned, very conservative, in fact very right-wing
    in the Polish political field.
    What was his name?
    Can you remember?
    His name was Piasecki And in fact, after the war,
    he was very well known in Poland because he turned around 180
    degrees and became pro-Russian.
    But that had nothing to do with me at the time.
    I never met him.
    I never heard of him, or I heard his name
    and I knew he was in presence.
    But I never had occasion to talk to him or see him.
    Now these actions in the country by harassing German rail lines
    and communication lines, that continued almost to the day
    when the uprising in Warsaw took place.
    That means August '44.
    During these years, 1942, '43, did
    you have any contact with the ghetto?
    Did the Home Army have any contact with the Jewish ghetto?
    Oh yes, indeed.
    The Home Army as such, yes.
    Yes, in major way.
    I knew members of the Home Army were in ghetto, helping
    to organize Jewish resistance.
    And this was going on I would say quite a large way.
    But I personally had no contact with this action,
    with this incident.
    We knew this is happening because there were explosions
    in that part of the town.
    Houses were burned.
    Day and night there was a cloud of smoke rising from the area.
    But as we had no direct interest as far
    as our union was concerned, we weren't
    really aware of what actually was happening.
    We knew that the town is being destroyed
    and Jewish people were being transported out of town.
    But where they we going and what for, we never heard of it.
    Although not being connected directly
    with happenings in ghetto, one incident
    brought to my notice what was actually happening
    to the Jewish population.
    This happened during one of the actions in the country
    where we were cooperating with Russian underground movement
    and Russian paratroopers in Eastern Poland.
    On one occasion, there was a skirmish between a German unit
    and underground movement unit, and a number of German prisoners
    were taken.
    Obviously, this was happening in many places at various times.
    And there was no special significance for me
    that a few German prisoners were taken.
    But there was a new story attached to that.
    It transpired that when interrogated,
    these Germans found to be Ukrainians
    and they're fighting under German command.
    And this particular, I think there were three or four,
    were guards in that concentration camp.
    In fact, in a camp where Jews were liquidated.
    What was the name of that camp?
    That camp was called Sobibor.
    And in fact, the camp as such didn't exist.
    Jews were arriving and they were so quickly
    destroyed that there was no need to do any housing for them.
    In fact, they were arriving at the siding.
    They were sorted out according to there
    were women, or men, or children.
    They had to leave their belongings.
    And in fact, most of these people as far as I remember,
    they were from Belgium and Holland.
    And they were brought to Eastern Poland under belief
    that they will be settled there on land.
    They will be given so much land to cultivate and settle there.
    They were allowed to bring only most valuable belongings
    in small cases.
    Obviously, there was no furniture taken or any larger
    pieces of domestic appliances, only personal and jewelry,
    and so on, that sort of thing they
    were allowed to bring with them.
    That was deposited in the camp or a barrack, type
    wooden barrack type of building.
    And then they were taken to--
    incidentally, we had this story from actual guards.
    We didn't witness this.
    I've never been there, but what actually guards
    told my colleagues and they repeated to me.
    They were, as I said, segregated men from women.
    And they were sent to showers because they said they
    had very tiring long journey.
    You need a good wash, perhaps change of clothes or something.
    And they had really a shower.
    Their clothes was put on the hangers,
    metal hangers apparently, and went to special chambers
    for disinfection and delousing, that sort of thing.
    When they had this shower, they were
    told they have to wait for the clothing to come out.
    And they were taken to a specially prepared bunker,
    concrete sort of building, partly on the level of ground,
    partly underground.
    And this building was designed as a gas chamber, where
    people waiting for their clothes were gathered, tightly packed.
    It was warm.
    And there was a film being shown, music being
    played through loudspeakers.
    And when the chamber was full they shut the door.
    And through the vent above, gas was thrown in.
    And nobody was heard inside because there
    was a huge thickness of concrete walls and iron
    doors shut behind them.
    And these people were in a matter of 10 minutes perhaps
    they were dead.
    And what was the most cruel thing about it
    we thought was that in that chamber apparently
    there was a sloping floor like in cinema.
    And that floor was heated like a frying pan.
    And these bodies were burnt to cinders,
    and the fat from the bodies was draining
    in the corner, one corner, and it was gathered in barrels.
    And was then sent to Germany for the manufacture of soap,
    as a raw material for manufacture of soap.
    And when bodies were burnt and turned to cinders,
    the doors were open.
    Hoses were directed on it to cool off.
    And bones were ground into powder as a fertilizer.
    Yes, that was a rather shocking story even for us
    then when it came to this point of being really cruel.
    Being killed in battle, being shot on the street,
    being shot for doing something, one
    could say all right I've done it, and I got it.
    But for innocent people led to believe that they're
    going to be free and better off somewhere else,
    and the sneaky, nasty way being destroyed like animals
    that really turned us against Germans.
    That was the turning point against Germans.
    And at that point it would make us really hate them.
    How did the Germans regard the Poles as a race,
    in racial terms?
    Have you any idea?
    In what terms?
    In racial terms.
    Have you any idea how they regarded you?
    Well, it's a wide spectrum of say contacts and feelings
    between Germans and Poles.
    As you know Poland, part of Poland, was annexed by Germany
    and became proper Germany.
    But the center of Poland became self-governed
    under German command and control.
    There was a German governor.
    Hence, they needed people to run the internal government.
    They managed to gather people who run the day-to-day tasks
    of non-military obviously nature--
    administrative, doctors, dentists that sort of thing.
    And people who carried those tasks and they
    had to relay the results of these tasks to Germans,
    they found them quite reasonable to deal with when
    those tasks are concerned.
    And Germans regarded them as, well, hard-working, honest,
    and administrative workers, you see.
    When you look at the relation between, say, average German
    and working class peasant--
    Polish peasants, or farmers, or factory workers--
    Poles were regarded rather as a much lower intelligent race,
    and fit only to work.
    And in fact, the ultimate thing was
    to turn the Polish nation into a working
    nation as a reservoir of labor.
    And in fact, that's why schools were not opened.
    Because they said, we don't want you to be
    mathematicians or technicians.
    As long as you can read and write, that's enough for us.
    And they were degrading the nation constantly, all the time
    while they were there.
    One of the points which also helped
    me to turn against Germans was another incident.
    And it was during the time when Germans
    were stationed at our house.
    One day, I saw one of the people I knew personally cycling along
    the road.
    And in opposite direction on the same road,
    there was a German walking, one of the Germans
    which was stationed in our house.
    Now I knew both of them.
    I don't know what happened.
    Did my colleague cycling caught by handlebar the German
    or that German walked deliberately in his path,
    anyway, there was a bit of a collision.
    And my colleague fell off the bike
    and the German soldier also fell in the dust.
    And that turned the German into a fury to such an extent
    that I had to turn around and go away because to take part in it,
    I had to defend my colleague.
    If I did that, I would definitely
    be against those Germans and my father would be involved
    and everybody will be involved at home.
    On the other hand, I didn't want to say to my colleague,
    well you stupid, why did you run into the German,
    because he would be thinking I am against, him pro-German.
    And that made me think then, for the first time in fact,
    where I stand.
    I was very sorry for my colleague.
    But I couldn't do anything about it.
    And I didn't show this German that I
    know this Polish chap, because he would say,
    well look he ran into me.
    That was clear intention.
    He hates Germans.
    And if he is your colleague with out you,
    then, it could be a complicating matter very, very, very much.
    And that would perhaps also complicate
    relations between my father and the local German administration
    people.
    So I was very ashamed.
    At the same time very, very angry with this German
    who ran over my friend or whatever it was.
    I wonder if you could describe the living conditions in Warsaw,
    say previous to the rising in 1944.
    What was life like?
    Warsaw was quite badly destroyed in 1939.
    I think estimate was about 20% of houses were destroyed.
    But a specific aspect of these times
    was that Warsaw under the occupation,
    the population was under German occupation,
    was larger than before the war.
    Many people from the country tried to settle in Warsaw.
    There were various reasons, perhaps
    there was one place where you could find work.
    There was a center of trade in the country which
    was very familiar to me then was a place where
    you could hide from Germans.
    In fact, you could get lost in Warsaw under an assumed name,
    changing your addresses, and generally
    sort of disappearing in a crowd.
    This caused several problems for the town, namely
    housing and food supply.
    Housing was in such a shortage that people
    lived in flats which were really overcrowded,
    friends living with friends, and families joined together
    in one dwelling.
    We were in lucky position.
    In fact, we lived quite comfortably,
    if you consider standards then, as far as accommodation
    is concerned.
    But food supply was very, very critical all the time.
    There were a number of reasons.
    There were no major suppliers of foodstuffs.
    The majority of production went to Germany,
    being more or less confiscated on the spot,
    20% for the producer, 80% for the government,
    then being German government.
    Therefore, there was shortage in the country,
    and even more acute shortage in towns.
    A lot of black market exists in a way that
    produces in the country, instead of giving up products
    to Germans they try to smuggle it to Warsaw, to towns,
    and sell quite profitably.
    Because people were prepared to pay for food.
    There was state provided food, basics like bread, jams.
    Meat was very short.
    I can't remember even that I had many days when
    we had meat on the table, or meat provided by the state
    or by the municipal administration of town.
    Bread was shocking, always wet and next day it was already
    green outside, mold.
    So-called jam was made from beetroot,
    white beetroot with color in it added.
    There was no sugar as such.
    There was plenty of various other substances
    and ersatz, substitute ersatz.
    There was ersatz coffee, ersatz tea, ersatz butter,
    with very, very low calorific values.
    People were getting less nourishment every day.
    And a number of people were really starving.
    But again, luckily, this didn't affect us personally
    within the family.
    Having father in the country, who could provide things
    better than, on average, and being brothers,
    they help each other.
    So as far as nourishment is concerned,
    we were quite well off.
    Was there any entertainment in the town at all?
    Could you, for instance, go to the cinema?
    Yes.
    Or the theater?
    Yes.
    There was one theater as far as I remember,
    and about two or three cinemas, showing only German films.
    But theater was Polish theater, and Polish artists
    were performing.
    I don't think I can remember going once even there or being
    once in theater.
    But my parents went several times.
    And you were still listening to the BBC news at this time.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes, oh yes, that was all the time.
    And by 1944, that was almost openly listened to.
    And did you feel any link with the Polish government
    in exile in London?
    Well, we recognized that this is a government which
    went abroad and will come back.
    And through the BBC, did you feel any contact
    with the government?
    Was it sort of made in this way?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes, there were directives that were coming in.
    They were telling us what's ought to be done,
    how to behave ourselves.
    And they were briefed on many aspects of life in the West.
    No, no.
    That was a continuous government, but abroad.
    How did you feel when Sikorski died?
    Did he mean anything to you as leader?
    No, not really.
    Personally, it didn't mean to me much
    because he was a man who became the commanding personality
    abroad.
    He wasn't well known to me personally as a leader in Poland
    before the war.
    He was one of the people who were in government,
    and unfortunately had an accident.
    Was there anyone in London that had meaning to you, any leader--
    No.
    --that had significance?
    No personalities at all.

    There is no transcript available for this track

    Jurek Orwovski, Tape 7.
    So could you continue with this story, Jurek?
    Yes, as I said, although I was safe on the other side
    of the street once I crossed it, but my rifle wasn't.
    In fact, my colleagues who observed the things happening
    in front of their eyes in the middle of the street
    had an eye on it.
    And I had a quite heated discussion
    if I was eligible to possess this rifle,
    as the main argument was that it was, should I say,
    won on the territory on which the other detachment was
    in command.
    So anything within their reach was
    supposed to be their property.
    However, after, as I said, heated argument,
    I was determined not to let this weapon go away.
    That eventually I won the hustle, and I went on my way
    to the point where my detachment was stationed.
    Is this significant of how precious a rifle
    would have been in those days?
    Very much so.
    In fact, you find that if the strength of the detachment
    was calculated or assessed, it wasn't, for instance, said
    that this platoon consists of 27 people.
    This platoon consists of 3 rifles, 7 revolvers, 3 hand
    grenades, and about a couple of dozen
    of Molotov cocktail bottles.
    And that was strength of the platoon.
    In fact, there were when there were three or four people
    assigned to one rifle.
    For instance, if there was a post, observation post
    or defensive post, a rifle was there.
    And people who came on rotation, on duty,
    were taking over the same rifle, counting rounds and making sure
    that rifle wasn't scratched or in another poor state
    of cleanliness.
    There was an extreme shortage.
    And although new supplies were coming
    as the uprising progressed, right through the uprising,
    a number of people were eligible to serve
    with Home Army was far greater than a number of weapons.
    Now coming back to my story, as I mentioned before,
    my duty was to maintain a contact, a personal contact,
    between the area, which was called Warsaw Center
    South and also Center North.
    Normally, I used to carry a dispatch case
    with some documents, which I used
    to hand over to adjutant to commanding officer
    on the other side.
    And as it happened, this work could be carried out only
    at night.
    So I was working at night resting
    and doing formal nothing during the day.
    And that gave me a think, first class opportunity to go around
    and see what's happening during the day.
    Obviously, I had a few hours of sleep to start with.
    But one doesn't sleep throughout the day normally.
    And then sort of mid-morning, I used
    to go up and out to see how the other people, other detachments,
    are getting on and how people are living,
    in what sort of conditions.
    And I saw a quite a lot of that in fact.
    And--
    This is during the Rising?
    Oh, yes.
    That was your job-- yes, if we can just establish that.
    That was my initial duties within the detachment.
    I think that for about two weeks I was doing that sort of work.
    As I mentioned with plenty of free time on my hands
    during the day, I made a number of discoveries--
    how people live, how they behave,
    what was their attitude towards the uprising towards Germans.
    Obviously, that was too obvious to mention.
    But people were talking about future
    or talking about what's happened,
    what's going to happen when the war is finished.
    And I used to mix with ordinary people who
    then openly and freely talked about what was happening around
    them without fear of German presence.
    And what were they talking about in the first two
    weeks of the rising?
    Well, basically, everybody was convinced
    that maximum two weeks, or even less,
    would suffice to see that Russian army will be in Warsaw.
    Where was the Russian army at that particular time
    to your knowledge?
    Well, to my knowledge, it was within two or three
    miles from the point where I was stationed.
    In fact, from a higher point in the city from upper floors,
    you could see movements of Russian troops
    on the other side of the river.
    In that part of the town or city was called Praga.
    And Russian tanks were clearly visible
    through binoculars at a distance,
    as I said, 3, maybe 4 kilometers.
    The most, should I say, towering aspect of that period
    was movement and travel across town from point to point.
    You couldn't travel on the surface of the street
    because all streets, or most of them,
    were under fire by German snipers positioned, perhaps
    strategically, where the whole length of street
    was under surveillance.
    So it was impossible to walk along street, even
    across street.
    And during this first two weeks, a maze of tunnels and crossings,
    underground crossings, was made by local population.
    Each block of flats or each--
    well, I want to describe not only the block of flats,
    but also schools, hospitals.
    Personnel on this establishment was engaged in digging tunnels
    by breaking through the cellar.
    I must say here that almost all houses,
    as far as I know, in Poland, or also on the continent,
    possess cellars.
    We haven't got cellars in this country, anyway, not so many.
    And the object was to break openings between the cellars.
    And that was the way people were communicating or traveling
    or walking across the town, through cellars.
    And when it came to crossing the street,
    a tunnel was dug underneath the street.
    So hundreds and hundreds, thousands of people
    were constantly marching and traveling and going from A to B
    through this makeshift tunnels.
    Was there any sort of master plan?
    Because I can imagine an awful lot of confusion
    if you didn't have anyone sort of governing things.
    For instance, was a master plan made of this tunnel network?
    No, it wasn't as far as I know.
    Generally, people were advised to construct these tunnels.
    And each individual block of flats
    or a number of blocks of flats had its own person in charge
    who was responsible for not only constructing
    these tunnels, but also digging wells for water
    and taking in charge the fire precautions, fire fighting
    precautions.
    As it happened, fairly soon--
    I can't remember how many days--
    after uprising actually was going on,
    water supply was cut off by Germans.
    So there was no water in mains.
    Hence, you can imagine--
    for the human consumption, there was no water.
    Hence, wells had to be dug in.
    And there was no water for fighting fires.
    And that was the most dramatic, I think,
    aspect of the whole operation.
    Because when block of flats or houses started burning,
    and the fire was not extinguished
    in the first few instances of the commencement,
    then it was nothing to do just to see it burns out.
    And in fact, that was happening.
    Everyday is happening.
    The center of Warsaw in which I served to begin with,
    luckily, wasn't subjected to a terrific German pressure.
    They concentrated, in fact, on the outskirts of Warsaw
    and on breaking through the east-west thoroughfares
    to the bridges across the river.
    Could I ask you, at this time, which
    is the first two weeks of the rising, how much of the town
    did the Home Army control?
    How much of Warsaw?
    Well, I would think about 3/4 of the town,
    though it was very fragmented.
    Germans-- in fact, during the first five days,
    Home Army took over command over areas
    which were regarded as very important for maintaining
    Polish presence and holding on until Russian army would come.
    We couldn't take over bridges because there
    were anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns positioned
    on the approaches.
    And it was impossible.
    Otherwise, too many people would be killed.
    And we couldn't also take places such places
    as Gestapo headquarters or police headquarters.
    These places were very, very heavily defended and barricaded.
    But the idea was if you cannot take a German sort of position,
    then surround it and keep in isolation so neither they could
    leave or no help could come and rescue them.
    And I think that was the main object of the uprising--
    to keep the German forces in check so they cannot move
    freely.
    And that would allow incoming Russians to gain access
    or much easier than they would otherwise.
    And what was the morale like of the people during this time,
    the atmosphere in Warsaw?
    Well--
    These are the first two weeks, isn't it, we're talking of?
    If I look at this now I think it was fantastic,
    though at the time I thought that's how it should be.
    I thought, well, that's just natural.
    I didn't sort of marvel that somebody was laughing and being
    gay because we have no freedom and so on because I
    thought it was natural.
    And if you didn't behave that way you,
    something was wrong with you.
    But if you look at this now, that
    was the period I think when the Polish population in Warsaw
    suffered most.
    But at the same time, they were in most gay, should I say, mood,
    in most gay mood.
    And they were just happy about what is happening.
    How about the Allies?
    Did you appeal-- did you think the Allies would send you
    any help, the British?
    Well, yes and no.
    We realized that distance is such
    that flights with a substantial military help
    would be impossible.
    There was nowhere to land because that was occupied area.
    In fact, we didn't count on a rescue by Western Allies.
    But you did expect the Russians?
    We expect Russians, yes, to go ahead and fight Germans
    right to the German soil.
    And in fact, we were prepared to give them
    our complete help which we were able to give them.
    Yes.
    Well, going back to uprising and the mice duties,
    I did one or two quite interesting,
    I would call them, escapades.
    One of the first one I undertook was
    to go to my uncle's house, which was almost
    in a no man's land between German and Polish lines.
    I wasn't sure exactly where the front line
    was running because that changed,
    and different from block flats to block flats,
    or even from house to house.
    And even further, our people were downstairs and Germans
    were upstairs, or vice versa.
    So the line couldn't be drawn exactly where
    was a German territory or German occupied territory
    and where were the insurgents.
    But one of these mornings, not having much to do,
    I decided to go and find out what
    happened to uncle, to two aunts and granny because that's
    where I left them.
    When I approached the area--
    incidentally, I was about, oh, 1/2 a mile from the quarters
    where I was stationed to the house right across town.
    When I got within, say, 600, 700 yards,
    I found that that was the edge where the Polish units were
    stationed.
    And they told me then that if you go any further,
    it's either nobody or Germans.
    So I managed to cross one of the streets on the surface.
    There were no channels between.
    And then upon reaching at the side,
    I found that population already fled--
    Polish population fled from that area.
    And that would indicate to me that possibly in my uncle's home
    was also empty.
    But I learned also that cellars between the block of houses
    in which my uncle lived and that point where I found myself
    at the time were interconnected already.
    So going through cellars, I got to the house.
    And, in fact, I had to cross quite a large yard.
    And what, in fact, hit me in the first instance
    was an entire silence, was nothing happening,
    no shooting, nobody sort of walking about,
    nobody to be seen.
    And I went upstairs to the flat or to where
    the living quarters were.
    I found doors open.
    In fact, all doors were open, main doors and kitchen entry
    doors.
    There was nobody there.
    But it looked as people left suddenly leaving everything
    behind because I saw breakfast still lying on the table.
    I don't think I took anything from there.
    But I left note on the table on a piece of paper
    saying that I have been there and gave a date.
    And I think that was 5th or 6th of August.
    Much later, I found that on the second night of uprising Germans
    entered the house and took all people
    from the whole block of houses in that area,
    took people as hostages.
    And they took them to Gestapo headquarters,
    which was so-called [NON-ENGLISH]..
    That was the headquarters for Gestapo, and not very far
    in fact, within a quarter of a mile,
    from where my uncle used to live.
    Well, perhaps I come later to this story.
    But leaving that place, it was very sad for me
    because not knowing what happened to family, not knowing
    if I come down to the yard again maybe
    Germans down there already.
    So I was quite prepared to little fight with them.
    [LAUGHS]
    Did you have any arms?
    I had my rifle with me.
    And I made point even to sleep with it.
    So, so far, I was quite sort of well guarded.
    After this escapade, after checking
    that my family wasn't there--
    in fact, in this part of town, there
    were very few people I knew, although I managed
    to make contact with one or two people
    my uncle knew and established that they
    were well, comparatively well.
    I mean alive.
    And this was only because that part of town
    wasn't under German fire yet.
    That came much later.
    I think about two weeks of this rather uneventful life,
    I asked my commanding officer for transfer to the front line.
    My reason was that here I sit, do nothing.
    I have a rifle.
    I could be used for somewhere else.
    I think he was quite understanding in this respect.
    And he said, OK, I think there's an action
    to be taken soon quite near here.
    And I'll make sure that you take part in it.
    So with quite a relief, in fact, I
    went through the area, which assigned to me,
    met friends with the other people in the other detachment.
    And, in fact, the object of the so-called action
    was to take over one of the telephone exchanges in Warsaw.
    This telephone exchange was manned
    by Germans and the German post office personnel.
    And during the first hours of uprising,
    a considerable number of Germans who found themselves
    at that instant in the area of this telephone exchange
    found a sort of rescue there.
    And, in fact, the building was surrounded by Polish uprising
    soldiers-- uprising, yes.
    And Germans neither they could leave this building nor help--
    could not reach them from outside.
    In fact, there were, I would say, at least a quarter
    mile within our lines.
    Well, my duty then was to--
    in fact, two types.
    One was to keep guard, an eye on the entrance,
    on the main entrance of this building, by sort of--
    in fact, we made a hole at about third or fourth floor
    in the side of the building.
    I think two or three bricks were moved.
    And through this hole, we could see what
    was happening in that area.
    And there, I think I spent hours and hours lying there
    with my rifle, watching any movements.
    And from time to time, I had a shot at.
    So the Germans knew you were actually
    watching them from that spot?
    Oh, yes.
    Yes.
    And they were shooting at in my direction.
    And from time to time, I had one or two shots at them too,
    though I don't think there were any hits, anyway,
    not on my side.
    Then, we decided to speed up the operation
    and start attacking them.
    To start with, we decided to--
    there was a concrete post just outside the entry
    to this telephone exchange with slits for machine guns.
    And I think two or three Germans were posted the whole time
    guarding the area and approach to the building.
    So the first thing was to blow this up
    by mine or some sort of big box of grenades or something.
    And, in fact, many grenades and many pounds of dynamite
    were wasted because that concrete was so strong we just
    couldn't even move it.
    So next step was to set fire to it, burn them out.
    And, in fact, a makeshift flamethrower was made.
    And paraffin was gathered from whole town mixed with oil.
    And there was a hand pump being pumped like mad.
    [LAUGHS] And when the jet of this mixture--
    petrol-- sorry, paraffin, not petrol,
    paraffin and oil appeared on the end of the long tube,
    a rag dipped in petrol was lit.
    And then this jet of mixture caught fire.
    And we were spraying this building
    with this burning liquid.
    And, in fact, that had a good effect.
    One or two floors in this building were burned out.
    And it terrified Germans.
    [AUDIO OUT]
    Jurek Orwovski, Tape 8.
    And what happened then?
    Well, although we lit a fire once or twice
    within the building, and, in fact, threw several more hand
    grenades, we couldn't force Germans to surrender,
    or neither we could rush them and conquer the building,
    or conquer this post this day.
    Their defenses were, in fact, very, very strong.
    And as we gathered later on, there was around 100 of them
    inside.
    Well, there was only one way to do, just to take time.
    And, in fact, I went back to my little hole in the wall.
    And I had quite a sort of interesting time there
    observing the area, observing how Germans were peeping at us.
    And incidentally, I was told not to waste any more ammunition.
    So there was no more shooting from my side.
    They shot at us from time to time,
    but they also save ammunition.
    But there's one thing, between the vertical wall in which that
    was the hole I was peeping through
    and the German wall of the building where
    they were stationed, there was a yard,
    like a little square and garden.
    And in that garden, there was a white horse, quite big horse,
    I would say quite old one too because either he
    was hungry or very old.
    He hardly moved about.
    And I was wondering whose horse is this, how long he will live.
    And I just wondered who is going to eat him?
    Are the Germans or Poles?
    Because in those days, already in those early stages,
    food was extremely short.
    I remember we used to have a very monotonous diet.
    In fact, three times a day, it was
    soup made from porridge, oats.
    And sometimes we had a tomato thrown into it.
    And incidentally, tomatoes, we have
    to go out to allotments which were under German fire,
    at night.
    And we, in fact, pinched the tomatoes and potatoes
    from there.
    It was quite difficult at night because you wouldn't
    know where to look for it.
    And obviously, impossible to lit a torch or light because you
    immediately caused a fire.
    Anyway this horse lived as long as I was there.
    So eventually, I wasn't sure what happened to it.
    But going along with the story, as I mentioned previously,
    at the hour of uprising, many Germans
    were caught and surprised by this happening
    and not knowing what's happening.
    And they took shelter in this building.
    And, in fact, I think during the first hours of battle,
    a number of wounded Germans, in fact,
    were trying to get to that building, but didn't reach it.
    They died on the way to it.
    So the street in front of the building
    was rather messy with quite a number of bodies lying.
    And, in fact, there was a half truck vehicle,
    or maybe that was a 1,500 weight truck, with the tail board open.
    And one could see that there was a German soldier
    either trying to go on the lorry or trying to get off the lorry.
    But he was killed with his body half
    on the lorry, half hanging out.
    And truck was, I think, burned out, although I'm not sure.
    Perhaps it was only damaged.
    And there was another German lying next to the truck.
    Anyway, these bodies were lying there for,
    what, three weeks, maybe four weeks.
    So you can imagine what sort of state of decomposition and smell
    and all these things.
    It was rather unpleasant.
    Until one night, I was off duty.
    And, in fact, we were expecting that something
    is going to happen because Germans hoisted a yellow flag
    from the building.
    That was a mast.
    It was a radio mast or something.
    I think it was radio mast.
    And from that radio mast, they hang out a hoisted yellow flag.
    And that meant that they were in desperate position.
    And they requested help from German lines.
    There were endeavors-- in fact, Germans
    tried to break through our lines and rescue, or relieve,
    this crew.
    They didn't succeed.
    And it was, in fact, tension growing
    quite rapidly in the area until a particular night.
    As I said, I was not on duty.
    I was woken up by a terrific shooting and explosion of hand
    grenades and so on.
    I went and run out.
    Somebody borrowed my rifle then.
    So I couldn't sort of take part myself.
    But I realized what happened.
    Apparently, Germans decided to break out from the building
    and join their main forces.
    In fact, they didn't succeed.
    They didn't succeed.
    Our post and so-called barricades-- incidentally,
    barricades, that's one of the specific type of defenses
    during the urban uprising or fights.
    You had to cross streets by this barricade
    to stop Germans going along with vehicles and tanks and so on.
    And, in fact, the Germans couldn't
    get through those barricades.
    And many of them were finished.
    And rest of them withdrew back to the building.
    So commanding officer decided that this is the time.
    And we have to go and get them.
    Well, I got my rifle from my colleague
    again, who apologized for taking away without waking me
    up and asking for it.
    And about 60 of us rushed this building.
    And we found no resistance.
    All this obviously was quite noisy
    because we threw several hand grenades.
    The building was covered by a number of machine guns
    then from our side.
    And we just got in, in the building, and found no Germans.
    But as story continues, we start searching and going up and down,
    in the loft, in the cellars.
    And we found them in the cellar.
    I think I was one of the first ones to get in that cellar.
    A colleague of mine who went with me had a torch.
    And it was quite a sight when we went in that cellar, pitch dark,
    obviously no electricity.
    When he switched on the torch, we saw this German faces
    around us.
    But luckily for us, they all had hands up.
    So in this sort of situation, we weren't sure what to do--
    either to rush out and throw a hand grenade at them
    or see if they peaceful enough and come out with us.
    In fact, they did come out with us.
    We told them to come out with their hands up.
    And we put them against the wall, searched them.
    And there was one of the things which I was after--
    the symbol of a good soldier then
    was to have as many revolvers and pistols as possible.
    So apart from my rifle, I think I had about four revolvers
    after that incident in my pockets.
    And Germans, as I said, did not resist.
    They were searched.
    And the names were taken.
    And there was quite a variety of services.
    There were airmen.
    There were policemen, German policemen.
    There were German field policemen.
    There were ordinary soldiers, so-called Wehrmacht.
    And the idea was because we hate police
    so much, that as a rule, police or Gestapo were
    shot on the spot.
    We didn't sort of play with them any longer.
    But in that instance, it was very
    difficult to distinguish because they stripped their uniforms.
    They didn't have jackets, neither caps.
    You couldn't sort of say-- and they didn't admit who they were.
    But I think most of them were very, very anxious.
    And they were almost certain they would be finished off.
    Sort of indicating incident was that one of these chaps,
    after a while, he said--
    oh, we gave them cigarettes then and talked to them and so on.
    And one of the chaps who regained his sort of sense
    of balance or conscious asked if he could go on the side
    and change his trousers.
    [LAUGHS] Yes, so it was a funny incident.
    We all laughed our heads off.
    Did you really give them cigarettes?
    Yes.
    And you treated them sort of humanely?
    Absolutely.
    Would that be the end of that particular incident?
    No, we continued searching the area,
    trying to make sure that no more Germans are hidden.
    We thought that the strength of this unit was about 180 people.
    And we knew that a number of them
    were killed during the night when
    they were trying to break out.
    And I think there was about 28 or 30 which we captured or found
    in the basement of the building.
    And eventually, they were taken away
    to a prison camp within our lines, or within our territory.
    And while continuing the search, I
    got across a further two Germans, who obviously did not
    resist be taken.
    And, in fact, that was the occasion
    when I obtained my camera.
    It was quite good quality camera-- in fact,
    it was called Exakta.
    That's the make, Exakta.
    With quite a length of unexposed film.
    I think there were only a dozen or so film apertures exposed.
    So I had at least 20 or 25 to make.
    He also had one of the, I think, well
    sought after revolvers, P38, which was a 9 millimeter Luger.
    And I took also possession of that.
    Now, another incident happened just outside the building.
    As I mentioned to you before, a number of German bodies
    were lying in the street.
    And, in fact, there was one who was half on the open truck.
    And part of his body was sort of hanging down.
    And one of our colleagues said, well, obviously, these bodies
    will have to be cleared.
    But before they are taken away, I'm going to have his boots.
    And there was a nice pair of jackboots, so-called, you know,
    high boots, practically new.
    Unfortunately, he couldn't take the boots off
    for one simple reason that they were full of rather unpleasant
    matter.
    And while wrangling with this foot,
    he broke off the foot in the knee.
    And because he was putting quite a force on it,
    he flew back on his--
    and, in fact, fell over.
    But the contents of this boot splashed people standing around.
    And now you can imagine how we smelled for days on since you
    couldn't get rid of this smell for days on basically,
    I presume, this very, very strong aroma.
    And secondly, there was such a shortage of water
    that we couldn't even find the water to wash.
    So people sort of wipe their faces a little bit.
    And--
    Could I ask you about the question of prisoners?
    Yes.
    What actually was the policy?
    You mentioned earlier that the Gestapo and police
    were generally shot on the spot, providing
    you could identify them.
    Yes.
    And it was your policy to keep the other prisoners, was it?
    Yes.
    How about feeding them and providing water?
    Oh, well, you see it was an order for the headquarters
    that German prisoners must be treated in accordance
    with Geneva Convention.
    And, in fact, we were told that you could be taken prisoner
    at any time.
    And if you expect to be treated reasonably,
    you have to treat your prisoners reasonably.
    And that was the general approach.
    This brings me to another point.
    Did the Home Army wear uniform?
    Were you easily identified as soldiers of the Home Army?
    No.
    In fact, if you look at the soldiers of Home Army,
    you could think there was a masked ball or some sort
    of gay gathering of people.
    Everybody was in different uniform.
    Well, I wouldn't say uniform--
    dressed differently.
    And I would say to begin with, they were
    all in ordinary civil suits.
    Only recognition was a white and red band on the arm,
    or red and white flash on the cap.
    I started also in my sort of day suit, which very soon was torn
    here and there by scrambling through the tunnels
    and barricades.
    But I was lucky enough to go through wardrobes of a German.
    I think it was a staff officer in one of the buildings which
    we occupied.
    And I acquired his most important parts
    of uniform, namely jacket--
    in fact, that was a camouflage jacket--
    and his field cap, which I converted to a Polish
    looking pickup with the white and red band around it.
    And that was all recognition.
    As the time progressed and more and more German
    stores were taken over, the uniforms
    became mostly German on the recognition,
    as I mentioned, red and white flags or bands around your arms
    and letters AK, which means Armia Krajowa, Home Army.
    And if you were taken prisoner by the Germans,
    you know, even not wearing a full uniform, but just
    this band with AK, were you given prisoner of war status
    by them?
    That came about towards the end of the uprising.
    In the initial weeks of the uprising,
    Germans treated us as--
    well, simply, they called us bandits.
    Yes, I remember you mentioned that in the beginning.
    Yes.
    And many people were shot without any asking, you know,
    without anyone saying.
    It doesn't matter if somebody said, yes, I'm a soldier.
    Perhaps the Germans said, well, you don't look like, and bang.
    But eventually, the Germans had to adhere
    to the Geneva Convention.
    And I think that was a pressure from Allies and Red
    Cross in Geneva where they, in fact, eventually agreed
    to that sort of treatment.
    But if I go back to German prisoners,
    we had quite a number.
    I remember one place which was not very far from the quarters
    where I was stationed, there was a very large cinema.
    And that cinema-- well, I don't know how many seats there
    were, maybe 400, maybe 500.
    And it was full of Germans.
    In fact, every seat was occupied.
    Yes, they didn't have beds.
    They had to sit in the seats, like as you
    see people in the cinema.
    I think there were about 400 or 500 of them.
    There was a German who was in command of other Germans.
    And any communications from our side was through him.
    There was a kitchen organized.
    Polish women were bringing food for them.
    And they were not forced to work.
    They were just kept as ordinary prisoners of war
    would be kept in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
    They were not beaten up.
    They were not pestered.
    Within the building where they, sort of that
    was their territory.
    Incidentally, that cinema was a direct hit by German artillery.
    And I think most of them died there,
    including our guards, one or two of our guides.
    I don't know how many.
    But I remember hearing that a number of our guides
    were also killed.
    And, in fact, I saw two Germans who
    were wounded in that particular incident.
    And there were other--
    the sight of the wounded Germans made quite an impression on me.
    I never saw before people so badly wounded and so badly,
    should I say, deformed by explosion.
    If I could describe pictorially what
    they look like, [PAUSES] they look like two slugs,
    garden slugs, if you put them in sand and roll them in the sand.
    You don't know where is head, where is tail.
    You don't know where is arm or leg.
    And they were both I think-- one lost his legs and so on.
    They were all badly bleeding.
    And because building collapsed on them,
    I think they were rescued from the ruins.
    And they were lying outside, just about being attended
    to by our Red Cross people.
    And obviously, they were wet in blood.
    And then they were rolled in this dust and brick dust
    and so on.
    I couldn't have forgotten them for quite a while
    after that incident.
    I don't know if they lived or not.
    But--
    But they would have been taken care of,
    would they by your Red Cross?
    Oh, they were taken care of definitely.
    In fact, they went on--
    they were taken out the stretcher.
    And they were taken to hospital where our soldiers were lying.
    The population of Warsaw, were they fighting the Germans
    at this stage in the rising, about the third or fourth week?
    Were they helping the Home Army?
    Well, yes, we were population.
    But had the Home Army sort of swelled its ranks, as it were,
    with--
    Enormously.
    Yes, indeed.
    In fact, if you say there were so many soldiers,
    you could say each soldier had at least four
    or five replacements waiting to take his post.
    And people were without arms were a hindrance.
    So those who didn't have arms and wanted to join,
    they were either building the fences,
    or they were digging new tunnels or building or repairing
    barricades.
    They were fighting fires, digging wells.
    And they all thought of themselves
    as being in the Home Army?
    Oh, yes.
    Oh, definitely.
    And would this include women?
    Yes, very much so.
    Yes.
    And what other sections of the population?
    The old people?
    Well, I wouldn't say old people.
    Well, as long as you were fit to do something, you were useful.
    If you weren't, then you have to sort of be either helped
    or looked after.
    And, in fact, blocks of houses who
    were under command of a block commanding person, what we call
    them, this person was responsible for looking
    after those who either were ill or in any way disabled.
    How about children?
    Were they involved at all?
    Sort of older children.
    Well, I would say from 8, 9, 10, they were all useful.
    And what were they useful for?
    Well, they would be, for instance, carrying things.
    I must say here that all these tunnels, which
    were interconnecting city, they were not for sightseeing
    or for pleasure walking.
    They were all very busy.
    And, in fact, it was like a snakes of people
    walking in all directions.
    If you know what the conga dance is, that's what they look like.
    [LAUGHS]
    Could you stand up right?
    Could an adult stand up right in some of them in these tunnels?
    No.
    Well, yes, on some you could.
    But in most tunnels, you have to bend down,
    particularly those which were running on the streets
    where you had, first, variety of services, like water, gas,
    electric cables, and on top surface
    you had tram lines and so on.
    So the thickness of soil which we could use for tunnel
    was quite restricted.
    There were places where you had to more or less sneak through
    or slide through things.
    And if you imagine that there were hundreds and hundreds
    of people, young and old, who were employed in carrying food,
    corn, or ammunition, or anything,
    and you had to go, say, a couple of miles under such conditions,
    by the end, you were really exhausted.
    But everybody was full of enthusiasm.
    Sometimes very amusing things used to happen when,
    say, two convoys carrying things or going in opposite directions
    met in a narrow tunnel.
    And who has priority then?
    Usually, there was quite a discussion
    who is more important.
    And either, those more important or those stronger used to win.

    There is no transcript available for this track

    Jurek Orwovski, tape 11.
    Jurek, what was your opinion at this time,
    this stage in the war, of the ordinary German soldier?
    Because obviously, these were different groups,
    as you pointed out, who were concerned
    with putting down the Warsaw Uprising
    at this particular stage.
    What was your opinion of the ordinary German soldier then?
    I thought that German soldier--
    should I say front soldier--
    was, in fact, a good example for me,
    not knowing anything about British or American soldiers
    at the time.
    And I thought that a German front soldier
    was a model of a fighting man.
    And they-- well, they were well-dressed, well-armed,
    disciplined, and, obviously, they were enemy all the time.
    And I felt rather subdued by that aspect.
    But I had nothing to say about their cruelty, their hatred.
    They were ordinary men.
    And I feel if I was in that uniform,
    I would perhaps behave in the same way.
    Obviously, as I mentioned before,
    there were other nationalities within the German Army.
    And I'm afraid the other nations allied to Germans
    during the war were much more cruel and, I say,
    nasty than Germans themselves.
    And they excelled in this aspect quite a lot.
    To support this opinion, I would perhaps
    give you an example what actually happened
    towards the end of uprising.
    In fact, towards the very end of the uprising,
    when there was a truce between Germans and our command,
    while negotiations for surrender were being carried out--
    I believe that could be about five or six days before the end.
    And we were in a position.
    We realized that negotiations are going on.
    We thought at the time that there
    would be no question of giving it
    up after all these sacrifices, after all these days
    of fighting, and so on.
    And we then quite strongly believe
    that either Russians or Allies will come in.
    I must say that the belief that Western Allies will help
    came about quite strongly by the fact
    that, I think, during the third week,
    before the end of the uprising, we
    had very large supply of weapons and food
    being dropped on Warsaw and Warsaw
    area by a group of American bombers.
    I believe there was more than 100 bombers
    flew from, I believe, Italy over Warsaw.
    And they landed in Russia.
    And on the war-- on the way, they
    dropped the supply at Warsaw.
    Incidentally, most of this supply fell in German hands.
    But that was an act which very much strengthened our morale.
    And we thought, by jove, if they could come here in such a force
    and drop such a lot, next day, will be coming here in brigades
    and battalions of parachuters.
    And at no time, we realize, oh--
    I mean, we thought that Germans would be defeated.
    And if Russians will also try from other side,
    well, victory is just about around the corner.
    At that stage, although we knew that negotiations
    are being carried out, we are still prepared to carry on.
    And this led us to our little escapade.
    And my colleague and I, we were facing a German strongpoint
    across the street--
    in fact, not directly across the street,
    but opposite side of the street, about 100 yards to our left,
    as we're facing them.
    And we decided to come out from our position, go across to them,
    see who they are, what detachment
    they are, how strong they are, how many
    of them, what their weapons were, how they were disposed
    with a view to, when the time comes and we attack again,
    we know exactly where to go.
    And in fact, looking at this today,
    it was quite an extraordinary occurrence.
    We came out with our arms to the middle of the street.
    And I remember seeing German faces in the trenches,
    just keeping their big eyes at us, what are we doing there.
    But there was no shooting, obviously.
    And they observed us quite closely.
    And in fact, I remember one quite big, fat German
    looked quite frightened when we walked out
    casually and towards the middle of the street.
    I put my rifle down.
    And my colleague had a revolver, which he also put it down.
    And then we strolled along towards the German bunker,
    when we noticed there was a German officer just leaning out.
    When he noticed us coming up, approaching him without arms,
    he also walked out from his position.
    We came to each other within, say, two or three yards.
    We said, good morning.
    He said, good morning, which was quite amusing.
    And then more heads popped out.
    And quite a little crowd gathered.
    Obviously, they were with weapons.
    We were without.
    The German asked us how we were.
    And we said, well, we're not hungry.
    And would you like some cigarettes?
    They accepted cigarettes from us.
    It was from my colleague because I never had cigarettes on me.
    I never smoked.
    But he did.
    So he offered some cigarettes.
    Germans said, would you like some coffee?
    We refused it.
    So conversation, in fact, turned to the topic of food,
    while all the time, we were just craning our necks
    and trying to find out where the machine guns were placed,
    where they hiding mortars, and so on.
    And in the end, about quarter of an hour
    later, we said, thank you very much.
    We come back tomorrow.
    We'll perhaps bring you some vodka, we said.
    And they said, well, that'd be very nice if you do that.
    We turn around, walk back to our weapons,
    pick them up from the street, and came back to our positions.
    We immediately sat and drew the sketch how the German defenses
    were laid out.
    And in fact, we were prepared to guard them
    next morning if it was--
    if the order came to.
    <